AI to AE's: Grit, Glean, and Kleiner Perkins' next Enterprise AI hit — Joubin Mirzadegan, Roadrunner

During my sales career, probably the number one thing that used to break my back was that the underlying software with like uh Salesforce CPQ and others

just to like create a quote, get it approved is horrific. Like you think if you think you've seen bad software, you haven't until you've seen a 30-se secondond loading screen to get from one

page to another when you're trying to close a deal with like 2 days left in a quarter. This is just like standard

quarter. This is just like standard across the industry. So, I worked at every job that I was ever at. I used to get yelled at because I would like be asking people to like turn something within a day or two because I needed to

get a quote out the door. I was like "Oh my god, I actually think you can abstract away a bunch of the complexity with these LLMs." And it's, you know, a

unstructured and structured text that you can reason with and do stuff with right? Like that's why coding is such a

right? Like that's why coding is such a great use case. That's why Harvey is such a great use case because you have like all this case law and then you can point the LLM at it and you can reason with it. Then you build a bunch of

with it. Then you build a bunch of enterprise features and functionality and workflows on top of that. This is a very similar problem in nature. And so

that was like the light bulb moment of like, okay, I think we can actually build something better.

I feel good. I feel comfortable in this seat. How's my levels?

seat. How's my levels?

>> What's, that?

>> How's, my, levels?

>> Yeah,, you're, good.

>> All, right., Um,

I gotta ask you how was the how was the Zuck interview?

>> Yeah,, it's, very, interesting., Are, we recording?

>> Yeah,, I, just, wrote.

>> Yeah., Yeah., Um,, I, think, they, kind, of obviously had an agenda coming in which was basically to raise the profile of CZI and Priscilla Chan with Zuck being

supporting character, right? And I think they accomplished their mission. Uh

because you know my my quick hot take in in a single sentence is if Priscilla Chan gets half of what she wants to to do done, she will have more impacts on humanity than Mark Zuckerberg. Right.

The Facebook will just be a funding mechanism for the greatest bioresearch work done in human history.

>> Wow., Were, you, nervous?

>> You, must, be, nervous., Uh, I, I, wasn't nervous because of the sheer amount of prep that the CCI people put into us which which like honestly like low key >> to, understand, what, it's, like, with, the

executive staff of a 100 billionaire.

I've never dealt with someone like that.

>> Yeah.

>> They, are, so, good., They, they, like, they prepped us so well. So so that like I felt like I knew exactly. You mean

Zuck's team isn't randomly letting people walk in off the street and just ask whatever without any pre-basing knowledge? I had to like interview three

knowledge? I had to like interview three times to get even in that room. So yeah

it was it was very it was very fascinating. Uh we were very honored to

fascinating. Uh we were very honored to be picked by them because we're not a biofocus podcast.

>> No, >> but, the, whole, point, was, to, reach, out, to engineers and well there there we're on a stronger footing.

>> Yeah., That's, awesome,, man., I, mean, it feels like a breakthrough, doesn't it?

You've had some studs on >> Yeah., Uh, we, just, had, FA, Lee, today., Uh

>> Yeah., Uh, we, just, had, FA, Lee, today., Uh

just Yeah. Just released

>> from, from, you, came, from, that >> World, Labs., Uh, no,, I, we, just, released, it so that was a couple weeks ago.

>> Who, else, have, you, done?

>> There's, a, bunch., Greg, Brockman, >> you've, done, you've, done, some, amazing people. Is it surreal?

people. Is it surreal?

>> Yeah,, it's, it's, surreal, for, me, who started off as just like an independent creator. Let's see where this goes to

creator. Let's see where this goes to now we're legitimately legitimately in that tier of podcast and that gets invited to everything. So, that is very surreal.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's, pretty, exciting., Who, would, have thought, you know?

>> I, mean,, I, think, like, for, you,, I've, been following your progress for a while. I

don't think when you were still like a CRO podcast, I don't think I I was caught caught nod yet, but I think like anyone following top founders who really wants to get real stories, they

eventually find their way to you and you get really good stuff. So, congrats.

>> I, appreciate, that., I, um I think the the transition from the CRO to the founder, whatever it happened like what episode 70 or 80 when I was like cuz it was only CRO for a while.

The thing that I found refreshing, I'm curious if if you've seen this, is that founders and CEOs have an authority to speak in a different way than somebody

on the executive team. Yeah.

>> Where, they, can, just, talk., And, so, much, of what I want to do is have like an earnest and honest conversation. And

it's harder to do that when you're thinking what is my boss going to think whereas if you're the founder, you can just you can you can just speak, you know?

>> Yeah., I, think, yes, and, it's, also, nice, for distribution because obviously that's the more famous or public facing person so people do want to tune in. So you

probably caught my attention for one of those episodes. I I don't even remember

those episodes. I I don't even remember which but um you know you've had so many and even the non CEOs I think I would highlight for listeners uh your Emily Troy episode with uh from Coinbase.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, yeah, like, so, raw, and, so, like, you, you went there with all the politics questions you know.

>> Yeah., the, first, one., Yeah., Yeah., Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I I did. I I um I appreciate it, man. It's uh as you know, it's a

it, man. It's uh as you know, it's a labor of love.

>> Mhm.

>> Doing, anything, every, week, for, 6, years.

>> Yeah.

>> I, mean,, I, guess, it, started, every, other week and then it became every week after the transition from chief revenue officers to to >> CEOs., Yeah., Exactly.

>> CEOs., Yeah., Exactly.

>> Doing, anything, for, that, long, every, week.

You like better enjoy it.

>> Yeah., You, know,, like, I've, always, told myself, the minute I stop looking forward to sitting down with someone and talking to them is probably the minute the show should be over. Well, it hasn't

happened yet. Hasn't happened yet. I was

happened yet. Hasn't happened yet. I was

talking with Alli, uh, one of your partners, and they said they you even had to justify your purchase of a roadcaster just to support your work.

Doesn't Kleiner see the value in this?

Like, >> so, in, the, early, days, when, I, um, when, I joined Kleiner Perkins uh, I was quite young.

>> Yeah., And

uh I was definitely figuring out like what is going on in venture.

>> Can, you, say, a, little, bit, what, you, did before?

>> Yeah,, I, grew, up, in, startups, and, then, uh in sales and then had a great run. Those

startups ultimately ended up getting acquired the last one by Palo Alto Networks which is like a big cyber security company. They asked me to move

security company. They asked me to move to uh the central US and build out their public cloud business in the central US.

took that business from zero to uh quite a bit in a short period of time. Cliner

heard about the work that I was doing and then got in touch to see if there was an opportunity for me to kind of work with founders once you've built the product like what do you do?

>> Yeah.

>> Right., And, I, remember, thinking, at, the time like no way like venture like venture sounds amazing but like isn't that the job that I'm supposed to do like at the end of my career you know like this sounds incredible but like

maybe later on. So anyway, we got to talking and it was um it was uh it became very obvious like there was a unique opportunity here. Fast forward

one of the things that um that ended up happening was uh I was working really closely with Arvin to Glean.

>> Mhm.

>> It's, actually, the, last, incubation, that we've done here. And Arvin is maybe the most genius product and technical mind that I've ever worked with. He

definitely I would say go to market is not native to him. And so he and I were doing a lot of work together to figure out like, all right, we've built this incredible glean product. At the time it was called Sio or Scio. I still don't

know how to I still don't know how to pronounce it. And we were running all

pronounce it. And we were running all these routes together of like I think you should do this. I think you should do this. And then eventually it became

do this. And then eventually it became very clear to me that we actually need somebody to run the routes. Okay?

Because like I couldn't do it and he couldn't do it. And so long story short I started figuring out well like what leaders do I know? What sales leaders do I know? And for me, I didn't know that

I know? And for me, I didn't know that many relative to a bunch of other people that were doing the job that I was doing, who've been in the industry for 30 years, who are at the tail end of their career, who do have this like

coaching tree of leaders. And so I couldn't really help him hire somebody.

And I realized then that I needed an excuse to get to know people that I do not know today. And so that was the

genesis was like, how do I figure out a creative way to get to know these chief revenue officers and help them tell their story? You know, like KP was like

their story? You know, like KP was like uh, you know, maybe prove it.

>> They, came, to, you,, you, came, to, them,, they came to you.

>> Who?

>> KP.

>> Oh,, no., I, went, to, KP, and, I, was, like,, I think we should start >> a, podcast, uh, that, interviews, CRO's., And

they were like, I mean, it was skepticism would be generous. It was uh it was uh you know we don't do a lot of talking as a firm. We generally let our portfolio and our founders uh speak on

our behalf. Uh and so you know there was

our behalf. Uh and so you know there was definitely like other venture podcasts.

Most of them are like pretty cringe if I'm being honest. KP was skeptical and I kind of realized I also didn't do a very good job articulating what I thought it could be. So, I recorded an episode

could be. So, I recorded an episode anyway with my old boss at the time and I sent it to some of my partners here and I just said, "Hey, this is what it would sound like if you're interested."

And I still have a job here. Like, let

me know. This is what it would sound like. And they were like "Oh, this is

like. And they were like "Oh, this is actually better than we thought." Like

they had to feel it. You know, it's like a product that they had to actually feel.

>> To, Allie's, point,, we, were, like,, "All right, let's just do 10 and see how it goes." And then after 10, we were like

goes." And then after 10, we were like "Oh, this is actually like kind of working. I'm getting to know these CRO.

working. I'm getting to know these CRO.

It's getting easier to get to know them." And then I made a commitment to

them." And then I made a commitment to myself that I was going to get to 100.

Like I just told myself like I will not make a judgment on what this is or isn't until we get to 100. Yeah. It's the

same. It's really weird that this number also appears when Marquez Brown talks about how to start being a YouTuber because you just don't know what you are until you just give yourself the room to

experiment. My observation is that I

experiment. My observation is that I don't, know if, you, feel, this, way,, but like it's a very vulnerable feeling.

Like uh even if you're the one asking the questions, not answering the questions, you're really like out there.

You feel very exposed >> and, the, comments, are, a, vicious, place.

And so I don't know, for me, I was like "All right until you get to 100, you don't really know what the quality of the work is."

and you kind of are making a pre-commitment that you're going to tune out the noise cuz otherwise you start overreacting to what any single person thinks about any given episode and then

usually I think that's why most podcasts you know don't make it past five episodes is because people start to be like oh maybe it's not good like they start reacting right uh each of these

slice feels more real and so that's why I made the yeah that's why I decided to do it.

>> Yeah., Uh, you, started, audio, only,, right?

So you didn't Well, the beauty of podcast is nobody can talk back in the comments because there are no comments.

I guess >> with, audio, itune, reviews, or >> with, audio, >> right?, Right., Right.

>> right?, Right., Right.

>> Yeah., Yeah., It, was, audio, only., It, was actually easier with it was audio only.

>> Yeah.

>> In, many, ways.

>> And, now, everyone, has, to, be, video.

Actually, I think the core reason why we wanted to do video was it became very obvious like for me I listen to more podcasts than most. Like I'm quite

voracious about listening to podcasts >> and, I, realized, my, behavior, changed, once I got YouTube Premium where if you turn your phone off, you know, off or

whatever, it's just back, it's just noise. And then when you turn it back

noise. And then when you turn it back on, you you flip the home screen up >> it's, video., And, so, I, kind, of, wanted, the multimodality where >> for, example,, if, I'm, cooking,, you, know,

it's the video's open or take a shower the video's open. And then, you know, if I'm on a run or something, I just click it off and then it's just the audio. It

was, I think, more more and more obvious to us then. I think quite clear now. I

suspect you'd agree that uh that you you need both. You do need both. I think the

need both. You do need both. I think the question is, can you do can you just transition to video without any change in the format whatsoever? And I think

that has difficulties for me. I noticed

anecdotally that so so for example there's a couple things, right? on.

Well, we are a technical podcast, so we can show code, we can show diagrams, we can show demos of of the product. And

so, like, do we do we spend the editor effort and money to put that into the video on the off chance that like the 5% of our audience watching on YouTube actually sees it? I don't know. It's not

it's not like super clear. The other

more relevant thing is when you look at people like Allin uh or Doresh, they start video and then they went audio or you know it's kind of like a video first mentality. Uh and I feel like somehow

mentality. Uh and I feel like somehow when you start video first, it translates better to audio than the other way around. My only knock on video is that it's default more produced.

>> Yeah.

>> And, so, much, of, what, I, want, to, do, is, just have a conversation.

And the minute that you have cameras everywhere with lights all over the place illuminating something, it feels more noticeable to the guest. Do you

know what I mean? Like it just feels more produced. Therefore, they start to

more produced. Therefore, they start to imagine themselves as they're like on TV. Here is what I want to sound like

TV. Here is what I want to sound like when I'm on a podcast as opposed to here is what I just sound like, you know? And

I think as soon as you see cameras and you just start acting differently. It's

like, well, this is not how you are in real life. like what you know just a

real life. like what you know just a different thing and so that's my one knock on the on the video format.

>> Yeah,, I, noticed, you, know, you, you, also did the thing to me where you just start the conversation right you don't have a well here's the intro here's your birth story here's your origin story uh which I try to do sequentially a little bit

but that's one of your tricks right well I would say I go through an extreme level of detail to make sure that the

guest feels very comfortable when they sit down. So, one example of that is

sit down. So, one example of that is you know, how you're greeted at the door, water, all those things. The

second is recording just starts. There

is no like, "Okay, are you ready?" Cuz

the minute that somebody says like "Okay, are you ready? Go." You climb up.

You're like, "Okay, I'm going to be the guest that I want to be." It's like, you know, when you're sleeping at night before you go onto a podcast, you're like "Okay, how am I going to sound?

What am I going to say that's going to make me feel smart?" You know what I mean? Make me sound smart. And so you

mean? Make me sound smart. And so you start to build this like idealized version of yourself that you want to project to the world which is like not real. And so start

real. And so start the temperature of the room like I like the temperature to be cold. I don't want people to feel like they're sweating or hot. Feels like kind of cool in here

hot. Feels like kind of cool in here right? Uh the way that the lights are

right? Uh the way that the lights are you'll notice the lights are all up, not down. Like I I think Yeah. I think it's

down. Like I I think Yeah. I think it's important to not make it feel spotlighty. Yeah.

spotlighty. Yeah.

>> If, that, makes, sense.

um the way that I do prep and then and then for the guest prep like for example I will have read everything about them right and so I'll build basically my own mental model of who I think they are and

then I'll spend the conversation kind of poking at that mental model and then I never give the guest the questions because if you give the guest the questions well all of a sudden it's like a rehearsed set of conversations which

is not how real life goes and so like I go through I guess kind of a lot to make sure that it feels real.

>> Yeah., It's, funny, cuz, like, I, we, get, asked a lot for questions up front. Uh for

example,, the, Zuck, Pod, was, very, very very well prepped and and screened. Sometimes

you just don't get to get the interview if you don't do that.

>> I, won't, do, it.

>> Yeah.

>> I, just, won't, do, the, interview.

>> Yeah,, we're, we're, more, flexible, there.

Um >> if, I, had, Zuck,, okay,, if, I, was, like, if if you told me Juben, you can have Zuck but he has to see the questions before I'd probably >> because, like, look,, the, the, secret, is, the PR team is going to screen the

questions, but you can go off script.

Yeah, >> you, can, ask, followup, questions.

>> So,, it's, really, not, that, bad., True.

>> It's, really, not, that, bad., That, was Creative Corner. I I do want to

Creative Corner. I I do want to obviously get you on the professional side, but obviously I I love to indulge in Creative Corner.

>> Comment, to, Glean., Glean, is, obviously KP's most recent >> incubation, and, success, and, it's, it's gone it's done super well. What's

something that you realized working that made you understand well here's what works in applying AI to the enterprise or whatever like selling AI to

enterprise? Yeah, I think um at the time

enterprise? Yeah, I think um at the time in the early days of Glean it when Arvin came to Mimoon

this pitch of doing enterprise search was like the eye roll of the industry meaning like if you ask any chief information officer if you ask any

venture capitalist they've been hearing that same pitch for a couple of decades now where everybody has promised Google included like the best companies in the world that they're going to solve

enterprise search once and for all. And

so, um, you know, I give Mammoon a bunch of credit because he realized that if this problem is going to be solved once and for all, it's probably going to be

somebody like Orvin that can do it. On

the technology side, like AI, this was whatever 2019 20 2018, 2019. This was not like LLMs

had not been birthed yet, right? And so

I think in the beginning like it was a pretty serious slog with clean because you're asking these systems to basically crawl through an organization's entire

corpus of data do it with all of the permissioning do it with uh all of the off like this multi-layered cake of protections to make sure that I never

see what I'm never supposed to see right like I never see Swix's you know like comp data for example And so getting that right is like

insanely hard. Then let's just assume

insanely hard. Then let's just assume which in Glean's case they did, that you get the technology right. Then you have to figure out how do you get past the

like eye roll of all the people that are like just default skeptical.

>> Yeah., Like, the, category, is, just, dead, to them.

>> The, category, is, completely, dead, to, them.

>> Then, you, got, to, figure, out, like, how, do you deploy that, right? Do you deploy it on their premise? Do you deploy it in the cloud? all the security, then you

the cloud? all the security, then you got to go through an insane amount of hoops because this is like pretty sensitive information that you're indexing. So, you got to go through all

indexing. So, you got to go through all of that. I would say the thing about

of that. I would say the thing about clean is now it's become one of the like obviously great AI companies that's like

in the heart of the hurricane. Back then

it was like extremely unobvious.

Extremely unobvious. So, so let's I want to double click on that and then uh because I feel like we just did the the breath of the problem, but let's talk

about getting past the categories that um sort of default rejection.

>> So,, what, do, you, do, there?, What, do, you what do you learn?

>> Yeah.

>> What, did, you, try, and, didn't, work?

>> The, advantage, that, Arvin, had, was, that, he was previously the co-founder of Rubric.

>> Yeah., So, he, noticed, this, problem, at Rubric, left Rubric to start Glean, and he basically built Glean for Rubric right? And the bet that he was going to

right? And the bet that he was going to make was like rough and tumble what Rubric wanted is probably what the rest of the world was going to want. So it

was like their core design partner. So I

think like he had access to all the right people. he knew all of the

right people. he knew all of the systems. That is like really important. Like

having these early early believers that are willing to basically co-develop this solution with you that you have like unfettered access to get things done. It

was still an insane effort to do it, but I think it made it a lot easier and that way at least you can show, hey, this is like working in production for somebody.

>> Yeah.

>> Right., I'll, pause, there., Does, that, make sense?

>> Yeah., It's, a, design, partner, process., And

I think it's a pretty common go to market for early stage uh enterprise I guess right like that's your ability to communicate what have you built and then how do you get that through an

organization it's like um it's like passing a bill through Congress right like you you have this thing glean and you got to get all of these stakeholders

inside a customer aligned get them all up to speed on like what's in the bill like the product make sure everybody else like you're helping them manage their own process and organization

right?

>> This, is, no, joke., It, is, no, joke., I, don't think people realize how hard it was back then. I I think it still is very

back then. I I think it still is very hard, you know, and it's what's what what's weird is you have a special expertise. I think I think the engineers

expertise. I think I think the engineers that are listening maybe don't have the appreciation of the work that this this this involves. It is a little bit of

this involves. It is a little bit of almost like a military mapping of the organization that you have to sort of understand who your champions are and who the where the resistance is and how

you want to sort of prosecute a campaign to go to market I guess in in a in a very very targeted way. I think if you're an engineer, it's even harder now

than it used to be. And the reason for that is this technology is so new for organizations that they both have to figure out how do I use LLMs and AI

within my own org and how do I use your product within that ecosystem >> right?, So, like, they're, first, trying, to

>> right?, So, like, they're, first, trying, to figure out how do I use the like underlying sand that's changing underneath it and then how do I use your product on top of like quicksand, right?

That's like a really hard problem which is why you see so many companies doing like this forward deployed engineer motion where what they're going in and doing is saying okay number one like

here's how we think about LLMs and where you can get best use of it. Number two

here is this engineer that we're going to forward deploy into your environment that we're going to like basically like co-develop this solution custom fit >> for, this, org., So, you, have, to, do, like, a

lot of handholding. And the reason is because like we're just so early to AI right now that like of course you have to do a lot of handholding like of course you have to like surround these

customers with a bunch of technical resources to like make it successful.

>> Yeah., Are, there, regrets, like, buckets, of regrets that you have? There's also like the did you spend your life working on things that you think are you care about that you were like yeah I mean you know

even if the finances didn't super work out I'm still happy I worked on it if I did not like the mission or the job or like the people I worked with that would

be a bigger regret than the than the pure finance side. Obviously finance

does matter. I always think about it as like well in in terms of ranking you should probably put people, products and money in in so roughly that order.

>> If, you're, evaluating, a, company >> yeah, as, an, employee, obviously, if, you, if you start >> people, product, money, okay >> because product is either the shift and people

and then the money um if if the first two don't really work then no basically no amount of money will really make up for it.

>> Yeah., Okay.

>> Right.

>> I, can, buy, that, stack, rank.

>> Yeah., I, would, maybe, resizzle, it, a, little bit, but I could buy that. Yeah.

>> Like, maybe, I, would, say, like, people >> and, then, I, would, double, people., Like, I would probably add it again.

>> Sure.

>> Uh, and, then, maybe, market, product, money.

>> Yeah,, market's, really, good., Well,, I guess you know I I maybe bundle market with products or or just assume that market is given given I only work in dev tools. But um yeah, that's that's that's

tools. But um yeah, that's that's that's important distinction. Coming back to

important distinction. Coming back to you or just this just general learnings from KP before we go into roadrunner.

Yeah, I just wanted to also touch on the other conversation that you had with Verun from Windsurf which I also I really enjoyed. Shout out to him. He's

really enjoyed. Shout out to him. He's

gonna listen obviously. Um

>> love, that, guy.

>> Another, interesting, company, that, I, was finding parallels to Glean in a sense that kind of you have to just get people to hand over their entire codebase.

Um and a very tough go to market. I've

heard from multiple Windsor folks that you went there and did like sales training, cheerleader sessions. What is

it do you do >> at, Windsor, for, in, general, at, KP?

>> You, just, use, Windsor, for, an, example,, but use that to tell the story of >> of, KP, of, Yeah.

>> When, I, joined, 6, years, ago,, my, charter was kind of twofold at KP. Number one

was, hey, we have this group of CIOS and customer networks. Can you help us

customer networks. Can you help us manage it? Right. Number two was, hey

manage it? Right. Number two was, hey our founders need a lot of help on sales and distribution. Where you can, can you

and distribution. Where you can, can you help them there? Mhm.

>> That, was, like, the, core, charter,, right?

Then I realized that in order to help founders with go to market, like we needed to help them hire. So that was the excuse for the podcast, right? I was

like, "All right, I need an excuse to get to know these people so I can help these founders hire great CRO." Uh, then that all started to work. And we were

like, great, let's double down on helping founders with sales. So, we

hired somebody on my team, Liam. Then

we were like, great, let's double down on helping folks like Verun get access to worldclass customers. So, we doubled down on that and hired uh hired somebody else. And we're like, great, let's help

else. And we're like, great, let's help founders with building their demand genen funnels and a bunch of stuff on the marketing side. Okay. Hire Suzanne.

So that was kind of the first three years was like how do we like KP generally invests in technical founders that's like I'd say a majority not all

but a lot and those technical founders are generally exceptional at product and edge and usually have never closed a deal before or usually have never

created like a pop-offunnel like demand flow, right? And so we wanted to as a

flow, right? And so we wanted to as a firm really help that muscle for KP founders. Okay, like Verun is a great

founders. Okay, like Verun is a great example. He's an amazing engineer, but

example. He's an amazing engineer, but like he's never had to actually build the machine that is sales and marketing market.

>> I, I, think, this, is, something, that, people don't appreciate about Windsurf is that they look at the product and they understand they understand it's a you know it's a IDE but actually there's a sales machine that is one of the best I've ever seen.

>> Yeah., Yeah.

>> And, you, helped, to, build, it., So, I'm, like, well, tell me more about it.

>> I, think, um, and, maybe, we, can, quantify, as well, right? I think like something like

well, right? I think like something like 0 to 100 million AR in 7 months something like that. 8 months.

>> It, was, the, most, torrential, growth, I think I've ever seen in a KP company. It

was insane.

>> That's, a, high, bar, because >> it, was, insane.

>> You, have, some, pretty, good, companies.

>> It, was, insane.

>> Yeah., Tell, me, more., We're, seeing companies like Harvey and others doing following a similar path. But like I mean you know better than anybody like

uh coding is an incredible use case for AI right now right but I don't expect like government fortune 500 to adopt at this at this kind of rate and that's that's why I was seriously miscalibrated

on like I was with them I I did a podcast with them on the day of windsurf's launch and even then I was like h I don't know this seems like a cursor clone. I think what Windsorf got

cursor clone. I think what Windsorf got right was probably a couple of things.

The first was a commitment from the founders that they want to both build Google class product and Salesforce class distribution.

>> Yes.

>> Like, it, was, a, true, commitment, from, the beginning.

>> Okay.

>> And, most, founders,, okay,, a, lot, of founders will say the product will sell itself as long as we build a good enough product. People will come. They'll come

product. People will come. They'll come

they'll pay the $20 a month, and then they'll they'll just love us so much well, they'll magically upgrade.

>> Exactly., Which, usually, doesn't, work, that way. So, that was like I think number

way. So, that was like I think number one was like a real commitment to doing it up front and knowing that if you can marry those two things, like it's magic.

Okay. I think the second was that they were in a great market that was getting pulled. Generally speaking, the coding

pulled. Generally speaking, the coding market still today is just getting dragged by the industry because it's such a good use case. Engineers are

expensive. Having a co-pilot for them is like makes a lot of sense. The

technology is there to be able to take the structured nature of code and reason with it to then produce outputs that are great for for engineers. So like that was kind of number two. And then I think

the third was probably just like they moved fast. They hired great and they

moved fast. They hired great and they hired fast.

>> Yeah., Were, you, involved, like, Graham, Jeff? I would give more credit to Liam

Jeff? I would give more credit to Liam on my team who was like intricately involved in building out that entire go to market. That team I guess is now at

to market. That team I guess is now at >> cognition >> at, cognition., So, you've, seen, it firsthand.

>> Yeah.

>> No,, like >> it's, no, joke., This, is, why, like, I, mean, I I put it as as part of my like why cognition thesis. Core cognition Devon

cognition thesis. Core cognition Devon cognition is very good at product and inch but they didn't really have that much of a sales team. And here's the most crack sales team I've seen in in

coding, at least, in, dev, tools., And, you just bring them together like like how hard can this be? Like this is like a really good formula for success.

>> Yeah., I, don't, want, to, understate, how serious Windsurf was.

>> Yeah.

>> About, distribution,, not, just, product.

>> Okay., The, lesson, that, I, take, away, from them is like they were as serious about building an incredible product as they were about building incredible sales and go to market.

>> Yeah.

>> And, it's, easier, said, than, done.

>> Yeah., You, can't, be, serious, about everything and everything's the number one priority. That's right. What the

one priority. That's right. What the

hell? But they did they they they pulled it off. Uh which is impressive. Uh the

it off. Uh which is impressive. Uh the

one anecdote I guess I will share on the distribution side is they're the first company I've seen with like a real one floor the of it is just dedicated to their, video, production., Uh, one one, floor

of the sort of uh office down in city and I've never seen that. I'm like you know you're a pretty young company you're mostly developer tools but like here's like a whole studio set that you can do anything out of and make it

interesting on video. And it's because you really care about getting this across you know even though you're just selling software. Totally.

selling software. Totally.

>> Like, I'm, sure, Glean, doesn't, have, it., I

don't think I've seen a video from Glean that's not just a screen share.

>> Totally.

>> Okay., Give, me, one, more, thing, on, just like your like how do you hire a sales team like this? Right. We have founders listening. They're building interesting

listening. They're building interesting products. They don't really know how to

products. They don't really know how to go to market. Do you have to offer an arm and a leg to hire your first sales leader? Do you have to only work with

leader? Do you have to only work with Kleiner to to do that? Like what is the actual principle that you advise founders to follow?

>> Uh, I'll, give, you, some, anti, patterns., The

first is do not just go on their LinkedIn and look at all the fancy logos that they have gone and worked at and immediately assume that because they

were at Snowflake or because they were at data bricks they must be good for your AI company. It just doesn't work

that way. In fact, in many cases, it's

that way. In fact, in many cases, it's the inverse is true where if you had to sell the number three product in a market and you had to fight tooth and

nail and you were still successful there, you're probably like if you go to a great company going to have a much higher proclivity to do well, right?

Whereas, if, you, were,, I, don't know,, if you join Snowflake at 100 million of ARR and you join like their enterprise team in the Bay Area, it's like, yeah, I get it, but like that's not that impressive.

No offense to anybody that joined Snowflake at that time. There are some diamonds in the rough. So, I think that's that's one.

>> Well,, it's, like, more, like, they're, a, fit for exactly that scenario if you're in that scenario.

>> That's, right.

>> But, you're, not.

>> That's, right., That's, right., Especially

for startups, right? The problem with that is that you have to actually interview them. Like like you can't just

interview them. Like like you can't just see what they did on their LinkedIn profile and know if they're good or not.

Like you have to like actually dig in.

And even more it's not necessarily all of the things that they have actually done that make them good cuz you're hiring for potential.

>> It's, like, all, sorts, of, intangible, things that you have to like feel, right? Like

all the same things that we would, you know, want to feel with a founder right? like do they have a chip on their

right? like do they have a chip on their shoulder? What are they motivated by? Is

shoulder? What are they motivated by? Is

it money? Is it, you know, living in the shadow of their brother or sister? Is it

that they grew up in, you know, a first generation immigrant household? Whatever

it is, right? So, but you go really deep on the back.

>> Really, deep, on, understanding,, hey, there's going to be a million things that go wrong here. When they do, what is the driving force that's actually going to push you over the hump? And

especially in sales, like you get told no way more than you get told yes. After

you get told no enough times internal some like flame within needs to continue to burn to continue to push you, right?

And hiring for that like this is why like every exec recruiter and everything is like they've got it so wrong in most cases cuz they just go to the fanciest LinkedIn profile, right? And are like

"Oh yeah, yeah, this person has like all of these great logos. this is the person you should hire. I'll give you an anecdote inside the KP portfolio. Okay

our top eight companies, let's take five exec roles across the top eight companies, companies like Ripling and Glean. Okay, 38 out of 40 of those

Glean. Okay, 38 out of 40 of those roles, okay, those executives report to the CEO for the first time in their career.

>> Okay,, so, what, does, that, tell, you?, like

well generally it's like their experience is not the thing like it's the context that they've built it's the trust that they have it's their ability

to like learn fast and grow with the company it is not like what have you done at your last five companies >> does, that, make, sense >> yeah, it, totally, makes, sense, uh, it's, very first principles thinking is the way

that uh Scott W would put it >> yeah, so, I'd, say, that's, like, probably, one um one big failure mode. I think the

other especially in AI today is that the bar for how technical you are is going up. It's just going up default.

up. It's just going up default.

>> So, sales, people, got, to, be, technical.

>> Much, more, technical., Like, that's, a, tough one.

>> Like, more, technical, than, they, used, to be.

>> And, what, do, I, mean, by, technical?, Like

you don't have to in my opinion understand like every intricacy of >> the, transformer.

>> Like, exactly, the, transformer., But, you should be able to go over to an engineer's desk and ask the right questions to get a depth of understanding that you can actually

communicate and articulate effectively to a customer, right? And I think like that matters a lot. That matters a lot.

And so like that bar has started to raise more and more for me um on like can you actually describe the product and what you do and how it fits into a

broader ecosystem without relying on like some sales engineer to do it for you.

>> Yeah., But, like, in, a, in, a, in, an, interview sometimes you just don't get that because you that's what sales training is for. That's like people prep battle

is for. That's like people prep battle cards. They they get time with the

cards. They they get time with the product time with the founders then they get it right. It's it's hard to get that in the interview.

>> Yeah., But, it's, it's, not, hard, to, look, at somebody's background and understand were they willing to do that?

>> Yeah., Yeah.

>> Did, they, actually, want, to, do, that?

>> It's, what's, really, funny, is, well, one, of my core memories as an engineer learning the the the ropes in startups was our new head of sales coming in at Nellifi which is a KP company coming in saying

you know I was very stressed. I was like well you know our competitors have these these these these things we need to match them and exceed them. And he's

like, "Nope, that's engineering thinking. Like, give me anything, I'll

thinking. Like, give me anything, I'll sell it." You know, and I was like

sell it." You know, and I was like "Wow, that's a good sales guy." But I think to some extent sales guys, sales people who can sell regardless of the

product, that's the old school way kind of like where they just know how to do the steak dinners and golf things and whatever else they do uh to make their number versus now I think the the rise

of the more technical sales hire who really has to care actually about the product and explain and and get and get in the weeds with people. I think that that's that's a shift that I'm seeing.

I'll add one more thing that really really matters.

Have they worked at a company that is similar in size?

>> Yes.

>> So, for, example,, if, you're, a, seed, or series A founder and you're evaluating sales leaders and AEES that have only been at companies that have done like 50

million or more of ARR when they joined it's probably going to be really difficult for them. And the reason for that is because they've had a brand their entire life. they've had inbound

leads that just come to them, right? Uh

they um they generally can like lean on the credibility of the company to be able they've had a playbook that they just have to execute and run, right? So

there's like all these things that make the feeling of being call it like first sales leader first AE where you're way more of an artist than you are like a

scientist. like it's not this medic type

scientist. like it's not this medic type playbook in the very beginning and then when you get to like where Windsurf was or is now it's like very systematized right um it is a machine

>> so, much, there's, boot, camps, there's battle cards >> but, in, the, early, days, like, it, is, um, it's creative ways of getting something done >> it's, creative, ways, of, getting, something

done and it just looks more like art than it does in science and so if you've never had to do that before it's going to feel quite foreign to Yeah, it's uh it really is and but this

is why you know people with more experience, can can, come, in, and, show, show us the ropes.

>> Like, by, the, way, I, would, not, probably, be a good uh salesperson at Windsurf today.

I just probably like I am not the person to execute this like perfect playbook that was handed to me where I'm like qualifying criteria per letter of the

playbook. You're like this is not my

playbook. You're like this is not my thing, you know. Um, but I think you were you you kind of made a good fractional sales leader, I would say.

>> Yeah, >> because, people, still, talk, about, you internally., Uh,, I, don't know, what, you

internally., Uh,, I, don't know, what, you did. You just like you just did like

did. You just like you just did like motivational sessions or something.

>> I, honestly, they, did, they, did, most, of, the heavy lifting. I probably like went in

heavy lifting. I probably like went in there and did some like random rah rah stuff. Uh and then

stuff. Uh and then >> which, they, need, and, then, introduced Verun to a bunch of a bunch of customers, but the KP team, my team did uh majority of the heavy lifting and so

I give Liam, Lauren, uh Suzanne a bunch of credit for the work that they did there.

>> Yeah., Okay., So, now, we, come, around, to your current thing. few months ago, I think two months ago, you you sat down you told me, I'm working on a new thing and it's like super stealth and secret

but it's going to be the, you know hottest new KP incubation since Glean and I'm super interested in it. All I

know is it leans on basically everything you've done, everything we talked about.

>> But, can, you, introduce, Roadrunner, and, the thesis?

>> I, would, say, you're, right., Like, during, my sales career, probably the number one thing that used to break my back was that the underlying software

with like uh Salesforce CPQ and others just to like create a quote, get it approved, is horrific. Like you think if you think you've seen bad software, you haven't until you've seen a 30-se

secondond loading screen to get from one page to another when you're trying to close a deal with like two days left in a quarter. Okay? And this is just this

a quarter. Okay? And this is just this is just like standard across the industry. This is just how it works.

industry. This is just how it works.

This is how it worked at every job that I was ever at. I used to get yelled at because I would like be asking people to like turn something within a day or two because I needed to get a quote out the door. It happened when I was leading

door. It happened when I was leading teams. They would always be getting yelled at because they were trying to move too fast for these systems to work.

Okay. And the reason the underlying systems do not work is basically pricing models went from a world where it's like all right Swix like you want to get a

Netflix account you have like one seat you that maps to one person okay and then it's like $10.99 a month very simple right then you're like okay

actually I want a family plan okay well now you can add five people no more than that and it's like $8.99 a month that's like how pricing models have generally worked in the B2B context it's like I

want to sell a thousand licenses of you know pick your product LinkedIn right that maps to a thousand people at an organization okay what has happened is

that we have now done you know like companies have like 30 products more 50 and 100 in some cases uh those products scale by volume and then there's discounts associated with them then you

have to do renewals then you want to do early renewals then you want to do expansions then you want to do them across Ross like 15 different product lines, right? So the complexity has just

lines, right? So the complexity has just started to like increase exponentially.

Then you were like actually um I want to just I want the customer to pay as they go. That may be how you guys are using

go. That may be how you guys are using uh how you guys are selling today. It's

like well I actually just like like make sure they pay a minimum amount and then anything above that we'll just bill them. Right. It's like how data bricks

them. Right. It's like how data bricks >> very, custom, function.

>> Exactly., Like, that's, how, a, lot, like that's how cursor and others are too.

It's like amount of tokens that I consume just pay just bill me for that.

So like these pricing models have gone bananas. Okay. And by the way this has

bananas. Okay. And by the way this has barely even started. And the reason it's barely even started is like with AI all of these pricing models are minimally going to start to look like consumption

based pricing right that's like how you exactly that's how you consume anthropic and that's how you consume open AI.

>> Yeah.

>> And, so, the, problem, is, about, to, get, way worse. Okay. And so it was a problem

worse. Okay. And so it was a problem that I kind of like was feeling because I was like, "Oh, the underlying data model is just breaking because 20 years ago, Salesforce CPQ was not designed for

like all of these permutations, right?

It was like a static world where one person is a Netflix license. The most

you could do is a family account right?"

right?" >> Yeah.

>> Okay., So,, that, happened., Then, I, joined KP and um uh Lauren on my team and I started a group of tech CIOS, 35 tech

CIOS. Okay, companies like Uber and Box

CIOS. Okay, companies like Uber and Box and others, okay, that meet twice a year and this was like four years ago. So

like preLLMs, pre- anything. Uh I um I asked them, what is the number one problem that you have in your company right now? So I was at a dinner with

right now? So I was at a dinner with like five CIOS and they were like uh CPQ and I'm like no way. And they were like no I'm not kidding you. They said, "We

are getting yelled at by our chief revenue officers and salespeople all the time because the underlying software that we're delivering to them doesn't

work." Fast forward 6 months later, we

work." Fast forward 6 months later, we have a second dinner. Okay. Different

group of CIOS in this in this network.

Okay. So, now I'm with five other CIOS.

I ask him, "What's the number one problem you have in your company?" All

of them said the exact same answer. And

I was like, whoa. Like that's pretty rare. Like you just don't pain does not

rare. Like you just don't pain does not grow on trees like that. And so we as a firm got very excited because we were like, it's pretty rare and unique to

have this many customers that have this bad of a kind of uniform pain.

>> So, we, did, a, full, market, map., We, were trying to invest in a company. Didn't

find anything compelling. Okay. Just

like could not find any great companies.

Okay. Um, then GPT 3.5 comes out and I was like, "Oh my god, I actually think you can abstract away a bunch of the

complexity with these LLMs and it's, you know, a unstructured and structured text that you can reason with and do stuff with, right? Like that's why coding is

with, right? Like that's why coding is such a great use case. That's why Harvey is such a great use case because you have like all this case law and then you can point the LLM at it and you can reason with it. Then you build a bunch

of enterprise features and functionality and workflows on top of that. This is a very similar problem in nature. And so

that was like the light bulb moment of like okay I think we can actually build something better. Then I started asking

something better. Then I started asking myself well like why is nobody like why is nobody fixing this?

>> No., So, in, those >> Yeah., Why, is, nobody, fixing, this?, Right.

>> Yeah., Why, is, nobody, fixing, this?, Right.

Like that's the question like why has the incumbent Salesforce and anybody else not fixed this? Why is this still an issue? Okay. The reason is because um

an issue? Okay. The reason is because um all of these tools were basically built in a pre-LM era. Their data models are

broken because they did not see consumption and a million SKs and the sprawl that comes with that coming.

In order for them to basically build a product that handles all of the complexity and permutations, they have to rebuild their entire data model and architecture from

the ground up, which is the same thing that basically most incumbents have to do today, right? Which is why there's like so much frenzy around early stage

startups in VC because in order for an incumbent to go do what an like a Harvey is doing, you have to literally rebuild that company from the ground up. Like

you have to build the entire architecture differently. Like it

architecture differently. Like it reminds me when I was in the public cloud like my career was in the public cloud before this and the very early days everybody was moving from onrem to AWS. Okay. And initially everybody was

AWS. Okay. And initially everybody was like great, we'll just lift and shift our application and just throw it into the public cloud. And then all of a sudden you realize like oh no like S3 buck S3 buckets can just like disappear

right? So like no well you actually have

right? So like no well you actually have to rebuild this stack cloud native from the ground up. That's like the same thing that's happening in in in AI today. And so that's like the classic

today. And so that's like the classic innovators dilemma, right? Which is like what do you do?

>> Yeah., Do, you, rearchitecture, or, do, you wait? Do you do you Okay. So that that

wait? Do you do you Okay. So that that happened. Then I come to find out okay

happened. Then I come to find out okay uh in this case Salesforce which is like the gorilla in the room they have like 95% market share they have end of life

their CPQ solution and they are making everybody move to a new product okay so they are trying to do this that product does not exist yet if it does it's incredibly flimsy we've talked to some

of the people that are trying it right now and so we basically have a 2-year window where we have to beat them to the punch and We love we love that. And the

reason we love that is like boy would I rather compete with like whatever 100,000 person Salesforce that I don't even know what kind of engineers may or may not still be there versus like open AI

>> you, know, like, that, just, like, that's, who we want to outsprint.

>> Then, I, started, asking, myself, well, like why hasn't anybody done this yet? And

the short answer is one I don't think the technology was there. And the second going back to your earlier question Swix is this is a very complicated go to market and distribution question. It is

up market. The problem is more up market because that's where the complexity is and um and in order to like do something elegantly up market you need to like know what you're doing in the

enterprise. Yeah.

enterprise. Yeah.

>> Right., Uh,, and, it, just, so, happens, that you need early believers like Glean had with Rubric that are willing to take a bet with you in a like design partnership to co-develop it with you.

And it just so happens going back to our earlier conversations that episodes 1 through 80 were interviewing CRO who are the people that have the pain.

>> You've, been, preparing, this, the, whole time. The other thing that I was like

time. The other thing that I was like responsible for the KP was like these CIO networks who are the ones responsible for delivering software to these people to alleviate their pain.

And so it's like I just so happened to know basically all of the key stakeholders in this problem. Do you get a guy? So actually at that point I was

a guy? So actually at that point I was like oh man like do I really want to like life's pretty like KP life's you

know like I have I know I have seen what a company what it looks like the bite out of your life that it takes to like

build a company. So anyway, um point being, um after talking with uh my partner at home and like understanding like is this a commitment that we're

willing to make uh and talking to uh my partners at Kleiner Perkins like uh folks like Mimoon and Ilia to be like hey if we do this like I think I think I

have to do it like I I don't think I don't think it's going to really make sense for us to hire somebody off the street right now and then I'll build a co-founding team that is like

technically excellent and world class.

So anyway, that was the thing or I should say the million series of things that that tipped us over the edge.

>> Well,, where, are, you, today?, What, are, you ready to share in terms of what the product is, what what the people you're working with, the problems you solved?

>> Yeah., So,, I, will, work, backwards, from, the list. Yeah. that you used of how you

list. Yeah. that you used of how you would evaluate companies because it's the same thing as me.

>> Wait,, money, first?, All right,, let's, see.

>> Team, first.

>> Oh,, okay.

>> Team, was, your, first,, wasn't, it?

>> Yeah,, but, you, said, you, said, backwards.

>> No,, no,, no., Work, I'll, work, top, down.

>> Okay.

>> Team, first.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh, we're, at, uh, nine, people, today., Two

co-founders, AJ and Eugene. AJ went to Caltech at 15 and finished second in his class. Like guy was in diapers when he

class. Like guy was in diapers when he was in school. Was absurd. met Eugene

his first day of school. They've been

working together basically ever since.

AJ went to Robin Hood. Eugene went to Meta. They went to NASA together. Built

Meta. They went to NASA together. Built

a bunch of the software for the rover the Mars rover. Then they started a company together called Athena. Uh which

was an LLM for caller students to send their applications. It would grade it

their applications. It would grade it tell them how is it, all that. Uh then

they realized like the TAM or end market of .edu DU is not that compelling.

>> Depends, like, some, sometimes >> it, depends., They, were, not, that, inspired by it. They wanted to go build

by it. They wanted to go build >> if, you're, a, capital, and, like, you, can, do this business. Yeah.

this business. Yeah.

>> They, wanted, to, go, build, a, giant, company.

They independently found this problem independently got excited about it.

>> Salesforce, CPQ.

>> How, do, you, deliver, better, software, for for AES? Yeah. CPQ. Okay. Because they

for AES? Yeah. CPQ. Okay. Because they

were asking their founder friends like what's the number one problem at your company? And they kept answering this

company? And they kept answering this question. So anyway, then we met. It

question. So anyway, then we met. It

became very obvious that what I had was like unfair distribution, an understanding of the problem coming from sales. And what they had was

sales. And what they had was extraordinary technical chops. So

anyway, >> that's, team.

>> That's, team, plus, uh, some, killers, uh across the board. By the time this comes out, we'll have soft launched. The only

other interview that I'm doing besides you is where interviews me on grit where we'll talk we'll talk about it. We're

co-developing the solution with design partners. I was very inspired by what

partners. I was very inspired by what Glean did. So Glean built for Rubric.

Glean did. So Glean built for Rubric.

We're building for four design partners shared Slack channel, weekly standups.

Like we are taking the same bet that basically Glean made, which is that what these four design partners want is probably going to be what the rest of the world wants.

>> Do, you, want, diversity, in, in, those, four?

Like you know what I mean? What you

really want is we had to make sure that our data model is infinitely flexible that we don't run into the next permutation that we haven't seen. And so

what you want are the hairiest >> design, partners, that, have >> every, skew, hardware, software, SAS consumption like you want the mess

>> to, throw, that, at, your, data, model, to, make sure that nothing tips it over. And so

those are the types of of of design partners that that we wanted. And it's

helpful like I know the CIO, I know the CRO. In most cases, I know the CEO. And

CRO. In most cases, I know the CEO. And

so like you don't have to deal with the like normal big company BS of like legal and procurement and all these things.

They can like, you know, help shepherd you through the org.

>> Yeah., Let's, talk, about, data, model., Did

you get it right from the start or what was the biggest changes that you've done since you started? The team probably spent only doing data model. That is it.

Like late nights. And what does do data model mean? Like for example, there are

model mean? Like for example, there are rules that every customer has where it's like if you're a AE in the UK, you can only quote certain SKs that have certain

discounts on them. Like you can only have so many there's only a max discount that you can present a customer, right?

If you're doing a deal through a channel partner and you're doing it out of Canada, there's all these rules that are connected to it. So imagine like all of

these SKUs, all of these rules, all of this thing is like this extraordinarily interconnected system that has to be accounted for. And so making sure that

accounted for. And so making sure that we threw as much of the real life information rules and permutations as possible to like not tip over the data

model was incredibly incredibly important. So like that's where we spent

important. So like that's where we spent a large large portion of the time getting right. Does that make sense?

getting right. Does that make sense?

>> Yep.

>> And, I, also, know, that, you, know, best, lead plans run into reality and then they get screwed up with the first contact.

Right.

>> For, sure., like, you, know, even, if, you, get consumption right for example where you're like all right they can do it how do you represent that on the UX right or

cognition or windsurf like magic and if you get that right which is I think what we're about to get right then you earn the right to go build a big company that's I like the way that you phrase

that I love earning right to do bigger things like you don't you don't what something that makes me uncomfortable with founders saying, "Oh, we'll build a compound startup in as early as you

are." is, "Well, the ambition is very

are." is, "Well, the ambition is very big, but have you earned it?"

>> 100%., Can, I, actually, tell, you, one, other thing that kind of annoys me? I think a lot of times uh in the valley, founders will pretend

like the mission that they have is like bigger than it is. For example, if you're doing what we're doing, I think we're solving a really important problem for a certain set of people. Okay? high

value people.

>> Yes.

>> But, like, we're, not, helping, a, mental health crisis. We're not like feeding

health crisis. We're not like feeding people in other countries, you know like we're not doing what what the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative is doing.

>> And, I, think, it's, really, annoying, when people pretend like what they are doing is like this revolutionary thing. It's

like no, what you're doing is solving a really hard problem for a specific set of people. If you're able to solve that

of people. If you're able to solve that problem and those people are delighted then you earn the right to go solve the next problem. If you solve enough

next problem. If you solve enough problems in perpetuity, then you earn the right to go build the big company.

And when you go build the big company then you get all of the cool things that come with that. People taking on bigger roles and responsibilities than they ever had. Engineers owning new product

ever had. Engineers owning new product initiatives, soup to nuts, IC's that then become managers that have no business becoming managers. Of course

all the financial stuff that comes with that. In my mind, I'm like, that's a

that. In my mind, I'm like, that's a mission that I can get behind. You know

I still think the problem that we're solving is interesting and cool, but I think it's really annoying when you're like, "Oh my god, this is like the thing that I've been thinking about since I was 1 years old and everybody else also

has to feel like this." I don't know. I

find that annoying. Well, sometimes you have to just pump pump yourself up for the fund raise, but there's always like sort of two versions of the story. AI

findings. Uh, you know, we we're an AI engineering podcast. We do care about

engineering podcast. We do care about how AI is being utilized to transform and re revolutionize things. I think

you're going to find it in small little ways, but any surprises. I think if you dream the dream um where LLMs will be a superstar in um

in this company is like if you're one of our customers and all quotes go through Roadrunner. Okay. Basically, you can

Roadrunner. Okay. Basically, you can imagine a world where it just recommends like just do this deal. Like, oh, you're doing a deal at Costco. Great. We just

did a deal with Nordstrom that looks a lot like this deal. Okay. Uh, you should adjust these things and then deliver it this way. And so, the system

this way. And so, the system >> like, proactively, suggest >> exactly, the, system, will, basically, have all of the historical information about what have you done >> and, once, it, has, all, of, that,, it, will

then tell you this is how you should bundle it up. And by the way, today that's all human in the loop. Today, if

you're a new rep at Glean or a new rep at Cognition and you want to like put one of these deals together, you're like calling deals desk and finance, you're like calling the top AEES at the company

and be like, how do you even like put this together, right? And then if you're using Salesforce CPQ, which most people are, you like then go into like loading screen hell. Then you built a bunch of

screen hell. Then you built a bunch of custom software on top of that because the data model doesn't work. So you have to like fits around with it to like actually make it work. like it's a complete nightmare. Um and so like that

complete nightmare. Um and so like that is where the magic of of Roadrunner will will come. So you're maybe if I can

will come. So you're maybe if I can abstract a little bit, you're kind of automating the deal desk and not the AE.

You're extending you're augmenting the AE. You're improving ramp up time for

AE. You're improving ramp up time for the AE or productivity of the AE. How

would I describe it? I would say we are >> like, whose, job, are, you, taking, away?, Like

I would say um very specifically AEES are quite expensive and they spend a ridiculous amount of time doing administrative work trying to get these hacky systems to go

>> perfect., And, right, now, the, amount, of

>> perfect., And, right, now, the, amount, of bouncing around and ping ponging that they have to do inside of an organization just to get a quote created and approved is a nightmare. We should

solve that. And by the way, guess what?

Deals Desk and all these people should not be doing that either. you know, like there's way more strategic things that they could be doing.

>> Yeah., I, mean,, in, in, Cognition,, it's, just like a really active Slack channel where everyone's just throwing stuff at each other all day long and it's it's a mess.

>> Yeah,, it's, mayhem.

>> Yeah,, it's, complete, mayhem.

>> Um,, interesting., Okay., So,, any, anything else you wanted to cover on just Roadrunner in general? Like your vision?

I think we covered a lot of it. Just any

part of the story that uh, you know, you want to get on the record? No, I would just say like we are not demand constrainted.

Like I know every customer and they're all like banging down my door right now.

The only fight that I've ever had or have with my co-founders is that I'm like, "Hey, these 10 customers want to come and join us and and work with us."

And they're like, "We do not have engineering bandwidth. Like our road map

engineering bandwidth. Like our road map is being dragged out of us."

>> Yeah.

>> It's, very, clear, what, we, have, to, go, do.

There's no like surprises from here on the things that we need to go actually build. Obviously, the strategy is the

build. Obviously, the strategy is the same. The tactics will bob and weave.

same. The tactics will bob and weave.

And so, um, yeah, we are, um >> any, product, an, inch.

>> We, are, meaningfully, bandwidth constrained on amazing talent that wants to go through the grind of building an early stage company.

>> Yeah., Well,, we'll, we'll, uh, get, you, that.

Kleiner is very good at getting that.

Uh, I don't think I don't think there's any doubt there. Okay. So, just zooming out a little bit, I was promised a bit earlier. You you like running a lot.

earlier. You you like running a lot.

>> Uh-huh., Just, tell, me, more, about, like just the the general overall philosophy of high performance, right? I guess it kind of what does that mean to you? I

think we had this conversation about this. What does that mean to you from

this. What does that mean to you from like your personal life into work?

>> I'll, be, like, I'll, try, and, be, tactical rather than abstract.

>> So,, physically,, to, your, prompt, on running, I work out every day no matter what. I first thing

what. I first thing >> sweat, every, day, as, soon, as, I, wake, up.

>> It's, either, so, Mon, it's, it's, pretty consistent. Mondays I bike up Hawk Hill

consistent. Mondays I bike up Hawk Hill which is like over the Golden Gate and up into the headlands.

>> It's, like, a, nice, way, to, start, the, week.

I'll run twice a week. I'll usually lift weights twice a week. Uh usually play a sport or something.

>> Oh,, what, sport?

>> Basketball, has, been, the, sport, of, choice recently. Although every time I pick up

recently. Although every time I pick up a ball, I'm like pretty convinced I'm going to like, you know, like tear my ACL or something, you know. Uh anyway

>> depends, how, hard, you, push, yourself., I

guess you push me hard.

>> Yeah., Physically,, I, I, will, um, work, out every day, salad for lunch every day.

I've been doing it's just easier. I've

just found that if I can just do the same things over and over again, my life is just easier. I don't have to think about it. For example, on the working

about it. For example, on the working out thing, it is way easier to know that I am going to work out every day rather than have the cognitive load of like what days am I going to work out this week, or, when, am, I, going to, do, it, or, like

for lunch?

>> I'm, just, going, to, have, a, salad, and, have salads for lunch.

>> Yes., There's, no, choice., I, don't, want, to make the choice.

>> The, way, I, phrase, it,, I, think, Tim, Urban says this, it's much easier to do something 100% of the time than it is to do it 90% of the time.

>> 100%.

>> Right?

>> Like, think, about, if, you, were, deciding,, I want to work out four days a week. Then

you have to figure out like what are you going to do?

>> Yeah., Like, you, know, did, I, skip yesterday? Does that mean I can skip

yesterday? Does that mean I can skip today or Yeah.

>> Exactly., And, even, to, your, question, on like the style of workout like I'm just doing whatever I feel like besides Mondays like I feel like doing that day.

And even if I go and like lift at the gym it's just full body. Whatever I feel like is next I'll compound every exercise and I'll just run through it.

Like I don't have like a set cuz I just want to reduce friction as much as I can to just like get those things done. on a

personal reflection like there's a real reason I'm asking this question but just a side comment and you can comment if you want. I feel like this is so

you want. I feel like this is so important like your personal health and your fitness and your sort of peak productivity practice that I find it interesting that VCs don't do that to

their, founders, like, hey, I'm, going to lock you in a room basically only HFZ does this hey I'm going to lock you in a room uh you know like make make you make you eat healthy make you like like you know take care take care of everything

so you can go work on a company cognition has an engineering sort of basement and I've advocated pumping oxygen into there because that is like a very valuable thing to have. And like

>> the, the, problem, is, that, it, kind, of, has to come from within. Meaning like it kind of has to be a habit that you've had that you can then carry on to founding a company because like the

amount of demand on your time. It's like

a pie eating contest and the the prize is just more pie. And so like there is no limits to how much has to be done.

And so I think I just got lucky where I had some of these habits before. Yeah.

And then I was able to just like carry them on. Otherwise, like even now I'm

them on. Otherwise, like even now I'm like I feel very constrained being able to do some of these things.

>> No,, totally., Kind, of, the, real, reason, I was going to ask was you listen to a lot of podcasts while you're doing all this.

>> What, are, your, favorite, other, podcasts?

>> Oh, man.

>> Do, you, listen, to, your, own, podcast?

>> She, does, on, Rex., Yeah,, I, do.

>> I'm, very, critical., I, I, send, notes, to, my editor, my co-hosts. Um yeah, I used to listen to everyone and then my editor was like cuz it was like before we would release I would have like a litany of

notes and eventually they're like dude we've been doing this for whatever 200 plus episodes like you don't have to listen to everyone and send notes like it just bogs down everything just like trust us so I've stopped I created some space

>> yeah, right, anyway, so, I, wasn't, asking about our pod but just like just other pods that you enjoy and recommend to others I'm just giving people Rex >> I, think, some, of, uh, Oshanessy's, invest like the best are pretty good.

>> This, whole, thing, with, Colossus, >> it's, Yeah,, it's, interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> I, think, some, of, Joe, Rogan, and, some, of Tim Ferrris is good.

>> Some >> Yeah.

>> Some, of, Shane, Parish, is, good.

>> Yeah.

>> Like, uh, I, have, guests, that, I, like, when they interview them, but I don't follow I personally don't follow any host religiously. Like I get interested in

religiously. Like I get interested in guests and then I'll go down the rabbit hole for like what shows have they been on and I'll just listen to those and then if I like the interviewer then I'm

like oh this is a new show. Maybe I'll

go check out one or two more but I'll go like like for example like I've gone as deep as Deep can go on Elon. Like

there's probably I have probably listened to and he does a bunch of them you know I've probably listened to a bunch of them and if he's been on >> He's, not, the, easiest, speaker, to, follow.

>> No, it, is, a, bit, jumbled.

>> Yeah., Uh,, so, I'll, go, deep, on, a, guest.

I'll go deep on a guest.

>> Have, you, done, speaker, training?

>> No.

>> Coaching,, you, know,, we're, considering that just cuz you know, you basically do public speaking as part of your job right? And well, you should probably get

right? And well, you should probably get coaching for it, just like anything else.

>> You, know,, my, reflection, doing, this, with you now is that asking the questions is way easier than answering them. And so

how's it feel? Huh? I would say I would say on the you have way more control over a conversation when you're asking the questions.

>> Yeah,, sure., I'm, just, I'm, just, loving stuff.

>> Yeah,, exactly., And, you're, usually speaking whatever like 20% of the time and the guest speaks like 80% of the time and you like have a general sense of where you want to go and so I got the plan here.

>> Yeah., And, like, you, know, uh, maybe, if, I were to do more on this side of the table versus yours, I think speaker training might make sense.

>> Yeah., Well,, you, know,, speaking, comes, in all shapes and forms, including running a company. So, so, uh, I do view it as a

a company. So, so, uh, I do view it as a very general use case. For me, I run a conference and so I do the keynote every time, every conference. So, it really actually does matter cuz I set the example for my speakers. My favorite

definition of sales is an ability to transfer enthusiasm from one person to another. And I think that when you're

another. And I think that when you're recruiting, when you are on stage at your conference speaking, when you're an interviewer or interviewe, when you go

home for the holidays and hang out with your family, like I think all of that, I really like this definition of like how do you transfer enthusiasm? And I think

it has to be raw and I think it has to be organic. Uh, I think that's uh if I

be organic. Uh, I think that's uh if I were to like train or be trained, I would really try to get to the essence of like how do I help transfer my enthusiasm about whatever it is that I'm

talking about into those that are listening.

>> Yeah., The, challenge, for, you, is, you're pretty naturally good at it. So, it's

going to be hard to find someone who is better than you to to, train, you.

>> So,, you, know,, a, bit, of, a, compliment., Uh,

speaking of definitions, my favorite closing question. What is the definition

closing question. What is the definition of grit to you?

>> The, namesake, of, the, show, came, from Angela Duckworth's book Grit, who I had the the honor of flying out to to Pennsylvania and interviewing which was amazing.

>> The, same, school, we, So, the, background also is that Penn invented positive psychology or pioneered positive psychology and she came from that >> line, of, thinking.

>> Yeah., And, her, definition, is, I, mean, she wrote a book about it so it's hard to define it quite narrowly but passion plus perseverance over a sustained

period of time. And I think the like natural tendency when you think about grit is like literally gritting your teeth. Like how do you just endure?

teeth. Like how do you just endure?

And I think the like operative word in her definition is passion. The way that I think about it is like how can I put myself in positions where the thing that

I'm doing, the thing that I'm working on, the job that I'm doing, the company that I'm building, the relationship that I'm in, how can I be in the more of

those situations where I really care?

Because if I really care, then I can transfer my enthusiasm to others. If I

really care, then it'll feel like play to me when it feels like work to everybody else. if I really care, like

everybody else. if I really care, like in the podcast example, I'll just do it for longer than anybody else and just like out sustain you. But I think it's

all because I really care. And so I think this idea of passion is probably the thing that I love most about her definition,, which, is, like, I, don't know, I just try and do things that I really

care about. And therefore, it's just

care about. And therefore, it's just like it feels light for me and then I don't have to feel like I'm always gritting my teeth to do things that matter. It's probably a superlative form

matter. It's probably a superlative form of grit that really captures that kind of flow state grit or passion grit or whatever adjective you want to add to it. Totally would be nice. But thanks

it. Totally would be nice. But thanks

for being on lane space. I I feel like I've been a little bit experiencing the grit experience myself and thanks for um joining us.

>> It, was, hard, for, me, not, to >> ask, you, too, many, questions., I, know.

>> I, tried.

>> You, got, one., Yeah., What, was, what's, on was on your mind.

>> Do, you, have, a, dream, guest?

dream guest I would say is a supporter of ours that is that has promised to be on at some point. Uh

Andre he's a Karpathy.

>> Yeah., Yeah., He's, uh, been, a, mentor, for, a long time. He's he's a teacher. He's

long time. He's he's a teacher. He's

he's very authentic and very super knowledgeable and I think an inspiration for a lot of us who are trying to figure out you know like from from trusted sources like the truth of what's

possible with LMS. And he's very autodidactic as well, which is something I strongly identify with. Um, you don't really know something unless unless you've really taught it to yourself and

and build everything a version of it for yourself. And he does represent the

yourself. And he does represent the simplicity and clarity that I want to see in the world that I try to represent within space.

>> Really, cool,, man., I, appreciate, you, doing this. It's a first time I've been the

this. It's a first time I've been the tables have been turned on me. Crazy

experience.

>> First, of, many.

>> Thanks,, man.