453. Money and Feminism with Corinne Low

I'm a feminist, B, but uh today I'm talking to Karen Low about her brilliant book Feminomics and I was listening to it on 1.5 speed

on my uh Audible app just because, you know, I need to get through a lot of books, do this podcast. And so I was listening to uh to the book and thinking, "Oh, this is interesting. This

is really interesting." And then I heard, "Is it you read it or someone else reading it?" I read the intro and then someone else reads the rest.

>> And I heard the reader refer to a hey girl psychologists and I thought oh hey girl psychologist is that something off Tik Tok or

something? I thought I've been left but

something? I thought I've been left but did I miss this earlier in the book? Did

she talk about hey girl psychologist? I

thought sounds a bit girl boss for me. I

don't like the sound of a hey girl psychologist, but maybe it's a new wave sleeping the globe and I'm the only feminist in the world who doesn't know about hey girl psychologist. So I went

to the Kindle and I searched for the section behavioral psychologists. Behavior of

behavioral psychologists. Behavior of course it wasn't a hey girl psychologist. What did I think? Hey girl

psychologist. What did I think? Hey girl

psychologist. What did I think that this credible author was writing about? Hey

girl, I'm a psychologist. I was so embarrassed, but it was so funny. The

first thing I did when I met Karen was told her. I was like, "Um, Karen, do you

told her. I was like, "Um, Karen, do you have an I'm a feminist sp?"

>> Um, I'm a feminist, but even though I'm married to a woman, I've explained to her that when it comes to driving and

lifting heavy things, I'm a lady.

Um, and I'm a feminist. Uh, but when I read about how much better it was to be in a same-sex relationship in the book, I did vaguely think about could I trade

my husband in? Could it feels like a trade up? But then I remembered he does

trade up? But then I remembered he does all the cooking. And in an in a relationship with a with a woman, I would feel, oh, this is all going to be equal. I can't ask him to do I can't

equal. I can't ask him to do I can't wouldn't be able to ask her to do anything. The same way when like a I I

anything. The same way when like a I I go to the airport and the Uber driver or the taxi driver is a man, a man, I'm like, "Yeah, you can lift my really heavy suitcase in." When it's a woman,

I'm like, "Oh, no. I'm going to have to do this myself." And obviously, I want more female taxi drivers if that's what women want to do, but just not for me.

And I feel like I feel like they should have a lifter that comes with them. And

men should have to take turns like jury duty to go in the front seat when it's a female taxi driver so they get to lift suitcase. I think that's I think men

suitcase. I think that's I think men would be very happy to do it.

>> Any men in tonight?

>> There are men in tonight. Just give us a cheer if you're a man.

[Laughter] >> Would you be happy to do a bit of jury duty suitcase lifting?

>> No. for feminism, for equality.

>> They're happy to do almost nothing for feminism. Do you know what men do for

feminism. Do you know what men do for feminism, Karine? They say, "I'm a

feminism, Karine? They say, "I'm a feminist."

feminist." >> And we go, "Oh my god, thank you.

>> The bar is so low. So, so damn low."

>> That's why I say in the book that like every man is going to say, "Of course, your career is just as important as mine, baby." And I say, ask, "If I had a

mine, baby." And I say, ask, "If I had a job offer in another city where I got a 50% pay increase, but you would have to look for new work, would we move?" Okay,

that's the real question is when push comes to shove, what happens?

>> But if they're horny, they'll say yes.

And then five years later when you have a child and a huge career break at the same time, they'll be like, "I didn't say yes." Or if I did, it's cuz I wanted

say yes." Or if I did, it's cuz I wanted to get laid. No. men in the audience like I suspect the men in the audience who've come to feminics are probably the good ones which is why there are so few

of you um >> like like this one in the front here who I just learned was Deborah's husband so >> yes >> he came up to sort of do some admin and

Karen said is this your producer and I said it is and then I explained how Tom does the cooking and all the like bill paying admin to be fair he could have a horrible online gambling problem I would

never know Um, uh, and also, you know, we I don't do much. Um, I think I'm buck that trend. I really, really do buck

that trend. I really, really do buck that trend. I do things. I do things

that trend. I do things. I do things like he wouldn't give a [ __ ] about us having curtains of any sort.

>> No, they don't. They don't.

>> Literally, they could be towels pinned to the thing. He'd be like, "Fine." He'd

be like, "Absolutely fine." And so sometimes I'm like, "This cushion, what do you think?" And he's like, "We've got cushions." And then, but our flat is

cushions." And then, but our flat is really lovely. It's a really peaceful,

really lovely. It's a really peaceful, beautiful environment cuz I've invested in that. So, it turns out women do do

in that. So, it turns out women do do more than men even when they don't do much.

[Music] Live from the Archers in London, the Spontaneity Shop presents The Guilty Feminist with me, Deborah Francis White, and my very special guest, Karen Low,

talking about money and feminism.

Thank you so very much. All right, so today we've got a very exciting book.

Now, I've devoured this book, and it actually doesn't matter whether you are currently on the apps looking for somebody, you know, that you might

actually be able to live with for, you know, a big chunk of your life, maybe have a child with, or whether you're in what this author calls the squeeze, which is the period between 30 and 40,

where your career is just taking off, but you're also breastfeeding. Um, or

whether you're like, "Fuck all of that.

I want to be the CEO." This book, unbelievably, covers all of those things. And it's all about how women can navigate

the the challenges that the world throws up that it denies it throws up. The the

challenges which we're told that's not a thing anymore. There isn't sexual

thing anymore. There isn't sexual harassment. In fact, if anything, women

harassment. In fact, if anything, women are favored in the workplace now. It's

hard for a white man to get a job. And

also, men do half the housework now.

It's you're imagining it that he doesn't. You're imagining it. You are

doesn't. You're imagining it. You are

paid just as much. There's no equality gap there at all. Everything that you wanted, you've got. If you're not happy now, I can only think that's on you.

This book was such an eyeopener and it gave me such I think an arsenal of ideas and fact studies analysis facts but also

ideas on how to combat this and just different uh paradigms for thinking about things. So, it is my great

about things. So, it is my great pleasure to introduce to you tonight feminomics, what data tells us about women's lives and how to get the most out of yours. And to welcome to the

stage the very talented, brilliant, and I've discovered backstage charming Karen Low.

Thank you everyone for being here. Thank

you.

>> Well, thank you for coming. Now, Karen,

it it talks a lot about how um you know, we women have been sold this lie that they can have it all and we're constantly being told, you know, if you you you can either have it all, you can't have it all, you you should have

it all. You you're not doing it right if

it all. You you're not doing it right if you don't have it all. I will say um like all brilliant authors, when I got backstage, I discovered she had

beautiful beachy blow blowd hair while pumping breast milk. just to be clear and uh

breast milk. just to be clear and uh also was in a gorgeous ensemble and was you know flicking through her brand new hit book and I was like in a in a museum

that's got a Versace expos exhibition on and I went seems a lot like you are having it all Karen despite what you've said >> it's a facade it's a facade

>> the other day the breast milk leaked in my work bag and now my laptop has half of the screen blacked out so yes it's much less glamorous than it looks We are all so relieved and delighted to hear

that. Sorry about your your laptop. We

that. Sorry about your your laptop. We

all we feel for you as well, but but but we do need to know this. Um cuz your hair is so good. Um Karin, before we begin to get into the meat and potatoes,

um or if you're vegan, the tofu and um tofu. Um, would you read something from

tofu. Um, would you read something from the book to give people the tone? Uh,

and to if you haven't read the book or you haven't read Karen before and you just want to know what this is about, could we have a small introduction from you?

>> Thank you. Um, so I'm going to read from a chapter called Working Like a Girl.

Um, I'm going to I'm naming names here.

Okay. My first day at McKenzie happened to fall on the day of their annual women's summit. And so I and the other

women's summit. And so I and the other female new hires were invited to join the event. They had brought in a gender

the event. They had brought in a gender empowerment speaker who mostly seemed focused on addressing the mistakes women made in the workplace. I'm not knocking McKenzie here. This speaker was highly

McKenzie here. This speaker was highly in demand at the time. She went around the room critiquing body language, urging us not to sit with our legs tucked under our bodies like little girls, and imploring us to stop phrasing

everything as a question and quit apologizing so much. As she spoke about the idea of power dressing, she singled out another new hireer, Steph, whom I had just met, but with whom I had already felt an instant connection.

Unlike so many of the other new hires who were trying desperately to fit in, Steph seemed comfortable being herself, and I found her to be a breath of fresh air. The speaker asked Steph to stand up

air. The speaker asked Steph to stand up so the whole room could inspect her. She

was dressed in a white button-down and pink khakis that looked J Crew catalog effortless. The speaker practically

effortless. The speaker practically gasped at the site. "You can't wear pink pants. No one will take you seriously,"

pants. No one will take you seriously," she admonished Steph in front of hundreds of her new colleagues. "And

your hair should be pulled back off your face." Steph, who'd previously seemed

face." Steph, who'd previously seemed unflapable to me, was clearly shocked and embarrassed. We sat in silence as

and embarrassed. We sat in silence as the speaker went on to describe the fundamentals of power of a power business wardrobe and how women could be treated the same as men if only we changed our behavior enough. We all got

the message that day and it wasn't one of empowerment. It was that we couldn't

of empowerment. It was that we couldn't bring our full selves to work. I wonder

how different that experience would have been if we'd been told, like I tell my students, that being yourself at work can be your superpower. And that if people won't take you seriously for wearing pink pants, they're the problem,

not you. Wait, you're wondering, don't

not you. Wait, you're wondering, don't women need to change? I thought the gender wage gap was because women do more non-promotable tasks, negotiate less, are more riskaverse, and aren't competitive enough. Research indeed

competitive enough. Research indeed underscores that women show differences in multiple traits compared to men in a variety of settings, and we'll get to that in a moment. But none of the literature has demonstrated that the

traits women exhibit more than men are actually bad from a profit or productivity perspective. So now I'll

productivity perspective. So now I'll flip ahead a little bit to what does the evidence say. One classic example of how

evidence say. One classic example of how men's and women's traits may differ in ways that impact the workplace is that women tend to be less competitive than men. I have no trouble believing this

men. I have no trouble believing this given the documented effects of testosterone, but for a long time there was no actual evidence linking being male to increased competition in professional settings. Two experimental

professional settings. Two experimental economists, Muriel Netherly and Lisa Veesterland changed this. Neederly and

Veesterland ran an experiment in which they asked men and women to choose how they wanted to be paid for completing a task in the lab. In economics, it's a room with computers where people, often undergrads, do experiments for pay. For

adding up a series of two-digit numbers, participants could be paid via peace rate. a set sum of each problem they did

rate. a set sum of each problem they did or a winner takes all competition.

Naturally, if you're a high performer, the potential reward from the tournament style payment is higher. But if you don't think of yourself as a top performer, you're likely to be better off getting paid for each problem you

get right. Men and women are equally

get right. Men and women are equally good at these simple math problems and thus face the same trade-offs between the compensation schemes. But men are drastically more likely to select the competitive payment scheme than are

women. This is true even for women who

women. This is true even for women who are in the top group of performance, meaning they are likely to win the competition and thus they lose out on earnings by forgoing the tournament. A

male colleague mused to me that maybe these results mean it's efficient for there to be fewer women in competitive industries like finance. But here's the important piece. Too many people are

important piece. Too many people are missing. The canonical paper is titled,

missing. The canonical paper is titled, "Do women shy away from competition? Do

men compete too much?" And the authors have told me, people always forget about that second part of their results. They

find that the majority of men in the bottom performance group also choose the competition scheme. Even when they would

competition scheme. Even when they would make way more money by simply getting paid the peace rate. In fact, among the lowest performing men who are certain to

lose, 60% choose the tournament. 60% of

the lowest performing men are like, "I've got this." Okay, I might want to give the women who were the highest performers but chose the peace rate a little pep talk. Sure. But if I'm a manager, they're not the people I need

to be concerned about. I'm much more worried about the men who, having completely flubbed the task, still thought this is going to be awesome.

Why don't we spend as much time speculating that male overcompetitiveness might be destroying corporate value as we do asking women to change and be more cutthroat? I think

about the quote by Christine Lagardi that that if it was Lehman sisters instead of Lehman Brothers perhaps there wouldn't have been so much overindexing on high-risisk mortgage securities and the financial crisis wouldn't have been

as bad. My own research shows a similar

as bad. My own research shows a similar phenomenon. We're almost there guys. Um

phenomenon. We're almost there guys. Um

in another area where women are often taken to task for not performing as well as men, negotiation. I had heard the refrain that women's poor negotiation skills were a key part of the gender wage gap so often that I assumed there

must be some evidence for it. However,

when I looked at the literature, the empirical research supporting this idea was surprisingly thin. So, I ran my own experiment with my grad student Jenny Hang. We paid study participants to come

Hang. We paid study participants to come to our lab and participate in a scenario where they negotiated with a random partner over a $20 reward. The catch was there were only two possible splits. $15

for one person and five for the other or vice versa. If a pair couldn't agree on

vice versa. If a pair couldn't agree on one of those two unequal divisions, they would both get zero. Because one's

negotiating partner was random, men and women could each be paired with the same gender or opposite. Each pair negotiated through computer interface and then individually entered their share of the split. Naturally, a variety of fierce

split. Naturally, a variety of fierce and creative bargaining ensued from ultimatums to guilt trips. In the end, we found that men and women on average did equally well when they negotiated

against one another, poking a hole in the theory that men were naturally more skilled negotiators. But overall, women

skilled negotiators. But overall, women received more money on average. Why?

While women also performed just fine negotiating against other women, when men faced other men, they were substantially more likely to fail to reach an agreement at all, leaving them

with a payoff of zero. How much more likely? 250%.

likely? 250%.

The effect was specifically driven by men who knew they were negotiating against other men. We randomly assigned whether gender was revealed to the other player or not. A man knowing he was bargaining with another man seemed to

trigger some unprotect unproductive stick measuring.

Something as basic as saying hi and trying to establish rapport with the other player was linked to higher payoffs. But we found men were less

payoffs. But we found men were less inclined to take this kind of friendly approach against other men. Instead,

they were more likely to offer ultimatums such as, "I'm taking the $15, so if you don't press $5 for yourself, you'll get nothing, and I'm not going to talk about it anymore." Unfortunately,

such ultimatums to another man were often met by one right back in return.

No, I'm taking the $15 and not talking about it anymore. And subsequently

mismatching. All those $0 payoffs added up and meant male male pairs earned 20% less than any other pair type. As long

as there was a woman at the negotiation table, cooler heads seemed to prevail.

and some kind of an agreement was reached in almost all cases. Our

experiment showed that women were not only weren't worse at negotiation than men, but also that they were better at making sure some kind of mutually beneficial deal was struck rather than being so rigid that no one ended up with

anything. In a professional setting, the

anything. In a professional setting, the cost of such negotiation breakdowns could be enormous. Imagine, for example, the cost of ending a long-term contract or partnership and possibly much larger than a failure to get slightly better

terms in an agreement. But despite this evidence, I've never once heard of corporate seminars for men instructing them on how to negotiate more like women. In situations where women do

women. In situations where women do accept less at the negotiation table, the possibility remains they're tiptoeing around other people's expectations.

So, I'll skip ahead a little bit. All

this research offers evidence that women aren't any less skilled at negotiating than men. And when they choose not to

than men. And when they choose not to negotiate, it might be a function of skillfully navigating difficult situations where they know they may not be treated equally. In fact, research by Andreas Lee Bront and John List shows

that when women are explicitly told that a salary is negotiable, they negotiate just as much as men. What holds women back from negotiating more proactively is lacking assurance that they won't be

penalized for negotiating, not the skill or the will. So, let's get out of the mindset of telling women they need to change the way they approach work, and start talking about the unique value women bring to the table, how to make

sure they're recognized for it, and what systematically needs to change for us to stop preaching that nice girls don't get the corner office, and instead start building a world where they do.

So is that insight that neither man will compromise the reason we have so many wars?

>> I would speculate yes that that yeah >> that inability if a man negotiates with a woman or two women negotiate >> they're less they're more likely to reach some kind of agreement where everyone gets something.

>> Yeah.

>> But if it's two men it's like no I I'll I'd rather have nothing than see you have anything.

>> Yeah. And it's so important to like look at the data because again, we've all been told. Who here has heard, "Oh, you

been told. Who here has heard, "Oh, you need to learn how to negotiate more like a man. You need to be tougher at the

a man. You need to be tougher at the negotiating table. Women don't ask. They

negotiating table. Women don't ask. They

don't bargain enough." And that's not actually what the data says, right? It

actually shows in my experiment that women got more because actually getting an agreement, getting a piece of a bigger pie is more important than like arguing over the scraps and maybe

getting nothing. Um, but we never say to

getting nothing. Um, but we never say to men like, "Hey, let's have a corporate seminar where you like learn from women about all these skills you need to bring to the table." We assume men are normative and that that's what we should be aspiring to.

>> I think that's really true. And I think if you advertised a course in a, you know, in a big bank in the city, men negotiate more like women. No one would come. No one would come because that

come. No one would come because that that is that is not understood. You'd

have to really show the data, but even then would they'd be like, "Oh, I don't know if I want to do that." even the way training is offered to men and women in the financial district or law. I really

noticed this because I've I've done a lot of that kind of stuff over the years. I do kind of something between a

years. I do kind of something between a stand-up shot and a TED talk for in the corporate world on various things and this is what I noticed that this is how

training is offered to women. Um,

so we've noticed you're not really confident enough. We'd like you to go on

confident enough. We'd like you to go on a confidence course. Immediately I'm

like, "Well, that's counterproductive."

You could send someone on an IT course, but as soon as you come up and go, "You know what? You need to be more

know what? You need to be more confident. You [ __ ] it. That person is

confident. You [ __ ] it. That person is immediately like, am I not confident enough?" No, we'd like you to go for to

enough?" No, we'd like you to go for to to a a hotel in Stoke on Trent with 12 other underconfident people and see if by the end of the day you can come back almost as good as a man. And do you know

how this is how men are this is how men are offered training? It's the Top Gun method. you're the best of the best,

method. you're the best of the best, we're going to make you better. And

they're like I men say to have said to me when I used to work more in that world, they're like, I know I'm being considered for senior management because they're sending me on a training course.

Whereas women would always go, they're investing in me, but women would always go something I'm it's well, it was presented to them as if it was something remedial. And so this is a a really

remedial. And so this is a a really interesting insight >> and no one has ever sent men for a humility course, right? But the data shows that might actually be really valuable. I mean, I think fairly clearly

valuable. I mean, I think fairly clearly no one's done that. I think that's absolutely obvious. Um, uh, the the the

absolutely obvious. Um, uh, the the the piece around negotiating, women negotiating was interesting because there's a possibility women are penalized for negotiating. We say women

don't negotiate often. Well, we don't say that, but often that is a >> said to us.

>> Yes. Received wisdom is women don't negotiate enough. But is it true that

negotiate enough. But is it true that sometimes if they negotiate like when they're graduates straight out of university, you meant to negotiate for your first salary, if they do, they're just slap down, get back in your box.

>> Yeah, exactly. That was that was the part I skipped because I was going on too long. But I that there was a study

too long. But I that there was a study showing that if you kind of take this lean-in approach and you take the women who don't negotiate and you force them to negotiate, they end up getting less

because they were skillfully na navigating people's expectations and they recognized negotiation wasn't going to be wellreceived. And so when they're not negotiating, they're they're responding to that expectation. And so

yes, that's something we need to we need to change. like we need to train male

to change. like we need to train male managers to be like here's how not to be, you know, taken aback if your female junior employee negotiates, but we always focus on training women. We

always focus on the problem is the woman that she's the one who isn't doing enough and never on the system that might produce those behaviors.

>> It's really really interesting. Is that

something that women here have experienced? Has anyone here experienced

experienced? Has anyone here experienced trying to negotiate and having be being looked at like you've asked for more like you're Oliver with a bowl of grl?

Um I feel like that does happen to women and then they're told well you should have negotiated straight out of uni otherwise this is why you're behind. And

it's like I think it's because men often see young men as he reminds me of myself when I was young. He's negotiating right out the bat. Give this kid what he's asking for. where it's a woman it's like

asking for. where it's a woman it's like you're lucky to be here and it's it's all unconscious. I don't think it's

all unconscious. I don't think it's necessarily well maybe it's not all unconscious for everyone but I think overall system it's systemic as you say it's like who does she think she is she

looks like a girl etc etc >> um now I want to get into the I I mean maybe we should go in terms of this audience how many of this audience are

still at the stage of thinking uh or you might never want to do this but how many of the audience are at the stage where you're thinking it would be nice to meet somebody and it's really hard to meet somebody. Oh, the hands are going up

somebody. Oh, the hands are going up very fast. Um, it would be nice to meet

very fast. Um, it would be nice to meet somebody. Okay, how many are in the

somebody. Okay, how many are in the squeeze, which is what Karine calls 30 to 40 trying to manage home and career.

Great. Okay. So, more people in the squeeze, but enough people I think that we should talk about how to What are you What if you're just swiping right

in vain going, "Oh," and then maybe you hope to meet someone in a bar, but now unfortunately they're on their phone swiping right to someone in another bar.

So, it's it's it's much more difficult to meet someone in real life, everybody tells me. But uh if you are a young

tells me. But uh if you are a young person, let's start with that because that's at the beginning of life or you might not be very young but you might just be on your second relationship or you never met the right person.

>> You might be a divorce back to swiping right like I was. So um so I think I say that we interview for the wrong position that we interview for the position of boyfriend when what we need is actually

a co-CEO of the household. And it's like what determines our happiness when we're shopping for a partner is not the same as what's going to determine our happiness later in life when we enter

into the squeeze when we've got two kids and two careers or just the two careers and we're really trying to juggle that.

Right? So I think we need to think ahead and think about what's going to contribute to my happiness, what traits in a partner are going to contribute to my happiness and support me as my life

changes because we change over time, right? And so it goes from like what

right? And so it goes from like what type of movies do you like and you know what's your favorite band? Because

that's what we're doing together. We

want to know if we have that in common.

That's how we're spending our time to like we're spending our time really differently. And now I need to know like

differently. And now I need to know like what do you like to cook for dinner?

Who's your dentist? When was the last time you put in a load of laundry? And

like where do you order your furniture?

Right? So we should ask some of those questions earlier on. Right? So, I

recommend asking like interviewing for the position of co-CEO by really finding out if you have shared values and shared expertise because in the real world we don't let people apply for jobs without

actually a CV to demonstrate their skills. So, if he has like a plain white

skills. So, if he has like a plain white box of an apartment, if he brings his dirty laundry home to his mom's house on the weekends, right? And if he only ever orders takeaway, like he's not

demonstrating the expertise for the position that you're hiring for.

What number date would you raise this?

Because I think it shouldn't be number one. I think if it's on the first date,

one. I think if it's on the first date, that might be slightly off-putting. At

what point does it go from because you talk about um what's the turn of phrase you use about it's like it's like hot brain and cold.

>> Hot state versus cold state.

>> Hot state. Cold state. Can you please deconstruct that a bit?

>> Yeah. So I talk about how irrational we can be in love, right? Because

everyone's probably familiar with behavioral economics. It's this study

behavioral economics. It's this study that shows that like the way we need to make decisions in the modern world, our brains that evolved in like life or death situations in the savannah are like ills suited for making decisions in

the modern world, right? So it's why like if you've ever found yourself like agonizing or feeling really stressed out over a small financial decision, but then you have like a really important financial decision and you're kind of

like, "Oh, whatever. I didn't invest in my 401k." And like that's actually like

my 401k." And like that's actually like way more my sorry I don't know if it's a 401k in the in the UK. We know what that means in your retirement savings account or whatever. Right? You like have a

or whatever. Right? You like have a bigger financial decision. You actually

take less care with it than like for me like spending 25 minutes figuring out what else I can add to my cart so I get free shipping so I don't get charged the 2.99. Right? That's behavioral

2.99. Right? That's behavioral

economics. That's because our brains treat everything as like a life or death decision. We have no sense of

decision. We have no sense of proportion. Okay. We never talk about it

proportion. Okay. We never talk about it for women, for the decisions that particularly affect women. And when you think about it, it's so important because in the savannah where our brains

evolved, caring was life or death. When

we're thinking about our genes surviving to the next generation, and that's what our brains evolved to do, is carry our genes forward. It's caring for our

genes forward. It's caring for our offspring, caring for our partners so they care for us, caring for our community so they share food with us during a famine, right?

But now whether or not like everybody really likes us, whether or not we're like the world's best PTA volunteer is not going to determine whether you make it through the winter. But your genes

still feel like it does, right? So

that's why it feels so devastating.

Somebody else's disappointment feels life or death because actually that was important for survival. And nobody talks about that about behavioral economics for women and how it impacts us. And so

I think about that with love. Finding a

partner to attach yourself to and pouring love into that partner was literally how your genes got fed, right?

The genes that have evolved and have been with you for millions of years, that's how they got fed, right? But

that's not how you get fed today. That's

not what's going to determine life or death. So, you actually have to take

death. So, you actually have to take yourself out of that hot state of the chemical feelings that are telling you like, "Yes, attach yourself to somebody because he's going to kill an ox for you and like that's going to make you

survive, right? You've got to kind of

survive, right? You've got to kind of tune that out because your happiness, what's important to you now, is not life or death survival, right? It is

happiness self-actualization and fulfillment. And for that, you need to

fulfillment. And for that, you need to select for other things. Not the strong, handsome man who's going to kill the ox for you, right? But someone who's actually going to do the laundry.

Somebody who's going to carry his fair share. Someone who's going to be as

share. Someone who's going to be as invested in your career. And your jeans are like a career. What the [ __ ] is that? They did not evolve with a career,

that? They did not evolve with a career, right? So someone who's going to be as

right? So someone who's going to be as invested in your career as he is invested in his own, right? So that's

where the hot state is like the chemical feelings. It's love. It's attraction.

feelings. It's love. It's attraction.

It's all of that. And I'm not saying that all of that is not fun and it's not joyful and we shouldn't like also embrace that. But like nothing kills

embrace that. But like nothing kills love and attraction faster than you not being supported at home. Okay? The

hottest man when you are putting in a load of his dirty laundry or cleaning his toothpaste off of the sink, okay, is no longer sexy. I promise you. So we

have to be able to kind of separate ourselves from that hot state that says this is what I want right this is what's appealing to me and tune into that other deeper part of us that's like actually

there's a whole arc of our lives and that's you know what I need over that is going to be different and attraction is going to fade right but you know

somebody changing the toilet roll is forever >> and on that you have this incredible

insight in the book that uh if one person and I've got to get this this uh tone of phrase right. You talk about some being in the market and that means your career outside the house in the

house you call home production. So if

you're working at home home production if you're out you're in out in the market. If you have a couple and that

market. If you have a couple and that couple is raising children, the one who's in the market more tends to do less home production than

the one who's home home production.

Yeah. Like fewer chores basically than the one that's home more or all the time.

That is true if you are any couple except a heterosexual couple where the woman is in the market. So if you are a

heterosexual couple and the man is in the market more and the woman is in home production, he she will do a lot more at home. If it's a lesbian couple,

home. If it's a lesbian couple, whichever one is at home will do the jobs at home. Gay male couple, same. But

if the woman is doing the most being the bread winner, can you talk us through the stats on this and prepare yourselves for horror?

>> It is absolutely shocking. So a female bread winner does twice as much cooking and cleaning as her lower earning male partner. And it doesn't change no matter

partner. And it doesn't change no matter how much more she earns than him. It's

completely flat. So if you go from he earns 80% of the household income, you might look at you might be like, "Yeah, that's fair. He does less of the cooking

that's fair. He does less of the cooking and the cleaning. He earns 80% of the household income." Right? But now I

household income." Right? But now I start moving it. Now he earns 60%. Same

amount. He earns 40% same amount. If he

earns 20% of the household income, he does the same amount of cooking and cleaning as the guy who earns 80%. His

role does not change at home at all because men have one gender identity. is

like, I'm going to go kill the ox. I'm

going to go, you know, earn a paycheck and that's it. I'm done. Right.

>> But what if they don't kill the ox, though?

>> Yeah. And so that's right. So then

they're just chasing the ox. And I

literally see that. I see couples in the data where she earns like and these are because people always have excuses. So

they tell me like, no, it's because men's jobs are inflexible whereas women's jobs are flexible. That's why,

right? But they say I have in my data, I can restrict it to couples who are both hourly paid. So, they both are paid just

hourly paid. So, they both are paid just a wage for however many hours they work.

Um, in the US, the modal couple who does this, it's like she's a nurse and he's like a truck driver or an Uber driver or something like that, right? When she

earns per hour four times as much as him, right? She's still doing more than

him, right? She's still doing more than double the housework, the cooking and cleaning, and he works more hours than her. So, her wage is four times higher,

her. So, her wage is four times higher, but he works more hours. So even if he's not killing the ox, he's still chasing it because men are struck are stuck in

these outdated gender roles, right? They

have not evolved and updated to this new world where like, oh, you know, it's not anymore about brute strength and killing the ox. It's typing on my keyboard. And

the ox. It's typing on my keyboard. And

actually, like my lady fingers are just as good at that as your man muscles, right? and they haven't evolved to this

right? and they haven't evolved to this new world where women can take on both of these roles, but men are still only doing one role even when they're not producing as much as her. And so that

then it creates this phenomenon that I call winning the bread and baking it too, which is what a lot of women end up doing. And that ends up breeding a lot

doing. And that ends up breeding a lot of resentment. And so I think for both

of resentment. And so I think for both men and women, actually finding new gender roles and like adapting to this new reality is going to make us happier.

It's going to create happier relationships. And there's a study that

relationships. And there's a study that you look at that says that um men have basically work not changed. So women have had a

revolution and the stats on men they've worked 40 hours a week as a trend.

Obviously this is wild. You know we're all talking about trends here. Um but

men have done the same amount of housework since the 50s and most men have worked 40 hours a week in the market. But women have changed

market. But women have changed massively. So they're now out in the

massively. So they're now out in the market and there's laborsaving devices and so there's you know but in that time since the 50s apparently not one man has

stacked one more dishwasher in the history of the world that has remained constant. If you see the graph is in the

constant. If you see the graph is in the book and it is absolutely shocking when you see it because you see women's time you see the gender revolution for women right you see women entering the market their time and market work go up and you

see because they take on these sort of labors saving you know it's the dishwasher vacuum cleaner you know washer dryers their time doing housework goes down right and then it kind of levels out because we're like we're done

with that technology revolution at home that now the stuff that we're doing a machine can't do for us right but men it's just flat so they just work the same amount of hours historically and

then they do the same amount of housework. They haven't changed at all.

housework. They haven't changed at all.

So what we feel like is a gender revolution has actually only been a gender revolution for women and we left men behind. We left them back in the

men behind. We left them back in the 1950s, right? And if we are going to

1950s, right? And if we are going to like survive like as a species literally like to be able to continue to reproduce with one another, we need that second

part of the gender revolution. We need

men to come along for the ride that we have been on, right? And to actually evolve it.

[Applause] And it doesn't it doesn't really look like it's going that way. There's so

many now manosphere conventions and terrible podcasts going um oh women need to get back into the kitchen and men need to kill more oxen. That seems to be

a terrible trend. Do you think there's something to do with the ego? We were

talking in the dressing room about how there was a seminar that I went to where they asked how many women in the was like in the financial district in London were the breadwinners and and 70% of the women stood up and we said why aren't we

talking about this and that was in one particular room and it was in a particular industry and so on and so on.

It was a it was an event for women in business and so on. So, I'm not saying it is 70%. But it was, you know, there was these were high earning women and they were like, we're all and they said, "Why aren't we talking about it more?"

And so many women spoke up and said, "If I get a bigger bonus than my husband, I have to pretend that didn't happen." And

he gets really sad. If he gets a big bonus, he wants to open champagne. We

take the kids out for dinner. But if I get a big bonus, I pretend I didn't because it's upsetting for him. or I

have to pretend that his one woman told me that her husband had a sort of hobby job and she it was costing her money.

>> Yeah.

>> Because he was investing in stuff and >> she said but he couldn't just say I look after the children. I I at dinner parties she said he can't admit that. So

I had to sit him down and say as long as it doesn't cost me money you can do whatever but I can't spend half my bonus on your job in inverted commas. And

these things we're not really talking about, which is the the ego, which is sort of not their fault because they've been trained to think kill the ox, kill the ox.

>> No. And that's right. And I think when I see that, I actually feel tremendous empathy for men, right? Because I think they're very lost. They've been sort of displaced by this gender revolution.

It's like you can liken it to when a country opens up to trade and now you find out that like China can make your iPhones cheaper and so like everybody making iPhones, you know, domestically

is now out of a job, right? And so it's is this like the economy changed to where women are equally competitive in the market, right? But men didn't get

new gender roles, new role models, new ambitions, right? literally an ambition

ambitions, right? literally an ambition to say, "Oh, you know, pulling my weight at home and being the this type of dad, that that could be an ambition, that that could be fulfillment and self-actualization."

self-actualization." So, I think that is going to be the next phase is like I, you know, I liken it to, you know, people talk about the stages of grief and I think we're in

like the denial and anger stage, right, where men are like, >> they don't want to have sex with me.

Maybe I can just control them and then they won't have a choice, right? And we

can move on from that, right, into some acceptance, right, of that things actually have changed and that there's other ways for men to be successful, that it is okay to be successful, not

by, you know, having this individual accomplishment where you're the one who's killing the ox, but by actually like supporting your wife and actually like taking care of the house and being

an amazing dad, right? So we we need to have those other possibilities for like male self-actualization and fulfillment and I think that is

a huge predictor of success of a relationship. So whether you are

relationship. So whether you are shopping for that co-CEO of the household or whether you are trying to promote your low-level junior employee at home to be the co-CEO of the

household. Um, I think really thinking

household. Um, I think really thinking about it as fulfillment and finding somebody who can view it as like this is

actually part of the integrated purpose of my life is having this complete whole life. Like we never talk about men

life. Like we never talk about men having it all, right? We never talk about that. We're just like we don't

about that. We're just like we don't have this whole big, you know, like angst about like are men going to have it all? But I think

it all? But I think >> that's because often they do like they do that that they >> they have a woman doing the rest of it for them. Right.

for them. Right.

>> Yeah. Absolut absolutely. But I see it in comedy when a woman has a baby, everyone goes, "Oh, she probably won't want to come out at night. I'm not going to offer her this gig." When men have a baby, I have seen men who all they've

done is smoke dope and do three comedy gigs a week quite poorly. Go, I've got a mouth to feed now. I've got to be on Mock the Week and Qi. They their career takes off because they start getting

really ambitious. And their reaction to

really ambitious. And their reaction to a baby is I better make some money. My

career better go somewhere now. And a

woman's reaction to a baby is is is is often decided for them by the industry which goes, I don't think she'll really want to be doing comedy in the evenings.

>> You know, how do we get around that? And

I see there that legacy of our genes, right, of saying again for our survival, when you had a baby, he had to go out and hunt, right? And she had to nurture and stay home. And that those were the

survival strategies. And what I'm going

survival strategies. And what I'm going to say is like nobody is evolutionarily adapted to work at Goldman Sachs, right?

That's not what our genes are trained for. It turns out actually both of us

for. It turns out actually both of us can do it, right? We all need to be escaping that evolutionary destiny, right? to find a new destiny which is

right? to find a new destiny which is actually integrated fulfillment. And I

have that same message to women because I think women have been given this leanin message that your career is your singular objective in life and that should be how you measure your success.

And I would say that your happiness is how you should measure your success.

Right?

>> And I would I say in the book >> one person there is applauding happiness. Everyone else is like

happiness. Everyone else is like everyone else is I want it all. One

person's going happiness. The rest are going this is London. We don't we know we're not going to be happy. We live in London. What we want is is possibilities

London. What we want is is possibilities and everything.

>> No. And I think we've been trained to substitute material goods for happiness.

That you say, "Well, if I can't sleep and be happy and have time with my family, at least I'm going to have stuff. At least I'm going to have a nice

stuff. At least I'm going to have a nice apartment and I'm going to have a nice handbag and I'm going to drive a nice car." Right? And that is the objective

car." Right? And that is the objective of capitalism. That is not your

of capitalism. That is not your objective in life. That is not your purpose in life. So I say in the book that your job, we should think of our job as a technology to turn our time

into money. It's a machine that you put

into money. It's a machine that you put time into and you get money out of. And

that's because it's your machine. You

should be asking whether it works for you, not just asking how you should work for it.

>> Can I uh engage with something around the the biological driver of the n the nurturing the baby versus the the ox the ox slayer? Um

ox slayer? Um I when I was writing my book The Guilty Feminist, what I discovered when I I

read a lot of anthropology was we we really evolved to on the savannah living in in uh packs

and actually men and women both did the same amount of work and the same amount of child raring. Of course, you're right. when you have a baby on your

right. when you have a baby on your breast, you know, you've got to do that.

However, the the gatherers would go out together and gather, and of course, there'd be give and take if someone has a baby. Um, but the gatherers would

a baby. Um, but the gatherers would gather, the hunters would hunt, and the children pretty early on would would have to go with them. And so, everybody they

think from when anthropologist records began with anthropologists studying nomadic people, everyone worked about 40 hours. and children were co-raised. So

hours. and children were co-raised. So

children would go to either parent and also were kind of raised by, you know, the the the whole I don't like using the word tribe, but the whole community would raise the children. I think that's

why we do have this drive to do more. I

think if we were programmed to just suckle babies and men were only programmed for oxlaying, I don't think it would be the same. I think it was this the beginning of agriculture

actually. Yeah. because then it was like

actually. Yeah. because then it was like once you could stay still, you weren't nomadic anymore. Well, we might as well

nomadic anymore. Well, we might as well have a shelter and well, if I'm, you know, out plowing um then you you might as well look after the babies in the house and then everything in the house

became property that including the wife and the child. That's and I so I think the invention of the plow really screwed us over. No, I mean I talk about this in

us over. No, I mean I talk about this in the book that actually it's a little bit of a myth that we had this specialization throughout history where women did domestic and men did you know

market work because actually that was like at its peak in sort of like the 1950s. It was actually like a unique

1950s. It was actually like a unique moment where there was this kind of housewife model but before that there was so much work to be done just to survive that actually everybody had to pitch in. Right. Well, I think your book

pitch in. Right. Well, I think your book debunked my bit which was agriculture meant the women had to look after the children away from the plow because you said actually

>> if you look at time use data women who were working on farms or women who were living on farms work 60-hour work weeks they are doing 60 hours of work on the farm >> and so actually it's was this blip that

what you've pointed out it was this blip in the 50s really in the middle of the 20 because very rich women obviously uh it was basically rich white women in 50s >> got fridges and dishwashers and then it

became this sort of almost economic status symbol that they could stay home while Don Draper went into the city.

Yes. Exactly.

>> Banged a lot of chicks.

>> Yeah.

>> Made up slogans for stockings. Came

back. I say bang chicks ironically. You

understand? Um and uh came that's what he would say. I wouldn't say that. He

came and then he would come back in and then she would be really miserable and on Prozac or whatever they had at the time. And that was a very short period

time. And that was a very short period and women kind of fought to get back out into the workplace. Yeah.

>> And also it was only ever rich women that could do that.

>> Right. It's a very specific like kind of model in time but we have that as and we sort of hold that up as you know this hion period right. And then the other thing and the reason we don't do that

anymore is it was a tremendously risky position for those women to be in. So we

see this movement, this like tradife movement to kind of return to those days and to say, "Oh, this was so great because women were so relaxed." Really,

they were all very depressed and alcoholics are, you know, on on Prozac as you said. Um, but

that was supported by a legal framework that actually has since changed. So in

both the UK and the US now, anybody can walk away from a marriage. And so if one person invests in public goods, the home and the children, and the other person is investing in a private good, his

career, the biggest asset formed in a marriage is the man's career, the man's human capital, right? And he gets to walk out the door with that. And so I think there's a lot of this younger generation that I fear are being

>> they don't know that. they're being set up for something really scary that the housewives of the 50s and 60s learned because then the 70s came and a lot of those women ended up divorced and

starting over at a minimum wage job in their 40s, you know, and so I always say, you know, to women that you I don't think there's anything wrong with investing in children. The book really

embraces a more holistic definition of success that if you love being a mother and you want to invest in children, you want to invest in home production, those things are tremendously important.

They're vital. They are economic production. But you have to always think

production. But you have to always think what happens if something changes because you will not be protected by the legal system. You need to be protected

legal system. You need to be protected by your own planning and your own choices. And that, you know, it could be

choices. And that, you know, it could be divorce, but it also could be like your spouse could die or become disabled, right? Like we need to have our own

right? Like we need to have our own earning power.

>> Yes. And the tra the trades that I've seen going, "Don't waste money on college. You'll only be in debt. Be in

college. You'll only be in debt. Be in

subjection to your husband. You don't

need your own form of income." I'm like, that is encouraging young women to walk into economic independ economic dependence. And that is very different

dependence. And that is very different from the co-CEOs going, do you know what? your job is paying more and I want

what? your job is paying more and I want to be with the kids and that is a very different thing from deliberately handing over the economic keys to the kingdom because then they can trap you there abusively.

>> Yes. And let me also call out the [ __ ] because the women who are selling you that image, right? Why do

they care about their follower count?

Because followers are revenue. They are

monetizing this image of financial dependence. It's like no, this is total

dependence. It's like no, this is total BS, right? They are pursuing a career

BS, right? They are pursuing a career that is telling you not to have a career. What?

career. What?

>> Yeah. It's it's really poisonous. Um you

talk about our our sort of like where we put our time and what we hire someone else to do. And you said something that

I've never thought of before, which is uh if you are if you have a job that pays enough that you could um hire somebody to help you with things that

you feel are just thrown at you because you're the woman one in the relationship and or the other one in the relationship. You mean you you you tell

relationship. You mean you you you tell a story in this about leaving your husband or breaking up with your husband and then having a relationship with a woman? How can Actually, let's just go

woman? How can Actually, let's just go down that avenue for a bit. How

different was that for you? Do you talk about that?

>> Well, I want to talk let me let me close the loop on outsourcing because I do think this is so important that like what I say is that if you're not outsourcing something, you are hiring

yourself to do it, right? And I think as women, we if I name outsourcing stuff, you're going to immediately feel like you're going to feel something. If I say like hiring a meal service or a chef

service that makes meals, hiring a cleaning service, a professional organizer, you know, um having somebody else do the shopping for you, you're immediately feel like, oh, that's like

very bougie and out of my price range and like that's, you know, maybe if I was really wealthy. But how many people here change their own oil in your car?

Does anybody change their own oil in their car in this room? You do. Good for

you. Actually, anybody can do it.

Anybody can watch a YouTube video and change their own oil, but we just don't think twice about outsourcing changing your oil, paying a mechanic, you know, 7 gutters cleared,

>> having your gutters cleared, um fixing the roof or fixing the plumbing, all things we could do if we placed zero value on men's time. Then, you know, we could send the man up to the roof and

say, "You spend six hours wrestling with the fixing the roof, right?" But we don't because we think men's time has value. But spending $70 on a mechanic to

value. But spending $70 on a mechanic to change our oil seems completely natural.

You don't think that that could be a completely modest income family that does that. But if I say pay $70 to a

does that. But if I say pay $70 to a professional organizer, you're like, "Oh, okay. Somebody's, you know, is

"Oh, okay. Somebody's, you know, is hoidy toy, right?" So, I think we need to treat women's time like it has value, right? And recognize that it comes at an

right? And recognize that it comes at an opportunity cost to us where there's actually something else we could do with that time. and what else we could do in

that time. and what else we could do in that time down the line might actually make us more money because if we were able to invest that time into our career, right, into if we're in school,

it's into law school or grad school. If

we are, you know, on the partner track, it's like getting that extra time to lean in at work, right? Those actually

might pay off for us. But as women, we don't even realize how much we've internalized the messages that we should just seamlessly be able to do this all um and magically make it happen right

ourselves because we are still measuring ourselves against that 1950s housewife even though the realities of our time and our day have changed completely.

That was something I'd never heard before, which is if it is a stereotypically male job, like clearing out the gutters in the 1950s, if Don Draper would do it rather than Betty

Draper, in our mind, it's okay to pay for it. But if it's something a woman

for it. But if it's something a woman would do in the 1950s, we think, who do I think I am? And listen, this is we're talking from a high level of privilege

here of anyone who can afford anything uh especially in this cost of living.

And you do talk about the economic morality problem of one one thing you pointed out, Kim, which I thought was really interesting is talking about women hiring cleaners. The cleaners are

referred to as workers, but they are usually also women. So there's this sort of rich white woman can have a cleaner, but who who is that cleaner? That

cleaner is a woman working for, you know, a low alley rate. So you talk about the ethics of that, the morality problem of that and the way that we can address those things to become more

moral people. And at the moment we're in

moral people. And at the moment we're in a society where if you have a the kind of job that someone might refer to as a career rather than a job, it it's not saying go and get a nanny, go and get a

cleaner. It's saying

cleaner. It's saying rethink our assumptions on your own time and how you spend your time. even within

you talk about like people saying what they do to relax that people talk about scrolling or online gambling now and can you speak a little bit about that and how you think about that about paying

yourself first thought that was fascinating >> yeah absolutely and I was just yes to everything you said and it's like women take all of this guilt on ourselves and

like I don't hear men again as you know like you know torn about saying like oh but am I just paying like a low-wage man to change my oil Right. Again, it's just it's something that we take on as women

and I think it's a discussion that we need to have as a society. I want a more equitable society for everybody. Um but

again, I I want women to kind of place value on their time. Um and so one of the ways you do that is by paying yourself first with leisure time. Okay.

So what does that mean? Um I tell this story in the book and it's the story that most people there's two stories that people always refer to of being like, "Oh my god, I couldn't believe

that." And one of them is um I meet this

that." And one of them is um I meet this couple and the wife tells me, "I'm so stressed out. Life is so hard with two

stressed out. Life is so hard with two little kids at home. I haven't gone running in four years since my son was born." And I was like, "That's

born." And I was like, "That's interesting cuz I just talked to your husband and he told me that work life balance is so important that he goes for

a swim every day for an hour because it's really good for his mental and physical health."

physical health." So that is one of the biggest inequalities in the household is inequality in leisure time, right? Is

that men get time to pursue their own interests, their physical health, to care for themselves, to be with their mates, to play a sport, right? And that

and that women don't. And so what I recommend doing is because the again the goal of your life, the objective of your life is happiness. And we make happiness

through our time. So, I want you to mark that out on your calendar and put your leisure time first and not let any like the way if it was a meeting with your boss, you wouldn't let anything else

claim that time because if we leave ourselves the time crumbles in the bottom of the cookie bag, then the biscuit bag, sorry, I'm in England.

Then, you know, we will end up just scrolling on our phone, right? But if

you actually put it first, you're going to do something meaningful with that time. You're going to do something juicy

time. You're going to do something juicy with that time. And I want us to reframe it because why is it more productive to spend an hour working so that then I can

buy something that brings me happiness versus to spend that hour directly making happiness and meaning for myself.

So the next time you are taking leisure time I want your mantra to be I am being so productive right now.

>> How do you do that when you're in the squeeze though? Because there's a lot of

squeeze though? Because there's a lot of women here going leisure time lol. um

and like when you've got children coming at you and uh emails, but how do you get how do you get the head space to do that? Is it that if you have a partner

that? Is it that if you have a partner and this might lead us back to your story?

>> Yes.

>> Um is it that you have a partner that you say this is I need to spend this hour, you need to take the the strain.

>> Yeah. You let it sort itself out the same way men often announce like, "Okay, I'm going to the gym or I'm going for a run or I'm going for a cycle." And they let it sort itself out, right? So, you

know, there's this great story that I will leave anonymous, but somebody on my publishing team told me where, you know, she said like, I used to try to get everything done at home and all my chores before I would go to the gym or go for a run and then I would run out of

time and I just wouldn't do it. But I

started paying myself first with leisure time after I read the book. And what I found is that not only if I did this after I went to the gym, then I would get everything done in less time because

I kind of had this natural deadline, but by that time my partner would be home to help me because it turned out he'd been paying himself first with leisure time the whole time, right? So yes, one of

the answers is to marry a woman, which is what I did. Um, it's a practical, relatable solution for you.

But I do think that, you know, everybody here knows that like when you have a deadline, you suddenly get the work done like an hour before the deadline. I do

think it's sometimes a if you treat it as a priority, you will sort the other things out. But we're not trained to

things out. But we're not trained to treat that as a priority. We're trained

to think of that as indulgent, right?

And I want you to think of it as sacred.

I want you to think of it as productive.

I want you to think of it as recharging and refueling yourself. and in fact the purpose of your life. And for moms here who feel that guilt of like I can't say no to my kids or I need to do this

thing. I can't put myself first. Right?

thing. I can't put myself first. Right?

You're not doing them any favors by letting yourself become an empty shell.

For me, the biggest cure for my mom guilt was that I saw once I got divorced and I moved from a 2 and 1 half hour commute to a 7-minute commute. I saw the relationship with my son blossom when I

was getting my needs met because what he needed more than anything was for me to be okay, for me to be able to be present with him. So, one, that's an incentive.

with him. So, one, that's an incentive.

And then two, if you're raising boys and you're asking, well, how do I raise this next generation to be different?

Taking care of yourself is actually it.

Because if you say I am going to fill all the gaps in this family with my own mental and physical well-being, you are modeling for them that it's okay for them to expect that of their wives in

the future. Right? If mom always comes

the future. Right? If mom always comes last, you are showing them that those regressive gender roles are

okay. Right? So you are paving the way

okay. Right? So you are paving the way for gender equality by going for a run.

Okay, now soon we're going to have a break and then after the break I'm going to throw the questions over over to you. So

during the break start thinking about those questions to round off this half.

Are there any other favorite insights that you have? Anything that you came to say tonight Karen that you haven't got to say that you think ah I I always love telling them this. I think for people

who are parents or who want to become parents, for me the the gamechanging stat that really changed the way I looked at my life was seeing in the data that moms today spend twice as much time

with our kids as mothers a generation ago because I felt like I was failing. I

felt like I was like, "Oh my gosh, why can't I do this? Why do I think this is so hard when like women have been doing this? they've been, you know, and we are

this? they've been, you know, and we are playing a different game. You know, when we talk about having it all, what it all is has actually changed. And some of that is for a really important reason

that, you know, we actually understand child development differently than they did in the 70s and ' 80s. So like in the 1980s, if your kid was at daycare, it was perfectly acceptable to have 30 kids in one room, each in their own, you

know, cot, and you kind of hand them a bottle assembly line style, right? And

now we have science telling us that no, your baby needs to be held and you have to talk to them. You have to speak 10,000 words a day and you have to sit on the floor with your toddler doing enriching activities instead of putting them in front of the television. Right?

So it's a beautiful affirmative choice to give our kids something different and it's tremendously costly in terms of our time. So to me seeing that data really

time. So to me seeing that data really gave me permission to think about how I wanted to invest my time and where I was getting the return from it. where I felt

like, yes, that is connection, that is development for my child. And where was it like guilt that I had some narrative about what it meant to be a good mom that was like, oh, the homemade baby food and the hand decorated birthday

cupcakes or whatever, right, that I needed to let go of because being a super8s career woman and being like an

Instagrammable tradife are two separate full-time jobs that do not add up in one 24-hour day, right? So knowing the data empowers you to find, you know, what do

I want to do? Where do I get the returns for my time? And I mean that at home. I

also mean that at work to say what are the tasks that actually contribute to my career advancement that help me upgrade my money machine so that I can put less time in and get more money out versus

what is the stuff that I've guilted myself into doing because I have this model of what it means to be successful.

So it's really stepping back from the whole unregulated capitalist model and saying what does my happy life look like? Would you suggest that we do? You

like? Would you suggest that we do? You

talk about there's a negotiating um tactic that you talk about. You say if anyone's done a negotiating course um it's the you you have to look at the what is it the reasons behind

>> the interests behind your positions. So

in negotiation you often go in and you say like well I want 70% or whatever right you have a position that you're you're staking out and in negotiation you're trained to say what are the

interests behind it what are you hoping to achieve by that right and so to map out your happy life I think we all need to break down our own kind of like image because a lot of times it's like well I

want my kids to grow up in this house in the suburbs with a big garden where they can play and be happy and it's this idyllic childhood and then I hear from women where they're actually my 90minute

commute is like killing my soul and by the time I get home I'm so depleted that I'm snapping at the kids and I'm angry well that's not how to give them the idyllic childhood actually right so if you dig deeper and you say what am I

trying to achieve here there might be a different way to achieve that than this sort of image of success that we have and the same thing when women say to me like well I need to make partner or I need to hit this career milestone or I

have to do this and I say why what are you trying to accomplish how is it going to make your life better, right? Is it

that you're going to get paid more money? And what do you want to buy with

money? And what do you want to buy with that money? What's important to you?

that money? What's important to you?

What security are you trying to achieve?

Or is it that this is just a marker of success that you have in your mind that means this is how I know I made it. This

is how I know that I'm good enough, right? That we need to tune out and tune

right? That we need to tune out and tune into what do I actually want and need in my life? Because we will forever be

my life? Because we will forever be unhappy if we're comparing ourselves to somebody who else has more. somebody

else will always have, you know, better dressed children, a more well-appointed house, a more accomplished career. They

will always have that, right? Because

they are maximizing their utility function. That's the e economics term

function. That's the e economics term for what you want in life, what gives you happiness, and you are maximizing yours. You cannot compare yourself to

yours. You cannot compare yourself to somebody else because only you know what you value, what brings you happiness, what brings you meaning and fulfillment.

Right? So we have to practice tuning in to ourselves so that we can actually achieve happiness rather than achieving accomplishment or success for its own

sake.

>> Karen Low everybody.

>> Thank you.

Shall we have some questions from the audience? Who would like to ask a

audience? Who would like to ask a question? There's

question? There's people there.

>> He's in charge. He has the microphone.

>> Oh, he's in charge. Okay. We we hand this decision- making over to the patriarchy apparently.

>> Um Oh, is that working?

>> It's working. Yeah.

>> Um firstly, I just want to say thank you both. Honestly, really enjoy the talk

both. Honestly, really enjoy the talk and I feel so angry. That's why I stand up.

>> Um I don't know. I feel um Karine you keep saying I think the key message from today is like women should go always chase like happiness and always like

prioritize happiness in our life but I don't know why I just can't stop thinking shouldn't we have that by default why that's not happening I

almost feel a bit sad that we it's like surely part of us feel like yes we should have that we should do that but why we're not doing it and it just and I just can't stop thinking Do you think

men they just know how to lock themselves like more than we do >> and why?

>> Sorry, >> I men are not happy. Men are [ __ ] miserable. Sorry, Karim, this question's

miserable. Sorry, Karim, this question's for you.

>> But I do think that men are trained to think of their the objective of their lives as themselves, right? That it's

like obviously I am doing me. I am

self-actualizing.

of course that's what I'm here on earth to do clearly right and I think as women we are trained to kind of take care of everybody else and have ourselves sometimes be like the last priority so

like one of the things I say to women especially if you're moms is to say like you are a member of the household so like if something's not working for you it's not working for the family like you

are actually a member of the household right and the fact that that's radical right is just shocking because like I don't think any man has ever forgotten that like he was a member of the household and his own, you know, needs

mattered.

>> I think that's true. I think that selfc centeredness is absolutely true. But I

don't think men are very good as a group. There may be happy men in the

group. There may be happy men in the world, but as a group, I think that, you know, that meme about men would rather invade Greenland than go to therapy.

I don't think men are happy, but also I do question the idea that we should have happiness by default. I think we are in a generation now where we're like it we

expect happiness and I think you know when people say I just want to be happy I'm like that's the hardest thing ever to be happy the human condition is all

about how we can't be happy even when we have everything we want we find something to be miserable at finding happiness is I think it's about being in some kind of meditative state about being content with what we have and

we're always striving for more I don't think being happy is easy I think Moments of joy and pleasure are easy, but being long-term happy, I think, is

an inc. It's a lifelong pursuit. And I

do think I'm now more worried about being finding connection, having a purpose. I think if I focus on those things, I will have a certain

amount of happiness in my life. Striving

for happiness, it's counterpart. You're

always like, where is it? Where's the

happiness? Not happy enough. I think

strive for connection and purpose and to make the world a better place. To make

the world a better place, even if it's just for the people you love, >> which in economics terms, I say in the book, it's what your utility function is. That your utility function is this

is. That your utility function is this deeper, richer, you know, a lifetime of joy and meaning and connection. And you

know, you should think about maximizing that, right? Even if it doesn't always

that, right? Even if it doesn't always feel woo happy in the moment, but you know, you're serving your values.

>> Yeah. A lot of life is just cleaning up toast crumbs to be honest.

>> Next question is at the back here on the right.

>> Yeah, >> thank you. Um,

I think definitely we need the continuation of the gender revolution, but I'm worried about the backlash against this. And it seems to be louder

against this. And it seems to be louder and more profound and coming from younger and younger men uh who are

somehow being convinced that the fact that women are now more allowed to do what we want is is bad for them. So how

do you how do we convince the men of the world that actually this might be good for them as well? and stop this crazy

misogynist awful backlash that is brewing everywhere. That's why I think

brewing everywhere. That's why I think the displaced worker analogy is really helpful, right? Because if you think

helpful, right? Because if you think about workers who've been displaced by trade coming in and now, you know, they suddenly are like, "Oh, now I have to compete with China for my jobs, right?"

They are angry, right? The first thing they do is get angry and they're like, "We got to vote out all the politicians.

We need to do Brexit." Right? And you

know, I think if we have that analogy in mind, right, that we can see that as like a natural response to a loss of privilege and control.

And we can kind of, you know, like our toddlers throwing a tantrum, right? When

we like set a limit and they are like throwing a fit and we're like, "Okay, I hear you. You really wanted the blue

hear you. You really wanted the blue cup. The blue cup isn't available right

cup. The blue cup isn't available right now. You know, do you want the red cup

now. You know, do you want the red cup or do you want the yellow cup?" Right?

So I think that we need to move channel that to a more productive place about okay that the old world is not coming back what is available and have have a little bit of that empathy right and

make space for those big feelings right but channel it into productive change and moving forward instead of backwards >> and this isn't my Q&A so I'm I'm I'm not

going to say anything else except to say I'm starting something called the road to Gilead because in my books it's convers ations. I'm talking about how

convers ations. I'm talking about how the Christian nationalist far right and this isn't really anything to do with Christianity is to do with the Christian nationalist. They are they have been

nationalist. They are they have been investing in this country to try and get that same dynamic going through all of these different means. It's very

strategic. It's on purpose and it's in chapters one and three of my book. And

I'm starting a sort of grassroots movement called the road to Gilead, which is about the move from this element to come up with ideas in our communities to fight it. If you'd like

to be involved in that, go to guiltyfeminist.com, sign up to our mailing list, and there'll be some events announced where you can get involved in community outreach and even some things you can zoom into. You know,

do as much or as little as you like. But

I do think we have to fight it very hard.

more questions.

>> Yeah, just >> I think my question is actually an extension of what what we're talking about on the last question, but it's more focused on females. So, you know, I

believe more women voted for Trump than they did Camala Harris. So, how do we encourage more women to be on this journey with us?

I will say again I will respond with kind of some some empathy right of this because we are in this moment of this kind of like seductive trodwife movement right and I think the empathy that I

will offer is to say that I do think the lean-in movement did not make space for the multiplicity of women's desires and women who said like no but I love being

a mom and that's really meaningful to me and that's not just an inconvenience on the road to my actual purpose in life, my career, right? Um, they felt

alienated by that. So, I think making space for women to show up however they show up in our movement, right? And making space for women to say like that they really

love being a mother and they don't necessarily care if that means they're going to earn less. Um, I think we have to they have to be our allies, too. So,

I will say that that's that's that's one thing. Um, and I think

thing. Um, and I think everybody romanticizes the past until you find out what the past was actually like. I don't know the laws in the UK

like. I don't know the laws in the UK here, but like in the US like women couldn't have a credit card until like the late 1970s, right? Like

>> it was the same.

>> Yeah.

>> So just, you know, this idea that like, oh, in the past, you know, we just got to relax all the time. It's like no, we had no economic or social freedom to

determine our own destinies, to chart our own course in life, to leave an abusive marriage, you know. Um, so I think that that reality of also what

that past really looks like for women, I feel like unfortunately some people are trying to find out the hard way in that's what Gilead, you know, means. Um,

and you know, I hope that we can educate people, you know, instead of needing to find out the hard way.

>> And I'm going to say again, Road to Gilead, we're trying to educate exactly this. Conjugal rape was legal to the

this. Conjugal rape was legal to the '9s. Women weren't allowed in pubs in

'9s. Women weren't allowed in pubs in this country. They weren't allowed in

this country. They weren't allowed in pubs. Like, women don't know that. And I

pubs. Like, women don't know that. And I

feel like if we if we we need to educate what it was like and what what taking away women in in leadership positions and you know we need to we need people to know and we're going to have to do a

big multi-pronged campaign because the far right are amazing at this. They've

got Andrew Tate. They've got tried wives. Now on the face of it they're

wives. Now on the face of it they're enemies. Triw wives are all about

enemies. Triw wives are all about respect me. I'm you know one man blah

respect me. I'm you know one man blah blah blah blah blah. Andrew Tate's a horrendous piece of [ __ ] But they don't fight each other. They

don't they don't take each other down.

On the left, you said a word slightly wrong. I someone was telling me about

wrong. I someone was telling me about that they told off a home at some this homeless person got told off for saying they were homeless. They were like, "No, you're unhoused." I'm like,

you're unhoused." I'm like, they've got they've been getting strategic over the last decade or so.

They've really got strategic where we've spent the last 10 years telling each other off for saying spirit animal.

We've got to get strategic and we got to get organized. Sorry, but we just have

get organized. Sorry, but we just have to because otherwise we are going to lose everything.

[Applause] >> Hi. Um, thank you. You both have a

>> Hi. Um, thank you. You both have a beautiful dynamic on stage. Um, my

question is I can't recall the exact stats, but I've heard that there's going to be a great wealth transfer which is going to benefit women. So, for the first time in history, women will be

have more economic power uh than men.

And do you have any predictions for what that could look like?

>> Karen, women, >> I don't Yeah, I don't know exactly what stat that's coming from because if you >> something to do with only the ultra high net worth and inheritance then moving

towards women, but just what do we think that that would um how will that affect like if some of the most rich people on the in the world will be women?

>> Is this start about there are going to be more female millionaires?

>> Yes, I think that's it. Yeah. Nowhere

near as many female billionaires as male billionaires, but there's going to be about the same millionaires, male and female, >> because of inheritances basically. Is

that the >> No, I think it's also because women have invested and got into they women's have made their own businesses, built their own businesses. They're amazing

own businesses. They're amazing entrepreneurs.

>> But I think if you if you if you look in the data, men still control more wealth, the vast majority of wealth. Um, and men still on average earn higher salaries

and are in more positions of power, both political power and economic power in terms of CEOs. Like the the gender gap is actually closing much less at the top of the distribution. It's closing much

more at the bottom of the distribution because women go to college more and they work in healthcare which is a growing sector. The gender gap at the

growing sector. The gender gap at the bottom of the distribution is growing but actually at the top men still control the vast majority of sort of economic power. And so I guess I would

economic power. And so I guess I would say that I think that's a little bit of a fantasy and I think we need to therefore I don't think we can um

substitute economic power and buying power for rights for political rights.

You know it cannot be that rights come via dollars that you are able to invest to buy them. So I think that thank you.

[Applause] >> Hands over here.

>> Um hi. So I loved exams growing up because I come across quite dity and exams were sort of a quantitive way of proving what I could do. And I think women often tend to do better in exams

in GCCs in university and then the exams go. And I guess my question to you is do

go. And I guess my question to you is do we try and continue on with those? And I

know there's a lot of problems with exams, but trying to carry on with those more quantitative measures of potential to go some way at addressing all the biases that women face in the workplace.

So, should we carry on with exams?

>> Yeah, I love that. I mean, because it is true. It's actually objective, right?

true. It's actually objective, right?

And you know, I think so much of the evaluation that we do is subjective and it's like, well, he really seems like he knows what he's talking about. It's

like, oh, he seems like he knows what he's talking about. Great then, right?

Let's hand over the reigns of the company to him. There's actually this startup investor Paul Graham who's this very famous startup investor who like owns Y Combinator this startup incubator

and he said I can get fooled by anyone who looks like Mark Zuckerberg right he's like every bad investment I've made it was some guy in you know the hoodie and jeans and the sneakers who looked

the look because that's what who I think looks like a good entrepreneur and it's like oh meritocracy am I right >> so absolutely I do think the more we in we introduce objective standard

standards, you know, then we we get rid of those subjective, you know, biases.

Vibes are biased. If you just feel like somebody is competent because they are, you know, giving you this, you know, strong heterosexual male energy, right, that is biased talking. And I think we

do need to tune that out. So, I I I do encourage firms to use objective metrics and hiring.

>> Vibes are biased. What a good t-shirt.

We fought really hard many, many years ago to get things changed. A lot of things changed. But in my lifetime, I

things changed. But in my lifetime, I haven't seen enough change. And I'm

worried that I'll drop off my perch before things actually do get better.

So, what can we do to help the younger women to get more angry, to get more vocal,

and to show up a bit more for those bits of change that we need before somebody takes it all off us?

[Applause] >> I mean, I think it is what said is like so many young women didn't necessarily grow up with those same restrictions.

were too far away from it, right? And

so, you know, I see that with the whole question of women working is that my generation, we saw our mothers get screwed over in divorces, right? And so,

we saw like, oh, I need to be able to protect myself. There's a paper I cite

protect myself. There's a paper I cite in the book that's called degrees are forever. Okay? You know what's forever?

forever. Okay? You know what's forever?

Degrees, not your diamonds. And so, I think we saw that, right? Um, and this younger generation that's coming up, right, they didn't see that happen. And

so they've kind of maybe invented this fantasy land where like I can, you know, have a man who's going to work and then I just get to do whatever I want and I get to go to fitness classes and the spa

all day, right? And it's like that is completely a fantasy world. And so I think it is um your generation banding together in those organizing spaces and

helping this you know up and cominging generation to see that um they have to own their own power. Nobody is going to give it to them.

>> Absolutely.

Um, you have quoted a lot of very powerful statistics about women this evening and we have also alluded to privilege this evening.

I am really interested to hear if you were addressing a room full of mothers of four living below the poverty line, would your message be the same? And if

not, what would you add?

>> Yes. such

such an important question and it was something that I did think about a lot when I was writing my book because I grew up below the poverty line and so I never took for granted that I was going

to have you know sort of any of these these things that you know I think are taken for granted in a lot of the feminist sphere and so you know when you think about like who Lean-In is written for it's very much written for like a

woman who's climbing the corporate ladder right and so one of the things I talk about in my book is that because I do a lot of work in developing countries and in western feminism we have this idea that like work is empowerment like

right that female empowerment means like being an equal in the labor force right and when I talk to women in developing countries I do work in Zambia and Kenya and India and they're like >> no freedom from work would be

empowerment like not having to do backbreaking labor and leave my children behind and actually being able to care for my children that would be a sacred privilege right so it really reframes

kind of how we think of things is that, you know, we again we we've kind of been conditioned to think of, you know, motherhood as like this inconvenience that kind of stands in the way of what

should be our real objective in life.

And so, um, I think the book makes space for like all of those different stories and all of those different needs and like families that are living paycheck to paycheck, what does it look like? And

I try not to be trit again even though I do say I suggest talking about outsourcing but I talk about it because I say look even fairly lowincome households do still pay for the oil change right that is still actually

something that they pay for and so we should think about it but you know for families that really say like look I can't solve this problem with money that's not how this problem's going to get solved I do try to offer other solutions and a lot of them actually

come down to community support how can we better rely on the resources we have within one another Um, if you can't outsource, one of my favorite games to

play is I'll clean your house. So, you

get together with a girlfriend, you go over to her house, and you clean up while you have a glass of wine and your kids play cuz playdates are child care, okay? And it's so much easier to clean

okay? And it's so much easier to clean up someone else's mess. And then she comes over to your house the next night and it's like whatever project you've been dreading and you haven't been able to get to and you're like, "Oh my god, it feels so hard to do it." when it's

somebody else's project, you have none of the angst about their mess because their mess does not make you feel like a failure. And so like you whiz through

failure. And so like you whiz through it. Um and so there are other, you know,

it. Um and so there are other, you know, solutions like that that I suggest about how to rely on our community support to get what we need and to understand that like we're not supposed to be an island and remove some of the guilt and shame

from us feeling like we can't all do it alone.

>> So I think probably we got time for two more questions. We're going to take one

more questions. We're going to take one from online. This one is from Lorna and

from online. This one is from Lorna and she wants to know how do we use data to bring men into the gender revolution. Um

there's a disparity between genders where women are creating many of their own communities of support and men are creating very few of them or not for themselves. Is there an opportunity

themselves. Is there an opportunity opportunity being missed there by feminist allies to teach change and move forward? Is it too late for adult men?

forward? Is it too late for adult men?

Will they listen to factual data or deny it? Well, feminics makes a great

it? Well, feminics makes a great Christmas present for the men in your lives. So, yes, I really I will say one

lives. So, yes, I really I will say one of the most gratifying pieces of writing this book is that I have had wonderful conversations with men who whose eyes

were really opened by some of the things that I cite in the book. And you know, I think like every time I present my data on how much more housework women do, every man in the room is somehow an

exception to my statistics. Everyone.

And I will take the positive spin on it, which is that what that tells me is that the intention is there, that they actually want to do half, right? But

they just aren't realizing how much work there is to be done. It's an iceberg, right? They see the tip of the iceberg,

right? They see the tip of the iceberg, what's beneath the surface, and we're doing all the invisible labor of the iceberg underneath. And so, I do think

iceberg underneath. And so, I do think that there are a lot of men who want to step up and want to do better. And I

hope that this book also helps empower them with some of the facts.

>> Any other questions? Question. There's

one more hand. I can't see any other hand. So I think probably Oh no, there

hand. So I think probably Oh no, there is another hand there. Maybe we can do speed questions. Speed round. Speed

speed questions. Speed round. Speed

round. Um, so I work in technology and I was wondering how you guys feel AI is going to impact women in particular, especially with things like career gaps on CV means they're taken out of the

sort of job market because of that scenario. And then also things like

scenario. And then also things like facts and fiction which are being put into the ether that are then being recalled as fact to individuals and I just wanted to understand your impact on

that or thoughts. Oh,

>> I hate it so much. I hate it so so much.

I feel like I read a post the other day from someone saying it's stripping our humanity. It's like you don't have to

humanity. It's like you don't have to grieve. We're going to make some videos

grieve. We're going to make some videos of your mom. So it's like you're talking to human beings need to grieve. You

don't need to read a story to your child. The AI will. You don't need to ma

child. The AI will. You don't need to ma make up a story for your child. The AI

will. You don't have to uh write this email, this awkward email to someone.

The No, these are things human beings need to do. That's it develops our character. It it it's part it's what

character. It it it's part it's what life is. What what do we think we're

life is. What what do we think we're doing? This is so so so dangerous. It's

doing? This is so so so dangerous. It's

programmed by programmers who themselves are haven't been to therapy and are lacking in empathy. We I I'll do anything to stop it. I hate it. I'm

aware I'm generation X and maybe if I was really young I'd be like, "Yay, a new thing." I'm not. I can't. Maybe I've

new thing." I'm not. I can't. Maybe I've

just hit the wall with new things. I

don't know. But I really do think it's evil, terrifying, violent, and it's going to ruin the world. What do you think?

>> Um, I think every time we have a really big technological shift, the first thing is that everybody is like, "Oh my god, it's amazing. It can do everything." And

it's amazing. It can do everything." And

then a lot of those companies go bankrupt and then we scale way back to the useful stuff that it can actually do. Okay. And so I think that's where we

do. Okay. And so I think that's where we are like in we're in the AI like oh my god it has so much it's going to do everything and then we're going to be like no it can do like 10% of things and actually you need human beings for

everything else right and so we're still in that phase of like figuring out where does this actually fit and you know where do human beings actually fit and so I think for women because you asked

about career breaks and I think that's so important right it is thinking about what are my durable and transferable skills skills. Okay. So, how do I invest

skills skills. Okay. So, how do I invest in durable and transferable skills? And

if you are on a career break because you are investing in your family, your family needs to be investing in you. So,

can you get a certificate while you're on that break, right? So that your skills are current even if that costs money because you are investing in the family, right? So I think just all of us

family, right? So I think just all of us need to be prepared for our jobs to evolve and saying what are the things I'm learning and one of those things

remarkably is communication.

Communication being able to work with other people, communicate with other people, make people feel something, be human is going to be a very scarce skill

in this era that we're entering into.

And I think it's something that women excel at.

And what can we take? Can we take that very final one? And we promise we'll answer in one sentence.

>> You got one more. One more.

>> Sorry. Hopefully I'll make it quick. Um

I I I know you made a joke about, you know, um getting feedback about being confident in the workplace. But I mean, how do you as a woman rather than, you

know, kind of get that feedback from men? Oh, you should be more confident.

men? Oh, you should be more confident.

You know, you have imposter syndrome.

How do you kind of how do you encourage women to be more confident in the workplace and kind of more confident in their negotiation skills? Because I

think that that's kind of crucial and really important, but I guess it's just hard to demonstrate.

Yeah. So,

I in the book distinguish between skills and traits. I think we often tell women

and traits. I think we often tell women to change their traits, to act like a man to like, oh, you're not, you know, confident enough or you ask too many questions, you're too apologetic. Change

that. And I and I try to focus on skills to say like, hey, let's strengthen your negotiation skills, right? Let's work on strengthening your communication skills.

Let's prepare for this situation. So, I

just don't want us to send the message to young women that they need to change because nothing is more confidence busting than that. And that's why I opened with that anecdote of going to my first day at the job and us all being told we needed to change. Well, of

course, that took our confidence right out of us, right? Because we were told that we didn't belong there as ourselves. And so, I think that's a very

ourselves. And so, I think that's a very damaging message that we send to young women. And as I said, some things that

women. And as I said, some things that look like under confidence could be strategic caution and could be something that's actually a really important skill to bring to the table that some men need

to bring to the table, too. So I think nurturing and developing skills but not telling women to change their traits or to try to act like men

>> and also real you know how good you are.

Don't go around telling the story. Oh, I

don't I just had a thought. I don't know if it's worth mentioning. That's a

story. Tell the story. I've got

something to say. I think this is really good. You should listen to me. It no one

good. You should listen to me. It no one else is going to override your story.

Um, but that is a learned behavior and it can be, you know, it can be useful in some situations. In other situations,

some situations. In other situations, just take it off like a coat. Um, and

don't be frightened to learn it. Um, one

thing I really quickly wanted to say is, um, re one of the questions about what can we do next. I've got some uh, guilty feminist shows coming up where I'm going to do some road to Gilead stuff. If you

go to guiltyfe.com live shows, there's a few in November. There's only Tom, I noticed only the Pleasants ones are up, but there's also one at the Museum of Comedy and there's one at the Bill.

Yeah, the they'll be up tomorrow. If you

want to come along to any of those, we'll be talking about Road to Gillad stuff. Um, and just sign up to the

stuff. Um, and just sign up to the mailing list and you'll find out about those. Uh, we do need a feminist

those. Uh, we do need a feminist uprising right now. If we don't, we I really fear we're going to get stripped of a lot of rights. Over time, it's not going to happen overnight. That's why I

call it Road to Gilead, not Gilead tomorrow, but it starts somewhere. So,

if you'd like to join that grassroots movement, we would absolutely love to have you. Um, Karen, you have been

have you. Um, Karen, you have been absolutely wonderful. I'm so excited

absolutely wonderful. I'm so excited about your book. I've learned so much from your book. I think everyone should buy it and it really does make a nice present for somebody for Christmas to if they get it signed from signed from the author. It feels so much more personal

author. It feels so much more personal than just I bought you a book and you say, "Oh, and I met the author and d and I went to this event and I thought she was great." It's it's a really nice um

was great." It's it's a really nice um thing to have a personally signed book.

do consider them for Christmas presents because also you're putting feminism under the tree or you may celebrate Hanukkah or Eid or something else. Don't

don't um don't limit yourself to Christmas. People got birthdays coming

Christmas. People got birthdays coming up and all of that sort of stuff. I

really do mean that. I think it's such a nice thing whenever I get a signed book I signed to me. I think it's really really lovely. And Karen's come all this

really lovely. And Karen's come all this way from Philadelphia. So, can we give her a big round of applause?

Um, and can we have a big round of applause for Seed Talks? Yay!

Give give Seed Talks a follow because if you've enjoyed tonight, they'll definitely have other events that you'll enjoy just as much. So that's Seed Talks. You can uh also follow Karen Low,

Talks. You can uh also follow Karen Low, PhD. Not lighting her. See confidence,

PhD. Not lighting her. See confidence,

not hiding our light on a bushel there at the Guil.

>> Exactly. Um uh g can give me a follow on dfdubs if you like or the guilty feminist. It's been absolutely wonderful

feminist. It's been absolutely wonderful to have you. This will come out as a podcast on the guilty feminist quite soon. If you'd like to listen to it,

soon. If you'd like to listen to it, you'll hear your question back if you made one. Um or your laugh if you did

made one. Um or your laugh if you did one. Um it's been a really really

one. Um it's been a really really wonderful event and I really just want to say a big round of applause again for Karen and for you

um your good selves for coming. Thank

you Sea Talks. Thank you to everyone here at this great uh venue. Uh enjoy

the book signing now and uh hopefully see you again. Thank you so much. Good

night.

>> Thank you everyone.

[Music] >> You have been listening to the guilty feminist with me Francis and my very special guest Karen Low. The recording

engineer was Grundy Limbra. The guilty

feminist theme tune was composed by Mark Hodgej. The producer was Tom Slinsky for

Hodgej. The producer was Tom Slinsky for the spontaneity shop. Thanks to Gina DC Muhammad Ned Cedric and everyone at seed talks as well as all of you for listening. For more information about

listening. For more information about this and other episodes, visit guilty feminist.com.

feminist.com.

[Music]