Alan Hunter from NRN - Revolutionising Solar Access With An Innovative Approach - EP 13

hi we have Alan Hunter here today from nrn and Alan will all explain what nrn has to offer and it's obviously in the Solar space but Alan before we always

start we have one Golden Rule uh just to get the vipe going in the room Etc could you please touch my ball yes of course so did you see how it kind of was

flickering a little bit it didn't flicker no try again I want to see if I can oh yeah yeah see so that gets the vibe going oh

[Music] yep can you explain what nrn is all about oh Started From A belief of not depending on consumers to buy rooftop

solar to be able to get access to cheaper bills or make the transition to renewable um so really what we're trying to achieve is is yeah fundamentally

enabling people to access rooftop solar and Battery but without paying any cost or Finance um how we've we've going for the last four years trying to build out this product it's a very strong belief

in in or or Vision to how we can achieve this we we believe that everyone should have equal access regardless if you've got the wealth to buy solar for your home or or you don't have the wealth if

you're renting a home um uh we we now have designed a solution that everyone can have equal access to Rooftop solar and Battery through through what we've got at NN that's always been an issue with solar hasn't it that for example

people in a rental position can't really often get a benefit because very few landlords will buy out of the goodness of their heart yeah a solar system to

then give the benefit to the tenant yeah so you know can you explain to me really how nrn works exactly the same as energy how it worked back when it first was

created we uh we didn't have to buy a power station to power our home um it's the same concept the the power station that's put on your home the rooftop solar and a battery system is purchased by um the energy sector we're part of

the energy sector um this is the these costs are covered by the energy retailers uh and they are they're designing plans that include solar and battery so how how does it work for a consumer very similar to your

phone plan you might have a phone that incl your phone plan includes a phone uh it didn't cost you anything for the phone plan uh so didn't cost you anything for the phone but you just pay a monthly fee for your phone plan uh we now have energy retailers in Australia

that have designed energy plans but include these generation assets like rooftop solar and Battery um to put on your home so we're just kind of taking it back to the the principles of what

the energy sector was built around it's built around a a a community of it's not one person has to buy a generation asset for themselves it's about the energy industry supplying it and then using

that asset um across across the community so you're saying I got a house yeah and the house has a roof yep and then I put a solar system on the back

but I'm not paying for it no nrn is helping me to facilitate that yeah correct so correct so far maybe I I'll walk through that process so you've got a house you've got a roof and you want

electricity to turn your lights on you got two methods today uh with with with our solution one you're going to go and join an energy retailer and they'll give you access to the energy that that they

buy from the a high price at a at a at a higher price for sure um or the other way is you just sign up to this new Alternative Energy plan that just includes rooftop solar and Battery fully

installed on your home and it costs you nothing there's no there was no financing involved there was no trickery with costs and ups and downs and rebates there's nothing there's but then I pay for the electricity you pay for the

electricity and then I pay more so that I own the solar do I yeah so not or do I pay less yeah you pay less so the the electricity you're you're buying will come from your roof and it will also

come from the grid so um yeah the the additional grid so you got you got a blend the retailer will sell you that um in different type different ways there's different plans that are available uh but the I guess the the other benefit of

that you just called it out about owning there's uh every every month there is a value of your bill that will go towards the value of that system so you can buy anytime if you really wanted to own

these assets or or these systems we we're just questioning what is the big benefit of spending tens of thousands of dollars up front um to pay for your energy bills up

front like if uh if AGL phoned me today and asked me to pay $20,000 in advance for my energy cost and I'll be I'll get given green energy I I I don't know know if I'd take up that deal but that's what

the reality is happening today um I know full well solar and battery doesn't have a very strong residual value meaning that there's not a secondary Market of you taking off your roof and sell it in

the public space therefore the value of that system is actually Z from the from day dot when you do when you do buy them you put a system on my roof y you then

use the electricity that my solar generates y but instead of because I never paid for the solar system it now I still have to pay for the electricity but the rate is lower than

what I would normally get from the energy retailer is that correct that's correct but and because it has a battery I can also benefit of the solar during the day so I can still pull out cheaper

electricity at night as well that's correct yep exactly that okay so really simply somebody's put a solar system on a roof yep that I don't pay for it but then the electricity out of the solar I

can generate and purchase Y and I pay less than what the one comes out of the power point that's right and what's the difference perom let's say on a normal

Family household what do I save by basically making you and allowing you to put a solar system on my roof what's the benefit for me look um right now our

average customers are saving between $750 to $800 a year um by by having this benefit uh we we let's refer back to the terminology return on investment uh this

is a infinite return on investment because there was no investment required so there was money in your pocket from day one now we're only getting going like and the the the great thing with

the nrn business model is as as the network grows so more and more homes join nrn these rates can actually get cheaper because they they're working together and we'll talk a little bit

about how that works later um but we we we believe in the next 18 months we're able to um help consumers save between 122 to $1,500 a year by joining nrn

having a having a solar battery system on their home at no cost and this will actually challenge the same amount of savings that you get from buying a solar system on your own today and uh that we've got a very clear road map to how we can achieve that so you're saying

right now with the energy retail plans that you've negotiated the savings is around the $800 Mark that's correct for kind of the average consumer if I'm a

large consumer of electricity then the savings would be higher would they yeah like we have customers reaching nearly $2,000 a year of savings from what they were paying before and that's just uh they're a very high energy user the cost

of energy has gone up by 25% the last few months um so yeah I think there's a lot of uh other factors that are showing the values of of what we're providing now are there any other services that

and companies that do similar work to nrn um for for those in the industry very um popular terminology could be viewed as a power purchase agreement this isn't a power purchase agreement

this is very very different um there are large cni or uh Comm um I guess commercial customers that have solar on their roofs it doesn't cost them anything and they buy the energy directly from the roof that's called a

PPA a power purchas agreement and you you buy energy for an agreed 10-year period at a fixed price um this is very very different this really enables the energy retailer to create these plans

now these plans can change over time uh and what we're now doing is working with energy retailers to make sure that these plans are more and more attractive but the the the big important factor for us

is the customers having a choice um we we don't believe that one customer should be tied legally to an energy retailer it's the big stick versus the carrot we we we want to see energy

retailers providing a carrot to to incentivize customers to stay with them um and and really that's why we've gone down that route so when we think about other um products that are in Market um

there there are you know other financing Solutions buy out payload Solutions uh there are other retailers looking at how they how they do offer this but yeah

look there's it's it's all now moving in a New Direction uh and hopefully you know I think we're not the only ones out there we're pathing away for others as

well um but we need to we need to challenge the norm of just selling more Solar Systems is the way forward for for the transition to renewable I hear that

you giv me cheaper electricity bills in a cost of living crisis sounds like a bit too good to be true how how do you do it look pretty much we uh we

work with energy retailers to build energy plans uh that will be a cost a cheaper cost of energy for you so Energy prices have increased by

25% um we put a and that that's all energy from the grid we put a solar and Battery system on your home there's no cost there's no financing nothing like that for yourself but essentially that

energy retail is going to sell you the energy from that's being generated in your house um you know we we we've seeing our average customers save between $800 to $850 a year right now uh

and we're expecting that to increase by another 20 30% over the next 12 months um it's it's so easy like it just it's available for for owners for renters for

landlords for social homes government housing uh it's really removing the cost barriers that we've had there for years and uh yeah we think it's a bit of a

game changer I mean tenant in the past always had really uh a problem accessing solar so your system you put it on the

roof and then that electricity that's obviously in bracket for free yeah you're still charging something for it but it's lower than the energy retail

price and that difference is the saving for the End customer so I'm just using the sample I don't know if these are your prices but let's say if I can buy electricity for 45 cents in the middle

of the day or do it's the later part of the afternoon when it's a bit more expensive and then I use that one coming out of your system and that might be

only 25 cents is it and so that 20 cents difference is your savings right and I can get that because I got a battery I can get that at night as well that's correct yeah exactly and that's all

through our uh energy retailer Partners so you don't join you're not signing up to nrn and nrn isn't giving you a bill uh it's it's well recognized energy

retailers in the market that's see this as a a new way of um decarbonizing their portfolio and and putting more Renewables in the grid right so I mean

normally energy retailers we think well they're trying to make maximum profit out of us yeah so are they suddenly become socially conscious or does it make a lot of business sense for them

look it does make business sense for them um I think we're at a a very complex stage in our grid we have a lot of different fuel mixes with renewable and fossil fuels um

and as we as we go through this transition over the next decade it's getting more and more expensive for them from the grid so this this alternative solution uh whereby providing solar and battery on

your home for free at no cost and then just charging you for the energy that you use from it um is is is a really good way for retailers to make this work financially for them as well because we

all have to win I mean I understand that with um EVS coming Etc the need of the grid to deliver more electricity is really enormous and therefore also the

need for the infrastructure to be built out is therefore enormous and that will add more cost to electricity bills going forward if we suddenly have a th000

2,000 5,000 10,000 nrn systems up there with batteries backing the grid does your system also make the grid more stable definitely so we um we call this a virtual power plant so all of our

systems are virtually connected together uh and uh to put it into easy terms it's it's looking at the market dynamics we have a very volatile Market goes ups and downs uh and it can be very reactive uh

and the purpose of V virtual power plant is to be reactive to to help the market in certain times um so if if there's a very hot day and everybody turns their

airon off on not off at that point in time your 3,000 batteries would be able to send power back into the grid to back the grid is that it and that means we

have to have less infrastructure therefore the overall cost for grid expansion is going to be reduced this this could be exactly a point um I think there's a there's a lot of smarts that

goes behind what a really good virtual power plant is um we could get to the point where we are through AI we are we are forecasting the usage of power that

you know if we use example 3,000 homes let's say 1,000 of them the computer knew that there wasn't power going to be used in the next hour so it could prioritize that battery to be discharged

and support so there's a lot of different ways looking at it but yeah I I think the as we go into the full transition towards renewable we need to

be using um Ai and optimization algorithms to help us further manage the grid but also that's why there's a result of Cheaper energy so what are

actually the unique selling points of nrn we're changing the way that people was always expected to go and buy their en energ up front you know

you buy a solar system could be 7,000 could be solar and battery for $20,000 you're paying for your energy 8 years in advance or seven years in advance here are we the big differentiation is is we

are bringing you retailers through our Network who will offer these plans that just include solar and Battery it's a a buzzword of energy as a service um and

you can you save money from day one I understand that with cars and things like that nowadays the more younger generation they're not like us the Boomers who had the teddy bear and we

went to hold it all day and I want to own my solar system on my roof um so is that a just a whole shift uh in thinking does it mean I don't have to go up and

clean the pigeon poo of my solar panels and stuff like that I mean what's it in terms of Maintenance who does that it's exactly that we we we beg the question why do you need to own a solar system

like what like does it give you a lot of Joy pride and everything else like uh that sense of ownership so we are challenging that I think for the Boomers there's definitely that sense of we have to own it um not just having access to

it um but in terms of looking after it that's our responsibility you know we we pay there's about a $5,000 maintenance contract that's sat with your local installer to look after that system uh

and they and the responsibility here is shared to say you're you're going to have cheaper access to cheaper energy because your systems are being looked after and managed well you don't have to

have that stress responsibility you all you want to do is go home turn the lights on it's cheaper power and it's green and if we can do that without you spending a penny I think we've done our job right obviously if I own the system

then I get the full benefit I'm not paying for the electricity anymore correct but then also if I take my $8 to $220,000 and I invest it somewhere I get a return on that that's right so it'd be

interesting to see the numbers of taking my 20 grand investing it getting the benefits of the cheap electricity to you and it possibly going to be fairly similar no not really let's take this

example a a 20,000 solar uh $20,000 solar and Battery Solution um if we we could save a customer right now $800 is the average savings that we're seeing uh those customers would have saved maybe

$1,800 to $2,000 they put purchased themselves so that that Delta let's be concerned let's say it's an extra $1,200 difference but it cost you $220,000 extra so to get your money back in

comparison to what we're offering it's nearly 18 years like and I think that that's that's huge and and and we we at the very beginning of this journey right

now we we see in the next 12 to 18 months we're getting that savings figure up to $ 131,00 and we'll start competing against how much you could save if you purchased it yourself and then you've got your maintenance and your cleaning

and everything else that comes along with it I think it's a time where you know buying it for yourself and yourself only are the days of a decade ago that the future is a a collective of of

having access to the to these so you're saying actually potentially get a better deal with nrm 100% you just raised a point there if you had your $20,000 and put it into a an interest bearing account and with interest rates rising

at the moment you uh you've got an opportunity loss of um what you could earn from that money and you have you have access to that money you have a level of liquidity there's no liquidity when you buy a solar and Battery system

I mean the other issue is also that nowadays A lot of people do put uh the solar and battery purchase on through their mortgage yeah but the mortgage rates are around the 7% now yeah correct

so so if it's a 6% return that I worked out before on my $ 20,000 to get me $1,200 um you actually making a lot of

sense yeah yeah and and I I think you know the standard payback period let's call it that for a solar own battery system today is 8 to nine years and maybe seven in certain if you get some

cheaper systems but let's let's say 8 to nine if you now add our savings there and we talk about that Delta from $800 to say that 2,000 so $1,200 a Delta um

yeah it's it's getting to 16 to 18 year payback when you're comparing it to what you could have with no cost so I think that's where the big difference is and um we're only going to make that Gap smaller and smaller over the years to come but but if I'm a solid sales guy I

will try and tell you that it'll pay itself back in five years and I hope you don't do the math yourself there's ethics within this game and I think energy is a very confusing industry we we're all consumers of energy we all pay

for it but we know so little uh and I think we um it's about trusting the expert to educate Us in the right way but if we remove those costs then we don't have dodgy salespeople trying to

um trying to get a buck very quickly because there's uh there's there's no cost to it and nowadays we got a cost of living crisis and at the moment you say look you got a roof talk your landlord

into it um this is one of the easiest way at least to get 800 to 1,000 bucks off your living expenditures per year and for some people that's quite a bit of money it's a lot of money now um but

naturally everybody's gone a bit cynical nowadays I mean there's a scam on my phone popping up every day yeah um do you sometimes get asked is this too good

to be true every day and and I and do you dress up as Santa Claus and try to sell them as a present or so I mean what's your answer yeah look our answer is is you know we we work with Partners

we're a partnership business we we have energy retailers that build the products uh we then have solar retailers solar retailers uh play a huge role in this transition um towards

renewable they they work locally so like for for it's really important for us that it's your it's your local um solar installer up the road who John who's helped all your

neighbors um get Renewables we're going to educate John from that solar retailer and and give them the tools and visibility over these savings because it is around trust and uh you know I know

what we've built I know what we've we've seen the numbers and genuinely people are saving money we have great feedback coming back to us and um it's yeah how do we overcome the trust

factor is a is the challenge ahead of us from all the things I've seen in Sol I've been in the Eng for 20 years yeah it's very seldom that I don't pay

anything up front y I get a benefit immediately yep I don't have to actually worry about cleaning and maintaining and if it doesn't work that's your problem

isn't it that's correct what happens then with the 18 cents but or the 20 cents or the 22 if my system is down yeah I can't get the cheap electricity

out of it anymore what happens there no subject to the the type of energy plan uh that the retailer uh will offer you but we we actually don't get paid if the system isn't working uh and we we get

paid by the energy retailer by the energy sector they they pay us for um the access towards this rooftop tolerant battery if it's not working we don't get paid so we are on the hook to make sure

that these systems are working I can assure you every day at 8:30 a.m. we get

all get an email around the performance of all of our sites so we we uh internally as a team we are always on top to make sure the systems are working that's our job that as a consumer is you

know you've got lots of things to do in your life that's not your job to make sure these systems are working that's that's ours so I guess that's the assurity that we do have in place um and then every retailer will have a

different plan structure um to either um remunerate or or something back to a to a end user if there is an issue um but look we we have a

turnaround time uh within of 10 business days to get that site up and running fixed and and go going again we've heard loads of horror stories over the years and I think this is a this is a big problem that we're solving what horror

stories of people having purchased solar and then the company go on bust and they can't get their warranty and things like that this is it so those issues we won't have with you no so so what you you know

working with solar retailers in our space you know they they all have an obligation to make sure that that system is working for a 10-year period we we we always forget that they're not getting

paid for that they you know we we talk about the race of the bottom in the Solar uh in the Solar industry uh and the the smaller that margin is there the smaller that goes towards their support team who can help these systems get

fixed down the line um as in our own we put nearly a $5,000 maintenance basically contract behind every site that we install that goes back to the solar industry so we're paying them for

doing a job that they should they're doing anyway today but it makes sure it's sustainable they can afford to get the contact centers they can afford to send people out and fix it and I think that's a really it's something that's really overlooked within our our sector

it's just about how do I get the cheapest system um on my roof and save as much money there's a lot more that needs to go behind but look I mean there are solar systems which can be sold for

$2,990 and then there are others which claim to do the same and they're $7,000 and most Australians are gamblers yes so they go oh $299 that'll save me $2,000 a year I got my

money back in a year and a quarter that's a much better deal than ourn is that true no I I you know I think you know there the less you pay the more you

spend I think it's always a saying in the in the Solar world it's uh um what you're saying the $2,990 system will have an issue what at year two or three if not before unknown

systems that get installed and don't aren't even switched on and you don't know that for the next six months until you get your bill and then you're a bit price shocked you then try and get around to contacting the person that St it and they're not there anymore so I

think there's a but there's a lot of phoenixing going on the all industry I think it's a very well-known uh Factor within the the um this this space um I think the it's there's certain bodies

that are are doing a lot at the moment to try and clean this space up you know I always advise someone to if they're going to buy a system to go through the uh NCC uh the new energy Tech consumer

code who uh have a list of many solar retailers that are audited and uh get credited essentially to buy it so yes I I think there's uh it's it's a it's

known in the industry that it's always about the cheapest system is the best it's it's for for a consumer it's it's uh yeah it's wrong you're saying horror stores in solar um yeah give me a sample

there's times where people would buy a system uh and it's not even switched on yeah they might not even have the permission to have a system when they're home um every every household has to get

permission from the grid so your your your local um your local grid must authorize you to have that system if they don't do the right paperwork you can't get connected and your system will

stay off we we we see this a lot and I say a lot like you you hear it a lot of this happening you also hear the instances where half the system has been connected properly and the other half

hasn't um meaning that you you know you're generating power but how how much do you know that you should be generating if you got installed a I mean the the light on the inverter is green yeah should be okay yeah a little bit of

power's flowing through but what if uh you know one of the strings wasn't even connected you know and I think then they get a big bill again there you go and and you don't know until you get that big Bill and and I think there's you

know we energy is confusing solar is confusing we're trying to make it easy and there's low risk like we we take the risk be uh because we know energy we

work within the sector um why should we rely on consumers to buy energy infrastructure like rooftop solar and give them all the risk to make sure that

we're uh we we're making this transition this is our big belief so if I go to nrn yeah I don't spend money up front nope I get a lower Bill than I would just

naturally y why aren't you overrun with thousands of people all kind of like the Beatles in the olden days yeah it's starting I'll be honest with you um I think now we've got we've passed our

what we call our proof of concept stage um we had to demonstrate that customer going to save money so we had a cohort of around 100 customers who tried out these systems we put it on their roofs and the results were a lot better than

what we expected which is always a nice thing uh when you're building out a proof of concept um we're now at the point of of working with um your local solar retailers to help introduce this

product into your local area uh and that's I guess that's what we're going to be doing over the next 12 to 18 months so I'm sure you're going to um you know we might be bigger than the bols you never

know now why should solar retailers opt for a partnership with you customers only value a system on the dollar price that they're given they don't value the service don't value the background of

that company and everything else so you know why solar retails are interested in in our solution it eliminates all race to the bottom everyone's got a fair playing Ground because there's no cost for the customer but it's also in your

interest to put good gear in so it doesn't break down is it correct yeah so we we we have like an approved product list um that solar retailers are able to go and purchase they make their own you

know they they buy in different volumes different quantities and they they can do that so they have a they have a a price with us they invoice us they get paid they get paid quickly uh and I think that's the other aspect is cash

flow within the solar industry uh solar retail space is so important especially when we're talking solar battery systems that could have a a um an an asset value

of 15 to $16,000 you want to make sure you're getting that money back in because if you don't have the right terms with your distributors you're going to be out of pocket could be hundreds of thousand dollars every week uh until the the cash flow starts

cycling so that's a that's a big one the other main one is recurring Revenue um in this solar retailer space you are chasing the next sale to pay your salaries and and I think that's the

hardest thing that every solar retailer business owner goes through um we are putting a $5,000 maintenance contract on every home they install what period is that this is over a 10e period um so

it's the same job that they do today uh but they just don't get paid for it uh and what this does is creates a book a value of their business so not not only is their money or cash flow coming

in there's actually an Enterprise Value if we we we see in the Solar industry a few um Acquisitions happening here and there at the moment it's a very hot subject um but the the risk the larger

solar retailers have is they're carrying a huge book of liabilities uh and this could be 20 30,000 homes um that they have to just to explain it means when

you install 20,000 systems you now potentially on the hook for some of the warranty out calls because you can't just send them off to the manufacturer a lot of times you have to get involved

which is valuable time so if I buy a Solar Company then if they install a lot of crap I could actually down the track be in big trouble because I'm spending

all time running around corre so you're how's that going with nrn you're paying the people for the maintenance work that they haven't even done yet because you

given them a recurring income what every month yeah every month yeah yeah so and we see this as a as a as a book value too like it's there it lasts for 10

years and it will just increase their Enterprise Value if a you know an acquisition is is a strategy within that business down the line um and I think this is this is a game Cher for for the

industry and I think this is why we've had a a really interesting reaction from the solar retailer industry around our product there was a lot a lot of uh too good to be true when it when if first

when we first started talking to the industry but once we were very transparent with the cash flow and who earns what um we started to gain a lot of trust and yeah we we are genuinely getting a lot of interest look I'm going

to ask a tricky question here now because batteries do sometimes only last seven8 nine years okay if they really had the crap kicked out of it and they were installed in a hot spot and all

that so let's make it year eight yep and I've got a malfunctioning inverter and also the battery seems to be on its last leg Yeah who's paying for that replacement it's us so so that's not

coming out of the residual from the solar retailer no not at all we've uh We've backto backed everything on our on our warranties with the manufacturers um we also only charge the energy sector

the usable capacity of a battery so you might have a uh 16 KW battery installed today but by year eight there might only be nine uh kilow hours that's usable because we have a degradation um we've

we've budgeted all that like it's all within our numbers so if but then again if it comes with it under a certain threshold we it falls into a warranty claim and then I guess that's what we um

we have in place right could you give me an example where you have added actually really additional Extra Value to a solar retailer yeah definitely um I think conversion rates so we one of our

partners were converting nearly 40% of just a customer receiving a proposal so that's just saying an estimate this is how much you'll sa to actually signing

up so with 10 customers leads he sells normally four yep so that's so so so you I think standard with the industry we see between 15 and 20% so if we think

about double of that is is a huge factor of reducing the cost of um cost of acquisition which I think the cost of cost of acquisition is a big metric or a

cost Point within the solar space um leads from us so we we work with energy retailers uh we we we we have the opportunity to have um customers that come through energy retailers and want

to have access to this plan we're providing these straight up to the solar retailers to be able to access this new market talk go on to the next point about New Market like every solar

retailer in Australia Today is targeting the $6 million home sorry the Six Million homeowners that we have in Australia everyone forget about the 3.2 million renters that we have available

everyone doesn't focus on them but it's such a a what I would call Blue Ocean that I think we can offer to um to solar retailers and just to wrap up that fin final point you know the biggest part

piece for me is that recurring Revenue it's ironically you know we're in we're all about sustainability but the solar retailer business model is very challenging to be sustainable um and and

to be there tomorrow because we're always chasing the next Cale and we was always a race to the bottom so I believe what we're offering them is a is a very clear road map to sustainability because they have recurring revenue and there's

no race to the bottom moving on to the energy retailer which are also the people that sent you the bills your distributors Etc what's in it for them we are so advanced in Australia compared to the rest of the world with this

transition of to towards renewable uh renewable is a variable generation Source right so um I I if we think about a cied power station we call this as a

base it's a baseline or it's a it's a base generation Source where it's just a a flatline of generation we we have variable Factor now with the sun when it comes out we get generation and so so

the B the big factor for the energy retailers is our Market is so volatile now and relying on buying from Market is is too risky we had eight energy

retailers go bust last year in Australia we hit very volatile markets last May or June it was um and they were all the majority were exposed to wholesale market and just couldn't make it work so

we we what's really critical for energy retailer is having the right hedge now explaining what that is it's it's making sure that there is a financial contract

behind them that doesn't let them too be too exposed to the volatility of the energy market now whilst building a hedge having these assets available this

rooftop and and Battery Systems that that you can control physical power um to either be discharge or charge or however you do it you could actually what you call start shaping your load so

um when when a hedge is being built it always looks at what time you're using power the flat of the the better it is for energy retailers this is exactly what we can do by by providing this

solution to energy retailers now maybe I've got take a little bit of a no I think no no I think I got it because what you're basically saying is people

there's the energy generator y he sells the power to the energy retailer who has their book of clients y they have to purchase it at the SI at the price that

the energy retailer sets when the energy prices in Europe went up gas and other competing factors went up which meant the energy generators had

to charge more the energy retailers in between now couldn't charge what was coming through the line to the end customers because they had the existing contracts correct now if they would

actually have their own creation capacity through the batteries and the solar systems on roofs at that point in time they're minimizing their exposure to sudden

price FL uations this is correct did I get that yeah exactly that Y and also sometimes we're in an auction system uh for buying electricity and on

a very hot summer day when everybody turns on the air con it could suddenly cost you $1 1314 a kilowatt hour that you then have to sell back to the customer at 40 cents who still thinks

they're paying a lot but you're losing money by the millions this it if you have for that half an hour to an hour where the prices are Sky High if you got your own little Reservoir to send it

back down the line again you're minimizing risk this is it yeah and this is where the the world of a virtual power plant is is becoming a big thing

at the moment um our learnings is that if we relied on consumers so moms and dads us to buy a solar and Battery system and we then say to them hey we

want to use your system in our virtual power plant that Mom and Dad wants an incentive right they want to get paid for being part of that that component but they're also um conflicted to what

they can do I I'll give you an example where with our systems in September this year we saw a lot of negative Market events in Victoria so which is the

energy uh somebody had to pay to actually keep their power station on this is right correct so the generation needs to basically pay the market to take the energy and which is crazy and

way you we're experiencing this we've started in Australia now it's starting to see in Victoria newand in Queensland and it's because of the influx of rooftop solar so you know in in these

instances the energy retailer actually wants to turn off your export but if you are but in the middle of a environmental crisis we're creating solar and then we say oh there's too much I mean those

energy retailers why the hell didn't they build batteries I mean they saw the solar train coming for the last 15 years where everybody asleep at the wheel yeah it's all about the commercial side too

it's it's you know yeah everyone generally you're making financial decisions you're trying to be nice to the energy retailers oh look it's it's the energy retailers job isn't around um

battery storage or generation systems we have you know there are the larger energy retailers that are what we call geners generation and retailers um and they do have a they have a mix of different generation assets and then

they retail so that's some of them just sell electricity and others generate and sell correct so the large players like let's say AGL or or origin yes they

generate and their sell so they're in the B business but the smaller ones let's make it dodo or something they'll buy from the market they buy just from the market so correct yeah there is definitely a role here for energy

retailers and this is why we believe that we're providing them a really interesting solution because they know they need to participate let's talk about you know the the tier three or two- tier retailers the ones that are actually trying to make a real big

difference here as well you know they don't have the balance sheet of the the backing to be able to go and buy large you generation systems and batteries and everything else El musk would love to

sell them a few right but 500 million a pop this is it and and but they they're focused on spending their money on futures of energy on Hedges and making sure that they're protected to to

provide cheaper pricing from the grid now what we're trying to do is say well by installing a solar and Battery system on s's home you're eliminating nearly 75% of that need for that home from the

grid of of power is is actually generated and stored behind the meter and we use the firm the term behind the meter because there's a meter that's the grid facing and everything behind it is

is is where the solar battery is um so so when a retailer starts to assess their portfolio they they can really take three quarters of the the the

demand from the grid per home that does join nrn and after a while they'll start seeing a significant amount of benefits and there are it's it's very clear in this Dynamic Market that a retailer is

better off with our solution than it is buying energy traditionally through the the different hedging strategies that are available in market today and that's because it's the timing is right like we

went we're were in the middle of an energy crisis right now uh and that's why we have increased costs um the cost of the sun hasn't increased uh on July the first this year uh it's still the

same cost in fact the panel prices have become cheaper um it's it's actually going all in the right direction to make sure that retailers are getting more involved

behind the meter with the customers and providing these systems so you tell me I put a solar system on my roof I don't own it you own it that power out of the solar system that's coming out is going

to be cheaper to me so I save 800 to 1,000 bucks a year and maybe down the track even more um now let's say I have an area where there's occasionally

blackout does my battery in my solar system also give me blackout protection 100% so I get that as an extra benefit is it so I can actually pretend I paid for it I can brag for the Neighbors I

can look like smart I get us show lower bill and I have blackout protection yep all right does that mean you kind of locking me in for 10 15 years in a contract uh I can't buy the solar system

out what happens if I sell my house what are those kind of constraints I mean there must be little asteres and little things that are linked to it you can buy the system at any time we we we we want

to make that flexibility but at a at a realistic price or you put a 50% margin at all at the same price you would go and buy a system for in Market that would be that that price from day one and every month it just gets cheaper and

cheaper and cheaper right because we we think that's fair it's been used so you're going to you're going to pay a cheaper rate for it we we provide that visibility up front from day one so when there's an agreement put in front of you

you know at year five this is how much the system's going to be worth if I sell my house and um you know we so if you do sell the house you can't really give it to the new you can so this is the other

part is that you can novate that agreement whenever you want we charge a small $40 admin fee is immaterial really but we will novate that over to the new owners or if in landlord situation it

would be the tenant um to basically say that we are able to look after that system and manage it on your behalf and you're going to use one of our um energy retailer partners and that that's really

key is that we want to get the energy sector to pay for it so our our job our responsibility is to make sure that we can bring as many energy retailers or utilities to the party as possible to give you as much Choice as you want as a

consumer so let's say after year five I want to sell my house yeah I now got the option to give the new purchaser and owner the option to move into your

Arrangement and he gets a lower bill or if he says oh look I'm not the guy of paperwork and this and that I then purchase the system at the value at the time given that possibly I sell the

house for many hundreds of thousand off dollars that little relatively small amount wouldn't be that much plus it possibly would add value to the home anyway it yeah correct we we actually had someone that joined us got a system

with the intent that he's going to sell the house in the next few months and and the whole reason was that it cost cost them nothing it was they wanted to add more value to the home and they believe

that the value of buying that system was going to be smaller than the value added to the property so they would make money from spending nothing very smart very Savvy but yeah that's uh the Bey got

themselves a nice front yard for for nothing meaning the house to any buyer looked now more substantial correct oh very smart so basically my marketing

would go to people want to sell their houses he's a solar system on the roof looking at 60 million bucks yeah this is and and look at I I think this also goes

to um you know we think about the amount of new builds that are being built every every year too I think this is a this is a great way of of developers wanting to sell more homes or you know people

selling homes is adding solar and battery and and to the home and I think that does appeal to uh to the New Market that's out there now after 10 years when

the whole thing is kind of um getting towards the end of the sign up and the batter is obviously getting a bit older do I own the solar system then or do I have to still pay you out or what's the

story there so you got you got a few options you you can pay it out there is a a what called residual value so a small amount of value and it would be in between1 to $2,000 at the end if you did

want to own it we we we didn't put it at Z at the end because we don't actually feel like we should give you something that doesn't work anymore uh you know I think it's it's quite important to say

no let's let's go again let's keep saving you like this money every year and uh we're going to replace the battery we're going to place the inverter it's great for our solar retailers they get another piece of work

and and I think that's about the sustainable mod um and as a as a consumer you're just benefiting the same rates that you're paying now again it costs you nothing you just get upgraded your system so you could get the bragging rights again and you add more

value to your property um and and and basically you go again and that's that's the whole goal so that the reason we have 10 years in there is is we it's too scary to give a few 20year contract or

an evergreen contract we need to have a term um but we try and enable as much flexibility as we as we possibly can to make sure that we're not we're not locking you in it's just but I mean a

lot of solar systems do have 25 year warranties on the panel so if put a new um inverter in a new battery you should be really operating quite well correct

yeah exactly that okay let's say you start me on 20 cents a kilowatt hour instead of my 35 to 40 yeah and um it the second year or so the energy

retailer suddenly decides oh this is too good to be true and they whack me up up to 35 have I got any protection that actually that better rate will stay with me yeah really good question look

there's this this this is why we don't believe that having tying you into one like energy contract is the right way and we go refer back to a power purchase agreement

or anything like that you know we we think having multiple energy retailers will create a competitive landscape so you're able then to to actually assess that if if if your rate's gone up by 35%

just say um through our solution then here's the marketplace go and have a look at other retailers of what they're offering that that include the solar and battery so I think that's really key there are some retailers uh we partnered

with our first retailer was Diamond energy Diamond energy have actually locked in their rates so they've said as long as you stay with us one of the rates that you use from your solar and Battery we're going to lock it in for Evergreen which is uh which is a really

interesting way about this whole carrot not the stick um of of incentivizing a customer to stay with them so so some of the energy retailers will actually give you a fixed rate for the title period of

the contract While others might have some flexibility y as the market goes up and down right um and you will then down the track there will be a number of

energy retailers I can choose from yeah there is there's always there there will be a number there's quite a lot that want to participate and join uh and you know we we're aiming to have at least

seven uh energy plans uh available by this time next year which is is December next year okay now some people actually call solar middle class

welfare because what happens is the rebate that everybody gets who buys the solar system adds to the cost of the electricity price because that's how it's been recovered that's correct but

the only benefit that you can get from the rebate is if you own a house so the poorer people who are in rental situations actually in this part of

society Subs the more rich people when it comes to solar most people don't really realize that so if you struggle with your electricity bill it's only a small

amount but one part of the cost is actually for you purchasing indirectly a solar system for somebody in the rich suburbs correct it's crazy are you in

that same game then or are you actually in the counter game enabling the more poorer people to access solar how does it work it's making sure it's available for everyone and just to touch that

Point yeah the it's it's around $200 a year of your energy bill is paying towards these rebates that are go paying for those who can afford it right um no look for us it's about democratizing

it's it's we we really believe that those that are in need should have equal access to Rooftop solar and cheaper energy rates um by relying on the energy

Market is is only going to get worse um you know we we experienced a 25% Spike we're going to experience I believe at least another 10% next year uh and and

and a few more years after and it's there's a lot of reasons why but um I mean I tell you why we got the EV the grit actually is at the moment not fit for purpose the grit needs huge

investment the solar farms and the wind farms that's going to supply power will be far far away the transmission lines have to be built and what we got got right now is also getting older uh I've

hear of people discussing electricity prices going forward which could be you think it's expensive at 45 c yeah uh 60

65 70 yep at that point in time your system will really make good sense it will the the sun isn't charging us more money and you're spot on like energy

costs will increase um just want to refer on a on a point you know 50 to 55% of your energy bill is paying for the poles and wires and and the networks it's it's we need them we we need the P

we need the wire that comes to our house to connect to the grid um but there's you know with electric vehicles going to play there need to be upgrades to substations and different Transformers and the I guess the overall

infrastructure so yeah those costs are going to increase but just going back to to people that can't afford it the cheapest way of them reducing their bill

is by having energy direct generated directly on their house if it's the renter if it's a a a social if it's owned by the government or however this is this is a space that that we really

feel passionate about and that we can help um because there is no cost someone that has a $5 million home or someone's home that is $200,000 they should their

cost or their access to energy should be equal um you know maybe some debate that the $5 million home should pay more more cost of energy but you know that they can buy a solar system the the other we

we really want to help and that's something we can we can support with now let's say I'm a tenant yeah um I'm feeling the cost of living pressure y um and I hear about

nrn could I then approach my landlord and introduce him to nrn yeah definitely do you do you talk to the landlord and explain it all or how does it work we do it's definitely a little bit like challenging and the reason it's

challenging is there's multiple stakeholders within within this relationship but we we have had renters come to us and we've engaged with the landlord as long as the landlord is they they recognize there's no cost to them

they recognize that the the tenant is more than willing to use the participating energy retailers then there is no there is there's no issue like the tenant is going to save money it's going to increase the value of that landlord's home and there is no

cost for that landlord so but what happens if that tenant moves out then the new tenant has to actually move into that contract as a as a condition isn't it yeah that's correct so that's where the little bit of complexity comes into

it um you there are ways and we see a future where we could eliminate that and that's something we're working on and hopefully in the next three to four years we we won't actually require those

novs or contracts but but for the moment yes you need to sign a new contract but then again if I'm a tenant and I move into the house and one of the conditions of the house is that the electricity

bill is lower than in the other place it's Supply not that hard to convince you to go exact exactly that or and I got back up as well correct y exactly

that so yeah there's a few different ways of doing it um the rental market is definitely a challenging one um but it's a it's a it's a blue ocean because it's challenging and I think that that's what that's what we get excited about it's

like how do we solve the problems that haven't been solved yet no I mean solar in the past for renters has not been accessible if you make it accessible and give benefits to the lower socioeconomic

people I'm I'm I'd say the politicians will beat a drum to your door yeah no definitely and and it has to be a collective effort everything we do is collective we have we have four

stakeholders that work with us to make sure this works we have people we have investors who buy the systems they they they work very close with with the energy retails that build the product with the solar retails that install it

and with the customers that have the access to cheaper rates every every participant or every stakeholder has a role to play to make this work and if we think about the politicians or you know

what can we how can they help the transition they can really get involved here about helping all those stakeholders within our supply chain make their benefits even more attractive

which will drive more demand it's kind of funny really because everybody of the four stakeholders you just mentioned is in a win-win-win situation win I

actually haven't met many products where there isn't much of a downside no uh which is possibly your biggest problem because people go sounds too good to be true that's it yeah correct I I'll give

you a low electricity bill I'm not a door knocker yeah who's promising the world I'm actually generally putting a real system on your roof it's of a of a

good quality I will maintain it Y and you save money correct but it's it's and it's because we we govern all that right we we know how much a customer saving we know how much of retailer is making from

it we know how much of solar retail is gaining from it and we know how much investors are getting so we we have a duty to make sure there is a a very stable Fair return for everyone or a

benefit for everyone financially um and that's our responsibility so we we've now hit that point where every stakeholder has a return uh or a benefit let's just call it um and it's it's

sufficient it's good enough it's great and and I think there are other factors that will improve this over time quick question I mean you're saying the customer is benefiting because they get cheaper electricity the energy retailer

is benefiting because they got more security now in the volatile Market uh the investors who purchase the system in the first place are benefiting because there's a

return but you're really depending on the very volatile Australian electricity Market because what you're really doing is you're charging

indirectly for the reduction of that volatility and the more higher level of security but if for whatever reason one day that whole uh you know flexibility

of having to pay big bucks in an auction system for electricity on a hot day if that suddenly gets eliminated one day maybe with huge batteries out there doesn't your model at that point in time

not really work anymore no not when we consider what the cost of your power is going back to my comment previously the cost of power is majority of the the

poles and wires in the networks there there is a um you mean mean bringing the solar farm all the way from wherever bath all here

that cost correct you don't necessarily need if 2/3 of the power is generated locally then you're actually cutting

that middleman out and that's the saving that you can pass on this this is it and and and we don't you know we don't view this as we're trying to cut out the networks we want to we work we want to work further with the networks I think

they've got a um they've got a big job to do in the next decade to make sure we can keep the lights on and there's a good balance within our grid and that's going to require a significant amount of investment um and that that that in in a

way that's where your energy Bills going right now you're paying for the Investments of the infrastructure two-thirds of that so if we think about if the energy Market was 0 there is still a benefit here because the cost of

the infrastructure of getting energy to your home is actually really expensive and uh and that's you know that's that's part of being in a very big country and you know that's something we have to

doal with now let's say um I'm back wearing my in customer hat yeah and I've got two 10 year olds and I'm dreaming about an EV but I can't afford it yet

but I hear there's a model coming out that's going to be affordable in 2 years time I hear Tesla is coming down with a $30,000 car yeah um and how do you size

my system now do you size it for my teenage daughters in four years time and the fact that I'm going to have an EV in four years or are you giving me a small system now and then suddenly I'm not going to have enough yeah good question

so we think about not having enough there's a there's we size it based on today's usage profile um of the generation size of the solar system um

we are getting to a point there is the cost of energy during the day time is very very very cheap um meaning that like you know having a very large solar system doesn't actually benefit anyone

down the line do use go back to your question if someone bought an electric car and their load was to increase or their usage was to increase sorry um we could actually increase the battery size so we could be charging the batteries

from the grid during the daytime whilst the solar is coming into um and in the electricity is cheap when the electricity is cheap to then benefit the

uh uh yeah the Char charger at night time correct so um we're actually running a a a pilot right now in South Australia which is battery only so there this is for homes that can't put solar

on there too much shade or don't have a roof um we are triing the piece of putting a battery on the side of your wall and then be able to charge it from the grid during the daytime because they have so much you know so much solar we

SP about negative events and where you know they the retailer can take benefit of this too and then the customer doesn't have to pay these really expensive Peak rates and I think this is where Australia is getting to where the

cost of energy in the evening is going to be so high that you need to work out you know to to use energy at different times of the day because of you know the the factors that are happening within a grid so what you're saying is because

there's a lot of solar generated in the middle of the day our manufacturing has slowed down we don't have anywhere for it to put we need more battery capacity you put a battery on the house buy the

electricity when it's cheap and then sell it to them back at night but at a lower price that they would have to pay from the energy retailer bottom yeah

you've been pretty smart about this yeah we've been a is that all you or is that team I've got an amazing team uh look it's I think it's there is so many problems facing us within the energy

industry it needs it needs innovators it needs problem solvers to look at these in isolation and trial things and I think you know we haven't been scared of trialing we've we've tried public EV charging stations we've Tri just general

EV charging solar and Battery Hot Water Systems we're tring a few things here and there and I think all of these we call this Dr distributed energy resources and they all have a role to

play in the future of energy uh and that's you know we that's the space that we're working in to really help the retailer energy retailer have a cheaper cost of Supply which means cheaper

energy to the customer resulting in cheaper bills to the end user but how would you describe how you influence the evolution of the energy sector by the energy energy sector

getting more involved behind the meter um behind the meter meaning anything from where your meter is to the grid anything happens behind it the energy retailer today doesn't get involved from

what happens behind that meter they need to in the future and we are influencing that by giving the tools to the energy retailers to do it now I

we we are in such a energy crisis we're in we're we're transitioning to renewable which is great it's the right thing to do but we are going to be

troubled by these random peak of Demands of energy at different times if a retailer has no control of that they won't they they won't have a business they need to do more uh to be able to

see what's happening in their customer's home and I I won't go too it's not too like in the home and too private it's purely around managing the so rooftop solar managing the battery maybe

managing your hot water system though those are probably the most you know EAS accessible systems that they can access to control and make sure that you have cheaper cheaper bills so yeah how we

want to influence it is given the tools to the energy retailers um just on a on a really important note we have we have 21 gwatt of rooftop solar uh within our

grid you know that's you know that's a huge amount of of of Generation Um that's that's just running around it's it's not controlled not controlled no one's managing it and and we talk about

the infamous duck curve that's just getting bigger and bigger which means in the middle of the day we got all these solar there's no use for it often um that's why the feeding tffs are going

down and and it just means we need more batteries we need more batteries and we need to control this generation it's great we've got the Generation Um we need to get better forecasting when the generation's happening I think there's some incredible companies out there

doing that at the moment um a cloud passes over a whole city all of a sudden your generation just falls off so I think there's a lot of work that's happening there it's about more how you control it and controlling you have to

be able to have that like it's a battery it's the the battery is the Arbitrage piece it's so you can stop the energy in that in that battery you can then push it out later on and I think that's

that's the game Cher that's just about to happen um and that's why we hear about virtual power plants and and all these other yeah I guess ter yeah but but haven't we let the genie already out

of the bottle by installing this 3 and a half million solar systems without any reference back to the grid I mean solar has really been sitting on the grid

creating problems for it but haven't really contributed in its ability to be controlled to the Future Solutions correct and the government is still giving the rebate out to make it worse I

don't think it's a government here that are are really you know responsible to be honest I I I think we've we we the industry hang hang on hang on at the

bottom part government is supplying the rebate the rebate was the result that we have so many solar systems but there was never a condition attached to it that

you should maybe buy a battery as well or have ability to control the solar system so now we've got the electricity being generated at the wrong time of the

day and the whole thing is in a big mess why isn't the government's fault come on they gave the money in the first place yeah look I think I think it's a it's an overall

it's an overall piece of of the the targets that we have in Australia and and you know we have the clean energy regulator that have designed the stc's the small scale technology certificates

um that enabled customers to buy these asset the these rooftops um cheaper Battery Technology wasn't where it is right now five years ago yeah three

years ago so so I think there's been a a development of technology to to catch up um but there is no excuse that right now that that has to change we have the technology it's there it's built it

works we have we have good policies in place I believe of of being able to subsidize certain systems there could be more sure but someone has to pay for that tax you know that's coming out of

our our tax money it's coming out of our energy bills as I quoted earlier $200 of your energy bill is paying for for a carbon for for the STC or for the in the

c um so I I think there there's there are Frameworks in place what I disagree fully is that we rely on people to buy it themselves the energy is not an

individual commodity it is a collective we we didn't build a power station for one home we' built a power station for tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of home we don't need to look at

renewable being about one home in isolation that's the that's a mistake I believe that we did um and I really believe this is why nrn business model is here today I I I think we're going to

other countries can look at us and go let's not do what Australia did uh over the last decade because they have really we've we've we've got a big problem with our grid so are you kind of as a company

advocating for a green Energy Solution and for more sustainability and how you do that yeah well this is what is it it's uh going back to the word

Collective um you know energy retailers need to be advocating further more about the transition to renewable but they've got bigger problems on their plate uh right now to try and work out how they

can how they can provide a cheaper cost of power so they can keep a customer base so going back to advocating green and Energy Solutions like we are going to the energy retailers going here is a

solution it's it's TurnKey for you it's packed up it's it's in a nice little box present it to your customer and we're going to make sure that that is it's it's working for you financially it's

working for everyone um and you know I I they're not just becoming an insurance broker they're actually part of this uh part of this transition with us but most people hate the in retailer yeah so

you're trying to make the nfg retailer becoming nice again well they have a job they have a they have a very important job if we want to continue if we want to get electric cars if we want to go home and turn the lights on we need an energy

retailer and I don't think we should be working against them we should be working with them but collectively they should be working closer with with their with their customer base um this is why

we have a strong belief of it's It's a carrot approach and not a stick approach the retailers shouldn't be sending contra tracks out locking people in not at all it's uh incentivizing people to

stay with that company because they are doing the right thing and I think that's something we're advocating for and we are providing for energy retailers right so how is your business model in some

way kind of matching what's emerging in that whole energy sector I think it's it's complimenting and hopefully it should accelerate everything that's happening in the energy sector um we

think about the future of energy um the future of energy is isn't just I generate power I put it into the into the poles and wires and I I turn on the

light and I delivered it the the the future of energy is using AI using optimization um algorithms to make sure

that our our grid is being powered effectively our homes are receiving the power it needs to and and all that technology again is there today so you

know we we're bringing that forward we we we're bringing it to an energy retailer and giving them full control of these rooftop solar and Battery Systems that they've never had before right so

when you walk into an energy retailer and actually tell them about nrn how are you being received are they seeing you as a competition are they saying oh thank God you know I was

waiting for you I mean what's the reception yeah at the beginning it was like this is a little bit bizarre but I I think it's it's proof is always in the

pudding thankfully we we uh diamond was was Fant it is still very fantastic to work with and and and was it's always been a leader within this this transition towards renewable so I think

now others are starting to see this and start to go we need to think outside the box because we're just selling energy like everyone else um so yeah it's been really well received and we're excited

to see what we can do in the next year so you've been going for a while um any customer success stories yeah quite a few um like and and when we when we

first when we first started to go through our proof of concept stages we got a different different range of customers so from uh a customer that

yeah that a homeowner really challenging the cost of living um we then have renters that joined we then have the $3 million house that that that came on

board and and some businesses now out of all those different uh backgrounds everyone sees a different uh reason to why they they joined us but the success

has been really really good um you know those who are going through cost of living crisis to save 800 bucks a year is is fantastic like it's like why wouldn't you do that you're not using the space on your roof you're are you're

increasing the value of your home Nob brainer but then again those who you know the the business uh that did join us they uh they've saved nearly they're

saving up towards $8,000 a year and they spent nothing on the system they are using 65% of renewable now within that and they are very very happy I guess

partners of us and uh we're looking forward to getting more more businesses on board as well not only do I save on my electricity bill but if nrn rolls out a th000 systems or 10,000 system in a

particular region then you're also creating extra stability to the grid so would that also mean that maybe future electricity price Rises will be a bit less because there's actually less need

for grid expansions yeah look wa we we would love to think that would be the way forward um but you got to be really big by then we have to be really big and

and I think the the the networks are looking at this though most networks now have a a a future energy team who are exploring what different options are there instead of just spending more

money on upgrades and upgrades and upgrades um I I don't think it's going to um it won't reduce the cost because the the the money's already been spent on the current infrastructure um but

hopefully uh we would like to think that we could uh we could save money down the line because we don't need to buy the required infrastructure might

well um are there some specific improvements that you have as samples where people have been able to put extra infrastructure in or anything like that

uh because of the involvement with nrn um little hint I'm thinking about the MTA and the public charger and stuff like that so um have you kind of customers where because of them going

with nrn there was actually a wider benefit to The Wider Community yeah definitely so as as part of one of our commercial customers with the motor Traders Association and being within the

automobile industry um there is a there is a future where the automobile industry is now collaborating with the energy industry because of the uh the adoption of electric cars um so we we installed a very large solar system

large battery but we also actually installed a public EV charging station to charge cars from the solar system you know like and I think this was this was

a trial to understand will a energy retailer be comfortable licensing a a system like this from us uh and an uncharging cost then to the to the users

and it's been a hyper success we've um you know we we're seeing above 12 to 15 charges a day uh on that site and the public are are just using it it's

powered you know there's a there's a solar system that's on top depending on the time of day they're using they're charging the cars could be pired by solar or or out of the battery if it's

after hours correct yeah yeah there is still a grid a good Demand on site there but um yeah I think there's there are different ways that we're looking now at how are we further looking Beyond just a

solar and a battery system and I think this is going to really align with our solar retailer partners because that's that's more work that they they're able to to to create per customer that they

get on board so if I for example now if I'm a carard there's obviously a lot of electric cars coming down the track that I haven't really been thought even how

to incorporate all that but I will need possibly electric charging stations on my lot so if the mo if it worked for the motor Trader Association it could work

for a lot of car yards couldn't it is that one of your target markets it's it's it's not a Target I think you know we we look at the market as it's every it's everyone we we need to democratize

so you know yes they would be more favorable of getting a evv charging station than um a different type of business but I I think there's it's just further options that we want to include

within our offering to to end users but the MTA model was the charging station also supplied without cost that's correct there was no so if I be a carard I suddenly get my solar system I get a

battery I get my EV charger and I'm not out of pocket and do I then make money out of the EV charger that I charge my customers to charge or is that a complimentary thing at the MTA at the

moment no it's it's a complimentary component but what they do get is cheaper bills say they you know we're seeing savings on that site beond $88,000 a year um so they they're just

having access to cheaper rates uh and I guess the other side of the benefit is that the public that are charging their car at that station it makes money for the energy retailer so the energy

retailer can then reduce their cost to the MTA or the the the the customer uh to provide them cheaper power so you're just diversifying your your income streams to benefit the end user so what

are your future plans well future plans it's about building up this network as large you know so so we we are on the road right now speaking to many solar

retailers across the country uh that's all about National coverage to make sure that we have a Workforce on the ground and helping their business uh building more energy plans to giving more

customers more Choice um and then yeah really really growing out the um uh the the customer base here in Australia now I I talk about that's just Australia but

outside of here there is a big issue um in every country every country is going through this transition we're just a far ahead out of everyone else I really believe we are and we're facing challenges that countries are four or

five years away from seeing so I think we are going to position oursel and set up to to enter into these countries when they start to see the issues that we're facing today so you're saying we're

ahead because Australia has already got the three 3 and2 million solar systems which is a much higher penetration of solar compared to many other countries

is it and so we're learning out of that curve that we then can put that learning to other countries correct there's not there's there's probably I could count on a one hand um you the amount of

countries that have experienced negative uh Market events Europe faced it for the first time a year or two ago you know and and and I think it's just going to

get worse and worse as um as gr and right right so how you preparing yourself and evolving to face those challenges and those opportunities going

forward it's every day I talk to the team about is what we're doing today scalable and it's not we don't just want to help one or two people or 100 people

or even a thousand people we we are looking Beyond hundreds of thousands of homes globally so what are we today we're preparing to make sure our systems

are legal framework our financing everything is scalable so it's a copy and paste to hit into another country we know what the trigger points are we've learned this this model works really

well in Australia's climate today it didn't work four three or four years ago and we we we've hit that crossover point so we'll we'll be observing the other countries and understanding when they

start to cross over um but it's all about scale because uh it's yeah we want to make as much impact as we possibly can okay so there's a big future there's

a big future it's a lot to do yeah it's a it's a very big Vision uh I think it's an attractive proposition you rightly said it's not every day we have the opportunity to to help everyone in our

supply chain everyone in our in our stakeholder Circle wins um and I think this is a very replicable business model um outside of Australia what's your

biggest uh hurdle in selling such a great proposal sounds too good to be true and and it's it's Pro it now that that people are saving this much money

that they are getting the benefits you um we always have this sense of we must own we must own I I think that's a hurdle too like like do you really need to own this do

you need to pay for your electricity Upfront for the next 10 years no not really um so yeah so so it's it's I think there's a lot of Education a lot

of trust building the solar industry is not got the best reputation um but it works so you actually your biggest enemy is the cynic in people of who have heard

other people being burned by solar and then just wondering when you come in with a great offer they're looking for that hook yeah correct yeah so that and and

that's why we feel a great opportunity is working with the local solar retailer who is known in your area they did your your cousin's home and your parents home

or so forth like they they can be educated on about our product and they can Firs handly go and promote this within their Network we we got one solar

retail partner that um basically brought his whole family on board and I think that's that's really a significant amount of trust to say they've they've done their due diligence they understand the model uh because when we first spoke

to these Partners they were like oh sounds too good to be true too um but that but it's it's very clear where the benefits are and um yeah where is but look I mean now to put a reality check

on it you're not promising Bill free moments for the rest of your life you're just producing A reduced Bill and they people still have to pay something for it so there's really just in a middle of

cost of living crisis there's a specific tangible benefit I can get yeah but it's not a free for- all there's still a payment to be made the bills still have

to be paid but you do get quite clear benefits yeah exactly that and I think we uh we we miss that when we go to you know you buy a solar and Battery system for

$20,000 and you don't have you have a very small bill so you should because you just spent $220,000 you paid energy for the future uh to to reduce your bill here there there's not that there's just

cheaper Bill and money in your pocket from so if you don't have 20 grand but still want a cheaper electricity bill yours is the option correct from an nrn philosophy how would you describe the

whole company it's about fairness I I think we we have a role to play uh we have our our garden to to to stay in um but we need all of our neighbors to work

with us and I'm saying this is going there are there are different stakeholders within our business model to make this work there is the investor there is the solar retail there's the

energy retail and the customer we can't do everything we we work with other companies and help their business become successful with us um so yeah I think collaborative working with other

companies is is a really strong ethos of us um fairness is is 100% like number one as well it's it's everyone has to have an equal benefit

across uh across the supply chain um and it's it's also just it's around the democratization it's it's changing the

way that the the that rooftop solar has been viewed as a middle class or a high or a rich available for the rich essentially you don't have a house you

can't benefit from solar correct you're breaking that that mold we are do you have had any solar retailer background and experience as I stepped into the solar industry I had to learn it was

about solving the end customers problem which how do we remove the cost barriers of them accessing it we had to learn firsthand about the customer first so we uh we set up a solar retailer we

launched in Victoria as part of the Victoria homes program uh and it was very successful uh we we installed over 600 homes within the first year um but that that helped then fund

this Venture and I took a lot of learnings around we just felt like we were chasing the next Cale to pay a salary how do we make a a sustainable business through in this uh through the

solar uh sector and that's exactly what went away and done so you got your hands dirty in the industry you understood all the aspects and then you kind of remodeled it to find something that creates winner winner winner and we were very close to becoming an energy

retailer our and doing that aspect and it was a very clear guide to say no it's it's we don't need to take all on like we need to work with what's there today

and and partner rather than um be the whole of Australia is at the moment hearing that we have to get out of gas and the homes have to be more electrified and all of that and I think

to a lot of people it's kind of all a little bit much can you explain all what the plan is and what the Govern wants us to do yeah definitely I think Victoria definitely taken a first uh big lead in

this uh no new homes are allowed to have gas connection I think that's that's a huge huge step in the right direction about electrification um how we how we start taking gas away is going to be

interesting over the next decade it's it's definitely part of the plan as we as we decarbonize um but now we need to think about everything in a home relies on electricity so the importance of uh

stability in our grid stability in our networks is becoming more and more critical um and again it's not just the the internal um like my my my oven being

powered by gas it's it will be electric but it's the cars too it's everything is on that electrification Journey so the the energy sector needs to do a lot to uh to to be involved in this in this

transition too but if the electricity is from a cire power station then I haven't really improved the situation at all no correct and that's that's the role now is is changing the fuel mix of uh of

generation we're doing we're doing well uh there's more that could be done for sure uh but it's not it doesn't happen overnight you can't turn off a call five power station tomorrow and that's the end of it it's it's a it's called a

transition for a reason now let's say I'm ready you've sold me I want a cheap electricity bill it didn't take you too much to convince

me that that was a good idea but um what are the key terms in the contract you know the little fine print that I might not like are there any specifics that really you you want to point out look

you are you are in agreement with us for for a 10year period um there's no cost for that 10year period it's all paid by the energy sector um the ask that we do have is is that you use our solar sorry

our energy retailer Partners I'm going to repeat that one again yeah okay um let's say you've convinced me to go with nrn I do like a cheap electricity bill you didn't have to twist my arm to go

with that but uh in your contract are there the kind of Clauses that I really should be aware of yeah look there every contract has a different types of Clauses but we're very open and

transparent of making sure it's very clear um the agreement is a 10-year agreement uh to to be able to participate in our Network and have the system installed there is no cost to

that agreement um essentially because being paid by our energy retailers the ask is that you do use our energy retailers because they'll pay for that system the biggest benefit for you though is that that 10-year agreement is

a maintenance agreement and we will make sure that the system that we install in your home is being looked after and managed um you can buy any time I think that having that flexibility is really

key um it gets cheaper month on month from day one um you can transfer the to the to the new owners um in case you sell your house in case you sell your house correct um and then you do have a

level of responsibility um you need to make sure that you're not touching the system or playing around with it or just the normal terms that could actually um you know cause a hazard with the with

the system is is a battery is a solar there's is power um and then the the other Factor oh within the agreement I'm so sorry no no no no that's fine uh

don't play with it um but obviously because you have to recoup the money that you spend on the first place for the system you do need a certain period like 10 years as security to be able to

recoup your funds if somebody decides to take your free system go for a ride and two years later turn it back um at that point in time you wouldn't have returned your money so I get it why you would

have to have a longer contract period makes sense y yeah definitely and again it doesn't cost you anything it's being paid by your energy retailer which I think that's the that's the huge hug

benefit here is sure you have got an agreement in place to look after the system but it's it's not paid by you if for whatever reason one day I want to

stop using nrn um what does a contract say about that yeah you can you can buy at the system uh there's uh just as you would today you go to market it's uh it's all market cost from day one and

then every month it gets cheaper and cheaper and cheaper uh we we can facilitate that for you we we can yeah make that transition very easy um and it just adds value to your home so I could

theoretically start off not buying the system have the solar have the cheaper Bill and then one day for whatever reason I decide I want to give it a hug and own it um you will be selling it to

me at not at an inflation price no get price would normally be okay fair enough good and um the day it gets onto my roof

yeah who owns the system and who is responsible for it so and ourn will own that system uh and we are responsible for making sure it's working we don't get paid at by the energy retailer if

your system is not working um there is a maintenance contract that's set with your local solar installer to make sure it's working um but fundamentally nrm will own it until the time that if you

wanted to own it you can you can buy it from us it's not a problem in regards to nrn how long have you been operational what are some of the big achievements yeah we've been around for you know four

years ago we stepped into the industry started to try and build out the the the concept the model of removing the cost barriers um look the biggest achievement has been identifying that a customer

saves money and it can commercially work for an energy retailer we can all sit around spreadsheets and workout numbers but nothing's better than seeing cash in and cash out uh and that's that for us has been one of our biggest uh biggest

achievements with customers who've actually had real savings on their electric dble wouldn't they be shouting it off to the rooftop to their friends and all that do you have a referral program yeah we do and we actually pay

them for that too uh we we pay around $200 for every customer that does refer and it's it's what we have natural growth through that at the moment because they are seeing the benefits and

the savings um so they do tell their friends family members Neighbors when the system gets installed am I up for any payment or so there's literally no cost there's no financing there's yeah

there's no cost is there cost to the contract no cost to the contract at all sometimes you do a home loan and they all these little extra Nitty Gritty fees

that they drag out of your nose you know have you been very creative in that field yeah no we haven't at all we it goes back to the core of we we don't believe that people should be paying money for these systems it should be

given to us I didn't have to pay for a power station why do I need to pay for having renewable what's involved in the installation how quickly does it take it takes let's say a day for a standard

installation um it's very very clean we we work with very good um solar retailers uh and and installers uh generally they're all in-house installers too so they they there's a

lot of pride in in their work quality uh they do have to submit an inspection form and we inspect and audit that as well ourselves so we we have another layer for for the quality assurance um

it's not a lot of time that there is uh once it's installed we then need to get the metering configured that can take two or three weeks um and then you're on to the new plan so uh there are there

are systems in place or be becoming in place where that could be a lot more streamlined but uh when you're working with many different stakeholders it can uh can get quite complex but it's it's a

real yeah it's pretty quick and easy but basically my savings start from the time the meter is installed that's correct yeah let's say I've got a really small electricity bill yeah and I want it get

even smaller but overall my consumption is maybe so low that it doesn't even justify a Sol on a battery system do you sometimes have to say to people look we need a certain amount of electricity

used otherwise the whole system doesn't work yeah look we do at this point in time uh we we have a minimum so it's around 15 kilowatt hours a day which would be a standard home with two

bedrooms which use that much um and look the real reason is is you rightly said it's about using the energy that is generated from your system and if not using power then it kind of doesn't

really work now down the line uh there is an opportunity that even if you did have a very small bill that those systems can be installed in your home because they can integrate into a larger virtual power plant but that's um that

will be in in the years to come and so when I get build is nrn send me the electricity bill or is it still my energy retailer who's billing me no so you don't you don't get a bill from at

all you get build by the energy retailer uh just like your uh energy bills that you have today exactly the same just cheaper which is great um nrn is really there to help if there's any problems um

like if your system's not working or you you have either questions or your concerns you can contact us directly if not you've got your solar um retailer that helped you install uh and they they're local to your to your home as

well and so let's say if I'm in a certain area let's make it Sydney or Melbourne and I'm consider going with you yeah do I then get from different energy retailer their offers of what I

would save and so I can choose what would suit me better is that how it works that's correct yeah if you um if you spoke to one of our um solar retailers they would give you some options about what energy retailer can

offer you different prices and they'll they'll walk through with you about how that works so yes you'll be able to then compare and which is the best option for you all right I'm sorry for the question

but what would happen to my system and my whole setup if you guys go out of business yeah really good question look we've isolated everything in that in that worst case scenario um so your your

system is owned by one of our companies uh and if if our operating company wasn't there tomorrow because of a certain reason hopefully that never happens um your system is protected because that

is then um outlined with the investor who funded that system because there is a maintenance agreement with a third party being a solar retailer your system

is still uh able to keep um working and being used it just means that nrn um the operating business of it just may not be there but look we we've set everything out to say if that does happen you don't

need to worry you're not your system is not going to removed from your home it's business as usual for you and you're just going to keep saving money okay now are you able to get all these benefits because you're buying your

solar and your battery very cheap and you use the cheapest battery in the cheapest solar system no not at all not at all so we um it's it's is we use good quality systems uh is really important

um if you if you buy cheap systems you end up spending more money uh down the line so good quality systems is key but also we we also pay us the solar retailer a really good margin and and a

and a good when I say margin a good um a good fee for doing a very good installation on on on your home uh so yeah it's it's not about how do we pay

the cheapest possible because I just don't think that's a ethical way or a sustainable way of running a business because basically the more electricity that system generates in some way the

and the battery Etc in some way for your business model the better it is isn't it yeah that's correct yeah if it's down it's not good at all we don't get paid so um yeah we've had to put um some

we we we've really taken the choice of of quality as key uh in in the manufacturers and products but also from the installation component and we have a

very very robust qu um QA uh so quality assurance process uh once the site has been installed as well is there a monitoring system that comes with the system so I can actually see what I'm

using yeah def definitely there is yeah so every every technology we install uh during the battery or the inverter um has a portal for you to to track the generation and the usage from the system

um which is it's really good like it kind of helps you with when you want to use power or not but you're 100% spot on because you haven't invested in the system and it's managed by the energy retailer there's a little bit

less really Reliance on you monitoring it because we're doing that dayto day for you anyway but if it's for your own um uh self your own satisfaction yeah

that's it so then then you can you can monitor it 100% I think in Australia overall out of the 3 and a half million syst systems what people forget there's one and a half million that are really

small older style system where people look at replacing them so if I got a small system what are my options to upgrade to an nrn system yeah we have a

lot of systems being removed at this point um and it's it is the smallest syst it's the one two kilowatt systems um it basically we remove the system let's upgrade it to the latest

technology um there's no reason to keep it there on site um it's at the end of the you're not seeing a lot of benefit from that system you might be on a um a premium feeding tariff uh from from a

while ago they're just about to run out in certain States so I I think here a is a really good time then to start looking and researching about what what's that next step for you um but yeah we we have

a lot of um people that come our Direction they want to remove their six or seven or eight panels on their roof and uh and get a brand new um system installed with a battery you've come in

today I mean normally when we have people coming for the podcast they um they sell us a product um there's an advantage there's a disadvantage I haven't really been able

to find the disadvantage in your model good means we did our job right so I mean you get a cheaper electricity bill yeah you got the bragging right of

a solar and Battery system yeah um you can also monitor what you're doing so you can kind of influence the behavior you're helping to stabilize the electricity

grid and all in the middle of a cost of living crisis where you've been looking for something to reduce your costs yeah um I think you're going to be very busy yeah no I think so too I think we've set

a we set a really good foundation to to how we can now grow we've done it very we haven't ran at it we've done it very slowly and learning and testing um but we're now ready to go so yeah you built

the foundations we've got the foundations they're ready yeah build the house thank you so much thank you very interesting thank you please support the channel by liking

the video hit that subscribe button and ring the bell and check out all our other videos Want More Energy answered visit your energy anwers.com for Quality Energy Products tools and calculators

and find your quality local installers you're still here I'll see you next time bye