22-Year-Old Affiliate Spends $100K Per Day on Ads to Become #1 Using AI

So, every single day I do spend at least like three hours on Spy Tools, but my favorite one is, and this is like an insider tip kind [music] of. Everybody here that I met at

[music] of. Everybody here that I met at the affiliate world, they they're all asking me how big is your team? [music]

It's like me and my business partner.

>> Yeah, that's that's cool.

>> Yeah. Like, what? Because the [music] second biggest guy is right now, they have a 100 people. It's like two people versus 100 and we're managing to beat them which is kind of insane to [music]

me. Sometimes your best ad you just put

me. Sometimes your best ad you just put that as the open of the VSSL.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's a classic. Yeah.

classic. Yeah.

>> That works so well. It's kind of incredible how well it works. [music] So

sometimes I'll see an affiliate running and crushing it. I'll just steal their ad and I put them put it as the VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> Open [music] and that crushes always.

Welcome to a crazy episode with Jordan.

Right now, he's the number one affiliate on ClickBank. He has been spending up to

on ClickBank. He has been spending up to 100K per day, generating 240K in his best day. And he's going to reveal you

best day. And he's going to reveal you all his secrets. I mean, almost all of them. How he's publishing 100 ads a day,

them. How he's publishing 100 ads a day, four seven offers at the same time, and testing three new offers per week. So,

we're going to talk about structure, scaling. He's also going to be sharing

scaling. He's also going to be sharing how he went from a 16year-old to a 22y old and number one on ClickBank um and how that went. So yeah, let's get into it. What makes you different from all

it. What makes you different from all the number one ClickBank guys that made you like the number one right now?

>> Well, um it's volume. It's all volume.

Um everybody else, they're running video ads. They're putting out 10 creatives a

ads. They're putting out 10 creatives a day. We have very solid vendor

day. We have very solid vendor relationships, so we can test a lot of offers. So more offer testing volume and

offers. So more offer testing volume and we have proprietary tools that allow us to put out hundreds of creatives a day

with a very small team. So that allows us to beat a 40 person team as some of the other top affiliates have with just two people, just me and my business partner.

>> I think that's the main difference.

We're a very lean team. Uses a lot of automation to really scale.

>> Got it. So you're saying you're pumping out 100 creatives a day >> per offer? RD per offer. How many offers are you running right now or testing?

Okay. And how many are you testing? So

you're like >> maybe three a week.

>> Okay. So you are like pretty much pumping out 100 creatives for 11 offers per week.

>> Yeah.

>> Kind of.

>> No, 100 per day for eight offers.

>> Yeah. But you're also testing three, right? So then

right? So then >> plus three. Yes. Yeah. But for the ones we're testing, we test with like 60 rads or so. We don't push it as much as the

or so. We don't push it as much as the ones we're scaling.

>> Got it. So that you two guys are doing that.

>> What what is like the the balance there?

Like who is doing what? Like how is it divided? What are you guys doing to pump

divided? What are you guys doing to pump out that volume?

>> So we've been very disorganized. We're doing [snorts]

very disorganized. We're doing [snorts] we've been running our business in the past.

>> Mhm.

>> And we've kind of found our balance. I'm

on the testing side and the creative side. My business partner is in the

side. My business partner is in the media buying side. And now we're implementing people under us. So I can go to a conference and you know do high lever tasks and have someone do the daily workflows.

>> Mhm.

>> So the way we're going to structure this team, we got some people that work under me for testing.

>> Yeah.

>> They just follow my SOP and my business partner has people that follow his SOP on the media buying side. So they're the guys in the ads manager scaling and

putting up numbers and so on. Uh, and

I'm just the guy putting up the creatives using automations. We, me and my business partner both have somewhat tech related backgrounds. So, we're able to code our own custom tools that allow

us to pump out all of this volume creatively.

>> You mean you're you're hiring people to do that or you're actually doing that yourself?

>> I I coded the entire thing myself.

>> All right. I mean, let's dissect those two together. Sorry, those two

two together. Sorry, those two separately. Again, if we're going too

separately. Again, if we're going too deep and you don't want to share, that's fine.

>> Yeah. Um but let's get started with what you were doing, right? So you have a whole creative process.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, let's you have say we're focusing on just one offer like you have a whole process from ideiation to like the final piece and are you still like

doing the ideation or can you walk me through like your creative process right now from like A to Z pretty much?

>> So usually I'll start an offer with three campaigns. So, I'm testing it out

three campaigns. So, I'm testing it out and that one of the campaigns I have a workflow inside my tool where I provide other people's ads and

it makes my own unique versions that are inspired. So, that's going to be 20 ads

inspired. So, that's going to be 20 ads in one campaign >> with those types of ads. Um, and then I will have another campaign and this works stupidly well and it's a really

good tip for anyone that even if they don't have tools, they can do this very easily. These images are just a red

easily. These images are just a red square with yellow text on it. And a

mutual friend of ours was laughing because I became a top affiliate just running these images to his offer. But

that allows me to test hooks very easily and like messaging.

>> Yeah.

>> Initially, if that makes sense. Then the

third one is just the baseline workflow of our tool. It's just AI images. We

provide the VSSL script generates images using a like a long process with a bunch of AI models to fix text and make sure they're good.

>> Yeah.

>> And then we can just launch them one click and it automatically launches them on Facebook with our primary text and headline and all that stuff.

>> So we run [snorts] these three um I'll find two or three ads that work off of those if the offer is good. Mhm.

>> So then I'll take those three ads and I'll create um [ __ ] campaign where each adset has those three ads and different primary texts. So I'm trying to split

primary texts. So I'm trying to split test that.

>> You mean like the first three sentences for people who are a little bit less uh into Yeah.

>> Or the whole primary text is different or just above the fold?

>> So actually I do that in two steps.

First I do above the fold. Then the next test is below the fold.

>> Mhm. So, I separate that. First, I find the best hook, then the best follow-up.

Um, now I'll test about 10 of each. So,

>> uh, that gives me my best primary text.

I don't split test headlines. I don't

think it matters very much to be honest.

Um, and afterwards, we split test landing pages.

>> Mhm.

>> So, we might try a bridge page, a listical page. So, bridge page is very

listical page. So, bridge page is very simple, right? Splash page some people

simple, right? Splash page some people call it.

>> Yeah. Pretty much with >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. just a headline, an

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. just a headline, an image and a button and maybe some text around the button. It's a very simple

short form list. So, say I'm selling um neuropathy uh offer. The listical will be top five at home remedies for

neuropathy and number one uh would be put your feet in water with salt. Number

two would be drink uh more tea. and we

just list them out. And the last one, the number one is the VSSL. So try this ear trick for neuropathic relief.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's another variation. We also

test a quiz. So I might take a quiz um funnel that I see someone else running or I'm going to do my own where the structure is ask them about the problem, you know, get them in that like problem state.

>> Yeah. Then get them in the solution state in the sense that you ask them how would your life change if um you got rid of the problem. And finally there's the

result which is like the how. So in the how you say okay based on your answers we've determined that we can uh this can help you the best solution for you watch the video.

>> So that's the other landing page format.

Then we do advertorials long form. So,

one scientific, one that looks like scientific looks like um say researchers at MIT uh figure out the real root cause

of of neuropathy.

>> It may surprise you, I think.

>> Um and it's like a long form article about the mechanism and so on. This gets

very qualified clicks but low clickthrough rate. And in some offers,

clickthrough rate. And in some offers, this works very well and others not really.

>> Yeah. And the last style we test um is a granny blog I call it.

>> So it's like a personal story, you know.

>> Okay.

>> It looks like a blog that belongs to like some grandma that >> Yeah. You know, she lost weight or

>> Yeah. You know, she lost weight or >> she she was in a wheelchair, now she can walk again.

>> This sort of a story that's very emotional. It looks very raw. Like

emotional. It looks very raw. Like

[snorts] people tend to trust that more, but also because it's long. guess a

lower click click through to the VSSL.

So after we figure that out, we just do variations of the winner and we have a feedback system in the AI tool where we tell it look these did well, these did

not. Um it can analyze why some

not. Um it can analyze why some creatives did well and generate a lot more images based on those couple of images. So it's almost like you're

images. So it's almost like you're searching for signal. You know, you're trying to separate signal from the noise and tap into more signal.

That's how I think about it. You're

drilling for gold and you find the area, then you keep drilling in that uh area to find more gold. That's how our creative process works.

>> I mean, there's a lot to uncover there.

So, just if we go back to the to the start, like you start with the, for example, the hooks, right, on the the image with the red borders.

>> I assume [snorts] you keep doing that, right? So, it's like it starts adding on

right? So, it's like it starts adding on each other. First you start with like

each other. First you start with like the hooks, then you have that hook and you keep testing new hooks and images, but then you have that hook and you start with the the above default. And

then when that one starts working, you start splitting that out. So it becomes this huge tree of like unlimited growth almost that just keeps >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> All right. branching out. That's the

word I was looking for. Now,

how do you like and maybe the answer is hard and boring tool, but how do you manage like this feedback loop where it's like, okay, we tested this ad, it's hitting KPI, right? [snorts] That's I'm

feeding that back. Okay, this one is like really below below KPI, so this one's scaling. Like, how do you keep

one's scaling. Like, how do you keep like have create an overview? Is like

are you using ClickUp? Are you using sheets or is this also all in the tools?

because every branch makes the you know the variables like multiply by a lot like what's the >> Yeah. So we actually have a the tool the

>> Yeah. So we actually have a the tool the creative tool integrates >> with uh Facebook >> Mhm.

>> or Facebook ad accounts so it can pull up the best performers with one click.

It does the analysis.

>> Yeah.

>> What has the best row? What's above KPI?

What's below KPI? when we create a campaign, we still haven't implemented this, but we're going to be giving custom KPIs per campaign >> because now we're running some recurring uh apps and stuff. So

>> there we're looking to break even in the future. We're looking for like a 6.

future. We're looking for like a 6.

>> Yeah, >> that's a different KPI than a ClickBank offer where we want a 1.5 for example.

>> Yeah.

>> ROS. So uh the that makes it a lot easier because you can just click one button and see what's good.

>> Yeah. and then just uh drag it over to the variations tool where you can make new ones. Um, also it makes it easier

new ones. Um, also it makes it easier because we we can add budgets. We use

the budget scheduling feature a lot.

>> Okay.

>> On Facebook. So that's some kind of secret sauce.

>> With like budget scheduling, you mean like certain times and certain days and that kind of stuff.

>> So every single day all of our campaigns have a base budget of 2,000. So

>> 2,000 is the base budget. We might have like 100 campaigns running but um on that base budget we just add more budget on good days [snorts]

with budget scheduling. So we'll see which campaign performs in the morning and in the evening which is the best time for neutral for us.

>> Yeah, >> we schedule budget.

>> Yeah, >> that is one of the best ways to scale in my opinion. Got

my opinion. Got >> it. I mean, we're going to talk more

>> it. I mean, we're going to talk more about like media buying and scaling because I still want to go back to what you just said like >> so the tool was also pulling like the funnel like let's say maybe you have

like one ad let's call out monkey one and that's connected with scientific advtorial and then there's also monkey one ad going to uh grandma story page your tools also pulling that combination

of like ad with uh funnel and then creating different variations based on okay this was monkey one with the scientific story so we create different ads for those and different ads for the

personal story or do you just all merge it and just [snorts] like spam basically just like you just grab everything and you just let it rip pretty much.

>> Well, I don't do that anymore. I used to go like drill [clears throat] deep and try to find which advertorial works for which specific ad.

>> Yeah.

>> But it just added so much complexity to my process and the juice I got out of it was minimal.

>> Yeah. Usually one particular advertorial will perform better on almost anything, one particular landing page.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's been a huge unlock for me because it simplifies things.

>> Yeah.

>> So I can just spam that one advertorial with a bunch of images. So I look at uh landing page data in aggregate, not in isolation with a particular image.

>> Yeah. Got it. And also if you have different landing pages that are working, I guess most of the time like one of them takes like whatever 70 to 90% of the spend >> then you might have like that other

grandma story and then you just launch the same ads from the let's say scientific editorial which is taking 90% of the spend also in the grandma story and only if the grandma story starts like you know getting more spent then

you might start thinking hm okay can I create some specific ads for that page or >> so we actually um in all of the uh landing pages.

>> Yeah.

>> We don't like put them in as separate campaigns.

>> Mhm.

>> So we just split the traffic using our tracker to different landing pages. So

each of the clicks are randomly distributed to landing pages.

>> So when we find one that works, we just have it do all the spend to that one.

>> Got it. And so like maybe you start out with like 50/50 and when you have a winner, you're just like splitting like 80 20% of traffic to new pages and you just keep rotating in new >> pages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll do

>> pages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll do more variations of the winner.

>> Okay.

>> I'll split like 10% of the traffic, testing new headline, >> testing new image, and if it seems to be holding, >> then I'll split it 50/50.

>> Yeah. [snorts]

>> So, I can get the data in a day and know which one is the winner.

>> Yeah. And you have your own tools for that.

>> Uh, no. I use Red Track. I use generic tool for it. I did do my own tracker at one point and that didn't go well. Uh,

it blew up at one point and I lost a bunch of money. So, I was like, >> I mean, like if you figure out your own tracker, you're up there with Alex Becker and stuff. So, it's kind [laughter] like I'm not saying you're not up there. I'm just saying like that

that's hard. Like that's

that's hard. Like that's >> Yeah. No, it's very very difficult. Very

>> Yeah. No, it's very very difficult. Very

difficult.

>> Yeah. Got it. So, I I think that's also which I see like a lot of people miss are like the landing pages. It's just

like ads. And that's where if you would give like would that be like the number one advice for an an beginner affiliate that's making profit but can scale to

like also go deeper into landing pages?

>> Um to be honest I most of my career as an affiliate.

>> Mhm.

>> I did not split test enough.

>> Mhm.

>> On the lander side and that's been a big unlock for me recently. So yes,

>> I would say it's very important >> second to a lot of ads.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> you gota Facebook loves a lot of ads.

>> Yeah, with Andromeda update and stuff.

>> Yeah, especially Yes. I was about to say that the Android update um you just have a some ads in a big CBO, right? They

take very little spend, but they get these cheap sales every couple of days.

It's like infinite rows and it'll put them in like a scaling campaign. Doesn't

scale.

>> Yeah. But a lot of these ads running at low volume, high OS prints money. It's

like kind of incredible how well it's figured out which ad resonates with which customer avatar.

>> It's truly like it's a bit of an incredible >> witness. Yeah.

>> witness. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's like all these little segments within the market, it finds little pockets and then >> Yeah. It's insane.

>> Yeah. It's insane.

>> Shares there. Okay. That's that's cool.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's funny like I always say like it's most time when you have a marketing problem which is also what you mentioned like you're looking for a good offer because everything starts with the offer and if the offer is good then it's easy to have a title right >> of course

>> like if you're the first person who's like hey I have a trading bot you don't have to trade yourself and everybody's teaching like how to trade manually eight hours a day of course people are in it right but if there's like five of those it's like okay now you need to add

AI or whatever but yeah [snorts] it's a funny thing now you you I mean you mentioned a lot about tools like what is your setup there in terms of like are you using like multiple uh models like

cloth, chat, GPT, mainus like and I guess maybe it's also like for a different step you have a different AI or like what's like I understand again you're not going to reveal the secrets but maybe we can talk about the

principles and the structure of how you came up with this and like developed it.

>> Yeah. So 100%.

Uh the way that the tool is built it makes image prompts from a bunch of different models. So the best ones for

different models. So the best ones for me are Claude and Gemini for this.

Gemini seems to give some really good >> prompts which surprised me after the last update. Before it was bad, but now

last update. Before it was bad, but now it's going very aggressive with the images which to us that's a good thing, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Um to Facebook policy and Google themselves probably not. But that's a different story. Um but yeah, it's

different story. Um but yeah, it's gotten very good at that. So we that kind of gives you diversity of the creative because sometimes it has a slightly different way of thinking

almost see it as a different person >> when these AI models.

>> So it gives you more diversity more options of hitting a signal >> with the ads. So uh we have the prompts from different models and then we use different models to generate the

prompts. So all the promps will send

prompts. So all the promps will send them to Dolly and then fix the text with image GPT, send them to im to imagine by Google and send them to image GPT

straight up. Also now there's nano

straight up. Also now there's nano banana by Google which is pretty insane.

>> Yeah, >> that's one we're testing out. So yes,

it's just a lot of models and sometimes we get the models to give each other feedback.

>> Yeah, >> which is really good. We have a feature for that. We don't really use it all the

for that. We don't really use it all the time, but when starting a campaign, it's a really useful one to have Claude analyze Gemini creatives and vice versa.

>> Yeah. So, to make it a bit more like visual/practical, let's say you're running an offer, whatever weight loss, you found another offer that's working really well. You

feed all that data into the AIS. Then

you ask it to generate a couple of I mean, of course, like text, but also like image IDs, prompts for an image.

And you asked that from Gemini uh whatever chat GPT all the all the guys and girls and then those prompts you feed in the image and multiple image creation tools >> and I mean that's then it starts kind of

stacking up already like with how many and that's just images and you can do the same for text and then you can also send send back the image and be like hey create text with this image and then you have built so that's kind of like I

guess for you it's not an agent but for someone who has not that much experience with like coding and so forth it's you have kind of like an agent that's doing all this work for you step by step feeding it back%

>> it does most of my work so this is the main reason everybody here that I've met with the affiliate world they they're all asking me how big is your team because they they we all spy on each other they know what I'm running

>> they've seen my ads >> like man how big is your team it's like me and my business partner >> yeah that's that's cool >> yeah they're like what because the second biggest guys right now they have

a hundred people working for them.

They're guys out of India.

>> Mhm.

>> So, it's like two people versus a hundred and we're managing to beat them, which is kind of insane to me. I think

this is we live in like a really interesting time with AI where the ones that who can capitalize on it first and use it to really multiply our output.

>> Yeah.

>> Is the people who are going to win long term at this point.

>> Yeah. because I can have a 10 person team and out compete a thousand person team just by using AI.

>> Yeah. And the crazy part is like if you hire people from whatever country they quit, you need to train them again.

Doesn't happen to AI%, >> right? And also like it's quite hard.

>> right? And also like it's quite hard.

That's what that's one of the things that I feel with copyrightiting where it's like it's quite hard to keep giving yourself feedback and just improving those little small things because it's kind of boring, right?

>> It is. Yeah. It's like oh should I you know add an extra mechanism here or no or should I remove that or should I tweak [snorts] the mechanism a little bit it's like which can have a huge

effect right um so yeah I never thought about it yeah it becomes like it becomes really like a system like self self-sustaining system that's that's crazy are you like I guess this is going

to be a [ __ ] question because you're so deep into it I wanted to ask you like how you know from who did you learn all this stuff or like are are there still people like in the AI face that you are following to learn from or is it at this

point you're just like in there in the trenches just doing it yourself?

>> Yeah, I mean I'm on Twitter a bunch.

>> That's where I learned a lot of AI stuff from.

>> Mhm.

>> My business partner is deeper into AI than I am.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm more like the marketing nerd that figures out how to use the stuff he finds >> to make killer creatives and copy and stuff.

>> Yeah.

>> But he's the one that's like knows all the models. He's on Twitter all the time

the models. He's on Twitter all the time watching YouTube videos, Fire Ship, all these channels like free ones. Regarding

actual like people that we follow, there is one person we do follow. I cannot

remember his name, but he's like a big ecom guy out of Miami and we were just hanging out with him at the conference and he showed me some really cool cool stuff that he did on top of what we

built.

>> Mhm.

>> Which I thought was [snorts] pretty crazy.

how well that um is performing for him as well because he saw some of my stuff and then his own versions and just all of us that kind of know each other.

We're evolving each other's tools.

>> Yeah.

>> Trying to beat each other and it's kind of leveling up the game in general.

>> Yeah, that's fun. Now, this was really a lot about iteration and systems. Are you doing anything to come up with like really unique different big

ideas or is that not necessary or is that already part of the game or like what's is there a different process for that?

>> Yeah. So

I I do because I have a creative edge in me.

>> Mhm.

>> I'm a copyriter by like background. So I

still do it. I still write a lot of my primary texts and stuff.

>> Mhm.

>> Cuz I enjoy it. I enjoy doing it. So

>> I Beat your own AI.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can

usually beat it on copy.

>> Mhm.

>> Or with images. No.

>> No way.

>> Um with the actual copy, I will come up with an idea and I'll feed it to the AI and then it's going to come up with images. So, but even with copy nowadays,

images. So, but even with copy nowadays, I don't know how you guys do it, but for us and for a lot of people I know, we kind of just became like copy chiefs

where the guy writes the copy and just tweak it.

you modify it, you make it better. So

even that side seems to be becoming more about the big idea and the actual implementation of the big idea >> you can do very easily with AI nowadays.

>> Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So you're still doing that but do you also have like for me I always kind of look at like what I said like there's [snorts] like offer right then there's like the offer most of the time has some kind of unique mechanism within that unique mechanism there's

multiple bigger ids.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. age and then without those ids [snorts] you find certain concepts or ad ids which are kind of based on the mechanism and or big ID but are a little thing of their own. So do you also have

like workflows that do that like that for example scrape testimonials and then look for IDs there like just like I understand all your answers but I'm not

sure like if if if if I ask my question properly.

Is that do you also have a system for that like to find new ideas that have not been really used by anybody?

>> Um >> or does it just happen organically?

>> It just happens organically but I do have a system in terms of the AI breaking down big ideas from the VSSL script. Yeah.

script. Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> So the thing is this is a little tip for anyone trying to do what I'm doing with the tools.

>> Mhm.

>> Um AI hallucinates a lot when you give it too much information.

>> Yeah. So with my system, I uh compress it down to like five to seven main bullet points.

>> Mhm.

>> That then the rest of the process drives ideas from you know.

>> Yeah.

>> So the first step is I call it fragments really. So that's an explanation of the

really. So that's an explanation of the mechanism. Who's the target demo? What's

mechanism. Who's the target demo? What's

their nightmare scenario?

um what's their ideal state?

>> Yeah, >> it's like I think it's eight of them and then I just feed the rest of the process just those pieces of information.

>> Mhm.

>> Versus feeding in the entire VSSL VSSL script and those fragments are where the ideas come from. So for example, in the Nerf pain market um no in the memory

loss market, the big fear, the big nightmare scenario is that they're going to end up in a senior home. that's what

they're afraid of. So the ads say uh one of the ads that I came up with which was a unique angle no one was running uh was

um my grandma my grandma was in a senior home but now she we finally got her back.

>> It's like a brand new angle. No one's

using it. And so yeah, we when it comes to me personally doing ideas, sometimes the best ideas come from something outside the VSSL.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that was my point. Yeah. Or

like where I was going. Yeah.

>> Yeah. That that was a realization I had.

The ad doesn't have to be congruent.

Sometimes my ad has a completely different mechanism than the actual VSSL. So, for example, we're running a

VSSL. So, for example, we're running a vision of her and I just remember there's a story in the Bible where like Jesus heals some blind guy with spit and

I was thinking, huh, what if we framed the story as like there was a hidden page in the Bible that got lost where the spit was metaphorical and that angle crushed, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> This was the recipe, the page got lost.

That's >> like a very unique idea that's not connected to the VSSL, but it's just so captivating to people that they cannot click away. They cannot look away. They

click away. They cannot look away. They

got to click it. They got to read more, you know?

>> Yeah. I mean, that's where I was going at because I like you are the number one. So, you cannot like just model

one. So, you cannot like just model everything that everybody else is doing or that's in the VSSL because that gets you only so far. So, that's what I was thinking like you are looking for IDs that are maybe not in the VSSL that are

again branches of what's happening in the VSL. very [snorts] valid point.

the VSL. very [snorts] valid point.

Well, I think another big shift I'm seeing in the space and this was another reason why I got as big as it did in the past couple in the past couple months was

because um we do our own VSSLs now. So, we don't run the VSSL of the vendor on ClickBank.

>> We make our own.

>> Yeah, that was my follow-up question actually, but go ahead.

>> Yeah, so uh yes, you're right. If if I run the vendor VSSL, sometimes I can scale.

>> Mhm.

>> But the offer will die quicker because other people are running the same thing.

All of us are splitting the pie.

>> Yeah.

>> But if I take their VSL, do my own opening. Then I try to beat their body.

opening. Then I try to beat their body.

Then I try to beat their clothes. I try

to beat different things, I can usually get that victory, so to speak, like um beat some part of the

VSSL, the headline, the whatever it is.

>> Yeah. And that allows me to beat other affiliates because I'm the one that I'm the only one running the VSSL. If someone else try to

tries to copy it, I just put a copyright strike on their VSSL and they cannot run anymore.

So like for example with the um elderly home example, if I hear what you're saying, I'm like what I would do is like I would grab the original VSSL and maybe switch out the intro and do like some

kind of horror story of somebody. Oh,

you probably did that, you know. Um,

>> I did.

>> So, so you start like creating your own VSSLs and that's actually another level, right? Because before you mentioned you

right? Because before you mentioned you use editorials, [snorts] listicals, all that kind of stuff and then you send it to the VSSL, but now you're also grabbing the VSSL and

redoing it. And are you running the VSSL

redoing it. And are you running the VSSL on your own domains? And

>> that also kind of gives you, I guess, some more safety power and also more privacy somehow.

Yeah, privacy is big in the space because people love to rip.

>> Yeah, exactly.

>> I don't like people knowing what offer I'm running to and I don't like them knowing what VSSL my landing page is.

>> Yeah.

>> So, we cloak.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, how do we cloak? Secret. But, um

there is a couple of tricks that we use to keep ourselves hidden.

>> Yeah.

>> First of all, when you run a lot of ads, people don't know what to rip. There's

like a thousand ads. Which ones do you steal? You cannot steal all of them.

steal? You cannot steal all of them.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They should be able to do that, but they they are too lazy.

>> Uh the other thing, if you click on my ad from Facebook ad library, it's going to take you to a page. So, it's not going to be a safe page. It's not going to be like top 10

uh tips, some like Harvard blog or something.

>> Yeah.

>> It's going to be an actual like hardcore direct response page.

>> Mhm.

>> That's going to an actual offer that's at the top of ClickBank.

>> Mhm. But that's not what what I'm running. I'm running a different offer.

running. I'm running a different offer.

I'm just using a redirect chain to send people finding me on ad library to a to the wrong destination.

>> I guess some information is being transferred into the URL if they come from ad library and you can do something with that.

>> Yeah, >> that's some next level [ __ ] That's cool, man. So, so going back to like

cool, man. So, so going back to like you're doing your own do you sometimes rewrite the hole for yourself? So, if

you start beating the hook, then you go for the body, then you go for the close.

Sometimes I cannot beat the hook. But

another tip which is pretty good, sometimes your best ad you just put that as the open of the VSSL.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that's a classic. Yeah.

classic. Yeah.

>> That works so well. It's kind of incredible how well it works. So

sometimes I'll see an affiliate running and crushing it. I'll just steal their ad and I put them put it as the VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> Open and that crushes always.

>> And then but can you also then copyright strike them? Um,

strike them? Um, not that I would do it, but yeah, I guess you could if you like trademark the VSSL.

>> Yeah. So, so how are you? This is like super random, but like how are you doing that, right? You you create the VSSL,

that, right? You you create the VSSL, you launch it, and if somebody rips it, then you can >> can uh What do you do there? Like, how

does that work?

>> Um, there is some trademark services in Germany that I use.

>> I don't remember the name, but basically, you put a trademark on the VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> Assuming it's not like some black hat stuff. If you do like a normal VSSL,

stuff. If you do like a normal VSSL, >> Yeah. You can just trademark the VSSL

>> Yeah. You can just trademark the VSSL and it works. You know, if they copyright strike, you just send the hosting platform, yo, look, I have the document. It's my VSSL.

document. It's my VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> And they got to take it down.

>> And but the original like ClickBank VSSL writer doesn't copyright it. Trademark

it.

>> Well, no, because the original VSSL writer, I'm friends with them usually and and I'm running to their offer.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, say I'm running some weight loss supplement.

>> Mhm.

>> I will always know the vendor.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'll tell them what I'm doing. I'm

not like stealing from them. I'm being

very transparent. Look, I think I can beat your VSSL. Do you mind if I run to a uh to like a like checkout page directly, right?

>> So, I can build my own landing page and that's my own VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think this is the future. All of

the top affiliates in now, they're all doing their own VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, that introduces some complexity.

You need an editor. You need all this stuff.

>> That's where the money is at, right? The

complexity.

>> I I hate managing teams, but yeah, unfortunately, yes, it is where the money is.

>> Yeah. I always like it when people say like, yeah, you know, uh comp, you know, easy skills. It's like yeah to a certain

easy skills. It's like yeah to a certain level it's like it's just your definition of scale but like most guys that I see scale it or if I see that where something works well the solutions always like okay create other landing

pages create more ads like like I love the new AI avatars now so we can test different demographics and then you know okay I don't know if I want to say the the the the demographics on the podcast but you see okay this is working so now

I'm going to get an actor or new UC graater with someone that looks like the AI avatar. Yeah.

AI avatar. Yeah.

>> So let's leave and not get into the race thing here. Um, but um, so yeah, that's

thing here. Um, but um, so yeah, that's that's uh, are you also using AI avatars and stuff?

>> I did my first couple million on ClickBank using AI avatars. Yeah.

>> But I don't run videos anymore. So

>> I don't really anymore.

>> It's not worth the squeeze. Like if to run videos. So for you, it's just images

run videos. So for you, it's just images and text. It's like if you do video, you

and text. It's like if you do video, you can get some extra ads spent on revenue in, but it's not worth in terms of complexity and effort and scale. What

are you shooting there? Well,

I scaled a lot with videos.

>> Mhm.

>> But I just find that after the latest update on Facebook, images just work better.

>> The rorowaz is higher, scales, more >> more stable, more consistent.

>> So that's why I only focus on images now. And I've gotten very good at

now. And I've gotten very good at running images.

So that's why that's my primary focus.

Now, I know some guys doing well with videos, but usually the AI spokesperson is like Elon Musk or something, and it's just not the game I want to play.

>> Yeah, that's it's a bit tricky. Now,

there's also other people in a more like high ticket space who are saying like, hey, videos crush because of, you know, quality of the leads and all that stuff.

So, do you think that it sounds like I'm just making an assumption here that you're kind of going after a little bit older demographics, meaning like 35, 45

up, that those people resonate a little bit more with like images and and text and that that works better.

>> We run high ticket, right? So, we have the publishing side of things.

>> Yeah.

>> And on that side, we only run videos.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

>> Yeah. It's the only thing that gets the good customers.

>> Yeah. But when you run like pink salt trick to lose weight like that's an image creative typically resonates with that market. But yes, you're completely

market. But yes, you're completely correct. When you go for the younger

correct. When you go for the younger market and the more sophisticated market, they need more of an explanation.

>> Yeah.

>> Less curiosity. So yes, their only videos perform for us.

>> Got it. Got it. Okay, cool. Now I think we really got the system down. Yeah. I

want to dive a little bit deeper in what you're doing with the funnels because that's something that I don't hear many people talk about >> and and especially like my audience and me myself

uh the biggest I don't know as much about affiliates as the top affiliates um but there's a lot of people talking about advtorials um and the list of goals and all that

stuff and I'm curious like how you look at the whole like [snorts] advtorial vssl like structure/puzzle pieces like

Do you like always start ideally with your own VSSL or running traffic straight to a VSSL and then to scale you start adding advtorials? Is it the other way around? Like how do you look at

way around? Like how do you look at that? Let's let's just assume that

that? Let's let's just assume that we're, you know, pumping out 100 ads a day. Where are we going to send them?

day. Where are we going to send them?

Advtorial, VSSL, does that depend per niche? Uh does that change when you

niche? Uh does that change when you start scaling? Does my question make

start scaling? Does my question make sense?

>> Uh yes. So I'll usually start with the vendor's VSSL.

>> Mhm. and start testing with like those simple splash page >> templates.

Then I'll start adding more stuff and >> once I get a baseline that's where I'll start doing my own opens.

>> So the only case in which I actually do video ads is when I'm trying to test them out so I can see which one performs the best on the VSSL itself.

>> Yeah.

>> Because that's faster. But yes, I usually start with the vendor one. very

simple and then I add more complexity.

So once I'm at scale I also add like pop under. So pop under is going to be um

under. So pop under is going to be um you know say say they click the VSSL on the page.

>> Mhm.

>> Know how like on porn sites person scrolls and like something pops up underneath in a new tab.

>> Yeah. And then it opens up some random.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like that but in the background.

>> Yeah.

>> So maybe they finish watching the VSSL they cannot afford the price point.

um they close down the tab and they end up at the other VSSL, the other offer.

So, the person that introduced us actually I'm running an offer that he owns.

>> Mhm.

>> And um I was running an offer at 200,000 a day, the same niche.

>> Mhm.

>> But his is digital. I the one I was running was um a supplement.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I just put his offer as a poper.

>> Mhm. And when someone closes the the browser, maybe they don't buy the supplement, they end up with on his page. His mind was blown. We're doing

page. His mind was blown. We're doing

like a couple thousand a day >> and basically free traffic.

>> So, I tried to add these additional monetization flows.

>> Yeah, >> this is common in the affiliate space, but not so much in the ClickBank side of things.

>> This something that the porn guys like really dialed in, which is where I get a lot of my ideas from.

>> Yeah. Looking at the porn advertisers, those guys are crazy as capturing click value.

>> Got it. All right. So I I that that sequence makes sense from affiliate perspective. Now, have you seen like

perspective. Now, have you seen like advvertorials, listical ever work for more like high ticket and publishing offers or is it

most time better there to do VSL or still straight to sales page? Um,

honestly, I haven't tested as much, but we did have an advertorial that performed comparably >> Yeah.

>> to running straight to the VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> On the It's a real estate program.

>> And the performance was very close. So,

um, right now we're running straight to VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> For simplicity sake. But [snorts] when we were running um both it was similar.

So that tells me there might be something there but we just maybe haven't found it yet.

So we need to do more testing to >> figure it out.

>> Yeah, that's what I feel like. I'm like

if if I just feel like it you get cheaper clicks, right? It's like hey free article or listical or whatever.

But then the question is will the quality be there to still like sell high ticket? Now you are selling a that's a

ticket? Now you are selling a that's a high ticket, right? that real estate offer.

>> It's 300 bucks on the front end.

>> Okay. It's more like a mid. Yeah.

>> Yeah. The back end is like 5 to 10,000.

>> Yeah.

>> Depending on the plan they choose.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's a very But we need to break even on the front end.

>> Mhm.

>> Because the cost of goods sold on the back end is pretty high for us.

>> Mhm.

>> The program we have is like really really good, really comprehensive. So

we need to make we need to break even in the front end with those mid tickets.

That's why that's there >> but we have done a straight to book a call as well and the quality was a big issue with that for us in general.

>> Yeah.

>> So I always like having some sort of a lower mid ticket.

>> Yeah, that was my followup. So you

always do like low mid ticket and then high ticket. So there's guys crushing it

high ticket. So there's guys crushing it like that as well to immediately that's why I was that's why I wanted to go with like the advtorials because I was like if you're like optimizing for leads right by putting a test advtorial in

between like it's hard to kind of like decide what the quality is but if if you would put an editorial in between you would still optimize for purchases I assume.

>> Yeah.

>> Not yet. Okay.

>> Got it. And how's that with this is just me like asking a noob question. How's

that with like when you're running affiliate stuff? Like do you like I

affiliate stuff? Like do you like I guess you know a lot of people. Are you

always sending the sales back from affiliates to the algorithm or are you just optimizing for like if it's a bridge page or a splash page you call it for button clicks?

>> Always uh sales. [snorts]

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz for example um I'm running a nerve of now and >> one of the the grandma Victoria actually >> Yeah.

>> the one that was no wheelchair and then she stood up.

>> Yeah. Um, that one the l the landing page clickthrough rate was really bad.

Like no one was clicking through. Uh,

but it had a 10% conversion rate in the VSSL.

>> Yeah.

>> So that became the winner. And I just did some tweaks and got the clickthrough rate up. The conversion rate obviously

rate up. The conversion rate obviously went down a little bit, but the landing page improved. So

page improved. So >> yeah, >> I only look at purchases even with uh ads. I don't care about CPC, all this

ads. I don't care about CPC, all this stuff.

>> Exactly. I ran an analysis on my data with AI. I exported my entire data. I

with AI. I exported my entire data. I

wanted to see is there any correlations um when when an ad does over 100 sales.

Is there like a CPC correlation? Is

there a CTR correlation? And there was none.

>> Yeah.

>> CPMs were the only thing that was slightly correlated where high CPMs were performing worse.

>> Yeah. I think that's just because if the CPM's high, Facebook doesn't like the image.

>> Yeah.

>> Or the text or whatever it is.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That I also have experienced that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because I

that. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because I

still see like some people teaching like just like optimize for like button and I'm like man button click right through the VSSL. And I'm like I'm like that

the VSSL. And I'm like I'm like that cannot be efficient. Like

>> no man.

>> So I think none of the top affiliates is doing it right. They're all like optimizing for purchases, sending that data back.

>> [snorts] >> Initiate checkouts are something that I look at a lot.

>> I got this from Jason Katasi. He's a

massive affiliate as well. Now he's in the agency space and after my last interview, he offered to open a call with me and share some info. And the

best piece of advice I got from that is to look at initiate checkouts.

>> Mhm.

>> So funny enough, I looked at the correlations. Yes, there is a very high

correlations. Yes, there is a very high correlation between cost per initiate checkout and um whether the ad becomes a winner.

>> Yeah.

>> So, seems like that's the >> more um Yeah. Like the the closest point that you can optimize for.

>> Yeah.

>> Such that you don't have to get a purchase to optimize on. So

>> yeah, >> I found I don't know what you find on the checkout pages, but on ClickBank in particular, usually it's like 25% or so.

>> So that makes my data four times cheaper than optimizing for purchases.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So you run sometimes campaigners campaigns for any HI checkout as well?

>> No, I I run campaigns for purchases, but I look at the initiate checkout data that I meant like my own personal optimization.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you have to feed back faster and you have to wait less long.

Yeah. [snorts] Yeah, that's the same as like if you don't spend that much money on uh a VSSL funnel and you look at the cost per call, but you don't know because there's only one call a day and just look at cost per lead to make

decisions a little bit uh faster and easier.

>> Got it. And now specifically for your affiliate stuff, are you also like getting like emails there and implementing email marketing or is that something that's not really

>> I did I did. So when I do my own VSSL, the way I would run it, um, at the end of the VSSL where there's the button, I would just put like an email forms. They have to fill it in to go to the check out page.

>> Made very little difference uh towards the overall conversion rate, but it was good because I was collecting emails.

>> Yeah.

>> But um I couldn't get my emails to deliver like it's just a very complex thing, email marketing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> So it's just not what I'm good at. So, I

decided not to do it. Instead, I'm

collecting push notification subscriptions.

So, on the page, like a popup, yeah, >> this page would like to send you push notifications, yes or no. And people

will will subscribe. And I'll just send them uh push notifications for other offers breaking.

>> You have to see this XYZ just happened.

Click here. And they watch another VSSL.

>> Gotcha. Okay, that makes sense. Now we

specifically talked about Facebook ads for now or at least I mentioned that word and here you are Facebook Meta.

>> Are you also running like uh YouTube and uh display and like what other like what what are like your top three channels right now? Or maybe you just do meta and

right now? Or maybe you just do meta and you just use affiliates or like partners for the other ones.

>> So I'm trying to think of what the top three are, but I'm not sure. might I I mean if you want to give me a list of 10 that's fine.

>> Meta Meta is the number one usually Meta is like right now number one.

>> Yeah.

>> Lifetime I think YouTube is number one for me. Um the thing is YouTube got very

for me. Um the thing is YouTube got very hard for me in the past couple of months.

>> It has always been hard and it didn't get easier. Now [laughter]

get easier. Now [laughter] >> something [snorts] happened where none of my ads get approved. a bunch of accounts go down even when I'm when I'm running like textbook clean like lead

generation or >> e-commerce products even that [snorts] gets banned.

>> So I really don't know what the deal is with Google but we've been moving it aside.

>> A very big channel for us which if you asked me this last year I would not have mentioned it but right now everyone seems to know about it is Newsbreak.

>> Newsreak. Yes, he told me about that. So

yeah, >> that's where we started.

>> Mhm.

>> On use break. Um it was very cheap. So

Click was like 5 cents and we I told a bunch of my friends about it and they jumped on and then other people started running did an official partnership with ClickBank. So now it's just flooded with

ClickBank. So now it's just flooded with [snorts] like the ClickBank guys. So, it's

probably still good for like publishers and e-commer I mean e-commerce maybe less but like there's it's still interesting for non-affiliates because people are not on it as much in those spaces or I don't think so

>> as a publisher I haven't had success.

>> Okay.

>> Seems to be uh traffic source or very mass market.

>> Yeah. Okay. But make money online is or weight loss.

>> Yeah. Weight loss. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Weight loss legit. Yeah. You could make it work easy. Um, but when the price point is high, like the real estate thing, no way we're going to get that working because like we're targeting real estate agents and >> Yeah.

>> Uh, people flipping houses and people who are already deep in the space. We

don't want some beginner.

>> Yeah.

>> Knows nothing.

>> Yeah. So, for beginner offers, it might be still.

>> It's a good It's a good one. Trading.

Yeah. Works [snorts]

on.

>> But, so you also you also did YouTube and I after the podcast, I might have a guy that I can connect you with maybe already know him that might have some good Google reps for you. Yeah,

>> but you you are also in the past doing YouTube.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. But now just not >> that was my biggest traffic source.

>> Yeah. I mean I always loved YouTube, but it's getting more of a pain in the ass than Facebook and it was the other way around before.

>> Yeah. I mean own Facebook. I haven't

lost an account in months.

>> Mhm.

>> I got one of my profiles like locked or whatever, but that was like 200 bucks to fix like easy.

>> 200 bucks, man. I'm paying $2,000 for that. [laughter]

that. [laughter] >> For the profiles?

>> Oh, to get it unblocked? Yeah. Yeah.

>> Wow. Jesus Christ. I need to connect to the guy, man.

>> Thank you.

>> It's easy. Um but not like um I haven't I haven't lost accounts. I can actually share a secret for how we got to our own agency accounts internally. So our own

company became a certified meta partner.

>> And I have a process that's I think very unique for that.

>> Mhm. Um, Google, it was great. Like you

would get an add-up, you millions of views, spend a bunch of money every day, consistent, good rorowaz, rarely would it break. Rarely would something happen.

it break. Rarely would something happen.

>> Yeah.

>> But then it's just like nothing works. I

don't know how to fix it. Tried a lot of stuff and I only know one guy that's crushing YouTube.

>> He's got a 40 person operation farming accounts all day, launching on like a thousand um a thousand different ads across accounts.

>> Crazy. Yeah.

>> Every single day. But that's like a huge black hat operation. So I'm not really interested in copying that. So I don't know how to make YouTube work.

>> Got it. H that's interesting. Yeah. When

I like got started with my own agency, I [snorts] was one of the first guys in the Netherlands who started offering YouTube ads.

>> Yeah.

>> To publishers, course creators, and all that stuff. And that was really my edge.

that stuff. And that was really my edge.

And then still I feel in the US like most people are don't have the patient or the balls to spend money on like YouTube and figure out. I still love it and if it works it's yeah amazing it's stable for me most time it scales

further than Facebook but that is probably after talking to you because of volume like for me like I am now at this point like video first so I make everything so it can work on YouTube and

most of the time also a part of that works on Facebook but if I hear you with your images and stuff I think I can definitely get some more volume in there so that's [snorts] >> that's um >> that would be good >> that's interesting okay so you're not

doing YouTube did you do display >> banner >> display ads any of that.

>> Tabula, I did ref content years ago >> and [snorts] made some good money on there. Rumble is something I'm testing

there. Rumble is something I'm testing out. Not really working right now, but

out. Not really working right now, but last year did a survival offer which >> uh was pretty big on Max Webb that popped off on Rumble. Still super cheap.

>> Yeah.

>> Um that was this play.

Now we we uh getting coaching from the biggest native affiliates.

>> Mhm.

>> We we paid them money to help us get native on because we have this guy. He

was such a good media buyer for Google but he cannot make it work and it's not his fault and I just wanted to offer him an alternative path that he can help us with.

>> Yeah.

>> I think the best way is to get him to master native.

>> Mhm.

>> And get him to be the head of that so we can make a bunch of money for us and for himself. I think that's

himself. I think that's >> it's an interesting thing with talent in this industry, you know. Um I feel like everything's so volatile. One month you

make a bunch of money, the next month you might you might make no money. So

it's kind of hard to that's why I'm so allergic to having like a large team, you know, and yeah, I hate the idea of just hiring people and letting them go

to keep the goal slow. So that's why we're so focused on trying to keep the expenditure of the company and the team small and lean.

>> Yeah.

>> So we can pivot if we need to.

>> And you give them like a base fee plus uh performance or something >> when it's a media bar. Yes. So I like to

pay people at well that work well, right? Uh so really is the performance

right? Uh so really is the performance part is where most of the people make good money. Mhm.

good money. Mhm.

>> This Google guy was getting 30% and he got no base fee.

>> Yeah.

>> And while Google was good, it was a great partnership for us because he unlocked an additional traffic source which we weren't able to do internally.

So, I'm looking to do more of that, get more people on different traffic sources that specialize and pay them all, you know.

>> Got it. Yeah. Then if it stops working, he has to look for another job or you have to start paying him a salary. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, that's why we I like to provide my team with support like >> invest in them scaling up. So, uh I

invested in some coaching programs so you can learn native ads and pivot very efficiently.

>> Yeah, interesting. Before we go into like coaching, mentoring, everything that we can still talk about, yeah, in terms of learning and offers, I would [snorts] love to go back uh to you know,

tie the knot on that subject.

>> Now, you also mentioned that you have a system for uploading so many ads, right?

Because you're testing 100 ads a day for seven offers, sometimes 11 if you are testing three at that same day. So, what

what's the setup there? Like, we

probably don't want to bore people with like all the small nitty-gritty details, but what's the setup? How are you? How

are you doing it? Or you just have a VA who's like just pushing buttons like >> No, no, it's automatic from the API.

Um I don't know the details because my business partner built that part of the setup.

>> Yeah.

>> But I know you need like to get an app on Meta approved.

>> So you create like an app inside Meta >> as a meta development tools feature and uh they need to approve it which is usually pretty easy. Then you just connect it to the profile.

>> Yeah. and you can launch through the profile. Now the problem is sometime the

profile. Now the problem is sometime the profile gets locked.

[snorts] This is annoying but yeah I don't know the exact technical details of how he implemented that. I know it took him like a good month to figure it out >> but now it works and there's no almost no human labor involved.

>> Zero. Yeah.

>> Zero.

>> Zero labor. And our entire process you can just in five minutes you can have 100 ads up easy.

>> Got And are you also like with all those AI system there's also like a check for compliance Facebook compliance? [snorts]

>> No compliance doesn't exist for me.

>> Okay.

>> So we have the agency account.

>> Yeah.

>> And all of them have by default because we've shown Meta that we are not running crazy stuff.

There is exemption tax in each account.

>> Yeah.

>> And we're not even paying for those.

Like literally they give it to us for free.

>> Yeah. So we just get our exemption tags placed.

>> Yeah.

>> On all the accounts. Meta compliance

doesn't really affect us unless it's something really crazy which we don't really run >> like in the image generation process as a part of the prompt. There is some

compliance instructions in terms of what shouldn't be said. So I cannot >> no violence and stuff like for example >> Yeah. No violence, no nudity,

>> Yeah. No violence, no nudity, >> guns, drugs.

>> Guns, drugs. Yeah. uh pills even yeah names of diseases.

>> I mean so you have a compliancy checklist kind of like it's just it's not as strict as people who are just starting their own account spending 50 bucks a day.

>> Yeah. But it's not like it's checking images after the fact.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's just in the generation portion. I

noticed that sometimes it does like close-ups of uh like hands or stuff like that and Meta doesn't like it. So that's

like the main item that we need to eliminate.

>> Say again. like close close-ups of like skin or a person's hand or just body parts or person's feet or something and Meta doesn't like that because >> I don't know why they have like some

weird policies just raises my CPMs a bunch.

>> Yeah. Okay. And and like from what level of spend do you think you can get like introduced to those kind of agency accounts or those kind of things like >> I don't know how much it was. I think it

was not that much. It was like three million bucks >> per year.

>> Yeah.

Um, but [clears throat] the way there's a bit of a secret sauce source to it. So there's I know I'm sure you've seen these. There's these like meta marketing pros that pop up.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Book calls and it's usually >> dumb [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. To spend more money on >> Yeah. [snorts] Well, they get paid per

>> Yeah. [snorts] Well, they get paid per minute on the phone with you.

>> That's how they get paid. So, we used to have this guy that worked for us. He

recently actually moved to an agency that offered him a higher pay, but he was a good he was a good media buyer for us. But he loved talking. He was the

us. But he loved talking. He was the type of guy you can like sit down with him and he's going to talk to you for 5 hours.

>> So every single week we had him jump on with these meta marketing pros.

>> Yeah.

>> And we taught him to say, "How come I never thought of that?" You know, the meta marketing pro gives some stupid advice, some dumb [ __ ] >> Yeah.

>> But this [snorts] guy would say, "Oh, I never thought of that. That's so smart.

I need to try this. I'm going to let you know how it goes next week. You waste

[snorts] hours with this like meta marketing pro. The meta marketing pro

marketing pro. The meta marketing pro loves him because he's getting paid. So

like social engineering your way to a good relationship with them.

>> Yeah. So eventually they put some higher tier reps for you in place and that works out great because then you can

slowly build the trust, ask for one exemption tag, two exemption tags and eventually they just give you like a goal and the goal is like uh spend XYZ

this year by the end of the year and you're going to uh become an official Meta Marketing partner.

>> Yeah. And once you do that, it's so easy to run Facebook. Accounts are stable.

Nothing gets banned. Approvals aren't an issue. You can bulk launch. Like

issue. You can bulk launch. Like

honestly, it's one of the biggest edges that we have, I think.

>> Yeah.

>> In the game because it takes a lot of time to do this. It's like months of jumping on with these meta reps and >> Yeah. And also, you need to spend three

>> Yeah. And also, you need to spend three million a year.

>> I mean, that's not that difficult to do, I don't think. But I mean consistently for some guys that's >> Yeah. The thing is I feel like

>> Yeah. The thing is I feel like I hear a lot of questions from people like uh how do they make 10K a month as an affiliate? I'm like [laughter]

an affiliate? I'm like [laughter] that's not possible. I don't know any affiliates making 10K a month. If you

find a campaign that works, you're going to make a lot more than 10K a month. If

you don't find a campaign that works, you're losing money. So there's no like in between, you know. So if you're making it work, >> 3 million a year is really not that difficult. Like the people I know that

difficult. Like the people I know that do well, they crush it.

>> Yeah.

>> People that I know that don't do well, they don't do anything. So

>> they lose money. Yeah. [laughter]

>> Yeah. There's no really in between. It's

just like rich and poor in this case.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, interesting.

That's that's that's crazy. So is that's with like then one of your companies that's like connected to Meta has like a whole agreement kind of thing. We have

two of them actually now as of this month we have two of them connected >> as official marketing partners of Meta.

>> So one of them is like uh it used to belong to my business partner.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh he was doing ecom on there. He did

this years ago for ecom and the affiliate one also became a meta partner this month. So like two days ago

this month. So like two days ago literally. So yeah, we want to get like

literally. So yeah, we want to get like maybe one more up because >> it just becomes such a mode. We can lose one of these BMs and still still be an

official Meta partner, you know.

>> Yeah. But do you also like you mentioned that like to unblock your personal Facebook account? You had like a guy. Do

Facebook account? You had like a guy. Do

you also have guys then or can the agency unblock your business manager and your ad accounts?

>> Well, we use a lot of fake profiles frankly to manage ads. Yeah,

>> because then if it gets blocked, we can usually swap it out and so yeah, those get locked >> regardless. Yeah. So for that, we have

>> regardless. Yeah. So for that, we have to pay to get them back to an insider because it's such an obvious fake profile.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So we've just been paying this insider that does it for us and um >> That's great.

>> Yeah. It's a guy that has a bunch of stuff. So he's a very good friend. Gives

stuff. So he's a very good friend. Gives

me huge discounts.

>> Yeah. I was thinking like 200 bucks, man. That's like that's a steal.

man. That's like that's a steal.

[snorts] >> Yeah. I think it was like 250.

>> Yeah. I think it was like 250.

>> Yeah. Still a steal, you know. Anything

below a K, I'm like that's a steal, you know.

>> Yeah. I mean, even with spy services [snorts] is Gordon so competitive. So many

providers offer it.

>> Mhm.

>> That now it's like 500 bucks or something to look inside a person's ad account.

>> That's crazy.

>> I love doing that.

>> That's what that's why you're doing all day or like it's a part of your day.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Do do you ever find something like new, different or creative in ad account or like in the last 12 months, have you ever spied on anybody and they're like, "Oh, damn. I didn't think about it." Or,

"Oh, damn. I didn't think about it." Or,

"Oh, that's a really different or unique way of doing things."

>> Yeah. So,

actually, before I was friends with Nagai, >> Mhm.

>> the person introduced us.

>> Mhm.

>> I was spying on his ad account.

>> Mhm. And I found a couple [snorts] creative formats that were working well for him that no one was running, no one else.

>> Yeah.

>> And I transferred them to Lead Gen >> that relief. So every single day I do spend at least like 3 hours on Spy Tools. Not when I'm traveling, but like

Tools. Not when I'm traveling, but like when I'm in the office, I spend at least 3 hours, preferably before bed, spying.

So everyone's at home watching movies.

I'm like on Spy Tools.

>> And then you sleep and your subconscious starts working.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, that's really true actually. If you do something

true actually. If you do something before bed, it's like your subconscious is kind of crunching on it.

>> Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know.

>> It's kind of crazy. You wake up with all these ideas.

>> And what are your favorite spy tools as an affiliate and publisher?

>> Um, I like Spy Hero a lot.

>> Lately, it's been getting pretty good.

Ad Spy has been interesting as well. I'm

not using it as much because they seem to have stopped adding um ads to it.

>> Mhm.

>> But my favorite one is Okay, so there's two things I like doing. One of them is just like a residential proxy and just scrolling on the feed as an actual consumer

>> in the US most I assume. Yeah.

>> And that works super well. That's where

I find the best stuff.

>> Mhm. And the other one, and this is like an insider tip kind of, there's these like review YouTube channels that review products as affiliates.

>> Yeah.

>> So, they're posting a lot of reviews about some product. It means that product is in demand.

>> Yeah.

>> And that means that offer is um is doing well. It's scaling.

well. It's scaling.

>> Yeah. Because people start YouTubing it and then they check the videos. That's

that's a good sign or a bad sign.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

Well, there is also these like scam busting like coffee style channels >> and I follow a bunch of them because they always cover this guy did this shady thing. I'm like, "Oh, can I do

shady thing. I'm like, "Oh, can I do that shady thing as well? Less shady,

but still do it, you know."

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Can I use a similar VSSL or whatever and it's interesting because they put the product name in the in the [snorts] title. Yeah. So that

tells you based on the number of views um is this getting search volume?

>> Yeah.

>> You know, so it's a very good indicator of scale.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you do?

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's like that's when that's when you know like if you're in the publishing game like when like YouTube videos start popping up like is this a scam or like is this a review of this or like exposed then [snorts] you

know like and you should probably also check your Google search results and make sure Trust Pilot is there and >> all the stuff is on point. Yeah.

>> I mean there in the coaching space there's that guy what's the name like eay or something makes videos and everyone and >> um always promoting his own stuff. He's

like, "Is uh Alex Becker a scam?" Goes

like, >> "Yeah, >> XYZ."

>> XYZ." >> Uh, yes, Alex Becker is a scam, but you know what isn't a scam? My course. Click

below. And for everybody, it's like that guy is the coaching equivalent of the affiliate review channels. Literally.

>> Yeah, that's interesting.

>> Cool. I mean, I think we really covered like how you run ads and media buying and funnels or is there anything we missed? Did I miss asking you a question

missed? Did I miss asking you a question that's important?

>> I think that like Facebook structure is also pretty important like how we how we structure campaigns.

>> Mhm.

>> Simple. It's surprisingly simple. We

just use bitcaps.

>> Mhm.

>> On everything >> on scale like when you're scaling like or you >> Yeah. So we launch all new ads and bid

>> Yeah. So we launch all new ads and bid caps every day.

>> So there it self-regulate [snorts] spend.

>> We split test bids initially.

>> So when we test, we run max conversion.

Then we split test bids.

>> Yeah.

>> Everything becomes a bit cap. I think

that's a pretty interesting thing that most people aren't doing.

>> Yeah.

>> Especially in the affiliate space.

>> But yeah, besides that, like I covered my entire process basically. So, I think a second interview more valuable than the first in terms of technical details.

For sure.

>> I mean, we're not done yet, by the way.

I still have time. If you're not burned out, then we'll keep going because I would love to dive a little bit deeper like how you are learning and and like the network you're in. That's why I was asking like, okay, did I miss anything

interesting and sexy for media buying?

with 10 bit caps, I guess. And now we now like your whole process is exposed.

>> Yeah.

>> Without, you know, he's cloaking, so he can probably not find him if you're not a a smart cookie.

>> Um, so yeah, you you you are like crushing it. Um, but you're also still

crushing it. Um, but you're also still like learning a lot. Like you're hiring these these mentors. Like [snorts]

before we go into like what you're exactly doing, I'm just curious like how you feel as a you are I'm calling you a European because you you live, you know, in Europe. Like do you feel like that

in Europe. Like do you feel like that being in Europe is a is a disadvantage or do you feel like I'm not connected enough to the US or I wish I would be more in the US? How do you feel about that?

>> I don't know anybody in the US besides like two or three guys. They're really

crushing it.

>> Mhm. [clears throat and cough] >> I don't think there's any advantage to being in the US. If you get taxed like a [ __ ] you get you live in a broken society. Like I see zero benefit

broken society. Like I see zero benefit to moving to the US.

>> Yeah.

>> But something [clears throat] like Dubai or these other hot spots where a lot of people are at, that's where I would like to be. That's the disadvantage. Like I

to be. That's the disadvantage. Like I

I'm probably going to end up moving to Dubai full-time.

>> Mhm.

>> In the next year.

>> Yeah. Because the most value I've gotten, the most learning I've gotten is not at courses or like speeches or presentations.

>> Yeah.

>> It's chatting with people, right? Like

I'll be at the event like chatting to some guy >> that dressed like a normal guy. Doesn't

have an Instagram page. Like I don't even have an Instagram page. And

>> yeah, >> uh he's just telling me like, "Yeah, you know, we do about 300,000 a day. We run

some um some lead genen." But I think that the secret was that we put um the web the landing page to look like it's a Yahoo page.

>> We did the logo in a similar fashion so people assume affiliation >> associated. And that's a great tip,

>> associated. And that's a great tip, right? [snorts]

right? [snorts] >> Yeah.

>> So these are the people I want to be around the people who are actually doing the thing.

>> Yeah.

>> And these uh low tax hotspots for me is not an issue. My tax rate is 10%. I'm

not >> worried about that. But for where the other people from the US are congregating, that's where I want to be.

>> Yeah.

>> Because that's where the best knowledge is shared.

>> Like Dubai, Bangkok.

>> Bangkok. Dubai. I don't like Thailand very much, but >> yeah, >> Dubai definitely a really nice place.

>> Yeah, I love it. I love it there. It's

it's it's great. So, actually, that's funny. So, like again, like I'm not that

funny. So, like again, like I'm not that much in the affiliate space. I meet

people like and I mean for me Z is not even an affiliate, right? It's like

>> the guy who introduced us, I call him Z because I'm afraid to pronounce his name.

>> And I always call him like I always call him Z. So even like with my wife or with

him Z. So even like with my wife or with my my partner, I'm call him Z.

>> So um >> ah [ __ ] what I where do I want to go with that? Is he Yeah. So even like Z I

with that? Is he Yeah. So even like Z I don't really see as an affiliate because he's most of the time like kind of doing his own stuff. Although he's he's for me he's like a hybrid publisher, drop shipper,

>> uh branded drop shipper. Yeah. Yeah. So

I don't [snorts] know that much about affiliates, but it sounds like yeah, most of the affiliates are then more like actually in Europe and in Asia and the Arabic countries.

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> Because what I feel with the publishing side, I feel that's really like you have all the Miami guys, the Miami bros, the then you have New York. There's there's

a lot of guys doing real serious number.

Is is your real estate and trading guy in the in the US?

>> Yeah, he's in Chicago.

>> Yeah, you see that that's so I guess like affiliate is more like >> Yeah. outside of US and then like the

>> Yeah. outside of US and then like the the publishers like the people are selling coaching courses softares are really in the US.

>> Yeah. I just

>> you know I see the Miami like kids making courses and >> selling and flexing and I don't know I just I have no interest [snorts] in networking with those people where

their main business is flexing on social media.

>> Yeah. Like being influencers. So, yes,

they do make a lot of money.

I'm not gonna like go into names, but >> yeah, >> those guys I see Z actually sends me their applications for copyrightiting.

They're learning from some guy in Miami with it's like 19 years old teach.

>> Yes.

>> He he is teaching copy that I know in Miami. Yeah.

Miami. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some guy. And um not only him, there's some other guys as well, but I'm seeing their applications of the students and they're so bad, right?

>> Yeah. But I mean, let's I I will say it without calling out any names and so we don't have to be uncomfortable about this. Most people who are teaching how

this. Most people who are teaching how to start an agency or copyrightiting might be really good themselves, but the people that actually buy, they don't even try. So it's like better to hire

even try. So it's like better to hire somebody who doesn't got taught by a guru because they are actually interested in it and I have like maybe corporate experience than it is to hire someone who's >> like from

>> I think it's a function of how they market a lot of times.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Where um they're marketing to children.

>> Y >> teaching them that oh don't go to university do this.

>> Yeah. I don't know. I just it's a space that I'm not really super interested in like getting to know those people.

>> Yeah.

>> I want to know you. I want to know the person who's behind the scenes actually managing >> the the guru, actually doing the work and making the whole thing work.

>> Yeah.

>> Because these people on social media, they're they are good at making videos.

>> Yeah.

>> But there's always always there's somebody behind the scenes that's pulling the strings. as the actual owner of that business that actually controls it, you know.

>> Yeah. Or they're lucky like I don't know if you saw that Alex Becker video about don't start a personal brand.

>> Yeah.

>> And he talked about right that you ride that wave and then you need to like push harder and harder and harder and then it will just because you're not new anymore, you will kind of go down and you see them in that cycle and they're

just extracting as much money as possible from that audience. So what I want to say with that's like either somebody's like putting the strings or it's like kind of luck where they write this wave because they kind of cracked

the social media code. They don't really know why and they don't have operations and infrastructure and all that stuff.

They don't really build anything and then it just >> crashes after that period of time in culture is over. Yeah.

>> That's [snorts] why as a publisher you have so many faces that you can put on.

You can just swap them.

>> Yeah.

>> One dies go on to the next one and >> can build a massive company like that.

Um, some of the biggest publishers have like tens of faces on the same niche, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Teaching slightly different things and one dies, the next one's up. That's how

you build a real business.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's although I'm to be honest, like that's one of the big questions I have that I I've not really seen or heard answered like because for example, I'm um I'm running a trading offer in the Netherlands and we have

been like I I won't share the numbers here. we'll share it off topic running

here. we'll share it off topic running serious spend for that country and we've been doing that for years and it just it just keeps going. So I also believe that as long as you keep like reinventing the mechanism and all that stuff you can

still keep it up >> but to your point this is where I'm also like evolving it now we launched a female face a female trader.

>> Oh yeah >> and now we're like I'm like I might be able to double ad spend or at least raise it with another 50% just on by putting on that influencer. So, I'm not saying don't do that, but um yeah, that's where I'm really yeah curious to

see in upcoming years whether I will be someone who can really keep people like running for like 5 years, 10 years because I think I can, but we'll see about that.

>> Yeah, I think [snorts] like um have you seen the Awesome Real Estate people?

>> Awesomely.

>> Which one?

>> Um Awesomely. Awesome Real Estate.

>> Ah, it doesn't ring a bell right now.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. They're massive publisher in the US.

>> Mhm. And what they do is their back end is just get access to all the courses.

>> Just put a bunch of different faces with slightly different mechanisms. >> Yeah.

>> In the back end they the high ticket is just get access to all of them.

>> Yeah.

>> So I think it's a really brilliant model what you're doing with getting the female face in. However, do a slightly different course and get some other demographic let's say to do their own.

>> Yeah.

>> I know Netherlands is a bit smaller than like the US so probably cannot go as big as them. Yeah,

as them. Yeah, >> but it could be interesting if you can build like an ecosystem or a subscription based almost like Mind Valley for real estate or trading or whatever it is, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> One options guy, one one swing trading guy, day trading [snorts] guy.

>> I mean, I think you can go like Yeah. I

mean, that's where I'm like like I do still think there's a lot of opportunity in the info space. If the only thing is like if you want to go big, that's my vision. Exactly what you said, but like

vision. Exactly what you said, but like even more segmented like you know the tree that you built with creatives. It's

like >> I think like if you have a Yeah. a day

trader like you can literally copy the same marketing >> Yeah.

>> to a female and then if you if you prove the female you can go like with different skin tones, different ages, right? And then I think that already on

right? And then I think that already on its own is like quite a big big uh amount of revenue that you can do. And

then of course you have all the different trading ways or the different mechanisms for trading >> multiplies [snorts] exponentially, right?

>> Yeah. So and you're always using that's that's one of the things that I really like and it's it seems like you are kind of doing that because you have a coding background. I always like to leverage my

background. I always like to leverage my previous skills or experience in another thing that I do. So I'm not going to take on like for example now like if let's say we are talking right you're doing some some something in the health

space like I would not start myself in the health space like she did that. I

respect it a lot. I would be like, "Hey man, like it seems like you have some issues with YouTube. What about like I start running some YouTube ads for you, right? Because I know, okay, I have the

right? Because I know, okay, I have the YouTube skill. You already have like the

YouTube skill. You already have like the messaging skill and the VSSL skill." I'm

like, "Okay, now there's only one piece of the puzzle that I need to figure out, which is putting your proven concepts in video creative and getting it approved."

Or that's like two pie puzzle pieces.

I'm confident, but I don't want to like have to figure out 10 to 20 puzzle pieces.

>> Exactly.

>> That's how you start, by the way. But

like if you're at a certain level, you don't have to do that I think anymore.

>> Yeah. Like I I was also looking at things longterm on myself like so I needed a business that does that does cash flow.

>> Mhm.

>> Makes me cash so I can reinvest in other stuff.

>> Mhm.

>> So I was thinking of what do I choose? I

can go affiliate route, ecom route. Um

ecom is a bit tougher operationally needs more >> money but >> ecom route, affiliate route, agency route. and different things. Then I was

route. and different things. Then I was thinking, okay, when picking, I should see what's like my ultimate end goal.

Ultimate end goal is to exit a company for a really large amount by the time I'm 25.

>> Mhm.

>> So um that means that I need a certain set of skills. What kind of company would I

of skills. What kind of company would I need to exit? It would need to be some sort of a most likely some software kind of thing because I don't like dealing with logistics. I was like, "Okay, what

with logistics. I was like, "Okay, what skills do I need besides the coding?

It's like buying media marketing XYZ."

So, I was like, "Okay, I'm making a decision. The affiliate side is the is

decision. The affiliate side is the is going to give me most of the skills that I need."

>> Yeah.

>> In addition to giving me the cash flow.

That's where I chose to go in the affiliate route, not in the uh agency route, for example. Also, I I hate the agency route in general because if I had

to deal with a client every day, that would be hard. That would be pain.

>> Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah, that

makes So, so that's your plan. Like

what's normally we would go into your story and all your mentors now, but we're here. So, I'm just curious like so

we're here. So, I'm just curious like so what's what you mentioned your goals you want to exit.

>> Yeah. like what's the amount that you want to exit and then you're going to just retire or like start doing some uh wine farm in Italy. What's the what's the what's what's your vision/ plan?

>> So I want to do 60 million between me and my business partner.

>> Mhm.

>> So that leaves us with 30 each.

>> Yeah.

>> Add that to my stock portfolio. It's

more than a million a year, right? I'm

not that big of a spender. So

>> yeah, >> can easily survive off of a million a year.

>> Yeah. And um

yeah, that's the amount I think is very doable now with the recurring apps we're working on. So

that's started as more of a passion project, but it looks very promising economics wise because the rebuilds are really where it's at nowadays, you know.

Yeah, >> it's getting harder and harder to extract a bunch of money from people up front and it's kind of like you need to get a long LTV.

>> Yeah.

>> In order to make money because as you see more and more often companies are are going negative on the first sale, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So, it's like who's got the best long-term economics and there is very few things that do it like recurring apps where it's 100% margin and so on.

>> Yeah. Got it. So, how did you get into this app thing? And the overarching question or like the over the bigger question is like how are you kind of like finding these opportunities, right?

Affiliates, it's it's it's clear you go to the events, you know, all the writers. So, that's just there. But like

writers. So, that's just there. But like

when you're talking about an app or publishing real estate or the trading offer, like how are you like getting finding these these deals and opportunities?

Um, with the apps I just spied and saw some people running, Lithuanians running nine multiple nine figures and

subscriptions per year on fitness apps, hypnosis apps, um, quit smoking, quit vaping, uh, sleep better, all these apps.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Well, no one's doing memory. I'm

going to do the memory niche.

>> Mhm. brain games for memory because one of my best angles was try the Sudoku trick to improve your memory. So I'm

going to take that angle and [snorts] apply it build it myself. I know how to code. So it wasn't difficult.

code. So it wasn't difficult.

>> It's also easy nowadays, right? With all

these like AI lovable apps and stuff like that.

>> I'm doing the front end with AI, the back end custom.

>> So the front end one prompt and >> it's good and so good. It's one shot, one kill. M

one kill. M >> one prompt gives you the full app.

>> That's crazy.

>> Yeah, it's very crazy.

>> And what about like the real estate deal? How did you like

deal? How did you like >> um [snorts] >> real estate coaching?

>> So yeah, I partnered with a publishing company last year because it in terms of income, it's a very small percentage of my income.

>> Yeah.

>> But I really like the guys that were working on that.

>> Yeah.

>> I learned a lot from uh them in the past. So I just saw it as an opportunity

past. So I just saw it as an opportunity to work with some mentors of mine from the past.

>> Yeah.

>> Who are really really smart and really good at what they do.

>> So that's why I took that opportunity. I

just reached out to them like, "Hey, I'm interested in doing this."

>> Yeah.

>> You guys are. And they said, "Yeah, let's do it." So we ended up doing a partnership that's been very >> It's been a very fun project for me, let's say.

>> Yeah.

So you're also spying like at least 5 to 10 minutes a day on that niche or is that like >> I [snorts] have people that do it. I

don't really work on it as much. We have

a team there >> a bigger team so that's more light work for me. It's like a couple hours a week.

for me. It's like a couple hours a week.

>> Yeah.

>> But >> more strategic.

>> Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

>> I'm not like in the ad accounts every day.

>> Yeah.

>> Who's what's performing? It's like no once a day go into it. um see what's up and >> yeah that's why I like Excel sheets you know you can just go in there check it okay seems fine we're trending in the

right direction don't have to look in the ad account >> yeah exactly we have a data analyst that does beautiful charts for us >> exactly >> in Excel that's like her job right and

she's very good at what she does so it's very easy for me to pop in and visualize the data and know okay this is the thing that needs to be worked on tell the team give them instructions execute on it

>> yeah yeah for me it's always like if if I can just look at an Excel sheet and send a voice memo and it works and it gets fixed, then you're then you're that's the >> the sweet spot.

>> That's the perfect business.

>> Yeah, >> because you know with team you it's kind of like you need someone that understands

the bigger picture and that can work with minimal instructions. So you're um you don't have to overexlain and basically do half the work yourself.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Once you get that, it's really like the perfect golden zone to be in as a business owner.

>> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So, you just mentioned mentors. Did you like buy a bunch of

mentors. Did you like buy a bunch of courses back in the day or did you just kind of like find these mentors organically? What has been your

organically? What has been your >> um >> process?

I was in what was the so I think the first one I don't remember where what I bought first but the one that really picked up for me

was oh no no no the first one that really picked up was a Dutch guy and dice did a native ads course and I bought that it's pretty good learned how

to run native way back I was still in university um >> why did you want to learn native ads when you were in university back M >> just like I I was studying finance, quantitative finance. I wanted to be a

quantitative finance. I wanted to be a quant.

>> Mhm.

>> So I saw kind of how Facebook ads were and it seemed like a lot of randomness.

>> Mhm.

>> The algorithm and all this stuff and um native ads looked like a beautiful Excel sheet. It looked like very quantitative

sheet. It looked like very quantitative and >> this stuff I understand.

>> So that's why I um jumped into it.

>> Yeah. And then I I took I realized my copy skills aren't quite where they need to be.

>> So I got nothing held back by Allan.

>> You joined the mastermind or you just checked the group?

>> Yeah, I joined the mastermind.

>> So So wait, so you have been doing this [ __ ] only for two or three years?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Crazy. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. So you

joined Nothing Held Back the 20K package. You were one of the first that

package. You were one of the first that joined. Uh, no. I joined the NHB Plus.

joined. Uh, no. I joined the NHB Plus.

>> Oh, okay. Okay. Oh, man. Then you really have not been doing this for that long.

>> No, man. Like crazy. And then

>> I got I first started when I was 16.

>> Yeah.

>> Selling some like gadgets. No. Uh,

selling [snorts] tea actually on Shopify.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh, I never got paid out of that because I was using my grandfather's name and I needed to do his verification.

>> Yeah.

>> To get my He has the same name as me. So

to get the payouts, but he passed away.

So like my money got stuck in there and it was huge pain. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Um then it was some native ads that we did um I did personally and then I did a publishing company when I joined NHB plus and this is where stuff exploded

for me. So I watched the call by Mike

for me. So I watched the call by Mike Gondia which is pretty he's the guy I'm working with and the real estate offer actually.

>> Got yeah I know I mean I've talked to Mike briefly and um I've I joined NGBA's plus when it launched first the the high-end one. Yeah. Yeah.

high-end one. Yeah. Yeah.

>> So [snorts] we um I saw his call and I did my own publishing deal with a friend from university at the time. We sold that company early last year. Then I met my

current business partner. We were doing like a publishing deal together.

>> Was publishing my business partner. He

was like a huge POD guy at the time.

Print on demand.

>> Yeah.

>> So uh while we were doing that, he had me jump on Newsbreak a bit because um he was one of the first people on the platform ever. Yeah, it's

platform ever. Yeah, it's >> like, damn, these CPCs, we should run ClickBank. Put that stuff on there,

ClickBank. Put that stuff on there, exploded. And a year later, we're the

exploded. And a year later, we're the biggest affiliates on the platform by a wide margin at this point. So, it's kind

of crazy how fast things exploded for me getting into this.

>> Yeah. So, how old are you now?

>> 22.

>> So, you went from at 16 to 22 in four years. That's crazy. And you only really

years. That's crazy. And you only really started with the real like internet marketing stuff like 2 three years ago.

>> Yeah. Like I was still un in university at the time like two years ago or something like that.

>> Yeah. You dropped out I assume.

>> No, I finished I graduated a year a year early. So I I was doing a three-year

early. So I I was doing a three-year degree.

>> Yeah.

>> I graduated in two years and >> in Vienna or >> in Milan?

>> Milan. Okay.

>> And just focus on marketing. Yeah.

>> Got it. So all your mentors were kind of like you were just kind of working with them and then they were >> kind of teaching you.

>> No, well I started working with Mike recently actually.

>> Yeah, >> it was last year but I was already very successful by the time >> I started working with him. I just

watched that call in NHP and I kind of implemented what I learned, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> It was so nice how process driven it was. Yeah.

was. Yeah.

>> So, yeah, I love how uh that team thinks and how they operate and they hire good people. So, I love working with them and

people. So, I love working with them and um I'm basically their CMO for some of their offers.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> No, that's that's good for Mike. So,

he's really like even stepping out of the CMO role into the CEO leader slash >> he Yeah. Yeah. For sure. He's become

just the leader and he's a good one. So

>> yeah, >> I enjoy my side of things. He really

enjoys the leadership side and it's one of those passion projects for me for sure.

>> Yeah, that's Yeah, that's fast, man.

Like what what's like your record day in terms of like spending money on ads?

>> I have no idea. My record day in sales >> Yeah.

>> was 240,000.

>> Yeah.

>> Um in spend I have no idea what that what the spend was. must have been like over six figures or >> Yeah, that's what I was saying. So you

you you went from like 16 to 24 spending 100k per day making 200k plus per day.

>> Yeah. 16 to 22.

>> That's that's pretty fast and crazy.

>> Yeah. But I I first ran my first paid ad when I was 19, so three years ago.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> On native ads and did some Facebook. So

in three years realistically I >> Yeah.

>> Really my stuff really exploded. So, so

what were you running the native ads too?

>> Uh, like supplements. There was diabetes was my niche at the time.

>> I don't run that niche anymore.

>> Because I don't feel ethically aligned with it.

>> Yeah, that's also interesting which you didn't talk about. Like there's a lot of like people and affiliates who are kind of selling stuff that I would say is definitely unethical slash potentially illegal. Yeah,

illegal. Yeah, >> you seem to be at least on the the in the gray area or better and not in the >> Yeah. No, like look, as long as we're

>> Yeah. No, like look, as long as we're not like hurting people.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not going to do an offer where we're like stealing money or doing crypto scams or >> Yeah.

>> doing [snorts] something where we're actually hurting people.

>> Yeah.

>> Yes. I would sell an overhyped like nerve supplement.

>> Yeah. But with diabetes, it gets tricky because every VSSL says, "Stop taking your pills."

your pills." >> Yeah, it's dangerous.

>> People will take that advice to heart and they'll they'll die. I don't want to be responsible for killing people. It's

like, >> yeah, >> it's not what I'm into. So that's why I try to look at like what kind of effect does this have on the actual customer?

>> Yeah.

>> Is it at least neutral or good?

>> Mhm. Or if it's very negative, I will stay away from it.

>> Got it.

Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. I didn't

know that. But that pretty [ __ ] [laughter] >> man. All right, let's let's move to a

>> man. All right, let's let's move to a more light topic. So, uh, you are now in Budapest. This is in Budapest.

Budapest. This is in Budapest.

>> Yep.

>> Affiliate world just happened. Did you

like go to any presentations? Did you

check out any of the speakers?

>> No.

>> Did you go even to the I mean, I bought a ticket, but I didn't go. [laughter]

>> I bought a ticket. Um, I went on the first day.

>> Okay.

>> Just said hello to some friends. Um,

[snorts] >> but afterwards I just didn't go on the second day.

There was a big uh event by a vendor I'm working with.

>> Mhm.

>> Where it was so good.

We're having lunch. So, I just skipped affiliate world to go to that.

>> Yeah.

>> Then there was a Neutra event.

Then there was a um ClickBank event.

Then there was a Digi Store event. So I

just spent all day at events yesterday.

And I like all of them. I know most of the people at this point. I've been

going to these conferences for the past two years or so.

>> Yeah. You go to all of them? [snorts]

>> I like all of them. I'll go to like I really like the one in >> I really like the one in Barcelona.

>> It was really cool. The one in Budapest last year was also really nice. I say

better than this one. The conference

itself.

>> Mhm.

>> But the events were also good here.

>> Um the uh one in Bangkok I haven't been to yet.

>> Yeah, >> I might go, but I'm not too much of a fan of like Thailand to be frank.

>> Why is that? [laughter]

>> Just I don't know, man. I heard the stories by people and it doesn't seem like place I want to go. But Dubai one.

Yeah, that one was so nice. The Dubai

one.

>> Some really interesting side events for ecom.

>> Yeah. So, so it sounds like a lot of people don't really go to the event itself.

>> Yeah, 100%. [snorts]

Yeah.

>> Or but of course you need to get invited to those places. Like I was also lucky that I was invited by Rohan. I don't

know if you know him [snorts] uh yesterday. Oh yeah, I saw Rohan

yesterday. Oh yeah, I saw Rohan yesterday thing.

>> Yeah, like grow one was at my chilling at my rooftop yesterday and then we went to uh to a restaurant after that with eight nine other guys.

>> Ah, that's >> so um I was lucky with that, you know, but those are that's where you have like these kind of conversations.

>> So if you go to an event, you're not like this is what you're trying to do.

You're kind of trying to have like kind of these kind of conversations, [snorts] not like talk to 100,000 people, be busy. You're you're just kind of like

busy. You're you're just kind of like trying to find some good conversations.

What's your strategy there? Or it's kind of like organic now because you know ClickBank will probably get you into the right rooms, places, invite you.

>> I [snorts] mean, look, um, I will go to the event, but the problem with the event is that it's mostly like hot little Ukrainian girls paid to pitch you something they don't even understand.

So [laughter] >> yes, >> agency accounts, what's your highest score? What's a high score? I don't know

score? What's a high score? I don't know what that is, you know, like. So, it's

kind of just an annoying um an annoying conference lately.

>> Yeah.

>> A lot of it is just like crypto casino.

>> Yeah.

>> All these things that I would never run.

>> Um but the actual side events, so I'll I'll get some friends off of the official conference parties. That's what

I did initially.

>> Yeah.

>> I went to one [snorts] in Milan at the time. I was still in university and I

time. I was still in university and I met a couple guys. They were they were really good people.

>> Yeah.

>> They kind of got me into the space. They

showed me some stuff, introduced me to people. And after you start building a

people. And after you start building a couple of friendships, you know, Rohan got you into into the dig store thing.

>> Mhm.

>> So, it's kind of the same thing.

>> Someone will have something, someone will organize something, sometimes I'll organize something, and >> Yeah.

>> We just use those uh connections to get more connections, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Rowan is such a good dude, man. Like,

>> has a heart in the right place. Shout

out Shout out to Rowan.

>> One of the only good agencies out there.

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree. I

agree. And and also a good dude and a fun like there's people who are, you know, either really fun but not good or like and good but not that fun and not and then also not doing but

>> he's doing a bunch of stuff. Yeah. I see

him all over the world. It's crazy.

Dubai Bangkok Amsterdam.

Yeah. I don't know how the guy does that, but um >> magic.

>> Yeah.

>> On the team or good dialogue.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Know, I mean, like even without the team, like the the amount of traveling and like attending light late evenings that he's doing, that's that's pretty insane.

>> Yeah. I'm like I feel like I've been run over by a train after all these events.

>> Yeah.

>> I just want to go back to my little lakehouse Macedonia and >> same >> chill out for a week and not talk to anyone. same thing for a week just to

anyone. same thing for a week just to relax again.

>> Yeah. That's why I'm really happy that the event is in Budapest.

>> I didn't go and they just came to my place. I I have a really nice place. So,

place. I I have a really nice place. So,

they all came to my place. I didn't have to do anything. My wife got them some beers. We're just drinking some I'm not

beers. We're just drinking some I'm not drinking. We drink some beers. Take the

drinking. We drink some beers. Take the

taxi to the nice restaurant that I know where it's always perfect. No crazy

stuff. Everybody has an amazing time.

>> You know, I went to the the club, but I already left before you even uh attended. I was like, "Oh, check it

attended. I was like, "Oh, check it out." made a photo with some bottles for

out." made a photo with some bottles for my brother. I always made a jokes like

my brother. I always made a jokes like my brother loves like expensive vodkas and stuff, but I don't drink. So, I

always make a photo with a big bottle of vodka like pretending I'm like calling with the vodka bottle like being like degenerate, but I don't drink it and I send it to him and then then I just go home. But, uh [snorts]

home. But, uh [snorts] >> anyways, that's I feel you. I feel you.

So, what what what events are you looking to uh visit? I mean, Bangkok. I

think Bangkok is like it's going to be fun.

>> I'm open to trying it. [snorts] it. I've

never been to Thailand and >> always kind of assumed I wouldn't like it, but I mean, why not >> go there, see what's up.

>> Um, another one I'm interested in is ClickBank Platinum Summit. I'm going to be speaking there.

>> Nice.

>> So, hopefully uh that goes well. I don't

know. I've never spoken on stage before.

It's going to be interesting.

>> What are you going to be speaking on?

basically what we just spoke about. I'm

probably going to take um our podcast, >> transcribe it and give it to Chad GPT to um make me some [snorts] slides and Yeah.

>> And then you're like remove my worst secrets or my best secrets >> and put it on slides now with what's that tool called again? It works pretty well. There's this AI Sigma. Figma

well. There's this AI Sigma. Figma

>> uh Figma. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Figma. No, no, but no the the PDF tool or like a PowerPoint slide generator tool.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There is one that my business partner was using for the course. It's It's quite right.

course. It's It's quite right.

>> It's doing Yeah, it was pretty good. It

was pretty good.

>> Yeah, >> we're going to figure something out with that. Just take the podcast and

that. Just take the podcast and >> I think it's actually a really good idea.

>> Will save me a ton of time.

>> You should. Yeah. Yeah. Just need to figure out some visuals to make it a little bit easier for people to understand.

>> Yeah, it's easy. And

>> then you're good to go. You're welcome.

[laughter] >> Thank you.

>> That's great. You don't have to prepare your presentation anymore.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Uh, in terms of um the ClickBank thing, I almost didn't want to go.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Cuz you know, we did so much volume for them and they were asking us to pay for the event.

>> I've heard this story from multiple people. Yeah.

people. Yeah.

>> And the But they also bring on some gurus outside of the industry that like never did a single scent as affiliates to teach us for >> I get paid for that [ __ ] >> Yeah. And they they don't pay for them.

>> Yeah. And they they don't pay for them.

>> Yeah.

>> And I'm like, that's disrespectful. But

then they were like, "Okay, look, like at this point you don't have to do that." So

that." So >> yeah, >> it's like, "Okay, I'll buy." And next year they're doing one in Idaho, I think.

>> Okay.

>> Where I've never been to the States, so that's going to be interesting. Um Idaho

one, that one is going to be um basically like you go to Idaho and you catch a jet to Sun Valley, like the mountains.

>> Mhm. And uh it's like a resort but only for people that have done 5 million plus.

>> Cool. Yeah.

>> In a year. So I I'm really excited to see how that one goes. It's apparently

the highest quality uh one so far.

>> Yeah, that sounds pretty amazing.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> What about you? Are you attending any events?

>> No, I I don't know for now. I mean may I mean maybe Thailand? No. I mean, for me it's like I was supposed to go to Nomad Capitalist Life >> in like two weeks from now, but I'm not sure if I'm going because I just feel

like going to Malaysia, the time zone, all that stuff. I I might cancel it. I

was going with Z actually, >> but he canceled it. [laughter]

>> He was like, I can't go. I'm going to lock in. I'm going to go to our show.

lock in. I'm going to go to our show.

And now I'm also not sure if I'm going.

I'm flying to Dubai next week and I don't know if I'm going to go to Malaysia. But I also like to go to some

Malaysia. But I also like to go to some different events outside of internet marketing.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> just like what you mentioned with the like that the biggest fear with people have hearing issues is that they have to go to a you know elderly home.

>> I feel like sometimes your best ideas are from outside of um outside of the industry or outside of marketing. Yeah.

Or that's what those are the ideas that can scale sometimes because you come up or like what you said with that ad account where you saw a new structure that you or like a new ad format you didn't see before >> and that's where you know your edge.

>> Yeah, that was ease ad format.

[clears throat] I'm not going to leak it because it's his, but >> he's still running that. He's still

crushing with that.

>> Yeah, >> he's an interesting guy in terms of ideas. Like some of the most unique

ideas. Like some of the most unique stuff. His offers work very well. I'm

stuff. His offers work very well. I'm

running them right now. Pretty decent.

>> He's he's an artist.

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Special type of artist.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's

>> He's [snorts] a crazy guy. Yeah. He was

um I never knew that but he was like I at some point I helped I got him some uh work for my projects and he used that money then to actually start doing his own dating offer first and then he

really blew off. So he came like this is the sec like I met him for the second time on the second podcast last time >> and um for his podcast and but he came like a couple of months ago and he bought me a perfume and stuff and he's like yeah thanks for that. I'm like oh

yeah I didn't even think about that stuff but that was pretty cool to see.

He's uh still uh humble, I would say.

>> Yeah. Doing the copyriter thing. He's

making jokes that um soloing his copyriters and his own offers because we're doing more volume than him on his own stuff, >> which is pretty funny. Uh but yeah, I've

been showing them how we run media as well, so he can build up the team. I

think the relationship with the advertiser as it's called in the affiliate space or the vendor is really important. It's like the most important

important. It's like the most important thing and it's one of the best relationships I've had with any vendor the one I have with him or super helpful on both sides.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's a cheap I think we're going to end it uh end it there.

>> Yeah.

>> Um is there anything that you want to pitch? I guess not. Or like are you

pitch? I guess not. Or like are you looking for copyriters? Is there

anything that we can uh >> No, the only thing I'm going to pitch if someone sees me on some event, say hi, like introduce yourself, like to meet some new people and >> Yeah, >> it's cool. Yeah.

>> So, that will be at affiliate world. I

will I I know you have a Facebook account and a Twitter. So, I'll put that below the video.

>> Yeah, that works.

>> If they want to check you out if >> I have zero tweets and zero posts on Facebook though.

>> Okay. Yeah. So, then it's a >> private guy.

>> Then that's uh the private guy. There's

no call to action then for uh for today.

So uh in that case, if you like these videos, marketing nerd stuff, subscribe, notify, all that stuff that I don't know because I'm not a vlogger, YouTuber, podcaster.

>> Thanks uh thanks for this impromptu fast yesterday evening organized podcast.

>> I had a good time. I enjoyed it. Thank

you.

>> Yeah, thank you very much. think you're

having me.