Anthropic Eng Leader And Ex-Senior Director at Meta On Microsoft vs Facebook, Career Learnings

In a world where you can be anything, be kind.

>> This is Fiona Fun. She grew to a senior director by rising through the ranks of Microsoft and Meta. And today she supports the cloud code team at Enthropic. And I asked her for

Enthropic. And I asked her for everything she learned along the way.

What are the things that stood out to you that's different between Microsoft and Facebook?

>> Definitely [music] speed came to mind.

Oh my gosh, a sprint last a week. Like

usually a sprint for me was like four weeks. Was there ever a time where you

weeks. Was there ever a time where you received feedback and it really changed your career?

>> Looking back, that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at.

>> Here's the full episode. [music]

Let's say there's some project, it's going to be really impactful, but team health is going to take a hit or vice versa. How do you make those calls?

versa. How do you make those calls?

>> Oh, that's a really good one. We had

quite a few of these in the Facebook marketplace days. I I would say um

marketplace days. I I would say um recognizing when a moment is really such that it's almost ex existential. So

Facebook marketplace I would definitely remember we had a couple of you know lockdowns or or war rooms where it really became wow we really needed to focus like make sure and actually that's one thing I like about lockdowns or war

rooms. It allows team to focus focus on what it is that we were really setting out to do and making sure we're focused on doing that really well. Um, but it does come at a cost to team morale. So,

I my advice is really have those deliberate trade-off discussions with with with the team and leadership. Like

I I think look looking back that's probably one thing I wish I'd done better at that in the early marketplace days in some of those war rooms. I wish

we were also um yeah just even more up like we took a very aggressive goal for for I forgot if we called it lockdown or rural room because we change a team name names after a while but we took a very

aggressive growth goal so we weren't going to exit until we hit a certain growth number and looking back I think that like then that could have been like and and that wararmum actually went on

for like a really long time if I had the time machine to to do it all over I probably would have like taken a look at that and be much more realistic of how long that was going to take. Discuss

like you know the the you know like morale and team health of the team and then just be very upfront with the team of hey we're going to go on this you know journey together but this is how long we you know we we think it's going

to take >> I mean when I think of war room I think of yeah everyone's in a big room and it's for maybe a week for a launch or something like that. How long was that

war? Oh my gosh, it felt like at least 2

war? Oh my gosh, it felt like at least 2 months and that was what I mean. We took

a growth goal, but I think at the time we were like, well, maybe it's a couple of, you know, fixes that we had to do.

There was so many lessons learned. I

still remember in that war and we launched 75 experiments at one time, too, when we were trying to and so and we were in a literal like there was a room in Menlo Park and a room in in

Seattle. Um, but I think that one no one

Seattle. Um, but I think that one no one knew we going into we didn't realize it was going to, you know, take us that long. So that was definitely a lesson

long. So that was definitely a lesson learned.

>> At some point in your your career at Microsoft, you became a manager of managers. I'm curious like what is the

managers. I'm curious like what is the like the big pitfall that maybe you experienced or maybe like growing pain when you went from a frontline manager to someone who's managing others.

>> It kind of like goes back to that partnership. Um actually I will share my

partnership. Um actually I will share my story. The first time I supported

story. The first time I supported managers or became manager of managers I guess was with with two different managers. one uh was manager for

managers. one uh was manager for Typescript team and I they you know they are brilliant brilliant engineers still probably one of the best compiler engineers I've ever worked with and so I remember right in the beginning I'm like

hey it's like like we were always like collaborating as a partnership what what are the things you're really strong at what are the things I'm good at and how do we divide and conquer so I would say that's maybe one thing that's unique of

when you start supporting managers and managers like um they are also going to have additional skill sets that's not just IC skill sets also manager skill sets. So it's even more opportunity to

sets. So it's even more opportunity to figure out how you both can complement each other and and uh help each other where it's most needed. So that was one really good uh you know like just new

approach that was it was it was new compared to supporting um all IC's. I

would say the other one that becomes even more important is building that trust but verify muscle because there's a lot of trust like you know as as managers we have a lot of responsibilities leading teams and uh

but making sure that you know cuz I think sometimes you might also hear advice of oh delegate so it could scale up if you delegate too much but don't do the trust and verify you you lose touch with with a project a little bit too

much so finding that right balance um of of and and and some of that comes from experience but also making sure encourage that really transparent conversation with folks you support like

to to all managers one thing I ask for is um please you know like let's have fast feedback with each other but also let's be always super transparent about what's going out well and what's not going well like you know that meme of

the the dog holding the coffee cup in a room of five this is fine that's my nightmare of of if something's like really that I remember once I was supporting someone I'm like >> hey how are things going and and you know they're like oh it's fine I'm like

oh my gosh I'm not doing fine I'm impressed that you're doing fine.

So, but it starts with just cuz if we can actually discuss, you know, things that are like, you know, hard to really need help, that's how we can actually solve it for a team versus the this is fine dog meme.

>> You mentioned to be a good manager, you should enjoy growing others or mentoring others. And I'm curious, now that you've

others. And I'm curious, now that you've done it for so long, >> do you have any tips on how to mentor others? I would start it with just a

others? I would start it with just a really explicit conversation with your mentee of what they're looking for in the relationship like so for example after 3 months of mentoring what does success look like to them or after 6

months what does it look like um just so that then it's good effective use of time for for you both I would also say another tip is there's a difference between mentoring and coaching and sometimes making sure you have that

explicit conversation to see what the other person's looking for so in mentoring for sure you're like listening and trying to dispel helpful advice place. Um, in coaching, you're actually

place. Um, in coaching, you're actually acting as a mirror for the other person to help them discover the answers within themselves. So, thinking about those two

themselves. So, thinking about those two different modes as well could help.

>> I see. Yeah, that's one thing I was curious is how much of it do you feel like should be driven by the mentee versus the mentor?

>> I I honestly the most effective mentoring relationships, it comes from that goal being set by the mentee. Uh

and for sure the mentor can help with like life experiences or even advice of different resources. But uh for all the

different resources. But uh for all the folks out there looking for mentoring relationship, I would say set really explicit goals for what it is that you're looking to uh receive out of the mentoring relationship.

>> If you were to give advice to IC's on like what's the best thing you can do in oneonone's um what would that advice be?

I would say save status reporting and all that for some asynchronous form if you know like you know here in anthropic it's slack and and uh so it could be a slack message or I like to create a

one-on-one doc that is a living doc between both of us so that any async update we can just put in there. I would

say save the actual one-on-one time for any conversations you want to have.

Whether it's you're curious about learning about something new or you think, hey, it's a good opportunity for me to, you know, like uh dig a little bit deeper into the work that I'm doing with my manager cuz there might be some interesting product conversations.

Whatever it is, I would save the one-on-one time for those live conversations and anything that's status reporting. Um, you know, you can feel

reporting. Um, you know, you can feel free to use the asynchronous forms of communication. Yeah, I think I I hear

communication. Yeah, I think I I hear that a lot, but I still think a lot of people do status reports anyways and 101 ones. Um, so going into um working at

ones. Um, so going into um working at Facebook at the time, what's the story behind you leaving Microsoft and joining Facebook?

>> So, definitely I've had a lot of friends that was really really enjoying Facebook and and they're great engineers and and uh but there was always something I really wanted to finish at Microsoft. So

um you know like whether it was visual to editor or debugger. The last project I was working on was JavaScript and TypeScript. So I really cared about you

TypeScript. So I really cared about you know being there with the team to to get Typescript 1.0 out the door. Um but then I got a ping from Facebook uh in late

2014 from actually who ended up you know being my first manager at Facebook. We

worked together on Visual Studio and he's like, "Hey, I'm noticing people buying and selling products on Facebook groups and we're thinking of building a product around it and we're going get out of here. I'm in one of those groups." It was amazing experience. The

groups." It was amazing experience. The

first time I made meaningful new connections cuz in those days, Facebook for me was more about reconnecting with high school friends or co-workers. I

never created any new connections.

Um, but I told him, but I really wanted to, you know, be with a team to to help, you know, finish Typescript 1.0. But

that was like the like that was one big draw to Facebook. It was just this dream of enabling something totally different from dev tools but the dream of enabling

commerce on Facebook. Um just because I I really like there were three things I really believed in in that kind of starting with COC commerce because I'm I'm I'm very missiondriven. So in those

days I was passionate about wow if we can enable the style of commerce number one we're very fortunate in tech you know we can afford most things new and probably deliver it in 6 hours like 24

hours is not even fast enough most of the world isn't like that and a difference of $5 or $10 can be a difference of can I afford it or can I not um you know most folks can't afford

things new like or folks may not be able to afford things new and buying them used would be a way um to be able to afford that was one the second was environmentalist at heart. I feel like there's all these goods in the world.

It'd be great if I can be help work on a platform that enables those goods to get their second, third or fourth life. And

the last one's just supporting small businesses. I really love local small

businesses. I really love local small businesses. I feel like they're the

businesses. I feel like they're the lifeblood of any community. So having a platform that enables someone to kickstart a business without then have without, you know, first time to get a brick and mortar store I was really

passionate about. So that was all the

passionate about. So that was all the mission. And so that was one big draw to

mission. And so that was one big draw to join you know then Facebook in 2015. The

other was I was by this point at Microsoft 11 and a half years and I felt oh yeah I've become you know reasonably proficient and and being a Microsoft

engineer in the Microsoft stack but I realized if you take me outside of that bubble there were so many things I didn't know. And so part of it too was

didn't know. And so part of it too was also doing um wanting to just make sure how I can learn to be an effective engineer when I'm you know not within the safe cocoon of the Microsoft

ecosystem >> after you got to Facebook um and experience the culture for a bit.

Curious like what are the things that stood out to you where you saw that's different between Microsoft and Facebook? There were things that were

Facebook? There were things that were definitely similar like work with really great people, people really passion about what they're doing. Uh definitely

speed came to mind. So um Facebook Marketplace just operated. We were doing weekly updates at the time with the first version. It was actually on

first version. It was actually on dubdubdubfas.com. So I remember there

dubdubdubfas.com. So I remember there were weekly updates. I remember going, "Oh my gosh, a sprint last a week." Like

usually a sprint for me was like four weeks at, you know, on Visual Studio.

back then I thought that was already a short time compared to you know where it started. So definitely speed. Facebook

started. So definitely speed. Facebook

also felt much smaller to me back then especially coming from Microsoft. So

there used to be this poster on the wall that says nothing at Facebook is somebody else's problem. And I really love that culture. It was no matter your role if there was you know a problem

everybody leaned in to help. And so that was something I really really loved and appreciated. When you eventually left

appreciated. When you eventually left Meta, I saw that there were, you know, you write this badge post and hundreds of people are are kind of saying the reason why they enjoyed working with you

and I noticed several patterns of things that you had done where, you know, many many dozens of people were saying, I really like that particular part of working with you. So, I'd love to go on

each of these and kind of ask you your thoughts on them. So, the first one is on dog fooding. Um, a lot of people are saying they really appreciated you being a great partner and reporting problems

in the product and using the products.

So, I'm curious why do you do dog fooding as much as you do? And, you

know, why is it important?

>> Oh, I love it's one of my favorite topics. So, um, as I mentioned, my first

topics. So, um, as I mentioned, my first job out of college was using Visual Studio to build Visual Studio. So, and

I'm really grateful that I got to experience that. And I think that's

experience that. And I think that's where I've learned, oh wow, yeah, I'm going to use a product every day that I'm building. So that's where that

I'm building. So that's where that initially came from. And I feel it really gave like not only empathy for what our users are going through, but it really gives you a good pulse of the product. Plus it was easy on VS cuz

product. Plus it was easy on VS cuz you're using VS to build VS. Um, but then I guess I carried that over uh to Facebook Marketplace. I remembered our

Facebook Marketplace. I remembered our first test launch was in the Seattle area and uh also Hawaii. And I

remembered I would have a pile of things that usually we would have, you know, donated and my husband was getting so annoyed like, why do we sell this puff?

I'm like, no, I need good inventory for me to sell on Facebook Marketplace. And

that was where actually was super rewarding to not only in terms of using the product and gaining insights, also just inspiration from, you know, meeting users of Facebook Marketplace and and seeing that what you do makes a

difference. So I think that just kind of

difference. So I think that just kind of carried throughout. So then yeah when I

carried throughout. So then yeah when I was on RL it was a lot of dog fooding of our VR quest devices or I remember when we were first starting up Rayban stories

which now became Rayban meta it was actually during co so then it was a lot of uh dog fooding you know devices from home um but yeah like I and I think definitely as a manager you don't get to

code you know every day or nearly as often as as one would like but dog feeding the product that's what enables you to experience what it is that your team is working on. And I like to think

of it as my maker time. So, for example, in my last role working on um VR VR product with Horizon OS, yeah, like anytime I was able to help us debug some

hard to repro issue, I was that was my maker time and I felt it was my little way to contribute to the quality of the product. Plus, I don't know why the way

product. Plus, I don't know why the way my house is built, I was always able to repro certain floor height bugs and I was really happy at being able to, you know, get those logs.

>> I noticed something different, too, when a manager or a leader dog foods um kind of adds some some urgency to the bugs as well. So, there might be some thing that

well. So, there might be some thing that everyone kind of knows about, but it kind of gets lost. But then, you know, when you or or Bos or someone says, "Hey, this thing's broken. I can't use

this. Everyone it's a se basically, you

this. Everyone it's a se basically, you know, people are fixing it. So I yeah, it feels like engineering leaders can kind of like focus people on on what matters.

>> I I would say that's also the thing I get the most feedback on when I anytime I join a new team even like including Instagram like I would just get outreach from an to go oh it's awesome that

you're using our product and you you know you care about what we do. So, I

also think as leaders it's a great way to build, you know, relationship and rapport with um your overall team.

>> Do you have any tips on how to dog food given you're so prolific?

>> By the way, I love that on Facebook we still have this X Meta product feedback group. So, I'm still posting on that.

group. So, I'm still posting on that.

So, thanks in advance, Meta, for responding to my feedback post. Um, I

would say like find a way to integrate into your life that you know brings you joy. Now here I'm super excited because

joy. Now here I'm super excited because I'm using cloud code to build cloud code. First time I've been able to ship

code. First time I've been able to ship production software in a really long time and I forget how much fun it is to work on code and ship it and be able to see you know customer feedback. Um so

here it's kind of easy again because you know it's just part of my day job. But I

would say for example when it was uh working on VR thinking about what is it that I really enjoy in life and finding a way to incorporate that in VR. So for

example, what I love to use the VR headsets was um one was working out. So

supernatural. I love love love that experience. But the other one was

experience. But the other one was opposite end of the spectrum, super couch potato. I love to watch movies uh

couch potato. I love to watch movies uh and knit while I, you know, so I would like to like, you know, knit and watch movies while I'm wearing the VR headset.

And those are just things that I enjoy and and bring me joy. So it makes dog fooding even more enjoyable and less of a chore. Um or it shouldn't be a chore.

a chore. Um or it shouldn't be a chore.

I think when it becomes a chore, that's when you're like, "Oh, this is um you always want to try to keep it fun and engaging." Um, but I would say to

engaging." Um, but I would say to leaders too, another effective way to dog food is do product sessions with your team. So on my last team in VR, we

your team. So on my last team in VR, we would do every Friday, me, my PM partner Carmen, and my design partner Andreas, we would hold these uh almost like

leadership dog fitting sessions of any feature that we think is about ready to ship. We put on the headset and then

ship. We put on the headset and then give really fast feedback. So

incorporating dog feeding that way also allows you to give really quick feedback to your team as well.

>> Another thing that I saw like dozens of people saying is there were uh a lot of PMs that were saying I really enjoyed working with you or directors of PM or

uh various other PMs. And so I'm curious what's your tip on as an leader you know how to work well with product management? Ooh. Uh, I would say, oh my

management? Ooh. Uh, I would say, oh my gosh, I I was really fortunate at Meta to work with so many amazing PMs. Um, really starting initially to go, hey,

overall as our group, right, like as a leadership group, what are we really setting out to do? And, uh, where do we each bring the strengths? Because

there's always going to be more work than people. And so with product like,

than people. And so with product like, you know, with my PM partners being up front going, okay, I I got this and you got that like that whole divide and conquer was great. I think all the PMs I work with also appreciated that I did

use the product a lot. So, a lot of our one-on- ones would also be just riffing on product discussions and and so I think that also really resonated uh with my PM partners.

>> I see. So, another value of dog food.

>> That's right. [laughter]

>> I see. And then I also saw just generally a lot of people calling out I I've I've seen a lot of badge posts at this point, but an unusual amount of people calling out kindness uh and like

in the culture of the orgs that you build. And I also saw that you wrote

build. And I also saw that you wrote about kindness as well. I'm curious like your thoughts on kindness in engineering orgs and the value of it.

>> Oh, I love it. Yeah, I think my my last bullet in my badge post was in a world where you can be anything, be kind, >> right? It it probably comes from I

>> right? It it probably comes from I remember during COVID I mean during that time I was working on AR and VR operating systems. We were trying to ship Quest 2 during COVID. We were

getting incubating like Ray-B band stories um and getting ready to ship that too. It was just everybody

that too. It was just everybody especially when you work with devices and you don't have an office or a lab that you can get to as easily or you can't have firmware engineers next to

software engineers next to electrical engineers to debug. Everybody really did so much uh to make those products happen. But with co everybody was also

happen. But with co everybody was also going through a lot at home. So, I think that was when I I really and I remember personally for me where it really struck home was for me one-on- ones are really

important. and I always want to try to

important. and I always want to try to make them and my grandmother uh was living in Canada in an assisted living facility and because of co I couldn't travel to to go visit her and they they

actually no one could you know go into the nursing facilities during that time and so the only way to have time with loved ones in that nursing home was FaceTime but they were also super

strapped on you know uh nurses and helpers and so there are very few slots that you could get a FaceTime slot where you know someone can go in with an iPad and you never knew knew what when it would happen. And I remembered I

would happen. And I remembered I literally my aunt messaged me an hour before to go, "Okay, we got a FaceTime slot with grandma, but it was going to be with one of the one-on ones I was supporting." And I felt really bad to

supporting." And I felt really bad to say, "Hey, I'm so sorry last minute. I

knew we were going to discuss all these important things, too, cuz we were both looking forward to it." But I said, "My grandma, I get this FaceTime slot with her. Is it okay for us to, you know,

her. Is it okay for us to, you know, cancel?" I remember him saying, "Oh,

cancel?" I remember him saying, "Oh, yeah, sure. No problem." And I think for

yeah, sure. No problem." And I think for him it was he probably didn't even think of that as an act of kindness. Like for

him it was but for me it had such amazing impact like more than probably he would have known cuz I was really struggling with do I chat with grandma or cuz I never want to cancel a one-on-one.

So that was kind of when it started. And

so it comes from everybody's probably going through a lot in their lives. We

never know what somebody is going through. And so and and work is we're

through. And so and and work is we're all trying to, you know, like do our best and and trying to do epic things which are not going to be easy. So yeah,

always thinking about in in a world where you can be anything, be kind. Just

cuz we're all going through things that you you know, like none of us have have an idea about.

>> Transitioning to your your experience at Anthropic, I'm curious what excited you about anthropic over all the other options and why did you join? Oh, so I

was, as you could tell, I'm a still a big VR fan. So, I actually really loved working at Meta and um at on VR uh on Horizon OS. And so, I wasn't even

Horizon OS. And so, I wasn't even looking for a new adventure. So, there

were no I guess the only option would have been join anthropic or stay uh working on VR.

Yeah, cuz I I was really happy working with amazing people, working on a product I'm really passionate about. So,

I feel very lucky about that. And so

yeah, internally I was also using DevMate underneath I think it was a sonnet model to to build some tools to help out at work. And so I saw firsthand

how this is just transformative. And I

think at first you might hear about it on the news, but until you experience it, it's not like a future thing. AI f

it's it's already here. It's already

changing how we work. I was always very passionate about the space, but it was still hard for me to say farewell to Meta. And uh but it was just the more

Meta. And uh but it was just the more and more people I talked with at Anthropic, I was really drawn to how missionoriented everyone was. It

actually reminded me of one reason why I joined, you know, Facebook and Facebook Marketplace back in 2015 and and uh yeah, being that environment where everybody is so mission aligned

and really and allin just to to make sure we, you know, can build AI that benefits humanity with safety first. I

was just really impressed with that mission orientedness and it really appealed to I love working on teams where everyone's mission driven and one team mentality. Um so that was yeah like

team mentality. Um so that was yeah like uh that was probably the the biggest draw for why then I I said farewell to Meta and joined Anthropic.

>> When you started at Facebook it was very missiondriven. Did the culture change

missiondriven. Did the culture change over time when you were at Facebook or Meta?

I think over time the culture definitely and and by the way I think culture does change because it's a living breathing thing. I used to give these you know

thing. I used to give these you know Facebook AMA boot camp talks and I said remember culture is not just a poster on a wall it's it's through your actions.

So definitely and and it makes sense like as as Facebook grew I think culture change. I would say in terms of the the

change. I would say in terms of the the missiondrivenness there were still folks that are very passionate about what um folks do like so for example everybody around VR really wanted to make VR

successful. So that theme was still

successful. So that theme was still there and I think it's always important to um yeah go back to hey what are you passionate about? Actually, this I

passionate about? Actually, this I remembered I started feeling this way.

It was around 2017. A lot of boot campers uh would, you know, uh ask me when I would take the Facebook Seattle shuttle in those days, hey, I'm a boot camper. Can I chat with you, get you

camper. Can I chat with you, get you some advice? I'm looking for which team

some advice? I'm looking for which team to join? And a lot of it was just which

to join? And a lot of it was just which team do you think I can have the most impact? And and I remember saying, hey,

impact? And and I remember saying, hey, but what are you passionate about? You

join to do something because there's something you're passionate about or some mission you believe in. And and so that's why I think it's always important to think about yeah what is that passion or or what is the mission one is passionate about.

>> If you could have both it's a no-brainer like a team where there's impact and there's passion.

>> But if you had to make the tradeoff like you know one versus the other and you're advising someone who's joining a company what would you say like how to navigate that? So like a less impactful role but

that? So like a less impactful role but you're really passionate or >> you know it's extremely impactful but you're like I don't really want to >> you know actually I would say have that

honest conversation with with yourself.

And so um with one-on ones I like to uh anytime I'm supporting someone new. I

mentioned I like to ask them, hey what do you look for in a manager partnership? What's worked well? What

partnership? What's worked well? What

hasn't worked well? Another tool I use is then I ask, "Hey, what's important to you?" And and what what's motivating to

you?" And and what what's motivating to you? Why? And there's no right answers

you? Why? And there's no right answers or wrong answers. But I use that to learn what is important to someone. Um

because it's different for everyone cuz so for a person it might be the really I really want an impact or I really want to learn or I really want to work with great people. like just making sure

great people. like just making sure you're sharing that with your manager so that um you're not either guessing what's important to the other person when it may or may not be important.

>> So you've been onboarding at Anthropic for 2 months at this point. I'm curious

is there any interesting insights in your onboarding or things that really stand out to you?

>> Ooh. Uh definitely I talked so much about mission like so before I joined everybody that I met in the interview loops were great and you do wonder wow is everybody truly this mission driven

or is it you know like a tagline starting from day one on boarding you see oh yeah being uh missiondriven to build AI that benefits all of humanity

with source is this big responsibility that's really on top of mind for everyone so that was really like it it definitely was okay yeah this is core more part to the culture and DNA and and

not just a slogan. Uh so that definitely stood out. I would say joining uh Claude

stood out. I would say joining uh Claude Code the the speed I I mean I I thought I remember marketplace days where I felt we moved really fast like Claude Code I

mean it could be a time warp or maybe like it just feels even faster.

So that speed of iteration of and and we're really fortunate on cloud code because anthropic uh you know everybody you know ant foods cloud code so we have a really really high you know high

amount of like feedback and so that loop of I have an idea let me build let me launch internally okay let me get feedback from ant foodters okay now let's launch to public and continue with

the feedback um that like rapid iteration loop has has really impressed me and it's definitely something that's top of mind for as we grow our team to to keep up that agility and speed.

>> Coming to the end of the the interview, I I want to ask you a few career reflections. Was there ever a time where

reflections. Was there ever a time where you received feedback and it really changed your career? And if so, what was the the feedback?

>> I would say actually the one of the most pivotal feedback I ever received was how to receive was feedback on receiving feedback. So, we're engineers, you know,

feedback. So, we're engineers, you know, we like to set break points and debug and and uh earlier on at meta and you know, when someone would give feedback, I'm like, "Oh, I definitely want to get

better. Let me ask more questions so I

better. Let me ask more questions so I could debug the situation and and replay the situation and and figure out how I can improve." And someone gave me really

can improve." And someone gave me really good feedback of, hey, when when someone cares enough to come to you for constructive feedback, it's already uncomfortable enough. Make sure that

uncomfortable enough. Make sure that that first session you're just in readonly mode just to learn and listen.

You may have questions but save it for another day because it's already uncomfortable for that person. You don't

want to anyone to ever feel like they have to justify the feedback. And so

just pay attention listen and that night like even if you have questions holding until the next day like give yourself time to sit with the feedback and reflect. And that's

been like some of the best advice because that really changed my approach of, you know, how to give and receive feedback.

>> And then last question is if you could go back to when you just entered the industry and give yourself some advice, what would you say? [laughter]

>> I'm going to say enjoy the ride. Like

you know, Michael Abbrash used to say these are the good old days. So I would say yeah, enjoy the ride and these are the good old days. Cuz you look back and everything happens so fast. like um

sometimes you you don't look back and really enjoy the moment as you're living it.

>> Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, Fiona. I really appreciate it.

>> Thanks for coming by. It's awesome

catching up again.

>> Thanks for listening to the podcast. I

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