Adrian Newey Exclusive: My Future at Aston Martin & Why I Quit Red Bull

there comes a point where I feel as if I need new challenges I'm not being honest with myself if I stay I need to do something different Adrian Adrian Adrian

has said yesi will join Aston Martin next year no one in the history of the sport has designed more successful cars than you what were you looking for that they were able to offer first I feel as

if I can make a difference one of my policies has been never to join a successful team I've only ever really had it one interest in my career which is and I've tried to stay faithful with

that you've been described as the man who can see air do you see it like [Music] that this episode is supported by

huel Adrian welcome to the show thank you very much pleasure to be here so a few months ago back in May you said F1 is all consuming I've been at it a very

long time as Forest Gump said I'm tired yeah how refreshed is the man sitting with us today uh feeling no I mean it's it's been nice to be off the treadmill

it's the first time I have been really in my life or my career rather um so just to be able to sort of sit back enjoy life a bit take the old holiday

here and there enjoy family time it's been fabulous and yeah feeling much more refresh now was there ever a moment where you thought maybe I'll just retire I know you like your sailing sa into the

sunset I think initially yes but I guess I always knew in my heart of hearts that I'd need something

stimulating to be doing and I think where I feel very lucky is that well first of all I've ended up doing what I wanted to do since I was about the age

of 10 and secondly it's been a very stimulating job it's it's very multifaceted in terms of working with all my fellow Engineers um working with

the drivers working with the team uh that kind of engineering of a machine that is still a

sport it sounds to me like the fire for motor racing Burns as strong as ever is that fair I think it is in truth I mean I to say you what it it's for whatever

reason it's something he always wants to do from about the age of 10 or 12 what's my my interest even from that very young

age was sort of car design and then it started to become more focused on performance of the car which probably was a bit with my carting and so forth

how to make the cart go quicker uh so I've been lucky enough to do that and it's I've more or less it'd be an

exaggeration to say I've enjoyed every working day but I've enjoyed 99% of my working days and that fascination of of Madam machine well let's talk then about

your plans for next season it finally out there Adrien yui is joining Aston Martin for the start of next season first of all Well Done big congratulations I'd love to know what

questions you asked yourself to come to that decision I suppose I find that there comes a point where I feel as if I need new challenges

the teams reached a level of a good level of maturity it's a very mature engineering organization as well as the

rest the team um so in a way I've kind of done my bit and I just feel as if now I started to feel as if we going a

little bit stale I think the the guys also felt as if perhaps that you know they needed to show that they could do it on their own so I thought well okay

let's give them the chance and give myself a new challenge I think if I go back even 15 years certainly 20 years

and say um yeah would I want to be at work Beyond 60 probably not would I want to be at work Beyond 65 absolutely not

but then you get there and kind of it's I think there's various things first of all maybe it's I don't know maybe I'm guilty of it defining me too much and I

worry about what I'd do if I didn't do that but I don't that's really the thing in my case it's it it's more that I enjoy the challenge I've Loved this as I

mentioned earlier the career I've always dreamt of from a little kid been lucky enough to achieve it still enjoy it um it's just trying to get that sort of

balance right of it not being all consuming because formula one can be all consuming and with that consumption of course comes compromises particularly family life and friends and so on and so

forth and that's that's the difficult bit so what's Manda your partner said about your decision she said that um she would drive I would drive her nuts if I wasn't

working yeah so you're back in I'm really interested to know what the team that you're joining said to you that made you go yeah okay this is this is a project for me what were you looking for

that they were able to offer I think some someone who

would well obviously firstly as if I can make a difference um I guess one of my policies has been never to join a

successful team TR Jo give yourself the challenge of Des joining a team that's at that point in time in any way to any rate is struggling a bit um Williams

well I joined had had a bit of a lean period similarly with McLaren Red Bull so was a

startup so I think that's the first thing is um not to join a team that's at its at its peak yeah

um uh but in particular sort of feel as if it's a team that I could go in and hopefully make a difference that I'd enjoy working with the people I would be

able to work in a similar way with them and that we can all kind of go on a journey together and really that's on the engineering side

but on the on the kind of if you call it managerial side that I would have a partner that I we could work I

could work with and that we could work together in terms of how we develop it so what do you look for in in terms of that relationship well I've been in the in

the lucky position of kind of suppose lots of teams approaching me if I'm honest been very flattering of course

um but as I say it's it's it's looking for somebody people who feel as if they're really passionate about it

and that they kind of how can I put it that the we will work well together and Recon

assum put a team together and and and take take it forward and that that can be a whole variety of teams along the along the pit Lane obviously this is a huge decision I mean

is it fair to say this is probably your last move in F1 yeah I mean I thought I honestly thought that I if you'd ask me even if two or three years ago would I ever be moving from Red Bull to another team I

said absolutely no way Red Bull would be my last team but over the last really 12 months or so things have

slightly changed bit um to the point that's kind of uh after sua this year then I I felt no it's I'm not being

honest with myself if I stay I need to do something different um so that's that's where I am uh but yeah next year I'll be

66 and so I do another four or five years kind of then into into my 70s that has to be enough I have to at that point

yeah my my dream would be to to be in a position bit like Rory Burns achieved with Ferrari where I can then be a a

respected and regarded consultant to that team without being involved every day day to day kind of a slight step

back and what is the difference between you joining a team now when when you joined Red Bull what like what are the differences that you're bringing

did you know that less than half of Brits eat breakfast every day of the week I mean that's amazing but why well it's because we're all time poor especially in the mornings so we

compromise my fix is hu's nutritionally complete high protein shake a complete meal in a bottle that slots perfectly into my life head to the link in the description for a free t-shirt on your

first order with hu how can you resist that I've only ever really had it one interest in my career which has been adding performance to rosar and I've

tried to stay faithful that to that so and the team I I I make that very clear that's don't hire me as a a people manager or something like that because

that's not me and how soon can you be at the track with the drivers absorbing the information soaking up the culture of the team because you and I both know you for more experience than me but the

sooner that can start the better yeah so I mean contractually I and um my my work with Red Bull I've been out of the

Formula 1 team really since after Suzuka whenever that was late April um uh but I've still been working hard

on the the RB 17 track car which has been a sort of side project passion project really which I've hugely enjoyed because it's it's something just a

little bit different to Formula One is applying all the same princip principles and that learned from Formula 1 but to a different application so so I'm still

working on that and I will still be working on that um until the 1st of March uh and then I will still be

working on that after that 1 of March date but not from the factory as much it'll be a more

um uh talking to the guys by video conference or whatever um emails and then when the car starts track testing which will be next summer then uh

tending track test and nobody hires Adrien Nei unless they want to win World titles so have you have you discussed the time scale with the team about winning the World Championship no I

haven't and I don't think I don't think it's I know all these a lot of teams have this sort of fiveyear planner whatever of going from back of the grid to front of the

grid I don't really look at it that way you kind of come in you you you work

with the guys if there's the thing that does take time is if you need new tools um a new driver in the loop simulator a

new wind tnle those sorts of things they have significant light lead time associated with them but at the personal level it's really kind of just trying to

work with the team and the develop with them and develop that work with how we develop it's the better way of putting

it and that doesn't I don't think it has a a defined time scale you soon get a feel for how long

it's lik to take um perhaps one of the things that I did get rice at Red Bull in the early days or one of the things I got wrong when I started the Ripple was I

underestimated the challenge of of of that work of guessing everybody to work together have confidence in themselves because Red Bull okay it's a startup team but strictly speaking it was the

ashes and the Jaguar team um so it was a team that have been around but I don't think that even had a Podium that certainly never won a race they had been

around for many years Noah always finished about seventh in the constructor's championship so they lost belief in themselves they almost didn't believe they could win

and trying to work with them and start to give them confidence that yes we can we can do

this um was part of it and and that's not by standing up on the stage and giving a ra speech it's just to spending

time with people um and the the the other aspect was the infrastructure side that you the wind tunnel was underdeveloped there's no

driver in the loop simulator a lot of the simulation tools were basic or dist exist and that bit takes time you see knowing you as I do there's a huge reg the biggest of big regulation changes

coming for Formula 1 in 2026 so this gives you a a 12-month preparation period with your new team to get ready for that I I sense that that

is music to your ears right it is I mean it's it's it's going to be quite a compressed period I must admit because um the the regulations that in terms of the chassis regulations and the

aerodynamics that go with that they will be announced very early January uh I said so I'll be two months behind the ball when I start um and the sorts of

mechanical layout people can start much ear than that so it'll be quite a short time and and and working learning to try to get myself up to speed straight away

with the new team so it's going to be an intense period an intense challenge but yes right that's an opportunity whether we can achieve it and hit it is who knows so look before we move on to the

rest of your career there's so much to talk about how are you feeling about this this new team and this new adventure excited I mean that's that's the whole point I wasn't feeling excited

about it I shouldn't be doing it and I think that's you know that's as I mentioned briefly earlier a Red Bull for various reasons I

was just starting to feel a bit stale lot of that's my own kind of making and being and so forth so I'm not in any sense ping blame at other people's feet

for that um I got myself in that position [Music] and I just felt as if you know the easy thing to do would have been just sit

there at that time obviously team struggled a bit since then but at that time we were dominating we domination the previous couple of years

um just sit there coun to sticks take the money go home in the evening but I wouldn't have been honest with myself if I'd done that and

um it would be all the wrong reasons so I felt I needed I need a new stimulation I need to do something and so I took the

move of resigning effectively um not knowing what the future is going to hold what you know whether whether are team what offers

there would be if any what other offers there might be outside of formal one whether I would actually say you know what had a great career I I'll go and go

sailing now for and that will do me I just didn't know but I think it's time if you if you're not if you're not feeling as if you're being honest with

yourself then then that's really not a good place to be and I'm in the very lucky position where I've in that extremely lucky position

where I'm in that sort of don't need to work to live it's it's more the live to work I think live to work's a bit too extreme because I don't

live to work but I do enjoy it but can I explore agent you mentioned that you went stale twice one at McLaren and then Lally at Red Bull M what are the signs

of becoming stale um just you starts as if you're feeling as if you're going through the motions as if you're doing an automatic I think is

probably the best way of putting it you don't you don't you don't have those sorts of wake up in the middle of the night which can be a pain in the backside but wake up in

the middle of night with a fresh ping of an idea or or whatever you just you're just not feeling stimulated I think that's probably the easiest way

of pushing it's uh on the RB 17 the track car I was waking up with ideas but I was starting to do less so on the Formula One car and

that just felt wrong to me I knew it was wrong um so we've got a model actually of the rb19 hi there we go this is such a unique opportunity to hear from

someone who is absolutely you know the top of their game in their world would you mind just talking us through that car how how you came to some of the decisions and the part of the parts of

this car that you're most proud of so rb9 so rb18 the 22 car was very much the car that's that set these

subsequent evolutions of the 19 and the ini year car the as yeah 20 in process so they're very relatively conservative Evolutions

last year's car in particular of this original 18 concept so um yeah talking through the car there's some bits I don't really want to talk about but I'll talk about the bits

and just for people that don't understand if i' explain why you wouldn't want to talk about those parts uh sorry yeah I should have explained that so formula one's a very secretive business um some people like con it to

Warfare I'm not sure that's particularly correct but it's it's it's a secretive business where we're all competing with each other and we're desperately trying to hang on to our intellectual property

that other teams don't copy or or or understand so the bits that I don't I feel some

teams may not have still fully understood I therefore yeah don't really feel it's appropriate to talk about the

the things that I'm pretty confident all the other teams have now understood then it's it's effectively internally not as in the public Arena but it's it's known along the pit lanane so it's it's an

Open Secret now and how do the other teams who are spending many millions of pounds on hiring the very best engineers and mins to try and compete with someone like you how do they not see the things

that you see on that card do you think how have they not yet spotted what you did whole variety of reasons I think first of all

um it's trying to put the Crea a bit of creativity and and and lateral thinking into the whole how you go about it and how

you go about the research but also not just blindly believing the tools because it you know form one I think when I first started way back in

1980 um then there was no simulation tools whatsoever the only tool you had available to you was a wind todle that was it and even that was relatively basic in as much as anyway can

understand the flows all toughed and bit of Flav um now you got all these amazing tools right on in the aerodynamics with with cfd computational FL Dynamics which is

aerodynamics by computer the virtual thing but all the other um simulation Tools in terms of lap simulations which allow you to then look at the effect of

the suspension geometry or the or the weight distribution or whatever it might be um and then going on from those basic lap simulations then you've got driver

in the loop for you to put the human in the loop because um that's important not only for his uh his or her kind

of uh ability to articulate what the car's doing which a computer can't what we call with current technology um but also

because a computer will drive it without fear if you like and whilst we can try to put driver models in you can never really get their

reactions correct so you put a driver in the loop which is the big machine which is a simulator which is a sort of huge effectively it's the fairground one that we all see

but come with the neral The High Ground yeah but those all those tools they they're simul simulations by definition aren't the real thing yeah

they have limitations and they have inaccuracies which sometimes you're just not aware of um and even the data when you look at

the track data sometimes it's difficult to pick things out that the drivers are describing but can be extremely difficult to see them in the data but say they're not there we don't have all

the answers we as Engineers still do not have all the answers I think I mean one of the problems first of all is these things these the rubber bits which are

um very difficult to model so the bit that actually is responsible for transmitting the grip from the car to the TAC is the bit that's probably least well understood but you touched on

something that reminds me of a previous guest we had was Professor Brian Cox the the the astrophysicist who spoke about the the healthiest cultures are where people celebrate being wrong because

they understand we don't have all the answers and I'm interested in how do you create a culture where you do have the humility to to accept we don't have all the answers the data doesn't provide us

with everything well it's a very good question I it's one of the one of the cultural changes

that um needed to make when I first started at Red Bull um Red Bull as I mentioned was the ashes of Jaguar uh based in the Midlands and I

grew up in the Midlands I went to college in lingon Spa um and in those days which was mid 70s then we used to

go have day out trips to I think we had one to um four and dagam and we had one

to Triumph Motorcycles and um the I remember because that was the days when Kawasaki with a zed1 and Yamaha and

Suzuki all those Japanese bikes Honda of course starting to come in and um they were very popular reliable they worked they did said what on the they did what they said on the tin whereas a Triumph

for or n and bloody thing will spend most of the time in the garage trying to fix it and um and so it was clear that the Japanese

were coming in the Triumph from Triumph from noron starting to strug anyway he went to see Trump and then the guy was showing us around and I asked him um what do you

think of the uh you know the Challenge from the Japanese said Son we are try to make the best motorcycles in the world we have nothing to worry

about and that's that it's that Midland's arrogance that unfortunately led to the downfall of British Leland and and the British bike industry and

that was alive and well at Red Bull is the ashes of Jaguar that that sort of Midlands engineering arrogance I call it

had had percolated and was very alive and well there that although they'd only ever finished seventh in the constru structors um the day I joined we went out for lunch with the key engineering

team and one of them said to me um Aden we're we're very you know delighted to have you here but please be aware that we I think he's probably even called it Jaguar still he might as well have done

we at Jaguar have our way of doing things and we expect you to fit in I don't actually have a problem with that and happy to fit in what the underlying

implication I thought was very strange that you know I've been lucky enough to to have won quite a few championships as Williams and McLaren by then and You' think he would have been

curious curious as to you know pick my brains and and what I could bring and what my experiences were there's none of that it's we know what we're doing and we expect you to

fit in it's a very strange mentality that was what actually one of the difficult most difficult things it took me took me it took us a year to to kind

of change that culture um and what was the most effective method you found to change it uh

it's so I felt that there were a few bad egg bad eggs in the team probably three or four five not

many out of a engineering Workforce over those days probably 50 or so um and I just had the impression saying yes to my face and running around and

saying no to my back and causing getting various people to push in the opposite direction um but kind of firing somebody or

showing them the p45 for for if you got it wrong is quite a big responsibility so I didn't want to get it wrong so I actually

um a very good friend family friend um that I've know for a long time she worked in the travel in in hotel hotel industry uh but it was just about was

and just kind of was losing a job and falling out of love with it so I said okay would you like to come and work at Red Bull as a consultant three days a

week and we won't admit we know each other you just go underground try to gu understand the business as a sort of undercover HR

super consultant if you like and then come back and see what you find him what you think um because I just felt as was hissing this brick wall and uh and so

she she did exactly that and after a month or two she came back and it actually exactly the same four or five people I thought and so we unfortunately had to

get rid of those people um but I tell you what culture changed overnight from that and you had some incredible moments when you think back to your time at Red

Bull what was the moment you you feel most proud of I think probably coming up with that 2009 car

because that's what set us on the path um big regulation changes I mentioned guessing that right we didn't win the championship that year um Brawn and two

other teams simultaneously came up with the the double diffuser blle um they put in arguing about whether was it was legal or not it was deemed legal and uh

and so we we were on the back foot I think we managed to score more points than braw in the second half of the season but we were just too immature as a team we made a lot of mistakes through

a a lot of points that meant by the time we got the car with a double diffuser on this it's Soul Stone we properly competitive we was too far back um but

it set us on the path and the the the then the four subsequent cars um through to 213 that then did manage to get the

double championships they would they were derivatives of that first car and just as now the the um 19 and 20 were

derivatives the rb8 so it's it's that back to that thing if you can get a a reasonable Direction on the first one then you got half a chance of staying

ahead would you also share with us the challenge that success brings because I think that people think well creating a fast Formula 1 team means suddenly Harmony and joy but actually that period

was where particularly Sebastian ble and Mark Weber had some clashes on track that famous multi 21 where Seb was asked to swap with Mark and he didn't do it and I mean you know you and I were

recently at a Red Bull event and the the emotion still is high isn't it from the people who were involved in the race team in in that period and we're talking 10 years ago so what would you share

with us that you all learned in Red Bull at that time time about the challenges that success can also bring I'm going to tell you a secret that I've noticed about high performers

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checkout to get 20% off and start seeing the difference that Heights could make to your health the first thing about Motor Racing is that it's always pressure whether you're

at the back or at the front it's always pressure if you're at the front under pressure to say there if you at the back you obviously Under Pressure to try and get to the front and it's it's really

about how you learn to live with that and handle it and and kind of get everybody feeling as if if you

are if avoid being complacent if you're at the front which is easy to creep in and if you're not at the front that belief that we can get to the

front we just need to be very calm and and work through and try and understand our problems and what we need to do to get there um if I go back I mean when I first got

into former one in with the 1988 car at Lon house then we were a tiny little teams I mentioned early 50 people but we

punched above our weight we had a couple of podiums um estal was our first big result where uh Evan Capell came in just

behind Alan proston having overtaken ER and Center in the in the race and then uh the very last race Ian

um led a lap in the wet and then and then got over excited and changing the anti-roll bar bar and knocked the ignition switch off she didn't admit

till a year later that was the end of that race so in ag8 I became this sort of new kid on the Block not a new sensation but well respected for what we

achieved as a tiny little team and and my first form one design or the first team my first design the first design

for which I had been overall responsible of the team um and then ac9 of course it was ridicule and you don't know what you're doing both internally at well externally

but also starts to creep into internal as well that some is is basically one hit one to Struck it lucky said yeah and

and that was quite hard also started to try to learn how to handle stress and pressure that that 89 was a particularly

horrible year because blindly the cargo very badly but my marriage started to fall apart as well and to this day I wouldn't like to say which came first or

it it always seemed to me that kind of if my bracing was going badly my home life would go badly if my home life is going badly my racing life go badly or

professional life um and when that happened again in 2010 and towards through the last pass

of 2019 and into 2010 where my second marriage fell apart that time I was able

to channel that and make work my Escape make it my kind of sanctury right um so that now if I wanted to escape all the

excuse my friend in that was going around in my in my head from my home life my Escape was to turn and face my drawing board to start drawing and and

and and I've developed this thing I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing a lot of people notice it for I do have complete blinker tunnel vision a

lot of people then makes them feel as if I'm very rude because I'll I'll walk through the padic and I'm I just don't see left and right because I'm thinking about something I'm walking that way so

people think I've walk straight past them and blank them I honestly haven't I just don't see them and what are you thinking about in those moments car specific things yeah normally particularly a racetrack going be car

specific so I'm I'm quite compartmentalized in my brain I've I don't know if it's an asset or a death

or a handicap but I can kind of learn to to kind of be focused on one thing at a time and if I'm not focus as as soon as

I stop focusing on that then yeah I'll look at other things the only thing I would say about that though is the brain is an amazing thing so I you know I'll

be stuck on a problem at work and can't seem can't find a solution to it and then the evening will come and I'll walk away or it might even be from a problem

that I didn't feel fully happy about from the week before the subconscious must just be ticking away because then suddenly standing in the shower or in the middle of the night or whatever a

solution will pop up and you think yeah yeah that's that's what I'll do in the morning you've been described as the man who can see air I'm sure you've heard that mentioned many

times do you see it like that no of course I can't see it I mean it's it's it's a nice it's a nice romantic image but no unfortunately I

can't um I think what do you see I I'd like to

try to visualize and understand and that perhaps comes back from being of that older Generation Um where before cfd

kicked in where you had to and before CAD so um computer AED drafting kicked in where everything was manual if you

like he worked on a drawing board you worked in a wind tunnel W TFT those are your tools and so you had to Vis you had to try to understand and to visualize

and that's what I still try to do um I'm lucky enough to have I think I to have come from genetically a good

artistic background on both sides of the family so I think that helps me and and after all engineering particularly design engineering performance

engineering which is mentioned my passion It's a combination of science and art in manyways maybe

like Brian Cox was saying that you as an engineer you should accept that there are some things you don't understand science says it

shouldn't be but it is and don't ignore the actual facts um there's an

example where a few years ago um uh it started to look as if uh Rim heating so ping managing how

much put heat you put into the wheel room from the brake dis could be quite an important factor on the surface temperature of the tars on

the sorry what we call the B temperature of the tires carcass and our head of um of vehicle performance that time said no it can't

be you've got this big air caution the cylinder of air in between the transfer time from the rim to the carcass is

going to be huge and even went in down into the lab and set up an experiment where he heated up the rim and then measured how long it was before the

tread started to to heat up and it was some massive amount of time like 1 hour or something stupid and my argument is will know there's something here we don't

understand don't ignore what's what the drivers are saying what appears to happen on the track exactly you you know we don't understand this at the

moment but don't therefore say it's not real and uh there's a lot of resistance to that this is back in the early days of Red

Bull was around 2009 or so when there's still a bit of that J mentality still here and in the end like again I think it's sort of the middle of the night

it's obvious that the the the Donut of air that's inside the T we all has inertia has mass therefore it

has inertia so it'll always try to rotate the average speed of the car around the lap and so when a car which of course a racing car is always either

breaking or accelerating so when you're breaking then suddenly the the tires going slow that column of air and when you're accelerating vice versa um

depending which side of the average speed you are so then you get that then you're getting tumbling and mixing and so you do get this transfer from the rim

to the it's not a static column of air static R there and so we did some transen cfd work and proved that that's the case and and from that we started to actively look at Rim heating which of

course now is very common throughout formul one it's going to acute detail into the level of Rim heating but it was simply I'm not TR full say I'm clever I'm simply saying I was trying to be

pragmatic don't ignore what's smacking you in the face because you can't understand it can you give us an example of cross pollination then where you've seen something from outside of the world of formula one that

you've stolen and applied uh well I suppose back of Williams in 1996 we've been struggling with um the

the flow off the top of the helmet Damon helmet in that case particularly because he's a bit taller than Jack vov um kind of separating on the top of

a head headrest and then uh that separated air going down the airbox and losing engine performance and uh I was trying to think okay what can

we do differently to get over that problem and in August on our summer holiday took an internal flight from Barbados to one of the little Islands C

remember um I looked out the window is's a little turbo prop and looked at the engine intake um which was just below the propeller but the shape above that engine

intake was they had obviously come up with a similar problem rela to the propeller shaped the engine intake appropriately cheaper that's that's a

solution so that's what we then put on to the uh following the the 97 car at Williams and that again it's say was therefore clever but it's now the

standard everybody then copies that and enough you get which all leads to a car that looks like this so let's do this then let's get you to talk us through some of the design elements of the rb19

and how you sort of came up came how they came about really so the the first thing was we wanted

to position the driver quite rearwards in the wheel base for a dyamics in particular and to an extent weight distribution but mainly aerodynamics

that I wanted to get What's called the AA which is the front of the chassis um rearwards because that would free up the

space it make the nose smaller and allow us to create a a very v-shaped nose so which I've always found useful to have a v-shaped nose so that was the philosophy

behind that because he wanted to try to this big front Wing to to get it to work across the span which me minimizing the nose so and that straight away led

to a few key things by positioning the driver relatively rearwards you then needed because we have a maximum wheel based dist distance between front wheel

and the rear wheel that if if you move the driver back you've got to move the engine back in reality which means you then got to have quite a short gearbox

so we then then it was a packaging exercise around the rear if had to do the short gearbox um and and that led to two things on the suspension at the front

because the Sha is now quite rearwards it made if you have a so-called push rod which is um where the arms that control the the vertical suspension are like

that then they're very flat because the Sha is quite low so the the alternative is to go to a pull Rod which you what you went to at the front um simple but that was one of the reasons to pull Rod

the other was to free up and space around the front brake that which thought was probably going to be quite important so that was the front of

the car the rear of the car um then with this short gearbox um Wanted the the Bodywork beside the

gearbox to be quite narrow and um that was proving very difficult package of the PO R which was being this

traditional solution that we introduced in 2009 for the 2009 regulations so we went back to a push

rod which was pre 2009 if you like um to allow the the in inboard suspension to be packaged ahead of the the gear

cluster rather than beside it which was all we could manage to do with the pull Rod so that was those are sort of two key fundamental decisions um both mainly aeronomic

driven and then on the underside of the car wants it to maximize the diffuser space so that me trying to make the

gearbox as small as we possibly could um physically which led to a lot of complaints from the gearbox Department because then when when you make the

gearbox you you wrap the gearbox casing around the the gears themselves very tightly then you have problems controlling the oil because you haven't got a some effectively so it's quite a

lot of work with the gearbox guys and and on the D and so so forth getting this very minimal shape to work

uh the the kind of the very high Underside to the radiator intake to create this um G line

which is actually the G line is a when I was drawing a car quite some years ago I tend to label it the lines as I draw

them on the drawing board a is the top corner of the chassis um C is the top corner of the side pod B is the bottom corner of the chassis and I'll work work

my way through the alphabet and the line from the from the front of the chassis to the the back along the back along the base of the side pod just above the

floor like is G that's that's where I got Tunes so it's internally always now been known as a g line I think it might have even crap 3 form one I'm not sure

so like most of your little inventions wanted I wanted the G line and to be used as much as possible to pressurize

because that pressurizing under here because we didn't really have proper barge boards like the old regulations the best way to try to

um push the front wheel wake outboard which is what you're always trying to do was to raise the front and side pod and quite simply pressurize pressurize the

flow in this area to push the flow the the wake of the front wheels outboard so I guess those I mean there are lots of other bits and pieces but those were the

very key um philosophical approaches that we put

into the design of the art of the 2022 car I say from then then it's it's been evolutionary but and I've got a little this is our actual guest book but I've

got a pen there would you show us the kind of thing that you draw on paper when you're when you're correct do you know what I mean like do you do airflow do you how do you oh chist I'm I'm

useless at sketching on the spot because because okay well if so that's another example

so you got the front wheel there you got this dirty uh com off it you want to get that in the in the kind of vertical

sense if you know down on the front wheel you got this dirty air coming off it you got the chassis

here and here you've got the florage um now what you want to do is try to keep the flow on this floor Edge as tidy as possible you don't want any

of this dirty air ideally to get onto that floor Edge because it gets sucked under the floor then and creates a mess of your of your diffuser so how how do you achieve that and as I

said in our case the I mean there's obious lots of other tricks how you use the front brake dots the design the front Wing but the First Fundamental one

if you like was to that's what I call the G line to create this sort of shape with the G line

where that pressurizes you get high pressure air there which tends to try to push the front wheel wake outboard but

you combine that inside VI with a radiator intake that's as high as you can legally get it then this down washing shape here so when you get to

the floor Edge down here youve you've tried to push this flow it's good quality

flow down and out and you then get to the problem okay what do we now do at the back and the answer is then you you put a sloping side pod in there so they

start to rejoin each other and run out of space as you get to the rear wheel so that was the underlying principle of that side pod sh um and you would then

present that as a an idea in your head and then it's up to the rest of the team to to to test it effectively um it's

yes so I then kind of having kind of Concepts front suspension the rear suspension the underside of the gearbox general what what we're trying to do the diffuser and then starting to

work with the guys on this sort of sideboard concept shape um then then I I work in two ways one is

just walking around all the individual screens and talking to the individual aysis or mechanical designers whichever it is depending on which bit we looking at and the details of the front

suspension or or the aerodynamics or whatever just walking around talking to them um discussing batting ideas around uh and

then they will as a result of those conversation combined with their own ideas most importantly kind of go off and develop and then at the same time I

will spend time on my own if you like at the drawing board trying to come up with ideas and suggestions um of course

nowadays I mean the drawing board is is is clearly a dinosaur of a thing um why do you still use it to me it's it's a

language um so I grew up on on of the age where I grew up on the drawing drawing board CAD systems didn't really start to come in properly until the

early '90s um and didn't really I would say reach maturity until certainly the mid '90s so so but so I've grew up on the drawing

board um it's my first language if if I was a younger generation I wouldn't un be a a cat and I don't think there's a an

underlying advantage or disadvantage to one or the other um I think actually now the the C is the stronger because if I

go back even 10 years I watched the guys on the cad they would take such a long time constructing their drawing that

they they would be reluctant to change it because took them too long to change whereas I'm more than happy to get the rubber out and I probably the lines I end up with probably 50% of them least

have being rubbed out at some point um because I keep changing until I'm happy with it whereas now with What's called parametrics the guys can um put a few

dots and Crosses down create their history file and then they can change it quite quickly and easily so I'm starting to feel slightly disadvantage on the drawing board but I'm afraid I'm bit too

old to change now so interesting look thanks for talking us through the way you work and how you work I want to talk about the sort of the drama if you like of Formula 1 you know you mentioned

earlier 2021 was a challenge cuz of all of the things that were going on off the track yeah how do you personally deal with F1 when it does get nasty as it did

that season it it does take some of the pleasure out of it um that 21 Championship was a particularly dirty

off off the track um some of it to do with Bodywork and what we felt Mercedes were up to which was and then sort of let's say a lack an apparent lack of

willingness from the FIA to uh to properly investigate that was frustrating

um H there was the sort of the silver state accident between Lewis and Max um which I must

admit at the time I was absolutely incandescent with Lewis because I felt it was he did it it was deliberate professional fail I think now with the

benefit of hindsight and time then I I think they had been banging Wheels all the way around the lap up to that

corner Lewis went through an opportunity but she thought was there misjudged it and what happened happened um Max could have we were lucky that Max didn't get

hurt badly hurt that so I I understand sort of how it happened now perhaps better and I was probably a bit harsh I was too

harsh on those um and that's perhaps one of the things of formul one you get sucked into everybody else being the enemy very

easily yeah I remember when um W Aton who been kind of a bit of Nemesis then went from McLaren to to and

joined us at Red Bull it is almost kind of had to

learn quickly to call him out and not Center but that dropped in a moment because when he first came around the

factory I was I um Franken Patrick said look please shine around and and his curiosity and natural engagement and

charism you couldn't as soon as you met and chatted with a guy you couldn't disliking really yeah and what about as a driver as a driver I mean he could be

ruthless obviously he I think you know if you watch that um is a little bit be before my time proper in form one the

the battle between Allan and and eron and the the the deligans that went on there then you can you can debate it I'm

sure both drivers of their own minds felt fully justified in what they did and I guess that's what happens with form one and are you are you okay to talk about the the crash

in 94 with Aton 30 years ago yeah I mean it's I've been in responsible for the design of a car by then for a few years first in Indie

Car the first cars properly responsible for was the 85 March indie car and then from then on continuously

another indie car and then form One cars stupid as it sounds but never ever thought or questioned you know if

somebody gets badly hurt or worse in a car that I've been overall responsible

with for how am I going to feel and when it happened it was just I mean I can the biggest memory of that is that

Bloody claxons when the all the noise that all the spectators made with all these IM of and sit the ight the car you're hoping desperately

he's okay um what a waste I mean I think that was the biggest biggest biggest single emotion what a

waste of what such an amazing person such a stupid accident and such an unlucky accident in as much as if it hadn't been for the wishbone leg then

then he would have been absolutely un hurt but of course in the aftermath he then go through all the you you got the initial emotion of do I want to continue

and work here ler racing how close were you to stopping yeah definitely thought Wen just stopping um and uh and then he and then what what happened was it the

steering column stapped did we completely mess up the design and TR fill a car that was unsafe or did something else happen

um and at the same time I was along with Patrick and I was both on charging manslaughter which lasted for about 10 years which was a pressure but it it

wasn't the key thing for me the key thing was in what what part did I personally play in in what happened

and I don't think we'll ever know with absolute 100% confidence what happened um none of the data points to the

steering column being problem what the data does show is that the car snap sideways in a corner that

should have been clapped um so then and it and it he got through the first lap flat so why on Earth didn't he get through the second

lap flat um he did have a big moment on the first lap but caught it but second lap far pressure should have been up and it should have been F so I don't know you can speculate it a

slow fure um stars are the right rear tire was destroyed so never know um what I do know is the car is AER

nomically unstable which is definitely done to me um i' messed up on the on the aics the car the diffuser was stalling

at very low ride height and having lost the first three races was absolutely determined to to carry the car and win that race and so that's the

respon responsibility I have to live with and and it I think of course then you go forwards and

there have been other times um where the car's going round and you know you're taking a bit of risk but you're trying to weigh up in

your own mind that that risk reward uh probably the worst one actually was that came away most emotional from after imler

was uh Spar which year was it Spar I think it was either 10 or 12 um where we were in a tight Championship battle with

Fernando the tars in qualifying had started to um they sh when when bradle looked at them after qualifying they had structural problems they've been

compromised the carcass is starting to break down um and and the the answer according to pry initially was you're running too much

cber you need to reduce the cber to reduce the cber we' have had to take taken the cars out of park F so both drivers would Mark and SE would have been at the back of the

grid um so you know it would be handling Fernando an absolute gift so then it was

okay what else can we do and pett came back and said well this is it's what's called a standing move which is when the the side wall flexes too much and and

fatigues and eventually fails so um if you raise the tire pressure significantly then you've you got a much better chance of surviving with these

damaged tirs so there's okay right we'll we'll start the race we'll bump the T Jack the tire presses right up we'll start the race and

we'll pit on La the is that not p early and hope that then we can go on to win the race from there and so we picked I can't remember which driving pissed

first which P pissed Mark and then Seb I think it that way around marks ts are in a slightly worse shape than sebs on lap eight and lap nine got away

with it they went on to finish one too now that I have to say because Spar is not an accident where a track where well any track but particularly Spar was one of those ones where if you had a

tire failer of high speed it could be a really nasty accident so that was what was what were your emotions on the pit wall then at the beginning of that race

just super tense super stressed am I being irresponsible here am I putting

undue risk on one or both drivers um quite a few within the team said no we shouldn't be doing this if you start from the pit

Lane um Market said of course you expect them to so you gave them full information so they knew exactly they knew exactly but it's not fair in a way because their competitive nature they're they're always going to say yeah we'll

take the risk we we're sing a world championship here so how did you decide we're going to go for this

h no huge sence to be perfectly honest all the data from pry they run some tests overnight Brad are brilliant on that I have to say they sometimes get

knocked but on that they were absolutely brilliant they did some tests overnight that suggested that that the raising the pressures

significantly would um certainly man mean that if it was a new T it wouldn't be damaged but with the camber angle we running while

you weren't able to say as our damaged TS whether they would continue to degrade or whether they would last those

eight or 10 laps um so it was kind of yeah it was a deep breath and off we go it was it was a

really hard one I was very I was I was definitely in tears in that race were you in in tears not not because of the win no no just the emotional relief of

of taking a risk and go away with it and you mentioned the risk reward strategy that you apply has that changed over the years

um like got mature and more risk adverse but probably not is the reality I'm too stupid for that yeah the thing is that you have to become comfortable and I

people that don't know Formula One won't understand this you you're asking people to drive a prototype car that's never really been driven in Anger as fast as they can around a track alongside 19

other people doing the same thing so do you ever become comfortable with with that think is always in the back of your mind I mean you know the FIA criticized

them in some ways but they've done a super job with enhancing the safety regulations um starting with the work of the late great Sid Watkins kind of with all his

work and and introducing side impact protection front impact protection the side headress lift out seats Etc Sid really

raised the game and changed it from being a a sport which in the in the '90s was getting better but still dangerous

94 being the the standout year around that sort of Monaco in the Monaco time has being horrendous um to a sport which

is still not 100% safe but the statistics are so markedly better than they used to be yeah listen I was hosting the race when MK web went upside

down in Valencia yeah and you know I was there in Silverstone when Sebastian had that huge accident as you've already mentioned what are those moments like for you watching

on ah I mean they're horrible they really are because I mean I think Max is Max is one at Silverstone is the last one where we thought is he okay is you

know is he badly hurt in there and then when he did come on the radio because he was so badly winded he was just grunting and you don't know what that means um he

was very sore he was he had quite nasty concussion he was very sore for a week after but he was okay so those sorts of

accidents still can happen and do happen um you know the ret SP in the form two race with

um uh anine Antoine yeah was horrific and it's never going to be 100% safe well it takes a unique sort of person to get behind the wheel of a Formula One

when you look back over your career which drivers have you most enjoyed working with um in no I think it' be very unfor

unfair to put them in order but um in roughly time Chron chronology if you like as opposed to ranking then form one

I think um Nigel Manel was very misunderstood but he was he was I got on so well no in

what way was he misunderstood I think a lot of people sort of did see the the winging brummy sort of um caricature of

him ands in truth I think know Nigel well enough hopefully you won't be insulted if he listens to this podcast and say there could be occasionally be elements of Truth to that but underneath

what a guy I mean he is first of all his presence in a car you could have painted his helmet White and the car white and' know who was

driving that car he just had that sort of ability to throw a car around that not many drivers had and self and just tremendous self-confidence um and a pleasure to

work with um Damon very different character but but again um you formed a very close working relationship and a good and a

very close friendship as well D still very close friend as is Mark Weber um and Mark's a great guy as we well you

know yeah he's been on the show yeah um DC of course another great man and a big influence on my life

um oh Sebastian still rang up the other day he was traveling through um through Norway with his with his motor home I keep hearing

rumors of Sebastian vetto back to formula one but I don't with that I no I can't see that no he won he's he's enjoying his his life he's he's moved on

he's doing different things and play play to him and Max foren does he ever show signs of cracking I've not seen it I don't think from where I've been

watching I think a little bit perhaps in his

championship Championship room 21 where the the in intensity particularly after Silverstone between on track between

Lewis and and Max became so intense um I think Max had very strong feelings on that Silverstone

accident uh and of course he'd been clear Championship leader going into Sil Stone we then him out of the race and then out more or less out of the race in

Hungary and he got hit by valry not intentional at all but still got hit and pretty much hardly scored any points So Gone from Easy Championship leaders to

now feeling a bit more pressure and um Mercedes managed to find quite a lot more Pace out of that car towards the end of the season so you it's always

easy easier for the hunter than the hunted and Max V staria I think to just feel a little bit of pressure from landed and hence that you know he was in

reality is probably lucky not to get a penalty from his driving in Brazil um the Abu Dhabi Abu Dhabi no it wasn't Abu Dhabi sorry the the one before

um Saudi Saudi where they they had a bit of a ding-dong that was a little bit more I think that was not clear but Max was probably a bit as of in Brazilian

trees so I think he's feeling us a bit but and and then czecho you know zingman czecho start if the teammates suddenly the teammate they've been beating

suddenly starts to get closer it's not the suddenly the teammates got better it's that the guy it's the same with Fernando and Felipe Masa towards the end of 2010

suddenly they they get closer because the lead dri is feeling the pressure and what do you do with the lead driver in that position so would you spend time with Max would you would you take it

upon yourself to talk to swim and see how he's doing and a little bit but I think Max is his own man he's he's he's he's incredibly

mature and and rounded and philosophical I think from the outside I don't not sure people fully appreciate and

understand Max just like they didn't with Sebastian as first of all there's this sort of demonization both of them suffered at times which I think it's very unfair um

and maybe that's also a little bit of the British media fun all this Sky have a huge influence around the world their viewing figures or their viewing is in

truly International but their coverage is quite nationalistic that I say and that can have Nuance

um it's I mean it's this thing that now with with journalism n t typically the I'm not saying they don't want to include this so don't take this

personally but but um no offense but there is that Trend to sort of either put put people on the pedestal or knock them down it's black or white

Heaven or Hell there's no Nuance so for people who based on what they've seen have an opinion of Max for stappen that you wouldn't agree with what what would you like to tell those people that they

might have wrong about Max I think that he's he he's very intelligent and he's got an incredible ability

to if it almost feels if he can drive the car and automatic he doesn't of course but he has so much he can drive the car and has so much processing power

left over that he can then think a lot about how he's driving the car how he's looking after tires how he's what he might need to do on the settings or if he doesn't if he's not

sure ask GP on the radi what he should be doing but highlighting the problems um reading the race I still fascinates me Fernando is another one that can do

that that seem to be able to read the race but I haven't got all the stuff in front of them how do they do that I don't know some of the I mean I know you can see a lot on the diamond vision and they they do that do that it's amazing

how the drivers can see the diamond Vision look up and see you know while they're driving a Grand Prix they're looking at the big screens that are up for the fans in the grand stand really

wow and then seeing the splits and the times and what's going on I mean and and is that common of is that a rare skill I think it's it's rare and it's only the

very top guys that can do it yeah remember David K actually saying to me the difference between him and Michael schumac when they were racing was what he called spare capacity yeah he said when he was at his Full Tilt in a

Formula 1 car that took everything out of him whereas Michael Sebastian vetto Max VPP and Lewis Hamilton Fernando Alonzo the true greats they have a bit left over would you say they do they have a huge amount of left

over they have huge mental Reserve left over I won't name drivers would be unfair but you can pretty much you can fairly easily see it if you watch a Formula One race you know a bit about it

you can see the ones that haven't got much capacity left over and they're the ones that typically also get them in soils and accidents and Tangles and so on and so forth because they just got

nothing left they can drive a car and they can do a qualifying lap but be gobs smack if those any of those guys

wi the championship can I ask how you feel Max internally dealt with what happened at the end of the 2021 season because the it still feels to me like Red Bull are blamed for something that

was totally not in your control you know this was an FIA race director decision that kind of reflects badly on Red Bull in an unfair

way you know I don't I think honestly Max is Max is so he has such such a a self assured so self assured and this is in a

positive way it's not in a negative way you know there's arrogance and they self assured Max is very self he's not arrogant but he is very self- assured and

self-confident and he's a deep thinker um but he doesn't let things like that I don't think it they don't really get to him um he's able to shut that off and

just get on with his job and get on with his task and do what he loves doing which is driving racing calls did it get to you no no it didn't I mean

not I find it actually I think it I think it got to Mercedes and it instead of saying okay

well accepting it and moving on they it it started to affect their psych which is an interesting one that's from the outside that might be

completely wrong in what way it just they couldn't Let It Go psychologically they couldn't let it go and you have to you have to

be you know we all have have it have a bad race perhaps should have won and the bloody thing broke down on the last lap or

whatever and I always have a a personal R if you like that be Absol I will be horrible to be around in the airport in that Sunday

evening but come Monday morning I got to wake up and be back on it I can't go back into the factory all miserable and down beat

I've my part of my position I suppose is to help to try to hope hopefully motivate everybody

not so just saying know it's so unfair and we robbed and all that doesn't help does it how much time do you spend reflecting almost

why is that suppose because I'm interested in the next thing really you want wrote you might say I'm lacking sentimentality but

I prefer to think of it as taking a clear ey view of the future yeah I think that's right it's see it's easy you know okay

so it's great when people come up and say I've won so many races and championships and whatever and and and and I suppose the book to an extent how

to build a car was that was quite a cathartic trip back which I'd never really done until I wrote that book um race it with the ghost riter and trees

Andrew um but generally speaking I'm not looking back I'm looking forward and I I

don't know why that is it's just I suppose it's it's just the Curiosity aspect to okay what's next so looking forward what do you still feel you have

to achieve in Formula 1 well I suppose I'm in the maybe this is just looking back now that

that I kind of feel as if I've been lucky enough to have some good stats and and managed to prove myself of

have a positive influence at three teams now and four teams if ICL L and house so so I don't feel as if I really have

to prove anything anymore I just want to do it for myself involved and enjoy it and and and hopefully um if I enjoy it the guys I'm I will be working with

we'll enjoy it as well finally one bit of reflection before we move on to our quick far questions you've designed cars that have won 13 drivers titles 12 Constructors

titles no one in the history of the sport has designed more successful cars than you what would what would a teenage Adrian make of that go sorry it's

probably not not very good [Laughter] English yeah absolutely I mean

Cy my dream was always to be a a designer I didn't know the word engine I don't but I was in my kind

of teens and so forth and I lost my way a little bit when I was when I kind of got chucked out of school at 16 and then got into bikes and girls and stuff and

but it came back as in as much as I knew I need to get to University and if I was to fulfill my motor racing dream I need

to get to University um I need a degree and then kind of I I remember my I struggled like mad to get in sorry

not into University and to get my first job um because it was the all the teams I wrote I could conf find addresses for most didn't apply

those that reply those that did say it catch 22 only take people's experience anyway finally um offered to job at Fitz

paers uh offered by Harvey Fel who was the tech director and and a legend in his own right and um I got to the end of

the first week I just couldn't believe I my luck I had as hard as Junior aist which turned out to also be senior aist the only aist I had no idea what I was

doing got to the end of end of the first month sorry the end of the first month didn't feel as if I was contributing anything and I got paid for

it I couldn't this wow I got paid and I've got no idea what I'm doing here um so I've always felt tremendously lucky

to to to be here um and and I feel I try to remain humble

because of that because I do feel lucky R can I ask you a final question because it refers to a comment you made at the start about deciding for your

next role that you didn't want it to become all consuming and in This brilliant interview that You' given us agent you've spoken about the

cost a person level of your in terms of your marriages and the impact of your profession on your personal life how have you learned to be able to separate

the two now so that you can do a good job without it having the impact on you as a person I think there's two aspects

to that one is if work's going badly trying not to bring it home which is not easy because he yeah you had a bad day

at work if things have gone bad L you you you don't understand why perhaps or if it's just an argument somebody that's easy but if you don't understand

that you're feeling stupid you know sometimes I feel so stupid I can't understand something um one of the things that often goes in my brain is I wish I was a bit cleverer because you

kind of if you can't understand something it's FR frustrating and um so trying not to carry that frustration

home and then take it out on your loved ones and your family um is I think one key aspect that's not I'm certainly not there

but Amanda will definitely back that up unfortunately um and then the other aspect of course is the time management and the time Management's actually every

bit is difficult if not more difficult because it can be an all consuming job if you you let it and so I've always

tried to I try to be very efficient with my time but in striving to be efficient that can also mean it makes it

very diff can make it very difficult for me to relax because I'm trying to be so efficient and TR to be so conscious of managing my time then if I'm doing

nothing I feel should be doing something feel a bit guilty so it's trying to control all those sorts of emotions really very good right are you ready for some quick fire questions I'll give it

I'm not only very good at these you will you'll be great at these yeah so first of all the three nonnegotiable behaviors that are most important to

you uh I think trying to be truce yourself is is the first and most important one uh trying

to be objective with one's own strengths and weaknesses um which isn't easy and see

that all the time where uh people in the workforce they they might be very good at one area but it's they want to it's

not they don't recognize that they want to be doing something different and they they're going do that and then they're not very good at this and they get very frustrated and unhappy so I think being

comfortable and with what you feel is your strength and then working to that I think trying to trying to

remain calm under pressure and and measured and you know not not spark up my my

father could have a bit of a temper on him at times and I probably inherited to that to an extent and trying

to make sure I I don't if if I say something i' I've kind of thought about it of this it's not just my my KN joke

try to always be open to open and honest with people I think that's kind of both professionally at the workplace and also privately nice what's your biggest

strength and your greatest weakness my strength I I I would say my biggest strength is is and this this subjective isn't it

whether other people say this all of me or L I've got no idea but if I try to look at that I would say humility trying

to you know it' be very easy for this to to kind of go to my head I suppose and think I'm the greatest things that slic bread

which I definitely don't think that and you see that kind of with most with formal one then tends to attract a lot of people from music and film

and the observation I would have is that the people you then meet from those two industries invariably divide in two it's either completely gone to their head and

they're actually not very life to talk to or they could be sitting in the pub having a chat with a pine beer and a pack of Chris and you'd be having a

great time and I try to remain the fet of Chris and the finder beer um weakness I think just trying to still

feel as if I can balance things better probably yeah what advice would you give to a teenage Adrian just starting out on his journey in

life enjoy it it has to be enjoyed I don't think there's any pointing going back and saying I could have done this differently or I could have done that differently because that requires a

crystal ball um but I think I think one of the things I do regret about Motor Racing is it it probably makes you a bit hard

because of the the knocks and bumps you get have inevitably have along the way you you end up you have to be resilient um which I suppose is the strength that perhaps I should have

mentioned maybe that would have been the better third one um you have to be resilient you have to be able to bounce back because you will to get knocked

down many times but the the the the the penalty of those all those knockdowns and and is that and what go what you see

around you and then losses at and being most personal the biggest one of course but they do toughen you up they make you

hard and so some are that that sort of naive teenage outlook on life that I had

um where you know you kind of was a bit flower power but you just want to do good to the plet and you want to

be helping people and and and so forth it's it's easy to end up just becoming a bit

too hard as is he anywhere I can describe it you kind of manding my wife she often you know somebody

somebody passes that we've known I'll be upset of course but an hour later I've been on to the next thing

she's and she feels I'm very kind of callous in that respect and she's probably right I guess that's and she and she observes it with motoracing people um I think that is one of the

things it does unfortunately do to you the final question and aan is what was your one Golden Rule to living a high performance life I think trying to remain

balanced because it's it's foral one is if you like it as a high performance life which it is it's a it's a busy life it's a very busy life

um it's easy

to lose balance of trying to be focused on how to deliver more forms the car um

versus all the other aspects of life that we all know so it's trying to yeah balance on is the most important thing very

good congratulations on the new job thank you I love the fact that you're like when we talk about it the big smile appears on your face and you kind of like as excited as ever so that's it

working in Formula 1 into your 70s who would have thought I know if you know if you said that to me turn years ago I just said shoot me well enjoy every minute of it and thank you

Jake thank you for so much for your time that was fascinating yeah thank you it's been a privilege loved it thank you man that was really good love love that