A conversation with Jony Ive

I'm very excited about this interview.

Uh there are few people in the valley

who need uh or in the technology

industry more broadly who need uh less

of an introduction uh than uh than than

Johnny. And it struck me as I was about

to walk on here that he barely even

needs a surname.

Um please welcome to the stage Sir

Johnny IV.

[Applause]

Okay, let's do this.

All right, so um well, thank you for

joining us. I really would love to say

that um I I am unspeakably grateful and

honored to be here. Um spending any time

with Patrick is a big deal. So, thank

you.

Well, um I want to um start sort of in

the uh in the obvious place. Um just I

mean you didn't I don't know if you got

to kind of walk the floor and

everything, but you you can see sort of

a little bit here and I you're see you

had the monitor backstage and so forth.

Um what do you think of the design?

It's lovely, isn't it? No, it's it's

very um do you know I've not been here

um I haven't been here for a long time

and um I have some very strong um and

vivid memories of being here but no the

design's lovely.

The um the first event I ever came to in

uh in San Francisco uh was uh was one

that you designed where the otter

behind. It was the uh WWDC in I have to

go back and check. I I think it was 05

maybe it was 06. Uh but um that was the

first event I came to in uh in San

Francisco and it was actually I want to

say it was here in this room at Muscone.

Uh but uh but actually um John get got

to be in here but I was relegated to the

overflow room

which was not my fault. All right. So um

well speaking of that you came to

Silicon Valley in 1992. Is that right?

That's right. Yeah. So

um you're still very young but that was

um that was uh you know a couple of

years ago. A couple of decades ago. Um

how has how is Silicon Valley? So Alan

Allen K says that um the software

industry and the computing industry is a

pop culture uh in the sense that we we

are ahistorical and we don't understand

the ideas and the antecedants and the

things that came before us and you know

that's Alan K's view I don't know if

it's right but I thought it was an

interesting idea and certainly it's the

case that if you ask people I don't know

to you know in in in many industries the

greats and the creators and so forth are

these kind of big hallowed names. But if

you ask people, you know, who invented

the internet, a lot of people in the in

the technology industry don't have a

don't have, you know, a clear sense of

of that history. I've always found that

kind of phenomenon interesting. But

since you've now got to observe Silicon

Valley for, you know, 33 years, how's it

changed?

Well, I I think when when I was at art

school, I um so I I studied design um in

England. I I I was born in London and

studied up in the

northeast and I

remember discovering the Mac um in my

final year sadly. I wish it had been

earlier.

Um, but I I came to realize something

that was I I I should have realized

earlier, but that what I realized was

that what we make stands testament to

who we are. And what we make describes

our values. It describes our

preoccupations. It discuss, you know, it

describes beautifully, succinctly, um

our

preoccupation.

And this struck me so powerfully when I

saw the Mac.

Um, and I I I got a very specific puzzle

was a kind of bicycle for the mind. That

aspect of it or something else? It was

every part. I got a very clear sense of

a group clearly of of original thinkers

with clear values completely

um I I I I think obsessed with people

and culture. You know that there was you

know you can look at something and it

can either it can tell you I was

designed um to meet a price point at a

certain time so I hit the schedule. we

can repent at our leisure and and and

it's as cheap as we hoped or you can try

and design something that

genuinely attempts to move the species

on. And I had a very clear sense of the

latter that this was created by this

renegade group in California and so

powerful. I mean, I studied industrial

design. I didn't study

technology but I was so moved by the

clear

values and the resolve and the courage

that I think enabled the the embodiment

of those values

um that I wanted to meet these people. I

wanted to come out and so after college

in '89 I first came out I had to return

this is probably way too much

information. Um you're among just a

couple of friends. Exactly. It's a this

is a a small intimate fireside chat.

Well the interesting thing was that I

had um a job commitment. I was sponsored

through college and so I had to go back

to work in design in London and there

was a

strange liberty I think that afforded

me. I was impossibly shy and I think if

I'd been traveling out to meet people

with the goal of getting a job, I I

would have I would have found that so

anxious making, I don't think I would

have dared to meet people.

Um, and so because I had no agenda, I

think also I think people were probably

happier to meet me because they didn't

think I wanted anything. Um

and so to to to dare to get close to

answering your question

um, what I saw in ' 89 92 when I finally

moved out, Apple I worked I consulted

for Apple for a couple of years and then

they persuaded me to move to San

Francisco. what to move to to Apple

here.

[Music]

Um what I saw I think was or or what I

felt was

um or a sort of an innocent euphoria I

think of of like-minded people driven by

values clearly in service of humanity

gathering together in in some small

groups in some huge groups.

But I I do believe there was a very

strong sense of purpose and that purpose

was we are here to serve the species.

And was that at Apple in '92 or in the

technology industry in '92 or in the Bay

Area in '92?

That's a great qu I I think honest

honestly Patrick it was everywhere. I

felt um and even though you know there

were competitors, even though I did feel

that there was an underlying sense of

our place

um as

servants and of principled

service and what's changed well I don't

think that's the case entirely. Um I I

think there are agendas that are about

well there are corporate agendas. I

think um and and this will sound a

little harsh, but it is um driven by

money and power. Um and I think if if

you know how you tend to get you you end

up somewhere by sort of increments

um I think if you were to starkly

contrast today with 92

um I think that would be a reasonable um

assessment. And for anybody creating

software, creating a product, creating a

company, what's the what's the center or

what's the north north star that you

perceive as you know having um you know

gotten a skew today or the thing that

people should you know hold firm to in

order to avoid some of these failure

modes. Is it what you just mentioned

having a clear sense of purpose? Is it

sort of having a kind of servant

orientation? How how would you think

what is what's at the heart of it?

I I I think there there need you know

there there need to be foundational

values and an understanding of our place

in in all of this and and um having a

clear sense of the goal which is to

enable and

inspire people. I mean, you know

Patrick and I were talking um just a

while ago about being tool makers, and

I'm very clear and very proud that

that's my occupation and that's my

practice.

Um I I love trying to move things

forward, which means

innovating.

Um I I have a real issue with I think

people confuse innovation with being

different or breaking stuff. Um, I have

no interest in breaking stuff for the

sake of breaking stuff. Um, I I don't

think breaking stuff and and moving on

quickly um leaves us well, it leaves us

surrounded by carnage. Um, I I'm

interested if things get broken as a

consequence of actually creating

something better. Um but

I I I think one of the things that is I

think it's part of the human condition

is that

we assume that progress and innovation

is sort of inevitable and you know that

it's not you know that you have to have

you know this underlying conviction

which is fuel and then we need an idea

and a vision and then the resolve to

make that vision something that is real

that is not just for us but that we can

share broadly. Um you once used a phrase

with me uh sincerely elevate the

species.

Yeah, I I I think

that you know that I I remember many

times and and fortunately I'm not

talking in in the past tense, but I do

remember particular Sunday afternoons

working

um actually I remember working on some

absurd details with with in terms of

packaging and

um and in such a tr I mean this this

compared to what um you guys do this

will seem so trivial but I had such a

clear awareness that in designing a

certain solution for for example how we

managed a cable that's in a box that

designing that I knew that millions of

people would engage with this little tab

and I can either make the cable an easy

thing to

unwrap sorry That is such a trivial

example, isn't it? But but but but

clearly you think that um I mean you you

can describe the purpose of that in you

know seconds saved you know that shaves

5 seconds off the unwrapping of every

cable and multiply it across hundreds of

millions you know but but I get the

sense from you that's not why you do it.

It's not it's not this trivial

utilitarian you know m multiplication

and calculation. There's something

spiritual in it for you. What's the

spiritual thing? I I think the spiritual

thing is that um I believe that when

somebody unwrapped that box and took out

that cable and they thought somebody

gave a about me, I think that's a

spiritual thing. And I think it's a

way and I know I'm in good company here.

I know that when you you know what used

to depress me was this sense that

solving a functional imperative then

we're done. But of course that's not

enough. That's that's not that's not the

characteristic of an evolved society of

an evolved species. And so that Sunday

afternoon when I really should have been

out with my

boys and I'm worrying about this this I

I did feel a connection and an

excitement that somebody was going to

experience something that they don't

even know exists yet. And even though it

was a small thing, um it would really

did come genuinely from a place of love

and of care. Um, and Steve spoke about

this. I mean, he spoke about it way more

eloquently than I can, but he talked

about when you make

something with love and with care. Even

though the people that you've made it

for, you don't know their

story. They don't know your story.

You'll never even shake their hands. But

when they use the product that you've

made, it it's a way and the way Steve

expressed it I thought was so beautiful.

He said it's a way of expressing our

gratitude to the species. And I thought

that was such an an

incredibly thoughtful and beautiful and

authentic declaration.

So when people talk about your design or

design that occurred in your time at

Apple, um they often refer to

minimalism

simplicity, the clarity and function

you know, things like this and that's

all certainly true. Um, but part of

what's very striking to me is how much

of it uh seems to um seems to have some

kind of

um sense of humor or joy woven into it.

Like there's the um the iMac like the

Pixar lamp. Um there's the the lozenge

iMacs in their uh technicolor. Um there

were there were even iPod socks.

What's the role of joy in design?

Well, I I I think

if that's such a good question because I

think one of the mistakes that people

make is that they think simple products

um you know simplicity is about removing

clutter and to me that means you just

would end up with an uncluttered product

um but a kind of desiccated soulless

product. actually as that's a beautiful

description a desiccated soulless

product. I

think that's what a lot of minimalism

ends up being um or modernism ends up

manifesting as.

I my goal and our goal collectively has

been to bring order to chaos, to try and

in but simplicity to me is trying to

um succinctly express the essence of

something and its purpose and its role

in our life.

Um I actually think that

um something that I'm I I feel conscious

of is that

um I think generally in in the valley

and generally in our shared you know in

our industry I think joy and humor has

been missing.

Um, and that's something that I I I that

that sort of weighed on me a bit. And

um

and I um, you know, the the products

that we we you know, we're all

developing, they're complicated, aren't

they? Um, and sometimes joy gets

confused with being trivial. Um but but

I think I always go back I don't know

about you but I always go back to being

very clear that the my state of mind and

how I am in my practice ultimately is

going to be embodied in the work. And so

if I'm if I'm consumed with

anxiety that's how the work will end up.

And so, um, I I think to be hopeful and

optimistic and joyful in our practice

and and be that way in how we relate to

each other and our colleagues. I

actually think that's how the products

will will end up.

There's a um there's a uh there's a

wonderful talk um by a guy called Daniel

Cook um about how to build a um a

princess saving enterprise application

um uh but he uh he you know kind of

deconstructs uh Super Mario um and

obviously the the core purpose is to to

save the princess um and uh sort of

approaches it from a standard enterprise

application design standpoint uh and uh

and puts together uh some um some uh

some examples of how one might go about

it. And he impuges this approach and and

and kind of critiques it because he says

that this kind of design fails to

recognize that uh that the user is a

person. Um the person wants to learn

the person can change. The software has

an effect on the person and you have to

take that very seriously. And the words

you're using uh enable, inspire, love

care, gratitude, joy, they to me they

seem to come from a conception of the

person as somebody who's living and

changing and the software in fact hasn't

affected them. It's what so so something

Patrick and I have talked about in the

past is and and this is something I'd

love to try and describe and and you'll

have to you'll have to help me um

because I think it's really important

and it's something that I realize and it

took me many years at Apple to realize

this but it's it's an effect that I

believe occurs when you're in larger

groups of people involved in the common

cause of developing a

product. I I think one of the things

that happens is, you know, generally we

you know, we grow up wanting to be able

to relate to people and wanting to be

sociable. Um, we find ourselves um in a

work environment with hopefully a

diverse range of people.

And one of the things that's interesting

is if if we're developing products

together, um there is this I I noticed

this and it used to infuriate me before

I came to try to have a slightly more

generous interpretation of why this

happens, but that people generally want

to talk about product

attributes that you can measure easily

with a number. So if if you if you if

you guys think about it and you think

about what would dominate the

conversations that you would you would

have product conversations you will end

up talking about schedule cost speed

weight um anything where you can you

know generally agree that six is a

bigger number than

two and I understand why but the problem

is much of what you know much of my

contribution and the contribution of

designers and other

creatives, you can't measure easily with

a number. Or it's it gets even more

demeaning. It can be just, well, that's

your opinion. Well, that's like telling

your heart surgeon, well, that's your

opinion, and you having a go yourself.

Um and

so what I came to realize and I think

this is

um I the the I think the more generous

interpretation I had was we do that

because we want to try to relate to each

other. We do that because we want to be

inclusive. But then this is the

dangerous thing that happens and and I I

would I I would encourage um I I

desperately hope this doesn't sound

arrogant but I would really encourage

you to think about this because I've

been so

struck by how important this is. The

insidious lie

follows which is we spend all our time

talking about attributes because we can

easily measure them. Therefore, this is

all that

matters. And that's a lie. It's

important, but it's a partial truth.

and all of the stuff that I think

designers and other creatives

um can contribute to an experience or to

a product um that can make it delightful

to use and joyful to use as well as more

productive. Um if it's delightful and

joyful, things tend to be used more.

Um are equally important. Um, nothing

you say sounds arrogant because when you

have a beautiful British accent, then

you can get away with anything.

Um so

um, um, we're speaking about the import

and the impact of design, but if we

shift a little bit to the practice

um, is there a trade-off between speed

of execution and ensuing quality?

sometimes. Um I was hoping you'd say no.

I I I absolutely know there are fabulous

examples where um I I I would reframe

the question as as it being about

motivation.

So I think what tends to happen is

when when we're put in this situation of

having to choose um I would get

belligerent and say no we don't have to

choose we can do both um it's very hard

I mean I know you guys have heard this

lots but it's hard to do quality and

speed and cost and other things but um I

think I think there is a beauty to

working efficiently ly and I think we

can say that's um speed. I think I think

you know I know we both are pay a great

deal of attention to the words that we

use because they affect the way we think

and the words that we use to frame a

problem are some of the most important.

And so I I I I would sort of frame the

issue of of how can we work wonderfully

efficiently

um to create something with breathtaking

quality.

um as organizations grow uh there's

another kind of tension where maybe for

various people here in the audience

certainly this is something I've

experienced in the early I mean the

early days it's it's in the earliest

days it's just you um and then there's

you know maybe a couple of other people

but you can kind of excuse me kind of

say a breast of everything that's

happening and you feel like you have the

opportunity at least to exercise your

taste or judgment or opinion and you

know, whatever the uh issue might

be. And then perhaps things continue to

scale and at some point it's it's far

beyond the uh it becomes um far beyond

the scale and scope uh of any single

human. And then there's this um there's

this discontinuity where there are

things that happen happened that I never

saw. Uh I never had the chance and uh

opportunity to weigh in on. I don't know

how I feel about it. I I wouldn't have

done that thing over there. How how do

you I mean Apple was not a small company

when you were there. Certainly not in

the um in the later years. How do you

deal with this? And and I think it's

both the scale and scope, but also

doesn't it feel

intrinsically unreasonable to simply say

that this thing here doesn't accord with

my taste?

Um I think it's very reasonable to say

that. Um it's it's it's very very hard

isn't it?

Um I I think what I have I I do

believe that we go through chapters or

seasons and we the painful part is the

conclusion of one and the beginning of

the next where

we we have to adjust and we we change

our approach. I think the one thing

obviously it will not work to assume how

we started is how we're going to finish

and so I think being very clear that we

are in a constant state of flux and it's

trying to figure out I I believe what is

you know what I'm not going to

compromise

um and I think that's the very clear

focus on your principles and your values

and your motivations

I think the alarm bells always go off

for me when I think why did I do that?

Has a motivation shifted? And that's

when I've I I've really been upset with

myself and disappointed with myself and

reset. Um, but I I do think if if our

our motivations and values remain the

same, we will find ways to be the

control freaks we were born to be. Um

and and which of course I mean or we can

say care as much as we but let's be

honest.

um

um for a design team that um that you're

leading or participating in, uh what are

the

rituals? Well, one of the

the I think

um that there's nothing more important

to me than the creative team.

and declaring that and being clear about

this this is my

contribution.

Um and therefore I need to be part of an

extraordinary

team. Um but that's just you know that's

the price of admission isn't it? So you

can have the people but practice our our

process our practice the protocols are

so important. um over over many years

over I mean I've been doing this and

leading small creative teams for I mean

over 30 years these are some of the

things that I found important um if

you're dealing as I was describing

earlier with

concepts that you can't measure with

numbers if you're dealing with ideas

that always if you think about the

evolution of an idea it always starts

off as a

thought and then a and you know then a

tentative discussion. Um

uh one of the things I realize is just

how you know these ethereal thoughts

these fragile concepts, um are

precarious. And I think a small team of

people that really trust each other

um is I I I think is fundamentally

important. trust and and love each other

who care about each other. Um if you

care about, you know, then you might be

in danger of actually listening. You

know, the the thing that just kills so

many ideas. And I've worked in places

that where this happens. But people are

just desperate to be to speak and to be

heard. And there's nothing like you know

what kills most ideas I think are people

desperate to express an

opinion. And it's really let's be very

clear opinions aren't ideas.

Um I was going to say something really

rude then but I won't. Um but

um but I I I think you can say we can

cut it from the video.

But the the

the to be quiet and to listen and and

one of the things that terrifies me, I

know that I've

missed really amazing ideas that that

came from a quiet

place, from a quiet

person. And that really scares me

because I don't know what I've missed.

And so, so talking about the rituals, I

I think doing things that mean our

relationship is authentic and deep. Um

you know, one of the things that I

discovered that I think is really

important, you know, we tried a lot of

things at Apple and most of most of the

things that I, you know, tried didn't

work out. Um but a few things

um I was excited about and grew I think

to be very powerful. I think one as a

practice it's very good to make things

for each other. I think for that to

become part of your um you know daily

way of connecting to your team to think

about what you can make for each other

that's just a really it puts you in a

lovely place. It makes you more worried

about them than you. It makes you

vulnerable and it makes them

grateful. And that's a lot isn't it? I

mean ju those things just think about

what I said that's a that starts to

define a quite a lovely culture and then

connected to that something I was really

struck by Paul Graham says make things

people want and Johnny Ives says make

things for each other

yes it it's a I mean that's what we do

isn't it I mean all we're doing is at a

very personal level practicing what

we're doing you know at our professional

level all of us here I I guess almost

every single person here we we're about

making something for other people and so

perhaps I I don't know quite make things

people want I feel is sort of a business

strategy whereas it sounds like what

you're saying is make things for each

other is a team strategy. Well, as a

team, well, so for example, one of the

things I thought was great was that you

you know, every Friday morning, um, I

asked that one person on the design team

would make breakfast for the whole team

and we took it in turns and we had so

make things for each other. I'm

imagining, you know, prototype iPhones

but no, it can also be bacon, bacon and

eggs. I'm talking corn flakes and milk.

I mean, we I mean, we soared I mean

dizzy heights of some of the food and

some of it was so shocking.

Um, but it all came from the same place

in terms of motivation and um, and

something that was connected that I was

surprised at how powerful it

was, excuse me

was we would host we would take it in

turns to have the design team come to

our homes and we would spend a day

working in our in our home. And the

This is something I probably thought way

too much about.

Um, but that it was in a very very

powerful way of one doing um or

encouraging

us in our practice to do good work and

in in

in building the team. And I think

there's an interesting first of all

there's an interesting dynamic in terms

of how we regard each other. You know

the host and this is a bit like when we

make something for one another the

host is slightly anxious and concerned

about the potential judgment of their

soft

furnishings. And I mean you know what

it's like when you have somebody come to

your house. there is a

self-consciousness and well certainly I

you know an an awkwardness I feel and an

anxiety and I don't think that's

unhealthy always and um and then the

guests who you are hosting are you know

they're on better behavior than if they

were all just trundling into a

conference room and then then you've got

the context you know if you're designing

for people normal I mean Who here would

actually want to spend time in a

conference room? I can't think of a more

soulless and depressing place. I mean

the I I I always think it's funny. Think

about the relationship between the chair

you're sat on and how you feel. Like you

would you would none of you would sit

watching the TV on these chairs.

you I mean you wouldn't choose to sit on

this chair unless it was to listen to

John and Patrick. So I'm not sure that

we're the attraction this particular

event but

but I think there is an important point

which is if you're designing for people

and you're in someone's living room sat

on their sofa or sat on their floor and

your sketchbook is on their coffee

table. Of course you think differently

don't you? Of course your your

preoccupation, your you know where your

mind wanders

um is so different than if you're sat in

in a in a typical you know corporate

conference

[Applause]

room. Is beauty subjective or objective?

[Music]

um figure we now get to easier

questions. Yeah, I I think it's I don't

I mean I'd be interested to on your take

on that.

I I think it's a bit of both. I I think

um I think utility and

function, if something doesn't work

it's ugly. Um I I I've always get

frustrated when people try to, you know

they they set up a false opposition

between, you know, utility and

aesthetics. And um when I've designed

something or been involved in the design

of something that doesn't work, I don't

care what it looks like. It's ugly.

I I think the tougher thing is when we

get on to the issues of taste

and and I think design has always been a

difficult thing in that um because it's

very easy for everybody to have an

opinion. Everybody does. It just doesn't

mean every opinion has the same weight.

And I think that I don't I think that's

a relatively robust statement in that if

you've studied if you've studied and

studied and studied design although I

know people who've studied and studied

design with terrible taste. So

um I don't know.

Um yeah, it's a very it's it's a good

Okay. So, um Christopher Alexander said

that um that between two objects or two

choices or two paths, the one that feels

more humane uh is the one that you

should choose. but that this kind of

sense of humanity in the object is a

better guide than beauty which perhaps

pulls you into more subjective

territory. Does that resonate at all or

do you think that sounds crazy? No, I I

think that's absolutely the case and I I

think that people I I think um generally

most companies patronize consumers. Um I

think

users

are I actually do believe a very

sophisticated

And um I think there's issues of beauty

of h you know of of of humanity. I also

think, and this goes back to the first

thing I was saying about, you know, my

sense of Steve and and the Apple team

you know, looking at the the first Mac

um that you sense

care.

Um and I I've I've tried to talk about

this before. Um I really do believe and

and I I wish that I had, you know

empirical evidence. Um but I do believe

that we have this ability to sense care

in whe it's easy in a service because

you confront care because you confront

the person when it's vicarious when it's

via an object where when when it's via a

piece of software. It's more complex.

But I think you might understand it more

if I said you sense

carelessness. You know carelessness.

And so I think it's reasonable to

believe that you also know care and you

sense care and

you work very hard and I felt

passionately about finishing the inside

of products. Um and when I mean

finishing I mean um you know we designed

everything and we cared

about everything.

Um, and you know, I mean, you I'm sure

many of you have heard the bit about

you know, a great cabinet maker finishes

the back of a drawer, even though it's

unlikely it will be seen. But in the

same way, I think a mark of our how

evolved we are as people. It's what we

do when no one

sees. And and and I think that's that

that's a it's indicative. It's a it's a

powerful marker of who we truly are. Um

and I I would be haunted by, you know

if all we did was the

outside my I would have this nagging

feeling in my tummy that we were just

being superficial.

[Applause]

So you mentioned modernism uh a little

bit earlier in this in this discussion

and there's sort of a a puzzle that I've

been trying to reconcile around

modernism um that maybe you can sort of

help me with where um so much early

modernism was kind of deliberately ugly.

Like you have the Duchamp fountain and

you have I mean even Picasso's work I

mean it's it's dissonant, right? It's

not it's certainly not classically

beautiful. Um and then you sort of had

this political veilance to the um to the

program and you know Gropius said that

Bow House was a he said in the manifesto

that it was a socialist movement um and

you know you were originally trained in

bow house design right yes yeah so um so

there's this kind of and and you've

shown and the a tonality and you know

all this stuff right um but then the

Apple products and the products that you

designed are very beautiful uh and Apple

is not a socialist

undertaking. And so what's going on

here? And so the particular thing I'm

trying to figure out is was there a

strain to modernism where it was

intentionally trying to be dissonant or

you know even ugly or to shock people or

something and how maybe now with some

remove you know you're no longer at

Apple. How do you view all that view

that whole thing and what's your what's

your take on modernism? That's a great

question.

I I I think what tends to happen is is

very often at the beginning of a

movement whether it's a design or an art

movement there is that

um that incredible energetic

um I mean in in a way by definition if

it if it marks the beginning of a

movement there is

energy and I think often

beauty

is it evolves. Beauty takes time. Um

and very often at the beginning of an

energy, it's an explosion and there's

not

time.

Um, I would dare presume that certainly

if we're talking about fine art that

people would say they they have no time.

They don't want to be distracted by

concepts of beauty. And so I think for

sure, you know, if if if a lot of

modernism was driven by, you know, the

heady um excitement about new materials

um your obsession was the manipulation

of that new material. Um I one thing I

mean I'm not sure how many of you guys

know about Bow House, but this was a

movement in in Germany. Um but what you

will know you know you'll be and it any

it range from fine art to furniture to

architecture Patrick mentioned Walter

Gropius and um an incredible

um incredible movement but there were

you know what you would probably be most

familiar with would be chairs like um

the buer chair or the facility chair

which were if you think of try and think

of like um polished steel chromeplated

tubes that are bent. You know those sort

of bent chairs. So what's interesting

there is these guys had just figured

they were so excited because they'd

figured out how to bend

tubes. And so what did they do? They

bent tubes. And that's why all the

furniture is bent tube furniture. So I I

think that I mean that's what I would

have done if id figured because you know

when you bend tubes they tend to kink

and so they'd figured out this way of

putting springs into tubes and so of

course you run away and you'd bend as

many tubes as you could get your hands

on. Um beauty probably wasn't at the

front of your mind

tubes. So when I look at your work and

we haven't yet uh talked about love from

although maybe if you want to give

people a sort of a short summary of how

you think about that that might be

helpful but when I look at your more

recent work and some of what love from

uh has done um I see it as uh

as

Johnny's ornament era uh where Apple was

so stripped down and bare and you know

reduced to the essence And now uh I I

see that uh I mean maybe this is a

misapprehension um but now you're more

curious to uh to try other styles. Is

that true? I I I think it's a lovely

observation. Yeah. I I I think um so

it's nearly six years ago that I left

Apple. Um

and my goal was to build

um the most extraordinary creative team

I possibly could. Um, and and we're

about 50 60 people. Many of many of the

the designers I've worked with for

decades and decades, which means I

worked with them at

Apple. And um but it's a very diverse

team. So it's a team of industrial

designers, graphic designers, user

interface designers, architects

typographers musicians sound

designers. And I I think per perhaps

what what you're referring to is that

just the the the

the our usefulness or or the the the

people that we're collaborating with.

That's a very diverse group now where

before we were very focused and we had

um a clear criteria for what we were

doing. Um but if you're working for um

the king on his his coronation um

identity, that of course would demand um

a very different approach than the one

we would have taken if we were designing

instructional products for how to use an

iMac. So um so I think that's that's um

follow what you're saying. Yeah, I think

it's it it's it's really what the the

problem is that we're, you know, we're

we're addressing. Um, so you're talking

a lot about the purpose of design and

the effect that design has on the on the

recipient, on the user, on the consumer

you know, whatever the case is. Um

there's widespread concern and

speculation uh about the effects of

smartphones slash the internet doesn't

necessarily you know accord just with

the the smartphone um but on some of

these products on attention spans uh and

you know whether it has some adverse

effect on kids or teens or who knows

maybe all of us maybe the adults as well

um you know there's questions over with

AI whether it you know changes how

education works and cheating and school

you know, just so all of these

technologies that we create have this um

potential double-sidedness to them. And

so I guess as somebody who clearly takes

seriously and thinks seriously about the

full effects, how do you think about the

um about

the the possible harms?

Yeah, I think when um and and this

is there's probably not not anything

that I

I'm can be more preoccupied or bothered

by than what you've just described. Um I

think when you're innovating, of course

there will be unintended consequences.

you hope that the majority will be um

pleasant surprises. Um certain products

that I've been very very involved with

I think there were some unintended

consequences that were far from

pleasant. Um my issue is that even

though there was no intention, I think

there still needs to be

responsibility. Um and that weighs on me

as you know heavily.

Um I think um what I think has been

parti particularly difficult is

traditionally when you look at

um

innovation I mean there's nothing new

with I mean if you if you um one one

thing I mean Patrick and I were months

ago talking about um some of the

architecture that was associated with

the industrial revolution um in

England

And there so you know there are examples

well we could talk about this Google

Victorian pumping stations do so a

pumping so you imagine this

idea that sewage used to flow freely

down the streets and then suddenly and

this is for all of humanity's existence

um if if there were streets

Um and then suddenly sewage was

silently and predictably and

consistently kept from

streets and the machines that achieved

this were housed in cathedral like

structures. I mean it's

amazing and there there there is just in

incredible precedent for these huge when

when you have a big technological change

it impacts society. Um and the

industrial revolution is um my goodness

a profound profoundly

um

significant um you know occurrence in

the the the sort of mid middle of the

1800s in in certainly in the UK.

Um, the thing that that I think is is so

challenging is there was time for

society to to to stop and consider what

was happening. And there was time for

structure

um and and whether that was sort of

infrastructure, whether it was sort of

social frameworks to to try and

assimilate and and deal with these

shifts. And I think what's been very

challenging is um we are moving so fast

um the discussion comes far too late and

there can't be I mean unless there is I

mean the thing that I find encouraging

about AI is it's

very rare for there to be a discussion

about

AI and there not to be the appropriate

concerns about safety.

What I was far more worried about was

for years and years and years there

would be discussions about social media

and I was extremely concerned about

social media and there was no discussion

whatsoever and and it's the insidious um

you know challenge of of a problem

that's not even talked about I think is

always more concerning. Um and so yeah

I I think the rate of change is

dangerous. I think um even if you you

you're innocent in your intention, I

think if you're involved in something um

that has poor consequences, you need to

own it. And um that ownership personally

um has driven a lot of what I've been

working on that I can't talk about the

moment but look forward to being able to

talk about um some point in the future.

[Applause]

Um, you mentioned

um, I wasn't going to bring it up, but

you mentioned the Victorian pump

station. So, um, uh, which, um, which

place and time in history had the best

design?

I Oh, I that's such a good

question. I I I would I wouldn't dare to

answer, but I I do think that the um I I

think what happened in the industrial

revolution I I am just absolutely

obsessed with at the moment. You know

that there were um you know, as a team

at Love, we've been doing we've been

doing research. Um um I'm lucky enough

to work with this amazing writer called

Jamaima who I think might be here here

this afternoon. She's she's been doing a

bunch of research

um on on

on whe whether it's sort of physical

objects or social

consequences.

Um and and I I think because I see

design as much more than

objects. I I think for example um some

of the there were there were two

companies in England um that really were

born out of the um you know they were

Quakers. There was one called Cadbury's

and um the other was called a company

called Fries. Both Birmingham, right? I

I think they were I think in the

Midlands. Yeah. Um, but what was so

interesting was the people that ran

these companies, they also designed the

housing. And you don't just design a

place to put bedrooms, housing, which

meant towns, which meant, you know, this

sense of civic

responsibility.

And of course, that was appropriate

because people were moving. of the

industrial revolution was not just a

mass manufacturer for the first time in

history, but it was this huge movement

from the land to cities, which had never

happened before. And so I I just think

that generally when we talk about these

huge huge shifts, of course we all get

nervous and worried, but there are

wonderfully

encouraging prototypes that we can look

to. And there was I mean so just after

cabri and fries they were first um there

was um Hershey's in Philadelphia I think

and a very similar approach and concern.

Um I I know less about that specific

example, but um but so I I love it when

the innovation is is, you know, it's

cultural, it's political, um you know

very often it's spiritual and it's um

manifest in in in buildings. But

um you don't um you you you speak in

public now very rarely and so um of

course very grateful that you're here.

Um we're at a programmable financial

infrastructure conference.

Um how and why should people I mean and

of course the businesses here are from

every crevice and you know aspect and um

and uh you know different sector of the

economy. Um but for people in the

infrastructure domain um or for

businesses like Stripe and maybe Stripe

is kind of an example or can be you know

stand in for other businesses where you

know ostensibly uh perhaps one ought not

care um intensely about design in the

way that perhaps a consumer uh

electronics company ought to. Um why

should a business with the

characteristics that Stripe has care so

much?

Well, if Stripe didn't, Stripe wouldn't

be Stripe and you wouldn't be sat here.

So

um I every bone in my body. I I truly

believe that

um if we want to

participate um as members of the the

species we

um I actually don't think we have a

choice. I think it's an obligation and a

responsibility to care for each other.

And I mean, Freud said a great thing.

Freud said, you know, all there

is, all there is is love and

work. Work and love. That's that's all

there is. And so

um, we spend a lot of time working. And

so, if we elect to spend our time

working, not caring about other

people, I think not only do other people

um suffer. I think we suffer. I think

that's a corrosive existence. And so I

think it's I would see it as a not only

a responsibility but truly a privilege

if we get to practice and express our

concern and our care um for for one

another.

Um, yeah, I don't see it as a I I don't

I don't carve my existence up in that

way of of thinking his this is, you

know, with my commercial hat on or my

I'm just Johnny.

On that note, thank you so much for

joining us. Thank you very

much. Thank you.