Adam Neumann: This is How You Build Iconic Companies

You said, "Adam, tell me how you're doing." And I jumped straight into my

doing." And I jumped straight into my lessons learned and this had an answer.

And you were like, "Oh, you're still in that stage." And I was, and we don't

that stage." And I was, and we don't know each other, but I was like "Well Mark, please tell me what that stage is." He goes, "You know, the stage when

is." He goes, "You know, the stage when you forgot everything you did and believe everything that was written about you. It's a stage it will pass."

about you. It's a stage it will pass."

[Music] Adam, welcome to the Ben Mark Show. I'm

glad we have another head of hair on the podcast.

It's a very brave thing to say.

Uh we were just talking at lunch about how some entrepreneurs have many ideas but Adam, you have one idea that you've been refining over your life, just getting it better and better and better.

So, why don't we go back from the beginning and talk about uh your your background and how you can, you know find a thread to how that led to flow today. I was born in Israel and I my

today. I was born in Israel and I my parents got divorced when I was eight.

My parents are both doctors and we moved 13 times in my childhood. So I remember moving from community to community from place to place. And what what what generated all the moves? First of all, I

think in Israel being a doctor cuz such a small place, you got a fellow in one place, you study in one place, you fellow in another, then you go from there, you go you go from one thing to the other. So I think that generated

the other. So I think that generated about three of them. Then my parents divorce generated another one. I think

my mother could not stand to be in the same country as my dad at least for two years which actually pushed us which not a lot of people know about it. I lived

in Indiana Indianapolis. I was a Hooser for two years. I went to Pacers games and saw the Indie 500 and learned about the 3S's. So that those were some of the

the 3S's. So that those were some of the moves. But the other one my mom and

moves. But the other one my mom and she's actually comfortable speaking about it. She's a she's bipolar and

about it. She's a she's bipolar and she's an oncologist and she's very good at her craft. But as being an ocologist and also having the mood swings, she

would fight very hard for her patients.

And no matter what happened, if you were my mom's patient, she would go to war including with the head of the hospital to uh to fight for you. And Israel has this medical basket and not everything is included and some people could afford

things, some people couldn't. And she

was always finding a way to get people the best treatment she could. But

because she was such an excellent doctor, whenever one head of hospital had enough with her, there was always two other heads of hospital ready to recruit, which is something we know about great talent. Great talent always

finds a home. So that was a I think that led to a lot of those moves. But for me as a kid, I think for kids, moving is a very difficult thing. I think it's good because I think it it makes us stronger

but also think it's difficult. And when

you enter a new community as a new kid you have no friends and you always find yourself looking who you going to be with. And I used to be attracted also

with. And I used to be attracted also they were the only ones who would have me to the uncool kids. So I was the ones who were a little different. And so I would get to a new place. I already knew my place. I would go immediately to the

my place. I would go immediately to the different kids. And my thing in life was

different kids. And my thing in life was I would befriend them. We would become great friends. Then I would make my way

great friends. Then I would make my way into the social structure of whatever community I went to and I would bring with me those kids. That was my big winning moment. The toughest community I

winning moment. The toughest community I ever went to was when I lived in the kibuts. And for those of you who don't

kibuts. And for those of you who don't know, and that's also where I live the most. And a kibbutz is where it's almost

most. And a kibbutz is where it's almost like a commune. The kids live together from in our kibbutz they they stopped it, but a lot of them live together from age two to like 18. They go to their parents for dinners and they spend their

weekends, but they're all more kids than not kids. And they were so tightly put

not kids. And they were so tightly put together that I was the hardest group to connect to. But also, I think the place

connect to. But also, I think the place that affected me the most sort of shaped me with what I think about community and about together. And once you do become

about together. And once you do become part of that community, my mom was a we said a doctor. She would come home very late at night. She would be on call sometimes. There was a whole community

sometimes. There was a whole community taking care of my sister and I.

Wow. And then so what did you know as you kind of um grew up and got into the world and so forth like what did those early

experiences teach you about community living? how people uh kind of

community living? how people uh kind of exist together that led to the vision that's you know kind of started as we

work and then uh is now flow.

So first of all I think there are multiple kinds of communities. They're

great communities when a group of people gets together to build something greater than themselves and then there are communities which we've seen I think more and more of where there you get to a mob mentality and sometime that moment mentality actually balances to the

lowest common denominator. Yeah. Luckily

enough the kibuts and the communities I was experiencing were actually the kind where people come together to do something greater and it really made me feel that there is

more happiness more fulfillment more things to do. It's a better way of living when you're surrounded by other people, especially for me because my childhood was difficult. So, we said about my mom. So, she would take amazing

care of her patients. But I think by 8:00 p.m. and it was a very long day and

8:00 p.m. and it was a very long day and she would come home and my sister and I we only had one chore. We just had to wash the dishes. Yeah. We never did. We

never did one thing. He just wanted us to come because I felt cuz I used to walk my sister home from school and I would make the meal and I did a lot of other things that were important but they weren't considered a chore. The

chore was you wash the dishes and my mom would come home and the dishes weren't washed and many times those dishes would start flying and a lot of times end on the floor or everywhere actually in the

house. So that was a that was very

house. So that was a that was very extreme as a kid and I remember the day once my mom we didn't have a lot of money also growing up and doctors in Israel come from Israel as a social

medical system and uh so doctors don't earn a lot at all. So we always I remember living growing up it was always either we were at zero or in overdraft.

So, I grew in my life that where you're negative or you can make it back to zero. And when you don't make it back to

zero. And when you don't make it back to zero enough times, you get a call from the bank and then you call grandma and grandma helps a little bit and then things go back to zero and down to negative. Yeah. And I remember one time

negative. Yeah. And I remember one time where my mom bought this new set of dishes and she comes home and again the same fight and she starts throwing the dishes but my sister noticed not the

ones she just bought only the other ones which started telling us that there was some method method to the to the matters and uh so so it was it was very

difficult back then and then living in a community always made it better and no matter what happened at home no matter how tough the night was the next morning everything was Okay. And there were neighbors and they heard and things

happened. Always people were looking out

happened. Always people were looking out for us. I also remember and and we were

for us. I also remember and and we were just at at your father's memorial on Sunday, which which was very moving and I learned a lot about him. And you know

you said the Mark Twain quote there. I

think you said something like when I was 14, I thought my father didn't know anything and by the time I became 21, he learned so much. Yeah.

I think for me I could really relate to that because as a kid I was I always focused about the fact that my mom was so difficult with us but as I got older and started have I'm married today with six kids and and started having my own

kids and realize how difficult it is when everything is great and you have access to you have access to everything and can get very difficult. I realized

that for my mom to be a single mom, a doctor, dealing with my personality which now I see it in my kids, which must have not been easy because there's certain qualities, a lot of personality

to deal with. I I I actually think that in hindsight, what I thought was a challenge was actually exactly what made me who I am today. I think as I was building businesses, it was never tougher than when I was a kid. So there

was nothing that could happen that was that bad. Yeah. And I think sort of the

that bad. Yeah. And I think sort of the my whole because I do want to make a difference in the world and I do want to make it a better place. I think comes from her and from how she took care of

all those patients. And in hindsight, I love the childhood that we had. So all

of that led me to the Israeli army.

Yeah. Where I became a Navy officer where anybody who knew me would have never guessed because you need a lot of discipline. And I think something nice

discipline. And I think something nice about going to the army, it forces discipline. Yeah. Cuz either you're

discipline. Yeah. Cuz either you're going to be disciplined or you're going to be in trouble. Yeah. So the big punishment in the Israeli army at the beginning is you don't get to go home on the weekend because Israel is so small.

Most to the US you serve in the navy you're serving you're very far away from home. You come home every three months

home. You come home every three months every year. In Israel the furthest you

every year. In Israel the furthest you could go is 4 hours. My Navy base was an hour from home. So uh you get to go on the weekends for 24 hours. You go home.

It's an amazing thing. And you're

supposed to rest but no one rests. You

go out you party. It's a great 24 hours.

And for the first nine months every week I would get punished. I couldn't make it. I don't no matter by the time I gave

it. I don't no matter by the time I gave up I was like the week would start the commander would walk and say Adam you have Shabbat meaning you're not leaving and then the week would start and and it took me nine months actually someone

told me very smart officer told me he said look Adam I think you can do great things when you grow up but you can't be a great leader if you don't know how to be a soldier well you know that's true

for CEOs too like unless you learn how to be a great employee employee like some way somehow it's hard to be a great CEO and I think it's true for partnerships.

Yeah. Unless you learn the same thing about partnerships. Unless you really

about partnerships. Unless you really learn how to be a great partner then you're never going to make things work.

Yeah. And and it really stuck with me and he said the Navy officer course in Israel is two years. Said you only need two. Not even a soldier. You're a cadet.

two. Not even a soldier. You're a cadet.

You just need to make it for two years.

And I did. And I credit a lot of my ability to get things done no matter how complicated they are. understand how to work in a team, understand leadership but there's natural leadership that we're born with, but there's things we

learn. All of that came together and

learn. All of that came together and sort of made it made made me who I am.

And then I moved to the US 4 days after I finished the army. My sister was a supermodel living in New York City. The

family said, "Adam, go check on your sister. Let's see what's happening

sister. Let's see what's happening there." Cuz no one knew. She was my

there." Cuz no one knew. She was my younger sister. Yeah. No one knew what

younger sister. Yeah. No one knew what was happening there. So I I flew to New York and we lived together. And for the next six years, I lived with Ad. I also

for the first four years went to CUNI Baru College City University of New York and for me going and I know it's not an Ivy League school but for me going to school was very easy because again

compared to the army it was really there wasn't any tasks there that were we were going to be given that was so hard and then I think one more thing that sort of shaped me is growing up I I am still extremely dyslexic you guys know because

I sent my text I have not I'm soon start using AI to send my text but I don't I don't So a lot of spelling mistakes. Yeah. And

um I couldn't read until I was in the third grade. So that being being

third grade. So that being being dyslexic always throughout my life forced me to learn how to deal with things. Dealing communities really

things. Dealing communities really shaped me. And going to the army taught

shaped me. And going to the army taught me how to be soldier and then how to be a leader. Then when I brought all of

a leader. Then when I brought all of that back and came to the US, it's things seemed very doable. Yeah.

Everything was possible. And I think what I like about this country so much is I think that's the American dream.

Coming as an immigrant from a different country, a a kid that in school couldn't even necessarily read or write and had to always work out a system of how to get something done and coming here

having an idea, building a business failing multiple businesses, then building a bigger business. Yeah. Maybe

not succeeding as much as we wanted to then building another business. Yes. And

and and I think that second chance that concept of anything can happen. That

concept I heard it a lot again in the memorial on Sunday. That concept of a country where we are all have have the ability to achieve what we can what we can and be we can be. That is for me what the American dream is and that's

why I'm so proud to be here. Yeah. There

are a bunch of super high-profile very successful people in modern American life who were dyslexic as kids. Um who

really struggled with dyslexia as kids.

Like what what what what is what connection is there? like what what is the thing? What is the experience?

the thing? What is the experience?

What's the strength that goes with the difficulty? So, first I think you get

difficulty? So, first I think you get very good at hiding it. So, my parents we said were both doctors.

Second grade parents getting divorced grandmother is taking me out to lunch just cuz she wants to see how I'm doing.

Hands over the menu and says, "Please order." And takes her exactly 20 seconds

order." And takes her exactly 20 seconds to realize the kid can't read. Walk

marches me to the principal's office.

She was a lawyer. What kind of school are you building here? My grandson can't read. This is horrible. And he looks at

read. This is horrible. And he looks at her, he says, I actually know your grandson. He comes here two to three

grandson. He comes here two to three times a week. We know each other well and he's going to be just fine. He's

going to have one person reading for him and another person writing for him, and he could do anything he wants. So, at

the beginning, I think being dyslexic you learn how to mask it, and you learn how to you have to use your ears and your listening. Especially my dyslexia

your listening. Especially my dyslexia was both in numbers and in letters. So

on the heavier side of dyslexia and you really learn how to deal with finding solutions. You get

embarrassed I think a lot at a young age. It's very embarrassing when

age. It's very embarrassing when everybody else can read and you can't.

You must make friends because if you don't make friends who's going to help you study for the test. And so I think I think it's I think those are the beginning. It teaches you that there's

beginning. It teaches you that there's always a solution and it 100% teaches you to think outside of the box.

Whatever solution everybody else has it's not going to work for me. Mhm. So

now let's see what I can do. And I think it's changing today. I think something technology is doing. I think it's I have a lot of dyslexic friends now who keep everyone keeps calling me about how they're using AI to write stuff because

it's just they're they're not making mistakes anymore. Cuz my kind of

mistakes anymore. Cuz my kind of dyslexia even when you do the even if you need when you did dictate it to the phone, you still get special with my accent. You still get spelling mistakes

accent. You still get spelling mistakes and then you can't fix them. But when

you use chatp, you can actually get over that. Oh, okay. So it's just another

that. Oh, okay. So it's just another little use case that that works very well. Yeah, it's great. I think the

well. Yeah, it's great. I think the other thing having any disability does it makes you when you see someone else who's disabled and doesn't matter what kind of disability because for one thing each one of us has something that

bothers us and we think it's big for us but someone else might think it's not it makes you care or be very angry

or a little of both. Or a little of both. Tell us about when you had the

both. Tell us about when you had the threat of the idea that would you know when when one day they'd become flow.

You you're telling us off off camera about how at at your college you approached a professor with a with with an idea. So when I went to Baroo College

an idea. So when I went to Baroo College I joined the entrepreneur. I thought I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Didn't

really know what it is but I took entrepreneurship and I minored in marketing and one more thing with studies and no no studies. That's from my

father. Yeah.

father. Yeah.

You'd already done Middle Eastern studies by that point. I I was already passed by. I did I did Middle Eastern

passed by. I did I did Middle Eastern studies. Applied Middle Eastern studies.

studies. Applied Middle Eastern studies.

But we've been we've been applying it ever since. I'm sure we're going to get

ever since. I'm sure we're going to get to it. Yes. And And there was a

to it. Yes. And And there was a competition and it was the first entrepreneurship competition, first prize $50,000 and a seed investment into that idea.

And I was sure I was going to win that competition. And I talked in the class

competition. And I talked in the class and I found the best. I found the best writer and whoever I thought the best teammates against something for my dyslexia. I was very used to finding the

dyslexia. I was very used to finding the best kids in class and we said we're going to win this and I had a huge idea and it was called concept living and concept living was going to be a new way

of living cuz I used to live in an apartment building with my sister and I was blown away by the fact that we would go up and down the elevator. This is New York City, 2002 to 2008

and right after September 11 and no one would say hello in the elevator and I just found that fascinating and I used to we used to play games and how we're going to say hello to enough people and

I would I thought I noticed that if you talk to enough people and brought them together the building's energy change and we presented this concept living and everybody except for us made it to the

second stage of the competition. every

single the stupidest ideas you've ever heard. My team was very disappointed in

heard. My team was very disappointed in me because I led us into a horrible idea. I marched into the dean of

idea. I marched into the dean of business office who I knew for other reasons. And I said to him, I get it. I

reasons. And I said to him, I get it. I

missed it. We're not going to go to the next stage, but you got to tell me why.

Cuz he was on the panel on the judges and he said, "Adam, the industry is too big. You're too young. And this is

big. You're too young. And this is unrealistic." Oh my god.

unrealistic." Oh my god.

And I think Ben, you were sharing before. I I don't think I'm the only one

before. I I don't think I'm the only one who's experienced that kind of Yeah.

Well, this is the story of Fred Smith and Federal Express. Um or what? He got

a C minus on the paper. So Fred Yeah. So

Fred Smith, the legendary founder of Federal Express, which is, you know was one of the great companies of the 20th century. Uh he went I think it was one

century. Uh he went I think it was one of the Ivy Ivy business school. Harvard

Harvard one of those. And um yeah, he the entrepreneur class. He wrote he wrote his paper on the idea for Federal Express and they and they gave him a C minus and it's a brilliant having the

hub in Memphis and how it would work.

Wasn't it just a C minus a C minus?

Well, just that final little Yeah. Yeah.

And because it was completely neat idea but totally impractical never work difference in that story. He goes right out and starts it. Yeah. Yeah. I wait 10 years. And I think I think there's I've

years. And I think I think there's I've always had a lesson from that. Like if

you're a dean of anything, if you're a teacher and you have a young student full of passion wanting to do something tell them how to achieve what it is they're going after, not why it's impossible cuz you never know who you

might be speaking to. Yeah. Great. So

that's so so that started I think then also you said something interesting about that which again for me the partnership with Mark and Ben is amazing separate from the fact from our business partnership is I learned a lot and I

enjoy the partnership and the friendship. You shared something about

friendship. You shared something about the fact that because people ask you about what ideas Adam has. It's always

been one idea. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well

that it was an earlier conversation um where uh I forgot the question Eric asked, but I was like, "No, Adam's only had one idea. This is the Oh, how you navigate

idea. This is the Oh, how you navigate the idea maze?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There

is no maze. This is it. Like he's he's been following this idea for, you know his whole life now. And so and and it's the thing that makes it so powerful in

that um he and I actually had a conversation with a potential investor the other day and they're like well how come somebody won't be able to replicate

the technology and my answer was you know the technology by itself is somewhat interesting but it's part of an

integrated vision that one per literally one person has and the thing that I would um The analogy for me has has kind of been Apple where if you look at Apple

kind of and what Steve Jobs did in particular when he built the product line there was no piece of software there was no piece of hardware there was

no nothing that wasn't already done like like all these ideas were done it was the integrated

um product line that you know with a design sensibility with a usab ability idea with the the way the technology worked with the person um was the thing

that made it so special and so hard to replicate and you know nobody was able to replicate that and I think that you know when you when we get into flow what

I see is it's a single idea about how people live that's enabled by design and technology and a business model and a culture and a whole set of things and if

you remove any one of them It's not flow. Um, you know, it's a Windows PC

flow. Um, you know, it's a Windows PC running Windows 95, whatever it was. You

know, it's that kind of thing. Well

we'll get deeper into flow, but first I want to make sure we cover the the the backstory here, which is Mark, why don't you talk about how how you met Adam or what you guys saw in Adam and then let's talk about how this partnership was

formed. Yeah. So, we didn't we didn't

formed. Yeah. So, we didn't we didn't actually we didn't we didn't really I don't think we ever really met, I don't think, prior to prior to uh that was the first phone call when I when I first called you. Um, and you know, and part

called you. Um, and you know, and part of it was a it was a Hatfield McCoy thing cuz he was with the Hatfields and we're the McCoys. Uh, he was a benchmark founder and we're Yeah, that those were the days

when we actually had a rivalry and we're we're across the street from those guys.

That's not that's not that's not our side of the street. So, um, we never really met, but you know, we we followed the whole saga, you know, all the way up and all the way up and all the way down and and, um, you know, we we noticed a whole whole bunch of things, uh, you know, kind of the the kind of went

through that, but we we we did notice right up front basically what what Ben just described, which was which was the integrated vision. Um, and then, uh, and

integrated vision. Um, and then, uh, and then I I told Adam this early on, I had a conversation with a guy who's a one of the top real estate people in the world.

Um, who, uh, is, um, you know, had, and this was actually in the middle of this is when things were starting to go, you know, pear-shaped at the time. Um, and I was like, you know, what do you think of this thing? And he's like, look, he

this thing? And he's like, look, he said, remember his direct quote, he said, there's only two people in the world who have ever successfully differentiated, uh, branded and differentiated commercial real estate.

And he said, one of them is currently president of the United States, the other is Adam Newman. Um, yeah, we thought we actually thought that was pretty cool, you know, like that

like what an achievement. And it was right at the time when every, you know newspaper was shellacking him and all that kind of thing. But

you know, the the thing we couldn't stop thinking about was like, wow, he's one of two. Yeah. One one of exactly two.

of two. Yeah. One one of exactly two.

And and what my friend what my my friend said was like, look, it's just like this business has been the way it's been forever, for hundreds, for hundreds of years, you know for as long as there have been commercial buildings. There's

been a certain specific way of doing it and we've all been trained in how to do it and it's all very specific way of operating. And you know, at the simplest

operating. And you know, at the simplest level, you know, we build a shell and then we lease it for 15 years and then the tenant does all the work on on you know, deciding what the what the interior is like, what the experience is like. Um I had had another actually it's

like. Um I had had another actually it's a digression. I had had another

a digression. I had had another conversation like that on the with a uh another conversation like that with an entertainment industry mogul some years back when the movie theater business started to cave in. Um you know when theatrical box office started to

collapse and I was like well why don't they upgrade all the why don't they reinvent the movie theater like and why doesn't it have there was this famous movie theater in LA. There was one called the Arkite and it had this incredible experience of you know it had

valet parking and it had reserve seating and it had like real food like real food delivered to you in the seat and it had like you know special screenings where there were no kids allowed and then they had other screenings where like kids were definitely allowed you know and

fully encouraged to yell and scream and and you know and and I was like you know why why aren't there more archites like why h why hasn't this experience been reinvented and the the this guy was CEO of an entertainment company and he looked at me and he said because they're

all owned by real estate guys who have absolutely no interest on what happens is inside the building. Like they

literally don't care. Um anyway, so so back to my discussion with my real estate friend, it was it was the same thing which is he he just said, "Look Adam has completely reinvented our industry. It's it's it's always going to

industry. It's it's it's always going to be like this going forward. It's never

going back. He's he's going to unearth the entire thing and you know, we work you know, in in some way is going to survive this and we'll you know, they'll they'll figure out this specific thing with the with with the company, but he said the industry is getting is getting reimagined. Um and there's only one guy

reimagined. Um and there's only one guy who's ever been able to do that um in this business." business and then and

this business." business and then and then you pause for a moment and you kind of think to your point about like the sheer size of the industry and as as you know as you always remind us you know this is one of the biggest industries on earth you know that matters matters to

everybody um and so as as Ben and I were talking about it more and more kind of as we're watching the whole thing happen it's just like all right like there's you know there's something very special happening here kind of independent of the of the sort of day-to-day blowby-blow aspects of the business and

then and then we'll we'll talk more but independent of you know the financial stresses. Yeah. So the other thing is

stresses. Yeah. So the other thing is you you know we we keep very good track of what our portfolio companies use and they're really good indicator of like

the best new products because they really care about products and you know almost all of them were we work customers and we thought wow that's like

super interesting. So we always thought

super interesting. So we always thought he was a really uh interesting guy but you know because he was with Benchmark um we couldn't call him. Okay. So, what

was the first conversation like? Yeah.

So, I I mean you you may remember it better than I do, but um yeah, I just um I was actually I think it was Was it during CO? It was co It was during I

during CO? It was co It was during I looked it up before the podcast May 2020. So when the co lock the covid

2020. So when the co lock the covid lockdowns hit hard, you know, out out here um and I I had this I didn't have a home office really set up because we always worked out of the office and so I had just I was at my dining table with a chair and after about eight hours of

Zoom calls, the entire side of my body from my neck all the way down to my ankles would be basically seized up and in pain and I was like I can't live like this. I'm going to die. I'm not going to

this. I'm going to die. I'm not going to die of CO. I'm going to die of crippling whatever this is. Um and so uh I started taking uh three-hour walks every morning. Um, and I I went over to the

morning. Um, and I I went over to the Stanford campus, which was Stanford campus, May 2020, Stanford campus completely completely deserted, except for me taking a long walk. And then

there was one staff guy um uh who was stationed at the head of the uh of the of the quad area where I would park. And

his job was to yell at me for not wearing a mask. As far as I could tell that was the only thing he did all day.

And I would see him every morning and he would yell at me for not wearing a mask.

I would wave my mask at him, just keep walking. Anyway, then I would do three

walking. Anyway, then I would do three hours of calls. And so I actually actually remember this is why I remember the call is because I remember actually standing in the field at one of the fields at Stanford and actually having the call and yeah and it was basically just like look like you know

we've always really admired you know what you've done and you know we know we you know we understand what you're going through from the press but you know basically is I can't remember if I told this to you but like our our philosophy always on this is like one of the key ways you evaluate founders is like what

difficult challenges have they been through in their lives that they were able to overcome and the the best forecast of being able to overcome a profound challenge in the future which every entrepreneur deals with is overcome profound challenges in the past

and many of the great founders in history have had significant blowups at various points along the way including like Henry Ford. Yeah, exactly. Well

Thomas, there's tons of examples. Thomas

Watson Thomas Watson senior who founded founded IBM the guy who founded IBM he founded IBM in his 40s. In his 30s he was convicted by the federal government of antitrust. He was like convicted of

of antitrust. He was like convicted of antitrust violations for for running his previous company NCR. like he was basically already you know he's already basically been completely taken down by the government at that point and then started IBM and so there's just this

long history of people who have kind of been through these things and you know some people get punched in the face hard and they never get up again and other people just get punched in the face and they're like wow it's another opportunity for me to stand back up and and show what I'm capable of and so we

we've just always felt like it just because somebody goes through something that's very difficult if they're able to you know navigate their way through it and kind of demonstrate their character through it they they often have great potential um and I you know I don't know

I don't know if is reasonable for me to draw the you know kind of comparison to like what you were describing for you know being dyslexic as a kid or whatever but like being through a fundamental challenge you know like that whether it's in childhood or adulthood. Yeah.

And it's you know there there's a couple of things that go with that. One is um anybody who's ever had a great success um knows that the margin between that

and a total failure uh is very very thin. And the bigger the success the

thin. And the bigger the success the thinner the margin. So like you know all of us who have been through that go wow like you know one bad piece of luck and

it could have gone completely the other way and then u you know we kind of philosophically very kind of early on in the firm always

felt that what we're looking for is great strength and like every person has a weakness um or has weaknesses

and some of them show up in like crazy ways.

Um, but that doesn't even matter because everybody's got that. What matters is are you world class or best in world at what you can do, not what you can't do.

And he was clearly like clearly clearly clearly like as Mark said, you know, top two in one thing. There's just very few people on earth that are top two in

anything. Um, so you know, it was it was

anything. Um, so you know, it was it was one of those things where like we were excited uh to meet him, not you know, it wasn't oh boy, this is Adam Newman. We

were got all [ __ ] up. That was never a thing. And then maybe one more thing

thing. And then maybe one more thing just a general observation which is kind of the old adage of was it failure failure is success has a thousand fathers but failure is an orphan is there's just I I don't know actually I can't remember if I've ever asked you

this but like what a lot of people who go through kind of a big public kind of you know take down tear down of some kind you know kind of go through is just like all of a sudden everybody they know and they're just like you know the phone's not ringing right I've heard this from lots of people I don't know if

it happened to you but I've heard it happen to lots of people where all of a sudden it's just like you you you develop you know you develop leprosy or something and people just don't want to talk to you. And it's just this like completely bizarre thing. Um because

it's like, all right, this is like a person who people had, you know, super high opinion of and then, you know, lots of relationships with and then just all of a sudden, you know, it's just like poof, vanishing. It's like, you know

poof, vanishing. It's like, you know what is that? Um and, you know, every one of those people is probably telling themselves some story about how, you know, they're making the right call by by separating from the person. But what

what's of course what's happening is what Ted Kazinski, famous philosopher Techinski once called over socialization, right? People are too

socialization, right? People are too worried about what everybody else thinks, right? Uh, and so people people

thinks, right? Uh, and so people people get too wrapped up in the sort of mob scapegoating cycle of, you know, being able to and and sort of this this need for this kind of perceived need to kind of for everybody to agree on everything

all the time. And that just has this effect of I think too many really promising people being abandoned at key moments. Anyway, I I don't know if that

moments. Anyway, I I don't know if that happened to you or how how much that resonates, but I have talked to many other people who have been through this kind of thing. Um, and I know that that happens. And so, uh, you know, to be

happens. And so, uh, you know, to be able to talk to somebody in in that to be able to talk to somebody in at that time, I think is it's it's like a it's a blow against conformity. Yeah. Um, which

I think is uh always a good thing and it's, you know, it's a time when people actually could use a call. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I think I think the thing I would add to that is so I'm not sure we spoke about it. The phone completely was not

about it. The phone completely was not ringing when you called. And some people are social. I think I'm on the I was

are social. I think I'm on the I was extra social. So, my phone was ex and I

extra social. So, my phone was ex and I like I'm more of a talker than so really stopped. And it wasn't just that. It was

stopped. And it wasn't just that. It was

I say this sometimes. I speak about it.

I had a thousand friends a week before.

Yeah. And I went down to 10 and five of them were family members. Yeah. Which I

think was part of it. And for me also I had some of my closest friends working with me because that's part of our ability. And there was a moment where

ability. And there was a moment where even people who knew me who were there for this story. Yeah. Suddenly believed

what they were reading. Wow. And I do believe we live in a different world. I

I think we're talking now 2019 and we're now 2025. Hopefully the world has

now 2025. Hopefully the world has changed enough that people know not to believe everything that they read. But I

think that was still an end of an era and we were right place, right time for that. So it definitely stopped ringing

that. So it definitely stopped ringing and and something that I don't know if I've said it to you but it was greatly appreciated that phone call and was interesting about phone call we there was no business transaction in that

phone call the phone call was just how you doing and tell me what you think and there is something I've shared it before but it's worth it where you said Adam tell me how you're doing and I jumped straight into my lessons learned and

this had an answer and you were like oh you're still in that stage I was and we don't know each other but I was like well Mark please tell me what that stage is he goes you know the stage when you forgot everything you did and believe

everything that was written about you.

It's a stage. It will pass. And you also told me and then you told me the same thing, Ben, that you're speaking about about you said, "Let me tell you what I think about what you did." It was very nice. But you also said at the end of

nice. But you also said at the end of it, you said "Adam, just so you know and I'm sure we'll talk again." You

said, "There's only going to be one decision that you need to make moving forward, and that's are you're going to get back in the ring or you're not."

Yeah, that's right. And he goes, "I feel I don't know you, but I feel like you're the guy who's going to get back in the ring." And that's where it's ended. And

ring." And that's where it's ended. And

I was still thinking back at it to today. Or if I had someone I was

today. Or if I had someone I was mentoring and they would tell me that Mark called him, I would say, "Well call him back. See if there's something you guys could do. There's none of that.

It was just that." And the other beautiful thing that you guys did, but Mark, it was again you. About 6 months later, you called me again. Yep. Say

"Hey, we haven't spoken. What's up? What

are you working on?" and and and I was starting to actually work on residential because Ben, you know, to your point there was always one idea, but I thought I was working on residential as an investment. It was COVID cap rates, for

investment. It was COVID cap rates, for those who remember, interest rates were literally at zero. Cap rates were wide.

For those who understand real estate when cap rates compressed, the value of the real estate goes up. So when Mark call said, "What's up now?" I said "Look, we're doing this, we're doing that, but nothing nothing that special."

Mark's like, "Okay, let us know if something interesting happens." And um between that and the third time that we spoke I started walking the buildings and even this is something amazing about

corona. So so much changed in the world

corona. So so much changed in the world and I would love to hear Mark because I think it's so interesting because we gave a lot of forecast you and I in Corona. What's going to happen to

Corona. What's going to happen to office? So what's going to happen to the

office? So what's going to happen to the home? But something that was obvious in

home? But something that was obvious in Corona is people are not going to give up their homes and where your home is is where your heart is and and you get back home and you need some version of

community. And people back then were so

community. And people back then were so connected digitally more than ever before and no one to talk to. And

especially with the mask, if you really want to make it hard, add that barrier.

Then tell people they're not allowed to be in the same physical space. And you

got yourself an anti-biboot moment.

And uh peak untakey boots moment was somewhere in the middle the middle of corona and me and my team we were like hey let's go buy some real estate and my head of real estate goes name is Mark he goes Adam how am I going to buy this real estate we only know how to buy by

talking to the landlords because we don't use brokers we want the deal so we want to find the seller that really needs to sell and we need a reason to buy and I said go meet them said they won't meet me I said meet them outside

put them across the table make sure they have a beer over there you have a beer over there and scream to each other And he goes, "No one will do it." I said "Everyone will do it. No one's calling them." Yeah. And everyone did it. And

them." Yeah. And everyone did it. And

our first five acquisitions, who turned out to be amazing acquisitions, who we're going to get to talk about afterwards, but all have amazing bases were done like that. And sometimes all

you need to do is is call the guy or show up. And in Corona, you didn't have

show up. And in Corona, you didn't have to do that much to be very different.

Yeah. So, how did it change from making some investments to we're going to take a massive swing on on residential? So

two ways. One, I think real entrepreneurs can't help themselves actually. I think another So you said

actually. I think another So you said one, what did they go through? I love

that. And how did they deal with challenges? And also, can they help

challenges? And also, can they help themselves? Is this some is this a

themselves? Is this some is this a problem they must solve or do you think it sounds good? If they think it sounds good or they want to be founder because they saw social network, the movie well, that's not that's not going to be

a good reason.

Great movie by the way. That's not going to be that's not going to be good reason. But if it's burning from the

reason. But if it's burning from the inside and no matter how many people say they have to do it, what happened is I started walking the buildings and it was lonely. It was soulless. It was

lonely. It was soulless. It was

depressing. And we're talking when I say buildings, the buildings we bought, this is 400 to 600 apartments. These are

shared gyms that look as nice as Equinox and swimming pools and kitchens and all these rooms that were designed by people assuming people are going to get together. And not only is no one there

together. And not only is no one there even when people are there, they're not talking to each other. And I just looked at it. I was like, I could do so much

at it. I was like, I could do so much better than this. And step one was just like, let's just find a little bit of technology. So we found a company that

technology. So we found a company that already existed and we bought it and said, let's just connect them a little bit, not with big intentions. And step

two is let's find a great property manager. So we had five assets. So we

manager. So we had five assets. So we

hired five different property managers.

Said one of them is going to be great.

And then we'll have a we'll tell them what to do as asset manager. person in

real estate, you have the property manager that runs it and the asset manager that is the person like the Blackstones and Black Rocks of the world that that deploy the cash and they have a relationship between them. And then we

used these different property managers and they were all sort of the same. They

all had the same problems. They all told us the same story. They all had the same pitch and their occupancy was completely controlled by supply and demand. And so

at that point we so we started working and we started doing it and immediately we started seeing positive results. So

we were like, "Okay, this is a good direction and we're going to keep doing this." And that was sort of that. And by

this." And that was sort of that. And by

the third time that Mark and I spoke Mark read an article in the Wall Street Journal. And today we try very hard not

Journal. And today we try very hard not to have any articles about us, but that one slipped. So Mark called and said

one slipped. So Mark called and said "Hey, I read in the Wall Street Journal about a billion dollars. You're not

telling me you're starting a business."

And I said, "No, it's actually more us.

We're we are starting a business." And

he said "You have an idea for a brand."

I said "I do, but we're doing it just us and and we're we're taking our time."

Mark says, "Sounds awesome. Maybe you

guys can come and share it with us." And

um I said, "I would love to." Without

really expect again, no expectation. I

think the thing about this relationship is it it it formed organically. It took

time. There was no rush to do anything.

And uh and that's what made it so real.

And then we went to dinner at Nou. Mark

hosted us. Ben was actually not in the first lunch. DG was there. the the he

first lunch. DG was there. the the he runs growth and Chris Dixon was there who runs crypto and we had um and we had this very nice dinner and

I remember coming to the dinner and we sit down and Mark goes so tell us about this new idea and I said well I actually want to start by talking about lessons learned from Weiwork and Mark said Adam we we wouldn't have invited you here if

that's what we need to talk about we've done we know a lot about you don't worry we might know more about some of your mistakes the good news with we work is it was very well documented He read the book. We watched the miniseries. He said, "Not only talked to

miniseries. He said, "Not only talked to him and they they had a lot of employees." He said, "Not only have we

employees." He said, "Not only have we read the book," You said "Not only have we read everything. I know your board members. I actually know I know all of

members. I actually know I know all of the trip. I know them. I spoke to them

the trip. I know them. I spoke to them and and uh you're here because we wanted you to come. Let's talk about the idea."

And I said, "I really appreciate that but I actually want to learn. I'm sure

you have a different take than me. Let

me share." And then and this is for those of you who don't know Mark once you get you let Mark go he has a lot to say. So I started and within minutes you

say. So I started and within minutes you gave me until today I remember you said a few things there that I couldn't believe I never noticed. And one of the things Mark said that was so obvious was

what research did you do about what investors you took? What did you know about their history? What research did you do about what employees you took?

What did you know about your tech leaders? He said, "I get it, Adam. You

leaders? He said, "I get it, Adam. You

move really fast and you're passionate and you make things happen, but how much diligence did you actually do?" And the answer was actually none. For my first investors, they came, they came to me. I

didn't know anything. I didn't know any better. Do you know what else existed?

better. Do you know what else existed?

But if I did, maybe I would have come maybe I would have come here and we would have been in a different place.

But uh but you know, Ben, you've said it to me. We talked about it. We talk about

to me. We talked about it. We talk about sometimes.

Not only I believe in a bigger picture but separate than the fact that I believe in something greater than myself, I genuinely believe that we go to the place that we need to be. As long

as we're willing to learn lessons and change, I know that today I'm exactly where I need to be. And this

partnership, this discussion we're having now wouldn't have happened. So

we had that dinner and it was excellent.

And then we started talking about the future of living and we talked about it pure vision and really what we see. I

said well we and I explained what we already have and explained why we could already start leveraging what we have to then take it to the next level and then we actually went but then Mark then said so what do you think you think maybe we

should explore something said look I don't know you you don't know me I was a little burned in the past we're using all of our own money for this and then Mark you said to me how about you take time and get to know us we'll get to

know you and let's see what happens and it took six months from that point a lot of people think that this happened fast it didn't it took six months from that point to the actual investment which in

this August will be three years. Wow.

Well, one thing I just want to say that's so remarkable is you not only got back in the ring again after you already built an iconic company, you already made more money than than you know what to do with, but you also put a large

chunk of that liquidity back into the company. Sort of a triple down in a way

company. Sort of a triple down in a way that seems like Elon is the only person who continuously does that. So, I think that one I I give a lot of credit to Mark and Ben. And so when they came when we started market I wonder if you

remember this discussion. So we're

starting to talk about the business and I immediately was leaning into asset light because we should be asset light.

Why? Because I heard so many time cuz we work was an asset light for all the all the wrong reasons. I said we need to be asset light and Mark you flew and and now I know but you traveled down to

Miami multiple times and again this was before the famous dinner and we were sitting in the car and we were talking about real estate and you actually talked about your father-in-law and you

shared with me a lot of things that you learned from him over time and uh and I didn't meet him either but he sounds like an amazing person who's done a lot for the valley and for California and he

said to me Adam forget what your team and my team is talking about for a second. Not because we don't respect

second. Not because we don't respect them. We respect everybody and we're

them. We respect everybody and we're going to hear everybody's opinions. But

I just want to know what you think. If I

wanted you to build the largest really disrupt this industry and imagine it the way you imagine it. Would you need to own real estate? And I said at the beginning I would. And you asked me why.

And I said because I want to be allowed to do whatever I want. I want to try everything. I want to fail fast. I want

everything. I want to fail fast. I want

to fix fast. And I want to deploy fast.

And I said I want to change everything.

I want to change the technology of how it's run. I want to change the operating

it's run. I want to change the operating of what they do. I want to change the design. I want to change the smell. I

design. I want to change the smell. I

want to change the uniforms. I want to change everything about it until it gets to something that I know is right. And

you asked me, how would you know when it's right? And I told you it's a

it's right? And I told you it's a feeling. Yeah. And you said great. And

feeling. Yeah. And you said great. And

then you said, I have a suggestion for you. It's not traditional. You have this

you. It's not traditional. You have this large portfolio. Take out of this

large portfolio. Take out of this portfolio whatever you don't think is a fit for flow. Sell it. But the rest what you think is your best stuff, put it with us. aligned on the top together

and we're with you. We go up, we go down. Whatever you do, we do. And it

down. Whatever you do, we do. And it

took me a second and and then at the beginning I thought this was some negotiate made some fancy negotiation tactic because it ended up being one of the smartest things we've done. It's I

genuinely believe that the reason flow today and we're going to talk about it more is where it is was because of that decision. But I think Mark, I've asked

decision. But I think Mark, I've asked you this before. I think the reason you you had a very you actually had a simple reason for that decision that was alignment. something that I think A16Z

alignment. something that I think A16Z is really good at. Yeah. Yeah. And in

part that was based on actually watching we work which is but by the time you get into a situation where you're fighting with your investors like think things just do not end well and we've just we've seen that across many companies and so yeah if you just if

building a business is so hard if everybody's aligned if everybody's not aligned like it becomes punishingly difficult. Well I'll push you though on

difficult. Well I'll push you though on it a little bit because yes but for venture capital saying let's go own real estate not obvious. So, let's talk about that for a moment because this this also goes into what what Flo is doing. So, so

basically the way I think about this is there's sort of two iconic business models that are kind of held out in Silicon Valley as kind of the the best-in-class like best business models ever ever ever made. Um, and one of them is Microsoft and the the great lesson of

Microsoft was you build a horizontal layer uh of technology, you know software operating systems and applications and then you basically run across, you know, thousands of of of different hardware implementations thousands of different, you know

computer makers and chips and so forth.

So you you build a horizontal layer and you never ever vertically integrate. Um

because you want to basically run on everything. Um so that's so that that's

everything. Um so that's so that that's lesson number one. Then lesson number two is Apple uh where you the lesson is you 100% always want to vertically integrate. Uh you never want to be a

integrate. Uh you never want to be a horizontal layer because you don't have nearly enough control over the user experience. You have to you know the old

experience. You have to you know the old Steve Jobs line is that people who you know love software need to build their own hardware. Um you you need to

own hardware. Um you you need to actually control the entire thing. You

need to be completely vertically integrated because if you're not vertically integrated you can't control the user experience. And if you can't control the user experience, you can't deliver the thing you you can't deliver against the vision. And of course, as is true in so much in business and life

those lessons are diametrically opposed right? Like they're they're

right? Like they're they're irreconcilable. Like they're they're

irreconcilable. Like they're they're directly opposed. And and and there have

directly opposed. And and and there have been great tech companies built with the Microsoft model and there have been great tech companies built with the Apple model. Um right. So so you know

Apple model. Um right. So so you know the moral of the story is like it it really depends. Um specifically though

really depends. Um specifically though if you want to control the actual customer experience end to end, you have to you have to vertically integrate.

It's it's the only way to actually do it because otherwise you're you're in you're you're in in the role of having to kind of cajul especially early on you're in the realm of having to cajul people who don't share your vision into

doing the things that are required. Now

having said that as as as as as we talk about all the time there is an extraordinarily large amount number of properties out there that could benefit from the brand the vision the technology the platform and so one of the very

interesting kind of things at the heart of the business model for flow is to what extent like in the long run should it be vertically integrated and to what extent should be you know where we own our own real estate and to what extent should it actually run on across all

real estate and and I think for that we've we can learn a lot from hotels because hotels have gone through the process if you take Hilton and Marriott where They started by owning a lot of it and today if I'm not mistaken less than

we're talking about thousands of properties less than 1% owned. So no

matter how much money you could raise and how big and when we talk about raising money by the way we talk about raising money for real estate funds.

We're not talking about raising money for flow parent company that that door is closed and but no matter how much you would raise it would always be tiny compared to how big the asset class. And

you talked about one of the largest it real estate is so large just so people for people to understand that that we're talking about a $250 trillion asset class but to try to put it in numbers a

normal building these multif family buildings is $200 million a building you buy 10 you're 2 billion in a 100 you're 20 billion and 100 is not a big number it's just you could sit you can we're in

downtown Miami you could stand on our roof and point to 100 buildings that could be flow buildings and there's five different neighborhoods like that in Florida in South Florida and that's just one area. Then you could go to New York

one area. Then you could go to New York and you can start going all over the planet. So I think but I do think that

planet. So I think but I do think that that decision allowed us to be who we are and also when the time does come now so we have two choices but we also can do the flag business where we come to a

person who owns who owns this multif family or the other things the other services that we deliver and put our flag just like the four seasons puts our flag and actually do a management deal where it's our brand our technology our

experience but the expenses expenses are on the on the landlord and some of what's nice also about our alignment is we don't have to make that decision yet today. Right now we have to build the

today. Right now we have to build the best product. Right. Can we share more

best product. Right. Can we share more about what the thesis underlying our bet into inflow in terms of how we saw the you know why was this going to be one of the you know biggest companies in the

world. I think it starts with as we got

world. I think it starts with as we got into it really came down to okay who is Adam forget Adam the entrepreneur who's Adam the person

you know what is he good at? What is he not as good at? What are we good at? Um

can we get along? You know, it was that kind of thing. We had, I think, it was like seven hour dinner. Oh, yeah. Talk

talk about that dinner. What was so remarkable about that dinner? Well, I

mean, you know, we really got into it.

Remember how it started. Mark called me.

I saw Mark twice already. Again, I

didn't know. Now I know Mark. I didn't

know back then that Mark wasn't traveling as much and this. I knew that Mark jumps on the plane. He comes, he sees you. But Mark calls and goes, "Hey

sees you. But Mark calls and goes, "Hey I know we hung out twice. We need one more time." I said, "What's up?" Goes

more time." I said, "What's up?" Goes

"Well, my partner Ben, you haven't met him. he wants to come hang also. And I

him. he wants to come hang also. And I

was like, great, we'll have dinner.

Right. That turned out to be a 7-hour dinner.

Yeah, it's a long dinner. You know, a lot of how you get to know someone is kind of get into the things that you know, you shouldn't even talk about right? Like they're they're not polite.

right? Like they're they're not polite.

They're not Yeah. the kinds of things.

And so I think Adam asked me, he's like "Well, you know, like looking at me what do you worry about? like what are you really worried about? Like what do you need to think about? And um I can't

remember exactly what I said, but it was something like look Adam like people look at you and you know I watched the show and in the show the great moment

for you was being on the cover of some magazine, Fortune, whatever. I was like I could see you didn't even care about that. That that was nothing.

that. That that was nothing.

The great moment for you was when the company went to the brink and you saved it.

And what I need to know is like I don't want you to chase that [ __ ] feeling because that will cause you to take chances. There are chances that you have

chances. There are chances that you have to take and then there's chances you don't have to take. And I don't want you taking the chances you don't have to take because you know your vision is so

incredible like it would be horrible to put it at risk for a nonvalid reason.

And so like we kind of got into that and I said, "Look, I know the feeling because like you did too." Yeah, I've been in I've saved the company like that. Like I know exactly what that like

that. Like I know exactly what that like you never can feel that good is walking back into the building when everybody thought the company was over and you [ __ ] saved it. You just pulled it out of like the fire. That's the most

unbelievable thing in the world. But you

don't want to be in that position. Well

and it is worth saying there are founders who will if they do not have a crisis, they will create one. Yeah. They

will absolutely seek out disaster.

Yes. Yes. And look, we all like there's a a bit of it in everyone. And you know if you look at Elon

he takes very aggressive chances. Um

because and he's not afraid of it and he calculates risk, but but the chances have big payoffs and the the danger is always when you take the chance and it doesn't pay out, but it could lo you could lose a company over it. Yeah. And

so, you know, we just had a I would just say the thing I remember about that was um it was a very honest conversation.

It's very hard to have an honest conversation about something like that.

It's almost like people don't want to look at themselves like that. And and I was impressed with

like that. And and I was impressed with how introspective and honest Adam could be on, you know, a number of topics like

that. And so my conclusion is look, I

that. And so my conclusion is look, I think that um this is somebody that we can work with. The things he wasn't good

at at We Work, like we're very good at.

Yeah. Putting together a tech team, you know understanding which of the six ideas are good and which ones we should probably wait on or

not do and that kind of thing. Like

that's the that's a strength of us. It's

been a few years. You've you've been on the board. you've you've tracked the the

the board. you've you've tracked the the company. Why don't we talk about how the

company. Why don't we talk about how the company's progressed and and sort of where we're at because you haven't been super public about it and there's some exciting things happening. So, why don't you share your perspective? Well, it's

off to an amazing start. I mean so first of all the uh the thesis of the value of the community the technology um

everything that Adams talked about the design has proven out like before you know the product is maybe 5% done um but

it's already able to kind of generate you know kind of much higher demand resulting in people willing to pay much higher rent for the exact same space in

the exact same location as other places uh which has resulted in kind of returns on the buildings that are unprecedented.

We've also um you know the company had the foresight to expand into Saudi Arabia uh which is not um something that most entrepreneurs would think of. So

there we we will finish selling them 24 months from when we started. Yeah. But

uh but yes, initial and we're going to sell our first asset. We closed last August. We will sell our five buildings.

August. We will sell our five buildings.

We will sell our first asset in a month and we'll keep a management deal for the unforeseeable future. And then the other

unforeseeable future. And then the other thing is we've built a strategic technological advantage. Um the so you

technological advantage. Um the so you know real estate software has been hampered by old I would just say very crusty technology. I won't name the

crusty technology. I won't name the company but everybody in real estate knows the company. uh and the the flow

team has basically re-imagined what living means. So you know rather than orienting around a building um the

software uh is extremely flexible and can organize itself around the citizens the people who live in the buildings and

the communities uh you know in the world and meet their needs where they are in the kind of best way possible the most

usable way. the just even like

usable way. the just even like signing up for a building, it's going to take you 100x less time. Uh you know something that kind of obvious and

simple. But because of the way these

simple. But because of the way these other things are architect, it's very difficult for them. And that's just the beginning because what's possible technically, you know, particularly in a

connected world and an AI world is just unbelievable if you have the right architecture. And so you've got the

architecture. And so you've got the technological advantage, you've got the uh community idea working fully. Um the

business is working. Uh so it's been it's definitely way exceeded our expectations. Um and uh I mean look

expectations. Um and uh I mean look we're looking forward to building a great company, but I mean our expectations were high. We thought we put a lot of money into this. Yeah. I

think it's the time was the biggest investment we ever made. Yeah. Yeah.

real estate hasn't had a ton of uh tech innovation or disrup like what exactly is is happening here? What what's really interesting? What's the opportunity?

interesting? What's the opportunity?

Well, there's so many there's so many things in the architecture, but it kind of starts with like how do you model what's going on? And there's all sorts

of components that basically uh in a normal real estate world get completely ignored. So, you know, you really as a

ignored. So, you know, you really as a customer um care about everything from your neighbors to the building to your

furniture to how you get your mail um to how the parking lot works to how security works. And you not only care

security works. And you not only care about it, but you really don't want a system keeping your information about you.

you'd like that to be on your phone um and the system to be able to query it but not store it so it doesn't get stolen and these kinds of things. Um and

then if you had that then you'd be comfortable with a lot more about yourself uh kind of accessible and then you can publish what you want to publish you know and the way that um the

company's already taken advantage of that is incredible. So, for example let's say I'm a yoga instructor.

Maybe I want everybody in my building to know that. Um, and maybe, uh, you know

know that. Um, and maybe, uh, you know they really want to know that I can do that because wouldn't it be great to take yoga lessons without leaving my apartment building? Um and so what's

apartment building? Um and so what's happened already in flow is not only has the commerce between residents accountants, yoga instructors, personal trainers, you know, everything you can

think of um completely flourished. There

are people, many people who all of their clients for their business live in the building that they live in. And so this kind of incredible technological

flexibility where you have a single platform where that knows everything about its citizens while keeping things

private. having every service not only

private. having every service not only that Flo provides but that every other uh person um provides all in one place

is just it changes the whole way you live um because and it changes what's possible and it and as I said I think we're at the beginning of that um and

you know no other system I we we started with the other systems um and they're just like they're ridiculous by nature or you know in terms of they don't even

you know people are an attribute of a building um is how that works. So think about that like I as a human being am an attribute of a building to a real estate

piece of software. It's insane. Um but

you know this has been completely rearchitected. The uh chief uh

rearchitected. The uh chief uh technology officer of FL is a architectural genius. The way he's

architectural genius. The way he's designed it has enabled not only everything that Adam envisioned but you know so many things beyond that where every time an opportunity comes up it's

there. The other kind of capability of

there. The other kind of capability of the software that's amazing is because it's so flexible.

Yes, this could be multifamily living or this could be condos or this could be a hotel or this could be office space and

it can change literally with a press of a button uh which is you know that all those are separate completely separate software packages everywhere else in the

world. Yeah. Yeah. So to add to what Ben

world. Yeah. Yeah. So to add to what Ben just said once you're able to use that architecture, which again is something that I do not believe would have been built with other partners. So I think it's another benefit of this

partnership. Once you're able to do

partnership. Once you're able to do that, you're able, you take that multif family. And it really came out of Nate.

family. And it really came out of Nate.

We had a multi family and I just walked in one day and said, "Hey, furnished apartments. Everyone's doing it in

apartments. Everyone's doing it in Europe. Why wouldn't the young

Europe. Why wouldn't the young generation want that? They're I'm 22. I

finished college. I can't buy my furniture. It never looks right. Give me

furniture. It never looks right. Give me

a furnished apartment for an extra $300 a month." And the team literally said

a month." And the team literally said "No, no, the system can't do it." And I said, "We're using one of the traditional system." Said, "What do you

traditional system." Said, "What do you mean it can't?" Said, "It can't. It

physically can't." They said "Well, I want to do it." So, they re replicated the building. So, we had two buildings.

the building. So, we had two buildings.

And then I said, "Okay, no more 12-month leases. We want to give shorter term

leases. We want to give shorter term lease. Some people only want it for

lease. Some people only want it for eight month. Other people want it for 20

eight month. Other people want it for 20 month." Oh, no, we can't do that. And I

month." Oh, no, we can't do that. And I

said, "Well, how about short-term stay?

What if some people want actually?" And

I said "Well, we have this dream day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year. Oh, no. that you're going to

to year. Oh, no. that you're going to need four different systems. So you take that architecture, you take that system you build it in the back end. You build

a system in the front end. You have one brand and you train one team to be able to operate all of that. And the result will be higher NOI, higher buildings that are more profitable. And just to use a little numbers for that, our

building in Fort Lauderdale, NOI, net operating income is 30% higher than when we took over it. Wow. It's 95% full today. It was 95% full when we took over

today. It was 95% full when we took over it. It's not higher occupancy. It's

it. It's not higher occupancy. It's

lower churn, higher rent, obviously better experience. And another

better experience. And another interesting thing which Brand does, 80% of most leases in in South Florida come from brokers. 90% of all inbound into

from brokers. 90% of all inbound into flow is direct to the direct to us direct to the website. Now, our brand is still young, but even a young brand, and we never said, we didn't say this, but

40% of sorry, 70% of 40 year olds and younger in the United States are renters. They spend a third of their

renters. They spend a third of their wallet, a third of their pocket on that rent. There's not one brand. You have

rent. There's not one brand. You have

them in hotels, you in condos, not one brand. There wasn't one in office before

brand. There wasn't one in office before we did that. Also, and by the way, the one of the things that is so exciting about this business we work got to where it got with no such technological

platform just the brand. Just the brand. Yeah.

This also goes to conversation we had early on about the sort of changing nature of housing in the US, right?

which I which we've talked a lot about since um and I I think a lot about which is basically there's a bifurcated housing market in the US is the way I think about it basically is there's plentiful cheap housing all the places that don't have great jobs where people

don't really want to live. Yeah. And

then there's basically like impossible bottlenecks on housing stock um in especially the cities and especially the cities where lots of young people want to live and especially where the really great jobs are and where the economic growth is. Um and so just as like a

growth is. Um and so just as like a young person starting out in life like you have a very it's an assault on young people. It's an absolute attack on young

people. It's an absolute attack on young people and I mean it actually become you it's actually hard to even discuss this without getting enraged because we're sitting here in California where they have the infamous Prop 13, you know which is this very explicit, you know

handout to boomers at the expense of basically the, you know, the entire the entire young generation coming up now.

Um, but basically like if you want to live and work as a young person in a place where you're going to have access to top flight economic opportunity in all these growth industries and you want to work in tech or you want to work in design or entertainment or you know any of these any of these you know finance

or any of these you know kind of grow growth industries. Um like number one

growth industries. Um like number one you're not going to own a like owning a house is going to be completely unaffordable. Um and so you're you're

unaffordable. Um and so you're you're going to be you're going to be in some sort of multif family some sort of rental uh you know situation. Um, and

then the other thing is like there's a really fundamental kind of stress point and and I think this is coming fast enough for Gen Z which is like all right, are you ever going to be able to get married and have a family? Um, and

what is that going to be like because can you can you really do that like in a small apartment? Um, and and you know

small apartment? Um, and and you know all all the data of course indicates that in all these cities by the way all over the world you know birth rates are crashing. You know population uh you

crashing. You know population uh you know you know populations are declining.

You know people are not even reproducing at at uh at reproduction levels. Um and

so there's this like fundamental social political, cultural, economic vice that young people are in. Um and in in the absence of something like Flo and the absence of a thoughtful approach um

where you could actually imagine having a positive experience and being able to uh you know being able to actually have you know fulfilling life and a fulfilling experience like I think young people are really in trouble. Well

let's add two thoughts. First of all, I think this is and we Mark we talk not today about politics but in general about politics. I think it's a main

about politics. I think it's a main issue globally and sometimes a lot of other issues become louder y but might be the biggest one that's right because if a person doesn't have a home a shelter something that they feel that's

theirs how do you expect them to treat other people the way you they want to be treated how you even going to ask them to go to that next level of behavior that we expect from all of us if they can't afford a house right and so I

think that's I think that's probably the worst deal a young person can have paying rent traditionally at the end of every month you pay that rent and the only feeling you have is I just threw the money away. And it actually, this

goes a thousand years back, this word lend lord. Yeah. Where these lords and

lend lord. Yeah. Where these lords and you had to and you would get a piece of the land. You'd work the land for the

the land. You'd work the land for the lord and then you'd give that piece whatever this if you're lucky you got to keep a little bit. It was all up to them. The entire concept of real estate

them. The entire concept of real estate is is the halves and the halves not. But in a much bigger topic, we hear a lot of noise about a lot of halves and halves

not. This is where it's really playing

not. This is where it's really playing out. So I think with a reality like flow

out. So I think with a reality like flow that we're dreaming of and we started multif family but so we said you could take a multif family now it's now it's rental furnished unfernished short-term

long-term we didn't talk about condos but FL launched a condo project 5 months ago so you can own you can buy you can you can rent you can do anything between but that's when you're living in these

towers flow sees a future there are a lot of single family also which is another huge part there more single family than multif family another big part of it so another part of where Flow can come in and offer all these

services. And if you can prove, which

services. And if you can prove, which you can already see with the numbers in Flow, that the returns on the real estate are actually higher, then landlords and investors all over the world will be very happy to deploy their cash that way. And now they're

deploying, and we like to call it a win-winwin. The investor can win, flow

win-winwin. The investor can win, flow can win as running it, and the user can win. And if everybody can feel like

win. And if everybody can feel like they're a winner and they're getting something much better, then um then you really have a new a new solution. Now

there's a lot of not not for today, but to complete that solution, you would have to at some point tackle that word of ownership, but as we said, Ben, you said we're 5% into the journey, maybe

even 3% into the journey, but we're just starting. And the other interesting

starting. And the other interesting thing is, so you're seeing the properties in Miami already delivering both on top revenue and profitability.

And the reason profitability is such an important metric for us. If we just spend more and made more, that's not going to that's not going to do anything. You're not going to encourage

anything. You're not going to encourage any investment. We need to spend the

any investment. We need to spend the same and make more or spend less and make more. And that's why NOI your net

make more. And that's why NOI your net operating income is such a good metric in in these buildings. But then to Ben's point, and then they're starting to do business with the self. So you spoke about the people who don't have any other business. The way we like to talk

other business. The way we like to talk about it a lot is how many classes does a yoga teacher need to close the month?

just to pay rent and the answer is not not as much about five classes a week every week is enough if it's one-on- ones and then they could do group classes and that's just one example also you talked about it as a citizenship

once you become part of the flow community so we do billing for example we built every so we're vert we're completely vertically integrated we built every single piece and the pieces we haven't built yet we're building

doesn't mean we can't use third party software let's say on video cameras or different things they need for security or parking lots there we don't have to invent everything but We do have to have it all connected. And when you do that

and you do it on the right architecture you're able to see things. I'll give you another example. Events. 60% of our

another example. Events. 60% of our residents. 60% of the events in flow are

residents. 60% of the events in flow are run by residents. And because of the tech, they created it, they published it, they invited people, people registered. If they wanted to build

registered. If they wanted to build people, they can build people. And it

all happens. And 60% is now when we're early. That number is going to go up to

early. That number is going to go up to 90%. And great communities, we spoke

90%. And great communities, we spoke about communities run themselves. So one

sign and I know it used to exist in schools, still exists in schools. When

you go to tour university, hopefully a student that's really proud of the school they go to is the one touring you. It's not the salesperson trying to

you. It's not the salesperson trying to pitch you. The same thing in same thing

pitch you. The same thing in same thing in the buildings. If the community when someone tours the building, a great one of our great and we're trying to everyone there's no more just leasing agents. Everyone can be a listing agent

agents. Everyone can be a listing agent because again if you're holding the app and that piece is called the host app.

You can you can make a lease as Ben said very quickly and everybody has the same information as you walk around you just introduce the person touring to residents and everybody's excited to talk about it. And I think this is a

good segue into so if we didn't make it clear enough flow is a vertically integrated real estate company that started in long-term rentals then introduced all the other aspects of

everything you can do in a building including condo and office and then we started offering services that put the resident in the front and allowing them to work with each other. our technology

our brand and our operations coming together yield this experience which is already proven that it's doing a higher return for the owners of the buildings.

But before we talk about that, I think the going to Saudi was a very interesting thing. First of all, again

interesting thing. First of all, again interesting about our dynamics because think of that board meeting. So you have a few buildings in Miami. They're going

great and now you're coming to the board to say, "Okay, so our third building is going to be and you know, let me guess New York City." No, Austin, Texas. No

very nice place. But no, and then you say Riad and I think that's just not I think that's not your obvious thing. But

again, and this is something else you talked about success, the division success and failure being so small.

Again, I believe I believe in God. So

for me, it's this Mark and I have different discussion how we define God differently, but we believe in something greater than ourselves.

We after the investment was made, you guys got quite a lot of phone calls from your LPs and you reached out to me said.

Yeah. I I think you might have told me from every single one of them. You have

a lot. So that's a lot of phone calls.

And I remember you asked me, Ben, hey Adam, do you mind coming with me to the Middle East? I'm going anyway. And let's

Middle East? I'm going anyway. And let's

share with not everyone, but top 10 12 LPs. Tell them what flow is. And I'm

LPs. Tell them what flow is. And I'm

sure it will be great for you in the long run. And it's great to do. You'll

long run. And it's great to do. You'll

meet great people. And that's what we did. And we walked around and there were

did. And we walked around and there were two very funny things that happened.

One, we would walk in. No matter what meeting you take with Ben, at the end of the meeting, forget Flo, Ben gets offered money. That's just it's it's it

offered money. That's just it's it's it happened to us again last week. It's

it's an interesting Yeah, that was a real estate investor. It's an

interesting it's an interesting experience to go with Ben. And so people think I'm great at raising money. I'm a

beginner.

And so we would go to these meetings and we told them about Flo. And Flo was only in Miami at the time. And what was interesting is without fail, every one of these LPs, they're all from the Middle East, said, "We think this

concept would be great for the Middle East, specifically Saudi Arabia for real." And even in Abu Dhabi, they said

real." And even in Abu Dhabi, they said the same. And in Dubai, they said the

the same. And in Dubai, they said the same for a variety of reasons. And once

I heard it for the 10th time, then I was like, "Hey, maybe we should check it out." And we did. And I went to Saudi.

out." And we did. And I went to Saudi.

And I think what's interesting when we went, first of all, Saudi is phenomenal.

For those of you who haven't had a chance to go them, what I get excited about Saudi, the optimism, the vision.

Ben, I think might have coined the term a a founder-ledd country. So there's a vision. It's very clearly articulated.

vision. It's very clearly articulated.

It's vision 2030, but there's also now visions for 2020, 2034 and and further.

And as part of that vision, you're taking an entire economy that used to depend on oil and you're diversifying it. And 70% of Saudis are 40y old or

it. And 70% of Saudis are 40y old or younger. M and so it's a very young

younger. M and so it's a very young population and they're a lot of them are educated in the west. English is spoken everywhere and MBS the leader has not

even slowly quite fast changed a lot of rules that have made foreigners and foreign investors and change rules internally and externally inviting a lot of people in and I think last week a lot of us saw Trump there and a lot of

people are talking about it but we've been going there for some time and choosing to go to Saudi was a very big choice for us as a company and in

hindsight extremely worked extremely But it was also very difficult because there was a lot a lot of challenges that were happening as we're there. But we

got to deploy everything we did. So we

went to Saudi. We still want to be vertically integrated. So we chose five

vertically integrated. So we chose five buildings that were going to be condos which means they were going to sell them. We bought them from the developer.

them. We bought them from the developer.

We changed the condos into rentals and we started deploying the brand. We put

our design from the outside. We brought

our furniture. We launched it on our tech. It was also the first time we got

tech. It was also the first time we got to launch it on our backend system, not just our front end system. So it was a very good opportunity for us. our team

our uniforms, our smell, our music, our art, everything that we do, but also very localized and because of my past, I have a lot of experience entering into new countries. So, it's not something

new countries. So, it's not something that I haven't done before, but it was definitely different and we and the way we wanted to do it is not just use our own money. We were

going to raise a local fund because the theory was if and we're only going to raise it from local investors, not go to the big investors that run that run Saudi, but local families. Because I've

learned many times if the local families of a country want to support you, they know what's going on in the country. If

you go to all the local families and no one wants to invest, maybe your idea is not as good as you thought. Yeah. And

that's what we did. We raised it from actually 33 different investors. We put

our own equity. We got debt from the local bank. We bought these five

local bank. We bought these five properties. It was about a billion star

properties. It was about a billion star which about $300 million fund. And we

started and that was in August. And then

we started operating. We opened our first building in January. We achieved

over 90% occupancy within 60 days. Wow.

We opened our second building right after and we opened our third building last month and our fourth and fifth building we've already pre-leased to a

enterprise that's going to release it for the next 5 years. So the entire portfolio is going to be stabilized over the next 90 days. That's when you opened in January and it took 60 it took six

months to become NYOI positive. And for

those real estate uh people that are listening to this, that's extremely fast for buildings that were at zero. We also

have to do everything that you do when you go to a new country, which is hire a local team. We're very lucky with a

local team. We're very lucky with a local leader named Fawaz that came from government and was a CEO himself and did a lot of things. But we're very lucky having a local team. And something

beautiful that happens in FL whenever anyone needs to go to Saudi, you too many people volunteer. And if floor right now say who wants to move to Saudi, you're getting half the employees in the company raising their hands

because in Saudi and in Riyad we get to take all these vision that we have the only ones doing it. And as good as our product market fit is in South Florida

and it's really is excellent. It's

phenomenal in Saudi. How amazing is that that everybody wants to move to Saudi? I

mean just if you went back 12 years the people in Saudi wanted to move out of Saudi that's completely turned around. I

really I really think it is and it also for us as a company it forced us to do us launching the technology even before we were fully ready forced us to see what's working and what's not. It also

shows you the power of the platform.

It's back to that agility. Yeah. In

Saudi you have to be connected to the government for the rent for a variety of reasons. Actually allows you to to take

reasons. Actually allows you to to take people out who don't pay rent. There's a

lot of reasons for it that work out really well. Our team did it in four

really well. Our team did it in four days. We didn't think it was a big deal.

days. We didn't think it was a big deal.

We talked to people because the system is built to be flexible and it's built to need to connect to external things if it needs to. And because our architect Scott who is our CTO knew that he needs optionality both because he knew how I

operate as a leader but also because he knew that we just don't know yet what we don't know. And when we meet people in

don't know. And when we meet people in say so when are you going to connect to the system they're say what are you talking about? We're already connected.

talking about? We're already connected.

Then other people ask us say when are you going to become a Saudi company? We

heard that takes two years. like I don't know we have fawaz and it took us exactly 60 days. So not only are we operating in Saudi we're operating as a Saudi company which I think is is very

important and um you know without comparing but the experience that we're delivering right now in Saudi is is not just second to none but it it even competes with our local experience in

South Florida. Wow. Talk more about the

South Florida. Wow. Talk more about the real estate fund because I I know the one in Saudi did tremendously well. Um

but is this a model that you're planning to roll out uh across region? talk more

about how that how that's going to work.

So, let's start with the real estate fund in Saudi. It was launched and closed and actually got overs subscribed mainly because not only are they really up, it's also great to send to your

investors back money. So, um it's we're very excited to do that. We're planning

to send the first check soon. So, that's

very exciting. Also, when we sold it the people are buying, they want flow to manage it, which is the beginning of the business model that it's going to become. That is the flag model. So at

become. That is the flag model. So at

the beginning I think you have to be vertically integrated because you have to prove it on yourself. You have to put your own money there. But after it's proven there are a lot of real est of of real estate investors that would like to

invest in an above market offering and connecting it to what Ben said about why is the technology lying the moment you have technology that allows you not just to deliver a better service in the building that creates more loyalty that

lowers churn that increases rents that connects the community internally that allows all these things to happen. By

allowing yourself to move from a multif family to a hotel, extended stay furnished apartments, corporate housing it gives you so much flexibility. So

Saudi for example, a lot of expats are moving in. We learned very quickly that

moving in. We learned very quickly that these expats are getting one month from the company that hired them. So some

numbers for everyone about Saudi. Riyad

has 7.8 million citizens is growing to almost 10 million by 2030. over the next five years about 5 million expats, big numbers. They get hired by these local

numbers. They get hired by these local companies, a lot of them. They get one month that the company pays them and then they're supposed to find their own they get paid well. They're supposed to find their own place to live. So, we

said, "Okay, great. Let's give one month because that's what fits them and then we'll see how many of them stay. The

conversion rate has been phenomenal. 90

something% of anybody who took the month is able to stay. But if you were any other landlord and you're the great building manager and that building manager said, "Hey, I want to sell this new offering. I'll give a month, then

new offering. I'll give a month, then I'll give them a lease." The system wouldn't be I know it sounds crazy. The

system wouldn't be able to You'd find a way to do it if you're very savvy. Pen

and paper, do a deal, call someone. You

do something, but it's not scalable. And

I think the other thing about our system that maybe we didn't say enough, we're building it for scale. If we were building this for just multif family you don't have to go as deep as we went in the architecture. If we were building

this for just one country, for just one use case, I think a lesson for me from the past, I have zero fear that we're going to grow to be very big. The time

and when the time comes, when it's time to put food together, I enjoy it. It's

it's my favorite part probably taking our time now to build a product that's actually scalable, learning from our mistakes, taking the time to make these decisions, building. I wanted to

recruit tech engineers faster than Ben and Mark thought was correct. So we

recruit we we made it harder to recruit and recruit them in the right speed. I

had visions of a of a huge number of team that we needed. Mark's very big on great products are built with small teams. That was before AI came. Now that

AI came, it's actually I think a lot of people are starting to understand that.

So when you put all those things together, you start seeing a very good offering for to raise funds against.

That's in Saudi. In the US, we actually bought 30% of a publicly traded company in Israel. were non-controlling

in Israel. were non-controlling shareholders. That company has access to

shareholders. That company has access to retail investors and institutional investors. And with partnership with

investors. And with partnership with that company, we have bought two developments in Miami, South Florida.

One in Aventura and one in a place called Elportal. And again, now you're

called Elportal. And again, now you're thinking of flow not just as we're going to run the building, but actually how are you going to run the entire neighborhood? And all those themes that

neighborhood? And all those themes that we just said that work so well for the single buildings will work even better in a neighborhood. So those two fund structures exist. And because we have

structures exist. And because we have all this flexibility built into it we've already proven that we deliver above market returns. So the people who are going to want to invest in our fund are going to understand that by getting

access to flow to FL's technology to FL's brand. They're going to get access

FL's brand. They're going to get access actually to above market returns which at the end of the day in real estate as you said Mark only two people did that.

But I think the one thing in real estate that's very consistent, if you can deliver the highest returns in real estate for a certain asset class, you're going to attract the kind of money that's interested in investing in that asset class. If you can move between

asset class. If you can move between asset classes, you might attract the kind of money that in the past felt uncomfortable with real estate because even though it's a safe return that we learned something in the past 10 years

is, you know, before Corona, office was great, then it went to zero. Hotel and

apartments, everybody wanted one and then it changed. So it's actually not just the largest class asset class in the world. It's changing. The thing that

the world. It's changing. The thing that the funds give us are it's really twofold. And I I didn't realize this

twofold. And I I didn't realize this before. So the first thing is obvious

before. So the first thing is obvious just scale. So as Adam said, there's a

just scale. So as Adam said, there's a lot of real estate out there. There are

a lot of people who would love to live in a flow community with kind of, you know, be part of something bigger. Um

and we, you know doing that kind of just through the flow balance sheet would be insane. Um, so it gives us a lot of scale. But the other thing that it does is, um, the people

we've partnered with are real geniuses in evaluating real estate and, um, and kind of getting the right buildings for

the right deal in the right locations.

And that's been re really amazing to watch, you know, how uh these people think about how they how they do that

and and how it works. So, it's uh and um and and we have lots of demand. We're

trying to figure out what to do with all the demand. Ben, we're talking to

the demand. Ben, we're talking to engineers all the time who are pursuing AI ideas, who are pursuing crypto ideas.

there hasn't been that many amazing real estate opportunities for, you know, the most brilliant technical minds to sink their teeth into. Why is this an opportunity?

You know, look, as an engineer, you want to build things that really impact people's lives and make their lives better. I mean there there there's many

better. I mean there there there's many many things that you can do that um have small impact or questionable impact but this is something where you know you're

building an environment where for young people um you know we as Mark kind of alluded to you know it's been much worse than what their parents

opportunity was and even what their parents opportunity was which is a new phenomenon um and this is a chance to make it much better um much better than

how their parents lived. And

you know there there's not more meaningful work than that. And then it's a ve it's an extremely complex technological problem. Uh you

know particularly um kind of coming out of legacy world and all these you have to basically start from complete first principles

because you're starting with who's living there. Yeah. Um and the suffer

living there. Yeah. Um and the suffer has to be oriented around them not buildings or apartments or you know a

bill. Uh th those are those are features

bill. Uh th those are those are features of the person not vice versa. Yeah.

Let's let's close this conversation on on some big ideas around the the future of living. Mark, in your great blog post

of living. Mark, in your great blog post about the flow investment and and just in our conversations in general around COVID, you' sort of been struck by how the co enabled some unique opportunities

um for us to rethink how how we think about sort of the future of cities of remote work sort of, you know, in office, etc. And I know you guys have had some some some back and forth on that. Um why don't you sort of reflect

that. Um why don't you sort of reflect on you know there were some things that played out there were some things that sort of didn't play out exactly as we thought some things reversed you know a few years later what are your broad reflection what have we learned so I

feel like co threw almost every aspect of how at least in the US how we live and work sort of up in the air right um and some of those pieces have landed a little bit but some of those pieces still feel like they're quite high up in

the air yep um so just a bunch of observations so one is look like there had been a 60-year history of video conferencing not being a thing and not working. The the first video

working. The the first video conferencing system was rolled out in 1965. It was AT&T picture phone

1965. It was AT&T picture phone completely flopped. There were 50 60

completely flopped. There were 50 60 years and there was a whole theory about people didn't want to be seen when they were talking on the phone. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. The same kind of theory that you wouldn't want to see actors talk in in motion pictures of sound. Yeah. Exactly. So there's all

sound. Yeah. Exactly. So there's all these arguments. Every science fiction

these arguments. Every science fiction movie had video conferencing but the real world never had it. And then all of a sudden just like boom co it actually happened. Right. And and that and that

happened. Right. And and that and that stuck like that that you know that's now a standard technology everybody's used to. And so you know that really opened

to. And so you know that really opened up the aperture. Um so that stuck. Um

then there was the idea that basically all you know all work becomes remote or at least all knowledge work becomes remote. And I would say like that has

remote. And I would say like that has not stuck that well. Um it stuck somewhat and I would say it stuck somewhat in in two circumstances. One is

a lot of CEOs are really struggling even when they want to get everybody back in the office are having a very hard time doing it. Um and and again this kind of

doing it. Um and and again this kind of brings up this issue of like where and how do people live because if if if you could have a much better lifestyle living and working remotely then it's harder for you to come back in the

office but you as a human being are much happier and more satisfied and so a lot a lot of CEOs found that you know many of their best people had actually left the vicinity you know you know of the office by the time co came back and they they have this very difficult choice of

you know trying to kind of coersse them into coming back or coming back two days a week or three days a week. Um and so that that that's going poorly. Um so

that's a real struggle. Um another thing that happened which I think was a kind of a big net negative which I think hasn't really been fixed yet which is um new people entering the workforce had a much worse experience right and so co

was sort of a there was this sort of dichomous experience where if you were like a 20 or 30 year veteran of a company and like a high ranking official it was absolutely fantastic to work remotely because you got to go to your beach house and you know be with your kids or your grandkids and like be on

the golf course and it's just like this amazing thing but you put yourself in the in the in in the in the shoes of a newly graduated you know college grad who's you 22 or whatever, you know stuck in some box apartment somewhere.

And then, you know, basically like, you know, the whole idea of mentorship is just straight out the window because you can't get mentored by a, you know, a face in a in a in a Zoom panel. And so

there's this sort of failure to launch problem with with with young kids in their careers. And I think that that

their careers. And I think that that hasn't been solved. But then finally, I would just say it's not like everybody's just going to go back to work in the office. And the reason for that is

office. And the reason for that is because there is this there is this like massive shift that happened that I think is still underestimated which is I describe as followed which is it it used to be the case that to have access to

the best job opportunities you had to be in very specific places. Um and so there was this old adage that the thing that made Silicon Valley so special is that if you if you lived and worked in Silicon Valley um you could get 20 other

job offers as a database administrator or as a Java programmer without changing your parking spot, right? Because the

because the employers were clustered. Um

and by the way that that's still true.

that's that that's still the case. But

if you're remote, you can have 20,000 job offers from companies that are dying for people with your skill set, right?

That are many of which are not located in Silicon Valley and they're all available on video and you can just do that. And there are lots of people now

that. And there are lots of people now who just like work remotely because they, you know, they can they can do that. Um, and then by the way, there's

that. Um, and then by the way, there's this incredible book called Job Stacking that I always recommend which is sort of this how-to manual to how to hold down two jobs. I was just going to say some

two jobs. I was just going to say some people have multiple Yeah. remotely

without letting employers very it's a very careful how to guide and make sure each employer doesn't realize that you have you have you have the other job and then and then there's another chapter which is how to do it with three jobs simultaneously there's a whole subreddit dedicated to there's a whole subreddit

and now there's the AI version of it which is why you can have you know chat GPT do your job anyway so you might as you know it's very helpful to be remotely because it's easier to do that um and so so you know the remote thing

like you know continues to stick and so so anyway like this is all just I I think a lot of this is just still up in the air right and I we talked to you know a lot of fortune 500 CEOs and I would say that they're all struggling with this like they they actually don't

know how to recover the in office experience that they used to have and they don't know if it's if it's possible to do that and they're you know they're and they're literally you know they're still it's the point where they're issuing like threats and orders to people of like you know we're going to watch your bad you know you pay somebody

like I don't know half million dollars a year to be like a you know senior engineer or something and you tell them you're going to watch their bad their badge reading in and out to like track their you know motions and then you know somehow figure out you're going to

penalize them right it's right everybody ends up in a punch card world Um, and so like I think this is all just still up in the air. And then we we talked earlier about what this means especially for younger people in this question of like economic opportunity

and then family formation and then ability to have and raise kids. And and

I I think the whole concept of how people live and work, I think I think it's been upended and I don't think it's landed again. And I think that there's I

landed again. And I think that there's I think there's interesting questions on every single topic uh that I just covered. There are all these concepts of

covered. There are all these concepts of in the past you would have people live work, go to school, do all those things at the same place. I think part of flow reimagining the future it also I I think

corona actually helped us in a big way because let's take FL for example to build a company of the magnitude that that Ben and Mark were talking about very hard for us to do things remotely.

So let's say our engineers we hire engineers that want to be in the office and the ones we hired before who weren't we let them be wherever they were cuz when they were hired that was the deal that was made with them. But we're

finding a lot of people who want to be in office because that's what they want.

But we're looking for them. But to

create a holistic product, the reason you need sometimes people all in the same room, especially in our world, if the team doing the brand, the team doing the development, the team doing the engineering, the team doing the product

if they don't interact with each other they just don't know the things that motivate each other, right? And you

can't get that consistent perfect experience. So for a company like Flow

experience. So for a company like Flow it's even more important. Now, let's

think about enterprise sales. You go to an enterprise in the past you would say I'll get you office. I'll give I'll I'll build for you. We used to do we work we're very good at enterprise we created office but maybe office is not enough

for a solution. What if I can give you the rental apartments certain number of nights in a hotel a school for your kids in the in the development or outside of

the development and and the office and experiences all around and the retail and before you know it you're creating something very unique. Now a lot of times when developers have tried to do it in a way that was like Disneyland

it's soulless. If you can then do it in

it's soulless. If you can then do it in a soulful way that really makes people and and FL's mission is to connect people to themselves, their neighbors and the natural world. If you could do

those three things, leveraging technology, leveraging operations leveraging everything and make people feel that way, I think for today's world, it is more relevant and more

important than ever before. And as we said before, people are so connected digitally, they've I think never been so disconnected and not for everyone, but for a lot of us that connection is so

important. And Mark was talking even

important. And Mark was talking even about the birth rate that's going to all the different stuff. We need physical interactions. And those physical

interactions. And those physical interactions need to be meaningful. And

imagine if an enterprise could not just give you a great job with a great salary, but could actually give you directionally a community that you would want to be part of. suddenly here's what

I do with my family and here's what I do with my kids and and there is I think a solution that gives a little bit of the good things about working remotely but also solves the bad things which is

there's a limit to how often we don't want to have social interaction and I think the future of flow is has a tremendous amount of potential I think we need to keep taking it one step at a

time I think we need to deliver on all the different aspects of the business so now you heard us talking about funds and raising raising capital to deploy to PE but only people understand why flow delivers a higher value and how it's

going to give them a higher return. Keep

focusing on the resident as it grows to be a citizen as Ben likes to call it.

Commit to the architecture and keep building the right architecture both in the back and in the front end and create a culture of service and hospitality of people that are excited to be part of

delivering this uh this version of the future that we see. I think it's great for the US. We know it's great for Saudi. I think it's a global it's a

Saudi. I think it's a global it's a global challenge and a global solution and I couldn't be more excited to tackle this with our two partners with a great team that we've assembled. Adam, thank

you so much for coming on the show.

Thanks a lot.

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