33 Brutal Truths To Stop Wasting Your Potential - Alex Hormozi

Welcome back, man. Another speed running podcasting booty call.

That's the hope. Do more hard things every day is a great mantra, but it should be less about ice baths and more about making that decision you've been putting off for 3 months.

Yeah. Um, I think that there's been a big misconception around hard stuff, which is just that, um, like running a marathon necessarily means that you can have a hard conversation with your wife

um, by saying like, I do hard things.

Um, but those hard things don't necessarily generalize. And so I think

necessarily generalize. And so I think domain specificity is much more uh narrow unless you decide to generalize to an identity label of like I am the type of person who can do hard things because I ran this marathon or because I

do these ice baths and then as a result I can then generalize that label to other behaviors. Um but if you can make

other behaviors. Um but if you can make that label and identify with it then you don't need to run the marathon in order to do the hard thing. You just need the label. What are the hard things that

label. What are the hard things that people should be focusing on more? What

what are the step change function hard thing capacity skills that people should focus on more?

I think it's being cognizant of what what other what outside forces are influencing your behavior in a way that is aversive or against your goals. And

so if you're like, I want to start a business, but I am afraid of what other people will say, then it means that we are allowing those other people to control your behavior. And I think when you say it in really plain terms like

that, you're like, "Wow, I didn't know I was giving them that much power over my life." It's like, I am not doing this

life." It's like, I am not doing this because of them, which means they control me. And to me, like the hard

control me. And to me, like the hard thing is in some ways just not allowing that control to persist or to keep going. M it is interesting how many

going. M it is interesting how many people can do hard things physically but can't do hard things decisively.

I have so I have you know our security team and whatnot and this is a discussion that I've had with probably each of them at different times cuz we've seen combat and death and all that kind of stuff. Um, and what's funny is

that like the amount of risk that they are willing to put their physical bodies in, like literally their lives at stake, but then how that doesn't necessarily translate to being able to have a like

call it vulnerable conversation with a wife, spouse, lover, etc. Um, is just interesting. And this is again back to

interesting. And this is again back to like these things don't generalize. They

look good, but they do not mean the same thing.

It's weird that we publicly admire the obvious hard thing, even if that isn't the one that actually makes the biggest difference to people's life direction. It's not predictive of

life direction. It's not predictive of being a good friend. It's not predictive of being the best partner. It's not

predictive of being a successful business owner, but because it's more obvious, because it's more publicly laudable, uh, you can flex it online and

you can tell people, "I ran a marathon as opposed to when my partner asked me a difficult question, I didn't shy away from it. I

told them the truth."

And to be clear, I think that those things are laudable in and of themselves. Like, you go fight a war,

themselves. Like, you go fight a war, you go do like you go run a marathon. I

think all of those things are are praiseworthy. It's just the

praiseworthy. It's just the generalizable component of that hard being, oh, I can do all hard things, is really the the misconception. But I do think that if

misconception. But I do think that if you if for whatever reason you tell yourself a narrative that you because because you did this hard thing, you can do all hard things, then that's amazing.

And by all means, if someone's like, I started doing jiu-jitsu and it completely changed my life, it's like that's awesome. But it probably isn't

that's awesome. But it probably isn't because you learned how to do guard better. Uh it's probably because like

better. Uh it's probably because like what guard what learning to do guard meant for you changed these other series of behaviors down the line. How

correlative do you think it is people that do hard things physically versus people who develop the capacity to do hard things that matter?

Can you re say that again?

Let's say that doing hard things electively versus doing hard things decisively. The big difference between

decisively. The big difference between the two to me seems to be decisions that require emotion and decisions that require effort.

That seems to be one of the big delineations here.

So, so it's like the call it hard conversation versus hard physical task.

Yeah. And how many people who develop the skill to do hard physical tasks as a transformation, how many of those do you think carry over into being able to do the hard thing emotionally?

Probably the same in the opposite direction. The guys who are like can

direction. The guys who are like can have quote hard conversations with the attorney who can get through all these complex ideas and have whatever then sucks on at jiu-jitsu or sucks at in the

weight room or doesn't try hard. I think

um I just think that skills are more specific unless you generalize them.

How do you generalize? I think it's it's it's creating labels on identity with personality. And so if we if we if we

personality. And so if we if we if we ident if we define personality by um the aggregate of how you behave in all conditions, right? So all these

conditions, right? So all these conditions, how you act is your personality. The label we ascribe to

personality. The label we ascribe to that personality would then be the identity.

And so if we decide to change that label, then that label, this is getting a little technical, but basically becomes a global reinforcer for your behavior. Like I am this, I am honest.

behavior. Like I am this, I am honest.

And so we make this label and then honest has a lot of subbehaviors underneath of it that we then act because we believe that honest is good.

And so we want to act in accordance with this global reinforcer for ourselves.

And so when we enter a new situation we think okay what is in alignment? What

behavior is most aligned with this label and then we do that and then when we don't do when we don't act that way then we feel guilty because we broke our own rules of behavior. So the big lesson

here is just because you're doing hard things in one domain does not mean that it crosses over into all domains unless you purposefully try to make your identity wrapped up around it.

A thousand%. I said when when I um I remember when I went to college my uh I I wanted to pledge a fraternity and it was in the SEC and they're known for for

hazing and whatnot. And so I I called my dad and I was like, "Hey, this might be like bad. I might have to go through

like bad. I might have to go through some stuff that's hard. I don't know.

And you know one my dad's given me a lot of lasting gifts but one of them he said think about every hard thing that you've gone through up until this point. He's

like there is nothing that they can do to you that is worse than that.

And that actually was incredibly empowering. And I I remember when there

empowering. And I I remember when there were more hardships that were going on I just immediately went to the worst things that I had gone through and I was like oh my god this is nothing. So, I

was able to like go through this relatively hard thing where there were people who were like cracking and crying and all this stuff. Like I want to say grown men, but I would say adult boys.

Uh next to me. Um and I was able to stand tall cuz it was just like there's nothing that these other 21-year-old guys can do to me that has I have not suffered through.

It's a good justification for doing hard things. That Rogan's got this line, the

things. That Rogan's got this line, the worst thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing that's ever happened to you.

Yeah.

And if the worst thing that's ever happened to you is somebody misspelling your name on a Starbucks cup.

Yeah. That's a big deal.

But if the worst thing that's ever happened to you is a thousand times worse than that, I think one problem we have is recency bias that if you haven't been through a tough time right now,

your memory of being able to deal with hard things, you kind of get velvet prison syndrome and uh sometimes you can forget. You're

like, I guess chicks would say I'm still that [ __ ] of I'm, you know, like I'm I've still got that capacity. Uh

sometimes we forget.

Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the strongest frames that has gotten me through those harder times is that this is the story I will one day tell. And so it just like almost the more bad things that happen, it's like the more epic the story

becomes. And so I mean, and the main

becomes. And so I mean, and the main beneficiary of the stories that we tell is ourselves because we're the we're the the giver and the receiver of most of the stories by by percentage of stories told. We are we are the biggest receiver

told. We are we are the biggest receiver of the stories. And so I think that's that's actually been I think just such a powerful frame for like of course this this terrible thing will happen and like doesn't that make the story so much better?

Yeah. What's cool is I think when you say we're talking a narrative, story, personification, arc, hero's journey, it all sounds kind of wishful in a way,

mythological irrational uh, symbolic, but that's the way that humans brains work. like we work in

story and even if it's not strictly the way that the neuroscience behind how the medial prefrontal lateral cortex works in order

to make us a tougher person. If you are the kind of person that tells yourself the story that you're the kind of person that can get through this, that is functionally exactly what you're

chasing. Like what you're after is the

chasing. Like what you're after is the story. And by putting that on the front

story. And by putting that on the front end and going, "Okay, I'm just going to keep on building stories that I'm going to refer back to in future." I think you're actually being more direct than if you were trying to

take a more rational view of exactly how behavior is put together. Like the story is the rational view of how your behavior and your identity are put together.

There's a lot there. Um I think like with the neuroscience and the and the brain labeling and all that stuff, I have no idea. So that's that's above my pay grade. Um, but yeah, I just think

pay grade. Um, but yeah, I just think about all of our all of our behavior is just in aggregate. We do what we've been rewarded for doing and it doesn't mean we get a cookie. It could also mean a bad thing goes away. There's there a lot

of different types of reward. Um, and so if we remember a story, um, so like let's say you have that story of you went through this hard thing and then you survived, then it basically serves

as a reminder of the reinforcer of the behaviors you did to get through it. And

so it's almost like um with a kid who's smaller, if you're like, "Hey, remember last time you did this? You got ice cream." Um if you remind them of that

cream." Um if you remind them of that reward, then they're more likely to repeat the behavior. And so I think we basically use that narrative as a reminder to in the short term increase the relative value of a reinforcer. And

so if we think about like what is motivation in general, that's functionally what you're doing if you motivate someone. Like if you sell

motivate someone. Like if you sell someone something for the short term, you increase the relative value of a specific reinforcer. didn't wake up uh

specific reinforcer. didn't wake up uh wanting to buy cologne, but you see an ad and for the short period of time that the ad goes on, it increases the relative value of smelling good. Uh and

so as a result, it changes your behavior and then you buy. And so I think stories function that same way where we use them to motivate ourselves in the short term to do the desired behavior that might be less comfortable in the short term, but

we're reminded about the larger reinforcing event that we had in the past. How many people do you think are

past. How many people do you think are doing hard things publicly in order to not need to face the lack of capacity they have to do hard things privately?

I don't know them. So I don't know to be honest with you. That's my honest answer. I don't know. I think some

answer. I don't know. I think some people really do hard things and it's what they capture online is a fraction of what they really do. And I think there are people who 100% of the hard things they do are online and they're not even that hard% of the hard things they do.

Yeah. And they're not even that hard because they've got a squad of people behind them. Like I always I I can think

behind them. Like I always I I can think there was a meme around this for a moment that was like but you had a camera there.

It's like girl collapses because of crazy news or something like that. It's

like but you had a camera there. And so

you so there's just this this you know this element of you know mistrust performative nature.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The three-step process of how to win.

Number one realize no one is coming to save you. Number two take responsibility

save you. Number two take responsibility for your current position. Number three,

be willing to sacrifice who you are for who you want to be.

I think that those three is really all about power. Um, and the realization so

about power. Um, and the realization so the probably in sequence probably the first one should come first, which is you own everything. It's like, okay, if I own everything, then you can still

hope that someone saves you, but it still relies on someone else to change your condition. And so it's like, okay,

your condition. And so it's like, okay, I own all these outcomes. Um I'm not going to rely on someone else to change my condition. But you're still there,

my condition. But you're still there, which means you have to take the third step, which is that I have to sacrifice.

They have to give up um something in order to get something else. And I think I think where people actually stay stuck the longest in their careers from an entrepreneurship perspective or just from a personal development perspective

is um the trades that we are unwilling to make is basically the desire to have everything at the same time. And and the easiest analogy I have is like

it is totally reasonable to want to have a mountain view and be on the beach and be walking distance from a Whole Foods.

Um but you probably will not find a place that has all three of those because they are all at apparent contradictions

or you know apparent odds. And so there but so so what happens is we just stay in this paralysis of indecision because we feel like all paths are settling and I think there's this

movement or narrative around like never settle and things like that but people mistake never settle for never make trades and so we have this obsession with optionality or optionality maxing

but options are only valuable when taken and so when we never take the option which means we don't cash in the option that we have available. Um like some options need to be taken and when they

are taken other options disappear because just having maximum potential does not mean maximum reality because you need to commit.

You have to commit which is the elimination of alternatives.

And so like there I mean show me anything that was worth doing that did not require commitment which is an elimination of alternatives a trade-off.

Um, and so in the beginning of our lives when we're younger, we are we are praised for maximizing our potential, right? How can we have as many colleges

right? How can we have as many colleges accept us? How can we have all the best

accept us? How can we have all the best grades? How can we have all the paths in

grades? How can we have all the paths in front of us? But I think many people know people who are really successful earlier on by for maximizing potential but not realizing potential. And I think

the gap between the maximization of potential and the realization of potential is the commitments that we're willing to make, which is the trades, the elimination of the alternatives when we have to start cashing those options in and realizing that some of them are are never going to come to fruition

because we could only have one life and some of those trades are permanent.

You can only not have a kid until you have a kid and then at that point you have, right? There's no going back,

have, right? There's no going back, right? Um, you know, some decisions in

right? Um, you know, some decisions in life don't have refunds. Um, and and I I I think I think that is what I would say maybe in the earlier part of my my career, especially single guys, cuz I

think a lot of that's like really prevalent in social media right now. Um,

is just options maxing.

Um, but we just even even in the attempt to options max, you still close off other options, which is that like you will not have the benefits of let's say a committed marriage early on because you've kept your

options open, right? And like you will not have the

right? And like you will not have the benefits of like a very large business if you try to pursue five or don't pursue any because you want to not make commitments. And so I think

that commitment is actually a really strong signal for maturation and growing up.

Lots of mistakes were made by standing still. Like people think that in action

still. Like people think that in action isn't a decision but it is.

Totally. I mean your conditions change through in action still like doors close. uh there are moments where you

close. uh there are moments where you have opportunities where you have to act or they will go away. Um and so I think it's like being able to seize those opportunities and that means that you have to

actively say no to something that you might want or might want a lot. And I

think those are the trades that we I think I think being willing to make those trade-offs clearly and trade them for the things that you want more um is how people can progress through life and and get more of what they want.

The pain of having to accept trade-offs holds a lot of people back 100%. and then they end up getting

100%. and then they end up getting nothing. And I think that I honestly

nothing. And I think that I honestly think that is like at the crux of why so many people are not realizing any potential at all. Um is because they are unwilling to make any trade and then

make the biggest trade of all.

How do you think about overcoming that decision paralysis? Lots of good options

decision paralysis? Lots of good options in front of you. Spent a lot of time trying to maximize surface area of of available options. And it's insane to

available options. And it's insane to say, but it's functionally true for humans that more options make you more miserable, not happier.

Super true. And also, we probably know someone, I mean, I can think of people off the top of my head that didn't have many options, but the option that they had was very clear. Like this guy is a

super nerd and just loves coding and it was very clear straight on. And so there was a lot of things that weren't available to him physically. probably

wasn't going to be the sports star, maybe even in super great shape.

But like it was almost like that path was predetermined. But then when you

was predetermined. But then when you fast forward, it's not like they're less successful. It's that because they just

successful. It's that because they just already knew what they were going to do.

They got to start pulling the future forward down the one path and start walking. And so there's again this this

walking. And so there's again this this like fetish fetishization of having options and seeing that as a proxy for status when the reality is that you they're all blank checks. You haven't

cashed any of them in.

Yeah. And so, um, I think the original question ladders to like people get stuck because they don't know what they want. And I define what you want by what you're willing to sacrifice

to get something.

Take responsibility for your current position. What's that mean?

position. What's that mean?

Um, it's identifying yourself as source.

And to be clear, it doesn't mean that like your position in reality is 100% because of you, but from a so this is a validity. This is a uh invalid but

validity. This is a uh invalid but useful more useful way of going through life which is that it absolutely might not be your fault but it is still your problem.

Mhm.

Since you are the only one who you can influence directly than you are the one who is source and because like you could still be correct in saying that like because I insert grievance insert you

know trauma insert genetic predisposition insert zip code I was born in um or language or poverty level or whatever it is. Um, all of those things could be true and yet you still

have to take action as the only source that can change it.

Mhm. No one's coming to save you.

Yeah. Which goes back to the first one.

The interesting thing about no one is coming to save you also means no one is coming to stop you.

I think some people might I think actually as good as you start I think the the lobster or crab analogy in the bucket is in is so true. I actually

think that the the hardest I mean I I think I mean for me again like the hardest part of entrepreneurship was the first set of friends that you have to relinquish because once you do it the first time you realize that you will still survive, you'll still make it through. You'll find new friends, but

through. You'll find new friends, but like in the first time it's it's sacrificing everything you've known and loved for something that you've never experienced and hope will happen and have no idea if it actually will. So the

cost is known, the payoff isn't. And

that is why I think it is the riskiest and why so many people struggle to make the job.

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The world will reward you in proportion to your courage, not your intellect. The

most dangerous person in the world is the one who continues to show up every day, even when the rewards are not guaranteed. Your potential is determined

guaranteed. Your potential is determined by the amount of uncertainty you're able to tolerate and how long you can tolerate it for. You can beat 99% of people if you can master the shame of

rejection, the bord of repetition, and the pain of feedback.

I was asked um if you could transfer only one trade to your son, what would it be? Um

and I really thought a lot about it. I

was like all the trades, what would I tra what I would transfer? And I think it's courage because if you don't have courage, nothing else matters. Like you can't

take the you can't take any action. You

can't do anything worth doing. You can't

stand for anything because you have no courage. Um,

courage. Um, and so I think that's why it's it's so much more preferable to be a failure than a coward. And I think that I would hope that I could transfer just that

lesson and try and reinforce as many times as I can in his upbringing that like you have to you have to take jumps and you have to lose and you have to be

willing to lose and then realize that losing doesn't actually make you a loser because losing is the is the is the first signal on the path to winning but

like not playing is the actual signal for for a forever loss. What is courage to you?

It's a really good question.

I need to define it better. Um,

being willing to take action where there's a large short-term cost

with an uncertain delayed benefit.

So, if you want to start a business and you think that you're going to get made fun of or snide remarks or like, "Oh, yeah, you're doing your podcast thing again. Oh, yeah. Don't don't don't miss

again. Oh, yeah. Don't don't don't miss out, right? You know, don't want to miss

out, right? You know, don't want to miss Friday night. It's a big podcast." Um,

Friday night. It's a big podcast." Um,

you know, you're going to suffer that short term. That's a known cost. And

short term. That's a known cost. And

then the payoff is delayed and uncertain. Like not only will it come

uncertain. Like not only will it come later, if it were guaranteed if you knew you were going to make a million dollars doing a podcast, then you'd be like whatever, [ __ ] it. Like it it takes significantly less courage, but I think

it's the fact that it is unknown and delayed. So you basically have to be

delayed. So you basically have to be willing to get kicked in the nuts and multiple times and sometimes for extended durations before the hope that you will get

something. But I think the only way to

something. But I think the only way to to to get through that kind of kicked in the nuts period for however long it's going to be um is realizing that you

have two paths. One that is guaranteed which is that the path you're currently on will not get you where you want to go. And the other path it is not

go. And the other path it is not guaranteed to get you where you want to go but it's the only one where you have a shot where you do. And that's where your potential is determined by the amount of uncertainty you're able to tolerate and how long you

can tolerate it for.

And I think that also goes to the bigger the games we play, right? That like the longer the game you play, the bigger the game you play. And so if you want to create rockets that go to the moon, you have to be able to deal with uncertainty

for just an absolutely absurd amount of time compared to most humans on any endeavor.

There's a line at the end, pain of feedback.

I'm interested in that.

Um I mean rejection hurts. Uh failing

hurts. And I think when you when you when you give it your all and then the market, society, the universe, whatever determines that you

are still not enough, that is very painful. Um I think that in time

painful. Um I think that in time you learn that feedback is fuel rather than failure. And once that new

than failure. And once that new association gets paired, I mean, you've had plenty of incredibly successful people on this podcast and I would say many of them have the same kind of I would call it lesson is like it's not

it's not failure, it's feedback or it's not failure. Um, but it just means that

not failure. Um, but it just means that like fundamentally they have a different pairing for losing. And so everyone has to go through this because like

like losing losing is good and feeling bad about losing is good because it forces you to change and that change means that over time as long as you're changing in the correct direction you get better

or else you would continue to do the strategy that caused you to lose last time and you would just run it back again. And this is why I have this like

again. And this is why I have this like I I thought on the way over here I was thinking about this and um like I think one of the big

losses or failures of society right now is that we are trying to castrate the teeth from the pain of loss. We're

trying to not allow kids people the feeling to feel bad.

It's like we have determined that feeling bad is bad but feeling bad is not bad. Feeling bad is a signal. So

not bad. Feeling bad is a signal. So

that we need to change because if no one feels bad ever then it means that everyone is doing what they want to do all the time and that is not how a functioning society works. Sometimes

people do stupid [ __ ] and need to know and feel bad for it.

Eventually reality is going to come into contact with your decisions. Yes.

And the more that that's put off the less likely you are to come up with a way to avoid that reality coming into reality. And so, so the way that you

reality. And so, so the way that you know right now what's going and this is probably the the more frightening part about like some of the media that's out there is like trying to just redefine

reality and create a fantasy where you losing and you feeling bad isn't true. But it doesn't change reality. It

true. But it doesn't change reality. It

just changes someone's perception of it for the short term and then they have to pay reality back with interest in time and like the check always comes due.

It's just like the interest is much bigger. And so um in light of you know

bigger. And so um in light of you know my son my child that I have in the future like I want him to experience the

pain of loss so that he can learn cuz like how else can you learn? You have to otherwise it's just it's everything's quote you know going by feeling and then also somehow thinking that feeling bad

is bad and also that feeling good is good and there's tons of things that you can probably do that feel good that are not good and there's tons of things that you can do that feel bad that are not bad.

Well, what a gift to give somebody to say you can feel bad and not feel bad about it.

Yeah. It's and like and that's okay.

Like you lost. What will we learn? what

will we do next time? Great. Do it again next.

It feels like resilience.

Yeah.

As opposed to any time that you feel this emotion which is negative that is worthy of rushing in and panic and control and distance that that's almost

like a formula for fragility.

So laddered onto this I know we haven't talked about so this is this is fun. um

is the idea that we need to like that because you because you feel bad, it means that the path that you're on like you need to change something. And so

it's equal opposite which is like okay if we know that we're on the path of getting kicked in the nuts right now and I know I'm on my 17th or 100th podcast and I'm still not like a millionaire yet.

I I have not achieved what I want yet.

It does not mean that I have to change course.

But earlier on you said that bad feelings, feeling bad are important to update the way that you're approaching this situation. So how do you distinguish between the two?

No. And that's and that's u and I would say what you what you hit on is is the is the crux of it which is judgment which is like and this is one of the hardest ones is like how do you help someone recognize patterns of

when you need to basically it's the internal question of when do I push and when do I pivot, right? When do I push through the hardship versus when do I adjust? Am I giving up on this set in

adjust? Am I giving up on this set in the gym because I'm being a [ __ ] or am I giving up because I'm about to injure myself?

Yeah. And so pivot. I like that.

Yeah. And I' and I've worked with this a lot because it's a pretty classic entrepreneurship issue of like do I have product market fit or like do I need to just keep pushing you like you know where am I just trying to push up a hill? Um is that if one of the

hill? Um is that if one of the fundamental assumptions that you began your quest with has been proven untrue based on the feedback then that is where pivoting makes sense. So, if you said

like, I think that I'm going to create um a doggy skateboard because I think that um a lot of dog owners will want to buy skateboards for their dog. Um would

be like, and I believe that the percentage like and I want to make a, you know, a billion dollars doing this.

Um that would mean that there's this size of the market. This percentage

needs to be the take rate in order for me to get that that market share. It's

like, okay, if if I talk to a hundred dog owners and none of them want to buy my my doggy skateboard, I would not say that is a push situation. I would say that is a pivot situation because our fundamental assumption that we started

this quest with is false.

And so we need to take that feedback and then pivot.

If as we're going through they're saying uh maybe but like I don't know what you have in your hands. What the hell is that? So it's like the assumption is not

that? So it's like the assumption is not proven but it's more of an execution issue. And so it's like okay I just need

issue. And so it's like okay I just need to get better. I need to push through.

But it's like it is definitely one of the harder um lines to to know like where when should I push when should I pivot? Uh, what lesson do I learn from

pivot? Uh, what lesson do I learn from losing?

M because losing losing teaches you [ __ ] and we just need to make sure that we learn the right thing.

Like teaching will occur.

Yes. Whether you take it away or not is up to you.

It's the It's the um I I hired my first employee and he was a [ __ ] Therefore, all employees suck, right? So like

losing will teach you something. It's

just want to make sure that we learn the right lesson. I feel like this is a

right lesson. I feel like this is a justification for making early decisions as right as possible.

Oh, 100%.

To try and avoid that PTSD of it's far easier to learn something than it is to unlearn something. Probably a hundred

unlearn something. Probably a hundred times easier to learn something than it is to unlearn something. If you've

drilled a particular habit, a particular bad habit, if you have come up with a a mode of interacting with your employees or the world, because all of your employees, the first three employees, you get all of them [ __ ] you over and

then finally you get to the fourth, you have to unlearn all of the compensatory mechanisms that you built on the first three. Now that you've got someone who's

three. Now that you've got someone who's worthy of that, and you're restricting their progress, you're slowing everything down. You're being

everything down. You're being hypervigilant. It doesn't feel like a

hypervigilant. It doesn't feel like a good place to work. Try and make your early decisions, right?

Yeah. Changing a behavior with a long history of reinforcement is harder than changing one with no history of it's such a hardcore behaviorist.

Yeah. Well, I mean it's the only thing that's made sense to me in the world.

Like it's I mean it's been upheld.

I mean it's just I don't even it's just my reality. So I'll say differently like

my reality. So I'll say differently like many people do not get what they want.

They look up at their lives and they're like this is not what I want. And so if you don't have what you want, it means that the model that you view the world through is incorrect or you have the correct model and the incorrect variables or insufficient variables.

It's basically all it is.

And so for me, the more I have looked purely at inputs and outputs, the more I've gotten my predictions correct. And

so I have been super reinforced for using this style of of of thinking. And

so I do it more. And so it's just and like I I I I read some of my old stuff and I'm like, "Oh man, like I could have said this in half as much words if I now I because it's understanding why. Like

at the most basic level, it's just understanding why." Um I'll give an

understanding why." Um I'll give an example and I think this is why the vast majority of the world like walks around confused, which is I don't have what I want. That didn't go the way I expected.

want. That didn't go the way I expected.

She took that worse than I thought. So

you're you're constantly surprised by reality. And so in in a simple sentence

reality. And so in in a simple sentence like Johnny stole because he's dishonest, right? Most people would nod

dishonest, right? Most people would nod their heads and be like, "Yeah, Johnny stole because he's dishonest." But we say, "What does dishonest mean?"

Dishonest means it's a label, right, that we ascribe to somebody who does a series of different behaviors, one of which is stealing. And so if we were to restate that sentence with a broken down definition, it would then be Johnny

stole because he's the type of person who steals, which is circular and makes no sense because the real reason that Johnny stole is because he's been reinforced for stealing in the past or he saw

someone who got reinforced for stealing and then modeled their behavior. That is

why Johnny stole.

And so because of that basic misunderstanding, most people have these words that they use to explain their reality that they don't actually understand. And as a result, reality

understand. And as a result, reality fools them more often than it should. he

was rewarded for it or he was punished for doing the opposite of it.

Exactly. And so um that basic that like and that what I just explained is is the difference between description and explanation. Um which is relatively

explanation. Um which is relatively heady and I think difficult sometimes to grasp but is at the most basic level like my worldview.

This is what happened. This is why it happened.

Why? Yeah. And so from that one kind of basic understanding everything else can kind of pretty much get laded up. And

so um said differently, if if I wanted to tell a child, get good at basketball, right?

Um, I would not tell him, get better at basketball, because a 5-year-old would be like, I don't know how to do that.

What does that mean? So, I'd be like, okay, well, let's break it down. We've

got dribbling, passing, shooting. Okay,

do that a little bit closer, but they still probably don't know how to. If I

say, "Go get better at dribbling, passing, and shooting." Still can't do anything with that until eventually be like, "Okay, passing. So, I want you to take a step with your left foot towards the the person, and I want you to extend

your elbows and finish with your thumbs down. Um, and if the ball goes towards

down. Um, and if the ball goes towards them in the direction that they're running, and they catch it, you've passed successfully." And then I would

passed successfully." And then I would repeat that chain of events until eventually they would understand that that chain of behaviors equals passing.

And if they do it a lot and they hit the target many times, they would be good at passing. And we'd repeat that all the

passing. And we'd repeat that all the way down until they're good at passing, dribbling, shooting, etc. and then eventually would describe them as a good basketball player. But that basic

basketball player. But that basic unbundling and rebundling of terms is why I think the vast majority of people are wildly um confused by what's going on around them is that someone says,

"Why don't you love me?" And he's like, "What are you talking about?" He's like, "I pay the bills. I take out the trash.

Like, you know, like what do you want from me?" And she says, "Uh, like you

from me?" And she says, "Uh, like you don't tell me I'm pretty. You don't hug me. uh like you don't listen to me when

me. uh like you don't listen to me when I when I you don't never never ask me how my day is going. And it's because for her she defines love in these behaviors and he defines love in these behaviors and so then they fight forever

rather than just saying like what does that mean? What does that mean? Um we

that mean? What does that mean? Um we

had uh we had two employees that were arguing about something uh at acquisition and one was like hey can you um I would be fine if you were just like kind and polite to me and um I was like

okay what does that mean? And uh there was obviously a moment of like hesitation there cuz it's like okay so you want the other person to guess what you think in your mind means good behavior but you've never articulated it and so you want them to guess and

somehow get it right.

Mhm. And so finally it just was like can you ask more questions rather than making more statements and the other person was like yeah sure it's like great but that basic thing now and they're fine now and everything's great

and so but like this is why I I view the world and behavior because I have wanted things but I didn't know how to get them which is happens in reality and so as

long as I live in reality I prefer to define things through reality and then reality tends to behave far more as I predicted it Ward. Before we continue, most people in their 30s are still

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you. It's that Neil Strauss line, unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments, right?

You do this thing that I didn't tell you to do.

Yeah, probably not deliberately because I think a lot of people do it, not on purpose, of course, but it's a unconscious premeditated resentment. The the

premeditated resentment. The the investment that you are making will be a resentment in future that you aren't aware is about to come about.

Yeah.

Another thing on the uh people's map of reality is inaccurate. I think one of the most obvious realizations that you can have when you hear somebody who

complains a lot is that their framework of reality is incorrect.

Oh, by a mile.

A complaint is you saying, "Why is reality not delivering that to me which I anticipated?"

I anticipated?" And reality doesn't care. Reality is

just going to continue to deliver to you that which it is giving.

Why is there all of this traffic on the way to work? There shouldn't be all of this traffic. I didn't anticipate all of

this traffic. I didn't anticipate all of this traffic.

Yeah. I assumed there wouldn't be traffic. Reality disagreed with me.

traffic. Reality disagreed with me.

Reality is not wrong.

It's undefeated.

Reality is undefeated. Yeah, it's a million and0. A million TKOs's.

million and0. A million TKOs's.

So, this is really I mean I can talk about this as long as you want. You know this. Um,

want. You know this. Um,

so what what this becomes really interesting is um how often this misconception of reality causes people to get fooled and keep pe

keep the wrong people in their lives and keep sometimes the right people out of their lives. And so um I call this uh

their lives. And so um I call this uh malicious benefit or um well-intentioned

harm. And so on one hand uh

harm. And so on one hand uh if there are a number of people who make let's say negative videos about you,

they intend to harm you.

But when you look at your media and the way that you are compensated through the impressions that you earn and the amount of relevance that you have, you make

more money. And so though they intended

more money. And so though they intended to hurt you, they have taken their time and effort which you normally have to pay people for and then for free promote

you. What a gift. It just means that

you. What a gift. It just means that they are incompetent at doing harm, which is wonderful. You want all your enemies to be incompetent in their harming. On the other hand, you have

harming. On the other hand, you have somebody who loves, I'll use this in quotes, right? Loves you, uh, means you

quotes, right? Loves you, uh, means you well, but is also incompetent. And as a result, whenever they enter your life, your life gets worse. They cause

negative consequences to occur. And so,

a lot of people care a huge amount about intention. And this was one of the

intention. And this was one of the larger shifts that I think happened in my I'll call it career, but just my life um was completely stripping people of

their intentions and only looking at their outputs. And that made navigating

their outputs. And that made navigating relationships significantly easier for me because it allowed me to remove the

noise from the signal of the person. And

so there are some people like I mean honestly the reason that one of the this is like probably the very beginning of this kind of thought change was with Ila like I had an adviser if you want to

call it that at the time and I was like I'm not sure if I I want to marry this girl. I don't, you know, help me, you

girl. I don't, you know, help me, you know, make this decision. And he said, "Well, just look at your stats." He's

like, "Are you in better shape?" And I was like, "Well, yeah. You know, she eats healthy and she goes to the gym, so I you know, I go with her." And he's like, "Okay." Um, so you're you you're

like, "Okay." Um, so you're you you're exercising more, you're eating better.

Okay. Are you drinking as much? He's

like, "No, she doesn't really drink."

And I like drinking. I'm probably a bad influencer.

He's like, "Okay." So she decreases this kind of negative thing. Okay, got it.

And he's like, "What about what about business wise?" I like, "Oh, I'm making

business wise?" I like, "Oh, I'm making more than I've ever made." And she's helping me do that. He's like, "Okay."

And so he just went down the list of all these different kind of components of my life that I could measure. And he's

like, "It seems like your life is significantly better with this person in it." Um, and when I contrast that to

it." Um, and when I contrast that to some of the call relationships I had in the past, it was almost the opposite.

Like I would get into the relationship and all of a sudden like I wouldn't work out as much and I wouldn't eat as healthy and I would go out more and uh my business would suffer. Um, and so like all the things that I cared about would go down. And so even though I don't think that person had any

malicious intent, I think they had good intent, but they had well-intentioned harm. And so

harm. And so that that that lens has helped me make so many decisions in in a way that removes a lot of the emotional weight behind them, which is like, oh, I I absolutely believe that you are a

well-intentioned person. I was like, I

well-intentioned person. I was like, I just think you're very incompetent at doing at doing good for me. Like, you do not have the skill to help me. I'm not

prepared to be the collateral damage of your good intentioned errors.

Yes. Um as you spin around trying to give me a hug, but by accident punch me in the face.

Yes. Like it's you're driving down the street and because you didn't mean to but weren't paying attention, you ran somebody over. Functionally, the

somebody over. Functionally, the difference between that person being dead because you didn't mean to cuz you were texting on your phone or because you're a bad driver and you swerving off

the street to hit them, the outcome is the same. And this is something that our

the same. And this is something that our society actively disagrees with because if we look at how our laws are written, we try to tease out intention and we change punishment and consequences based

on intention. Is that not important to a

on intention. Is that not important to a degree?

It can be, but I'm just more saying um I'm not saying should or shouldn't, but I'm saying in terms of how you navigate getting what you want out of life, if you were the one who got hit, you're

dead either way. Mhm.

And so when any n equals 1, I would look at the signal, what happens rather than the intention 100 times out of 100.

Is there any space? It sounds like uh for as long as this person in my life benefits me.

Mhm.

It's good to keep them in and the moment that they stop benefiting me, then I get rid of them.

Mhm.

To some people that would come across as a very transactional view of relationships. I think it assumes a

relationships. I think it assumes a binary of benefit, not benefit. And most

people have many things that they do.

Like let's say somebody, let's say you're like, I'm married to somebody.

What happens when that person stops serving me? Well, it's very unlikely

serving me? Well, it's very unlikely that tomorrow someone stop goes from I help you in these hundred ways to I either hurt you or help you in zero.

It's more common or more likely that you had a hundred ways and now 10 years later they help you 70 ways and maybe 10 years later they help you 40 ways. But

if you're at least cognizant of the hundred ways that that person helps you, then it allows you to articulate, hey, when you do these things, it helps me a lot. It would really mean a lot to me.

lot. It would really mean a lot to me.

Um, reinforcement again.

Yeah. I mean, and and and I appreciate the the Yes. Um um but like in different terms, I was going to I was going to put my my Chris hat on. This is

just good communication, right? Like how

do I know what you want until you tell me? And I think that people say what you

me? And I think that people say what you just said, which is um people would see this as transactional. And then I would say and yes and why is this wrong? Why have you

decided that having an exchange is incorrect? It's how society works. All

incorrect? It's how society works. All

of capitalism, which is the best societies have been built on exchange, voluntary exchange.

I think some people would feel icky about applying that exchange capitalism dynamic inside of friendships and intimate relationships.

I think that exchange happens either way. They just don't want to say it. If

way. They just don't want to say it. If

if you have a friend and you are like ah we're we're ride or die. It means you have a long history of reinforcement which means you have a long extinction curve. It just means that you've been

curve. It just means that you've been reinforced many times for this friendship which means that you're willing to deal with blips but the amount of blips that you're willing to deal with is proportional to the history of reinforcement. If someone new comes

of reinforcement. If someone new comes into your life and has almost done nothing good and then does a blip, you don't have as much balance in the system.

Exactly. You have no reason to. So the

hope the basically the extinction curve is functionally just how long you're willing to hope that the good thing comes back.

You probably should have a degree of recency bias though.

Oh yeah. Because if the person's behavior is change Yeah. for sure it's going to be it's always discounted.

Someone that was 50% a good guy and 50% an [ __ ] The 50% that is closest to you is more salient than the 50% that started 10 years ago.

Oh yeah. If it was front half back half, 100%. And that's and honestly and this

100%. And that's and honestly and this is like I think this is super relevant for a lot of people like people do change.

And that's okay. And you can be friends with the person they once were and no longer friends with the person they are.

And that's okay.

Mark Manson dropped this unreal line that reminded me of you.

Okay.

Do hard [ __ ] Not because it's fun, but because the win actually means something. You bled for it. You broke

something. You bled for it. You broke

for it. You earned it. Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you.

forgettable. Hard ones change you.

That's the point.

That's your line. Everything is hard and no one cares.

Um, I'm sorry accomplishing your dreams wasn't fast, easy, and risk-f free.

Like, they wouldn't be dreams if they were, and you wouldn't call them wins if they were easy, cuz they would just be you tying your shoes. And what was once a win when you were five is no longer a

win when you're competent. And with

increased competence comes increased stakes. You have to be willing to bet

stakes. You have to be willing to bet more, put more on the line to win bigger. Which means like if you're a

bigger. Which means like if you're a billionaire playing $10 hands of poker is a complete waste of time. Uh Gabe

from I Prevail. He's the drummer from I Prevail.

You will always think you suck. That's

okay. It's okay to suck compared to your standards. As you grow, so will your

standards. As you grow, so will your standards. That doesn't mean you

standards. That doesn't mean you actually suck.

Yeah. I think it just be the the actuality of sucking versus the perception of sucking.

Correct. It's that as as you increase in capacity, you increase in standards. And

given that your standards will always outstrip your capacity, there will always be this felt sense lack between where I am and where I want to be. But

yeah, that Mark Manson line I think is really important in sort of an era of AI because you can speedrun or shortcut

getting the outcome without putting in the requisite inputs. Now, because

everybody's obsessed with leverage and trying to get as many outputs from as few inputs as possible, that does make sense. But when you begin to fully

sense. But when you begin to fully detach it from it and you don't focus on the journey that got you there in the same way and you're not scrutinizing the

outputs with the same level of finitude and and resolution cost.

Yes.

Yes. And it's not just the outputs that matter. It's not just the output. And

matter. It's not just the output. And

this is where the sort of leverage crowd doesn't fully come into reality. It

doesn't come into contact with the way that humans are telling themselves the story of their life. If all if you could come up with some sort of super quick code that would write hundred million

dollar leads for you, the entire project would feel different.

Your process of getting that it could be word for word the exact same. Take every

word that I've written and create this book based on this brief. Think

Mhm.

I would prove that AI knew a lot about leads but not me. And I think that I mean um I think this this this sits at the discrepancy between saying the

output of your life is who you become and the aggregate set of behavior that you've learned over your life or if the output of your life is the stuff that you that exists as a

result of you being here. Um and that is more of a philosophical question than I think it is a like right or wrong. I

think you can make arguments for either side of like the p the purpose of your life is what changed as a result of you being here, what you did or who you became.

Yeah. Um or the purpose of your life is all of the outside only existed to change the inside. And I think there's there's arguments for both. I have I'm I would say I have strong affinity towards

both definition definitions because um I would say that when I go through harder times, I lean more towards like this is happening for me. And when I'm going through easier times, it's like I'm hap I I am happening to it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm happening to reality.

But the binary of that Yeah.

seeing it as only one or the other will create a kind of fragility. If all that you're focused on is outcomes, then you're never going to think about becoming the person who can generate those outcomes because you're going to find shortcuts that don't necessarily

work. And if you're only ever focused on

work. And if you're only ever focused on inputs, you're never going to actually work out if all of this suffering amounted to anything. Show me some George uh in the house last night was reading one of these books and he he

wasn't happy with the way that the author had put together the sentence and he says show me something I can drop on my foot.

That was his line. Like I can't drop anything on my [ __ ] foot with this.

Show me something I can drop on my foot.

Wishywashy vague language. Do you

remember the park bench scene in Goodwill Hunting?

No. I think it long enough ago. Yeah.

Sound of park bench. Robin Williams

talking to Matt Damon about love and he has this line. He says, "Love is an active commitment, Will. It's a choice to value someone else's well-being as much as your own." If you watch the

film, you'll know that he doesn't say that. He says this instead. You wouldn't

that. He says this instead. You wouldn't

know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for 2 months because the doctors could see in your eyes that the term visiting hours do not apply to you.

It's the same thing, same idea, right?

Idea, picture, words. And that is the order. Not idea, words, pictures. Show

order. Not idea, words, pictures. Show

me something I can drop on my [ __ ] foot.

That I can drop on my foot.

It's clear language.

Both of them. Both of the examples.

I think it's interesting because with the drop on your foot, it's like I think the the the picture is obviously like more emotive. Um,

more emotive. Um, and because of that can be more motivating, more persuasive, etc. Where I think the drop on drop on my foot part

where I like where where I have struggled as a human being is taking that idea and saying I want to do that.

I want that type of love. And then

saying, well, the person I love is not in the hospital and I don't have the opportunity right now to sleep standing up and have a doctor know that visiting hours don't apply to me.

What do I do?

And so then it does go back to um what I'm willing to give up in order to maintain something. But

maintain something. But it's interesting when there isn't that level of pressure.

You know, when you brush up against the grain of life, when you're swimming into the stream, it's very easy to see effort because the whole world is bearing down on you. So, there's an enemy to go up

on you. So, there's an enemy to go up against. I think when things are easy,

against. I think when things are easy, like, okay, well, what does love look like when things are easy? Uh, we

talking relational love. Yeah.

I think it's really, well, I'll just say more how I measure it. Um, but I think it's just what you're willing to give up in order to maintain something. And so

if I have a relationship and I have somebody that I love a lot that I'm willing to give up everything, including my life in order to maintain that relationship. Um,

relationship. Um, and so or for that person or for that idea, for freedom, for the country. Um,

if you love something a lot, you're willing to give up everything for it.

Um, and so when that person asks you to do something or doesn't ask you to do something and you think that they would still like it, then you are willing to inconvenience yourself to a large degree in order to

do that. Um, and I think that like the

do that. Um, and I think that like the reason this stuff is so valuable for me is that like it allows me to both give the things that I think the other person wants or

that they've told me they want, but also how to differentiate who is using words in order to try and manipulate me. when

someone like dude dude you know I love you know um if it was bromance obviously um but then you could say what have you given up in order to maintain this in

what way have you inconvenienced yourself uh in order to maintain this relationship because all of the actions you've taken you've taken out of convenience and this relationship has been only beneficial

for you which is fine there's nothing wrong with that but there will come a time where our needs are at odds and in that situation I would like to

know how reinforcing was all the other stuff so that it is worth basically it's saying like how much good was the good for you so that you're willing to deal with some bad can that lead to a

situation where you almost purposefully try to seek out difficulty in an attempt to stress test relationships because not all relationships should have it the

the glorious friendship would be seamless between you and another guy and there's never anything you have to navigate and it's all just beneficial and positive in both directions.

I have a friend like that. I've been

friends since sixth grade and I don't think we've ever had conflict which is great and rare and that's why we are so friends. Um but no, I think that it's

friends. Um but no, I think that it's it's okay for conflict to occur. It's

okay for seasons of friendship to end.

Um, but you can measure how how how good of friends you are by how and I don't know how much inconvenience he might be willing to deal with with me, but we just it just so happens that we really

haven't had any need for conflict or competition.

He's a an FBI agent and so his measures of success, like he has zero, there's no jealousy, there's no envy, there's no anything. It's just like, how many bad

anything. It's just like, how many bad guys you catch today? He's like, bro, you got to hear this one, right? And so

we can just and he's like, you know, then he'll just ask ridiculous questions about money stuff because he just thinks it's funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, and and that has worked out well.

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You're behind because you're in a rush.

And you're in a rush because you feel behind. and you feel behind because

behind. and you feel behind because you're in a different season than the people you're comparing yourself to.

You're not behind. You're just early.

Yeah. It's measuring the output difference with um without comparing the input difference.

I think it's basically it. It's like uh why isn't my podcast like Rogan's? It's

like okay well he's got 10 more year. I

don't you would know the the answer to that, right? 10 more years and however

that, right? 10 more years and however many more podcasts um more and so it's okay well if I were to match that and have done it back in time would I have the same would I be bigger

the same skill with the same all of that and so it's it's it's it's comparing outputs without comparing inputs and I really just think it comes down to that at the most basic level now most of the time um you are early

because most people who make that I would call it uh error in judgment are earlier in their careers and I also don't think there's anything necessarily wrong like a lot of people are like comparison is the thief of joy. Um, I

don't agree with that. I think

comparison is how you measure things.

Like this this this is the discrepancy.

Labeling the discrepancy as bad as the thief of joy.

Comparison in general is how you can know what the discrepancy looks like between what you want and what you have so that you can fix it.

So, we should compare. Absolutely. You

should compare yourself to Rogan. I'm

just using you. But like, you know, I should compare myself to Elon. Of

course, I should. Um, so I could look at the massive discrepancy between between me and Elon. Um, and that just gives me clarity on what things I need to do to

try and decrease that.

How do you think about getting rid of the label of bad?

I think that the first the first action you take when you have not been reinforced for an action you do through modeling. So, and

this is why we do these types of podcasts. I assume I mean is that if you

podcasts. I assume I mean is that if you haven't done the hard thing or the hard thing that you want to do or taking the bet or taking the risk, we look for other people who have been the penguins

who jumped off the edge first and was there an alligator. Well, no alligators for penguins, but polar bear at the bottom uh to to eat them or did they swim and get to the next iceberg and

then they found whatever. Um so we look at other people and so modeling is a very real way. That's how you learn everything when you're a child is you look at what other people do. Good

things happen to them. Okay, I'm going to do that. And so in the short term, we model the long-term play is that once you take that first step, ideally you don't get eaten by a polar bear and instead you also get a fish and then you

go up and then you get reinforced for that and then basically every moment after that is your own experience becomes the loop. But the first jump comes from looking at whatever everyone else does and then takes the jump. Now,

where that's so difficult to do is that you're looking what everyone else is doing or at least the people that you want to emulate, which is, you know, really important. Like, don't listen to

really important. Like, don't listen to the people closest to you. Listen to the people closest to your goals. Um, which

is not necessarily the same people, often not. Um, I want to listen to them.

often not. Um, I want to listen to them.

I want to look I want to model their behavior. Um, but then also still

behavior. Um, but then also still ignoring all of other people. So, it's

like I'm listening to these people. I'm

ignoring these people. But behavior is tough because you're still valuing other people a lot. Yeah. Um and so I think this is why so many I would say again I come from the entrepreneur side but like successful entrepreneurs have a very

first principles approach of thinking because at some point no one has gone to the moon and you just have to say like does physics prevent me from doing this and then when you reason everything from

the ground up um you're able to find discrepancies between what people believe and what's true and that's obviously where opportunity exists.

your David Deutsch pill with that. Does

physics prevent me from being able to achieve this? If not, then I just think

this? If not, then I just think possible. Yeah, it is possible. Yeah. I

possible. Yeah, it is possible. Yeah. I

think one of the reasons that these episodes resonate is that a lot of people who want to do things

aren't around people who know how to do them. And the harder the thing is that

them. And the harder the thing is that you're trying to achieve, the rarer it is to find people who are able to support you in the doing of it or and not even just support you, but give you

legitimate advice about how to get that.

I I 100% agree and this is something that I've I' I've struggled a lot with because the what gives you the credibility to gain media and attention is being exceptional in some domain most

of the time. And being exceptional in a domain makes you unrelatable.

And so it's kind of this very difficult uh catch 22 where credibility and relatability are inverse, right? And I but like to your point,

right? And I but like to your point, poor people are surrounded by other poor people and then assume that that is everyone because it's everyone they know, not everyone that exists, but it's their everyone as far as they're

concerned. And I think that's what makes

concerned. And I think that's what makes it so difficult in the beginning to to get out of that first bubble is because you have to look outside and look at some people who might even appear unrelatable and try and grasp at the

straws of their character, their origin story where again people could hear me say that I slept on the floor that I didn't have enough money, whatever. But

like they only see me not then. No one's

interviewing the gym owner who's sleeping on the floor who's going to someday become something because they don't know yet. That's your one regret or one of the regrets that I have that's the same as yours which is I didn't

track the early journey enough.

If anyone is listening to this I I I'm not a big advocate of regrets in general but like a behavior that I would have changed that I don't think would have changed the outcome is like document and

you don't have to share you don't have to share it publicly. Just take

pictures, take voice notes, email yourself, whatever whatever catalog you want. I remember one of the most

want. I remember one of the most important personal moments that I had was when I lost everything for the first time. Um, I screenshotted my bank

time. Um, I screenshotted my bank account. So, I went from having, you

account. So, I went from having, you know, six successful gyms to losing all of it and having $1,000 to my name. And

I remember looking at my bank account. I

was like, "Wow, that's what the bottom of the barrel looks like. That is," and I hadn't, you know, seen a number that low in a very, very, very long time. Even in

high school, I had more than that just cuz I had jobs and I didn't have expenses. And so, um, I screenshotted it

expenses. And so, um, I screenshotted it and it was this very cathartic moment for me because I was like, never again.

Like, I will not let this happen and I will have this be part of the story I tell. And I still have that screenshot

tell. And I still have that screenshot and I show it because like, so basically, you want to document it because you believe that you will be the hero that

will overcome. And I think that if you

will overcome. And I think that if you can if you can really just grasp it, like just beginning the documentation story, like even the fact that Kanye had some of those early videos, it's like he believed that he would make it and he believed he would use it. And so I think

one of the one of the greatest things you can do is and it was like it was almost like at that point like I I I believed when I took that screenshot that I was going to win and I did believe I was going to get it back.

Um and so the earlier you can have that realization that like I have to document this monster otherwise I won't be able to tell the story. And the story, the receiver of that story, the biggest

beneficiary of that story is you.

I wish I'd done the same. I wish that I'd done the same. You know,

all the way back in my previous life, there was a a period in my placement year, I would have been 20. I was living in Scotland. And one of the problems

in Scotland. And one of the problems that you have with running businesses in events, especially long single outcome events, is that it's all costs until you

finally get to cash in the revenue. And

there was a dwindling pot of money that we had because we were putting all of this time in and driving from Edinburgh to Glasgow to Sterling to Dundee to come back to hand out flyers, to manage the guest listers, to restock the bars with

the t-shirts, to sell the thing. And the

event wasn't going to happen for another month. And that just meant it was all

month. And that just meant it was all output. I needed to pay for my gym

output. I needed to pay for my gym membership and I needed to eat food and I needed to drive to these different places. Dwindled, dwindled, dwindled,

places. Dwindled, dwindled, dwindled, dwindled. And we're not going to get to

dwindled. And we're not going to get to withdraw this money until it happens.

And I had a friend who came to help me hand out flyers cuz my business partner needed to look after freshers week in Newcastle and I was going to look after freshers week across all of Scotland. I

had my friend who came up a bit of a rough dude but nice guy and he'd grown up in serious poverty in the northeast of the UK and this was the first time

that I was out of money zero zero money and I could have rung my parents and I'm sure that they would have sent me some cash but I had too much pride and I felt too ashamed to do it and there was this

moment where we were in this flat and uh Saki Hall Street in Edinburgh on the far side of Edinburgh uh sorry Dean Park Road Dean Park road on the other side of Edinburgh and I was saying, "Hey, man,

like I uh we're out of food in the house and I I don't know where we're going to get it from." He, "Oh, don't worry, man.

I'll just go and steal some."

And his background, his background from his upbringing was that when you run out of money, you go and steal food. And I

remember thinking, "Yeah, it's world.

I've got myself to the point in life where stealing food is a realistic decision." And that do I want to video

decision." And that do I want to video my friend Dean like stealing sandwiches from the Tesco around the corner?

Probably not. But the fact that that story only exists for me in my mind and then the only way that I can communicate the lessons that I took from it and the way that it made me feel is by having to

go through this retelling. Uh yeah,

capture [ __ ] especially in the beginning.

The worst case scenario is you delete it.

Like that's the I'm just saying for like what's the downside of doing it? The

downside of doing it is that you quote don't use it and that you delete it. But

the like the upside of having it as an artifact of kind of the stepping stones of of who you wanted to become I think is invaluable.

Everything looks like luck to the unskilled. Ignore them.

unskilled. Ignore them.

Yeah.

Um you have to have skill.

In order to perceive and recognize skill, you have to have a base level of skill. Now, you don't have to have the

skill. Now, you don't have to have the same level of skill as somebody else, but the greater skill you have in any domain, the more you appreciate the skill of somebody who's exceptional. So,

for example, if you don't understand the rules of basketball, it's just guys passing a ball around and you don't know who scores or how it works or why they're wearing different shirts. Like,

you have no understanding what's going on.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a great example of this.

No idea. Is that good? Is he Is the guy Is he winning?

Yeah. Yeah. Who's winning? Who's

winning?

Right. And then the And then the greater your skill, the greater your appreciation for how how good someone is at that thing.

Resolution, more dexterity.

100%. And so like for that reason, if if people who are around you as you begin to walk, you know, up the ascension of beginning to get successful, you have your first signs of life like, "Oh my

god, this might actually start working."

Um, and you get angry. Um, I'm only speaking from experience here. When

people attribute the success um to luck rather than effort, the reality is one, there was probably some luck. Two, um,

they don't have the skill to recognize your skill. It's a question of

your skill. It's a question of competence, not um, malicious intent.

And I think just just defining it that way has made it significantly or made it significantly easier for me to realize.

was like, "Oh, they they they don't have the ability to recognize what I didn't because if they did have the ability to fully comprehend the skill that it took, they would be able to do it, too."

Mhm. Mark Manson, James Clear have got an idea that's similar to that. You only

envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you cannot see. It doesn't

make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you don't want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire. to crave the results but not the process is to

guarantee disappointment. You only envy

guarantee disappointment. You only envy the lives of people whose sacrifices you cannot see.

Yeah, I love Jimmy Carrs. Um, people

want what you have but not what you did to get it. It's just so good. You know,

I I I think the first time I heard that I was like, [ __ ] I wish I had written that.

I was on this pod.

Yeah.

So good.

I wish I'd written that. Um, but yeah, and I think I think part of it is just like it goes back to what we started with around trades is like they're just

price tags and you can totally say that something costs too much. Like that is good. Like those shoes are nice. They're

good. Like those shoes are nice. They're

not worth a billion dollars or whatever that relative. Yeah. To me.

And so I think that being able to say like I think it is okay to say something is both good and not worth it.

And people have a hard time with that.

So they say it must be bad because I'm not willing to pay the price for it. But

it's like they might be great shoes.

They might not be worth it for you, but they're still good shoes.

I think what particularly hurts is when you as a person who's put a lot of effort in, see the price that you paid to acquire a skill and it appears to be dismissed by somebody that doesn't understand it.

Or when you buy the shoes and then someone says, "I can't believe you bought those shoes. There's no way I would ever do that." And you're like, "I know you would never do that. That's why

you don't have them." And it's okay that you don't have them either. I'm not

saying that as a judgment on you. It's

like you don't have the shoes. I do. I

thought they were worth it. You didn't.

And guess what? We both are different people who live different lives. And so,

we have stated the obvious.

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Avoiding people who make it harder for you to achieve your goals is the highest form of self-care. The fastest way to change your life is to get around people whose minimum standards are your life

goals. It's like I violently agree with

goals. It's like I violently agree with both of these statements that I wrote.

I agree with me.

Um it'd be great if you didn't agree with you. If I was like whoever wrote

with you. If I was like whoever wrote that is a [ __ ] idiot. Um,

this is at the heart of the And I I was I wrote that um right in the thick of my thinking around malicious goodwill

or sorry um uh malicious benefit and uh and well-intentioned uh harm was just um I think I had some people around me at that time that had had done

me harm and had said but I didn't mean to. Um, you know, I had good intentions.

to. Um, you know, I had good intentions.

And if you're telling that as the person who was texting and driving to the wife of the person whose husband you killed, um, I don't think I think they are

justified in not caring.

And I think that if that person who continues to drive while texting afterwards because they lack the skill to not drive without texting and continues to run over your spouse or

whatever, um, you are justified in removing them from your life despite their good intention. And I just think intention is desired result, which is like if I my intention was this, this is

what I wanted to have happen. And it

it's literally just a lack of competence. Incompetence is incredibly

competence. Incompetence is incredibly rare. So it makes sense to remove many

rare. So it makes sense to remove many people who are not competent at helping you either intentioned but incompetent.

Yeah. And so I think that's why being really clear about like hey if you do this this would help me this decreases my risk of failure that would be helpful for me. Um makes serving and I say that

for me. Um makes serving and I say that like serving you as a friend or as a spouse or as a whatever. Um it g you give people the tools to help you and I

think that you should totally do that.

If some if you give someone the tools um and then they choose not to help you, then I think you were also justified or it would be it would be rational for you if you value your goals more than you value the relationship

to sacrifice the relationship for the goal. And again, we would say which one

goal. And again, we would say which one you love more by the one that you're willing to give up.

The harshest truth every young man must eventually learn is that everyone was always rooting for you. Your parents

want you to be a great son. Your wife

wants you to be a great husband. Your

boss wants you to be a slam dunk hire.

Every first date you've ever been on, they've been rooting for you to get laid. Every time you started to tell a

laid. Every time you started to tell a joke, people hoped it would have a hilarious punchline. Your proximity to

hilarious punchline. Your proximity to anyone is a reflection of themselves, meaning the deck is never stacked against you, and your failures are

completely your own. Denzel Rust, I was like, who wrote that one? Um,

it's all your fault. No one's coming to save you.

Sacrifice who you are. But people aren't against you, especially the people that are in proximity to you. People's

proximity to you is a reflection of themselves. We hang around with people

themselves. We hang around with people who we want to be like and who we want to win so that we can be in the collective glory of it. So this is where the worldview I think is is super

important for me at least which is like we hang around people who who've rewarded us for being around them.

So either they've remove stuff that we hate or they um give us stuff that we like. And I think where it becomes

like. And I think where it becomes difficult is where you have competing priorities where you have multiple things that you like and you want to shift. It's where you begin to change.

shift. It's where you begin to change.

Basically your motivating factors start to change but your environment hasn't.

And so what was once reinforcing for you or was once rewarding no longer is as much.

And so this is where people feel this tension between desired of like this is the life I want to live versus the life that I have.

Trade-offs.

Yeah.

I mean I could I've I've given a tremendous amount of thought to trade-offs and I really think it comes down to that is that people are just unwilling to make trades.

Why?

Experientially, why? Because we want everything.

And when we get everything we wanted, we no longer want it because we have it.

And I think there's this amazing comedian, I think his name's Kanan. I'm

going to mess it up, but he says he has this awesome bit on this. It's like more philosophy than comedy. And he says, "All the joy is in the getting." He's

like, "But once you get it, you just have it." He's like, "And getting so

have it." He's like, "And getting so much better than having." He's like, "But the only thing worse than having is losing." And then you lose and all you

losing." And then you lose and all you want is to have it again.

Um it's like a two-minute bit. And and

he's like, "You know, you don't you don't get kids, you have kids." And he's like, "You are have. And that is why you will never be satisfied." Ah, but yeah,

you only either live in the desire or in the have. And the have is

the have. And the have is unsatisfactory. And the desire is always

unsatisfactory. And the desire is always compelling and out of reach.

Leila um has been talking to me about this more recently where she's like, you know, the things that that make you us, etc. Like very good at business is always seeing where things could be

better, where things could be improved.

And it's this incredibly, you said earlier, these habits that have been reinforced, these grooves of behavior that lots of water has run through,

right? Um, and being able to live life

right? Um, and being able to live life with two modes, I find incredibly difficult, which is like all I am in one part of my life is

dissatisfied. and seeing the

dissatisfied. and seeing the imperfections in what we do.

And then the key to satisfaction of life is saying everything is great or rather I accept everything as it is and I do not wish to change it. Um and I think that conflict is I would just say just

one that I I not conquered just one that I that line about problem to be managed not paradox to be solved.

Yeah. Dicho. Yeah. Exactly. It's a it's a problem to be managed not a dichotomy to be solved. Yeah.

Yeah. I I I don't and I think many of these things like there there is no uh oh number 42 that's the answer like that is the answer to this. I think that we just we do the best we can and I think again to the question that the started with with just why do people have such a

hard time with trade-offs? Um which is that the trades we don't want to make the trade.

We want to be able to date everyone and have the benefits of a committed relationship. And when you begin to walk

relationship. And when you begin to walk down one of those paths and see the other one start fading into the distance, people have an emotional reaction and then they change course and then they flip-flop back and forth between these two things. But then they never actually get to realize any of

them because loss is more painful than gain.

If you lose 5, it is more painful than finding 5.

And that means that you're always going to try and avoid loss as opposed to expedite gain even if you would be happier by doing that because the pain of the loss is always going to be felt more more

and probably short-term long term as well.

Yeah. Bill Perkins has got this line. He

says people will endure years of misery to avoid a couple of minutes of pain.

Oh my god. Yes. Incredibly true.

And again, if we think about motivation, it's just that that that short-term pain is always immediate. And so it auto always motivates you not to do it.

So you always you have many motivating operations that are that are working on us at any any given moment.

And so even though something is short-term, like even it's funny cuz like many people obviously there's some people who just love going to the gym, there are significantly more people who don't love going to the gym the moment

they get to the gym. Then you warm up then all of a sudden you feel good again, right? there's this this period

again, right? there's this this period where you're like I don't necessarily want to go right now. And so you have a motivating operation at all times that is working against your your best wishes

or you know your best desires.

And our goal of motivating ourselves is to tell ourselves those stories so that in the short term we can overcome the short-term discomfort so that we can get the long-term benefit that we ultimately want that we know we want but we're

reminded and the first time you work out it only looks like pain. And then we model, we look at somebody else who's already done it for a long time and say, "Well, I want that." And so we model that and we borrow that credibility, that outcome of the penguin that jumps

off the cliff, like I want the fish, so I guess I'll try and do that. And

then after that, the the loop takes over.

It's like hyperbolic accounting rather than hyperbolic discounting.

Mhm. And it happens both ways. So like

for example, if I'm if I want to set an alarm, right? If I set an alarm at 5:00

alarm, right? If I set an alarm at 5:00 for the night before for 4:00 in the morning, I'm going to wake up super early and I'm going to do all this [ __ ] right? We get the benefit of the idea of

right? We get the benefit of the idea of our productivity when we set the alarm, but the cost is discounted because it's in the future.

But when we have to pay the cost, it's immediate. And so the benefit of hitting

immediate. And so the benefit of hitting the snooze button is immediate. And the

cost of getting up is also immediate.

And so we hit the snooze button. And so

it's like it that that I feel like that is the microcosm of humanity of setting setting an alarm 12 hours before or 8 hours before you're supposed to wake up and being like super jacked about it because you only get the benefit and

there's no price attached to it. But

then in the moment that you have to make the trade all of a sudden you your priorities change because the motivations have changed.

Yeah. And the long-term benefit of what will happen to your life if you become the sort of person who gets up early is also in future.

Mhm. And if you do it a few times in a row, then you tell yourself, I am the type of person who does this. And then

that becomes a second operating operation which can help you overcome the short term. Like I'm a big believer in um in I am statements as motivating operations, meaning like I am this type

of person. Um I tend to be really

of person. Um I tend to be really hesitant to say I am statements because I believe they're very powerful in terms of changing behavior. Um but it's also something that I feel like I listen to a lot when I'm talking to other people like what I mean this happens a lot

especially in dating. The thing about first date, second dates. Um, people

were like, "Well, I'm a like in in in the first meeting, they'll give you like 20 I ams." Like, "I'm a I'm a neat freak. I'm a blah blah blah." Like, they

freak. I'm a blah blah blah." Like, they just give you, "Okay, here's my lattice work of my beliefs about myself."

Um, when in reality, all of these things are just shortorthhand for a number of behaviors underneath it. They're saying,

"I'm a great at basketball and I'm also great at swimming." And you're like, "Whoa, there's so much here." Um, but where it gets difficult is when um you need to stop dribbling and start passing, but you said, "I'm great at basketball, but I'm supposed to do both, but I actually need to change only one

of them." And that's where people get

of them." And that's where people get into these really hard times. Which is

why I think defining everything into the granular and then moving it back up. But

being able to go clouds to dirt on these definitions of behavior allow you to change who you are much more fluidly because you you understand that the

label is actually just that. It's just

shortorthhand. It's not reality. It's

just a bucket to make communication easier. If I

easier. If I I can't be bothered to describe all of the things that this particular term means.

And it would be unreasonable if I had to say he's a good basketball player. But

instead of saying that, I'm like, "Oh my god, he's really good at at taking his right foot and putting in front like it would it would it would be ridiculous."

But you have to understand at that level in order to communicate really clearly in my opinion.

Yeah.

This tension between excellence and satisfaction is an interesting one. I had this line this year which was what you are praised for in public you will pay for in

private. M a lot of the time the things

private. M a lot of the time the things that make you fantastic operator when it comes to business and your career often can be

totally unadaptive maladaptive when it comes to the kitchen table competing priorities and I like this is this is such a this is one that I I think I think a lot

about this um because there is a priority there is one that you want more and I think people have a lot of trouble with that. This is why people who are

with that. This is why people who are monomomaniacal often get so much further than people that don't because even just the thinking cost of managing navigating the trade-offs.

Yeah.

That's why someone asked me basically how how monomomaniacally should I go after my career and I said well it depends on what phase you're in.

Uh, but I think it is almost impossible to make a big swing, make big progress in your life without going complete sicko mode for an extended period of time.

Yeah, it's about 10 years.

Yeah.

I mean, I've just I think it's it's like about 10 years of just going um I'm not going to compromise.

Yeah, it's no compromises. It's no,

there's this um episode in in Breaking Bad and the title was I think no half measures and I think it was about whether you punish someone or kill them.

But that was but I remember watching that episode and the the line stuck with me a lot like no half measures either do or don't. And I

think that half measures yield null outcomes. Yeah.

It's not that you get half results.

Yeah. And so what many people are plagued by is they are doing half measures in four domains and have yielded none. And they feel like they

yielded none. And they feel like they are trying all the time. They're working

every hour that they're awake to pursue or serve four different masters. And

it's the realization that compromise on one means getting neither.

And I think that people have a hard time with that because they're unwilling to say, I I I want one thing more than another. And I think you just have to be

another. And I think you just have to be able to say like, I'm willing to sacrifice this thing, not forever, but for now.

Obligation, because of anchoring bias, because of the momentum of where you are now, because of the fear of regretting it.

This is where this is where the inaction thing comes back in. People

back in. People think that in action has no cost, but it it does have a cost.

Usually it's higher like um it's like money loves speed, wealth loves time, poverty loves indecision. Uh

and if you think about in action as an action we are we are always doing something. Even if you were watching

something. Even if you were watching television you are taking an action.

It's just not make it's not making any progress. Well maybe you're making

progress. Well maybe you're making progress in a show. Maybe you're making progress in your in your relaxation.

Maybe your resting heart rate drops.

Like you like things are always occurring. Um, and I think it's just

occurring. Um, and I think it's just whether we are voting with our behavior about the outcome that we truly want. And most of

the outcomes that we truly want happen at a delay, which is what makes them worth wanting.

But also makes them equally hard to get.

Don't listen to other people's opinions.

Friendly reminder that most people are fat, poor pansies, and don't listen to them when they try to deter you from whatever it takes to succeed. The

average person will always try to keep you average. It makes sense that if you

you average. It makes sense that if you want to be extraordinary, you will do things that an ordinary person would see as extra. This is the really hard part

as extra. This is the really hard part that I had to come to terms with. It's

that a lot of people want to see you fail because it justifies the risks that they chose not to take. We always have to think about listening to the people who are closest to our goals, not

closest to us.

We yearn for the approval of many people

who don't have lives that we want.

And so if they have a specific life, then it means that that is what they think is valuable. And if we don't want

what they have, then why would we value their weight on our decisions?

And so it's like you have this, they're like, we have this mold that is my life.

Your life no longer fits my mold. And

you're like, right, I don't like the pot that that mold makes. And so somehow when people state the obvious, which is that you were living your life against my preferences,

we somehow feel like that needs to change because when we're younger and growing up, we can't leave.

Yeah. You can't leave and you do need to live your life according to your parents' preferences, your teachers preferences, your classmates's preferences, your principal's preferences. Um, but when you get older,

preferences. Um, but when you get older, you do have to break the mold and decide what mold you want. And in so doing, you will be against their preferences. is

and if the vast majority of people have a life that you don't want, then you're going to do things that the vast majority of people don't agree with.

Mhm. I think the average American adult is obese, likely to be divorced, and has less than 1K in the bank. And doing what everybody else does sounds like a great idea, but it's actually a reliable route

to a life that you're probably not looking for.

This is I feel very passionately about this particular topic because it means that the path to exceptionalism

is lonely and loneliness is something that we decry as a society that there's something wrong with it. There's

something bad. There's something wrong with you.

If many people disagree with you, but this is but success and pursuit of large endeavors is one of those few domains where

everyone disagreeing with you is a signal that you are actually doing something different. Now,

sometimes you doing something different is the wrong move. I think um Larry Ellison said this. He said, uh, if everyone thinks your idea is stupid,

either they're right or you're right.

And if you're right, then you're likely to make a lot of money. I'm loosely

paraphrasing, but basically, it's like we have to be willing to do exceptional things in isolation and deal with the pain of rejection. Um,

and some of rejection isn't people saying, "No, I don't want to buy from Some of rejection is people just rejecting your behavior, rejecting who you're becoming, rejecting the choices that you're making.

Um, and I think that rejection often times is harder because it often surfaces as snide remarks, jokes that are demeaning, that have a little bit too much edge to them, like a little bit too much truth, or even just

being excluded. A more silent version of

being excluded. A more silent version of that, not commission, but omission. Oh,

we won't invite them out. Oh, you you you turned up to squash practice. I

didn't know it was on. I just thought that I don't know. Do you guys not tell me? Oh, yeah. Well, all right. Come on.

me? Oh, yeah. Well, all right. Come on.

Join. Yeah, this those moments and I think those moments are very painful.

Um, but you you trade those moments for the many moments when you're at home alone looking at your life around you and saying this is not what I want.

I don't want to be here.

Right? I don't want to be here. I don't

want to be who I am and I don't want to be there with them either.

Right? And so it's no man's land. Um,

and I think that that is like the beginning of the metamorphosis, the beginning of the transformation.

It's the single most powerful idea that me and you have come up with, the lonely chapter by far. By far. And I think the reason that it speaks to people is that the amount of doubt that you have to

endure when doing this for the first time when nobody around you understands what you're trying to do. When you're

actively being discouraged from making changes and you have no promise of glory or success on the other side of it is one of the most perfect cocktails of

pain and discomfort that you can go through. And this happens on every

through. And this happens on every mountain. So it happens on your first

mountain. So it happens on your first mountain and it happens on your second mountain. Like if you are you've

mountain. Like if you are you've achieved some level of success that everyone around you deems as successful enough by their standards not yours when you pursue the next summit they then all

of it begins again the machine begins again. I actually think that for a lot

again. I actually think that for a lot of people the first big lonely chapter that they will feel will be after their first success because for a lot of people the first success is done within

the frame that they're already inside of. They get to the top of it and

of. They get to the top of it and realize it wasn't what they wanted. And

then some people decide to go back down.

Uh maybe some people don't need to go up the first mountain to realize they're somewhere they don't want to be. But for

a lot of people, especially people that are driven and and pushed toward excellence, I think they actually have to get there within this was my story, right? getting

right? getting one of the biggest events companies in the UK running an organization that is cool and fun and I got to define and I was the boss and everybody knew me and

there's some wealth and some status and some freedom and there's girls.

Everybody's telling me that this is something that I should be happy about and satisfied with and for some reason it didn't feel right. And the only way to try and find something new is to let

go of something that everybody else is telling you is something that you should want local maximums. And it's like the furthest up they can see up the mountain. And then when you

get to that new local maximum, you have a different perception than they do. And

you can see the next peak and they can't. And

can't. And some people don't need to go up the peak, but I think a lot of people do.

Yeah. I um

I wonder if those are different types of lonely chapter. Wonder if there's a

lonely chapter. Wonder if there's a different type of a lonely chapter of of letting go. I I I've kind of been hold

letting go. I I I've kind of been hold that thought. I I just I really wanted

that thought. I I just I really wanted to talk to you about the difference between having fallen off and having never made it and having fallen off a lot of the time is somebody going from one local maxima

to another local maxima that's higher or to a global maxima. Like sure, some fall-offs occur not through choice, but that evolution might be somebody going, "My priorities have changed."

Mhm.

And you are judging me on the scorecard of the game that I used to play.

I'm not bothered about that anymore.

Oh, that guy fell off.

And I have two two completely different thoughts about this. Um,

one is short and then I'll I'll make the longer one. Um, I realized when I was I

longer one. Um, I realized when I was I was writing something a while ago, um, that when you haven't when you have no evidence or no proof that you're going

to be successful, everyone will ask why you're working so hard and then once you win, everyone asks why you're working so hard.

Mhm.

You know, that was the Mark Manson one that he said, "We'll tell you how lucky you are." Oh,

you are." Oh, and you liked the idea of No, they just ask you again why you're working so hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And

it was a funny remix.

Yeah. And um and it was just a realization that people were literally always going to ask me why I was working so hard or why you were working so hard and why are you pursuing your goals?

Because they're saying that your goals are not the goals that I would pursue.

And to which you would respond, yes.

The second thing was um I was I was talking to an entrepreneur, really successful, and they were saying, "Hey, I really want um I want to dominate my market. I want to put everyone else out

market. I want to put everyone else out of business, blah blah blah blah." And

I, as somebody who has put people out of business, um I will say that it doesn't come with parades and it doesn't come with balloons and it's not Goliath versus Goliath because by the

time you actually beat them into true submission, it's really like a giant beating a child because it's almost never a true fair fight and there are no rules and there is no referee and no one determines you

the winner. And so what ends up

the winner. And so what ends up happening is you get bigger and bigger and bigger and then they shrink into irrelevance and then you see a Facebook post that says that they've changed their goals and that they actually determine that this isn't as important

to them as it once was.

And I think that one that's okay.

Um two, it's not satisfying at all.

three, when you see the jobs and the employees that actually worked at the company that were just, you know, living their lives and have kids and all of a sudden like this idea of this conquest

that you're going to beat someone feels significantly less rewarding.

Um, that's glorious.

100%.

And I used to I used to joke that when losers lose, they change their goals rather than say they lost.

And I think it's more that they might have at some point while they began to lose.

Maybe it's the first quarter or the second quarter of their game, they're down by a few points. They might have some awareness of what it would take in order to win, but they determined at that point that the trade was no longer worth it.

And I think that that's okay. And I

would say that that has that is a shift that I've had personally is that if someone no longer determines that the price is worth it, then amazing. they've

made a they've made a conscious decision. What I what I I would say I

decision. What I what I I would say I advocate against is having that decision made for you because you weren't conscious of the decision being made to begin with and then just basically accepting it.

Can vengeance be deranging in that way?

Then say it again.

Can vengeance be deranging?

Uh for whom?

The desire to get one over on this person. It compels you to act in a way

person. It compels you to act in a way which is being puppeted by them in a very odd way.

Yeah. They control you.

Yeah. The the person that you're trying to beat has cajol you and tempted you into doing something that isn't necessarily in your

interests. And then when you do reach

interests. And then when you do reach the finish line, they're never going to say, "Well played, man. Fair fight."

Yeah. Exactly. No one else knows. It's

it's largely just this silent war between you and your projection of them.

And and to be clear, like I I think that vengeance and revenge can be incredibly motivating. And if if the only fuel that

motivating. And if if the only fuel that you have is that to get what you want, then use what you have. But I think that

the the outcome of it of beating a specific person is not nearly as fulfilling as you think it will be.

But if along the way you can create good from it, then I think that there's some reconciliation of pros and cons that happens of like good stuff happened, bad

stuff happened, and is there more good than bad? Um that we sum up at the end

than bad? Um that we sum up at the end of our lives. But I find it interesting when I think about when I look at like the oldest, you know, the old wise men that I that I pay attention to or that I

read their dead books or they're dead, the books are alive. Um, it is interesting how how much they talk about like the folly of youth and how how how much we value things that never really mattered to begin with.

Um, and how and I I try to think like what is that guy going to say about what I'm currently doing and will he approve of it? Um,

of it? Um, and I don't I mean to be clear like I always have the answer, but I think it it takes the edge off both sides. Uh, on

the downside if you do you know have your losses it's like well this this is okay. M

okay. M um and on the upside when you do have your wins you're like I'm not that important.

A lot of this feels to be about the expansion of time being able to see things on a broader time horizon. Is

that fair?

Time and space. I think those are the two things that can shrink or expand anything, right? And so like if you zoom

anything, right? And so like if you zoom in the the the atoms of this table versus zooming all the way out to the cosmos all of a sudden you know whether two monkeys are having a podcast that they're recording matters significantly

less. And also when we think about the

less. And also when we think about the billions of podcasts that get recorded over the next however many years it it shrinks it. Um but in this exact moment

shrinks it. Um but in this exact moment this becomes the most important thing that I'm focused on right now. So, um, I think playing with time and space as ways to cope with hardship is one of the

most viable tools that you can have in terms of getting through to zoom into enjoyment, zoom out of difficulty, pain. Yeah,

pain. Yeah, you can get competent at nearly anything in 20 hours. The problem is most people spend a decade delaying the first 20 hours. More potential is wasted through

hours. More potential is wasted through in action than incompetence.

I saw a TED talk years ago where a guy talked about how he learned how to play the guitar in 20 hours. And that TED talk changed my life. Not because I learned to play the guitar, but all of a

sudden complex tasks or seemingly complex tasks felt incre much much more attainable. I was like, okay,

I might not be the best website developer in the world, but in 20 hours I can have a website. And that 20our mantra for me has just been like two days, two full days, two 10-hour days

fully focused, you can pretty much go from zero to not hero, but zero to competent. Um, and when you string

competent. Um, and when you string hundreds of those 20our days together, I think you become incredibly dangerous.

We were talking earlier about range the book. I think being cross-dep

book. I think being cross-dep departmental being cross um what's the multi-disiplinary thank you disciplinary multi-disiplinary is is is

hard to calculate how valuable it is because of the because the the first 20 hours of almost every discipline is probably the biggest most meaningful concepts from that from not being able to ride a bike to being able to ride a bike

yes being able to not read to read um even if you can't read Shakespeare but you can read all of a sudden like 80% the world of Shakespeare is now opened up to you. It's just a matter of time before you get there.

Yeah. And even if you could never read Shakespeare, the 80% of the books that you can read as a result of a sixth grade reading level is basically more books than you have time to read. Um and

you will get the largest returns from those first 20 hours. And so there's a very strong argument for trying to collapse the time between uh wanting something and beginning those first 20

hours. And because the the 8020 of your

hours. And because the the 8020 of your of the skills you gain that are that have utility like that your usefulness across a huge amount of domains is

multiplicative not additive. So I I I've said this example before but like you know Jay-Z in the very beginning it's like he might have had some rhythm or something and then all of a sudden he you know learned how to rap and then he

learned how to sell. Now some people say maybe was sold earlier than that but I'll just leave it there. He learned how to sell and then all of a sudden he learned how to market. And with each of these additional skills, his income didn't go up by like, oh, 1 plus 1

equals 2. It went, you know, one, well,

equals 2. It went, you know, one, well, one's a bad number. So 2 to the 10th power all of a sudden becomes significantly greater um than what you can do. And so when

can do. And so when when unsure about what step like when you're not sure what to do, build potential

because when the opportunity does come, you want to be ready. And so it does make sense in the beginning of your career to maximize optionality. It's

just that you have to be willing to trade it in. And so when you're not sure what to do, the logical thing to do is I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow, but I'm going to get a good night's sleep. I don't know when I'm

night's sleep. I don't know when I'm going to meet a mate, but I'm going to start getting in shape now. I don't know what I'm going to sell, but I'm going to start building an audience and making content. There's always an argument for

content. There's always an argument for like you if you don't know what to do, there's still plenty of things to do.

And but the goal is not necessarily to do those things forever. It's to do those things to then use them as the launch pad to get the thing you really want. The trap is opening up so much

want. The trap is opening up so much optionality without the concordant decisiveness that you end up being trapped.

Yeah.

You end up being stuck because you think, I've got all of these directions that I could go in. I've spent all of this time building up uh paniply

of roots that I could take my life down and I do not have any ability to decide on which of those to take.

Paniply.

Paniply. You like that?

Myriad. Cornucopia. plethora.

Yeah. Yeah.

Two people that are obsessed with language have have a war with each other.

But one is British, so he wins.

You only need to get rich once, so you might as well work as hard as you can to get it done as fast as you can. The

fastest way to attract what you want in life is to deserve it. By doing so much work, it becomes unreasonable not to achieve it. Do so much work it would be

achieve it. Do so much work it would be unreasonable that you fail. The seat at the table is yours if you want it. Do

the hard work. Build the skills no one can ignore. Adjust your mindset to match

can ignore. Adjust your mindset to match where you want to go. Then pull up a chair and sit down. You want to work with such relentless obsession that when people see you, they're grateful they don't have to compete against you. The

fastest shortcut is to stop looking for shortcuts. Do the work. Are those all

shortcuts. Do the work. Are those all mine? All one.

mine? All one.

Violence is the answer.

There's There's two. There's two quotes on the on the in the first few pages of our sales handbook internal acquisition.com. One is volume negates

acquisition.com. One is volume negates luck and violence is the answer. And I

would say that those are like credos that that the team lives by and I think violent team.

Mhm. They are um and violently successful. Um, I think I think there's

successful. Um, I think I think there's a lot of power in in knowing that you're doing every

single thing you possibly can to win.

Because if you are if you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, I have controlled the controllable, I think there's some entire entirely the controllable, not the uncontrollable.

Those things can happen. I could do my book launch and there can be a lightning strike and there can be no power in Vegas. That can happen. But in the event

Vegas. That can happen. But in the event that that happens, if you if you leave it all in the field, if you have nothing left in the tank,

I don't think there's a feeling that's more satisfying as a man than knowing that you've given everything that you had to give to an endeavor that you deemed meaningful.

And so Leila and I have this thing that we say a lot, but um a man must have a quest.

And I just really really like that. It's

like you need to do something. You need

to go towards something. And your quest could be the best being the best father.

It could be it could be being the best musician or the best podcast or the best businessman or the best tire replacer, the best sweeper, whatever it is. But like I think I think

being questless, being aimless, and never being able to use the violence that you are capable of in the pursuit of an endeavor that you find meaningful

is where people find themselves lost and without hope. Because

without hope. Because hopelessness comes from a perceived lack of options. We don't know what to do.

of options. We don't know what to do.

Anxiety comes from many options but no priorities. And so there's many things

priorities. And so there's many things to do but we aren't sure which one.

And so a quest remedies both of those because you have one path that you're clear on. And

you know the only thing that you have left to do is destroy everything in your path to getting to where you want to go.

And I'm using strong language on purpose rather than saying that you literally need to destroy everyone. but more so the ideas, the thoughts, the doubts, the the perceived risks that aren't even

really risks. Um

really risks. Um those are the things that we have to march triumphantly towards. And I think um having someone in your corner uh

who believes in that better version of you is one of the the rarest gifts that you can have in life. And there's a line

from 300 that I love. The queen says to Leonitis, she's she says, um, "Come back with your shielder on it." And I think

that we all want a spouse or a partner who can who can reward us for the good fight because what that queen is saying

in that moment is not like, "I want you to win." She's like, "I want you to die

to win." She's like, "I want you to die trying." M

trying." M so and I think that that's that's like all we I mean to be fair that's literally all we will do is die trying.

All of us will die trying. And I think um well rather all of us will die some of us will die trying. And I think that's that's about as good of a life as

I think anyone can really ask for. One

of my least favorite groups of people are those without a quest mocking those who have one.

wastess of space. Well,

it causes doubt. This is another reason why the lonely chapter thing resonates so much that people who are in it have their certainty about wanting to get out of it diminished by people who can't see

the fact that they're in it. And you go, [ __ ] All of my friends are saying, "Well, why why are you staying in? Cuz

you want to go to the gym in the morning." What does it matter if you

morning." What does it matter if you miss what does it matter if you miss your workout? Doesn't matter if you It

your workout? Doesn't matter if you It doesn't matter if you miss your workout tomorrow, dude. Go, No, I really, really

tomorrow, dude. Go, No, I really, really want this thing.

and my wanting of this hard thing and the efforts and sacrifices and trade-offs I'm having to make in order to get there.

The doubt that already exists inside of me is being multiplied by people who are outside of it. And if I could give everybody a gift, it would be the ability to turn down the volume on

people who don't understand the goals that you're trying to achieve.

It shouldn't be your job to explain yourself to people who don't understand what you're trying to do.

and the confusion of this person gets it and understands it and this person doesn't, you shouldn't be listening to them at equal measure.

I have a lot of live translation that I think um I've wired into being able to handle some things that were difficult um which is like I pretty much translate all hate into you live your life against

my preferences. And so whenever they're

my preferences. And so whenever they're saying all of these things of like, "No, you don't have to go to the gym. We

we're doing this other thing." It's just saying, "You're living your life in a way that's against my preferences.

You're valuing things that I don't value." And you're like, "You're right."

value." And you're like, "You're right."

And so it doesn't mean like we don't need to have the same values, at least in the short term. Um, and I think just accepting that that is okay and that you can still be friends, at least in the

short term, is fine. And what they're really trying to do is get you to comply with their way of living. Because maybe,

not always, when you live in accordance with your new values and new preferences, it brings into sharp contrast how they

are not living in accordance to theirs.

Yeah. Yeah. This was what 10 years ago when as a club promoter I decided that I was going to take six months off from drinking which now sounds like commonplace now is almost a caricature

of something lame that people do too much and drinking has come back around but 10 years ago I was on the [ __ ] frontier and I remember when I stopped drinking

so many of the people that I would hang out with went from being surprised to ribbing mockery to almost offending did.

And I think a lot of that was people realizing, oh [ __ ] the fact that Chris has stopped drinking throws the fact that I need to drink in order to feel social into harsh contrast. My bad

habits are being highlighted by the fact that someone near me has broken them.

And what's really interesting about that is that you made money from other people drinking. And so you clearly had no

drinking. And so you clearly had no problem with anyone drinking. you just

chose not to drink for you so that you could grow the business, get more in shape whatever.

Makes it feel even more elective, which makes it feel like even more of an insult, right? Which is which makes it also more

right? Which is which makes it also more more ridiculous how violent they were about opposing this choice because you were like, I'm not projecting anything on you. I would prefer it if you drank.

on you. I would prefer it if you drank.

Please, please spend as much money as you can at the club.

Continue.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Um, but even that like it's a perfect example because there's there wasn't a shade of judgment behind it because you are incentivized to have them.

I was opening the doors myself and cracking the bottle.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much.

And so like I actually think it is the perfect example because it shows that like there is it is not about you. That

is the point because there was no judgment. You were literally

judgment. You were literally incentivized them for for them to continue that behavior and yet they still felt bad and angry that you were do not doing something they were doing which then made them feel that they felt

like they shouldn't be doing it either and then they just projected it on to you. And it's like when you have these

you. And it's like when you have these this violent opposition, one of the things that I've actually been more recently thinking about is like no one hates you. They hate the

projection that they have of you that's 99% made up because no one can know 100% of you. Like the only person whose hate

of you. Like the only person whose hate you should really pay attention to is your own because there's no other person on earth who has full context to who you are. And so the person that that

are. And so the person that that someone's making fun of or they hate or that they're disagreeing with is the person and within the context of here obviously that's that's consumed

six 30-second clips of you over the 37 years you've been alive and has filled in the blanks for every other minute of your existence with the exception of those three minutes that they have

consumed.

Correct. And so how much weight I should probably proportionally weight the opinions of people based on the shared experience that they have of my life

with me. And so if someone has spent one

with me. And so if someone has spent one day with me out of the 37 years that I've been alive, I have 37* 365 more context on the individual than they do.

And so I should probably weight it appropriately to that. There's a idea from Gwendogal which is about this. It's

called tilting at windmills.

An online stranger doesn't know you. All

they have are a few vague impressions of you, too meager to form anything but a fantasm. So when they attack you,

fantasm. So when they attack you, they're really just attacking their own imagination. There is no need to take it

imagination. There is no need to take it personally, which is related to this principle of humanity. Every single

person is exactly what you would be if you were them.

This includes your political opponents.

So instead of dismissing them as evil or stupid, maybe seek to understand the circumstances that led them to their conclusions.

You know, I love that. Um,

so good.

Um, it also teases out something that I might have to put my put my my hat on for but switch it um which is that if everyone

if you were going to be the same, if you were the exact same person as they are, if you were them,

then it removes the concept of free will. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

will. Uh-huh. Uhhuh. Uhhuh.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

If you're poor, try the buy nothing challenge.

The buy nothing challenge. For 30 days, buy nothing except food, rent, gas, and insurance. Don't bring your wallet with

insurance. Don't bring your wallet with you when you leave home. Pack lunch. See

how much you save. Repeat until you have as much as you want. Brackets pairs well with working 12 hours a day. Being good

with money literally just means spend less than you make and put the extra in things that go up, not down.

financial education in two tweets. Um,

the hardest part about most things isn't knowing what to do, it's doing it. And the hard part about doing it is that you're often more

rewarded for every action except for the one that you need to take. And so

there's a hundred things you can spend money on. There's only one nothing.

money on. There's only one nothing.

And so every it's so exhausting to not spend money when you don't have any because every single thing that you want or many things that you want have price tags

associated with them and you have to at all moments in the day say no a hundred times in order to quote spend nothing.

And so it's this muscle that we have to build. But I I I strongly encourage the

build. But I I I strongly encourage the buy nothing challenge because one, you realize how little you can really live on.

And when you realize how little you can really live on, you realize how much more risk you can actually take. Because

the apparent downside of what if I lost everything becomes incredibly tangible, which is like, well, I lived on $200, $500 worth, not even that bad.

Yeah. It's actually and when you realize that and this is I think Morgan Strusel I say his name right. Um

when we look back in time at some of our happiest moments uh we think we were happy when we were poor. Um but I'll just say on an anecdotal level um

my one of my own words um we often say that we'll be happy like we already have the things that we said we want that would make us happy.

Yeah.

And yet here we are.

Yeah. This is a nostalgia discount for sure that nobody ever believes that we're living through a golden era.

Golden eras only ever occur in history.

The good old days. Yeah, it's always the good old days. I asked a question actually recently which was there's certain periods that people look back on nationally

as times that were particularly wonderful.

I did ask the question, do you think anyone will look back at 2026 and think that it was the good old days at some point? Uh, every generation believes

point? Uh, every generation believes that they're living through a moment which is marketkedly different than the generations before. This one does feel

generations before. This one does feel particularly unremarkable in that way. To a degree, yeah, I think

when I I'm trying to project forward stuff that currently we think about with loving nostalgia from the past. And I'm

not sure, but then probably during the '9s, right, did people think that WWF and F-16 fighter rocket, the fighter jets and and Limp Biscuit were going to

be what people in three decades time would look back on with loving tenderness.

So, I'm going to say two things that I think are um so one, a behaviorist can explain the the the nostalgia paradox, which is that

across species, negative consequences fade.

Mhm.

Fading affect bias.

Yeah.

And but positive doesn't.

Mhm. And so that's why you have your ex that you always want to go back to cuz you forget how crazy she is and then you see her and then you're like, "Oh my god, I forgot how crazy you were." um

and why you drink and then the next morning you say I'm never going to drink again and then seven days later you're drinking again to my life right and so um but like even being cognizant of the fact that punishment

fades and reward sticks is helpful for making decisions in the future so that's thing one second is that like when I really think about at least the eras of

my life so I'll just talk personally when I think about when I was you know sleeping on the gym floor um In a lot of ways, that was like the good old days. Like I was I was fighting

old days. Like I was I was fighting really hard for something I really cared about. And then, you know, there was a

about. And then, you know, there was a moment where it started to work and I started, you know, launching gym to gym to gym with Ila, which was like, was it necessarily the good old days,

but like it was she and I and we were figuring it out. And I think I have a lot of respect and admiration for that kid who was just working his ass off.

Even though I didn't know what I was doing, I just try. I tried. M um and then obviously when things started working out with gym launch and it was really scaling it's like I remember that period and like I think you can you can ascribe a good old days especially on a

personal level to like almost every season of life when you look in retrospect but just because the the negative has faded false um and so

it's one of these things it's like it's like a great way to feel bad about how you feel today because you know you should feel better because you know you will feel better about today in the future because the future will of today

without the negative consequences and the stressors of today that in the future seem irrelevant. Um, and so it's like whenever you think about this stuff like what is my what my my operation for

gratitude is imagine something good, imagine losing it and then realize that you haven't lost it. That is how you feel gratitude

at the most basic level.

Mhm. And so

whenever you repeat that operation either in your mind or in reality like you feel gratitude and so I think nostalgia is a flavor of that as we go

back in time. Um now we we can't get it back. Um but I guess we can see it

back. Um but I guess we can see it through a new lens.

That's the memory dividend thing from Bill Perkins.

I phenomenal book everyone.

Die with zero. Going by Die with Zero.

Really really good book.

Really great. Three hours to read.

Fantastic. Um,

yeah. I think some of the areas that people rely on with more nostalgia from a personal standpoint, times with more simplicity and fewer

trade-offs, I think tend to be looked back on with, huh, I was really singularly focused in that way.

Life was simpler then.

Correct. And there is an accumulation of complexity. So I wonder if

complexity. So I wonder if simplification would be a way to remove some of the restrictions between now and front running some of that gratitude for now in the moment.

I think that's really interesting because I think that the complexity of our lives in the moment that we were living them was just as maxed out is as it is now because we're human, not because life was more complex, but because we always find the maximum

amount of problems that our brains can perceive. And so at any given moment,

perceive. And so at any given moment, whether you're, you know, 20 or 40, like you're you might have absolutely more problems when you're 40, but you also have higher ability to deal with those problems. And the problems that you perceived when you were 20, the worst

thing that's ever happened to you is the worst thing ever happened to you. You

will still have the same number of problems. And so the idea of simplifying our lives is really just an attempt to mirror only the incomplete memory that we have of that moment.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm gonna try and get rid of the tradeoffs that I did have to do in the past in the moment to make the moment more like the past.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a Adam Lane Smith taught me this a couple years ago. I think it's really really true. Your life does not need to be easier. It needs to be simpler. Your system is designed to

simpler. Your system is designed to handle stress and challenge, but not complication.

You probably handle hard things pretty well, but feel overwhelmed when they become messy. Do not attribute to

become messy. Do not attribute to difficulty that which can be explained by complexity.

Really cool.

And I think that's that's where a lot of stress is felt. And this is the line from whatever [ __ ] four episodes ago where uh there's no such thing as being

overworked, only underested. That

overworked is the asterisk overworked at a small bucket of things.

But there is such a thing as being spread too thin and overworked across a larger bucket of things. If all that you have to do for the next 6 months or two

years is write a book, it's going to be stressful, but it's going to be enjoyable. If you have to write a book and raise a kid and manage finances and go to work and try and get

in shape and connect with your partner and your mom's ill and it doesn't take it only takes two or three of those and people fall apart.

System is designed to handle intensity but not complexity.

I think I think most people would be astonished at how much they can accomplish if they remove things because I don't I don't think focus is also not additive but multi multiplicative in

that the best things that I've ever made books things like that the best works that I've created have been things that had

many coats of paint and so I can look at the same project over a long period of time when I'm on good days, on bad days, it rains, it's it's it's sunshine, Leila and I are good, Leila and I are bad like

through all these different seasons. And

so I look at the work through as many lenses as I can and then it it creates it creates the texture to the work that gives it that depth of and I like the many coats of paint cuz like you have to let it dry. Like

it's very rare that something on the first shot is very good. It just takes a lot of attempts, but you you can't get that surface area of thinking if you can only think about it a handful of times.

And so there's only so much thinking time that you have, which means that if you give it to five projects rather than one, getting one in deep on five

projects is rarely a novel concept. Like

you rarely will come up with something that is is inherently unique because many people can give one-inch deep thought towards any idea. Well, also

somebody who is 1/5if as good as you at doing that thing are giving 100% of themselves. So you're basically

themselves. So you're basically cailing your capacity by spreading it across multiple things. And again, I relate things back to business, but um

in some ways, you believing that you can pursue multiple masters is actually arrogant because it assumes that the people that you compete against can't beat you when they're fully focused on

one thing and that you can somehow compete with three or four or five people at the same time and still win.

And maybe you can, but I think the vast majority of people just lose.

Stop whining. Every position has an advantage. Younger means cutting edge.

advantage. Younger means cutting edge.

Older means more experience. Smaller

company means more personalized. Bigger

company means longer track record. Rich

means resources to use. Broke means

nothing to lose. You aren't limited by your resources, only your resourcefulness.

There's always a way to win.

just not always a enough desire to win.

The uh position of simplicity as well. I think

so much of today is about trade-offs is cool.

Looking across all of these, I can't see any of them that would be improved by complexity.

young old small big rich broke.

It's a universal rule that cuts through all of them, which I think is really interesting. But yeah,

interesting. But yeah, everybody is able to find a reason why the situation that they're in is either great, but more typically not great.

Because finding all of the ways that the thing that you have or don't have either limits you or restricts you in a way that it wouldn't if you were somebody else or in a different situation

allows you to frontr run why you might fail in future.

This is the reason why inversion is one of the most powerful ways to get what you want because we are hardwired to survive and part of survival is threat

identification. What are all the

identification. What are all the problems that exist around me in my environment in my life that threaten me?

And so when you try to think about what's good with your life, you have to sit there and be like, okay, I have to do my 5-minute journal in the morning and think what three and you're like sitting there, you're like, okay, what three things am I grateful for? Right?

And you have to like try to do that, especially if you do different things every day, right? But what's

interesting, and this is why I think Munger was so was so brilliant with this, is if you frame what are all the threats that I have to accomplishing what I want. What are all the things

that are going to get in my way? Um, if

I had to guarantee failure, what would I do? It's much easier to come up with the

do? It's much easier to come up with the list of all the things that will guarantee failure because we're programmed to find those threats. And

then all you have to do is just flip it as soon as you figured out that monster list of the things that guarantee your failure. And then you just do that. You

failure. And then you just do that. You

know what's a cool version of this? If

you were to design a day or a lifestyle for your worst enemy who's trying to beat you, what would it be? Uh and the inversion

of the inversion is imagine that you were going up against you but with a mustache.

Yeah. It's you versus a mustache. And

this version of you is doing everything that they can to beat you. They know all of your failures. They know all of your shortcomings and your fears. What would

that person do?

Just do that. Do what that person would do that would beat you. Do what you with a mustache would do to beat you. And

that's one of George's ideas. And I

think it's really cool. It's the same as basically what would you do if you had 10 times the agency because presumably that person would have way more agency. They wouldn't

doubt themselves as much. They'd be more decisive. uh they would uh reduce

decisive. uh they would uh reduce complexity, they would be less distracted.

So there's there's a there's a frame in the investing world which is if someone else were to come and buy 100% of your company today, what would they immediately do in the first, you know, 30 days?

Holy [ __ ] I can't believe that they're spending this much money on catering.

I can't believe they still have that guy um who was good two years ago and just shows up for work now. Um, and I think it's because what that frame provides you is

an emotionless view of your current situation. You are your best the person

situation. You are your best the person that you would your your your worst enemy would have no emotion about Yeah. with a

mustache would have no emotion around making the hard call because he's not you, he's someone else. And the person he's firing is not your best friend, Todd.

It's just this inadequate person who's no longer upskilled. And so when we make these when when we talk through, you know, we have these podcasts around feelings and emotions and whatnot, like

there is the there's the feelings that we there's the experience of life of the things that we feel while we go through it and then there's the the decisions that must

occur in reality. M

and I think trying to serve both masters is where people get I don't want to say in trouble but at least they understand that they are making a trade. I keep

Todd on because I feel guilty. Okay, we

at least understand that Todd is hurting your business and you would rather hurt the business than have the conversation with Todd.

Show me your priorities.

Yeah. And we know the priorities.

It's just are the priorities the priorities you want?

What what are you willing to sacrifice?

Well, you either care more about Todd or more about not feeling guilty than you do about your business.

Yeah.

Show me your priorities.

And And we know them. We know the priorities. And so, um, oh, behaviorist.

priorities. And so, um, oh, behaviorist.

Look at you, man. Um,

yeah. And I think that like your life is a consequence of your priorities. And

the question is just whether or not like many people want to want, they don't actually want.

Yeah.

They want to be willing to give up things in order to get stuff, but they don't actually give up things in order to get stuff.

Above your intelligence, above your work ethic, you will be compensated in proportion to your risk. Pro tip: If you're afraid to take the risk, write down in excruciating detail what you're

actually afraid of happening, step by step, what happens next when you fail.

You'll often find it's not so bad when you spell it out. Fear exists in the vague, not the specific.

So risk comes in a handful of flavors.

One is what we know we will give up that we hope we will get something back from that's bigger.

There's also the we want something bigger but we will pay a cost. So

different ways of saying the same thing like it's going to be uh lose something good get something bad um are the are the things that risk presents for us.

A different view on risk that I've been thinking a lot about is proportionality of risk.

And at the most basic level, this is a lot of what you know, investing really is, which is there is always risk, but is the risk priced appropriately?

And Peter Thiel had this commentary around Elon where if he had just had one of his three companies succeed, it would have already been a crazy win. But

somehow he got all three of them to become I guess now you know multi-billion trillion dollar plus companies.

And he said he must know something about risk that all of us don't understand.

And I think there's something incredibly powerful about studying the person who's accumulated the most wealth in history or at least in present day. Um and that that man's understanding of risk is different and it's probably a more

accurate view of true risk rather than perceived risk. And he often talks about

perceived risk. And he often talks about like, well, the downside of trying as hard as you can is basically nothing.

You are, if you're in the developed world, the likelihood that you starve to death is almost nothing. And there are there is free shelter if literally no one in your social construct would allow you to crash on a couch. And that

assumes that during the day you are incapable of working in any way that generates money, which there are many ways to generate money that do not require tremendous skill, at least today.

And so the downside is nothing. And so

that is why the risk of going after whatever it is that you want is mispriced by the vast majority of people because they have this fear of the big thing that's good that's going to go

away or a big bad thing that's going to come as a result. But the big bad thing is nothing, but the big thing that's good that they miss out on is everything.

And so the risk is almost always mispriced because our brains are wired to mispric it. Because if you mess up once, you don't pass on your genes and

you die. But it is in no way wired to

you die. But it is in no way wired to maximize your potential and what you're capable of.

This mismatch between ancient programming and the modern world is kind of hilarious. We got a nervous system

of hilarious. We got a nervous system that was built to fight bears and now it's worried by group texts. Uh

it's true. It's true. And uh how do you think about Let me add one more piece on that risk piece. Um, I was talking to an entrepreneur um, a week or two ago and

she had grown her great-grandmother's business from 4 million to 44 million in 3 years. It was like awesome, super cool

3 years. It was like awesome, super cool story. And it became obvious to her that

story. And it became obvious to her that her brand and needing to create more content was kind of the constraint of her going from call it 45 million to, you know, 200 million and beyond. And

she said, "Okay, so do you think I should like hire an editor?" And was interesting. She's like, "Well, how much

interesting. She's like, "Well, how much is that going to cost?" And so the business is doing a million month profit now. And what was interesting to me is

now. And what was interesting to me is that often times we don't also recalibrate our appetite for risk as our exposure to opportunity expands.

And so you right now are still operating from the $4 million business owner risk angle where you were making a million a year and one or two editors was 10 or 20% of your net income. when you're

making $12 million in profit, we should be thinking about how do we make a two, three, $4 million bet that we think is going to result in an extra 200 million or 100 million on top of that, which is

a phenomenal return. And so, I mean, I open up the offers book with one of my top two quotes from Jeff Bezos when he talks about how if you have a 10% chance

of a 100 of 100x payoff, you should take that bet every time knowing that you will be wrong nine times out of 10.

The difficulty with that example contrasted with reality is that if you were at a casino and you had a 10% chance of a 100x

payoff, of course you should take that bet, but then just assume that the minimum bet is 10 years and you only have three hands to play.

Yeah.

And that's the reality of life. That

said, when we look at what that loss of that 10% when that 10% when the 90% of the time that it fails isn't actually a loss though, you've accumulated a lot along the way.

Yeah. And you've you've gained experience, you've gained lessons, you've gained skills, you've gained network, you've gained relationships, um perspective, and so you only move forward by taking

these shots on goal. And I think that if every risk was only seen as zero downside, only upside and either I win or I learn, which we are not the first

people to say that, but whatever version of that narrative you need in order to realize that life has given you an endless amount of scratchoff tickets and you just get have to cash them in.

I think that more people would take bets and more people would win.

It's way better to be high conviction and wrong than low conviction and wrong, you know?

like I'm just going to go for it because at least if you're high conviction and wrong, you move sufficiently quickly to be able to update your system based on the results that you got.

It's why indecisiveness again and that inaction thing, inaction has a cost. Do

not make the assumption that inaction has no price. So, it does have a price.

Yeah. And it's and it's and it's a this is one of those labels that we're saying at the very beginning about shortorthhand. It's like inaction isn't

shortorthhand. It's like inaction isn't even in action. We are always taking action. It's it's action against your

action. It's it's action against your priorities versus action towards your priorities. Which of them will help you

priorities. Which of them will help you accomplish what you want?

Mhm. And when you think that presumably nobody wants to be less decisive, there's very few. I mean, there's being rash, which I don't think is the same as being decisive. When I've met the

being decisive. When I've met the threshold that is satisfactory or should be satisfactory in order for me to make this decision, I make it is not the same as I make a decision before I have sufficient information in order to be able to make it.

It's an information question, not a time question.

Yeah. Uh but when you think don't practice what you don't want to become and if you are practicing being indecisive

couched in the wrapper of keeping optionality open you're just practicing being indecisive over and over again. And if you think of

your indecision as an investment in your future decisions i.e. making them

harder.

That actually makes indecision a really a really really horrible pitfall to go down.

I remember one of the things that allowed me to take the bet to quit my job was and I I people see me now but like I I'm still very riskaverse. Um

believe it or not. Uh and so I mean remember I was a you know finished I didn't have the like school failed me.

What do I do? I had the opposite cursive options. I had done really well. All

options. I had done really well. All

that kind of stuff. And

the thing that got me was if not now, then when?

Because I figured a future version of me that I was delaying this decision for would either have a wife to support or wife and kids to support, right? And I was like, so if it's this

right? And I was like, so if it's this hard for me now, how do how can I make the assumption that it's going to somehow be easier at some point in the future? And if I really say that I want this thing, then

how can I not do it now when it the the chips are most stacked in my favor?

Yeah.

And um you said one other thing earlier that I I um oh about uh we we have a desire

for perfect information in order to make a perfect decision from a world that will give us neither. And so we have to be willing. So, like what separates a

be willing. So, like what separates a rash decision from a well-informed decision? Well, taken to the natural

decision? Well, taken to the natural extreme, a perfectly informed decision, the decision has often been made for you because the outcomes have already occurred. Which means that if you have

occurred. Which means that if you have perfect information, the opportunity has already gone away. And so, we have to be willing to make some assumptions. We

have to make some bets. Which is why having a worldview or a good model of prediction makes you better at getting what you want because you can say listen I know this I believe this based on my

pattern of how I think the world works and because of this Phil and I think this is a good a good or decent bet and a lot of that calculus is the what's my upside what's my downside if I'm wrong and if we know that the downside of

being wrong is zero then go for it what's that all all loss is just psychological until death do this Jaco I of course I saw that and I was like

[ __ ] Joo shout out. I love that quote.

Yeah, it angers me how good it is.

So good.

I was thinking about it's been almost exactly a year since me and you sat down and a lot of the this is seventh time you've been on maybe something like that. Is it really?

Maybe. Yeah. Sixth or seventh plus we did the one with me and me and Ila and I think there's always an interesting progression. And so one of

interesting progression. And so one of the things that I've noticed looking at the time capsule of the last year of your writing and what I've been thinking about too is uh risk, uncertainty, and decisiveness seem to be themes that are

in there a lot. And I came across this Nibil Kareshi quote that is maybe a little self- serving, but I think it it's really true about why

drilling 20, 30 hours, 40 hour, however long me and you have spoken, why it's why I think it's important and why I don't get bored of it. He says, "A cursed fact of

the world is that the most important life lessons you learn are the hardest to communicate to others because they always sound like cliches." Mhm.

And there's a bit of me in the back of my mind that hears, "It's not that deep, bro. You're over

complicating it. You don't need to look at life with this level of resolution.

This seems to be unnecessarily dissecting. Uh this is

dissecting. Uh this is uh majoring in the minors. Uh this is taking too seriously things which don't matter in that sort of a way. Paying too

much attention. It's a kind of fragility of optimization, etc., etc. And the fact that lots of things that are

important sound like stuff that you've heard before doesn't discount the fact that you need to hear it. Because if you know it that well, why the [ __ ] are you still in the same

place? If you're bored of hearing about

place? If you're bored of hearing about how important cold, dark, quiet is in order to prepare your bedroom for sleep, why does your sleep still suck?

Why does your sleep still suck? If

you're bored of hearing how it's important to integrate emotions, but there are times when you need to put them to one side, that they're information, not a master,

why is it you still don't have a good relationship with your emotions? If you

know this stuff, if it's so obvious, if this is the sort of thing that you should have been taught by your father or you should have learned in school or you shouldn't have had to wait until you're in your 40s to understand,

why is it you haven't mastered it? And

the most important life lessons that you learn are the hardest to communicate to others because they always sound like cliches.

We need to be reminded more than we need to be taught.

And so that means that the gap between what we have and what we want is typically not a lack of information, but a lack of execution. And so if it's

a lack of execution, then it ladders up to what are the motivating operations that are either preventing me from doing it or that are insufficient to compel me.

And so this is why I think Chris and I go into this very very minute detail about okay, you would just sleep on your friend's

couch and how bad is that? And trying to actually spell out that the down like how do you put the picture like we were saying earlier with uh the the the waiting room or the the hospital bed?

It's it's trying to take three steps forward into the reality of what living through your downside would look like so that you can realize that the downside is 10 times worse in your mind than it is in reality. And if it's 10 times

worse in your mind than it is in reality, then it means that you can take actions in reality because the downside doesn't really exist. And the

excruciating detail is needed in order to be able to bring this imagination into reality. Oh, I can feel that. I

into reality. Oh, I can feel that. I

imagine what it would be like to be on my friend's couch. I know it would be brown. It would be on the left hand side

brown. It would be on the left hand side of the room. I would have a little thing on the floor that would be a mobile desk that I might work at.

And sometimes it takes actually reaching out to a friend before you take a big jump and say, "Hey, if all this I'm about to do something wild, if this went to [ __ ] would I be

able to crash to your place for like an extended period? I would be willing to

extended period? I would be willing to do X, Y, and Z. I don't think it's going to happen, but would you be willing to do it?" Because you saying that you're

do it?" Because you saying that you're willing to take me in is going to allow me to do that. I would say that if you actually have real friends, 10 out of 10 of them would be like, "Yeah, dude. Go

for it."

Like, "I got you." And I think having like I had there was a handful of people that um I probably called every single night during the six months leading into me quitting my job where I basically rehashed the exact same decision a

hundred times uh with them and reerived it.

I think people would be surprised to hear that.

I think people would be surprised to hear that Mr. Decisive seemingly would need to have that conversation. I also think it's

that conversation. I also think it's cool to hear that story because it legitimates somebody's bravery in the face of uncertainty and repetition. I think a

lot of the time we feel like we're a burden to our friends for asking them for advice about the same problem that we've come to with before. I've done it with you and like hey man I Yeah. No,

it's not new.

Yeah. No, it's the Yeah, it's the it's that it's the same thing again. I'm

sorry. is yeah I need to say no no no new perspective no I need to say the ex I need yeah it's going to be it's the conversation from last week but but now

again is that cool so the the the license giving people the license to be boring

in their learning and in their need for support from people like I'm sick of moping about this situation and I have a

friend that's prepared to sit in it with me. That feels really good

me. That feels really good to give more color to that that period because one of the things that Leila and I were talking about was she has a

desire to make successful people more relatable so that people who don't have successful people around them can feel like it is attainable. Mhm.

Um, so I'm going to add a handful of colors to that little chapter and hopefully people will be okay with it.

Um, so in that in that time period, um, many people know this, but I got fired and so like who would fire Hermosi, the hardworking maniac? Well, I just wasn't

hardworking maniac? Well, I just wasn't that good of an employee. Um, and so I basically just read books all day instead of working. Um, and I read most

of the self-help books that you've heard of. Um, hund00 million offers, $100

of. Um, hund00 million offers, $100 million leads. Those were the books I

million leads. Those were the books I kidding. I wasn't reading.

kidding. I wasn't reading.

No, but I was reading, you know, and and to be fair, I don't think any one of them re I say like I can I can say a handful of them phrases in entire books

stuck with me. Um, one phrase I heard in a book, can't remember which one it was, was want.

And the phrase disgusted me so much because it was like, "Oh yeah, all those people who just want to be entrepreneurs." And it just said it

entrepreneurs." And it just said it flippantly. It wasn't even decrying the

flippantly. It wasn't even decrying the term. It just said like, "Oh, yeah. This

term. It just said like, "Oh, yeah. This

is how we define these people who are like not there but like business interested and but the nonchalance is even more insulting."

insulting." Exactly. And that's why and I was like,

Exactly. And that's why and I was like, I'm that I am this disgusting thing. I

don't want to be this. But that still wasn't enough to motivate. It was a negative operating. You know, it was

negative operating. You know, it was negative, but it still wasn't enough.

Um, I listened to Arnold's ladder of success speech that he gave. This is

obviously 15, 16 years ago. Um, it was this speech. I found it on YouTube and I

this speech. I found it on YouTube and I listen to it like every morning before I go to work.

Um, you cannot climb the ladder of success with your hands in your pockets, you know. Um, and I listen to that every

you know. Um, and I listen to that every morning. I um I read uh Relentless by

morning. I um I read uh Relentless by Tim Grover and it was basically the first book that I think gave me permission to use called The Dark Side to get things done. And I'd be like I would say now I don't necessarily

operate 100% from that same perspective, but it was what I needed at the time.

And I called a friend of mine, his name was Victor. He was considering quitting

was Victor. He was considering quitting his job too. And so every night we basically just like planned and schemed of how we're going to our exit plan of how we were going to we just mentally masturbated the idea of like what freedom would be like if we actually

left. And I would have this I you know I

left. And I would have this I you know I had to have an early Bluetooth thing which is a piece of [ __ ] now. Um and I remember I had this cowhide carpet in my apartment that I got from IKEA that the

path that I would walk on while he and I would talk started getting treaded. Um,

so there's this line in the middle of that in my house where I would pace and and the and so the things that that and I and I and I would have the lunch

with my dad, the like, hey, I'm going to I'm going to quit my job and do my own thing. I didn't have that lunch one

thing. I didn't have that lunch one time. I had that lunch many times. And

time. I had that lunch many times. And

each time he would reasonably talk me off the cliff and say, listen, this is the boring chapter. You're just going to do your few years and then you're going to go to business school and like this is the plan. Um, and so it was very

clear that I was following a path that was trod upon. And to be clear, my dad absolutely did what he believed was best. And I think his intentions were

best. And I think his intentions were perfect. Um, and so all of these things

perfect. Um, and so all of these things were happening with me for me during that period of time. And I just remember having read as many self-help books as I could, you know, get my hands on. And

then I looked around my room and apartment and realized that my life hadn't changed at all.

And that was when I Googled online and decided I was going to start a business. I narrowed it down to three. And then one guy got back to

to three. And then one guy got back to me who had a gym. And even then when I had my first conversation with him, I was like, I really want to start a gym.

He's like, so you don't have a gym? I

was like, no. He's like, okay, well, basically, uh, you're going to need to like do something before I can help you.

And he said, you need to make a serious commitment. Make a decision. So, I I

commitment. Make a decision. So, I I thought about this for a while and then um a few weeks later I texted him. I

said like, "I'm ready." And so, I called him back up again. He's like, "Well, okay, great. So, you have a lease.

okay, great. So, you have a lease.

What's the you know, what's the" And I was just like, "Oh, oh, no, no, no. I

don't have that." And he was and he was disgusted and he was like, "Lose my number, dude." Like, and he was

number, dude." Like, and he was disgusted by how little I had done in that meantime. And so, all of these

that meantime. And so, all of these things happened. It wasn't one of them.

things happened. It wasn't one of them.

And so as much as I can say like I just read this one book and my life changed like sometimes you have to hear it a hundred times before it either sinks in or there's enough negative or enough

positive or both that it gets you over whatever perceived threshold of action that you have. And so it was only when all of those things happened and I came to the realization and I also applied to

business school cuz I was like what do I do in the meantime? So I was doing four hours of GMAT uh problems every day because I I was still violent then. um

so that I could ace the GMAT and then I got above Harvard's midcore and then I was starting I was doing all the applications because it's something else that you can do that you can procrastinate with and so I did all the applications into business school and

one of the questions that came up was how will uh a Harvard MBA or Booth MBA I can't remember help your short and long-term goals and I remember belaboring over this this question for 3

days and I answered all the other questions and I was singing about it and I was like I don't think it is going to help my long-term goals because I looked at the math of Okay, it's going to cost me $120,000. This is at the time. Um,

me $120,000. This is at the time. Um,

and I won't be able to make money for two years. So, I'm going to stop making

two years. So, I'm going to stop making money and it's going to cost me 120. And

then the starting salary was 120 or like average starting salary post business school. And so, I thought to myself,

school. And so, I thought to myself, could I take two years, $120,000, and within that period of time believe that I could get to the point where I could make $10,000 a month, but I would

own a business rather than having a job to then maybe someday own a business.

And I believed that that bet felt reasonable. And so even then you're

reasonable. And so even then you're like, "Okay, so that's when he quit."

No. And so it was all of those things and then finally the realization that I that it was never going to get easier.

And so then the fear that I was never going to start the business that I said I wanted to someday start.

The fact that that that I actually had an exploding offer from life, which is that it was only going to get harder and that I realized how hard it had been for me to that point to still not have made a decision. And it was the fear that I

a decision. And it was the fear that I was never going to make it which compelled me to make it.

And that's what got me to pack all my [ __ ] drive my car halfway across the country, and then then and only then call everyone and tell them that I had left so they couldn't talk me out of it.

And so if anyone is like, man, the so decisive hermosi or whatever, like it took a herculean effort and to to suspend a shitload of doubt and risk

aversion. And also in terms of when I

aversion. And also in terms of when I talk about this stuff with caring about what other people thought, I cared so much about every thought other people thought that I I knew that I cared so much about what other people thought

that I wasn't even willing to hear them because I knew if I did hear them, they would talk me out of it.

That's how fragile your conviction was.

Yes.

That one sentence from the wrong person moving you back in that past direction would have pulled you. I needed to physically create so much space that even if they had talked me out of it, it

would still take me a day and a half to drive back. And so the reason I think

drive back. And so the reason I think you read one of the quotes earlier like if you want to change your life, change your environment is so powerful is that your environment as it currently stands

right now, the combination of where you live, where your friends are, the routines that you have, the places you go have created loops of behavior for you. And so the best way to change what

you. And so the best way to change what you're doing is change the entire environment. Like there's the the

environment. Like there's the the Vietnam War vets. They did this research study. You probably heard of it, but um

study. You probably heard of it, but um all these guys did heroin when they were in Vietnam. It was like 25%. It was a

in Vietnam. It was like 25%. It was a gigantic percentage. And then weirdly

gigantic percentage. And then weirdly when they came I think Clear talks about this in his book. Uh when they came back only 10% of the heroin users uh relapsed

into heroin only. I mean but still it's it's small compared to heroin that's yes the success rate of or the failure rate of rehab institutions it's like 78%.

So it had a 8x you know a difference in in in relapse rate but there wasn't even rehab that happened. The only thing that happened was that every single

environmental cue was changed. And so if you are having trouble getting out of your current condition then get out of your current condition. Move. Go to a different city. Even if you can't move

different city. Even if you can't move to a different city, move across town.

Move 30 minutes away. Train at a different gym. Go to a different coffee

different gym. Go to a different coffee shop to work.

Yeah. Make different friends for the short period. And realistically, you

short period. And realistically, you probably won't make different friends.

But just stop hanging out with the friends you got for a period. And if you decide that once you've gone through that session, that series, that chapter, you still want to be friends. If they

are really your friends, they will welcome you back with open arms. If they only were friends with that version of you, then that's not the version of you that you want to be, and that's not where you want to go back to anyways.

And so that was one of the trades that you made to become who you wanted to be.

It's crazy that we think we can change our thinking environment whilst keeping our external environment the exact same.

And we're going to just continue to use I don't know what what type of effort we think it is that we're applying to our own brain whilst experiencing the same

cues and stimulus but hoping that our thinking is going to adapt.

You have to change to change. And it

sounds so like is that sound like a trit truism or whatever like cliche. Yeah.

If nothing has changed, nothing will change. And so you have to be like

change. And so you have to be like something has to be the catalyst and you were the only like either you get in a car accident, your girlfriend breaks up with you, you can use the negative at least like if you are not happy with

your life and then something bad happens to you, be grateful for it in the moment because it means that you a change a chaos variable has entered the building and that means that you have the ability for a short period of time before

equilibrium gets reestablished that you can change [ __ ] without the same consequences because all of your loops got got muddled. Mh.

And so like those are the periods of time where you can go through tremendous change because you're like well [ __ ] it.

Everything that I thought to be true isn't. So what else uh that I think was

isn't. So what else uh that I think was false but isn't and then you can start moving towards it. Came across this line from beauty of

it. Came across this line from beauty of SAS. It is an unwritten rule of life

SAS. It is an unwritten rule of life that after every prolonged period of hardship and uncertainty there is going to be a period where you achieve quantum leaps across multiple areas of your life. The only requirement is that you

life. The only requirement is that you do not give up on yourself.

Failure and success are on the same road. It's just that failure is an

road. It's just that failure is an earlier exit.

Mhm.

Mhm.

What's that one about? Whatever you do, don't be the guy who gives up at the exact moment when you should be fighting with everything you have.

You'll make it through either way, but there's only one way you'll look back and be proud of yourself.

This is the metaphrame of the story that we one day tell. Like we tell stories of who of what type of person we are all day long when we're confronted with different decisions. What type of person

different decisions. What type of person am I? And

am I? And I would like to be known to myself as a fighter is that I'm willing to fight for what I want and for what I believe in.

And I think that and that is why I think I would want to have courage be the one thing that is transferred. M

transferred. M and I think it's because I'm going to go back to that season because I think it's where all of it like

I I was a really good student at Vanderbilt. I was vice president of the

Vanderbilt. I was vice president of the powerlifting team. I was president of

powerlifting team. I was president of the fraternity that I was in. I had a 38 I think GPA. Um and I graduated in three years. But I was so afraid of not

years. But I was so afraid of not getting a job that I took the first job that I was offered from the first person, which was an introduction my dad had from a patient of his. And to be

clear, so we were like, "Oh, it was a it was an epism." It wasn't a great job.

But I was so afraid that I would be jobless that I just took that job. And I

only say this to say that like like you can change your stars.

like I was not the type of person who who does the types of things that I do now then and I I I I retell those stories.

I don't talk about talk about them as much because um honestly I block most of them out because I was in so much pain during that period of my life. And the

reason that I'm willing to keep making content and write books and all that stuff um is because I know that there is a another person who is going through a similar chapter

and worried if they are sane or if it is only them and it is not.

And so like you can't compare yourself to people who are different chapters. You just have to believe that you can change incrementally, one behavior at a time,

over an extended period of time, and that those changes will aggregate, that they will stack up. Um,

because like we don't know what the last chapter is going to look like. We only

know what the next page does. And we get to write that today. And

like I was I was so driven by fear. I was so I was so afraid of everything.

um during that chapter and so it was like other people's opinions what if I fail what if this doesn't work out what if people make fun of me like I had all this this fear around it and like the

emotionality that I have now towards it is because of the the a mix of of pity and pride that I have

for that young man the young Alex that was going through that because I'm proud that I made made it through that, but I also pity the amount of pain

that I was going through um to to to make that jump. And so

I don't I don't know who's listening, but like fear can be useful if you know that you were driven by fear to some degree. And

in some ways it's almost shameful to say it because it was the reason that that the word that I never want to be have used described for me is cowardly is because I behaved like a coward. I was

afraid of everything. I was afraid of failing. I was afraid of my dad's

failing. I was afraid of my dad's judgment. I was afraid of of everything.

judgment. I was afraid of of everything.

And I the the flip that made it for me was just using that fear against something bigger was that I was more

afraid of not of of looking back on my life and never having tried. And I knew that that would be so empty and I would be so filled with regret and that I knew

that I would beat myself up over it every single day as I got older that that existence was was more terrifying

to me than the practical consequences of me taking a step where I would fail. And

it sounds it's very easy for me to say now to you or anyone who's listening like of course the downside's not that big. go to sleep on a friend's couch,

big. go to sleep on a friend's couch, whatever. But at the time for me, it was

whatever. But at the time for me, it was everything and it was all of the status that I had spent all of my time trying to accumulate. I was president of this,

to accumulate. I was president of this, president of that. I'd done all the good grades. I had a good job on paper. Um,

grades. I had a good job on paper. Um,

and so whatever fuel you have, whether it's anger, whether it's shame, whether it's fear, even if you have all of them, like

if you know you have them, try and put them behind you to to get you to run away from it. If it's right now, it's in front of you and it's it's preventing you from taking the next

step. And so it's like if you can just

step. And so it's like if you can just put it behind you so that you're running away from this this future. It's like

run harder away from the future that your current path is taking you towards that you're afraid of than the short-term path that running away from it is going to run you into. It's like

you either have to be, you know, uh it's like in I'm taking some liberties here. Um,

it's like you can either fear the whip of the the person behind you or the enemy in front of you and the direction you face is the one that you fear the the least.

And so if you know that there's an enemy in front of you and a whip behind you, it's like you just need to in the short term increase the pain of the one that you want least.

Have you seen Succession?

Uh, the first season.

Okay. So

I don't watch it because it's too real for me. So, it's it keeps me up and like

for me. So, it's it keeps me up and like basically I get I get too like amped when I watch it because I like it, but I'm like I can't do this before bed.

So, I need like vampires and like in the final season, Tom is having a conversation with his wife and he says,

"I wonder if the pain that I would feel without you would be less than the pain that I feel by being with you.

And that seems to be what you're talking about here.

It's 100% that. And I

you talk in retrospect about that period about what that guy went through.

Doesn't sound like pity to me. It sounds

like grief.

Sounds much closer to grief. Like

somebody nearly died or did die or suffered a lot and didn't deserve it.

Oh, I think that person totally died.

Like the I don't want to say the man I was the boy that I was totally died. And

I think I mean the hardest the hardest loss that I had to take was the the boy that I was in my father's eyes that was living up to his expectations which is all that I wanted.

And so sacrificing that and it took years and my dad and I are cool. We're

great but like for a for a season that's what I I I had to sacrifice that person and it was all I had wanted was to make him happy. And so and again no fault of

him happy. And so and again no fault of his own but that is all I wanted. And so

it's like I had achieve I had achieved the dreams that I had as a younger man and in so doing it had become my nightmare. And

nightmare. And that's why the third point that that you read about no one is coming to save you.

Everything is your fault and you have to sacrifice who you are for who you want to become. Um I think is so real for me

to become. Um I think is so real for me is that you do and like like someone's dreams will die. It is yours or theirs.

So, you just want to make sure that the person who is dreaming for you has bigger dreams for a life than you do.

And sometimes well-intentioned people, because they want to be practical and they want to be realistic, have smaller dreams for you than you do. And if they have smaller dreams, then you should

listen to you and not them.

Obviously, your dad built a a story about what success looks like.

Yeah.

And you rejected it slowly but loudly. M

now that you're about to have a child, what story are you going to tell that kid of of that period or no this story about

what success looks like? Like how how certain are you that the story that you tell your son isn't just a new version of the same cage that you had to break out of?

It's something that I think a lot about.

Um how do I, you know, the the child is going to be born into by the time he has memory, he will be

the son of a billionaire. That's

that's a lot. Um,

and in some ways I like don't wish that on anyone, but I'm and yet I'm bringing someone into that. Um, which has its own

thought circles I won't get into. Um,

but I am going to focus him to the degree that I can influence his behavior. um on

behavior. um on on being courageous on leaving nothing on the field. I will

care endlessly about his effort and very little about the outcomes assuming he controlled the

controllables. and I will

controllables. and I will hold an incredibly high standard and it is because I respect him and believe in

him and that he has the potential to achieve it. And what's been very

achieve it. And what's been very difficult for me cuz I haven't I haven't fully defined this and maybe I will by the time he's born or by the time he's a little older is is I've had trouble trying to define what a successful

parent looks like and what a successful child look like. Because if we decide if we define a successful parent by the output of the child, there's a whole hell of a lot of people that have had pretty tough parents that have turned

out really good. But then does that mean that the parents are good or bad? I

don't know. Um,

and the successful child is the successful child that he is happy. I

tend to reject that that definition overall. Is it that he has purpose? I'd

overall. Is it that he has purpose? I'd

probably prefer that. Um, because I think happiness can be fleeting. Purpose

tends to stick a little longer. Um but

at the very end of the day I think um character which I still just define as just huge sets of behaviors um I want him to be brave and I want him to

try his ass off and if he does that well no matter what he will be good enough for me but uh I will just more so make the commitment that given all the

resources that I have both mental and and financial. Um, I will do the best I

and financial. Um, I will do the best I can with what I have um to give him the maximum possibility of achieving what he wants.

Have you been thinking about life differently for yourself with the prospect of a kid on the way?

Not really. Um, that might surprise some people, but like first off, I'm not pregnant and so I don't believe in the we are pregnant. Uh, I do not have a baby inside of my stomach. Uh, and so um, no, I haven't. Uh, my behavior

hasn't really changed because my conditions haven't really changed. Um I

suspect that when you know the child comes I will I will change accordingly.

And I think that it's this is one of those I would say like uh internet straw mans of like well just wait till wait till the kid comes. I'll be like yeah and then I'll change like there'll be a new condition so I'll change to that.

It's just like what if you change your mind then I'll change what I'm doing.

You know it's just like this has worked for me so far and I'll probably take the things that continue to work and I'll probably adjust others. I don't think that having children in any way is going to get in the way of the goals that I

have. Um, and my my my proof points are

have. Um, and my my my proof points are that the, you know, wealthiest, most successful business people in the world almost all have children. And so, like I see that as pretty strong proof that

it's not something that that prevents you from achieving, you know, business success. And to be clear, business

success. And to be clear, business success for me is more so like I want to leave everything I have on the field.

And if that results in growth, then great. If I have many seasons of

great. If I have many seasons of hardship ahead of me, which I'm sure I do, and moments of plateaus and stagnation and things like that until I figure out whatever the next thing I have to do is or the next person I need to become or, you know, sets of behavior

that I have to do, then that's that's the game. That's that's what I I sign up

the game. That's that's what I I sign up for that. I chose this. Um, but I also

for that. I chose this. Um, but I also know exactly what I chose this what I traded this for, which was the the young boy uh and that life. And I would

happily make that trade 100 times over.

And so I in no way say that my life is perfect or anything. Far is far far from it. But it is the life I chose and I am

it. But it is the life I chose and I am okay with that.

You talked about changing your environment often changing your desired outcomes.

Going to be about as big of an environment change as you've had in uh a decade.

Yeah. More.

Yeah.

I'm sure it will change me. And I

What would be the most surprising outcome?

I think the most surprising outcome is that I don't change at all.

Right. I actually think that the second most surprising outcome.

Um I'll I'll I'll say the outcome that might surprise other people the most is that I think there's a very real chance of a reality where like I work significantly less than I do now. Um

because I prefer hanging out with the kid than I do working and if I do then that's what I will do. Is that a pathway of satisfaction that hasn't necessarily been

front and center of your life for quite a while?

Uh basically being willing to enjoy a moment for the sake of the moment and nothing else. Um

nothing else. Um it's a less instrumental view. Yeah.

A lot of your life and mine as well is very instrumental.

Yeah.

I will do it because I will do it because not I will do it.

Yeah. Also because I enjoy it.

Yeah.

But there's only one more step.

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

yes. And I think it's just because it's in accordance with values that I have.

Like I want to be a good father and so I deem that a label that I would like to live up to and so I'm willing to make some trades.

And I think that's I will I will be making trades in the future and I will try to make the trades the best I can.

It interesting that after a decade and a couple of decades of contorting yourself into this very specific type of engine or a sort of a sort of monster that

sucks in challenges and spits out completed tasks that to most people holidays sound like leisure but to a certain category of people holidays feel

like work because they need to let go of the routine and pathway that they've sort of constructed themselves into.

uh that there might be a lot of work required in order to be able to co-sleep with your kid at 3:00 in the afternoon with it laying on your chest reading fiction or not. You just lying staring

at the ceiling thinking this is cool.

Huh? That should be naturally biologically hormonally energy expenditurally relatively seamless to do. And yet

there's potentially going to be a ton of areas for growth in you there.

I'm sure I'm sure that it will uh be a new challenge and uh I will dedicate my effort to succeeding at it

the same way I do other challenges.

Um and I'm sure I will be uncomfortable as I have been with other challenges.

And I will try and meet that discomfort with action and let myself get used to a new reality. And I I will do my best to

new reality. And I I will do my best to enjoy it every second of it because I mean I do look a lot at older guys who have kids. And I one of the really fun

have kids. And I one of the really fun ones to look at is people who have second families. So they kind of like do

second families. So they kind of like do first run, first wife, kids, whatever.

And then take exit did the first business. How does he run the second one?

Yeah, kind of. And so what's interesting is I've I've tried to observe what those guys do differently and almost to a man they'll say I should have spent more time with the kid and like and it's it's

one thing to say that you you you should have. It's something very different to

have. It's something very different to see them do it the second time around.

Now there's the obvious of like well easy for them to say because they built the empire the first time and so like they get a doover that was collateral damage and getting to the point where they're sufficiently

satisfied. I thankfully, knock on wood,

satisfied. I thankfully, knock on wood, whatever you want to do. Um, I I built what I needed to build to feel

like I had a sufficient platform to provide for a child. Um, in all manners, both like my time flexibility. I work

because I choose to, but like I have the flexibility and we cannot work whatever and and the kid can have whatever. the

side effect of you working whether you chose to or not is a degree of material comfort and ticking off of the accomplishments that closes the loops around them.

I think that um if I can live this season trying to steal as many chapters from people's second go

I'll see that as a good idea and um I'll basically use that off of modeling like I'm just looking at what what good thing seems to happen for them. I'm going to try try

that and I'll adjust as we go, but I'll probably use that as my base case baseline and then and I'll I'll I'll figure we'll figure it out together, you know.

Well, I uh I have a little have a little ah something pending loading.

Yeah, loading competence.

Yeah, it's very important that the baby's got good merch. So,

it's all about the merch.

Yeah, that's right. Well, this uh this spot on

that's right. Well, this uh this spot on him is is uh we have a a retail price for the ad space, so I'll uh I'll let you know and then Okay, that's cool. I imagine I I assumed it would just be acquisition.com, but

front end of the funnel, front side of the baby.

Yeah, it'll be like a NASCAR driver with all the sponsors. Yeah. Yeah. Uh if

you're going to chase a dream, go all in. If you're going to love, love

in. If you're going to love, love fiercely. If you're going to walk away,

fiercely. If you're going to walk away, never look back. So many people never even give themselves a fighting chance because they never fully commit. If

you're going to go, go all the way. Dot

dot dot. No half measures. I was about to say no half measures. Um I was like no know who wrote that. Um

yeah, I think so many solutions are um aren't fully committed to and as a result they don't actually work and then we think oh this this path was wrong.

This business was a bad idea. I

shouldn't have started making content.

um when it never had a fighting chance because we didn't even do close to the amount of volume that would be sufficient for it to work and not for nearly the duration that um would be required. And so it's like people don't

required. And so it's like people don't do enough for long enough to get anything to work. And I think the biggest issue there is because we expect our dreams to be accomplished faster and

easier and risk-f free when it will be hard, take a long time, and we will sacrifice more things than we expected.

And I think one of the hardest parts about um accomplishing big things is that the cost is unknown. So even though it is more than you uh you know you're giving up some stuff, but you still don't even know everything that you're going to give up.

It's like running a race and not knowing how long it is. I don't know where the finish line is.

Yeah. And what's what's fascinating about that is that like if you know where the finish line is, you can usually handle just about anything. Um

it's Uber works.

Yeah.

That's the re the main reason. Yeah. You

can order a cab from anywhere and you don't need to work out the local taxi number and stuff. The main reason why it works is you know how far away the car is and know how long this weight is.

Remember in the before times just ring a cab and it would just arrive.

Yeah.

At some point.

Yeah. I think uh Roy Sullivan had the thing about the uh I think the tunnel uh this is your people's thing but you could see people complained about how long it took and they could either build

another tunnel which would cost billions of dollars or they could do what they did which was just tell you how long you had to wait and it like solved all the concerns.

Right. It was um Heathro airport. Yeah.

Uh Terminal 5. If anyone's ever taken a connecting flight inside of Terminal 5.

It's mad how many times I've done that and it's always the same [ __ ] escalator. I don't know whether it's

escalator. I don't know whether it's because I fly the same route or if that's just the one funnel to go up through internal security for the second time to briefly enter England before you then fly back out without actually being

able to leave. And people were complaining about the fact that it was taking too long to get through security.

And classic engineer problem, they decided we're going to get new detectors and we're going to speed up the conveyor belt and we're going to have an S-shaped queuing system which will spread people out into more fingers so that the

security checking people can get them through and more expeditious just millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in reoperating costs. And Rory

and his team are like, let's there might be there might be a cheaper solution.

And they fixed it by just putting wait time posters 15 minutes from here, 20 minutes from here, 25 minutes from here. And the wait time was always 5 minutes longer than the amount of time it took to get moving

fast. Moving.

fast. Moving.

Yeah, dude. We They said it was going to be 25. We went in 17. We got a bit of a

be 25. We went in 17. We got a bit of a bonus.

Get some good time.

Yeah, dude. That's why that's why his book's called Alchemy, right? Behavioral

science applied well is kind of like magic.

Yeah.

Yeah. But

yeah, the no half measures thing, dude.

Like So much of the pain that people feel when it comes to decisions is in the indecision. Even in

making the decision, it's the uncertainty when they do it. And this is what common

optionality focused advice is, well, if the decision's reversible, then it it doesn't really matter so much, but you should treat reversible decisions still

as if they're irreversible. And this is Brian uh David Epste's new work which is people are much happier with irreversible decisions than with

reversible ones. For instance, if every

reversible ones. For instance, if every jeans store that you went into did not allow returns or exchanges, you would be happier with your jeans. Even if you

wanted to exchange them or return them, the kid store, you can't return the kid. So most people are very happy with their kids. this is

just you can't yeah I mean you can't you can't really go back and so it makes it's way less cognitive effort to just justify and rationalize that it was a good idea so I

am an investor and a huge advocate of uh embryo selection through IVF and Herasite which is the company in the world that's best for this

have just an endless list of philosophical justifications medical justifications biological justifications humanitary humanitarian justifications And I think that if you agree that

trying to avoid disease is good, it scales all the way up to trying to increase robustness, which is pretty much any trait that you care to care about. The thing that I'm still yet to

about. The thing that I'm still yet to hear a compelling case in argument against is buyers remorse because if you

have chosen this particular embryo out of a list of 10 because this one had the particular diagnostic criteria and dashboard that you like to look up. Now, the thing

that's weird is this is already happening by doctors cuz they look through the scope of the microscope and they go, "That one looks round. That one's it's a B C, right? You

round. That one's it's a B C, right? You

don't want the C's. B's probably not.

You've got three A's, two A's in there.

Let's try and implant this. One doesn't

take one, whatever." Uh, so this was already being done and eyeball by the doctor, but even that wasn't your decision. So, you can maybe be angry at

decision. So, you can maybe be angry at the doctor, but it's like, hey, look, we just took the advice of a professional here. We decided to do the thing. That

here. We decided to do the thing. That

is the one element that I wonder whether when this becomes more widespread whether we're going to see just a a little tweak.

I don't think so.

Okay. Just because I don't think the the like cuz it I think it would be more akin to um you go to the gene store and they show you uh maybe like a thread on

a a a thing and maybe a dye and then but the genes that you get you still can't return. And so it's it's so far from the

return. And so it's it's so far from the final product. If they had if you had

final product. If they had if you had six kids and you could only pick one and they were fully you and you could talk to them and then you're like but you can't go back. I think people might have more because you would have seen what the other Yeah. With the full with the full Yeah.

Yeah. With the full with the full Yeah.

Yeah. Don't stop trying because it didn't work. It never works the first

didn't work. It never works the first time. It takes everyone a different

time. It takes everyone a different amount of time to realize everyone is just thinking about themselves. No one

was watching and you should have just done whatever the [ __ ] you wanted to all along.

Yeah, look at old people.

Like old people have it figured out.

They're I mean my I did so my my my father's father died before I was co you know able to function. Um but my dad had called a

function. Um but my dad had called a father figure who functioned as a grandfather on on that side. And one of the things that I always admired about him was that he literally didn't have

time for this.

He's like, "I've got like 10 years. I

literally don't have time for this." And

so his his his give a [ __ ] level was so low um that he just he walked through life

unscathed by the worries that weigh down most people. Like, "Oh, I wonder if I

most people. Like, "Oh, I wonder if I said that uh too rudely to that per."

It's he was just he was he was already on to the next thing. He's like I literally don't have time.

That's the youth is wasted on the young thing.

Yeah. But it's it's one of those like you I so funny you brought that up. I don't

know if youth is wasted on the young. I

think um you just have call it peak cognition and health state and you don't know anything besides like nothing hurts and everything works and then you just

have a a slow degradation of everything works and nothing hurts until and then at the very end you just nothing works and everything and everything hurts.

Yeah. And I think that's just it.

There's definitely a a unique value in the future is long and broad that has equality all of its own that is only

available to people that are young.

Right? That is not nothing and it does not just exist inside of your head.

You're able to make a a materially different type of plan when there is a long amount of time in front of you than when there is a short amount of time in front of you. assuming you don't die or something else happens.

Of course, the or the probability distribution of you being able to fulfill these plans is different.

And this is Bill Perkins thing about it's not memory dividend, but it's you can only do certain things at certain periods of life.

A really great concept.

Yeah. That uh going downhill skiing at 80 is unlikely with your knees. I think

he told me he's 50s and he said um he got offered the opportunity to go wakeboarding. Wake

surfs a lot. He got the opportunity to to go wakeboarding uh year ago, a couple years ago and he didn't want to go. He was tired or something and then he realized thought

this is probably one of the last times I'm ever going to be able to go wakeboarding. I don't think I'm ever

wakeboarding. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to do this again. and

um he did and that that very well might be it. There are certain things that you

it. There are certain things that you can only do at certain times and I think what we're trying to do and it's interesting about that cliche line,

unteable lessons. uh we we choose to

unteable lessons. uh we we choose to learn the hard lessons the hard way. And

what we're all trying to do is get as many cliches into our experience in order to be able to skip over the most well-known pitfalls of the ages

ourselves. Like we're trying, we know

ourselves. Like we're trying, we know that it's coming. We know it's going to happen.

For some reason, we refuse to learn by the doing of others. We have to choose.

We we we decide to do it ourselves.

We're trying to like pick up.

We're trying to embibe the most commonly held wisdom that is least absorbed by everybody. Money won't make you happy. Fame won't fix your self

you happy. Fame won't fix your self worth. You don't love that hot girl.

worth. You don't love that hot girl.

She's just pretty and difficult to get.

You should see your parents more.

Nothing is as important as you think it is when you're thinking about it. All of

your worries were a waste of time.

We're just trying to the mountain of evidence and exposure is greatest and our ability to it's like a it's a some sort of macronutrient which

is unbelievably pervasive and unbelievably hard to absorb like you can ingest tons and tons of it but for some reason and what we're trying to do is find the enzyme or the particular way to

cook this thing so that we are able to finally absorb it but yeah uh it takes everyone a different amount of time to realize everyone is just thinking about themselves no one was watching and you should have just done

whatever the [ __ ] you wanted to all along. Like that is every old person

along. Like that is every old person ever telling you that. It's just a case of okay, how quickly can I believe that the people all of the old people are right? Cuz it's one of two things is

right? Cuz it's one of two things is true. Either all old people have arrived

true. Either all old people have arrived at a similar sort of insight, which is that one, or they've all been inducted

into some sort of SCOP cult to lie to younger people about the same coordinated false flag in order to

get them to do something. I don't know.

I think so. So each of the isms that you just said to me is a clear behavior loop where there is a super strong short-term reinforcer and a very long long-term

one. And so almost all of those are

one. And so almost all of those are things that you would opt for in the short term. And so until you have a

short term. And so until you have a strong thing that tells you that that is wrong, the other magnet is just too strong to resist for the vast majority of people. And I would also imagine that

of people. And I would also imagine that the the older folks have a much closer proximity to death, which I mean, when you see one or two people die, it can it can affect you. When you see like a lot

of people die and the good ones and the bad ones and the in-betweens, all of a sudden you're like, "Wait." Because I think like when you go through death or someone close to you dying, I think one of the most jarring pieces of death is

how quickly everyone else moves on and how everyone just keeps operating as though that person never existed. And of

course there's the like I always remember you know XYZ person and of course that's fine but like the world moves on and I think when you see that happen at times unless you are completely delusional you assume that

they will that it will move on from you and then I think what it does is it creates this huge this this gigantic pill of humility that I think older people have. Not all older people of

people have. Not all older people of course there's there's oddballs but like I think by and large old people are significantly less competitive. There's

less ego, I would say, as a as a class.

They're more like that's a young man's game. Like, I don't I don't want to.

game. Like, I don't I don't want to.

Basically, they just choose not to play at a lot of the status games and things like that because they've just seen people with the best status and the worst status, they all die the same and everyone moves on just the same. And so,

I think they they shift more to more being present because also they could die soon, too. I think that's one of the reasons why seeing somebody who is old playing a game that they should have

transcended gives us a sort of a sense of like we wse a bit. The

it's like cringe almost.

The the businessman who is in his 60s still attending every high-powered conference who already has done the exit as many times as is needed trying to win

the validation of the same group of people who have cycled through a bunch.

He never he never exit. It's like being stuck on the level of a video game whose boss you defeated.

Yeah.

And just going back and running it back again because maybe this time it would be different.

Yeah. I think Arthur Brooks talked about this with like uh like from strength to strength in that book or like the second like everyone has to make this leap from first level of fluid intelligence, high

energy, high work ethic to at some point you make the second jump and some people don't and then it just becomes this kermagins these very miserable older people and he's like you have to make this leap where you switch the way you work. But you're not an old person is

work. But you're not an old person is not going to beat a young person at being young, right? And that's and that's where

right? And that's and that's where people and that's where I think some of that cringe and it happens on both sexes, men, you know, men men and women.

Uh the you know, the six-year-old woman who's trying to pretend like she's 20, like it's Yep. Yeah. There's something there, too.

Yep. Yeah. There's something there, too.

If you're nervous, do more. It's hard to be nervous when you've practiced the same thing a thousand times in a row.

When in doubt, stack reps. Anything you

start, you will suck at. It will be embarrassing, but you will survive. Then

you will realize that looking like a fool lasts a moment. Being one that never started lasts a lifetime.

I think people wildly underestimate the value of accumulating significant enough volume that it's no longer something that you have a reaction to. So you

desensitize yourself to it.

Um and so like for example exposure therapy. And so if you if you

exposure therapy. And so if you if you if you give a speech and you're nervous about the speech, if you do it enough times that you are bored of doing it, that you are sick of the presentation,

you're probably ready. And so I How many times did you do the book launch?

Over a hundred. Easily. Easily over a hundred. Um it was a lot. But but by the

hundred. Um it was a lot. But but by the time that it happened, I was like, I know what the next slide like I had words on the slides, but I knew what the slide was going to say because my my

words started started them before the words appeared on the slide. Um, and

that is that has just become my limus test because I like I said earlier like I definitely cared a lot about what people thought. And so you can do the

people thought. And so you can do the very hard work of not caring what people think or you can do so much work that there's nothing left to control. Like if

you've controlled the controllables then I think at least for me personally my my anxiety levels around performance and things like that go down to essentially zero because it's like I have done this before and before I did both launches

cuz I've had them I've done two big ones now. The first one that I did, I did at

now. The first one that I did, I did at a venue and the the woman who like kind of ran the whole thing, she's like she had people going on stages and all the time and she said something right before I got on stage. She said, "You were the

most calm out of any person that I have seen." And I just remember looking at

seen." And I just remember looking at her in the moment and I was like, "I I have done this before." And I said it a little bit violently, but I was just like, "This is not my first time doing this." Like, I will do exactly what I

this." Like, I will do exactly what I did the last 20 [ __ ] times I did this, and that is all I will come. I

will do my job. And I just that's why I'm a big fan of the the Patriots under Belich like like do your job. Like you

cannot control everything. Do the things you can control. And it just it takes so much of the anxiety and the second loops of thinking and third order consequences that you're worried about out of your

mind because that is it. And so if you if there's a lot of stakes do so much volume that it would unreasonable that you fail. And then at that point, if you do fail, you will not blame yourself because you're like, I

did my part and that's okay and next time I'll try and control the things that are outside.

And the judgment of other people becomes less scary because your likelihood of failure becomes lower overall and less culpable to you.

Yeah.

In uh uh admission. People think after they

uh admission. People think after they fail, they think to themselves like, "Oh, I I should have done this differently. I should have done that

differently. I should have done that differently." It's like, well, think

differently." It's like, well, think about what you're going to say when you fail and then do that before you fail and you probably won't fail. That's why

I think people feel so agrieved when something happens that was out of their control when they'd done everything cuz it is going to suck if there is a

lightning strike in Vegas and you go, "For [ __ ] sake, dude. I worked so hard. I worked so hard. Everything was

hard. I worked so hard. Everything was

done." Yes, it's not your fault, but there's a it's not that frustration won't come and that you won't be agitated at it.

It's a different flavor. And it's

certainly better than blaming yourself, but it's like I think about, you know, botched uh pediatric surgery, something like that.

You know, you got the kid that had been in the traffic accident to the hospital on time, but that surgeon that particular day just wasn't paying the right amount of attention or whatever happened. And then there's, you know,

happened. And then there's, you know, there's some bad outcome.

[ __ ] Like, we did everything. We did

everything. and we did everything is reassuring but it there is a type of lack of control that comes along with that that must be also very difficult to deal with

the same for business launches and everything else.

So two fun things there. So, one, people don't know this, but the day before the launch, the last one, um I had someone filed a TTRO, which is temporary

restraining order to try and prevent me from launching the book.

Let's just say an adversary. And the

hearing for the whether I could do the book launch was at 4:00 on Friday for a launch that I'd spent $10 million on and almost two years of my life plus the

other books leading up to this, right?

And so at 4:00 there was going to be a decision. Obviously it was dismissed,

decision. Obviously it was dismissed, but like there was a world where I was not going to be able there's a parallel universe where I wasn't going to be able to launch the book.

What time did you launch the bug?

9:00 a.m. Saturday,

right?

Like tight.

Did you have to attend the hearing?

No, I had my my my council do it. Um,

but what was interesting is that when like when they when they told me that we that it was dismissed and that we had won or whatever, I um my honest reaction was like darn it would have been a

sicker story. Like I swear to God

sicker story. Like I swear to God because I already was like this book is so good people want to make it illegal.

Like it would have been like the marketing would have written itself. Um

but anyways I say that say like one is like I'm a big believer from a marketer's perspective you should never waste a crisis and that means that there's always a story to tell and you're the best person to tell it to.

The second one is that um especially with a kid coming uh I call them like getting kicked in the nuts type problems which is if if toddler wakes up and then decides to you know if I let's say I had

something that was super valuable and very fragile finds it and then destroys it and it's you know a year and a half you know year and a half old or two years old

in that moment there is nothing that I can I can't there's no screaming there's no punishing it doesn't comprehend what's going on all I would do is condition it to hate me if I were to

punish it in that moment. And so I just have to suffer. Like there's there's nothing to do there. You just suffer.

And you can try and avoid it and put it elevated. Of course, control the

elevated. Of course, control the control, but let's assume that you did that and it still happened. Um and but I think there's a certain amount of peace knowing that like you did what you could

and [ __ ] happens. Like there's just nothing you can do. There's just nothing you can do.

And I think in some ways that's very frank. Like [ __ ] happens to everybody.

frank. Like [ __ ] happens to everybody.

It's interesting how I think about this when I watch uh people perform, especially people that have become very familiar with their craft. So

craft. So people leak out who they are in the breaths in between the things that they're doing.

Hm.

Somebody's character is not revealed with how they pick you up on the first date, but it's how they treat the waiter, whether or not they hold the door open for somebody else who goes in.

And I think about this when I see performers on stage, the watching a band this year and seeing the drummer who is playing and his stick breaks and while

he's playing the particular beat, he just seamlessly switches. this hand

reaches behind him, picks up another one, twills it twice, and then gets back to it. Now, that that is something that

to it. Now, that that is something that you have done 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 times. It's got nothing to do with the

times. It's got nothing to do with the actual role of playing the drums, not the skill or the talent of playing the drums, but it's the breath in between

what he does. And I think about the same here with easy for anybody to look composed when things are going well or even when things are going neutral, but it's very

exposing when things go poorly about their character. It's the breath in

their character. It's the breath in between the big thing. It's you going, well, what I'm here to do is give the presentation for the book. Okay. Well,

how do you deal with a TTRO the night before right?

That's the reach behind. Can I keep going? I see it as um

going? I see it as um I actually so to to and this is not to pop the the bubble of romanticism around it because I do think that's really elegant. Um it's just how you behave

elegant. Um it's just how you behave under different conditions and so if we see personality is how you behave in the aggravative conditions. It means that

aggravative conditions. It means that you can behave under perfect conditions and you can't behave under imperfect conditions which means that you need to practice behaving in imperfect conditions so that you can behave the same way. And so again, part of the

same way. And so again, part of the reason I think of having so much practice uh being basically being a proxy for the preparation is that you will have been exposed to so many different conditions that none of them what happens when the clicker stops working.

Exactly. And I had that happen during one of them. Uh one of my practice I had two the two times I had the clicker stopped working. So I was like, "Oh, am

stopped working. So I was like, "Oh, am I going to do that?" Like it didn't happen. We were live. Um one of the

happen. We were live. Um one of the issues had it have happened, you've already run that, right? We we figured that out. I had

right? We we figured that out. I had

another run where um I had the the case of the book stuff and then it all fell over. Um, I had I had I I had one where

over. Um, I had I had I I had one where like I put it they they were backwards.

They were like upside down or whatever.

So like on the camera.

Tell me about that.

So there's there's there's all these different permutations that like it's like you can you can you can decrease the likelihood of failure if you try and get all the failures out before you actually before it counts.

And I think that's like at least for me how I approach performance is how do I get all the failures out of the way so that I have the highest likelihood of succeeding uh when when the time that matters counts.

I wonder if Elon intended to do that with the Cybert truck. How many times have you tried to throw that steel ball at the window of a cybert truck?

Presumably not. None.

Yeah, presumably it's happened before. You

just get a little bit over excited with too much adrenaline and launch it with too heavy of an arm. Yeah, you'd be surprised how far you can get by only knowing what you want and not accepting

anything else until you get it.

So, we've talked about commitment and and and decisions a lot. Um I find it interesting like decisions the the root of that from Latin is decadere which is to cut off and commitment is the elimination of alternatives and so

they're almost like you know cousin cousin words in terms of their meaning.

Um but by definition if you are the most focused person in the world then you would have nothing but the one thing that you focus on. If

you're the most uh focused reader in the world you would only read. You would not drink. You would not sleep. You would

drink. You would not sleep. You would

not eat. You'd be the most focused reader in the world. Anything that is not reading is making you less focused.

And so if you know what you want, which I think is for many people more difficult because it's not knowing what they want, it's deciding all the things they're willing to give up in order to get what they want because what you want is what you're willing to sacrifice for,

right? And so if we want multiple

right? And so if we want multiple things, which one of the things that we still want are we willing to sacrifice for the one that we want more. And I

think if you get clear on the thing that you're willing to sacrifice other things for that you're willing to put all those things on the altar to sacrifice for the one thing life gets to our point earlier about simplicity much easier because you

have a singular lens to make all decisions through. Kobe was notorious

decisions through. Kobe was notorious for like does this make me a better basketball player? That was it. It just

basketball player? That was it. It just

every decision was filtered through that lens and so it makes decision-m incredibly easy. And so the amount of

incredibly easy. And so the amount of mental bandwidth that you get back is all of it. Um but the the hard part for most people is making the decision

that this is what they want. Um not once you made the decision sticking following through.

Yeah. It's the elimination of alternatives, not the continued commitment to the thing which is none of the alternatives.

We tal like there's tons of stuff on productivity for like switching costs being you know horrendous. But I think that what is not talked about enough is basically the cost of switching desires.

Like you're you're switching wants.

Yeah.

And and the the the amount of time and effort that gets wasted in the loops of making the decision and then yearning for the cost of that decision that you already said was worth it. So, one of

the things that's been really helpful for me for big life decisions when I have, I would say, conflicting priorities, like multiple things that I want, is when I make the call, I'll usually write out a document that

explains all of the reasoning in its it's an it's an it's an in its totality so that I don't So, one, if I if I if I have this moment of doubt again, I revisit it and then I read it again and

then it basically closes the loop almost instantly. And so, rather than have

instantly. And so, rather than have these endless thought loops, I'll have one or two, I'll reread it and then it kind of goes away. And this is especially on on the relational side. If

you let's say you had a breakup or something like that and you're like or maybe you were the one who did the breakup and you know you could get them back but you don't know if it was the right decision blah blah blah like writing out every reason that you did it because you forget. And this is the

whole point about punishment fades and reward sticks is that in the moment of pain after she comes back and she's crazy, you have to remind yourself of all the [ __ ] of all the things that you know you will forget. So it's almost

like you're writing a warning letter to your future self of like don't forget about this. Remember the time she keyed

about this. Remember the time she keyed your car? She did it again. Right? Like

your car? She did it again. Right? Like

you have to put all those things down so that when you're in that moment of nostalgia looking back, you know what?

Those were the good old days. You know,

she wasn't so bad. Maybe I was being a little bit uh unreasonable. You can read again. You're like, "Oh my god, I can't

again. You're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe thank god I I made that call."

But that way, you don't actually have to then waste the next six months relearning the same mistake again because you already documented in an artifact.

That's called borrowed authority exercises.

Borrowed authority, but instead of borrowing it from someone else, you're borrowing it from a past version of you.

M yeah, I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. The the fading affect bias thing is pretty fascinating. Adam

Masriani says that uh tragedy plus time equals comedy is the closest thing that exists as a formula in human psychology. Tragedy

plus time equals comedy. Like some stuff that was kind of horrendous in the past over a long enough time horizon becomes neutral or hilarious and some stuff

sticks about as bad, but even the bad isn't as bad. But yeah, it's a tragedy plus time equals comedy is kind of true.

And I think that's one of the reasons why Gallow's humor that uh soldiers use when they're away that was talking to this British SAS guy and he got one of

his teammates got friendly fired in the ass uh by a misfire from someone's handgun and they're in the middle of a firefight surrounded by enemy combatants. They're now going to have to

combatants. They're now going to have to get this guy out of there. That guy is not going to be able to fight anymore.

They're going to have to sub someone in for the team. Maybe this means everybody everyone just started laughing. It's

like for [ __ ] sake, everyone laughed.

Like I I do get the sense that trying to bring forward humor as a tool. How do

you think about that? Like you serious guy take up a suit uh with a um an existential level of of

drive. How do you think about the role

drive. How do you think about the role of humor? So, it's funny that you even

of humor? So, it's funny that you even said serious guy because like I would say I'm serious on this podcast because we talk about serious things, but like um if you were to talk to my team like

the recording studio is a not PG zone.

It is not like everyone knows there's two places HR is not allowed. One is

where I record and the second is the gym and like there's just no HR allowed. I

just got to deal with whatever side of me. Um, but if you were to look at my

me. Um, but if you were to look at my newsfeed right now, it is entirely standup comedy. And so I'm probably

standup comedy. And so I'm probably closeted or not not like I'm a I'm a huge stand-up fan. I it's almost all that I consume. And it's because I think that comedians are modern day

philosophers. Um, they point out these

philosophers. Um, they point out these apparent truths that we don't want to look at. and some comedians,

look at. and some comedians, some and but what's interesting about comedy specifically is that most of the time they say statements

that they would be punished for saying in any other condition than on stage.

And so comedy gives this veil of protection, which I think we need to protect. um

protect. um for them to say things that like if you think about comedy at the most basic level for like a human, kids can laugh when they see someone do something they should get punished for but not get

punished. So you see Roadrunner get

punished. So you see Roadrunner get smashed with a hammer or whatever um and then they laugh, right? Or you see, you know, Three Stooges, like you know, whatever. And so it's slapstick because

whatever. And so it's slapstick because that's the level of humor that a child can understand, but it's basically punishment avoided.

And so we laugh. And so when somebody goes up there and says something they should get punished for, they should get bonked on the head, but they don't, we laugh. And so I find that like

laugh. And so I find that like endlessly. I mean, I laugh um a lot. So

endlessly. I mean, I laugh um a lot. So

uh I don't remember the question was, but yeah, I'm a big fan of comedy.

Yeah, it was uh what's the role of comedy in manipulating using using humor as a tool, I guess, in

that way. But I the ability to dispel

that way. But I the ability to dispel this thing feeling serious. Yeah,

by laughing at it is kind of magical.

It's like the bogurt in Harry Potter.

Like, how many of my big fears can I just laugh about how funny this will be soon?

Uh, and if I can pull if I think it's going to be funny eventually, I might as well think it's going to be funny today.

That's a [ __ ] great archive poll to think about the boat in in Harry Potter, which is how you do it. It's to make it look silly. this is the thing that you

look silly. this is the thing that you are most scared of and the way that you get it to [ __ ] off is to turn it into something hilarious.

I still remember the first time I learned about this. I was probably 11.

Um my friend um we were on this road trip and he at 11.

Yeah. Well, I was there were parents who were driving. Yeah. But there's there's

were driving. Yeah. But there's there's him and his brother, right? Yeah. We

were just crushing crushing life. And um

and right before the road trip, he uh they had just picked um like those those yellow cherries, whatever those are. You

know, the little they're like cherries, but they're yellow and red, like golden cherry. They look like golden apples,

cherry. They look like golden apples, but they're whatever. They're cherries.

Some sort of cherry. And they just picked them from like the tree that had just gone ripe, whatever. And there was a whole bowl of them, and he had all of them. Uh and then we went in the car to

them. Uh and then we went in the car to go on this road trip. And about an hour into the trip, he's like, "I I I need to go to the bathroom." And they were like, "Well, we're not there yet. Like, we'll,

you know, we'll stop at the next bathroom." He's like, "No, no, like I I

bathroom." He's like, "No, no, like I I really need to go to the bathroom." And

so, they had to pull over to this like small town that had nothing. And they

literally knocked on doors to see if someone would let an 11-year-old kid uh in. And so, there was an old lady who

in. And so, there was an old lady who said yes through a window. I couldn't

even make this up. and we had to go through this spiral staircase up to her her flat or whatever her apartment. And

I was behind him because they were like, "Well, all of you kids are going to go use the bathroom if we're going to stop, right?" And so it's his dad, it's the

right?" And so it's his dad, it's the it's the old lady, his dad, him, me, and then his younger brother, and then the mom. Actually, the mom in the car, but

mom. Actually, the mom in the car, but anyways, that was the that was the lineup. I'm looking up and as we're

lineup. I'm looking up and as we're walking up, I just remember this horrendous smell. And then I was like,

horrendous smell. And then I was like, "Oh my god, he's ripping ass." And then I see just a [ __ ] deluge of [ __ ] just

come out and drip down his leg and it's on the steps and he's walking through and we're all trying and it was horrendous. And he's 11 and anyways he

horrendous. And he's 11 and anyways he goes he has to wear his dad's boxers because he shits his pants, right? So

his dad doesn't have boxers, he has his dad's boxers on and he was so humiliated and he was like don't [ __ ] joke about it blah blah blah blah. and and

obviously we're 11, right? And so and so his mother when she saw it cracks up at this happening even though he's like super serious about it and she says you

are going to laugh about this in a few years like this will be a very funny story and I just remember that she was already there she like she was already there she was already this is hilarious

and she was like it might take you some time but this is very funny and I that was like that was the time where I learned that was Like

your tragedy plus time is comedy. Ken,

if it becomes that eventually, then you might as well have it now. Of course, we have a TTRO. Haha. Like, how ridiculous is this?

Unreal.

What a better story it'll be. Cuz like I don't remember anything about that trip besides the fact that he [ __ ] his pants.

That'll definitely breach the threshold for emotional activation. Yeah. Like

novelty and intensity are the two things that create emotion. That that would create memories. That's definitely one

create memories. That's definitely one of them. that talking of the young

of them. that talking of the young people thing. Young people don't want to

people thing. Young people don't want to work hard anymore. No, young people don't want to work hard anymore for you.

You have to create a company worth working hard for.

Yeah. I mean, I just fundamentally reject that humans have somehow changed.

Um I do think that there are going to be preferences that change between um uh what do you call not classes uh generations. Thank you. Generations. Um,

generations. Thank you. Generations. Um,

but they just work differently. But

there, I mean, I see some 15-year-olds, 20-year-olds that are just as motivated as 15 and 20-y olds. And I see some lazy 15 and 20-year-olds that were just as lazy as 15 and 20-year-olds that I knew.

I think it's just convenient more than anything. And typically, it's easier for

anything. And typically, it's easier for older people to say that we had it harder and you did. So what? And also,

most generations say, "I want to make it better for the next generation." And

then when it is better for the next generation, we resent them for it being better and easier. But wasn't that the point? And so it's really just like

point? And so it's really just like resenting them for receiving the gift that we gave them.

What does creating a company worth working hard for mean?

I think it's a combination of the micro environment within the company and then the global reinforcer that the company stands for. And so I see when when Elon

stands for. And so I see when when Elon says, uh, we're going to, you know, Mars, or more realistically, we're saving humanity, which is, I think, what most of the people who are bought in,

um, on his vision see, um, he's created the most noble cause of all kind that you should, a goal big enough that it's worth suffering for.

And so people are willing to suffer as long as the price is worth it, we're willing to go through just about anything. And so making the company

anything. And so making the company worth suffering for or worth working hard for is about number one making sure that where we're going is a place that people feel inspired to work towards,

right? I think this is worth doing. On

right? I think this is worth doing. On

the micro, it's okay, how can I make the work environment something that people want to come back to? And that a lot has to do with just training leaders and managers in order to make environments

that ward off people who suck and encourage people who don't suck.

Yeah. If you have a company that continues to get great talent that you should, you can hire people who just weren't right or were not going to work hard or weren't going to be bought in, but after a while, especially if you've

got enough staff that work for you, if they continue to be demotivated and to not want to work hard, it's a you problem. What What What's more likely

problem. What What What's more likely that all of your exes are [ __ ] who are argumentative or that you're the argumentative [ __ ] Because you are the common denominator between all of these different exes or them. Me and them, there's two. them

or them. Me and them, there's two. them

is the other, right?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

No, but so no to your point in seriousness, um if we if we see that as culture, right, which is this big amorphous term, but obviously it's in the business world, so I've define it, which is um the rules that govern reinforcement in organization, right? So

what are the if then statements that when someone does this, this happens?

And so the culture of any group, not necessarily even a company, but of any team, any any group of people, it's going to be what are all the things that are rewarded? What are all the things

are rewarded? What are all the things that are punished? And then kind of third category is what are the things that um are themselves reinforcing that we permit but we shouldn't, right? And so being really clear and

right? And so being really clear and this is why I'm big on defining things in observational terms is so instead of saying, "Hey, uh Susie was lazy." We say like Susie doesn't respond to Slack

quickly and she showed up late to two meetings. Okay, so that's what she did.

meetings. Okay, so that's what she did.

Is she lazy? That's a label that doesn't really help anybody. But if I can tell Susie, hey, people are beginning to describe you as lazy and it's because of these things. I'm

assuming you don't want to be described as lazy, right? Okay. If you just ch do this instead next time. And it just it just it cuts out so much of the noise of like this generate. It's like many of

the times they don't even know that's what good looked like.

No one ever defined success. No one ever defined what the what the standard was.

And so I see that probably the most important job of the leader is to hold the standard. Is to define what good

the standard. Is to define what good looks like in observable terms so that everyone knows this is success. Mhm.

Therefore, failure is also obvious, right? And then obviously all the

right? And then obviously all the downstream implications of that of how do you model behavior so that other people do it, etc. It's very hard to have a vision when you have bills to pay.

I saw this old white guy giving financial advice on TikTok, getting roasted in the comments, boomer, fake guru, etc. The guy was Ray Dalio. That's

when I realized there was no amount of success that can legitimize you to the ignorant. If you actually met everyone,

ignorant. If you actually met everyone, you'd realize some people aren't worth being loved by. It's a good thing to be hated by a bad person.

violent agreement, but that that moment with Ray Dalia was like it was actually like there are these moments that you have that change the way you behave and that was one for

me that I don't want to say it was the last nail in the coffin because I don't think anyone is impervious from outside influences but it was a significant nail in the coffin of the public opinion uh

for me in terms of content um because when I like I because I think to some degree maybe I'll just speak for There's always a chase for more

legitimacy. Like, am I legit yet?

legitimacy. Like, am I legit yet?

Am I like, do I need to be billionaire?

Yeah. Do I need to be a billionaire to be legit? Do I need to be a deca

be legit? Do I need to be a deca billionaire to be legit? Like, when am I legit? Right? Um, which which really

legit? Right? Um, which which really means when will everyone love me and no one hate me?

But when I and I when I was writing that, I was thinking to myself like, oh, everyone loved me. Well, I've met a lot of people that I think that if they

loved me, I don't think I would like me.

I wouldn't see that as a compliment.

Yeah. And so then it was like, "Oh, well, this is just this is a fixed cost.

I just would prefer to be liked by the correct people and I should prefer to be disliked by the incorrect people." In

which case, great. Some people didn't like me. That makes sense. I'm not for

like me. That makes sense. I'm not for everyone.

Adam Masion's got the two laws that govern the internet. The internet is a very big place and people have differing opinions.

Just when you combine those two things together, it means that some huge portion of people are going to hate you.

Yeah.

And as you get exposed to more, given that the internet is a very big place. I

had uh Joe Santagardo on the show. Um

one of the biggest podcasts in the world recently sold out MSG [ __ ] huge. Sat

there and the first thing that I said to him, I was like, "Dude, you they do the same plays as we do on Spotify. the same

play. They got their award, their uh button award. That's literally the same

button award. That's literally the same announcement. I got mine. Nonzero number

announcement. I got mine. Nonzero number

of [ __ ] plays, right? Worked very

hard at it. Like, Joe, what do you think is the uh big podcast just sold at MSG.

I do tours too. I podcast like how ven diagrammy how much? And he's like, I think it's like the headlights of a [ __ ] Jeep. It's like two big circles.

He's 80% women at his live events. It's

90 95% women for him and his co-host.

Hilarious comedian.

I've never heard of it. So yeah,

being on YouTube, The Basement Yard, Joe, like [ __ ] awesome talent. Like

generational talent at what he does.

All of the comments. All of the comments. I like this guy. Who the [ __ ]

comments. I like this guy. Who the [ __ ] is he? The internet is a really big

is he? The internet is a really big place. It's a really, really, really big

place. It's a really, really, really big place. And sometimes you can have that

place. And sometimes you can have that which is, wow, two van diagrams come together and they actually mix quite nicely. Other times it's like oil and

nicely. Other times it's like oil and water. And given the fact that the

water. And given the fact that the internet's a big place and lots of people have different tastes, the problem I think is taking feedback from people who you

think are your people but aren't. M

because the difference between huh this person is unencumbered and has a type of uh unbiased perspective of me that is

novel and useful to take as opposed to people who have seen a lot of me and can frame maybe I was a bit mean but they know I've got enough ballast in the system that they give me a pass as opposed to this person that saw me for

the first time was like I think you were a bit rude to that person you go [ __ ] actually do you know what maybe I was but the other side being this person just isn't my people

determining those two from the internet with the disembodied egg profile thing or everybody everybody now especially with how the platforms work. Everybody

can go viral because it's no longer about followers which I feel like unbelievably annoyed by that I was small when followers mattered and now I'm big

when just content matters. Like I I invested into the market when it was really really difficult and now that I'm at the top of the market, it means that it's easy for everybody at the start.

Whatever. But the same thing.

How do you how do you really feel?

Yeah, it's true. It's true. It is. It

is. Uh the followers seem to matter an awful lot and meant that you just piss out huge plays because of your subscriber base. And now everybody, but

subscriber base. And now everybody, but the fact that anybody can go viral, how fantastic. It's egalitarian. It means

fantastic. It's egalitarian. It means

that new creators can come through and I've seen lots of them and I coach lots of them and help them to try and get up.

But at the same time, that means that people who aren't creators can go viral.

Someone can just yap because they wanted to. I was on this American Airlines

to. I was on this American Airlines flight and I can't believe that this thing happened, but you wake up the next day and you're a headline. You go, "Ah, I don't know if all of these people who don't know who I am are my people or

not." And the feedback is very difficult

not." And the feedback is very difficult to discern.

Or if they see the 15 seconds, I think there was that lady who had that she, you know, went off on the airline pilot.

I I don't know anything about it. I

literally only know that. I thought you were going to say the one about um that this is like 10 years old now. The chick

that said uh I'm heading to Africa. Hope

I don't get AIDS. Lol. Just joking. I'm

white. Um and she got she tweeted it before she got on the plane. Got off the plane and her whole life was in flames.

Family Guy did a bit about this. Brian

did it before he got on a plane. So

good.

and they saw and the world saw however many less than you know 280 whatever the characters is and took that and then just said this I know everything about who you are yeah this is everything that

you are um and I think that in a nutshell is like why we can't take too much weight for okay that they have consumed 280 characters of every character that you've ever said or thought in the

history of you it's like one thing that um I think brought to to argue the complete opposite side of this. Um, I

think there's a very powerful question which is what if they're right.

Mhm.

And and so what? So, for example, I get a ton of like juice head gear, steroids, whatever.

Said Jew said, I don't get that one. Um, but

but I get a lot of like steroid related stuff, especially if I don't have uh, you know, my my flannel on. Um, and I used to be like really offended by it.

And then uh Ila was like, "You've taken steroids." And I was like, "That is a

steroids." And I was like, "That is a fair point.

What if that ride?"

Yeah. And it's just like And I was like, "Oh, this makes sense." And then like Ila people, you know, get after her her voice being low and uh it's like she's like, "I took steroids."

So yeah, that's how that happens.

Anyways uh moving on.

Yeah.

Do you know Joe Hudson? Have you come across him yet? No, he's been on my podcast. He's uh Sam Alman's coach, head

podcast. He's uh Sam Alman's coach, head of human culture, performance, something at OpenAI, like one of only maybe two or three people that deserve the title of master coach. Dr. K being one of them.

master coach. Dr. K being one of them.

Probably Tony, I guess, too. And uh his handle on Twitter is FU Joe Hudson. And

I was like, where's the FU from? It's

like because people say [ __ ] you Joe Hudson. because that one of my friends a

Hudson. because that one of my friends a long time ago said, "You know what, Joe, you're an asshole." And I thought about it for a while and I realized I am an [ __ ]

So sometimes the things that people say to you just are true. They're just

right. And in the fighting against it is where all of the pain is.

That's all the pain. Exactly. And then

as soon as that like that happened, I either that comment stopped happening as much or I stopped seeing it. I don't

know which one actually happened but either way it stopped affecting me and so like I mean I guess it is simply a frame of acceptance of like what if they're right well maybe they are right and so what

what does that mean? Oh, well the answer what works whether they're right or wrong.

Which is why I mean that's one of your old ones, right?

I'm thinking about one of my favorite lines of yours that I keep coming back to this year.

The stress of being perfect will kill you more quickly than your imperfections.

Stress of trying to be perfect will kill you more quickly than your imperfections. I think there's a

imperfections. I think there's a burbling but pretty rapidly growing anti-optimization cult at the moment. And I think that people are feeling overwhelmed with

advice. I think they're uncertain about

advice. I think they're uncertain about the future. There's loads of chaos going

the future. There's loads of chaos going on. Is AI gonna take my job? Is the Iran

on. Is AI gonna take my job? Is the Iran war going to bleed over here? What's

going to happen? Is Trump going to run for a third term? Is there going to be a civil war? There's too much. There's too

civil war? There's too much. There's too

much information. I'm overwhelmed with screens. I haven't got good sleep. I'm

screens. I haven't got good sleep. I'm

taking too supplement. And they just want someone to simplify life. You can

simplify life by trying to wrangle it down into an aggressive routine. But

what that looks like from the outside a lot of the time is sort of fragility.

And this is your America was built on the backs of men who ate bacon for breakfast and smoked cigarettes. Like if

you miss your morning routine today, you'll be fine. Um the line between this is important for me to improve my mental health in order to create the structure that I need to make progress and this is

a glorified rain dance that I'm doing because I'm superstitious about how things work. I even saw this with Joo.

things work. I even saw this with Joo.

the first ever episode I did with Joo, he was in a bit of a tur mood as a tur man that was like tur squad and um and someone brought it up

to him afterward uh a couple of months later on Twitter and he said I hadn't I hadn't trained that morning. I was in a bit of a grump hadn't been to the gym and I reflected about that a lot and I brought it up to

him. I spent a few days with him over

him. I spent a few days with him over Christmas and uh I was like remember when that Yeah. So interesting because training is obviously the

structure that you have built a lot of things on and it makes you feel good and it facilitates your performance but if the removal of the training

doesn't allow you to do the thing there is a kind of fragility that's baked into the system there like you want to be able to perform regardless of whether you've got to train or not and the training builds on top. Does that make sense?

A thousand%. If the if the routine that you do is additive, great. Then you have baseline performance without it. If the

routine creates dependence to do baseline performance, then it becomes a crutch and then you become fragile. And

so, yeah, I'm I would say on this on the spectrum of routine versus [ __ ] maxing, I'm on the [ __ ] maxing side of like just work. um grab, you know, grab your grab your stim grab your stimmies

and uh and get to it. And I think it's because my I think one of my big fears um in life was is is becoming soft. Is

allowing like nothing feels like success is letting the laurels soften me to the game, which is like the reason that I still do like Q&A with, you know,

smaller business owners that are, you know, doing, you know, a few million dollar a year or whatever is that's going to come off weird.

um is I have to stay connected to the earth. I have to stay like grounded here

earth. I have to stay like grounded here otherwise I will lose the edge that is where all the details are one.

And so um I'm a I'm a as a flag for self. If you cannot function without your routine, your

routine owns you. You do not own it.

Full stop. If it's just additive, great.

And that means that if you don't have it, you should still be able to win.

Because one of my big beliefs is whenever someone has an excuse for losing that's like, "Well, it wasn't a perfect day for me." It's like there's this um scene in I think it's Invictus.

It's uh Matt Damon movie. He's like a rug ball rugby player, whatever with Morgan Freeman, South South Africa. Mhm.

And there's this scene where Morgan Freeman is Nelson Mandela and he's talking to Matt Damon and uh I think Matt Damon says something to the degree of you know uh we're we're

not playing it 100%. And I think Morgan Freeman says no one ever is and it's it was it was like I don't even think it's a quoted part of the movie but I remember seeing that and being like [ __ ]

like no one's ever at 100%. It's like

saying I can I can win the I can win with if I have perfect weather, perfect conditions, perfect whatever. And so I think that's why having trying to get all the failures out so you can try to create or recreate the randomness that

imperfect conditions can and still win.

And I think that's why I'm such an advocate of of uh of just win like like it does like it just because the thing is is after the game is played no one

remembers whether the ref gave you a bad call or the weather was bad or whether your starting lineup had two entries on it. No one remembers.

it. No one remembers.

And so if they're not going to remember it in 20 years, then it should be a reason that we're going to try and lose today.

There's a Floyd Mayweather quote where he says, uh, you felt like you were on your A game today. And he says, I ain't got to use my A game, my B game, my C game. I can use my Z game. I don't even

game. I can use my Z game. I don't even have to hit him hard. The result's going to be the same. The prospect of being able to beat somebody with your C game is really [ __ ] cool.

I love it. It's violent.

Most people think the hard part is getting started. The hard part is

getting started. The hard part is continuing to do the work when the excitement wears off and the grind feels hopeless.

The visual that I always think about this is the marathons. Marathon runners

is that people get excited at the very beginning of the marathon where there's all these balloons and their friends and they're like che them on. There's music

and then at the end of the marathon is where everyone cheers you on at the end.

But the marathon is one in the 26.1 miles between those two tenth of a mile.

And it is the boring, unending, relentless, mundane middle.

And I think the game is mastering the middle. It's just the it's just

middle. It's just the it's just unending, unyielding. And

unending, unyielding. And everyone can get motivated for a moment.

It's just like people feel motivated, but like motivation is is incredibly ephemeral, right? It vanishes. And

ephemeral, right? It vanishes. And

that's why having creating the conditions that make failure less likely is so important because if we can make successful actions the most likely actions, success becomes the most likely

outcome.

And I think that is like that is the piece that people miss because they actually stack their deck against themselves by never arranging the conditions to make successful actions

the most likely action.

So, it's like I have to have like I have to use perfect willpower to go out with my friends and not drink. I have to uh and because of that, I'm going to stay out late, but I can I'm going to have I'm going to get home and immediately

fall asleep and and if I if I fall asleep perfectly, I will get up by the time that I have this interview or by the time I need to give this presentation. Um, and they need

presentation. Um, and they need everything to go perfect in order to have one win. when it is much more let's use anti-fragile to set up the condition so that everything can go wrong and you

can still win. So when we did the launch for the money models launch one of the frames that we had is we wanted it to be inevitable. And so in order for it to be

inevitable. And so in order for it to be inevitable we wanted to have three or four different ways that we could break the record was that like if we only do this we break the record. If we only do this we break the record. If only this happens

we break the record. If only do this break we break the record. And we

figured that if each of these had 80 or 90% likelihood of of of happening that the likelihood that we'd break the record would be very high. And at the end of the day, we still didn't know.

But I think stacking probabilities and in in thinking about I'm going to I'm going to bridge this for a second, but I think the number of ways that people attack the problems in front of

them is not nearly enough in terms of volume and not with nearly enough the intensity. Like they're not going at it

intensity. Like they're not going at it with full measure. Like if you knew that your your family was going to die or the thing that you care about most was going to disappear. How differently would you

to disappear. How differently would you attack this problem and how many different ways would you attack the problem? If you said, "Ah, man. I I

problem? If you said, "Ah, man. I I

don't have a job right now." It's like, "Okay, well, what have you actually done?" Right? And it's like, "Well, I

done?" Right? And it's like, "Well, I applied to three places." It's like, "Okay, cool. Well, how long did that

"Okay, cool. Well, how long did that take you? It took me 45 minutes." Okay,

take you? It took me 45 minutes." Okay,

how many hours are there in a week? How

many hours are there in a month? What

are you doing that's not that that is increasingly likely that you get it?

Basically, nothing. And so there's nothing that stops you from applying to a 100red or a thousand jobs in a month.

And the likelihood if you apply to a thousand jobs and you have the requisite uh requirements that you don't get one is very low. And so it's just like why are you not doing that? And I don't know the answer to that because I've just been a relatively violent person by nature.

Um but I think once you have a very clear path to getting what you want, it's like okay, how do I remove everything that prevents me from getting it?

Mhm.

Mhm.

Not in a self agrandizing way. I am

flawed too, but I'm just saying it helps.

It's It is true that more dreams are destroyed by distraction than incompetence.

And that's in the micro, but in the macro as well, a billion%. If you had So, if you had a

a billion%. If you had So, if you had a a white room that you were locked into, and there was nothing in the white room except for one black dot. What is the

most interesting thing in that room? The

one black dot. And so people struggle to get motivated to do the work because there are other more interesting things to do than the work. And so you're not going to willpower your way through

making work more interesting. But you

can absolutely put yourself in a situation where work becomes the most interesting thing.

And that is how you do a shitload of work.

We talked a lot about risk. I said, you know, over the last sort of 12 months, looking at what you've talked about, uncertainty, managing risk, but respect is something else you've been thinking about a good

bit. What have you another R word, the

bit. What have you another R word, the other R word? What have you been thinking about to do with respect?

Well, one that you I'm so excited you I'm so excited you asked. Um, so I've been trying to think

asked. Um, so I've been trying to think about the operation of respect because I thought, okay, what what is something that I' I've wanted my whole life,

right? I think many men want respect.

right? I think many men want respect.

Some people say status, but I'll I'll define respect um as this.

So respect is letting someone else's word change what you do even when they cannot make you. So if I respect someone, what they what they say changes what I

do even though they cannot force me to do it.

And so there's two sides of respect.

There's the earning of respect and there's the giving of respect. And so I was trying to encapsulate this into an acronym that I could remember because I know I'm going to talk about this a lot, especially with our leaders, the

company, because leaders want respect.

That makes sense. But how do you how how how do you gain respect and then also not pass the line of being a tyrant, right? And so the acronym that I have is

right? And so the acronym that I have is powers which is the behaviors that earn respect is number one is that you pay the cost which is that you sacrifice for

the group where they can see it. So if I I remember the first time um so when I was when I was a pledge back in my fraternity days it's a group where everyone's even right no one's no one's

special and there was a particular senior who was known for being a bad hazer and he called the goats and so the goats had to go to the house and you had to go in pairs right and so he called one guy and the guy was like

it's goats it's just a derogative term derogatory term for a pledge okay yeah worms goats whatever um well goats cuz they're gophers and they go do [ __ ]

for you. Anyways, they um and so he just

for you. Anyways, they um and so he just looked at the group of, you know, 18 other guys and he's like, "Who wants to come with me?" Cuz we knew he was going to get hazed. So, somebody just has to basically sacrifice themselves. And so,

I remember was like, "I'll go with you, dude." And it's a tiny act where that

dude." And it's a tiny act where that sacrifice gains respect from the whole group because that micro benefits everybody else for not having to go through it. And so, when you are in a

through it. And so, when you are in a new organization, this is the operation for respect. you sacrifice yourself in a

for respect. you sacrifice yourself in a way that benefits the whole um in a way that is visible. You don't have to do it visibly because then it looks cringe but like they will see it eventually.

Signing up early.

Yeah. Number two is outcomes which is that things get better when you are involved for everyone. And so

functionally it's competence which I would define as outcomes improve with your involvement that are traceable to you repeatedly. So it's the opposite of

you repeatedly. So it's the opposite of luck or free riding right? Three is

word. Your word, right? The W, which is what you say will happen happens. And

what you say you'll do, you do.

E is in force. And this is the sticky one I'll get to more in a second, but it's you don't let people cross you consistently.

The R is restraint, which is that you hold back when you could punish more and you give more credit than you need to.

And then S is steady is that you function in highstake situations the same as normal situations.

And so what ends up happening is that enforcement is basically your compliance floor which is that if I enforce rules of like this is how I want to be treated

then people will at baseline just do that. But that is where you have a

that. But that is where you have a tyrant on it on their own because you need the other ones to have respect. You

have to be competent. Like if you have just uh enforcement of rules but you have no competence, things is not better for anyone, you've never beared any cost, everyone [ __ ] hates that guy. And the

moment their ability to make that person's life worse goes away, so does the behavior. And so the key that

the behavior. And so the key that separates basically fear driven or compliance versus respect is that they have to be able to do it even when you have no ability to make them.

Now on the flip side, if you have all of the competence things, but you have no enforcement, then you're the admired doormat. you do things for everyone, but

doormat. you do things for everyone, but like no one respects you.

So then the next thing that comes up is like, okay, so enforcement, and this is probably the hairiest of the of the ones that is still required. And so there's three things that have to happen in

order for you to be obligated to enforce a standard, which is that number one, someone has to know the standard you have. You're like, "Please do not talk

have. You're like, "Please do not talk to me that way. Please do not address me in that manner." whatever the whatever whatever do not do not turn in the dinner that's cold whatever they have to have a known standard.

Number two is that they have to have the ability to adhere to that standard and then three choose not to.

Mhm.

Now a lot of times people can feel disrespected but if you've never articulated that this is a preference of yours that you do things a certain way and then you basically punish someone for treating you in a specific way without ever having told them then that

is when you'll be seen as tyrannical.

unspoken standards are premeditated disrespects.

Yeah. And so, so imagine the situation where you have a chef who's, you know, he takes a a [ __ ] hole, turns it around, is, you know, best-in-class chef, and

he's got um a new and he's known for both being incredibly hard, but everyone who works for him loves him. So, it's

like, how do we how do we manage these this apparent contradiction? So, new new sue chef comes in, messes something up.

The plate get comes back in, and then the head chef takes it, dumps it, and looks at the kid.

He says, "You just cost us that table.

We're going to comp the bill, but don't worry, you're still with us. Show up

again at 6 a.m. tomorrow and do better."

So, you have the moment. We have to enforce it, but it's about the behavior, not the person. And that's the big that's the big unlock.

What would doing it about the person look like? So it's basically you lazy

look like? So it's basically you lazy piece of [ __ ] It's basically labeling them rather than the behavior and criticizing who they are rather than what they did. And so the three things

is number one, it has to be a known rule. Number two, they have to have the

rule. Number two, they have to have the ability to follow it. And number three, choose not to. That is when a transgression occurs. Now then it comes

transgression occurs. Now then it comes into okay what are the consequences that happen? Does that mean that you just let

happen? Does that mean that you just let people transgress after you say hey don't do that and hey don't worry I still love you. Well, the consequence for crossing you needs to be consistent, which means that every time someone

crosses you, there needs to be a consequence. If there isn't, then you

consequence. If there isn't, then you teach people to gamble with you because it's a re it's a variable reinforcer.

You need to have consistent reinforcers which extinguishes the behavior. And so,

it has to be consistent. It has to be immediate and it has to be escalating.

Which means if the first time I tell you I say, "Don't worry, you're with us. Be

here tomorrow. Do better." Fine. If you

do it again, then it's like you're off for the night. If you do it again, you don't come back. And so there has to be an escalating consequence because what happens is at some moment it stops being

about punishing the behavior and it should be about punishing the pattern of behavior which then means it is the person which might be at that point I don't want to I don't want to train this person anymore. And so at that point you

person anymore. And so at that point you have to respect the standard for everyone. and out of owing it to

everyone. and out of owing it to everyone, we have to let this person go even if they're a perceived high performer.

And so, um, the flip side of it, so that's the how you earn respect is you do powers. You sacrifice for the group.

do powers. You sacrifice for the group.

You have outcomes that you demonstrate competence for. Your word is your bond.

competence for. Your word is your bond.

You do what you say you're going to do.

You enforce the standards publicly, swiftly, consistently, and escalatingly.

You show restraint when you could yell like go [ __ ] nuts on this kid for [ __ ] something up. you choose not to even though you could. And then S is that you're steady even when the the biggest Michelin star uh judge is there,

you still act the exact same way as though they were just a normal dinner table. On the flip side, it's like,

table. On the flip side, it's like, okay, how do I give respect? Because

this is equal opposite. If you're like, well, this person needs to show me respect. And I think this is important

respect. And I think this is important because if you're like, I felt disrespected. Well, one, did we did we

disrespected. Well, one, did we did we say what our preference was? And this

has been super useful for me because I sometimes will feel disrespected by somebody who who doesn't know. And so it helped me just to say, "Hey, you might not have known this. Don't do this again. We're still cool. You didn't

again. We're still cool. You didn't

know.

If you do it again, now we have a problem." Right? So I uh I just came up

problem." Right? So I uh I just came up with an acronym hearted, which is all all I could make from my memory. But

basically, honor, which is that you respect their preferences, you respect their lines, and you don't test the limits. E is esteem. So you praise them

limits. E is esteem. So you praise them when they are not present.

Attend, which is that you listen to them without cutting in or interrupting.

You are reliable in that your word is as good to them as as there's as theirs is to you. If you say, "I've got the soup,"

to you. If you say, "I've got the soup," you'll get the soup. You show them respect by saying what you said you were going to do to honor them. The next is truth. And this is where it gets a

truth. And this is where it gets a little bit more interesting. You tell

them straight, including what they will not like. And so that means that if you

not like. And so that means that if you really respect someone, you don't cuddle them, just like a parent would respect a child. I'm not going to dumb this down

child. I'm not going to dumb this down for you.

And then E, this is another hard one, is expectations. is that you hold them to

expectations. is that you hold them to the same standard and so you don't lower the bar for someone because otherwise that's just watering it down and diluting it.

Don't talk down to me.

Bring the standard down to their level of comfort.

Exactly. And so it's equal opposite. And

then finally, D is defer. Is that in their area of expertise, you defer to their decisions. And so this has been

their decisions. And so this has been really helpful for me to define this because respect is one word, but it has many behaviors underneath of it. And so

by defining it that way, it's been incredibly helpful because when I'm talking to leaders, it's like you need to earn respect and resp and you earn respect in this way. And that way I could say you have not visibly sacrificed anything for this group or

the outcomes that you've generated in no way have demonstrated competence or you said you would do this thing and then you haven't done it or uh you are allowing people to treat you in a way

that is not the way that a trader a leader would allow someone to treat them and you have not enforced anything.

Um I would say that that happens on the E happens on both sides. I would say that I have some leaders in the company for example who are overly enforcing and people absolutely comply with what they tell them to do but it's because it's

all out of fear of just get just don't cross them right but you don't know what they're what it is which just means that they look like a loose cannon.

Um on the other side you've got the people who are really competent but they're just like ah you know it's okay you know like you know happy golucky but like they don't get the respect because they never earn force anything. I can

think of two different leaders in my company right now that are on both sides of this. Both competent, but one that

of this. Both competent, but one that probably over enforces and another that basically underinforces. But until I had

basically underinforces. But until I had the words and these behaviors, I can't give them good feedback, which is why I'm so adamant about defining these terms in terms of behavior because then I can actually help someone gain

respect. And so if you were like, man, I

respect. And so if you were like, man, I [ __ ] no one respects me. It's like,

well, there's the list.

What things did you miss or what things have you not done? And that's just like this is something that I've it's obviously a huge passion of mine because defining the vague or defining the amorphous in terms that people can be

like wow I I did that operation and I now have gotten respect.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like that's very cool for me. I

read a really great essay about uh how status is accumulated and there's broadly two ways especially ancestrally dominance and prestige. Mhm.

And the interesting thing is that in times of war, tribes tend to prefer dominant leaders. Problem being that a

dominant leaders. Problem being that a time of war hopefully, if you don't lose, will last. It'll end. Then you're

stuck with this tyrannical dominant guy who's surrounded himself with sick fans.

And that's when you want someone who's prestigious. And to find someone who's

prestigious. And to find someone who's prestigious, the issue being that sometimes they're not as decisive or as cutthroat as you need in a time of crisis. And um

crisis. And um this was the issue with Churchill, right? I mean Churchill was like an

right? I mean Churchill was like an amazing wartime leader and then didn't he didn't do as well after a bit of a tyrant. Yeah. I mean he he wasn't built

tyrant. Yeah. I mean he he wasn't built as a peace time leader. Yeah. He just

that wasn't what he needed.

UK history.

Yeah. Of course, dude. Here's one about Churchill. I'm reading The Splendid and

Churchill. I'm reading The Splendid and the Vile, which is the best book about Church. You'll only go the whole book. I

Church. You'll only go the whole book. I

think it's 500 pages and it's 18 months is what it covers. And it's

all of the journals and diary entries from all of the different people. Best

thing that I learned about Churchill so far is that he really hated whistling.

He was like allergic to whistling. And

there was one day there was a boy that was walking down the street whistling.

And he ended up in this huge back and forth with this like 11-year-old kid, you know, some street urchin.

And uh Churchill, one of the biggest wars before his uh uh like campaign began was between him and this 11-year-old child. Brilliant. Absolutely

11-year-old child. Brilliant. Absolutely

brilliant. Uh, finishing this off, just talking about like probably the word of the day, risk.

You can't get rich if you never risk losing money. You can't get loved if you

losing money. You can't get loved if you never risk getting rejected. You can't

get strong if you never risk getting injured. You have to risk looking broke

injured. You have to risk looking broke to get rich. You have to risk looking weak to get strong. You have to risk looking desperate to get loved. Egos

hold back more dreams than failure and rejection ever will.

It's like risk not have not. It's like

you have to put something on the altar at the most basic level. It's like the first step is what you're willing to lose. And it's

lose. And it's it is trade of a known and inferior thing for a unknown and superior thing.

And it's the fact that it's unknown that is the thing that bugs everyone.

And I think most of gains, most of the gains in life and the the lack of gains come from

being unwilling to sacrifice mediocrity.

It's interesting to think about sacrificing mediocrity, right? But that is that I think that is

right? But that is that I think that is the that is the appropriate term. People

fear being less than extraordinary and in so doing sacrifice being extraordinary.

Mhm.

It's like you sacrifice one either way.

And so either you sacrifice being extraordinary to be ordinary or you sacrifice ordinary for the chance at being extraordinary or less than ordinary.

But if you really think about it, many people who are ordinary have failed. And

so you're really just still ordinary.

And so why would you not sacrifice ordinary for extraordinary?

[ __ ] yeah, man. I appreciate you. It's

always good to sit down with you.

Pleasure was mine as always. All right.

See you next time, everyone. Dude.

Yes. Yes.

So good.

We speak [ __ ] There we go. Sit back down. You can uh present you with two versions of a very famous photo that's going to be behind you for most of the episodes.

A Rembrandt.

Yeah.

Uh an original.

Yeah, this is an original. I'm not sure if you've noticed.

Um I'd like to thank my friends and family. Uh

family. Uh Your hair is also really short here, too. So, you look like in this one, you

too. So, you look like in this one, you look like a child with the I do.

I look like some sort of freak child with bicep veins.

I think it's like ancient chip and nails.

Yes, it is. But for some reason, For some reason, you're in Hawaiian shorts.

I didn't notice that. And then the one behind it is the uh this is the original.

All class.

It's just Yeah. All class, no breaks. I

love how they've kept me in a necklace, but this one's become like so Barack.

Yeah, we're a tasteful group.

I think we're looking at at truth.

That's true. That's correct. That's

correct. Disregard risk. Look at truth.

Yeah.

Yeah. [ __ ] yeah.

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