ARC Raiders with Bence Pajor and Olof Strömqvist

Heat. Heat.

[music] [music] >> [music] >> Hey, thanks for making it to episode two of Audio Logs. This week, our guests are Bence and Olaf of Embark Studios, and

we'll be chatting with them about the amazing audio of Art Raiders.

We first explore how they got into the games industry and how that was perhaps a little different uh back in the early 2000s. We talk a bit about their past

2000s. We talk a bit about their past working at EA DICE on a bunch of Battlefield games before quickly jumping off to their experience joining Embark Studios. They both shared a lot about

Studios. They both shared a lot about the early days at the studios and how starting from scratch gave them the opportunity to build their tools specifically for the kind of games they wanted to make. At this point, we really

start to dive into the making of our creators and Ben and Olaf's philosophy of creating and supporting the simulation as they call it through their emphasis on Foley and field recorded

assets to their highly systemic approach at game audio development. We discuss

how creative ideas inspired tech innovation. We also chat about how they

innovation. We also chat about how they collaborated with the rest of the dev team and how they managed to deliver a highly detailed and ambitious AAA multiplayer experience all the while

keeping the sound team small and agile.

So that's it. Hope you enjoy our chat with Ben and Olaf.

Heat. Heat.

Welcome to Audio Logs. Thank you, Ben.

Thank you, Olaf, for joining us today to talk about Art Raiders. How are you guys doing?

>> Thanks for having us.

>> Yeah, thanks for having us. It's the I think it's our first uh real podcast on the subject.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, >> yeah.

>> Wow. Well, we're we're honored here to be talking to you about this then.

That's >> Yeah. So, it feels great and and a bit

>> Yeah. So, it feels great and and a bit nervous, of course.

>> Same here. So, you know, we can we can share that. We can live it together. I

share that. We can live it together. I

think >> it sounds good.

>> Either amplify or nullifies the >> Yeah. Yeah. can cancels out, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. can cancels out, you know.

>> Yeah, it should, right?

>> Um, yeah, you know, we'll we'll get into all the sort of like embark studios, we'll get into art creators because obviously we have a ton of questions cuz the sound is amazing. And I think and

you know, we're not just the only ones who think that. I think when you go online and you see people talking about it, people who are not audio people, they seem to always point it out. So, I

feel like there's plenty to talk about with the game. Uh, but you know, before we get into that, um, if you want, it'd be great to kind of get people to know who you two are a

bit. Um, you know, I know you both

bit. Um, you know, I know you both worked at DICE. That's kind of the extent of, you know, how much I know about you guys, but yeah, you know, the short story, the long story. Yeah. Feel

free to um feel free to just talk about your your background and how you got to where you are now.

Yeah. Yeah.

>> Uh yeah. So my name is Ben Por and um

yeah. So my name is Ben Por and um at the moment I'm I'm

doing uh the sound stuff on Arc Raiders.

Um and I started out working at DICE. That was my

first sound design job. Before

that I used to work as a musician and and all kinds of work. Um so

I started there without knowing anything about sound design really. I I had uh recorded

design really. I I had uh recorded instruments a lot of course uh but I never thought about sound design.

So that was a completely new thing for me and I wanted to work with games because I was fed up. I was doing a lot of like music

fed up. I was doing a lot of like music commercial and and stuff like that and it felt it felt so bad to um make the music for

the bit when people want to leave the television.

Uh, so I just thought I I need to do something else and I was into games since I was a kid. So

I um yeah, I I contacted games companies and um and DIY had an ad out.

It's that's an insane coincidence, I think. Uh and they were making

think. Uh and they were making Battlefield 2 Uh, and uh, that was a PC title

and I just applied for the job and and I took a bunch of interviews and and then I passed them and then I had to do uh,

tests and it was basically just a sheet of uh, like I don't know 30 or 40 sound

effects like big monster, a car driving by. It was like stuff like that. Uh

by. It was like stuff like that. Uh

someone reloading a weapon, etc., etc. And I just uh rigged a mic at home and started doing a bunch of foley work. Uh

I didn't really have a clue how to to do it. I just

it. I just Yeah. Like bought me watermelons that I

Yeah. Like bought me watermelons that I stabbed with a knife. It was I borrowed a car and and I and I I drove it around and a

friend of mine was hanging out the window trying to record the the the engine and uh it was crazy. I was

driving around in the middle of the night down in a harbor where I thought there were going to be no police because I had to do like skidding tires and uh stuff like that.

>> Wow. So

>> yeah, you you really did the the long and hard version to get the >> Yeah, because I didn't know that there were such a thing as a sound library. So

I just recorded everything >> and I I think I also like stole some sound effects from movies that I that I

queued up with a DVD player and >> it was really madness. I don't know how how I got the job. It's it's always so

fascinating to learn about the industry, you know, prior to what it is now where um like like you said, you know, you had no experience with sound design before

you even applied to the to the the job, which for jobs now is just like you I mean that that just just doesn't happen, right? Like those people who've never

right? Like those people who've never even thought about sound design, most likely they're not going to >> land a job get a job today. That would

be completely impossible. It feels like every title now is like you have five years of AAA experience like >> and have like a junior business.

>> What do people Yeah, exactly. You know,

like how do you start?

>> Yeah, you manage a team of 50 people.

[laughter] >> Yeah, it's a it's definitely a different kind of thing. I mean, now we have all these resources to sort of teach us how to, you know, get those car sounds and all that kind of stuff. And, you know,

it we have so much technology at our fingertips. Not that the technology

fingertips. Not that the technology wasn't great then, but you know things have changed since then. So I I find it always fascinating to learn about these these kinds of stories.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I mean after that I I I also had a maybe a I didn't know

I I had never worked in the like 8bit era or anything like that prior to I just came in on a PC title where memory was not really an issue anymore and so

on. So, I didn't even know about all

on. So, I didn't even know about all these tricks to save memory. And I

remember being frowned upon by other sound designers by putting like a full range long sound into the game. They

were like, "What are you doing?

>> It's a gunshot." Yeah. But it's like several kilobytes.

[laughter] >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and um Yeah. So I I you could definitely say I had fresh [sighs] I was a fresh person. Uh

so I just basically try I I started out recording everything I could and then we had a a sc sound library which we mix stuff from and and then it just off it

went from there basically.

>> Right. Yeah. Cool. So yeah, you were you were at DICE for quite some time. It

sounds like you you shipped a lot of battlefields.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah, I was there for more than 15 years. Uh and I I worked on

years. Uh and I I worked on all the Battlefield games from Battlefield 2.

>> Yeah. So there were a lot of Battlefield games.

>> Yeah. And I I feel like that's probably that's probably informed how you design sounds for our creators, which is, you know, we'll we'll get into that. There's

a lot of interesting stuff there.

>> Um, but maybe I will pass the mic to to Olaf to get to >> get an idea of where where you came from. Yeah. Uh I sort of had I don't

from. Yeah. Uh I sort of had I don't know like hobbyist music background and I also

also did an uh engineering a masters in engineering uh was my like education and when I was going to do my master's

thesis I tried to like find something that would be more fun than like regular engineering I guess. So um I yeah DICE were uh they were looking for someone to

do their master's thesis there. So,

uh, I got lucky and got that gig. And

then from there on, like, uh, Stefan, who's uh our >> creative director on, uh, on our

creators, um, he he asked me if I could, um, join later after I worked on the master's thesis to do handle dialogue on Bad Company one.

>> Right. Cool.

>> Malfit bad company one. So because I'm sort of I don't know sort of in between like uh techy skills and some audio skills. So uh I handled the dialogue on

skills. So uh I handled the dialogue on that game and also back company too and then moved more into sound design and tech

sound design and like all kinds of sound design stuff. Um worked on a bunch of

design stuff. Um worked on a bunch of Battlefields. Um Mirror SGE Catalyst as

Battlefields. Um Mirror SGE Catalyst as well.

>> Great. And yeah,

>> all the good stuff.

>> Worked there for 12 12 years or something before I left for Embark.

>> Cool. And

>> yeah, >> I mean hearing that, is that still what you do at Embark or did you specialize into something more engineering or more designy or

>> It's sort of all over the place in the sort of engineering and sound design.

Also music uh on the finals as well.

>> Okay. together with so me and Carl and other people as well. Um, making the music internally since season two or three or something like that.

>> Okay, >> cool.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> And Okay. I I mean it feels like it's a nice diving board to talk a bit more about Embark and sort of uh when you guys joined.

>> Can you shed a bit of light on that? M

>> yeah I think we had uh finished um we just finished uh Battlefield 5 and then some people had left to start

Embark and these were like some of the people that we work with quite a lot since before and I think we're I don't

know both sort of feeling like you know is should we um if you sort of take the take the leap and try something new after well in my

case like 12 years at EA DICE.

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> so that must have been >> it was a bit sorry >> well it must have been a a huge sort of change of pace to be at EA you know working on you know with lots of people

to a smaller studio. Um but that being said I actually don't know how big uh Embark Studio is studios is. Yeah.

>> I think when I joined I was the 40th employee. So we were pretty small

employee. So we were pretty small >> at that point and now I think we're like 400 or something. Are we?

>> Yeah. 350 or something.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

>> So it's pretty big now.

>> Pretty big.

>> Yeah. And I think when I joined I was employee number 30 something. I joined

two weeks before.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Okay.

>> So we were a really small team. We we

all fit into one room. I remember we had morning standups, the whole team in one room.

>> Right. In that room, that small room you're in now.

>> No, this is it was a different office.

It was like a >> an old bank building from the >> Well, like 15th century. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh.

>> Oh, wow.

>> It was pretty cool.

>> Fancy.

>> Yes. So, the the ceiling height was like this.

Everyone was so small in Sweden back then, >> right? [laughter] Or ways were like

>> right? [laughter] Or ways were like crooked and you couldn't >> I don't know, but you couldn't like change anything because it was like a sort of cultural heritage >> type thing, >> right?

>> So, we couldn't we didn't have any sound rooms. We just had like a >> a start very sort of echoey room and like headphones.

>> It's a oldest national bank building in the world.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. It's the first national bank building.

>> You said it was from what what year?

Like what? Um

>> 16 1641 or something.

>> Wow. They had banks back then. I didn't

know.

>> Yeah. [laughter] The first >> had one bank. Yeah. If they

bank. Yeah. If they

>> national bank, they probably had other banks.

>> Yeah. Probably other banks, but this was the first national bank, >> right? If they would have known that

>> right? If they would have known that you're you're making games in there now, I think they would have not understood what you were talking about.

>> Yeah.

>> But yeah, cool.

>> Stand up in the vault. That's Yeah,

sure.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so um Yeah. So you're not at that bank anymore. You got the the studio has

bank anymore. You got the the studio has moved to a bigger place. It sounds like >> bank. We moved to another bank.

>> bank. We moved to another bank.

[laughter] >> Love banks.

>> So we have vaults here as well.

[laughter] >> Interesting. Yeah. I don't know why we

>> Interesting. Yeah. I don't know why we ended up in banks but uh yeah [laughter] >> it was but it was a pretty crazy um like just moving from like having everything

organized like having you know signed libraries and studios and monitors and everything and like like working in the Frostbite engine which we knew inside

out at least audio wise and then you're like new engine >> right >> don't know like how does anything are we like we didn't know anything about

Unreal Engine. We didn't like have any

Unreal Engine. We didn't like have any sounds or we had like we didn't know anything. We didn't have anything. It

anything. We didn't have anything. It

was pretty >> Yeah. We started from like insane

>> Yeah. We started from like insane scratch. [laughter]

scratch. [laughter] >> We really had nothing. We didn't even have speakers or anything.

>> Yeah.

>> So, in the end, they bought us these headphones.

>> Uhhuh. Uh, so then we had headphones, uh, and then we could start work.

>> And then I think we had one pair of like a Logitech like 20 buck speakers. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> That's kind of a like a humble beginnings for you. I mean did you did you actively enjoy coming from let's say EA where you had resources you had Frostbite and all the tools that you

know internal tools of Frostbite and all that kind of stuff. Was it a cool experience to sort of like start you know start fresh? Was that was there an excitement to that or

>> Yeah, there was also like excitement and also like sort of anxiety as well like just realizing what you can't even do

this what how are you ever going to like >> those realizations were like the the limitations that as we perceived them um back then.

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> but also just like it was also pretty liberating when it's just was just the two of us then and it's like how do we want to >> deal with this aspect of the audio like

how do we want to do whatever like fully maybe we could try this.

>> Yeah.

>> How long ago was that?

>> Like basically you guys joining Embark >> uh 2019.

>> So 2019. So basically

>> April >> six years ago. Yeah. Con considering how alien it seemed the experience must have been of like going from frostbite and

the EA sort of like umbrella to going grassroots punk rock with like this engine that's like mystery box. It's

kind of impressive that the studio has managed to release two games in the span of six years.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, we haven't [laughter] released one.

>> Well, the Oh, yeah. Okay. Sorry. By the

time the interview goes live.

>> All right. just about releasing the second one, >> right? Yeah.

>> right? Yeah.

>> Um >> well, I mean it was uh really great from one aspect.

We had we were around when we designed the Frostbite. So we were uh we were

the Frostbite. So we were uh we were part of designing the Frostbite audio engine. So we had a long experience from

engine. So we had a long experience from from making engines. We also made the

Battlefield 2 engine and so we we had done engines before. Uh so

coming starting completely fresh was also a chance to get rid of all the old crap that was uh

hanging around. Uh when we worked in

hanging around. Uh when we worked in Frostbite, we had like several years of old stuff in the engine and now we could

completely focus on like okay now we don't have anything. So

let's start with the Foley system. What

do we what what are the absolute essentials that we want to do? And then

we started ideating on how to do that.

How to Okay, we have we are two people.

We're going to make a huge game and it's just the two of us. One is going to do tech and sound design and I'm too dumb

to do uh coding. So I I can do sound design and I can I can fiddle around in an engine. Uh

an engine. Uh so we also had an attitude of we have to make

everything systemic because we're not going to be able to sit there and and play sounds in a world or anything like

that. We have to do something that like

that. We have to do something that like how do you build basically a battlefield game with with two people? uh

and that was our starting point. So we

were really really really just focusing on super essential bits that we had learned

during these uh 15 20 years of like what makes a good sound experience and then we started to building only that and

Olaf you had done a you had done like scripting a little bit and coding plugins for Reaper, not plugins, script stuff,

>> and then you started coding and just got deeper and deeper and deeper in it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a we have like uh using our an extension that uses angel script uh in Unreal that we're using for like

scripting and coding a lot of different gameplay things and systems. So it's basically a like a car sharpish thing that sits on top of Unreal.

>> Mhm. Okay. And so you're building custom audio tools, audio specific tools for uh >> everything. Yeah.

>> everything. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like sort of if you call like gameplay audio integration things. Um

sort of not not necessarily like DSP level things, but more like >> functional.

>> Yeah. like uh

>> when should we play a sound, where should it play from like >> right >> all those kind of things. Um

>> how should we play it back?

>> Yeah. Based on and like trying to sort of get some kind of uristics from the world around you and and systemically determine which sounds should play and and those kind of things.

>> Yeah. Um, I mean, since we're on the topic of of of migrating from frostbite um to Unreal, uh, yeah, like I'm kind of curious, you

know, you're talking about, um, you're talking about working in Unreal, you're talking about not having the same kind of tools that you had in Frostbite cuz like myself, I've worked in

Frostbite in the past as well. There's a

lot of tools that have been built up through the years. Um, I'm just kind of curious when you went to Unreal, did you you stuck with the vanilla Unreal that you sort of added stuff to? I know

there's meta sounds that are happening now. Um, are you using metaounds? Like

now. Um, are you using metaounds? Like

what what does your Unreal situation look like?

>> It's uh vanilla Unreal. We don't use Weiss or anything like that. So, we have vanilla Unreal. Um, we're using mostly

vanilla Unreal. Um, we're using mostly like sound cues. Um, and we have some like a few meta sounds where we just

need that kind of functionality. I think

we're maybe at a engine release version right now where the performance isn't really like there's something when they they initialize or something that people

get angry when they [laughter] our audio coder is like what is this?

>> We can't really use meta sounds. Yeah,

>> we use them sparingly. Um then we have some custom DSP things going on uh made by u our audio programmer. Uh we have

some source effects things, some uh custom panner plugin uh inside of the native Unreal panner and we have uh some

custom like early reflection um tech and stuff like that as well and among other things. and also just some like u

things. and also just some like u multi- channelannel delay effects that are just more performant than the native ones. Uh so and saturations, transient

ones. Uh so and saturations, transient shapers etc. >> We we've tried to build uh like

a very smoke and mirrory acoustics uh stuff basically.

>> Nice. Yeah.

And then we combine that with uh asset switching a lot. So I think also initially when we started there were like there were no convolution reverbs

in Unreal Engine as far as I know in uh vanilla Unreal in 2019. I think they so like a lot of improvements showed up along the way and I think maybe even I

don't remember if like the submixes as they function now were around. I'm not

sure if they were either. So like I think we sort of some of the our like uh perceived you know limitations that we perceived in

Unreal Engine they were sort of unlocked along the way >> as well.

>> Right.

>> Um but >> I think we we could put a pin in this because I feel like we can chat more about this as we you know get to know Arc Raiders uh a bit more. Um maybe we

can just segue to that. I think uh if you can be great if you could just describe Arc Raiders for you know whoever may be listening to this they maybe they haven't played it themselves.

So if you could just describe what kind of game it is.

>> Yeah. So it's uh it is a uh extraction adventure shooter uh supposedly based on the website. No, but it's uh so it's uh

the website. No, but it's uh so it's uh you it's basically you go in uh you try to scavenge for materials and you try to get back out and get back to uh Esparans

Esparansa, your sort of home base where you can uh upgrade your um your quarters. You can uh complete quests for

quarters. You can uh complete quests for different traders and >> build Yeah. So build your character, build your um your sort of uh home den

within the future.

Um also maybe I should have mentioned that it's been like post-apocalyptic um uh setting unless that was I I even

think it's a post post apocalyptic setting.

>> Post post.

>> Yeah. where the world has uh come out of the apocalypse and is recouping.

So >> Mhm.

>> So it's uh it's not it's not many post-apocalyptic games are a bit uh hostile and grim in their appearances,

but this is not so much. Yeah, it's

meant to me world and uh >> an inviting uh place to to discover and uh >> Right.

>> Yeah. I mean the I think the the game is also about wandering around in this world and trying to understand

it. Uh,

it. Uh, and of course there are robots who roam the surface >> and the skies

>> for unknown reasons at this point.

>> Exactly.

>> But they are there and uh the the humans need to be careful on the surface uh but they

need to go there to gather things. So

what you are playing a raider. A raider is like a person who

a raider. A raider is like a person who dares to go to the surface to get things. So they run a bunch of errands

things. So they run a bunch of errands for the community uh below.

It's interesting juxtaposing adventure and this sort of like there is a narrative behind it that seems to be fairly strong. pairing this with the

fairly strong. pairing this with the extraction genre that's typically more about the gameplay and the there is a narrative but it's second I guess it's typically taking the back seat to

whatever the experience of playing it >> sort of resolves >> and >> yeah I would say that uh it's more about

>> collecting stuff and and being in this world and and uh participating in story lines if you wish otherwise you can just

uh roam around on the surface looking for stuff. Uh, which is Yeah, I I I think that's a great It's

not It's not [snorts] so super shooter focused. Um.

focused. Um.

>> Right. Right. And that makes sense with, you know, the well, at the time of this recording, the recent video that you've shared, uh, where you're just taking in certain environments. Um, it's that's

certain environments. Um, it's that's kind of integral to the the experience of playing this game is that you're you're in a place. And, you know, audio does so much storytelling um, in this

game. Like, I feel like I was watching

game. Like, I feel like I was watching some people play and they were just running through quarters. You don't see anything, right? You just see the

anything, right? You just see the quarters they're in and there's sounds happening. You know, there's the arcs,

happening. You know, there's the arcs, there's the other players that's telling a whole story, yet we see nothing. It's

all audio cues. Um, so yeah, these environments are are are they sound amazing. The distance um actions really

amazing. The distance um actions really communicate um to the player. And so

it's it's a very interesting world. Like

it's very cool. Um,

>> I mean based on that, I'm curious to know like how did the sort of like more I don't want to say narrative, but adventure side of the game inform how

you approach the use of sound and how the extraction because it feels like they can be complimentary, but they can also go in opposite directions sometimes given the fact that extraction is

typically more about giving all of the information and all this sort of like tiny minutia detail about other players whereabouts. and keeping a mystery at

whereabouts. and keeping a mystery at the same time, keeping thing obtuse. But

adventure is more inviting you to sort of like explore and make something that feels like it's more about the immersion in the world as opposed to the experience of being running around with

a gun and being afraid of head shot or something.

>> I I don't know. I mean, if they necessarily have to sort of go different like I think both of us were like immersion junkies like we're

>> so into I don't know I think things we get really excited when when you feel like oh now it actually sounds like it does when I walk in my garage or now it

sounds like the thing I heard at the like when when environmental sound or any sounds like when they sort of really click and gel and feel like they're actually

um that they're actually real. Yeah,

they're there. Then

>> I don't know, that's super exciting. And

I think if you want to get gameplay information as well and if those things sort of fit into into the same

sort of set of rules for how sounds behave, then you can sort of also decode >> more easily how >> like where is that person? is that

person like in there or like all all of those sort of information that you might glean from >> right >> from how sounds how the sounds uh the

nature of them um and I don't know don't know if it necessarily has to go >> yeah no you're right it sounds >> like the immersion and and the sort of extraction >> immersion is sort of like that I guess

common ground between spe some genres or I think some games we can go like more specific and in your case it's interesting because yeah, focusing on

the immersion sort of benefits both sides of the coin if you want to look at them separately because they both rely on immersion. So

on immersion. So >> yeah, I I think it's really a immersion and game play goes completely hand in hand. I think

hand. I think because we we want to make a game where you are completely immersed and you

really believe that the things you are seeing and hearing those things are really happening to you and

we want you to understand the world as you understand the real world. Uh, and when you walk the street, you see things, you hear

things, you get informed what's going on around you by seeing, but also hearing. I mean, everything

that's outside your your field of view, you hear them or feel the vibrations or whatever. And that's how we want the

whatever. And that's how we want the game to feel as well. So

if if someone is reloading a a gun around the corner, you would hear that in reality as well probably. And and we want you to

to just use your normal sensory systems to play this game as well.

>> That's super interesting. And um it's a great marriage of sort of aesthetic and function. Uh it's super cool. I'm kind

function. Uh it's super cool. I'm kind

of curious like because of that, do you did you find that a lot of maybe game designers that you were working with had a lot to say as far as like I don't know even attenuations cuz that's like we

think of attenuations we think that's oh that's an audio thing we think about attenuations but it seems like in a game like this >> um it's very it serves a very um

distinct game design function. So yeah

>> did you have a lot of back and forth with other disciplines about this kind of stuff? uh

of stuff? uh for everything. Uh

for everything. Uh so I mean if if if a if a designer makes something and they say this is this is a

thing that does this and and then we're we're looking at the concepts and we're discussing what is this thing? What kind of a thing is

this thing? What kind of a thing is this? Uh and then they say oh well it's

this? Uh and then they say oh well it's a it's this thing. It's really dangerous and uh it it does this and you should really stay away and you you need to

hear it when it when it does this. And

then we mostly try to come up with a sound that maybe fits that uh that thought of like this is a thing

that is really loud. Then we make a sound that feels like a loud sound and therefore you can also hear it over a

long distance. And then then we think of

long distance. And then then we think of what what could a sound be that you can hear over a long distance that also communicates this or that. Usually

there is something like that in reality and then we think of that and maybe then think like this really loud I don't know

alarm sound. How how are these really

alarm sound. How how are these really loud alarm sounds in reality? Well,

there usually maybe there has some air propellant or whatever. And then we try to think of that and model something and maybe record something that is like

that. And maybe we need to warp it a

that. And maybe we need to warp it a little bit into something else because it's something else in the game. But but we

try to stay super grounded. If if if the if it's a sound that could be recorded, then we try to record that sound and and use that because

as we said earlier, people are so used to understanding the world around them.

So if we can populate it with sounds that people understand without an explanation, then we're there. And then

you feel immersed because you recognize it from real life and you maybe have a bunch of uh other connotations that go

along with this sound that you also recognize uh and it induces certain emotions and then we can make use of

that. Even if we're making a sci-fi game

that. Even if we're making a sci-fi game doesn't need doesn't mean we have to

synthesize the sounds in it. Um, uh, if I could ask based on that, sounds like field recording to get this sense of immersion was a key component of the

process of making the sounds for the game. Uh, and also sort of like going

game. Uh, and also sort of like going back to the tech side of things, I was wondering when I was uh sort of watching gameplay and trying to hear I I was

trying to figure out the sort of techniques you use for spatialization and sort of like how do you make things sounds readable and good at a distance? Did you

guys use like rely more on sort of real-time processing with your custom tools or was it more of a we're going to use the asset that we recorded at that

distance or under the ground or above and like what was the approach for that sort of worldization of sounds? I guess

>> it's a mix of the things [laughter] you just said.

>> It's really a mix. Yeah,

>> we do a lot of recordings, but then we have to make the edges go away. Uh, and there we

rely on all the systems that Olaf have built. Uh there's also like sometimes we

built. Uh there's also like sometimes we like we we might if it's a sound that we know it's going to take place outside

then we might like post-process it with some exterior reverb like to the the wave assets themselves.

Uh so sometimes we do that and then we have like a real time acoustics things like early reflections and convolution reverbs that we select depending on like

how enclosed you are uh based on traces and stuff like that. Um, but then we also for some sounds we all have uh special like we have indoor recordings

of for instance guns like we we add guntails that are recordings of indoor guns. So we can make they can sound

guns. So we can make they can sound indoor regardless of whether you're indoor or outdoor. It doesn't rely on like listener centric reverbs. Uh, and

same thing with um like we have footsteps that are sound like they're indoor like those sounds that you really recognize like how they're you hear them all the time and

>> you hear gunshots.

>> Not gunshots but [laughter] >> but the footsteps like uh so we try to like help those out by um with actual recorded assets rather than

post-processing, >> right? Um,

>> right? Um, >> and we we post-process everything just to make them really blend together because you might have a recording that

sounds like this. You have another recording that's recorded in a maybe a slightly smaller room that than than the room you are portraying at the very

moment. And then we

moment. And then we we apply maybe some convolutional reverb on top of the recording just to stretch

it a little bit in that space that you are currently. Uh so it's really a blend

are currently. Uh so it's really a blend of uh recordings and these acoustic

plugins that we have built. And so

they they mostly serve to to make these uh recorded assets uh blend with each other in a way that you can't tell that it's

that it's just a recorded asset in a certain environment hopefully.

>> Yeah. To get

>> sounds convincing.

>> Yeah. Sounds feels very worldized. It

feels very like authentic and real. Um,

I kind of want to just maybe talk a bit about the arcs themselves because they're a huge huge part of the sound experience in this game. And you know, like I keep on mentioning, I watch

people playing the videos and they're talking about it. The arcs is is a huge one. I mean, it's a very as as soon as

one. I mean, it's a very as as soon as you you hear a sound coming from from it, it's very distinctive and people pick up on that right away and they feel the danger of it. So, I'm just kind of

curious like it seems like danger in general, the sound of danger is like a really important aspect in this game.

Did you have any sort of like philosophies going in or was it just sort of maybe in your heads but you never communicated it or did you, you know, write down like, hey, this is the sound of danger? Like, what does that

mean to you?

>> [sighs and gasps] >> At least I I think initially we were like, well, why would they make a sound when they are suspicious of something or why would they make a sound if they see

you or like now I'm going to go into com like why would they do that? But then we tried it anyway and it's like oh that's nice

>> like even though like it feels strangely gamey at first but then it I don't know it just works. Um,

>> I mean it sounds dangerous nonetheless.

I'm I'm kind of curious like um when it comes to sort of creating that pallet like what what were you thinking when it comes to like oh this is a dangerous sound. This is not like were there dos

sound. This is not like were there dos and don'ts to achieve that?

[sighs] >> No, I I don't know. We just we we just started out at one point and started experimenting and then I I used this for

most of the >> Oh, right.

>> Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's one of those monotone.

Yeah. Monotone duo. A little

>> little total sense now that you say that.

>> It was I have one another version in my in my room. Those are like partying gifts when we >> when we left Dice.

>> When we left Dice. [laughter] So, we had these two. So, we [gasps]

these two. So, we [gasps] >> But they can like with this thing, it can be pretty expressive and like uh how is it? Oh,

is it? Oh, >> yeah. And the little filters you can

>> yeah. And the little filters you can turn the knobs and and really get a nice uh >> you can get like a screamy like sort of Yeah. expressive

Yeah. expressive >> Yeah. things with a

>> Yeah. things with a >> and they have little they have little speakers on them if I'm not mist right from the speaker or there's an output.

>> I think I mostly plugged it in.

>> I think I recorded the with miked it up as well in my room. The the other one >> that's next level. Yeah, it definitely has that because that gritty sound that comes out of these tiny speakers kind of flutter in a certain way that uh

>> and then we've >> we've worked with that and uh I've used a plugin that I love called speaker phone.

>> Oh, where you can >> simulate speakers and rooms and stuff like that. And I mostly did all the

like that. And I mostly did all the robot bleeps and bloops with with that

little synth. And then

little synth. And then some sounds are also made with uh other

things. The really scary ones are

things. The really scary ones are usually other stuff as well.

>> I don't know how Andreas made the >> Yeah.

>> the bastion scream, right?

the bastion. That's some metal resonation thing combined with birds, I think.

>> I think it's a it's a bird and and some machine thing.

Um, and also through speaker phone, I guess. Was there something that you did

guess. Was there something that you did to actively make these things feel unique? Like, oh, that's that arc. You

unique? Like, oh, that's that arc. You

know, you hear it and it's like, oh, that it's sounds distinctive from another one. Or was it more intuitive?

another one. Or was it more intuitive?

>> Yeah, I we needed to make them distinct from from each other because because otherwise you won't recognize it and they do different things. So you want to

tell that now there's a this or that drone coming and it will do this or that to you.

>> I think they're also slightly different approaches right for the like the really big ones are using like it's not this one it's other stuff smaller. So

>> it's uh the bigger also set them apart that it's like maybe >> the really big alarms are done with the small thing as well.

>> Oh yeah >> yeah. Um, but I mean we usually also

>> yeah. Um, but I mean we usually also discuss like what what is this arc robot? What is it? Like what's inside

robot? What is it? Like what's inside it? What what kind of noises could this

it? What what kind of noises could this thing make? And then

thing make? And then >> yeah, >> like we try to build a fantasy around this machine and what what noises would come out of it and if it existed for

real, how would it propel itself? like

how would that sound then? So we try to we try to look for things in reality where it would make sense that this

thing used uh and then the starting point is always some kind of

reality based gadget or thing or whatever and then and then we go from there basically. And

sometimes you put the sound into the game and it's just like, oh yeah, but it's just it's just a regular alarm clock. Okay. Then I maybe I add

alarm clock. Okay. Then I maybe I add something to it that makes it not just a regular alarm clock, but something else as well.

>> Yeah. Especially if it's a sound that's part of your daily routine, maybe like an alarm clock. It can be almost too close to reality. You need to you need to shift it a bit.

>> That's never bad. [laughter] It's too immersive at that point.

>> Too close. You can't you can't ever get too close.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Did you use uh some actual recordings of real life stuff again going field recording for everything that was not sort of like vocalization of the arc but like the movement because I know there

are some that are pretty immense. Some

of them are like droney with like the rotors and stuff. Was that all?

>> We recorded some drone at some point.

Yeah.

>> Did that I don't remember if we actually Yeah.

>> Is it still in use? We recorded a few like uh drones. Uh

>> but then we we have also mixed in like uh helicopter recordings and stuff which is most it's like some of its sound library stuff as well. And same with

like we have some uh what's it called? like a lift from the back of a truck type of sound like as well that >> um

>> a cargo cargo lift or whatever >> and some uh >> it's a bunch of mechanical noises. We

bought a lot of mechanical noises and like scrap heap uh recordings and we've done a lot of those ourselves as well.

just going around banging things in different ways.

Like it it's an extreme amount of our own recordings in the game like the environments, the all the foley, the

guns, the explosions, the I mean everything you can record we have recorded. Okay.

recorded. Okay.

>> Uh also to not just to make it unique but also to like imagine you would have a cy sound

library that's recorded with the same microphone. It would be insanely

microphone. It would be insanely consistent in how it sound.

And so that's also how we do that. We

use one of these Sennheiser shotgun mics and I I use this little Sony >> Sony Yeah.

>> recorder.

And most things are recorded with uh those two microphones. Uh and then I mean the you get insane consistency.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense for this kind of game where we're talking about this kind of worldization where that consistency is key for the immersion. Um

>> Yeah.

>> So I just want to maybe move on to a bit about um bit about how you mix this game. Um,

it's very dynamic and you know, prior to this interview, I was playing some other games and shooter games and trying to get a sense of what their mix is like and you know,

it's very clean. It there's a there's things gel very well and this there's a lot of dynamics. You you hear the distance stuff that pops in and I'm just kind of curious like

is there anything else that is there anything new that you've brought to the table for mixing like this? any any kind of new thing you've learned from this?

I think like for this like the gameplay itself uh sort of naturally like >> allows >> allows for a dynamic or I mean it even

creates sort of a dynamic mix because you have these tense moments when you're trying to listen to hear what's going on and where you might just have like nature sounds and those kind of things

before >> maybe right >> other action thing. Yeah. Before

hits the fan. So that sort of lends itself to a dynamic mix in itself. Um

then also um we have we didn't have like an HDR or anything like that where you can sort of

where you have a moving um dynamic range constantly. So that also it's it's more

constantly. So that also it's it's more like we have we do some ducking and some stuff like that, but it's it's more of a

statically set dynamic mix, if that makes sense. Like this is how loud the

makes sense. Like this is how loud the like on a clear day without that much wind, this is sort of how loud the ambience is and this is where the birds are at and this is where the foley is at

and this is where guns and explosions are at. And that's

are at. And that's um >> right. So naturally in the in a playth

>> right. So naturally in the in a playth through the the volume can just sort of sore depending on what you're doing depending on the actions. Yeah. Okay.

Great.

>> And and the mix is really dynamic. U

>> Yeah.

>> But I mean we made it for playing it with headphones.

Uh I think most people play with headphones these days. I think I mean I guess rarely do people have like a proper pair

of speakers or something like that that that doesn't really exist.

>> Yeah. So, it's made for headphones and since the game allows for long

stretches where there's not any violent action going on, then for those moments where

where there is loud action going on, we can sort of allow it to be really loud.

Uh, and so we let weapons and explosions be really loud and that makes a huge

difference.

>> Yeah, it makes a huge difference like >> Yeah. just like the the amount of

>> Yeah. just like the the amount of background the level of the background noise and where that is at when something supposed to be impactful when

that kicks in like it makes a huge difference. And also just like how much,

difference. And also just like how much, you know, how much bass is there in in other sounds when you want something to kick in that's supposed to feel impactful in that way.

>> If you sort of >> spent all your your impact base perception budget on on your win before that thing happens and

>> Yeah. So you really had to conserve like

>> Yeah. So you really had to conserve like what's taking up that low end.

>> Um.

>> Yes. What takes up that low end.

Yeah, it's it's uh >> explosions.

>> Yeah. And guns and like >> impact from big walking things and stuff like [laughter] that.

>> Cool.

>> It's uh I mean since it's mostly the two of us uh doing the sound design, we all the

others have chipped in as well. Uh but

it's mostly the two of us. So it's quite simple.

to uh have a really really strict uh mixing policy when we make the sounds. Um

sounds. Um I I think also generally we're not super precious about each like individual

sound. It's more like is does this sound

sound. It's more like is does this sound like fit into the does it ruin the sort of big House of cards of immersion that we've

tried to build with all the other stuff and something like just >> right >> comes in it's like that's weird and it just ruins everything. So

>> yeah, >> we try to be really sort of careful with how things fit into other things uh to not break that illusion.

>> Did you guys use a sort of any sort of sound as a baseline being okay, this is the first sound we have loudness for. We

set it in stone and everything's going to be mixed accordingly to the in reaction to that or >> Yeah, a little bit like that actually. I

mean, we we we started out with just like how does just the air sound when nothing is going on.

>> Okay, >> it's like this loud. Uh and then and and compared to that, how loud is a footstep?

Okay, then there's a then that that that's really just a a process where we might just stand in a field and just listen to like okay this is how loud

this feels and now I start walking. How

loud does that feel? And when that balance is is feels natural then we sort of fit everything in there. So okay, how

loud is a is a gunshot? When you've done a lot of gun recordings, you know that guns are really loud and they they hurt

your ears if you're close enough. And

then like we try to put your own firing of a gun loud enough so that when you press the mouse you you

you flinch and and you you blink because it's a sudden scary loud sound and your brain just goes

>> right. And then and then there's the

>> right. And then and then there's the range somewhere. And then we just try to

range somewhere. And then we just try to put everything else in between there so that it feels natural. It's a

>> I think mixing is one of our >> I mean I I would go out on a limb and say we're actually pretty good at mixing

that to set the dynamics and then to keep that. So no one can make a sound

keep that. So no one can make a sound for I don't know putting down a cup and it being louder than a gun and having more bass than an explosion.

>> Right. Right. Because then we're instantly there and just removing that, cutting it, and then bringing it down.

>> Right. Yeah.

>> I mean, that happens all the time. We

put sounds in and oh, I just put this new sound in. I really like it. So, I

crank it up. But then,

>> right, >> Olaf comes five minutes later. It's

like, there's this loud sound in the [laughter] game. It feels weird. Can you

[laughter] game. It feels weird. Can you

just What is that? Oh, it's my new sound. Well, turn it down. [laughter]

sound. Well, turn it down. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Sometimes I think in big teams where people have their own domains, you know, they want it to sound really good that um there can be a lot of low-end hogging, you know, because they want

their sounds to really shine and that kind of stuff.

>> Yeah, you there needs to be some kind of discipline and sort of understanding what is doing what. Um,

>> yeah, it's it's a lot of like fiddling with each other's sounds as well. Like

like you might open my sound and cut the bass from it and put some more re like we're not super >> right. Right. Something design changes

>> right. Right. Something design changes and actually that >> just generally like aesthetically not try to be super like this is my thing and I did this thing and now >> we're >> look at my thing. It's more like, okay,

I'll take your thing and I'll fiddle with you all over each other's uh sounds.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, that's great. That's a that's a good dynamic. You should have that.

good dynamic. You should have that.

>> Um, >> that's great. And that's the whole like the the entire audio crew has that mentality. We we are all sitting in one

mentality. We we are all sitting in one corridor and we run in and out of each other's rooms and uh and just uh

just tell each other what we think [laughter] and then uh everyone needs to do that.

So >> and and that way we can keep all of us in check uh which is uh great.

Well, speaking of telling each other what you think and keeping everything in check, we can talk about maybe about the play tests, the tech tests. Um, yeah,

kind of curious like what what was the goal with with these tech tests on the audio side of things? What was the what were was there any kind of information that you were looking to get from from

the public?

I think it feels like we just wanted to make it sound as good as possible. Uh

for the test itself, I don't remember.

Do we have any sort of more like questions?

>> Yeah, you probably did a bunch of internal play testing at that point. It

was just like, okay, >> put this out, see how people feel.

>> Like play test like every like all the time internally.

>> Yeah. Yeah. and have had for five or six years. So, [laughter]

years. So, [laughter] >> right. Yeah,

>> right. Yeah, >> it's it's been a long it's been a long ride. Um,

ride. Um, >> no, I mean, we just really tried to make the game as as immersive as possible and

try to have as few bad things in it as possible.

>> Right. Yeah, that's our >> Was there any sort of takeaways then out of the play test? Maybe not something you were looking for, but something that was found along the way.

>> Yeah, I I there was a lot of positive feedback.

Yeah. Uh and

I was a bit surprised that it was so positive really. I mean, we we thought that it was a great game, but

then we are like simulation freaks. So,

we I it could have been also people could have thought it was super boring and uh I don't know, but but we were really

happy and >> yeah, it seems Yeah. really overwhelming

positive, >> right?

>> So, basically it It basically reinforced >> the the impressions you guys had internally.

>> It didn't change anything. It was just like, okay, we're on the right track.

>> Yeah. I think maybe even [clears throat] sort of Yeah. May maybe in if we were unsure if we were on the right path before we were less so after the tech

test. I think

test. I think >> I think one thing >> Yeah. I think that I think actually that

>> Yeah. I think that I think actually that that I mean both Olaf and I were really

keen on simulating reality and and and and a big feedback point was that people were

excited because it sounded uh so real.

So that gave us more energy to go even

uh more realistic. Uh so we've really double down on I think we ask ourselves every day is the simulation intact [laughter]

and then it's like yeah no there is this sound that sticks out okay let's work on that. Uh it's like the the daily mantra

that. Uh it's like the the daily mantra is what's the worst sounding thing in the game and then we fix that thing, >> right?

>> And then next day is going to be >> it's bound to be a new thing that is the worst thing in the game and then we fix that thing.

>> So >> there will always be a worse thing. I

mean always something at the bottom.

Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> You fix those until you're out of time >> and you're done.

>> Yeah. If I could circle back to the the immersion and the systemic nature, it sounds like there was a lot of effort

put into making things feel reactive and alive and as simulation-y as possible.

And I was wondering about the ambiences, especially given like the recent video that you guys uploaded, like besides the

player actions and arc actions, are there any other sorts of I guess movement and like changes that are I don't know, weather, time of day,

stuff like that. Is there anything else that sort of exists in that goal of creating immersion and like making it

super I don't know perceptions?

>> Sorry. Anything else besides like >> besides movement for like players and the arcs basically because I I noticed in that video that there are some moments where you hear you can hear like

arcs moving around. You can see a player and hear him before or her before stuff like that. But it sounded also even in

like that. But it sounded also even in the still shots it sounded like the environments were very I guess alive for lack of a better word. And like is it

just careful minutia between the timing of like okay bird sounds sound XYZ or what is there like something more to it?

>> There's an entire system [laughter] behind it.

>> Yeah.

>> Of course.

>> Yeah. It's it's [snorts] a lot of it is uh like parameter driven like a parameter driven system where we have like for this particular map we have

like we have a whole bunch of parameters and conditions going in one end and it's like oh this time of day it's this windy

you're this close to water blah blah blah blah and then we pick like okay so um we sort of rank all these things and

Then we play what we hope are the most appropriate sounds for those conditions.

Um, and we're trying to do that without having to hand place things and manage them manually in the level and more go by

uh like other types of like what kind of materials are surrounding you. And we

can piggyback off some of the things that uh the artists have used like scatter trees. that we can sort of

scatter trees. that we can sort of piggyback off those scatter actors and and figure out where trees are and we can uh we have other systems for

determining how close you are to like water and what if you're high above your surrounding terrain and those kind of things and we try to >> there is wind and rain that is

completely I mean it's it's a dynamic uh rain and wind system so the wind is

constantly changing and we have some control over what the how the wind is changing, but it's constantly changing.

And then more or less we've just gone out and recorded these different weather conditions and and we we've been

thinking of like what what makes something windy? How does how does windy

something windy? How does how does windy weather sounds? Why why does it sound

weather sounds? Why why does it sound windy? And then it's like, oh yeah,

windy? And then it's like, oh yeah, because it it makes the trees move and the leaves move and and if you go into a certain space, then they there can be

the sound of air in that space. So we've

done a lot of recordings of that.

Recording bushes, recording the grass, recording the trees, recording this, recording now it's raining. Oh, okay.

It's raining on a tin roof. record tin

roof when it's raining and uh Okay, I move into a room. How

does it sound when I'm in a room and it's raining outside?

>> On the tin roof.

>> On the tin roof. Then record that. Then

>> then we have all these recordings and then Olaf and me are trying to figure out how could we how could we detect

>> Yeah.

the situation where this recording would be good. And often it comes from us

be good. And often it comes from us playing the game and we're being in a spot where there's a c certain condition and it just sounds not like we expect.

Like this is not how this sounds. Okay.

How would it sound? Well, it would sound something like this. I have this recording of that situation. Okay. Can

we can we somehow detect the situation?

>> Can you can you describe maybe a use case of the situation? I'm kind of curious about >> the definition here of a situation.

Yeah. For for instance, it sounds very cool when it's super windy outside and maybe you're in a room

where the windows start rattling and and and basically you hear a little bit of the storm outside and then we have recordings of that and

then it's like okay then we want to play this sound somewhere but we have to get the situation right. So how then okay

then we have systems measuring like what kind of room I am in currently then we also have the wind strength that

is going on at this moment then then we can okay so if the wind is this strong and we're in a room like this if we can detect that then maybe we can start

fading in this recording of of a of a situation like that >> and then we might have other conditions on top of that. It's raining as well.

Well, then we have this recording of the rain >> going on outside when I'm inside and then we can start fading that in as well. And then we build this system on

well. And then we build this system on top of a system and trying to detect more and more things so we can use

the recordings we have uh for this.

>> Right. Yeah, that is very cool. that

makes me want to play the game and it's the kind of thing that makes me want to go in every single corner and listen to the sound cuz that's that's very cool.

>> And we also have some it's not completely but most of it is is working that way. Then we have some places where

that way. Then we have some places where um one of the sound designers is like oh I want to place this like thing at this particular location where it should be

more like a wind tunny kind of vibe and then he's placed like some uh spot sounds there as well. So we have some some decoration as well just actually

>> full of disclosure it's not all systemic. Yeah, I that kind of leading

systemic. Yeah, I that kind of leading into the other question I had and you know it first off was >> are you ever hand placing stuff but it sounds like you are sometimes. Um and I

guess the other one that's kind of related is are you ever where are you choosing to break immersion if you are is there like specific moments where like it's worth

it here? I think something we like

it here? I think something we like talked about a lot is when like go out and go to lunch and we're like walking and like [snorts]

on this like material you can't hear the footstep with sneakers like >> you can't hear like this person coming I can't hear anything whereas like in the

game like some I guess you hear footsteps a little better than you would in real life on some materials than on others Like if someone walks on gravel, you can hear it from really far away.

But uh I guess so we sort of have some >> Yeah, we we don't want to ever break immersion but >> for for gameplay reasons such as this,

like footsteps being like this super sensitive uh topic in games, like you can read on the internet, yeah, the game sounds but it has good footsteps.

It's like what what what is good footsteps? [laughter]

footsteps? [laughter] >> Yeah. Uh

>> Yeah. Uh >> it's the first thing anybody does when they learn how to game audio, you know, it's just like put in footsteps. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, so that's I mean that's that's clearly a place where we break uh reality because you can't hear footsteps

in reality. You can in in in in quiet

in reality. You can in in in in quiet conditions and and maybe in a forest if someone steps on a branch or something

then you can you can hear that but >> right like metal gant tree or like gravel you can hear pretty far but >> but but it's mostly like if you have

clear line of sight then maybe you can hear someone walking and it's very dependent on what the material is but but in our game you can hear I mean you

can hear someone in an adjacent room, >> right? Yeah. And that's part of the

>> right? Yeah. And that's part of the gameplay aspect of it, too, right?

>> You want to locate enemies. And

>> I think it's also some some sort of it's like a it not always necessarily realistic, but it's we want it to be believable anyway. Like it shouldn't be

believable anyway. Like it shouldn't be like, whoa, that's weird.

>> Yeah.

>> Where does that sound come from? It

sounded like it was really close, but it's not this. Now I'm all weirded out.

like try to avoid those situations and >> and I don't I don't know be >> believable >> and and the problem is also the when you start breaking

the rules of reality more and more then the whole mix starts falling apart because then then you hear things

okay if I heard that then I would I would I would hear this as well but I don't and then it's really starts to

fall apart. So, we we're trying there to

fall apart. So, we we're trying there to be really careful with uh with things like that. Uh I think another example

like that. Uh I think another example where you can like some games or we tried before like to take speed of sound into consideration like >> Mhm.

>> sounds far away.

>> Yeah. Exactly. Where we haven't gone because that's like if you go down that path >> Yeah. Then you end up in a like world of

>> Yeah. Then you end up in a like world of pain where like well this >> like the engine of that thing also needs to be delayed for it to like like

everything just >> yeah there's a kind of >> you need >> immersion and there's expectation and immersion is great but if it you know counters what a player expects it might

just be weird. Yeah.

>> Or you have to do it for every single sound source. you have to calculate the

sound source. you have to calculate the distance and delay it and it's just not feasible to do that. Yeah, it's just not.

>> And if you do it for select things, then you can end up in that thing that Benza was describing like, wait, >> the explosion happened after I saw it visually, but

not this other thing. And they're like, >> yeah. Yeah.

>> yeah. Yeah.

>> It seems like logic is a huge it's it's such an important part of the the design of your >> Yeah. and and some sort of consistency

>> Yeah. and and some sort of consistency or or like internal consistency within the the world of of the audio for the game.

>> Yeah. Dan, you had a question there.

>> I mean, yeah, sure. I had another one regarding uh basically your past experience was heavily if not entirely rooted in first person except maybe for

the vehicle stuff. But, uh, I was wondering, were were there any sort of like happy accidents or like fun findings or challenges when swapping to

third person? Because it's I'm assuming

third person? Because it's I'm assuming again for immersion sake, it's a bit different to not have this immersive point of view and just see your avatar

in game and all that stuff.

>> I I think it was mostly um it was easier to do third person. Oh.

third person. Oh.

>> Uh because all the first person games we did, we always had to distinguish the first person sound and the third

person sound. They had to be different.

person sound. They had to be different.

And first person sounds being kind of internalized of your your entire body and bone structure and everything. Like

when you walk, you perceive your own footsteps in a way that is not necessarily hearing them, but feeling them. And uh and a bunch of things like

them. And uh and a bunch of things like that where we when you're making a first person game, you have to think of these uh internalized

sounds that that are going on in your body and around your body and how you perceive them.

Uh whereas in a third person game basically we can just record it and play it and it will feel right off the bat.

>> Right. Yeah. I think also it's sometimes pretty complicated to convey the sense of like that you're performing a certain

action in a first person game like oh I vaulted over this thing but I can only see maybe or like I climbed up onto this thing but I can't really see my legs or

like I >> Mhm. all all those things where sound

>> Mhm. all all those things where sound should do or maybe has to do some of the lifting to portray the actions that you can't see. Right

can't see. Right >> now you can see the actions as well. So

it it sort of takes a bit of that burden away.

>> Yeah. Piggy back off of animations that are present and >> Exactly.

>> Yeah. Have logical sense there. Yeah.

>> Um I you know I think we only have a couple other questions before we wrap things up. Um, yeah, but I think

things up. Um, yeah, but I think >> there was the proximity chat.

>> Yes, >> I know that was something that came up a lot from the feedback seeing all the videos came out and just being like, how do the proximity chat in Arc Raider

sound this good when typically in other games it sounds like someone yelling in their mic, but in your game it sounds a bit more grounded again and worldalized?

>> Yeah, it came the idea came from this other game.

What was its name? Get Is it Get >> GTF? Get the out.

>> GTF? Get the out.

>> No, it was a super indie game where you where where you took jobs on like a sci-fi

I don't know, oil rig. I don't know it.

What What was the name? Uh

>> was it a multiplayer game or >> Yeah, it was a multiplayer.

>> It was like a four player co-op thing, wasn't it?

>> Lethal company or something like that.

Lethalact.

And uh >> and I I knew it was around the time when we released the finals. Uh

>> and I was constantly updating Steam like what which are the most played game at this hour of the day and at this hour of

the game. And I kept seeing this game

the game. And I kept seeing this game Lethal Company and it's like what what is this game? [laughter] And then I s and and I started to Google it and watch

game play.

And then it was this super uh simplistic indie game, but it had it they had

somehow ran their proximity chat out in the in the they were playing back the audio in the world and they were applying reverb >> the reverbs and that and and when I

heard that I was like this is >> this is genius. Uh this thing makes this game so immersive.

>> Uh >> it's really interesting.

>> It was just fantastic. So when when when we were discussing we should have proximity chat and then I just felt like

okay whatever we do we have to do it so that the sound of this chat is

actually uh emitted into the world through some kind of sound cue so that it gets the same treatment as all the other sounds in the game complicated.

Oh sorry.

>> It was complicated.

>> It was uh yeah, other smarter people than us.

>> I don't know how Lethal Camp Lethal Company [laughter] did it, >> but uh they at first they like made Yeah. used some other system so we could

Yeah. used some other system so we could get the the chat into the game as that we could treat with the same type of attenuation and and uh submix effects and all the others like we did with all

the other stuff. We also wanted to try to play back your proximity voice in the same way, but that doesn't work because of the latency with uh like

Microsoft's like if you have a if you don't have an acco driver like just the latency from like getting audio from your microphone

into the game and back like it doesn't feel like oh my voice is echoing >> because we wanted to like 30 as you speak. We wanted to

speak. We wanted to >> let yourself hear your own voice in the room you are in >> so you can hear the reverb.

>> Oh, like just the wet sand, just the reverb.

>> Yeah, that was the idea. It's like I hear my my own voice in my head and then but I also hear the re how it echoes off the environment. But I don't know what

the environment. But I don't know what the roundtrip latency is. It's like

>> Right. Right. Right.

>> 80.

>> It was too big. Uh so it just sounded weird. It you you your own echo

weird. It you you your own echo interrupted you when you started speaking so you stopped speaking when you heard uh your voice and then it just okay we can't do this.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh maybe if we get uh much faster CPUs then uh we might do it but our goal is to do that but we can't right it would be the dream

>> like hello hello hello.

>> Yeah echoing >> it would be very cool. I mean, it sounds like an interesting problem in general with the proximity chat, you know, I wrote it down as a note, but the more we we've talked about things and you've

discussed the sort of immersion and worldization and, you know, the the reality of things, it makes me go like, "Oh, yeah, proximity chat. That must

have been so challenging to mix into the into the game considering now despite how fine-tuned everything is and how detailed oriented you two are,

>> but the whole team >> now you have a mic that some random person across the world has, you know, in their room and that's what's going to

be projected through the world. So like

>> yeah, it's definitely playing the rogue cowboy in the game like we can't >> we can't control that. Uh unfortunately

it's going to be it it is what it is, >> right? Yeah.

>> right? Yeah.

>> But we felt like okay it's worth it. I

know we are working on some noise cancellation because if you're in a noisy environment >> like then it it's not nice to hear that also echoing out in the

>> my keyboard clickity clickity like >> but I I I watched a a super good uh

version of that by some guy who played the technical test and he found another guy in a room and then He started

speaking with him and asked if he could play a song for him. And then he started playing a guitar at home and singing to it in the game. It was hilarious.

>> Oh, wow. [laughter] Yeah. And then it's like, "Oh, but that's genius." Like he can play his songs. He can play his his own music with his guitar.

>> Now you can't do noise uh noise suppression too much or else it might ruin the song.

>> Exactly. That's a good point. Yeah.

Um yeah. So I I I mean I think we're getting uh to the end of it here. Uh

this last question, this is the question that we kind of, you know, ask everybody who joins us here. Um and that is if you were to like give advice to

your past selves early in production and you can define how when that is pre-production, maybe it's around the time of shipping sometime in the past.

Would you have any advice to give yourself nowing now that you're sort of at that point of release?

>> Oh, interesting.

>> Yeah, that's interesting.

>> Name your files in [laughter] a good way.

>> Yeah, that that would have been good.

[laughter] That's important sort of when >> I was just thinking about that earlier when when you we talked about like leaving all the mess and like starting

from scratch and like now over the last six years we've I think we managed to build up some some new >> bit of a new mess >> some new residue.

>> Yeah, that's a really good good question. Um

>> yeah, that is a good question. I

I don't know.

>> Hey, it doesn't have to be answered. You

know, if if if the answer is it's perfect, we wouldn't change a thing, then >> hey, I I

don't know. feel like we mostly

don't know. feel like we mostly focused on sort of um appropriate things

in the different sort of time like I think since we we did like pivot the game from a more PVE thing to a PVP

along the along the way but I think a lot of we could still use a lot of the systems that we built earlier anyway.

So, uh, we didn't have we haven't done that much throwaway work, um, >> right,

>> over the years as far as I can remember.

Then we've learned how to do things better and had to redo them sometimes.

But uh that's >> I mean, even though it was a PVE co-op game from the beginning, we always had the goal to make the perfect simulation.

[laughter] So like whatever the game is about, the perfect simulation is the goal. So nice.

It's >> fascinating that the the goal was and remains the same, >> which is probably the reason why it's so hard to find an answer to that question

of like an advice for your past self because things haven't changed.

>> No, not really.

>> That's amazing.

Uh yeah, I mean it's funny to see like fiveyear-old captures of the game how it looked then >> and then it's like oh yeah those sounds are still >> still doing a good job.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean, a lot of the of the Foley work was just this giant recording we did uh really early on and and that it's

still based on that.

>> Yeah, I guess it's a it's it's a bit of a testament to maybe the production as a whole like u there was a clear vision

from direction at at day one. So hey,

maybe you know we have the thing, let's just keep on iterating on it versus you know some productions aren't that way where the goal at day one and the goal

at ship are radically different which happens >> super often obviously. So that's cool.

That's great to hear.

>> Yeah.

Um but I think that's it unless Dan do you have any other questions?

>> No I everything's been covered I think.

>> Yeah. So

>> yeah, >> nice.

>> Yeah, thanks so much for doing this and uh yeah, best of luck because we are recording this before it's officially released. Best of luck uh with the rest

released. Best of luck uh with the rest of uh >> yeah, the production >> that final.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Yeah, it's uh [laughter] >> maybe that could be a nice way of ending things. Anything specific you're working

things. Anything specific you're working on for the next month? Like

>> everything?

>> Yeah, everything. [laughter]

>> Okay, so it's a general thing. It's not

just >> Yeah. Okay.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> It's Yeah, it's a lot of uh >> it's a just a lot of stuff. Everyone is

just cramming in uh now and we It's just like a hail storm of new things that we have to make sounds for,

>> right? It's like always when during

>> right? It's like always when during these sort of the last stretch it always like oh maybe if we're really lucky we can make it but then at the same time

things that have been working for a couple of years start breaking as well like I mean that's always the case and you got failing >> exactly [laughter]

>> that you got to fix other stuff while fixing the new stuff >> right well I I wish you the best of luck with that and uh thanks And thank