7 clips from 2025’s most visionary AI CEOs

And if we end up misspending a couple of hundred billion dollars, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate.

Obviously, 2025 was wild. AI rappers,

inferences, conferences. Oh my. This

week on Access, Ellis and I chat about our nerdy holidays, what Nvidia buying Grock says about the AI race, and the Consumer Electronic Show in Las Vegas.

Then we look back at some of our favorite conversations on the show with tech's most interesting founders from Mark Zuckerberg to Dylanfield and beyond. Let's do it.

beyond. Let's do it.

Ellis, happy holidays. Ho ho ho. How you

doing, my friend?

>> I'm Hanukkah Harry over here, so that's going to be a hagame. But uh thank you very much. Enjoy your Starbucks cups.

very much. Enjoy your Starbucks cups.

>> Yeah. Uh we had a great dinner at your place uh with your fam the other night.

Uh it was nice to spend some time. How's

how's the rest of your week been?

>> It's been all right. You know, it's a little dance going to and from work trying to get my brain back in action.

It is not easy being a writer. Uh when

if I literally have one drink the night before, I like can't put a sentence together. I don't know if you feel that

together. I don't know if you feel that way from all the like PR I mean all those years I went to PR drinks in New York when I was a reporter. I was like 21 and so my liver was still functioning

at peak performance. these days,

especially when all there is to do with kids over the holidays is drink. Uh

yeah, writing that first email this morning, uh took took a took a solid 15.

>> I should have brought the Ziotic over to your place. Uh had had some wine and

your place. Uh had had some wine and cherry and yeah, definitely could have used it that night.

>> I like that Ziotics is becoming one of the the motifs of the show. I have since learned that do not Z two nights in a row.

>> Oh, >> because then you get some tummy rumbles.

>> Really? But if you alternate, it's fine.

Or it just could be purely incidental.

>> This is good for me to know ahead of Vegas and CS next week, which I know we'll talk about because I was planning to chug those things every day.

>> I mean, try it. It could just also be on my end. The natural wines with their

my end. The natural wines with their like volatile acids inside them can really [ __ ] you up. So, I'm not doing my stomach any favors with those either.

>> You're just drinking weird [ __ ] >> Yes. I like it funky. So, I could feel

>> Yes. I like it funky. So, I could feel something. This is a tech show. Uh, did

something. This is a tech show. Uh, did

you do anything nerdy? Get anything

nerdy for the holidays?

>> Dude, Ziotics is tech. They're proudly

GMO, genetically modified organism.

>> That's true. But did you get any Ziotics for Christmas? I'm talking about or

for Christmas? I'm talking about or Hanukkah holidays.

>> No. Uh, what I did get, my wife Ryland knows what I like. She got me a t-shirt, a vintage t-shirt that says, "Let there be Q."

be Q." >> I love this.

>> And it is the old Motorola Q, I think.

Is it is it like running like pocket PC or something at the time?

>> I don't know. It was kind of like a BlackBerry competitor. The thing just

BlackBerry competitor. The thing just slaps. I mean, look at it. Uh, this is

slaps. I mean, look at it. Uh, this is the reason to watch the YouTube video or give it a Google with us in uh in picture and picture. It brings me back to an age where, you know, I mean,

obviously Steve Jobs gets so much credit for like ditching all the buttons, but god those buttons felt good to press.

>> Oh, they did. I love that old school Verizon logo, too. back when the carriers really had a say in how the phones looked and had so much control over phones. And this was obviously

over phones. And this was obviously before Apple came in and was like, "Screw you. You are regulated to an icon

"Screw you. You are regulated to an icon in the top uh right of the screen." I

didn't even think about that. Yeah,

there's a huge Verizon logo on the chin, as they say, of this phone. I also like that the keys are on the diagonal. I

don't know if there's an exact name for that, but uh there's some nerds who are into that. I mean, maybe it's more

into that. I mean, maybe it's more ergonomic. Do you see that?

ergonomic. Do you see that?

>> Yeah, I do. I don't know what that's called. I should. I feel like I'm losing

called. I should. I feel like I'm losing nerd points. Uh but man, yeah, bring

nerd points. Uh but man, yeah, bring back physical keyboards. Honestly, I

miss those.

>> I do, too. I do, too. Uh, did you get anything?

>> I did. Chloe got me She got me a patch of Steve's Jobs turtleneck.

Um so she actually was freaking out. I posted

on the show Instagram account a photo of a nano banana photo of Jobs with the turtleneck wearing a Christmas hat just to say we were off last week. Uh hope

everyone enjoyed their podfree week uh of Christmas week. And um turns out she'd already gotten me this and it's a literal small patch of one of his turtlenecks from a company called Mini

Museum which apparently does all kinds of interesting little knickknacks uh from history. So, that was a fun one.

from history. So, that was a fun one.

>> My first thought when I saw this was that this is kind of like the phys physical embodiment of an NFT.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know. I don't know how that makes you feel.

>> Well, in the sense that it's worthless, but >> kind of. Uh I don't know. I mean, this could this could be worth I wonder what it's worth. I mean, it's one of those

it's worth. I mean, it's one of those situations once you're married. I don't

know if you guys share a bank account, but yeah, >> maybe you uh you're checking, you know, your your Copilot uh budgeting app or whatever, and there's like a $1,500

bill for this mini museum, and you're like, "Honey, I I did want it, but not that bad."

that bad." >> No, I I joke about the NFT thing.

>> Kind of spoils some gifts, you know, when you see exactly how much they are on the bill.

>> Yeah, this was not that much. Uh,

surprisingly Jobs' turtlenecks you can get chopped up for, you know, less than you'd think. Still a very thoughtful,

you'd think. Still a very thoughtful, fun gift and one that I intend to put on a proverbial bookshelf at one point whenever I have one. Uh,

>> and did you ever watch Doug on Nickelodeon?

>> No.

>> So Doug was one of my favorite shows and he had an entire It was kind of like a breaking the fourth wall moment. He had

an entire closet just of his outfit that he wears in every episode.

And that's how I imagine Steve Jobs as closeter. Did he only wear I mean I felt

closeter. Did he only wear I mean I felt like he kind of wore the get up every day?

>> He kind of invented the tech CEO only one outfit wardrobe thing. I mean wasn't he the one who basically defined that?

>> Yeah, I think he probably did. He went

minimalist. Shingy David Shing the the notorious uh went maximalist with all his outfits. Do you remember him? He was

his outfits. Do you remember him? He was

a CES mainstay for a while. going going

back uh to a decade of CES.

>> I Yeah, I actually have a Shingy I was at a party with Shingi at the penthouse of the Cosmopolitan and I don't remember most of it. This was like almost 10 years ago.

>> Well, it's nice you got to meet him in person. He's transcended to the cloud

person. He's transcended to the cloud now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As everyone hopes to one day. Um but yeah, man. Otherwise, um

one day. Um but yeah, man. Otherwise, um

I'm really enjoying the Marty Supreme soundtrack. We saw that uh the other

soundtrack. We saw that uh the other night. Uh the movie's okay. The music is

night. Uh the movie's okay. The music is always any any Safy Brothers film, the music's always awesome, you know, Uncut Gems, good time, and then Marty. Yeah,

just great music. Movie was good. Uh

fun, but not like I don't know. I don't

know if Fate 24 is going to make everything back, but man, that that campaign that Timothy has been doing around it is has been pretty phenomenal, I will say. I I mean it is funny now

that like tech and culture are colliding more and more. Everybody in tech is like, "Holy crap, Cluey did a postmodern

da da billboard uh on the NASDAQ digital billboard in Times Square." And then you see like Timothy Shalamé doing his thing with the blimp, with all the like

celebrity collabs, with the SD Kid thing, which I guess the new the news is broken that it's not actually him, which we talked about an episode or two ago. I

mean, it just reminds you how much better entertainers and Hollywood in general are at promoting [ __ ] I mean, it was a true it was a true masterclass.

>> The original storytellers.

>> Totally. Yeah. And I mean, if you look at the color orange, that's that's Marty Supreme Orange for a while now, right? I

mean, gosh, have we seen that since Snapchat yellow? Just total ownership of

Snapchat yellow? Just total ownership of a color.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right, though.

You're right. Uh, and I I would have definitely lost that prediction market on uh on Timothy being SKD actually.

Yeah, I shouldn't I'm glad I put no money on Koshi on that.

>> Was there was there a couch for that >> there? I'm pretty sure there was

>> there? I'm pretty sure there was actually. Yeah, I think there was. I

actually. Yeah, I think there was. I

think there's a couch, >> dude. I mean, is it even settled? I

>> dude. I mean, is it even settled? I

mean, that could have been an actor playing SD Kid in the video.

>> That's true. What's reality? So, I mean, that's one of the things we forgot to ask uh TK about is just kind of like who is the quote unquote judge who makes the

call on what is a fact uh with with with you know predictive markets like that who gets to say uh that it's decided or even you know something like the election results. I mean that's pretty

election results. I mean that's pretty controversial these days about when it is called and all the TV networks are trying to you know be the first to call it and what do they see that nobody else

sees. Uh I feel like a lot of people

sees. Uh I feel like a lot of people trust that Bloomberg terminal usually uh milliseconds ahead on any given news.

But yeah, I mean I do wonder how they how they make the call on when you know when the fat lady has sung and when the the facts are decided >> when sources confirms it. That's when

>> Yeah. Exactly. Uh yeah, otherwise man, I've got about 40 Thinkboy long reads, end of year long reads on X to read. I'm

saving those for my flight back uh to the Midwest uh tomorrow. But uh

everyone's been posting their end of year reflections on AI and how the year is going to shake out in 2026. And man,

I'm just drowning in it.

>> Where uh where do you cue those up these days? I think Pocket is Gesturbin,

days? I think Pocket is Gesturbin, right? It's done. I think Instaper still

right? It's done. I think Instaper still lives. Get matter.com I believe is the

lives. Get matter.com I believe is the URL. Uh it's a great pocket alternative.

URL. Uh it's a great pocket alternative.

But honestly, I'm a pretty heavy bookmarker on X. My bookmarks are out of control. I will never ever do that.

control. I will never ever do that.

>> You just kind of cue some things up and then you know when you're in a bored moment on the toilet or on your JSX private plane chartered by yourself to

open up X. Do they work offline?

>> Not really. Uh, but X does not work well with other readal apps, so I just keep it all in the super.

>> Man, do you think anybody in the world uses Reading List, the iOS native? Uh,

maybe people can let us know in the comments if soul out there. No, I've

I've like attempted to on and off over the years, but it is it is no good, especially as the mobile web has just become the most bastardized version of itself where like trying to load things

offline. I mean, it's just it's just a

offline. I mean, it's just it's just a nightmare. I also feel like, you know,

nightmare. I also feel like, you know, 10 years after all these read it later apps kind of, you know, came out in the app store boom and everything like that, I think a lot of people have come to

realize that they don't actually look at their lists. And I think that's one of

their lists. And I think that's one of the reasons that these apps haven't done so well and that I don't know if any really are still existing at some large

scale. I mean, I feel like people just

scale. I mean, I feel like people just keep tabs open on their phone or their computer, usually never get back to them, and no harm, no foul.

>> Matter, I would say, is probably the best indie one that's still thriving and shipping product and looking good and working. But yeah, man, I I now have

working. But yeah, man, I I now have like four places where I have endless lists of things that I'll never read, but it makes me feel good to save it. It

makes me think that I'm cultured and that I, you know, see a lot, uh, even though I don't actually read it. So,

that's that's all. a matter wrapped that says, "Alex, congratulations. You uh you didn't read 89% of the things you saved this year."

this year." >> Are you a consumer app these days if you don't have an end of year wrapped? Yeah.

I mean, I would always get the pocket ones and I was always in the 0001 decile of of pocket readers. Um

>> I mean, I think wrapped is brilliant, honestly. I think one of the main

honestly. I think one of the main societal problems these days is that no one looks back toward their personal growth and progress. Uh, I think that's like one of the best things your

therapist can do is remind you of kind of >> it's like remind you of how far you've come. The things that used to be hard

come. The things that used to be hard for you that are now a little easier.

>> No.

>> And uh >> stare straight ahead, my friend. Stare

into the abyss. Don't look back.

>> Reflection is uh reflection is a waste of time. Well, I'll make a prediction uh

of time. Well, I'll make a prediction uh which is that I do think when people talk about personalization with AI in 2026 and beyond, I do think that is going to be one of the things that

really shows who has context and who doesn't and who actually makes you feel locked in like they have some type of moat and establishing how well spent

your money was with their service is reminding you of how much you used it, the different ways you used it.

Obviously, you know, the Spotify and the Apple Music One are not as differentiated as as they once were, but I think they're also going to start using all your context to deliver net

new insights to you. I mean, did you look at your chat GPT year end?

>> I was trying to pull it up literally as you were talking because I was trying to remember it gave you like that zodiac type sign thing. What was yours? Do you

remember?

>> My three big themes of 2025, building brands one name at a time. You

spent the year helping companies find their voice, systems, frameworks, and momentum. Number two, you refined

momentum. Number two, you refined meanings playbook, which is the name of my company, turning creative instinct into structure with repeatable frameworks, weekby- week deliverables,

and sharper client processes that scale your storytelling craft. And I mean, that's easy for me to forget, you know, it's like where I started two years ago.

I mean, it was just doing hourly work and just kind of winging it. Now it is become a repeatable system. And then the last one I like cameras, culture and creative fuel. You kept your curiosity

creative fuel. You kept your curiosity alive through film, photography, gaming, and cultural deep dives each feeding back into your visual sensibility. And

then it made here was the best part. It

said your year painted in pixels. And it

had a little like like lowfi hiphop girl desk. And on the desk was my Olympus

desk. And on the desk was my Olympus XA2, a Steam Deck, which I don't have, but I ask lots of questions about, a meaning mug that is in purple. I don't

know why. Uh, a Vanguard IRA form in Pixel, and a little notebook. Uh, cuz

I've also researched what notebooks to get for next year. I just thought that was that was wonderful.

>> How many M dashes, though? That's the

real question. Yo, I've been an M Dash user ever since I was like the OG Emily Dickinson uh uh soft boy back at the University of Michigan. So, uh I never notice all the M dashes cuz I use them

myself. So, religious.

myself. So, religious.

>> The fart. The fart of the mind. That's

what I call the M dash.

>> Yeah. I mean, I do have to actively stay away from it now so that it isn't, you know, saying anything that my work shouldn't be saying about how it was written.

>> Uh what was your award? Mine was most likely to scoop the robots, which I thought was pretty spot on. If 2025 gave out awards, you'd get the Brand Whisperer Award for naming more startups

than most people name pets, rewriting the internet one manifesto at a time, and somehow making it all sound cool.

And then there's like a cute little like a crystal quill, if you will, inside of a crystal ink well with a star on it. Thank you for my participation

on it. Thank you for my participation award.

>> And let me guess, your archetype was explorer. My archetype

explorer. My archetype as symbolized by a little owl pointing at a map holding a knight, the chess piece. The strategist.

piece. The strategist.

>> Oh, that was mine.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Yeah, >> there we go. Co-host for life. 3.6% of

users share this archetype.

>> My generated image was a MacBook mid draft, a cooling espresso, a stack of Substack invoices, a podcast mic, and a single pixelated GPU.

proof that the quote hustle can look aesthetic unquote. Jesus Christ.

aesthetic unquote. Jesus Christ.

>> So, it's fully adopted aesthetic as an adjective.

>> Yeah.

>> Good job, Open AI.

>> Good job.

>> That's one of my pet peeves, but I've given in.

>> Yeah. U Well, it's the time of year where there really isn't much news to speak of except there was that one big thing that squeaked through on Christmas

Eve where Nvidia is buying Grock with a Q, not Elon's Grock. They are paying 20 billion dollars but not actually buying the full company. So this is another one

of those fancy I call them reverse aqua hires where a big tech player scoops up an AI startup for a couple reasons. It's

it's antitrust scrutiny and it's also speed. They just want to get the talent

speed. They just want to get the talent in the door super fast and not be caught up in red tape for months and months.

Uh, so they basically buy the shell, the heart of the thing, leave the shell, and Nvidia is doing this for $20 billion for

this AI chip startup. Uh, and to me, I mean, there's a lot of like interesting money things here. Um, there was a pod that Jonathan Ross, the founder of Grock, did recently where he said that

at one point the company nearly ran out of cash and asked staff to trade their salaries for equity. And in hindsight, that was a very smart thing for employees to have done. Not that they

had a choice at the time, but man, people are getting paid out uh like crazy. Like 50-ish people are coming

crazy. Like 50-ish people are coming over. And this is really I what this is

over. And this is really I what this is about to me is uh is inference, which is, you know, you've got training on one side of AI and then you've got inference, which is running AI in

production. So like the urine wrapped

production. So like the urine wrapped chatbt thing that we just did, right?

That's that's inference for AI. Uh, and

that's really where the industry is going and that's what Grock specialized in. I actually uh had a conversation

in. I actually uh had a conversation with Jonathan the uh the CEO of Grock back in 2024. This is when they were a measly three-ish billion dollar startup

and his goal he told me was to take about half of the world's inference compute which has at the time was was much smaller than what it is now. I mean

these AI workloads in production at scale have just grown tremendously. So,

the market's getting huge. Nvidia was

really focused on training and I think Grock was nipping at their heels on this, you know, rapidly growing piece of the pie of of AI and they get to take it

out for 20 billion for a thing that if it keeps growing the way it's going is going to be hundreds of billions of dollars in value. So, pretty smart, savvy. Uh, you know, I love when I love

savvy. Uh, you know, I love when I love when a big tech player does a deal like this like on a holiday and doesn't put out a press release. It's just so clear.

You know, they're trying to bury it.

They don't want the uh the regulators in Washington who are who are not at work to to see it, although of course they will, but um they'll probably get away with it. And uh yeah, I'll just read. So

with it. And uh yeah, I'll just read. So

there was this quote that that Jonathan gave me back in in August 2024. We were

talking about Nvidia and their focus on training and not inference, which he was doing, uh and whether NVIDIA would move more into inference. And he told me, quote, I mean, I think they would want it, but you have to decide whether or not you're in the training business or

the inference business. The

architectures are completely different.

The economics are completely different.

They'd have to give up most of their margin, right? They expect to lose money

margin, right? They expect to lose money on training, but you have to make the money on the inference. Otherwise,

what's the point? So, the point ended up being worth, you know, about $20 billion. Good for Jonathan. And nice

billion. Good for Jonathan. And nice

move by Jensen. I guess that's the whole idea that the training I don't know is it becoming like a loss leader for some of these companies as they build apps on top of it as the training side gets a bit more commoditized

>> more that I yeah I think training is becoming more commoditized and like the gains that I mean we see this right with like GPT 5.2 and even you know the last anthropic release which was good but

like the the gains for each model release are not as uh much as they were in prior years and prior versions. So

the the progress that you can make on a training run is is collapsing.

Meanwhile, there's just so much demand to use AI in these products and it just takes like Jonathan was saying like it takes a totally new architecture which you know he helped invent with Grock. He

also co-invented the TPU at Google which is also more suited for training. So I

think this just bigger picture speaks to the AI world especially in 2026 moving more towards inference running AI in the real world. uh and I think people still

real world. uh and I think people still underestimate how much of these uh AI models are constrained by the lack of compute and a lot of that being due to

how it's architected around training and not actually running this stuff in the real world which I think Grock was all about. So more AI for everyone I guess

about. So more AI for everyone I guess >> that's got to be hard to value right as the inference is also getting cheaper every day.

>> Mhm. Which was a big thing rock was doing was pushing the cost way down.

Yeah. I mean it's it's hard to value but you look at just you know if if you are continually not able to sell as much as you would like because you don't have

the the compute uh then you're in a pretty good position to just make a move like this and Nvidia has you know tens of billions of dollars burning on their balance sheet and uh I think needs to make some moves like this but this is

definitely the biggest one of these you know reverse aqua hires you've got like I don't know if people even remember at this point like scale AI and meta was one of these where they gutted it

inflection to Microsoft character to Google. It's become this thing um that

Google. It's become this thing um that I've just been kind of fascinated by because it speaks to how fast these companies are trying to move and avoid scrutiny and get the talent which is really like what this is all about is like there's only a handful of people

that can build stuff like this and they're worth just so much because AI is so valuable. It seems like nobody's even

so valuable. It seems like nobody's even asking if whatever company is worth it anymore because it's half of it is just like a like a a thing to show your

investors press candidates that you are also uh staying ahead by making these acquisitions. Um it's definitely not as

acquisitions. Um it's definitely not as clear as it used to be with some products historically. I mean speaking

products historically. I mean speaking of 20 billion, I remember going on uh PBS NewsHour a million years ago. Uh, I

don't know why they invited me on because I wasn't really much of a business bro at the time, but I was at the Verge and they're like, "So, Facebook has sent has spent 20 billion

dollars on WhatsApp. Is it worth it?"

>> Yeah. It's like, I don't [ __ ] know.

>> I think they they were hoping that I was going to say no and just like talk about how the money is like stupid and it's not worth it and blah blah blah. And I

was like, actually, I think yeah. I

mean, basically, one of the things that they said that I think has proven to be true 10 years later is that there wasn't a whole lot of overlap between WhatsApp

users and Messenger users or iMessage users. And that's really allowed Meta in

users. And that's really allowed Meta in hindsight to really command the world's biggest messaging app, which is now beginning to expand and monetize in other ways. So, uh, yeah, I get I guess

other ways. So, uh, yeah, I get I guess I get to say, uh, told you so on that as I reported, which you reporters like to say. So, I'll take credit for that one.

say. So, I'll take credit for that one.

>> You saw Zuck's vision early. Yeah. I

mean, this is not a politics show, but yeah, should the largest like company, most important AI company in the world get to like take out the best challenger in the new market of AI, you know,

probably not great, but it's the world we live in, right? Uh, you know, you buy Trump a uh a golden statue and uh it'll all be good.

>> Well, I think it was a disc if you're talking about the gift that Tim Apple gave uh Trump. But yes, I understand your point.

>> I think it was like a I think it was like a S Swarovski crystal disc that had an apple on it or something like that.

Or or am I mistaken?

>> Yeah.

>> Um but yeah, I mean it's it's that's one of my other pet peeves is when like hindsight 2020 people say that something >> actually was an unbelievable get, you know, the opposite of not being worth

it. Uh with Instagram selling for a

it. Uh with Instagram selling for a billion dollars. I remember the day that

billion dollars. I remember the day that happened for for some reason. And that's

a day that I remember in my mind and everybody was like this is absolutely insane. But if you were actually using

insane. But if you were actually using the product and seeing how it was changing the posting behavior from Facebook, how quickly it was growing, how mobile first it was, it was

obviously happening. And that was at a

obviously happening. And that was at a time where social apps were coming and winning every like 2 to 3 years. And I

mean it really hasn't happened a whole lot since then with the exception of Tik Tok I guess. Um but uh yeah, Instagram for 1 billion. That's a crazy one. And

now I mean that's like funny money.

>> Oh yeah. That's like what you pay one researcher.

>> We are doing a solo episode today in case it wasn't already clear. Uh we

thought it would be fun to actually recap. You know we've had a lot of great

recap. You know we've had a lot of great guests on the show. We're a new show and you know as new listeners come in. We

also want to remind people of some of the interviews that we've been doing because uh to be honest like we get some pretty good guests. You know it's called Access for a Reason. Uh but before we do

that, we are going to be in Vegas next week uh at CES to do a couple interviews that will be airing uh in the feed over the coming weeks. Very excited about that. Don't want to reveal the names

that. Don't want to reveal the names quite yet, but uh great guests. Uh it's

going to shape out to be a to be a great January, I think, on the guest front. Uh

this is your first CES in a long time, right Ellis?

>> I thought I was out, but they pulled me back.

>> They dragged you back in. Yeah,

>> they dragged me back in. I mean, I always liked CES. I mean, it really the last time I was there was with the Verge. I mean, we had our own trailer

Verge. I mean, we had our own trailer with the whole Verge rap. I mean, it was just like peak. It was awesome. And I

mean, remembering like the last time I was at CES, I remember trying on the very first version of the Oculus Rift taped together. That turned out to be a

taped together. That turned out to be a thing. Yeah. Uh, we can also throw on

thing. Yeah. Uh, we can also throw on B-roll of a video of me uh doing a 360 treadmill of the Virtue Exomni and almost throwing up everywhere in

360deree projectile vomit. Uh, that did not turn out to be a thing. But I mean, honestly, I I I look back so fondly on that time because as much as I love software and as much as I've written

about software over the years, I mean, whether it's the Motorola Q or the Oculus Rift or any of these new things, the tech you can hold is is always going to be more fun, I think. And I'm not

sure to what extent CES is still that place or just a place for all the advertisers to meet up just cuz it's something to do. I mean, none of the big brands are debuting things anymore. I

don't think they're all doing their own keynotes, but I'm sure there's a whole lot of wacky stuff there.

>> There is. This might be the third year in a row that I pick up my badge, but don't go to the show floor. Uh, which is kind of a thing that I've I've liked becoming. Uh, I've liked turning into a

becoming. Uh, I've liked turning into a ritual. Uh, but yeah, no, the show floor

ritual. Uh, but yeah, no, the show floor at CS has not mattered in a really long time.

>> Do Booth Babe still exist or is that also long gone?

>> That's pretty much gone, thankfully. Um,

what has now happened is like there's this second CS, the shadow CS that happens at all the fancy hotels where I spend most of my time because I'm a a

sch smoozer uh on steroids, I guess. Um,

but yeah, it's like a bunch of uh more early late 90s, early 2000s rapper parties than you could imagine. Uh, this

year I think Snap, your former employer, is going to have Snoop Dogg. uh Yahoo is gonna have Public Enemy, which is like, yeah, it's just perfect, man. Uh it's

it's a perfect encapsulation of CS or parties like that. And uh I'll be doing a dinner actually um with with some great people um at the win one night.

I'm excited about that. And hopefully I can drag you to the poker table. I know

you're only in town in Vegas for a little bit with me, but uh got to get you playing a little cards.

>> I can cheer you on >> as a good co-host does.

Uh, okay, cool. Well, we should uh we should get into our recap here. So,

first up, we got to start with our first guest. We came out with a bang. We had

guest. We came out with a bang. We had

Zuck from Meta. This was a annual sitdown that I do with him. He's

gracious enough to do it for the new pod with us, uh, which was great. And in

hindsight, I should have known that this was going to be the clip that went the most viral. It got

most viral. It got >> How did you not know? You know,

sometimes uh you think you have the news judgment after all these years and you still have a blind spot.

>> I guess that's why it's still fun.

Sometimes you just still kind of never know if if a tweet is going to hit or not. Yeah.

not. Yeah.

>> Anyway, there's this moment where I talked to him about the AI bubble and he talks about maybe losing a few hundred billion dollars and people really latched on to this. Let's play it.

>> No one knows when super intelligence is going to be possible. Is it going to be three years? Is it going to be five

three years? Is it going to be five years? Going to be eight years?

years? Going to be eight years?

Whatever. Is it never going to happen?

But but I don't think it's never going to happen. I I I'm more ambitious or

to happen. I I I'm more ambitious or optimistic. I think it's going to be on

optimistic. I think it's going to be on the the sooner side. But

let's say let's say that you weren't sure if it was going to be three or five years. Like in a conservative business

years. Like in a conservative business situation, maybe you'd like hedge building out your infrastructure because you're worried that if you build it out assuming it's going to be three years and it takes five, then you've

lost, you know, maybe a couple hundred billion dollars or something. I mean, my view is that >> that's a lot of money.

>> Well, no. Well, I was going to say in the grand scheme of it is it is objectively a huge amount of money.

Yeah. Right.

>> I mean, didn't you just tell Trump you were going to spend like 600 billion? I

mean that's >> I did. Yeah. Through 2028, which is uh >> it's a lot of money.

>> It is. And and if and if um and if we end up misspending a couple of hundred billion dollars, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate obviously.

But what I'd say is I actually think the risk is higher on the other side.

>> So yeah, uh a sentence that not many people can actually say. Uh but uh yeah, what did you what did you make of that?

>> Well, what's he doing with it? You

think? I mean, I know a lot has gone into Llama, which is not getting the h the headlines that it once was being the open model that it was. I mean, where how would you break down that

investment? Do you think

investment? Do you think >> I think next year is the real year where they have to prove that they're going to get something out of all of this. All

those big hires he was doing this year.

They're working on a new model. It's

apparently called like avocado or something. Uh I hope that's not the

something. Uh I hope that's not the public name. I think that's the internal

public name. I think that's the internal name. And uh I think they want to be

name. And uh I think they want to be back. We like avocados here in LA, Alex.

back. We like avocados here in LA, Alex.

>> Yeah, they're fine. Um, but I think they want to be back on the frontier, at least kind of nipping at the heels of Google and open AI and anthropic and not like so far behind that they're totally out of the conversation, which they are

right now. Uh, that said, man, like a

right now. Uh, that said, man, like a lot of boomers uh use Facebook and use MEAI probably whether they know it or not. And if I had to guess, Medai is

not. And if I had to guess, Medai is still actually probably a top five, if not top three chatbot just based on the fact that it is everywhere in Instagram and Facebook.

>> Yeah. uh couple hundred billion accidental taps per month on that little purple circle that is in the search bar

in every Meta product. Now, I mean, I'm just so fascinated by like Zuck's continuing desire to invest in the future, which you have to respect and

appreciate, but it just doesn't align with even as their meta brand kind of became more agnostic of products. The

entire rest of the space, uh, as we've talked about a bit on the show, is often building for each other, making Silicon Valley faster, trying to win things back from other markets around the world,

trying to work on agents for productivity, get AI into every enterprise. And it's got to be like a

enterprise. And it's got to be like a whole lot of FOMO for Zuck during this wave to not really be able to participate in almost any of that. And I

mean, I think we saw with Horizon Worlds and some of that stuff. At least he could make the claim back when metaverses were hot that metaverse is where a lot of work is going to happen.

But I don't really see anywhere that AI is natively being used on meta properties that they aren't being used elsewhere. I think if it's the social

elsewhere. I think if it's the social side, it's kind of being used as a creativity tool the same way that it would be on any other platform, whether it is YouTube shorts or Instagram reels

or whatever. Uh I I wonder you know

or whatever. Uh I I wonder you know exactly how he's going to use that and try and somehow I mean obviously they have a million billion people with connections at enterprises around the

world. I don't know maybe is it going to

world. I don't know maybe is it going to be through Facebook for brands like the ways that they make ads easier to create automate the uh ingestion of your entire

product catalog and make good ads out of it. But then every ad is just going to

it. But then every ad is just going to kind of look like that. You know, I don't know. Maybe that's what AI is

don't know. Maybe that's what AI is going to do differently is it's not going to make them as generic, I think, as the product carousel ads, but make every ad unique. Maybe something like that. I don't know. I mean, what do you

that. I don't know. I mean, what do you feel like they're going to build with AI that is most true to who they are?

>> I think the thing they're excited about is the glasses, uh, the display glasses, which I have a pair of. And the AI stuff is, you know, if they had anthropic or Gemini in there, which I think Google's going to come out with, you know, we

also talked to Samir at Android about that on the show this year. Google's

going to come out with their II glasses uh next year 2026. But um that's the real money shot with this is like visual

AI understanding on your face. I think

uh it was pretty impressive in the demo and if they can get back on the frontier with that and hook in some of the social stuff that's going to be pretty compelling. Our next clip is with friend

compelling. Our next clip is with friend AI pendant CEO Avi Shiffman who told us a bit about why he was spending most of

his VC money on billboards around the world. Um I think they were in New York

world. Um I think they were in New York initially now they're rolling out in Europe. I saw they were in Chicago as

Europe. I saw they were in Chicago as well. But uh here's A's take on why he

well. But uh here's A's take on why he is doing that. Even though many say the product isn't quite ready yet. What I

admire about you is you have such a strong like vibes-based belief. Like

you're you're saying like you don't care about the studies, like whatever. You're

doing all this anecdotal research and you have this conviction that seems also like personally rooted in what you want, but you just seem to know like in your bones that there's a market for this.

>> I mean, I I feel like your intuition is like a thousand times higher bandwidth than like all these [ __ ] case studies and all these things, right?

like you know you you always know like the right thing like you know especially with with like you know human relationships right or all kinds of things like you always have like a strong gut feeling and like I've just

found that when you trust that it works well like I think the majority of people really need to have like a test of faith in their life where they really do a major project or whatever where they really trust their intuition and they

see success as a result of that and I think once once you see success of really believing in yourself I feel like that's something that sticks with you for the rest of your life and I think I've had quite a lot of that at least in my youth and I think that's definitely

what helps me now. Am I probably overconfident in Snow White? I don't

know. Probably. And I I don't think I'm probably doing everything correctly and I think um you know there's a very high chance that maybe it all collapses and I get to just drive off a cliff or something and you know we'll see what happens. But um I think I would rather

happens. But um I think I would rather just try and uh I I feel like there's no aspect of friend that that looks like we didn't try and um you know I uh I'm just down to go all in and and like see what

happens. like I just I don't like to

happens. like I just I don't like to hedge and I don't like to compromise in absolutely anything. And um I I I don't

absolutely anything. And um I I I don't know. I also just feel like I I try to

know. I also just feel like I I try to have I mean I have no side projects and there's nothing else I'm thinking about and I feel like I spend 99% of the time trying to think about the strategy aspect of it and you know there's not

many things that is going on internally at the company. It's just me and two other guys. Um and uh we're just

other guys. Um and uh we're just hyperfocused and it feels like the right the right path. It just like I can't it just feels so I feel like I just like give in to destiny and I have like a

religious fervor in in like my intuition and to just uh just to trust that and and see what see what happens.

>> Interesting looking back to this moment.

AI definitely came out as one of the first torchbearers for, you know, mass market AI companionship. I think there have been a lot of tweets since then pointing to the app store reviews

showing that, you know, they really don't have very many users or this or that. But I guess his big bet is just

that. But I guess his big bet is just trying to become the the Kleenex for AI companionship, which is an interesting cultural bet that in terms of marketing

theory, when people think to themselves, I think I'm ready for an AI friend, of course, I'd go to the one that I've seen on the billboards, friend.com. That's

why he paid so much for the URL. At the

same time though, I do think the product has to pay it off. And I think if there's one thing I've personally learned since then, including working on a handful of other AI companion uh

clients and trying out others in the real world, is that the context really does matter so much in starting conversations. And I think Friend in its

conversations. And I think Friend in its current iteration at least uh was listening for not a whole lot of reason uh at least in terms of the two months

that I tested it um before the billboards went live. Now I'm a little afraid to wear it cuz I don't want to get punched in the face now that everybody knows what it is. But I've

tested one, for example, that looks at your email and your calendar and other things that you share with it, and it was able to, in my view, act a lot more

like the type of friend that I want. Uh,

as a result, it was able to recommend music and movies and games to me. It was

able to make things uh based on pictures it asks for with AI. And uh I can't I can't share quite what it is just yet, but I do think that >> yeah, that feature set is going to be

more or less commoditized, which is the reason that I bring it up. AI companions

that have access to all of your context.

And I I have come to believe that that is probably going to be a far more fruitful route for personalized AI than listening to your world. Uh so I think maybe some people will be relieved by

that. Uh, all that said, it does seem

that. Uh, all that said, it does seem that on the other side, AVI really was on to something with this physical object that you could talk to. I think

we're now starting to see the Stream Ring uh, and some other products come come to market that allow you to talk to AI at any time to record notes, ask questions, get results back on your

phone. But yeah, I almost view those as

phone. But yeah, I almost view those as like two separate things. One is the friendship side that needs to deeply understand you from day one if you're going to use it. The other is just the

omnipresent AI in your life that you uh you know sick it on tasks and set up reminders and ask it to order more groceries and things like that.

>> Yeah. My thing with friend and I told Avi at the time was like it was too opinionated and not useful enough from like a productivity granola recall

perspective because it was just this you know very like opaque a thing that you could talk to and got weren't sure what you could get back. you couldn't pull up

transcripts. You couldn't like if it had

transcripts. You couldn't like if it had all that functionality and and the opinionated, you know, Avi AI persona as well. Maybe it would have done a little

well. Maybe it would have done a little better. But yeah, I mean, I've seen the

better. But yeah, I mean, I've seen the jokes that he has more billboards than users, uh, too on X. But, uh, I I I got to give it to Avi. He swung for the fences on this one. And, uh, I'm sure there will be an interesting end to that

story whether Friend and its current iteration works or not.

>> Yeah. I mean, do you believe that everybody is going to have more than one AI, like the companion AI and the useful AI? I feel like that's something that

AI? I feel like that's something that I've been I've been going back and forth on it a lot because I I do believe that in the same way that people don't want to talk to their EA the exact same as their therapist. Obviously, they have

their therapist. Obviously, they have different skill sets, but I think the human mind is kind of contextually compartmentalized in that way. And uh

then again, I mean, he he is right that I do think people are more honest with these AIs than they are with the people that they know. So his instincts, I think uh if he has time and enough

runway to pivot and make it even better, uh could be really interesting.

>> Yeah. Well, speaking of runway, hah, see what I did there? Uh let's go to our next clip. We had uh Chris, the CEO of

next clip. We had uh Chris, the CEO of Runway on the show and I enjoyed this exchange we had about Hollywood's fear of AI uh because it's only gotten worse

since this conversation. And I like what he said about this topic because the mood here in LA on AI has really I think only gotten worse and the mood just in general has gotten worse since this

conversation around Hollywood and the entertainment industry. And uh I've been

entertainment industry. And uh I've been actually referencing this exchange and some conversations since then. So, let's

go ahead and play it.

>> Ellis and I both live in LA. Um, the

mood is, I would say, I don't know how you would describe it, Ellis. It's like

not great. Uh, you know, it's kind of grim.

>> It's like a mix of not great and like highly buzzed on matcha, I would say, which is not a good combo.

>> There's a lot of like out of work writers at all time uh in Ellis's neighborhood like on a Tuesday afternoon, you know, like >> I bring the tissues and they're all gone by the time I leave. But do you think

that has something to do with AI or is something else structurally?

>> No, I don't. I think it has a lot to do with the government and the tax incentives and a lot of practical stuff that people don't talk about. But

>> yes, >> there's already this mood >> and then there is, you know, I was just having lunch with like a talent agent last week and he's like, "This is all anyone can talk about, right? Is AI.

It's going to take all our jobs.

Everyone's already feels like their jobs are being taken." I don't really see it as that two-dimensional. I'm assuming

you don't either, but yeah. I mean,

address this like topic of like is Hollywood [ __ ] or not.

Um well I think you you actually said something interesting which is like a lot of the causes for why Hollywood is like in this spot right now has to do with pe something people don't want to speak about which is like all the things

people know are structurally like not really working but they're hard to address which is like tax incentives the strikes there's like projects being done overseas there's like all the things

that are just like outside of AI it's like the you know it's like similar to the water problem with with AI you know AI I don't know if you guys have kind of tracked some of the narrative it's like people were

obsessed with like consumption of water of AI and like if you plot that against like every other like water like ind consumption of of water in other industries like golf courses consume

like 6% of the water in the US and data center is like less than 1% but like fighting golf courses feels less interesting that like being against AI you know >> I wasn't quite sure when he said it but

I looked it up after the fact and He was right. Uh, golf courses do in fact

right. Uh, golf courses do in fact consume way more water than data centers in the US. So that's been an interesting data point because you hear the water thing and the energy thing constantly.

Uh, and in fact there's many other greater energy sources and data centers.

Not to say it's not growing, but I think just an interesting example of how people latch on to these narratives to try to uh uh make themselves feel better and give themselves a villain to to

project uh the I think rightful concern that people have about the state of Hollywood. But uh just yeah, thought it

Hollywood. But uh just yeah, thought it was an interesting exchange.

>> Yeah, I also think that as always, it's a bit more nuanced than it initially seems when it comes to AI for Hollywood.

I think when people think about AI for Hollywood, it's often about replacing actors, uh, making things faster, all of that type of thing. But I think what

we've seen, at least for now, so far, is that people absolutely hate the AI aesthetic. um which I think you could

aesthetic. um which I think you could arguably claim is maybe like closest to what Marvel has been doing even without AI in terms of the blurry careless CGI

that has been a big part of their movies for the last 10 years. And if you look at the Coca-Cola ad, if you look at some of the other ads you're seeing on TV that borrow from the AI aesthetic, I think that stuff is already seeing such

a big blowback. I think probably where it's going to come in uh is with things that are deliberately trying to be kaleidoscopic and experimental. I mean,

I'm thinking of like the artist Michelle Gandry or uh even I saw a quote from James Cameron the other day saying that uh yeah, it takes eight [ __ ] years to make an Avatar movie. If I could speed

up some of these processes, that would be nice. And I do think it is probably

be nice. And I do think it is probably going to find its home inside of a lot of those workflows as opposed to what people think of today as like a movie

that looks like an AI generated movie. I

think that is in all likelihood not going to be uh what Hollywood chooses to do or what audiences like over the long term.

>> But I will tell you Ellis, we can get super intelligence next year and James Cameron will still take eight years to make the next Avatar.

>> Probably true. So, the next clip is from Eugenia Kuida, the CEO of Wabi, and what she has made, I actually don't even think it's publicly out yet, but it's

been all over X and elsewhere for the last couple months since the beta release. Basically, the ability to make

release. Basically, the ability to make fully functioning apps on your own, right from your phone. Not intended

necessarily to replace every app on your phone, but to create what they call uh the personalized software suite. Today

we live in the era of Microsoft DOS um interfaces like the uh for AI and there will be something more something very

visually um enticing something much more exciting interactive something gooey based think of it as there was Microsoft DOS and then Windows or Mac OS appeared

so there will be a different I I' I'd almost say operating system a different interface layer on top of AI that will allow people to use all software, not

just apps, but also AI models in this completely new different way.

>> Yeah. So, I think Eugenia is still right on the money with a lot of this vision.

I think the question is who is going to claim the actual software creation.

Since then, we're starting to see chat GPT both automate things that don't need a UI and also actually redraw UI for

certain software uh and services inside of the chat GPT feed. And I would bet that uh I feel like Google has already teased this as well that these companies are just going to start creating apps

for you based on what it is that they think you need. Um, while I do love her narrative that there is going to be this YouTube for software, I think even with YouTube, as much as video is

democratized, most people are still not creators. And so I think that's kind of

creators. And so I think that's kind of the question for me is as easy as it is, are people going to want to create their own software or are

most contextual AI services just going to volunteer them, you know, make them for us and say, "Hey, I thought you might want to use this." I didn't realize that this wasn't out publicly.

This is still in private beta, >> I think. So,

>> wow. Yeah, it's all over my XV feed. I

mean, obviously it's that's super niche, but uh >> I mean, I think it's a openish.

>> Yeah, I mean, people are making really cool stuff with it and sharing it and she's very good at re-sharing it and um it does seem like it's really taking off, at least in the very uh kind of

inner circle tech crowd that we we care a lot about. Um I'm very curious to see once it's in public release like full public how people adopt it. Yeah. And

what the usage is like her app store for AI apps concept I liked and I remember we were remember how we were needling her on the app store rules and Apple and how she was going to have to dance

around you know the fact that they don't like apps within apps. And then I saw after the fact that one of her adviserss is Matt Fischer who ran the app store for like almost 20 years. I was like,

"Oh, she's figured it out." So, good for you, Jenny. And yeah, even still in

you, Jenny. And yeah, even still in private beta getting a ton of traction with that. So, so good for her.

with that. So, so good for her.

>> Yeah, I can't say I've had a ton of luck myself trying to make apps for myself.

Maybe I'm just asking for the wrong things. I think a lot of this stuff is

things. I think a lot of this stuff is still to be worked out. Things like push notifications uh especially seem to be a little iffy.

Like if you want to set up an app to send you a push notification whenever uh some cool artist refreshes their merch page or something like that. I think

that's >> or my daughter poops. Um yeah. Hey, we

could probably combine that with a toilet sensor and have it all be fully automated, right? I think there's a

automated, right? I think there's a startup for that.

>> MCP that shut up. Yeah, let's do it.

>> Yeah. Um but uh it's all happening pretty fast, which which is fun to watch. Uh, I will say my home screen on

watch. Uh, I will say my home screen on my iPhone has yet to change.

>> That's a good sign.

>> As some as some metric.

>> Uh, okay. Let's go to our next one. So,

this is uh Winston from Harvey, the AI legal rapper startup. Uh, and this was our first live show, which was also really fun. Uh but I particularly liked

really fun. Uh but I particularly liked and people listeners enjoyed what uh Winston had to say about surviving as a AI rapper uh against all of the other

big AI labs.

>> Yeah. Do you worry about getting sherlocked by open AI or anthropic?

>> 100%. And I think it is the best hygiene for an application layer company to have. Like I think if you are thinking

have. Like I think if you are thinking that you are going to make some company bets that prepare you for that long term. It's going to make you maybe eat

term. It's going to make you maybe eat some short-term gains, but it will help you long term. And I I'll give you an example of this. As simple as we started our GTM strategy going to like the

largest firms and the largest enterprises. The reason why is partially

enterprises. The reason why is partially I strongly believe that if these systems get better, a lot of the lower-end legal work is going to get commoditized. So if

you build something for that, it's much easier for you know chatbasically obliterate you, right? And so even simple simple things like that like that probably slowed down our revenue growth

by a lot, right? Um but I think it's worth it because long term and there's a lot more bets that we've made that are like that. But I think you just

like that. But I think you just constantly have to have that mindset.

>> Is it a tricky balance though because I feel like you you probably talk to people at the labs all the time. I mean

you're a revenue source for them through their APIs.

>> How does that song and dance go?

>> Yeah. I mean

>> you probably get previews of new models.

Like how do you know like >> we we do but >> but then you're also like oh they may try to kill me one day.

>> Yeah. There's two there's two levels to this I think. So level one which hopefully everyone is constantly thinking about is in order to get value capture my platform has to be x amount better than whatever you can get from

them. Right? So that's number one.

them. Right? So that's number one.

Hopefully everyone is thinking that way long term. That's the easiest one. The

long term. That's the easiest one. The

the or easiest to think about. The

second one is just assume that they're just going to directly go into your vertical just no matter what. Just

assume that they're going to. How would

you defend against that and on what time scale? Right? And you can think like

scale? Right? And you can think like what are the advantages that they would have? What would they build? How would

have? What would they build? How would

they get mass distribution? Like all of these different things. And if you're thinking about that stuff long term, you might be giving up ground to some like current competitors in the like startup

space. But long term, you have like a

space. But long term, you have like a just a much bigger moat against I think what actually matters. So yeah, Winston uh is obviously and Harvey considered one of the premier successful quote

unquote rapper companies where they were very early to just incorporating models and going very niche into the legal field in this example and seem to be having a lot of early traction. But uh

yeah, no people especially I think the more entrepreneur crowd really appreciated his perspective on this.

It's nice to look back on this. Some of

this stuff that seems questionable in the moment about, you know, the value of a rapper or otherwise, uh, few months later starts to feel obvious. You know, companies building

obvious. You know, companies building for specific verticals, specific industries, specific needs, security requirements based on what sector

they're in. There's a lot of work to do

they're in. There's a lot of work to do there outside of just like helping you dig through all your documents and pull together resources into a PRD for your

new product strategy or whatever. And

so, yeah, I'm definitely a believer that that rappers are here to stay. Uh, and I think that probably goes along with this emergent belief that AI is just kind of the new fabric. It's not necessarily the

oneizefits-all and there's only going to be one winner in AI. Uh, but we're going to have a lot of different apps that make use of it. Here's another clip from one of our early interviewees, Dylan

Field, the CEO of Figma, hot on the heels of his IPO. When you're generating things and you're getting this average result, that's not what people want. Um,

I think that we're in a world where with AI, uh, you know, good enough is not enough.

Good enough is now mediocre.

So, if you really want to stand out, you have to be great. How can Figma help make you great? This is one of the quotes from Dylan uh that got shared

pretty broadly on LinkedIn at least. And

I think he's right on here. And one of the things that came up recently, a tweet from Aaron Levy, the CEO of Box, talking about how, you know, AI or

different technologies of the past don't just take jobs, but they create them and also raise the bar. He tweeted,

"Historically, this happens all the time. If you told someone about Figma or

time. If you told someone about Figma or Google Adwords in the 1970s, they'd have expected marketing jobs to plummet since we could do many different jobs inside of a single role." When in reality, the

opposite has happened. He said, "How did we experience a 5x increase in these jobs, you know, from the thousands to the millions in 50 years at the exact same time that technology made this work

far more efficient?" He says, "Actually, it's precisely because of these efficiencies. We went from advertising

efficiencies. We went from advertising being the domain only of the largest companies to something that almost any small business could participate in. Um,

I feel like this is definitely a vision that is also coming true. The idea that while some jobs that either were slow or outdated or outmoded will go away,

essentially what AI is doing is giving a lot more disciplines that people usually didn't have access to to far more people, far more companies, and also raising the bar at the same time for

what that looks like. I mean, even if you just look at the way that Facebook ads have changed over the years, or even Google ads, as so much advertising, performance advertising at least, has

gotten automated, uh, it pushes forward the the cutting edge and the state-of-the-art faster and faster because everybody's competing against each other. There's still as much

each other. There's still as much competition as ever once the tools get better. And so, that just pushes people

better. And so, that just pushes people to be better in their own right.

>> Yeah. No, I I totally agree. And uh a good sound bite from Dylan. More guests

that give good sound bites, please for 2026. That's what I'm manifesting. Uh

2026. That's what I'm manifesting. Uh

okay, I think we could end it here. Uh

this clip was, I think, a special one.

Uh, we had Rise of Martin, the founder of Hu as an early guest on the show, and she shared more of a personal story of the nerve-wracking, gut-wrenching

process of leaving a cushy job at Google to build a startup and some advice that her husband gave her, and I thought it was really nice. So, you're riding high, you've made Google, and then you decide

to leave and do a startup. Is that what happened?

>> Yes. Yes. I actually um I think it was so unbelievable to many people that they thought I was unwell. And I didn't realize it until later that that people

thought I might have not been okay, but they, you know, I'll never forget when I when I quit. Um Josh was like, "Hey," he's like, "Maybe you need a break."

He's like, "Maybe you just need a vacation. Maybe you're tired." And I was

vacation. Maybe you're tired." And I was like, "Josh, what are you talking about?" I was like, "This is the biggest

about?" I was like, "This is the biggest moment of my life. I'm like taking this thing that I worked so hard for and I am leaving it behind because I see the promise of something else outside. I was

like I've never thought clearer in my life and it was actually quite emotional for me you know because of like what I had shared earlier which was I didn't

come from uh you know particularly wealthy background like I immigrated to the states I didn't get to go to college and I found myself at Google making more

than I ever had in my life and I was just suddenly ready to walk away from it and so there was actually one night I woke up it was like at 4:00 Um, and I just burst into tears. I was just like

crying, right? And this was before I

crying, right? And this was before I quit. I was about to quit. And I was

quit. I was about to quit. And I was crying and my husband was just so startled. He was like, "Are you okay?

startled. He was like, "Are you okay?

Does something hurt? Do we have to go to the hospital?" And I was like, "I'm so

the hospital?" And I was like, "I'm so like emotional about this moment because I realized that my dream was to go start

a company." And I was like, I have never

a company." And I was like, I have never felt that the right time was now more than ever. But I also have never felt so

than ever. But I also have never felt so poor in my life. I was like, it's just so it's so crazy that I like am imagining walking away from this thing

that I I built for me and my family. And

my husband was looking at me. He's just

like, "Listen to this." He's like, "Listen." He's like, "You know they're

"Listen." He's like, "You know they're going to try to give you like money to stay, right?" But he's like, "How much

stay, right?" But he's like, "How much do you think you're worth? How much are your IDs worth?" I was like, "What?"

He's like, "What's the number?" He's

like, "How much is your ID worth?" I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Okay, is it $10 million?" I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Is it a hundred

know." He's like, "Is it a hundred million?" And I'm like, "What are you

million?" And I'm like, "What are you asking me?" I'm like balling my eyes

asking me?" I'm like balling my eyes out. You're asking me a number. And he

out. You're asking me a number. And he

like grabs me. He's like, "Listen, girl." He's like, "You are not a $10

girl." He's like, "You are not a $10 million girl. You're not even a hundred

million girl. You're not even a hundred million girl." He's like, "You're a $1

million girl." He's like, "You're a $1 billion idea girl." He's like, "You go out there, you do it." And he's like, "And I got you." And I'm like, "What?

Where did he get this?" At like 4 in the morning. But it was to me like just one

morning. But it was to me like just one of the most like impactful moments of my life where I was like here I am, you know, thinking about it this way and I live with this person who sees me in

this like totally different way. And he

was like, you go get it. He's like, you go quit your job. He's like, don't go into this afraid. And I was like, man, whoa. Yeah. Crazy.

whoa. Yeah. Crazy.

>> I think he's coming on the show next.

What a guy.

>> Yeah, man. That's just what it's all about, right? I don't I've been thinking

about, right? I don't I've been thinking a lot about that especially uh you know you started a business recently. I

started one very recently and uh the pressure you put on yourself and having people in your corner like Rise's husband saying stuff like that and you know it's the entrepreneurial journey right and I thought it was really cool

of her to share that with everyone and I got a lot of good feedback that people appreciated her vulnerability there and I hope for more convos like that next year 2026.

>> That's tech at its best, right? And I

mean, playing off that last quote about AI raising the capabilities and the bar, I do feel like while there is an insane amount of money being thrown at startup founders right now, you've got to

believe that there are a lot of other people um who aren't necessarily startup founder CEOs who are considering starting a business for the first time in internet business, an online

business, a subscription, a service, content now that it is getting so much faster to create and monetize and share and market whatever it is that you do

whether it is through Shopify whether it is through AI generated video uh whatever it is even having an AI EA or even a real EA that lives somewhere else

around the world that's empowered by AI uh I think people are getting faster and and a lot more likely to try on their own um where before maybe it would have felt insurmountable.

>> Yeah. And Rise is living proof of that.

And Hux is growing, it seems. And um I still check it every now and then. Do

you check it?

>> Not in a minute because my podcast time uh has been taken over by my one and a halfyear-old now that she can demand Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star. That kind

of coincided with with the Huck Hux launch a little while ago. Fair.

>> Um but uh yeah, I think uh I would be checking it otherwise.

>> That's a good reason.

Well, that that was our recap of uh the year. I mean, we launched a show in

year. I mean, we launched a show in September. Uh we've had a bunch of great

September. Uh we've had a bunch of great guests. Uh and I got to say, man, um

guests. Uh and I got to say, man, um it's been great doing this with you. Um

it's been cool to uh you know, we we've been friends for a long time, but to kind of reconnect through this show and have families hang out and get to talk about all this stuff, uh it's meant a

lot to me. So, thanks for being on the ride. Likewise, my friend. Uh, also big

ride. Likewise, my friend. Uh, also big thanks to our families for supporting us. Uh, we all know that podcasts take

us. Uh, we all know that podcasts take time, especially when they are with busy founders whose schedules are >> always in flux pretty much until the

night before. Uh, there's a lot of time

night before. Uh, there's a lot of time that that needs to be shuffled. So,

thanks to any for anyone out there who supported us.

>> Uh, and with that, uh, don't forget to like, subscribe, everywhere you get podcasts. We have a website now that

podcasts. We have a website now that Ellis Vibecoded over the holidays. It's

access.show.

Check that out. Give us feedback. Uh you

can find us in video at accesspod on YouTube. Definitely subscribe there. And

YouTube. Definitely subscribe there. And

if you like this episode, please leave us a fivestar review or thumbs up on your podcast player of choice. It really

helps. And share it with a friend.

That's even better.

>> You could find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com for all your storytelling needs. You can find my

storytelling needs. You can find my newsletter at sources.news on Substack.

>> Access is part of the Vox Media podcast network and the show is produced by Hooked Creators.

>> See you at CS, Alice.

>> Bye.