Alex Hormozi: How To Make So Much Money You Question The Meaning Of It

You can build something very big in about 5 to seven years. And the problem is most people spend that same 5 to seven years reliving the same 30 days over and over again. You have to stay in

that painful place. Staying in the pain is what gives you the catalyst to learn how to get out of pain.

Please welcome a serial entrepreneur, best-selling author, and the mind behind a 100 million business portfolio, Alex Hormosi.

What's that number one misconception you hear when people are thinking about building a business and you go that's the issue?

I think they conflate sequence. A lot of people who are wanting to make money believe that the making money comes from investing. Investing is the last thing

investing. Investing is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do.

How do you get over the block of I don't want to work for free?

I actually think it's entitlement.

You're not working for free. You're

learning and then you're earning.

Should you do what you love for money and love what you do?

I think this is big myth number two.

People fail not because there's some magical list nobody has. They fail

because it's an obvious list nobody does.

It's the obvious list. If you were trying to get in shape, you know you should eat less and you should move more. You already know what you're

more. You already know what you're supposed to do. The question is why you aren't doing it.

What do you think is the number one emotion that people don't know how to control that leads to failure?

Fear.

The number one health and wellness podcast.

J Shetty.

J Shetty. the one, the only J Shetty.

Alexi, I've been looking forward to this interview for a long, long time. My

friends are fans. I'm a fan. And I know we were in touch like maybe even a couple of years ago now it's been, but I'm so happy to be at the holy grail of acquisition.com. I saw the big logo

of acquisition.com. I saw the big logo when I walked in. Congratulations on

everything you've been up to and I'm so glad to introduce you to my audience, some of who I'm sure follow you already and love your work. And then I'm hoping you get a ton of new fans and a ton of new people being impacted through this as well. So, thank you so much for doing

as well. So, thank you so much for doing this.

Well, thank you so much for having me and I've been I'd say I mirror it right back. We've been I've been looking

back. We've been I've been looking forward to talking because I think there's there's so much good stuff that I think is going to happen. So, I'm very excited.

I love it. Alex, I want to start with asking you something that I've been thinking about a lot when I'm talking to people today and it's when I think about my community, my audience who's listening right now.

What are you going to unblock for them?

When you if someone read all your books, listen to your podcast, listen to today's podcast, what are they going to unblock that's been tripping them up, keeping them behind or holding them

back? I think they would have clarity on

back? I think they would have clarity on what actions were required to get what they wanted and then at that point they would only have to just think like why am I not doing it which is a separate

conversation but there's a lot of confusion I would say around like what are the things that are required in order to create a business in order to create an income I would say that I'm an objectivist and so I just look at what

are the things that are observable and I think a lot of time people spend inside their heads trying to think about manifesting and energy and all of this stuff when it's like we got to let people know about the stuff we have. We

got to have something to sell and we got to make sure that what we're charging costs less than than it costs to deliver it. And we try and do that as many times

it. And we try and do that as many times as we can. And so each of those pieces obviously has frameworks behind them.

But they're all tied to one thing which is just what actions are required. And

that's been the single pervasive frame in my life that has made navigating reality significantly easier for me cuz I was very confused coming up and I was like, I don't know what any of this is.

and I read all these self-help books and and I felt more confused after the 10th book than I did on the first book and and then it was just like okay what do I have to do and then that is kind of what has started this journey for me.

What's that number one misconception you hear when people are thinking about building a business making money changing their financial situation?

What's the number one thing you hear and you go that's the issue? I think the conflate sequence is probably the first and biggest thing because a lot of people who are wanting to make money believe that the making money comes from

investing and investing is the last thing you do, not the first thing you do. And so one of the things is they'll

do. And so one of the things is they'll look at people who are at the end of their careers and say, "Okay, well these guys are making all these, you know, these bets, right? I if I if I just bought this memecoin or I just bought Bitcoin in 2013, I'd be super rich." But

it actually doesn't take into consideration what a decision-making process like that would create, which is if you took a swing at every type of Bitcoin, because you can't just say, "I would only pick this one." You'd have to say, "I'd pick every single super long shot." It's like we probably would have

shot." It's like we probably would have lost them 99 of the other bets.

And so it's like we have to take it in aggregate. And so I would say making

aggregate. And so I would say making active income cool again uh rather than the passive bet and really just gambling um is probably the the first thing that that people mess up is that they're they

somehow think that working or active income is not scalable when in reality the people who have the most money typically have tremendously high incomes and it's because of the excess of cash flow from that income are they able now

to make big swings with riskier bets that sometimes pay off and sometimes don't. But you can't take those swings

don't. But you can't take those swings unless you have more cash flows coming in from the things you do every day.

You know what? No one's ever said it that well, like from everyone I've spoken to. And I'm so glad you pointed

spoken to. And I'm so glad you pointed it out because I completely agree. I

have so many friends who when they saw the rise of crypto or whatever it was, jumped in with a large sum of their life savings because they heard of a friend of a

friend of a friend who'd made a killing.

Put it all in there. A week later it dropped by like 10k. They pulled it all out. The next week it went up double

out. The next week it went up double like and and it was just a mess. And so

many of them lost like 10 20 30 40,000 dollars.

And it's all because you're thinking that's the way to get there and it's cooler and it's smarter and like you're a genius if you And you're right. Actually,

everyone I know that's made amazing money on any of that already had tons of money and it was play money for them.

Yeah. So it just changed into this. So

what's happening there? Why is it that we've been led down this thought process and how do we get out of it?

I mean I think it's fundamentally the something for nothing fallacy of like how can I get rich quick? How can I do it really easily? And um basically the more it feels like luck is usually where you should have your first red flag. If

you I mean I have a belief that if you control all the variables then you can predict the outcome. Now, we don't always control all the variables in any given situation, but the greater number of variables we control, the greater

influence we have over the outcome. And

if you're getting into something like this and you're like, I actually don't even know what the variables are. Then

it's like, you are you are 100% gambling. And so, this is your life

gambling. And so, this is your life savings. Would you put it on black at

savings. Would you put it on black at the casino? Probably not. This is really

the casino? Probably not. This is really not that different than that. Except at

the casino, you have no nods at least right here. It's like you have no idea.

right here. It's like you have no idea.

And typically by the time especially Genpop uh kind of retail investors find out about something it is the peak and it is too late. And so you have to be at the very beginning of these if you want

to be speculative, which I wholeheartedly am not a big fan of speculative investments in general because it's basically the greater fool theory, which is what they call it in the investment world, which is just like we just keep selling to the greater and greater fool until sometime somebody is

the greatest fool of all and then it drops, right? And so I prefer to think

drops, right? And so I prefer to think about instead of thinking of investments and active income, I think of just money per unit of time. And that kind of takes out this binary or what I would consider

a false binary of active and passive and think well and I I I feel like I can prove this pretty clearly which is we live in time and we collect money in that period of time. And so

fundamentally all we want to do if we want to increase our income is just think what are we earning per unit and this is where again bad piece of advice is like never sell your time. It's like

okay well if someone gave you a billion dollars for an hour would you not sell that? I would, right? And so, it's a

that? I would, right? And so, it's a question of how much is your time worth?

And then that creates a much more actionable uh decision-making framework of is this worth it or not? And to lad up to the active versus passive, it's how active is it versus how passive is

it? And it's my belief that nothing is

it? And it's my belief that nothing is passive because there's always going to be a certain amount of if you're doing it right. Let's say if you you made one

it right. Let's say if you you made one passive investment, if you're doing it the right way, you probably should have looked at a hundred deals and all of that took time. And all of that takes diligence. And then after doing all this

diligence. And then after doing all this analysis, then you decide to make this investment. And so to say that it's

investment. And so to say that it's passive, it's like it doesn't take into account all of the research that goes into ahead of time, which is absolutely still work. Now after the investment,

still work. Now after the investment, sure, but there's still time that you're trading by first breaking that idea of like if for in order for me to get rich, it must be something that I don't trade my time for, I think is like big myth

number one. So if we assume that, then

number one. So if we assume that, then we say, okay, I have to trade my time for money because money comes in over time. what are the things that I can

time. what are the things that I can trade my time for that will get me more than I'm currently getting which is a much more solvable problem that also is significantly less risky and so especially when you're trading time we

have some and so we don't we really just risk the time to be like I would I never want to I don't want to sell my I'm not a I'm not a slave it's like calm down we're it's a voluntary exchange and if it's and here's the thing is if you don't think the price is worth it then

don't make the trade and that's one of the beauties of capitalism is it's two parties both saying they'll be better off and so fundamentally I would say the focus of the the content the stuff that I put out is how can I equip people with the skills so that when they trade that

time they get more for it and then continue to trade up and up and up for the rest of their careers.

Yeah. I mean that is that's actually such counterintuitive advice to what I feel has been spreading on the internet for the last two decades of every conversations around passive

income. I feel like every one of my

income. I feel like every one of my friends is addicted to figuring out how they can make passive income and those are the same people that are not making any more money than they already were.

But it's this addiction and obsession with if I figure this out then I won't have I can quit my day job and whatever it may be.

Yeah. And I I've had influence so the my neighbor is um is he owns uh Panda Express and so last time I checked they did $3.7 billion in revenue and they

have about a 27% net margin. So he took home $935 million in personal income not investment income. And so people see his

investment income. And so people see his investment portfolio which is impressive as you can imagine. has been doing it for 45 years and so that starts to add up right?

But the thing is he can only take these kind of bigger swings or bigger bets because he has this very regular cash that he spent 45 years building.

And I would say that what's interesting is that you can build something very big in about 5 to seven years. And the

problem is that I think most people spend that same 5 to seven years reliving the same 30 days over and over again jumping from thing to thing to thing and never actually getting the

root set so that they can pay down their ignorance tax of not knowing enough.

Basically there's I would say there's five stages that most newer entrepreneurs or people who want to pursue income go through. So the first is um what I call uninformed optimism.

So your friend tells you about this thing they made 10 grand on and you're like that sounds amazing. you're

uninformed, but you're optimistic, right? And so then you get into it and

right? And so then you get into it and then all of a sudden you get to uh informed pessimism. So you get in and

informed pessimism. So you get in and then you put your money in and then it drops and you're like, "Wow, this sucks." And then, you know, people are

sucks." And then, you know, people are like, "Buy the dip." And so you're like, "Okay, I'm going to I'm going to put more money in." And so then you get to kind of stage three, which is the value of despair, where you're like, "Oh my god, I've lost so much money. I have no idea what's what's going on right now."

And at stage three, there's kind of a fork. And so either people then go,

fork. And so either people then go, "Well, my other friend told me about this other thing." and they jump back to step one and go to uninformed optimism and then they just they funnel through that loop over and over again. Now to

break through that that dip you have to basically get to stage four which is um informed optimism. So now you understand

informed optimism. So now you understand the rules of the game, you understand the variables at play and it's not as good as you thought it was but you at least get it. And so from there then you can get to achievement which is the

fifth step. But the thing is is that you

fifth step. But the thing is is that you have to stay in that third painful place because staying in the pain is what gives you the catalyst to learn how to get out of pain. And so rather than

trying to pull your parachute, it's like I have to trudge through this so that it forces me to learn the individual skills, the individual variables that affect this outcome. And that means I might have to take 20 more lashings to

finally get it. And then at that point, it starts to tick up. And then that's when you start to become more of an expert, more of a master at something.

Yeah. And if you don't sit in that pain, you're going to keep repeating that cycle with something new. So it was crypto, then it was NFTs, then it was whatever else just keeps going round and round and round. Is that system in this new book?

So this is probably for one chunk above that.

Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.

No, cuz I was um I love the way you break down the journey that we go through in our mind and you do that with multiple things because I think we don't even see it.

Like that pattern you just explained is a pattern you could live for three decades. You've just saved people three

decades. You've just saved people three decades of pain by pointing it out and saying, "Well, this is what you're doing." Yeah.

doing." Yeah.

And here's how to shift that. And I

think people make the mistake where we go, I don't have time to learn, right?

So, I'm going to learn from someone who makes me feel like I can learn it in an hour.

Yeah.

And then I'm going to do it, which still is uninformed optimism. So, how do we learn? Where do we go? How do you build

learn? Where do we go? How do you build that time to say, "How many hours do I need to even learn about this? I'm going

to put money in it." How would you calculate that? If someone was like, I'm

calculate that? If someone was like, I'm going to put in a,000. I'm going to put in a $10,000. How much time should they put to value that amount of money?

So, great question. I would reframe the premise, which would be we we'd still be operating under this as I'm going to put money into something. And so, I would reject the original premise and say, well, if you want to get really good at

something, then why don't we start with skills that generate income? And so, if we follow kind of the the three elements of a business at its most basic form is you have some element of promotion. So

we got to let people know about our stuff. The second element is we got to

stuff. The second element is we got to have a way to convert them. So we have to be able to sell some sort of exchange mechanism. And then finally, we have to

mechanism. And then finally, we have to deliver, right? So track, convert,

deliver, right? So track, convert, deliver. Very easy. Um well, easy to

deliver. Very easy. Um well, easy to easy to say, hard to do, right? Within

each of those things, it's like, okay, well, how do I let people know about my stuff? Or even before that, what stuff

stuff? Or even before that, what stuff do I sell? Right? And so that's where I like to think about it as people try to think, man, there's so many people and and try to boil the ocean. like it's

impossible to try and like try and think what business could I possibly start because you're trying to address the world when it's much easier to say what are the problems that exist in my life and I kind of think of it as the three

Ps like most businesses come out of a passion so something that you're just inherently interested in they come out of a profession so you currently exchange right now you have a job whatever it is and you get paid maybe not as much as you want but you do get

paid uh for exchanging some sort of value with the business and then the third is P which is pain right so there's some deep pain that sometimes you went through. So maybe it's a mom who had to figure out how to um create

non-allergenic food for their kids, right? It's it would be something as

right? It's it would be something as small as that. And so from that those three kind of uh buckets is I think the best starting point for most people who want to start making an income. It's

like okay well if you're inherently interested in this topic it's like can we make can we let people know about stuff around that topic? Can we create solutions around that stuff? Can we

create services which is where I prefer most people start which to be fair in the United States 78% of businesses are service based businesses. And I think it's because they're the easiest to start. You just trade time for money.

start. You just trade time for money.

Very low risk, right? You either get richer or you

right? You either get richer or you don't. But like your your base your base

don't. But like your your base your base is zero. When you have a superior money

is zero. When you have a superior money model, it gives you padding to be bad at everything else because you finally make more money per customer than anyone else does in your space, which means your advertising doesn't have to be as good. You don't

have to be as good at sales. The offer

itself might not necessarily be as good.

But when you sequence these things together properly the right way, then you can unlock skill in the business.

People don't really give up on their dreams. They see what it takes to get their dreams and then decide it's too expensive. I think that if we make who

expensive. I think that if we make who we become the goal rather than the thing we achieve instead of winning once a decade we can win

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shower. Have you seen any metrics in success rates between passion, profession, and pain?

No, I haven't. I that would I really want to know now.

Yeah. The reason why I ask it is because I've been thinking about this for so long and I want to go through each of those because I think they're really I think it's really sound advice.

I used to really believe that everyone should try to do what they love and love what they do.

Yeah.

And I've changed my mind about that.

And I used to believe it very strongly probably like 10 years ago.

Mhm.

Only to then realize that that works great for the 1 to 10%.

Yeah.

But for the majority of people that's going to be really really hard.

Mhm. And recently I was giving the Princeton commencement speech for their graduation and I was thinking about it a lot before I gave that speech because I was like wait a minute these are like

the most talented, smartest people in the country who have everything at their disposal. And I know that even some of these people may not get a job they love

or may never ever build something they love. But guess what? Everyone needs

love. But guess what? Everyone needs

money to survive. Yeah.

So the question is and I want to hear your take on it and I'll reflect back is should you do what you love for money and love what you do?

I think this is big myth number two. So

if we have we start with you know passive versus active is big problem number one. Um number two is follow your

number one. Um number two is follow your passion. I think the reason that this is

passion. I think the reason that this is so espoused I'll start where I think the idea comes from and then kind of break down from there. I think it's because most of those commitment speeches are billionaires or very successful people

and they say follow your passion. But if

we think through what other advice could they give that would be socially acceptable. They can't say you know I

acceptable. They can't say you know I got lucky. They can't say um I worked

got lucky. They can't say um I worked you know super hard cuz people were like sure you know like and so then it's like okay well they're never going to get attacked for saying follow your passion.

But the problem with that is it also assumes that your passion or your interest will never change.

And I mean anybody who's listening to this just think about what you were really interested in 10 years ago. It's

probably different than it is now. And

if you extrapolate that another 10 years, it'll probably be different again. And so if we can think about the

again. And so if we can think about the hypothetical extreme of a really successful person is someone who sticks with the same thing for an extended period of time, which is something that I believe because you learn all the lessons you possibly can in a very narrow field, right? And that you

basically try and make as many mistakes as you can. And if you basically, you know, pay off all the all the ignorance debt you can, it's like you end up just succeeding by default if you just fail every other way. But if you try and if you try and do too many things, you

never actually get to to push the road all the way, you know? trudge through

the mud and get there because you're only learning one or two mistakes in many fields and not many in one.

Yeah.

And so the follow your passion issue is that yeah, number one, the the passions will change. Number two is that

will change. Number two is that sometimes you're passionate about things that people don't value. And the thing is is there's nothing wrong with that.

It's just that it'll be very hard to make an income that way.

The third thing is that I think that it creates an emotionality around business or income, which is that the moment it doesn't feel good that you believe the myth that you should stop.

When I think that Oh, good. you if you and I were to talk

good. you if you and I were to talk about you know the business side of anything there are elements that I love and there are elements that I hate and I see them as both required you know I

would love to maximize one versus the other but it's just the cost of doing business literally but I try to reframe that pain that comes from doing the things that I don't want to do to do the things that I do want to do as the price

tag required to become the person that I want to become and so if we think about the traits of any person so it's like if I want to be patient, then I can't expect things to happen faster, right?

Like, if we were to go to the end of our lives and say, "Hey, I want these character traits." It's like, well, if

character traits." It's like, well, if you had to play a character, you know, in a video game and make them that way, it's like, well, what would you have to put them through in order to get those traits? It's like, well, if you want

traits? It's like, well, if you want patience, then you're not going to get things quickly. If you want to have

things quickly. If you want to have endurance, it's like you have to be able to tolerate suffering, right? If you uh if you want to be wise, it's like you're going to have to get burnt and you're going to have to learn the value of judgment. And sometimes that means

judgment. And sometimes that means you're going to get betrayed in order to learn that pattern. And so it's like we we lament the price tag for the things that we want. And I think that at least

for me, my ultimate, you know, long-term goal is just to become the person that I the best version of me, right? And I

think that in order for that to happen, I will have to go through pain. And so

the follow your passion, you know, moniker also creates this emotionality that gets you to quit when you really are on the right path. And it's just this is just part of it. And so I think those are probably the big three um that

I think about when it comes to why follow your passion doesn't serve most people. And the other I'll say bonus

people. And the other I'll say bonus fourth might be that you might be really good at something and people are very willing to exchange money for that thing and it doesn't mean that you actually have to do the thing that you work on

that you make money on all the hours of the day, right? Like you can work for 20 or 30

right? Like you can work for 20 or 30 hours a week and then have the other 120 to do whatever you want, 130 to do whatever you want. Um, and that's I mean not a bad not a bad thing in my opinion.

Yeah, I I'm that's that's the reason I asked it. And I think even the advice

asked it. And I think even the advice follow your passion doesn't mean focus on your passion, right? Like there's

this confusion with like time. So even

when I think about it in my life when I left the monastery and went to work as a consultant because I needed to pay the bills. Again, a very real decision. Yeah. Because I was 25 years

decision. Yeah. Because I was 25 years old, living in my loft room in my parents' house again and that couldn't last very long.

When I went into that work, I was teaching meditation by lunch. Like in my lunch breaks, in the evenings, I would teach meditation to my colleagues. There

was no demand for it. Two people would show up.

2013, this was meditation and mindfulness were not this global movement. And I was just enjoying

global movement. And I was just enjoying it because I was following my passion.

But I was making money by being a consultant which was trading my time for money.

As I followed that passion more, I got more confidence in it. The market

changed. We're in a very different landscape today 12 years on for there being business opportunities in wellness and health that didn't exist 12 years ago. And so now following my passion for

ago. And so now following my passion for all of that time meant there was a time when I could focus on it. Mhm.

But let's say I had another passion that wasn't monetizable, people weren't interested in at all. I could follow it for years and bring it into my work and bring it into my life and it would be beautiful and I'd be more fulfilled,

but it didn't need to be my thing, right? And so I really really like that

right? And so I really really like that advice and it's something that I I almost want to propagate so hard right now because I I feel just responsible that for so

long we've been telling people to, you know, just do what you love and chase what you love. And it's like, yeah, in your private time and personal time, you should, but but don't think that that has to be the thing you make money from, especially if you have a really obscure

gift.

I 100% agree. I mean, I'm a utilitarian.

I I tend to be very I've probably edged too much on pragmatic. Um, and maybe that's just the im immigrant upbringing of just like how are you going to pay your bills? That's all anyone cared

your bills? That's all anyone cared about.

Well, the funny thing is I had that too.

My parents immigrants, too. But

I I think that there's a I think I got really lucky to figure out what I loved really early.

Yeah.

And I got really lucky that I got to get really good at it really early.

I had this mentor really early on in my career who said never do what you love because then it becomes work.

And so just a completely counter take and this guy was a guy who just had a normal he had three or four stores that he ran and he retired at age 28 and not as a gazillionaire. I think he made something in the neighborhood of

probably like 30 or $40,000 a month, uh, you know, take home. And for 20 years, he did nothing besides collect his money once a month and then he played golf 5 days a week and he got to hang out and

wa and basically be there for the entirety of his kids and he loved that.

And that was that he accomplished he he used to tell me he's like, I slayed the dragon of life. Um, and so what's interesting is that now the that his girls are out of the house, he now is going back and he's back in like, well, what am I going to do now? Right? I

wholeheartedly agree with the the the not following your passion piece. the

the practical translation um might be or at least my my my third myth that I would probably tack on to this as we're building these is um overbelief in idea and underbelief in execution.

Oh yeah, so true.

And so there's two elements to this. So

one is that I think many people who are you know intimidated to start believe that they have to start the next Facebook and you know the Zuckerbergs and the basis of the world are so incredibly rare. The vast majority of

incredibly rare. The vast majority of people who got into business have many many failured and many many failures many many failed businesses uh that that led them to fail into success right and

so uh one is that the idea has to be this big amazing thing and the second is that you shouldn't that the idea itself is is the success right because they'll share with as many people as they can and they almost scratch the itch of

starting when you haven't done anything I say there's basically four steps to starting a business it's like you have to get an LLC you take the LLC to a bank and then you get a bank account and then

you connect that bank account to a payment processor and then you go ask a stranger if you can do something in exchange for money and if you do all four of those things you have a business

that's it right and so a lot of people like spend years being like I'm going to start a business one day it's like you can do it tomorrow literally do all of this tomorrow and then it's like okay well then how do I get the person to exchange money it's

like well you reach out to the people you know right you open your phone you look at the 400 contacts you have there you open up Facebook profile. You have

300 friends. You you look at those friends and then you just say, "Hey," you send a personal video, send a personal text and say, "Hey, I am starting this thing. Um, this is what we're doing. This is what I'm solving.

we're doing. This is what I'm solving.

Uh, do you know anybody?" That's it. And

so, it's not even like you're asking your friends to buy something from you.

And what's interesting though is that 90% of the time, the person who responds is, "Oh, you know, you could do that for me if you want, but that just gives you the easiest way that costs 0." And

because we're all connected with the internet and phones, it's like the barrier to entry has never been lower than it is now. It's just the problem is that um the barrier to distraction is even lower.

What what stood out to me there is the personal text, the video and the email and then the fact that you're asking your friends to introduce you to people who may want it, not asking them directly.

That first part, the amount of emails I get and I'm sure you get as well of people pitching their services to you, but none of them are personalized.

Yeah.

Walk me through the difference of that personal video, that personal because it's it's it's life-changing like when it's done right. So, I mean, these are your friends or at least your contacts that you've met at some point in your

life. And so, trying to recall when you

life. And so, trying to recall when you met that person, literally just stating their name and asking that it's, hey, I'm going to be doing this. And I would say consistency is the currency of credibility. So, what people don't want

credibility. So, what people don't want to do is refer a friend to somebody who's fly by night. But if you can actually just demonstrate that, hey, he's still doing that, the likelihood that they're going to refer someone goes way up because the relational capital is

not nearly at risk. Because if I'm going to introduce somebody to somebody else, I'm risking my social capital on the hope that the third party or whoever is sending this original text is actually going to do a good job. And so you can

also include a little bit of risk reversal in that which is like, hey, I'm doing the first 10 for free and the reason I'm doing it is because I just want to get some testimonials, get some reviews, and also just so that I can learn, too. Um, and I think just being

learn, too. Um, and I think just being really upfront and really being really honest about it makes the stakes feel a lot easier. And so then those first 10

lot easier. And so then those first 10 people, you do exactly that. And the

thing is is that you're going to be better off than they will. For those of you who are like, I don't want to work for free. It's like you're not working

for free. It's like you're not working for free. You're earning and then you're

for free. You're earning and then you're sorry, you're learning and then you're earning. And so we got to go through the

earning. And so we got to go through the learn phase first. And the best way to do it is people who aren't direct connections of yours. Maybe one step step removed. And then at that point,

step removed. And then at that point, they're going to give you very real feedback. And if you do a good job, then

feedback. And if you do a good job, then after a certain point, my goal is to get people to basically shift supply demand in their favor. Like I say the two the two laws of business that I am the most

moved by are supply and demand which is this X right here and then leverage. So

it's a fulcrum for leverage. And so I see those are the two biggest forces in business. And so I want to create

business. And so I want to create artificial demand for somebody who's starting out by just saying we'll do a lot of stuff for free. And then what happens is when you have more no more time to give and if people still want you to do stuff and you say hey I can't

take any more people. If you want you can pay and people like yeah that's fine. And then boom and then you make

fine. And then boom and then you make your first sale. And so, and you'll have confidence because you're like, "Well, I just did it 20 other times." And look at the results from those people. And but

and the first one, you'll be embarrassed about the 19th one, you're like, "Wow, you're going to already pay down 60 70% of all the mess ups that you were going to do."

to do." And then at that point, you're going to start feeling good. And then from there, my way of doing it is just you just keep bumping the price by 20% every five people until eventually people start stop saying yes. And then up we're like,

"Okay, this is the price I can do for now." And that's basically a very

now." And that's basically a very seamless transition into how do I go from nothing to making my first dollar.

How do you get over the block of I don't want to work for free?

I actually think it's entitlement. I

think it's believing that you deserve something for nothing. Like to to flip the flip the rules in reverse. Imagine

somebody comes to you, they've never done anything ever in this particular space and they say, "Hey, will you pay me to do this thing?" Would you immediately, now maybe some people would be like, "Sure." then it's a charity

thing which is different but would you be like you know what I I really believe that this guy is the best person that I can get this problem solved from probably not and so to carry some of that risk for yourself you say I'm going

to front this but if you want to not do it for free thing number one is that you're getting educated so like you're you're getting free education which I see is absolutely valuable the second thing is that you can make terms that

don't necessarily mean that it's free like there's the price and then there's the terms the terms of the agreement can be if you do this with you have to give me feedback uh throughout the entire process and at the end if I do a good

job you leave a review right and on three different formats and leave me a video and leave me you know a text version of it that's now absolutely like I'll say it differently a business owner

they do illegally and and so therefore they're very willing to pay people to leave them testimonials and so if you would be willing to pay $500 to get an amazing testimonial then they're basically you're they've paid you that

$500 but I promise you those first five 10 reviews will make you so much more than they could ever have paid you and not given you a testimonial. So, if we if we flip it and say, "Hey, would you

rather get $1,000 from this person and have them not leave a review versus free and a glowing review?" I promise you, you will make so much more from one glowing review than you will from the $1,000 long term. So, you're just

building up the stockpile, the foundation to then build whatever you want to build on top of it.

Yeah, it's it's really strong advice.

It's I I hope everyone who's listening and watching right now is like going this is what I'm going to do right now like 10 hours for free because that's where we're blocking ourselves.

We don't have the experience and therefore we don't feel comfortable selling more because we don't even know how the service will look.

Right? So you're trying to sell a service and maybe you sold one but you haven't been through the full life cycle of what it feels like to deliver that service.

Now you don't know how many website revisions or edits there's going to be.

You don't know how many app updates there going to be. you have no idea and now you're actually less likely to go sell another one because you're scared that you don't even know if you can do it. And I feel under that entitlement is an insecurity totally

of I don't actually even know how to do this. Like I've got a lot of friends who

this. Like I've got a lot of friends who are like really talented, really skilled, they they actually would do a great job, but because they've never just done 10 clients for free, they don't know how it's going to be if they went and got 100 clients tomorrow.

So they're scared of getting a 100 clients.

Yeah.

Not because they're not capable, but because they haven't taken 10 clients through the process.

So I want to give you something super tactile for the audience.

Yeah please.

Just 10 by 10. So give 10 people 10 hours. And so you can say, "Hey, I'm

hours. And so you can say, "Hey, I'm going to do 10 hours of work for free."

That is a really compelling offer. And

you're going to do it one-on-one and ideally with them. And so if you want to build the website, build it in front of them for the 10 hours so they can give you real-time feedback. If you want to uh you know write email copy, you still

meet with them once a week or not ideally multiple times a week during that so you can pay down that the 10 hours faster. And if you're worried you

hours faster. And if you're worried you can do you can do five people for 5 hours that matters less but it's more that one-on-one so the least scalable thing possible and it's free labor that they can track. The reason that's such a

compelling offer is that everyone even at in in every country even minimum wage has value. Anybody can understand that 5

has value. Anybody can understand that 5 hours of work is a material amount of work that you're choosing to give away for free. And so even if you have no

for free. And so even if you have no expertise, labor at base price is still worth something. And so if you add on

worth something. And so if you add on expertise, it becomes a very compelling offer. But the beauty of that setup of

offer. But the beauty of that setup of having five or 10 hours that you choose to spend is that there's basically if you're doing it oneonone, there's almost no technical, you know, component to it.

You don't have to like build all these calendaring and and schedule. It's just

like you're just going to text those five people, hey, you want to do same time tomorrow. Very simple. And then for

time tomorrow. Very simple. And then for each of those, you know, calls that you'll take with them. Um by the in the very first call, you just say, hey, I want to be clear. What's the problem?

what do you want to you know what do you want to solve and do you mind at the end of the five hours we spend together if this was good if I can tell you about what I do if you just set that that that preframe up front and then you do the

hours on the fifth call or the fifth hour or the 10th hour you say hey remember I said at the beginning I was like has this been good so far it's like awesome let me just recap what we've done over what we've covered and the progress we've made do you feel happy about that great so this is what I think

it would look like cuz also you spent those 5 or 10 hours getting as much information or ammunition from them of all the other problems that you could potentially solve and then at that point says, "Hey, I think that I can solve problem 1, 2, and three. It'll take me

maybe 6 months, but this is what kind of an engagement would look like. How does

that sound to you?" That's all you have to do. And the thing is is that after

to do. And the thing is is that after you give someone 5 or 10 hours, there's so much reciprocity that's built up.

They're like, "Well, shoot." I mean, sure. Now, if somebody on the first call

sure. Now, if somebody on the first call says, "No, I don't want to." Then it's like, you don't you don't even need to like continue. And so, one of the big

like continue. And so, one of the big things that I I'm a big proponent of is absolutely give stuff away for free to people who are qualified.

Yes.

And so, you're like, I don't want a lot of tire kickers. was like for sure neither do I. But if I had a room of 100 of the most qualified people, which if you're like what are a qualified person, it's it's B. So uh IBM made this figured

this out like 70 years ago and it's really never changed. So B is budget authority need timing. Do they have the money to spend the ability to make the decision? They need the thing right now

decision? They need the thing right now and is now is is it now a priority? And

so if we had a room of a hundred people who met all four of those criteria, wouldn't you want to do something and spend five or 10 hours for free? I mean,

my god, like if you had if you could sign like the reason they sell time shares over six hour blocks of time is because it just takes time to build trust for a higher ticket sale. So, if

anything, it's like you're choosing to say that I'm going to give you 5 hours, but they're giving you 5 hours to influence them to ultimately prove that you're good at whatever you do. And so,

I think that is the easiest way to get started. You can make that your

started. You can make that your front-end offer. You can put that in the

front-end offer. You can put that in the video. And I think the the beauty of

video. And I think the the beauty of that specific offer is that you don't need to even figure out what you're going to sell because you'll figure it out during the time you spend with them.

And so you can figure out the offer in real time with them. And also because you're doing it one-on-one, you can basically you can you can permutate it.

You can you can tweak it every single time you you you pitch it to somebody on the fifth or eighth call or whatever.

That ultimately gets you so many faster iterations that are low risk.

Yeah. You know, talking to you today and Alex, I watch your stuff all the time.

The thing that's standing out to me is you're super tactical. There's all these methods, there's all these systems, but then when you were talking about your life, you were like, it's all about who

I want to become.

Is there a number that you stop at or is it actually who you want to become that's your northstar? I see

entrepreneurship as the single greatest path for personal development because if if we define you know learning as fast feedback loops, there are very few other you know professions that give you that

much feedback that brutally honest brutally honest feedback as the market will do. And so at every point where I

will do. And so at every point where I get stuck in a business, I think to myself like what skill do I lack? And I

define everything by skills. So even

traits which is just you know a colloquial term which is really just a bucket of many skills. Um, I just think, okay, well, in order for me to appear confident or be confident, it's really like 38 things that I have to learn. And

all of these things, if I break them down easier, I can do them. So, it's

like, okay, when I shake hands, I make sure that I web the the middle of my hand and I squeeze firmly and I look at the person in the eye. It's like, that's thing one. Thing two is that when we're

thing one. Thing two is that when we're talking, like, you nod because you've been doing this for so long. But some

people who don't know how to have conversations just stand like this. But

somebody who's an active listener will nod. They'll say, "Oh, that's a great

nod. They'll say, "Oh, that's a great point, whatever." And so it's like

point, whatever." And so it's like that's a second thing. When I walk into a room, I'm going to call people by name. It's a third thing. And so when I

name. It's a third thing. And so when I when I try and think about these traits of who I want to become, it's like can I break these down into actions that I can actually do. And so I think that is that

actually do. And so I think that is that has been a large part of the the growth that I've I've hopefully, you know, been able to uh achieve. But in terms of the ultimate goal for me, it's always just been to be useful. Mhm.

And if I think I just do that, then I like that it's such a simplified goal because being useful has uh it actually includes multiple parties because you cannot be useful unless there's someone else you're being useful to. And so it

gives you something controllable which is that I have to learn skills so that I can serve someone else and that is how I can ultimately be useful. And so even when we're, you know, we're making content or whatever it is that we're putting out, I I always try to think like is this useful? Like can someone

actually will this change someone's behavior? Like I want to educate. It's

behavior? Like I want to educate. It's

like what is education? It just means same condition, new behavior. So if

someone has had their same day over and over again, then they're not learning.

So if your day looks the same every single day, you have learned nothing.

And so that means that if you listen to this podcast and then nothing changes my behavior as a result, this was just entertainment, not education. And so

that has been just it's a very sobering point because you realize, oh, I have to change my behavior in order to demonstrate that I have learned. Now the

second component of this is like, okay, well, what's intelligence then? So

intelligence as I define it is rate of learning. So, how quickly do I change my

learning. So, how quickly do I change my behavior in the same condition based on some stimulus?

Mhm.

And so, if you you in a very real way, you can influence your intelligence by being willing to change faster. And so,

if you've heard 10 podcasts and then you eventually change versus somebody who listens to one and then changes, that person is more intelligent than you are.

And so, I see that is actually really encouraging because it means like, oh my god, I have an active control on how quickly I can learn simply by changing my behavior. And so, that has been kind

my behavior. And so, that has been kind of my my motus operandum for how I how I how I live life. Yeah, I want to dive into that. But as an aside, my No, no,

into that. But as an aside, my No, no, no. The reason why you you'll get it in

no. The reason why you you'll get it in a second. As an aside, I've been really

a second. As an aside, I've been really embarrassed of my handshake lately. It's

because I've got a really bad case of tennis elbow. I've been playing a lot of

tennis elbow. I've been playing a lot of pickle ball and so my elbow is destroyed. And so every time I've been I

destroyed. And so every time I've been I was on tour for the last month and every time I've shook someone's hand in a meet and greet, my hand was just like just like literally and I felt so embarrassed, but every time every time I

did a proper handshake, my elbow would hurt. Anyway, um but so you just you

hurt. Anyway, um but so you just you just brought back all that all all that trauma. I really appreciate that mindset

trauma. I really appreciate that mindset because it's what you said earlier that it actually sets you up for long-term success even when things are not going your way, when the results may not go

your way, when you're having to do the things you hate. Like it's only when that's your north star that you can do all of that. Whereas if your northstar is just a number

or just an exit or whatever it may be, it's really really hard when you feel like that exit is just further and further away and that numbers further and further away.

And I'm sure that you've met I mean so many entrepreneurs that they have their exit and everyone almost has invariably the same story. I went to a beach, I drank my ties for a month and then realized that this wasn't for me. And

so, so one of the refrains that I have in my head all the time is uh you are the problem like me talking to me, but like we are the problem. And so we have this issue where we fundamentally just always want what we what we can't have.

Single people want to get married, married people want to be single. And so

it's more that we just want something different almost all the time. And so

it's that that desire and you're you're the monk here, so you know more about this than I do. That's the issue. Like

that's the core problem. Um and so even everyone right now who who doesn't have a business is like, "Man, I would like to start a business someday." And then all the people who started businesses are like, "My god, I can't wait to get out of this thing." Right? And so it's just there are pros and cons on both

sides. There are trade-offs. And I would

sides. There are trade-offs. And I would say that if there was a fourth myth that we were we we would tackle. It's that

people want the benefits of multiple paths without the trade-offs of each.

And so I think one of the reason so there's lots of, you know, content of like, you know, talk to 80-year-olds and they'll tell you, you know, their biggest life regrets. But what I find really interesting is that typically what they will do is they will assume all the benefits of their current life

and say I also wish I had the benefits of this other path.

Yes, without the costs of that other path that are unknown. And also they don't they forget to subtract all the benefits of their existing path. And so I like to

play it out. It's like okay well if I were to do this other path and make that trade um would I be would I be better off? And most times it ends up just

off? And most times it ends up just being like I'd probably be about as happy as I am now.

like it's like, "Oh man, that the one that got away, it's like you'd probably be about just as happy as you are now.

As soon as you play it out a couple years, it's like you probably be about the same." And so that's actually

the same." And so that's actually dramatically reduced my kind of regret uh analysis from from a living perspective. But I think the trade-off

perspective. But I think the trade-off part is so important because especially when you're starting out or even when you're more advanced in business, there's a what I call the fallacy of the perfect pick, which is that we overanalyze things because we think that

we have to get it just right. Because we

think that if we pick just perfectly, we'll find a way to get only benefits and no costs. and it doesn't exist. And

so instead, people just stay stuck thinking that there is some pick that they're not seeing, but it's just not true. And so I think the faster you're

true. And so I think the faster you're willing to make the trade-offs and actually spell them out like these are the things I'm willing to trade because I think a lot of people when they want to like pursue any endeavor, they they immediately think, and I think this is a

little bit more western, is that they think about addition. They think about how can how many more things can I do?

How many more things can I add to my calendar? But most like right now, you

calendar? But most like right now, you currently have a quote full calendar.

You live 24 hours a day and you do stuff. And so I think it's more valuable

stuff. And so I think it's more valuable to think what am I willing to give up?

What am I willing to sacrifice? And

because we have to create space, we have to create this vacuum so that we can put this other thing in. And so those are the trades. And I think in the beginning

the trades. And I think in the beginning the trades are sometimes uh you know, more emotional. Uh because in the

more emotional. Uh because in the beginning it's more, you know, my friends will think this is weird. Uh

they don't want to get this text. What

if someone says, "Oh yeah, you're starting your business. I forgot." Or,

"Oh, you're not not coming out with us.

Are you really doing that thing again?"

Dude, it's not going to I mean, hey, man, I love you, man. Like I I'm supporting you, right? or your your mom's like are you really going to pursue podcasting as a thing?

Right.

I think like the the you know the first rule of entrepreneurship is use what you got.

Right. It's not waiting for some perfect condition because um starting is the perfect condition.

Yeah. That's where the profession part comes in. Going back to where you are

comes in. Going back to where you are like going back to passion, profession pain with profession that's use what you got like you actually understand this industry. Maybe you even worked really

industry. Maybe you even worked really hard to get a degree in it if you went to college or you've had work experience since you were 16. But you kind of want to

were 16. But you kind of want to disregard that because you think there's the perfect pick over here and potentially the passionate pick over here. How do you turn that profession

here. How do you turn that profession into a service, a side hustle, a real business? What does what does that look

business? What does what does that look like?

So what's what's really nice from the prof the profession of the three is by far the fastest angle for sure because you already have the thing that's valuable because you already do exchange it for money. And so the only thing you actually have to add at that point is

promotion and conversion. So you have to say, how do I let people know about this thing that I'm doing? And secondarily,

how do I get these people once they find out to give me money? Right? And so from a letting people know about it, I gave one of eight ways of letting people know. So there's warm outreach, so

know. So there's warm outreach, so that's letting people know one-on-one about your stuff. There's cold outreach, which is oneonone to strangers. You've

got uh paid ads, right, which you can run um on any platform. Um or you've got posting content. Those are the only four

posting content. Those are the only four things that one person can do. Now,

that's a great breakdown. There's only

four things cuz you start thinking there's a million things I have to do.

You've got strangers and people you know and you've got oneonone and one to many.

That's the four box. Now from those core four you then unlock four others which is that I can do oneonone uh outbound or I can do or I can post constant or I can

run ads to get customers who then get me more customers to get affiliates or partners who get me more customers to get employees who will then do these things on my behalf to get me more customers or to get agencies who will

then do it as v you know as a vendor on my behalf. And so the first is the

my behalf. And so the first is the everyone must start with the core four.

Even if you get, you know, a bunch of, you know, partners who then promote on your behalf, you still started with a message that you sent to somebody, right? And so the core four is the first

right? And so the core four is the first activity that you must do in order to promote. These other things are higher

promote. These other things are higher leverage. That makes sense. But this is

leverage. That makes sense. But this is the core four that you start with. Once

you have someone who's responding to you and say, "Hey, I'm interested in your stuff." Uh, which takes someone from a

stuff." Uh, which takes someone from a contact to an engaged lead, right?

They've shown interest. Then we

basically have to take them from engaged to ideally somebody who's going to buy, right? And so that process um at the

right? And so that process um at the most basic level is going to be a conversation that leads to a conversion, right? And so I have um a very simple

right? And so I have um a very simple framework that I that I encourage people who are starting out to follow which I call closer. Um and so it's an acronym

call closer. Um and so it's an acronym so it's easy. So C stands for clarify which you begin the conversation like hey why' you respond to my thing right?

And the nice thing is that whenever you promote you only are really going to have a conversation with someone who engages back right so you always have the reason why right at the front. So

what made you what made you comment on my post? What made you DM me after that?

my post? What made you DM me after that?

What made you uh respond to my ad? What

made you u even respond to my my original message or call? Right? So that

you have that reason. So what made you do that? Clarify. Then you have L, which

do that? Clarify. Then you have L, which is you label them with a problem. So

okay, so what I'm hearing is uh this is problem. This is what you're trying to

problem. This is what you're trying to solve. Does that sound about right?

solve. Does that sound about right?

Okay, cool. Then we go to O, which is overview their past experiences. And so

here we're simply asking them more or less the same four questions, which is okay, what have you done so far? How did

that work for you? Uh what was good?

What was bad? And then we try and tie that to our solution, the pieces that we can solve. It's like, oh, I think you

can solve. It's like, oh, I think you might like this because we have this other element. I'll get to that later,

other element. I'll get to that later, but okay, this is great. What else have you done? What else have you done? And

you done? What else have you done? And

so that's kind of the pain cycle. And

the reason the pain cycle is important is because in order to increase motivation in the short term, we have to basically expand the deprivation around the thing that they want. And so we have

to we have to increase its priority in the short term to get them to take action. And that's why that that cycle

action. And that's why that that cycle is so important. The fourth is S, which is we sell the vacation. And so we want to talk about the outcomes of what the experience is going to be like once the problem's solved. Uh rather than uh just

problem's solved. Uh rather than uh just having some long-winded pitch. And

what's very interesting about the cell portion is that most people talk way too much. We try and get it to under 320

much. We try and get it to under 320 words. So it doesn't like people if you

words. So it doesn't like people if you can if you can very accurately describe someone's existing condition to them and say, "So it sounds like you're struggling with this and it sounds like you're struggling with this and it sounds like you're struggling with this and if we solve this one, this is what

unlocks. We solve this one, this is what

unlocks. We solve this one, this is what locks and we solve this, this one locks.

Is that about right?" They're like, "Yeah." It's like we can totally help

"Yeah." It's like we can totally help you. A lot of times you actually don't

you. A lot of times you actually don't need to sit if you nail the the pain part. The pitch is very easy. And so I

part. The pitch is very easy. And so I am a big believer in having three points in whatever pitch you have. So you can always chunk it up, you know, like I have our attract, convert, deliver. You

have okay, how do we get people to find out? How do we convert them and how do

out? How do we convert them and how do we give them the stuff? Right? Having

three elements of whatever it is. I

mean, I used to do sales scripts for, you know, different companies back in the day. So it's like I had a mortgage

the day. So it's like I had a mortgage lead company and they're like, "Okay, well the the leads are, you know, timely. You want them to be qualified

timely. You want them to be qualified and you want them to be exclusive."

Okay, great. If you're in fitness, it's like you need you need a you need a workout, you need to eat right, and you need to have accountability. If you have all three, then you can't fail, right?

And so there's always three. And then

with each of those three, I have kind of in the back pocket a little anecdote that to give an example of that. So that

way it makes it more real for the person rather than explaining all the sets and reps and all that stuff. No one cares.

That's why it's selling the vacation, not the plane flight. Uh we're not going to sell how we're going to get there.

We're going to sell where we're going to go.

And so once we do S, then we go to E. So

at that point, we ask for the sale. If

they say no, then E and R come into come into uh come into play. E is explaining away their concerns. There's only five, right? They're going to have a timing

right? They're going to have a timing issue. I've got a lot going on right

issue. I've got a lot going on right now. They have a money issue. I don't

now. They have a money issue. I don't

think it's worth it. Uh they have a decision maker problem, which is I don't have the authority to make the decision.

I need someone else's permission. Uh

they're going to have a uh a stall issue, which is let me think about it.

And then there's fifth is preferences.

So I don't like this particular thing about your product or solution.

Um which is just saying that they want your results a different way. And so

basically once you understand how to overcome each of those five issues which they are all actually just uh fallacies in decision-m. So if it's timing issue

in decision-m. So if it's timing issue it's not really a time thing. It's a

priorities thing. If it's a money thing it's not really a money thing. It's a

value thing. If it's a decisionmaker thing it's really that they need support not permission. And then we rely on past

not permission. And then we rely on past agreements in order to say hey well your husband knows that you're overweight right? Do you think he wants you to stay

right? Do you think he wants you to stay overweight? No. Then why would it be

overweight? No. Then why would it be against you doing something to change that? Right? So, just walking through

that? Right? So, just walking through those and I go through all of them, but that's okay.

No, I love it. Yeah, this is a master class man.

Um, and then and then from a stalling perspective, it's actually helping someone make a decision because a lot of people don't know how to decide because you will have this conversation far more than every person you talk to. People

maybe only have five 10 sales conversations a year. If you are selling in for a business, you'll have four or five a day. And so, you should absolutely always be more equipped than they are to solve the problem. Um, the

one that I skipped was preferences, which is, you know, I like uh, hey, I I really want, you know, my my my friend Charlotte, she lost 30 lbs doing your thing, but can I just keep eating the food that I'm currently eating? And so,

they want their results your way. And

so, the easiest way to explain around that is if you change the variables, change the outcome. Do you like the outcome? Yeah. Well, then don't change

outcome? Yeah. Well, then don't change the variables.

And this is the only thing that I can give you confidence in. And the question is is you eating the food you want more important than you looking the way you want to look? And that's a real question. And if the person says yes, it

question. And if the person says yes, it is, then it's like, okay, well, then nothing's going to change. if you don't change.

Yeah.

And so then you get to have a real conversation. But each of those those

conversation. But each of those those are the fundamental kind of ways of getting over them. And so once you explain away the concerns you after each explanation, you always ask again. So

does like does that does that help that?

Does that does that um does that solve that for you? Great. So ready to move forward, you ready to do whatever the next thing is? And then finally is R.

And the R actually happens after the sale and is something that I added years later in my career. It used to just be close. Um but the R um is reinforce the

close. Um but the R um is reinforce the decision. So in the 24 hours post

decision. So in the 24 hours post purchase is when the vast majority of people either either have you know cold feet or they regret or you can reinforce it and becomes a a super positive right and so people believe it or not there's tons of research that supports this is

that they will make a decision about your business based on the first 24 hours post purchase. So it's this huge moment where you can make a first impression that preframes the remainder

of the of the relationship that you have with them. And so being incredibly

with them. And so being incredibly dialed of like hey so you bought let me tell you what the next steps are going to be. We're going to take these steps

to be. We're going to take these steps and we're going to tie that to goal.

Right? So, you said you wanted these three things. The way that we're going

three things. The way that we're going to solve these three things is these three steps. These are the actions you

three steps. These are the actions you take. We're going to meet tomorrow at

take. We're going to meet tomorrow at this time. I'll see you there. Or if you

this time. I'll see you there. Or if you have a, you know, onboarding rep, then you'd go from there. But that

fundamentally is how you'd have the conversion conversation. And so, to loop

conversion conversation. And so, to loop back to if I'm a professional, how do I do this? It's like, well, you're going

do this? It's like, well, you're going to use the core four. You're going to reach out to people. Once they respond, you'll initiate the conversation where you go through the closer framework and then you make them an offer to do your stuff, which will be either moonlighting or, you know, in the morning. And what's

really interesting is that people think that their 9 to5 is getting in the way of their dreams when it's really they're 5 to 9. And so 5:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m.

it's like you're it's four prime hours and then 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. it's

another four prime hours. So it's like you've got eight you've got a full workday that you can work which I strongly recommend. I think a lot of

strongly recommend. I think a lot of people are big on the burn the boats thing and I think there's a time and a place for that. But if you have a family and you've got a mortgage, I would recommend you keep your job.

I agree. and then supplement your income. And then at the point where your

income. And then at the point where your supplemental income in your off time surpasses your your full-time income, that is when I say make the jump. And

for me, cuz I actually, believe it or not, tend to be relatively riskaverse person. I would say if you do that for 6

person. I would say if you do that for 6 months because there's going to be volatility um in the business. And I'll also just play out the next problem they're going to have if that's all right.

Go for it.

So, so much value, man. So much value.

So volatility is a symptom of insufficient volume. And so if you feel

insufficient volume. And so if you feel like you're like, man, how, you know, I got a couple customers and then, you know, the the leads stop coming in. It's

like, well, you're doing insufficient volume. You're not doing enough of the

volume. You're not doing enough of the core four. We have to post more content.

core four. We have to post more content.

We have to post more ads. We have to do more reachouts, right? That's what we have to do. And so, if you think, okay, well, I've been doing these reachouts and, you know, no one's responding or things like that. One, we need to make sure that the offer that we have is good, which I think we started with the

5 hour thing. I think it's a great first offer. But, you know, under that

offer. But, you know, under that assumption, if we do this, I have a rule of 100, which is that you do 100 uh per day. So, that means you're doing either

day. So, that means you're doing either a h 100red minutes that you're putting into posting content and you post and you post to be very clear and you post uh you you spend $100 a day on ads uh or

you do 100 reachouts. And if you want to be crazy, you can do all three. And so,

in those in those in those scenarios, uh the key is that you have to keep going.

And so if you get, let's say you do the rule of 100 and you get one sale a week, okay, then if you want to, that would give you four sales a month roughly. If

you're like, man, I want to go from four sales a month to to 16 sales a month.

The nice thing is that you actually have a clear input output equation, which is that, okay, it costs me 700 primary, you know, efforts to get one sale. And so

that volatility feels like it's only one, but it's because you're not doing enough. If I take that 700 and do 700

enough. If I take that 700 and do 700 per day, then all of a sudden I'll be making one sale a day. And

fundamentally, that little compression process is the only thing that separates very small businesses from very large businesses. Most small business owners

businesses. Most small business owners have no idea how much more volume the guys who are ahead of them put out. I

remember a conversation at the very beginning of me deciding to make content after I sold the company where I said, "Hey, you know, I I really want to learn this Instagram game um and content game." And so I talked to somebody who's

game." And so I talked to somebody who's big big influencer and I said, you know, can you can you analyze my stuff and tell me what I'm doing wrong? And he

said, "Dude, you're not doing anything wrong. You're just doing too little."

wrong. You're just doing too little."

And so he said he said, "Pull up your Instagram." And I pulled it up. Uh and I

Instagram." And I pulled it up. Uh and I think I was doing like a post every other day or something like that. And

he's like, "Dude, I got four posts a day." And I was like, "Whoa." And then

day." And I was like, "Whoa." And then he said, "Pull up your LinkedIn." And I I don't think I posted on LinkedIn. He's

like, "I got 10 posts a day." And he's like, "Pull up your pull up your Twitter." At the time, now X is like I

Twitter." At the time, now X is like I had nothing. Right. And so he he went

had nothing. Right. And so he he went side by side. He's like, I'm putting out 70 80 a day and you're putting out one every other and you're complaining. And

I was like, got it.

And so the most people dramatically underestimate the amount of volume that is required. And that volume has a great

is required. And that volume has a great feedback loop for skill because you do these iterations and you will suck and that is okay. And as long as you like the process that I have for

improving any part of any system is just do a tremendous amount of volume. Let's

say we do a 100 whatevers. We look at the top 10 percent of of the ones that got the highest response rate or the ones that got the most views or the ads that got the most clicks. We say, "Okay, what was different about these top 10 percent compared to the other 90?" And

so the next hundred we do, we say, "Let's just try and just do the thing we did in the top 10%. We do it again." And

that continual refinement process has been the key to all the stuff that we've done. It's just look at what worked, do

done. It's just look at what worked, do more of that. And so if you were in the professional bucket, that is more or less kind of the approach that I would take to get that first dollar.

Everyone needs to listen to that 15 minutes every day. I'm not kidding. That

was the most amount of value I think has ever been packed in a 15 minutes that I've ever heard in my entire life. And

I'm not kidding. That is such brilliant, brilliant advice. Totally broken down

brilliant advice. Totally broken down step by step. I mean, you could I mean, you can make like 70 posts off of just the last 15 minutes. It was so No. And

and I mean that. I'm not just saying that because right now as you're speaking, I've got so many friends that I've got in my head that are exactly at that point. And it's either the volume

that point. And it's either the volume that's messing them up. It's either not having the plan to how do you pitch and convert? Two questions. The first is how

convert? Two questions. The first is how do you stop being scared of sucking?

Because a lot of my friends are scared of sucking.

Mhm.

And the second one is why are we so uncomfortable selling and promoting and showing our work?

So the first one, what's really interesting about the question is that I think that most people are actually very okay with sucking. I think they're very not okay with being judged for sucking.

And so I think that at the at the onset we have to redefine success as trying and not as succeeding uh or at least getting whatever desired outcome there is because failure and success are are

salt and pepper. They're married.

They're the one one leads to the next.

And so the idea is we want to get as many failures out of the way as fast as possible. And so it's like we want to

possible. And so it's like we want to pay down that failure debt as again as soon as we can. And so the the very tactical thing that I would advise is think about there's we think I don't I

don't want people to think that I'm a failure. It's actually not people.

failure. It's actually not people.

There's like two people that you hear their voice in your head. And so when you actually get really clear on who whose voice is that because I'll tell I'll tell you a real world example. So

for me when I this is sounds ridiculous but just but just to show you hopefully how ridiculous whatever you think sounds I'll share one of mine. So, when I was uh thinking about selling my company,

the the offer was for for 46.2 million.

And I I was afraid that it wasn't enough to impress the people that I wanted to impress. And so, and I had to figure

impress. And so, and I had to figure that out. I was like, I don't know. I

that out. I was like, I don't know. I

mean, is it worth it? Maybe I should hold on to it longer and grow more. And

I want, you know, back and forth. And

when I thought more more about it, I was like, actually, there's only one person whose opinion I'm concerned about. And

then when I named it, when I was like, "Oh, it's Tom. Tom's the per and like I'm not even that close with Tom, but Tom, my envisionment of Tom judging my

my my my exit as not good enough for their approval." I was like, "Wait, I'm

their approval." I was like, "Wait, I'm letting Tom have this much influence over my life. That's absurd." And so, one of the big um reframes that I have in my head is that if you don't know why you believe what you believe, it's not

your belief, it's someone else's. And so

if you can't explain like why am I not doing this? If you can't actually

doing this? If you can't actually explain it, it's because there's someone else's voice that is influencing you that you're not aware of. And so I try and Yeah. Ex the naming is the key part

and Yeah. Ex the naming is the key part because as soon as you see that, you're like Tom. You're like screw Tom. You're

like Tom. You're like screw Tom. You're

like I want to It's like is is Tom's approval worth more than the dream that you want to pursue. And as soon as you get that, you're like, well, hell no.

And then you move forward. And I can tell you just from from the other side of this, and I want to I want to be really clear. I understand how scary it

really clear. I understand how scary it is. It took me 6 months to quit my job.

is. It took me 6 months to quit my job.

And I I talked to my friend every single day saying, "This is the day. This is

the day. This is the day." And when I did finally quit my job, I drove across the country. And I only called people

the country. And I only called people from home when I was already halfway across. I didn't tell anyone I was

across. I didn't tell anyone I was leaving because I was so afraid of what they would say. So I say this as somebody who absolutely gets it. But I

just want to tell you from the other side of it, it's, you know, this is a Leila quote, not me, but you know, fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. And so

it looks like this vast ocean of of like I'm going to drown. But as soon as you take the first step, you're like, "Oh, this is a puddle."

And there's a quote from Jo Willick that I love that's recent. It's been top of mind for me, which is besides death, all failure is psychological.

It's just when you the longer you think about it, the more you're like, wait, all failure is just me drawing an arbitrary line in the sand that I say anything that does not meet the standard will force me to be upset. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it's like, okay, well, if I don't die, then I can keep going. And if I don't die, then it means I can stand it.

Yeah. And and I think a big part of it when I'm listening to you is because it's psychological.

Let me know that it will happen. Yeah.

So I remember when I put out my first video, which I didn't tell anyone I was going to do. I spent two years watching videos before I made one and put one out.

And when I put out my first video, I remember my friend saying to me, "You talk too fast. the music is too loud.

It's edited badly. Cool. Like it wasn't received with praise.

Now, I didn't think about that too much.

And now, if I go back to advise someone, I'd say, anticipate that.

Yeah.

Because if you anticipate it, then it's okay. Then it's uh inch deep.

okay. Then it's uh inch deep.

Yeah.

Right. You're like, "Oh, okay. Well,

yeah, they're probably going to tell me that the editing wasn't great or whatever." Yeah,

whatever." Yeah, but if I have it, you know, not people who actually avoid some of them, but guess what? I

won't avoid all of them. There will

still be someone who criticizes the tone, what I'm wearing, how I look, whatever it is. And as soon as you know that, you go, "Oh, that's all it is."

Someone's going to look at and be like, "Yeah, I'm not sure." And it's like, "Oh, wait. Their reaction doesn't change

"Oh, wait. Their reaction doesn't change my reality." Yeah,

my reality." Yeah, like their reaction will always be there. And I think what we're trying to

there. And I think what we're trying to do, going to your earlier point as well, is we're trying to avoid the reaction.

We want to create something that has no negative reaction.

And there is not a single person on planet earth that has created a song, a movie, uh podcast or whatever it may be that has had no negative reaction. So

I have so so many quick thoughts on this. So number one is that if you do

this. So number one is that if you do nothing, people will criticize you. If

you do something, people will criticize you. So criticism is a fixed cost.

you. So criticism is a fixed cost.

Period. Number two, it takes about 20 hours to become proficient in just about anything. You want to play guitar like

anything. You want to play guitar like proficient in just about anything. It

just takes people 10 years to get the first 20 hours. And that's a huge a huge issue. The third is that when you're

issue. The third is that when you're thinking about feedback is one, not all feedback is created equal. You don't

want to listen to the people who are closest to you. You want to listen to the people who are closest to your goals. M

goals. M and so listen to the people who are already at your goals who already have achieved those goals and listen to their feedback because I'll say for example for me like if I if I I mean I rarely do but if I post anything of me at the gym

the only people who comment are people who are smaller than me. No guy who is bigger than me ever has talked [ __ ] about you know about my you know my fitness stuff. Um and so to the same

fitness stuff. Um and so to the same degree anybody who's an entrep who's a real entrepreneur is going to be like hell yeah man you got out there. Oh of

course you failed. I mean obviously you failed but that's okay right? everyone

falls the first time right from uh from the matrix. And so expect failure and I

the matrix. And so expect failure and I think that if you can play it out the there's a there's a really wonderful framework around this which is the the frame of the veteran which is if you were to imagine whatever bad experience

occurs happening a thousand times more in a row how would you feel on the thousandth time? And if that's how

thousandth time? And if that's how you're going to feel in the thousandth time with the exact same condition, you might as well feel that way today. And

it's just been a really like a like if you're like man I hate traffic. It's a

Google. Let's assume traffic is a constant and it happens for the next thousand days. You'll probably be like,

thousand days. You'll probably be like, "Well, it's just how it is." Totally,

right? And so, this is just how it is.

That's the feedback that you're going to get from the videos and it's going to keep happening and it's okay.

Yeah. Your your point just now of the problem is it takes us 10 years to get the first 20 hours is so true. I know something that I've because people are often like that to me like Jay, how do you solve a problem?

I'm like, if I think something's a big problem to solve or a skill to learn, I will cancel every evening plan this week and I will cancel my entire weekend. And

all I'm doing this weekend is figuring out that skill. I'll get a coach. I'll

commit to the time and I'll be around that community of people. Those are my three practices or things to develop a skill. And then this weekend is

skill. And then this weekend is dedicated to getting good at X. And it's

like if I don't get enough hours in this weekend, the next four weekends are dedicated to that thing. And all of a sudden in a month, I've solved a problem that could have taken me six years. And

so I love that piece of advice because I think it's it's the same advice when you give people like, "Hey, just try three things out." And they're like, "Okay,

things out." And they're like, "Okay, I'll try three things out, one a year."

And and also when you give it 12 months to try one thing out, you actually never know. Whereas if you did something for a

know. Whereas if you did something for a whole day, like I remember when me and my wife were in Hawaii and we both grew up in London.

We never went surfing or skiing and things like this, right? We're in

Hawaii. We try surfing. We do it the whole day. I knew I was never going to

whole day. I knew I was never going to be a surfer and it's the last thing I want to do and I don't care at all about surfing. It It looks good, but it is not

surfing. It It looks good, but it is not fun to do. Like I didn't enjoy the process. And I'm like, but if I went

process. And I'm like, but if I went like for 30 minutes one day, then I'd be like, "Oh, well maybe I just didn't do it right." And then you're like, "Okay,

it right." And then you're like, "Okay, I'll go 30 minutes next year. I'll do an hour next year." And so we just keep elongating the kind of failure rate or knowing how quickly something's important or not.

I think it's getting completely immersed and just soaked in whatever the thing that you're trying to pursue. So I'll

tell you a comparable story. So when I was when I had my first business, I I was I've never been a tech oriented person. Now I try not to speak that over

person. Now I try not to speak that over myself, but like I'm working on it. And

so I was like, I have to learn how to build web pages. I hate relying on these IT guys. They're slow. They don't build

IT guys. They're slow. They don't build it the right way. And so this is right as some of the early kind of softwares come out. And I had put it off. And then

come out. And I had put it off. And then

I finally said, "Both days this weekend, I'm locking the doors. I'm closing the the frames. I'm turning off my phone."

the frames. I'm turning off my phone."

And I just had a simple page. I said,

"I'm just going to copy this page. I

just want to see if I can figure it out." And I set two full days aside and

out." And I set two full days aside and I finished it by noon.

Yeah.

But I had put it off for weeks. And so

most times it's almost like fear is a mile wide and an inch deep. So is

ignorance. It's like it's more than you expect but less than you think. Yeah.

Right. You get in and you're like, "Oh, there's only four parts to this." Okay.

I think okay, now I You want to wrap your arms around it. And I think that's why having these kind of longer intense sessions where you kind of drink all of it up because if you did multiple 30 minute sessions, for example, it's like it'll take you the first 15 minutes to

get back into what did I just learn last time? And then it just it takes very

time? And then it just it takes very it's very hard to get make progress. And

so I'm a I'm a massive advocate of full shutdown days. I mean, drink your

shutdown days. I mean, drink your coffee, get your good night's sleep, and then put your earplugs in and then like lock in.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then

the second question was why are we so uncomfortable with selling, promoting ourselves, putting ourselves out there?

So I would put that as two two separate buckets. So one is the promotion, which

buckets. So one is the promotion, which is kind of public embarrassment, public harass, you know, that kind of Yeah. The

second one is um why am I scared to ask this person for money? Right? And so I think on some level it comes down to some people feel like imposters. They're

like I you know I don't deserve this and things like that. But I think that there's a there's a very tactical way to overcome that which is you outwork your self-doubt. And so if you um if you've

self-doubt. And so if you um if you've done those 20 and I think it's the people who haven't done the 20 who feel like imposters, but if you've done it 20 times and you're like, I know what's going to happen next and I know what

your problem is and I also know I can solve it. And so your conviction goes up

solve it. And so your conviction goes up because you're not you're not exaggerating anything. You're not

exaggerating anything. You're not puffing your chest. You're just one of my big rules in persuasion is state the facts and tell the truth. And so you're like, listen, I've done 20 of these. You

have the same issues as these people.

This is what I did for them. I think I can do the same thing for you. We're not

exaggerating. We're not claiming anything. We're just saying like this is

anything. We're just saying like this is this is what's happened. And so I think that that will dramatically decrease the anxiety around the conversation. The

second piece is the fear of like rejection in the micro. And so um it's it's always overstated because the worst thing they can say is no. And then you

say, "Okay, fine. No worries." Like not a big deal. I'll just ask somebody else, right? Like if anything, sales is like

right? Like if anything, sales is like dating. It's a numbers game. Like you

dating. It's a numbers game. Like you

have to be willing to say I would and this is why I like rule of 100 a lot is have a hundred conversations and I promise you your anxiety will go down because you'll just habituate. And so

everyone like and this is the psychological way of actually curing phobias. If you're afraid of spiders,

phobias. If you're afraid of spiders, the fastest way to cure spiders is lock you in a room with spiders. You'll have

a couple panic attacks. You'll you'll

you'll pass out. You'll wake back up.

The spiders are still there. You wait

pass out. Wake back up and eventually you're just like, "All right, I'm used to it." Yeah.

to it." Yeah.

It's because they've done this before.

And so we just have to get you to the we've done this before part as fast as we can.

Yeah. What about people who feel like the approaches are manipulative, okay?

Or these tactics are like you're preying on someone's vulnerabilities and insecurities and of course that person wants to lose weight for their partner and you're playing to that. Like what

about someone who feels that way and that's what gets in their head like oh I know I have a valuable service. I know I want to help people but actually like they should want to do it themselves.

I'm not going to convince them.

So I'm going to I'll define two things.

So one I see the process of selling as arranging the variables to increase the likelihood a sale occurs. That is a selling process. And so we want to use

selling process. And so we want to use all the variables we can because if we can control the variables we control the outcome. And so I see then underneath of

outcome. And so I see then underneath of that the difference between help and manipulation is intention. And so you use the exact same uh variables to influence someone's purchasing decision.

But if your intention is to scam them out of money and not help them, then for sure you should I hope you feel all the feelings that you have right now. But on

the flip side, if you're if you know that you're going to do your absolute best and and you've not misrepresented something. And I think this is the key

something. And I think this is the key part where people feel the imposter syndrome is because they misrepresent.

If you state the facts and tell the truth, most of your anxiety goes away.

And I have this conversation sometimes with entrepreneurs even at a million dollar a year, $5 million a year. And

they're like, I just feel this imposter syndrome with my business and I'll say, "Are you stating anything that's not true?" And then they'll kind of look at

true?" And then they'll kind of look at me and they're like, "Well, you know, I teach agencies how to, you know, grow their customer base." And I'm like, "Okay, and why do you feel like an imposttor?" They're like, "Well, you

imposttor?" They're like, "Well, you know, I had an agency and it just really wasn't that successful." And I'm like, "Okay, are your clients successful?"

They're like, "No, the clients are successful." I'm like, "Okay, so what do

successful." I'm like, "Okay, so what do you teach them that you were not able to do for yourself?" And they're like, "Well, I was actually just really good at the sales side. I was really bad at the delivery side." I said, "If you just say, "Hey, I had an agency. I was really

good at selling customers, really bad at delivering on them, but if you're good at delivering on them and you need a sales process, I can help you." I was like, "Would you feel like you're being an imposttor?" He's like, "No." I was

an imposttor?" He's like, "No." I was like, "And believe it or not, that's actually more compelling because you have a damaging admission, which actually makes you it's one of the components of persuasion, right? Like

you just just tell people all the things that are not good because when you tell them the good things, they'll actually believe them more." And so I would tell, you know, I was in the gym space for a while and so, you know, a gym owner

would have, you know, a bad location and bad parking. And they're like, you know,

bad parking. And they're like, you know, I I don't I don't it's it's embarrassing. And I say, include it in

embarrassing. And I say, include it in the ad. Just say, hey, by the way, we

the ad. Just say, hey, by the way, we have the uh we don't have the newest equipment. Uh our parking is terrible.

equipment. Uh our parking is terrible.

We have a tiny location, but we have the best workouts on this side of the Mississippi. Right? And if you say that,

Mississippi. Right? And if you say that, then it's like people are like, I love that guy, right? Because he told the truth. And so you'll be significantly

truth. And so you'll be significantly more persuasive and have less anxiety by just stating the facts and tell the truth. And if the facts aren't

truth. And if the facts aren't compelling enough, do the free work so the facts are compelling.

Yeah. Oh, I love that so much because I'm thinking of a friend right now who has a service he offers and he's always scared that he's a one-man band and he's scared that companies are going to ask for a service and he's almost embarrassed of saying,

well, I'm just one guy and he wants to present himself as a company.

And I'm always saying to him, well, no, tell them because you're one guy, you can actually be there. You're present.

You're doing all the work yourself.

You're committed. you're not just rolling out something that everyone else is doing.

So, I have I have an awesome frame for this. So, when we had our software

this. So, when we had our software company, Allen, which we sold in 21, uh it was a software that helped uh agencies kind of manage schedules. It

did automated texting stuff back before all the new stuff now, right? And so, um I actually had agencies that sold to gym owners and I obviously also owned Gym Launch at the time, too, which is which is the category, you know, king in that

space, right? It's the biggest company

space, right? It's the biggest company there. And so, they were like, "How do

there. And so, they were like, "How do we how do we compete against you?" And I said, "Every position has an advantage."

And so you are going to say, "Man, Alex, Alex isn't going to be the one take, you know, he's not the one taking your calls. He's just going to you're going

calls. He's just going to you're going to be client number 77. He's not even going to know your name. You're going to be assigned to some account rep that he pays, you know, nothing to." And of course, we paid well, but like I don't know, you know, he just pays way less.

Um that he onboarded in two days. Uh and

like that's the level of service you're going to get. Whereas with me, you get the highest person. and you get the CEO and you call me, I'll respond immediately. I'm the one working your

immediately. I'm the one working your account. So, don't compare Jim the size

account. So, don't compare Jim the size of Gym Launch to the size of my company.

Compare the person you're actually going to work with. And am I going to be better than his rep number seven? Yes.

That's a compelling pitch. Now, if I'm flipping the table, I'm going to say, "Listen, this guy's in his mom's basement. He hasn't proven any track

basement. He hasn't proven any track record. We've been here for 10 years,

record. We've been here for 10 years, and the reason we've been here for 10 years, and we've gotten so big, is because we're actually good at what we do. And if we weren't good at what we

do. And if we weren't good at what we do, we wouldn't be this big, and we wouldn't been doing it for this long.

This guy has no process. He might be gone tomorrow." We both have advantages

gone tomorrow." We both have advantages that we can cater. So there's no position on the board that doesn't have advantage. You just got to play what you

advantage. You just got to play what you got. Again, rule number one, right?

got. Again, rule number one, right?

Yeah. And and and the idea of pointing it out.

Yeah.

Is just so masterful because that's what's blocking us. It takes away we're all trying to be everything to everyone and we want to portray that we've thought about every part of the puzzle and we're the one-stop shop. And I feel

like whenever anyone says they're the one-stop shop, there's nothing there, right? Because

it's like, well, wait a minute. There's

no way you could have figured out this and this and this and this and this with just you.

With just you and you've been in the business for two years, right? Like it's

it's just not possible. And so and that's so freeing. Like I'm hoping people hear that and just feel so much lighter and go tell the truth, state the facts, and and that's it. You know,

if they say no, that's okay. Because

honestly, if they say no, then they weren't going to be a fit.

Yeah. And so I can promise you some of the best deals are the ones you never do because right now any business owner can tell you this like there are customers that you're like I wish we did not ever talk to this person, right? And so like you're just avoiding some of these

things that are going to be calamities later. So you might as well just get it

later. So you might as well just get it up front. And the thing is is that when

up front. And the thing is is that when you set those expectations, it just it creates such a clean relationship from there on. It's like these are the

there on. It's like these are the expectations you can set. This is what I will do. Anything outside of that, I'm

will do. Anything outside of that, I'm not going to pretend like I have done it. Now if we want to figure this out,

it. Now if we want to figure this out, I'll be figuring it out with you. and if

you if you like the stuff I have here, I can apply some of those principles, but I haven't done it. I want to be upfront about that. And so, where's the imposter

about that. And so, where's the imposter syndrome? Where's the fear? It's like

syndrome? Where's the fear? It's like

there shouldn't be any. And it's all about the deception piece. And I think that's where that's where people get in trouble.

Yeah. The other thing I've learned about that is that I feel like people who win watch winners. Yeah.

watch winners. Yeah.

And people who fail watch losers.

And so when I look online or even if I talk to people that I get a lot of this where people be like, I can't believe this guy has like 100,000 followers.

Like, have you seen his stuff? it just

sucks. Like, oh, I can't believe that this guy like has a business making a million dollars. Like, I mean, he hasn't

million dollars. Like, I mean, he hasn't even got, you know, and so there's a lot of this where you find people who are not winning are constantly whereas like I'm sure if me and you were talking about something like dude, did you see

what this guy did? That's amazing. Like,

do you see what you know, whatever? And

and so I feel like there's that ideology that we get stuck in where we're like, I know I'm better than that guy or whoever, that girl, whatever it is. I

know I'm better, but I'm not doing anything about it. And that hurts me even more.

Can I tell you a story about this?

Yeah.

So, I know I think you've had um Kylie Jenner on this.

Not Kylie. I've had

You have a Kendall. You've had Kendall.

Kendra.

Well, I'll then I'll tell you the story.

So, Oh, I know the Kylie story from you.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. When she

became a billionaire. Yeah. Yeah. I've

watched the video, man. I'm in, man. I'm

in your content. I'm there. I'm there.

So, Kylie became a billionaire. I'm

27ish at the time and I'm making I'd say very good money and I thought I was I was, you know, the the man, right? And

then here comes this girl who's seven, eight years younger than me and she's crushing, you know, she crushed it and she was better she was better than I was. And I and I, you know, my first

was. And I and I, you know, my first response was ego being like, "Hey, Chris Jenner is her mom. She's had her life set up since day one. She's been on reality TV for, you know, I had all that all that narrative." And then underneath

of that, I was like, chill. What can I learn from her? Right? And so I have the fundamental belief that if someone makes more money than you, they know something that you don't know. And in that, you can learn of them. And I think that that

allows every single person in the world success to serve you.

Yeah.

Literally, you just flip the world into like these are all the different lessons I can learn from all these people. And I

think um one of my it's the sword of Gryffindor, but I love this quote that was on it.

I love Harry Potter. Yeah.

Um, but it was made of, you know, goblin steel or dwarf steel and it was it only took that which made it stronger.

And so you know in no way makes you stronger and you trying to point out all the deficiencies. It's like you're you

the deficiencies. It's like you're you are the thing that you are afraid of for yourself. Like you're you're going to

yourself. Like you're you're going to point out all this person's deficiencies and your big fear is about the fact that other people want to do that to you. So

first start by stop doing it to other people and start trying to find what are the things that they are because the thing is is it is a fact. They are

better than you at something. And I

think like you have to accept that as much as you're like that guy's got 100,000 followers. Well, and he only had

100,000 followers. Well, and he only had one viral video. It's like, well, he's got one more than you do.

Yeah.

What was it about that video now? Let's

start tackling that. Um, and so like from Kylie, the thing that I learned was brand. I was like, she's got a big

brand. I was like, she's got a big brand. And then I was like, okay, I need

brand. And then I was like, okay, I need to start looking at that. And that's

what that's what kicked off this entire journey for me even making all this content stuff was that Forbes cover.

Yeah.

That was like that was the thing for me.

And so, you know, Kylie, if you ever watch this, like you're a huge influence in my life.

I love that. We'll get it. We'll get it.

I love that. And and what I like about that is that criticism doesn't cure envy.

Yeah.

And also success doesn't cure envy. It's

only study that kills envy. Like that

appreciation, that admiration, that's the only thing. And envy is that thing that when when I coach people and I've been fortunate enough to coach musicians and actors and whatever.

And there's two questions I always ask people is the first thing is who do you envy?

And there is no person on the planet even in the 0.001% 001% who doesn't envy someone that I've that I've met at least and then the second one is who's your god or what is your god whether it's

money time energy whatever it is and and those two questions sum it up for people and what I found is that success just doesn't take away envy so even if you had become a billionaire in

the next 12 months that still wouldn't have taken it away because she did it at 21 and you did it younger I can tell you yeah exactly and so it's like that that's what's so fascinating about it is

that we You become successful by what you get, but you become fulfilled by what you lose. And losing envy and losing comparison and losing criticism leads to happiness. So when people say

money doesn't buy happiness, it's not that money is not important. Money makes

you successful and it's great. You

should get it.

Happiness was never in the equation with money. That wasn't the point of it. Like

money. That wasn't the point of it. Like

I love having awards and accolades, but they were never in the equation of happiness. They were in the equation of

happiness. They were in the equation of success. And the equation of happiness

success. And the equation of happiness was envy, ego, illusion, lust, anger, all of this stuff. And so it's funny how the equations get like, you know, crossed over.

Yeah. Oh, I I just I loved everything that you No, I just it really resonates hearing about it from your story and also just like breaking it down for people and making it really simple and going like, let's stop demonizing people who are

selling well or making money and doing this thing because it it leads to a certain part of the puzzle. But then

let's also remember that you wouldn't be who you are today if you hadn't got over that envy right at the beginning.

So let me toss this in that I think might be helpful.

So one of the quotes that I don't like is comparison is the thief of joy. And

I'll explain why because I so I think comparison is incredibly valuable feedback tool. Now

what we want to be clear is the differentiation between criticism and insults. And so insults are attack on

insults. And so insults are attack on someone's character saying and I'll give you an example. And a criticism is the difference between uh expected and reality, right? Or desired and actual.

reality, right? Or desired and actual.

So uh I expect you to be on time and you are 5 minutes late. Okay, cool. So I

say, "Hey, you were 5 minutes late. This

was the expectation. This is what happened." That is criticism, right?

happened." That is criticism, right?

Insult. And you're lazy. And so um if we can pull those things apart, we can take the good of because I I think our brains are comparison brains. Like it's how we how we orient ourselves in the world.

Where am I? and very tough. Maybe years

and years of of of monk study can maybe get you out of it, but I think for the vast majority of people, comparison is is going to be fixed in their brain. And

so it's like we want to use that. We

want to use that skill of learning to to point out the discrepancy between where they are and where I am so that I can create steps so that I can get better. I

want to completely eliminate and erase insults. And also on the flip side, if

insults. And also on the flip side, if someone insults me, um this is a a side note, but like if the big fear that many people have on promoting or selling is that someone's gonna say something bad about them

and so that they're going to get insulted. And the biggest reframe that's

insulted. And the biggest reframe that's been helpful for me is simply translating all hate or insults into he lives his life in a way that I would not prefer.

And it just comes down to that. I can't

believe he's he's married to this person. He makes this kind of why does

person. He makes this kind of why does he think he like he lives his life in a way that I would not prefer? And that is just it has really boiled a lot of the the hatred down to like oh well I mean you live your life in a way that I would not prefer and that's fine. That's why

you life my life and hey more power to you man. Uh and that has just like really quelled a lot of the concern because I'm sure uh like you I get an unending you know deluge of of

hate comments just because if you put yourself out there like if again if you do nothing you will get criticized for doing nothing and if you do something you'll get criticized. So criticism is a fact. It is a fixed cost.

fact. It is a fixed cost.

Yeah. And and yeah and that's why like I I agree with you on the comparison point and that's why I look at comparison as two kind of brothers study and envy and so that's that's the choice you have

like we have to compare comparison is a fixed like you're going to compare because the brain is wired that way and it's either I compare myself with envy or study and those are my two choices I'm going to compare and so this idea of

never comparing yourself to anyone is actually a lie and a myth in and of itself because if you never compared yourself to anyone you wouldn't have goals you wouldn't aspire for anything.

You wouldn't become better.

There's no feedback because you can't say, well, this is where I was and this is what hap like that is a comparison.

And so I would I say that because one of the things we have is feedback is fuel, right? And so it's like I want as much

right? And so it's like I want as much fuel as I can.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's that's such a you know, you've said the word feedback's come up so many times today where you mentioned it so many times and to to see feedback as fuel is the only

way to have an iterative constantly evolving process. And I find that, you

evolving process. And I find that, you know, there's the famous quote from Albert Einstein where he said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result."

And feedback is the way you don't do the same thing over and over again. You can

change it every time.

But so many of us keep doing something even when it doesn't work, hoping for that different outcome.

Why?

We don't change the email copy. We don't

post at a different cadence. We don't up the volume. We It's just like we're

the volume. We It's just like we're just, you know, I've got so many friends. We'll upload a video, delete a

friends. We'll upload a video, delete a video, upload, you know, it's like we don't change that and then we're still going, wait a minute, what's going on here?

So my worldview on why anyone does anything is that they've been rewarded for doing that in the past.

And so, you know, one of the one of the really difficult things with language in general is that there's descriptive and explanatory language. And so, for

explanatory language. And so, for example, I'll give the simplest example.

you know, Timmy stole a bike uh because he is dishonest. Okay. Well, if we define dishonest, we would say, well, dishonest people steal things. But

that's a circular definition. It doesn't

actually help. The explanation of why did he actually steal it is because he's been rewarded for stealing in the past and so he repeated that that action because it got him something good. And

same thing goes for lying. Same thing

goes for cheating. All of these things like why does someone do it? It's like

because they've been rewarded for doing so in the past. They've been reinforced.

And so why do people Yeah. Why do people uh do anything that is and and you know my worldview is somewhat different than I think many people's because I come from everything from a behaviorist perspective but it has made me

significantly better at business because I get better at predicting behavior. And

so um I'll give you a simple example. So

um you know there was an exec at you know one of the companies uh and I was talking to one of the other owners and they were like hey you know I I this guy said that he would leave if we changed the his title or whatever. And I said,

'Okay, well, how many times have you changed his title uh historically? And

he said, 'Ly of times. And I said, 'Okay, has he ever left?' And the answer was no. I said, 'So based on his history

was no. I said, 'So based on his history of behavior, I would say that he says these things to decrease the likely that you do it because that's his preference, but the likelihood that he quits as a result is low. And so it's like those kind of deconstructions, some people just take things at face value. It's

like, well, if we look, if we actually try and find the explanation rather than the description of the event, we can get way better predicting behavior, including our own. And I think that's where like people like I want to get back to the the the trauma of whatever

it's like maybe like can I go to this because I think this this might be helpful.

So um I love the direction you go.

Okay. So many people will will use trauma or some event and they will create a narrative around why why haven't I started? It's because my dad didn't hug me enough as a kid and I don't have this confidence. And so they

just create this big story and then they're like, I need to go see a therapist so that I can, you know, untangle all of this. But if I were to say, hey, I'm going to teach you how to how to serve in pickle ball, right? We

wouldn't have the first session be, hey, go do a serve. And then you would serve, not ideally if I'm a pickle ball coach, right? And then I'd say, okay, so for

right? And then I'd say, okay, so for the next, you know, few weeks, what we're going to do is we're going to try and go back in the past and we're going to try and figure out why your serve is so bad. And no, we're just going to say,

so bad. And no, we're just going to say, change your wrist like this. this is how you do it. And so it's so much more productive to just focus on what do we need to do instead rather than trying to figure out uh why you did it because the

reality is you're never going to know.

It's a convenient narrative and it might make sense but at the same time it could just be that you rewarded for doing something like this in the past period.

Now there might have been conditions that created that reward and you can lament the person but at the end of the day the only thing you can do about it is change behavior. And so um trauma which is tossed around a lot um I define

as uh a permanent change in behavior from an aversive stimulus from a bad thing. So you permanently change how you

thing. So you permanently change how you act because of something bad that happened. Now the question is is trauma

happened. Now the question is is trauma bad? Well did the change in behavior

bad? Well did the change in behavior result in increase or decrease in likelihood of achieving whatever goal we have. And so if a kid touches a hot

have. And so if a kid touches a hot stove and they say ouch and then they never touch hot stoves again then that was a traumatic event by that definition and it's probably good trauma because they never touch hot stoves again. So

decrease the likeli they die in a fire.

Great. And so sometimes it's like well then maybe we can be grateful for some of the quote traumas that we've had because it permanently changed my behavior in a good way. Now if we have quote trauma that that uh permanently changed my behavior in a negative way.

So I had you know bombs and saw someone die in front of me and the next time I hear a loud noise I you know I freak out and I can't you know perform my job.

Then that would be something that decreases the likelihood. But then at that point rather than trying to figure out the triggering event in the past we just think okay how can we recondition this person under similar conditions so

that they can act this way instead. And

so trauma what it ends up happening is it becomes an accelerated learning event. And so something bad happens your

event. And so something bad happens your brain's like pay attention because it's like I'm going to learn and you're I'm going to permanently change our behavior to make sure this doesn't happen again.

And so it's not this and I hear this because a lot of people will anthropomorphize uh you know make human or you know try and bi biologize um that's a word go for it

um something that occurs it's like it's stored in your body and I was like we're not computers right it's just that you have a behavior set and all we have to do is change these behaviors and then it eliminates and so um the reason so this

all started with feedback and so the reason feedback is fuel and what makes feedback good versus bad or rather useful versus non-useful is the latency of the feedback, how quickly do you get it, and how specific is it? And so if

you say, "Hey, that sucked in the moment." That not helpful. I will be

moment." That not helpful. I will be less, what it will do is make me less likely to do the thing in front of you.

Right? If you said that on the flip side, if you were to say immediately, hey, real quick, when you do your intro, raise your tone a little bit at the end because I think it'll actually create more curiosity and people want to stay longer. Okay, do the

intro again. There, I have a very

intro again. There, I have a very specific piece of feedback and I did it immediately so that the likelihood that you change behavior is really high and maybe that it sticks. And so the reason feedback is full and ideally if you're trying to change someone else's behavior or even your own, it's like I want to

seek out very fast feedback that's as specific as possible to the behaviors.

And so um I tell the story a lot because it's a it's a story that we tell inside of our company because it's almost become lore. But we had a a director

become lore. But we had a a director super proficient, very competent in his role, really high performer. The problem

was that everyone said he's such a dick.

And the thing is is that I really like I liked his performance and I want to decrease the likelihood that I get complained to about him. And so he had four different people in the company have like one-on- ones with him being like, "Hey, I need you to stop being a

dick." And the thing is his behavior

dick." And the thing is his behavior didn't change. And so I I was supposed

didn't change. And so I I was supposed to be like final boss in this situation and be like, "All right, let's let's let's have the sit down." And so I said, "Hey, I I don't care if you are a dick on the inside. I would like to decrease the likelihood that other people

describe you as one." And so I want to be clear. I have no judgment. I just

be clear. I have no judgment. I just

want to change this likelihood of this outcome. And so that kind of took the

outcome. And so that kind of took the personal attacks out of the conversation. And then it was like,

conversation. And then it was like, okay, so what are the behaviors you do skill-wise as minutely as possible that get people to say this about you? So it

turned out it was you interrupt people on calls, uh you tell people how to do their jobs and and it was two other things, whatever it was. And so I said, "So next time you have the, you know, desire to tell someone uh what to do

about their job, you have two options.

Either say nothing or say, hey, I I heard this thing that might help. Do you

mind if I share it?" If you just say that first and if they say no, then just be like, "Okay, no worries." or they say yes, then now you have permission to share it. And when you share it, share

share it. And when you share it, share it in terms of behaviors, criticism, not insult. And so I just had to change a

insult. And so I just had to change a couple of those things. And then within a week, people were like, "Oh my god, he's had he's a night and day. He's a

different person. They create all these narratives. Maybe it was because his mom

narratives. Maybe it was because his mom did hug him. She called him or because we told him what to do instead." And so I I I bring this up because I think many people do not take action around pursuing their dreams because of

narratives that they create about their past. But the reality is that none of

past. But the reality is that none of that matters because all we have to do is just say what do we need to do instead under these conditions. And if

we if we take that premise then you need to learn and learning means same condition new behavior. And so if every day is the same for you to your point of insanity then you have the same

conditions and if your behavior has not changed then maybe you are insane or at least for at least we're expecting a different outcome.

Yeah.

And so that I think makes it significant more palatable of like just change this one thing and then run it again. Yeah.

How does someone who's taking that feedback, trying to get better, and the results just not changing, they're not getting closer to the outcome?

Yeah.

Two questions. The first is how do you know when it's time to give up?

And how do you keep going when things are not working?

So, this is um there's a like there's a handful of what I call like eternal questions that can I don't think uh they're more dichotoies to be managed than problems to solve. And so how much

should I consume today versus invest into tomorrow? How much uh how much risk

into tomorrow? How much uh how much risk am I willing to take? Uh which is the classic should I push or should I pivot for an entrepreneur? And the answer that no one's going to like is that it's actually up to you. So there's kind of

like good failure and bad failure. So

good failure is like I tried something and I I saw that it didn't work and I realize what I need to do instead and I'm going to iterate continuously. Bad

failure is where I have a an assumption that the world or the conditions were going to be this way and my assumption was false. And so if I believed that

was false. And so if I believed that people really wanted to have uh dog Zoom calls or whatever, right? A Zoom a Zoom made for dogs. Let's just take a ridiculous example. Well, then I would

ridiculous example. Well, then I would have to take a couple of need to like in order for this to be successful, these four things would have to be true. If I

find out after starting some iterations that one of my three or four assumptions that underpin this being successful long term is not true, then I should not keep trying to pursue this. And that is where I would say we need to pivot. In a

situation where none of the conditions that I or none of the the need to beliefs have changed, all of those conditions are still the same and it's a it's a it's a deficiency in skill. Then

that is where I would push.

Now, how long will it take is going to be completely predicated on how quickly you can learn and the quality of that feedback. And so to your point, I think

feedback. And so to your point, I think you said coach, community, and what was the other one?

Commitment.

Commitment.

Some of consistency.

Yes. And so um the the commitment part um if you want to increase your commitment in anything. So I define commitment by uh the elimination of alternatives, right? So marriage is the

alternatives, right? So marriage is the ultimate commitment. You eliminate all

ultimate commitment. You eliminate all alternatives, right? And so it's like we

alternatives, right? And so it's like we want to get married to this opportunity.

We get married to this business. We have

to eliminate all alternatives. Which

means when your friend says, "Hey, I made 10 grand doing this thing." You

say, "That's amazing. I don't know anything about that and I know I know two months of suffering from this one and I'm going to start at zero there, so I'd rather be two months in on this one." Um but the but with that push or

one." Um but the but with that push or pivot um we have to just take things to the natural extreme which is how I like to do it which is okay well if I do this for 10 years and I keep getting better do I think it's likely that I'll succeed and the answer is usually yes and so

it's like well then I just keep need to keep paying down those iterations and I think Naval said it's not 10,000 hours it's 10,000 iterations and I tend to believe that.

Your new book's called 100 million dollar money models.

Yeah.

It's like you know I think there'll be people listening who like I just want to make 100k a year. There'll be people saying, "I want to make 100k a month."

And then there'll be people saying, "We want to make $100 million business."

What's the difference at each of those levels?

And what are you sharing here that you haven't shared in the $und00 million series before?

So, um, I'll take those questions one at a time. So, I'll start with the second

a time. So, I'll start with the second question, which is, what's different about this book? So,

offers answer the question, what do I sell? And so, is an offer so good people

sell? And so, is an offer so good people feel stupid saying no? So, basically

broke down the components of an offer.

So we gave a little example of one 5 hours for free. It's a very simple offer, right? But there are offers that

offer, right? But there are offers that you can include guarantees, you can include scarcity, you can include urgency, you can include bonuses and then the actual core value itself.

There's a way to increase the value of anything. So we use something called the

anything. So we use something called the value equation, which is probably the most known framework I have, which is there four people say like create value, but when you say how do I operationalize that? If I say to a 5-year-old create

that? If I say to a 5-year-old create value, they're like I don't know what that means. And so how do we break that

that means. And so how do we break that down in behaviors? So one is that some dream outcomes are going to be more valuable to somebody than something else. So, if I go to a guy and say,

else. So, if I go to a guy and say, "Hey, I can make you rich." Or some or I say, "Hey, I can make you good-looking."

Most men in general will say, "I'd rather be rich." If you go to women, it flips the other way. But for them, that means that the outcome itself is going to be some outcomes are worth more than others. That's one element of value. The

others. That's one element of value. The

second element of value is perceived likelihood of achievement. How risky is it? How likely is it to occur? So, if I

it? How likely is it to occur? So, if I said, "Hey, I can make you rich and it's guaranteed," it's going to be significantly more valuable than if it's uh you have to take a huge amount of risk. The third variable is going to be

risk. The third variable is going to be speed. So from the time you make the

speed. So from the time you make the decision to the time you get what you want. Hey, I can guarantee that you're

want. Hey, I can guarantee that you're going to get rich but it's going to take 20 years. Plenty of people make that

20 years. Plenty of people make that like but a lot of people are like well but now this 20 years I want to get rich tomorrow. Right? So time is going to be

tomorrow. Right? So time is going to be component of it. And then the fourth component is is effort and sacrifice which is two sides of the same coin.

Effort is all the things that you must do that you don't want to do as a result of this decision. And on the flip side sacrifice is all the things you have to give up that you would prefer to do but you can no longer do as a result of the decision. And so if we want to make the

decision. And so if we want to make the most valuable offer, then we want to create something that is a huge dream outcome that happens guaranteed, that is immediate, and that they don't have to

do anything for. Now, no offer is that good, but those are the hypothetical extremes, the ideals that we strive towards. And I think that's a beautiful

towards. And I think that's a beautiful thing for entrepreneurs is that all we try to do is just get closer and closer to all four of those pillars.

So that is the core of the offers book.

The lead's book is the core four. So we

went over earlier. So how do you promote anything? And so that book takes all

anything? And so that book takes all eight of the components core four you do and then uh the core that other people do on your behalf and breaks down in nitty-gritty detail step by step how to do them. This book answers the question

do them. This book answers the question how do I make money right? And so it's like okay well I know what to sell and I know how to advertise it but how do I turn that process into making money? And

so most people uh like the thing that separates when I look back on all the companies that I've owned, advised, sold, um the thing that separated the businesses that were moderately successful from the ones that were exceptionally successful is that they had a better money model. And a money

model is the core economic unit of the business. So it's a deliberate sequence

business. So it's a deliberate sequence of offers that is ideally tailored to do one financial outcome, which is you collect enough cash from one customer in

the first 30 days to get and service two more customers.

And so when you have that amount of cash up front, then it unlocks cash flow for the business to grow as much as it wants or at least until the next constraint of the business. And so when I looked at

the business. And so when I looked at all the money models that I created is there's basically four four different objectives to make that happen. So one

is how do I get more people interested?

So that's going to be the nature of the offer. You know buy X get Y free

offer. You know buy X get Y free giveaways things like that that like okay I can structure this thing in a way that makes way more people interested than just saying hey buy my thing. The

second element is okay how do I get those people to spend more money than they otherwise would. So there's

different money models around that. The

third is going to be how do I make them spend their money faster? How do I pull that cash flow forward? And then the fourth element of good money is a money model is how do I get them to do it again and again and again which can either be recurring in a membership or reoccurring like Coca-Cola. You still

buy it again and again it's just not on subscription. And so if you have all

subscription. And so if you have all four of those things then you have a business that can create tons and tons of demand get lots and lots of money upfront and get people to buy again and again which then creates stability and cash flow for the business long term.

And so that is basically the four pillars of the book and it's broken down in those four steps of these are the these are the front-end offers that do this. These are the the transition

this. These are the the transition points to how do I get someone to take the next thing that's going to be more expensive or how to get to take the bottom thing or how to create pain points, how to create downells, all of those components which ultimately make businesses significantly more

successful. And I started writing this

successful. And I started writing this in 2019. It was the first book that I

in 2019. It was the first book that I started. So it was actually called um

started. So it was actually called um lead lead generation to monetization structures which you know very very sexy name. Um but this was uh I had a mentor

name. Um but this was uh I had a mentor that told me hey you're in the sale process right now. you should document all the artifacts uh kind of crystallized knowledge at that point and so that is what started that book. Now

offers and leads were basically that book was like this thick and I was like this is I can't so I actually peeled off offers and then finished that first and then peeled off leads and finished that second and then finally I can get to the

money models which is actually what I started six years ago.

And so I' I've I have not publicly talked about any of the structures in this book and I feel like I'm giving birth I've been I've been pregnant for six years. uh you know, conceptually

six years. uh you know, conceptually pregnant and I want to give birth to this thing because I I think that this will make the largest impact on business owners bottom line of anything that I've ever made. And it's been the source of

ever made. And it's been the source of the vast majority of my material success is being able to do this because when you have a superior money model, it gives you padding to be bad at everything else because you finally make more money per

customer than anyone else does in your space, which means your advertising doesn't have to be as good. You don't

have to be as good at sales. your your

your like the offer itself might not necessarily be as good, but when you sequence these things together properly the right way, then you can unlock skill in the business and then with that cash flow buy down that ignorance debt and then get give yourself time to to get

good at all the other stuff.

And what starting point would you say this book's aimed at? Like where is someone at in their journey?

You can start at zero because you could start. So what's interesting about those

start. So what's interesting about those four things is that you don't need all four. You just need one.

four. You just need one.

And over time because if you were trying to do a business that had all four, you had recurring, you have upfront, like you would be completely inundated. So,

we would start with the first thing, which is some sort of attraction offer.

How do we get something that's that's more designed to get more customers or more people to engage in your original reachout, your paid ad, your your content, whatever it is. Um, and so I have the five most successful structures

that I have used and detailed step by step exactly how to execute them. And

what's interesting is that this is the stuff that so the offers book when it came out, there wasn't a single other book about offers, which is interesting.

And then it became kind of a household name which is it was this massive gap in the space but as soon as you see it you're like this is everything you know like this is how all of it works. I I

think that money models will be that same thing where there's not a single book that ties those concepts together and as soon as it I think it will it will exist in that that huge gap that once you see it you can analyze any

business in that same way and specifically your own.

Yeah I love it Alex. I'm honestly like listening to you today and and I've consumed your content for a long time now. listening to you in person

now. listening to you in person consistently for this long around the models that you've built is is a real treat, man. It's it's it's so well

treat, man. It's it's it's so well thought through. It's so systematic. I

thought through. It's so systematic. I

love the way you think, the way you've been able to train yourself to realize that everything's built on behaviors and the ability even something that you said to me that's really going to stay with me because I think about it in such a

similar way, but it's so obscure. Like

we we have a lot of similarities in our beliefs and but some of them are a bit more from different angles, which I which I love.

Yeah. from different angles, but some of them are a bit more they're from different angles, but some of them are a bit more widespread held. But your one thing you talked about today about how when you watch people say what they

regret, and I think about that all the time. I'm

like, of course you regret you didn't spend enough time with your family, but you're totally taking away from all the benefits you just got right now. And

I'm not saying people shouldn't spend time with their family. It's just when you said that today, that was one thing that I was like, I can't believe like to have the ability to think it through to

that level to not just take something at face value. And I think that's that's

face value. And I think that's that's the skill I see you have. Thanks.

Like that's the expert you're at is that you don't take anything at face value. I

appreciate and and that's hard because it requires you to dig deep to figure out, well, what is the behavioral science here?

What is the what is the exchange here?

Like what emotions are we talking about?

I picked out some of my favorite Alex Wosi quotes because I had to because there's so many. All right, we've touched on some of this, but it'll be good to get your reaction to them again.

All right, so this one I love because I think it's so true. Most people want to become

true. Most people want to become millionaires because of what being a millionaire allows you to do, not because of what you have to do to become a millionaire.

What do we do about that mindset?

It's uh it's wanting the view without the climb. It's uh Jimmy Carr has a

the climb. It's uh Jimmy Carr has a great quote on this. Uh it's uh everyone wants what you have but not what you did to get it.

I think that if we make who we become the goal rather than the thing that we achieve instead of winning once a decade, we can win every day because you can

continually get better at being who you are and then the achievement is just one milestone along along the path. But at

least in my experience is as I've actually approached milestones when it becomes increasingly likely that I'm going to achieve it, it matters less and less. When I was in the lifting world,

less. When I was in the lifting world, if I if I thought whatever my lift was and added 100 pounds, I would be like, "Oh my god, man, if I lifted that, that would be insane." But by the time you actually do lift that, you also lifted 5 lbs less than that before and you lifted

10 pounds less than that before. So,

you're like, "Well, it's really not that big of a stretch anymore." And so, it actually in some ways it's it's not even nearly as fulfilling as you think it is.

Cuz by the time it happens, you're so close to it, it seems obvious. And so um shifting from who I become rather than what I achieve or who I become as the achievement um has been a wonderful

reframe for like sure you want to be a millionaire but what you really want to do is become the person who can become a millionaire and that you can win every day and then that takes away the um I don't want to do the things that Yeah. And that comes to one of the

Yeah. And that comes to one of the things you talk about a lot that I love is sense control. Like that that to me I think one of the earliest clips I saw of yours was someone had asked you something like you know what do you

what's a trait you see in successful people and I think you'd said three things and I loved hearing that third one. The first one was I think you said

one. The first one was I think you said something like you know they're all people who who have high standards so they they want they expect a lot from themselves. Yeah. The

second was but at the same time they they're good at not being that hard on themselves when they don't get there.

Emotional control. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the third thing was like sense control if I'm not wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. The other one was uh so it's this which one did I get wrong?

No. No. It's like uh you have this uh inflated sense of self so you believe you can achieve great things.

Yes. That's it.

You have this crippling insecurity that that pushes you away. Yeah. And

then the third is that you can control your emotions.

Yeah. And that that third and and I've always thought it's the high standards, high grace. That's my language around

high grace. That's my language around it.

But the third one of of that selfmastery, what do you think is the number one emotion that people don't know how to control

that leads to failure?

That is such a good question, fear.

Because I think one of the one of the most one of the wildest questions um that I read that you know kind of stuck with me was like what would you do if you weren't afraid?

And I think that's just a such a such a a powerful question to ask because every person has the the fear is the thing that gives you the hundred reasons. And

what's really interesting about this is that we are our brains are exceptionally good at finding problems which is why I'm a big fan of inverted thinking. So,

how can I think about all the ways to kill my business and then do the opposite? You'll your brain is so much

opposite? You'll your brain is so much better at spotting problems than spotting opportunities. And so, it's

spotting opportunities. And so, it's like use that problem that problem finding thing and then just flip it. And

it sounds like, oh, well, I would just think of the opportunities that way.

It's like it doesn't actually work. You

actually have to think for the threats and then flip them.

But that's genius. I love that.

that's genius. I love that.

Yeah, that's Charlie Mongers. That's,

you know, you know, rest in peace. Um,

but from a from a fear perspective, it's I think it's playing it out. It's like

what what am I actually most afraid of?

And so fear typically only lives in the vague, not in the specific. We tend to catastrophize to death. So if I make this post and people laugh at me, I'll get shunned and then I'll eventually go alone and then die, right? So it's like

everything just goes to like death, right? And so playing it out into the

right? And so playing it out into the specific is like, okay, well, I make this post, some people will like it and some people won't. And maybe I'll get some negative comments. If I get negative comments, I'll get more reach.

So maybe that's not a terrible thing.

And then and then that night I will have dinner, right? And that night I will go to bed,

right? And that night I will go to bed, right? And so uh making making it really

right? And so uh making making it really really specific and then just to add one more thing on that. The other really big downside of being human from an opportunity moneymaking perspective is

that we underestimate the upside and we overestimate the downside. And that has been incredibly valuable for us to stay alive and not very valuable for us to make

money. And so when you if you're in the

money. And so when you if you're in the developed world, the the the absolute worst case scenario is that you still have I say fortress, you still have you still have a cover and you still have

food and you still have air and you still have water because in the developed world all those things are available to anyone. And so it's like okay so the worst case scenario is that I live and I'm completely free and no one bothers me. It's like you know that actually sounds not so bad

when you actually play it all the way out. And so um I think playing it out

out. And so um I think playing it out and actually really thinking what would I then do? Well, I probably reach out to Sarah and she would let me sleep on her couch. Okay. So, and I would I would ask

couch. Okay. So, and I would I would ask her if you can play. I'd be like, "Hey, Sarah, if I were to do something and I were to fail, how long would you let me sleep on your couch?" She's like, "I'd give you 6 months." And you're like, "Okay." So, it al all of a sudden

"Okay." So, it al all of a sudden becomes concrete. And I think that that

becomes concrete. And I think that that starts to really evaporate fear rather than like, "Oh, I will die."

Totally. Yeah. I remember that when I when I made the leap. I was like, and and of course I was in a position to be able to say this, but I was like, "Okay, well, I'll just go back to what I was doing. Like, if this didn't work, I will

doing. Like, if this didn't work, I will just go back. like I'll figure out a way get the job back and I'll get the job back and I and I'll and I'll go back to do it and and that was the reality and of course it was still at the time when I felt this was

taking up all of that.

All right, another one that I love this this one really really hit me and and I feel it's going to resonate with a lot of people if you haven't heard it yet. People fail not because there's

yet. People fail not because there's some magical list nobody has. They fail

because it's an obvious list nobody does.

I'm so happy you like that one. It

didn't like I I just just to give kudos to Jay here, you picked out tweets that were not like super banger high performers, but like I wrote these and I was like this is like this is a thing.

I picked ones that really I didn't pick them based on performance. I picked them based on like I was like I read this I was like yes like I like that. So just kudos to you for that because I it makes me feel good. Um

but yeah, so I mean this is a super known one but like the magic isn't the work that we're not doing right. It's

the obvious list. um if you were trying to get in shape, you know, you should eat less and you should move more. You

know that. And so I used to even do these with when I would have a weight loss customer would come in the door and they'd be like, "So tell me more about the" and I would just say like, "Do we really need to get into it?" Like you already know what you're supposed to do.

The question is why you aren't doing it.

That's what I'm here for.

And so in a lot of these situations, like you probably know that if you're going to invest, you should uh you know, wait 10 years. And if you're not willing to wait 10 years, then you shouldn't buy it. Which means that if you're like,

it. Which means that if you're like, "Well, I don't have the time to do that research." Then don't invest. increase

research." Then don't invest. increase

your active income, right? Um and so and all these things like, okay, well, how do I increase my active income? Well, I

know I need to do more than I currently am. I know I need to put my stuff out

am. I know I need to put my stuff out there. And so, one of my favorite frames

there. And so, one of my favorite frames around this is um it's the Solomon paradox, right? And so, for those who

paradox, right? And so, for those who don't know in the Bible, Solomon, wise wise man. Um but it's called the Solomon

wise man. Um but it's called the Solomon paradox because he gave amazing advice, but his life was in shambles. And so,

the thing is is that we're exceptionally good at giving advice and very good and very bad at following it for ourselves.

And so what's interesting is that you they actually did studies on this where they had people they they whitewashed someone's existing circumstances and their conditions and had the same people not knowing they were criticizing themselves give critiques to this person

what to do to improve their lives. And

the thing is is that none of the people were actually doing it. And so the thing is um I like that frame because if you parachute your sorry project yourself in the future and look back and say okay what would 80 years old version of me

tell me to do for some reason it kind of like disembodies yourself a little bit and you can get back and say well I would tell myself to do this this and this. And the thing is is that you have

this. And the thing is is that you have complete context on your situation. And

so sometimes it's some of the best advice you can get. And I know this is kind of like the inverted thing where you're like oh why why just actually go through the process and say I'm going to write down a conversation with myself

that's 80 years old. what would he or she tell me to do? Um, and it probably is that obvious list that no one does, not the magical list that no one knows.

Because the thing is is that like the clues of success are in plain sight.

It's just that the sweat that's require the price tag associated with them is the one that people don't want to pay.

So people don't really give up on their dreams. They give up they they see what it takes to get their dreams and then decide it's too expensive.

And I think that's the big thing is is they think it's mispriced. And maybe it is. And I think that's okay. But my my

is. And I think that's okay. But my my preference would be that many people say, you know what, that's not worth it to me. And then be like, great, you've

to me. And then be like, great, you've won. Like, you've won. You don't need to

won. Like, you've won. You don't need to get anywhere. You've already won where

get anywhere. You've already won where you're at. So that's at least my my

you're at. So that's at least my my thought on it.

Yeah. I love that. How does it how does someone who listens to this episode versus someone who applies this episode live differently today or tomorrow?

Well, if someone just listens to the episode, tomorrow will be the same for you. Uh, so that's that's an easy one.

you. Uh, so that's that's an easy one.

This was just entertainment for you.

Just define in terms of actions what you were going to do. I mean, that is really it. And so like you can prove to

it. And so like you can prove to yourself that you learned something from this podcast rather than just being entertained by this podcast by simply doing something different, taking an action. And so maybe it is just

action. And so maybe it is just recording that selfie video and texting it to 100 people. That's it. You could

just do that and you would have I mean you would be so much further ahead than than you were yesterday. And what's

crazy is that the amount of uh progress that you make in that first 20 hours is greater than any amount of progress that you will likely make over the remainder of your career because going from absolutely terrible to proficient

happens so fast. Now, to be clear, all of the gains come from going from proficient to master, which take a huge amount of time, but it's it's one of the most exciting times because you're like, "Oh my look, I can build an app now." Or

look, I can build a web page or look, I I can I can show other people how to sell stuff, whatever it is. And I think I would I would just want to get to that, like get to that fast learning curve as fast as you can. And the only way we can do that is starting.

I love it. All right, here's another one. I don't know if it's a popular one

one. I don't know if it's a popular one or not, but deleting work life balance for a season nets you more work life balance over a lifetime.

So, I I love this uh frame shift, which is everyone talks about work life balance, but no one talks about it over what timeline.

Paul Graham said this from Y Cominator.

He said um in order to make a million dollars, you have to endure a million dollars worth of pain. And so you might be able to endure a million dollars worth of pain over 40 years or you can crunch it into four crazy years and then

after that you can have whatever you want to have afterwards. And so I I think about life in seasons rather than in you know on on microcosm of days and and even weeks and I think that shifting

that perspective will really only solve one core problem for people which is that they feel like they are doing something wrong by making a sacrifice today. And there's always going to and

today. And there's always going to and again it's an eternal question. How much

do I how much do I risk? Uh how much do I consume versus invest? These are

classic human problems that will never have a correct answer. And it's more what's the correct answer for you and your season right now based on the goals you have. And so I think if anything I

you have. And so I think if anything I would want that quote to give some people permission to work a weekend every once in a while to to take the five to nine on both sides of the day and say you know what I

am going to be unbalanced and that's okay because at least in my observation and probably yours I have yet to see a hyper successful person who doesn't have a wildly unbalanced life or at least for a significant period of time

and we want to just make sure that we're not looking at someone once they are a billionaire and saying what are they doing now because they might be in a different season now and so don't look at what you know Warren Buffett's doing when he says, "If I make two good decisions a year, I've had a good year."

Well, if you make two good decisions a year, you're still probably not you're not going to be Warren Buffett, right?

Um, and so I I think about that as my as as a my frame.

Yeah. Don't read someone's chapter 20 when you're writing your chapter one.

Like, it doesn't make any sense. And I

remember growing up, not growing up, I remember a few years ago when Gary Gary's version that I loved, which was like in his words, and so I'll say, "Eat [ __ ] for two years and then eat caviar

for the rest of your life." Yeah.

I'm going to be really balanced for 10 years. And I was thinking about the

years. And I was thinking about the other day and you said seasons and I was saying this the other day when I was on tour. I was talking to Jesse Sler and I said this to Jesse. We were

talking about something similar and I was just like I would never want a day a perfect day is not a day where it rains, snows, sun and fall, right? Like that's not a

perfect day. Like you wouldn't say that.

perfect day. Like you wouldn't say that.

You would say, "I hope it rains today. I

hope it snows today. I hope it's sunny.

And I hope the leaves shed." Like,

that's not a perfect day, but that's what you want every day. And nature's

already showing you the cycles that work.

Yeah.

But we're trying to go against nature by saying, "I want everything to happen today."

today." And I want all my days to be over the halfway line.

Yeah.

And so I think about this from a law of large numbers perspective, which is let's say you have 365 days in a year.

Um, and there's going to be, if you change nothing, the bottom 10% of days, you're going to have 36 days in the year that are bottom 10% days that are, there's nothing wrong with a day. It's

just that this happens to be a bottom 10% day. And so, I think a lot of

10% day. And so, I think a lot of suffering comes from just the normal volatility or variation that exists in life and then somehow ascribing meaning to it and saying, "Oh, and because this

is the bottom 10%, it is bad." Rather

than it is sunny, it is rainy and I need rain in order to appreciate sun. Yeah.

Right. And so it's like we can't have just upside. It's the trade-offs. Like I

just upside. It's the trade-offs. Like I

want all the good without the bad. But

the bad is what makes the good good.

Yeah. Yeah. And and the bad is what sometimes what keeps you going. Yeah.

Cuz if it was just good, maybe you'd stop, maybe you'd give up.

Last one of these that I wanted to pick out, which I think is going to help a lot of people because I've been doing it a lot. I'm wring my third book right

a lot. I'm wring my third book right now, and this has changed my life.

It's amazing how much you can get done if you work for 12 hours without your phone.

So, I mean, so simple yet so profound. So I defined so the here's the the the number one the the highest value productivity hack that I can give anyone. So this is the the

hack of productivity do nothing except for the task you set out to achieve.

That's it. So everything that people do in order to increase productivity that is not working on the task at hand is by very definition making them less productive like period. And so I think people have these very long routines. I

think they have these like I got to get in the mood. I got in this mode. It's

like what if you could start taking action despite your mood and then get into the mood faster through taking the action. And so all of the things that

action. And so all of the things that have made me more productive in life have been through elimination not addition. And so it is eliminating

addition. And so it is eliminating outside stimulus besides the one task that I'm working on. And so if we think the hypothetical ideal or hypothetical extreme of the most focused person in the world is that that person would do literally nothing besides that one thing

which means they wouldn't eat, they wouldn't sleep. Now at some point you're

wouldn't sleep. Now at some point you're like okay well in order for he has to eat and he has to sleep. Okay. So every

other hour is just this one thing. And

so if we take that as a hypothetical extreme, we want to approximate that or get as close as possible to that extreme as humanly possible. And so for me, it's good night's sleep, knowing what I'm going to start on the day before.

Caffeinate earplugs. I I double ear plug. I put the plugs and I put the

plug. I put the plugs and I put the things on. And I work in a room that has

things on. And I work in a room that has no windows. Now some people are like

no windows. Now some people are like that's depressing for me, but for me it allows me to lose myself in my work, not get distracted by something that's going on outside.

Well, I was just about to say I'm glad you brought up environment because everyone has an environment they thrive in. So I'm the same. I need I need

in. So I'm the same. I need I need instrumental music. I don't can't have

instrumental music. I don't can't have music with lyrics when I'm thinking like I just I just can't do it. So I I have some artists that I'm happy to listen to instrumentals of. It also can't be songs

instrumentals of. It also can't be songs that I know. It has to be music that's totally unpredictable and totally random because it helps me with creativity.

Then I do need windows. I need natural light, but I need to not see anything real happening. So it's like sky tree.

real happening. So it's like sky tree.

It's like it's uh nondescript and there's not like a mall.

Correct. Yeah. Not people. It can't be people. And I I can't work in noisy

people. And I I can't work in noisy coffee shop. Like I can't work in

coffee shop. Like I can't work in environments like that. And to me, the environment is more important than this whole mood builder thing because that's like deep work. Like

you're in the cave doing the thing.

Can I can I tell a wild example?

Yeah.

So I believe you if you control the conditions, you can control the outcome, right? If you know all the variables.

right? If you know all the variables.

And so if we want to be productive, we want to control as many of those conditions as possible. And so to type hypothetical extreme, if I were to say, "Hey, I guarantee um that everybody who's listening to this, if we were all in one room, I could get everyone naked without saying a word." People would

hear that and be like, "Oh my god, that's insane."

that's insane." What I would do is I would lock all the doors and I would turn up the the heat to 200 and then just wait. And

eventually everyone would get naked. And

the point to that is that we can reconstruct the environment to get the desired outcome if we control as many of those variables as possible. And so you if you don't feel as productive as you want, you get distracted easily, you might not have even given yourself a

shot, right? And if you're trying to work

right? And if you're trying to work while having your notifications on, while letting people text you and call you, and you're at, you know, in a in an area where people are coming by and like, is this is this chair free? Is

this table free? And you're constantly getting pulled. It's like, you haven't

getting pulled. It's like, you haven't even gotten a chance. And maybe you have a roommate who who walks in and out, maybe they listen to music. I'm like,

and the thing is is that many people are in those conditions and they're like, man, I I think I have I think I have a medical condition. I think I need to get

medical condition. I think I need to get medicated. And it's like, dude, you

medicated. And it's like, dude, you didn't give yourself a shot. Like Jerry

Seinfeld talks about how his his writing condition is he has a desk in a room that has nothing else and he's got a pad and he's got a pen and he's he doesn't have to write but he can't do anything else.

And so if we define commitment as the elimination of alternatives then we need to commit to the work. Yeah.

Right. If focus is anything that is not the work is not the work then that's it.

And so I think that we get there through elimination not through addition.

Yeah. I felt that. I felt that. I think

it's going to help a lot of people. And

I I you're so right. Like even it's so funny you say that. Up until 6 months ago, I started to think I was like, has my brain just been rewired by Tik Tok?

Like I was like, have I really lost my ability for deep work? And I was having this thought probably like six maybe 12 months ago because I was racking my brain about my new book and it wasn't as clear as it

used to be and whatever.

And I just started to do what I always used to do.

Yeah. And all of a sudden it's all gone away. And I was like, I'm writing like

away. And I was like, I'm writing like for eight hours a day, Saturday and Sunday on a new book every week. I love

it. I'm in the zone. I'm in the room that I write in. And and I was like, oh, it's it's it's right there. It's just I didn't give myself the opportunity because I was trying to do it with the other distress. Trying to squeeze it in. It's

distress. Trying to squeeze it in. It's

like you can't squeeze it in focus. It's

a it's a jealous mistress.

It requires all your attention.

Yeah.

Love it. Alex, we end every episode with a final five. These questions get asked to everyone. Um, and so these are your

to everyone. Um, and so these are your final five. They have to be answered in

final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

Okay.

So, question number one, Alex, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Do so much work it would be unreasonable for you not to be successful?

Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Follow your passion.

Question number three, a piece of advice you wish you received sooner.

Find people better than you and do whatever you can to get them to help you, including helping them first without expectation.

Question number four, a lesson that took you far too many times to learn.

Focus. One thing all in.

And fifth and final question. We ask

this to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law

the show. If you could create one law that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

Everyone has to give all their wealth away at the end of their life.

I love that one.

But not to your kids, but not No, but it has to Yeah, exactly. It has to be given away to kids or every or It doesn't matter.

Yeah. No, not to your kids like to Yeah.

Yeah. You're saying beyond your kids.

Yeah. My friend just told me the other day that his dad just took him out the will and his dad's given all his money away to charity and all the kids are not getting anything. He was heartbroken. He

getting anything. He was heartbroken. He

was like, "Oh god, I thought I was going to pay off the mortgage on my house."

It's so funny. So,

there's a Sanskrit saying around that which is um uh if you have a good son, there's no need to accumulate wealth. If you have a bad son, there's no point to accumulate wealth.

And so at the end of the day, that's I mean that's my worldview, which is the reason that I I want the reason that I would want the game to be structured so that everybody has to give all their stuff away at the end is because if you look at second and third

order consequences of that, the people who are the best at allocating or sorry aggregating capital, the people are the best at making money uh would be the ones who are also the best at allocating it. And so you'd actually have the the

it. And so you'd actually have the the best tools and the people who are best skilled to use them. And so if you know you have to give it away, then at some point near the the later part of your life, you would stop trying to amass um

and start trying to you'd focus on giving. And I think most people who do

giving. And I think most people who do give get addicted to giving because they realize they actually it fills a hole that the wealth never did. Yeah.

Right. And so what ends up happening though is that from a societal perspective is that if all the best allocators of capital then tried to solve all the world's problems with the capital they had, so many fewer problems would exist that would the whole world

would get better. The other downstream effect of that is that it would get rid of a huge amount of kind of the cronyism, the the nepotism, the things where, you know, these these seventh generation massive, you know, wealth uh

trust fund, you know, kids were who like it doesn't serve the kids either. You

look at those families, they're a mess.

Um, yeah. Yeah. On on on so many reasons.

yeah. Yeah. On on on so many reasons.

Um, and so I'm a big believer in equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. And so

if everybody's slate was clean day one because no one got daddy's inheritance, then everyone starts at zero as close as possible. Obviously genetics, you know,

possible. Obviously genetics, you know, can can play play a factor there, but I think that's as as equal of a start as we can get. And then everyone starts at zero and and the ones who super win then

turn into super givers.

And I like that.

Yeah. And if you don't, one thing I've learned about that as well is if you don't give now, you won't give later.

this feeling of like when I get a million dollars I'll give more. It

doesn't work that way. It's it's a proportion like it will hurt 10% at a million dollars. It will hurt 10% at

million dollars. It will hurt 10% at 100k. Like it's not that's not going to

100k. Like it's not that's not going to change. And another phrase that we'd

change. And another phrase that we'd always hear in the monastery was uh God doesn't see how much you give, God sees how much you hold back.

And so that's why I like your law a lot because it's that feeling of like, hey, you know, at the end of it, I I gave it all. Uh, the book is called $100 million Money Models, part of the $100

million series. Alex, I hope this is the

million series. Alex, I hope this is the first of many, many conversations we have online and offline. Truly loved our time together. And I'm honestly, I've

time together. And I'm honestly, I've become a bigger fan spending this time with you and uh this this was a masterass for so many. I'm going to be sending this to a lot of people I know who need to There's there's some podcasts that you do and you're just

like, "Yeah, I'm going to send this personally to people in my life who I think this is going to change for." So,

thank you so much, man.

I'm super humbled and very honored. So,

thank you so much for having me.

Thank you, man. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative

self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success, and the secret to genuinely loving what you do. If you're

trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you. Just because I like it, that

for you. Just because I like it, that doesn't give it any value. Like as an artist, if you like it, that's all of the value. That's the success comes when

the value. That's the success comes when you say, "I like this enough for other people to see