Andrew Huberman On Biotech Free Zones

Hey Andrew, welcome to the Network State podcast. what I uh you know love about

podcast. what I uh you know love about your show I mean you and I actually have fairly similar backgrounds in some ways where we're both uh you know Stan at

least I was at Stanford for almost 10 years right from 97 to 2007 actually more than 10 years as first undergrad

then PhD then uh you know basically post-docal faculty then I taught CS and stats and genomics at Stanford and then I left and founded genomics and sold that gone to And then you were a faculty member and

you also in a sense in a different way you became a creator, right? And you're

still a faculty member there. Am I wrong or not?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Still tenure. I got a meeting with my dean in about a week and a half for lunch. It's a friendly conversation. Not not

conversation. Not not >> Okay, great.

>> Not an exit conversation. Yeah, I taught up until very recently. I ran a fairly big lab and then taper that off during the pandemic. My last postoc is now a

the pandemic. My last postoc is now a faculty member. So I I you know moved

faculty member. So I I you know moved all my students and postocs on to their next steps. But yeah, I'm still a um

next steps. But yeah, I'm still a um tenure member of neurobiology and opthalmology. I have a split

opthalmology. I have a split appointment. Um and I was born at

appointment. Um and I was born at Stanford Hospital. I did my personal

Stanford Hospital. I did my personal training at Stanford. Yeah. I worked in the in the uh sleep lab for a summer during university. And so, you know, I

during university. And so, you know, I it's and Stanford's my backyard. I grew

up in South Palo Alto. So,

>> Oh, okay. Well, I I think you know it's funny because uh we're both um you know that soil is a very it's a very interesting thing

because it's a bridge between in my view the old world and the new because in different ways we sort of made our careers on the internet from there and obviously it's a weird thing because on the one hand obviously Stanford is known

for having a lot of people who get into tech or in your case get into becoming creators out of there on the other And the university isn't really as friendly

towards that as people might think from the outside like in the sense of uh when when I was doing it um in the 2000s it was not uh and now it's changed so much

entrepreneurship become more common in the 2010s and so on but it was like VC was sort of over the hedge it was not something that was like on campus in that way and moreover you know those

posters that say like bench to bedside that they would have translational medicine. You know, when you actually

medicine. You know, when you actually did go when I did go and start a genomics company, suddenly you went from being an infant that everybody kind of liked to then, oh, you're doing

something for profit. That's bad. And

then they didn't want to talk to you until you became really, really big because it'd be a conflict of interest in academia to talk to a for-profit company. There's like a weird thing

company. There's like a weird thing there where there's like an air gap between, you know, Stanford and then the actual tech stuff or creative stuff that comes out. I don't know if you

comes out. I don't know if you experienced that at all or you saw that.

Well, my experience has been quite different and I'm not saying this to be dramatic. Um,

dramatic. Um, >> so I agree that um once one makes it big, the the tone always shifts.

>> Sure.

>> So I mean this is kind of true across the board. Um I heard a joke some time

the board. Um I heard a joke some time ago that I think is quite apt about Stanford which is there are only two kinds of Stanford faculty. Stanford

faculty with companies and Stanford faculty with successful companies.

That's funny.

>> Nowadays, like we've had the um you know, former chair of genetics, Mike Snyder on our podcast. Mike,

>> he's great. He's very pragmatic. Yeah.

>> Yeah. He's got I think 11 or more companies. Um you know, I think the

companies. Um you know, I think the backbone of Stanford is largely within the engineering school. I mean, of course, they have humanities and everything else. So, the engineering of

everything else. So, the engineering of devices at Stanford is such a major theme, right? Um and someone who's

theme, right? Um and someone who's trained both at Stanford and at Harvard Medical School explained to me that you know that the lineage was such that Harvard tended to be more grounded in

development of uh pharmaceuticals and Stanford really engineering the gamma knife and and on and on. So I I always experienced Stanford as a place where

academia and and industry were somewhat merged. But I came into it a bit later

merged. But I came into it a bit later right? I started my posttock in 2005. At

right? I started my posttock in 2005. At

that time people were founding companies based out of discoveries in biosciences.

My downstairs neighbor was then and is still now Roger Kornberg whose um father Arthur won a Nobel Prize for RNA and then Arthur excuse me Robert got the structure of RNA and he has a company

actually he's on the or was on the advisory board I think he is still of true niogen so the whole NRMN NAD thing you know there is Roger Nobel Prize winner at Stanford you know holding a

bottle of NR like I take NR you know and I thought to myself that was somewhere around 2016 and I thought things are changing Right.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. So, I think things have changed somewhat in I mean I could talk about my own experience with the podcast. I think

people didn't really expect that from me and I just I did it during the pandemic.

I started going on podcast and launched the podcast in 2021 and I think people sort of stood back and were like okay what's going to happen here? Initially,

I got a lot of great saw you on Rogan.

Awesome. And then from faculty and then as Rogan became a bit more controversial in light of the uh vaccine mandates, it was a little bit more like oh but then colleagues like Anna LMKI who focuses on

addiction and dopamine went on Rogan.

Seapolski's been on there. And so

>> podcast became really one of the major thrusts within the media landscape if not the major thrust in the media landscape. And then everyone

landscape. And then everyone [clears throat] seems to just kind of relax around things. Um so I think it's more friendly now. I think you know there are these stains right there's the therronos stain. There's some other

therronos stain. There's some other stains we could talk about but then there are all these successes.

>> Yeah.

>> Of you know like um Lubbert Strier who recently passed away was in my department founded Aphamatrix right the one a gene chip and then you know but he

had closed his lab. So I'll tell you you know to be quite direct about this I mean money is a big part of it right? I

mean, if Stanford has a partial investment role or or equity role, if some of these people including myself, I do philanthropy directly through uh pay

for a our podcast is free but through a um a premium channel of our podcast. We

have donor [snorts] matches. We do

philanthropy. So, we support labs at Stanford and elsewhere.

>> And you know, as you know, I mean, you know, research takes money and if money's coming in, you know, the tone is different. But that came after the

different. But that came after the podcast has succeeded. So I would say for me the experience has been very positive.

>> Well, that's cool. I'm I'm glad it is.

Uh I think um I one thing that's interesting is I think you did this post tenure and so that meant that you didn't have to be scored against the you know

is this in a peer-reviewed publication and so clearly you're having a lot of impact on global health I think in a positive way by thank you >> telling people about these publications

and so on. Um, no. I think really I I you know, like there's a lot of people, you know, I I'm a I'm a big human defender. I mean, you have a lot of fans

defender. I mean, you have a lot of fans obviously, right? But popularizing the

obviously, right? But popularizing the work and getting it out there and turning into actionable things like look at the sun before looking at your phone, like all these little hacks and heruristics that distill like a big

complicated thing into memorable things is really really valuable. Um,

and so, uh, you know, there's a few things I want to talk to you about. You

actually got in touch with me a few years ago when I had been on the Lex podcast and I talked about the FDA. And

I think one thing that you you may remember about this is I think I was able to give the Steelman case for why the FDA exists and then critique it from the lens of

FDA 2.0.

>> Right. in the sense of you do want a regulated marketplace in the sense of bans of bad actors and star reviews like you know you don't want to have just like Amazon for example has star reviews

of books and it has bands of you know scammers or you know the app store has star reviews and it has bans of malware in the same way you want from a drug marketplace reviews and bans of bad

actors but the FDA doesn't need to be the only one doing those reviews it could be a competitive marketplace it could multiple jurisdictions for example the

EU and India and China and you know or within the US Texas and California and so on all competing with each other >> and then if you get a thumbs up from any of them you actually have competition between the reviewers in the same way

that you don't have like a single movie reviewer for everything right you don't have a single critic right >> so I'd love your thoughts on that because uh I mean maybe you can go piece

by piece through the US medical system and why are a lot of the human studies Why why aren't we all, you know, super I mean, we're starting to get there maybe with the Zmpic and so and so. Why aren't

we all super jacked and living forever?

I think a big part of it is the US medical system, insurance system, reimbursement system, regulatory system holding back the innovations that people are discovering, but I'd like to hear your thoughts and go from there.

>> Yeah, sure. Well, just to um close the hatch on an on something you mentioned, you said uh thanks for being a Hubberman Lab defender. Um sure I think you know

Lab defender. Um sure I think you know there are various critiques as is always the case when you're public facing but um you know I would say that the response in the academic community and

in the medical community just based on emails and conversations is sort of divided into thirds. I think about a third understand what I'm trying to do which is trying to give people actionable advice that can make them

healthier. um and they support that even

healthier. um and they support that even though they understand that there's going to be some dilution of the specifics or that I'm going to be pooling things and and you know make an effort to be clear about what the

sources of information are. The the

middle third are sort of silent sort of agnostic about it. Um and then the remaining third either are I would say probably divided such that they're

either critical because they don't like the specific information. They sort of feel like it's not cast the way they would cast it or in many cases I have to be honest >> they're not happy because someone else is talking about their work frankly.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> And my my point is always I'd love to invite you on the podcast. I had a cannabis episode. It was criticized. I

cannabis episode. It was criticized. I

invited the guy on. So just to to but it's a I think a good segue to the next piece which is um you know what do we consider actionable knowledge? And

that's really the one of the major important roles of the FDA of course and I think this is becoming most salient in the context of things like peptides and psychedelics right these are the kind of

the high salience issues right now here's my feeling the reason that we don't get more direct recommendations about behavioral changes to support

one's health is because there really just isn't an organized voice for that.

I mean, one of my hopes was that Maha was going to do that, but you know, if you really look at what they did, and you know, I'm trying to get in their ear about this. The they were like, "Oh, 100

about this. The they were like, "Oh, 100 push-ups, 100 pull-ups or something," which is kind of an unreasonable goal for mo in one workout, which is kind of an unreasonable or maybe it was >> 100 pull-ups is a lot.

>> That's a lot of pull-ups. I mean, it's an unreasonable kind of thing um for most people. And and yet, you know, the

most people. And and yet, you know, the New York Times health section will run things like, you know, five in apartment squat workouts you can do. None of that stuff works. No, none of that stuff

stuff works. No, none of that stuff changes behavior. I think for me, what

changes behavior. I think for me, what seems to be the case is that what changes people's behavior is when they can experience a positive shift the first time and every time, which is why

we push morning sunlight, why we've been encouraging resistance training, etc. I think the big chasm in healthcare and here we could lump kind of traditional

science and medical community and FDA and NIH, right? I have many friends in there and to some extent I still consider myself part of that community.

And then we think about the the podcast sphere, everything ranging from me to Brian Johnson to uh fitness channels and uh the running community is that the

general population feels like they don't know where to start. And during the pandemic and

start. And during the pandemic and because of the the debate about vaccine mandates etc and lockdowns and masks, what ended up happening was we have no

authoritative figure or panel. I am a big believer that we don't want individuals, we saw this during the pandemic, one guy telling people what to do, updating the information, now people hate them or they love them, whatever.

You know, >> there's Fouchy obviously, but what I always thought, you know, we need panels. We need panels of people that

panels. We need panels of people that are um that we know based on the data that people will change their behavior, listen to their doctor if their doctor looks like them, talks like them.

There's so much data on that. So, we

need we need some authoritative body.

And I think that Maha's interest in reducing food dyes and um then people doing push-ups and pull-ups. It's sort

of like a general step in the right direction, but it's pretty micro. And I

think it's I frankly I think it's it's offc center from where it needs to be.

>> Yeah.

>> So, what you know, so so that's a big a big part of it. I think also >> in the United States I my dad's Argentine. Okay. He um

Argentine. Okay. He um

>> Oh, interesting. Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. He's

>> So that's why you get Bitcoin. Yeah,

exactly. That's why I drink and that's why I drink mate in the morning. So,

okay, great. You know, um, since I was a kid. So, my dad's Argentine. He's a

kid. So, my dad's Argentine. He's a

scientist. He theoretical physicist. He

actually came on the podcast, you know, and from the time I was very little, he said, you know, um, the reason people are overweight is they eat too much. And

then, you know, like we debated this for a very long time. And um and in Europe and in Argentina and elsewhere, I think there's this idea that if you want to be

healthier, you walk more, you move more, you eat less. Done. End of story. Um you

want to sleep better, uh there are things you can do there, too. I think

that in the United States, two things are very true. First of all, this the United States has never been a country where healthy cuisine has been celebrated. Think about the American

celebrated. Think about the American cuisine. It's like hamburgers, hot dogs,

cuisine. It's like hamburgers, hot dogs, French fries, milkshakes, apple pie.

We've never really celebrated healthy eating. It was always abundant.

eating. It was always abundant.

Abundance and taste.

>> Mostly abundance. Calories. Calories per

dollar. S. You know the before the super size.

>> Candy bars.

>> Yeah. Like you think about Fourth of July where you you know, okay, now it's great to celebrate things, but you know, you spend a little bit of time in Europe and you realize people walk a lot more and the traditional food, including

sweets, but desserts are eaten as desserts. But the traditional food is

desserts. But the traditional food is a focus on quality, on the source, on the tradition. None of that exists in

the tradition. None of that exists in the United States. I mean, there's the hunting community that think about where they get their meat. And I think that's great. I'm a big supporter of that. But

great. I'm a big supporter of that. But

it's never been the case that Americans eat well, ever. And it's always been the case that Americans like drugs. They

like drugs. I mean, I've studied the weight loss phenomenon and um and you know, amphetamine was a big thing. Now

it's sort of coming back, believe it or not. Um, Osmpic, Ozmpic proved that

not. Um, Osmpic, Ozmpic proved that people are eating too much relative to their uh to their metabolic needs. So

like the simple statement is Americans like drugs and they don't like to do um physical don't like to eat nutritious food and they generally don't like to do

physical labor except and this is a key caveat is that Americans love to work hard. We're a hard, you know,

hard. We're a hard, you know, traditionally been a hardworking uh community of people, but within the context of getting a paycheck for our work as opposed to doing things to

better our bodies, right? We're unique

in that way. And I hear now that wellness is becoming really big in China.

>> You know, that notion of morning exercise and sunlight. I mean, they're picking up on a lot of protocols that I and others have have promoted. But being

really healthy has never really been the American thing. But we love celebrating

American thing. But we love celebrating sports stars. I mean, we love our

sports stars. I mean, we love our basketball stars, our football stars, baseball. It's not that we don't

baseball. It's not that we don't celebrate sport, we celebrate sport. And

we like to eat really unhealthy food while we watch other people exert themselves.

>> It's a culture of extremes, right? So,

extremely unhealthy or extremely hardworking and unhealthy from that, >> right, >> in some ways, right?

>> And I'm trying to change that. I'm I'm

trying to change that and I'm trying to demystify it. I'm trying to anchor in

demystify it. I'm trying to anchor in science where possible. I'm trying to give people tools that work very quickly so they can get, you know, hooked by taking good care of themselves and feel the benefits of that. I'm trying to make

most of what I promote uh behavioral tools for change. I do strongly believe in the role of nutrition which I put under behaviors but also honestly

supplements and peptides.

>> What are the human valuable?

>> What are the top what are the top five you know because off the top of your head what do you think are the most important things people should do?

behavioral tools >> just I don't know like the overall like of all your pods what are the top five things people should do.

>> Yeah. I think there's only one thing that if people knew they'd be 10 times healthier and that's to understand that you want your cortisol high within the first hours after waking. I don't care when you wake up but you want your

cortisol high in the first hours after waking and you want your cortisol low in the evening. This brings together all of

the evening. This brings together all of Brian's messaging, Matt Walker's messaging, my messaging. Here's the

deal. You wake up in the morning because of an inflection in cortisol that occurs during sleep. Eventually, it hits a

during sleep. Eventually, it hits a threshold. You wake up in the first two

threshold. You wake up in the first two hours, but especially the first hour after waking. There's a whole set of

after waking. There's a whole set of mechanisms that are engaged that allow you to boost that cortisol even higher.

We hear about cortisol as a stress hormone. It's not a stress hormone.

hormone. It's not a stress hormone.

Cortisol is designed to deploy energy to your brain and body so that you can respond to stressors and life, work, focus, etc. It sets in motion a cascade of all the things you want. Dopamine,

epinephrine, norepinephrine, the so-cal catakolamines. It sets a wavefront for

catakolamines. It sets a wavefront for the rest of the day. And but here's the really important thing. The higher that morning cortisol peak, the more energy and focus and your ability to learn things and do things you have during the

day and the lower your cortisol will be at night because the cortisol is on a what's called negative feedback loop where when its levels get too high, it starts self-regulating and bringing its levels back down. So get your cortisol

high in the morning. I'll list off some things. Viewing bright light will

things. Viewing bright light will amplify your morning cortisol, especially in the first hour after waking. Can be a 10,000 lux artificial

waking. Can be a 10,000 lux artificial light or can be sunlight. Cloudy days,

it works just fine. People would say, "There's no sunlight where I live."

Look, it's so much brighter at 8 a.m. on

a cloudy day, even in Scandinavia in winter, than it was at midnight the night before. So,

night before. So, >> photons are coming through. 10,000 lux

artificial light can help. bright light.

Exercise, even if you don't feel like it, will start to set a rhythm where your morning cortisol is in kind of anticipatory and is even higher, anticipating that exercise. Hydration,

believe it or not. Things like caffeine and cold exposure surprisingly don't increase cortisol. They just prolong

increase cortisol. They just prolong that peak a little bit. Okay. Um, the

other thing is if you really want to boost your morning cortisol and you don't have a medical condition that prevents this, believe it or not, licorice root, which contains something called glycerizin, is a very potent tool for increasing morning cortisol. In

fact, people that are kind of finding that caffeine doesn't do it for them anymore. You take you need to get

anymore. You take you need to get licorice root capsules that contain glycerin. Oftentimes, they'll remove it

glycerin. Oftentimes, they'll remove it because it can increase cortisol. And

you take that with your morning coffee and you'll notice you have t a lot more energy through the morning. It's it's a huge effect. So much so that it's

huge effect. So much so that it's contraindicated with a lot of uh prescription drugs that are stimulants.

So just keep that in mind.

>> On that topic of energy.

>> Yeah, >> I think about that more as I get older and quantifying that I think is

important. Um because you know for

important. Um because you know for example we can quantify weight, we can quantify height, you can quantify many other biochemical covariants like you

know as you know cortisol levels, testosterone levels, other kinds of things, right? But

things, right? But energy level is often you know lots of people have high that we know have high

intelligence but they have low or variable energy. famously Jeb Bush, low

variable energy. famously Jeb Bush, low energy, you know, Trump, you know, but but a lot of in tech in particular, one of the things that distinguishes

really high performers that I can see is just, you know, they can just put in they're tireless. It's not even I mean,

they're tireless. It's not even I mean, some of them are very smart, but the tirelessness and the consistency is a big part of it >> and just right. So, so maybe you have

some thoughts on that. Go ahead. I would

say look I am very hopeful that soon I'm not developing one there there'll be a real-time cortisol sensor just like we have real time glucose sensors. I can't,

you know, I don't want to make too much of it, but it's hard to be hyperbolic around this. Getting that morning

around this. Getting that morning cortisol peak as high as it can be and some days you can't get sunlight and some days you can't exercise and it's but do as many things as you can to boost your morning cortisol and then get

into your day. And then I should just say just to make for completion sake in the evening or when it comes time for your bedtime because I realize people wake up at different times, you want to

do everything to lower your cortisol.

Long exhale breathing to lower your heart rate. You want to reduce the

heart rate. You want to reduce the amount of bright screen light. So maybe

you wear blue blockers, maybe you don't.

Maybe you just dim the lights, maybe you don't. If you're going to exercise in

don't. If you're going to exercise in the evening, it's been shown exercise in the evening because your baseline cortisol is already pretty low, will triple or quadruple your baseline levels of cortisol. And and the consequence of

of cortisol. And and the consequence of that because of this negative feedback loop that I was referring to is that the next morning your morning cortisol levels are lower than they normally would be. And so people feel kind of

would be. And so people feel kind of groggy. So, it's fine to exercise later

groggy. So, it's fine to exercise later in the day, but you need to protect your evening cortisol. Make sure that it

evening cortisol. Make sure that it comes back down. This is a lot of what Brian and I and other people are talking about, but not talking about. We don't

talk about it in this frame. So, just

think about your waking and your first two hours of your day and your last two hours of the day. Set up everything. And

the simplest thing to say, you asked for three or a small batch. I'm saying get your morning cortisol high, get your evening and nighttime cortisol or pre-edtime cortisol low. And you look at Brian's post, he's like, you know, read instead of being online or do some

breathing. It all fits into this

breathing. It all fits into this framework. I'm saying that exercise.

framework. I'm saying that exercise.

Yeah. So, it simplifies a lot. And I

just want to point out for longevity sake, a so-called flattening of the cortisol curve, meaning in the afternoon cortisol levels are not dropping, but they're relatively stable or they're dropping too slowly is correlated with

poor longevity outcomes, poor cancer outcomes, poor people tend who tend to be anxious or have middle of the night waking and then they can't get back to sleep. it's because their cortisol is

sleep. it's because their cortisol is too high. The whole notion that if you

too high. The whole notion that if you sleep with lights on in the room, even relatively dim lights, morning glucose is elevated, makes perfect sense with through the lens of what cortisol does, which is to deploy glucose. So, I think

what we've seen in the last few years, look, I love technology. I'm from the South Bay, so I embrace technology. But

I think what people are doing is they're boosting their evening cortisol too much. That's setting up issues the next

much. That's setting up issues the next morning. And then it took us several

morning. And then it took us several years for this to cascade, right? And so

if people want to get back on track and you have to push everything into this framework of high morning cortisol, low pre-bed cortisol, you get that right? Like 80% of things fall into

right? Like 80% of things fall into place. Figure out when you can exercise,

place. Figure out when you can exercise, do the post exercise, you know, sauna, hot shower to bring things down, you know, all avoid obviously caffeine in the evening. of if you're going to take

the evening. of if you're going to take something like ashwagandha to like reduce your cortisol which is pretty potent reducing cortisol make sure you're doing that in the evening not in the morning all of this kind of stuff really adds up and you asked what you

know you said people who are really hard driving and do you I've seen some scientists like this I'm like this is incredible they work 15 hour days seven days a week how do they do it I think it's very important for everybody to

figure out what they can do consistently in terms of work hours over the next five years because it does change over time but I turned 50 in two weeks.

Honestly, I have more energy and I feel better than I did in my 30s >> and I felt awesome in my 30s and it's because I put the work in.

>> You know, I've just been doing it consistently. I mean, it's like it's

consistently. I mean, it's like it's like investing, you know? It's like it's just you just compound you compound gains, right? And so, and it's small at

gains, right? And so, and it's small at first and then over time you're like, "This is crazy. My friends who are 50 are kind of turning into melted candles or they're trying to recover themselves and I feel great." And it's not because

I'm gifted genetically or anything. you

just invest time and you invest energy in a number of things and it took me to the point of understanding cortisol that I was like oh pretty much everything centers around this you do some mindfulness meditation you could do it

in the morning sure but in the evening it would be very beneficial if you in the afternoon you say well what's going on there most of us are getting the bulk of our quality work done during about a 2 to four hour period and then there are

these phenoms like Elon I think is a good example seems to be able to just go go go I hope his body holds up. I mean,

that's really the the the issue.

>> He really is N of one. I I just think he violates every single rule that we have for founders in terms of like focus on one company at a time and so like he just shatters shatters all of those

rules. But yeah, uh

rules. But yeah, uh >> yeah, he's he's a tricky one to to kind of Yeah. I mean, some of my um I won't

of Yeah. I mean, some of my um I won't name names, but some of my friends who ended up making billions of dollars through, let's just say, online sales, uh uh platforms and things uh in the

2000s have asked me many times like, "What do you think allows Elon to do what what he does?" And I, you know, and I think I think some of it is that he's learned to funnel stress into output.

He's very, you know, as far as go and no go circuits, he seems to be able to take whatever adrenaline is in his system and turn it into very funneled go. I doubt

he does a ton of of um whatever ambivalence he may have, he he masks it very well.

>> I mean, some of it is software, some of it is hardware in the sense of his genetics and so on and so forth. But on

on I mean the reason is I know a lot of you and I both know a lot of billionaires a lot of found successful people would think we're reasonably successful ourselves and everybody feels Elon is just playing a completely different sport like he's just so far

out there like even you know Larry Page or Jensen Wang who are obviously very very very competent people have said something along those lines but anyway just coming back um >> okay so one of the things that we're

doing at network school is we're building startup societies and so you're familiar with like uh you know startup society network state as a concept should I you know >> yeah maybe just summarize it for me I

mean before we we started I saw a video that gives me a sense of kind of the the culture and landscape there but I but I'd like to understand more fully what you're doing >> sure so think of us as the third kind of

thing so there's internet companies you know there's internet currencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum and now there's internet communities so you know people might say hey what

kind of startup company do you want to found or more recently I'm doing a new coin.

We're having a third kind of thing which is I want to start a new community based on X. Right? So for example, if Andrew

on X. Right? So for example, if Andrew Hubman was to start a new community to take everything you're saying, right? Um

and you could engineer the environment.

Okay, as like a small example, you wake up and there's like a glowing footpath that points you towards the treadmill and weights and the cold water is right

there and the windows open at that right time, you know, with IoT curtains to have the sunlight come in. You know what I mean? if you could edit the

I mean? if you could edit the environment from the home to the uh you know like the neighborhood to the superructure you know for example a

walkable community um for example like what kinds of food is there and so forth what is the ideal human community because I actually think we can build it

>> awesome I mean I think you know I think a lot nowadays about how eight you know has really established itself as the leader Right? I think they're more or

leader Right? I think they're more or less peerless in the sense of being able to engineer the sleep environment. We

understand the different states of mind and body one wants to enter. You want to be cooler to fall asleep. You want your deep sleep. You want to get your rapid

deep sleep. You want to get your rapid eye movement sleep. It turns out, here's a fun one. If you can find a way to heat your uh sleep environment in the last two hours of sleep, you'll get a lot more REM sleep. So, this kind of pan rule like, oh, colder is better for

sleep. That's great for falling asleep

sleep. That's great for falling asleep and getting deep sleep in the middle of the night, but not so great at the for REM sleep. for REM sleep. You can get

REM sleep. for REM sleep. You can get another 30 minutes of REM sleep by making the last hours of your sleep warm environment. So, so for instance,

environment. So, so for instance, they've done that, right? And you get data and you can update it and now it's using AI to update your what you need and if you a woman has a menopause, you know, it's updating there too. And we

need to do the same thing for the waking environment, right? So little has been

environment, right? So little has been discussed about waking brain states. I

mean, a few years back it was all like alpha waves, beta waves, theta waves. We

never hear about that anymore. We talk

about focus, creativity. Um I mean we're going to look back in 10 years and go that's crazy. That's like saying like um

that's crazy. That's like saying like um jogging is all cardio or you know or bodybuilding is all resistance. I mean

you can train for strength, you can train for power, you can train I mean we need to subdivide the waking day and states of mind according to what people want >> when they when they want to be present

for their family when they when they want to be locked in to a given meeting.

And right now it's all done very haphazardly. People are like, "Oh, well,

haphazardly. People are like, "Oh, well, I drink caffeine, I hydrate, and you know, and I try and get some exercise."

And I mean, we've approached sleep the right way finally. And the technologies with sleep are getting even better because of during sleep eye trackers.

And we could go down this rabbit hole, but we won't. But here's a little teaser that maybe we talk about next year.

>> There's a lot of technology coming out that links the vestibular system and sleep such that there will soon be technologies that will allow you to force your body and brain into sleep.

you'll put on a device or your sleep environment will change and you will be asleep within minutes and you could and and and we need that for waking states.

This idea that we're just supposed to kind of stumble through our life trying to figure out how to be the optimal self. It's it's all it frankly it's

self. It's it's all it frankly it's where psychology and neuroscience initially branched off was talking about ideas versus finding mechanisms and then the two fields came together again. And

so we could say, okay, like Elon representing the extreme, someone with ADHD, um, and kind of failure to launch kid at home and his, you know, watching YouTube or, you know, just flailing is the kind

of opposite extreme. But we should, we have protocols for how to get muscle stronger, how to get leaner, how to eat, how to improve blood lipids. I mean, we

have protocols for all this stuff, but we have essentially no um really grounded mechanistic technology tools to direct brain states in the in the waking

day. It's like, oh, put put on a mask

day. It's like, oh, put put on a mask and maybe get into like a theta or something. It's like it's crazy. It's

something. It's like it's crazy. It's

it's like we're in the infancy. So, an

environment of the sort that you're talking about is in is an incredible idea because people need to know what to do when in order to set the foundation of alertness and focus that then they

can lean into at the right times. But

then within that that framework of sitting down and coding or sitting down and having a whatever therapy session, whatever the person is doing, maybe they're the therapist, maybe they're the patient, doesn't matter. or maybe

they're doing surgery to have tools that are constantly providing feedback to the brain so that it's in the the right end body so it's in the right state for those activities and AI can do this as

you know I mean this is it's it's not a big reach to accomplish this but we really need to define what it is we're trying to accomplish and I think for most entrepreneurs and most people who

want a better life it's really about understanding okay like what are the three or four blocks of waking states I want to you know accomplish today what am I going to place into those blocks and then getting as much assistance as

they possibly can. And sure, some will come from pharmarmacology, but I think most of it is going to come from directives. I love this idea of like the

directives. I love this idea of like the the the floor lighting up, sending you in the right direction, adjusting for the movement of the sun. Right now,

there are these apps that tell, well, the sun is rising over here, not there.

I mean, it's cool, but it's super crude if you think about it. So, there's

there's so much room for technology development here. I'd like to see a

development here. I'd like to see a real-time cortisol sensor. Mhm.

>> I'd like to see that cortisol sensor have AI based feedback with one's activities so that you can it will essentially tell you what to do and when to make things better including your

sleep. We have access to the sleep data.

sleep. We have access to the sleep data.

I mean soon all of this will be integrated. My question is where will it

integrated. My question is where will it be integrated? I love the idea of an

be integrated? I love the idea of an online community. I think also it should

online community. I think also it should be the case that I just have like a little sticker sensor. I imagine this as a the military uses this um uh they're [clears throat] little sticker sensors that use um you know it's on Bluetooth

it you know 12-h hour battery or something and it can measure everything through cavitation heart rate breathing rate could get cortisol levels it can fe and this is used in the military in the context of kind of monitoring soldiers

out on the field from an iPad they can tell if someone got a bullet wound that's a through and through if they're dead if they you know they can triage from a distance I mean that's an extreme case but we should be able to do this we

should be able like oh you know like I'm probably a little more jazzed up right now than I need to be if I want to you know uh focus in a couple of hours and and but but over time it's just going to naturally bring us into the states we

want to be in as opposed to you know these like subtle electronic taps on the shoulder all the time. It's it's going to probably provide feedback to our Vegas and basically control our

respiration rate and pretty soon we'll be as optimized as could possibly be without any invasive technology. I don't

think of a sticker as invasive.

>> Yeah. In fact, actually there's there's ones that don't break the skin that actually uh can can transmit quite a lot of um information like the sort of non-invasive patches, right? Or at least

non-skinbreaking um you know. So, okay.

So, the Huberman the ideal hubman startup society. Okay. If we were to

startup society. Okay. If we were to take everything you've done because you have a bunch of edits. Let me give you an example. Suppose that we had the

example. Suppose that we had the self-driving car society. You take

existing laws and you just change those laws that and you basically say for example this zone only self-driving cars are allowed no humans. Okay, that

actually changes a lot.

>> Mhm.

>> Because for example, all the cars are parked on the edges and cars are parked in like tunnels underneath the the city and you know people hit a button and the car goes and parks itself and you've got

a walkable center and the entire shape of driveways changes and you don't have lots of parking. Like that one change actually has enormous ripple effects downstream,

>> right? So, for example, are there any

>> right? So, for example, are there any legal changes to permit something or ban something or both that you would propose that would start making the Huberman

special economic zone or or Hubman health zone?

>> Oh, yes. I mean, I really believe that if you get this cortisol thing right, and you um you get your circadian rhythm right, you get your circadian rhythm right, everything else becomes 10 times,

if not a thousand times easier in terms of getting exercise, eating correctly, mental health. I mean, there are a ton

mental health. I mean, there are a ton of data on this now that the brighter your mornings and days, literally, the and the darker your nights in an additive way, the better your mental mental health. Even if you're in a dim

mental health. Even if you're in a dim >> even if you're in a dim environment all day long, which I don't recommend, >> if you make your nighttime environment very dark, mental health improves. If

you make your mornings brighter and your days brighter, mental health improves.

Now, there have been a few companies that have attempted to create lighting that's bright enough during the day and it and create conditions that are dark at night, and it really hasn't gone anywhere. I mean what I would like to

anywhere. I mean what I would like to see so you said like in terms of regulations I think buildings should get either by natural light or by artificial light should ensure that there's enough

bright light early in the day and throughout the day and it's dimmer and darker at night. I mean I wish that were a law. I mean Americans don't like to be

a law. I mean Americans don't like to be told what to do but first of all it would save on energy.

>> Assume what if it's not America? Assume

it can be done somewhere in the world where those people are okay with great you know something as long as it works.

Go ahead.

>> Yeah. And even though, you know, climate change is a controversial thing, you'd also be doing a tremendous service to birds and to insects and to the ecosystem of of non-human animals

because the truth is that light pollution is really screwing things up in terms of like song birds are singing longer now. They're mating song and

longer now. They're mating song and everyone goes, "Oh, that's cool. They're

mating longer." Actually, it's screwing up all sorts of things within the ecosystem because of light pollution.

But what are you going to tell people?

Oh, you got to turn off your lights. I

mean, we're we're a hard driving species. We want to build stuff. You

species. We want to build stuff. You

know, you turn off the lights, but there are ways to modify light cycles, still allow for night shifts, greatly improve health,

and as a byproduct of that, to improve the the climate in the ecosystem for insects, birds, and every other animal.

In the same way that um sound pollution in the oceans is causing major issues for migration of animals and things like that. I don't that's not my main focus.

that. I don't that's not my main focus.

But the more I realize that you this, we're not going to only wake up with the sun and go to sleep with the sun. That's

a great way to reset your mental health.

By the way, there's some really beautiful studies by Kenneth Wright out of University of Colorado that shows people who are depressed, people have anxiety issues, they go camping for a weekend, they actually did this experiment, wake up with the sun, go to

sleep with the sun, >> and even though they're using flashlights at night and stuff, they're not shining the flashlights into their own eyes, right? And so, and their circadian rhythms reset and their mental health improves tremendously just over

and over again. So, I would make I would enforce if if I were in charge, and I'm certainly not, let me put it differently. If I had a magic wand, I

differently. If I had a magic wand, I would create light cycles that are collaborative with human health. Now,

you do have your your uh Mark Andre's.

He's, you know, he's always poking fun at me about the lights. Mark and I, >> he's self-deprecating. He's

self-deprecating.

>> Mark and I are friends. And there's a maybe I shouldn't reveal this, but like it's it's a it's a game we're playing and it's a lot of fun. And but Mark makes a very good point which is like he likes to stay up late and be online and he can crash out after 4 hours of bright

light in the evening and get up in the morning and you know Mark is also a bit of an N of one too, right? I mean if you really think about it I mean so I would enforce um bright light during the

morning and daytime and dark evenings. I

would encourage more walking and more movement. We all know about steps. That

movement. We all know about steps. That

should be scripted into the day's activities in a way. You can't just take away escalators, but there should be something where we're not counting steps where we have feedback on how much

movement we're getting. I think glasses that can read out how much light has been delivered to the eyes. Did you get your photon quota for the day?

>> All this stuff is so easy to do. The pro

problem is it always gets productized as in silo fashion.

>> Exactly. So the integrated you know so it's useful like one of the things with the midjourney and so on now is we can think about what the hubman health

village would look like just magic wand like if you take everything you know >> and like what does the store serve in terms of food and what do the units look

like and how are they arranged and where's the gym and how is that set up and what machines are there and also like you know as you just mentioned the light cycle For example, I'll mention

something. Maybe you're aware of this.

something. Maybe you're aware of this.

Like Jingua in China and a few other places will actually turn off the internet, I think at like 11 p.m. or

something like that >> and only allow >> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> So that the kids don't play video games all night.

>> Amazing.

>> Okay. So now that is something that people might not want imposed on them, but I think a deep point is you can opt into constraints.

>> Yep. Like in the same way like if somebody joins the military, they're signing up for like the uniform code of military justice, you know, or what have you. They're opting in to constraints. Y

you. They're opting in to constraints. Y

>> you know, so you it's like signing a contract. You are consensually signing a

contract. You are consensually signing a contract that then constrains you afterwards for mutual benefit at Right.

So if you opt into constraints, a constrained society gives you in a sense willpower as a service, right? So

another example of this, one of the things we're rolling out at network school, phone lockers so that everybody can give the speaker their full attention or a dinner their full attention. So you

know like the phone lockers at gyms where you can put a phone in a lock go beep beep like this, right? So we

actually make heavier use of those phone lockers. So this way people have sort of

lockers. So this way people have sort of this way they aren't like oh looking down at their phone whenever there's a break in the conversation and everybody there that's like a phone free zone or like a another example is a

Faraday cage zone where uh it's just pencil and paper it's offline time and the internet is sort of blocked. You

know you go into an elevator and the internet is like blocked. So imagine

that some fraction of buildings are offline offices, right? They're Faraday

free zones basically, right?

>> Fantastic.

>> So the reason I think about that is I think that's like, you know, walkability, you know, we we obviously cars are I think cars are good, but we advanced cars. We went to electric cars

advanced cars. We went to electric cars and self-driving cars and even flying cars in China. We also subtracted cars where we had walkable communities, right? In the same way, the internet, I

right? In the same way, the internet, I think, has a lot of good to it. We can

advance that with AI and so and so forth, but you can also subtract it and maybe the answer is like 12 hours a day minimum offline like 8 hours. Go ahead.

>> I um converted an art gallery into a living space recently. I'm in that space now. I knew I wanted I like fish tanks

now. I knew I wanted I like fish tanks obviously so I wanted you know fish tanks actually the one right next to me it's not complete yet but there'll be an octopus there. I'm actually trying to

octopus there. I'm actually trying to get an octopus to use an iPad you know so >> Oh really? Oh wow. So they're smart actually. I'm very interested in in

actually. I'm very interested in in merging sephopods and AI. This is a pet project of mine literally. So, we'll

talk about that some other time. I used

to work on puddlefish. Okay. To my left is a gym with the equipment that I want with skylights. Below that, I turned the

with skylights. Below that, I turned the basement, which used to be a video editing studio for another um the previous owners, into a space. There's

no I don't allow any phones down there or internet. I draw down there because I

or internet. I draw down there because I do anatomical drawings for my book and for other things. I read journal articles. I read books, textbooks, and

articles. I read books, textbooks, and there is I do not bring my phone down there. And I don't even

there. And I don't even >> But you just Yeah, >> we both seem to use spatial memory. Like

I have a little library nook that is just purely offline and I just use pencil and paper. And if I want something internet, I will print it out and I'll bring it there and I'll mark it

up longhand because we're both kind of born in the 80s or 90s or maybe in the late '7s and so on and so forth. And so

remember the offline era and it was actually good to focus offline and then you can operate online. Do you agree with that?

>> 100%. And I think that the people who want to have a strong online presence need to understand that you build the things to bring online offline.

>> Right. Exactly. You know, the moment you're I've come to realize that the moment I'm online, especially in social media, which I love. I really enjoy social media. I am a merged consumer

social media. I am a merged consumer creator. And I think it was the investor

creator. And I think it was the investor Chris Sacka that said you're either, you know, a creator or a manager. Now I

think you're consumer creator. And in

order to bring really good material forward, you have to get offline. You

have to >> Yes. Uh, I just spend a week as I as I

>> Yes. Uh, I just spend a week as I as I do every summer with I'm name dropping here, but my good friend Rick Rick Rubin, we're we're we're close and I go and I spend time with him in Europe and

and most of that time we we're spending um discussing ideas and and the way Rick has created his life is all around being able to maximize the creative energy.

He's big on sunlight. He's he takes great care of himself. He's he's awesome health now. And some years back he he

health now. And some years back he he switched to kind of eating more meat. He

got much leaner and all this, but his whole life is around connecting with his family and connecting with his work. And

he puts real work into it. Meditation

every morning, listening to music, focusing his energy. I mean, he there's nothing haphazard about Rick or his life. People, I think, see him as this

life. People, I think, see him as this like, you know, really mellow dude and but there's an intensity there that's all funneled into incredible work. and

observing that and being able to participate in those kinds of environments has has been immensely beneficial and I try and create my home environment that way. Now it gets trickier with kids and

way. Now it gets trickier with kids and family and all this stuff and there but there are ways to navigate that. There

absolutely are, you know, and >> the key is really, I think, as you point out, to segment spaces or or segment times during the day, but it's very hard

to um say, okay, except perhaps at night, like I'm going to just stay offline, right? I think that segmenting

offline, right? I think that segmenting spaces helps a lot a lot. And um I mention something else. Yeah. which is I think you and I also do this and I find a lot of people don't do this because

it's not the default >> but I turn off all notifications on just about everything definitely >> and I just go and it's almost like a farmer harvesting when I want to I go

and I respond to all my messages but otherwise I turn off I mute everything I turn off all notifications I never want pings appearing on screen it's do not

disturb to the absolute max on all the settings and so forth do you do the Yeah. So the model for all of this

Yeah. So the model for all of this actually I gleaned for myself I gleaned from academia where I realized that the raw material there are two things that mattered most in progressing as a

scientist. One is collecting data

scientist. One is collecting data >> and the other is well three things really. So collecting and publishing

really. So collecting and publishing data and and raising money grants right but then there were all these other things like teaching mentoring students they're all very important and part of

being an academic but I had to put I had on my whiteboard in my office as a junior professor before I got tenure I just said papers grants >> and so I made it I had to just remind

myself to spend 80% of my time my waking time focusing on that because otherwise there's committee work there colleagues dropping by there's the guy that um that just got tenure and they want to come by

and hang out. They want to have a coffee. And you will fail as an academic

coffee. And you will fail as an academic if you are not a bit selfish and self-directed in in grants and papers.

And it's actually what you owe your laboratory. It's what you owe your

laboratory. It's what you owe your students and posttos because nothing stresses out a lab more than the question of will we get this grant. It

stresses it's like telling your kids like listen I don't know if I'm going to get a paycheck. I don't know if we're going to eat and they're like oh my god you it's it's it's actually cruel. It's

it's cruel to do. So I I realized as an academic and I caught some flak for this that I didn't have to go to every seminar. And if I went to a seminar and

seminar. And if I went to a seminar and it wasn't very good, guess what? I stood

up and walked out because I value my time and I care about my students and postocs more than I care about the social constraints around this. And you

know I I did catch some flack. I had a couple like oh we don't see you at seminars. I was like, well, your tenure

seminars. I was like, well, your tenure Howard Hughes investigator, how about we t we talk in five years when and you know, I'll have a bit more time for

this, you know. Um, so it the culture often breeds a distribution of of people's attention and kind of buy into of people's attention in a way that's not considerate of of the the real

goals. Okay. And I love seminars, but if

goals. Okay. And I love seminars, but if it's a shitty seminar, I'm walking out.

I'm sorry. Yes, I'm

>> I agree that. So, I do the same thing in my personal life and in my my work life, which is not everything can be optimized, but I try and set things up so that I can be more present for family

and friends by virtue of the fact that I'm less present for them when I'm working, you know, and and I also think that there soon will be a literature because I know these experiments are

happening where, you know, the brain we know is plastic. We train ourselves for different modes of attention. And if

you're allowing your attention to be broken every, you know, 3 to seven minutes or even more frequently by other devices and other activities,

other communications, you you are training your brain to uh you know to be the squirrel that everyone jokes about with like you know the the squirrel, you know that you're becoming the squirrel

and it's um you know squirrels probably have a better attentional mechanism than a lot of people nowadays. So, I think it took us about 10 years to get here where we're starting to realize, oh, you know, our behaviors feed back on our brain

circuitry and um and now we're starting to try and think about how to recover that. Setting up unique spaces where you

that. Setting up unique spaces where you just don't do certain things also helps other people respect those boundaries because if it's by virtue of time they're like, "Oh, I text if I don't text you before 10:00 a.m., you know,

it's I can't can't get you or after 10 p.m." We tend to respect people's sleep

p.m." We tend to respect people's sleep boundaries >> where >> um you say, you know, you don't expect a text back after 9:00 p.m. for most

people, right? Okay. But space

boundaries are great because people that know me know when I'm down in that basement, I'm not going to respond to anything. I don't care what time of day

anything. I don't care what time of day it is. So if I say I was in my basement,

it is. So if I say I was in my basement, they're like, "Oh." They're not offended.

>> And this stuff matters because in order to make a community work, it not just as a siloed like Huberman community or or Johnson community or biology community that eventually there's going to be

cross talk between these communities.

>> Of course. Of course. And so

understanding that when people are offline it's for a critical reason um often just sends the message um in the same way that you know former dean of our medical school

everyone knew that guy ran every morning from 4:30 to 5:30 a.m. and then ran the medical school and you go he's a badass and kind of and you'd go oh like maybe I

should do something like that. That's a

little early to the Jaco.

>> That That's a little early because you're waking up before the sun, but it is, you know, a certain kind of guy who likes to do that. Tim Cook also gets up and does his bike and or what have you, right?

>> Yeah. And the results obviously uh speak for themselves.

>> Yeah.

>> So now, all right, so slightly switching gear. So that was good. That's like the

gear. So that was good. That's like the human health zone for living. Okay,

>> let's do it.

>> What about >> Let's do it. I want to do it. I want to do it.

>> I Let's do it. I mean, I have it here in my own spot, but let's do it.

>> Yeah. send me photos if you want and then I'll see if we can mock up something over here. Okay. Now related

to that on on like sort of the other end of it is there's a lot of biotech that is not either uh biotech biio medicine genetics you know the whole whole

shebang basically biio medicine is as a whole thing where it is difficult to do in the US medical system because it can't easily get reimbursed or it can't

get a so-called CPT code you know current procedural terminology or FDA doesn't uh allow it through or blocks it for many years whether it's a drug or a

device or um you know there's uh there's also like clea like you know it it you know there's there's many different kinds of regulators and regulatory blocks another one is something called

CPOM corporate practice of medicine where in theory why don't you see too many hospital startups because a non-f physician can't employ a physician by

law because of so-called corporate practice of medicine doctrine and so on and there's various workarounds for this, but they're all pain in the ass workarounds. So, uh, given all that,

workarounds. So, uh, given all that, what does the human health zone look like for the developers of these technologies? So, we just talked about

technologies? So, we just talked about kind of the consumer, right? Like, you

know, the blinds and the sunlight and all of that kind of stuff, you know, the offline time, the patches, the glasses, right? You mentioned all these things

right? You mentioned all these things and that's amazing. What about on the producer side? What kinds of things, you

producer side? What kinds of things, you know, do you see as being held back by the system or what kinds of things you just develop? You mean in terms of uh

just develop? You mean in terms of uh drug and other types of technologies I'd like to see more be more ubiquitous?

>> I'll give a concrete example. So have

you heard of Miniircle in Prosper?

>> No.

>> Okay. So Minccircle is so first what is Prosper? Prosper is a startup society in

Prosper? Prosper is a startup society in Honduras. The law got changed years ago

Honduras. The law got changed years ago to allow for new special economic zones.

And one of the things they had there was a biotech free zone where you could pick regulations from 33 different countries.

So you basically pick and choose. So

this way you have regulatory competition like I was talking about earlier. And

mini circle set up there and uh there's a bunch of people are investors. Sam

Alton's investor. I'm an investor. A

bunch of other people are investors. And

what this did is it basically had an experimental treatment to give you plasmids that would essentially increase um your muscle mass among other things.

Okay. And so it's an experimental treatment and uh one of my friends took it and he said he felt absolutely now there's there's studies on why this looked like they weren't doing it

totally blind. Okay. There's studies on

totally blind. Okay. There's studies on why this looked interesting. He said he felt absolutely amazing afterwards, like 10 years younger, like it was almost like a blood transfusion. And he's

posting about how he looked super jacked afterwards and it was like a different mechanism of action.

>> And then Bezos followed him, Jeff Bezos, because this is something money can't buy, like a genuinely new medical treatment. And that showed, you know,

treatment. And that showed, you know, one of the reasons I'm into startup societies and network states is because we can actually get biotech free zones where it's willing, you know, patient, willing doctor, right? And there's

various controversy around this because people are like, "Oh my god, you shouldn't be free to, you know, I believe in your body, your choice. I do

believe that you should be free to >> Yeah. That's right. And so that that

>> Yeah. That's right. And so that that extends to medical sovereignty, >> right? Like if you want to take a

>> right? Like if you want to take a treatment and the other guy wants to give it to you and you're like of, you know, of age, whether it's 21 or whatever it is in your jurisdiction, let's say it's post 21 years old, you're

walking in cleareyed, you've got informed consent, whatever forms we need." Okay. with whatever procedures,

need." Okay. with whatever procedures, you should be able to be medically sovereign in the same way that you should be able to opt out of the SEC's guidelines and actually go, you know, the SEC didn't want to let anybody other

than quote accredited investors invest in something, which would have meant everybody who wasn't already wealthy would not have been able to invest in crypto and so they wouldn't have become wealthy, right? So the FDA often doesn't

wealthy, right? So the FDA often doesn't want people to have large effectsiz drugs. They want small side effects size

drugs. They want small side effects size drugs which are different, right? Like

large effect size means you have a huge effect and it's like a zmpic. It's like

like a big change in your life. Small

side effect size means FDA doesn't get any negative press. And those are very different in terms of whether it's beneficial to the to the end user or not. Like the entire system in the 20th

not. Like the entire system in the 20th century is set up to minimize side effect size as opposed to maximizing effect size. Mhm.

effect size. Mhm.

>> Um anyway, the reason I'm just saying all that is uh that's an example of a special economic zone, a biotech free zone that allowed one of these treatments because you always see papers

that have these amazing things happening in academia or on mouse experiments, but they never make it to humans because it's like this long 10-year tunnel maybe to get through. Right. So, let's

>> I mean, it's kind of amusing to me that right now it's like the creatine craze.

Creatine's been around. I started taking creatine when I was 18 >> and and it's like and it works. Right.

Right. Right now I'm not taking smarter, too.

>> Yeah. Go ahead.

>> Yeah. And if you're sleepd deprived, I recommend people doubling or tripling the dose for a few days. You'll get a little bit more uh >> you head to the bathroom a few more times, but you'll notice a significant offset of the sleep deprivation effect.

I wouldn't do that over long periods of time but >> yeah, the data on creatine are great. It

works. I I do a wash out every few months where I like right now I just stop taking it and you urinate out a lot of water and it's kind of fun to see how strong you are without the creatine and then get back on it. Kind of builds it's

it's a psychological thing you get kind of build back. It's um but you'd be surprised how much of what what you earned on creatine in terms of strength you keep even off creatine. In any case,

everyone's crazy about creatine right now, right? It took forever for that to

now, right? It took forever for that to hit. You know, first it was vitamin D3,

hit. You know, first it was vitamin D3, now it seems to be creatine. I think

magnesiums are next because turns out I just had an expert chair of autoangurology from Stanford come on and say you know taking magnesium before sleep or just once a day can offset hearing loss we know hearing loss is

related to dementia you know just a standard dose of magnanate or magbis glycinate is you know protects hearing for understood reasons but you're not going to hear that right you're going to hear we can go dig up the mouse papers

but there won't be a clinical trial on humans for treatment of tinidis or anything with magnesium And I'll go out there and say, "Hey, people should take magnesium." And then I get a bunch of

magnesium." And then I get a bunch of MDs going like, "Ah, you're a supplement shill." And I'm like, "All right, well,

shill." And I'm like, "All right, well, let's see who has the our hearing."

Like, look at me and look at you now and in 10 years.

>> Like, I hate to do that cuz it's kind of a dick thing to do, but I just go, "All right." Like, I'm not the fastest or the

right." Like, I'm not the fastest or the strong, but I'm feel like I'm doing really well. My dad

really well. My dad >> has always been very moderate about drinking, careful not to eat too much, not he's not obsessive, exercises, but not too much. focused on his sleep,

worked consistent hours. My dad's 82 and he's firing on eight cylinders. It's

incredible. Like he's still going strong. He's got little things here and

strong. He's got little things here and there. Deals with them, you know, and

there. Deals with them, you know, and it's I again it's cumulative. So for me, the the FDA piece I think you you pointed out very very correctly. They're

trying to minimize side effect size. The

I think the key with opting in and informed consent is that people need to be aware of the realistic risks. I'll

give an example. So, I'm going to kind of push back on this even though I agree with you, >> which is stem cells. Okay. Um, stem cell therapies were allowed in the United

States. They were sort of let allowed to

States. They were sort of let allowed to happen kind of duck to the FDA re radar.

Um, stem cells sounds great, right? Like

you want cells that can become other cells to replace connective tissue, brain, and etc., but you know, stem cells are a big part of the reasons why tumors proliferate, too. Um, there was a

company down in Florida marketing stem cells for macular degeneration and other forms of blindness. People who were losing their vision or concerned about that got injections of stem cells into

their eye and they went blind very quickly which shut down any advertising for stem cells on Google. You can't just say I you have a stem cell company now it's kind of merged with other things.

It's kind of cryptic what it is. Look,

stem cells injected into your shoulder might be one thing or your knee. I know

a very prominent physician in the wellness space who got an injection of stem cells down in Mexico into his back, kept up with his sauna protocols, so it's unclear what actually causes, and

ended up with an egg-sized um infection sepsis issue that almost made him paralyzed. I know because the the repair

paralyzed. I know because the the repair surgery was uh done in a clinic I'm very familiar with by a very qualified neurosurgeon and they said, "This guy's super lucky. Why are you and your

super lucky. Why are you and your friends, you're, you know, um messing around with stem cells? it's not FDA approved, etc. So, the informed consent has to be done in a way that people

understand the the realistic risks, not just in a hey, sign this form with all the terrible stuff that can happen.

>> Totally. Totally.

>> Right. I will accept a stem cell injection perhaps. I've never had them,

injection perhaps. I've never had them, but into maybe into my shoulder or my knee. I don't want it anywhere near my

knee. I don't want it anywhere near my nervous system. I don't want it in the

nervous system. I don't want it in the central nervous system. Not in my spinal cord, not into my brain, not into my eye. Thank you very much. It's just that

eye. Thank you very much. It's just that that tissue is too precious, impossible to replace, and the data just aren't there. That said,

there. That said, >> go ahead.

>> I think there are a lot of things like for instance, people struggle with sleep. I think even if you're already

sleep. I think even if you're already doing all the best things for sleep, there's a an outsized benefit to getting a bit more REM sleep each night. Sure,

you can heat your bed, but turns out there's a peptide called pinealin, which helps regenerate the pinealytes of the pineal gland, which secretes melatonin.

And you can pulse with pinealin every third night or so and see dramatic improvements in REM sleep consistently on every night. Really impressive. Not

FDA approved, but not banned either. I

think as soon as people realize how powerful pineal is as a sleep aid, it's going to be not as big as ompic, but it's going to be headed in that direction. Okay. Um, you can ask Brian.

direction. Okay. Um, you can ask Brian.

I believe I don't want to speak for him, but I'm pretty sure we've had conversations where he's either experimented with or uses pineal and I don't know if he does. Things like SS31, a peptide to improve mitochondrial health. Sure, red light from the sun,

health. Sure, red light from the sun, red light from a red light bed or a unit will improve mitochondrial health. SS31

improves mitochondrial health. Is it

safe? Well, we're still finding out seems to be pretty safe. These things

will never get FDA approval unless they become like Osmpic where the effect size is huge and the market is huge. So, I'm

very excited about what you're saying where there are going to be markets for things that people are not aware of where it's being sold on gray market right now where it's not clear what

you're getting. And I think fortunately

you're getting. And I think fortunately the current administration seems to want peptides to be um a semi-regulated space as opposed to an unregulated space. But

for peptides to be available because the pharma community would love to shut down the peptide and compounding far uh pharmacy industry. Look, most people can

pharmacy industry. Look, most people can get by taking onetenth of the amount of of ompic or ompic like drug for for reduction of body weight with far fewer

side effects. But onetenth means the

side effects. But onetenth means the drug companies are making onetenth the profit. So a lot of people are now going

profit. So a lot of people are now going to compoundingarmacies for their ompic monjaro and similar and getting awesome effects. Awesome effects. I don't take

effects. Awesome effects. I don't take it. I never have. But if I ever need to

it. I never have. But if I ever need to lose some weight, I certainly will and I'll go that route. So, I I think it's it's very I would love to see um a kind

of a merge between better oversight of quality of products and messaging around more thorough messaging around those products as opposed to just being kind of the wild west online. You can go online and buy peptides. There needs to

be something in between strict FDA regulations and just kind of wild west gray market. We really need that. And I

gray market. We really need that. And I

don't know if that could be established in Singapore, if it could be established elsewhere, but I think the current administration in the United States is has made room for that, is going to continue to make room for that. The same

way we have for supplements, they're not unregulated. You have NSF uh, you know,

unregulated. You have NSF uh, you know, tested for sport. There are regulations and guidelines that allow people to make better informed choices. We all know what those brands are. They're the like five or six big brands in

supplementation. You kind of trust,

supplementation. You kind of trust, okay, this is third party tested, NSF certified for sport. If you're a state, if you're a mom or a dad or a whatever, an academic or a a programmer, you're an

AI founder, you feel better taking something that has a few of those stamps. Period.

stamps. Period.

>> So, I I agree with a lot of that. I want

to give a slight push back on the push back and then just get, you know, okay.

Yeah. So, my view is no plane crashes, no planes, >> no train crashes, no trains, right? like

that say if somebody wasn't first on let's say an open heart surgery or a brain transplant u we'd never know that those things worked and you know like

somebody might be okay but they're kind of failing and they take the risk of literally dying to get a heart transplant and then they're better right so they take extreme downside risk for upside potentially right

>> and so I agree with you on the disclosure and on the information there there's ways you can do it with registries and so on and so forth potentially right? Talk to previous

potentially right? Talk to previous patients and so on. There's two other things that can be done more than two but at least two. Um

so uh one of them is you know farm GKB Russ Alman's >> I've heard of it but I'm not familiar with the details.

>> Okay so farm GKB um is because you're on you're maybe more on the neuro side of things and I'm more on the diagnostics like genomic side of things. Right. So

far I mean obviously we know a little bit of both but that's just kind of my background. Yeah.

background. Yeah.

>> So far GKB has been around for more than 20 years and it's a database of all kinds of um genetic drug interactions,

right? So if I have VKC1 variance and

right? So if I have VKC1 variance and CYP2A9, then what is my warerin response, right? And how does it relate

response, right? And how does it relate to like vitamin K intake and so on and so forth? And sometimes you could have a

so forth? And sometimes you could have a little old lady that needs a huge warerin dose and a big football player that you know bleeds out from a much smaller dose. And you don't know that

smaller dose. And you don't know that until you know the genetics of it. So in

theory before you take some of these treatments if everybody had their personal genome we could partially forecast the result of that treatment for a large number of treatments. Right.

>> And a whole body MRI for instance something that gets knocked a lot I think is fantastic not just as a you know tumor detection tool but as something like as a structural detection

tool and understanding where people could could benefit where people might truly be at risk. I I think absolutely absolutely >> and have have you heard you you may have heard like organoids did you know that that

>> yeah I had Sergu Pasca on the podcast recently he's one of the leaders in that space u okay great from Stanford yeah we were posttos together bu building assemblids and organoids to test um neurons and other responses in a dish

basically >> that's right so in theory you could have a patientderived organoid that is mini huberman in a petri dish or mini biology

in a petri dish And then I could uh you know it's amazing how much that cell culture will sort of predict about your own physiological response but it's only the thing in the petri dish that is

taking the hit like an allergic response. It's not 100% of course, but

response. It's not 100% of course, but it's like a proxy for you in the same way that like the pharmicogenomic lookup is like a proxy before your main body takes it. Just like you're saying

takes it. Just like you're saying injected in my knee, injected in my arm, but not like the main stuff, right? Like

so this is less precious tissue that can kind of, you know, be a proxy for yourself, the organoid before it goes into Right.

>> I love that. I'll tell you, you know, um I mean, if you It made it brought to mind kind of a chuckle in my head where, you know, it's so crazy if someone goes in for an allergen test, right? they

like rub the the thing on them. It's

like [clears throat] I mean it's it's okay. It's low level, but it's it's kind

okay. It's low level, but it's it's kind of tedious and you it doesn't allow you to implement over time. Like if some new allergen comes on or some new detection test, you want all that run. You don't

want have to go in. I mean, we're finally getting to the point where you don't have to like go to an office quite as much. People, you know, they remote

as much. People, you know, they remote flotist.

>> I wonder what your thoughts are and why this space tends to stumble and stagger along for so long and then like we get these so-called breakthroughs, right? I

mean it was Empic Monjaro the GLP peptides have been known about for a very long time.

>> They were in the niche communities of bodybuilding and fitness and all that and then it broke through. Um there are other things I think pinealin is going to be very important. I think for people who want to increase testosterone

um rather than taking testosterone people will be taking things peptides like gonatarellin which support the hypothalamic pituitary axis more generally don't shut down hormone

production. I mean, it's just wild how

production. I mean, it's just wild how we feel like the kit is basically um you know like pharmaceuticals which don't give you much control over in space and

time but existing pharmaceuticals are they'll get you someplace. I think of this kind of like my buddy Peter Aia, right? He because he's comes from

right? He because he's comes from medicine and was trained at Stanford.

Like he has more of a he he'll use some supplements and talk about them a little bit. He's really a behaviors and drugs

bit. He's really a behaviors and drugs guy, right? Like if you really like if

guy, right? Like if you really like if you look at what he said like I'm not for him.

>> Yeah. It's just his training is in prescription drugs. He always says, you

prescription drugs. He always says, you know, it's been tested BPC57 for for joints and recovery. Anyone that's taken it either got a very strong placebo effect or can just tell you somehow it works. Maybe it's placebo, maybe it's

works. Maybe it's placebo, maybe it's not. But Peter is like, uh, I don't know

not. But Peter is like, uh, I don't know about BBC157. It's not FDA. Like,

about BBC157. It's not FDA. Like,

there's no trials on it. I feel

comfortable taking it, trying it. So,

how do we bridge this space so that it becomes formalized? Because I I think

becomes formalized? Because I I think that there's a huge opportunity here, but someone's got to take it and run with it. And I don't know anyone that's

with it. And I don't know anyone that's like the >> that's really doing that. And and I know what's that.

>> Okay. Say what you're going to say and I'll say something.

>> Yeah. I mean, I like to see when people build structures. So, I not to go off on

build structures. So, I not to go off on too long of a riff here, but you know, I started talking about health practices during the pandemic. Then I started my podcast and I was like, look, there's a lot of information you can glean from

science that can you can use to benefit yourself. But, and I'm writing this

yourself. But, and I'm writing this book, they'll be out next year, not this September, but next September because I want to formalize that into the the

protocols. But I have to say like what

protocols. But I have to say like what Brian was um doing with Blueprint or what people are doing with function health or what or what Peter Aia is starting to do in these different people

are trying to bring it together under single platforms so that you don't have to do so much people don't have to do so much work running around trying to

figure out what to do. Um but it's still very peacemeal. feels to me like um

very peacemeal. feels to me like um there should be a go front gate where you go in, they take blood, they take a skin sample, they build an organoid, you get a couple devices, and then you just

live life for a little while. You get

feedback, update, live life, update, you know. Um I

know. Um I I don't think we're even close to there because >> but we could get there because >> we absolutely could get there and I'm I just want to know what's the next step

with let's say the next 6 months 12 months year to get to that platform because I I'm excited about what you're saying but I I worry that we're just going to go a drift as a as a health field.

>> Okay. So here is what I propose. So

first is we write the spec for like literally let's say it's an AI prompt.

Okay. For everything that the ideal human health zone would have. So, let me just enumerate some of the things you mentioned. There's the patches, there's

mentioned. There's the patches, there's the glasses, there's the opening of the curtains, and the cortisol spike in the morning, cold water workout, and then

shut down dark nights at at at night.

There's also the diet. It's not

hamburgers and stuff like that. It's,

you know, like like healthier uh foods.

Um there is um the uh the other kinds of devices whether it's like you know watches for like fit you know like like step tracking and so there's a zillion

quantified self gizmos there's uh peptides like mangaro and GLPS uh there's supplements so there's creatine

vitamin D magnesium um there's uh there's a bunch of other stuff that we mentioned but that that covers that covers several pieces and goal directed and and the psychology

piece would be sort of where where people would identify one or two pain points either work focus pain points, relational pain points and you'd have real experts that could handle that quickly.

>> I mean there's a whole conversation to be had about the kind of the the psychedelic space like you know which either seems to rescue entrepreneurs and founders or collapse them >> or Yeah, collapse them. Yeah, exactly.

>> Collapse them. You have to acknowledge one shot. You can do too much too many

one shot. You can do too much too many psychedelics >> and for some people too many psychedelics means one journey.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> And some people benefit from them tremendously. You know on the podcast

tremendously. You know on the podcast today I >> that's where the pharma jump sorry who's the consciousness guy and he talks about his experiences on DMT fundamentally shifting how he thinks about

consciousness and evolving his work. But

he's a guy who did it once and is still thinking about that 5 years later and updating his research. I mean, Kristoff is one of the leaders in the research on consciousness for over 30 years. Yeah,

I've seen a lot of people collapse themselves with psychedelics. So, I'm

not suggesting that, but where people have pain points and hang-ups and psychological hang-ups, they need to not have to go to a retreat

um and be able to work on that. I mean I I think that that would be integrated into the space as well.

>> Yes. So by the pharmaccogenomic point could be helpful there as well because you might be able to predict which people would have a bad reaction versus which could tolerate it for psychedelics

for all kinds of things. But um so so my thought is here's here's a possible line of attack. A let's figure out what the

of attack. A let's figure out what the ideal is like the magic wand kind of thing right you have you know you've been elected president of this network state okay in a tech what I call a

technodemocratic election meaning you have onchain votes that are recorded so you have a thousand 10,000 people they've recorded you have authority to do okay fine so you can or or you're just building the community from scratch

a real estate developer or some combination all right so you've laid out everything and so what does it look like and so so we have all that then we make

a video like a like a just a short of what a day in the life looks like and we pause and freeze frame and when you see a patch kind of thing for example on

someone's neck or below someone's shirt we pause and we show citation citation citation citation citation citation because you and I both you know it's it's a it's hard sci-fi this is not

impossible stuff it's just system integration of things where in many cases you point out they've been around for some time creatine's been around for some time obviously uh the GLPs have been around the time the patches more than 10 years ago I had

seen the non-invasive patches and it's just kind of been hard to get them out into the public for various regulatory reasons. Um, so we take all this stuff,

reasons. Um, so we take all this stuff, you know, for example, there's treatments to reverse aging in mice that, you know, there's there's amazing phenotypes where like you've got old

bald, you know, mice over here and then like a sleek mouse and they're both two years old and and, you know, there's cancer drugs that show like reversing graying of hair, right? So

we we take all we freeze frame and we show sight sight sight sight sight like pops out, you know, like this, right? So

it it's like suspension disbelief. Then

like the movie kind of continues and then we basically have something which says to a regulator in the UAE in lots of small countries by the way this is

the secret I think the thesis antithesis synthesis okay FDA holds back a lot of things but the antithesis is you want some form of

regulation some form of quality control right the synthesis I think is lots of small sovereigns which are still states and legitimately

can enforce rules could set up their own biotech free zones and have people like you or Peteria or Brian Johnson plus traditional MDs or what have you as a

panel as you were mentioning earlier >> that just review stuff for that sovereign >> and then they have a trade-off between okay maybe they'll get some flak but maybe this is a really promising new

treatment maybe it's a like like stool transplants for example sound weird but are good.

>> Oh, the data are really impressive as are uh you know transfusions of young to old bloodiosis. Oh, a for a former

old bloodiosis. Oh, a for a former postoc of mine went to go work for my uh my colleague Tony Weiss Cory's company which has Tony was the first person to you know talk about transfusions you

know the baby blood stuff and parabiosing animals and it's remarkable they're now looking at this for improvement of vision you know reversing blinding diseases I mean the data are

still incoming but it's spectacular what it the the mouse data are spectacular the human data are promising and you know It's I love this. I mean, I

if if you tell me how to implement this, I'm game, right? I think you're going to tell me that this is going to be linked to to the uh crypto community, right, at some level.

>> Yeah.

>> Here's why. Here's why. The reason is crypto is risk capital, >> right? There's billions and billions and

>> right? There's billions and billions and billions of dollars in crypto. I mean, I think there's a deep similarity here, which is it is I've heard of DI De.

Okay. Right. So that's like crypto funding science outside the system, right? So it's like still technical

right? So it's like still technical people, but they're willing to go and add up all the numbers outside the

academic mast head for example and um just like crypto has built billions trillions of dollars of value outside Wall Street, right? in a way that's open to everyone, not just those people in I

mean it's still something which impresses the best people on Wall Street especially today. So similarly with DI

especially today. So similarly with DI you know a few things that I think are coming like the crypto plus science movement one is turning people from patients into active participants in

their own health.

>> They're not just >> amen to that. I absolutely love that. I

mean the the you know hospitals are depressing places even for the physicians that work there. I mean, it's just like there's some beautiful hospitals like Stamford has built this incredible hospital. Actually, Mark and

incredible hospital. Actually, Mark and and Laura, >> yeah, they the the emergency children's hospital, right? They they created that.

hospital, right? They they created that.

I mean, they they made that possible.

Um, beautiful hospitals exist, but no one no one wants to go to a hospital.

people care about their health and there's nothing in between um and this is sounding kind of you know cliche nowadays but to say it but um between

you know sickness care and and not seeing your doctor you there's not a lot of prohealth care >> and you get those silly posters like you know here are the food groups and like

here's how you move like none of that stuff works none of it works >> exactly well that's the thing that's why I like what you and I mean in a sense You know, 10 years ago, I remember

realizing that fitness and beauty were the back door to health and and medicine. And the reason is people will

medicine. And the reason is people will actually pay cash out of pocket for fitness and beauty to get better. And

then in that you can sneak in all of the medical and health lessons and so on to like improve from their baseline as opposed to waiting till something is

broke and then fixing it which is the traditional medical system and it does very little for you after you know like like something I mean it can maybe get you back to normal but then has no interest in making you better than normal. Right.

normal. Right.

>> Right. Well, have you noticed that the uh if you look historically like there are these three main disperate communities from which every new health technology besides standard drug discovery

>> let me guess bro science >> okay what are the other ones that you guess let's you >> was that one of them >> yeah well yeah I was going to say you know no one wants to admit this but it's like bodybuilding

>> plastics plastic surgery >> and uh and academic science >> those three commun ities couldn't be more different from one another, right?

And yet the bodybuilders learned to use nutrition and hormone augmentation and training, let's say training, nutrition, hormone augmentation, right? And they

took it to the extremes, but then and then the aesthetic whatever community.

Um, >> you know, my goal is to be the last person in Los Angeles, where I currently live now, that hasn't gotten Botox or anything. I'm I'm graying and like I I

anything. I'm I'm graying and like I I chose to not do that. I don't

>> just You're a distinguished gray. I

think you both have a >> I don't you know I just sort of I don't dye my hair. I just decided, you know, to see what, you know, I can't say I never will embrace that community, but I

have a friend, um, Jason Diamond, who is like he's one of the like premier plastic surgeons and and and it's interesting because that community is does all this stuff of like moving fat from here to there and a little bit of

this and a little bit of the nip tuck thing as they say. And then the academic community um is a is embraces real mechanisms and discovery. But I had to see a lot of my

discovery. But I had to see a lot of my colleagues get sick and some die and many look getting what we call the tenur look where they like 5 years after they start you're like what happened to you?

A lot of founders experienced this too because it's intense.

>> But in all kidding aside the people in the sleep um science community at Stanford were the ones that back in the mid9s really I would like Demen and a guy named Emanuel Mongol who discovered

the genes and mechanisms of narcolepsy.

Every day the laboratory would migrate outside to get sunlight before going back in for the la latter half of the day's work. And I was like, "What are

day's work. And I was like, "What are you doing?" He's like, "You're setting

you doing?" He's like, "You're setting your circadian rhythm. This will give you energy the next morning." And this is an MD PhD. He was a Howard Hughes investigator at one point. I'm thinking

like, "These are interest. These are

smart people, right? What?" And I'm like, "Why don't we know this stuff?"

He's like, "Oh, all the data are in mice. You can't get people to do this

mice. You can't get people to do this stuff consistently."

stuff consistently." And I thought, "This is crazy. These are

some of the most powerful mechanisms Circadian biology is one of the most powerful aspects to our daily living. No

one escapes circadian biology. It shapes

our health. It shapes our illness and we can work with it. And I thought to myself, gosh, somebody needs to bridge these things. I always enjoyed

these things. I always enjoyed resistance training and running. I like

to run. I'm not a great runner, but I'm an avid runner, as they say. And and so I realized that what we're trying to do and what the podcast community is trying to do, what AIA is trying to do, what I'm trying to do, what Matt Walker is trying to do, what Brian's doing, and

clearly what you're trying to do is create this fourth category that respects the the view that some of that stuff is pretty extreme, but that it's

not very you can't implement it. Like

bodybuilding is not applicable to most people, but certain pieces of it are. Um

extreme endurance training isn't, but certain pieces of it are. the aesthetic

thing is is not, but certain pieces are.

And academic science is applicable. Not

all of it, but certain pieces are. And

that's where I was like, "Okay, I bridge two of these three silos. I'm going to get out there and start messaging about it." And I love the idea of of

it." And I love the idea of of establishing a community. Here's my one concern that I I would love for you to explain how we get our heads around. The

moment you get a person in charge of a community, they're called a guru or a cult leader. unless they're a president.

cult leader. unless they're a president.

So, I've got actually Go ahead, finish your saying and I've got >> Yeah. And so, you know, I'm only half

>> Yeah. And so, you know, I'm only half kidding here, but you know, like sometimes the messaging can get contorted from the outside in a way that's very that pulls the thing down from below. I'm not worried about what

from below. I'm not worried about what people say. I'm worried about people not

people say. I'm worried about people not receiving the critical messaging or having the opportunity to implement this stuff because >> the moment it's under the rubric of of someone's name, typically it become we

get these like cult images, right?

>> Totally, totally. Totally. So, so I've got I got a few thoughts on that. So

first is the same technology that you can use to send one bitcoin on chain you can actually use to record one vote.

>> It's like a it's like a the debit and credit and in such a way that it's cryptographically provable that they made the vote who did it when they did it which wallet they did it from who

they voted for and so on and so forth.

Basically you can I can get to details but a high level you can see how that's true. Right.

true. Right.

>> Cool. So what we can do is we can actually have binding onchain plebicides in the same way we have binding onchain transactions.

And the the amazing thing about cryptocurrency is it transacts across borders like that is to say a Japanese person can pay a Brazilian who can pay a

a Frenchman and so on and so forth and that just works. because it's all internet and the fact that they have three different national currencies doesn't matter with techno democracy and I can I can share that video with you afterwards. We

extend that so that you can now basically hold an election a genuine election on chain and a Japanese person, a Brazilian and a French can all vote

for you as Andrew Humeman, president of a startup society.

And that vote is what I call the social smart contract. They're literally

smart contract. They're literally signing a smart contract that is also a social contract. And it says you're

social contract. And it says you're basically collecting a thumbs up from a bunch of crypto wallets. But a crypto wallet is a much more powerful thing than people realize because today it's

upstream of like funds and uh you know like your like money and messaging. Like

it's upstream of like access to a Discord or to a to a crypto wallet which is money that's real. But tomorrow it's upstream of uh drones or uh or doors like like crypto wallets can open doors

like because they're keys. They can turn locks. They can turn on machines. They

locks. They can turn on machines. They

can turn on sequencing devices. They

could unlock data stores. Crypto wallets

can do a lot of things. They're

basically just very powerful data structures, right? And um so if you have

structures, right? And um so if you have hundreds or thousands or millions of crypto wallets that are all voting for something, that's like the formation of a digital state.

It is crowdfunding basically, right? You

can do a lot with that. It's a very very general concept and the formation of it can be shown to be a million consensual actions uncoerced of people's own free will. Right? It's like a streaming vote

will. Right? It's like a streaming vote because they can all come in one at a time and you can build up that following over time. Right? Okay. So, because of

over time. Right? Okay. So, because of that, that's a mechanism to become president, legitimately president of a network state because you're actually

winning a vote of their own free will there, right? And so we take the same

there, right? And so we take the same concepts of democracy just like you know sort of the internet reclaimed free speech you know it was in touch and go and they pulled it kind of pulled it back and we kind of reclaimed free

speech we can reclaim democracy so that's one big piece okay and uh the second piece is I agree with you like you know one of the things about network

state societies is uh you want it to be minimal necessary individual so you you publish a blueprint and I know Brian has actually used the term blueprint, right?

So, call it, you know, blueprint in the small B sense. Okay? You publish a blueprint and you're just doing the first one to show that it works. You're

you're doing a template and you publish a template. Why? Because I know and you

a template. Why? Because I know and you know, we don't have all the answers and then let other people copy and fork it just like an open- source kind of blueprint. We actually have the

blueprint. We actually have the architectural diagrams there and the, you know, all this kind of stuff, right?

So I think that is my answer to obviating or or addressing those two correct points that you mentioned which are a we have legitimacy because it's provable >> and b we have decentralization so it's

not personal.

>> Great. I love it. Um it helps me envision a number of ways that we could try and scale the protocols as we refer to them.

>> Yes. Um because that's ultimately what I want to do you know with is half kidding you know I decided to write a book called protocols right a user manual for the human brain and body and was going

to release it this month and then decided well I want to put illustrations so that people can really put this stuff into a framework visuals make a big but if you think about how clunky I know it's so clunky it's so old school when

you really think about the approach and yet books and podcasts and social media are largely the the best tools that we have at this point.

Traditional media has a partial but diminishing role in this, right?

Although I will say it's kind of interesting. I went on Bill Maher a few

interesting. I went on Bill Maher a few weeks ago. We had discussion about

weeks ago. We had discussion about public health and health practices, alcohol sunlight etc. >> And it's interesting to see some of these media channels that I think Bill's kind of sit somewhere in the middle

between extreme right and extreme left.

Um, >> yeah, >> basically right. I mean the Democrats and Republicans and you know the the surge in in new in new audience from that was tremendous and so I think

there's a I anticipate >> at least in the next 24 months >> a growing role for um new forms of traditional media if you will people who

are not like not CNN New York Times versus Fox right um but things in between even if they're linked to some of those networks >> maybe the new Barry Weiss maybe the the free press is a great

example of that. I think we're going to see more of that. And yet,

>> if you Okay, so if you add that in, plus books, plus podcast, plus social media, >> the the uh integrated implementation of all of this requires what you're describing. So, I'm super excited about

describing. So, I'm super excited about it.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. So, I'm super excited about what I'm hearing. I'm learning during this

I'm hearing. I'm learning during this podcast, which is awesome.

>> You got it. And just to Exactly. So, we

have all of these internet innovations and we want to package them together in the physical world. And so you just need like a relatively small piece of real estate to actually do that and a bunch

of people who will opt in. So for

example, you know, my friends at Coinbase just set up something they call Base Camp, which is a popup, like a pop-up village where you can use Coinbase technologies to pay and do contracts and stuff like that.

>> Good. I purchased Bitcoin on Coinbase this morning.

>> Great. Okay.

>> That's the only place where I purchased my crypto. So uh

my crypto. So uh >> Okay. Well, but but bring it locally or

>> Okay. Well, but but bring it locally or get get it to your local wallet and so on. So, I love Coinbase, but they'll

on. So, I love Coinbase, but they'll also tell you to do that. So, um the so Coinbase has base camp. This is this is a term we call a popup, right? Because

doing like a full real estate buildout like we've done at Network School is like a significant commitment, but we could have the Huberman Health Village popup here at Network School if you want

to do that. and we just have whatever thousand square feet or tens of thousands of square feet and we go through a bunch of your old podcasts and we just have a clip of you saying

something and boom, we immediately cut to the implementation of that in the physical world, right? Like the the IoT curtains or something like that, right?

Or you say magnesium and we've got the shelves with magnesium supplements in every room. Just like imagine 50 clips

every room. Just like imagine 50 clips like that where you're basically projecting all your concepts system integrated into the physical world in the same way like an iPhone integrates a camera and it integrates a you know an

accelerometer and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts right and uh and the reason for this is you have a formula and you have managed to probably get an N of one implementation of that

that works for you >> but with some thought you can probably scale that for others because they're not going to be as skilled and balancing it and setting it all up in such a way, right?

>> Yeah. I mean, that's what the book is.

It's trying to explain to people what they can do in order of descending importance, you know, >> that's right. But, but like for just as a small example, bulk orders of magnesium or creatine, they're not that expensive, but you could, you know, you

can get bulk discounts on many different kinds of things, right? So, a bunch of people are doing together. And what's

cool about this is then people, you know, they come in and, you know, 30 days later after the human health zone, right, or whatever we want to call it.

Um, their their skin is glowing, their eyes are light, they've, you know, you show the sleep tracker. Actually, you know what? We could even do like a

what? We could even do like a traditional academic study where we, you know, we show their metrics and stuff beforehand and then we show everything

improving 30 or 60 days in and you and ideally it's like large effect size where it's just you don't even have to do stats on it. It's just like, you know, boom, square wave, right? Um, and

certain kinds of things are like that like you know the the diabetes prevention program, the DPP, are you familiar with that?

>> Right. that has like a very large effect size because they basically make everybody work out and eat vegetables and and so >> blood glucose regulation gets better.

>> Yes, exactly. They lose like 10% of body weight or some some some significant amount which is a lot for a lot of right. So I think also this is something

right. So I think also this is something where once it's done on a small scale like that and and we videotape the whole thing and that's content for the pod

right then like governments are like whoa this is awesome I want to modify my city or a real estate developer says I want to build a new real estate on this basis so we built something which is

both a cool experiment and demonstration in its own right but it's meant to be a prototype and template for like healthy hubmen living around the Listen, I'm all for it. Uh, let's do it. Uh, it sounds

for it. Uh, let's do it. Uh, it sounds like Singapore sounds like Singapore is the place to do it. Um,

>> a great place. Yes.

>> US would be would be very complicated.

California would be especially complicated. I mean, regulations here

complicated. I mean, regulations here are like absurd. And, um, I say that as a lifetime Californian who uh uh lived through the fires, multiple earthquakes,

including the 89. I mean, the the the way that things are constrained here.

Actually, I read the book or listened to the book Abundance. You know, Ezra Kleinway is quite good in in explaining why it's so hard to get things done in California. Um, Singapore sounds like

California. Um, Singapore sounds like the place to do it.

>> I love this because we also need reflections and data and feedback from not just males, but we need women, kids.

A lot of my friends who are able are homeschooling their kids or in small collector. they have like other kids

collector. they have like other kids over and they like group homeschool their kids and they're creating these environments of kids are wearing, you know, Red Lens Roa glasses in the evening. They're off devices at night.

evening. They're off devices at night.

They're it's very controlled. They're

eating really good food. Um they're

getting their proteins, their essential fatty acids. They're getting sunlight.

fatty acids. They're getting sunlight.

They're, you know, this is what you're trying to recreate. Uh it sounds like one is trying to recreate excuse me something like from the 70s and 80s and 90s but actually it's taking the best of

that integrating it with devices and with modern nutrition and supplementation technitional. Yeah, it's

supplementation technitional. Yeah, it's not it's not trying to go back to the wonder years. Only a few people will get

wonder years. Only a few people will get that reference, you know, but it's trying to integrate of that era of of growing up as a teen or a young kid with

what we now know from modern science, which is clearly going to extend life lifespan, clearly going to improve brain development, clearly going to set those

kids apart in ways that none of us can predict. And it's not just And of

predict. And it's not just And of course, they use their devices. They

love their devices. All these kids are into like roadblocks and all the other stuff that other kids are into, but it's it's a controlled environment and they come to learn that that environment of different things at different times of

day, other things not at certain times of day or night is normal.

>> It's better for them. It's normal,

right?

>> Yes. That's right. Exactly. And you

know, there's two or three other parts of this that we touched on that I wanted to, you know, say. one is everybody there is a is an active participant in their own health rather than just a

passive row in a table you know right and so you know you know the concept of adaptive clinical trials >> right like where basically you don't have to you know the entire you know

what's funny is I actually think we need to do case control studies on case control studies we need to do regulatory science on regulators and what I mean by

that is like many things I mean most things in software and hardware. I mean,

SpaceX was not developed via case control studies. Those are only for

control studies. Those are only for teasing out a small effect size that's not obvious to the visible eye. And

iteration is, you know, for example, when you try and find a software bug, you have a thesis on it and you do iteration or you do get bisect, there's other mechanisms to try to find like

what piece of code had the effect on the outcome, right? And so a case control

outcome, right? And so a case control study and case control studies means for example you have one jurisdiction that only uses that method to try to find new medical discoveries and if another one that actually uses the older method you

don't like banting and best from like the 1920s.

So the way they discovered that insulin worked, I mean they won a Nobel Prize and the way they did it was they first they had the theory, then they um they

they tested on dogs, then they tested on um themselves, then they tested on volunteers, and then you know they had patients just like literally jump out of bed like true bench to bedside like they

walk over with the bubbling beaker you know and that was something where from 1921 they had the idea by 1923 scale production by Eli Liy for the entire North American continent and they won

the Nobel Prize. That was when pharma moved at the speed of software because they could iterate. Also, they could change formulation, you know, all this kind of stuff that requires crazy FDA

review to go from, you know, like injectable to oral to patch to this that and the other. They could just that that's like, you know, mobile client, desktop client, you know, command line

client. They could just edit the

client. They could just edit the formulation, edit the dosage, titrate this, that, and the other. Just look and see if it works. and they do it by feel because the effect size was large enough that they could see it. Right? That was

when of course there were patent medicines and scams and so on and so forth. But that was also when lots of

forth. But that was also when lots of the wonder drugs were developed which is why which FDS acknowledged by grandfathering all kinds of drugs before the modern era. And in many ways I think we're going back to that time right there will be more downside. There will

be more things that don't work. There

will be a lot more miraculous things that really really work. And on balance these things scale because they get replicated billions of times and the failures happen usually once right so

that is kind of the vision for what these health zones would be >> and you know obviously you can you don't no one's going to force you to take a treatment >> but you could go in and you could be the

first one the first 10 the first hundred the first thousand also one thing I think is those people who are very early adopters we should give them the equivalent of the presidential medal of freedom because people go and they die

in the milit milary, they die bungee jumping, they die skydiving, they die in sort of foolhardy things, they take risks that don't benefit anybody. But

those people who are like the first to try some treatment that could benefit a lot of people should be honored and you know like even if it doesn't work out for them, all their bills are paid and so on and so forth because you know it's a it's like a thing they're doing for

humanity. You know what I mean? Like we

humanity. You know what I mean? Like we

have to change like we can make movies on this. Go ahead.

on this. Go ahead.

>> I totally agree. I and you know hopefully no one will die. Um, but you actually some people will come to it rather late. You know, I've had people

rather late. You know, I've had people >> reach out who came to some of the protocols in the podcast that I cover on the podcast and elsewhere in their 80s.

>> Oh, wow.

>> And and feel now some of them were already exercising, some were doing better. That's the other category that I

better. That's the other category that I forgot to mention earlier that of people in the academic community who will reach out and say hey listen you know the

sunlight thing or the you know uh rarely it's the creatine thing but the you know exercise thing has has been transformative. What we forget sometimes

transformative. What we forget sometimes is that if people are if you can get people to sleep better like basically you have a a friend for life right? If

people um can lose weight where they haven't been able to lose weight previously or feel more vigor um I think that creates a buyin of the very best kind right because they own the tools

inside them at that point. Um I love the idea of building this community. I would

really like to discuss further presumably offline how we how we start to implement that u because and I love the overlap with the with the crypto community. I mean, I know very little

community. I mean, I know very little about crypto, but I've started to invest in crypto more in the last year or so, although I had started back in 2020.

>> Crypto loves Huberman by crypto will fund all kinds of Hubman and Hubman grad student, human disciple type things because risk capital that loves your style.

>> Great. Well, Huberman loves crypto because it's uh you know, early on a very very smart I I shouldn't name him.

Uh very successful entrepreneur um from the Bay Area, Stanford grad told me to start investing whatever in some percentage of my investable uh income in

crypto. And that was back in 2017. I

crypto. And that was back in 2017. I

didn't listen until 2020. But look, it's clear that that this is here to stay. In

the same way I feel it has a lot of semblance to like what we saw like these bros science bodybuilding communities all the I mean you know if we had a dollar for every woman let's just say

women who have no interest in lifting weights who is now injecting ompic or mjaro or asking about peptides um we'd be extremely wealthy so it these things the

>> whatever is crazy now is going to be in the main frame in in 5 to 10 years maybe less >> absolutely I breath work made the cut.

They just had to call it respiration physiology. We and others published some

physiology. We and others published some some clinical trials. Okay, meditation

now everyone knows if you actually take the time to meditate like has benefits you know it took so long and people were attacked viciously attacked mystics

counterculture kick I mean the whole and sometimes it's because of the merge of these things with kind of like drugs and sex and other things that can cause some like scandals and issues but or deaths

right but I think if we really step back we put on our rational minds for a moment people realize like there's there's great things to be pulled from these different communities including academic science, but that we've hit a

we've hit a roadblock now. We're really

at a at a place where we need the sorts of communities that you're talking about. We need high fluency, high

about. We need high fluency, high throughput mechanisms to fund and try things and and iterate. And I love it. I

I'm all on board. I didn't expect this is where the conversation was going to go, but I'm super excited.

>> Amazing. Great. And we can take human into the physical world. You know, I I'll ask one last thing. This is just a maybe you're already on this and I haven't seen the pods on it and so on. I

I do think it might be interesting for you to look at um traditional Chinese medicine and traditional Indian medicine like Ayurveda and so on. So like

acupuncture Ayurveda yoga meditation and so and so forth. The reason I say that is for example with acupuncture um you know I wasn't like a believer in acupuncture because I was like an

alipathic you know western whatever kind of guy >> and then you know I had some like you know like wrist issue like my wrist was sore for you know because um like from

an old lacrosse injury or what have you and this is many many years ago like and then I uh I got some acupuncture and what was remarkable was the needles

were like in like my leg or something like that. And amazingly, I moved my

like that. And amazingly, I moved my like right arm or like right wrist like this and I could see that needle twin.

But if I move my left wrist, it didn't twin. So there was something to this

twin. So there was something to this concept of like the meridians or what have you. There is like a wiring diagram

have you. There is like a wiring diagram for the body. They are on to something, you know, >> and I was like, "Oh, wow. That's kind of interesting, right?" And so I feel like

interesting, right?" And so I feel like there's uh you know with the rise of China, the rise of India. There's that

seems like an interesting set of topics that I bet would expand your audience and people might be interested in looking at that. Something to think about.

>> Yeah. So um we've touched on it but probably too lightly and we should go, you know, full on into it. Um, and one of the interesting things about being a public health educator who's also a

scientist at a university like Stanford is I've had to be um, thoughtful about which topics I embrace when to establish, you know, >> it's less about quoteunquote. It's

credibility, but it's more to give people a sense of how I approach something. Totally. So, for instance,

something. Totally. So, for instance, um, so just a couple of of things within uh, the the area that you're talking about. I'm a in 2017 I started a

about. I'm a in 2017 I started a practice called yoga nidra where you lie down you do long exhale breathing. This

was developed in in India thousands of years ago. It literally translates to

years ago. It literally translates to yoga sleep. And the state of mind you're

yoga sleep. And the state of mind you're trying to accomplish um and that you soon learn to accomplish is one in which your brain is awake but your body is very relaxed. There's only one other

very relaxed. There's only one other state of being that that approximate that and that's REM sleep. When the

brain is very active and the body is essentially [clears throat] paralyzed.

It's now been shown in a lot of studies to improve learning and memory, improve basically reduce the latency uh to fall asleep or fall back asleep if you wake

up in the middle of the night even if you do this during the daytime. Um it's

been shown to improve outcomes for you know trauma etc. I modified it and called it something called non-sleep deep rest or NSDR. I removed the intentions. I removed any kind of

intentions. I removed any kind of mention of anything mystic or or the chakras etc. And I caught some heat from the traditional yoga nidra community understandably so. But the goal was when

understandably so. But the goal was when you call it non-sleep deep rest you immediately know what it is. Look, it's

not a nap because here's the thing. Naps

will disrupt your nighttime sleep. They

create sleep inertia. Non-sleep deep

rest and yoga nidra improve your sleep at night. Meditation is designed to

at night. Meditation is designed to relax you. NSDR, non-sleep deep breath,

relax you. NSDR, non-sleep deep breath, is designed to replenish your mental and physical vigor. And hypnosis is designed

physical vigor. And hypnosis is designed to modify your brain in a certain way.

This is just designed to let you self-direct your own relaxation while being awake. Has profound

being awake. Has profound positive effects on cognition, sleep, and everything else. But if I called it yoga nidra, people go like, "All right, that sounds kind of crazy. Does it

require meditation? I don't really Okay.

Acupuncture >> breathing >> acupuncture.

>> For many years, acupuncture was considered kind of like medicine by in the west.

>> Chufu Ma's lab at Harvard Medical School. Um Chufu is a is a very serious

School. Um Chufu is a is a very serious neurobiologist trained um and published beautiful papers in science, nature,

etc. on the neptive pain system. And as

his name suggests, he's Chinese. So at

some point he decided to explore what insertion of these different needles at different locations in the body would do for things like cytoine release,

inflammation, um norepinephrine, dopamine, and other catakolamines. What

he found was that different combinations of of entry sites of these needles create very different outputs from the different glands of the body, but that there's a systematic map. And so and

some of these have been published. I

didn't realize it's being published.

>> Yeah, in science and these were mouse studies, but they're starting to move into other areas and they use electroacupuncture. So, they'll do some

electroacupuncture. So, they'll do some stimulation of the nerves at those locations. But, you know, we know from

locations. But, you know, we know from experimental neuroscience that pressure uh can activate nerve pathways. So, I

absolutely believe that one of the the most important things for modern medicine to do is to take the maps of the the body from Eastern medicine. to

take the map. So even like this notion of the chakras, this idea that you know from our neck down to about our pelvis, we have our sympathetic nervous system, the sympathetic chain ganglia, chains of neurons that activate glands and other

features in our body, organs in our body through the deployment of different transmitters. And we know that at

transmitters. And we know that at different locations along the sympathetic chain ganglia, they intervate different organs. And here the acupuncturists and those that talk about chakras. Been talking for a long time

chakras. Been talking for a long time about opening up. They call them in yoga the bondas that they're essentially sphincters. You know, you don't just

sphincters. You know, you don't just have a sphincter in your your butt and your mouth, right? You have them in your throat. You have them all

throat. You have them all [clears throat] along your digestive tract. We're a tube. And so what labs

tract. We're a tube. And so what labs like Chufuzu's are starting to do is starting to say like what is the conglomerate of nerve and gland and um

and vascular uh features at different locations along the sympathetic chain ganglia how do those relate to activation of different uh releases of different hormones and again there's a

lot of work that needs to be done to unpack this but I think we can safely say that Ayurveda and eastern medicine have figured out systematic maps They don't know the mechanisms by which

insertions of needles at this site and that site create on average a particular outcome. Now you get people and I won't

outcome. Now you get people and I won't even name them because they're so obnoxious. Um you get certain people

obnoxious. Um you get certain people especially on X in the traditional medical community who love to um throw shade as the kids say on things like

Ayurveda because and they'll cite some instances in which you know some herbal like like lead um um contaminated turmeric killed a patient and like

that's the wrong way.

We should always be asking you know at the one end of of of brain plasticity meaning you have curiosity is brain plasticity that's the the window to brain plasticity at the other end you

have cynicism when you get you know if the more cynical you are the less plasticity you have so if I hear a cynical doctor I tune out it what I am absolutely convinced of based on the chufuma data and the experience with

yoga nidra which non-s sleep deep breaths and now the clinical trials in the US that are being done there everything we know about meditation, breath work, aka respiration physiology is now becoming a big thing. Even if

it's just about sleep apnea, is that we have to look at these systematic maps through the lens of what we understand about mechanism. And we are going to

about mechanism. And we are going to find a it's already a treasure trove of actionable advice that is very likely to

be mostly behavioral in nature. But also

the Chinese herbal thing is incredible in terms of the sleep science what they have access to in terms of of um the acupuncturists understand about ways to improve sleep. Spectacular.

improve sleep. Spectacular.

>> So and on and on and on. So I'm totally on board. But it we need really good

on board. But it we need really good scientists unpacking this stuff.

>> That's right. So basically now we've got a lot of people of Indian or Chinese descent that are also trained in western medicine that can be >> like chu. Exactly. That's right. And I

my view on this is also just as you said um like imagine somebody who was making a potion in the middle ages and they had 10 ingredients and the potion worked and

now from today's vantage point we would know that okay this one was the active ingredient other nine were just you know like the superstitious part or what have you right but the potion did work right

>> and so that's sort of how I think about a lot of this stuff where if it survived through the ages, there's like some underlying physics or biology or biochemistry or what have you, you know,

uh, neurohysiology, whatever you want to call it, that probably means the thing works.

>> And then you might be able to abstract out what the active ingredient is. For

example, you mentioned electroacupuncture.

>> Electroacupuncture. This is actually some of the most exciting work in the realm of psychedelics. There's a

laboratory up at UC Davis trying to remove the psychedelic experience from psychedelics. There is this theory that

psychedelics. There is this theory that what they do is they open brain plasticity in the weeks following the experience. And there's this question

experience. And there's this question whether or not the actual experience that you have on a psychedelic is necessary to activate the plasticity window. And so there's this whole

window. And so there's this whole category of drugs that's going to be developed which is basically extracting the uh the neuroplasticity inducing effects of psychedelics without the

psychedelic journey. Right? So these are

psychedelic journey. Right? So these are these are plasticity drugs without the mystic psychedelic experience. Now the

the people who are kind of anchored to the history of psychedelics will say no you need the journey you need the anxiety you have to like embrace the and you can say okay fine but like what about kids you're not going to send them into that what about people who have a

predisposition to psychosis or bipolar disorder you're not going to send them off to do psychedelics that would be completely uh irresponsible so we're starting to see like ketamine broke through ketamine works very similarly to

PCP it's a dissociative anesthetic works on the NMDA receptor but when it was PCP everyone was like terrified Ketamine is different but similar enough. So you

know it's sort of like Monaro bodybuilding peptides. It's like you

bodybuilding peptides. It's like you know acupuncture like where the re the naming is critical. It's funny even the addition of electro to acupuncture >> makes it a completely different beast to

a lot of people just because of our bias towards like devices in the west. So

yeah, I mean once again, Apology, I would just say you're you're definitely peering into the future on this and I love that you're parting the veil on it and inviting people in. I'm I'm totally

on board. Totally on board. And I don't

on board. Totally on board. And I don't say that lightly because a lot of things where people like, let's build a device, but I'm like, it's just like one more piece. It's not the the thing that's

piece. It's not the the thing that's really going to move everybody forward.

So I'm because you're talking about changing the whole community framework around medicine and healthcare. So, I'm

I'm totally on board.

>> Amazing. Great. And I'm looking forward to working with you. Let's discuss

further offline and I'll put pull put together a spec. And uh thanks for coming on the podcast.

>> Great. Yeah. I can't wait to eventually meet in person. Come here. You're

invited here anytime to check out my my uh you know >> human lab. This is the other Huberman lab. There's the one at Stanford.

lab. There's the one at Stanford.

There's the one at uh on that is the podcast. And then there's the one I'm

podcast. And then there's the one I'm sitting in right now. Yeah. Amazing.