Airwallex CEO & Co-Founder, Jack Zhang: The Angel That Turned $1M into $1BN

I don't know what is financial discipline. So I don't have a budget.

discipline. So I don't have a budget.

I'm just like hire as fast as possible.

Just blow it all up. And then I realized at one point that we're running out of money. Every month I'm raising money

money. Every month I'm raising money basically. So we went from zero to a

basically. So we went from zero to a billion dollar transaction volume within like 9 months. So we basically never grow below 100% from 2015 to 2023. We

went to like $500 million AR in August last year, then hit like 600 in November, 700 in January. Fab. Ready to

go. Jack, dude, I'm so excited for this.

this and we walked around the park and I heard your story and respectfully I was like this is such an incredible story that I don't think many people know

quite how awesome it is. So first thank you so much for joining me. Thanks

Harry. It's a it's a great pleasure to uh join this show. Dude, I want to start with going normally I don't love the whole like, oh, take me back to your childhood because it's normally like, you know, going back to the early days

of Stamford, but you started in Australia and I want to start actually very young cuz you started, was it working in a petrol station? Can you

just take me back to the first job and and that early time? I came to Australia when I was uh I guess 15ish. Um and and

there's you know I went basically started high school and um my family basically lost um most of the money and

I lost financial support when I was 16 and I had to basically figured out how to survive uh in a foreign country by

myself. Uh and that's why I started uh

myself. Uh and that's why I started uh work in a restaurant uh work in lemon factory. Um and you worked in a lemon

factory. Um and you worked in a lemon factory? Yeah, that's during summer, you

factory? Yeah, that's during summer, you know. I uh go uh basically

know. I uh go uh basically go take a few hours of train and buses to get on the mountain every day and uh

to literally carrying lemon uh boxes um you know thousands of lemon boxes a day uh under this, you know, 40 degrees and uh for 12 hours a day without even

eating lunch. How much did they pay you

eating lunch. How much did they pay you at the lemon factory? Uh they actually pay okay. They pay like 14 bucks uh

pay okay. They pay like 14 bucks uh Aussie uh hour. Um and uh because you kind of can work over the 20 hours limit during the holiday and it's actually a

pretty decent income but it's just a really really tough job. We nervous

slash scared. You're 16 17 at this point on your own in a foreign country without financial security. It's a pretty intimidating

security. It's a pretty intimidating place to be. Well, I guess it just situation that you don't have a have a choice.

Um, you you know, I left China where I was born and you know, come to Australia about that time already in Australia for over a year. I couldn't go back to China

to do the uh exam to the universities because I would wouldn't be that competitive anymore. I don't even know

competitive anymore. I don't even know how to return to the education system by that time. And literally you have to

that time. And literally you have to figure out how to you know survive and how to pay for the tuitions um you know it which is very expensive for international students. Uh I remember

international students. Uh I remember it's 24,000 a year uh and you have to you know figure out the the living expenses you know help to to fund my

study and um you know I have to do my part just really work as many jobs as possible to figure out how to live on my own. nuts. I love that. There

own. nuts. I love that. There

there's going to be a great visual that my team's going to make of a lemon factory and you so what happens there? We are

earning 14 bucks an hour in a lemon factory. We're working in

factory. We're working in restaurants. What's the next step? You

restaurants. What's the next step? You

go to university like take me to this time. Yeah. So I I went to to to

time. Yeah. So I I went to to to university in Melbourne. Um and that's where I met with my um you know three co-founders and uh I also work um you

know different jobs throughout the college and I was uh work in a restaurant as a dishwasher. Um and I uh work in a bar as as in a Westing hotel

as a bartender. Um I basically work like between 4 to 11:30 uh at in a bar. Uh,

and once that's finished, I started working in a petrol station from midnight to 8:00 a.m. So, I literally work uh 16 hours straight. Uh, and

that's, you know, like four or five days a week. What were you doing in the

a week. What were you doing in the petrol station? That's just doing

petrol station? That's just doing overnight shift and, uh, sitting there doing, you know, uh, cashing the the the people paying the petrol and selling lollies. And

lollies. And so selling lollies that is the most random thing to sell in the petrol station you know like you go to petrol station and be like oh you know do you want to just you know pay for five bucks

for three chocolate and you know that type of stuff that's me do you know what I don't actually drive I don't know if you notice I haven't passed my test is one of my many flaws and so petrol station is not

something I know too well but I I will go for a lolly um so we're there we're at Melbourne University this time and we've met our three co-founders at this

Correct. Uh I met one out of the three

Correct. Uh I met one out of the three co-founders when I got into University of Melbourne student first year. So we

went to basically the same u faculty and we all started computer science uh and my my CTO uh Jacob he's like one year uh older than me uh but like 100 times

smarter. So you meet him at university,

smarter. So you meet him at university, you become friends. Do you start tinkering on ideas together then when you're doing CS together?

Uh well I mean we spent I mean they spent most of the time playing Dota and then competing against each other and I was pretty suck at playing Dota to be

fair. Um, and I was literally, you know,

fair. Um, and I was literally, you know, I spent most of my time working um, and little time in in in a in a university to, you know, I kind of just try to

spend as much as I can. But, you know, I wasn't like the best student in my college, you know, compared to my high school, I was like the top top student of the school where at university I was

just like average student uh, because I just didn't spend enough time to study.

Dude, you're working 16 hours a day. I

mean, poor you. is university is like the side gig. So what was the first thing that you started? If I say to you like your first entrepreneurial thing, what was your first entrepreneurial

thing? I guess I probably wouldn't call

thing? I guess I probably wouldn't call them entrepreneur but that's the first uh sort of taste of uh what a success looks like. Uh so I started um a

looks like. Uh so I started um a magazine called uh urban exploration when I was back in high school. when I

was like 13, 14 together with the uh student in the sort of I guess student society and everyone's obviously working for free and uh you know we need to

raise money for student funding and I uh need to figure out how to do that and we were essentially going to the restaurants and you know um computer shops and stuff around the school to

raise money and they were like oh why don't you just send some flyer up you know for us uh just for for you know $2 uh you know per person and you know give

you some money and but we kind of nobody want to take flyers you know like who who cares. So that we thought we might

who cares. So that we thought we might just write something more interesting and put those ads for those restaurant in the um essentially a magazine or booklet we created um and then hopefully

that people will be interesting to take it. Right. But because we write quite

it. Right. But because we write quite interesting stories like student love stories, how to play like Counter Strike uh and because the school that we were

in the best schools and we write really interesting stories and that magazine just got viral and because we kind of printed out of the school for free and we didn't have any costs and we have

very limited uh print and everyone kind of want a copy of it and I think over like a year and a half we got like 8,000 merchants that putting ads on the on the

magazine and uh we actually made decent amount of money. Um then obviously we kind of donated to the school but it it is just kind of a massive um early

success in my I would say when I grew up you know before I I I came to Australia.

Do you think people are born entrepreneurs or do you think you can become one when you think back to that as a 13 14 year old? I think when you

grow up um that if you taste you know what success looks like early you know whether a spot or any type of mass competition or Olympic competition or

any type of competition or any sort of team spots the tough experience um you know when I kind of lost financial support and when my family kind of lost uh most of money that really toughen you

up right you become quite resilient and when you're working you know 100 hours a week uh at this age and you know had to

go through that mental challenge of of of figuring your life out uh at such a young age. I think you just become a lot

young age. I think you just become a lot more resilient. People ask you know uh

more resilient. People ask you know uh you know I get burned out. I mean I'm just you know working too hard and you know blah blah blah. I'm like dude what what are you talking about? You know do you know what is you know tough life

looks like? you know like I mean in in a

looks like? you know like I mean in in a in in Australia especially you know it's a very uh sort of wealthy country in in general and you know there's less people

have experienced this tough things in life and generally people have a different perspective what life is right so funny for me I work seven days a week and three years in people like you know

what you won't be able to keep this up five years in you know you've done five but you won't be able to keep this up and now I did 100 hours a week for about 20 years dude

And you still look about 25. Well, I I kind of look a bit old now, but uh um And the amazing thing is that you did that on things you didn't love. Like

I've done like 100 hours a week staff for 10 years, but dude, mine is like in cushy offices with lovely things around me. You did jobs, no offense, in

me. You did jobs, no offense, in the early years working insane hours.

That's also what's so insane. Like lemon

factories and restaurants. I didn't

enjoy those jobs, right? So when I was working in the lemon factory have you know under the 40° song and um carrying these boxes or washing dishes. I mean

I'm thinking about one day you know I'm I don't want to do this anymore. I want

to do a real proper job and I want to write a code. The show has been very successful I think also because I'm very open about like my life and I saw my grandparents lose everything like lose their home overnight. You lose all

security as a family and it's very jarring. Um, I'm always actually running

jarring. Um, I'm always actually running from that. Like the reason I work so

from that. Like the reason I work so ferociously hard is because I don't want my family to ever be in that place. And that's what I'm why I'm

place. And that's what I'm why I'm working so hard if I'm honest. Are you

running from that financial insecurity still? Or do you think you're running

still? Or do you think you're running towards something? If I were to ask you,

towards something? If I were to ask you, I think you have different phases in life, right? So that's kind of why I

life, right? So that's kind of why I started Airwalks. Um you know when I was

started Airwalks. Um you know when I was um you know I basically after I graduated I went to work at a Viva I worked at a bunch of investment banks as

a uh developer slash you know um algorithmic trader um and when I was doing those those jobs and um I really

enjoyed writing code and but that's not enough um to give me the financial security. So I was doing a lot of stuff

security. So I was doing a lot of stuff on the side. I was um you know I had a you know importing exporting businesses for exporting olive oils and wine from

Australia. So you had an import tell me

Australia. So you had an import tell me about yeah so I basically exporting olive oil and uh and wine of Australia to you know uh China and other countries

and I was importing textiles from China to Australia. Uh and I had a business of

to Australia. Uh and I had a business of real estate development. I have a business of of architecture uh and project management. Uh and I have all

project management. Uh and I have all these side businesses that you know to be frank generating millions of income every year uh passively like you know obviously I I work full-time you know I

work pretty hard in my in my job and you know I work another six seven eight hours and I work all the weekends uh for my side hustle and you know I'm you know

make 200,000 a year on uh my full-time job uh more or less and and I make you know two three four five million dollars

a year on the other side hustle as kind of that business is getting more mature.

Dude, how the did you do that? Two,

three, four. I mean, this that's real money when you are full-time working at Aviva or as an algo trader and then you're doing an import export business of olive oil. That's not an easy

business to do, is it? It's actually

pretty easy. You know, you think about it, right? It tells me you literally

it, right? It tells me you literally just find a supplier, find a buyer, and you're not a producer. you're not uh you don't need to do any marketing. It's

just B2B, right? You just all you need to do is finding buyers and and sellers.

And you know, I was and at West I was uh you know, a reseller of of phone cases.

You know, I found like a a you know, Australian um uh sort of I guess uh manufacturer. Well, not manufacturer,

manufacturer. Well, not manufacturer, it's more like a brand creator called Quallok. uh essentially now it's a

Quallok. uh essentially now it's a private equity owned the business is actually went pretty big and I work with those guys that are designers and you know I helped them to sell uh phone

cases and I was making decent amount of money um and uh you know I just have a lot of these side businesses that making money at one stage you know come back to the financial

insecurity I probably made like you know more than $10 million when I was 28 29 and I had uh you know financial security at that time uh my real estate business

is getting kind of real scale, right?

You know, we we're start building like 40 50 apartments, you know, you know, 4050 million Aussie dollar project. Um,

you know, I wasn't full-time involved anything, but that's kind of the direction. You just got people to run

direction. You just got people to run them for you. Yeah. Uh, and one of the um the guys running that for me was my co-founder, uh, Max Lee. He's the head of product design. He went become architect and then started the real

estate business with me. uh started a coffee shop with me and which you know we found the the foreign exchange uh and international payments issue that's lead us to to founding airwalls but we had

financial security at that time and me and Max was basically just in a coffee shop and thinking about like we cannot doing this for the you know just make

money for the rest of our life right and you know we wanted to creating real scale business leveraging technology you know I went to college when I see like Facebook took off, right? I mean, I

don't know if you know like we don't use Facebook when we were in college. We

were like MySpace, there's like Hi friends, Frster. Uh Facebook was not a

friends, Frster. Uh Facebook was not a thing and and we just see that shoot off, right? I mean, Google was not even

off, right? I mean, Google was not even a massive company back then. Uh and we just saw saw the whole internet took off and especially like you also saw the internet in China took off uh you know

after so the early 2000s, right? So the

like of uh you know Tencent and you know VChat and and and Alip pay and and Alibaba all took off and you just live in this sort of time that lot of the

generational company get created right dude the lovely thing for me is I I knew parts of this story but I didn't know a lot of this story before we just go to the founding of our wallets there you

have all of these side businesses how do you think about the importance of focus because when I hear people with lots of side businesses cuz I'm always like, why didn't you just focus on the real estate company? You could have made that 10x

company? You could have made that 10x bigger. How do you think about the

bigger. How do you think about the importance of focus versus when it's worth it to have a portfolio? Cuz I need to really enjoy and passion about what I

do. And I'm not passion or enjoy any of

do. And I'm not passion or enjoy any of these business I started. I always say that is like a business that making money. And I'm, you know, not

money. And I'm, you know, not interested. I obviously I want a

interested. I obviously I want a financial security, but making money not going to make you happy. I wanted to leveraging my engineering skill set to create real uh you know amplified impact

at scale and so I starting like probably 10 plus businesses and what I really conclude is I don't like any of them um and I still wanted to pursuing what going to make me uh excited and

passionate about and that's kind of leading to the whole founding story of airwalls. Well, I want to go to that. I

airwalls. Well, I want to go to that. I

feel sorry for many people today because I think so many people actually don't find what they truly love. Like I'm so lucky honestly, Jack. I found Venture when I was 13 years old by watching the social network. That's how I got exposed

social network. That's how I got exposed to venture and like I'm very lucky that I found that cuz it's Well, it took me a decade, right? I started when I was I

decade, right? I started when I was I mean, if you count in the early days, I mean more than a decade, right? You

started washing dishes and petrol station and lemon factory. Then you go from like there to like import exporting. You go from trading. You go

exporting. You go from trading. You go

from like architecture uh you know uh real estate and coffee shop. I mean you all that kind of lead to is a bigger idea that um that you you feel

passionate about. So take me to the

passionate about. So take me to the moment where you found that passion where you're like you know what I've tried these 10 businesses but this is the thing that I want to do. Um I always

knew I love technology. That's why I keep my code. I keep my job of writing code. Um, even I'm making 10 times the

code. Um, even I'm making 10 times the money on the site. So, I never resign. I

never thought about resigning because I need to I need to I need to write code every day. So, I feel that one day when

every day. So, I feel that one day when I actually want to start a business, I can still creating something. Um, and

the you know when we running the coffee business, the idea was not really running a coffee business. the the

initial idea was that okay we we need to basically I would look at like you know in Australia there's uh a biggest teleico called telra and they telra publishing the fast 50 growing company

every year in Australia and more than half those companies are retail businesses like you know burger chain or or coffee chain or some sort of these retail chains and I started like a

burger chain and I started like a coffee chain I mean when I say chain it's only just really one business at a time and was supposed to become a chain. Uh but

during that setting up process, the first problem we we found is that there's no square equivalent in sort of 2013. Um and uh you know the whole point

2013. Um and uh you know the whole point of sales uh payments uh order management uh in the back of the kitchen uh the ordering system, the delivery system,

nothing was really set up. So I was like I should start basically a square um and you know plus the whole kind of backend order management system and I pitched

idea to my CTO you know Jacob you know like and I was like dude like let's do something together. I think this is a

something together. I think this is a real opportunity at that time also NFC you know the touch payment started sort of you know um uh changing the consumer payment behavior. I was like, let's

payment behavior. I was like, let's build something that can support NFC payment and let's go into build this uh you know uh point of sales system and payment system uh for offline merchants.

Um and he's like oh no no like I think QR going to take over the world. I mean

because he he at the time was started a company in China in AI uh and he you know he just started the AI business 10 years too early and you know and uh and

and he's like you know I don't believe this whole NFC thing. He's like QR going to take over the world and we should build a QR thing and I was like nobody using QR I never heard of this thing. I

mean this is like a very China thing and I don't think so. And then we kind of just debate it. Then we end off just agree uh on that idea and then we let it go. I mean that could be a another

go. I mean that could be a another billion dollar startup you know in in 2013 and we'll just keep building the coffee business and and then do halfway through and we will launch the coffee

business and we were essentially importing beans from Brazil from you know Indonesia and you know importing packages from China and payment is a is a real issue and my co-founder's name is

is Max Lee the same name is on the OFAC blacklist so wherever that he's sending a payment using his personal name because at that time you know we're still using personal name to sending money as around the world and uh and his

name his payment just got blocked somewhere in the middle because it's going through the swift network and bounced back after two months uh and he just keep complaining to me you know like why I'm sending a payment to like a

Brazil and take like two months for the payment to come back and I really look in under the hood as like what is this swift thing that built in the 1970s and how does swift works right so if you're

sending money from say net west um you to uh a bank in Brazil like a small bank in Brazil that uh you know they not going to have a bilateral relationship essentially they go through the swift

network there's a lot of intermediaries the large global banks that have dominated that kind of relationship so essentially net west will go to barclays barklay go to city city city go to itu

and it will go to this smaller bank in Brazil and it's like everything that the smaller the country it is the the more counterparty in the middle go involved and they charge a higher fee and slow down the process has uh and there's a

more complicated uh compliance process because you know the swift messages only contain 140 characters. You can't really put a lot of information to reduce false positive and that's kind of and I was

just like this just doesn't make any sense. Wh why this thing being existed

sense. Wh why this thing being existed for 50 years and processing trillion dollar every day? Why why can't we fundamentally build a new system to help people to moving money just like you

moving information like data if the data on the internet is real time why money is not essentially it's data it's a ledger right I I I get you Jack but what

happens then because as you said swift created in the 1970s Bartney one of the most concrete uh architectures which we don't really question I mean we still

send swift payments today obviously um well I mean it's still dominating the payment world today so so what happens then you're like hey this is broken we should have another way what do you do

next you I basically look into this I was like uh initially I thought what let's just do pointtooint right if you have like a uh you know people want to sending money

from Australia to Brazil and you have you know people from Brazil want to send into Australia and you can kind of just net it off right and that's the initial idea we raised of our of our seat round

and um but when we actually build the algorithm uh and we realize the amount of volume we needed to to make that take off you know it's like billions of billions right and we're just never

going to work I don't even know how to get you know 100 million volume where do I get the billions and then end of the day we just we raised the money um um

and so so you have the idea hey I want to reinvent the swift network I want to change payments and at that point before you build product, you go and raise money. Uh well, this is another funny

money. Uh well, this is another funny story. So, when I was uh um doing the

story. So, when I was uh um doing the coffee business and I was thinking about starting Airwalls at the time and um one day I just finished work on Friday, I went to the coffee shop to to catch up

with Max uh you know, another co-founder of of of Airwall. And I said, uh you know, like let's you know, res I'm going to resign. Let's just do this seriously.

to resign. Let's just do this seriously.

And I met a girl who is a friend of of Max K called Lucy uh who just resigned from investment as an investment banker and uh and wanted to get married and uh

have a family in Australia and um and I just sort of you know hit it up with her and uh you know she's kind of curious about the coffee business. She's

like oh I want to I want to talk talk to you more about coffee business and maybe I can invest in this coffee business.

And then like we say oh let's just grab dinner right? So we grabbed dinner and

dinner right? So we grabbed dinner and then she's like and then you know blah blah blah coffee business. I was like actually you know what I'm actually going to really stop keep investing this coffee business. I'm going to start a

coffee business. I'm going to start a new business that really revolutionizing crossber payments uh and fundamentally changing how money move around the world. Uh and then she's oh tell me more

world. Uh and then she's oh tell me more about it. And you know because I I was

about it. And you know because I I was like oh I have a the background in FX and I'm an engineer and my co-founder was like a genius engineer. Uh, you

know, I made a pitch. Um, and she's like, "How much money you raising?" I'm

like, "Oh, I'm probably going to raise a million US." Um, and she's like, "What

million US." Um, and she's like, "What about if I give you two million?" You

know, this is a girl that you met for the first time in your life and you only, you know, talked for like less than an hour and then she's like offering you $2 million. And it's like I was like, "For how much of the company?"

He was like, "I'll give you $2 million for 40% of the company."

Um and and I was like just you know initially I was my reaction was should I take it serious but then she's uh uh let's really kind of have a deeper

conversation in uh law school tomorrow.

So law school is the you know from Melbourne. She's because she also went

Melbourne. She's because she also went to University of Melbourne. So for all four of us went to the same college.

She's like let's meet at like 8:00 tomorrow and we we go deep on this. I'm

like okay. Um so and I I was I feel that she's serious. So then we went to the

she's serious. So then we went to the law school on I remember Saturday. This

is like the second day I met her and she basically uh negotiate with me uh for 3 hours by 11:00 and we agreed that she's going to invest a million because I

don't want to her own 40% of company.

She's going to invest a million dollar a $5 million post for 20% of the company.

And her husband was there strongly against it. Um, and then she's like,

against it. Um, and then she's like, "We're gonna use this money to buy houses and we're gonna, you know, have a family. You know, what are you doing?"

family. You know, what are you doing?"

Um, she's like, "I'm I'm king and I I actually wanted to join these guys." And

uh um you know, and uh she just pushed that through and we we just end up agreed uh verbally that we're going to do the deal. Uh the crazy thing is this

is before even I resigned from my full-time job in A&Z. Um, and this is before I even have a company registered.

Then like by Monday I got a tax message from my bank account uh uh from my bank like which is CBA is like you got a million US dollar watt to your personal bank account. Like obviously I give her

bank account. Like obviously I give her the bank account but like I just didn't expect that she would just wire without anything signed. Wow. And so then you

anything signed. Wow. And so then you put the paperwork in place and Yeah. And

I you know that took like months. Yeah.

Yeah. So like literally I got the money um you know three days you know over the weekend after the first time I met her and that end up probably one of the best investment people ever made. I mean,

this is like a a girl that 20, I don't know, 25 years old or 24. Um, and never made any investment. It's her first

investment. Uh, went to, you know, on on

investment. Uh, went to, you know, on on a $9 billion valuation, if you assume a a reasonable dilution, you're turning

a$1 million there into a billion. Yeah.

I mean, it's it's crazy. And I kind of just I'm going to give her some advice if she's listening. Stop investing. you

will never make such a good investment again. You've reached the high. That is

again. You've reached the high. That is

insane. I think she made a few other investment um and then didn't turn out to be good afterwards and I think she stopped investing. That is insane. Yeah.

stopped investing. That is insane. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you get a million wired to your personal account which uh it nowadays would be like, you know, a challenging compliance problem by the way. Um but you have a million words

way. Um but you have a million words your account and you get to work. What

happens then? I resigned. I literally

got the money and uh I resigned the same day.

Dude, I love this. So, you resign, you go to Max and you're like, "Right, let's do this. Let's get to work on our

do this. Let's get to work on our wallets." Yeah. And I there's a fifth

wallets." Yeah. And I there's a fifth co-founder which is Kilock and I used to work together. I basically uh you know

work together. I basically uh you know like kind of forced him to resign because he was like got three kids um you know like lot of obligation uh and he's the best one of the best engineers

I know. Um, and uh, we worked together

I know. Um, and uh, we worked together in Austral National Australia Bank. And

so basically me, Max, and we and Lucy, we just like went to the downstairs of the net building was like, we're not going to leave until you resign. So go

resign. And she was stuck there for two hours talking to his manager, which is also my previous manager. And and I was like, I know that you're going to get returned because you one of the best

engineers they ever had. And um, but dude, we're not going to leave until you resign. what whatever that time is. So

resign. what whatever that time is. So

go go get resigned.

And he did deal with your wife later. We

kind of like literally forced him to to resign. I mean that is nuts. Were you

resign. I mean that is nuts. Were you

nervous at all about leaving the safety net going all in on our wallets? Was

there ever a part of you that was like this is this is real. I'm leaving

security. Yeah. I mean like and also like early days I also went went um like all in right. I just we just live in like a you know a 10 square meter

office. Uh like we we sleep in a

office. Uh like we we sleep in a sleeping bag and we're just working there 20 hours a day writing code. You

slept in a sleeping bag. Yeah. Like me

and Max and Jacob. Three of us literally you know obviously kind of hard for Lucy the girl to fit in. But like you know three of us like would literally uh and Max actually four of us and we would

just like live in the office. Okay. So

we've got a million dollars. You've got

the four of you and now you're just building product at this stage. Correct.

And then raising money because I don't think the million is enough. Yeah. The

million is not going to get you very far. Yeah. So we we raised another $2

far. Yeah. So we we raised another $2 million from a VC in Hong Kong. Got you.

Because all the all the VCs kind of rejected me in Australia. It was only three VC. It's so funny though. Um and

three VC. It's so funny though. Um and

and let's just go to that. Sorry.

Australian VCs rejected you. So what

happens? You go out, you don't have product at this time, but you've got the million dollars from Lucy and so you're like, "Hey, I'm Jack and I'm doing our wallets." What happens? Yeah, basically,

wallets." What happens? Yeah, basically,

um, I went out to pitching the idea of building a new, uh, foreign exchange and money movement network. Um, and a lot of people think I'm crazy. uh and one of

the VCs actually believed in and actually wrote a wanted to write a check and lead the lead around and um but uh I think one of the founders of the VC that

is matrix partners and uh um they give the term sheet they signed and uh they took back uh yeah so they uh basically said I had a call with a founder after

they signed a term sheet and uh they were like oh I don't think this algorithm thing going to work uh and that's not a defensibility anyway And uh yeah, so they basically took it back.

What what deal did they have on the table? Uh that was $10 million um post.

table? Uh that was $10 million um post.

So $2 million, $8 million pre.

My god. I mean, and I I literally like rejected all the other VCs already by that time. And the only one I haven't

that time. And the only one I haven't rejected it is is, you know, goi VC from Hong Kong. And then they end up uh you

Hong Kong. And then they end up uh you know putting a million dollar and plus other smaller VCs that putting the $2 million together. That is a billion

million together. That is a billion dollar pullback. Yes. I mean they should

dollar pullback. Yes. I mean they should have closed the deal as they signed term sheet. Wow. They signed the term sheet.

sheet. Wow. They signed the term sheet.

Yeah. They signed.

Wow. Yeah. That's appalling. That's bad.

Bad. Yeah. Um okay. And so we have So this is like one of the most famous VCs in Asia. Yeah. And the other Australian

in Asia. Yeah. And the other Australian VC said no. Oh yeah. And they didn't even wanted to meet me. They didn't want to meet you? No. So I didn't even get a meeting. I just got an email. Uh so

meeting. I just got an email. Uh so

funny both VCs that reject me. Now it's

on Airwall's cap table. No way. Yes.

They invested in a $6.2 billion valuation. A Square Pack and No. So

valuation. A Square Pack and No. So

Square Pack invested in series A+. Okay.

Essentially that's you know um saved us from dying. So we there's like three

from dying. So we there's like three times that we almost died and then um and that's the second time that we al almost run out of money. Square pack

invested and uh but Blackbird and Atri was the two largest VC in Australia together with you know Scrapad the three biggest VC. Um yeah, but but Erri and uh

biggest VC. Um yeah, but but Erri and uh and Blackbird uh you know re rejected us multiple times and they now joined uh

the right they wrote the largest check um at $6.2 billion uh ever in our history. Whoa. So fun fact, John

history. Whoa. So fun fact, John Henderson, who's at Airree, was the first person to ever believe in me. He

introduced me to like one of my business partners. He's introduced me to my best

partners. He's introduced me to my best friends. Um, so John, I don't think you

friends. Um, so John, I don't think you were probably at Audrey at that point, but I think he was. Well, then you up. No, but like I I think we we

up. No, but like I I think we we had like a you know, I love John and uh we had a great conversation, but you know, I guess for whatever reason, I didn't invest. I don't get it. I'm just

didn't invest. I don't get it. I'm just

going to be totally honest. Like, you

know, you very kindly invested in Project Europe. It's so obvious that But

Project Europe. It's so obvious that But dude, I wouldn't I have a VC now on the side, right? I have a VC called Capital

side, right? I have a VC called Capital 49 and I wouldn't invest in myself. I

think that's crap. Then you're a bad investor cuz if I had spent any time with you, I would have asked you about growing up and your first jobs in a lemon factory and being a restaurant uh

waiter. Nobody ever asked me. That's

waiter. Nobody ever asked me. That's

what's ridiculous. Why did no one ever ask you? Cuz if I heard that, you know

ask you? Cuz if I heard that, you know who asked that? Who? Seriously, uh Yuri Miller from DSC asked me. That's That's

why Yuri is Yuri. But dude, your product doesn't matter. That's crazy. So that's

doesn't matter. That's crazy. So that's

another crazy story. Basically I

basically first time with you meet Yuri and we talked to like I talked to the partner about the business obviously because that's series C and that's straight after I reject the stripe acquisition offer and uh and Yuri

basically didn't ask me anything about my personal uh about my business. He

just asked me a bunch of stuff how I grew up and after that they were like we're going to invest at 1.1 billion $100 million. So I was like literally

$100 million. So I was like literally like within two hours we grade the term.

It's crazy. So but this is what I find astonishing which is like again dude I really don't care what your business is.

No offense. Like you are the person who's going to drive it. You will be for the next 20 years. I can tell whether I'm going to invest in you from hearing about how you think about working in the lemon factory and being on your own in Australia at 16 with no financial

security. Dude, there are so few people

security. Dude, there are so few people who can go through that unwavering hard times and get through it. Yeah.

Like you wouldn't volunteer like to pitch your story that before people ask you. You know what I mean? I get you

you. You know what I mean? I get you totally. No, you have to be but that's

totally. No, you have to be but that's where like the onus is on the question asker. I don't think there's ever such

asker. I don't think there's ever such thing as a bad you doing a bad interview. No one ever gives me a bad

interview. No one ever gives me a bad interview. I give them a bad interview

interview. I give them a bad interview which is me not asking the right questions. Same for a VC. Well, you're

questions. Same for a VC. Well, you're

asking the wrong question now maybe.

But you mentioned Yuri there. Yuri is a astonishing man himself. How was that

meeting? I basically um at that time

meeting? I basically um at that time um you know I think I was um you know

Sequoia and and sort of Tencent and and Mastercard led my series A um and series C we got like because we are we just you know rejected like acquisition offer

from Stripe um you know for close $1.2 two billion dollars and that was a big thing and we got term sheet from like Hugh House from Goldman uh wanted to

lead you know a billion dollar round and the term was not the best and um and Neil Shen from uh you know Seoa

China at the time and uh basically don't want me to take the deal because he's the one that recommend me not to take the stripe deal. he still said, you know, you should just make the right decision for yourself and uh for the

company. And uh Neil Shen introduced me

company. And uh Neil Shen introduced me to two companies. Uh he introduced me to John Lingro from DST uh and he

introduced me to uh Scott uh from Tiger.

Um uh I think uh you know I had a chat with both and DST end up leading the round.

How was the meeting with Yuri? Was it a was it a cool meeting? You mentioned him asking. I mean it's it's a weird

asking. I mean it's it's a weird meeting. I mean, imagine you are serious

meeting. I mean, imagine you are serious C. You raise as above a billion dollar

C. You raise as above a billion dollar and all you really care about is how you grow up. It's kind of weird, right? And

grow up. It's kind of weird, right? And

they give you a like literally a verbal term sheet on the spot. It's also kind of weird. Again, I I don't know if it is

of weird. Again, I I don't know if it is when you think about like the like a billion. I've never the true

billion. I've never the true generational defining companies are founderled. You know, we have Bailey

founderled. You know, we have Bailey Gford on the show and of their top 10 positions, nine of the best companies in terms of performance are founderled. If

that is the case, 90% of the best performers are founder led. We're only

here, Jack. The other thing that you both know, we both know now as investors, a billion dollars does not cut it. $10 billion is what we need for

cut it. $10 billion is what we need for this venture model to work. If that's

the case and their founder led, I I don't care about your pricing this quarter or your growth this quarter. I

care about you. So, I I I don't I'm not Yeah. I mean, I just saw this crazy

Yeah. I mean, I just saw this crazy people willing to bet on people at that point at billion dollar valuation.

Yuri's a legend. Um, so I I do just want to go back and take it chronologically because it's such a cool story. Okay, so

we we the matrix term sheet was pulled and we get some other VCs in. Cool. What

happens then? Like when does first product go out? When do we get product?

So the the the money we raised from the first $3 million from Lucy, the other VCs really kind of drying up that when we try to build this peer-to-peer algorithm and which never going to work

and we kind of know that and and then we were like, oh, we need like basically doing the hard way. we really need plug our FX engine to a interbank liquidity.

um you know whether the Goldman or GP or like um obviously Goldman or GP not going to take my course and uh and we we kind of need to build a getting licenses everywhere around the world uh you know

connect to the local clearing infrastructure one by one you know it's going to be like a hard but that seems the the only way we can do it uh and we

basically pivoted at that point that um we it's cold called mccori um um and uh I I I literally

um 8:00 a.m. I remember then I co called a guy and who took like overnight shift in McCory to cover the markets because FX is 24 by7 24 by five and a half

markets right um and Tom took the call and from a Corey he's like a junior guy can only work on like a night shift at a time and he was about to finish work at

8 and he took my call and somehow I mean I pitched him he got him excited uh and he's willing to invest a whole team of engineers from a coral bank to connect

me uh to the interbank market so that I able to get sub you know two basis point of liquidity uh from a cost point of view so I can even build my FX engine by

streaming prices and uh you know for first first couple years our FX price was literally trading back to back to McCori uh because normally for the interbank liquidity you can't trade you

know sub half a million or million bucks right so that um that's how you kind of trade uh on on the interbank And I able to convince McCory to build me a product

that you can even trade $20 at a you know two basis point cost price. Wow. Uh

and then that code worked. I remember

even like after um series A when we raised $13 million from Sequoia and Tencent and stuff and Mastercard I went to pitch to Blay a friend I used to work

together. Uh I met him in Hong Kong and

together. Uh I met him in Hong Kong and I sit in one side of the boardroom uh which is like a you know five meter long you know table. He want to sit on the

other side of the boardroom and I was like dude what is happening? And I made a pitch. He's like oh you know come to

a pitch. He's like oh you know come to talk to me when you have like a billion volume.

That's helpful. Yeah that's helpful. I'm

like dude like uh well now you know, Buckley is is a great partner, but, you know, we only start working together when I have like $10 billion volume or something, you know. Uh, and

clearly that, you know, and the Tom the guy who took Mark Coco now is the head of distribution, uh, and McCory. A

phenomenal pick from him. Okay. And so,

we have that. Do we have product market fit pretty much straight away post that?

No. Uh, and I got the FX engine, build it out, and I need like a bunch of payment rails. So I connect to a bunch

payment rails. So I connect to a bunch of you know aggregators initially because I need the coverage and then I even connect to currency cloud who ultimately become a competitor later. Um

essentially I connect to a bunch of competitors ultimately to get me the coverage that of the network and uh and I uh and I have the product going but in terms of the customer we want to target

to we initially targeting likememes in Australia. Um and the we just never

Australia. Um and the we just never really figured out what the product is.

We built like an invoicing product to allow theme to sell around the world to get paid through a payment link. Um, and

then by kind of integrating with a bunch of payment service providers and we just never really get product market fit on that product. It's because the

that product. It's because the acquisition is too high of SMBs and we never really got product market fit. Uh,

at that point um, uh, we kind of know we need to raise more money otherwise we're going to be dead. So we basically went to raise money from SEOA and Tencent.

Oh, that with a product we we know it's going to fail.

What happens? So, basically, I have a product that working, right? I know it's uh not going to have product market fit, but I I need more money to figure out what the product market fit is. And I

basically went to pitch for Sequoia and Tencent and uh and uh and then one of the idea is actually to pivoted the product to API product to servicing Tencent to kind of power VC pay global

settlement. So you know when Chinese

settlement. So you know when Chinese tourists come to London airport they will pay using uh VHD you know uh and and and some will settle the merchants doing the FX on the back of that. Uh and

we were thinking we can do a lot better over the Swift network and we can do a lot better than the 10 century department and um the idea is to maybe that's opportunity to pivot and

leveraging 10 cents volume to grow the business. Uh and then knowing that the

business. Uh and then knowing that the theme product probably gonna fail uh because we haven't we only got like a hundred customers by that time. Um and

and we were raising at uh $60 million valuation uh with no revenue. Um and but how does that work? You you know that this isn't working. You know that it's

not going to work and you're going to have to figure it out. And so you you go to Sequoia and you pitch what ideas or well I pitched the vision I pitched the vision of building the largest payment

network in the world alternative to swift and that fundamental infrastructure going to be so important um and that's

going to take years to build uh that's why we don't have any revenue. How did

it go? How did the meetings go? And then

obviously I pitched uh Tencent at the same time and I told Sequoa Tens might want to lead the round and kind of play the you know the kind of competition game and and Seoia be like yeah if

Tencent's like co-leading the round we're in but then like Tencent did all the IC and everything past RC. Um and uh at one point I was super happy this is

going to be done.

Um and uh the founder of Tencent said uh you know just go through like a normal corporate approval process and the founder of Tensen didn't approve

uh after three months process ICO pass uh you know he just basically is like because the the idea is that this is going to help Tencent to do global you

know Vap settlement uh and then Pony the founder was like why can't we build oursel internally I mean like why like a 10 people startup can do a better job than than us, you know, like we have,

you know, hundreds of of of thousands of engineers and uh uh and then the investment team didn't know what to say.

So what happened? So basically that was just stalled. The deal was stalled and

just stalled. The deal was stalled and Seoia was not willing to invest until Tencent kind of make a decision. Uh and

I basically running out of money and uh and the Tens investment team was just super helpful. They were like you have

super helpful. They were like you have one opportunity to pitch to either the president uh Martin Lau or James Mitchell the chief strategy officer.

These are the two people can convince uh the founder of Tencent to invest to kind of basically approve the deal and I basically waited for almost three months to able to have a time slot to meet with

with James and and Martin. How did that go? And I remember like I we basically

go? And I remember like I we basically met with James Mitchell in in Hong Kong in u 5th of January 2017. And I told my team, you know, this would be the most

important meeting of my life. Uh and I test the product everything until like 3:00 a.m. and I kind of told my CTO, you

3:00 a.m. and I kind of told my CTO, you know, nothing can go wrong during the during the meeting. I went to pitch and it's so funny that James actually was at Goldman before and he did the uh RPO

PayPal and he remember uh majority of the revenue of PayPal actually coming from crossber payment. Um and you know he kind of didn't really need me to convince him that much and he kind of

sort of convinced him this is like a large enough market and this is a good guy to kind of chasing the opportunity.

Um and the end he's like oh why don't I just take a look at your product. I was

like yeah let's do that. and I demoing the invoicing product which I know gonna fail. Uh not going to have product

fail. Uh not going to have product market fail but but it's a working product right it's a prototype leveraging the same the infrastructure is the same um and I got a 404 on the

spot when I clicked the pay button uh and my w my my face just went like blue uh and uh and I I dodged it. I was like I was like maybe the link was blocked by

the tensen firewall. I mean maybe it is maybe it's

firewall. I mean maybe it is maybe it's not. I mean we never actually found it

not. I mean we never actually found it out because at that time the the PSP we are using under the hood also has some bugs you know we didn't know if it's the error will caused by the underlying PSP

was all caused by really the tens firewall we never we never know and he loved it what happened with that he just like oh you know doesn't matter um it is what it is and then he actually went

ahead and I thought it's like a gone the deal but he actually went to commence pony to invest so we got the investment that day after that. Wow. And then

obviously uh you know Sequoia and then Mastercard also came in with the with with 10 cent. Do you mind that Sequoa were like, "Oh, we'll only invest with 10 cent." Like I like investors who are

10 cent." Like I like investors who are conviction driven. I don't give a

conviction driven. I don't give a who's investing with me. I'm investing

because I love Jack. Well, I mean this is series A, right? This is not seed round. This is series A. Normally people

round. This is series A. Normally people

will have product market fit. I have

zero revenue. So the idea was that Tencent going to give me revenue and Mastercard was also in around and Mastercard supposed to give me revenue as well. So Sequoa's like revenue conviction are based on two the

other investor which is Tencent and Moscar supposed to be the two biggest largest customer for us. Was that the first near-death experience that you

mentioned earlier?

Um I mean that's the I would say the second one because the first one was um um the um you know the VC that kind

of supposed to invest uh and you know together with Lucy uh they didn't wire the money I mean until like five months later after they signed the term sheet.

So they were basically like show me the demo show me the demo before they wire the money. I mean this is like 2015 so

the money. I mean this is like 2015 so the market is a bit I don't I think you know it would be a bad thing for any VC to do that today. It is but it's not that long ago. It's only 9 years ago. I

I agree with you totally but it's not 20 years ago. I bought out that investor in

years ago. I bought out that investor in this round by the way. I'm very happy about it.

Yeah I I know that investor that's a good one to buy out. Um so yes completely. Okay. So we raised this

completely. Okay. So we raised this money. We've got 10 cent. We've got

money. We've got 10 cent. We've got

Moscow. We've got Square. This is the dream cap table. Now, does it just go off to the races then? Like, is

it like rocket ship from there? No. Uh,

and I said, I mean, we we're supposed to have uh, you know, Mastercard and Tencent as a customer. The Tensent deal took me three years after that point. Uh, it's a big

corporate, right? It's just take a long

corporate, right? It's just take a long time. Uh, and it's the same thing from

time. Uh, and it's the same thing from the uh, the the VChat pay department.

They were like, why can't we build oursel? So they end up built like

oursel? So they end up built like essentially what airws build themselves uh and only using us as one of the liquidity providers. So that was really

liquidity providers. So that was really not the product we want to sell to them.

Um and we just become like a one of the vendors they have uh together with JP Morgan and um you know other liquidity providers and uh and Mascar supposed to give us a billion dollar volume from the

Mascar SM product but we got less than a million dollar uh and it's just so much high-risk transaction at a time we had to like literally offboard that uh literally offboard that part of the the

the business. So when does it start to

the business. So when does it start to go really well Jack? Uh so this is like essentially this is like the third year I'm starting the company like 2015 started like I started bit late like

December 2015 so 2016 the the peer-to-peer algorithm failed uh you know in 2017 I sort of the invoing also

in failed in 2017 and 2017 I raised the money from the series A and started pivoting the product to a API driven product to sell to large enterprises uh

for kind of global money movement uh and then Hen and Moscar supposed to be the customer. Uh and we build a product for

customer. Uh and we build a product for a whole year. Uh we end up not getting any customers and we're running out of money again because we were very aggressive hinging and uh so by end of

2017 we also running out of money. Um

and uh that's where Squarepack came in.

So I started the business um one of the inspirations is because of the founder of Square and he also one of the most famous entrepreneur in Australia. he

started the the the one of the biggest tech company in Australia uh called sik.com.eu which is like the largest job

sik.com.eu which is like the largest job marketplace uh in the world at one point and uh you know he he was the the idol of any uh entrepreneur in Australia,

right? So I basic admired him like for a

right? So I basic admired him like for a long time and Paul reached out said you know we like to have a conversation and uh you know we really kind of had a great conversation he liked the vision

and mission of the company um and he end up leading a seriously extension um uh another $6 million essentially give us the bracing room to really take take off

the business and that was on the vision too to build a alternative uh to Swift, the largest global payment on the third iteration.

I mean that to be fair that is amazing.

I mean like again suspending disbelief.

You're looking back now at a track record of the first didn't work, the second didn't work, the third didn't work, but we're still going to do this.

So what happens then? We raise the 6 million more. Yeah. And uh and that we

million more. Yeah. And uh and that we able to uh sell to other uh businesses other than Tencent and Mastercard like a lot of tech companies basically and they

started adopting started off and that we got like a few companies that sending tuition payment around the world and they are massive, right? So, we went from zero to a billion dollar transaction volume within like nine

months. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Pause.

months. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Pause.

What? 2017 this is 20 this is January 2018 we on boarded that customer and 20 and January 2018 we also on boarded Shien.

So um and you know I wish I have investor she at the time and they were like a serious B company uh and I just really just have these two massive

customers that I'm riding on top them go global. Wow. Okay. So you had these two

global. Wow. Okay. So you had these two mega unicorns just ripping and they are driving your zero to a billion. Yeah. I

remember like one day she basically need to pay suppliers in China and um they gave us $20 million and our uh partner in China essentially was a supplier for

Shien and they basically saying that volume got lost to a customer between two of their customers right so from Shien using them directly to using us and we still using them under the hood right but obviously we do the FX and

they just do the last mile payment because they have the license in China we didn't and uh they were like No, we're not going to do it. We're

literally gonna turn your reals off and we're going to keep shi uh and so I basically have 48 hours to integrate with a new partner uh that

able to pay into China and otherwise I going to you know up my biggest customer or the only customer at that time. So you call up a new partner in

time. So you call up a new partner in your I call new partner I was like let's fix out the legal contract later. Let's

go live on Sunday night. So we basically start integration on Friday night, worked 40 hours straight, went live on Sunday night.

Jack, this whole conversation has been a continuation of literally me getting goosebumps at you having these like 48 hours to save a sheen contract, which is a lifeblood of the business at that

point. Yeah. Who is kind of 90% of the

point. Yeah. Who is kind of 90% of the business at a time. Okay. And so we do the zero to a billion and now we're like we have a real real business. Correct.

Yeah. This is like by end of 2018 we have a real business. We have not a lot.

We have probably like a 100 customer but all kind of pretty big customers. And so

then we go out and raise more money. Uh

no before that I literally I started taking off in January by April. Um and

then Tencent and Mascar Tencent and Sakoya said we want to lead another round.

So they basically lead a a $400 uh like at a $400 million pre uh they invest $80 million. So a 400 $480 million post.

million. So a 400 $480 million post.

Wow. So they basically but at that time the business have no revenue still like a very little revenue but the volume is like doubling tripling every month. Wow.

Did you get the question of commoditization?

Um yeah, so I do, but I think um you know like I just some of the greatest fintech investors missed Stripe because they were like oh it's going to be a race to the bottom on price and actually yeah but because we really went deep

onto the infrastructure right you know at that time we still using a lot of PSPs like currency cloud etc to get the coverage but we really kind of started to getting licenses in Australia in Hong

Kong in the UK in the US and and we're going to we're going to have a deep regulatory mode and and then we basically the only provider in APAC at that time. So then maybe some other

that time. So then maybe some other player going to come out but at that time there was no competition to do what we do in the entire Asia Pacific. Um and

um and we had like all the big investors backing us, right? And we got the series B at a ridiculous valuation. Um again

from from the same investor, but we added like a bunch of other investors. Um and uh literally like you

investors. Um and uh literally like you know imagine you from like a near death in sort of January 2018 to like then in

October 2018 Stripe reached out to Bios.

Stripe reached out to BYU. How does that work? Does John and Patrick send you a

work? Does John and Patrick send you a DM on Twitter? What does that look like?

Uh uh will Gabri the CFO at that time uh I think now he's CPO he um reached out Susoya um and uh he said just want another have a conversation to see what you guys up

to. Uh and obviously like I'm like a

to. Uh and obviously like I'm like a huge admire of Stripe, right? So

everything tech out there be like you know Stripe is the golden standard of of developer friendly APIs and and documentation and I'm a I'm a huge fan of what Stripe and and John have built

and I was like oh if I ever get a chance to talk to Stripe yeah I'm all in to learn right um the conversation with Will went really well and uh and um then

all of a sudden that Patrick Rich out wanted to catch up um and he uh you know at that time uh we were literally setting up a developer uh hop in in

Shanghai and he he said he will fly to Shanghai to see me. Yeah. So he went fly to Shanghai to literally to to see see me and my co-founder and uh we spent a

whole day together. He flew to Shanghai.

Yeah. He flew to Shanghai probably the first time he he went to Shanghai or second time I don't remember but uh yeah he flew to Shanghai. How was the day together?

uh we went through the product in the morning and we just talked the whole vision about the company in the future.

um that at that time we kind of thinking about going to build uh merchant acquiring essentially competing with stripe because you know stripe was not really an APAC at the time and uh um you

know we already built the payout rails and FX and the payin is just a natural evolution of connecting the end to end uh part of the platform because you know all the all our customers that paying

out to you know contractors developers uh suppliers tuitions around the world that need pay in right they process online payment and offline payments and uh and I we kind of have to to do that.

Um and then Patrick basically um said, "Oh, we going to build pay out because you know we have all these payins around the world and we need to do payout and we haven't built anything." He's like,

you know, kind of makes sense. We either

sort of work together or maybe we should buy you guys. Um, and I was like kind of weird, you know, like you have the best

fintech company in the world that talk about potentially going to buy you and you literally just like one year in the business. I mean, obviously we started

business. I mean, obviously we started for more than three and a half years at a time, but it's like the real product market fit only been like 10 months, you know, like you really started to even

getting product market fit. Um, so what happens then? I said we should work

happens then? I said we should work together or we should buy you. What do

you say? He said uh you know like you know let's just spend more time together. So he started this whole

together. So he started this whole documentation on Google sheet and just like 10 20 pages long and asked me to make comments. So like I make comment and we

comments. So like I make comment and we just worked out I was like wow the the the vision of the company in the next decade is kind of very much the same. We

all wanted to build AWS or financial services.

Um and and obviously Stripe is much much ahead of us. Um and but this is before co I mean Stripe is like a $9 million $9 billion company. It's very similar to

billion company. It's very similar to the scale of airwallers today. Um and um and I kind of really liked Patrick and it's like it was like this guy is so

smart. He's like much smarter than me.

smart. He's like much smarter than me.

Can I ask you what makes him so smart?

The Collisons are always hailed as like you know bluntly geniuses. What do you think makes him so smart from ideiating with him, from working with him on a Google doc? Um, I mean it's not that the

Google doc? Um, I mean it's not that the Google doc that make me think that he's smart. He's just like so intellectually

smart. He's just like so intellectually honest about everything and also he's like able to go deep in multiple dimensions. you know he's like he read

dimensions. you know he's like he read in he read about China history you know he knows China history more than me and he knows about quantum physics he knows

uh you know biology he knows uh you know all this like field that I have never like gone into and he's able to talk about it for you know hours and um and

I'm just like how can one person able to go deep in multiple dimensions right I'm like just you know if you talk about fintech I think I'm as good as as as as these guys, right? But if you're just

talking about like biology uh or or quantum physics or China history, I mean, like I'm a Chinese. I

feel ashamed that he knows more China history than me. Um and you know, just like how can you read so many books and just understand it so much? It's like

before AI, you know. So take me to the one how do they table a $1.2 billion offer? So essentially it's like a comp

offer? So essentially it's like a comp complicated deal construct. essentially

is 800 million on the cap table and $350 million to me and my co-founders and I think it's $50 million um or I think $25 million to the to the to the employees

of the core employees. Um so so like close to 1.2 so like 1.7 uh 1.11 175 or something. What happens then? You sit

something. What happens then? You sit

down with your co-founders. How does

that conversation go?

Um and we he invited us to San Francisco and we had a great conversation. I kind

of at that time I'm kind of almost get convinced and he sent his whole team to Melbourne. Uh they did like a whole week

Melbourne. Uh they did like a whole week of due diligence with like all the senior people uh from Stripe. Um and uh you know I I met with Claire the SEO at

the time and um uh I met with the whole team. I was really impressed and uh I

team. I was really impressed and uh I kind of basically said I think we're going to do it uh verbally and um but I was you know like it just kind of you

know are you really going to do it on the back of your mind and I fly back to Melbourne and I was walking in San Francisco two weeks and try to figure it out. I couldn't figure it out. Uh I mean

out. I couldn't figure it out. Uh I mean I was like 70% kind of I'm I'm wanted to do it but like this this is just like this like voice in my head is like are you going to do it? how you going to do

it ultimately be like like okay so if I sold the business I was uh I think 34 at a time 33 at a time and um

um and what I mean it's going to five year lock up right so I'll be 40 or close to 40 when I finish the lock up and what can I do like a 38 39 year old

can I be blunt how much money would you have made from the deal if I know Strive gonna get to 100 billion I mean I would probably made like at least $3 billion. Um,

billion. Um, and you know, like it's just that um, you know, at that time, you know, Strive was going to raise the the 20

billion dollar round and um, and we we know that we probably can raise another round and at a billion uh, or more.

Um, you know, was it wasn't really a valuation. was like financial was not

valuation. was like financial was not really what I've been thinking about. So

So why did you not I grew up in I kind of grew up in Australia. I also lived a very um I I

Australia. I also lived a very um I I didn't live in a very luxury lifestyle, right? So I didn't need any money. Uh

right? So I didn't need any money. Uh

you know, I mean this is not London, remember? Like this is Melbourne. Like

remember? Like this is Melbourne. Like

you know, you can't there's no even like high-end shops, right? Billionaires and

uh anyone that go just go to the same supermarket. Um, so it's a it's a very

supermarket. Um, so it's a it's a very sort of socialized society and uh you know I think with like 200 grand you can live a pretty good life and I didn't

know what to do with the money anyway and and that's not what I actually thought about at the time and I really thought about is what going to make me happy and I went back to Melbourne asked

my co-owners like let's just vote right because I really can't figure it out.

Um, and Lucy said, I mean, you know, Lucy is like, I don't really care because I, uh, my family is is, you know, is wealthy and I don't need more money. Um, I think I should I really

money. Um, I think I should I really enjoy it. I think we should keep

enjoy it. I think we should keep building. Uh, my CTO, Jacob, is like,

building. Uh, my CTO, Jacob, is like, uh, you know, it's really up to you, Jack. I mean, this is your mission, your

Jack. I mean, this is your mission, your vision, and we're all here to help you, and then ultimately it's your call. And

Max is like, you know, I I think I'm okay to sell. I mean like a that's a lot of money. Good old Max. And uh uh and

of money. Good old Max. And uh uh and then we were like we couldn't decide it.

And we asked our senior leadership team to vote like surprisingly only one people want us to sell like like literally like 90% of people said you know they they

think we can build a bigger business and uh so you fired that one person. Well

that person joined Stripe even worse.

No. Yes. That's the whole story. Yeah. I

mean, we all kind of tried to hire her afterwards and I kind of sued her and that was and he sued me, she sued me.

That was a whole complicated story. Um,

story. Um, that vote was a very telling sign, wasn't it? Yeah. And uh um I mean it's

wasn't it? Yeah. And uh um I mean it's not like I don't think she's that great anyway. So, uh, it's it's kind of fine,

anyway. So, uh, it's it's kind of fine, but just she has so much proprietary knowledge of of our network and we were worried that she's going to give it away

to to Stripe. But, uh, you know, that's a that's a long story. Um, and yeah, I mean, that's really I went back to

Melbourne and just changed my mind. I I

was like, I don't think I want to, you know, like be doing another startup when we're 38. I think I'm going to give it a shot

38. I think I'm going to give it a shot on this one and put all my life into it and that's it. So, one thing that really inspired me from talking and spending

time with Patrick is that I said, "Oh, you know, like what's the what's the long-term thing for Stripe or for yourself? Are you going to be here

yourself? Are you going to be here forever or blah blah blah?" Um, and then Patrick just like said to me that he's going to build Stripe for the next 20,

30, 40 years. And I've just never heard like a founder like told me like people would dedicate their entire life to building a business. And that was so

kind of inspiring to me. I'm like that's what I want to do. You know, it'll build a real uh economic infrastructure that changed the world that impacting

millions of businesses uh growing on the internet or growing globally.

So, we turned that down and we're now back to business, baby. We need to scale volume. We have Sheen and we have this

volume. We have Sheen and we have this other large provider. Is it now like just all hands to the pump? Scale,

scale, scale. Yeah. And we got the money from DST who got another $100 million and a bunch of other investor. when you

raise $100 million and you suddenly have like quite a lot of money is it difficult in terms of constraints that are now removed and just spending and I didn't understand what that means at the

time I don't know what is financial discipline so I don't have a budget I'm just like hire as fast as

possible just just blow it all out and um and I I and then I realized at one point that we're running out of money like I was like yeah you didn't have a

budget. Yeah. And we uh we went from

budget. Yeah. And we uh we went from like I think like 100 something people to like 600 700 people like in a

year. And uh and then I realized uh our

year. And uh and then I realized uh our volume grow but our revenue didn't grow as fast and uh um we kind of really need

to raise another round and uh we also the vision kind of start evolved after seriously after rejecting Stripe offer.

I'm like okay we're going to competing um and long term and uh you know I mean obviously Strap is a payment lab business uh we are banking lab business um but at that time we're not a we're

not a a banking business yet right we're just like a global money movement infrastructure we were like okay we need to become a true uh global new bank and then we need to build our card issuing infrastructure so we can issue corporate

card we need to build merchant acquiring infrastructure so we can uh handle the the payment side of the the um the money flow as well. So we basically need to

evolve from a single product company to a multi-product company end to end platform with infrastructure and software to supporting uh global

businesses. I basically put most of the

businesses. I basically put most of the money out of the 100 million to build this new product and not investing in the

existing product. Uh and that kind of is

existing product. Uh and that kind of is the biggest bet I made. essentially

you've investing like more than half the money you raised onto the product that you're not going to have any revenue for the next three four years. Um did that not strike you as alarming at the time?

Well, we kind of realized once we sort of reject the stable offer and ultimately we're going to compete as kind of scares me um that if I don't

invest fast enough ultimately, you know, we just don't have a role to play uh anymore. So, it was the right thing to

anymore. So, it was the right thing to make those investments. Well, we kind of did two things. we went all into international expansion. So we start

international expansion. So we start opening offices in the UK, in the US and like everywhere and that kind of to be a disaster because we kind of didn't have product market fit in any of these

places. Um and uh and then that

places. Um and uh and then that international expansion basically just failed. Uh and it was because of product

failed. Uh and it was because of product market fit. Yeah, we our we not hiring

market fit. Yeah, we our we not hiring fast enough. Our we not building product

fast enough. Our we not building product enough. We don't have like a a real

enough. We don't have like a a real product in the UK but we hired a bunch of teams here. How long does it take you to realize that the international expansion not working? Roll back. Pretty

quick. I mean, you just don't have any revenue because nobody going to buy your product. So, six months later, you're

product. So, six months later, you're like, uh-uh, cut. Yeah, I didn't cut. I

basically keep going and uh because we had an infrastructure here, we needed people to manage the infrastructure and we keep trying. Um, a lot of the people I hired like are my friends. So, you

just like persisted through Yeah. to

product market fit in these geographies.

Yeah. It took me three years to get PMF in the UK. Wow, that's a lot of money.

Uh, well, I mean, it's a small team. Um,

and then we also train a lot of people.

So, that was the mistake I made. Um,

well, when you say that was a mistake he made, what was that mistake? Just bad

hiring. I think we also didn't have the product. I think we just hired too

product. I think we just hired too early. And also like we don't really

early. And also like we don't really know what sort of people to hire. It's

kind of a combination of both. What do

you mean you don't know what sort of people to hire? I'm a product in engineer. I really know no idea how to

engineer. I really know no idea how to build a commercial organization and um and all we did is selling to large enterprises right but we have a lot of

VC network in APAC and when I come to UK I don't have the VC network I don't really know how to sell to large enterprises I don't have any VC network here no one open the door for me and we

just couldn't really sell the product that the vision really evolved from like a single product company to a multi-product company but that evolved took three and a half years to get the initial product market fit just during

that three and a half years we are too aggressive in international expansion while we don't have a good product and so we need more money. Yes.

And at this point our last round was the 1.1 with DST. Yeah. What happens? And

we're running out of money again. Great.

Okay. Um and uh are you nervous when you're running out of money? Yeah. And

uh and I'm at Soft Bank. Uh and I was like okay. So Sband was the gold team

like okay. So Sband was the gold team VC. Um and this is 2021. This is 2019.

VC. Um and this is 2021. This is 2019.

Okay. And I fly all the way to London in uh November like October 21 and Soft Bank going to sorry October 2019 and

Soft Bank going to uh lead around. Um

and this we work stuff happened and we were like and they stopped investing and they they kind of did all the work but you know the the partner going to invest in us got fired.

Um and uh I literally in a in a in a um a situation we're going to we're going to kind of die again if I not able to raise money.

What happens then? Um so basically I would convince existing investor to give me a lifeline a convertible nodes. Uh so

DST and Tencent let the the convertible nodes. Wow. Uh so we raised uh uh you

nodes. Wow. Uh so we raised uh uh you know like essentially uh I think 70 to $100 million like kind of a convertible but the idea is that we able to raise

another another round straight after that and I need to find an alternative to to softbank um and uh and hosia is

the answer uh so Ian from ho that led our series D to kind of um you know get us going but the funny thing is that uh

co happened in20 20. So when we kind of uh signing the spa, I was you know because we have a business in China, we know that the virus is taking off and

you know this is like February 2020. Um and we were like literally

2020. Um and we were like literally going through this due diligence stuff and and everyone sort of the investors start asking me what is this co thing?

Um I didn't know how how to answer the question because I was like this is going to be really really bad and I can't say that. You knew I I knew it's really really bad because I have employees in China and rather like shut

down the whole city and all this crazy stuff. Um I even wrote a tax message to

stuff. Um I even wrote a tax message to the prime minister of Australia to shut the border from China. But uh um but it just um keep

China. But uh um but it just um keep going and uh I remember that the week that the day we actually the week we actually closing the series D um the the

US stock market tanked more than 10% three times. This is the first time ever

three times. This is the first time ever happened in the US history. So the

market went down 30%. I called Neil Shen. Um and I was like do you think Ian

Shen. Um and I was like do you think Ian gonna close and would you close if you are in this situation? Uh and Neil told me he's really not sure. He's like no

one would know in this situation. It's

like never happened before. I wasn't

sure. Um and nobody was sure. Um and uh to to the credit of Ian, I mean Ian closed And obviously like what what was that round? That was uh I think 1.7 this

that round? That was uh I think 1.7 this is like the the the round after the convertible. So the all the people that

convertible. So the all the people that invest in a convertible get converted to the $1.7 billion round. $1.7 billion.

How big was the jack? I think it was 150. Uh obviously like half the through

150. Uh obviously like half the through the existing and Ian put in like 75 or $80 million. How was Ian? Like he's very

$80 million. How was Ian? Like he's very behind the scenes. He's very discreet.

He is I mean Hedosophia is a a very secretive fund and we wouldn't allowed to put a PR using the Hosophia name. So

you would see a bunch of investor led a series D but Hosophia was not named. Uh

I think they changed the policy now.

Yeah they have done much more public.

Yeah and they a little bit more public now and uh but yeah I you know I think uh Ian sit on my board and he's one of the largest investor and not many people know about it. Has he been a great board

member? Yeah. Um I mean he's been

member? Yeah. Um I mean he's been investing the company from 2019 uh for like five six round after that.

He just keep doubling down. So I think we're probably one of the largest investment of Hidosia in terms of dollar amount. So you close that. We get going

amount. So you close that. We get going again. Yes. We keep plowing away at

again. Yes. We keep plowing away at these international markets. We are

relentless bashing product market fit in them and we fix it. It

starts looking really good. When does

the business really start humming? Uh I

mean 2020 obviously the during co uh our revenue went half that's why I wasn't sure whether whether they're going to because like half our revenue is from tuition and uh and travel right and all

this tuition what's your revenue at that point um I think 2019 we were like $20 million 2019 you were $20 million what was I

think we went let me just think about again so we went from like scrub acquisition at that time we for only $2 million in 2018. So we went $10 million

in 2019. So we five times the revenue in

in 2019. So we five times the revenue in 2019. So 10 million. Then 2020 we had 20

2019. So 10 million. Then 2020 we had 20 million.

21 uh 21 that we went more than doubled again. Wow. In co

again. Wow. In co

uh yeah uh 2020 we doubled right. So

that's where co and 2021 we more than doubled. kind of 2.5x.

doubled. kind of 2.5x.

Okay. Two 2 million in revenue when Stripe did the 1.2 billion. Yeah.

And then crazy. I said no. No, no, no. I

mean, now you look like a genius, but you know, if I was a VC on your board, then I would I would be supportive if you wanted to sell.

Well, I mean from a Sequoia point of view that they invested 450 or 480. I

do. I do. And it's like only for like three months and you know they made just under double the money because 800 million on the cap table, right? I dude

I totally get it does not do much for them in that respect and the fund size.

Totally. Okay. So we closed the headers.

We're off to the races. What happens

now? Uh then CO happened, right? So that

we lost half our revenue uh and we were really figuring out what to do. Um and

uh we at that time we start getting market part of market fit on the on the SMB banking part. You know we built the infrastructure uh we started to issuing corporate card

uh we start getting the the merchant acquiring thing kind of build it out but ultimately launch in 2021. Uh but the kind of the foundation

2021. Uh but the kind of the foundation of a global bank start to evolve. Uh so

we basically went from I was the first three four years of just basically building the best money movement infrastructure in the world to build the next generation of a global

bank right build the future of a global banking uh and that obviously took a lot of money and a lot of got to bet on this new product that only start generating

revenue from 2022. So from 2019 2020 2021 there's no revenue for all this new product only from 2022 they start generating revenue with the board putting pressure on you because there's a lot of result well the business still

doubling every year from the existing product um and uh and then 2021 happened um and I just got investor knock on the

door every single day right so grand oaks led around in January 2021 for 2.6 six billion the long pilot around uh in

uh June July at 4 billion. Dude, I'm not being rude. Do you have any of the

being rude. Do you have any of the company left? Like this is a lot of

company left? Like this is a lot of funding rounds. Yeah, we uh we raised

funding rounds. Yeah, we uh we raised $400 million in 2021. Like the valuation went from 1.7 to five and a half. Every like every month I'm raising

half. Every like every month I'm raising money basically. like then you raised

money basically. like then you raised like three round and end of 2021 soft bank was talking to me about you know leading a billion dollar round and obviously we didn't you know entertain that conversation do you not worry about

the dilution um at that time I know the vision is really big um and you know how much capital required to build a global bank

right it's going to be in a balance and I just want to raise as much money as I can uh and obviously I only raised like a hundred at at five and a

half. Um I should have raised like you

half. Um I should have raised like you know more at that time but uh I think air wallets would be dead without 2021 right we raised $400 million we really

well capitalized the business keep doubling and we had enough money um just to keep going and obviously we raised a flat round in 2022 because at that time we were

burning close to $200 million a year and we wasn't really sure like how long we're going to lost and but we weren't profitable in 23 so just and I just realized that we can just keep growing

the business. We keep d and then even in

the business. We keep d and then even in 22 23 we keep doubling the business and we keep doubling the business while our headcount is not growing. So we never

did a layoff. Um and we able to continue to grow the business uh more than 100%.

So we basically never grow below 100% from 2015 to um 2023.

Never grew below 100%. Yeah. For eight

years straight. Uh,

And we still growing 90% yearon year. Uh, last quarter. You grew 90%

year. Uh, last quarter. You grew 90% last quarter. Yeah. We went to like uh

last quarter. Yeah. We went to like uh $500 million AR in August last year, then hit like 600 in November and 700 um

in sort of January and Feb. Um, and the business is just, you know, can still grow insanely fast.

700 in January, Feb. I'm about to say a bold statement given the volatility that we have within markets. If I project forward to end of year revenues, your end of year revenues at this rate is

like 900 more than a billion. More than

a billion. Why did you do a deal at 9 billion? 9x is is a public markets

billion? 9x is is a public markets multiple. Well, we raised around as 6.2

multiple. Well, we raised around as 6.2 like literally when announced, you know, last week or this week. Um, that was at 6.2. Yeah.

6.2. Yeah.

Why did you do that deal? Well, we

started the deal end of last year and uh you know I'm so sorry to be so blunt but it's like that that's like a 6x revenue multiple like well I mean people don't really look at Jack I would have done that deal. I mean people don't

that deal. I mean people don't really look at revenue multiple anymore right people people looking at gross profit you know we doing about $450

million gross profit so this year so essentially it's u you know 13 times of this year gross profit I mean it's not bad I mean if you look at that's kind of

the same sort of multiple stripe or you know revolutions are doing yeah I'm saying that's a good deal for an investor to do and I think people are on like like ley don't give you too much

credit on the growth rate today. They

don't give you too much credit on the growth rate. No, I don't think so. I

growth rate. No, I don't think so. I

think people really looking at um you know kind of public market calm and you know because of what happened in 2021.

So there's less investors out there believe that you can grow in 90% for a long period of time. Imagine like in 2021, right? People got burned. People

2021, right? People got burned. People

all growing 100% and just went from growing 100% to like 20% in like months.

Yeah. I think people just like investors just got burned through that through that experience and you know I think there's uh people just give you less credit that you can grow at this high

high speed for a long period of time.

How much did you just raise just now? We

raised $300 million. $300 million. Are

you still on the hey I need to be fundraising every month train? No. Um I

I'm actually buying back um Darw stock myself. So, I actually uh in the process

myself. So, I actually uh in the process of taking a debt of $70 million to buy Air Secondaries because I just have so much confidence to the company. No way.

Yes. You're taking out a $70 million debt. Yeah. With with some of my

debt. Yeah. With with some of my co-founders. Yeah. We uh we are um you

co-founders. Yeah. We uh we are um you know, literally buying our own stock.

Wow. You're buying it from like early Yeah. early investors.

Yeah. early investors.

Wow. Do you get that at a discount? Uh

well, we haven't done that yet. Let's

see. Can I join?

That was a question. Okay, that's a joke. Yeah, of course. No, no, dude. If

joke. Yeah, of course. No, no, dude. If

you haven't realized by now, I do these shows just for moments like that where I'm like, whoa, that is insane. Um,

okay. Fascinating. That is nuts, dude.

The growth rate of like 100% a year for eight years straight. Can I ask did you take secondaries out along the way? I

took some secondaries, not a massive amount of money, but uh I did. Um how do you advise founders on that? We

mentioned 2021. Yeah, a lot of founders took them out then. I think they wrongly chastise them. I think they're very good

chastise them. I think they're very good in a lot of cases. If you were to advise me as a founder, hey Jack, secondaries, what do you think? I recommend founders

take um enough secondaries so that they can they can live an accountful life, right?

They don't need to worry about how do they feed the family, how do they support the kids, how do they, you know, buy a house. You know, I think they should, you know, like I would say uh in Melbourne I don't I think the living

standards is much lower than London. I

think in London you you need like 20 $30 million to leave a very kind of comfortable life. I think that amount is

comfortable life. I think that amount is is right for a late stage founder because you just wanted the founder to be all in building the business rather than thinking about how to support the family if you know what I mean. I

totally do. But for any founders, do not take out 20 or $30 million from my round if it's too early. I think also timing matters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

timing matters. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I

think like for a late stage founder like you know above a billion dollar valuation. I think 20 $30 million is you

valuation. I think 20 $30 million is you know like it's a decent amount but it's not like you know ridiculous amount that you set for your life or anything. I

think it's just good t for founder to not think about um money too much and just really focus on the vision. Do you

love being a CEO? You mentioned your product, your engineering centrality as who you are. Do you like being a CEO?

I don't like the everyday um of the job of a CEO. Um and I like I able to control the destiny of the company and I ultimately answer to the

outcome of the in like the outcome of the company the outcome of the customer um the outcome of the employee right I wanted to have that control so I know

um that uh we are heading in the right direction towards our vision I don't like the dealing with the people issues you know dealing with you know the policies the procedures and all that

type of What did you not do in the Air Wallets journey that with the benefit of hindsight you wish you had done? A

couple of things. Number one, I hired the first 100 people in Air Wallets by myself on LinkedIn. Um, and obviously there's a lot of benefit doing that, but I could have hired a good recruiter just

to help me to do the outreach and then give him the access of my LinkedIn password. You know what I mean? I didn't

password. You know what I mean? I didn't

need to like do that myself. Oh, I could today I could just get AI to do that. Do

you not think so? Do you not think that was important in getting the first 100 right people with the right culture? I

think it's important. You still need to do that as a founder, but I just don't think you need to do physically like log into your LinkedIn like you know sending messages sending messages to like 100 people every day. Love it. Okay, so

that's number one. Yeah, I think get a good recruiter early on that kind of be, you know, make the hiring a lot more efficient. I think number two is that

efficient. I think number two is that don't overinvest in international expansion when you don't have part of market fit right and that could really

put a lot of risk to your company and we lucky 2021 happened and we're lucky that Ian closed around in 2020 when our revenue hed and covid happened and you

know stock down 30%. But I don't think everyone gonna be that lucky. So uh so do that. And I think the other thing is

do that. And I think the other thing is just really focus on uh invest in the culture uh early. Um I think we did you

ever have a moment when the culture was broken and what did you do to fix it?

It's a lot of pain like when the culture is you know we you know we had a lot of issues uh you know because when early the first four five years we hire a lot

of people that with a lot of great experiences you know they they from a bank they're from city bank they build a swift network before you know they know the thing then they they join they

telling me like you guys know nothing what you're going to do doesn't work we need to you know do blah blah blah and none of those people worked none of the people know none the people think they

know how to build a startup that worked.

Uh and ultimately it's not about the experience, it's about the competency, right? It's about the curiosity, the

right? It's about the curiosity, the determination, about the res resilience and about the belief in the vision, about the passion. Um and I think we should just have hired those curious,

determined, um optimistic people from early on, but we didn't. So we had to like fire all of them. And that, you know, it's it's a tough tough decision.

And uh we really slowed down the company. We had like bad you know press

company. We had like bad you know press about it. Uh there's a lot of p plan to

about it. Uh there's a lot of p plan to go through. Should you always take the

go through. Should you always take the highest price on fundraising?

No, I think you should always prioritizing what give you the biggest leverage the leverage on brand the leverage on hiring uh that leveraging on

commercial opportunities. Does venture

commercial opportunities. Does venture firms or do venture firms brands make a material difference? Yes. Only the top

material difference? Yes. Only the top five make a difference.

So having sequoia makes a big difference. Huge difference whether I

difference. Huge difference whether I like it or not. Why would you not like it? I mean ultimately you wanted to work

it? I mean ultimately you wanted to work with the best investor. Not only

investor but also a friend and that people you get along with and you like.

It's not saying I don't like the investor in Seoia. I'm just saying that you just choose the brand over the people. Which investor do you not have

people. Which investor do you not have that you would like to have?

I wish I have someone like Michael Mars that invest in like a true visionary investor that just supported the founder from day one.

You know like I think Michael Morris played a very important role of Stripe success. you know, he's waving the flag

success. you know, he's waving the flag of Stripe, early days of Silicon Valley, like early days of Stripe in Silicon Valley, saying, you know, John Patrick going to be the

next Sergey Brand or Larry Page, you know, that um they're going to build a trillion dollar company, blah blah blah.

I don't think I had that support. Have

you met him? Yeah. I mean, Mars invited me to his home, try to convince me to sell the company. Oh, wow. I mean, I wish I have an investor do that for me, you know.

Love that. How was that? There's a

beautiful home and there's a there's a nice conversation and it didn't convince you. Well, I mean, his argument make a

you. Well, I mean, his argument make a lot of sense that he's saying, you know, like I said, you know, why don't I just keep building and maybe sell later?

Like, what now? I haven't really figured it out. You know, what I do want to do

it out. You know, what I do want to do with my life yet. He's like, you know, you the earlier you can compound, the faster you can build a trillion dollar business. I mean, kind of makes sense. I

business. I mean, kind of makes sense. I

love that. Uh listen I want to do a quick fire. I've so enjoyed this. Um

quick fire. I've so enjoyed this. Um

when I ask you about a founder you deeply admire other than the Collisons who comes to mind first.

I really like Elon. I think what he have done um is able to ultimately is pushing the humanity forward. If you could put all of your money into one company other

than Airwalk which company would you put all of your money into?

I don't know. I wanted to put all my money because I never put all my money in one company. Um, I would put half of my money in SpaceX.

I'd do SpaceX. I I do a third. I do

OpenAI, SpaceX, and then Revolute.

I don't know about Revolute. I mean, uh, that's my competition ultimately in the future.

I'll put some money in Stripe. You put

some money in Stripe. Yeah. What's the

hardest thing about your role today?

um make decisions that knowing that more than 50% probability is going to be a wrong decision. You should be a venture

decision. You should be a venture investor. Uh do you like

investor. Uh do you like investing?

I don't think I'm a great investor. I

don't really know how to assess early stage founder very well. Why do you think that is?

Um I think it's just you know like before part of market fit is really just based on people's personality. I don't

know how to make a investment decision based on people's personality or the or the history of people. Right. That's why I said I

people. Right. That's why I said I wouldn't able to invest in myself. Yeah. I just haven't seen enough

myself. Yeah. I just haven't seen enough data to build that confidence. I get

that. What worries you that you think not enough people are spending time on?

Um I mean like generally people are making decisions based on the knowledge they have and I think generally that is not

the right thing to do because what the the biggest mistake you make is from making a decision based on the knowledge you don't have. Penultimate one for you.

You're in London now. Are you impressed by London's tax scene? What do you make of it? I think it's better than

of it? I think it's better than Melbourne. Um I think I love the global

Melbourne. Um I think I love the global nature of of of uh of London and I I've so far enjoyed meeting a lot of entrepreneurs. I think uh it's it's

entrepreneurs. I think uh it's it's going to be exciting place for you living here. Yeah. It's one of the best

living here. Yeah. It's one of the best cities in the world to live. I apart

from it's very expensive. Um you know everything else is is is pretty good. Um

okay final one for you dude. Airwalks in

2035 10 years out. Yeah. Where are you then?

I hope we have built um you know the one of the largest global payments and banking platform to power uh modern businesses around the

world. Uh I hope we have built a bigger

world. Uh I hope we have built a bigger business than city or HSBC because um you know when we succeeded doing that millions of businesses around the world

will benefit uh from the success our mission public or not doesn't matter. Would you

like to be a public company at some point? I think inevitably we kind of all

point? I think inevitably we kind of all have to think about that. Um but right now we we've been really head down building. Dude, this has been one of the

building. Dude, this has been one of the most awesome, fun, fascinating stories.

Thank you so much for sharing it with me and I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed it. Thanks, Harry. I really

enjoyed it. Thanks, Harry. I really

enjoyed the conversation.