324. Modernizing Acupuncture with Michelle Larivee, Founder & CEO of WTHN

I think of acupuncture as the original longevity tool. That's what the medicine

longevity tool. That's what the medicine has done for thousands of years. It's a

system of health care, not of sick care by sticking to our roots. Like we know that what we do is regulate the nervous system and balance hormones. And you

know, amazing that they're buzzing now, but that's that is actually authentically what the medicine does and have done for thousands of years.

Welcome back to the Fit Insider podcast.

I'm your host, Joe Vaneri. Today I'm

joined by Michelle Larby, founder and CEO of Within. In this episode, we talk about modernizing acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. Michelle

shares her personal healing journey and the decision to launch a vertically integrated studio model and the company's plans to expand nationally with an omni channel brand. Plus, we

discuss acupuncture as an original longevity tool, making ancient medicine accessible to modern consumers, and why health span, not self-care, is the future of wellness. Let's get into it.

The Fit Insider podcast is presented by Egyp's smart fitness ecosystem is transforming healthcare through exercise. Combining strength equipment

exercise. Combining strength equipment with AI powered software and corporate wellness platform, Wellpass, it's leading the shift to proactive preventative health. Learn more about

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ejim.com.

Hi Michelle, welcome to Fit Insider.

Thanks for joining us.

Hey Joe, thanks for having me. I'm

thrilled to be here.

Yeah, excited to chat. Lots to get into.

Um, and right off the top, maybe the best thing is could you just introduce yourself? Tell us about within and then

yourself? Tell us about within and then we will go from there. I'm Michelle

Laraveie, founder and CEO of Within, and we are on a mission to make acupuncture and healing modalities rooted in traditional Chinese medicine as

accessible as possible. I was inspired to start the brand through my own personal healing journey. And today we have five soon to be six studios in New

York as well as a complete set of at-ome products and related to acupuncture and Chinese medicine.

Yeah. Kind of offline as we were chatting I'd asked you know when you started you said 2019 and thinking about these you know whether it's acupuncture

or traditional Chinese medicine things that have been around for centuries.

What was your kind of thought in terms of modernizing this, scaling it and like where that intersects with how people think about wellness today

in terms of maybe it helps just to share a little bit of my story which is kind of how it's connected. So I got started with acupuncture almost 10 years ago at this point following a ski accident

where I had chronic pain from dislocated vertebrae in my neck and my back and you know tried everything from chiropractic to physical therapy shots and injections and nothing really fully took care of

the issue until my doctor recommended acupuncture and found that the pain relief was instant. And I was able to stop taking painkillers and muscle relaxers finally. And you know, that was

relaxers finally. And you know, that was obviously really huge, not having to do any of that. And you know, kind of from there, I was able to realize that I was

sleeping better. I was less stressed. I

sleeping better. I was less stressed. I

was getting sick less often. And all of a sudden, I was in this whole world kind of organically of preventative health care and feeling super empowered about my own personal health. You know, as someone always been focused more on

fitness and nutrition, this opened my eyes to like a whole new level of what it means to be thinking about mental health connected with physical health and to be thinking about longevity and

very different and very empowering. And

then from there, I actually have fertility challenges and acupuncture helped me naturally get pregnant. Um, so

completely life-changing. Um, and he became a huge advocate. Started telling

all my friends and colleagues, husband, etc. about the different benefits, how it works, and all of those things, but realized pretty quickly that while there actually was a ton of interest and

excitement around a natural preventative solution that's been around for thousands of years, there's no easy way for people to get started. Where do I go? How do I know it's going to work?

go? How do I know it's going to work?

How do I choose a practitioner? Barriers

in terms of cost, environment. So kind

of lots of different things stacked against a consumer who, you know, in 2019 has a pretty clear view of what they want and expect from an experience.

And so to me, I was kind of like scratching my head. I'm like, how is this medicine that's been around for thousands of years because it's so time- tested and now there's like incredible

data and science that supports what we've known for thousands of years, you know, why is it so hard for someone to access it? And so for me, that's, you

access it? And so for me, that's, you know, kind of what within is all about is how do we take this medicine and I like to say accessibility in every sense of the word. And there's there's a huge

opportunity that's out there because I think there's and you know we can talk about this in more depth if it's helpful, but there's I think a ton of myths about acupuncture. There's a lot of kind of, you know, lack of

understanding in terms of the benefits.

You know, I think a lot of people are familiar with pain and fertility, but don't necessarily know about digestive health and nervous system regulation and insomnia and sleep disorders and, you

know, kind of the list can go on and on.

And so that's what we're all about is really closing that gap in terms of education and then creating a model where people can go and feel comfortable

and safe. as you were even describing it

and safe. as you were even describing it as it's you know I first tried acupuncture because it was something like

whenever you looked into okay what of course there's like a subset of people that are and this is even years ago kind of like pre within you got started but a

group of people were doing it they're into like kind of functional natural medicine all those things you you know kind of entertain it there's not a ton

of information about it it wasn't clear.

But the one thing and I I think this is probably common among a lot of people who are maybe like me. It's like played competitive sports was very like driven type A and it's like what is pretty much

every elite athlete or large numbers of elite athletes doing? It's like they're doing acupuncture, they're doing cupping, they're doing like XY like all of these things list like okay well how do I do that? Like where

where can I find somebody that does that? And it basically was like a

that? And it basically was like a referral, a friend of a friend that they do it for one of the guys on the team.

Like maybe I could introduce you and they could like come to your house, you could go. And so it was like and still

could go. And so it was like and still fast forward, it's pretty much like there's still a number of hoops you have to jump through. So to your point,

whether it's access or education or dispelling some of these kind of myths about it, how did you even start to chip away at that? And like how much has that

changed in the years that you have been working at it? Like do you do you find that it's still some of those kind of like same hurdles and misconceptions or like have you been able to make progress

like towards this accessibility?

I think we've made a ton of progress especially in New York where our physical locations are today which is like really really rewarding to see. Um

we one of the things I'm most proud of is that actually 60% of our customers have never ever tried acupuncture once ever before. And so the fact that we're

ever before. And so the fact that we're able to open up that service for such a huge population of people who are never able to find a place to try it and then

I'd say you know even the other 40% like a large population of that would say I did it once or twice but I couldn't really commit or you know it was only because I had like this one specific

issue but it wasn't really going to be like a lifestyle which is you know what we're really encouraging because that's where you get the long-term benefits is through consistency. it's, you know,

through consistency. it's, you know, unique to the medicine, you know. So, I

think we're starting to see like a lot of exciting signals just in terms of we've seen search volume go up from Google with like the work that we're doing and the awareness that we're

raising. But I do think that, you know,

raising. But I do think that, you know, that needs to happen at a national level and that's ultimately what our goal is is to scale outside of New York and get to other markets. So, I think there are,

you know, kind of a a number of barriers, but I do, you know, we're seeing awareness, we're seeing understanding. Um, and kind of like you

understanding. Um, and kind of like you said already, I think it does really come down to education. And, you know, I think of it as like peeling back the layers of the onion because I think there's a lot of different things. So,

it could be something as basic as, oh my gosh, needles. Like, I'm afraid of needles. Totally valid. People have been

needles. Totally valid. People have been afraid of needles forever because of getting vaccinated and things like that, but you know, acupuncture needles are gentle like cat whiskers and they it's, you know, it's a totally relaxing

experience. Most people fall asleep

experience. Most people fall asleep while they're on the table. Um so you know all of that combined with the history and the culture which we take really seriously out within in terms of

um really sharing the ancient system of beliefs that we practice as well as the science that's coming out as well because I think that that's kind of a really important lynch pin in terms of

making modality mainstream and it's something that I saw and I studied really closely like you know and the way I see it is that yoga was 15 years ahead of where we are with acupuncture and

meditation. ation was 5 to 10 years

meditation. ation was 5 to 10 years ahead of us and all follow very similar journeys in terms of being ancient practices um that came to the US and were maybe um more of a niche market

kind of what you were describing um but then how did they become mainstream it was celebrities and athletes kind of to your point like were became aware had

access because of who they were you know CEOs started to you know understand some of the performance benefits and then what started to really happen was the educa like the scientific education that started to explain what we've known for

thousands of years in terms that are you know critical to modern consumers are seeking you know data and information and that's you know the next kind of phase of that is brands that became the

access point that understood okay we have to find a way to then take all of this and make it accessible to consumers I say like you know headsp space did that for meditation core power yoga did

that for yoga and within is really the access point for acupuncture Chinese medicine 100%. And I was pretty much going to set

100%. And I was pretty much going to set up that same kind of framework. You

know, you know it inside and out, I'm sure, just seeing how this has evolved.

The yoga is like the quintessential example. Of course, meditation, same

example. Of course, meditation, same thing. And now there's even been this

thing. And now there's even been this breakthrough kind of with sauna and bathous, cold plunge. Okay. Now you have a number of studios that are popping up

everywhere. you red light therapy which

everywhere. you red light therapy which is some integrated into you know some of this those types of bathous but also standalone studios. So this paradigm

standalone studios. So this paradigm that you see it moving from fringe to kind of elite it's getting called you know whether it's woo woo or it's too expensive it's only for celebrities and

then it starts to move into the mainstream and become accessible in a way where it just kind of becomes commonplace such that there's a core power and people are wearing yoga wearing Lululemon that have never done

yoga in their lives. It's so it's so mainstream. And I do want to talk about

mainstream. And I do want to talk about the kind of physical expansion, what that looks like and how you're thinking about it. But just in terms of the maybe

about it. But just in terms of the maybe product standpoint and now in terms of the instudio experience versus uh supplements versus

at home digital, like what does the kind of full offering look like and how do you maybe like prioritize those?

Yeah, totally. So, I would say, you know, the core of our business is our acupuncture studios and we're um super focused on scaling the studios and um you know,

really building best-in-class unit economics at a studio level. One of the things that's really incredible about having a four-wall business at the core of an omni channel business is that we

have a team of over 65 um doctors of acupuncture that are part of our team and help design our products and do the education and can you know be on expert

panels and help spread awareness. Um, so

I think that's a really important part of us and you know we kind of never lose sight of the importance of our practitioners who are the heart and soul of what we do at within. And then we you

know I'd say kind of two things. So one

is we really have this mission of accessibility and we know that scaling a four-wall model is faster and harder than a products business. And so

with our products, we're able to reach people nationally and even already globally while having five studios. So

that's really important. And I'd say kind of the other aspect that's just an underlying part of our business model is that in Chinese medicine, you don't just get like one acupuncture session once or

two and then you're done. If you're

really looking to optimize your health and your results, you're doing it once a week, twice a month, but then every day you're actually adopting the lifestyle.

And there's a lot of things that are part of the Chinese medicine lifestyle, whether that's, you know, supplements, which we think of as part of the nutritional guidelines, acupressure

points and routines that you can do at home, you know, meditations, movement.

So, different things like that, right?

And so, all of that kind of led us to be building an omni channel business from day one. But that being said, you know,

day one. But that being said, you know, at least at the space that we're in and you know, I'd say for the next couple years, like we're really focusing on the

studios as the core.

Perfect. And then thinking about what's kind of fueling the growth on that side of the business now physical expansion looking maybe

saturating somewhere like New York versus expanding to other cities doing that as company owned versus franchising like what does that growth look like?

Yeah, I mean these are all like board level discussions that we're having actively right now and things that we're thinking about and you know fortunately there's road mapaps of brands that have

done it both different ways. I you know I think it's pretty clear for right now we're really focusing on the New York market and making sure that we have a really deep and loyal and engaged

customer base there that I think will then give us a bigger halo effect. So,

I'd say, you know, even like several studios ago, we were kind of already debating like, should we go to Miami?

Should we go to California? Like, I

literally get real estate emails in my inbox from cities all over the country every single day. And for me, it actually was really important to have not only from an economies of scale and

just, you know, best practice in business, making sure that we had that within, you know, our first market. I

think it was also about the brand and the understanding and the education. And

you know, I there's pros and cons to starting in New York, right? It's super

expensive. You know, business regulation and healthcare regulation is challenging. But there's also a lot of

challenging. But there's also a lot of benefits in terms of how big of a market is, how dense of a market is, how many studios you can actually stand up before you actually have to look outside. And

it puts a lot of operational strain, of course, when you're expanding outside of New York. So, I'd say for the next year,

New York. So, I'd say for the next year, we're focused on New York. And then

2027, we're already looking at, you know, a national strategy and kind of how we're staggering that and definitely exploring, you know, the franchise versus corporateowned discussion as

well. So, more to come.

well. So, more to come.

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All of these different kind of whether it's self-care or just recovery practices like I think of so many times

where I went to maybe I I went to the chiropractor. I was like, "Oh, and like

chiropractor. I was like, "Oh, and like in this little side corner you can get a massage or I went to like a fitness whatever like kind of high-end kind call

it like a performance club and it's like oh and over here you can get all of these things chiropractic adjustments separately. It's like and then now fast

separately. It's like and then now fast forward all of those things are legitimate scalable multiple players in that category

operating across cities all across the country on their own.

What going from that making that jump from call it what you said five or six to

what's the next milestone 15 20 plus?

Have you started to identify like what are the biggest kind of operational challenges and saying okay this is how we get it dialed to the point where

we're able to scale and we if you choose to go into that kind of franchising model you can but if not it's like the path to that national brand becomes like very clear

as we're we're always like very clear on what our bigger vision is right which is to make each incremental studio successful and then to be scaling kind of beyond there. But I would say like

for me it's always started even from like our very first studio was keeping in mind that you know we're opening one but we very quickly within the next year

want to be at three. So you know I think kind of hiring ahead of the game a little bit like I've you know I've seen the movie too where you know you're building two studios and you're like

hiring for 20 or 50 like that's too much right? So for me it's always kind of

right? So for me it's always kind of like an incremental five three to five ahead at least where we are now. I think

it you know kind of the planning comes from there and I'd say you know one of the things that I've has been kind of like a core belief for myself since starting within is that I'm very aware

that this is the first time that you know anybody's done this in the acupuncture industry. A and then B that

acupuncture industry. A and then B that you know me personally like my background is absolutely not as a brickandmortar operator and so what I've tried to do is

build a cap table and a network of advisors very strategically with people who are ahead of me and who have done what I'm hoping to do. Um and kind of to your point there's like parallel models

in different industries right and so I look at models that I really admire. So

for example, the founders of soul cycle and sweet green and heyday SLT you know are all have all been a part of the within journey and that's been

incredibly helpful. Um also core power

incredibly helpful. Um also core power yoga as well. So I think that kind of I always look to them when I'm thinking about planning ahead and I'm kind of

always planning not just six months or a year ahead but thinking 12 to 24 months ahead.

thinking about that growth one thing now it's like there is the traditional Chinese medicine and you mentioned like the lifestyle and everything that comes with that and

certainly that creating an opportunity to have this omni channel but really integrated kind of with the consumer as their wellness journey their acupuncture

journey evolves at the same time there's a number of call it consumer trends that we're also kind of talking about these two from the bath houses to self-care to

you know XYZ how much like does that impact the road map at this point whether it's like stress management or longevity or hormonal health or immune

support you mentioned fertility is do those play a bigger smaller role based on like maybe what's top of mind and trending with people right now or is

it more just rooted in both the the pract practice itself and then focusing on scaling the physical locations versus you know what may or may not be top of

mind call it for consumers in this moment you know I think it's maybe a little bit of both to be honest so like I think of acupuncture as the original longevity tool that's what the medicine has done

for thousands of years it's a system of health care not of sick care which we have here in this country and so you know I think just by by sticking to our

root roots like we know that what we do is regulate the nervous system and balance hormones and you know amazing that they're buzzy now but that's that is actually authentically what the

medicine does and has done for thousands of years so I think it's trying to make that connection because I don't think when people think hormone balance or longevity acupuncture is probably not

the first thing that they're thinking of just you know kind of organically and so I think our goal is to raise awareness And I don't think it's like from a short-term perspective either, right? So

I think some of these things that we're talking about aren't trends that are going to go away either in terms of sleep as like a core driver of longevity or um you know

hormone health or anything like that.

So, I actually think it's more like the market is evolving in a positive way to help us connect what we do to what consumers are seeking. If that makes sense.

Yeah, 100%. I actually, you know, and it's that's why sometimes like trend is the the wrong word because that suggests that it's like here and then it's gone.

it's like a flash in the pan when it's like more a secular shift like just fundamentally like this is you know to your point it's really like we just have to kind of speak that language. It's

like now people are seeing it this way they're behaving this way. It's like we already do that. So it's like how do we align what they're thinking and doing with like our service and and make sure

that when they think of this thing they think of us. I would say out of all those words, my favorite that's trending uh but again not a trend I think is like

the focus on health span because I love that it's like health like at the core versus to your point like wellness or self-care or like you know some of those other things. um and just focusing or

other things. um and just focusing or extending your health span, you know, everything else kind of falls because then you, you know, have better mobility and higher quality of life and more joy

and happiness and, you know, purpose and I think all of that is, you know, if we want to rebrand or find a word to focus on, that's that's my favorite. One other

thing I wanted to chat about is you know you mentioned this from like a unit economics make of course it has to make sense from like a

business standpoint but then there's also the the accessibility and also the like kind of medical legitimacy that goes with it. You're marrying like a

couple things that let's let's say a soul cycle or core power yoga doesn't have to worry about right from like the fitness lens. So whether it's pricing,

fitness lens. So whether it's pricing, whether it's, you know, how you're hiring the folks to deliver the acupuncture and then also on the scaling

the physical locations, how are you making the kind of unit economics work?

I mean, that's a great question, something that we're thinking about all the time. Um, you know, I think what we

the time. Um, you know, I think what we really balance at within because I'd say our price point is kind of like a sweet spot like of value and accessibility and that is a really important part, right?

And so we do it in a few ways. We have a membership model which, you know, we're very familiar with in the industry, but having that kind of recurring revenue and consistency is like such a win-win

for the consumer and for, you know, from their health results. if you're coming regularly, you're going to feel better.

Also, just, you know, from a business perspective, um, helps us have more stable revenue and things like that. And

then we just find that our members have much higher LTVs. They're, you know, the ones that are are evangelists out on the street bringing all their friends in, like kind of to your point earlier, that is definitely still the number one way

that people hear about acupuncture and feel comfortable going is through referral. And then, you know, we really

referral. And then, you know, we really balance the experience. I would say with a higher volume of clients that are able to come through our doors on a given

day. So making sure that we have enough

day. So making sure that we have enough capacity to see a higher number of clients than is typical in kind of an individual private practice. Um it's

it's a a sweet spot in between, you know, some of those super affordable models of acupuncture where I'd say the focus is less on experience and more just on getting people in the door and then, you know, private practitioner see

a couple clients a day. So, we're kind of in between and I feel like it's that sweet spot that really enables us to be successful. Um, we're super disciplined

successful. Um, we're super disciplined about rent deals that we sign because that's a huge cost for the business. And

so, you know, I think we have not signed a deal that I regret. Knock on wood. So,

you know, that's been a really big focus of me as a large cost driver. So, you

know, very lots of different metrics that we focus on and I think staying focused and disciplined is important.

And then as we get towards the end of the conversation, it's still kind of relatively early in the new year, folks are thinking about, hey, what's top

priority Q1 or maybe first half of the year or even 2026, like what are you thinking about and talking about with the team and whether it's things that you have coming down the pipeline that

you're excited about or things that you're kind of looking at like, hey, this is what we're really focused on executing right now, like what's kind of top of mind for you.

Yeah. Uh well, we have two studio openings slated in New York um in the next couple months. So, that is definitely top of mind for us is that and then kind of planning for future

studio openings. We have had some

studio openings. We have had some exciting wins from a product distribution standpoint in the last few months that we're looking to, you know, kind of continue to build out. We just

launched in Ulta. We recently partnered with Canyon Ranch. And so, both of those have been really exciting. um and

consider and you know I think one of the things we actually haven't talked about that we've seen a lot of is related to Canyon Ranch is this big convergence of it's

not just about kind of like compartmentalizing your wellness or health activities. It's like how is that

health activities. It's like how is that authenticated into every part of your day whether that's at work, whether that's on vacation. And so we're seeing

a ton of convergence within the travel industry. Um, and so partnering with a

industry. Um, and so partnering with a number of different hospitality brands, which is really exciting. Um, so

thinking about that and then also thinking about corporate wellness. So

we've had just like a ton of kind of inbound requests for on-site wellness services or corporate memberships and things like that. So finding ways to kind of extend beyond just our four

walls.

Yeah, it's super smart. There's been a number of examples of folks that have executed really well around how do we kind of bolt on or integrate longevity

services to maybe the hospitality and travel or something like social wellness clubs or programming the same thing. is

I know it's kind of still early you mentioned but is that something you would see where it's hey let's colllocate

or integrate uh within studio here or is it more so just the kind of like programming products as an extension of what you're doing in the physical locations

yeah I mean I think from a collocation perspective we're always thinking about co- tenency and our own locations um and there's it's like amazing because you mentioned Mio Detox, but we were just

talking about how their new New York locations are right next to all of our New York locations. And so, as we're expanding, we're kind of like inherently thinking about even if we're not in like the same four-wall building, we're

thinking about coteny because there are so many synergies and we want to make it easy for people to kind of get all of their wellness services. And, you know, we've explored a number of different

models. we had a popup in inside of a

models. we had a popup in inside of a kind of like a wellness food court um during COVID just you know as another way of expansion and had some great learnings from that and so you know I

think at the stage that we're at it's worth testing a lot of different options you know obviously the idea of some capital light expansion opportunities is attractive to any four-wall founder um

you know I don't think that changes the strategy that we'll have our you know continue to open our own locations but I do think it's interesting in terms of can we scale faster, can we, you know, get in different markets sooner and

things like that. So definitely very open to different partnerships and things like that. Particularly I think when you're, you know, I think one of the issues in the health care space, you know, kind of the more traditional healthc care space today is that doctors

don't talk to each other and practitioners don't talk to each other.

And so I think there's huge opportunity there. Um, we love working with

there. Um, we love working with functional medicine doctors and having our practitioners communicate. We have

great relationships with some of the top fertility doctors in New York and our practitioners communicate really directly with them. So I think whatever we can do to kind of lower those barriers would make a lot of sense. What

that looks like in practice is open for exploration and development.

Definitely. And whether it's folks that want to come to a studio, try acupuncture partnerships, the products, where would you point people to learn more? Anything

you want us to kind of check out? Yeah,

100%. We would love to welcome anyone who's acurious into one of our studios in New York. Um, or to try some of our products like our acupressure mat, which

it's kind of a similar experience to getting acupuncture itself. Ear seeds,

which is an acupressure tool that have been really trending. We have our own body cupping kits, but we have a special discount for Fit Insider listeners.

That's Fit Insider 25, which I know will be in the show description.

And then yeah, if you're interested in a corporate partnership or a travel and hospitality partnership or are an investor in the space that is

passionate about acupuncture and longevity, has experience with four-wall, would love to connect. Super

active on LinkedIn.

Perfect. We will make sure, like you said, everything's easy to find in the show notes. encourage folks to check you

show notes. encourage folks to check you out in person or reach out um if they're interested, but super grateful for the time today. Really enjoyed the

time today. Really enjoyed the conversation. So, thanks so much for

conversation. So, thanks so much for being here.

Thank you, Joe. This is fun.

Thanks for listening to today's episode.

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