Ambition: Migration, Desire and Fatigue in China by Professor Biao Xiang

Honorable guests, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.

Welcome to the HKU Distinguished Social Sciences Lecture Series.

Today's lecture is titled Ambition, Migration, Desire, and Fatigue in China.

My name is Rosita, a year one student from the Faculty of Social Sciences. It

is my pleasure to be your host this afternoon.

Thank you all for joining us today.

To begin, we shall start with the welcoming remarks. Please welcome

welcoming remarks. Please welcome Professor Wen, Dean of the Faculty of Social Sciences at the University of Hong Kong to deliver the welcoming

address. Professor Wen, please.

address. Professor Wen, please.

Thank you. Thank you.

Good afternoon, colleagues, students, participants. On behalf of the Faculty

participants. On behalf of the Faculty of Social Sciences at the University of Hong Kong, I am extremely pleased to welcome you all to attend this event. As

some of you might be aware that uh last of all, our faculty launched a new Distinguished Social Science Distinguished Speaker Series.

And um so our goal was to create a dedicated platform to bring world-class scholars and uh pioneering thinkers to

our community whose work is profoundly inspiring and also impactful and deepening our understanding of our increasingly

complex world. And today's talk marks

complex world. And today's talk marks the second one in this speakers series.

And we've moved our venue from our beloved smaller Social Science Chamber to this lovely hall. So our Social

Science Chamber can house about 80 to air 100 people and this one um where I I believe 250 people to three 300 people can can sit comfortably.

And it is truly wonderful to see so many of you are gathered here today to attend this event, and thank you all for coming.

So, now it's my distinguished distinctive pleasure and honor to introduce our distinguished speaker today, Professor Xiang Professor Xiang is among

contemporary China's most influential anthropologists and thinkers.

He earned his BA and MA in sociology from Peking University, and his PhD in social anthropology from the University of Oxford.

He has been the director of the Max Planck Institute for social anthropology in Germany since 2021.

Having previously served as a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oxford.

Professor Xiang's research addresses one of the defining phenomena of our era, migration and mobility.

He examines diverse form of movement, internal and international, unskilled and highly skilled,

immigration and return migration, as well as the places and people left behind.

Focusing on China, India, and other parts of Asia, he uses migration as a lens to investigate a wider range of

critical issues in political economy.

Through this approach, he has profoundly deepened our understanding of state society relations, labor dynamics, social reproduction,

and the intricate governance of mobility.

His contributions have been widely recognized. He received the 2008 Anthony

recognized. He received the 2008 Anthony Leeds Prize for his book Global Body Shopping and the 2012 William L. Holland

Prize for his article Predatory Princess.

His 2000 Chinese book published in English as Transcending Boundaries in 2005 was reprinted in 2018 and is widely regarded as a contemporary

classic.

His 2020 book Self as a method co-authored with Wu Qi was named the most impactful book of the

year in China by Douban, a widely read online platform. I I I hear some, you

online platform. I I I hear some, you know, smiling and and laughing.

And what truly sets Professor Xiang apart is his commitment to public engagement.

Through public-facing articles and interviews, his ideas regularly spark vital discussions both within China and

globally. His writings have been

globally. His writings have been translated into Japanese, French Korean Spanish German and Italian,

a testament to the universal relevance of his work.

Today we have the extraordinary privilege of hearing from a truly prominent scholar and thinker, Professor Biao Xiang,

um whose groundbreaking work has continually um sparked and inspired and challenged us to rethink and re-examine

how people move, how people live, how people interact with the state and with one another. And with that, ladies and

one another. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, please join me in extending a warm welcome to our distinguished speaker, Professor Baoxiang.

That way was quicker. Yes. Thank you

very much for coming. Thank you,

Professor Wen, for very touching introduction. And

touching introduction. And I'm very pleased to hear that you said uh some of my thoughts may challenge

the audience. I mean, that is what I

the audience. I mean, that is what I want to do because I mean, we are spending our intellectual labor. I mean, intellectual labor ought

labor. I mean, intellectual labor ought to make something, produce something. And

this is something ought to go to the world and make a splash, make some effect. And what kind of effect that can

effect. And what kind of effect that can make is to touch people, move people, and the challenge people.

And in return, I also expect to be challenged by you, especially today, because I'm going to report today is some sort still at the

early stage of development, and I'm still formulating uh what is the best way to convey what I have been thinking.

So, uh I will be really pleased if I hear some difficult questions. I mean, that would be most helpful for me.

And I want to talk about the question uh of ambition, Shang Jin Xin, the heart of moving forward and the moving up.

Um And the related the the reason that I was thinking of is about ambition is one of the most

common and the challenging existential problems that the many young people aged between 20 to 45

in China, but also globally, are facing.

Which is should I still be ambitious?

As we know, in the the term, a very simple term, lying flat, tang ping, triggered widespread debate in China in

2020s.

And by tang ping basically mean people the extreme version is a three nos. No

marriage, no kids, no job, quit everything.

And but a more moderate and a more realistic version is basically one no, no ambition. You know, I'm

ambition. You know, I'm I don't want to make any extra effort. I

just keep the uh uh what I can do and keep the the minimal uh just to be to be above the minimum line

and to in order to to to survive.

Um and there's a reason for so many young people to talk about the tang ping, of course, is understandable.

Many people feel exhausted and the burn out by years of hard work, study, and also uh in their working life, you know, all the

KPI and the pressure become higher and the higher.

And the when the economy uh became stagnant, the growth rate declined, which became quite evident after 2015,

and the young people will feel even have less reason to be ambitious, to try so hard because there's no reward.

And on one hand and I'm so tired, on the other hand, you know, I get nothing for being tired. And of course, I wanted to

being tired. And of course, I wanted to to to to to so-called lie flat and then stop being so competitive, and then stop being so ambitious.

Fully understandable, so no wonder in 2021 when there was a uh uh just online essay called the declaration of uh

uh of a for lying flat, and this is kind of a a manifesto, as some of you may remember, that immediately went viral

and uh and attract lots of uh supporting uh comments.

But, lying a flat lying flat is not a solution.

Practically, I mean, how many people can lie flat all their life? You know, we have to look after our livelihood. I

mean, then you have question of income because nowadays, the if you are coming from middle-class families in cities, it's a true you can rely on your parents for a few years. But, after a while,

it's just a financially impossible, but also socially and psychologically impossible. I mean, the parents start

impossible. I mean, the parents start nagging, that is the worst nightmare you wanted to go through.

And also, where if the life if if the life is truly deprived of ambition, deprived of a

desire to improve, to move forward, the life itself become quite empty and meaningless.

So, somehow we do need ambition.

So, therefore, we have many people now describe themselves as a 40 uh is a the the the 45 degrees. 45 degrees in between zero, you're lying flat, and the

90 degrees that you're working hard.

And then so, this morning when I got up, I tried to position myself to be one of the 45 degrees.

And I found that it is extremely difficult. It is a very very demanding,

difficult. It is a very very demanding, probably it's a much more demanding than the degree 90.

So therefore, degree 45 people, I mean, I think it is for many people it's a it's a it is a quite accurate description.

Is it not a act of balancing? You know,

balancing between ambition and the lying flat, being relaxed, but the rather is a position of being torn. So this is a so difficult.

On one hand, you feel that you should lie flat because you feel so tired and etc. But the yet you feel it's out of necessity, you still have to work very

hard, still very busy.

And then because you think you should lie flat, and actually you even hate you hate what you are busy with even more.

I mean, you don't have the patience to see any point of meaning of the things you are so busy with.

So so 95 is not a balanced action, rather it is really a torn and most distorted position, but it is the most necessary. You know, because you you you

necessary. You know, because you you you now you're torn between uh the two, and then you have to have your income, so therefore you you

keep this 45 uh degree position, uh which means there is lots of confusion and the pain uh about how the life your

life should be led.

So this is a uh the question I I wish to address, and that is not a specific to China. If you

look at the globally, uh you know, job, which is a best seller, it shows how much you know, it's a it's a

very deep resentment of the job uh many professionals are doing. Uh job

mainly are white collar jobs. And the

burnout of society, and also best sellers and then you create a quiet a quiet quit or massive resignation movement in the

US and the social withdrawal in Japan and etc. And yet this are very different from the great resignation despite they sharing

the same name.

Different from the great resignation as advocated by people like Marcuse Herbert Marcuse in late late 1960s and

that time he said in we should just exit from capitalism. We should we should

from capitalism. We should we should resign from this commodity economy and capitalist production system in order to

find out our alternative. So in 1968 the great resignation means a very ambitious revolutionary action.

But today if we look at people talk about life flat and the burnout and the and the resignation is mainly a sign of feeling powerless.

So it's not ambitious project at all.

It's anti-ambition.

So how should we do this?

I mean that is a very important question for individuals but for collective for society this is extremely important.

Because human energy human attention probably is the most precious resources that we have. The question of how we should organize human energy and human

attention.

What kind of ambition is the right way to mobilize people to call people's attention to certain things and what kind of ambition can be rather crushing

and and even oppressive. So that is really a question that we should all think about especially now with a greater

uncertainty and with the economy and the society are going through structural transformation. We should think how we

transformation. We should think how we are going to reorganize our own energy and attention and the reconfigure the meaning of life.

So that is both individual and fundamentally social and the collective.

And why does this all happen now? Before

that, before moving to the I wanted to provide a historical explanation of that. But before that, I

that. But before that, I wanted to introduce a very simple kind of classification just to show as ideal type to illustrate what have

changed. It seems to me

changed. It seems to me that uh the effect of ambition, the social effect of ambition name namely how you

and I experience ambition and how we experience the result of ambition have changed uh over time.

And it changed from what I called a model of with model of ambition or you can say ambition with to a model

just to use the shorthand ambition against.

Ambition with means we seek, pursue betterment with other people

in time and with time and riding on emerging opportunities that come along that come to us along

the way.

And then in this process, you feel growth, you feel the augment of your uh, life force.

And ambition against is a type is a pursuit for improvement against time, against all kind of

constra- uh, constraints, and against odds, against other people through competition, and the fundamentally against yourself. I am not good enough,

against yourself. I am not good enough, so I have to improve. So, two types.

And a typical example of ambition with is sports team.

I mean, sport if you organize a sports team, you can say almost by definition they are very ambitious because they wanted to, you know, compete with others, they want to win, right?

And very ambitious, have a clear goals, and they wanted to to to to improve.

But if you ask each members within the uh, sports team or club, nobody feel pressurized. And the rather, people feel

pressurized. And the rather, people feel opposite. People feel very happy. People

opposite. People feel very happy. People

uh, feel content when they try to improve together with their team members, like and then they train themselves,

take a time, and to uh, uh, uh, uh, enhance their skills, and they compete. And if they win, they celebrate.

But if they lose, it is okay, certainly not the end of the world because through the whole process, they feel their skills have been improved. That is the biggest joy. I

improved. That is the biggest joy. I

mean, I think the biggest joy for sports team actually is with other people.

There is a collective there.

And ambition against uh, the typical image uh, is certainly not a sports team, but the rather, imagine this room. Now, all

of you are taking examination.

And uh, it's the same examination. And

then you are sitting with the many other people.

But you are very ambitious, try to get a good score.

And this is a competition of you against all other peoples in the same room.

And then it's exam, so therefore you are tested.

So you are trying hard in a way against all the questions, against the examina- the the person who set all the examination. And the examination, of

examination. And the examination, of course, you also struggle with against the time.

You have wanted to to to every second matters. You have to be very careful to

matters. You have to be very careful to calculate how many minutes should be spent on this question and other question, etc. So this is also a kind of a collective,

but this is a collective of many isolated individuals.

People are sitting together, doing the same thing, and there's a sameness make you feel fierce competition with

others, against others. And then

uh and the fundamentally the the ambition against lead to a

attitude of against the self.

Blaming the self is not good enough.

And a a a PhD student who is now studying in Europe told me that in the during our conversation, suddenly he said, "You know, I

just the one image keep coming back to me. That image is a winter

me. That image is a winter time in a cold bed in my dormitory in in my high school time. I was reciting to

myself again and again the famous passage of the Mencius.

Probably you can guess what the passage it is because you heard it all the time.

When the heaven is to confer great responsibility to somebody, and then the heaven must

uh suffer that the person's mind and test that person's body. And

and strengthen the bones. Only that

quite a long one, huh?

And he and then two more informants, completely unrelated, told them in the same thing. You know, in high school

same thing. You know, in high school they read again and again.

But all the all the three are a man. So,

there is a bit of gender dimension here.

The female experience the self-denial a little differently, hm?

As as against the self. Um

I would say the female students often deeper sometimes. They kind of

deeper sometimes. They kind of the the self-denial as a condition for self-improvement. Sometimes it's I think

self-improvement. Sometimes it's I think the effects even deeper. But

this this passage the Mencius the passage was cited that and some of you know like the the the

high school model, you know, the the students slogans and to say uh the speech, in in in the kind of shishi dahui, the kind of mobilization

uh assembly, you know. I'm I'm absolutely nothing. I am nothing.

nothing. I am nothing.

Therefore, I have to study hard to go to good university.

Wo shi yi ke cao jie, I'm a one single piece of tiny wild grass seed.

And the only way for me to move forward to to live a life is to study hard and go to university.

It's It's a quite Uh I mean this you can say it is quite specific to student time. When they grow older, people do not use that kind of extreme expression anymore.

But if you look at the people who started working, you know, in their 30s, you still can see the very strong desire of proving their self, of demonstrate

the desire to demonstrate the the achievement in order just to feel their own existence. They are not the one to

own existence. They are not the one to really to get a reward being greedy. No.

They feel that if they don't prove their achievement and they don't get a recognition, they will be nothing. They

cannot exist here. Mhm?

So it's existential rather than just a kind of a max uh uh uh uh maximizing a strategy.

And this is the the ambition uh against. And you can say in a way uh

against. And you can say in a way uh ambition against the sound more natural because you say, "Okay, if I wanted to improve, if I wanted to become better,

somehow logically it implies that I'm not happy with my current situation. So

therefore, self-denial and the self uh uh criticism or sometimes even self-hatred is a natural part is part of the deal of

being ambitious. And the why there is

being ambitious. And the why there is ambition ways I think that's a quite a critical question.

Uh ambition ways is of course also says the current situation is is not a perfect. We have to work hard in to improve.

But this is a situation you and I all share.

And this is a situation you and I can work together to improve.

And the when you and I share the situation work together to improve situation, I'm I'm very happy.

So, I can be very happily to improve our current situation. I don't have to

current situation. I don't have to uh adopt a self-denial in order to improve. I mean, if we use a bit of

improve. I mean, if we use a bit of philosophical uh uh terminology, you can say it's not a matter of denial. I mean, in the ambition with model, it's not a question

of denial, but it's a more negation.

Negation Hegelian, you know, dialectics is to say, "Okay, something else. We

should cultivate something, develop something else in order to replace what do we have now?" And this is how the world evolve. And as this new things

always grow out from the old things. So,

the old things already contains the future things. So, we should cherish the what do we have and then let it grow something new, and then the new will replace the older one. So, this is a

negation. Progression through negation.

negation. Progression through negation.

But, the current I've seen if you talk to many young people in China as I I'm at least the person I talk to is does not have that kind of feeling. They feel

they are being itself is just not good.

Mhm? It's not a something new will grow out of from here. They have to somehow radically uh reinvent the self. So,

radically refashion the self. So,

therefore, it creates sense of of sometimes self-hatred. I mean,

sometimes self-hatred. I mean, self-hatred is tended to be more female uh uh a phenomenon.

Um And then, this is as I said, it's I I uh uh ideal type, but I think the ideal type has a analytical uh value.

It is shows that the question of ambition is certainly not a simply a psychological matter. It's not a

psychological matter. It's not a and it's not a matter of individual trait to say or some people are more ambitious than and others are not. It is not something inside of you. Even though we feel it is

something inside of us, right? We call

the Shang Jing Xin. Xin is the heart.

Heart is of course inside of you. It is

a completely your mental status and etc. But if you look at the different types, how we different ways how we experience ambition, I think it's a really shows

there's a question uh about the relation between ourselves and the world. It is a relation between individual and the society.

So the question is how this relation is organized, is that's the key.

And I just wanted to go through history to demonstrate is the how the organization of the relation between the individual and the society, especially

through the the is the around the question of collective actually caused the current dilemma many young people face.

Uh I just to tell you very quickly my basic conclusion is that it is a loss of concrete collective.

Concrete collective as a form of life, meaning you know, friendship or neighbors and a certain colleagues with whom you have a sense of solidarity, that kind of thing. The loss of that

simultaneously uh created isolated individualism as well as abstract collectivism.

Simultaneously, look at the opposite, but actually they come together. And

these two work together. Isolated individualism

work together. Isolated individualism and abstract collectivism work together create that kind of says against uh uh a model of of ambition, I mean.

Just imagine the examination hall uh situation. And that is what I meant

uh situation. And that is what I meant by the combination of isolated individualism and abstract collectivism

because by sitting together doing the same exam papers and the feels heaviness of the air

hears the tick tick tick over the clock This is the absolutely a collective force.

But you know everyone is doing that and therefore you have to do well in order for you to get the opportunity that you want. And then that the pressure is a

want. And then that the pressure is a creative by nothing else but as a collective.

But this collective is not a concrete form of life.

It is abstract and the force over you.

And then at the same time you sit with the many people together so therefore there's a collective force.

But it's all You sit together as a competitors to each other.

It's isolated individualism, right? And

this is a This is just a metaphor but that we of course we needed to larger political economy about how our education and work even family relations are organized. And

I just go through history by you know through four stages to say how the things have evolved in modern China.

I would I mean nowadays I would the stage one is end of uh 19th century and the first half of 20th century uh

when I would say actually is the time when the modern notion of ambition was born in Chinese society. We feel Chinese society it is quite ambitious society by and

large. I mean like Hong Kong especially

large. I mean like Hong Kong especially you know it's a very entrepreneurial people are kind of restless full energy.

You normally feel that it's a very ambitious society.

Uh people people say oh you know I can always be better.

Um but actually that is a This is my hypothesis. I don't know whether we have historians in the audience. But I feel that is actually

audience. But I feel that is actually very, very recent phenomenon.

If you look at the the political economy of the agrarian economy of Chinese society and then look at the hegemonic ideology of

Confucianism, especially the official version of the Confucianism.

Uh but of course let alone Taoism and the Buddhism. The Chinese society is not a

Buddhism. The Chinese society is not a very ambitious. Basically, the society

very ambitious. Basically, the society always should repeat. The repetition is more important harmony and order. I mean

you if you wanted to stand out to be better than others, that is discouraged.

I mean you do have some uh stories uh very ambitious scholars who become Zhuangyuan or or work very hard and such, but that is for elite, not for ordinary farmers or

uh uh uh craftsmen.

And I tell you a story. You may be surprised. In 1976

surprised. In 1976 or 1977, I'm not very sure about year.

And a one young man from my I mean it's a it's a it's a I read a story later on.

I was too young to observe what I'm going to describe. So I Yeah, I I I I I don't want to mislead you about my age. And

age. And or I try rather I want to make sure that you know I'm not that old. And uh

So 1976 or 1977, a person from my home place and um I think he was doing some trading. Um

it's a craftsman doing some trading related to metal and earned lots of money. Because at that time the economy

money. Because at that time the economy start uh you know the cultural revolution is came into the end. There's

a little market uh mechanism emerging.

And he did that he made the money and he was a who was not married and very young and he built a two-story little house in the village.

So, that was the highest building in the village and also in a quite good spot.

And as a father every day would stand in front of the house with the Mudan Pai Xiangyan that was regarded the most expensive cigarettes

in hand standing in front of the gate to whoever passing the building offer one cigarette.

And then can you guess why the father did that?

Because the father in a way was very worried about what the son did.

You built the highest building in the village.

Now I have to offer cigarettes and offer my respect and offer my humbleness to all the fellow villagers and even to other passengers in order

to save our face.

Because you young guys, you don't know.

You are too ambitious. Now my old I'm more the wise man. Now I have to come out to do you know the the the to compensate for your ambition.

So, that I just want to say in the is that there was a lots of actually cultural sensitivities about ambitions. Ambition was not regarded as

ambitions. Ambition was not regarded as a good thing. And then in the 1990s there's a lots of official propagandas about the so-called Zhifu Guangrong. It

is a glorious to get rich.

And I remember the so-called Wanyuanhu, the peasants who can earn uh 2 10,000 yuan a year would be elected

as a labor model and they were given a a this red flowers on the stage and such that the government officials will come to praise you. Why do they do that?

Because at that time uh many Chinese regard getting rich is a not a good thing to do.

So actually it is a Communist Party have to use uh use all propaganda machinery to tell people you should get rich. Mhm? So to

instill the notion of of of of ambition.

Uh so that's Now it just come to my mind that one of our alumni in Peking University have the famous line in the early 1990s. They said, "Okay, China

early 1990s. They said, "Okay, China need a market economy under the gunpoint." Ta ta He used the word "ci

gunpoint." Ta ta He used the word "ci dao xia de" uh "shi chang jing ji". He meant Chinese society Chinese people are too conservative. So the government must use

conservative. So the government must use some very hard force in order to encourage market economy, encourage commerce.

So just to say that something we take for granted, but in history actually there were lots of turns. But now go back to the question of ambition. So

ambition is not something natural.

Uh but uh the turning point uh was uh now we go back to history, but of course before that we also we did have the notion of

we should catch up, we should improve, right? Like a Great Leap Forward, that

right? Like a Great Leap Forward, that kind of state-led very ambitious a project uh uh was launched before. And now where did

that come from given the very long uh tradition of Confucianism? I think

that came from as the end of the 19th century. It is

really the crisis of the nation because as uh the sudden uh uh uh the Opium War, suddenly the Chinese elite

uh the Manchurians found, "Oh oh god, you know, we thought we are the center of the world, but suddenly all this uh, Bagong Liantui, and the particular

the British uh, just came to bully us like this. Therefore, we have to

like this. Therefore, we have to really deny and criticize our old cultural tradition, and then we have to

reinvent ourselves.

We all know the May Fourth Movement.

The May Fourth Movement is In this sense, is extremely ambitious movement.

They say we should reinvent Chinese culture. We should reinvent Chinese

culture. We should reinvent Chinese people.

And we should reinvent Chinese nation. I

mean, to be honest, the very country, the very few places in the world had been so radical.

And this is a shape our consciousness today and shape Chinese history, and that it has to be analyzed again and again.

But that time, it introduced the idea that human agency is extremely important.

Tradition can be smashed. Dadao

Kongjiadian, smash the Confucius shop.

And you know, young people can be completely freed.

Uh, and then through hard work, you can achieve many uh, greater things. I mean,

so that idea was introduced during the May Fourth I mean, you if you take May Fourth Movement as a peak event of that period.

That you can say called that is a May Fourth spirit.

But the May Fourth spirit and there's a the Jiuguo, the rescue nation uh, movement, of course, were confined to a

small number of elite. Because the most people illiterate, the farmers, I mean, they are not uh, thinking their own life in that way.

or I can't imagine like my grandfather in in QingTian County and they will stand up to say I'm going to reinvent myself.

Uh but there's the people in Beijing the Chengdu shows they will say that but anyway that reshape the elite culture very very clearly.

And then so there I mean what I want sorry I want to emphasize in the at this stage when the idea of ambition was

introduced among the elite culture it it was very closely tied we tied ways a collective imaginary.

The whole idea is to say we have to reinvent ourselves is about the nation.

The unit was a nation is a collective project has to be ambitious.

And the whether or not it has to and what about individual and that time I mean there's a lot of discussion about the individual liberation including

individual emotional freedom and etc. but not so much about ambition.

And the second stage from the 1950s to 19 the early 1980s or the end of 1970s

which a period we can simply call the planned economy period.

A couple of things happened and the most important thing I think is that it introduced a concrete form of collective life.

And at the same time make that kind of ambitious pursuit internalized or individualized.

People individual people feel they have to pursue a a a have to improve themselves.

And there's a reason that this this two important change happened during these

40 years, yes, of 30 years.

I think that at least three.

Number one is that the material basis, the success of socialist revolution in the 1949

established the communist system did it create a material basis in which you can have a collective form

of life. This guaranteed jobs for

of life. This guaranteed jobs for college graduates and of course a very small number but for the mass amount of people, number of people in the countryside you you have a commune

system. Of course we developed through

system. Of course we developed through different stages.

And then you you no free market, no commodities. So

people and it's quite very poor but they quite secured a job and there's no competition, no individual competition for material rewards. So that

is the the the I think it's extremely important because the basic livelihood were not commodities.

And that changed after 1990s. That

that explain what happened now.

This number one. Number two, you know, the work unit and the commune and the school is a very concrete organizational

arrangement of the Chinese society was put in place and the people do have this courtyard culture. I mean courtyard is a

courtyard culture. I mean courtyard is a is a the dormitory attached to factory and the people have live collectively of course in school and so forth.

And the thirdly is this uh, the thought education, so this collective ideology and you sacrifice

for nation and you sacrifice the now for better future and that kind of quite relatively abstract collective collectivist uh,

ideology became internalized and the reason it was a become internalized is a related to the first and second reasons the material condition and the political

economy and organizational structure of life, but of course it is also implemented through quite a rigorous like a thought education and lots of

ideological campaign and etc. I have vivid memory when I was young in the 19 70s, one of most distinct memory of my childhood is

that my parents who are high school teacher secondary school teachers very often had to participate in study sessions in the evening. Study sessions

is to go to back to the school and you read the people's daily or you read as a magazine of the red flag and then listen to the party secretaries speech about the current situation and

etc. And often it took hours and they came home after 9:00. So I was you know, four or five when I was very young. So I

very I remember cry.

So that the study session was a very important part of life at that time.

Then it is through this kind of exercise internalize the feeling that you as a person you just have to pursue your future change you pursue

progression and improvement in order to serve the collective better.

And of course there's a lot of calculation that people have who are ambitious and wanted to be promoted and etc. Uh but by and large for most of people the

reason that they are so mobilized is not for the individual benefit of being promoted. It is genuinely I think they

promoted. It is genuinely I think they identify with the imagined collective.

But most importantly they have very concrete collectives that they live in.

And I'm not I'm I I don't want to romanticize uh life uh under that period at all because there's a lots of feeling of lack of freedom, oppression, and even

brutality involved in that, you know, because when your life is all organized in that collective way especially there's a lots of imposed this assault education and and ideological exercise

and that was not a popular among uh ordinary people. But nevertheless

people. But nevertheless uh that period of time turn this ambitious language that was used to be

the elite language in the in the before the 1950s to very popular language. And

actually nowadays that lots of language is reused after 2010s like discourse of chiku eating bitterness or sacrifice

shishang and etc. And you know, you sacrifice to I mean shankuhoutian, you know, any sweetness must be preceded by bitterness and so forth. All this

language consciousness were introduced during that time but in a very different context.

So that is the second stage is that you have collective form of life and also you have very collectivist ideology and they make this ambition uh

individualized and also very popularized. And the third stage I think

popularized. And the third stage I think we're probably running out of time. I

just go probably skip. The third time is third period is uh uh early stage of reform in the 1980s and

then when this very formal collectivist ideology fade away and also the formal collective organizations also became loosened in

the commune of course was dismantled and work unit became much less effective but the people still maintain

their collective form of life.

Especially the countryside and with that is I'm using my the junk twin work to you know the migrant entrepreneurs at that time. We always

think oh my God these people are so ambitious and so daring they're so risk taking going around at that time they were basically illegal to

migrate to other places over long distance let alone settle down in Beijing let alone settle down in a place only 5 km away from Tiananmen Square.

In the 1980s set up their business and then you ask oh how are you so ambitious and why are you so you know entrepreneurial and so creative they said our way

because my cousin came here and then made the money I simply followed and then my cousin also asked me to bring to I mean some salted meat with me for the New Year and this

is why I came.

And then I came here and I copy what is there doing and that's why I'm here.

And then my cousins and my my childhood friends all here we cook together.

Are we really is that ambitious? But

this is how history is made right?

So I have some cases individual stories to show the creation I mean that was the whole the junk twin book was about how this

very marginal population exercise their own agency through that kind of concrete form of collective life.

Um So, let's uh uh fast forward to the last the fourth

stage, which is the now after 2010s.

Uh I think that this is age that you can say uh we're experiencing the simultaneous decline of concrete collective form of

life and the concentration of abstract uh collectivism collectivism. Yeah.

collectivism collectivism. Yeah.

So, uh what happened? I think the three things

what happened? I think the three things probably are I hope it will illustrate what I want to say. Three uh

developments. Number one is the commodification of uh uh livelihood means means of livelihood, especially

housing. Mhm? That is from 1994

housing. Mhm? That is from 1994 started privatizing housing and by the end of 1990s it was a completed and you

know the Chinese economy has been driven by real estate industry.

And what does it mean when one when the housing become privatized?

And it means that you have saved lots of money uh in order to uh buy uh this very basic thing for your own, you know,

to to to to meet a very basic need, just have a roof above you. But you say, "No, no, I'm buying a house. I'm say working so hard to save money. It's not only to buy an apartment for my own own living

because its value will also increase."

Uh and also more importantly, if I don't work hard and to money now, uh the price will increase then I won't be able to afford it. So, therefore I have to work

afford it. So, therefore I have to work very hard to to buy one. And then buy one then another place, okay, have even better, newer house emerged. I should

move on, I upgrade because my cousin and classmates now already, you know, living in that type of condominium. I'm still

living here without a swimming pool and such. So, I have to move up.

So, So, and then this is the individualization of life, but the very fact, the real estate market operate in this way.

And you believe it is a price will go up and believe it will not only believe but also it's actually going up uh uh all the time and which completely distorted

uh the war, I mean you say the divorced from the actual needs of a human uh of a human life, right? The the uh uh as the real estate industry become a kind

of a force it's in its in own right.

Is a result of collective action.

It's because you're buying and I'm buying, everyone is targeting the same thing. So, collectively we create this

thing. So, collectively we create this collective force which is above and beyond and outside of us and which force us to do lots of

things, compel us to do lots of things, right?

So, that is a this is the one. The

second example is the standardization uh of economy and especially the increasing importance being attached to academic credentials.

Uh when I was a young, I mean the informal economy is still quite a vibrant. I mean you don't need any uh

vibrant. I mean you don't need any uh college degree. You don't need a high

college degree. You don't need a high school degrees to really go to the market and make a livelihood.

Make a living, But now it is uh almost impossible. Everyone have to follow that

impossible. Everyone have to follow that quite increasingly narrow and but a very very well charted, well organized path to progress. Which school you go, what

to progress. Which school you go, what kind of credential you must get in order to get what kind of job and etc. So, it is very individual pursuit of your life, but why

you feel you have to do that? Because

everyone is doing that. Again, it's a collective force.

And the result collective form of life.

Without a concrete So, you become you feel very lonely.

And then you have you you you you're doing the same thing with other people in a very lonely and in a way that you feel very vulnerable and being

constantly forced and oppressed.

And there's a third interesting change uh is the return of lots of revolutionary discourses, but in a radically different

context.

Uh I think after 19 probably 2015, we see more and more this kind discourses like uh you know uh uh uh

Yeah, I know I can't remember.

Basically there's lots of slogans related to revolution, related to military, basically to say we have to discipline ourselves, we have to work hard.

And uh and have this a bigger picture bigger vision etc. And who are promoting this language? Of course, government uh uh

language? Of course, government uh uh uh for understandable reason are promoting this language.

But the most effective promoter of this language was the high-tech companies.

And the some of you must know the Alibaba Golden Coat.

Ali jingju Yesterday's the best performance is the starting point of today.

Life is a struggle.

And you will be reborn after the hardest struggle. There's a seven seven lines

struggle. There's a seven seven lines and the new employees of Alibaba are supposed to memorize them because they will be tested.

And there is I mean the Alibaba openly discuss that how they adopting Red Army strategy during the long a long

march to organize their company and such. I mean then how to understand this

such. I mean then how to understand this very collectivist language and discourse now being used by

you can say the most capitalist sector today right?

I mean that's is we can go deeper to under is not a simply exportation but is also kind of subjugation and really create new

new sense of self because they do pay you very well. If you really follow all this golden line and they take yesterday's best performance as today's the worst and they do give you lots of money and

such. It's It's an individual

such. It's It's an individual material will be gained by applying this collectivist

ideology abstract collectivist ideology on your yourself.

But what do we now witnessed that as I said beginning you know you know like as if we are caught up in a dilemma. You cannot

really lie flat but you can't really continue being so ambitious and working so hard.

Part of the reason I say I mean not the reason I think that is really proof Uh, is not a sustainable situation if there's a no concrete collective form of

life.

And it's not a sustainable where only pursue our individual interest and this make it even less so and a probably very damaging if we legitimate and it

justifies this individualistic pursuit through this collectivist uh, discourse and ideology.

And that is the the the I I see that as the biggest problem. And

then the three things are related. The

loss of collect loss of concrete collective form actually is the common reason for both of the isolated

individualism and the rise of abstract collectivism as a external force that uh, oppress uh, us. So, therefore, I mean if you ask whether there's a

conclusion, I think it's a overall conclusion is that it is important to pursue the concrete collective form of life and what are they? I don't have any

uh, prescriptions of what they look like but uh, in the your nearby and the sense of solidarity is important. Have a

sense of solidarity with the whoever uh, whomever uh, they are and to become a more analytical about this

kind of abstract collectivism and become a more reflexive of all these individual uh, imperatives. Now, you feel it is all

imperatives. Now, you feel it is all individual coming from inside. And no,

no, they are not. It is all the social forces, the collective forces is a playing trick on you. It is a collective forces going through you and then you feel as if there is such thing urge to

be uh, uh, ambitious.

Um, so uh, this is I don't know whether it has challenged everyone enough, but I certainly await

your challenges. Yeah. Thank you very

your challenges. Yeah. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Professor Xiang, for such a thought-provoking lecture. Now, we will

thought-provoking lecture. Now, we will move on to the Q&A session.

It is my pleasure to invite Professor Fong to moderate the discussion.

We also warmly welcome the audience to engage with and ask questions with the speaker.

Professor Fong, please.

All right, nice.

Hello, very nice to see every one of you. And thank you so much for um

you. And thank you so much for um Professor Xiang to share with us some of his very stimulating thought. I'm sure

that many of us will have question. Now,

we have about 25 minutes um for us to ask question. If you have a question,

ask question. If you have a question, please raise your hand. Oh, I already see a number of hands. And also, please introduce yourself you know, a little bit about um who you are, um what are

you studying now before you ask the question. Can we collect the three

question. Can we collect the three questions? Okay. So, we collect three

questions? Okay. So, we collect three and then um we pass the question to Professor Xiang.

Um maybe from there first. I see that gentleman over there.

Um hello. Thank you for time. I I'm

actually a graduate from uh I already graduated from the Hong Kong U. So, I

used to study economics here.

Uh so, my question is uh so, when I look at the word ambition, I think of um I think I think it points at some

somewhere far and it as opposed to the nearby as your concept. And also I think um, it implies a sense of initiative,

subjectivity, but itself does not like define a clear meaning of what is ambition. It is closely related to

ambition. It is closely related to social morals and also to the values uh, of the time. Um, so I think uh, you mentioned that there is a gap between

the collective um, abstract collectivism and also isolated individualism, but I think uh, what fills in the gap is the uh, institution.

And as you said uh, all these uh, uh, government propaganda and also these uh, slogans from tech companies, but my question is uh, do you think uh,

reconstructing the nearby is a universal solution to everybody? It could it be just a bourgeois fantasy or it's just a um, I don't know. If if it's just a middle

class thing, it's it does not apply to us all because it's such a a high demanding thing for everybody.

Thank you.

Thank you. So, may I ask um, when you ask a question, please be brief, okay?

All right, there's a question.

Hi, my name is Rufei. I just graduated from anthropology um, from for undergrad back in the US and I'm studying cultural studies and I know you just said the story I mean the question to be brief, but my question is

not brief. I'm sorry.

not brief. I'm sorry.

Um, so there has been a trend of like organizations institutions companies that organize like trips and summer camps that focus on anthropology and

field work um, that also charge a large amount of money for you to go to like Yunnan or like some far off villages in China and they claim to do like field work as a method or largely like very

much commodifying anthropology and it's like methodologies.

But also on the other hand for me, someone who graduated with only like 14 other students in anthropology for my class, I feel also happy that anthropology has gone to be known by

more people in China and also just around the world.

But then now with like schools and like degrees getting more expensive even at HKU, you know, the master's is getting to like 30k and more for a year. And for

undergrad degrees in the US to get to a thousand k dollars, which is like 700k RMBs for a year.

I do feel there's also this deep divide between what the previous question was about like bourgeois class and also about um

and academia and the elites and where you were hinting at about you know, this desire to always go upwards, upward mobility.

So then all that to ask what do you think this means for the future of anthropology and its position in academia and our society. Is it

something that's worth celebrating that it's gone to known be known by more people and it's but is it should we be cautious that it's also being largely commodified by these

institutions and organizations? Thank

you.

Okay, thank you. I have to add one more condition. Beside brief, only ask one

condition. Beside brief, only ask one question.

Okay so maybe go.

Uh Hi, I'm the I'm from the master program and this is my second master program. I used to have my first master program

in the US also studying anthropology. I

just have one question is that uh how to balance the identity as a researcher or uh when you do the when doing the fieldwork, but actually you are already part of

that field like um I used to study a topic of urban village, but I'm already a villager

there, but at the same at the same time I'm doing the fieldwork there, I'm also a researcher. It's really hard to

a researcher. It's really hard to balance these two identities. I'm just

wondering how to do that.

Thank you.

Thank you, Beth.

Thank you very much. And I'll probably blend these three questions together.

Uh two points of responses, you know, whether nearby is really confined to a small group of elites and whether companies are commodifying and supporting it for their own profit.

Uh they're both the true can be true empirically, but the question is that how shall we understand that? Because if

we put up some good ideas, everyone with their own resources and the class positions and intentions may want to make use of that.

So, how should we respond to that? And

the one response is a Puritan position to say, "Oh, no, my idea is meant to serve as a people, the masses. And if

you are not part of the masses, if you use it, you are going to pollute the idea. So, I'm going to against you."

idea. So, I'm going to against you."

And again, a second view is again this is the probably go back to my little communist route is a united front strategy. Is to say, "I mean that is a

strategy. Is to say, "I mean that is a thing should be experimented in all kinds of life contexts. If someone wanted to use

life contexts. If someone wanted to use this idea, even though for their their own intention, which I don't identify, but as long as legal and it's

basically ethical, I I would say that is opportunity for us to observe uh how these kind of ideas or thought

are used by certain group of people and maybe there are some lessons that we can learn.

And therefore to further develop the thought and to apply that to larger basis of a population. So

most of it's true the most probably visible way of doing the nearby project are educated middle class youth who have the you know who can afford to lie flat for a while, but you can say you can say

many people cannot afford, but nevertheless um that kind of spirit and also their practical exploration

uh the method being developed by this group of people, I think it is still something useful and this is a responsibility of intellectuals.

And we are not kind of person stand outside of practice and the prac- I mean where is a pure some

in in pure share and and then comment on them. You are not doing the right thing.

them. You are not doing the right thing.

You are doing the right thing. Because

the thing just happen all the time. The

question is that how we can absorb all the useful things from different elements then to put it in a different format, develop a thought that for better

use. For example, and the companies are

use. For example, and the companies are using as a product. The first question is that why do they do so? And they

suddenly show us there's a demand for this type of knowledge. And number two is that how these companies sell this type of knowledge? How do they package it? What is attractive? Why do they make

it? What is attractive? Why do they make it attractive? And why can't we do that

it attractive? And why can't we do that free to people, right? So that is the the the the we we have to play that kind of of game. So that is then

related to the third question about identity uh uh confusion, you know, the very different line. It's very difficult to draw a line

line. It's very difficult to draw a line between inside and outside. For me, that is a point.

And in today's condition, we need this type of research, which is a try to grasp the complex internal contradictions and the constantly

evolving dynamics.

That is a key. But whether or not I am taking a very objective position, distant I mean looking from distance, therefore I have the unique access to ultimate truth, which you don't have.

And now I'm getting getting I'm I'm telling you with my scholarly authority.

I mean that is for me is just a fantasy.

Fantasy I mean therefore So for me, I'm I'm very happy that my identity is all messed up. And I

think that is actually a very important source of my energy that will sustain my intellectual work.

Okay, so we take three more questions.

Maybe someone from there.

Thank you very much. My question's going to be very short. Um

there's a temporal element, temporal dimension to ambition.

And you didn't really Well, you went temporarily historically through your first stages, but I wonder if there's also a change of relationship of people in relation to time.

That's my question.

What does really a lot question. The one in the middle, yeah.

question. The one in the middle, yeah.

I was Thank you, Professor I'm I I I think you're very famous for introducing Chinese perspective in analyzing

global phenomenon. and and I really wonder your

phenomenon. and and I really wonder your your opinions on the phenomenon you talked about in this seminar in a Western context. So I've linked this

Western context. So I've linked this this stuff to to the movies I've watched for example Fight Club or Trainspotting. So the

Western society seems to have talked about this problem like 10 years 20 years ago. So

how do you view the differences we we are experiencing in Chinese and Western society? So can we learn something from

society? So can we learn something from the Western progression and process of experiencing the same problem and phenomenon? Thank you.

phenomenon? Thank you.

Should we take four questions with so many hands?

The one at the in the front.

You want the short question become shorter but number of questions become larger.

Hi Professor Sham and the Fung. I used

to be a student in sociology CHK and after that I worked for tech company in China for six years and I am back in

academia as a PhD. So your book was very useful to overcome the work meaningless during my work. And my question today is

I wonder what is the government's role in the third phase because you mentioned the the third three phases. The first is the in the 1950s

and the second is the revolution and the both the government works very strongly in shaping how people work and how people live. I wonder in the third phase

people live. I wonder in the third phase what is the government's role?

The one there. Yeah.

Yeah. Um thank you Professor Sham and thank you very much for this chance. Um

I'm undergrad here to learning finance.

Actually I transferred from arts to finance and currently I'm contemplating about my uh what a good life should be for myself. You talk about uh for the um

for myself. You talk about uh for the um past phases, uh the government, the elite, and the company has been promoting the language people are using

as a collective. And

but in this stage, like AI is stepping in and tech tech companies are leveraging those um those technologies for people uh who are trying to reflect and thinking

what a good and concrete collective should be the our power is like I really wonder whether our power should work and

what kind of power is going to drive the next phase of how the collective should be.

And also, um it is very hard for today's people to agree on a point, although we may see um on some news people may have uh homogeneous opinions, but that's

rather emotional, rather but not rational way. So, how should we Who should we rely on in creating such a concrete collective and how should we do

it?

Thank you. So, the last question I was I try to address in a reverse order. Um

how should we do it? I don't have a any ready answer. And then your question where what what will be the driving force and where the power come from?

Um It is that I do have answer. The power

come from you.

And the me.

And the coming from our practices. So,

this is a mythology There is a mythology of modern social science.

We all the think there is such thing as a driving force, very abstract the driving force and the push everyone forward. And we do feel that way. As I

forward. And we do feel that way. As I

said, you know, go to take exam in this hall, you feel the air is very heavy and the breath of next next person next to you

just sounds also sometimes scary and all disturbing. And they but it's a natural

disturbing. And they but it's a natural human breathing, but it just sounds so uh uh uh also very uh like as if it has certain force will

disturb you, right? And that the kind of of of driving force and the collective force are are themselves a result of our

practice, hm? If we change our practice

practice, hm? If we change our practice and we orient our practice differently and then the collective outcomes will be different. The so-called driving force

different. The so-called driving force will be also different.

So, you have power and I have power does not mean you or I can change the course of history or change of uh um some big event immediately, but we have

power when we reorient ourselves and then the collective force out there, first of

all, will probably not work on us, right? And if someone is passing the

right? And if someone is passing the exam, if someone wants to sell vegetable and they just feel a bunch of kids sitting there doing something quite stupid. And they they will not uh

stupid. And they they will not uh extend the force to that person.

And then, more positively, actually, we can also work on something else to create a different situation, uh which will influence other people,

too. I mean, that is, I think, what the

too. I mean, that is, I think, what the social science is trying to do.

Why do we need to think?

Right? If we just the follow uh the history, we don't need to think. As we

just need a very good uh detective device, you know, to like a like a uh just to hear what the wind is a coming, I just follow the wind as if we are bird or fish, right? But the we as a

human we want to sing. We want to sing a consciously. Is a precisely is to say

consciously. Is a precisely is to say actually how much is the wind will influence me. Is it to a large extent

influence me. Is it to a large extent also depend on how I face it. Do I face my my body this way? Do I face my body in that way? And there's a wind that may still

way? And there's a wind that may still be there, but if you have faced differently, the wind will mean different things to me.

And so you do need we do need to read the wind very carefully, but also we must think the wind the the effect of wind does not come from the wind itself. It

is a coming from the relation between me and the wind. How I position myself in relation to the wind is very important.

And this the point I can access the power to start waves. And then if we do collectively in a small group and then we will think the world be changing.

And uh uh the the second question I guess is about the role of a government in the current

stage. I think it's extremely important

stage. I think it's extremely important because as I said, uh the real estate industry of course is cannot be

separated from the not only government policy uh about the real estate industry, but the related to how uh the Chinese local government

is financed. The fiscal income, you

is financed. The fiscal income, you know, the land uh revenue policy and the division of fiscal income between different

levels and uh and then the standardization, the importance of academic credentials is related to what I call the formalization of economy because informal economy

become more and more difficult to operate. And then the capital intensive

operate. And then the capital intensive and technology intensive economy uh take a larger and a larger share, which means everyone has to act uh to have to

act in a quite in everyone have to get a degree, you know, have to follow the same uh path. And uh then, of course, uh the discourse uh uh

is very much uh related to government, too. You know, here is not a man I mean,

too. You know, here is not a man I mean, this is not a criticism of any but it's because you can say the formalization of economy is a good thing. Is a progress.

Is a make you know, the whole the economy in general more productive.

But there's a business of researcher is also to understand what does this mean for human experiences, right? Is it not to So, again, here we

right? Is it not to So, again, here we are not uh standing here just to see, "Oh, this is a bad. So, this should be canceled or stopped." You can't.

Actually, it is not all bad or good. The

question is that this is maybe a good thing, but it's a created a new contradiction.

And the new contradiction is quite the consequential. And how are we going to

consequential. And how are we going to do it? How are we going to face it?

do it? How are we going to face it?

That's is the uh uh the question. And uh

whether the Western or other societies have gone through this already, therefore we learn experience from them, I think uh certainly uh uh this is

something we we should pay attention to uh just as we pay attention to many other societies like so-called the primitive societies. How do they handle

primitive societies. How do they handle the question of ambition? How do they regulate competition, right? I mean,

the the classical example of anthropology potlatch. Potlatch is a very much about

potlatch. Potlatch is a very much about the story of ambition. Is to say the chief of a tribe at a certain season should damage

all their wealths and or hand out their wealths and then to compete who damage more of their wealths.

And then you gain status. You gain

prestige from your members.

And that is a you can say actually they're using the people's ambition for status in order to keep basic uh

egalitarian relations among all the tribe members, right? So we also something learn from that. So it is the but the the reason I this is number one you know we don't look at oh you know

some society is ahead of us so therefore we look uh examples from them and uh follow them.

But also there's another thing is that we also have to recognize the specificity of the Chinese society. For

instance, the revolutionary uh experiences and the revolutionary legacy are very important. China wouldn't not have developed so fast over last 40

years had a China not gone through the revolutionary experience. They had not

revolutionary experience. They had not the Chinese population somehow shared that type of ambition. And then they also the peasants want to migrate and no matter how hard and etc., right? You

sometimes single-mindedly want to wanted to make more money for the children and etc. And then that type of social energy has its own specific uh history and also

very specific meaning and emotion for people who lived through that experience. So it they would be very

experience. So it they would be very dangerous if we just uh think oh it's all just uh this is the one manifestation of uh some universal human pattern so we can learn from other

society mechanically. No, we have to

society mechanically. No, we have to look at the history in a very specific way in order for our thought to be meaningful for people in a very specific

context. And then the time question. And

context. And then the time question. And

it's a true as I said you know it's a when you are in high school students and the early first or second year college students they are most ambitious is in terms they

expressing their life goals and then when time passed by then getting older and of course the way how you experience ambition will be different and at a certain stage probably you

become not ambitious which is quite common life experience.

Then the the but the the key question for me is a not ambition as a universal human experience or

psychological trait and how that you know manifest itself in different population. That will be a very

population. That will be a very classical empirical research. But what I what I am worried about is this very

specific dilemma.

Young people 20 to 45 years old in China feel have a dilemma. Should I be ambitious or not?

And I wanted to lead a meaningful life, responsible for myself and then for others and I wanted to get this thing better therefore ambition but yet I feel

it make my life so tiring, exhausting and I don't want it. So this is dilemma how to address it. That's the real question and this feeling of course is a

result is a result of historical change and the political economy. I wanted to get that right. So therefore it is not a a theory of ambition. It is more a

theory of change. I need a social change I would say. So so the micro life course maybe I should add that to enrich the empirical

or to nuance the empirical description of the situation but that itself is not my concern.

Because of the time we take the last round of questions. I still see a lot maybe the one in the middle.

Okay, thank you, Professor Shawn. And um

my question is going to be about generations. Um probably I'm not being

generations. Um probably I'm not being with the same generations with you guys cuz like I'm I'm still in high school.

So yeah.

Yeah, I just turned 18 a few few months ago. So, like um as you mentioned like

ago. So, like um as you mentioned like um one of the reasons like the the factors that shapes our ambitions is the society. So, like the most important

society. So, like the most important factors that guide us to shaping ambitions is probably like our older generations. For example, like our

generations. For example, like our teachers, our parents, and yeah, a lot of other peoples. But, I do not think

that they actually understand our like um they they do not understand us because like we do we have a generation gap. They're using their mindset to

gap. They're using their mindset to guiding us to um to have a specific kind of ambitions.

For example, like go to a good universities or any other things. So, my

question and also one of the most important thing is that I think they're lack of empathy when they're guiding us.

So, like my question is going to be about how do you think the intentions of empathy between like the generations and also the cultures as you mentioned like um

migrations and highlights still exists or like still able can help us in terms of like seeking our own ambitions and our life values. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

And you.

Yeah, I've been waiting for The one in the front.

Thank you very much. Uh

I actually I I grew up by Ouyang as well. I come from uh Zhejiang Qingtian.

well. I come from uh Zhejiang Qingtian.

Yeah, so your book about Zhejiang Cun really echoes my personal experience. Uh

currently I'm doing my PhD in management and I I may have a more like a comment instead of question to your what you talk about today. So, you talk about the

two types of ambition. One is ambition with and the other is ambition against.

And I feel like it's it's I feel like maybe doing academia like a a good um contest to study these two logics, I would say. Because I I felt um very

would say. Because I I felt um very complete conflicted when I when I was in my PhD program. I feel like these two types of ambition coexist in the

program. So, it's mainly about the

program. So, it's mainly about the relationship between the between me and the community. So, when it comes to

the community. So, when it comes to ambition with, I feel like on the other side we are encouraged to uh work with others. Like we we need to um build this

others. Like we we need to um build this science scientific world um together.

And the other is that um we need to come uh the the ambition against others. Like

we need to hide our ideas so that we won't be stolen uh or something like this. So, I feel like this kind of

this. So, I feel like this kind of coexisting of these two conflicting ideas really makes me feel a bit um a 45° as you mentioned. Because I felt

every this two logics lo- logics are uh are contingent contingent on I would say three different uh factors.

One is about the when uh uh one is about the context whether it is be brief? Okay, sorry. So, one is about

be brief? Okay, sorry. So, one is about whether it is rewards based or punishment based. So, when it comes to

punishment based. So, when it comes to rewards, then I feel like being influential or ambition with a whole community is really appreciated. But

when it comes to punishment like the tenure system etc., Then you Then it becomes okay, how many ideas you have, how many publications you have. And the

other two factors I would say is one is like the obvious logic which is more openly advocated. And the

other is more like a hidden agenda by individuals. And the third element is

individuals. And the third element is more like the elite versus like grassroot uh system. So, for for elite, I feel like it's much more easier for them to um

to really uh to to to have this kind of like uh have the say, have the voice to determine whether it is what or like ambitions with is a good system

um in the academia. So, yeah, I feel like it's more like Excuse me, because we we we already overrun the time. Can you Can you end it there?

that's that's what I want to say. And

I'm I'm curious about your thoughts as well. Thank you.

well. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. And then we take a question over there.

Yeah that.

Yeah, I'm a German student from Faculty of Social Sciences. And my question is similar, but I'm really focused on the concept of uh ambitions with and ambitions against. In my personal

ambitions against. In my personal experience, I think uh maybe is it a effective division? Because sometimes I

effective division? Because sometimes I think they're very uh mixed and uh the typical example is in the uh in the middle school in the class the

class you have to compete with each other and you have to uh you have to collaborate with your classmates. And

so, I think is it a possible to dig deeper into the two division? And I

another question is that in the background of late capitalism, uh do you think is it possible to find a reasonable solution of your concept

ambition and fatigue? Do you think is it possible to find a solution to uh to release our fatigue or uh

find a way to call to cope with the ambition. Yeah, thank you. That's my

ambition. Yeah, thank you. That's my

question.

Last question, the one at the back.

Thank you very much uh Professor Xiang for the fascinating um work. Uh

in the part of uh I'm PhD in political science and uh so I have the question so about um so in parts you just mentioned um how ambition uh is a like a creation

or induction uh and indoctrination by the states rather than um like a natural thing. Uh

and the question is uh and you also uh I noticed you use cultural sensitivity of ambition. Uh the question is how do you

ambition. Uh the question is how do you distinguish cultural sensitivity or how do you justify while this is a cultural sensitivity of ambition rather than a

cultural sensitivity of expression of ambition? Thank you.

ambition? Thank you.

Yeah, the last question I have to uh uh I if I understand you correctly, and I

would respond by saying that uh the ambition and the expression of ambition

they are different and uh of course they're closely related because when ambition become a social

fact it is the requires uh expression, requires its symbolic representation in communication in order

for your personal desire of improvement become socially recognizable and but this is the same thing for

any social phenomenon. Uh

so yeah, and then how do we distinguish the two?

I think we can. I guess your question is probably asking whether uh the ambition itself probably is not

so problematic, but it sometimes is expression of ambition is uh problematic because I mentioned in

the all these discourses now promoted by uh like big companies, right? As a very particular way of expressing expression.

If it's just a question of discourse and expression, uh why do we take them so seriously? Because people may deep down

seriously? Because people may deep down believe in something else.

Um In that regard, I would say I we we should distinguish the two. But there's

a reason we needed to distinguish the two meaning is real the representation and the uh ambition as individually felt

feeling uh is precisely to say how the two are related through certain mechanisms. And this also explains why young people feel the question of

ambition is particularly taxing or sometimes painful because they are more likely affected by hegemonic expression

of certain feelings. That means that if you hear that all the time and it's coming from companies like Alibaba or Tencent, and young people naturally feel that it is the right thing because

it is a so I mean, there's a lot of psychology and philosophy can be talked about and people understand the things through association. And Alibaba means

through association. And Alibaba means this, and if the company meaning this progressive and success saying things like that, then the things being said itself carries certain weight. I have to

take seriously, etc. So, uh and then the uh so this course are uh itself extremely important

precisely because this course is a linkage between the individual experiences and what appear to be the collective force and social force. I I'm

not sure whether or not that really respond to the question, but but it is a good point. Probably I

should clarify it uh earlier. Yeah. So who was the

uh earlier. Yeah. So who was the question before that? Was

I can't remember. Oh yes. Now

uh you That is a good question. It's

about the the you know, you have say, "Okay, you I have a competition within my immediate friend, but I have a competition against the next class in

the next group."

And that is precisely what I meant by concrete form of life.

Concrete form of life. Like a sports team, right? A sports team is at your

team, right? A sports team is at your competition you pursue a competition competition ambition. You pursue your

competition ambition. You pursue your ambition alongside the together with your teammates, but in a way is against

another team. And in this situation, I

another team. And in this situation, I think for me is a is is a natural situation. This situation is

situation. This situation is unproblematic. And and it's precisely

unproblematic. And and it's precisely through this situation we have a very concrete collective. The concrete

concrete collective. The concrete collective is your sports team. And here

we needed to think of the question of scale. Because society is organized

scale. Because society is organized through scale. And then you say, "Oh,

through scale. And then you say, "Oh, then I can I can I I pursue my ambition with my teammate, but in the end of the day I still pursue my ambition against someone else.

Isn't a problem?" Here we need empirical analysis because when you have this kind of collective, I mean, even in social research time, we also have a lot of inside. It's a kind

of a competition, but it's a completely of a nature of the competition. So they

love don't you say that sometimes artificially okay, we divide this class to three teams. Let's do you know harvest of the of the wheat to see who will achieve the fastest. Now it's kind

of three team against each other. But

the end end everyone laugh, everyone celebrate, everyone were happy. Mhm?

Because that one you you you because in your team everyone is pursuing ambitious with somebody and in other team also they are doing the same

thing. Now everyone is energized and

thing. Now everyone is energized and everyone recognize that the kind of grouping actually is a part of game.

Is is so it is not a So I think it's the it's a very important that you bring in the question uh help me to bring in the question of

scale in order to further articulate what I mean by concrete form of collective life and also further emphasize what is a key

problem for me is against and the with model still works. But then when we compare we have to compare the same level. You cannot just say a with

level. You cannot just say a with another individual but against another team. See, we cannot compare with that.

team. See, we cannot compare with that.

Now we compare with other individual and against other individual. With the self and against the self.

So that is the the the key question and then I just skip your second question. I move on to who was the one

a comment about the the the academic world.

Um no, I agree agree and then the question is uh you know, what is a problematic? I mean

of course this is ideal type, right?

With and against ideal type and in real world probably is a two hour will be the mixed. And there's a problematic here is

mixed. And there's a problematic here is that as I said as the people feel being troubled by uh the dilemma between

lying flat and being ambitious. Um and

what is the political economy of this uh anxiety and agony? But the rather to say a bit and as they say the typology, this classification of with and against

uh analytical tools, they are not a reality.

These are tools, uh analytical tools that is invented by the by the by by scholar by by by researcher of the mind in order to

probe the problematic. The problematic

itself is that the the dilemma about ambition. If we feel there's no dilemma

ambition. If we feel there's no dilemma of ambition and there's no point of talking about ambition with or against in my view because this tool is meant to

serve understanding the problematic.

And otherwise anything can be divided in this way or that way. If there's no clear purpose, I think there's we don't need to waste the energy of doing uh uh uh that.

And finally, I'm so glad to see a new generation to be here and ask this very important

question.

And the cross-generational gap is a very big concern uh in general as well as in particular in relation to the question of ambition. And the

parents often say, "Oh my god, your young kids uh will lose all your ambition, lose all your energy being lazy or lying flat."

Parents get very worried and they say, "You should you know, you should learn how to eat bitterness and we have done all that and etc." And uh how to understand the

intergenerational relation is a complex question. But here I just mention one

question. But here I just mention one point which is immediately related to my argument is that why do the parents care feel difficult to understand their children's

uh feels that they are burning out. Uh they

want to take a rest.

And then why parents take their experiences of going through hardship as a something natural?

There's a good reason behind that, which is at least in the Chinese context the parents indeed work very hard did uh suffer did eat a lot of

bitterness.

But they did not experience it as a sacrifice as eating bitterness. Because

what they experienced was ambition ways.

But now they look back to say you see you see this is the kind of clothes they wear, you know, when I was your age.

And then my father told some me something I was a I mean I told my wife and it was a quite a the touch. He had a new pair of shoes. Was very happy going

to school.

And whenever there is a snow on the road some part of road that was a dry already some part is a snow. Whenever there was a snow he would took off the shoes.

And he would wear the shoes only when the road is a clean. Because it is a much more important for him to protect the shoes than protect his feet.

And that is for him. But now you stand up oh my god I mean how this is all suffering. But he did not feel that way

suffering. But he did not feel that way because there was sense of hope he was looking school and there was a you know, unthinkable opportunity for him and a very poor peasants

son and etc, right? And you have all other things. Uh so

other things. Uh so and then they will look at the look at the your material what do you eat and what do you you wear and what kind of thing you do? I mean you are really uh have a such a

better life than us and why do you still complain and such. But, they did not understand

and such. But, they did not understand what they you are going through is a pursuing ambition against including against yourself.

And which is a by definition unsustainable. And this is a why many

unsustainable. And this is a why many people I mean, if you fail, of course, it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a disaster. Even young people succeeded,

disaster. Even young people succeeded, what are they are pursuing?

They often feel disillusioned, feel quite empty after they achieved.

Because they don't have you the growth, internal growth. They don't enjoy the

internal growth. They don't enjoy the the process.

They use ambition to compel themselves step by step, almost force themselves to reach certain point. And once they reach, they collapse.

And the parents could not understand of that because they had quite a concrete collective form of life which is the gave them energy. But, the we probably don't. And this is why it's important

don't. And this is why it's important for us to recreate our own concrete collective form of life. Thank you.

Oh.

Thank you very much. Thank you all your questions. Sorry I have to cut short

questions. Sorry I have to cut short your questions and comments as well as not everyone have the chance to ask the questions.

But then at the same time, thank you Professor Xiang to answer all the questions. Hope you can come back later

questions. Hope you can come back later and answer more questions.

Thank you, everyone.