AI Insider: The Fastest Way To Use AI Agents In Your Business, Content & Life (Open Claw & Claude)

They see it every single day that non-engineers are crushing it. The

ability to spin up your website used to take 20,000, $10,000, $50,000 and it now costs a 20 to $40 subscription. I mean,

that's absolutely insane. There are ways to make six figures right now just learning these things really deeply and teaching others about it.

What's the step one that someone can take today? My step one is going to piss

take today? My step one is going to piss people off because if someone's watching this video with the belief that they're just behind when

it comes to AI, they're not a coder, they're not a software engineer, they're not technical. And honestly, whenever

not technical. And honestly, whenever they see AI even come up in the news or on television or on their social media, they have this feeling of just anxiety and overwhelm

for that human being. What is going to be the value to them of listening to this conversation to the end?

First, I can't be the person who's gonna like rid all of your anxiety. Also, I

have it every day, too. People who have been in this space for even longer than I have have it every day. My goal is that even with that feeling of anxiety that you get a little bit of a better sense of where AI is today and how to

still take action. Like, I think one of the most important things with the pace of change that we're seeing is that you're allowed to be anxious and still take action. And both of those things

take action. And both of those things can coexist in the same world.

When we spoke last week, one of the things uh you mentioned and I wrote it down when you said it, you said that I've been posting content every single day about AI for the last decade.

Almost last second. Yeah.

And and it was interesting to me because I think there's so many people that are getting in this space now and are like experts because it's trendy and it's like a hot space and it's like the

buzzword of our time. You've been doing it for a long time. And so I just wanted to kind of rewind and give people for you to give people that context.

Yeah.

10 years ago.

Yeah.

What makes Ali Miller make the decision that like, okay, I'm going to post about this every day. Like it's that big of a deal.

I started posting about AI. Yeah. Almost

a decade ago. No, no, a decade ago now.

um because I could see that the vast majority of content was deeply technical and kind of breaking down how certain algorithms worked and it was a lot of

engineers on YouTube which is amazing content and so helpful but the ability to kind of sit in classrooms or workplaces and get a sense of historical

patterns to kind of figure out what cycle we're in and to know that it felt like in the next couple years after that point that AI was coming like a title

wave and that no one in the business world was prepped for this. And I just thought at the very least I can help.

And so I started posting on LinkedIn.

This is like before LinkedIn influencers were ever a thing and now I've accidentally become one. But it was a um

it was like a very loud responsibility ringing me in. And

and I think I still feel that. I mean,

there's there's a lot of stress in the space now, but I feel like it is my duty and the reason that I'm like literally still here on this earth is to help

millions, tens of millions, hopefully a billion people navigate this transformation.

And thankfully, I've been able to see adoption patterns over the last decade.

Yeah. You know, you mention this mission that you have helping a billion people like navigate this technology and you call it a responsibility.

And so I wanted you to go a bit deeper into that. If we project hopefully to a

into that. If we project hopefully to a time in the future and you're successful in that mission, what do you see as the impact on people on the people that

follow you that see your content? What

what is the impact of that? My hope is that before we reach a billion that I've not only empowered individuals because that feels great, but the best part of

educating others on AI is when they realize that it's so much more powerful for their own lives when they also teach it to other people. So an individual on

a team versus an entire team using AI, it it's like one versus 2x, right? The

impact that you can have for each person. Um, so I hope that we'll have

person. Um, so I hope that we'll have more uh like groupbased impact, system based impact. Uh, I get really excited

based impact. Uh, I get really excited by like human collaboration systems. Yeah. You know, one one of the reasons I

Yeah. You know, one one of the reasons I was so excited to have this conversation because you you mentioned gatekeeping and I've seen it with the videos that we've done on this topic of there are so

many people that are like curious and open-minded when it comes to AI, but also have this belief that it's not for them because they they don't come from this technology like deep tech

coding background.

Yeah. And so being able to kind of like just open that conversation up given how transformative this technology is going to be.

Yeah. I'm in the middle right now of teaching hundreds of executives AI agents. We're we're in the middle of

agents. We're we're in the middle of this program right now. I taught the first session. It was how agents work,

first session. It was how agents work, how to build them, how to set up documents that personalize it for yourself. This whole session was 60

yourself. This whole session was 60 minutes. Within the first 48 hours, all

minutes. Within the first 48 hours, all of these people, all of whom are non-engineers, some are consultants, some are entrepreneurs, some are exeacts at Fortune 500 companies, they're all

building their own autonomous proactive agents, zero code, right? And it's the ability to go into Cloud Code or Codeex, Perplexity, Gemini, whatever, any one of

these systems, give it a little bit of information about yourself, a little bit of information about how you want it to behave, and a little bit of information about the actions you want it to take.

And yeah, maybe it's a little annoying to figure out where all those files go and how to format it or whatever, but these systems are now good enough to also talk to it in natural language to

have it help you help it. And we weren't at that level three years ago, right?

Like you could talk to chatbt and say, "All your answers are really short. Make

them longer." And it would remember that for that one conversation you were having. But we have these systems now

having. But we have these systems now that can hold context, that can hold memory. And so all these people, they're

memory. And so all these people, they're building daily briefings so that every single morning they have a rundown of their calendar, daily action items. There's one woman who put her entire to-do list in notion and every single

day kicks off Claude to literally review her to-do list and take on as many tasks as possible. There was a woman in in the

as possible. There was a woman in in the group who's like obsessed with this chicken truck that comes to her neighborhood. Yeah.

neighborhood. Yeah.

But like never remembers this chicken truck's schedule. And so every single

truck's schedule. And so every single day she just gets like a readout of the chicken truck's schedule. Another person

loves Lenny Kravitz and gets like a readout of his daily concert. I mean,

it's it's crazy, but all these like I don't need a chicken truck. I don't need a Lenny Kravitz readout. I love the idea that we have proactive memory based contextbased agents that require zero coding that you can talk to a natural

language that any single person can build and they can help solve the chicken or Lenny Kravitz problems that you have.

Yeah. You know what? We're we're and to your point, I think we're in a really interesting time where, and this is what I've seen from just listening to people, there's almost like two worlds. You have

these uh like AI tech heavy almost like insider power users who have like seven AI agents running their workflows and their would be very low but yes

even more you have a better sense even than me and then on the other hand I think you have almost like the everyday person who's maybe heard of chat GPT or or used

it is using it really like they use Google and so and and They're like worlds apart and I find almost the the mentality is also the feeling around AI. I think the

power user has like all this excitement and this opportunity and then the everyday person I hear a lot more anxiety.

Yeah.

Can you kind of just speak to that disconnect? Mhm.

disconnect? Mhm.

What is it that the power user is so excited by when they think about AI and how it can be in their life versus more so what I hear with everyday people and

also in the media which is like fear anxiety.

This is going to take my job. Why is

there that disconnect in your mind?

Yeah. So, so first both groups do have anxiety. this idea that like the super

anxiety. this idea that like the super users have totally figured it out and everything in their life is perfect and is tied in a perfect bow and they just have AI working for them all the time.

It's not quite the case. Um so neither group is is alone in that feeling of anxiety. I think actually the big

anxiety. I think actually the big difference is not that the super users have seen opportunities that the surface users have not yet seen. I think it's the mindset approach for how they even

look at these tools. This is what I've learned over the last three and a half years of teaching these things again to board chairs all the way down to like interns at companies which is if you

look at this thing as a box where you have to memorize buttons and you have to tell yourself like ah yes in order to have a live video conversation with tragedy I must hit the bottom right corner and then hit the video button and

that is how I function. If you treat it like a tool where you are learning the motions and buttons, then you will keep it in that box and you're going to hear

these stories of people building 30, 100, whatever number agents and going, "How on earth is that person able to do that when I'm sitting here memorizing a

button?" What the super users have taken

button?" What the super users have taken in and and spun on is that AI is not a

tool. It's AI as this as this operating

tool. It's AI as this as this operating system for how you handle your work, how you think of your personal life. And

that when you think of it as this wider enablement, one, you start to get way more excited to learn about the really annoying, you know, backend type features like what should I title this

file? Um, but the second is you get a

file? Um, but the second is you get a little bit more creative and wide about where to use AI. So, if you thought of it as a tool, you might realize that you

can take a photo of any sign in any grocery store and translate it into 80 languages or ask it for nutritional facts or ask it for similar snacks, right? All of those are information

right? All of those are information gathering. As you move along the

gathering. As you move along the spectrum, because it's a spectrum, not a binary. As you move through the

binary. As you move through the spectrum, you might go, okay, first I was doing information gathering. Now,

I'm going to do a little bit smarter.

Like, let's say I'm going to do an example. You've got all of your podcast

example. You've got all of your podcast transcripts, right? You've done like

transcripts, right? You've done like hundreds of episodes at this point.

Let's say you take all your podcast transcripts. If you were a Surface user,

transcripts. If you were a Surface user, which I know you're not, you would give these systems your entire podcast set, the transcripts, or maybe even a couple,

and you would say, "How many people out of this batch work in AI?" Or pull interesting quotes about AI from these episodes or how many people focused on

self-help and who were they, right? you

would do an information gathering. If we

move up a little along that spectrum, maybe you'll compare and contrast and say, uh, you know, I'm Callum. How has

my thinking changed over the last 100 episodes? Have I become a stronger or

episodes? Have I become a stronger or weaker interviewer? Obviously, stronger.

weaker interviewer? Obviously, stronger.

Why or why not? Give me proof. How do I compare to maybe other podcasters? What

is my competitive advantage? Forecast my

next 10 guests. And then if you really keep going up, then you're going to say, "Wait a second. I'm gonna be more future looking, forward-looking. I'm gonna come

looking, forward-looking. I'm gonna come to it and say, I want an astronaut as my next guest." Right? Knowing every single

next guest." Right? Knowing every single thing, you know, over the last 200 episodes. Find me the exact astronauts

episodes. Find me the exact astronauts that I should bring on. Research all of them. Research all the podcasts that

them. Research all the podcasts that they've been on. Forecast which one is most likely to come onto my podcast. run

10 different simulations by that person to see what type of conversation we can have. Then run 20 cold emails based on

have. Then run 20 cold emails based on those episodes to then figure out the six sentences that I should send to their publicist that's most likely going to convince them and send it and then

follow up with them if I like the ability to immediately go into goal oriented and actionoriented stuff. That

is what this spectrum is. It's going

from tool into operating system. It's

going from information gathering to actionoriented. It's going from single

actionoriented. It's going from single prompt into just wider context about your life. And and that's the shift,

your life. And and that's the shift, right? It is a full mindset shift.

right? It is a full mindset shift.

There's nothing technologically that is holding Surface users back. Nothing.

Because I see it every single day that non-engineers are crushing it and that they're able to do it. It's just that they've set aside a couple hours and they've figured out that this is a

spectrum that they can surf along and that's literally it.

You know, when you when you mention uh non-engineers crushing it, like you've seen so many examples of it and I even think about we have a lot of people that that watch this show that want to start

businesses uh like they're they're either entrepreneurs or they're aspiring entrepreneurs. Are there any examples

entrepreneurs. Are there any examples that come to mind that you can share where actually using AI in the way that you just described has actually pushed

people towards like starting their first company that actually took off or building a product like what comes to mind?

Yeah, I think so there's a couple different types of companies, right? You

could start a software company, you could start a services company or maybe you already have a product or service company and you're just trying to scale that. So, I worked with one founder who

that. So, I worked with one founder who had about 12 clients and she could only service 12 clients at once because her time was fully maxed out. In chatting

with her and figuring out what the bottlenecks were about her business, I learned that the bottleneck was not in actually servicing them. It was like the massive amount of lead intake in

qualifying the right clients in uh the initial kind of information sharing. And

so she was able to go on to I think she went on to lovable and built out an entire interview system to then give to potential clients. And that's also not

potential clients. And that's also not really where the trust was built anyways. It was like filling out a form

anyways. It was like filling out a form with the doctor. And so these potential clients go through an entire interview process. And she was able to set up a

process. And she was able to set up a second tier cohort-based thing. She went

from 12 clients to I think something like 35 36. She 3xed her revenue just by having AI be a scaling mechanism on the things that she was already bottlenecked on.

I have other, you know, friends who are coaches who have set up like AI twins of themselves so that these clients, she didn't grow the number of clients, but

she was able to increase what they were charged because they didn't just have the one call with her every two weeks or month. They were helped 247 around the

month. They were helped 247 around the clock with every single one of her pieces of content and her private data sources that she was putting into these

systems so these people could get help.

Right. I also I have a another friend who runs a a product that is both physical and software. She has several

agents that are run through largely OpenClaw that she might have a React engineer and she might have this type of engineer and that type of engineer all helping her on the software product

working alongside her actual software engineers. And then she also has open

engineers. And then she also has open claws that help her in her personal life. And like I can I just tell you

life. And like I can I just tell you like the craziest thing that she shared?

Go for it.

She uh she's a very busy mother. She's

at home. She's staring at her desk and underneath the desk is just like hell of cable management and she has this OpenClaw on her phone and decides to

just try it out. She takes a photo of the messy cables, sends it to OpenClaw and just says, "Fix this." Okay, this is

an online only AI agent that she has fed something physical and has said, "Hey, fix this." This system goes online onto

fix this." This system goes online onto Next Door, post job openings to fix this cable thing, finds and narrows down potential people to help, sends those

options back to my friend Katherine.

Katherine reviews them, picks the guy, sends it back to OpenClaw. Then she

forgets about it and at 6:30 p.m.

someone knocks on her door. She opens

the door and it's the guy there to fix the cables. It was done in 30 minutes

the cables. It was done in 30 minutes for $30. She Venmoed the guy and it took

for $30. She Venmoed the guy and it took less than 12 hours start to finish with like minutes of her own work and she had been putting this task off for a year. M

the ability for AI agents to not just help us in our business in a you know product and coaching and service scale way or a software way and scalability,

but the ability for AI agents to take meaningless crap off of our plates in our personal lives so that we have more cognitive magic to be able to apply to

the rest of our life. That's incredible.

That is incredible. And so we're going to see AI calling people in the real world, bringing humans into our space, hiring humans, helping us recruit. We're

going to see AI helping us scale software, helping us take a website and create an iOS app out of it. We're going

to see people all have their own AI persona that you can scale out your own work so that you can service clients while you're sleeping. All of that is happening all at the exact same time with the exact same technology.

Okay. You you just shed it. so

eloquently. You No, you said it so eloquently like the the agents chat GPT and and the fact that the way that people are using it is

allowing it allows you to customize an experience.

Uh which like you can charge higher prices off the back of that. It also

allows you just to save time. Yeah.

And to your point, you have more of this like cognitive creative magic that you can bring to your job or your business.

But you know what? because I'm so cognizant of where I was like 3 to six months ago when it came to this.

Yeah.

Can you explain to people clearly the difference between chat GPT which I think most people have heard of like they have over 200 million users in the

US like the majority of people have used chat GPT and then you mentioned lovable which is like there's a distinction between that and chatg and people might

be hearing that name for the first time and then open claw which is something that like I'm getting my head around right now which actually has this autonomous element.

I think one of the things when it comes to AI, the space is moving so quickly that it's like I was just learning about chat GPT and now she's talking about like, you know, it called the service guy and

he turned up and fixed the cable. Can

you can you explain those three different things and then also the evolution and how quickly things are moving right now?

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So, let's first start with just like what are all these different tools. Um,

you can think about it as some tools are going to be horizontal where they can really do anything for you within whatever their parameters are and some tools that are like really really

specific. In the horizontal space, you

specific. In the horizontal space, you have some platforms that are more chatty. So, chatbt is singlethreaded

chatty. So, chatbt is singlethreaded chat bots for lack of a better word.

It's an assistance. The ability to ask a question, come back. It can read your email. It can access the internet. You

email. It can access the internet. You

can upload documents or images to be able to ask. You can have live video conversations while you're walking through a store. All of that is the

paradigm of the AI assistant, right?

Like retrieving of knowledge. Okay. The

world that we walked into like early to mid 2025 and later is agents. The

ability for AI to actually take action.

So, not just read our email, but like reply to the last 15 emails or not just look at the things that we're looking at in a store over video, but like also go

ahead and figure out out of these five which one's the best and order it for me and ship a second version to my sister so that both of us can have the same product. Right? It's the ability to make

product. Right? It's the ability to make purchases, to send things, to edit things, to deploy, to post on your behalf, to literally take action in the real world, to use tools, and to

complete real tasks. I would even go so far, this is a hot take, as to say that none of the assistant things completed tasks for me, right? Like, sure, I could

have had it write 15 of my emails. I

still had to send every single one of them, right? I still had to be beholdened to

right? I still had to be beholdened to like sitting at my computer and going through this whole thing. It didn't take meaningful work off my plate because systems can now take action like open

claw like cloud code or codeex. We now

have AI systems that can take actual tasks off of our plate. So we now have things that feel much more like personal assistants or chiefs of staff that can

check the entire box. And that shift really started in about March 2025 because of model performance, because these models can now reason through

lengthy steps to be able to complete a task. And they're very accurate in

task. And they're very accurate in figuring out what those steps could be.

And they're very uh performant in figuring out what tools to use and actually using the tools in the correct way. OpenClaw being much more autonomous

way. OpenClaw being much more autonomous and proactive and having systems that kind of update its own memory in a lot stronger of a way than things like

clawed code or codecs. But all these systems are improving every single day.

Yeah. You know, I'm I'm going to share my experience.

Yeah.

Um and I'm nowhere near as much of an expert as you.

No, listen. you are going to inspire millions of people just by saying the next sentence that you say because when I when I first started using and it was chatbt it was very

transactional and I remember getting uh one of the episodes or conversations that we filmed for this show and the guest talking about how uh a lot of people use chatbt like Google they ask

it like um I don't know where is this and it spits out an answer it's this very like input output transactional relationship that's where I started

I then kind of moved on to still within chatbt using AI as like an adviser almost like a a counselor. It's giving

you advice on things or you're pasting in transcripts. Oh, what can I learn

in transcripts. Oh, what can I learn from this? Or it's giving advice and

from this? Or it's giving advice and expertise.

In the last few weeks, I've gotten deeper and deeper into open claw. It's

like we're getting to the point that AI is an almost like an employee. Like it

can do tasks. It's you on board it and then it goes similar to what an employee would do. And so I actually want to

would do. And so I actually want to start with kind of that first part of things that going from transactional to even using it as an adviser because I'm

so cognizant that for a lot of people listening when I said that most people use chat GPT like Google they're like okay that's me and so it feels like there's this

huge gap of like how do I get from where I am now to the point where I'm using AI to actually handle entire tasks. asks like

it's almost it's a it's a mindset shift.

Absolutely.

And so I think one of the things that we that you and I can do which is so powerful is how do we make that mindset shift real and practical today? And so

if someone's listening to this and they want to just start developing the way that they're using AI and these tools, what would you say is the step one of

like okay today I'm using it transactionally. I'm using it like

transactionally. I'm using it like Google, but I want to just make a little bit of progress towards using it in some of the ways that you've described.

Yeah.

What's the What's the step one that someone can take today?

My my step one is going to piss people off because I'm actually going to say that your step one has nothing to do with AI. I'm going to say walk away from

with AI. I'm going to say walk away from your computer and I'm going to say pull out a whiteboard, a notepad or Otter AI or whatever if you want to dictate and

literally just think about your own goals and who you are. One of the biggest superpowers in the AI age is knowing who you are and what you want and what you don't want because these

systems can help you better accomplish your goals in a faster way, maybe a cheaper way, and in a stronger or better way. So taking one big step back and

way. So taking one big step back and saying here are my goals. Here's what I actually want. Like that is the correct

actually want. Like that is the correct step one because then when you're going to these systems maybe before you would ask things like what's the best best podcast studio in New York, right? But

if I'm looking at this set of goals and it says I want to interview an astronaut or I want to have a global podcast that takes me to all seven continents in the

next year. I'm not gonna ask a question

next year. I'm not gonna ask a question that says, "What's the best podcast studio?" I'm gonna give it all of my

studio?" I'm gonna give it all of my goals and all of my context and I'm going to say, "Okay, now you're my COO.

Let's go back and forth and figure out like think through 20 possible actions that I could take. Score them on likelihood of revenue, likelihood of impact, and creativity. Walk me through

your prioritization and ranking. Pick

the top three. Walk me through the first five actions for each of them. Tell me

exactly how much each one of those steps should cost. Tell me how long each of

should cost. Tell me how long each of those steps will take. Take on as many of those tasks as you can find. Tell me

what you need help with. And so suddenly we went from going tool first and then asking to going problem first and then we just happen to have this unbelievable

tool with PhDs like level of intelligence that we can lean on and use and and help ourselves with. But so many people read the news and see some

awesome feature and start tool first. If

you took a big step back and you said the most successful people in the world are using this and going problem first, the most successful businesses are going problem first. And you flipped it on its

problem first. And you flipped it on its head, you would be in a completely different place with your AI usage in days.

Yeah. You know, I I I um I can feel the passion when you you talk about it like the the energy.

Yeah. Also the frustration when I hear that people are still using it as Google cuz I just want to be like this could change your life. Yeah.

Can you can you share with people and and I I love the way that you framed it.

Instead of going tool first, it's actually problem first.

And so can you almost take us down memory lane?

the first time that for you you actually made that shift like you saw in your own life like going problem first with an AI

tool and the impact that that had where you had this moment where you're like oh this is how I'm going to do it from now on like what was kind of that light bulb moment for you when you were like this

is the right approach to take to get the maximum benefit with AI I'm a former product manager and so when you're dealing with engineers and you have this unbelievable team. You

still have to say no to some features, right? Because they only help a couple

right? Because they only help a couple customers, they would take too long, they're too expensive, whatever. And so

you have this thing called a parking lot, which is like, wouldn't it be cool if we could one day maybe make this feature happen? And you just keep it as

feature happen? And you just keep it as this like graveyard of brilliance that you can't address. And so GBT4 comes out and I have a parking lot for my own

business, my own ideas, anything that I want to take on that I didn't have time for, that I didn't have people for, that maybe I didn't have skills for, money, whatever the thing was that was holding me back. And I look at that parking lot

me back. And I look at that parking lot and I go, what if I just took a picture of this and just gave it to this model and just said like, what can you do to cross off as many things on this as possible? Get me to like the highest

possible? Get me to like the highest possible level of completion on any of these things. And then even when it

these things. And then even when it says, "Okay, I'm done." And say, "No, I know you can do more. Give me at least 10% more. Give me at least 50% more."

10% more. Give me at least 50% more."

Or, "No, get more creative. Do more."

So, it was this idea that I already had this waiting room of things that I had been aching for in my life. Again, goal

oriented, problem oriented. And the

models had this moment where they got good enough to start with a a decently vague description, break it down, prompt

itself, reason through what it could actually do, and then in recent months be able to take action to actually cross it off my list.

Yeah. You know, I I I think it's so um powerful because I've realized this even in myself is that a lot of the times on in life, you can tell when someone's like on the offensive and like being

front-footed versus on the defensive and like waiting. And I think one of the

like waiting. And I think one of the things that uh it can be demoralizing is when you have so many aspirations and ambitions but because of uh time and

commitments and responsibilities that you already have whether that's your family, your friends, your job, maybe it's your relationship, you constantly feel on the defensive like you're waiting like I don't have enough time to

get to these things. And so I think about the the power and that shift that you mentioned of like being able to go on the front foot partially because it's

saving you so much time and it's also giving you like a level of insight that you can action on these things right now. And so one of the things that I

now. And so one of the things that I wanted to to talk to you about cuz you you mentioned that shift and I I agree.

I think most people have used chat GPT and had that kind of light bulb moment where they're like this is different.

This is something a bit different.

Right now we're going through or at least I'm seeing it a lot on social media and I've done it myself. People

are shifting from or a lot of people are shifting from chat GPT to Claude. Can

you kind of give that context? First of

all, the differences between the two and then in your mind like why is that happening and is it even justified? Like

is there an actual benefit to someone that's listening at home taking everything they have on chat GBT and putting it to Claude?

Big big questions. First, I would just like to say whatever AI you want to use, just use something, right? like just for the love of God, please start. So,

Chachet comes out end of 2022. Claude

was a fast follow. They've been out for basically the same amount of time. Um,

Chachet has hundreds of millions of active users, right? Claude is a lot smaller. Two years ago, 99% of my work

smaller. Two years ago, 99% of my work was in ChadBt. Today, 99% of my work is in Claude Code. I think if you're trying to be this crazy optimizer, sure, you

might be switching between tools. I

literally use all these systems, but I think what a lot of people are realizing is that as we move into this like AI is an operating system, AI is a co-orker, AI is a teammate. That vibes

matter. They're all trying to go toward the same zones, but um they're all built a little differently. Vibes tend to be what people are picking one over the other for. and all of these companies

other for. and all of these companies are trying to roll out the same features and they're all a couple months behind each other.

Yeah.

It's so interesting when you when you share the context um and the point about vibes and it's it's there's there's like metrics for vibes.

Yeah.

Like yes, we can measure exactly how good it is at coding and exactly how it compares on over 1,000 tasks across nine different industries and 44 occupations and what there are people that are

literally just measuring vibes.

Yeah. and and and what you say is so true and it's it was my experience of when I first started using Claude versus Chat GPT chatbt is far more agreeable.

Um it was and maybe they'll change that in the next week, you know, who knows? But for

now yeah it's it's it's so fast moving to your point.

Uh whereas Claude was more like pushing me on my point of view.

And so, and can I just say one other thing?

Go for The thing that makes all these systems personalized to you is yes you giving it a document that says here's what I believe in here's what I want to do but also you might have had three years of conversations with Chaji where

it built up a whole lot of memories about you and people were having way more personalized conversations with Chaji versus any other player what we thought several months ago was like

there's no way that we will be able to replicate this there's no way if you picked one model or one system three years ago there's no way you can Claude proved that you can switch. And

it's literally that you give one prompt into whatever program or system that you're in today. And you just go, "Hey, Chad, can you tell me every single big thing that you know about me and the way that I work and what I like and what I

don't like and what was really important and Chad gives you a very long document readout." And you take that document,

readout." And you take that document, you download it, you paste it into whatever system you want to move into, and you go, "Here's me. Let's rock." M

like that ability to port things over.

You can't do that with Gmail into Yahoo or vice versa. Like it is so hard to move data from one place to another. And

it is shockingly easy to take years of personalization and customization and move it and get I don't know 85% of the performance in any other tool.

Yeah. It like it's literally uh it's like two minutes with the process that you just outlined.

Yeah. Um,

and there's prompts that you can already copy and paste. Like, you don't even have to write your own prompt. These

these systems want you to switch on to them. So, of course, they're going to

them. So, of course, they're going to make it as low friction as possible to not only use the tools, but to switch from whoever their competitors are.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I So, because we we've spoken about kind of the LLMs, right? Like Chat

GPT, Claude, even you mentioned Gemini.

I wanted to um I wanted to talk about vibe coding for a second.

And the fact that uh you even got bit excited when I said that we've just been talking about the word vibe so much. You've got a shirt that says stay delusional. Like I love it.

The vibes are good right now.

The vibes are great.

Um I wanted to um because there's been a there's been a bit of a shift and I even uh I was on your Instagram this morning and I saw an article that you did with Inc.

um about how you're using clawed code uh in kind of like your everyday to to help you run almost like your day-to-day and it's one of those things where

when I looked at claw claude code and I came across it it looked so technical like the the terminal and like even the terminology that people are using can

you kind of describe for the everyday person who's non-technical Mhm. Mhm.

Mhm. Mhm.

What is what is claude code first of all? What's the distinction between that

all? What's the distinction between that and just claude and then what is the significance of how they could use it in their daytoday?

So claude code claude co-worki anti-gravity perplexities computers all these things are wrappers with a lot of complexity

but wrappers around the LLM. So around

these models like claude opus 4.6 six or GPT 5.4 and it gives it a a zone to run and take

actions for you. And it's just a zone where it can connect into tools like Gmail and Notion and ASA and Shopify.

It's a zone where you can talk to it and ask questions. It's a zone where you can

ask questions. It's a zone where you can set up things to be scheduled so that something can happen every day at 7 a.m.

And whether that zone is a desktop app or that zone is a terminal or a mobile app or whatever else comes out, it's

just giving it a box to be able to actually run. So that is what these

actually run. So that is what these systems are. What can they actually do

systems are. What can they actually do for you? It's going back to what we were

for you? It's going back to what we were talking about about assistant versus agent. the ability to access all the

agent. the ability to access all the documents that are sitting on your literal computer, the ability to be more proactive because you can schedule these

things. Up until now, you couldn't

things. Up until now, you couldn't schedule things in Claude. You could

kind of schedule things inside of ChadBt where you could like have it run a Google search basically every single morning, but we now have the ability to set up agentbased tasks. So, let's say

that every single morning, uh, you let's say that you're, you know, launching a secondary podcast. Um, so

you have this amazing one and you want to launch a second one that's all about underwater adventures. Okay. Maybe you

underwater adventures. Okay. Maybe you

want it to research brand new things and research in the marine biology space.

And so maybe that is automated, but you're not just having it research marine biology and coming back. you are

saying, "Here's the exact format I want it to come in. Go ahead and use these specific tools. Actually, send me a uh

specific tools. Actually, send me a uh Gmail every single morning with the recap in this exact format in HTML." So,

these systems because they can write unbelievable code, can connect into tools and can complete tasks that

require code like giving you a beautiful email back or uh editing your website.

There are people who every single morning either screenshot or automatically will go onto their Google Trends or Google Analytics page, screenshot how their business is

performing, put it into a cloud code or a cloud co-work say here's my business today. Give me five suggestions on what

today. Give me five suggestions on what we should do. And then maybe you're like I really like suggestion three do it right and going back and forth and actually taking action. That's the big

change. M okay. There's so many ways I

change. M okay. There's so many ways I could take this.

Yeah. And by the way, terminals, yes, are ugly and gross and plain and even just the font, right, is kind of annoying. Again, I've taught now

annoying. Again, I've taught now thousands of business professionals how to use the terminal and within 48 hours, they figured it out. I think cloud co-work and things like cloud co-work

are now good enough that you can start in cloud co-work and actually not touch cloud code and you're fine. Mhm.

So, Claude Co-work is a beautifully designed desktop app that has nice little boxes everywhere. Um, and so you can give it a task and you can track all the steps that it's going to take and

the progress through those things. You

can literally have it take action for you on the internet. I can say, "Go and find me five Airbnbs in Cleveland for a friend group of eight people and we need

this many bedrooms or whatever." and I can literally watch it navigating my Chrome browser for me. But I can do all that from within Co-work. So just think

of it instead of you telling a single threaded boring chat thread, hey, what's the question? Here's the answer.

the question? Here's the answer.

Awesome. You're instead queuing up tasks, right? Like that is the core

tasks, right? Like that is the core component. Not questions, but tasks. And

component. Not questions, but tasks. And

so you open up co-work and every single time you open up that blank thing, just think, what task would I give to a chief of staff? What task would I give to a

of staff? What task would I give to a senior sales rep? What task would I give to my financial adviser? Right. Along

with an actual professional and just ceue up tasks instead of questions.

Yeah. You know, it's so powerful. And

the the Instagram post that I read, the caption was, "Here's how I use clawed code to run my day."

So, can you can you just share with people? We're going to get into the how,

people? We're going to get into the how, but can you just share with people some of the examples cuz you shared a number of them across both like your content and in your business that you're using Claude code daily?

Yeah.

Can you just share some of those examples and why it's been impactful to you?

I'll I'll start with one and then depending on how long the answer is, you can tell me if you want to hear more.

Um, I create all my own content and it is a lot to be able to crank out daily content on AI that is always changing

for the last decade. So I maybe will in like read some news article. I might

read a 200page research report, but I want a way to put the actual idea out into the world. And maybe sometimes I want it to be a short tweet. Maybe

sometimes I want it to be a long LinkedIn post. Maybe sometimes I want it

LinkedIn post. Maybe sometimes I want it to be an article. Maybe sometimes it's just a recap for a few execs that I advise. Right? So I built out an entire

advise. Right? So I built out an entire app that sits only on my laptop. Very

easy, right? It's locally run. So I

can't go on my phone and use it. Uh you

can't use it either unless I give you the code. But it sits on my laptop. I

the code. But it sits on my laptop. I

open it up and it's called voice to social, which I think makes it obvious what it does. And so I might dictate out one or five ideas for like this is the exact thing that I want to get across. I

want to talk about the brand new you know clawed mythos model and I want to talk about how uh it was very overeager and destructive in early testing and I

want to get across three these three stories whatever. I am the one putting

stories whatever. I am the one putting in the actual idea. I'm still the one crafting the idea formatting it changing this little bullet to that bullet. I'm

fine if AI helps me scale it out. So I

put it in once and it gives me back nine different artifacts that can go in all of these different places and all nine are happening in parallel as well. So I

am not sitting there waiting going now can you make it into a tweet now can you make it into an email now can you whatever you put in one and you get back

in parallel all of these things that again are based on my actual brain I didn't lose any critical thinking but it is immediately enabling me to spread

that message to the millions of people that follow me in whatever format I need to be able to share that back with. So

that is something that has saved me hours and also lets me share content faster.

Like if you had looked at my calendar, my content calendar four years ago even before all this craziness started, I was writing so many more things than ever

saw the light of day. Like hundreds of posts and tweets and thoughts and ideas never saw the light of day. And now

because the cycle is so much faster, I can get anything out that I want. It's

actually it's like disarmingly easy. And

so that entire interface uh was built in clawed code. I made it black and yellow

clawed code. I made it black and yellow to match my brand guidelines. I added in the ability for me to dictate in the actual program itself, right? That was

built in with the Whisper API from OpenAI. I built in the ability to click

OpenAI. I built in the ability to click one button and it sends to notion without me copying and pasting into notion. I built an integration into

notion. I built an integration into Slack that allows me to press the button and immediately assign demo creation to our intern. Another button direct to

our intern. Another button direct to Slack into a different channel that assigns it to our designer to make a graphic that goes along with it. A

button that sends it into Gmail drafts so that I get 20 different versions for different clients that I might be pinging this to. like the dissemination

and some of the customization can be AI enabled. It's that core idea, that

enabled. It's that core idea, that critical thinking, the actual initialization, that's still all me, but that entire process all cloud code.

That's fascinating. And it and it's interesting as well because uh selfishly I I look at your your Instagram, your Twitter, your LinkedIn, your YouTube,

you post on all of those. Maybe not

YouTube, but basically every day.

Yeah.

And all of the posts are like contextual feel native to that platform.

And it's interesting that it's actually Claude code that's helped you get to that.

And my followers are a little different and I had to tweak and oh my voice isn't quite like that. It's more like this. My

followers on X are a lot more uh engineers, right? And so that's going to

engineers, right? And so that's going to be a little bit more tailored. My

followers on LinkedIn are executives, right? And so I might be talking a bit

right? And so I might be talking a bit more around the overall business impact of something. My clients, they're

of something. My clients, they're extreme experts in some of these fields because we've been talking about things for years. And so I can kind of skip

for years. And so I can kind of skip some of the basics and jump into depth.

And so every single one of those should be customized. Um YouTube I just like

be customized. Um YouTube I just like for whatever reason every time I have like laryngitis or no voice, I'm like this is the great time to record an hourong video and I just let it roll.

But the core idea is still me. That's

the big thing I want people to hear is that like Claude or Chad or Gemini or whatever is not rewriting my creativity.

It's rewriting the manual labor of the last mile of customization and deployment.

You know what? Because there's going to be someone that's listening and they're going to get inspired by what you just said. And I think it's such a common

said. And I think it's such a common pain point, especially with content, of like I want to post on all of these different, you know, I'm a coach and I want to post on all of these different platforms, but like I don't have the

time to do YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Tik Tok, LinkedIn.

Um, I hear about that all the time. I feel

it even in my own business. Now, what

people are going to do next is they're going to go and try Clawude Code and they're probably going to have a similar experience to the one that I had, which is as soon as they open it, there's going to be a level of intimidation of

like the way that it looks. And then

from there, it's going to be like, how long is it going to take me even just to get started and set up on this thing?

Can you speak to if I almost want to make the perfect first step, like I want to go in with the right mindset.

Yeah. And I also want to start in the right way so that I can keep going. It's

not like I I start doing it for 10 minutes and I'm like this is too I'm going to I'm going to give you a solution. It's going to cost $60 total

solution. It's going to cost $60 total and there are ways to make this cheaper or whatever. But if you're like give me

or whatever. But if you're like give me the easiest possible freaking things.

These are the things. They each cost $20 a month. Okay. First, you're going to

a month. Okay. First, you're going to get a Many Chat account, a repurpose account, and a Claude whatever the $20 a month one is called. I think Pro.

That's the your $60. You are going to download the desktop app which is you just Google download claw desktop app.

Download it. Switch to the co-work tab.

That's step one. You are going to enable the Chrome plugin which is literally just a toggle. You are going to create the repurpose and many chat things.

You're going to record your reel and whatever as you usually do. And when you post it, like all those replies where it's like reply with the word calum and I'll send you my awesome getting started

guide, you can literally ask Coowork to go into these two systems into Repurpose and Manyhat and just do all the clicking for you. When you enable that Chrome

for you. When you enable that Chrome plugin, that means that it can take action in web browsers on your behalf.

So even if you've never used these tools, you can go into co-work and you're going to say every single day I'm going to, you know, give you a reel. I

want you to take that file. I want you to put it into repurpose or hey, I've already uploaded this file, manage it and disseminate it on these four channels. And then on many chat, can you

channels. And then on many chat, can you set up a new automation where if people reply with the word workshop, I'll send them the link to my workshop. Claude in

the background is going to make all those clicks happen and navigate the literal apps for you. So, yes, you had to spend, you know, again, maybe the 20 bucks to get it started, but even if

those $60 got you one more client, it would be worth it.

So, you do have to make a little bit of a trade-off, but co-work is the right place to start for most people. Um, and

I wouldn't have said that a month ago because it was feature light, but that is where I would start now.

Yeah. And turning on Chrome means that I can take immediate action inside of those settings. And every other tool

those settings. And every other tool plugin in Co, like I don't know if you've gone to the the connections page, but if you go into customize and then connectors, it's literally like a list

of hundred toggles, right? You know,

like when you set your cookies on a page and it's like, is it okay if I sell your marketing? Is it okay if I Okay.

marketing? Is it okay if I Okay.

Yeah.

They all just look like that. It's a 100 toggles that just goes Gmail, Google Drive Notion Asauna Shopify Stripe whatever, whatever. And you can just

whatever, whatever. And you can just toggle on whatever the heck you want.

And you just look at it and you go, "What are the 10 tools I use in my business every single day?" Toggle

toggle toggle toggle. Assuming that

you're okay with these systems, you know, reading and taking action.

And you you you in the span of four and a half minutes have downloaded the desktop app, switched to the right tab, and enabled the right connectors. and

you open up new task top left you type in a task and if anything breaks you just yell at it and you just say you like Ally on Cal's podcast told me I could do this how come you're not doing it right and it'll walk you through it but the

likelihood that that first one gets meaningful work off your plate is very high yeah so is the because you mentioned even just yelling at it is the functionality politely is is the functionality of using claude

very similar to then using claude coowork is that why you recommend that almost as like the first claude coowork is a nicer looking version of cloud code with a few missing features but not features that I think

the average person is going to care about.

Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm curious to find out about where is it that people go wrong and and the reason that I say that

is because as much as I see uh like testimonials and people saying like how it's changed their business or it's changed their workflows, I also hear

cases of it deleted my entire content calendar. It, you know, it sent this

calendar. It, you know, it sent this email, I didn't want it to send this email. Where is it that people because

email. Where is it that people because there's going to be a bunch of people that listen to this and then get started.

Where is it that most people are going to go wrong?

And how do they protect for that upfront?

So, there will continue to be loud stories that make it into your feed that show these things. The first thing to know is

these things. The first thing to know is that those are increasingly rare. Um,

but what I would enable is progressive trust. Like I've had several assistants

trust. Like I've had several assistants in my life, several employees in my life and I haven't given like any of them email access to my own email in the

first day, right? You slowly work them work with them, build trust, then you give them a corporate card, keep going, then you give them and so we should apply that same schematic to how we're

working with AI agents. So, you're not going to like I know I kind of said to toggle all these things on, figure out whether you're cool with that, but at the very least, you can toggle all these

things on and then go into the settings and only give it read access.

So, if you toggle on Gmail and you just say, I only want you to read my Gmail.

The worst that could happen is that it summarizes your email and gives it back to you. And maybe you're screen sharing

to you. And maybe you're screen sharing in some meeting and it'll show something. If you put edit or delete

something. If you put edit or delete permissions, that's where you're going to have a potential for something that deletes a file or edits a file.

And it's the same across all tools. So

just start with readonly access and then earn trust. Figure out what is working,

earn trust. Figure out what is working, what is not, and go from there. I think

the other thing that people are going to run into is that just sometimes these things don't work. Like all of these things are in beta preview alpha. Like

they all have a million words after it that basically says if it screws up, we're sorry. And I want people to know

we're sorry. And I want people to know that like things break all the time. And

that the super users are also dealing with this. And you just kind of have to

with this. And you just kind of have to say like, okay, it's broken now. I'll

come back to it in an hour and see what's working.

Yeah.

Like you still have to be able to do your job even without access to these systems. Yeah. You know what? So, uh, I want to

Yeah. You know what? So, uh, I want to say about six, seven weeks ago, I read this, uh, I read this, um, this article on Twitter, and I'm sure that

you've seen it cuz a bunch of people saw it. 86 million people saw it, which is

it. 86 million people saw it, which is something big is happening. And it was written by this guy Matt Schumer who's like worked in AI and almost was like sounding the alarm on what is coming.

And so, I wanted to read out something that he said in that article. He says,

"I've seen AI go from helpful tool to it does my job better than I do." And

everyone else, he works in he's like an engineer.

I've known him for six years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he says um everyone else is about to have this experience and he lists out he says law, finance, medicine, accounting, consulting writing design analysis

customer service, not in 10 years. The

people building these systems say 1 to 5 years. Some say even less. And given

years. Some say even less. And given

what I've seen in the last couple of months, I think less is more likely. You

mentioned that you're friends with Matt.

What can can you give people the context of what makes him say this? What is it that he's seen that's make him say this?

And then ultimately like where do you land in terms of we just shared all of these capabilities of like a clawed coworker can do things on our behalf.

what does that mean for for our place in the last couple months? Software

engineer hiring has actually started to come up. So, you know, whether or not

come up. So, you know, whether or not he's right, I think that the economic impact of AI on any job, especially code

related or techreated is going to be felt by everyone. Like I I do not believe when people are saying AI won't replace you, someone using AI will. I

just there's no way. There are some roles that will be replaced by AI. And

by running away from that sentence is putting people by running away from that sentence, you are putting yourself in a much worse position because you're basically putting on horse blinders saying, "No,

that's not the truth. That's not the truth. That's not the truth." And you're

truth. That's not the truth." And you're going to prepare for your career futures in a uh different and worse way. whether

it happens in one to five years um up for debate even among AI experts. What I

believe will happen is that the next 20 to 30 years are gray area muck. Like

mass industrial and job shifts are not done in 1 to 5 years. They might start and be triggered in one to five years.

The time it takes to figure out how systems adapt, how people adapt, how our tax system adapts, whether we work 9 to5, five days a week anymore, that is

not done in one to five years. That is

over several decades. So predictions are one, overall impact is another. I think

if you are Gen X, you're likely to retire before we get perfect answers to things. And if you are Gen Z or

things. And if you are Gen Z or millennial, you are going to probably see the other side of what happens when we have an entire digital workforce

working.

Yeah. You know what? Just when you um when you share that statistic that these best-in-class like models, 80% of the time they were found that they actually performed better

than someone that was doing the role.

And that's on overall task. In software

engineering, we literally just went from an 80% benchmark to 94%.

These models aren't yet being released to the public, but 94 I mean that is that's better than the average engineer.

Yeah. It's like it's uh it's stunning to hear.

Mhm.

And a lot of people I think process that in different ways. there's a lot of anxiety and there's a lot of people that just it's almost like okay this is inevitable. I'm gonna just put my head

inevitable. I'm gonna just put my head in the sand. And and you even alluded to that if that isn't the right way to go about it of like the for the individual today

thinking about what they can do. And I'm

even thinking about the person that 5 years, 10 years from now actually looks back at this time and thinks to themselves that was almost like a like a golden

era. Like I I I made a ton of things

era. Like I I I made a ton of things happen in that space of time. I started

this company. I got more time with my family. I got more agency to what we

family. I got more agency to what we were talking about earlier.

That human being, what would they be doing today so that 10 years from now they have that feeling that they're looking back with that mindset

and perspective? What are they doing

and perspective? What are they doing today?

First, I hope that everyone listening goes into that group. Like even just hearing that description, I'm like, uh, I would love if everyone had that transformation. Here's my current

transformation. Here's my current belief.

Exponential change is nearly impossible for us to wrap our heads around. When we

were looking at COVID, right? In in late February, there were people that thought that CO wasn't going to impact us in a big way. There were people by March that

big way. There were people by March that also were like, "Ah, this is a two week thing. will be back in no time. Right? I

thing. will be back in no time. Right? I

was talking to ML engineers that were running simulations in March saying there's no way this is done before October. And so because I had that extra

October. And so because I had that extra information, I could make way better decisions for myself, for my team, for a multi-billion dollar business line that

I was running. So the first thing is maybe rather than wrapping your head around exponential change because I truly think that that is not possible for our heads. It is almost better to

assume the exponential change and then ask yourself how would I adapt if it is true and how would I adapt if it's not true and then look at the list of

actions in both and say what is true in both right or what is the least risky action that I can take across both because then you've basically said regardless of what happens I'm in a much

better place so that's theory one is like diving in gets you information asymmetry and leverage Uh number two is you actually don't have to calculate exponential change. You can

just assume it'll happen and assume it won't and figure out your action. The

third and this is again uh not what people want to hear is that I think there are just some people that take action and there are just some people

that don't. In 2020 it was very obvious

that don't. In 2020 it was very obvious that Tik Tok was blowing up and yet not everyone started a Tik Tok and grew to 17 million followers.

There have been other golden eras and too many it has been obvious and those people still didn't carve out time. I

think reducing the uh action potential, reducing the amount of energy it takes to do one little thing is the best thing that someone can do. Um because once they get that first action going, it is

so much easier to do the next 50. The

second you learn cla coowork and do that one task, it's so much easier to do the next 500. the second you you know like I

next 500. the second you you know like I don't even know like take one vacation it's easier to book more because you're going oh it's it wasn't as hard as I thought now I know the system to actually apply for that time now I know

that my boss won't yell at me whatever all these walls come down and so find the smallest energy to take for some it might be signing up for an account for

some it might be making that document that's a little bit about you and asking for that first task for some people might be spinning up your first AI agent for some people. It might be getting a group of six people together and saying, "Every Thursday night, we're talking

about AI agents. This is the new book club, you know, come together. We're all

going to start." Finding that little action potential and surrounding yourself with people who take action is going to set you on this

flywheel that puts you in a completely different career position, financial position, and probably psychological position in a year.

Even with that, I want to empathize with anyone who's feeling these feelings and saying all of us feel it every single day. The only difference between someone

day. The only difference between someone who is in the super user category is that they've just decided even with that anxiety to take action. That is

literally it.

I I I think it's such a a powerful um perspective shift. And um there was

perspective shift. And um there was actually a a tweet that I read on your account. you were talking about um I

account. you were talking about um I think you you'd been in an AI agent workshop and one of the like small business owners in that workshop had shared something with you and I and I just wanted to read it out cuz I thought

it was powerful and it was personal.

He said, "Uh, I'm 53 and I work 13 hours a day, no holidays, no vacations in 10 years. I'm getting older. AI has already

years. I'm getting older. AI has already cut my judicial briefing time for 45 from 45 minutes to 5 minutes. But what I

really want is for it to give me my life back. I want to read again, be with my

back. I want to read again, be with my family again, travel slowly. I want to know what that feels like because I've forgotten.

And so I wanted to it's uh I think so often we hear about like the the doomsday scenario like this

apocalyptic version of reality. And I

think that the thing that stood out to me when I read that I was like it was a very tangible example, human example and personal example of how someone could

actually imagine AI transforming their life in a positive way.

And so I'm curious to hear like even I I want to I want to hear more about AI agents and the workshops that you do, but even when you hear like a testimony or someone share their experience and

also just in the short time that I've known you, how does that hit? How does that make you feel?

Can I ask you a question which is so that's from a an anthropic research report where they surveyed 81,000 people and that was just like that quote smacked me upside the head. I mean like I stood there in front of they have a

poster in their office and I just stood at it staring. Do you read that as hope or desperation?

I read it as hope.

Interesting. I read it as the other. I

think well first I like default to just assuming that things are bad and I just like want to fix everything. Um and and I have known you to be a very optimistic person.

I'm more an optimist. Yeah.

I think I read that and I read it as someone who is very um nervous, anxious, scared that making these shifts in their

life and adopting AI agents and figuring out how to do this hopefully will help them get back time, but that they have not yet made that decision for themselves.

That's what I hear. I hear um could, you know, throw it up in the air. Why not

let the universe decide? I'm 53. Someone

else can figure out my future for me. I

read that and I worry for the author behind it, right? It's a 53-year-old lawyer, I think, in the US that said that. What I have learned from seeing

that. What I have learned from seeing all these people use AI in their lives is if you haven't figured out ahead of

time what you are trying to do and what you plan on doing with the five or 50 hours that AI saves you. You will sound like the 53-year-old lawyer that is

leaving it up to the universe saying, "I hope I get to vacation with my family."

That should be your literal goal. Book

the vacation now. Book the vacation now.

and work backwards and say now the problem that I have to solve is that I got to get three hours off my plate every single week and then you can figure out what briefing you want to use and you can figure out how you want to

use AI for due diligence or research or whatever. Like I read that and and I

whatever. Like I read that and and I hear low agency.

That's what I hear. And I think hopefulness comes from having a goal, having a plan, and realizing that you have agency toward that plan. And in my

mind, building up that goal in context, writing that down and leaning on not just your friends and your family and resources that you've already have,

right? But adding in AI as an additional

right? But adding in AI as an additional resource. We've never had such high

resource. We've never had such high agency as we do now.

So, I am um I I I ache with a lot of people that are in this situation where they're saying, "Hey, I'm saving all this time, but like where's it going?"

And I I I want to tell these people, it's not easy at all, but like you actually need to decide that ahead of time. You really really do. The universe

time. You really really do. The universe

is going to keep filling your cup. The

universe is going to keep asking for things from you, your bosses, your boss's boss, whatever. There will never be enough time to complete things.

You will always have tasks that do not get done, right? And so your first, it's like a like Captain America's shield.

Like your first blocker actually has to be you and not having like these crazy strict boundaries or whatever. You got

to be a little flexible. But your first Captain America shield has to be no, I know what I want. I know why I joined here. Maybe I'll work till 10:00 one

here. Maybe I'll work till 10:00 one night, but then I'm not going to do it five more nights in a row. And if you have no shield and you let that be built of vapor and not of steel or whatever

Captain America, like magic, whatever he builds it with, then you will be in such a bad position with AI because it will take work off your plate

and then the flood is going to continue to fill in with other things that maybe you don't even want to do.

You know what? I um I agree with you in the sense that I think it's important to make a decision, right? Like you you almost have to make the decision first and you have to have that clarity first

and then everything follows from that decision. Mhm.

decision. Mhm.

I think the reason I said that I hear hope is one I am optimistic.

And and then I think the the second thing is in my experience what I found is that we fall into like this state of dread as humans when we can't envision a

better future and every day looks like the previous day and there's like this groundhog effect to it. And so just the fact that

when I read it, he could envision a better future actually having time with family right?

Or like getting uh not working all the time, getting vacation days.

I was like that feels like the step one to me. Like

to me. Like you have to envision it first and then I think from there there's like the the decision that follows.

I'm with you.

Um but you know what? where I where I wanted to go before we get out of here is last week I had a a conversation on this show and it was my first time really

going deep on open claw and I know for you uh about a month ago you actually went to a conference in New York like sold out conference in New York

specifically for open claw and and just to give people the the context and you can even do a better job of this this technology this tool has kind of taken over the world in many places and I and

the reason I say the world is like it's getting mass adop it's getting adopted in the US it's actually getting adopted even faster in China and so right in the beginning did you see the photo by the way

of people lining up in China to be able to set up their openclaw no I didn't see the photo but I can people in their 60s and 70s lining up in line and that the younger generation's like literally helping them get on

boarded onto openclaw and and you know what even as we talk about this I'm so aware that for some people listening at home this is like their first time that they'll even be hearing that term. They'll be like is this similar to Claude or what Clawude

what's the thing?

Can you give the context and even earlier on I spoke about this like two groups you have these power users and then you have like the everyday person and it constantly feels like we're behind like we're running one step

behind. Can you give the context

behind. Can you give the context why are people so excited about open claw number one and then number two when you step into that conference and you

spend time there what is it that you saw?

So this was so these meetups are happening everywhere. Uh I kind of like

happening everywhere. Uh I kind of like last minute heard about the New York one went to it. It was hundreds of people with thousands on the wait list.

Everyone's wearing like lobster headbands and lobster stickers going everywhere. Like it is a movement. Um

everywhere. Like it is a movement. Um

and this tool came out November 2025.

Like this was very very very quickly adopted. um at its core,

adopted. um at its core, actually at the core of what all these systems are trying to be is a little bit like her, which is just proactive, something you can have conversation

with, something that feels natural, something where you don't have to code to talk to it. Um something that is uh keeping its eye out on your behalf,

right? Like if it notices a scam, it's

right? Like if it notices a scam, it's going to delete that for you. if it

notices that your calendar is really busy, maybe it'll pre-book you a vacation to Portland a month later. So,

we we all want this proactive helper that gets us and is is like holding us.

Um, I think a lot of people felt like OpenClaw was the first thing that did that and it's still the most autonomous AI buddy out there because it was

started by one guy. Like Peter

Steinberger built this because he wanted it and claivity and memory maintenance. And so this idea that you could first access it from your

phone. So you could be walking your dog

phone. So you could be walking your dog and say, "Hey, can you email Callum and just ask him, you know, what he wanted to talk about on this podcast and it would draft the email based on your

voice. It knows your email. It has

voice. It knows your email. It has

access to it and it can send it and then you can say, "And tell me when he writes back, right?" That idea that an AI is

back, right?" That idea that an AI is checking on what tasks you're asking for like every single 15 minutes and just waiting to help you is a really

warm feeling. Um, I think every single

warm feeling. Um, I think every single person wishes that they had just like a 247 helper and so OpenClaw was kind of the first one to do that. Um, what did I actually see at that meetup? So, first

tons of people went on stage to share what they were building with OpenClaw.

One guy who works in finance built out an automatic trading system and hearing all of the decisions that he made. Like,

it's one thing to say, "Oh, this thing trades for me." That's a vague sentence doesn't help anyone. It's the fact that he was like, "And I learned to not trade in the first 15 minutes of the market.

And I learned to only have two windows of trading, so it can't just trade throughout the day, right? To reduce the actual risk or to reduce the volatility in the opening 15 minutes. And I only

gave it $100 and not $12,000." So, it was really interesting hearing the tradeoffs that people are making with these systems. Um, there's another

company that has 25 open claws sitting in their Slack and they literally spun up a new Slack channel where only the open claws hang out and they're all

like, "Hey boss, like nice to meet you.

What's up, Aaron? Hey." And they're all teaching each other skills and like passing things along. That was a really interesting thing to see. I think agents talking to other agents is going to be

massive this year and next. Um, and I think just like seeing the amount of

like extreme energy in the room for uh what I would call quite risky AI systems

was strange, right? Like I talked to someone who is deeply involved in the openclaw space and I was like, well, what do you think are the top like safety tips for working with openclaw?

and he said if you are not okay with all of your files being exposed on the internet you shouldn't use it

and that is someone who has like 20 years of software engineering experience who has been working on this for months and months and months who's an opencloud expert saying that so it is uh very high risk that's why

it's still you know not adopted by hundreds of millions of users but it is right now the like ideal that all these other companies are racing toward.

Like Peter was hired into OpenAI because of that project that he built out and because of the unbelievable traction it got, the community that it got, it it

was uh like lobster headbands aside, um it was really cool to be part of.

Yeah. you know, you you you mentioned uh like it's the reality that a lot of these companies like an anthropic or open AAI they're like running towards and I remember about a year ago was the

first time I heard this possibility like someone talking about the future that you could have like a billion dollar company which has one employee and at first when I heard it I was like this

seems completely implausible but then the more and more that the developments get made and like the speed of development and when you even just hear about open core And what some of the use

cases you just described, it feels very feasible that you could have one person with a bunch of agents just running these workflows. I guess in

your mind, do you think that we ever get there? And how close are we to getting

there? And how close are we to getting there? I don't in the immediate future,

there? I don't in the immediate future, whatever the way that you define that, I guess. What's that? The next year, two

guess. What's that? The next year, two years.

Who my immediate future is like the next five minutes. Like is it happening? Is

five minutes. Like is it happening? Is

it happening in the car ride home? So,

um I think that every single one of these systems is trying to be proactive and helpful. I

think the difference between whether or not that dream comes true. Uh right now does have to do with cost. So when I was at that openclaw meetup, there are

people that are spending over $100,000 a year running these systems. So even if I do say yes to a billion dollar company

run by one person, it might be that the cost to pull that off is not yet open to every single person.

Um I feel pretty confident and we're already kind of seeing some signals of it, but I feel pretty confident that we're going to see companies with just a few people that are already worth a

billion plus. And again, we're seeing

billion plus. And again, we're seeing signs of it that are kind of middle men sort of companies. But anyways, I think net new companies starting from scratch, two to five people, a billion plus will

happen this year. Um, I have I have a hard time imagining a one person billion dollar from scratch happening this year.

Happy to be proven wrong, but if you said, you know, you had to bet on it happening in the next three years, I would definitely take that bet and say yes on it.

Wow. Um, there are people who already have, you know, teams of five, teams of 25 AI agent, like full personas working

on their behalf. Um, and if you're okay with a much higher risk profile and spending potentially

a hundred to $250,000, which there's ways to fund that from venture capital, uh, that is absolutely possible. I also I don't know if you saw

possible. I also I don't know if you saw the research on it, but um Citadel and Catrini, there were these two research reports that came out around the same time. One that was like AI is going to

time. One that was like AI is going to be the most incredible thing ever, and one of them was like we're screwed. And

they both came out within like a week of each other. And the one stat that I

each other. And the one stat that I loved that every single person who feels like left out of their company or they feel like their company is slow or they don't know what they can do in the space

like this graph showed the number of businesses that exist today and are likely to be forecasted out in our AI future. And it basically showed that the

future. And it basically showed that the number of businesses is going to skyrocket. Like I think we're moving

skyrocket. Like I think we're moving into the age of the AI first entrepreneur because what has held people back again not at the

billion-dollar level but at a meaningful lifestyle level what has held people back doesn't exist anymore right like the ability to spin up your website used to take 20,000 10,000

$50,000 depending on how good you wanted it to be and it now costs a 20 to $40 subscription and like a day. Yeah, that

I mean that's absolutely insane.

I also want to just say that like the best leverage points are when things don't take 5 minutes for everyone but take like eight hours for everyone. Like

that's actually the secret to all this stuff. When you find that like asking

stuff. When you find that like asking Chachi a question and getting it back.

Now everyone's got that. So if you made a platform that allowed you to ask a question and get something back, it's not going to be all that helpful. You

have to find things that the average person is not going to dedicate hours to. And so maybe your job is just to

to. And so maybe your job is just to learn claude co-work or something deeply and then you go to your small medium businesses nearby and you teach them for thousands of dollars. That is a real

business, right? There are ways to make

business, right? There are ways to make six figures right now just learning these things really deeply and teaching others about it. But that's because it's something that might take a few hours and the average person is not going to

pick it up. So finding those points of leverage, whether it's installing OpenClaw, whether it's figuring out co-work, whether it's just building one awesome agent that you can then deploy

for whatever moms in your neighborhood, like that is a massive point for leverage that can lead to a side hustle or a full-time job.

Yeah. So, you mentioned uh like the AI first entrepreneur, and I don't know if you have you seen this clip that's kind of going around at the moment with uh Grant Cardone.

I don't think so. And so so Grant Cardone, kind of controversial figure, rightly so. Um, but there's this clip

rightly so. Um, but there's this clip that's kind of going viral on social media where he was talking about the AI consultant, okay, and how he sees this like opportunity that exists right now. I think the

question that was asked was like if he had to make his first million today, how would he go about it? And he said he'd be an AI consultant, which is basically help like small, medium.

I'd answer the exact same way.

Yeah. and he's basically said that uh he would charge companies $8,000 a month.

He'd get like 10 clients or so and he would help them with like AI implementation in their businesses, finding a few workflows that they could uh implement. And so

when I heard it, I was curious to get your perspective on it given what you do, also given the fact that you've been in this industry and learning about it

and using it for so long.

Yeah.

Is this one of those things when we hear AI um AI automation expert or AI consultant in your mind when you hear it? Is that

like a pipe dream for the majority of people or is that something that you actually think oh yeah we're going to see a ton of those and people building making their first million doing that?

So so I I have faith in an open market.

Like if you go out and you're like, I'm an AI automation expert thing and you have zero credibility, zero credentials, zero proof points, zero social proof, testimonials, whatever, no one that

that's worked with you before, the likelihood that you get customers unless there's extreme desperation in your area is very low. So I think there's always

going to be a uh market feedback that people that you're pitching to are kind of going to come back to you and be like, "Ah, yes, you do have these skills, so let's come in." Um, I think

if you spent, you know, many, many hours, you would learn enough to be dangerous, but I don't think that would get you to a point to be able to build an entire consulting

practice around it. Um, I think it's meaningful hours and staying up to date on it. Um, I don't know if $8,000 a

on it. Um, I don't know if $8,000 a month is the right price point, but like probably in the 5 to10,000 a month range. Um, and maybe you bring on one other person who can do things in

a different time zone, like a West Coast, East Coast person. I think again going back to like where that leverage point is, it's never going to be on the

thing that takes 5 minutes to figure out which is downloading Chad and using it.

And it's also, if you're a oneperson shop, not going to be on something that's going to take 6 to 12 months. You

have to find something that you can figure out in let's say like 8 to 25 hours and can teach a bunch of people that thing and figuring out what your

like core uh modules are whether it's I teach claude co-work and I can teach it for everyone at your company as a workshop

or uh I build workflows for marketing agencies and here are the three playbooks that I run or I'm going to get your finance team or this accounting

team spun up in three sessions over a week. Like you have to figure out what

week. Like you have to figure out what your like modular components are, cadence, and how much to charge. But I think you could make significant six figures off

of that if you have connections already in the space. Um the one thing that I'll I'll hedge against Grant's part is that

what you deliver has to keep changing.

So like I've I started in AI almost 20 years ago. Have worked in it every

years ago. Have worked in it every single day for the last decade. The

things that I was advising on 10 years ago look nothing like what I'm advising on today. Right? So 10 years ago I was

on today. Right? So 10 years ago I was like explaining computer vision models.

I was explaining conversational AI. I

was explaining this idea that like if you ask it a question that it can respond and it's not just like copying and pasting from a document that's sitting off the side. Um that level of education isn't required now. And so if

I was still teaching that, I would be out of date, out of business. So yeah,

you can be an AI consultant. There is so much to go around. Oh my god, please take some of these clients off my plate, please. Right. And small medium

please. Right. And small medium businesses in particular are underserved, but you are also saying uh that you are agreeing to continued education for yourself so that your customers can

continue to be helped. like you don't want to I don't know squeeze them dry of this money like you I feel I feel

extremely uh proud when I see my clients doing amazing work and it makes me want to work harder for them and it makes me want to stay up late to figure out what's the next thing that I could

advise them on what's something coming in two years that I should be talking about them now what is a new potential growth line that they could launch as a brand new business that if they did it now they'd actually be ahead of every

other industry like I am brainstorming on their behalf.

AI consultants it's I just Grant made it sound too easy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what you you you may I'm so happy that you said it is I think sometimes when these things come up like these opportunities these trendy opportunities that come up on the internet.

Um the feeling is oh it's so easy to do this right now. And you mention how much this space is changing even for you.

Like what you're advising on now is completely different. It's a 180 than

completely different. It's a 180 than what you were doing uh previously.

Yeah.

Can you take people behind the scenes for a second of like Alli's life?

Because I I I see you posting so often on your social media. You're obviously

just even the energy that you've spoken with in this conversation. You're so

into this. What is happening behind the scenes? What is your dayto-day like so

scenes? What is your dayto-day like so that you can even have this perspective so that you can go to a client and actually advise them? Can you

take people behind that curtain for a second?

Right before I start my day, like AI has already been working for me for hours.

So, I have that morning debrief that I wake up to and it runs through my day or it gives me all of the assets that I have to figure out that day. At the very end of the day, I'll queue up a to-do

list and kick it off to two different AI systems that can help me get some stuff done. Like sleeping is the thing that

done. Like sleeping is the thing that I'm struggling with the most. Uh I think last night I went to bed at 4, so improving every day.

Um but I was also like up reading a 200page system card on a brand new model and that's why it spiked. Um I think staying up to date is definitely helpful. I

think uh knowing your clients like work areas is very helpful. So I have some clients that are in the uh you know the finance space, some that are in sports, some that are in retail, some that are

in tech, some that are in pharma. So

getting a taste of just what's happening in those industries is very helpful. Uh

yeah, the majority of my day is actually on the advising side. Uh it's it's I like get to see the future every single day.

Yeah. You know, you say you get to see the future every single day and and you give such a you have such a wide purview, right, between like the advising and you even mentioned that uh small and

mediumsized businesses in particular are like underserved, but you also work with like just a range of clients to like big companies and then even influencers in the space you're talking to. You

mentioned like there's a tool that you That's cuz I'm like lonely and I need friends. Yeah.

friends. Yeah.

You mentioned that there's a there's a tool that you've been using that's kind of like exploded your mind. Mhm.

If you had to almost share with people an opportunity that from your perspective, it's kind of hiding in plain sight just because you're having

so many conversations with different people. like a very specific actionable

people. like a very specific actionable opportunity that in your mind if someone approached it with the right

application and mindset and hunger and energy, it could be like a huge opportunity for them in their life. I'm

just curious based on all these conversations and data and the reports that you're reading and the people that you're speaking to like what comes to mind

like an opportunity?

My again extremely simplified answer if you are looking for an opportunity to leave your current job or maybe you're unemployed and you're just trying to figure out how to make sense of the time

that you have. The way that I would spend my time right now is going deep into clawed co-working every single setting, every single way

of managing memory, of managing and building skills, of your claw.md file,

uh spinning up different projects, like really go deep into that, which is going to take you hours. Test it for yourself.

Get really, really good at that. Teach

three people in your life that know absolutely nothing about what you're doing. start to get feedback on your

doing. start to get feedback on your teaching skill level. Um, get feedback on whether you make sense, right? And do

a little bit of triing on that. And then

go to your friend's parents or your friends that are running small businesses that are somewhere between 50 and 500 people and say, I can get every

single person at your company trained up on this with two 90inute workshops. I

charge this much for the first set of two workshops and then this much for monthly continuence which allows you two flex hours and one additional workshop over the next three months or whatever

you want to structure it as for that package it will be 50k for the next six months right that easy box and just

being able to serve that to maybe a hundred potential clients and maybe five bite that's already you making six figures a

And like the simplified version of it sounds easy. I just want people to know

sounds easy. I just want people to know that like it will take work. And that's

actually the thrilling part. When

something takes work, that means no one that means not everyone else is going to do it. Like we we we can't be afraid of

do it. Like we we we can't be afraid of effort. We can't be afraid of work. You

effort. We can't be afraid of work. You

should be looking at work and effort and going that's leverage, right? Like I and again you could do this on cloud code or codex or whatever but small medium

businesses will benefit the most from co-pilot co-work or cloud co-work or these more non-engineering more visual interfaces.

And that's where I would double down if I was trying to scale on SMBs.

Yeah. You know what? Um and I hope that someone we're going to have someone that takes that and actually goes and does it. And I hope that they reach out to

it. And I hope that they reach out to either one of us.

imply's like perfect world of how things end up cuz I think people have so much anxiety and they goes, you know, we hear an optimistic take and then we hear a ton of pessimism and and doomsday and

probably it will land somewhere in the middle. But in your ideal reality,

middle. But in your ideal reality, what is your hope for what people's lives will look like

in 5 years from now?

I like first thank you for just noticing things in people, in me, in all of your other guests. I think I'm like a very

other guests. I think I'm like a very intense impatient and like justicefueled person and entrepreneurship fueled person. And um

and and by the way, maybe that's not the vibe that people even want to be listening to. And so first I just want

listening to. And so first I just want to encourage everyone to to gain more hope, to gain more agency, like listen to tons of people in the AI space. My

hope is that in five years, the average non-engineer understands how to use these tools and

very specifically understands not just how to do current things faster, but understand I want them to understand how

to do things better or do new things.

Like my biggest fear would be that all of humanity is granted this like unbelievable like elf in a box that can do really

really complex PhD work and that they go great I will write podcast scripts faster check it out the window. My hope is that

people are given this system, this operating system, and then they go, "Oh, the world hasn't been written for me for the last several decades, or this process has never made sense." Or, um,

everything that we do in order to get an invoice signed is so manual, or the way that we reach out to potential new clients, even if it's for this new AI consulting business that everyone's going to build, it's just so slow. It's

so manual. My hope is that people go, if I was an alien born right now and I had access to this tool and I didn't have anything bogging me down from how the

system used to work, how might I reinvent it from scratch? How might I reframe how I look at this system, not tool, but like full operating system and

how can I reinvent that? And that takes years. So in 5 years, my hope would be

years. So in 5 years, my hope would be that, you know, all bad processes that ruin our mind and happiness are gone and dead and we have all these incredible

things that make us feel good every day and that we love our role in our work.

Uh but even if that happened in like 30% of what we do, I think we'd be marketkedly happier. Um that's one. The

marketkedly happier. Um that's one. The

second, I really do believe that the number of businesses is going to go up a lot and I want to see more entrepreneurs in the world. I want to have everyone have more agency in their lives. I want

people to build the consulting company they want, the coaching company they want, the side hustle they want, the uh, you know, the software like a software tool that maybe only a

thousand people in the world need but would actually improve those lives. I

want all of that to be happening in the next like several months, but I I'll deal with several years. And then I think if I like really step back in five years, you're going to have the

likelihood is high. So this is a gamble, but the ability to have like an AI researcher that can complete scientific

research on our behalf feels very very high. So the likely Did you read uh the

high. So the likely Did you read uh the story about the guy with the dog with cancer? Yeah,

cancer? Yeah, that's sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh share that context with people. Yeah.

So, um there was a a gentleman in Australia that had adopted a dog and then the dog gets diagnosed with a form of cancer and like couldn't walk,

couldn't jump. And this guy gets his

couldn't jump. And this guy gets his dog's DNA fully sequenced, puts it into a combination of Chachib and Alphafold,

which is from Google, and basically tries to figure out what vaccine the dog could take to improve. and gets an answer probably also based on previous

research and goes to UNSW and says can like I want to save my dog can you help me make this and so like a research team at UNSW said yeah and took it on and

made the vaccine and then they gave it to the dog all in the span of two months tumors shrinking dogs jumping around everywhere like the idea that that could

happen and it cost a couple thousand dollars for that to happen and took two months, but I'm imagining that that could happen at scale for many more

people and not just for our wonderful K9 friends in Australia. But that is uh very possible on a research side in the next two to three years and at scale in

five.

Yeah. You know what? Um, Ali, first of all, just thank you for coming on the show and and even more than that, I think, uh, and I've alluded to it several times, just your intention, the

energy that you bring. Um, yeah, it's been a pleasure. So, thank you.

Thank you. And thank you for having me.

Of course. And, and before we get out of here, can you tell people where they can find you?

Yeah, I'm Ali K Miller on just about everything. Instagram, LinkedIn, Tik

everything. Instagram, LinkedIn, Tik Tok, and X. A L L I E K Miller. And

also, funny enough, AI, no matter how many times you say Ali Miller, it will always spell it as A L I.

Ali K Miller. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

That was awesome. So, if you enjoyed this conversation and you want to hear even more stories like this, then just click here. And also, my team is going

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watch here. Thank you.