Abandoned Under China’s One Child Law-Ella

All right, Ella. Ella, where are you from originally? Where'd you grow up?

from originally? Where'd you grow up?

Originally from Jang Su, China. I was

adopted at 8 months old, but I've basically since I've been conscious, I've been in Dallas, Texas. You were

adopted. Mhm. Tell me about your parents.

So, I don't know anything about them.

And um I found out at like a residential rehab facility when I was a teenager that my parents, my birth parents

actually left me at a bus stop. And I

thought the the way I thought it happened is they left me with my name.

So I thought they at least gave me a name, you know, but turns out they didn't. So I was just alone at that bus

didn't. So I was just alone at that bus stop until someone eventually brought me to an orphanage. And what age was that you think? They said it looked like I

you think? They said it looked like I was a day old. Um but they they really had no way of knowing. This have

something to do with the laws in China.

Yes, it did. So I was born during the one child law. So um they probably couldn't keep me. I try to find a lot of comfort in that. But then again, there's

there's a lot of issues that I've had with it, you know. So I feel like it's a hard thing to come to realization about, especially when it was kept a secret

from me. my whole life. And then to be

from me. my whole life. And then to be told like so bluntly at the rehab that I was at, which is a wilderness program, it like shocked me. I remember when I

found out it was like it triggered something in me that I had always felt but had never been able to like put a

name on, which was that like I was just unwanted basically. So, I found out and

unwanted basically. So, I found out and I just remember crying really hard and going into like a really dark space because of that.

And the the family that adopted you, tell me about them. So, I was adopted by two moms. My parents are gay and from what I've heard my like one of I I forget which one of

my moms they went with my their parents but they told the orphanage that my other mom was the sister cuz I maybe they had some issues with being gay

there. Um so they got me.

there. Um so they got me.

Um, everything was good in their marriage until there was an instance of infidelity and my mom and both of my

adoptive moms separated from one another and the mom that committed the act of infidelity remarried that same woman.

Um, it was okay at the beginning. You

know I remember being not a troubled kid at all. I never got in trouble. I was a

all. I never got in trouble. I was a good kid. I maybe the one thing that I

good kid. I maybe the one thing that I wouldn't do was like practice piano. My

my parents had me playing instruments and getting into music and stuff. It

wasn't until around puberty that I started having like behavioral issues.

Now, at first it started I think 12 or 13. You know, I grew up pretty

13. You know, I grew up pretty privileged. I went to private school. I

privileged. I went to private school. I

made I was an A& student. Like nothing

was really wrong until the 8th grade happened. And it was the summer and I

happened. And it was the summer and I just remember kind of going into what I now know is depression. I didn't know anything about depression or what it was

at the time, but I was sleeping like all the time, like all day. I I had no appetite. I wasn't eating. And even if I

appetite. I wasn't eating. And even if I was hungry, I just didn't care. Like I

couldn't get up. Um, and then I just remember having like a really unfamiliar feeling of like not wanting to be here

and like kind of thinking about self harm, but like didn't really know what it was, I wouldn't have done it. I

wouldn't have killed myself, but the ideation was there. And I think now as an adult when I've been depressed, there's a clear difference between what

I felt suic like in my own suicide like mindset when I was a kid to when I'm an adult. Um, so that happened. I told my

adult. Um, so that happened. I told my mom about it and she was worried but she put me on medication. So I was on that medication.

medication. So I was on that medication.

Freshman year, I started having more behavioral issues. I had really bad anger issues.

issues. I had really bad anger issues.

Like, and it it wasn't just like anger, it was rage. And I didn't know why. I

just knew something felt really wrong.

Um, looking back, you know, I can't really put a label on what caused me to be so angry. And I have my own theories.

One of them is that, you know, in high school I did AP psychology in an attempt to help myself, like get some answers about myself. And we learned about this

about myself. And we learned about this thing called contact comfort, which is apparently really important for um the mother to have with the child

immediately after they are birthed. And

if they don't get that, it kind of messes can cause a lot of issues for the kid in adulthood. So, I assume with what I know about how I was left and stuff, I

didn't get that. And even in the orphanage, you know, there was so many babies in there, there was barely any I staff, I guess, is what you

would call it. Um, and actually recently when I was talking to my mother that I live with, because I don't live with my mother that remarried anymore, she said

that when they got me and were interacting with me for the first time, they were really surprised that like I had so much trouble bonding. Like I

wouldn't accept physical affection and stuff. And I had a a hard time like

stuff. And I had a a hard time like emoting and stuff. Like they would try to get me to laugh. like they would do all these funny faces and they would, you know, tickle me and I would just

kind of stand there like no emotion. Um, so back to what I was

emotion. Um, so back to what I was saying, high school, I started having really intense behavioral issues. Sophomore year or my junior

issues. Sophomore year or my junior year, I can't remember what it was. I

went impatient for the first time, so to a psychiatric unit.

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It was eyeopening and I want to say that that's kind of my coming of age moment and the

the time where I experienced a true loss of innocence.

Um because for forever basically since I had been struggling the only pain I had known was my own which kind of actually protected me in a way. And then I remember getting thrown into the psych

ward and hearing the kids tell their stories and, you know, group therapy and stuff

and just being horrified. And that

became my reality for a really long time. That was what I was taught about

time. That was what I was taught about the world, that the world was actually a really evil place. And I think it was 10 times harder for me to break that mindset for a really long time because

it was kids. And I kind of had this realization that kids didn't ask to be here, you know, and these horrible things were happening to them like sexual abuse and you know, they were

victims of rape and there were girls that were so had such bad eating disorders that it was horrible to see. And there were also like a lot of

see. And there were also like a lot of kids that were there for self harm. And

that was probably the hardest thing to be exposed to because I remember there was a 13-year-old girl and you know she didn't really keep her wounds

wrapped. She maybe she wanted people to

wrapped. She maybe she wanted people to see them. I don't know. But they were

see them. I don't know. But they were horrific.

And it trauma it traumatized me not in a selfish way cuz that what was happening to them didn't happen to me. We all had completely different stories. But that

was kind of like the second I remember kind of having an awakening about the world

that evil was real, you know. So, I got out of the psych word, was in an IOP program, and then I went back pretty

shortly after entering the IOP program cuz I was still really unstable. Like, I

was fluctuating between like rage and like some weird hypomomanic state. I

don't know if it was because they kept putting me on so much medicine that my body wasn't used to. So I got to the second psych word and this was actually a better facility than the other. Like it taught

you tools, you know, it taught you how to cope. Did I necessarily walk out of that

cope. Did I necessarily walk out of that and do those tools when I got upset? No.

But I also think I wasn't at a point in life where I would listen to anyone or anything because I was so angry and

depressed.

Um, I was fine for the most part for a couple months.

Um, and then I think when I turned 17, I started getting really sick again.

And I didn't really do drugs as a teenager. Like I

would smoke weed sometimes and I would experiment a little bit, but it was never like an addiction, you know? It

wasn't like I like physical where I physically relied on it and needed it, but I made a stupid mistake of buying a

lot of Xanax. I don't remember how much how like the amount of pills that I bought, but um I was working a job and I was cool with some of the chefs and I was like, "Hey, do you think you could

buy take me to buy drugs real quick?"

And they were like, "Yeah, we'll take you." So they took me and I picked them

you." So they took me and I picked them up and it was actually from an ex-boyfriend that I got them from. Went

back to my house and I didn't take them until the next morning. And I don't remember how much I

morning. And I don't remember how much I took necessarily, but I took enough to black out for 3 days. And

I got out of the blackout phase in a ch and like the children's hospital where I live. And I didn't remember anything. I

live. And I didn't remember anything. I

had no idea why I was there. And that

scared me. And you know, I had a nurse come in and ask me like, "Do you remember who I am?" And I was like, "No, like I don't I remember like taking the pills." And I don't remember anything

pills." And I don't remember anything after that.

So of course with the state that I was in and because I was an adolescent, they forced me to go back impatient. So I was sent to Arlington.

um to into a facility there.

And again, just the same traumatic experience, really awful things that happened to kids. I think that was the worst facility I'd been to out of all of them. um based on the kids stories that

them. um based on the kids stories that were there and I was there for a while and you know you get phone calls you're able to talk

to your family and stuff and I kept asking my mom like why am I still here like are when are you going to get me out because the past few times I had been institutionalized they always

pulled me out early against doctor's orders because they just didn't want me there but they weren't doing that this time and that was making me scared And around

the ninth day, they my therapist and the impatient told me that I was going to be sent to a residential facility. I lost it. I

residential facility. I lost it. I

didn't want to go. I was so angry. But at the same

go. I was so angry. But at the same time, you know, thinking about it now, where else was I supposed to go so that I could be safe? Like, I'm not sure.

Like, yeah, it's it was a gritty, horrible facility that a kid shouldn't be be at, but I didn't know. I can't

imagine like where else I would have gone. Like, my life would have just been

gone. Like, my life would have just been continuous impatient visits and IOPS and like all this stuff that wasn't working to stabilize me, you know? Like, should

it have necessarily been like an aggressive wilderness program? Not

necessarily, but it definitely should have been something residential, you know? And I was so mad at the time

know? And I was so mad at the time because I didn't understand that. It

just felt like anytime I got sent away, it was cuz they didn't care. They didn't

want to deal with me. Like, no one really asked me the question why when I was growing up, which I felt like now was maybe important. like I was having all these behavioral issues and you know

it was always like put a band-aid on it or distract yourself. It was never the question like why do you feel the need to behave like this? Like why are you so

angry? Why are you so depressed? But at

angry? Why are you so depressed? But at

the same time, you know, you can't expect people to read your mind about that kind of stuff. You know, that's not really a fair position to put someone else in.

So, I ended up willingly going to the facility in Alabama. And when I got there, I was

Alabama. And when I got there, I was like, it was like a huge culture shock.

Like, like I said, I grew up very privileged. Like, anything I needed, I

privileged. Like, anything I needed, I had um lived in a nice area. You know, this was like a huge culture shock. This was

like the middle of nowhere, Alabama.

We're sleeping outside.

Um, there's kids that the kids stories there are 10 times more awful. Um, so I get there, you know,

and I'm scared, but I don't cry. I try

to keep it together cuz my mom is saying goodbye to me and I don't want her to be scared because I know that she was shocked too at what the facility looked like.

Going back to what I was saying before, it wasn't necessarily the fact that we were like kind of forced to do manual labor and like one of the things

we had to do was fill potholes. So, we

would walk like a mile to fill buckets with gravel, like multiple buckets with gravel and we would walk back and we would put them in the hole. Um, and then

just repeat that process over and like pull weeds outside for like three hours.

Um it wasn't that that really affected me like yeah it did but to a certain extent in my stay there it stop I stopped caring about that and more so I

just couldn't handle hearing what had been what had happened in these children's lives and I realized that they most always had some horrible

backstory from when they were children or their childhood or something really really traumatic. like happened in their

really traumatic. like happened in their teenage years. And I just remember

years. And I just remember feeling really overwhelmed, honestly.

And it kind of became like a guilt because I felt like after hearing everything that they had gone through, I didn't really have a right to feel the

way I was feeling. Like so traumatized by what I had been through, you know, but you know, that's more of a

perspective I have now that I'm trying to be okay with. You know, everything everyone processes things differently. I

had a psychiatrist tell me once like some people could stub their toe and it could be traumatic and affect them for the rest of their lives. You know, it's just about how the person chooses to

deal with it. And then I eventually graduated from

it. And then I eventually graduated from that facility cuz you had to graduate to leave the program and was okay. I started college,

you know. I actually Okay. So, I

you know. I actually Okay. So, I

actually got kicked out of my private school. I was asked to leave. I had the

school. I was asked to leave. I had the choice to either leave willingly or um get expelled. And I didn't want to get expelled. So, I left willingly and

get expelled. So, I left willingly and went to like kind of an alternative school and then got sent to public school. I was okay for a little. Um and

school. I was okay for a little. Um and

then, you know, still had like therapy regularly and school counselors checking on me and psychiatry, like all the help

that I could possibly need. And then the second I turned 18, I got the formal diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, which didn't surprise anyone

once they looked into it like and started reading about it. Um, I was like unwilling to accept that diagnosis

because I didn't want it put on me and I felt like I had already been through so much. I was starting to identify with

much. I was starting to identify with being an institutionalized person, which is pretty frequent in people that have

experienced that. Like you kind of just

experienced that. Like you kind of just feel like you belong there. Like that's

the only place that you're that's where your life is headed. You know, your life is headed for constant facilities, constant, you know, shoving medication down your

throat because you become so used to the chaos of that. And I still deal with that kind of being a part of my identity you

know. Um, I went to community college

know. Um, I went to community college and was fine. I made good grades, you know, and then dropped out for a little,

went back, did some more classes, and transferred to like a a 4-year university in my adulthood. But I kept falling into like these really bad

depressions. So, I kept dropping out and

depressions. So, I kept dropping out and I didn't feel like it was good for me to be in school cuz number one, I had no idea if I even wanted to use the degree

that I was getting and number two, I just felt like I needed to work at the time and like learn some stuff on my own. Now, that's pretty much where I'm

own. Now, that's pretty much where I'm at.

Um, I recently fell into a really bad depression and it was different because this time it wasn't for attention. Like

I'll I'll admit that. I have no problem admitting that. A lot of the times when

admitting that. A lot of the times when I was younger and I would, you know, self harm or like get angry. It was for attention

or like scream about my pain and and go into these really bad neurotic episodes.

It was so that people could see how much pain I was in. And I wanted them to see.

I wanted them to know. I wanted everyone to hurt just as badly as I was hurting. I don't really have an answer

hurting. I don't really have an answer as to why. I think that hurt people like to hurt people sometimes. But like I said, this

sometimes. But like I said, this depression was different. This was like pretty textbook depression. basically

similar to the one where I was 12, but it was much darker because as an adult dealing with it, it felt 10 times realer. Like you have I had this

realer. Like you have I had this realization that the pain I carried I couldn't run

away from and it wasn't going to go away. It might get better, you know, if

away. It might get better, you know, if I work through it, but I would never be able to forget it. And that's what put me in that state. I couldn't handle the

fact that I would have to live with my pain for the rest of my life. It felt

undoable. It felt like an infathomable thing to do actually. And so I didn't tell anyone actually. You know, my mom was worried. I she told me that I should

was worried. I she told me that I should go see my therapist and go see my psychiatrist. So I did. Um, I was

psychiatrist. So I did. Um, I was completely honest with them. You

know, it was a really cutthroat depression. Like, it was an all or

depression. Like, it was an all or nothing thing. And it was like I

nothing thing. And it was like I realized I had two choices. Actually,

three. I could either take the easy way out and kill myself. I could continue to sit and be miserable, or I could do the

hard work that took to be able to accept the things that happened and be okay with that.

It was going to hurt either way. It was

going to hurt all three ways actually, whether I was dead or alive. You know,

it's going to hurt if I sit and be sit in it and continue to be miserable because I'm comfortable in that state of mind. And it was going

to hurt if I had if I chose to work through it because it would bring up those feelings that I h that I've had for so long that I don't want to feel.

And that's part of the reason that I've been putting it off for so long and, you know, not taking therapy seriously and choosing to be miserable. It's because I'm comfortable

miserable. It's because I'm comfortable in it. It offers me some type

in it. It offers me some type of like I don't even know what to say about

it. It just is something I'm deeply

it. It just is something I'm deeply attached to that sadness. And I don't know if it's because of some of the things that happened in the psych ward

with the children which they they tell you in the adolescent unit not to bond.

you're not there to make friends, but you know, you throw a bunch of [ __ ] up kids in a hospital. Like, they're going to bond. They're going to share phone

to bond. They're going to share phone numbers. They're going to share

numbers. They're going to share Snapchats. They're going to share

Snapchats. They're going to share Instagrams. They're going to get overly attached to people that are there. It's

It's just what happens, you know? Did

you feel loved as a child? As a young child?

I didn't. No, I still don't feel loved, honestly. And that feels wrong because

honestly. And that feels wrong because I'm aware that people love me. But I

feel like my adoption has affected me so very deeply. I don't think that's a feeling

deeply. I don't think that's a feeling I'll be able to shake for a very long time. The adoption or the the rejection,

time. The adoption or the the rejection, for lack of a better word. The

rejection. Yeah. Yeah. Of your

completely of your biological parents.

Yeah. Which is interesting to think about because I know they couldn't keep me, you know, I know that was an option with the law.

Still, the way I was left and just how careless it seemed like hurts more than anything. And you

don't know the details. I don't know the details. Maybe maybe you weren't the

details. Maybe maybe you weren't the second child. Mhm. Who knows? I don't

second child. Mhm. Who knows? I don't

know if I was the only child. Right.

Your mom may have had borderline personality disorder and just wasn't able to deal.

Yeah. But I spend a lot of time missing my mom and dad all all the time actually. You know, I try not to think

actually. You know, I try not to think about it. I try to suppress it as much

about it. I try to suppress it as much as I can. But in school and like in private school, I had a really good English teacher and actually he helped me process a lot of the things I was

going through with my adoption through this the assignments that he would give and all of my poetry and all of my writing assignments were all about my

birth parents. You

birth parents. You know, not having a mom and dad really affected me.

That feels selfish because I was given a second chance at life, you know, and I don't I know that I shouldn't feel that

way, but I spend a lot a lot of my time just wanting them so badly. Like so

badly. I feel like I don't fit in anywhere. I feel like even when people

anywhere. I feel like even when people tell me they love me and need me, I don't believe them.

I move through life really paranoid and I can't trust

anyone. And a part of me feels like

anyone. And a part of me feels like I deserve I deserved to be left that

way. like something I had done that like

way. like something I had done that like having carrying me was so bad for my mom

that she didn't want me, you know, like I like my existence was so was such a

burden to her that she left me the way she did, you know, right? But you could also be another child who went through the same

abandonment that you went through and saw your adoptive parents as a blessing.

And was so grateful for that. I think a lot of adopted kids have been like that.

Yeah, I agree. It's perspective. I think

it is perspective. And I'm learning every day how important perspective is.

I'm trying to find a lot of comfort in the whatifs right now. Like what if instead of laying in bed all day and sleeping all day, I get up in the

morning and get ready and go for a walk for a little bit. I start I've been starting to read like some books I've had forever cuz I really feel like

learning is something I still care about and I feel like you can learn even if you're not in school.

Um, it's offered me a lot of perspective changes, but again, I think it's going to be the process of practicing those positive thoughts to

break the cycle that I've been in of being really pessimistic and, you know, negative. Sometimes depression is just

negative. Sometimes depression is just depression. Mhm. It isn't like your

depression. Mhm. It isn't like your circumstances were so awful. Sometimes

if you have a dis depressed disposition, you're just going to be depressed. Mhm.

You could win the lottery and you'd still be depressed. I think that scares me a lot.

Being happy.

Being happy scares me because it's uncomfortable and I feel like if I was happy, I wouldn't let myself be for some reason.

Or like you just mentioned, if something good happened, you know, that I should be grateful for, I would still

be really depressed. You know, that scares me a

depressed. You know, that scares me a lot that I can't that's always going to be there. Going back to what I said

be there. Going back to what I said before, you know, you can be put on medicine, you can get the therapy, you can, you know, go to a facility, you

know, but if you have the mindset that I'm trying to break right now, you will never get better because you're not working with yourself. You're

working against yourself.

And for a while, I've been battling myself, you know, leaning into the negative thoughts, you know, doing nothing to help myself because a

sick part of me likes being miserable.

And this is an interesting thing that I recently came to realize when I was reading a book is that for a

while or up until this point I realized I've had an ego about the pain I felt.

I've felt like because I've experienced so much pain firsthand, it gives me a better perspective at the reality of life than

anyone else, which is wrong. That's

completely wrong.

Um, and honestly, I I wish that that didn't exist within me cuz it still does, you know. I still,

you know, I'll meet someone happy and I feel like I'm like, you don't deserve to be happy, you know, that's not

fair at all, actually.

Um, just stuff like that. Are you

artistic?

Very. Yeah.

There have been a lot of great artists who are severely depressed. Mhm. And

that's just the way it is. Yeah.

And if you were one of those happy people that you just described, it's not very likely you'd be such a great artist. They kind of the depression and

artist. They kind of the depression and the art artistic mindset kind of go together.

You know, it's interesting. I find that I can only create at really low spaces.

And when I'm kind of like baseline, you know, I'm doing okay.

I I'm so uninspired. What if I think that's what makes me attached to it, you know? What if you just dug into your art

know? What if you just dug into your art and saw it as a gift? I would say my art isn't necessarily like painting or drawing or anything. I

would say it's more so like writhing.

Yeah, it could be anything. Yeah. You

know, a lot of great poets, writers, songwriters were terribly depressed. Mhm. And they were geniuses.

depressed. Mhm. And they were geniuses.

Yeah.

I don't know. I've been writing recently. And if you had asked them on

recently. And if you had asked them on their deathbed if they would rather have been happy and the trade-off for being happy is you probably don't have that depth to create like that. You know, it's

interesting like you probably say they during a really weird like manic time in my life, which I'm not bipolar. I was

just drinking like 1,200 milligrams of caffeine every day for some reason. I

wrote like a lot. And one of the things that I wrote was if I had the choice between being naive and happy or the choice

between being miserable with perspective, I would choose misery every time. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

time. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I think, you know, I actually watched your intro video before I decided to do this and you were talking about how like you use these videos of

as kind of a crash course on empathy. I

think I have my character defaults and I have my own ways of coping. But I will say the one thing that I did get out of

everything I've experienced is empathy.

I feel like it surprises me that a lot of people don't really have that or they have it to an extent but they don't really, you know, fully understand what

it's like to be in really dark places which, you know, you can't you can't knock anyone for that cuz everyone's life is different. I

think that would be really unfair if you know you constantly went to some, which is something that I've done before. You

constantly like try to grasp at someone that doesn't want know number one know what it's like to be in those dark places and

number two you you put everything that you're going through on them. I did that a lot when I was a teenager because I didn't felt like I belonged anywhere. So

when I had a friend, I would kind of treat them as my safety net, which is so unfair, especially to do as an adolescent. You know, that that's a kid.

adolescent. You know, that that's a kid.

They're probably going through their own things, too. To that to the same extent

things, too. To that to the same extent as me, maybe not. But like to do that to someone else, that's not fair. Cuz like

I said before, you can't expect someone to save you and you can't expect someone to read your mind, you know? And what I wanted, my goal with doing that was

ultimately for them to be able to save me, to fix me, you know, to tell me that everything was going to be okay. Cuz I

wanted I wanted someone else to do it for me. I didn't want to do it by

for me. I didn't want to do it by myself. I didn't think I was strong

myself. I didn't think I was strong enough to do it by myself. I didn't

believe in myself. I hated myself. I

just wanted someone to magically like snap their fingers and have all the pain within me go away and be completely normal.

I like that you said you enjoy being unhappy.

Yeah, it's [ __ ] up, right? I' I've had two people very close to me who are similarly depressed as you and I honestly believe they enjoy it. It's a

sick [ __ ] attachment. It's an

attachment to its core is what it is. I

don't understand it. I've journalled so much about trying to understand it.

There's a certain comfortability of sadness. Maybe it's that, you know, they

sadness. Maybe it's that, you know, they maybe feel like it gives them a firmer grasp on reality.

But when I think about that now, maybe I say that as a way to protect myself.

cuz it scares me how much I like it.

It's very complicated. Humans are very complicated. I I don't understand it,

complicated. I I don't understand it, you know? I feel like maybe you get so

know? I feel like maybe you get so used to being in such dark places.

Anything other than that feels really uncomfortable and you can't do it. That's how I feel. I can't accept

do it. That's how I feel. I can't accept good things, you know? It's weird. Like,

people will try to do good things for me and I won't let them. I won't let anyone help me because I like the way I am. It has to be some type of weird ego

am. It has to be some type of weird ego thing to me. It has to be about some something about that misery feeding your ego in some some type of way. It does

that for me, but again, that might be to protect myself, you know? I'll be honest about that. And I used to pride myself on like

that. And I used to pride myself on like not having an ego, which is funny because that's proof that I quite literally do.

And I think it's just like a sick addiction that misery. like you get a taste of it

that misery. like you get a taste of it and you get a taste of what it's like to feel so deeply in a bad way and you just don't

want to let that go like it it is you don't want to ever not be able to feel that way again because it does something to you. It

changes you in a good way or a bad way, you know, but the ability for me it's mostly the ability to be able to feel that deeply is what I like. But it

doesn't mean your life is any less than than a happy person's or is not on the right track. Because I

truly believe that people who have your disposition can find love just as well as someone who is naturally upbeat and

happy and you can be just as fulfilled and creative and do great things in life. Mhm. It's just you're you're just

life. Mhm. It's just you're you're just going to be a downer. Yeah. doesn't mean

it's a bad thing. Yeah, it looks on the surface to be a bad a bad thing, but it's it's just as as from from people who don't have that kind

of negative or down or or whatever word you want to put on it, that mindset, that disposition, we see it as broken, but it's really not. It's almost like

it's better. It's almost richer, deeper.

it's better. It's almost richer, deeper.

I would say that's why I like exactly why I like it. You should just enjoy it.

I guess it's kind of just about writing the And there there are people who love people like you. Really? Trust me.

That's funny. Well, I hope I find them cuz so far everyone's fed up with me.

Um, yeah, it definitely has to do with that rich feeling. Being happy is overrated. Exactly. Like I just said, I

overrated. Exactly. Like I just said, I choose miser misery with perspective over being naive and happy. It's

something about like that feeling. It's

almost like euphoric in a way. People

like you roll their eyes. You roll your eyes at happy people. Yeah. But at the same time,

like the the depression itself is really weird because it's like your like the symptoms, the physical symptoms like your appetite

goes away. For me at least, some people

goes away. For me at least, some people they their appetite they eat, they overeat. You know, your appetite goes

overeat. You know, your appetite goes away and you you kind of stop taking care of yourself. And while you're not

taking care of yourself, it almost creates some sort of like euphoric feeling in a

way. Maybe it's the dehydration, not

way. Maybe it's the dehydration, not eating, but yeah. But

um there's something soft at its core about it. It's not an innocent softness though. It's a very

like whoa maybe maybe you need to take a step back. But there is something

step back. But there is something complex about it. And going back to the psych word, when I was an adolescent, that was the first time I

actually experienced true human duality. Cuz for example, like there was

duality. Cuz for example, like there was a girl there and she had a really bad eating disorder. She was so thin, but

eating disorder. She was so thin, but she gave the most. She was so affirming like about every everyone that was there. she was giving the most

there. she was giving the most compliments and she was checking to see if people would eat and stuff like trying to get them to eat. It's a sad thing, you know, it's a shocking

thing.

Um, and I feel like when I saw that, I was just left in a state of confusion cuz like how can someone be suffering so

much but still have that empathy to them that selflessness? I couldn't and I still

selflessness? I couldn't and I still don't understand it. Even when thinking about myself, I don't understand how I

can be so selfish and selfless at the same time because depress all of it every me all the mental health disorders

addiction it's they're selfish diseases like people will never don't like to say this but the act of suicide is selfish it's so selfish and you know I'm careful

about who I say that to because you know some people you get offended if they have loved ones that have dealt with suicide. But to

commit that act and leave people and affect people the way you're going to affect them is just really really

selfish and I can say that having experienced that feeling which happened recently. Actually, like I said, the

recently. Actually, like I said, the most recent depression was actually not about attention for the first time ever in my

life. It was I experienced the feeling

life. It was I experienced the feeling of like true selfishness and I'm still trying to shake that feeling off. It's

going to take a while to recover from that. Like realizing that you're

that. Like realizing that you're capable of doing something like that is a scary thing.

And it's confusing. It's really

confusing. And I think it was even scarier when, you know, I had people that were scared for me and come talk to me. Specifically, I have um I'm

me. Specifically, I have um I'm Catholic. I don't really talk about my

Catholic. I don't really talk about my religion to other people, but I do believe in God. When I was going through that depression, I reached out to someone who was very strong in their

faith and was kind of asking questions about like if suicide was a sin. And you

know, he said it's a grave sin, something big enough to damn you to hell. And I knew something was really

hell. And I knew something was really wrong because hell didn't scare me. Like

going to hell didn't scare me, which my entire life I have been terrified of hell.

And it just didn't scare me. I didn't

care. I would rather I would rather go to hell than keep suffering like on this earth, which doesn't make any sense because hell you is eternal

suffering, you know? It's it's just such a contradiction, you know? It's like and I feel like that pretty much describes me like as a person just very contradictory

and like not knowing anything at all.

like thinking you know something and then the next day waking up and realizing that you were completely wrong and you don't know which is, you know, used to scare me a lot because I used to

be a person that needed a clear-cut answer and a plan. Now I'm trying to find comfort in the fact that I don't know anything. And it's been helping a lot

anything. And it's been helping a lot actually because I wake up now and I'm like, "Oh, well, you know, something could happen today that changes the course of my life, you know, in a

positive way." I like to think that

positive way." I like to think that hopefully not in a bad way, cuz that would really not be fun.

But once you can be okay with not knowing all the answers, cuz I feel like that was also putting me in a depression. You know, I would spend so

depression. You know, I would spend so much time stewing about, you know, my birth parents and like making up stories and like going down like rabbit holes in my mind about, you know, what happened

and why it happened the way it did and then my life now and like why I'm so [ __ ] up. Sometimes there isn't an answer and

up. Sometimes there isn't an answer and you have to learn to be okay with that.

I suspect that if you had your birth parents, mom and dad, they were married still together to this day and you were raised by them, you'd still be the same girl you are

now. Maybe I've spent a lot of time

now. Maybe I've spent a lot of time hoping that if they did raise me and I live with them that I wouldn't. But

you're right. I think it might be a biological thing at this point. I think

it is. Yeah, definitely a brain chemistry thing for sure because um we're all chemistry. Yeah, everything we do, everything about us is chemistry.

Our bodies are just flesh vessels. But

yeah, I don't know because even now like I have these moments of clarity even in darkness where I'm like so self-aware that all it will take is just for me to start changing my perspective. I I don't

think it's something that you need to change or fix.

I think it's something you need to enjoy and dig your heels in and just really accept that this is who you are.

I like that you said that to me because my entire life people have been telling me to fix it or finding a way to fix it like something is wrong. Oh, you should be happy. Look, you're beautiful and

be happy. Look, you're beautiful and you're healthy and you're you have everything to live for and all that kind of [ __ ] It's all [ __ ] Mhm. It's

all a bunch of [ __ ] cuz nothing anyone is going to say here's a winning lottery ticket.

Doesn't matter. None of it's going to change the way you are. And the way you are is wonderful and you have a gift and you should enjoy it. Thank

it. Thank you. Yeah, that definitely changes my

you. Yeah, that definitely changes my perspective a lot. And and your art I think is a huge part of all that because if you're not creating then it gets

really frustrating.

Yeah, maybe I will just be a starving artist. You don't have to be starving.

artist. You don't have to be starving.

You can be successful, too, but you can't possibly create the way someone like you can create if you're happy.

Yeah, it's so [ __ ] up.

Um, yeah, something to think about.

There's always a trade-off.

I had someone tell me once that you can be a dark person, but it doesn't mean, you know, you're miserable, right? Well, I'm curious to

miserable, right? Well, I'm curious to know your thoughts on that.

Like I'm pretty dark. Look at this project I'm doing. Yeah.

But if you act my ask my friends or family or anyone close to me if I'm a sad person, I'm I'm really not. I can

be. If I stop creating, I I start to get really dark. But if I stay

really dark. But if I stay busy, I have the best days of my life.

I've had some of the best days of my life in the last six years since I started this dark project. And

project. And that just makes my life richer and I love it and I keep learning and keep growing and keep hopefully helping other people and it's it's a wonderful way to

go through life.

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like maybe an issue I'm having right now is too much time. Too much time is terrible. Yeah.

time. Too much time is terrible. Yeah.

Too much time is the enemy of everything. Especially if your brain

everything. Especially if your brain chemistry is off. Yeah. cuz it's just time to

is off. Yeah. cuz it's just time to think, time to go, time to drive yourself crazy. That's why I stay so

yourself crazy. That's why I stay so unbelievably busy. Yeah. Here it is

unbelievably busy. Yeah. Here it is Sunday. I was working all morning and I

Sunday. I was working all morning and I rushed here to do this with you and I'm sure I'll be working all afternoon.

Yeah. After this. And by staying so busy, yes, you're prolific and hopefully you find some diamonds in there that make you look like you're you're a talented

artist, but it's really just through hard work that you end up creating.

I feel like I'm just curating the prolific work I do and I only only kind of post the ones that are worthwhile. So, it looks like I'm really

worthwhile. So, it looks like I'm really talented, but all it is is I'm working really hard.

I think I think too much about needing to have a plan, which is honestly why I

don't really believe in college because giving an 18-year-old four years to figure out what they want to do for the rest of their life is insane to me. It

is. I feel like create being creative is the only way for me honestly like writing specifically has

just helped me so much. And you know sometimes it's not always dark.

Sometimes it's just writing down random thoughts and stuff and like wanting to keep those thoughts. And they're more special if they're not dark actually

because it's like something to hold on to and to remember. Like just like I don't want to forget my bad times. I

also don't want to forget my good times.

I want to remember the good times. Then

again, that's just going back to learning how to balance the duality of life, which is something that I'll probably struggle with for a really long time because there's an inherent

unfairness to human duality. You know,

I'm a pretty big personal unfairness, but and I feel like that also eats me alive because a lot of I start thinking like, well, that wasn't fair. I have to

get even with someone or I have to figure out a way to make my life even somehow because that happened to me. But

it's not about that. It's not a game. I feel like I've thought that life

game. I feel like I've thought that life was a game for a really long time. A

game of like e equaleness. And it is to a some to a certain extent, but like more so when I was younger like it was like you

did this to me, so I'm going to do 10 times worse to you. That's not how it's supposed to be. That's immature to me. I

kind of got over that. But, you know, as you get older, it kind They say as you get older, your borderline gets better, which is interesting because I

actually don't really have most of the symptoms now. I feel like if I do, it's

symptoms now. I feel like if I do, it's more of an internal thing, like not really having an identity.

Um, and it's more so like depression leaning, like maybe major depression.

But when I was younger, I fa I had all of the criteria like abandonment, like just vi I was a vile person. I was so angry.

Um but yeah, I just felt like I witnessed a lot of things that I felt were unfair and it just stuck with me. You know, it stuck that

mentality like well everything has to be fair now. You know, I I or I have to do

fair now. You know, I I or I have to do everything I can now to help that person because their life has been so unfair for them. And that's also gotten me in

for them. And that's also gotten me in trouble because then you spend so much I spend so much time, you know, trying to help save someone else and then

meanwhile I'm dying. That's right. It's

just a constant cycle. I've had people abuse that type

cycle. I've had people abuse that type of empathy that I have with me. And then

that even becomes an even sicker cycle because now you're attached to each other and you can't let each other go and you're reliant on each other. Like

if I stop taking care of you or you stop taking care of me, we're going to both be miserable. But that's not love. You

be miserable. But that's not love. You

know, love is not attachment. Attachment

can feel like love, even if it's bad.

But they're very different. I feel like I've experienced love maybe a couple times, but the other times it's been severe attachment and like even when it

wasn't good, you know, it's like because I couldn't be alone, I would rather be with someone that, you know,

isn't good for me or makes me sad.

How old are you? I'm 23. 23. Did you go to college? A little bit. Yeah. my my

to college? A little bit. Yeah. my my

oldest daughter who just graduated, she was kind of panicked of like what am I going to do and like you know now I have to get a job and you know that becomes scary and I just she I

I recognize that she's got a very similar personality to me personality to me and I am just encouraging her just do something creative because that's going to deal

that's going to help you with your depression more than anything else will and getting a job and working for some boss and you're going to be ultimately miserable in a matter

of months or years. Mhm. Is not the answer for creative people. Yeah. I

think it's just digging into your creativity and that'll help you with your your depression more than anything.

I think so too. I think a lot of people don't

too. I think a lot of people don't understand that because I've seen people say like a lot of the times if mentally

you're in a sick spot, I call my depression getting really sick. So if I say that, that's what I mean. If

mentally you're sick, it's going to be 10 times harder to reach your goal. I I don't know if that's true

goal. I I don't know if that's true anymore after talking to you.

And what's weird is that made sense to me, but now kind of I feel a little bit differently. I feel like there's a

differently. I feel like there's a correct way now. Or maybe there's no correct way. Here I am again, you know,

correct way. Here I am again, you know, trying to do things the right way, a specific way. I feel like I've always

specific way. I feel like I've always been like that and it's done nothing but hinder me. Everything in life is a

hinder me. Everything in life is a blessing and a curse at the same time.

Mhm. And being happy, being upbeat, and being a cheery person is a blessing for sure, but it's also a curse in other ways. And being depressed, being a

ways. And being depressed, being a downer is a curse, and it's definitely a blessing at the same time. And if you don't understand that, then you're just going to fight against the undertoe

forever. Trying to figure out why you're

forever. Trying to figure out why you're depressed or why you're unable to be a a deep artist, you know, whatever whatever the

word is for that. But people who are very happy have a hard time being super creative or creating important work or whatever you want to call it. Mhm. You you almost

need that depressive mindset in order to create important work. I feel like that's another part of the attachment,

the inspiration it brings.

Have you seen the movie Saw? I think I did. How do you know what it's about?

did. How do you know what it's about?

It's like one of those horror movies, right? Yeah. But basically the whole

right? Yeah. But basically the whole point of it is he brings people he puts people in these really stressful situations, these traps. Do you know? He puts them in

traps. Do you know? He puts them in traps that are going to kill them in a specific amount of time unless they find a way to get out of it. And the pe the the people that get out of it, the

purpose of putting them in them is so that they can almost die, but not and that's supposed to make them appreciate life. I actually drew a lot of

life. I actually drew a lot of inspiration from Saul because of Well, yeah, I relate to that. Should I? No,

because it's so [ __ ] up and it's like evil. But I relate to his mentality kind

evil. But I relate to his mentality kind of.

No, but I I think you should embrace the the darkness that you feel. Yeah. Rather

than being horrified by it and trying to fix it. You'll you'll spend the rest of

fix it. You'll you'll spend the rest of your life trying to fix it and you won't really make any progress. That's

interesting.

All your favorite artists had the same mindset you did.

H. It's interesting to think about cuz like I mentioned before, my whole life people have trying been trying to told me I needed to fix it. You know,

something was really wrong. Well, let's

fix it. Like, let's make it go away.

I've never even thought about the possibility of leaning into it.

But if I did, it would maybe be a different approach to what I've been doing. Cuz I have been leaning into it,

doing. Cuz I have been leaning into it, but maybe in an unhealthy way because I haven't been really writing that much. I

haven't been focusing on my creativity.

I've pretty much just been so introspective to the point of no return that I'm driving myself crazy. And when I'm doing that, I

myself crazy. And when I'm doing that, I should at least be writing something down. You know, there's has to be a

down. You know, there's has to be a lesson to learn from it. That's another

thing. I can't think that this pain is all for nothing. I can't which is a part of the reason why I do believe in God because you know in the Catholic church

they say there is life after death. And

the the existence of salvation and redemption brings me a lot of comfort. a

lot of comfort as it does to many people. I don't know why it brings me so

people. I don't know why it brings me so much comfort because I've haven't done really anything wrong, you know,

that it's more just a feeling like I've done so much wrong in this life. Like I

I can't that the idea of being saved in a way and being forgiven is very very is something I've never really had. Like people tell me

they forgive me and stuff, but I never believe it. Going back to what I said,

believe it. Going back to what I said, people tell me they love me and they need me and like that I'm special. I

don't believe that about myself. And in a way that's kind of

myself. And in a way that's kind of reality cuz like technically we're all kind of but that kind of thinking is going to motivate

you to create more important work. It

just is. When I was in my 20s, especially my second half of my 20s, I was seeing a therapist twice a week and we were just we'd had our meetings and we would talk and and just kind of like

hash things out. And then I finally realized probably right around 30 or some early 30s that rather than, you know, looking at

the fact that I like to work too much or so much as being a problem, I'm going to do the opposite. Cuz all my favorite artists did the exact opposite. They

were just so immersed in their in their work and their cocaine and their dysfunction, but their prolific, beautiful work they created was all part

of the same package. And I just wanted to embrace it rather than fight against it and see it as a problem. Let's see it as a gift. So I told him that I don't want to see him anymore. I'm going to stop coming in. He goes, "Well, we

should talk about it next Thursday." And

I'm like, "No, I'm not I'm telling you I'm not coming in." He's, "Well, well, we'll talk about it next time." And I'm like, "I'm just telling you you can do with do what you like with this information, but I am not going to see you any longer." Cuz I waste half an

hour driving here, an hour of my evening talking about it, and another half hour driving back. That's two hours that I

driving back. That's two hours that I could be working. Twice a week, we do this. And I'm not going to do it

this. And I'm not going to do it anymore. And that was the best decision

anymore. And that was the best decision I ever made. And I've been a work a [ __ ] holic ever since. And that was the best best decision I ever made.

Cured my depression. Never had another depressed day again after that. I mean,

I did, but I knew how to fix it quickly if I if I wanted to. Sometimes you want to just wallow in your depression if you break up with somebody that you care about and all that kind of stuff.

But in general, being creative almost to a fault and like like really obsess really just devoting your life to it is a is to me a cure for for

the depression. Mhm. Goes

the depression. Mhm. Goes

away. You you could you could if you like it, you can stop working and you'll it'll come right back. It'll rise right up like a like water. You all of a sudden you'll be up to your up to your

nose in uh in it. But if you keep working, you kind of stay focused and driven and motivated

and the depression kind of subsides for me. Yeah. I feel

for me. Yeah. I feel

like that's purpose. That's like giving yourself a purpose. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And if you don't have that, then sure, you're going to be depressed.

Yeah, I feel like that's what I've been dealing with.

And what's interesting about humans is we're all different. Some of us are wired differently where they're cheery and upbeat and and helpful and beautiful, wonderful, warm people. Mhm.

You you are not and I am not. But we

have other qualities that are that are just as valuable. Exactly. And other

people are leaders and other people are, you know, we all have different strengths. Yeah. And weaknesses at the

strengths. Yeah. And weaknesses at the same time. If you don't understand that

same time. If you don't understand that we all have strengths and weaknesses, you're just not getting it. You're not

understanding how life works. I think

Yeah. I feel like people maybe aren't aware of that sometimes. For sure. It's

goes especially depressed people. Yeah.

to um the book I was reading was called classic philosophical questions and I stupidly forgot to bring

it here but um one of the chapters that I was reading was discussing like are humans always

selfish? And I started like I went into

selfish? And I started like I went into it not knowing the answer, but I kind of thought at first the what I first thought was well first I need to just

define altruism like what it what altruism truly means and if I decided on a definition then I can determine if it truly exists. And I started having a

truly exists. And I started having a debate with my mom and I said, "Well, I've come to the conclusion that humans are always selfish and we act every

action that we commit is in our own self-inter best self-interest." And she was like, "Why do you think that?" And I pro then went on to provide her like the definition of altruism that I felt

comfortable using. And I was like, "I

comfortable using. And I was like, "I don't think this exists." And she texted me, "Well, that's very pessimistic. you

know, you shouldn't you shouldn't question other people's motives. I was

like I just couldn't seem to frame it in any other way. Yeah, but people don't understand anagram fours. Yeah, you're

an anagram four as am I. I'm a three and a four, which the three part saves me.

But that thinking most people will not understand. Mhm. And you live to be

understand. Mhm. And you live to be misunderstood. You enjoy it. Yeah. So,

misunderstood. You enjoy it. Yeah. So,

you just have to enjoy it and dig your dig your heels in and just be misunderstood and you'll you'll love it. Yeah. It's really the way to be

love it. Yeah. It's really the way to be for people like you and me. I've always wanted to not be misunderstood. I've always wanted to fit

misunderstood. I've always wanted to fit in. I've always wanted No, you don't. In

in. I've always wanted No, you don't. In

the past, when I was a kid, yeah, I wanted that more than anything. I wanted

to fit I would I did everything and anything I could to fit in.

really truly I did. But it never worked.

And the more the harder I tried, the more I pushed people away because then like you know I would the

depression would come and I would not be able to act like I was able to fit in and it would be like whoa like to other people like who wa something she's weird like something's really wrong with her.

And that just made me even more upset because all I wanted was to belong somewhere, you know? I I never felt like I belonged any No, I know. I know the feeling. Yeah. You you want to be loved

feeling. Yeah. You you want to be loved and accepted in one of the group, but you also kind of don't. Yeah. That that

I don't want to be accepted kind of came later in my life. That realization that, hey, maybe I waste a lot of Yeah. As you

get as you get older, you will feel more and more like that. Mhm. You're you're

still young. Yeah. Like when I was You're 23. When I was 23, I didn't know

You're 23. When I was 23, I didn't know any of this [ __ ] I was just like I was just young and stupid. Yeah. In my late 20s, I started figuring it out.

And by the 30s, I was like, "All right, now I'm starting to see that maybe I'm not so broken." Yeah.

The anagram helped me a lot with that.

The what? Any I'll give you a book when we're done. Um, yeah.

we're done. Um, yeah.

that brokenness. I cry about it a lot to be

brokenness. I cry about it a lot to be honest. I've been seeing it as a really

honest. I've been seeing it as a really negative thing for you can also see it as a wonderful gift.

Yeah. Like I said, like all these all these thought processes that I've been having, you know, they don't have to be so harmful to my own self. They don't

have to be some like thing that's going to stop me in my tracks and ruin my life for a whole month and, you know, cause me to lose my job when I don't show up

or cause me to, you know, not talk to anyone and like sleep 18 hours a day. They don't have to be so harmful. Like in a way

harmful. Like in a way that's making myself more miserable, which again I admitted earlier, I am attached to misery because I think it

breeds something that other people don't have. For sure it is. Yeah. But it

have. For sure it is. Yeah. But it

doesn't have to be so black and white, you know? It's I

feel like my depression recently has been like so like I'm either going to stay depressed or I'm not going to be

depressed. Like it's there is no middle

depressed. Like it's there is no middle ground, you know, and like you said, changing it to thinking, you know, it's a gift, you know, will definitely help.

But it's like I I think in black and white, you know, I think it's either this or that.

And if it's not this or that, then I get really overwhelmed and I get scared.

Mhm. But earlier I mentioned that I'm trying to find comfort in the fact that I don't know anything at all, which is weird because you're probably a four anagram four and a five. I'm a three and a four, which which it's it's

interesting. When when you start reading

interesting. When when you start reading it, you'll see. Okay.

Um, but then like I say that, but then I have all these insecurities and all these conflict thoughts that completely

conflict that. And here I am again, you

conflict that. And here I am again, you know, making myself go crazy because I'm like, well, I I am self-aware of this, but why am I still doing this? Like I

can stop doing this, but I don't want to stop because I like it and it feels good and it's weirdly euphoric and I never want to stop. You know, it's like an obsess. It's a sick obsession. You get

obsess. It's a sick obsession. You get

it. You get it. Yeah.

And it's a great thing. It's not a fault. It's a wonderful gift.

fault. It's a wonderful gift.

Maybe I don't think anyone sees it like that in my life. No, there there are some great great artists, probably a lot of people's favorite artists who had

this kind of thinking. Mhm. And this

kind of mindset.

Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. For now,

I'm just like existing. I did come out of that dark depression because again I started to get into this headsp space of what if and I was prescribed a pretty

hefty dose of wellbutrin which I don't really like medicine actually. I don't either. I hate it. I

actually. I don't either. I hate it. I

think it's [ __ ] and I think it's poison.

And I think that if someone's brain chemistry is the way it is, it should be that way and we can figure out ways to deal with it naturally. I did. Yeah. I

was super depressed in my late 20s. I

mean, I've been on so much medication.

Like, I felt like a sociopath. I really

did. Like, the last episode of self harm that I had. Wasn't for attention.

Actually, it was some weird [ __ ] up like I'm so numb. Like, I want to see if this affects me, you know? Was that the right decision to do? No. But it had

gotten to a point where like nothing I I couldn't feel anything. Like

there would be times when something bad would happen and I would need to cry cuz I know that crying is cathartic and I knew that would help me. So I'd sit down in my room like this and I would play a

sad song and I would try to get it out and I probably looked like a crazy person cuz I was like making all these crying noises but I couldn't get

anything out. And that probably drove me

anything out. And that probably drove me more crazy than like not being on medicine.

I really did feel like a sociopath. Like

it was very strange. All my empathy went away. Like I was very

away. Like I was very mute and I don't know. It's strange

strange feeling. But I'm glad I got to experience that cuz it just made me think what if like number one it made me scared that I was going to be like that all the time if I

was on that medicine. And so I immediately cold turkeyed it, which I do that a lot. I will jump off my medicine without saying anything to anyone just to, you know, feel what I feel like

naturally. You could be an anagram 7 and

naturally. You could be an anagram 7 and never ever ever feel that. Yeah. And

that would be really sad. Yeah. Exactly.

I think it's fun. I think it's an adventure. Even when I feel really bad

adventure. Even when I feel really bad and get in really dark places, but everyone else seems to get mad at me.

They're like, "Take your medicine. Do

this. Do that. It's helping you." But

sometimes I just really need a feel. I

need to feel what it feels like to actually shed tears that are real. I

need to feel like what it feels like to be so uncomfortable uncomfortable in my body. I want to rip my skin off. I need

body. I want to rip my skin off. I need

to feel like how I'm supposed to be. I feel like so much so much of my life has been

trying to mask that, you know, and a lot of people if you if someone ends up seeing that, they won't understand that.

It's it's like almost being like an adrenaline junkie. Yeah. Cuz when you

adrenaline junkie. Yeah. Cuz when you get in those states, even like high anxiety states, like the hormones that you release, I think it's like nut and epinephrine or something, it like will

speed up your heart and it will release so much adrenaline. That's an adventure. I mean,

adrenaline. That's an adventure. I mean,

it feels really bad and I'll like start rocking myself back and forth to try to calm myself down and put myself to sleep. But I mean, when it's over, I'm

sleep. But I mean, when it's over, I'm like, whoa, that was weird, you know? But I don't think there's anything

know? But I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I think I think you're just an anagram four and a five. And

that's a like none of the anagram types are any better or any worse than any others. They're all just different. And

others. They're all just different. And

we're all different. And if you read about it, you'd understand it. You see

like, oh my god, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm just dark a lot of the

with me. I'm just dark a lot of the time. And with that darkness comes a lot

time. And with that darkness comes a lot of depth of feeling and insight that a lot of other people don't have. Yeah.

And you see the world just very differently than a lot of people do. And if you're not an artist, it'll it'll it'll become a problem. Yeah. But if you can create,

problem. Yeah. But if you can create, whether it's writing or painting or a million, you know, you can choose your art form, but if you're not creating, it

gets really frustrating. Yeah. And dark.

It does. And the depressing the the depression gets overwhelming. Yeah.

Sorry I'm smiling. Even though we're talking about dark stuff. Yeah. No, I

mean that's I I I guarantee if if you looked at when we're done when you're flying back to Dallas.

Dallas. Yeah. When you're flying back to Texas, write down 10 of your favorite artists and I'll bet you seven of them are Oh, they all killed themselves. They

all [ __ ] killed themselves. Yeah,

that's what I'm saying. All of them. I'm

not saying you should kill yourself. I'm

not saying that. Yeah. Because if you manage this correctly or well and stay away from drugs as an escape, then your life becomes richer.

I actually really don't like drugs. I'm

No, I've never smoked pot. I never done anything. Yeah, I don't I quit. I used

anything. Yeah, I don't I quit. I used

to smoke a lot of pot.

It It doesn't help. Yeah, it made it 10 times worse. And also drinking I'm just

times worse. And also drinking I'm just a big taste person, so I don't like forcing myself to drink something that tastes bad. Um, but yeah, sobriety is

tastes bad. Um, but yeah, sobriety is like interesting. I'd rather be sober

like interesting. I'd rather be sober experiencing what I'm experiencing than on drugs because it feels more like real

to me and I like the reality of that.

Like it's almost like I look forward to it in my own sick way. Like, oh, that was dark. Like, next

way. Like, oh, that was dark. Like, next

time will it be even darker? And it like makes me happy in a weird [ __ ] up way.

Do you think you'll never meet anybody because of your like because you're like this?

Do you ever have those thoughts?

I don't really think about that. Good.

All I'm where I was leading with this is that you will because there are people like me who like I there was a time in my life and it was pretty much that way up until just recently where I didn't

think I could ever be romantically attracted to anyone who wasn't a four really who wasn't an anagram four cuz fours are have always been my thing.

Yeah. Ever since I was a little kid and now I think I'm healthier mentally than I ever have and now I can appreciate other types too. Yeah. But there are people who just think you are the [ __ ]

and there's nobody other than you that could work for them. Telling I'm telling you this. Interesting. Yeah. When when

you this. Interesting. Yeah. When when

it comes to like love, I'm not concerned about it right now because I think I need to think about what that means and how to do it properly. Yeah,

that's that's a good way to look at it.

Yeah, cuz in the past I I have had really bad anger issues. It's all right.

You're human. Yeah, it's not fair. Um, yeah, love is interesting. I

fair. Um, yeah, love is interesting. I

had maybe an okay example of love when I was younger. You had one. Yeah, that's

younger. You had one. Yeah, that's

great. That's the most important thing for a kid. Yeah. To see. At least I'm at the point where I believe it exists.

I feel like at a certain point though, those feelings of like, you know, euphoria and like, oh, like this and that, we're going to do this and be so happy and

like it eventually all goes away though and it becomes a choice. It all goes to crap. Well, it just be it's like you get

crap. Well, it just be it's like you get used to it. You get comfortable. You get

and it becomes a choice to remain loyal to that person. I honestly don't know if I ever see myself getting married. I'm

I have would have to think about that. I

think it would have to be a complete weirdo person. Oh, for sure it would be.

weirdo person. Oh, for sure it would be.

For sure it would be.

Yeah, that's far away.

I think you're wonderful. Thank you. I

don't think there's anything wrong with you. I just think you just need to

you. I just think you just need to figure out who you are. Yeah. And I have a book that can help you do that. Yeah.

If I could, I would just write, I guess, all the time. That's what I do. Yeah,

that's all I do seven days a week.

Problem is I need money so I have to work cuz I need to eat and drink water.

No, but there there are artists who make can actually make money. Especially in

this new world, you can actually do that. Yeah. The world has changed a lot

that. Yeah. The world has changed a lot in the last in a bad way. In some good ways. I just hate phones. Phones are

ways. I just hate phones. Phones are

awful. Yeah. But everything is like for everything that happens in the world, everything that every person, everything, every change, there's a good aspect and a bad aspect to it and you

just have to adapt. Yeah. It's funny.

I'm big on Reddit and I saw a comment that made me laugh so hard. I was

actually in the depression, like the the sickening depression, and I really appreciated that comment because it it made me smile for the first time in like a couple weeks. Someone commented like,

"Do you think Britney Spears is um crazy?" And the thread was about, "I'm

crazy?" And the thread was about, "I'm schizophrenic. Ask me anything." And she

schizophrenic. Ask me anything." And she commented, "No, I think she's not crazy.

She's just adjusting to society." And

that just made me smile so hard because like I just related to it like, "Yeah, I'm not crazy. I'm just adjusting to society just like we all are. And that's

going to go on forever until we die."

That's right. You know, we're always going to have to be adapting. Am I the best at adopting? No. I freak out all the time. And no, I don't want to ever

the time. And no, I don't want to ever have to adapt. Yeah. But when I did, when technology changed photography drastically 10, 20 years ago, I was lost for a few years there.

Really depressed and lost and scared.

And then I figured out how to adapt. And

now I'm better than ever. And it I'm sure something will change in the next year or three that I'll have to adapt again. And I could be left behind or I

again. And I could be left behind or I could change with the times.

And that's what we all have to do.

Yeah. I feel like that's the most natural thing about humanity is that we're constantly changing and evolving.

Like I feel like to be static is not constructive, you know, just unwilling to

ride the the wave that life is evolving, you know, and adjust. There's a certain resilience that people have that have been through dark times

that although it might feel so chaotic and so bad, if you have that resilience in you, you will always be okay. You

always will. There have been so many times where people I know that I'm very close to, including and even myself, I feel

like I'm never going to be okay. This

depression is going to last forever.

like I'm I'm never going to get out of this mindset. And then the next day I

this mindset. And then the next day I just wake up and I'm like, "Oh, I'm fine." You know, it's crazy. You are

fine." You know, it's crazy. You are

fine. Yeah. What does your tattoo say on your left arm? It's a Virgin Mary.

Oh my. Yeah. I hate all my tattoos. I

got them like when I was 18. I like the long line on your arm. People say that.

Some people hate it a lot. They're like,

"Why'd you get that? I love the simplicity of it." Oh, thanks. Yeah. in

the 444 in your chest. Mhm. What is

that? I don't know. I saw it on Pinterest.

Which actually, funny enough, apparently this sequence of fours is like a really bad omen in Chinese culture. And I didn't I didn't do any

culture. And I didn't I didn't do any research cuz I was stupid and 18 years old. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to go get

old. I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to go get a tattoo." Like, and I got this. And

a tattoo." Like, and I got this. And

then like I'm kind of like into like the universe like well you're an anagram 4 so maybe it's maybe there's meaning to

it. The universe will tell you things

it. The universe will tell you things like and like certain sequences and like certain patterns can like really affect your day-to-day life. So when I got this

all of a sudden like these weird things started happening to me that like were really bad and I was like what's going on? So, I researched like the 444

on? So, I researched like the 444 sequence that had just gotten t tattooed on me and I was like, "Oh, yeah. It's a

horrible omen in Chinese culture. Like,

it means bad luck." I was like, "Well, [ __ ] Now I'm just fucked." And I have this on me and I can't get it removed. Yeah. I'm going to get you one

removed. Yeah. I'm going to get you one of Richard Rizzo's books on the anagram and it'll change the way you see yourself. Yeah. That was a fun talk.

yourself. Yeah. That was a fun talk.

Yeah.

All right, Ella. Thank you so much. No

problem. And uh it'd be fun to get an update with with you in a couple years and see where you're at. Okay. Cool. I

think you're just doing just fine. Thank

you. All right. Thank you.

When I was designing the first soft underbelly book, I realized that there were so many great portraits that weren't going to make it into that book.

They just wouldn't fit.

And once I saw how well that first book sold, I knew I'd have to design a second book. This second book is finally ready

book. This second book is finally ready to ship. Like the first one, this book

to ship. Like the first one, this book has a collection of some of the best portraits from Softwite Underbelly accompanied by a quote from that person's interview. This book features another

interview. This book features another group of Rebecca portraits as well as a collection of color images of the Whitaker family and plenty of others.

You can order yours for $125 or $150 for a signed copy at softwadbelly.org. Again, like the first

softwadbelly.org. Again, like the first book, once this book is sold out, I will not be printing more of them. The

portraits are what Softwire Underbelly is all about, and these two books contain the best of all that work. Thank

you for watching.