AI NPCs, Real Influence, The Future of Gaming | Captain CK, Loaf & Tony Valcarcel

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It has been a week for me last week, dude. I have been moving and it has been

dude. I have been moving and it has been freaking crazy. Uh, moving with four

freaking crazy. Uh, moving with four kids, do not recommend. Um, and it's been something that I've been looking forward to for a very long time, but it's definitely been very stressful. And

so I'm glad that I'm back in the seat today. Uh, super pumped about it today.

today. Uh, super pumped about it today.

And of course, we got Shassan in the building. What's up, Dod? Woof woof,

building. What's up, Dod? Woof woof,

baby. Uh, we have a lot a lot of things to talk about today. Um, I've been really just like contemplating on a lot of things. Um, and really about a lot of

of things. Um, and really about a lot of the the drama that was kind of happening last week uh with the fellows like a lot of my friends and stuff like that, which I find everybody that was currently in

that specific drama uh friends except Kaggi of course. But like in terms of that stuff, it was like really sad to see um on a lot of things. But um there was a topic that kind of came out of all

of that that I wanted to kind of break down to to anybody. Uh if people have questions on things, definitely let me know. But I for sure want to have a

know. But I for sure want to have a conversation around like the performance enhancing uh tools that we have in crypto to really make people feel as if

there's like more engagement than there actually is inside of crypto Twitter crypto specific like culture all that good stuff. And so that is what I'm

good stuff. And so that is what I'm going to be talking about today. Um but

we are going to kick it off with just kind of a preview of what we're going to be doing today. Apologies on like the kind of like delay. I've been just feel like I'm kind of like in a a stuck kind

of like rut to be honest. Um last week uh for people that don't know, I was like in the middle of like a move and so it was just a lot of Yeah, it was just a

lot to be honest. And even now I'm feeling just yuck in terms of like a point where I'm just feeling I don't know just in a kind of a rut that I'm

trying to get out of. Um, and I know Alpha Wolves always is that way to do it. And so that's why I also kind of got

it. And so that's why I also kind of got myself to be the first person that's on that block. Usually I have four people

that block. Usually I have four people and it's it's really great to have it, but I need to be able to like knock off the rust and kind of get back into the zone and chat with the the fellow wolves in the building though. So really

excited about it. Thank you, Shan, for showing up. Hopefully all my audio and

showing up. Hopefully all my audio and everything like that is good. I have not moved yet uh from this area to my next place. Um but we are gonna get started

place. Um but we are gonna get started uh with this. So uh with uh without further ado though, this is going to be the set for today. We have myself. I'm

going to be talking about really the journey of my specific marketing prowess from like 2021 all the way till now. And really as a creator as well as

now. And really as a creator as well as a person that's behind the scenes, there's a lot of things uh that I want to get to. Um and Shassan will will kind of point to a lot of the the learnings

that we had at Azra as well too. But

then right after following me we have uh reach uh captain at CK. I'm really

excited about him because it's about the topic that I am going to be talking about kind of giving my um monologue per se. And then there's Tony u Tony V as we

se. And then there's Tony u Tony V as we say GlitterCloud Solutions. He has been a friend, a mentor and also somebody that I've worked with alongside at Shrapnel. Um, and so there's a lot of

Shrapnel. Um, and so there's a lot of lessons to be had, a lot of discussions to be had in that one, um, for what we've done, but I also want to kind of give him some time to highlight on what he's been building. And then we also

have Loaf, uh, which is Lord of a Few uh, for the Twitter handle there, and he's building Daydreams, but he's also built Cartridge. He's been onchain

built Cartridge. He's been onchain gaming for a long time. So, I want to pick his brain on onchain gaming, but also X42, where he's been kind of building in that area for a long time.

And so, I'm really excited to to talk about that. Um we are going to be going

about that. Um we are going to be going into all of it here shortly. Um but

first and foremost there is a topic that I need to talk about uh today which um for people that want to know there was a lot of um discussion a lot of drama on

the the timeline for uh like some of my friends was like Spike um Jonah and all that stuff which I I find both of them friends and you know sometimes like do you do it for engagement? Do you do it all that stuff? Probably. Some of it is

like, you know, the drama kind of causes like a tension in which that like that kind of creates a light on what they're doing. Uh, which Jonah's killing it with

doing. Uh, which Jonah's killing it with not Sploot now. Um, which is I think it's live.

Um, I don't want to mess it up. So, one

second. Um, Jonah is currently doing live frame, uh, which is a really cool like, uh, AI specific clipping platform, uh, that he's been building. So, I'm

really excited to just kind of see how he's developing that. And so I just respect him a lot as like a builder, as a creator. Uh and I've just watched his

a creator. Uh and I've just watched his journey throughout the the years whenever I was uh founding Wolves when he was doing Real Agency. A lot a lot of our specific pipe uh pipeline has been

together, right? Um and not together as

together, right? Um and not together as in like we've been teammates, but we've been building on parallel paths in a lot of ways. And so um he had a comment on

of ways. And so um he had a comment on this. Um one second, guys. Sorry, I'm

this. Um one second, guys. Sorry, I'm

like still also just getting my uh all of my things together.

And um one of the things that he he also talked about was the ability to really despot like any type of like metrics or

fake metrics or fake engagement uh for for this man. I am all over the place guys. Apologies guys. Let me get it to

guys. Apologies guys. Let me get it to you. Um for uh the sunletric whatever uh

you. Um for uh the sunletric whatever uh guy's name is. No thank you. I'm I'm

good. Uh for people like there's a lot of people I'm like streaming on kick.

I'm streaming on Twitch. I'm streaming

on like all all the platforms. Just trying to figure out which platform like I want to kind of like stay in and the community to hang out in. I think a lot of people voted on that specific uh thing is like YouTube being the the main

area for it. Um but anyways, we're going to we're going to get to it and we're also cut all this uh beginning part off as well too. So let's get to the topic of discussion. Uh what's up guy? Uh

of discussion. Uh what's up guy? Uh

let's get to the topic of discussions of like what are we actually talking about when it comes to like the performing enhanced era of reach and this is just

worldwide right this is not just in crypto Twitter but there are nuances to the performance-enhancing era and tools for crypto Twitter for X and for Twitch and for YouTube and a

whole bunch of other things that we I want to talk about and I really want to kind of talk about this and then also talk to uh CK K as well because he's also been in the trenches since 2021 just doing marketing and being around

there. And so for people that don't

there. And so for people that don't know, I've been on both sides of like all of this. Uh thank you V. You got to love the jacket, dude. I need to get you one. Um in the Philippines, um I I'll

one. Um in the Philippines, um I I'll try to find a way to be able to get it for you and then I I'll get you one of these, brother. Um I appreciate you V.

these, brother. Um I appreciate you V.

Uh you've been freaking crushing it on the clips. So let's talk about this,

the clips. So let's talk about this, right? So Natty or Not is kind of what

right? So Natty or Not is kind of what the title I have for this. And I've been working on an article here about the performance-enhancing era of reach. So

I've been both on both sides of a lot of this, right? So I've been a creator.

this, right? So I've been a creator.

I've scaled up to like 7K on YouTube, 17 uh on X, and then also have built uh Wolves uh X account to 60K. And then

before that, I've also worked on the company side for like Azra Champions and a whole bunch of things. So for Azra, I helped uh build out their specific social media um where I did like a lot of giveaways. I found out about

of giveaways. I found out about Alphabot, whole thing with Chassisan.

Grew those specific socials to, you know, 30, 50K uh and above. Went over to Champions, did that, but also did Steam, I did, uh, Epic, I did a whole bunch of things with Prime Gaming and then went

into shrapnel to help with operations and that side of things. So, like I've paid creators, I've like been running brands, I've been paid by companies to be able to do that. So, I've been like chasing metrics on both sides. So, like

looking good on paper is like really important. When you've ever seen like

important. When you've ever seen like millions of fake impressions though, like you're kind of figure out like you kind of have a signal right now, just like what performs, but also like you

start really asking like what's real.

Like most brands have like no idea that they're like paying for fake metrics and that's like a really big issue um with a lot of this, right? So marketers spend like millions of dollars on content

creators who can't like really move a soul. Uh the numbers look real but like

soul. Uh the numbers look real but like the motion isn't, right? as the kids would say, like the motion is like a really big deal. Um, and so that's something that like I really want to kind of dig in today is that before

projects like point fingers too, this is something that's like really important to me is that when it comes to pointing fingers at creators for like faking engagement or doing all of that stuff,

projects also do it too. So like there's no one like really I should say safe from this like judgmental tone. And I'm

not even trying to be judgmental on this. I'm just trying to do what I'm

this. I'm just trying to do what I'm trying to do is trying to educate people. I'm trying to educate retail

people. I'm trying to educate retail people to understand that whenever they're following a creator that if they have a lot of like quote unquote reach that might not be organic reach, right?

And then the other side of things is like I want marketers and founders to know that to have like I guess their signals ups and their red flags up that whenever they're talking to somebody and

they're saying impressions, likes, repost, comments that not all of it is real and not all of it is organic. And

that's really important for people to understand because it hurts a lot of people too because they're spending a lot of their money uh and capital. And

that's what a lot of projects want to do. They want to be able to make sure

do. They want to be able to make sure that they have capital. So, gaining

capital through revenue, but also spending that capital very well and very respectfully to the people to be able to produce revenue for the company. It's a

it's a flywheel and you're trying to push $1 in to get like $5 out at the best, right? And so, what I'm wanting to

best, right? And so, what I'm wanting to do before I like push forward on any of this is that creators are guilty of this, but so are projects. And projects

are guilty, just to be like very pointed. Um, we're not dumb. So like

pointed. Um, we're not dumb. So like

projects do this by like points leaderboards Kaido specific things that in which that you push like you know points or leaderboards using signaling

that a token is going to happen to be able to make money to be able to then show to centralized exchanges or investors that your project has enough

traction to kind of keep it going. I've

been kind of out of the uh been kind of out of the platform um or I've been out of like working for like the foundation side of things for like the tokens and

all that stuff for a while now. So like

understanding the tokens and how centralized exchanges actually get people on platforms is like very like sometimes corrupt per se. Uh and they just it's just kind of always a moving

target. And what I mean by this is that

target. And what I mean by this is that tokens are not automatically published on like centralized exchanges.

There are centralized exchanges that you know are usually pretty much just a publishing agent for tokens that gets a whole bunch of volume and those fees are included into it, but then the exposure

comes to the project. And so it's very difficult to like pass that up. And so a lot of projects do what it's necessary, kind of like a checklist of things that

would get you on a centralized exchange or get you to be able to raise for a VC round. And how they do that is

round. And how they do that is manipulation through like points, leaderboards, and pretty much saying like, hey, there's going to be a token airdrop for things. Um, and so yeah, very important. I I feel like I'm

very important. I I feel like I'm rambling. I'm trying to land this play

rambling. I'm trying to land this play and be more like concise. Uh, especially

like for the clipping, guys. I I really apologize V Zo and edits. Um I'm trying to be a lot more concise with the way that I'm speaking but uh V says here too

like for real like some accounts that has like over 100K 200 200k yet their impressions barely reach 100 1K. I would

I would agree with that too like uh V that there is a lot of people that have botted their specific engagement or have botted their followership and it just doesn't really work well. Um, but what

I'm trying to say here is that there's a lot of people that Hey, Julia, what's up? Um, there's a lot of people that

up? Um, there's a lot of people that just don't that just straight up bought their specific following, right? And I think that's a big issue when it comes to crypto Twitter because you don't know

what's real and what's like not. Um,

it's like in a lot of ways like we're kind of in an era that you don't know on X if like you're dealing with real

attention and real conviction. Um, and

it becomes an issue, right? Um, and so what I want to kind of go into is like understanding like what the levels of like juiced ecosystem is. And so like

there's a lot of people that do engagement by a lot of different ways, right? So, one of them is just like

right? So, one of them is just like blatantly like botting your posts. So,

you bot, you pay a service and you get followers as well as you bought specific likes or reach posts or comments. Like,

why do people do that is because usually the nature of that platform encourages it. Like you see it very prevalent

it. Like you see it very prevalent inside of like Twitch and Kick. Like

literally inside of like this chat right now, there's somebody that's trying to sell me on it, right? Um, I can't put it up here, but it's like a Sun Lee Cherbeev, would you like many viewers?

Let's make you popular. And it's like a bot service in which that like you get bots to come to your channel that will then push you up in terms of the

discoverability because the only ping to play up up in that specific standard.

And usually how people kind of guard against that is that, hey, there's a lot of people chatting inside of their Discord for the ratio of like likes or not likes, but people that are viewing.

And so the the juice ecosystem isn't contained to like crypto, Twitter as well, but it's also prevalent in like everywhere else when it comes to live

streaming, right? Twitch, kick, any of

streaming, right? Twitch, kick, any of those. There's a huge bot problem. And

those. There's a huge bot problem. And

if you look it up on YouTube, there's a lot of like really good uh things to explain a little bit more of like the nuance take of how it is. And you know, we've also built our own systems to be

able to do that for crypto Twitter as well too. So I think understanding and

well too. So I think understanding and explain explaining to the founders and marketers of like how people juice their ecosystem to increase viewership and all

that stuff. It's like super super cool.

that stuff. It's like super super cool.

What's up Icy? I want to give a shout out real quick to to everybody. We're

chilling out before CK uh is up. Um CK

is not coming for a little bit, but uh fun fact, I gave Pton my open C hat and he hasn't worn it once, but the orange hat looks fuego. Uh I see bot gaming.

Um, but yeah, man. I see we're talking about really just like the bot and engagement stuff. Like over the weekend,

engagement stuff. Like over the weekend, um, I hit you and Sam up was like what happened over like the weekend in terms of like all this drama. And one of the topics that I really just kind of wanted

to expand upon was the botted and fake engagement. And I think a lot of people will look at that and be like, "Oh, does X, Y, and Z person bought

their thing?" And I think the first

their thing?" And I think the first thing that they go to is like they're paying a service to be able to pump numbers that are completely artificial, right? And I think that's like something

right? And I think that's like something there's like levels to fake engagement.

And I would even say that like there's levels, but then there's also gray area for engagement, right? So that on the top end, you have fake engagement for like bots, which like you pay a service,

they boost your post, they like, they repost, they comment. The next one is like there's like Alphabot. So you have like a carrot that somebody usually gives to you. That's usually through

like a collab manager or whatever. So

you have a white list, you have a giveaway that has a speculational value in which that you now have a carrot in your hand as a creator or a community manager to go in and push it to a

giveaway for the community to do your bidding. And usually Alphabot has ways

bidding. And usually Alphabot has ways in which that you can say like a post, repost, have to follow this account etc.

So it has a perception of motion but the carrot is there. The carrot is there and they're not really doing it for the like of your project. They're doing it mostly

for the fact that you are able to get the possibility to earn something that could have value in which that you can sell and that you can flip. So

that's like another layer. The next one is like engage. Actually before I go into engage because engage is used very differently within different people and I don't feel like that's the gray area.

Infoi is very much like a mercenary type of thing. It's like hey there's a bounty

of thing. It's like hey there's a bounty in which that like you can go in and you can do this but a lot of the problem is is that it does attention but then it doesn't provide conviction which I'll go

to in a little bit later but it's just very mercenary. Right. Bounties were

very mercenary. Right. Bounties were

really big in 2020, 2021 and 2022. And

to be honest, I would like that era back than we are now because currently Infopi is like it's all about being first. It's

all about attention. So you get like reply spamming into very popular posts so they can get impressions on that and then that impression leads to, you know, a higher form of leaderboard in which

that they get paid out more. So it's

just all mercenary. And whenever we talked to CK a little bit later today, one of the two things that he says is like crypto Twitter either wants money or wants status. And so a lot of the

things that work in it like Kaido or Infi is usually off of money. There's

like a lot of people in like third world countries that money can go a long way for like you know their weeks or their supplies. And so what they do is they

supplies. And so what they do is they grind out. That is their work. that is

grind out. That is their work. that is

their job to be able to grind out because a lot of these payments are paid out in either Bitcoin, Ethereum or uh USD stables in which that is a lot more

stable and a lot more it goes a lot longer a lot lot a lot of ways in the area that they live than it would be like in like the US for example right

and then the last one is like the engage/ arcane um the like gamified version why I think this is more of a gray area is that you earn earn soft currency within the community to unlock

rewards. And usually how you gain soft

rewards. And usually how you gain soft currency is through liking or commenting or doing whatever to pump a creator's post. And why I think this is a gray

post. And why I think this is a gray area is that the creator still has to create the community to be able to do this. That like the people that are

this. That like the people that are Infoey or the people that have like Alphabot, they are not doing something. They're not creating a

doing something. They're not creating a community in which that like you can then put in a mechanism to have a soft currency to unlock rewards like a shop

item. So, how a lot of people do it is

item. So, how a lot of people do it is that they have soft currency within their community and then that community member wants to earn that soft currency because they like the creator or they

just want a reward in the shop and they go and do the thing that the creator or the community manager has said to do like you know like a post or repost or

comment or whatever and then they unlock rewards which sometimes that is stables.

It's whatever that specific community manager or creator puts in the shop to be able to do it. So there is like incentivized specific mechanisms in which that you can have but engage probably has the widest spectrum in

which that like you can actually juice specific numbers. Why do I say all of

specific numbers. Why do I say all of this?

You have to understand if you're a marketer or if you are somebody that's operating and spending budget for people, you have to be very careful on the way that you're spending because

you're usually spending mostly for attention and fake engagement or perception of motion and you make decisions on that perception, right? Because I've been on the back

right? Because I've been on the back ends. You tell your people on the

ends. You tell your people on the um you tell your people inside of like the deck that like, hey, we're getting this many impressions. We're getting

this many likes, we're getting this many posts, and people are making educated decisions based off of their past experiences of like, wow, in my experience, which a lot of these guys

are like boomers, all right? The people

that are founders and stuff, they're like Gen Xers and above. And what I mean by that is that they are on a perceived notion that like those impressions and

likes and things are much more like impressive than what they've seen in the past. And so they should proceed on with the direction that they're going or double down on it, which then gets

into the point where you have all of these creators that are really good at creating attention and perceived attention, but there's actually no conviction. So, this leads me to my

conviction. So, this leads me to my second like specific point of like perception as well as conviction. And

so, or not perception, but like attention versus conviction. You need

both to be able to create a very good like creator campaign. Like you do need like attention, you do need buzz, uh you need like also presence. So, there's

kind of like three areas. There's

presence, there's attention, so like really spikes of attention, and then there is also conviction. So people that are trusted voices in the space actually

believe in the project and the product and all that stuff to really move markets and move like a mint. That's

really what you want. And there's three different types of ways in which that you can do that. Like perception or perception, not persistence is mostly like what you're doing with like ICO beast, like with VO, with Coupe, with uh

Icy, with Gaming Daily, uh with Sam, with uh Gamified is that they just hear that name and people have like this type of like brand around a creator or person

that's really going to push that for a long time to be able to be like, okay, this person has been here for a very long time. attention is where everyone

long time. attention is where everyone pretty much puts all of their money into and it's pretty much goes to crap. And

the reason why is because of all of those specific tactics that I said.

Usually the budget goes to a creator um and you pay for that creator to then go and do either botted engagement just paying

a service either running uh a specific campaign with an alphabot to do a push to make them feel as if they're you're

getting a lot of value from them. Um and

you know I want to back up here like the value is still there. It's just numbers and it's vanity. Uh it's not going very hard on like conviction of like hey does

this actually produce revenue for the company and where I'm trying to go to.

And usually that that category of attention and moving specific people to purchase comes from the last one which is like conviction.

So like trusted voices in which that person says something are they going to listen and are they going to purchase?

And there's like usually a pretty clear distinction between people that are attention and people that are conviction. Uh and sometimes there are

conviction. Uh and sometimes there are both, but it's not usually the case.

Like ICOBS like Ansom, all those specific people have attention as well as conviction that if somebody says something about something, they are doing it. And usually it's based off of

doing it. And usually it's based off of like perceived experience or how they've performed in the in the past of making people money, which goes back to CK's thing of

you either in crypto make people money or you help them get status. Uh, and

it's really pretty black and white. And

it's unfortunate because that's what I'm going to talk to CK about today. It is

unfortunate that those are the only two categories that like seems to be working in crypto Twitter, which is, hey, how can I make money with the least

amount of effort or how can I get status um of like being right um for it, right?

Uh there was a lot of like uh Kevin Lambert's um you know he was talking about the different types of personas in you know the like web 3 gaming sphere

and I think one thing that I disagreed with him on was that he said that people just like want to make money and I think it's not even so much about making money

but I also think it's about the perception of them being right right and so that's it's like really important for a lot of crypto Twitter. I completely

forgot to repost on my uh Twitter. Dude,

I am so out of it today. Thank you guys for being patient with me.

One second, guys.

Yeah, I see. I do pay you uh to be here.

Thanks for being here, brother. Uh

thanks for being here. Yeah, Icy is saying that I pay him to to come to my streams. And I do. I do pay him to to come to my streams. Pay him with friendship and time. Um, and a lot of it. So, um, one [clears throat] second,

it. So, um, one [clears throat] second, guys. I just want to make sure I'm on

guys. I just want to make sure I'm on time as well, too. All right. So, we

still have some time before that. But,

yeah. So, to wrap to wrap this thing because I I'm like struggling to get past this segment. um when it when it comes down to it is that there's a lot of people that have the perception of

like motion but they do not actually a lot of it just is that they have attention um and attention does not actually generate like revenue uh for it right um

uh do I have a link or for that video it's not so much a link for the video it's a link for the uh his thing one Is that going to be?

Yeah. So,

yeah. So, Kevin Lambert has a article up at pinned up at the top. says like after slow cooking this article, you know, it says understanding the web 3 gaming market, Billy, Vinnie, and Chad. And the

way that he talks about it is that uh Billy is like the person that has intrinsic motivation to be able to like really do anything that like they want

to do. Um so like they play the games

to do. Um so like they play the games just for the games, for the game sake, for entertainment purely. uh for uh Vinnie is a person that's purely

going to be a person that extractive, right? So just Billy's in it for the

right? So just Billy's in it for the fun. Uh Vinnie is in it for show me the

fun. Uh Vinnie is in it for show me the money. So the only person is like, "Hey,

money. So the only person is like, "Hey, the only type of thing is show me the money." And in my opinion, Vinnie

money." And in my opinion, Vinnie is the crypto Twitter persona is like, "Hey, I want to make as much money as possible." But I disagreed with him for

possible." But I disagreed with him for his fact that I don't think it's just money. I think it's the status. So the

money. I think it's the status. So the

perception that like somebody is like right. And I actually told him um that I

right. And I actually told him um that I actually don't think that a creator or a

community member and I've seen this in inside of uh Wolves as well too.

[laughter] It's the person that like did not actually have a lot of conviction in the project but they have like said something right so the the status and we see this also on X. So I'll give you two

examples. one on X is because probably

examples. one on X is because probably the most prevalent that whenever you're scrolling on X, you'll kind of see what I'm talking about is that a it's a person that quote reposts their own call

like a couple months ago and those people produce status for their for their brand. It's like, hey, I'm right. You should listen to me moving

right. You should listen to me moving forward, right? And so that's one of

forward, right? And so that's one of those things that like it produces is this feeling that this person's always right. the next thing that they say, I'm

right. the next thing that they say, I'm not going to miss it. I'm going to listen to what they have to say in which that I am giving them some agency over my decision- making. Right? That is

something that's really big for crypto Twitter. And whenever we're talking

Twitter. And whenever we're talking about Vinnie here is that Kevin only talked about money. And money in my

opinion is, this is a hot take. I think money is not the primary currency in which that people want from crypto Twitter. I

actually think it's status. I think it's people feeling as if they need to be right um for it and they need to be right on a public specific sphere. You

know, this is why social cards are so important and we're going to talk to CK about that. We're going to talk about uh

about that. We're going to talk about uh different types of mechanisms in which that people get status. Um, and I think the the other thing that I will say about status is that like you see it

from the community level as well too. So

on the every community has such a a unique dynamic for wolves like you have a group of people that are very

like intelligent and the way that they put their thesises out there, right? Um

and there are also a lot of people that gloat uh for for that thesis mostly for the fact that it is what they are. Um like I think a lot of people want to be right in front

of their friends and a lot of their colleagues and they want to exert power over somebody else by saying that they are right. And I think that's the

are right. And I think that's the difficult part of like community specific drive is like especially like leading wolves. It's like wolves are

leading wolves. It's like wolves are always like people that bring up thesises and then always like point back on it. But on a long time horizon, you

on it. But on a long time horizon, you find the people that are actually like very smart and then a lot of people give agency over that person to make decision-m for them. There's like some good people that are like really good at

TA over a long period of time. They are

right and that's why people follow their next decision like Benjamin Cowan. A lot

of people give him a lot of power over that guy because he's been right on calling Bitcoin dominance for a long time and he just like calls what the chart says and then like that's it.

Really good in terms of commentary, right? And I think when it comes down to

right? And I think when it comes down to what we don't get in crypto Twitter is like the conviction which is like how much money that person put in. So that

person can be right with one token or a thousand tokens. it doesn't matter to

thousand tokens. it doesn't matter to them because if it doesn't matter to them if they have a one token or a thousand tokens it's because they're right and they're right in front of their colleagues which means that they

can gloat they can have fun and all that stuff. So um

stuff. So um yeah in terms of like V which you're kind of talking about I think that's a different dynamic as well too. So like

what's up AE? How are how you doing brother? Wolfwolf episode 7. You know V

brother? Wolfwolf episode 7. You know V you said it it does check out especially within last week people are calling out other people on posts instead of talking things with their DMs. I think unfortunately like once you get to a

certain like level as like a creator you also like know that like negative news sells and drama cells and so like you have like a lot of attention and I think

that's just what it comes down to is that like on a public sphere um I like doing my stuff through DMs. Um, I like checking on people. I like uh seeing how they do it, but like I'm also not that

big of a grader compared to like others because I'm not willing to do that. Um,

and even when I comment on something, it's usually in a very like arbitrary lesson type of way. Right? This is

probably the most direct I've been, which is like, hey, there's something that happened over the weekend. They had

a whole bunch of beef and a whole bunch of drama. But I wanted to narrow down on

of drama. But I wanted to narrow down on something that was a nugget in all of that, which is like, how actually do you tell if somebody's like botting or engagement farming like their audience

to be able to produce the perception that they have more motion than they actually do? Because at the end of the

actually do? Because at the end of the day, it's not so much at the end of the day, what a builder and what a product wants is that is

somebody going to be moved to be able to buy the thing that I'm currently trying to sell.

And you know, those three are like a really big thing. One is like your constant presence in the space goes a long way. especially like being loyal

long way. especially like being loyal and being around is is really big.

That's like the founder funnel that is pairing with people that are going to be advocates. So like ambassadors for

advocates. So like ambassadors for yours. Second is the like attention. You

yours. Second is the like attention. You

do need spikes of attention to be able to get people to see on a broader audience. And then third, when people

audience. And then third, when people are starting to do do their due diligence, is there conviction on it by a trusted agent or a trusted space? It's

usually working with different types of people that will push them over the edge that like, hey, this person worked for them. Think of it like as a leading

them. Think of it like as a leading investor on like a round for like investing, right? like you if A16Z leads

investing, right? like you if A16Z leads around, it's very different from you know mom and pop shop VC firm that hasn't made like a big specific mark on

like the venture capital space. So you

have a higher likelihood of success if that person's attached to the project.

And that's the same thing. That's why

like the graphics for like advisors or FOMO kind of kicks in is because what you're doing is that like hey I probably don't have time to be able to do all the due diligence but like this person seems

to be doing due diligence and it's it's it's decay or it grows. Everyone's like

stock in terms of like what it is is also fluctuating. And I think that's

also fluctuating. And I think that's what a lot of people don't really talk about is that people's stock goes up and down and people are given power and

taken power at any moment, right? And

that's that's something that you know real influence is not always on socials. Yeah, I don't think so. Uh I

socials. Yeah, I don't think so. Uh I

think there's a lot of power that that happens in the back back channels and a lot of the deals that happen on the back channels, right? Um there's a lot of

channels, right? Um there's a lot of different types of like marketing agencies um in which that they they do like look at like web two we have not like matured to the to the segment of

like web two um and you know this too Jorge like it's not just socials like there's a whole bunch of things that like you can do and you can move by just like talking to the right people right

um and I think that's a lot of the thing with like crypto Twitter too is that we have produced another rail for um communication and that's like through

like peer-to-peer messaging platforms. And that's mostly because like a lot of like people back in the day for like NFTTS or any of that stuff didn't let us like actually run ads. So we had to be very creative on the way that we

actually distributed our product which that's through content creators and like billboards. I call them like the

billboards. I call them like the billboards because like crypto Twitter is the place and the highway in which that we're going on, right? And we

scroll and you stop if you see a person that is like a really good billboard.

You know, there are people that I listen to that I have given agency that if they are partnered with a project, I will at least stop and listen. And then I scroll past the other people that are just mostly attention because I know that

they're getting their bag and that's really important. And I usually just

really important. And I usually just kind of take a picture in my mind of like, hey, this person is doing this or showing this and that means that person is willing to spend and kind of

understands crypto Twitter engagement.

If I just see attention purely then it shows me nah that's not something that really works well and then yeah I I think when it comes down to the other

mechanism which is like more Twitter spaces and being kind of like the the road show per se which is going to other different types of communities talking about uh different things and you know

doing the giveaways and doing all those specific things those are the other things of like influence that that kind of happens and then yeah other influence though too like Cory like you do like

actual ads right um and that's usually because you have a product that isn't solely needed for like NFTTS um that it's just a game and so that's it's a

little bit of a different talk for sure but yeah I cannot wait to talk to CK because I I've prepared his specific thing to talk about more about this and

more about like marketing and like the creator specific specific ones, but he's also done like Wfinder, right, which are like the the

engines on it.

Um, I want to talk to this one real quick. Uh,

quick. Uh, Monty, you said here, Monty said here, I'd say I know about the Vinnies. I'd

say I know and and for people that when I'm reading this out, Vinnie is people that are just solely in for like the money. So, there's Billy, Vinnie, and

money. So, there's Billy, Vinnie, and then there's Chads, right? The Billies

are the people that are just here for purely entertainment. Benny's are the

purely entertainment. Benny's are the ones that are here to extract and show me the money. Uh, and then the Chad is kind of a combination of both of like they're they like the ownership. They

like that mostly in the in the form of like gaming. Um, about the Vinnies, I'd

like gaming. Um, about the Vinnies, I'd say I know a few one uh onetoone with the Kevin uh uh presence in the article.

It even reaches a hyperbole hyperbole where they justify focusing solely on money based on a certain idea that they don't believe in the future of gaming plus web fee. Does arena leave anything on the table? Yeah, absolutely. I think

there's just like a a pretty cutthroat uh thing too is that like people it's such a hard cycle man. I know this is not solely answering your question

Monte or like you know addressing it directly but like it starts from the top right. It's a system in which that we've

right. It's a system in which that we've created to be able to create these mechanisms and tools to help give the projects what

they want and then the projects are getting what they want from VCs and centralized exchanges. There's almost

centralized exchanges. There's almost like no projects that are just doing and building things for the sake of just building really cool stuff. I think

everyone's chasing um the centralized exchange or the specific um yeah they're they're chasing centralized

exchanges or VC capital and usually that's also a moving target because they also don't know what they want really centralized exchanges if you boil it down to they want to get more members on their platforms to be able to create

more fees to create more revenue right um they also want more whales uh per se using their platform in which that they can have more liquidity going in moved over to their specific fees because it's

kind of like a modern-day bank, right?

And I think that's like very difficult to be honest um to to have that moving target. And so that's really what

target. And so that's really what centralized exchanges want and VCs want.

There's rarely any builders that are just currently building and trying to get traction and then from there like raising off of that, right? Um it's very

it's very tough. Um, and then from there you get this specific idea that like they don't believe in like gaming and web 3. But mostly it

starts from the top of like they don't know what they want. All they want is like a primary metric of people getting on the platform and using it. And so if

you want to be on this platform on a centralized exchange, you have to do what I have to say. And so projects do what they have to say, which is like usually getting a certain amount of followers, a certain amount of smart

followers, and you know, X, Y, and Z.

And then so they go and do that and they hit up the content creators that have those because Cookie 3 and all that specific stuff says that they have them.

And then creates this whole I don't know this like feeling that does not feel good. Like if I'm just being real, like

good. Like if I'm just being real, like it feels very synthetic, feels very like artificial. feels like I'm eating canned

artificial. feels like I'm eating canned food every single day and nothing's like really organic. Um, and again too like

really organic. Um, and again too like but it's also like very difficult like one thing that I want to say is like how do you compete in that? How do you compete in that environment where

everybody's using these engagement specific farming tools to be able to produce a certain amount of clout or attention motion as the kids

say it nowaday but really they don't they're just farming out their communities or farming out their specific ones. It's very

difficult, you know. It's a harsh reality, but I'm super excited to talk to CK about this topic. And I'm also excited

to talk to Tony about this topic, too.

Like, I think the people that we're going to be talking to is CK, Tony, and then Loaf, Lord of the Few. I would say that the three people that you got

first, which is me, CK, and then Tony, we're all marketing guys, right? So,

like understanding how to distribute product inside of like web 3 is like super important. So, yeah, we're we're

super important. So, yeah, we're we're going to get to it today. I'm super

pumped about it. Um, and so just to kind of give everybody a preview for today, we have myself. I just kind of monologued um and kind of talked about like the issues with like botting and

and all that stuff within um botting and engagement specific farming right for for X and just like

crypto Twitter in general but it's also not unique to us. Uh it's not unique to social media or unique to X. It's also

Twitch, Kick, you know, YouTube, Tik Tok, all kinds of stuff.

Um and then yeah then we're going to talk to CK here that does reach which is like a whole bunch of creator campaigns and creator central and then we are talking to Tony V which is cloud uh glitter cloud solutions who's like a

fractional CMO but also that fractional CMO has now uh ventured into making his own product which we're going to talk a little bit about that today too. Uh and

then lastly we're going to talk to Loaf um who's building out Daydreams and the X42 specific platforms uh as well too.

So really really pumped about uh that today. We got Lao in the building. I

today. We got Lao in the building. I

know I am really excited to talk to to talk to uh Loaf about that. The uh 402 payment standard which has been uh gaining a lot of traction lately is very interesting to to really just get the

the talk about it right. So this is kind of like the next like AI meta that people are kind of like bubbling up is like hey you know the AI meta last time didn't like really have substance but like what happens whenever you have a

402 protocol in which that NPCs and people are actually acting upon and buying and selling things for you autonomously. Um it's definitely some

autonomously. Um it's definitely some like iroot stuff and like I'm very like ignorant of it. Um but I still want to be part of it and like educate myself on it. Um, and then yeah, allow says life

it. Um, and then yeah, allow says life is a tension game. It's always has been.

Yeah, dude. Um, but I would say like, you know, attention does not equal conviction or selling or moving people to buy, right? So, I'm excited to talk

to CK about that here soon. I'll be

right back, guys. I think CK's in the waiting room and then I'll be there.

>> [music] >> When you meat, >> [music] >> Drop.

>> [music] [music] >> All All right, guys. We are going to be kicking off Alpha Wolves episode 7, first interview with Captain CK. And

Captain CK, I cannot wait to dive in, but I do have a bio for you. Uh, Captain

CK's story is proof that the best marketers in web 3 didn't come from ad agencies. They came from the trenches.

agencies. They came from the trenches.

In 2021, he wasn't raising rounds. He

was painting sneakers and helping indie projects find a voice. Three years

later, he's co-founded Wayfinder and Reach, the quiet engines behind campaigns for Arbitum, Ubisoft, and Animoka brands. CK doesn't just run

Animoka brands. CK doesn't just run influencer marketing, though. He reverse

engineered why influence works. Breaking

it down to three words: reach, authority, and product market fit. His

mission isn't to make things go viral.

It's to make them matter. Super excited

about today's topics. CK, how are you today, buddy? Welcome to Alpha Wolves.

today, buddy? Welcome to Alpha Wolves.

>> I am doing very well. Thank you so much for that eloquent intro. I'm I'm going to have to go back and listen to this podcast, man. I'm I'm excited to hear

podcast, man. I'm I'm excited to hear what I have to say.

>> Clip it. Clip it for the for the partner, man. It's like, hey, this

partner, man. It's like, hey, this person like talked about me, man. It was

pretty cool. Um, love love it, man. Also

got married at a young age as well, too.

So, we we have that in common as well.

Um, but dude, I want to go back to 2021.

Let's put us back uh there. It has been a while since then, but it was a crazy wild west. Um, there's a lot of lessons

wild west. Um, there's a lot of lessons learned, and one thing that I want to do is capture these lessons for future marketers, especially all the kind of like fumblings that we had back then,

right? And so kind of the evolution of

right? And so kind of the evolution of the creator economy um in like web 3 and we can also touch on wayfinder as well too. So I would love to touch on

too. So I would love to touch on wayfinder as well as what probably led you to to to found reach with with your three co-founders and then we can kind of go from there. But like take me back

to 2021. You know what's what's going

to 2021. You know what's what's going on?

>> Amazing. So back in 2021 I was on a mission to be the best trader in crypto.

I had my first trade. I I bought a Creature World NFT and I turned into 10 grand and all of a sudden I thought I was I thought I did it. I thought after my first trade I was the best trader in crypto. I cracked it. I cracked the

crypto. I cracked it. I cracked the code. I was ready to retire my parents

code. I was ready to retire my parents and the whole deal. But um over the next six months I quickly found out that I suck at trading and that's kind of what led me into the business sphere. And so

at the time I was actually painting custom shoes and selling them on my college campus. And so I essentially

college campus. And so I essentially pivoted that business into crypto which is kind of how I got my start in crypto business. I

business. I >> will show you this was from my first business. This is my pair of custom

business. This is my pair of custom sneakers. It's a hard project NFT. So I

sneakers. It's a hard project NFT. So I

used to paint NFTs on shoes and >> um and sell those to people. And so that was my first business in the space. But

I after that kind of got into the crypto hustle culture. Yeah.

hustle culture. Yeah.

>> Doing like collabs, alpha calling the whole deal. uh which eventually led me

whole deal. uh which eventually led me towards marketing. I landed a marketing

towards marketing. I landed a marketing role with a crypto project and with a founder who'd worked on a few cool projects and so I got to work with him and >> I had no frame of reference for what

marketing looked like to what you said in the intro. I hadn't come from an ad agency. I was at the time a sophomore in

agency. I was at the time a sophomore in college studying entrepreneurship. And

so I just kind of reasoned from first principles what I thought marketing should look like. And it happened to come out pretty good. And a lot of people really resonated with the way that I did marketing because this was

again back in 2021. If you just, you know, try to put yourself into the mind of someone in that bull run. Like it was a crazy time. People were buying monkey pictures for like hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, it wasn't it

wasn't grounded in reality. And so I tried to take a more realistic approach to marketing because I was like, well, this whole ape thing, people buying monkey pictures for all this money, whatever, this whole thing didn't make a ton of sense. And so I tried to bring

like some tangibility to marketing which is what a lot of people really resonated with at the time just going a lot of the more organic route rather than trying to

like pump numbers and create perception like it's reality versus perception. So

we tried to do real marketing >> and that's kind of where Go ahead.

>> Oh one thing I want to ask you CK is like in terms of the uh first principles you kind of mentioned that I I love first principle type of thinking. What

was that first principal type of thinking that you were really just trying to go to? And that that might be more of what you you kind of ended with which is like hey like there is like this perception and I think what the hard thing about crypto as well too is

just like it seems like so saturated and very like synthetic, right? It seems

like there's just a lot of like mechanisms and tools for enhancing perception but not actually conviction, right? Um and so like what were the

right? Um and so like what were the first principal thinkings that you had back then?

>> I don't think back then I would have had the words. Mhm.

the words. Mhm.

>> So I'll share with you the words that I have today.

>> And so the words that I have today for the abstract thoughts I had back then is that marketing is a force multiplier for product.

>> And product is what it is that you're offering that people are interested in.

In some cases, this is a product like Kaiito might be an actual platform that people are interacting with. In some

cases, it's a meme that people are speculating on. You look like Pangu like

speculating on. You look like Pangu like it's a brand that people are investing in. So it varies. But I think the first

in. So it varies. But I think the first principle behind the way that I thought about marketing then and still think about it today is that marketing is a force multiplier for product and that

that's kind of where the roots are is that the root is in the tangibility of what it is that you've actually built and then marketing is just how do you connect what it is that you've built to people in a way that it'll resonate with

them.

>> Very cool. Sorry I interrupted you though. You were about to talk about

though. You were about to talk about wayfinder and and reach and kind of how you got to that that specific journey.

Yes. Yes. So from there we or I guess from my first role in marketing I began doing independent consulting because I was fortunate enough to have created some good case studies for myself which

I then leveraged into getting to work with a lot of cool brands. Got to bring a bunch of cool web 2 IPs into crypto and work with various brands and this kind of led me into starting my first

business. At the time I met Tom, Bill

business. At the time I met Tom, Bill and Declan who are my co-founders within reach as well as for Wayfinder and we started our first business together which was wayfinder >> and wayfinder was our creative marketing

agency. So it's like if you think about

agency. So it's like if you think about marketing as a pie, we offered the whole pie. And so we started that and again

pie. And so we started that and again just really tried to take what we were doing with I guess as individuals doing

independent consulting and do it in a much more organized and professional way under the umbrella of wayfinder. So

that's essentially where our first business came from and what we did. We

never saw like any crazy business success for ourselves. We made some awesome case studies. because we had some awesome results for some of our clients, but it never really turned into anything really crazy for us. And so a

few months into starting Wavefinder, a very clear trend appeared and this was crypto projects want to work with crypto kosols. You know, they see people they

kosols. You know, they see people they see these Kols on the timeline talking about projects and they see this causal link between hey K's talking about a project, >> people are now interested in this project. You know, people tweet about

project. You know, people tweet about Pudgy Penguins, Pudgy Penguins is successful. So obviously now they want

successful. So obviously now they want us being their marketing team to go and get the KLs to talk about them, right?

>> We're like, "Okay, sounds good. We're

going to go and do this." And so we try to go and talk to Ks. We, you know, go and DM Ks we didn't know. We talked to the Ks we do know. And frankly, there was just there was no infrastructure or business practice around K marketing.

>> Yeah.

>> And what this means is like K marketing is a relationship. It's a relationship between a brand and a creator. The

brand's giving some sort of payment and the creator is giving some sort of content. And since nobody had a ton of

content. And since nobody had a ton of experience doing this relationship, >> it was just very very difficult to manage because Koss didn't know how to charge. We didn't know what it actually

charge. We didn't know what it actually looked like to have commercial agreements with Koss. Um the Koss didn't know what type of content the brand wanted. Like all that infrastructure,

wanted. Like all that infrastructure, all the stuff that feels like second nature today was not then. And so we were like, "Okay, clearly we're out of our depth here. Let's go and find somebody who has experience doing this."

and we went and looked for that person and we couldn't find anyone. We actually

found that lots of our competitors, lots of the other agencies just had the exact same problem. And so this painted a

same problem. And so this painted a beautiful opportunity for us which is really where Reach was born out of and this was solving this problem for everybody, >> right?

>> You know, and this was this was kind of the root of Reach. And then leading into the actual story of Reach, we founded Reach as a single touch point to crypto's best creators. We built Reach for about a year without seeing really

much success at all. For that time, it was like Wayfinder is probably 80% 80 85% of our revenue and then Reach was like this little 20% slice where we get a few clients a month.

>> And then after a year, we switched the way our business worked because we had a philosophy that changed the way that we acted as a business. And one of the

things that we noticed is that whenever what what we functionally do at Reach is we sit between creators and brands. And

our business philosophy until then had always kind of been okay, we need to create great results for the brands and they'll continue coming back to us. And

what we noticed is brands would come and go, the creators would always stay. And

so this kind of >> realization changed the way we thought about reach. And we really reentered

about reach. And we really reentered ourselves at this one-year mark to become a more creator focused ecosystem.

And this is where our mission of helping creators win came from. And so this led to us starting what we call our flagship program, which is our full management program for crypto creators. Our first

two creators within it were Shiv and Whale, which at that point like everything started taking off. Like

we've grown very, very significantly >> since we introduced the flagship program. And we believe that this is

program. And we believe that this is because of us having significant alignment with our vision of helping creators win. We believe that the

creators win. We believe that the goodwill that we've developed through creating good relationships is why we're successful. And that's really what we're

successful. And that's really what we're here to do as a business is just help creators win.

>> So that's my story. That's wayfinder

reach. That's kind of how all of this came to be.

>> Yeah, dude. It's it's freaking awesome.

I I think it's in terms of of what I agree with you a lot on that the creators are the ones that are kind of staying right and the brands kind of circle out and everything like that.

I've been at three like game companies as well and so there's just a lot of uh projects that kind of cycle out they run out of money or whatever it is but the people that are currently building the culture and the the community of like

you know CT or whatever we want to call it is still the ones that are currently still here. And you know, one thing that

still here. And you know, one thing that you also mentioned um was in one of the podcasts you talk about like status and money as like the two main currencies of like crypto culture, right? Which is

like one of it being like money is like the you have to either get people money like make people money like kind of like Kaido or any of these ones like um uh ones that have like been able to really trigger people to be like, "Hey, I'm

going to make you money, so you should like follow my project or be a part of my project." Uh and then the other one

my project." Uh and then the other one is like status, which you talked about like social cards and all that stuff.

like is that the I want to kind of also dubtail this question to like status and money but also like do you think that's sustainable for like crypto Twitter right like do you think that like status

and money is like the only key things that we should be going into or is there also like CT is the only destination for it because I've also seen like uh people like leave too like they make a certain

amount of money and then like they're gone from crypto Twitter like a lot of the people that I used to follow have like fallen off per se as well to because they made it or whatever it is and they go golf and I I see their

specific things on on on uh CT. But do

you think that status and money is sustainable long term?

>> I'll divide this into two parts. First,

I'll comment on status and money and my thoughts on that and then I'll talk about you know sustainability of this and I might ask you what that second part was because I might forget.

Let's go to status and money first.

>> So status and money first. So I believe that the first principle underlying all success in crypto is creating wealth or status for people because these are the only two things that people in crypto

actually want. This is very clearly

actually want. This is very clearly observable if you look at every single successful project in crypto. It comes

down to either making people money or gaining them status or both. Making

people money is better than gaining status but gaining status works too.

These are like again it's underlying every successful product in crypto. Um,

so that's the first piece is that again this is what I believe the first principle for success in crypto is.

That's why we're successful as a business. We help creators gain status

business. We help creators gain status and we help creators make money. By that

logic we've become successful. Itto it

makes creators money and it gains them status. It is successful. Bitcoin all

status. It is successful. Bitcoin all

the people who bought Bitcoin early made a ton of money and gain status in the process. You can play this game with any

process. You can play this game with any product that's successful in crypto. All

of them it's that way. This is not the case in web 2, but for like for context, like your iPhone, my iPhone doesn't make me money or gain me status. But that's

because the incentives outside of crypto are different because people in crypto only care about two things, making money, gaining status. So this is why I believe that's the case. Now looking at

is this sustainable? So

I believe that the principle that I shared people in crypto only want two things, money and status is reality. And

I believe that anything beyond that are values. So, do I think that crypto would

values. So, do I think that crypto would be better off if those were not the only things we cared about? Yes. I would love for that to be the case, but it's not

the case. And

the case. And >> culture and incentives in the way that I'm describing them >> are created in aggregate. The reason I say people in crypto only care about two

things is because these are the the only people in crypto are the ones who care about these things. like the people on crypto Twitter.

>> Um, so there's like two parts to it.

There's crypto Twitter and then there's crypto.

>> Yeah, >> crypto Twitter people only care about making money and gaining status.

>> Now crypto is a lot bigger than crypto Twitter and it should be. Crypto is

going to go on to do awesome things that crypto Twitter does not deserve to be a part of because [laughter] all we care about here is making money and gaining status. And so do I think crypto Twitter

status. And so do I think crypto Twitter would be better off if that were not the case? Yes. Right. Is it the reality

case? Yes. Right. Is it the reality nonetheless? Yes. And do I think that's

nonetheless? Yes. And do I think that's ever going to change for crypto Twitter?

No. But it doesn't matter because crypto is much bigger than crypto Twitter and it's going to go on to do amazing things for the world. And we're gonna get to ride that wave anyway. And it's going to make a lot of us really wealthy and help a lot of us gain status regardless.

>> Yeah, very true. That's a that's very well spoken. I think when it comes down

well spoken. I think when it comes down to like crypto Twitter and then also like crypto uh it's it's a very good distinction to have because whenever we're having that conversation it can sometimes get muddy of like people think

that crypto is crypto Twitter and that's not the case. So we're actually in a very like tight bubble uh when it comes down to it. Um I I do really want to get to like reach authority and product market fit of like kind of like how you

do it. And one of the things that I

do it. And one of the things that I monologued before this CK was like the kind of like and you've talked about this on the podcast too is like this kind of like

fake engagement uh that's kind of been like plaguing a lot of crypto Twitter as well too. Like we have a lot of tools in

well too. Like we have a lot of tools in which that like you can like synthetically like boost numbers. First

of all, you can like honestly just like buy out like likes and reposts and comments. You also have like alphabot

comments. You also have like alphabot which that you dangle a carrot in front of like specific communities to be able to like push a post or whatever it is.

And then you also have like you know engage bot or any of these specific ones to have a soft currency to be able to to push a community to do it. So like what do you think about like and especially

you're about curation but like reach seems to be one of the hardest things to really see if somebody actually has reach. Have you guys like I know your

reach. Have you guys like I know your guys company is called reach but have you guys like really thought about that and how to guard against that because like one of the things that I'm trying to do is also help founders and

marketers to like understand that like somebody might not be natural and they might not be organic that they're just like pumping numbers. Have you like been able to teach other founders how to see that or sometimes I even get confused

and I'm in it. You know

>> I don't think that there's an awesome way. I do think that it's less about

way. I do think that it's less about being able to look at an account and black and white tell is this account bought it or not in like a second. But

there's a spectrum between being able to tell and not tell where it's like on one end you look at every profile and you can't tell at all if anyone's bought it or not. And then on the other end it's

or not. And then on the other end it's you can tell everybody. Um I think in between those two boundaries there's a place at which you can efficiently tell with most profiles. I think the easiest

way to tell is the combination of reach and authority which it's authority is really unmeasurable. This is the

really unmeasurable. This is the difficult thing. Authority for context

difficult thing. Authority for context reach is the number of people who seek content. Authority is a percentage of

content. Authority is a percentage of people who actually care what the K has to say. Um so the best way I can

to say. Um so the best way I can articulate authority is if I were to tell to if I were to tell you, you know, Payton, you need to go buy Ethereum.

It's about it's about a rip. Ethereum is

about a rip. And then ICO Beast goes and DMs you and says, "Hey, I know CK told you you'd buy ETH, but you should go buy Avac instead." Avac just gonna rip. Who

Avac instead." Avac just gonna rip. Who

are you gonna listen to? You're gonna

listen to ICO Beast every time because everyone's going to go and listen to ICO Beast before they listen to me because he has more authority. This is what authority is. Um, the best way that I

authority is. Um, the best way that I know to measure this is followers in common. It is actually a very good

common. It is actually a very good metric and it's very, very, very hard to bot.

>> I should say it's I don't it's not possible to bot. There are ways to game it but >> right, >> it's not it's not super gameable. So,

it's always pretty accurate. And so,

>> um I guess the easiest way to tell like sends check quickly if an account is real is to look at their followers in common. If they have like no followers

common. If they have like no followers in common and they're getting hundreds of thousands of views a post, they're like definitely without a doubt a botted account. Um if they have a lot of

account. Um if they have a lot of followers in common and they happen to be botting, you can still tell. You can

just look at the ratio between the different things. is like if they're

different things. is like if they're getting 50 retweets per post, then like nobody gets 50 retweets per post. Like

>> that's not that's not how crypto Twitter works. Everyone's not reposting

works. Everyone's not reposting everything. So

everything. So >> it's it can be easy to tell. But the

easiest way is followers and comment.

That's that's what I use whenever I'm senseing accounts.

>> And then the last one uh to kind of just round it out is like product market fit, right? And there's probably a lot of

right? And there's probably a lot of people that come to you and do you usually go through the lens of like product market fit as like man people that are in my network aren't going to receive this well and so do you

just tell them like right from rip like hey like this isn't going to work and is it usually about status and money um before like you either turn them down from like a reach perspective or like have you also gotten ever push back from

like creators on that end of like hey this is just not >> you know how I operate or how I think it will Yeah. So on the product market fit side,

Yeah. So on the product market fit side, yes. If we see a product that we do not

yes. If we see a product that we do not think is up to the standard of our creators, we will not send them offers.

We will tell the client that we do not think that you're qualified and we will refer them to another provider. There

are times where the creators themselves will say, "Hey, this is not for me. This is not the right fit with my audience." Um, with all of that being said, like our core core goal as a

business is to bring creators deals to help them monetize. Above everything

else, that's what we're here to do.

We're here to help creators win.

>> And so, we do what's in the best interest of that. Um, which is sending as many deals as possible to our creators and giving them as many choices as possible. Um, so what I think it

as possible. Um, so what I think it takes to create a great result is reach, authority, and product market fit, which is the frame that you were describing in this case, >> which is yours. By the way, I want to make that very clear. I took that from a

podcast in which that you were talking about that very elegantly by the way.

Reach, authority, and product market fit.

>> Yes. But with reach, authority, and product market fit, we believe this is what creates successful outcomes in influencer marketing. So this is like

influencer marketing. So this is like the client wants to get a great result.

We tell them this is what you need to do. You need reach and authority, which

do. You need reach and authority, which is what we bring for them. And it's

their responsibility to build a great product that's going to resonate with the audience. And sometimes that's the

the audience. And sometimes that's the case, and sometimes it's not. But again,

our core goal as a business here is to as much as possible help creators win.

>> Yeah, I love that. Like, where are you going with all of this? like CK like in terms of like is it to expand reach into more creators and teaching them up to be like more powers and giving people

status to be able to increase reach's network and provide value for your clientele or is there a whole like different types of of things that you're you're wanting to to bring with with your co-founders for reach and maybe even Wayfinder. I know Wayfinder still

even Wayfinder. I know Wayfinder still you guys kind of flipped it but like uh in terms of that.

>> Yeah. So, as far as where we're going, there's the common thread, which is our mission to help creators win. Everything

we do is going to be tied to this. So,

that's the easiest way to think about it. But within that, there's certain

it. But within that, there's certain checkpoints. There's like one that's,

checkpoints. There's like one that's, hey, we want to get as many good creators on board so we can create more value for more people. Another one is, well, maybe we want to expand multiplatform that allows us to reach

more creators and secure more deals for our creators, therefore helping them win more, you know? Or maybe it's shifting outside of web 3. Like there's different checkpoints that fit into this. I would

say >> with that being said, like the meta lessons are like one, again, just helping creators win. Everything ties to that. And two,

that. And two, >> really trying to just make the next right decision. That's been one of my

right decision. That's been one of my big lessons throughout my whole journey is like we make plans to >> achieve a desired outcome, but very

often we get deep into a plan and then find out it wasn't the right thing. And

so for us, it's like while we have these things that in our minds make sense, it's, you know, we might get to the first checkpoint and find out the second one doesn't make sense because it's not what's in the best interest of helping our creators win.

>> Love it. I know that you got to get going soon, but like you know you talked a little bit about multiplatform, you know, for a creator that's maybe starting and you know, kind of going into it. Do you still think that crypto

into it. Do you still think that crypto Twitter is the avenue in which that people should pursue or is there other specific mechanisms or platforms in which that they should be like, okay,

I'm going to try to make a very unique statement here. You kind of talked about

statement here. You kind of talked about that guy type of of thing of like, hey, being that guy is like, would you like support YouTube or do whatever and being that guy on that and then like or is it like, hey, you should probably stay

within the confines of crypto Twitter and be a that guy on crypto Twitter.

>> The best thing you can do to make money sustainably as a content creator in crypto is to be that guy in the biggest pond possible. So pond is your niche.

pond possible. So pond is your niche.

It's like the you can have really small ponds, you can have an ocean. That's

that's your niche, you know. I am in a small niche which is crypto marketing.

This is what I have authority on. And

whenever I talk about going and buying Ethereum, nobody listens to me. People

only listen to me about marketing and creat.

>> No, they shouldn't. They should not.

Remember the beginning. I'm a bad trader. Bad. Don't buy me.

trader. Bad. Don't buy me.

>> He was good. Right. I I've I've known ISOBS for a very long time. All right. I

will tell you right now, he has not hit 100%. I'm gonna tell you right now,

100%. I'm gonna tell you right now, >> I believe that. I believe that. Um

that's that's for the people in the audience to decide if they want to listen to me. Um but they shouldn't bite you because I told them to.

>> Okay.

>> Not financial advice. [laughter] Anyway,

>> um can you remind me the thread I was on?

>> Uh for Sorry, I I completely derailed both of us. Um I think it's a multiplatform and then the aspect of like you know having a pond and being able to go into that niche of like you

know crypto marketing is your authority >> and then I derailed you apologies.

>> You're all good. Perfect. So so my niche is influencer marketing and content creation. So I have authority within

creation. So I have authority within these things. Wales is kind of what

these things. Wales is kind of what everyone wants to talk about because there's so much authority. I'm a pond.

He's an ocean.

>> In order for you to be most successful, you want to be that guy. This means you want people to see your profile and say, "Oh, he's the insert thing guy. He's the

>> with pics. He's the investigation guy with Clemente. He's that guy who does

with Clemente. He's that guy who does dances every time Bitcoin hits an all-time high.

>> You know, he's that guy." You know, you you want to be that guy in the biggest pond possible, >> right?

>> Um, now I believe that in your growth journey, you have to start in small ponds and then increase your pond. Like

what is it? Ponds then lakes then oceans. you have to grow your niche as

oceans. you have to grow your niche as you gain authority within them. Um, I

say this to say how this model then ties to going and trying to, you know, explore multiplatform. If you want to be

explore multiplatform. If you want to be a Tik Tok exclusive creator and make that your pond, you can. It's a pretty small pond because, and I mean this in the sense that there aren't many brand sponsoring content on Tik Tok, right?

But if you are the that guy of Tik Tok, then you're going to get all of the deals that do come to Tik Tok and you're going to be balling out way more than an average creator on crypto Twitter, right? Or another path is you start on

right? Or another path is you start on Tik Tok, you become the that guy on Tik Tok and then you transition to Twitter because you've built so much authority on Tik Tok that now your authority spans

on to Twitter. So there's many ways up the mountain of becoming a successful creator, but the common thread here is you want to be really recognizable for one thing. This is the that guy effect.

one thing. This is the that guy effect.

And you want to start in small ponds and grow your pond as you go. If you want the pond to be a different platform, you can um because other platforms are much less competitive. There's less people

less competitive. There's less people posting on Instagram, on Tik Tok, on etc. about crypto, but there's also way less sponsors. So,

less sponsors. So, >> right.

>> Again, it's many ways up the mountain.

>> Yeah. No, it's a really good take as well, too. I have one actually question

well, too. I have one actually question from the audience and then um I would I would love to I know you got to get going a hard stop but is like you know people taking into like account like ethos scores of like Kos is there any

like specific tooling out there that you think that is very useful for like a founder? We kind of talked about a

founder? We kind of talked about a little bit of like cookie 3 Kaido specific smart followers and all that stuff but is like ethos or any of those specific ones you think those are are going in the right direction or can be

gamed? I think sometimes for me it's

gamed? I think sometimes for me it's like that can kind of be gamed by relationship a little bit. Um, and it's kind of like favoritism, right? Like it

was so funny in in terms of like ethos.

You saw all the collab managers get like 100% ethos [laughter] scores for the fact that no one wants to lose out on collabs, right? So like what what do you

collabs, right? So like what what do you do with that?

>> Yeah. So [snorts]

what what you want if you're going to use a platform is you want a platform that's based off of objective metrics, not on subjective metrics. So, um, if

you look at ethos, I think it's an awesome tool and I think it should continue to be used, but it is very subjective. If you look at the

subjective. If you look at the leaderboards, a lot of the leaderboards, they don't necessarily make sense. Like

you said, cloud managers are too high and then people who say controversial things are often too low and a lot of controversial things need to be said.

Like you see people fighting Zack XPTt.

He just says what need say says what needs to be said you know and platforms that are very subjective aren't going to optimize correctly right so I I don't know if I'd recommend ethos I do think

it's worth looking at like if you're really investigating a creator that is a great tool to look at just you have to look at it with nuance not as like some objective measure and then on the other

side platforms like cookie 3 or platforms like um Kaito all the infoy platforms these are going to be a lot more objective it's going to be you know they're looking at metrics. They're

looking at the way accounts engage together and they're deciding which accounts belong where in a leaderboard and go and look at the leaderboard.

Generally, the the actual project leaderboards sometimes don't make sense, but like the crypto Twitter leaderboards, those are really good and they're really accurate and YAPs like that's that's a good metric for example

that you could use to attribute like how valuable is this creator compared to another creator. I think these are all

another creator. I think these are all like really really useful tools that founders should definitely take advantage of because I'm 100% sure you're not going to figure out if they're valuable scrolling their timeline. That never works.

timeline. That never works.

>> Absolutely. Last minute CK, I know I want I want to keep you on time. I want

to be that guy. Um, you know, where can people find you? I already have your your uh handle down there, but like where can people find you? Where can

people maybe join a part your vision, you know?

>> Yeah. So, the best place to stay in touch with me is just my Twitter account, Captain CK on on X. You can

yeah just follow my account, keep in touch. We are good at posting stuff. We

touch. We are good at posting stuff. We

also have the Reach Network account. You

can keep an eye on us there. And then

finally, if you want to be a client or creator, you can check out our website and we have intake forms for both. And

so that's my piece. That's how you can stay in touch with me.

>> All right, you the man CK. I appreciate

you, brother. And thank you so much. I

know that we probably have You look tired, dude. Freaking get some sleep. Uh

tired, dude. Freaking get some sleep. Uh

I know you've been freaking grinding and you're super busy and I'm super happy that you're busy. Would love to stay in touch and I'll see you on the next one, buddy.

Appreciate you, man. Good chatting.

We'll be in touch.

>> Peace.

>> All right, guys. That was a awesome talk with CK. There's a lot of things that we

with CK. There's a lot of things that we can like go into and dove and tell into um a lot of the questions that I was asking. Um apologies for also some

asking. Um apologies for also some people that wanted to maybe know um uh about some other things uh on it. I

really wanted to kind of kind of dive deep into a talk that he had on a on a podcast earlier like a couple weeks ago and it was really talking about double

clicking into like the the power status type of thing that uh he was kind of talking about and that was something that I I really wanted to touch on. U

but we got some new people in the building. I appreciate it. Hey Doug

building. I appreciate it. Hey Doug

Hype, how you doing today brother? Uh

cheap viewersstreamboo.com.

No thank you. I appreciate it though.

Uh, Zo Wei is here. Zo with Slayer at theat. I'm late, but I'm here now. I

theat. I'm late, but I'm here now. I

appreciate you. Uh, so, welcome friends.

And then, yeah. Hey, P Money. What's up,

Doug? How are you, brother? Um, yeah.

And then, so we kind of talk about like authority in the space. I I think it just really comes down to like authority and and status. And, you know, it's hard

to to see like when people are like who has authority or not, right? I think it's like very difficult to to do, right? Um

and so really really excited about just talking with him. Um I wish I had more time. Um but he had he definitely had a

time. Um but he had he definitely had a hard stop and so I wanted to make sure that I was good that good good there. Um

yeah, the guy is super chill so and he also has like a a few co-founders as well too for like um you know reach and all that stuff like really really cool.

And then yeah uh oh my bad my bad. Um thank you. Thank

you. So, I know I was floundered on that. I I was trying to make a joke um

that. I I was trying to make a joke um and then it ends up being uh ends up kind of ruining it for myself uh on that but

really really excited to to talk to Tony, my friend next rather. Uh yeah, I definitely need to like um uh

not be the first one that starts like I think you know talking to people is like always what kind of gets me energized and then be able to like move to like

the the next topic, right? Um

but yeah. Um yeah, so and so together again uh on on the specific chat. Uh but

to to let people know what we have next, we have uh Captain CK Reach. We just

finished up that uh conversation with him. And then we have Tony V,

him. And then we have Tony V, Glittercloud Solutions. Um he's like

Glittercloud Solutions. Um he's like does fractional CMO stuff. So like kind of knowing what I've done with Tony in the past. We're going to talk about like

the past. We're going to talk about like kind of like web 3. He has also specific experience before like he was like a Nintendo, he was like at EA, Amazon,

pretty much uh developed the whole sub thing and then um went into creating Shopnel right with the guys.

really cool to kind of get his lessons and stuff that he learned and then uh moving into stuff because I think it's really what it comes down to. Um

being able to have a conversation with somebody that has been in the trenches with you. You can talk about you can

with you. You can talk about you can talk to CK, right? Like a lot of the conversations that we had were like the second level. Um, and apologies for

second level. Um, and apologies for people that are maybe like on the 101 level for like marketing and stuff, but I really wanted to talk about and capture lessons of things that are like

higher than that. And there are like nuance things to marketing, especially within web 3 marketing, that people have like authority in that niche. And

definitely CK has worked with so many creators and all that stuff um for for a long time. And so I wanted to talk to

long time. And so I wanted to talk to it. Um,

it. Um, Zo Sora videos, bro. Sor Sora videos have been freaking popping on yours, man. Really excited about that. Um, and

man. Really excited about that. Um, and

then loud verse being silent in conversation is hard. It definitely is.

I think talking and monologuing is something I just need to get better at.

Like it's not something that I'm naturally gifted at. Even though I can yap um for a living and dance, um, usually I need it better. Like I was trying to like have an outline ready to

go uh for it. And yeah, I just I I ended up like kind of tripping over my words because I was trying to find the outline. Um but definitely definitely

outline. Um but definitely definitely tough. Um but yeah, really great combo.

tough. Um but yeah, really great combo.

Thanks, Lao. Appreciate it. Appreciate

you, brother. Um

Zo, like is there credits for Sora Zo?

Like do you do you have to run credits and stuff for it?

Very nice pump cover. I definitely I did not get a pump today. Uh so you can stop that.

Um but yeah, so hopefully uh what's it called? We also get Loaf. Um so just for

called? We also get Loaf. Um so just for people's like understanding, I he confirmed and he also has like the meeting, but like I'm hoping that he also uh confirms, but he has not

confirmed at least via like expost this morning. Um so see

morning. Um so see uh that hoodie looks like it's very nice like pump cover. Is this Wolves merch for sale? No. Payton's gatekeeping.

for sale? No. Payton's gatekeeping.

Absolutely. Talk to Lao guys. I'm not in charge of it. Not in charge of it. Lao

and Sam has also made this one. So, we

have to figure out the supplier for this one. But, this one's like really fun.

one. But, this one's like really fun.

Um, like I would say Hannah definitely likes this one the most on me because it's like the length and stuff like that is good. So,

is good. So, yeah. So,

yeah. So, it's hot in here though. The there's

like fall and so like the heat's kind of on. Jeez. Definitely definitely get

on. Jeez. Definitely definitely get stuff.

But dude, it's Yeah, it's been a a journey, man.

Yo, Skyline's been freaking just commenting on everything.

So, super excited.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No credits. Yeah.

It's in the works.

[laughter] It's definitely been in the works. It's

been in the works for three years though right?

So, it's been a while, guys. It's been a while.

Oh, no credits.

That's crazy. Bro,

I wonder how they're like making They're probably not making any money. I

personally like V3 better to be honest.

Like I I enjoy V3 like much better as like a platform and then like I like using all the other specific um

platforms as well too, which is like I think they're just dope.

Nice. Oh, what's it called? There's uh

Taylor ID. What's up with the hearts, brother? How are you, brother? Hopefully

brother? How are you, brother? Hopefully

you're doing well. We're kind of like waiting for uh Tony and then I'm also just getting kind of uh digesting a lot of the stuff from CK. So, I'm just taking some notes real quick. Um,

[clears throat] oh [laughter] my bad. So, do you think I'm using that

my bad. So, do you think I'm using that to pump my videos? Yeah, dude. It's like

it's tough though, man. Like, I would say that like being being like a natty like creator nowadays is like freaking tough.

Like, can we just talk real for a second? like being a natural creator of

second? like being a natural creator of like hey letting the algorithm do its work is like freaking hard. Um like I think the

incentives and the mechanisms in which that we like build are like really really tough. So um so saying yes

really tough. So um so saying yes they're losing for sure it's a strat of almost 99% of all AI companies release burn through money capture market share then figure out monetization. Yeah, and

that's just like a lot of like the VC specific things is like, you know, get as much users as possible, take an L on the stuff in frontand and it works, but like you need a turn on monetization,

right? Like even for Kazuna, we're

right? Like even for Kazuna, we're talking a lot about that right now, which is like being able to offer like service for free. Um, and then see how expensive it is because of like server

runs and server costs and then from there, you know, see what we got. Um,

and then because that distribution like helps, right, of being inside of Discords.

Um, is for the person AI peon AI creator.

Okay. No, I was I'm not saying that it's not impressive, Zo. I'm saying that Sora I don't know how they're like they're

losing so much money on each generation cost, you know. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. AI companies I would say like even Discord like Discord has not like flipped a profit to be honest. It's been like really rough for

honest. It's been like really rough for them.

So, we'll see.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. Um, but like in terms of like the the bots and stuff too, like you know, I think what's hard about like the whole engagement bot stuff, and I know that um CK didn't

really touch on it too much. Uh maybe if in a in another conversation I can I can touch on it with him, but like the engagement stuff is like so difficult to

detect, right? Like you have like engage

detect, right? Like you have like engage bot which is you create a soft currency for your community. You create that soft currency and then you be able to go in

and do it. Or even like the specific price pool stuff like everything is incentivized inside of like crypto Twitter and like that is like

another version of ad spend, right? like

you're spending money on incentivized programs for them to show up and to hopefully listen. And

I think that's like the issue that I have with a lot of this stuff is that like people are not there to listen.

Like they're just there to just get the reward and they don't really care about anything. They'll just

do what's bare minimum for it. Um and

then that. So I think that's what's like hard for me. Like what do you guys think? Like do you guys think that like

think? Like do you guys think that like people and like I guess on my my more direct question is like do you guys think that people are

it's like totally fine to do that which is like hey have all these engagement systems and if it is okay is there layers to it like is it okay to like just like bot followers and bot bot

views to be able to like bump yourself up to become higher on it. Right? So,

like for example, um we're completely natural in terms of like how much people like we have here, right? But do you just like boost this

right? But do you just like boost this to be able to do that? And the same thing goes for Twitch, right? So Twitch

goes the same thing is like you have, you know, you bought these specific views to move higher up on the Twitch feed.

And then you, you know, these people are the ones that have like, you know, viewers and then like people bought views to be

able to move up in these specific ones.

And is that like just kind of the the new meta because like you have everybody's doing it, so how do you guard against it, you know? Anyways, we

can talk about that. Um,

yeah, it's a double-edged sword. X

punishes heavily when you bought. Yeah,

for sure. Um,

yeah. Anyway, so we we'll talk a little bit later. I'm gonna go uh chat with

bit later. I'm gonna go uh chat with Tony real quick and then um I'll be right back.

[music] >> [music] >> Hey, [music] hey hey.

[music] All right.

All right.

Hey.

Let's go.

>> What is up? Here we go. Here we go. We

are on interview number two and it's with none the other. Tony V. I freaking

love him, dude. Um, we're going to talk about his bio, but I'm also going to do a free cuff, which I usually do this with the Wolves. Um, and and nobody else, but like Tony V is a very special person, and very special human being to me. So, let's get this thing started. We

me. So, let's get this thing started. We

have Tony V's resume is basically a guided tour of gaming history. Nintendo,

Amazon, EA. He helped create Twitch Prime before Prime Gaming has even had the phrase. Then they took that DNA into

the phrase. Then they took that DNA into Shrapnau, one of the web 3's first AAA shooters. Tony's edge is uh pattern

shooters. Tony's edge is uh pattern recognition. He's watched attention

recognition. He's watched attention migrate from cartridges to streams to tokens and keeps finding ways to meet players where they are and now in AI. So

we'll touch on that a little bit. And

today he runs Glittercloud Solutions helping web3 studios nail their go to market. And he's building Mako, an AI

market. And he's building Mako, an AI powered marketing platform aiming to give creative strategy uh to its own neural engine. Tony, what is up brother?

neural engine. Tony, what is up brother?

Welcome to Alpha Wolves. How are you doing man?

>> H life is good. Thanks for having me on today, guys. I love guys. Like, there's

today, guys. I love guys. Like, there's

more than one a year, but I I I love the Wolves. I'm excited to be here talking

Wolves. I'm excited to be here talking about what we're building. I uh I have a a strong place in my heart for all you guys, and Ben's one of my best buddies.

>> Yeah. Really? And I I do want to kind of double click into that, man. Like, it's

been just a long journey with you. Uh

some intertwined and some just in parallel. Um, and it's just been

parallel. Um, and it's just been somebody that like Tony to to kind of go off of the the written bio, but it's just somebody that I highly respect and somebody that's been just like a dear friend to me as well, too. Uh, there's

not somebody that's going to take care of his friends and be loyal to his friends and be able to like really understand like and meet where people are at. Uh, other than Tony. Um, and

are at. Uh, other than Tony. Um, and

also just an amazing storyteller uh, and also just somebody that you want to do life with because he is going to be somebody that is just going to go and do really creative things and you know that he's going to not forget about you. And

so Tony, freaking love you, dude. I

can't wait to get started uh with you.

And that's actually where I want to start is actually to kind of go back to your history of everything that's kind of like going on, right? Like you've

touched some of like the biggest web 2 giants, Nintendo, Amazon, EA. Um and so want to kind of go back into that history and then kind of what led you to web 3 and then we can kind of go from there. What lessons learned?

there. What lessons learned?

>> Yeah, for sure. So, my my background, like Payton said, I've been working in video games for 20 years now. I started

at Nintendo way back when the Wii was becoming very popular. Um, it was a great time to join Nintendo because they were coming out of a pretty dark slump with the Gamecube. Uh, but morale was way down and then the Wii came and everyone was a rockstar again. So, it

was just really fun to be there and be there for that explosive growth.

>> Um, I did a bunch of big data stuff there. I onboarded Oracle and some other

there. I onboarded Oracle and some other speech analytics tools. And then I went over to Amazon where I spent the bulk of my career. I was there for 10 years and

my career. I was there for 10 years and uh I did like everything that you can do in video games at Amazon. I sold video games on the retail team. I worked on the app store. I shipped a couple of mobile games for Amazon game studios

that no one played. And then at one point we bought twitch.tv and we created the program Twitch Prime. Uh what was called Prime Gaming and now I think they merged it with with Luna which is their streaming service. But right um yeah we

streaming service. But right um yeah we created that small team and I a lot of fun grew it from zero to 30 40 million customers and pretty significant impact on the the Amazon business as a whole.

>> Um lowered the age of prime from mid50s to 30s or something like that. It was

great.

>> Um and uh I flew into the sun ready to be done working at big companies and I went and kind of bounced around uh startups for a little bit. I led

marketing for uh this company that is like Yelp for weed. It's called uh Leafly. And um that's actually how I got

Leafly. And um that's actually how I got introduced to crypto because uh at the time and I'm I'm pretty sure still uh the federal legislation is such that like you can't actually bank if you're a cannabis company. Like you can't like

cannabis company. Like you can't like put money in a bank and then take it out or have people pay you with with banks.

And so we had like a dude like a former military dude that would like fly around the country with a sack. Yeah. Put cash

in it and bring it back to Seattle. And

that was like not a sustainable way to grow what eventually became a $30 million business. Uh and and so um we

million business. Uh and and so um we started taking crypto because it was just like the the only like literally the only thing that was not sending the guy around with a gun and and a duffel bag.

>> Um and so I got introduced to like just the this whole concept and like >> had to understand that like not all crypto is equal and you know really deeply understand volatility in markets.

Um, which you know coming from from cannabis there there was a lot of that as well because you know unshockingly uh the the semi-legal drug trade is alo also very uh volatile right

>> so I did that for a little while um really got really fell in love with crypto and then uh this guy that I had I had helped with a startup years before

called me and was like hey we just sold $2 million worth of NFTTS from National Geographic and we are we have no idea

what to do with this business. We are,

you know, we're we're not what you would call professionals. Uh, and we want you

call professionals. Uh, and we want you to tell us how to run this business. And

I was like, "All right, well, I don't really want to do that, but if you want to make video games, I will quit my job and start making video games with you guys, >> right?"

>> right?" >> And so, we did that. We uh we I made a little platformer on Salana and we had a little uh 2D metaverse for a little while and they're making um infrastructure tools now. But I did that

for a couple years and then uh had an opportunity to go work at shrapnel.

Yeah, big AAA shooter. Buddy called me up and said, "Hey, I've been been here for a year and they need someone to come in and really own web three."

>> Uh so I did that and within a couple of months I ended up being elevated to the CMO and basically running marketing.

>> That's where we met, brought you on, started hanging out with the wolves. Um

and then um you know, now after my you know, worked travel for two and a half years, ran the token to the billion dollars at one point. Um, and then that, you know, I don't know how many people people are following up through gaming,

but Crap had some lows and challenges and I opted out of some of those and decided to spin up this new business, Glittercloud Solutions. Um, really just

Glittercloud Solutions. Um, really just was born out of uh, referrals and and the good friends and goodwill that I've been able to engender the last few years, but um, just had a really fortunate amount of referrals come in

and been able to to run the small business. And then about six months ago,

business. And then about six months ago, uh, a bunch of buddies and I got together and well, actually, it's really funny. We all know, um, we all know

funny. We all know, um, we all know Charlie and Sam from from Remix.

>> And I actually I wrote a PRD, uh, a product requirements doc, uh, which is like a technical doc that describes a set of features that you might want to build.

>> Um, and I sent it over to Charlie and and Sam, and I was like, "Hey guys, I think I have this idea for a remix that might like be really beneficial." And

sent it over and I love Charlie, love Sam. and they were like, "Hey, we're

Sam. and they were like, "Hey, we're like going in a different direction. Not

not what we want to do." Uh, and I was like, "All right, sweet. But like just to let you guys know, like I'm going to go build this because I I think it's awesome." Um, and so that's what that's

awesome." Um, and so that's what that's what we're doing now. We we made this thing called Macco.ai and uh it's a like all-in-one game development and design solutions. So you can go and uh natural

solutions. So you can go and uh natural language prompt uh art assets in you know 20 different styles, 2D, 3D, yada yada yada. Uh and then uh we will create

yada yada. Uh and then uh we will create a character reference for you. It does a 360 view of the charact like it helps a 360 view of the character.

>> Uh and then that allows you to maintain consistency across animations which is like really challenging with uh with AI art and then you can take those and bake them directly into a game while you're uh while you're uh while you're making it.

>> That's where we are now. That's how we got here, bro.

>> Dude, it is crazy that that journey is like so awesome, though. Like because

you're just really kind of just following like their your curiosity, right? And I I think one thing that I

right? And I I think one thing that I want to kind of like I don't know if you've like thought about this or reflected on it though, uh Tony, is like your ability to kind of like detect on like what's coming next. I I think like

for for you for like Amazon, I think you're not I think you brushed over it, but like you had a lot of like um uh your fingerprints are all all over like the loyalty loops within like Amazon and

like kind of like the streamer specific uh stuff which was at the time isn't that popular, right? And then you you are very early to the the token economy.

Uh and then now you're early right now with like AI. Is you have you ever thought about like your thought process on how you think about it? Is it just being curious and being chronically online? Like what what is it? Can you

online? Like what what is it? Can you

give us some insight on it at all?

>> It's a mix of that for sure. Like

curiosity and and chronic chronic uh in embedding in whatever it is that I'm working on. You know, in this case it's

working on. You know, in this case it's online. I glossed over it because it's

online. I glossed over it because it's not as interesting, but I I ran uh uh retention for a freight company for a while. Like my job was to keep drivers

while. Like my job was to keep drivers driving and not quitting their jobs, which is a real problem in the US with truck drivers. Um and with that, uh like

truck drivers. Um and with that, uh like it's more like method acting, I would say, than um than like seeing the future, like being able to to understand um trends. Like I I like I just get in

um trends. Like I I like I just get in to the the mix with people with the trucks. I like drove in a truck for

trucks. I like drove in a truck for hundreds of hours with people and deeply understood what the problems were and then figured out what value exchange we needed to create to keep create enough value for those people to to stick

around. Similarly, with with

around. Similarly, with with entertainment products, it's even easier because like the the um maybe not easier but more straightforward because the people want to uh to to like

entertainment products, right? They're

generally they're seeking out something enjoyable when they're going to look for one. Um, and so really in in my uh in

one. Um, and so really in in my uh in this case with Macco for example, um I I started using uh Remix, I was I was like I like I said I love Charlie, I love Sam. I was like I want to make my own

Sam. I was like I want to make my own games. Yeah. And so I went and started

games. Yeah. And so I went and started making games with cloud code and cursor and like I just a bunch of these different tools >> and I found like five things that like suck about Vibe coding, right? And one

one of them is making making things move on the screen is really hard with AI.

Chad GBT is like is befuddled by the idea of locomotion, right? Arms swing

and legs go go one after the other. Like

just completely lost on that.

>> Uh and then when you get it right and and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] I got a sprite that is move with its left leg forward instead of its right leg."

Getting that to then >> like repeat from a walking animation to a jump animation is like really hard.

It's like we solved all that. But the

the point is the reason that we solve that is because I spent like six months trying to build something and like being really frustrated with it. I built my own I called an animation buddy in cursor before I brought on a real CTO

and he made the real tool. But like so yeah very much like being in the thing that that you're trying to to be a domain expert on or to to >> ultimately businesses are about

generating value for uh for people involved in the business, people that work there and the people that consume the content or the the product or whatever it is. And so finding out uh where in the value stream you can insert

yourself is like the the key part in my opinion of of creating a successful business.

>> Yeah. And I think that's a really like first principle type of way of thinking.

And I think you apply that to like marketing really well. And I think like one thing that I want to talk about is like some of the lessons that we have learned collectively. this can be more

learned collectively. this can be more of a discussion, but I also just want you to take it mostly because you you have like a very like large authority in this area as well too because you've done go to market campaigns in a lot of different types of companies as well.

Excuse me. And and I I want to kind of also capture lessons here too, Tony. I

know that you're doing something with like Makeo and everything that you're you're doing, but you've also had a lot of history in terms of doing play, right? Uh and and that's that's really

right? Uh and and that's that's really what I want to kind of capture for like I guess the future marketers, ones that are wanting to come up after you and all that stuff. Um,

that stuff. Um, what are some of the common mistakes that you've found in marketing that people like don't fully understand?

Maybe something that you have a unique perspective on and then like maybe specifically too like go to market mistakes from like web 3 studios and projects.

>> Yeah, that's a great question. So, I'll

start at the top with like just marketing stuff and then I'll end with the the web 3 stuff. Um, so the the the general marketing the the thing that I found is that like you can't teach

hustle like you can't teach 65 in basketball, right? You just like it's

basketball, right? You just like it's it's a thing that you're born with.

>> Um, and so uh generally what I find um early marketing leaders uh not even I I make this mistake so marketing leaders in general. Yeah.

in general. Yeah.

>> Um struggle with uh is uh marketing is is inherently a uh charismatic motion, right? It is it is uh the people that

right? It is it is uh the people that are most successful at marketing in my experience even the data driven ones like still deeply understand like human thought and and why people are doing the things they're doing.

>> Um and so um generally the people that are good at that >> understand like you and how you want to be interacted with and treated. So

separating um I really like this person and the ideas that they have even if those ideas are great from this is a person who I can rely on to not only have ideas but execute them and uh go figure stuff out and come to me when

they've broken stuff not five times before they are worried they're going to break something.

>> Um that that is like really really important at at every level of your career. When you are

career. When you are >> not managing a team you want to be that person. You want to be the person that

person. You want to be the person that like comes to your manager and says, "Hey, I tried to send all of our customers an email and I accidentally sent them a picture of our our homepage with a rabbit on it, right?" And then

you're like, "Ah [ __ ] that was that was dumb. Please don't do that again, but we

dumb. Please don't do that again, but we have 500 emails right now, so like the business is going to crash, [laughter] right?" Um, you want you want that,

right?" Um, you want you want that, right? You want people that I always

right? You want people that I always tell people I always told people when I they're working with me at Amazon that I would much rather have >> other uh peers of mine coming to me and saying Rob is a psychopath who I can't

work with because he won't stop telling me to do things or asking me to do things than me having to ask you like hey what did you do this week or like how's it going with that promo right >> and so like just the idea that like you

are an owner of your own your your own career your own outcomes within a specific job >> that is that's so important again And I say like every level of the career to to practice that when you're an individual

contributor and then not only practice it when you're a manager but also to be explicit that that's the culture, right?

Like like you have to say it and sometimes it's uncomfortable, right?

Like I had a I had a conversation with uh with a with a buddy yesterday >> and he was really struggling because he helped someone start a company recently and they uh they he was one of the

founders and he's just like not he doesn't have a lot of domain expertise in the thing that they started the company about. He's just like a guy.

company about. He's just like a guy.

>> Yeah. And he's and he's he's great with the community. He like manages the

the community. He like manages the Discord and stuff, >> but the they're starting to bring on, you know, investors and strong talent, right? And so they have to give some of

right? And so they have to give some of these people, you know, like more of a percentage of the company than this guy has, right? And he's like really

has, right? And he's like really struggling with that. He's like,

>> you know, I I I feel like I've been here from the beginning and I don't understand why this is happening and like I'm, you know, I'm a founder. And I

just had to tell him I had to be like, "Listen, man. Like I get that, but like

"Listen, man. Like I get that, but like at one point, like when you start becoming a real company, the thing that matters isn't like how long you've been around or how loquacious you are. It's

like what results are you bringing to the company?" And it's important that

the company?" And it's important that you do that without being a psychopathic prick because no one will want to work with you if you're delivering results and you're a crazy person. But if you're just super nice and fun to be around,

you've been there a while and you don't deliver results, like that's I would say worse than being a psychopath that delivers results.

And so, you know, there's there's a balance to everything, but that's the biggest pitfall. And and honestly, it's

biggest pitfall. And and honestly, it's more pronounced in web 3 than it is in web two. It absolutely exists in web

web two. It absolutely exists in web two. The layoffs that you're seeing in

two. The layoffs that you're seeing in the game industry right now are a function of COVID and the glut of unqualified people that were hired because of the the the sprint that happened, right? And so, like it happens

happened, right? And so, like it happens in web two, it happens in web three that there's an old trope uh a A players hire A players and B players hire C players.

And that's just like super true. Uh, and

so like being intentional about the people that you bring in to be the core of your team, the first, you know, three, four people is really important.

Payton, I mean, you and I, I'm not gonna I won't name names on this one, but like you and I have talked about like, you know, Glitter Cloud and the way I started it and and some of the personnel issues that we that we had rolling through and a lot of that was just like

I was buddies with a couple people and had a real had a lot of trouble like just holding them accountable to deliverables and, you know, we worked through that and it was a challenge as a first-time new business owner, but yeah.

Um, but it's really really important that you embrace the tough conversations and like have them early and and often.

>> Yeah. Early and often is like extremely important when it comes to people that you also want to stay in your life, right? I think sometimes you can hold on

right? I think sometimes you can hold on to like bitter mint really quickly and then it like the longer you hold it, the more like, you know, just things kind of like build up and then bubble up and then like blow up, right? And and I think that's like really what it comes

down to. I think you've been an

down to. I think you've been an excellent communicator as well with me.

I' I've also worked under your toutelage as well at trapnel. Um, and I think like when it comes down to like go to market or hustle, like I think that's like one of been been the hardest things. And to

your point in web 3, it's it's very difficult to get like a level of professionalism. Uh, I would say and I

professionalism. Uh, I would say and I think like for you it's because maybe you've operated Amazon and some of like this very bureaucratic like companies that it kind of has done. But like for

the newer people, everything that you said I just want to echo because I've worked in the Navy uh as well too.

So like it can get it that's just as more as bureaucratic as you can get. Um

and so there's all these like functional layers, but like you do have to show up on time or like you get like you know there's like repercussions real consequences.

>> Yeah, there's real consequences like that's either like working out or like do staying up or or having like watch and all that stuff and then they have they have for they pretty much own your life. Um, so like I've gotten a lot of

life. Um, so like I've gotten a lot of that beat out of me, but like web three people like just have not gotten that beat out of them because there's like no stakes for them to do it right. Um, and

I think that's like yeah, like you said, very prevalent and like B players hiring C people uh, as well too. So yeah,

really, >> you know, you know what I'll say though that I'm loving about this space is and and the new way of working and like you know, I'll say you people because you're a lot younger than me, but like the the

generation behind me um is it's like the the model of work can be so much I'll say less toxic, but I wish I had a

better word like like uh uh whatever the adjective for thriving would be or the the pronoun for thriving would be like people people you're you're able to really interact with people at a much

more real level and build teams in a decentralized way of people that like share interests but maybe not skill sets. And as long as you find the right

sets. And as long as you find the right people um like there are like I have I have a group like this I hang out with every day that definitely with them right now.

>> Yeah. They're all in a specific chat right now like you can drag Caesar and all.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so they uh you know like we we're I have these guys that you know I've been hanging out with and playing video games with for you know six eight months. But um you know now that we've got you know some

business stuff to do I basically have turned it the the Discord into like Tony's employment agency right like whenever we get a new client >> we farm out video work and reply guy

work and and all kinds of stuff and then um the the model is such that like because I've never worked like this before because I'm effectively bringing

financial opportunity to people that they are excit not just willing but excited to work on a breath of projects beyond just the thing that they're making money on. Right? So, if I have a client and I I bring in something like,

"Hey, I need you to be I need you to run a reply guy for this and I'm going to give you x amount of dollars a month.

>> Um, but I also need you to go like do reply guy for these other accounts that we have as well because it's the same motion." Yeah. They'll like they're

motion." Yeah. They'll like they're like, "Yeah, great. Let me know." And

and I I like to real with them. I'm

like, "Hey, if this is going to take you more than like four hours a day, let me know and we'll just pay you for two clients." Right. Exactly. And we were

clients." Right. Exactly. And we were really transparent in that way. And like

that just didn't that doesn't happen at real at like big businesses, right? You

can't go to your boss and or your boss is never going to come to you and be like, "Hey man, it looks like you're working a lot harder than you should be like, I'm going to give you like a raise right now." Right. Just like there's all

right now." Right. Just like there's all kinds of layers. You got to get approval. Right.

approval. Right.

>> Right. And like I'm finding this method of and again it goes back to what we were talking about before value creation deeply understand what people value.

Like I think that the new model for work uh especially service- based work is going to be completely distributed. You

only live in the same city if by if by chance you're you hire a buddy or whatever. Um, and and all of the work is

whatever. Um, and and all of the work is done round the clock by people who are working whatever hours they care to work as long as they're getting their [ __ ] done. And and you're talking about how

done. And and you're talking about how much that that that work is worth uh in the moment and not what you did for me last week or what you're going to do for me next month and you're you're again back to value exchange. You're

exchanging the value that you're getting and you can do so in a really healthy way because there's not like politics, right? It's like we're all being

right? It's like we're all being transparent. There's no layers, right? I

transparent. There's no layers, right? I

just think it I it's it it you ask about the difference too between big companies and like that's probably the biggest difference that I really appreciate is just like the flexibility and the the transparency.

>> Yeah. It's more bartering than it is like kind of this authority over the other person of like hey >> you know great that is a great way to put it.

>> Yeah. It's just really it comes down to it because I everything that you said like is also normal for us as well too.

is like transparency. Like even like with budgets or any of that stuff, it like everyone kind of knows. It's like

saying the things that have been quiet for like our jobs and the way that we talked about like don't talk about like each other's salaries or any of that specific stuff. It's like wait,

specific stuff. It's like wait, everybody kind of knows each other's salaries. [laughter] Why are we why are

salaries. [laughter] Why are we why are we being so private about all of this stuff and like why don't we actually just all be transparent and saying like hey this is my cut, this is your cut.

Are you cool with it?

>> Yeah, because I need money.

>> And then you negotiate if you're not.

That's the way it works. Well, and like the the the whole concept of like and I I was a hell of a I was a really good manager at not hope no one sees this and tells tells me I grew in their life, but

I think I was a really good manager at Amazon. People told me that I got high

Amazon. People told me that I got high ratings. And what the thing that I found

ratings. And what the thing that I found is that like people want to work with people. No matter what

people. No matter what stage of life you're at, what level of your career you're at, people don't want to work for people. They just don't. and

and like the the structure around uh corly reviews and the way that that progression happens at a company in at least in in the modern tech era I think is really broken and and like very counter to the way that humans are

motivated uh and and has created some really toxic cultures and people um but I think we're breaking out of it because people like like like me and like some of my co-founders who worked at Amazon for 10 years and have seen the crazy

ugly don't want that and are willing to do [ __ ] rap like everyone in GlitterCloud can pull up a spreadsheet right now and see exactly how much we're making and how much everyone else is making. Like how how much clients are

making. Like how how much clients are paying us and how much we're paying everyone is like on a spreadsheet, right?

>> Um and I just think that's important, right? Like because it it goes both

right? Like because it it goes both ways, too. Like some people are like,

ways, too. Like some people are like, "Hey man, I don't get why like I'm not making as much as this guy." You can be like, "Well, that guy's doing all this [ __ ] Like go do all this [ __ ] and and then [laughter] the other person who's doing all that [ __ ] can be like, "Hey man, I think like I'm doing all this [ __ ] and this other

person is like getting almost as much as I am and like I don't see them doing anything." Like it just it creates a a

anything." Like it just it creates a a shared accountability that I don't think was possible before. the way we communicate now with Telegram and and and Slack and [ __ ] but we're there now, I think.

>> Yeah. And I also think that like it's some of the culture that's baked in with like blockchain. I think maybe and this

like blockchain. I think maybe and this is something that's maybe um very unique to us uh for the fact that like I guess when it comes to like blockchain and crypto as well too. It's just like so

transparent, right? And so some of it's

transparent, right? And so some of it's baked into the culture in which that we both operate. I'm very curious to see

both operate. I'm very curious to see like how tech founders are are doing it and like you have more insight than that than me because like a lot of my circle is still within that. It's very hard for me to get to like maybe second degree connections or third degree connections

to see if that is um but anyways I we could talk about that all day. Um I what I want to do is like kind of give you the last like five minutes here Tony to like talk about like where you're going

right you kind of talked a little bit about Mako but I I really want to dive like deeper into that and then also glitter cloud solutions like you've obviously done a lot of that too. So

really wherever you want to take it, I want to get kind of give this to you of like a time in which that maybe I can double click into something that you do say to like kind of further discussion on it. But yeah, Mako, Glittercloud,

on it. But yeah, Mako, Glittercloud, wherever you want to go, I would love to know more about Makeo as well.

>> Appreciate you, brother. Yeah, you know, I I'm doing the thing that I did not think I was going to be doing at 40, but I, you know, I quit my my normal job when when my partner ways were trapped.

No, when I started an agency at 40 years old, it was not what I thought I was going to do.

>> And then you talked about that that's not something you wanted to do. I

remember.

>> Yeah, I was like what I want to do. I

was like I want to take I want to be slowing down and hanging out with my kid. But

kid. But >> yeah, >> um so you know I didn't expect that and I've like been very fortunate. All my

friends and and colleagues in the space have referred me an incredible amount of business that has made this transition very easy.

>> Uh and um the I now am in a position where I can bootstrap this AI company with the revenue from GlitterCloud and that's what we're doing. So

Glittercloud's an agency, a consultancy, whatever. We help people go to market on

whatever. We help people go to market on tokens, video games, entertainment products. We're helping someone launch a

products. We're helping someone launch a DEX right now. Um, and we get, you know, a retainer and some amount of upside for that work. And then I take all that

that work. And then I take all that money I pay out the people that are working on GlitterCloud. And whatever's

left, usually some mid five figures a month, we just dump into Macco, either for makeup, either for um, uh, inference costs, right? The actual running of the

costs, right? The actual running of the AI, >> uh, buying, we haven't we've spent like $800 in ads so far, but like the $800 we spent on ads. Yeah.

>> Um, and, uh, we actually no one's taking a paycheck right now. So at one point that we'll we'll pay a role out of that as well. But my hope is that we start

as well. But my hope is that we start MCO starts making money in the next 30 60 days and we can just start being our own not bootstrapped by Clear Cloud, >> right?

>> Um but yeah, you know, I'd say that the the the transition from being like a service-based business owner to a product based business owner and like I guess >> talk to me about that because both of me and you are going through that right now.

>> Yeah, it's it's really interesting. Like

so what I did I cheated. I like I I run Glittercloud because it's largely like a sales and marketing motion, right? But

like I don't run I started I started Mango with like three guys, right? But I

quickly as soon as I could brought in my buddy Jeremy who's a he was a Amazon engineer for 12 years >> and I said, "Jeremy, I want you to be the CEO of this company." Like I like I got him excited about it. I was like, "Why don't you come in and do some [ __ ]

and rebuilt some stuff and then he re rebuilt everything and he started getting excited." I was like, "What do

getting excited." I was like, "What do you think about taking the company like all of it? Why don't you just be the CEO? We'll give you the most equity. We

CEO? We'll give you the most equity. We

will never dilute you and you can run this thing." and he's like, "Yeah,

this thing." and he's like, "Yeah, absolutely." Smartest thing I've ever

absolutely." Smartest thing I've ever done, dude. This guy, he's he's one of

done, dude. This guy, he's he's one of those guys that is so talented and so opinionated that like all he needs is >> the head to run and the things he does

are incredible. like our our product has

are incredible. like our our product has transformed in the last month from a thing that like I thought was cool and was proud of having created myself and lovable to like a commercial enterprise level product that could be like I

remember when he when he joined he looked at all our codebase and he's like guys I want to preface this by saying that this is really impressive that you guys have done this so far but I have to know >> you you haven't let anyone sign up for this yet right like there's no emails

floating around or anything we're like no and he's like good because none of this is secure and so like the first thing he did was just rebuild the open.

>> Yeah. And we've seen a whole bunch of that stuff like the AI stuff. And I

think that's one of the the things to note about like I think the the vibe coding era is like I think a lot of it gets buzzed and I think a lot of people are going I think it hasn't even hit

like main mainstream yet where like my parents are doing it but like yeah the amount of security that is like it's it's it's very you need to make sure that you're you're very secure in your app because that's that's something that

does not touch just yet. Well, we were just talking about this. Jeremy and I are my CTO CEO CTO and I because like we were uh there's a there's a we have a theory a thesis that I think is gonna pan out that all of these big companies

have been selling this dream that AI is going to replace like all of the engineers or most of the engineers.

>> We don't think that's going to be the case, right? Like it's not

case, right? Like it's not >> Yeah, it's it's a it's a tool like any other tool. it happens to be a really

other tool. it happens to be a really really really good and new tool. Yeah.

But at the end of the day, you're still going to need >> talented software engineers to like >> make sure that the security works or that like the UX is good. Like all that [ __ ] still has to get done. And and I'm

not like only deals and absolutes. I'm

sure at one point the AI will get there.

Who knows when? But right now we're not there. And I don't none of the people

there. And I don't none of the people I've talked to believe that we're going to be there in five 10 years. Like we're

gonna we will be there eventually. But

like full on just like replace everyone at a business is not in the next decade.

I don't think >> I don't I don't think so either. And I

think uh for me whenever you first join in, you're just like it's a whole new world. So you kind of just go to like,

world. So you kind of just go to like, holy crap, this is going to take over everything.

>> Yeah, I can do anything.

>> And then you then you kind of start doing it. It's like, oh shoot, I'm like

doing it. It's like, oh shoot, I'm like very limited in what my like abilities are. And then like you kind of get into

are. And then like you kind of get into this play of like, oh, this is actually a really good augment. But if you give that to like your CTO, gosh, gez, do they go way faster.

>> Absolutely. Talented people are going to accelerate. I think we have like two to

accelerate. I think we have like two to five years to like for those people to build businesses that then get bought by giant corporations. That's my that's

giant corporations. That's my that's what I hope happens. I hope Amazon buys us.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Same exact thing. I was like I hope Discord buys what we're what we're doing. So like you know in terms

we're doing. So like you know in terms of like a lot of a lot of that kind of comes down to and I think you know Mako and and a lot of the things that you guys are are working on as well too is just like really freaking cool. And I

actually do like the agency to bootstrap model. Um and that's kind of something

model. Um and that's kind of something that we've like talked about a lot within like Wolves as well too. just

like do we run like agency stuff to be able to bootstrap after like a runway like you know eventually like goes out and it's just like something that I think to your point about like the the the way that people talk and the way

that people work with each other that is something that will kind of I think also become something or like bootstrap like you do a service based stuff to be able to have a service um or to have a product I think is going to be very

prevalent uh in the next like few years as well too >> and I think I think by the way I'm almost positive I'd have to double check but I'm almost positive we're using your product in in MCO. I know we're using the 100x discord.

>> Oh, really? Nice.

>> But yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm excited to start digging into it.

>> Oh, yeah. Absolutely, dude. It's It's

really good. And I I I'll kind of give you a spill of what's coming next as well too um later on. But yeah, man.

It's it's been a it's been a really good time and I again I like love you to death and I think I just believe in what you're doing and you know, like you said, you can't teach like grind. Uh you

can't teach hustle. Um and you definitely have it and it's somebody that I always respected uh for you that you're always going to be moving. So,

uh, I really really love you, man. And,

uh, can't wait for what's next. And I

definitely need to see check out Mako yet. I know that you said it to me

yet. I know that you said it to me yesterday night. I just have not gotten

yesterday night. I just have not gotten it. I've been like moving all that

it. I've been like moving all that stuff, too. But

stuff, too. But >> Oh, you're a business. I appreciate you though, man. I love you, too. You're

though, man. I love you, too. You're

you're one of my best friends and I really love hanging out with you and getting wish we wish we still work together but >> yeah, same. I think we will. I think

like, you know, one of those things that's like it's just seasonal, right?

And I think that's the one thing about this the beautiful thing about the the model in which that you're kind of talking about it is more bartering. It's

like, hey, like I don't need wheat right now.

>> Um, but whenever I do need wheat, I will come to you and we can trade forever grow the wheat.

>> Yeah, exactly. You know, we'll do some Settlers of Katan type of thing. But

like I I think it's just where a lot of the future's going too and I think a lot of people are going to move to that because yeah, unfortunately there is a lot of things that are getting disrupted with AI. Um, you know, like it's like

with AI. Um, you know, like it's like the Turboax accountant type of thing, you know. Yeah,

you know. Yeah, >> man. Like probably a lot of accountants

>> man. Like probably a lot of accountants like lost, >> you know, maybe you don't need three accountants anymore. You just need two

accountants anymore. You just need two because tax took took 130.

>> It's probably the same thing with AI as well too. So anyways, man, um I want to

well too. So anyways, man, um I want to have you on again uh whenever you guys are are closer to like launch after that CTO says like, "Hey, have you not have you [laughter] like Yeah, it's time. You

know, the CEO says it." But uh anything in closing remarks, where can people find you? Um what is maybe the next

find you? Um what is maybe the next thing that like people can check out uh for for you uh that like you definitely are like, "Hey, like I want people to to see this um and show up for it." So

definitely check out maccoai. Go make

some animations and try to make a game.

Hit us up if you have any questions.

We're hanging out in the Discord 12 hours a day. Uh and u >> yeah, you guys are freaking crazy on the hours. It is freaking

hours. It is freaking >> so fun. And then on the Glitter Cloud side, I will say uh just very very fun.

We're launching a little game called No Mors. It's a web-based shooter where you

Mors. It's a web-based shooter where you control little ceramic gnomes running around a garden killing each other. I'm

watching that with B3. Uh it's no Mors.io. It's u I don't I don't think

Mors.io. It's u I don't I don't think it's playable right now. Now, I think you have to you can still sign up for early access. We pul we put it up and

early access. We pul we put it up and just pulled it down. We had some issues, but okay. We're going to launch in

but okay. We're going to launch in December and we'll have all kinds of fun web three skins. We're doing a wolf skin. We're doing a a penguin skin. And

skin. We're doing a a penguin skin. And

um uh and it's going to be what is it?

Pay to spawn, kill to earn. So, you pay a dollar, pay 50 cents, pay pay a dime, whatever, and you earn that same amount back when you kill someone.

>> Crazy. Crazy. D I I love it. I wanted to uh play it. I think I told you that to you, too. So, really excited about it.

you, too. So, really excited about it.

Um, I need to talk to the B3 guys as well, too, because like I I do like a lot of the things that they're doing.

Um, and then yeah, just to kind of give some validation to Tony is like I just looked up the 100x like specific stats.

3,200 voice uh in the last 30 days.

That's freaking stupid. That's a stupid amount.

>> Yeah, that's a stupid amount. Uh,

definitely you you want that. And for

like a culture and community, um, it's freaking amazing to to see that. So, uh,

like I said, I think 100x is like one of those like communities that is going to be popping off and it you just never know. But like that core to keep

know. But like that core to keep together and to be able to do that is like the most important I think. What

was it? Somebody said something about like all people want to do is like make money online with their internet friends and that's really what it first% you know.

>> Yeah, that is that that I I think that's the future.

>> Yeah, exactly. Uh and so yeah, anyways, dude, I freaking love you. Um I will hit you up whenever either the no more stuff happens, but I really want you whenever you're back for like uh Makeo uh >> when we publish our first game. I'll hit

you up.

>> Please do. Please do. All right, buddy.

I'll see you later, brother. Peace.

>> All right. That is Tony V. Again, he's

uh one of my dearest friends in web 3.

Uh there's just been a lot of times that I've called him and he's called me and just like, you know, sometimes you just need people that are in your stage of life. Um and like we both have kids, you

life. Um and like we both have kids, you know, we have like done we've worked at companies. We understand like the

companies. We understand like the bureaucratic thing like he's worked a whole bunch of creative campaigns. We

kind of share like deal flow and all that stuff. Um, and you just need those

that stuff. Um, and you just need those people in like your life. Uh, and

definitely I'm so so thankful that Tony's in mind. Um, yeah, great energy from Tony and I like I I know that that wasn't part of like um just for everyone's like essay. Me and Shan do a

whole bunch of research and sometimes whenever a conversation starts going like I just throw it out uh which sucks for me and Shassan because we do like hours of research before the show uh and to be able to do that. So always shout

out Shassan uh and everything that we're doing there. But like yeah definitely I

doing there. But like yeah definitely I am whenever he was kind of talking about like the new stage of like where he thinks work will go it's like so true in

my opinion of like service based specific ones and yeah it's just a a really cool um it's a really cool thing in my opinion. So really really excited

about that. Um and I want to kind of

about that. Um and I want to kind of look at something that I haven't found in a while. Um,

and so also guys, like I've been hitting up Lord of Few or Loaf for a while. Um,

so and he has not it it has not shown that he's it's seen. So we might be ending early today. So we'll see. Um,

I'll see if he shows up on time and if we we'll kind of uh figure that out. Um,

but then I I want to get to the XO42 um on that. So really really excited about that. Um, if he does show up.

about that. Um, if he does show up.

Yeah, Tony is the man. Um, you know, yeah, Doug Hype, you're you're also the man, dude. Doug, I need to get you on

man, dude. Doug, I need to get you on here, dude. That'll be freaking fun. Um,

here, dude. That'll be freaking fun. Um,

bring the energy as well. Um, what I want to do is also talk about a thing and a first principle that a lot of people have kind of talked about now,

and I think this like really narrows down like crypto Twitter. And CK said it the best. He's like, there's a

the best. He's like, there's a difference between crypto and crypto Twitter, right? Crypto Twitter is very

Twitter, right? Crypto Twitter is very much like um Dang it.

I don't know what his name is that has like this thing.

Dang. I'm trying to find a person that kind of talks about like the the first principles thinking of like

Yeah, I'm trying to find like a and I forget what his name is, too. He's

like a person that Oh, shoot.

I'll try to find it. I'm trying to like find like uh the first principle that like a lot of the guys have talked about. I think also

about. I think also um what CK was talking about with like status and like that's like super big.

Um come on. Where is it, dude? All right.

come on. Where is it, dude? All right.

And then tomorrow guys, I actually have like a impromptu like live stream with uh the Clanosaurus guys. Um and really talking

Clanosaurus guys. Um and really talking about like all of their things that they're building up. Um

I think it's like Andrew Boseman or something like that. Andrew Bose

X.

Dang, it's not. I'm like really trying to find him, then I want to show it to you guys.

Hopefully everyone's doing good as well too. Sorry, I'm really just trying to

too. Sorry, I'm really just trying to find him because I really want to to get this like clip.

I repost it too so I can just find it online.

Yeah, it's like talking a lot about just like the first principal thinking of what CK was saying which is people either want power or status or

sorry money or status and if you can make them do both then that is like what crypto Twitter is and I think that's really unfortunately for some projects it's very hard for them to swallow. It's

very hard for them to understand that like that is just like what people want.

Um and like they try to do all these consumer apps at least for crypto Twitter I should say. Consumer apps

probably have different types of motivations like especially like gaming.

And I think that is something that like gaming ends up becoming pretty hard though. um

is that you have like this long specific tale for uh development, but in the end all people want to do is like either

make money or gain status uh at least on crypto Twitter and so they focus on the wrong specific ones. Um

I want cake which means building relationships and culture with layers of goodness. Is that really what it means?

goodness. Is that really what it means?

Doug, freaking love you, dude.

Um, I want to see like what people like have when it comes to Oh. Oh. Oh, maybe.

I don't think that's him.

He was like I think I was like at a capital firm or something. Um,

sorry guys. I'm like scrolling just to kind of show you guys like what I'm looking at over here. I'm like

scrolling. I'm trying to find the I'm trying to scroll to find the the quote that I want to speak to which talks about this and it's like a long

time ago.

It's not Andrew Forte though. I love him. Shout out.

though. I love him. Shout out.

I really hope he didn't change his PFP because I'm kind of like looking at the PFP.

And pretty much the quote was like making money online with your internet friends and like that's pretty much

all it is.

No, it's not Andrew. Um Shassan, thank you though. It's like it's talking about

you though. It's like it's talking about that's like a a long time ago, dude.

Like I think it was like back in like 22. So I should probably just like keep

22. So I should probably just like keep on scrolling.

Yeah. Let me try to find this thing work. Also just want to make sure that

work. Also just want to make sure that All right. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

All right. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

So, looks like Loaf is coming soon.

Super excited. I'll find it. I'll find

it. Um, obviously not while he's going, but then I do want to end with it because it's very interesting to me.

Excuse me.

Man, I'm so sad. I need to find it. It'll

find it.

dude. So, like it's gonna bother me all day. So, I am going to find it. I'm not

day. So, I am going to find it. I'm not

ending the stream until I freaking find it.

I've been searching this long, this awkwardly. I need to find it.

awkwardly. I need to find it.

Shan, read my mind. Help me.

All right. All right. All right. Okay,

guys. I think uh Loaf is in here and then we will get to the interview and then we'll wrap this thing up, man.

Thank you guys for bearing with me um on this one for sure. All right, guys. I'll

be right back.

[music] >> [music] >> Drop.

>> [music] >> All right. What is up, guys? We have

Lord of a Few aka Loaf. And Loaf,

actually, is that the reason why is because you're like a parent and stuff like that? You have kids? Like for me, I

like that? You have kids? Like for me, I also am a lord of the few, too. I have

four.

>> You're a lord of a few. You got four.

Oh wow.

>> Yeah, I got four.

>> You've um you got you've beaten me by one.

>> Yeah.

>> But I um No, actually that I think I came up with that username just in the first five minutes of >> Oh, that's awesome.

>> the Realms Discord before I even had kids.

>> It looks good. Yeah. Now, now you are a lord of a few. Like that was the thing that was thinking about it whenever I was looking at your hand. I was like, I wonder if it's like more of like a parent thing because I think that's really cool. I want to be called lord of

really cool. I want to be called lord of a few as well.

>> Are we really lords over them? Are they

the lords over [laughter] us?

>> Right. Yeah, exactly.

>> That is the truth. Yeah, we could have another 30-minute pod on parenting for sure, which maybe we did. Like one of the the guys that I had for Alpha Wolves. We ended up kind of like having

Wolves. We ended up kind of like having discussion and then kind of stayed for five minutes. I asked him a parent

five minutes. I asked him a parent parenting question. We could do that as

parenting question. We could do that as well, too. But I do have a bio for you.

well, too. But I do have a bio for you.

I'll read it off. You can correct me if I'm wrong. I've done like my research on

I'm wrong. I've done like my research on you, but please feel free to correct me if I do not. Um, but okay, without further ado, few builders have lived the onchain dream as full as loaf. He helped

turn a loot derivative called Realms into Eternum, one of the first fully onchain MMOs. Then he asked a bigger

onchain MMOs. Then he asked a bigger question. What if the game played back?

question. What if the game played back?

That curiosity led to dojo, Eliza, and now daydreams, a living framework where AI agents can think, act, and even pay for themselves using the new 402 protocol. while others change chase AI

protocol. while others change chase AI hype. Loaf's busy wiring cognition and

hype. Loaf's busy wiring cognition and commer commerce into digital worlds that outlive their players. Realm world realm lord lord of a few loaf welcome to alpha worlds brother.

>> Jam good to be here to be here.

>> It's been a long time coming.

>> Yeah, it has been. It has been. Uh and

dude, we have so much to talk about.

Like I told you, I told him a little bit offline and the be right back screen guys. I was like dude, I went dove deep.

guys. I was like dude, I went dove deep.

Me and Shassan who's like uh he helps me with research. we were talking about

with research. we were talking about like okay it was really cool to kind of talk about fully onchain games and we're going to talk about that but then dude you were been like really a pioneer on the X42 payment protocol and I was like

dude this is so fascinating so we're going to cover all of it uh today so first like I really want to kind of cover like why you were so passionate on like fully onchain games and also maybe like having a counterpoint because I

think a lot of um >> our my specific sphere has been moving more offchain right of like hey maybe consumers are just like don't really care about onchain games. Why does it matter? Okay, you know what? It didn't

matter? Okay, you know what? It didn't

work. It's a failed experiment. Let's

move on. Oh, so what's the case for you for fully onchain games? Uh, and moving.

>> Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. Sure. I mean I mean I've always I mean I've been a longtime crypto investor and kind of fooled around in the space since like 2014 2015 and you know one of the things um one of the things that originally

drove me to this you know the idea of blockchains and >> is that you know they're they're like their single use case is really is to remove a trusted third party from any equation like that's that's literally the reason why they exist.

>> Yeah. you that's why Bitcoin was created um you know that's why Ethereum was created for more use cases you know now we got like you know a million blockchains doing you know stuff but like and so that's that's kind of like

really been my driving philosophy and it's never really changed it hasn't changed right so like everything that I've ever tried to do >> in this space is like you know I've tried to

use that philosophy and to try to create something net new um and you know um and you know and when it comes to gaming you know gaming uh traditionally has really been, you know, the three three kind of

um party system where you have the, you know, two gamers and then you have a centralized server.

>> And so, you know, onchain gaming is really the vision of like, well, let's just do everything peer-to-peer and you remove that central um server from the equation.

>> Now, that's like so that's that was really the driving factor. And then

like, you know, the origin stories of of realms, you know, all came around loot and loot was the idea of like the it was a fully unchained adventure bag. And,

you know, we all know the story of that.

Um, and that's and then around that time, you know, Dark Forest was happening and um, you know, Dark Forest was like the OG.

>> Oh my god, dude. That's so crazy. Yeah.

Yeah please.

>> And so basically at that time um, when Dark Forest was happening and then, uh, you know, loot dropped and, you know, I was kind of looking around and, um, and that kind of that kind of like spawned the idea of like, well, let's like go a

little further and like try to create, you know, like the loot onchain game, um, for the onchain game, >> right? Um, and then that went down like

>> right? Um, and then that went down like a pathway of, okay, this is pretty [ __ ] hard to do. Um, and we've tried to do it a few times. And then, you know, that kind of led from, you know,

building it on arbitrum initially, >> uh, which didn't really work and sucked.

And then, not Arbitum specifically, I just meant like the game and the EVM was quite difficult to work with for games.

>> Um, uh, so the game sucks. And then anyway, then we kind of um kind of when you when you push down the further further down the game rabbit hole with onchain games, you realize well, you know, when you're

doing everything on chain, you want as much like computational overhead as possible.

>> Um so like you can just like do as much as you as you want. You don't want to be constrained by anything. Um otherwise

you kind of you're limited to very like tight um very simple games.

>> And so that kind of pushed down the path of like ZK and SNET, right? uh you know which which has the you know sucknet kind of has this you know different uh it's got the kio VM which you know

allows for much more pivable computation so you could do much more kind of rich immersive things um and so then you know for the last like you know few years you

know um myself and the cartridge um and the dojo ecosystem and the realms ecosystem and you know everyone around there you know we've been pushing on this like um idea and trying to build

the tooling and and helping um developers and and and games um kind of realized that vision of like building these fully on chain games using the car VM. Um but you know back to like why I

VM. Um but you know back to like why I my my bullcase of like >> onchain games um you know I like I've always trying to like trying to figure

out like a net new business model like I just think it's like like if you're going to make a game like just go and make a game in Unity or Unreal and you know make it as best as you can and then

sell it on Steam. like you don't need to inject kind of like extra engineering or like blockchain stuff like unless you're going to go the whole way um in my opinion.

>> Um and so you know I'm like I I I mean I could go do that.

>> Um but like you know I'm like I'm here to try to create something net new and try to create like net new business models which I think there's like there's a huge case for net new business models building fully on chain games but

you kind of have to go the whole way.

>> You can't just go half ass. Um so so um and you know one of these business models that I'm mega bullish on is that like >> you know um blockchains really are like you know they're the escrow in the

equation right so >> when you um you know you get to you know you get 100 people to play the game right >> and you know and they all put up some stake to play the game and then that stake gets put on the blockchain it's

not getting trusted with any third party or anything um and then whoever wins the game can you know um take out you know their winnings from that um that that contract. track and that's like that

contract. track and that's like that simple kind of like idea is like >> like that's the game changer in like fully on chain games right because that's like that's the thing that couldn't be done before right

>> uh without like a massive like change in like massive company structures and everything and like >> you know um so that's like and that that little like that little feature like you can apply that to so many different

games um and you know you got that and I mean another major thing is it's like it's impossible to cheat or like you know um you know um spoof the server which is another major thing um is like

you know when you when everything is verified on chain then like you can't hack it you can't like spoof the server you can't put it in a cheat mode or anything you know the the game is the smart contract and the smart contract can't be hacked unless you're going to

hack the blockchain but you can't do that >> so you know that it's like it's antiche >> so it's antiche and stakes are like some of my two biggest features um and then you then you got all the other the other things like composability and whatnot

>> um but those two things I think if you apply them to, you know, there's so many potential game games that those two um those two features could apply to.

Right. So, um

>> a quick double double click into that.

Um lo is like the the aspect of like a maybe a lot of people will also say like those features can be an addition to like things that are currently like maybe running offchain and is I guess

what I'm trying to to understand is like do you still think that like the graphical specific like interface and all that stuff can still be used in like you know offchain specific mechanisms?

Uh, and then like the escrow contracts as well as uh because I agree with everything you just said like and those and and I just want to give you um flowers here because I haven't like

really thought about it in that that perspective. Um and it's a really cool

perspective. Um and it's a really cool perspective and my gamer specific cards kind of be like oh that's freaking cool, right? Anti-che and and escrow contracts

right? Anti-che and and escrow contracts of like a a pool of money is really dope. But you could also do that with

dope. But you could also do that with you know you could put that onto like maybe a graphical interface that's offchain.

>> Yeah. Well, I think Yeah. So this

there's a few things here is like you know the the the game itself isn't the kind of the visual as like the visuals that's that's I mean it is the game but it's like that part doesn't need to be on chain

>> that's just like the client that's the interface for the game the actual game >> is is living on the blockchain and anyone can actually create an interface to interface with it because it's you know it's all it's all open so like

obviously as a game developer of onchain games you need to make the client and your client needs to be good but like that isn't nec that's not the game.

That's just how you're interacting with the game, >> right?

>> And so that part doesn't need to be unchained. And and I think it's actually

unchained. And and I think it's actually good that that part, you know, doesn't have to be unchained because then you kind of create this um and this is what's happening with um Loot Survivor and, you know, um which is a fully

unchained rogike, which, you know, has gone through a bunch of iterations over the last three years that kind of spawned out of the the Realms ecosystem.

And it's a um it's kind of a it's a it's a dungeon crawler rogike dungeon fully unchained dungeon crawler. And um you know in the early days you know we built a CLI interface um to interface with it

which was just literally like a couple devs playing with it through a CLI you know in a terminal and then we built the first client and then that client spawned a bunch of other clients >> um and that was that was L Survivor one

and now it's at L Survivor 2 which I suggest everyone go and play it. It's

live now.

>> Um >> and it's just sick and it's you know it's got an amazing client. the client's

fully open source. Um, you know, it's got incredible good tokconomics. Um, how

it all works with everything. Um, but

like, you know, it it's also spawned a bunch of different clients. So, like

develop um players have like forked the main client and made like their own versions of it that are actually better than the original client. And so, you kind of get this like innovation on top of the game itself when you make the

game open because it's on the blockchain, >> right?

>> And so, that's like this like emergent feature um that happens if your game gets traction. Obviously, the game has

gets traction. Obviously, the game has to be good and people want to play it and people want to be encouraged to do it. Um, but there's also in because

it. Um, but there's also in because you're kind of, >> you know, there's like this financialization to the game and like >> you're kind of creating this like

platform for people to actually um build like mini businesses on top because like if you're a developer, you be like, I can make a better client.

>> You got to make a client and then like you can actually get paid for that client.

>> Exactly. Like mods. It's giving the ability to be able to make mods but also be able to >> really, you know, generate revenue off of it, right? Instead of like giving all of the value to the that >> but you could also co into it too that

like, hey, if you fork it, there's a fee to that.

>> That's really cool.

>> Yeah. Exact. Exactly. And that's exactly how it works. It's like if you're every time, you know, whenever someone uses your client, you basically get a fee.

Um, so you know, and you so then when you kind of encourage the free market to build on things like you know, innovation and and like iteration happens faster, right? So like that's and that's also only really possible um uh when you do stuff fully on chain.

Yeah.

>> So, you know, there are these like there these like features that like only exist when you go the full way. And like right if you go the full way, you open yourself up to new business models. And

I think like the the problem with kind of web3 gaming in the last like you know five years is that you know we kind of just got the VC kiss of death >> and like you know um you know teams got funded like massively overfunded and like I don't know honestly don't even

blame teams that have like been massively overunded then like their games failed because it's like >> like you like you're kind of kissing like it's a kiss of death

>> um you know and you get this massive overhead you get this massive um you know you're expected all this all this but then your game falls flat or like you've kind of created a hybrid web two

web three but like no one's attached to it >> and then that's there's like so many cases of that. Um, and uh, [laughter] so yeah, I mean it's just like >> there is a lot of kisses to it. I I

would like add on to that like the kiss of death like for VC stuff is like the valuations kind of got out of control, right? And then everybody needed to be

right? And then everybody needed to be able to build uh, things like how I kind of say it is like it's you know it it was the opposite of Moneyball whenever we at the stage of like where we're trying to do is like hey we should just

get on base which is like hey let's try to make create new business models and iterate on top of that. to your point, you just said 100 people, right? Be able

to like put it into an escro contract.

Whenever like whenever we had like the VC kiss of death, it was like, "Oh, shoot. We need to be like a billion

shoot. We need to be like a billion dollar company because that's what VCs like invest in." And so like we need to go for like millions of people whenever like the tech actually go 100x.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Which like actually the tech is actually really cool to like iterate on and actually make a lot of money for a small amount of people. like

how I've also seen some of like the you know the mechanisms of like smart contracts of like pretty much gating and all that stuff uh for for transparency is like really honestly very innovative

right uh and it's it's >> it's unfortunate that we kind of went that route where we also kind of lost our identity in the process and it also got caught up in the crypto culture as well too crypto I should say NFT culture

um and a lot of that tactics that that worked well with NFTs we kind of seeped into web 3 and then we kind of lost a little bit of our identity uh in that.

So I agree with you. Um you know in terms of >> Yeah. Just just to just to touch on that

>> Yeah. Just just to just to touch on that just uh what you just brought up around um [snorts] um >> you know like it's it's a you know when you make a traditional game you know you go and make a game for a couple years you get a small amount of funding and

then like you go and put it on Steam and like some of them go like ridiculous numbers you know they sell 60 million copies in like you know two weeks and like that's the that's the business model right it's like the the game

publisher Steam model and it works really well. Um, and I think that that,

really well. Um, and I think that that, you know, a lot of the teams that kind of came and build in this space, like they didn't really have a business model. Like it was just like, oh, we're

model. Like it was just like, oh, we're going to like we're going to raise money with a token and then we're going to sell the token, but like >> that's not really a business model or like real tokconomics, you know? So, I

think, you know, a lot of people got tripped up on that. Um, so yeah, it's like a so it's it comes back to the business model of like what you're trying to do >> and I think with fully on chains, it unlocks new types of business models and

which you have to lean into. Um, and I think we're starting to see them emerge.

You know, Loot Survivor is a solid case of that. Um, you know, Eternum, which is

of that. Um, you know, Eternum, which is like this, um, MMO, which we'll talk about, is like another case. Um, but and and you know, the sky's open for all these ideas, right?

>> Um, but like you have to push on the right the right the right paths.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, yeah, >> you have to kind of know them too, right? Like, and I think that's one of

right? Like, and I think that's one of the issues with people that have kind of gotten funded. And I agree with you,

gotten funded. And I agree with you, too. I don't actually blame them. And to

too. I don't actually blame them. And to

be honest, Lo, I've worked for them, right? Like I've worked for those people

right? Like I've worked for those people because I thought the pedigree was like top-notch, but like they did not actually understand the technology and what was capable of like doing it, right? Blockchain was more of a buzz

right? Blockchain was more of a buzz word, not like a philosophy that they wanted to build around. And I think, you know, when it comes comes down to it, like what you know, if if you're kind of talking to somebody and you said like,

you know, I guess your pitch for like, hey, like if you are this type of builder or like want to push like on the edge of technology or whatever it is, like this is what is available to you to

do. I I want to reward that because I

do. I I want to reward that because I didn't do a very good job at wording it, but like you know, a lot of those people didn't like really believe in like a philosophy of like what blockchain could actually bring. And you already kind of

actually bring. And you already kind of touched on it with like the different business models, but is there anything else like maybe from somebody that like is a builder and is like, "Hey, should I go the traditional route or should I go like the blockchain route?"

>> Yeah.

>> What What is your What is your case for them?

>> Yeah. I mean, like, if you have a great game that like, you know, um I don't know, maybe it's maybe it's like a rogike game and like most of the mechanics are kind of like with some um

like you've got some incredible graphics and aesthetics and all this stuff and like you know it's running well or like you have an idea for that then like >> if you chuck blockchain in the mix, you're just like overengineering. Like

there's probably you you probably can create an incredible business just with that game and just sell it on Steam, right? And like you don't need to chuck

right? And like you don't need to chuck the complexity and all the nonsense that comes along with it.

>> You just just go and do that. But like

if you want to push on like uh you know an emergent type of business model where like there's interesting tokenomics where owners where gamers can actually like truly own part of like the economy

but like in a real way.

>> Um and then like and and like you have an interesting idea for a game that's like like the entire game can actually fit on the blockchain. So that's

actually the constraint, right? So you

can't put like FPS and stuff on ch but like you can put like you know speed chess and type games you know anything that comes along with that or forex and you know or like um dungeon crawlers and stuff right >> um and so like there is a limitation and

so you need to understand a limitation of what you're trying to do before you start building >> and like if you don't want that limitation then just go build a regular game but if you want to push on the limitation and like explore a new business model and I think there's a massive opportunity >> then like push on um fully on chain

games.

>> Yeah. Um, yeah. So,

>> I I I agree. It's It's so cool because like I don't know. It's,

>> you know, if I'm being honest with you, Lo, it's like something I've kind of had this wonder um, you know, back in 2021 2022 of like a lot of the things that you're kind of saying and you're kind of like rejiggering it out of me again. Uh,

because like I kind of like, you know, swallowed the Kool-Aid in a lot of ways, right? Like of like, hey, like maybe you

right? Like of like, hey, like maybe you could just like have like, you know, crypto light or blockchain light, right?

And like have all of these things like and I have seen like some successes in it. like there's FIFA rivals and all

it. like there's FIFA rivals and all that stuff, but that abstracted completely away, but you're just generating fees and you're just using it as like >> a way to be able to do trade, which is still like a a cool piece of technology,

but what you're saying is like now like be a freaking maverick and be badass and like why don't you go push the [laughter] boundaries, you know what I mean?

>> Push the boundaries because it's going to be like it's engineering it's like it's it's a hard engineering problem, right? It's like I wouldn't it's not an

right? It's like I wouldn't it's not an easy like it's not like >> um it's a different set of challenges like building any game is going to be hard right >> but like building fully on chain game onchain games is like you know it's a

different it's a different type of hard it's still both s both pathways are going to be hard >> but like it's just a it's a new pathway um >> uh that's that's really exciting to explore um because there is

>> you know I think it's you know there was a um you know looking back you know there was like a crazy hype cycle around all things gaming right?

>> Um, you know, onchain games kind of went through a trough, >> right?

>> Um, of disillusionment and we kind of on the, you know, we're on the plateau of enlightenment right now.

>> Um, [laughter] and I think, you know, it's just taken a while to >> for the technology to kind of catch up.

And like, to be honest, the technology wasn't even there to like make these really deep good immersive experiences.

And now, you know, now it's evolving at a rapid pace. Um, you know, you can do more stuff on chain, it's faster. Um,

you know, there's like kind of more infrastructure around it with like dojo and cartridge to make kind of like the UX like smooth and stuff. So, you know, the tech's there now. Now's the time to, you know, um, build it. And there's

actually a hackathon coming up in a couple days.

>> Oh, yeah. Tell me about that.

>> Yeah, please tell me about that before we move. I do want to talk about what

we move. I do want to talk about what what you're kind of currently doing right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just to wrap uh there's actually there's a dojo game jam in a couple days. Um, so go and check out the Oh dojo Twitter handle. um and

you'll find details and then just register and um try to build something.

And my my advice for builders would be don't try to build an FPS or try to build something really complex, right?

>> Go and look at like game go and look at game theory on Wikipedia and then try to like smash two game theory ideas together into a game.

>> Cool.

>> And you can actually do that pretty quickly and come up with something that's like um interesting. So yeah.

>> Very cool. Very cool. That's awesome. Uh

any other like Okay, before we move on because I want to talk about the 402 stuff. um like the well I also want to

stuff. um like the well I also want to talk about some other stuff too but but the um the one thing that you you have talked about is like FPS and stuff like that. Is there any genres that like fit

that. Is there any genres that like fit like as you've seen right now fit really well in terms of onchain games but also ones that completely don't work well or like hey that's that's a stretch like I know FPS is a stretch and all that stuff but like is there anything that work

really well and like what really doesn't?

Uh, I mean, I think that kind of the strategy games uh work really well, right?

>> So, you know, like civil like 4x civilization style games because it's kind of like it's semi it's like turnbased but you do it's kind of like a real-time turnbased and so it's kind of like speed chess like you take the idea

of speed chess and just like turn that into like a billion different strategy games. So, it's like I think that works

games. So, it's like I think that works really well.

>> Um, as it's like it has a lot of depth and like a lot of longevity. So, um,

which I which is what I really like. So,

it's a lot of lot of replayability in a meta evolves and stuff.

>> Um, and then there's like um rogue likes which I think work really well um >> uh as well.

>> Um so those are the two kind of big categories. Um but I mean anything it's

categories. Um but I mean anything it's just the only constraint is like you can't >> you know you're not going to get sub 100 millisecond response times and like the game can't be relying on that response time which is like it is in FPS. It's

like you just get screwed if you got ping.

>> Yeah. in FPS whereas like you know the ping is going to be a second or two seconds so like you have to build any game that you know doesn't that doesn't affect the gameplay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool.

Okay. Um okay. through all of this journey, like you kind of went from like Realms Dojo cartridge, but like one thing that like really stuck out to me was like the the leap from like um the the cartridge and like onchain games and

and you're still there obviously you're very involved as you said like there's a game jam coming up, but it's also like the AI uh type of integration with it, right? So like um one of the things I

right? So like um one of the things I was reading about you was that like there was like deterministic not deterministic uh it was the opposite of deterministic like you attached like different types of AI like agents inside

of like onchain games and NPCs that like can actually have like consciousness and also now with 402 payment protocol can like spend like dude that that was like I was freaking out like what is this

like can you like give me like a little bit more of like a crash course uh because for a smooth brain like me?

>> Yeah.

But uh um uh so yeah, so I mean I've been fooling around with with AI for a long time. Um ever since like 2D3 came

long time. Um ever since like 2D3 came out. Yeah. Um was really kind of the

out. Yeah. Um was really kind of the inception of like you know when things started to get serious right >> in the air. That was like that was I mean that was only like two and a half years ago. Two three years ago.

years ago. Two three years ago.

[laughter] Crazy absolutely crazy >> times in the last three years like everything has been flipped upside down.

The next five years going to be another craziness but anyway that's a whole other other hour discussion. Yeah. But

um >> which I want to put on >> Yeah. just specifically in like gaming.

>> Yeah. just specifically in like gaming.

Um so I was like pushed down a path of like um I tried to make agents actually like three years ago to play games and that was like failed because the models weren't good enough, >> right?

>> Um like the the way to design agents wasn't quite there and the context window which is like how much kind of you know um short-term kind of consciousness you can give the agent >> in a sense just it wasn't big enough. So

like it just made terri just nothing was there. Anyway, so I think there there

there. Anyway, so I think there there was a line that was crossed about 18 months ago um I think GP4 um with like kind of like a more robust frameworks and bigger context windows where like it

started to become possible for agents to do slightly more things um than what they could. And so that kind of led me

they could. And so that kind of led me down a path of um trying to do that uh which led me down a path of like I was one of the kind of the early big contributors of Eliza. Um and um and

then off the back of that I thought um I tried to kind of push in a slightly different direction where um I tried to design a framework called Daydreams which was focused on like kind of long

context horizon agents. So like agents that could do complex tasks over long periods of time.

>> Wow.

>> Um and that's like quite a difficult challenge and like still no one has really nailed that's like still the frontier of like agent design. Um and I can come back to why. Um

>> please do.

Yeah, that was like and so then that kind of led to kind of pushing on that direction for a while and we actually in March we put Daydreams Agents inside of Aternum uh which is this big I haven't really talked about it much but it's

this big forex um strategy game. It's

kind of like a real time civilization.

>> Yeah, it was actually why I reached out to you. I thought it was really cool on

to you. I thought it was really cool on X and then I like that was it but again I ran through all of your history. I was

like dude this guy's freaking badass.

>> Well, we'll we'll we'll touch on that in a second as well. Um but so I so within within Eternum which is like you know it's kind of like imagine like a big hex world um and it's like civilization but

it's real time and you kind of have um stamina and you build up these um these places called realms and the realms generate resources. So it's kind of a

generate resources. So it's kind of a resource management. You have to trade

resource management. You have to trade between them and then you build armies and you try to conquest the map and you try to hold these big buildings called hyperructures which give you victory points. Um, and it gets like absolutely

points. Um, and it gets like absolutely crazy because it can scale to like in theory we've designed it so it can scale to like a thousand people at once. So

you can have this like thousand person battle royale and like you can put you can put whatever like stake you want on it. So like you can create you'll be

it. So like you can create you'll be able to create a custom game where you be like >> okay it's a $100 buy in um you know and win it takes all and it's just like 100 this thousand person just battle royale for the next two hours.

>> Yeah.

>> It' be crazy. Um and so >> um and so when that that's that's actually the current iteration back in March. Yeah,

March. Yeah, >> it was a bit longer. We actually the game actually went for two weeks. Um, so

I mean that's another story in game iteration. But the one back in March, we

iteration. But the one back in March, we actually decided to put Daydreams agents inside of it. And um uh and and and when we did that because like when you put like nonhuman actors inside of a game,

it like >> it like adds to like the like the entropy of the game. So like adds more like all this nondeterministic energy into the game.

>> Um and so the game can like evolve in in ways that like the developers don't even know what's going to go on.

>> Yeah. more more battle of a more like in terms of like a rogue like it's like it changes you know the different types of mechanisms in which that you can do.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And like and it's also unpredictable like it's not determined like and even as a developer you don't know what's going to happen because like LLMs can be unpredictable. Yeah.

>> And so like maybe an LLM goes rogue and just starts killing everyone. Um or like you know maybe it just doesn't it's passive and just like you know just dies. I don't know. like it's like this

dies. I don't know. like it's like this you don't know what's going to happen which is why it's interesting to kind of put them in games because like you kind of want to put them in games because it makes the game way more interesting right >> and so um that was that that was and

that was a good experiment we had about a thousand in there um and they you could kind of like talk with them and kind of like collude with them to tell them to attack another person um if you kind of convince them and so that was

like an early version of datagrams and like it worked um I mean there's a lot of improvement to do to be honest and like I think >> I mean in terms just coming back to AI specifically like like the way that you

design agents for like that type of task has changed in the last like 3 months even like 9 months ago what we did was like totally obsolete. Um so we're going to redo we're going to we're going to do the whole thing. We're going to like do

a new iteration of it.

>> Anything that you can like like other than like maybe your learnings like is there anything you could like transfer over or is it >> Oh yeah. Yeah. There's a lot I mean everything's learnings so like you know it's all iteration and um um but

[snorts and clears throat] yeah I think it's it's it's pretty um it's pretty cool. So anyway, so that was like that

cool. So anyway, so that was like that was kind of the um that was kind of the early versions of of Daydreams, right?

Pushing on this like long pond and one of the one of the kind of the use cases that we're pushing on is like you know like um the financial agents and like agents that could do task and stuff.

>> Um and then X42 appeared like in uh March pretty much March or April. Um I

think it was maybe me. Um, but then that was kind of like what X42 is and everyone obviously has just discovered what X42 is, but like um like X42 is actually the simplest crypto like kind

of thing that's ever come out like cuz it started a blockchain um all it is is like so whenever you send a message um on the internet so like where you're like we're speaking right now or you

send something on Discord or Telegram or something or you you click a website everything is done through HTTP which is like the internet protocol and within HTTP P you can like send um these things called headers and headers are like can

be like random bits of information and then the server can interpret the header um and that's a little bit of information and so what X42 does is that it basically just sends like a signed

payment request >> um signed payment authorization in the HTTP header. So like everything on the

HTTP header. So like everything on the planet right now is already connected to HTTP. Like anything that's on the

HTTP. Like anything that's on the internet has HTTP connected. So like now now all it takes to kind of incorporate expert 2 into like your product is a couple lines of code sick

>> and um and and someone and then obviously the the the seller has to sign a message. So they have to sign like a

a message. So they have to sign like a you know they can sign a Salana message, a stacket message, an EVM message or whatever whatever blockchain you want.

And that message basically says I authorize this service that's going to be consuming it on this on the kind of server side to um kind of accept that payment, right? Um, and so like it's

payment, right? Um, and so like it's like this uh micro payment um promise where you know you can sell uh API requests per like a cent and it's totally gasless because like um it's

it's just stable coins or any token you want.

>> Um but there's there's actually there is a one um other kind of um party in the equation called the facilitator which actually settles the transaction. Okay.

>> And so the the the buyer and the seller don't need any gas but the facilitator needs gas to settle it.

>> And so um it's kind of like this three kind of party system. Yeah. Um but I I that's that's like going to evolve into like more of a decentralized way I think. So there's going to be like lots

think. So there's going to be like lots of facilitators around that like serve different purposes um that are going to be like highly um uh you know highly optimized for specific areas and

whatnot. Um so that's but that simple

whatnot. Um so that's but that simple like idea of just like sending payments over HTTP basically unlocks like payments for every part of the economy like not just crypto into the real world

um like everywhere.

>> Yeah. Um, so like one of the actually one of the one of the, you know, um, the like one of the things that I keep coming back to and I keep talking about is like um, which I'm not sure I mean anybody that's tried to like run a business, you know, with a payment

processor understand. Yeah.

processor understand. Yeah.

>> Um, but like you know, you get charged, you know, 1 to 3%. You know, on Stripe, Shopify, I mean Shopify charge bit more because they got other services, right?

>> Um, and then if you go to like a coffee shop and you buy 10 bucks, you know, you buy a coffee and you cross on them or whatever, like that merchant's paying three 3% of that, right? So like if you extrapolate that over a whole year >> a lot, >> you know, they're paying they're paying 3% of their entire revenue to the bank,

right?

>> And that could be 30K and then their entire net profit might be 100K, right?

>> So they're paying 30% of their entire net profit straight to the bank. And so

like one of the use cases that I see with X42 is like basically replacing all these payment rails with these with this um type of system and which I think is is exactly what's going to happen. And

so like the that's when A6Z came out with that $30 trillion number. Like

that's what they were kind of implying is like this isn't just for the internet. This is like like the entire

internet. This is like like the entire economy is going to kind of kind of be pushed down this this type of payment rail. And it might not be exactly what

rail. And it might not be exactly what X42 is, but it's the idea of sending payment like signed payments over HTTP um is the unlock here. Um I mean even Stripe are coming up with their own version of X42,

>> right?

>> Stripe is very brilliant. I think like out of everybody, you know, they they kind of Yeah, they did privy as well too. Like they're

too. Like they're >> they're know exactly what's coming. They

know exactly what's coming and they're trying to own a p piece of it. So they

got their own blockchain. They're going

to have their own competing they're going to have their own competing standard. Um but I you know just

standard. Um but I you know just touching on like standards and agents and stuff. Yeah.

and stuff. Yeah.

>> Is like and and like you know crypto wallets and all this like kind of UX that we kind of have built like agents don't give a [ __ ] about any of that.

They just want they and they they don't they don't care and they can just get whatever they want when they want because like they don't care about a user interface or like a user experience. They just want data. They

experience. They just want data. They

see the data. They can use the data. And

so like they'll have wallets everywhere.

They'll be able to, you know, pay with any type of payment protocol u that they want. You know, they're not confined to

want. You know, they're not confined to anything. And so um all that all that

anything. And so um all that all that complexity around like blockchains and stuff and stuff is totally abstract way in kind of an agentic world.

>> So um yeah >> it's crazy dude I am such a a smooth brain on this like I'm so thankful that like you kind of came on and also thank you for also like >> uh bring it down to like uh you're

obviously very brilliant because like you're breaking it down to even uh my understanding. I would say that like you

understanding. I would say that like you know I think the one thing that like I guess is scary for me is like you know the uh agent world of like do I have like do I give them like limits on like what they can spend or whatever like

let's just say I own like an agent right and then like >> like they get [laughter] they get like convinced or something or like hey like you did a task that like I did not want

you know then it's just like got kind of gone. What does that kind of like look

gone. What does that kind of like look like for for that? Right. Well, that's

that's what I was saying about how most agents are kind of [ __ ] right now because they are, [laughter] you know, they're like like there's still so many like >> right >> challenges that we face in in terms of like designing high quality agents that

don't just fall flat. I mean,

>> and um and I mean that's that's going to come down to like agent design.

>> Yeah.

>> More than anything. and like how they interpret kind of the data like whether it's an X42 resource or whether it's like interacting with GitHub or Telegram or whatever like you need to give the

agents the tools at the right time in their kind of cycle right >> um and then it's like then all that kind of task is pushed over to the large language model >> and then a large language model needs to

interpret properly and so large language models are still like kind of fall flat sometimes I mean GP5 is like insanely good >> and like it's the next to you know it's the next iteration of LM. Same with like I mean it's it's the best now.

>> Um but Google's going to come out with Gemini 3, you know, it's going to it might change the game again. Who knows?

Like it might like be another step up on GBD5 and then we're like okay now we can build these agent systems that do like crazy [ __ ] Like it's so like we're >> we're we're clo like we're on the cusp of like

>> um and this isn't like Skynet Skynet's not even close to being here, but like just like massive productivity unlocks from like 99% of AGI is here. you know,

it's basically here now.

>> Yeah.

>> It's just like you got to you got to like >> if you know like the the future is going to be dominated by people that know how to wield like armies of agents to do their biddings >> like um like and it's whether it's a coding agent or whether it's like a research agent and you just have a fleet

of them.

>> Um and it's like one of the one of the um >> the things that we're building with Adrians is is basically that like management platform that allows you to like track um and like trace like the profitability of each one of your

agents. So like you can see what

agents. So like you can see what resources they pulled with X42 and you can see how much money they made from X42. And so you know agents you can

X42. And so you know agents you can think of agents as kind of like the new app.

>> Um and the the web is like the Apple app store.

>> That's a good way of put it. Yep. I

never thought about it that way until you brought it up.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> In terms of X42 and then I do also have a parenting question for you as well because you're you're definitely in all of this as well with me. But in terms of X42, like does it just have to be like

agents? I maybe I'm just like also Um,

agents? I maybe I'm just like also Um, yeah, that's like that's what I was catching because like I thought X42 like again this is just me >> just reading uh things on crypto Twitter. So not actually digging deep.

Twitter. So not actually digging deep.

Um, so like Twitter >> Yeah, exactly. Like I'm I am guilty. I'm

like the 99% of everybody else that makes this place the worst place on earth. But in terms of the the the X42

earth. But in terms of the the the X42 like uh payment protocol like you're saying that this could also disrupt like the you know the 30 trillion number from A16Z like and you're saying that a sign like a a signed transaction like from

like me like I'm sending it over to them and then it pretty much bypasses a lot of the complications that >> really make the charge of the 1 to 3% fee possible. Am I reading that back

fee possible. Am I reading that back right to you or um >> um yeah I mean it's not just for agents.

It's for literally any payments. Yeah,

you're right. It's like it's not just it's not just agents. It's like agents, >> you know, I I think, you know, it's um >> it's it's basically any any any value transfer um could be done through this

and it's probably going to be done on a lot of different blockchains. Um but

like the it's not going to matter. Um

and so like all the throughput that we've created with L2s and >> everything is going to get consumed by this I reckon. Um because it's just just because like >> you know it's just like whenever the technology happens like you need uptake

in adoption and like your uptake in adoption is like kind of a measure of like how successful it's probably going to be >> and like the reason why X42 kind of has had massive uptake quickly

>> is because of its simplicity of like >> you can just like if you have an API service that's selling something right now >> outside of AI outside of anything and you just have like some valuable bit of data you can you know you you'd be able

to put on X42 rails in a and then serve it up to people.

>> So like that's how quickly you can adopt it. And so and that that simple adoption

it. And so and that that simple adoption speed is why it's kind of gone bananas.

I mean Cloudflare has adopted it. You

know, Stripe, Shopify, you know, everyone's going to adopt this rapidly.

I mean AWS is probably going to put um I mean I've been banging the drum about this, but like all AWS resources, all web resources, like it's all going to come and be paid paid paidable by um

>> by explor. So um this is >> Yeah. And then agents are just like the

>> Yeah. And then agents are just like the other like the on top of that because like we'll be having agents to do things for us, >> right?

>> Then that's where the agent commerce comes in because like you know agents need to be able to pay for stuff without creating an account which is like >> you know which is what X42 enables because like your agent can just like go

find a service is coming from is it enables that but I did not know the underlying like you know adoption curve that kind of is is the reason why it is and so thank you for enlightening me on

that. Um, do you have do you have room

that. Um, do you have do you have room for one more question? I know we're at time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No.

>> Okay. I do have one more question. It's

about parenting because it seems like you're a very brilliant individual. Also

seems like you you care for your kids a lot. Um, just by the way that you you're

lot. Um, just by the way that you you're talking is like >> how do you raise like kids in like this era, right? Like you said like GPT3 was

era, right? Like you said like GPT3 was like only two and a half years ago. One

of the things that I'm like uh as a parent and I'm talking to my kids is like the feeling of like what are the things that I need to instill into them, right? Like you know we all got the

right? Like you know we all got the thing of like hey you're not going to have a calculator in your pocket. It's

like yeah you're right teacher. Now I

have a supercomput in my pocket, right?

Like there's all of these things that you know I think my my like flags are going up as a parent of like how do I actually >> guide my kids in this new era uh that's

coming. Um have you ever thought about

coming. Um have you ever thought about that and you know >> Oh yeah. I mean that's that's the uh that's the question of our age to be honest >> is um you know how do we um you know

yeah in I mean like like I think AI is going to like reduce the the marginal cost of all goods um I remember reading a book like in 2012 around like it's called a zero marginal cost society

>> u basically like predicts kind of what the impact of what AI will do >> um I don't know around that time anyway um but like you could think of like and and I think this is this is important

for the is like when like the cost of goods and like the cost of like things and doing things is basically zero. Well

then what then what happens to the economy?

>> Um and and like I don't think anyone has really answered that question concisely.

Um and you know there's things like universal basic income that comes into the question and stuff but like that's I think that's kind of halfbaked. Um and

so then the question becomes like well if you don't have to work how do you get fulfillment? And

fulfillment? And >> and like I think that's a you know and personally like what I do is like a lot of my free time you know I'm like I read a lot of history. I um

>> um you know I love I love and it's like history is like such a deep subject um you know just like studying like individual from the past and it's like there's so much to learn from doing that that actually teach you about the future right

>> um if you push on that. And so I think that like, you know, funnily enough, like I think that humans should go back to like studying more arts and history and stuff and sciences um rather than pushing down like um like financial

avenues because everyone's kind of in this rat race being like oh I'm going to get [ __ ] if I don't like you know make make enough money for my family which is the truth right and so like it's an econom is an economic problem where like

we're kind of pushed down this pathway.

Um but like you know like the you know societ like um what we've built humans have built is like incredible and like we've done so many amazing things terrible things in the past. Yeah. But

like everybody needs to understand this and like I think if everybody understands this and then also like um you know understands uh the universe through science and physics and stuff then like it'll help us like build

further into the future um past this like post kind of like um you know um kind of capitalist phase um like I'm talking kind of like you know I don't know when this is going to happen but

like if we push down the path where like AI does kind of drop the marginal cost of things to basically to zero then like there'll be way more um kind efficiency.

They'll be made way more things, you know, will solve way more hard problems, but like there's going to be less and less for humans to do.

>> Um, >> and so this idea of jobs, job jobs, is just kind of like, you know, redundant.

And so we have to fill that equation.

And our kids, I'm assuming your kids are probably the same age as mine.

>> Yeah.

>> Like that they're going to have like it's going to be hard that that's probably when they're going to hit their kind of adulthood, >> I suspect in like, you know, 18 years or so.

>> Exactly.

>> And like um and so and that's like so far from now. So, I think that the most important thing that I'm going to teach my kids is like just teach them about the, you know, the universe like or the

history of humans, um, civilization, um, and philosophy and all this stuff and just give them a broad knowledge of it all right?

>> And I think if you, if you have that knowledge, then you're fine.

>> Um, >> and you also have to understand economics and like economics comes into that. It's a big big equation, right,

that. It's a big big equation, right, >> to all of that. But like I think if you if you instill that into them, then everyone's going to be then they're going to be fine.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so yeah.

It's a it's a good point as well too.

It's it's one of my favorite questions to ask to parents because I know all of us think about it especially in like this specific [clears throat] sector is like dude I see what's coming and I >> am wrestling with what what I want to do

from a parenting perspective or even from like you know kids that we like want to mentor or anything like that.

It's like, yeah, to be honest, I I'm very much in the the camp of like what you're saying is like, you know, I used to laugh at Gen Eds and I'm just like, oh shoot. Like that's actually probably

oh shoot. Like that's actually probably >> one of the the major things that kind of keeps in like history and uh different types of things and curiosity, like keeping curious and >> Exactly. It's about being curious about

>> Exactly. It's about being curious about anything. And I think that's the most

anything. And I think that's the most important that's the most important thing that I think any parent can do to instill into something to a kid is just like never lose that curiosity around a new subject because like

>> like we we also like we have we've you know we've discovered 1% of the universe probably like you know like the understanding of it you know there's so many things we're missing in physics you know there's so many things we're missing in science and like you know in

in bi biology and stuff and like I think we need we need the entire collective human brain power like seven billion people harnessing like AI and just pushing on the hardest problems. Yeah.

>> Um and like it's like, you know, sounds like science fiction, but like then pushing out into like, you know, into space. Yeah. Like that's where we're

space. Yeah. Like that's where we're that's where we're destined, you know, like we need to do it, you know, and like and we're on the cusp of it. We

just got to solve the energy problem. We

got to solve like the social problem of AI.

>> Um and like they're big problems that I think it's going to be messy, >> but I don't know. We'll probably get there.

>> Yeah, dude. Oh, dude, this conversation was so good, man. I really do appreciate uh the time that you gave me. Um and

also just you know it's the first time like for people that to to know as well too. It's the first time that me and

too. It's the first time that me and Loaf were talking.

>> Yeah, it's the first time we chatted and uh it obviously the connections and the fire was there. Uh it was just really really pleasant and also just thank you for for being humble enough and also like you know not degrading me in terms

of like asking the questions and like the the general surface questions and so I would love to have a round two uh with you on a lot of these things as you do it. And maybe we can time it with

it. And maybe we can time it with something that you're you're launching with Daydreams and stuff too so you have more of a more of an option. But where

can people find you? Where can people like uh partner with you and and be a part of the road path that you're going on?

>> The road path. I like that. Um uh just find just DM me on um Twitter or Telegram or Discord. I mean the handles across the same across all of them. It's

a lot of fear. So um

>> nice.

>> Yeah. Um but no, I I really appreciate it's been great to chat, man.

>> Yeah, it was great to chat. Well, thank

you, love, and I appreciate you, buddy.

And well, I'll I'll hit you up on on DMs a little bit later as well, too, to thank you. All right, man.

thank you. All right, man.

>> Thanks, man.

>> Have a good one.

>> Catch you later. Bye bye.

>> All right, guys. That was uh Lord of the Few. And dude, what a banger, dude. I I

Few. And dude, what a banger, dude. I I

don't know who else is left here, but like that opened up my eyes. Like I

think this is what the show has like really done for me. And it's been something that like I've been, you know, dealing with for the last like probably year and

a half to two years. I was kind of stuck in like being in a way like just solely focused on

like like web 3 gaming, you know, and I think a lot of my friends were like kind of like kind of saying like Payton like you know you used to be different um you know you used to like you know think

about things and and write about things and and do a whole bunch of things. And

I think for me it's just like this kind of new age of like kind of reclaiming a lot of my curiosity. I think what ended up happening was that I was very curious

about like web 3 or crypto, right? So I

come in and then I get all tossed around with well so just some lore about me. So

history wise like I went into learning about blockchain as a technology. So I

was a very anti-blockchain person at first and so I used to watch Dave Leon investing. He used to interview

investing. He used to interview everybody that I respect now from a person like content creator perspective.

From there going into the space myself, blockchain really thinking about the different sense of like you know settlements and different types of blocks and like being

very fascinated with that specific knowledge and then smart contracts was something that I was like was like oh this is really cool. Then I got into NFTTS and then I kind of got into this like NFTs web3 gaming sector in which

that like I was very like engulfed into greed. um if I if I'm being like really honest and that was like pretty much overtook a lot of it

and like greed not in a bad way but like we all are gonna make it right like or like we're I'm trying to do as little work as possible to make as much money as possible and then like if I invest

into a meme token that's like where I will like you know eventually do and you kind of get into this specific thing and like to be honest it's like it's very hard to even think of like not doing that because like that's like a lot of

my friend groups and all that stuff. But

like, you know, even like wolves are just such curious people. That's like

the one thing that I like love about wolves is that they were just like so curious. And I think for me, my

curious. And I think for me, my curiosity just kind of like ended within like web 3 gaming. And I just kind of like ended up being very responsible to like web 3 gaming as a person that is

going to be somebody that covers it, somebody that like does this. I want to champion specific builders and champion stuff. and I lost like my curiosity for

stuff. and I lost like my curiosity for other things um other than you know just gaming because I also rekindled there's a whole bunch of things of like rekindling my love for games and all that kind of stuff I don't want to get

into that but then into now where I started Alpha Wolves I'm just like dude it's so fascinating I'm so fascinated every

single week of like people that are like understanding their niche and just like what they've developed and it just has sparked this new like hunger and and

learning. I don't know if you're doing

learning. I don't know if you're doing it, Shan. I you might be the only one

it, Shan. I you might be the only one that's here left with me um in chat, but like it has sparked something in me of like a curiosity,

a longing for knowledge um and a longing for um more I should say. Um and I'm not saying that I'm like leaving web 3 gaming like that is not what I'm saying

is just like that there is more things than web 3 gaming. Like I'm always going to be a champion. And I'm going to talk to freaking 50 founders in in crypto gaming. I'm literally like Loaf is one

gaming. I'm literally like Loaf is one of them as well too. But it's just like this beauty of like understanding and being curious on every little thing is just fascinating to me. Um and I finally

got that back and I didn't know it was gone. Sometimes you don't know it's gone

gone. Sometimes you don't know it's gone until you get that feeling back and man special. Uh Shassan saying you know history is awesome and kind of

running uh in reverse. We're going from closed borders to open internet, centralization to decentralization, gold to BTC, great depression to great inflation now. So many parallels. Shan,

inflation now. So many parallels. Shan,

dude, you're so brilliant, dude. You're

such a brilliant dude. Um, and then Drew, love you, brother Lao, here again.

Shan, definitely inspiring when I read and research about all these guests.

Yeah, man. And I think that's really what I want to go to. Like,

do we go do we go farther? like do I ping like more people from like my military friends, right? Um and you know, do I

friends, right? Um and you know, do I talk about them? I like I don't know if I can talk to them about the stuff that they're doing, but it's very fascinating

to me to to talk about all these kind of things. Um and yeah, I I just want to

things. Um and yeah, I I just want to just talk to people and yeah, just be a professional yapper. Um

but yeah, then you know, is that what I contribute to society? I don't know.

Obviously also want to do a product uh with Kazuna obviously. Um,

so yeah cool.

Yep, guys. That's a wrap. Um, I think I was going to say something about Oh, wait. [snorts] I forgot

wait. [snorts] I forgot I also forgot. Uh, no, I'm trying to find the quote. Shan, thank you. Uh, I'm

trying to find it. Oh, here we go.

I think I found it. Yes, I found it. His

name is Reagan Bosman.

Let's go into it. Find a freakingly. So

anyways, um he was kind of talking about like the current structure of token launches is feeding a down only paradigm where prices will get wrecked. Token

launches at high FTV slowly bleed out as airdrop recipients sell and then collapse as VCs unlock, right? Um so

this is back from like April 19, 2024.

Really called the top in terms of like the FTV specific cycle. Um this is kind of like everything that you know we've trust me we've seen the shark more than

more than most um even including like our freaking team. It's crazy. Okay so

um I wanted to talk about this SVC team call sell is not always let's just read the whole thing um if you guys bear with me. All right so always

describe worst case scenario for teams token trajectory as ICP chart. If your

token price looks like this, you know, you're messed up long term.

Reflexibility can be a beautiful thing.

The protocols and price go up, help catalyze a real community's developer ecosystem, but the reverse is also true and can be brutal. Um, let me see what this is.

Okay, I don't know too much about that.

Let's quickly define a few things before I ramble further. There are two main measures of token supply. Circulating

supply and fully diluted supply. For

people that don't know, it's like the, you know, circulating supply is all the tokens that are currently in circulation that is able to be traded. And then

fully diluted supply is the uh what the max token will be. And and

there's a lot of things too of like circulating supply is not the best like metric for circulating supply because the way that like uh some of these major

specific ones um talk about like coin gecko or coin market cap they actually do not think of like staking or team wallets even if they're not completely

unlock or completely locked and in a smart contract as lock tokens that they're not going to do it when that's not really the case. It gets there's rugs all the time. All right. Um anyway,

circulating supply uh increases over time until it equals fully diluted supply. Yep. For example, if Yep. Yeah.

supply. Yep. For example, if Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. We all understand that. Market cap

equals circulating token supply price.

Fully diluted valuation, fully diluted price. So market cap equals circulating

price. So market cap equals circulating token supply price times price. fully

diluted in fully diluted supply times price which does not always mean the same thing because you're not putting the demand in the same area. So demand

for the fully diluted doesn't also necessarily mean the right thing. Uh to

steal Kobe's idea, market cap is a measure of demand while FTV is a measure of supply. Yeah, perfect. That's a way

of supply. Yeah, perfect. That's a way better way of what I just said. Market

cap is a total value of public demand.

Um and it rises and shrinks with price action. Assuming decent liquidity, it is

action. Assuming decent liquidity, it is a reliable metric. And what they mean by decent liquidity, there's a lot of market makers, there's a lot of different types of things, but the amount of liquidity is the amount of like trading of hands uh that are

happening in which that you can see the actual demand. So if it's a very low

actual demand. So if it's a very low volume, then it doesn't really move too much. And so it's just a spike of like

much. And so it's just a spike of like demand, not actually if there's demand for the product, if that makes sense.

And the product being the token right now. FTV increases as market cap

now. FTV increases as market cap increases. Both metrics are based on the

increases. Both metrics are based on the current market token price. However,

market cap going up does not mean there is additional demand for these locked tokens. Correct? So, what he's saying

tokens. Correct? So, what he's saying [snorts] is that there is as market cap goes up, there's a current demand for the current like tokens that are

currently happening and circulating. It

does not mean that there is going to be a demand for the future unlocked token price. So for being very simple here,

price. So for being very simple here, locked tokens today and the price is there, locked tokens tomorrow, price might not be there

because of the fact that there is more supply in the market. Not just that, is there demand for that supply? Probably

not. So why you see a whole bunch of selloffs uh and holders of lock tokens may in fact be happy to sell at much lower prices. So FD can be widely an

lower prices. So FD can be widely an accurate metric of true network value.

highly recommending reading the whole thing which is Kobe substack here which for people that are not familiar with tokconomics like holders lock tokens they usually get it at a very like

discounted price or over-the-counter prices and so what over the counter prices are is that they buy it and then they lock it up or they vest it for a short amount of time so let's say that the current price is $1. They say, "Hey,

I'm taking a risk here because I'm investing it up. I will buy X amount of supply. Let's just say 1% of the supply,

supply. Let's just say 1% of the supply, which rarely happens, 1% of the supply for, you know, 80 cents." And so what they're saying, and this happens, but it

was also like VCs happen as well too where holders of like locked specific ones. So FTB can be widely inaccurate a

ones. So FTB can be widely inaccurate a metric for truly network value because they are willing to sell it lower, which then drives down the price. And this is the whole thing for people that are NFT guys. This is the whole thing with the

guys. This is the whole thing with the collab managers that get paid in NFTs but then like dump on the specific stuff because there's not enough volume because they got those for free as

payment and they're willing to sell it at 05 when everyone's holding out 0.1 because the mint price was 03, right? Um

because they got a whole bunch for free.

Um there is a meme that FTV is a fact meme because some tokens trade such wild FTVs world coin at 50 billion and it may be for retail because if you're trading it in and out and it's also yeah based

on like high FTV low floats just like there's not that much supply currently circulating. So if you times the current

circulating. So if you times the current price times FTV, yeah, you're freaking $50 billion, bro. It's not the demand.

It's not the demand. Demand is like the circulating supply of current current thing. Uh but FDV absolutely matters for

thing. Uh but FDV absolutely matters for VCs because they're the ones holding the locked tokens. The vast majority of

locked tokens. The vast majority of protocols today raising from decent VCs have one-year cliff and the vest over the other 18 36 months. Yeah, I get what they're saying. It's like FTV absolutely

they're saying. It's like FTV absolutely matters for VCs because they're are the ones holding the lock tokens. And so if they are holding it, that means that whenever it's unlocked, that is the valuation in which that they're getting.

But it's not really because you're about to dump hard. VC should value assets as expected FTV in three to four years because that is a true reflection of what they could return to their LPs. Um

but alas that is not how the market is working. Yep. Very true. Um I always

working. Yep. Very true. Um I always want to click into what he's saying but here. Okay. So what is the current

here. Okay. So what is the current paradigm I talk about? One launch token at high FTV less than 20% tokens. So low

float uh no public token sale large airdrop which this kind of mechanism has kind of gone off the rails. Uh now it's kind of like very decentralized like specific launches and all that stuff. Um

anyways and now ICOs are back. Uh

dimension is an example of this. 8

billion FTV out of the gate 16% circulating 9 figure airdrop. So yeah uh why is this happening? I think once airdrop paradigm started this was a natural way to boost the money value of

the airdrop without giving more tokens.

Uh and it boosts teams and VC's ego.

Yeah. So what they're saying is that you can give a higher amount of dollar value of an airdrop without giving more tokens because you are giving it out with like

low like you're pretty much you're artificially squeezing the price or artificially squeezing um the supply to

create demand for that shortage of supply pumps the price and so then people are like posting all over the timeline like I made this much money or whatever. or whatever. So, it's also

whatever. or whatever. So, it's also just like, you know, doing that. But

then, yeah, it boosts teams, VCs, and ego because they're like, "Oh, look at all my specific earnings." Not it's going to happen. Those VCs are going to be very shocked. Uh, yes, VCs and teams can sell locked tokens, but I'm not sure

uh there is that much demand for lock tokens. So, not sure how widespread this

tokens. So, not sure how widespread this is. This is the over-thec counter stuff.

is. This is the over-thec counter stuff.

So like, hey, like if a token is like really down bad or like up good, like you can just like sell at a discounted rate and they can get that off their lock tokens off of built books and like

net it, right? Um, it's not always how these projects launch. Most of the dominance L1's today, sub 1 billion FTB out of the gate, uh, similarish unlocks, but generally faster vesting, um, which

means that they just like they get the tokens faster, so [snorts] you get to fully diluted faster. um retail could buy at relatively low prices. So lower

than 500 FTV. That was like the whole issue. Um that's kind of coming back

issue. Um that's kind of coming back with like the pumped up funds and like dexes and all that stuff that people can buy it at a low value. It's just like no one has loyalty anymore. Um so yeah, still getting near 20% circulating

whatever whatever. Um

whatever whatever. Um Shan, I want to I want I want to get to yours and then we can talk me and you on it. Um

it. Um dude, Shan, you should come up. You

should come up. We can figure out on Discord. We can just talk to each other.

Discord. We can just talk to each other.

uh so had 20% circulating out of the gate but 75% circulating within one year. So you the the speed in which that

year. So you the the speed in which that circulating supply happens also reduces um the the price in which that people and loyalty members can also like have

and seep throughout all of it. Um so but 300 300 to 500 million FTV out of the gate you could buy soul below $5 for many many months. So that's one thing is like you want this kind of trajectory of

like being able to have these troughs in which that people are able to buy um as like a community and a loyal community, right? And no one has like really like

right? And no one has like really like nailed that for like NFTTS because everybody like batches all of them. The

only one that I guess like kind of does it is like noun that like totally do that. like if you can figure out a way

that. like if you can figure out a way in which that like you can reward members as like the community grows and all that stuff like I think that's like I think games are are very much possible to do this. But anyways um okay this is

where we're kind of landing the plane of where we want it to go. So like link went out a few hundred million FTV and generally traded below 1 billion FTV for its first 18 months live. Um these

tokens all have strong communities and a solid base of token holders who have relatively low cost basis. What are

these fabled uh crypto communities we always talk about? In my opin humble opinion, community means making money with your internet friends. This is it.

This is it. This is the first principle in which that CK was talking about um as well and also kind of what Tony was talking about too. It's like these tokens all have strong communities and a

solid base of token holders who have relatively low cost basis. What are

these fabled crypto communities we talk about in my humble opinion which I agree and I think CK agrees as well too.

Community means making money with your internet friends. How you make that

internet friends. How you make that money, you know, it doesn't matter. Uh these

are very few strong communities in crypto where the community has not made there are very few strong communities in crypto where the community has not made money. The OG link uh marines had over a

money. The OG link uh marines had over a year to accumulate link below $1 and where link is $5 or $15. there in the black and will absolutely go to bat for

Sergey. Uh think back to ICP chart and

Sergey. Uh think back to ICP chart and also this is why I think Ronin will always be a very strong community because there's so many people in the

black, right? And so if you're looking

black, right? And so if you're looking at it from like a strategy of like crypto Twitter and this is also like where football. fund did right well too.

where football. fund did right well too.

Uh and they've like built on top of it is that like you have like these very strong communities that have made money

off of like you you just have a longer tail for that specific one. So like that's that's why

specific one. So like that's that's why communities are built in bear so you have like more an opportunity to be able to do that, right? Um so I I just think that's like really cool. Um, and so OG

Link Marines over a year to accumulate.

I also think that's why like Mythic Axis and all those guys too, they're so in the black that they'll always go to bat for Ronin. It's like, oh yeah, they kind

for Ronin. It's like, oh yeah, they kind of have like this feel of like reciprocity that needs to be done. Uh,

Shassan, you're saying um Ninja confused. Yeah, probably a lot of people

confused. Yeah, probably a lot of people are confused uh off of that stuff. Uh,

Shassan saying 20% 2025 still left.

Believe in the 8020 rule could be the most impactful part of the year. Um, and

then I'm confused. So many people lost a bunch with locked jewel in 2021 gaming boom then only hype nailed the airdrop uh up only price action best marketing

yeah strong core community rewarded uh making vocal supporters and top tier products strong fundamentals obviously and trustworthy team yeah that's that is

the concoction which son just said there um is up only price action best marketing which kind of like dude it's so like

hard like he it's like up only price action is like you're buying back a whole bunch of tokens and then then like in some capacity that is like what you're you're having to do is like

always buy it up to be able to have like you know revenue and all that stuff which is totally fine strong core community rewarded so making vocal supporters so like you get them early and then be able to do that like that's

the one issue that we had like with wolf and wolves um like if I'm just being completely honest is like you know we I wanted to reward the community but it

you know, um, which then like it was a double-edged sword. A lot of people like

double-edged sword. A lot of people like left Wolves, um, off of like the the launch of Wolf. Um, and I'm very honest and transparent about that, and it's something that I wish was different,

unfortunately. But, you know, sometimes

unfortunately. But, you know, sometimes you take risks and sometimes you strike out. Um, but still, we're going to keep

out. Um, but still, we're going to keep on going. We're going to keep on

on going. We're going to keep on building. Um and then uh strong core and

building. Um and then uh strong core and then top tier product, strong fundamentals and ultimately yeah I I think when it comes to to us like we we did things in in a a different order and

you know top tier product is is what we're going to be focusing on now um and throughout 2026 well rest of 2025 and 2026 uh and then you know trustworthy team. I think we do have that. I still

team. I think we do have that. I still

think we have trust from from people and we've been here for a long time. Um and

as you know I can strike out but I'm still have another at bat. not cut from the team is what what I think. So, all

right guys, that's it.

I love you all.

You guys are the freaking best for for hanging out. Uh Doug Hype in the

hanging out. Uh Doug Hype in the building, Shassan. Thank you guys. All

building, Shassan. Thank you guys. All

of you guys, you guys are amazing people and I love to do