Are You Ignoring Your Soul’s Messages? Yale Psychiatrist On Angels, Intuition & the Higher-Self

This psychic and a young child come up to me and the psychic says, "I'm a psychic. I have a message for you. Can I

psychic. I have a message for you. Can I

give you a message?"

>> What?

>> This woman starts telling me all of these deep truths about my life, including the name of the guy that I had a crush on. I don't know if she read my mind. There's no way this woman could

mind. There's no way this woman could have known. And she knew that which we

have known. And she knew that which we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears, is only 1% of reality. 99% of

reality is unseen and unheard.

>> Dr. Anna Yum, she's an award-winning psychiatrist. She's a clinical assistant

psychiatrist. She's a clinical assistant professor at Yale Medical School and has spent years studying all of the spiritual traditions to find what can

she bring to her western practice that can really transform lives. Nobody wants

to consciously self-sabotage, but we do.

There's something holding us back.

Intuition is an epiphenomena of consciousness. It is also the voice of

consciousness. It is also the voice of the soul. Your connection to the part of

the soul. Your connection to the part of us that already knows what is best for us in any given situation. How can you receive intuitive information? The four

claire's clairvoyance, clare audience, the clare sentience, and clare cognizance, which is when you just know just by virtue of knowing.

>> There are people who hear things routinely >> at the quantum level. We're matter and energy. We need to clear out whatever

energy. We need to clear out whatever blockages we have within ourselves. Ego,

anger, jealousy, our hatred, depression, all of those things that are so human.

If we don't know how to metabolize it, they contract us, lower our frequency, and prevent us from having the best life possible. Ultimately, there are two

possible. Ultimately, there are two primary ways to manifest. One is

>> Hi, I'm Ava.

>> And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

>> And welcome to our breakdown.

>> Welcome to our expansion into the psychic realm.

>> What's that I hear? Is it intuition?

>> It may be one of the four clairees.

>> Today we're going to be talking about a variety of aspects of our spiritual experience that directly impacts our brains, our nervous systems, and

everything that we decide. If you're not sure why spirituality touches every part of your life and existence, you're going to want to hear this episode today. If

you want to develop better intuition, if you want to feel connected to something greater, if you want to access your guides and guardian angels, this is the episode for you. If you're rolling your

eyes at the mention of guardian angels and guides, this episode is also for you because we're going to talk about what is actually happening when we tap into

information that is not available in any physical sense. What does it mean to say

physical sense. What does it mean to say that there is spiritual energy in the universe that's around us all the time?

Why are some people able to tap into it and others roll their eyes at it? When

we talk about the four clairees, you may have heard of clairvoyance, but have you heard of clare cognizance? Have you

heard of clare audience? Have you heard of clare sensience? We're going to learn about the four clairees and what it means to be in touch with information in

the energetic and spiritual realm.

>> And if you think this is a very out there conversation, we're having it with a psychiatrist and an MD that has been

trained at some of the world's best academic institutions.

>> Who is the psychiatrist who is so deeply tuned into the spiritual realm? Her name

is Dr. Anna Yusum. She's an

internationally recognized, award-winning, boardcertified Stanford and Yale educated psychiatrist and also a coach. She has clients including

a coach. She has clients including Forbes 500 CEOs, Olympic athletes, and A-listers. Her book is Fulfilled: How

A-listers. Her book is Fulfilled: How the Science of Spirituality Can Help You Live a Happier, More Meaningful Life.

She's a clinical assistant professor at Yale Medical School and the co-founder of the Yale Mental Health and Spirituality Program and Center, which bridges the Yale Medical School and the

Yale Divinity School. She is an incredible expert on all things psychology, psychiatry, and mysticism.

She's traveled to over 70 countries and has spent years studying all of the spiritual traditions to try and find what is in common and what can she bring

to her western practice that can really transform lives. We talk about

transform lives. We talk about autoimmunity. We talk about depression,

autoimmunity. We talk about depression, anxiety, we talk about trauma. Also

included in this episode is a conversation about prayer.

>> Be careful what you pray for because you may not like the results. She explains

why the law of attraction may not be working for you.

>> We're going to have Dr. Yum explain all of this and break all of this down. It's

a wonderful episode. We cannot wait for you to hear it. And please hop over to Substack because Dr. Ysum's book also contains a ton of exercises and meditations and we're going to feature

one of those just for our Substack listeners. So, please go over to

listeners. So, please go over to biolbreakdown.substack.com

biolbreakdown.substack.com for content you cannot and will not get anywhere else. Dr. Dr. Anna Yusum,

anywhere else. Dr. Dr. Anna Yusum, welcome to the breakdown.

>> Break it down.

>> Thank you so much, Mim. It's amazing to be here with you today.

>> There's so many different aspects of spirituality, of mental health, of psychiatry that you are an expert in.

Before we get started, what would you say is the biggest misperception people have about spirituality and mental health? It's a great question and I

health? It's a great question and I would say that the misconception is that the two are actually very separate and distinct and so-called strange bed fellows. And the reason people have that

fellows. And the reason people have that misconception is because often everything that is scientific and medical is seen as subject to experimentation to double blind placebo

control trials. Something you can touch

control trials. Something you can touch with your hands, hear with your ears, very empirical. Whereas spirituality is

very empirical. Whereas spirituality is something that is deeply subjective, transcendent, very personal and hard to reproduce. You know, experimentation and

reproduce. You know, experimentation and replication, which is why the science of spirituality is often such a paradox and a mystery to many. But I believe that

they actually are so interlin. And

that's what we will talk about today.

>> Well, I think a lot of people want that intersection because they want proof because it can be so subjective. And we

talk about spiritual awakening. how

people are often touched and their lives are transformed and they have miraculous health benefits and yet people want a road mapap and there doesn't seem to be

one. What have you discovered as you've

one. What have you discovered as you've studied this from a scientific basis?

What is there a road map? What should

people know is possible?

>> That is also such a great question because you're exactly right. People

want certainty. They want something they can touch. What do I have to do to get

can touch. What do I have to do to get better? ABCD. I have to become

better? ABCD. I have to become spiritual. What does that even mean?

spiritual. What does that even mean?

What if I don't believe in God? What if

I believe in mother nature and I'm in flow, but God has never really been there for me? What if God abandoned me when I got cancer? You know, what if I have all these beliefs that are in contrast to this whole spiritual thing that everybody's pushing on me? So, I

think that a lot of people encounter that. The way that you can answer a

that. The way that you can answer a question like that is twofold. One is to look at the science because there's been a ton of science at this point looking at how spiritual beliefs and practices

could actually improve physical and mental health as well as well-being. And

there's numerous studies showing that for instance going to church on a regular basis reduces suicide by up to five times. And so this is weekly church

five times. And so this is weekly church attendance humongous effect size on suicide reduction. Very interesting.

suicide reduction. Very interesting.

This is for both men and women. However,

it's not for every population. Do you

have a sense of what population might not have that effect? The LGBTQ

community, >> you know. So, it's more the heteronormative communities. Churchgoing

heteronormative communities. Churchgoing reduces suicide. LGBTQ the opposite

reduces suicide. LGBTQ the opposite effect. Very interesting, right? But the

effect. Very interesting, right? But the

effect sizes for those people for whom it does reduce it, very profound, very powerful, very real effects. And then

you look even deeper. What is it about churchgoing that reduces suicidality?

Right? And there's many different things. Is it the community? Is it

things. Is it the community? Is it

beliefs about healthy living? Is it

having, you know, something to do every Sunday at noon? Is it something, you know, much deeper? And there's actually one primary thing that was at the root of it all. That was the number one

factor, whereas all the rest also came into play. And it wasn't any of the ones

into play. And it wasn't any of the ones I mentioned. Any ideas what that is? I

I mentioned. Any ideas what that is? I

want to believe that it is some connection and feeling that you're a part of something and that you matter in some way outside of the social connection. I want to believe

connection. I want to believe that you know from a spiritual experience we are touched in some way that we can't ignore. M I think that

that also is a huge huge part of it and but interestingly the number one factor is actually a moral prohibition against suicide that church going instills in people.

>> Wow. So very interesting, right? That

was all the other factors what you said as well. Feeling that you have a

as well. Feeling that you have a connection to the divine, being connected to your inner essence for the first time. How can that not be

first time. How can that not be significant? And yet the number one

significant? And yet the number one thing is the moral prohibition. And this

is all based on Tyler Vanderw's research at Harvard's uh center for human flourishing. So it's, you know, data

flourishing. So it's, you know, data like this that's super interesting and super compelling. And they have this for

super compelling. And they have this for recovery from cancer, recovery from addiction, so many other things as well, depression, anxiety, etc. Spiritual beliefs and practices consistently

having positive effects. but you know in nuanced ways similar to this.

>> Let's separate out spiritual belief and practice from religion because it's such a murky area for people. The institution

of religion as you mentioned especially for people who may be uh not in the heteronormative community the morality there or the judgment there can have a

negative effect. So let's talk

negative effect. So let's talk without religion. What does it mean to

without religion. What does it mean to have a spiritual experience? Yeah. And I

also love that you brought in religion and the distinction between the two. And

um so according to the Pew Research Center and all the studies there, there's four groups among us. We are

either spiritual and religious, spiritual but not religious, religious but not spiritual, and neither religious nor spiritual. And interestingly over

nor spiritual. And interestingly over the past 25 years, two groups have been going up and two have been going down.

The two that have been going up are both of the groups with spirituality. The two

that have been going down are both of the groups with religion. Religion is

going down in our community, in our country, in our society, and it's being replaced by people wanting more of a spiritual belief. So, anything that is

spiritual belief. So, anything that is more orchestrated, ritualized with authoritative is starting to go down, replaced by a more personal connection

to the divine, whatever that means to somebody. Whether that is in a more

somebody. Whether that is in a more religious way because you can be spiritual through being religious or in a more secular way which is connection through yoga, meditation, something that

is you know connected to you and your divine essence such as a connection to nature or psychedelics etc. All of these ways are ways in which people can connect to their spiritual essence and

spiritual self.

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A lot of people get to the end result of a spiritual experience through suffering of some kind.

>> For sure.

>> I just keep racking up the suffering and waiting for the spiritual awakening to happen.

>> We all are Maya. Unfortunately, you're

like, what's on the other side? How do

we, you know, speed that process up?

Exactly. Where's the road map? The the

other thing I think that happens is that people who have a spiritual experience or who are seeking it believe that there is

some understanding of how the universe works, how to navigate life that they are missing, right? Like it's this multiple sided benefit. Yes, there are

physical benefits which we want to touch on. Yes, there are internal benefits

on. Yes, there are internal benefits like uh more inner peace, more clarity, less anxiety and depression. And then

like the third bucket is actually like I'm not saying life is going to be perfect, but there's this belief that we are all here for some purpose. And by

increasing our senses, we can navigate the world differently. And I'm not saying we achieve X Y or Z or have this many cars or anything, but there's

something where we are in acceptance and life unfolds in a way that seems to make some kind of sense instead of random chaos.

Can you talk a little bit about the people who are seeking the third and then we'll cover all of them?

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And what this makes me think of, you know, I talk a lot about manifestation. That's a very popular buzzword these days, right? And

you think about how do you manifest? And

I think that there are two primary ways to manifest. One is deliberate action

to manifest. One is deliberate action and intent, which some people may equate as the more masculine way of manifesting. You set a goal, you say,

manifesting. You set a goal, you say, "I'm going to do this." You work very hard, you make it happen. Great. We all

know how to do this. This is how we got through graduate school, medical school, became a neuroscientist, etc. And then there's the other way, which is not

about doing, but much more about being.

And in being, you essentially figure out how to embody the most joy and peace that you can possibly embody and essentially have this thing called the vibrational frequency and have your

vibrational frequency become a match for the vibrational frequency of whatever it is that you're trying to draw in. And in

that state of being, you set your intention. You do what you have to do,

intention. You do what you have to do, but it's very different. You don't go out and make it happen. It's like a surrender and receiving. And this is the two ways that I think that we as humans

manifest. One is very actionoriented

manifest. One is very actionoriented masculine. Let's do it. The other one is

masculine. Let's do it. The other one is more feminine receiving. Let's be let's enhance our state of being and let's receive what we can from the divine.

>> You know, I think that there's um a certain amount of handwaving that sometimes goes on when people talk about raising their vibration. um you know it is something that does have a um a

practical nature to it in certain forms of yoga we actually you know kind of work on um I don't know I think working

in these arenas of raising a frequency um but maybe Dr. could explain to us sort of what that means in terms of matching it with that of someone else.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know like ultimately we are energetic beings and we also are matter. So we're matter and energy and

matter. So we're matter and energy and with as such we have a frequency as does all matter and energy and you know in a way like sometimes we we have our own

destiny but we might want a destiny that's a little bit of a different destiny and in order to reach that destiny we need to clear out whatever blockages we have within ourselves that lower our frequency and what are the

things that lower our frequency we can think about those things and this is from my studies of cabala way back in the day you know the the manifestations of ego go. So, our anger, our jealousy,

our hatred, our sadness, our depression, all of those things that are so human and that we've all felt and are so normal. And yet, if we don't know how to

normal. And yet, if we don't know how to metabolize it, if those things become a part of it, they contract us, lower our frequency, and prevent us from having the best life possible. And so, that's

one of the ways of increasing your frequency. And the other way is filling

frequency. And the other way is filling yourself with the positives. Filling

yourself with joy, peace, living with purpose and missionbased, purpose-driven, contented action in the context of your life. Serving others, uh interacting with gratitude and awe,

which are like the spiritually adjacent, you know, uh entities and and states of being on a regular basis. It feels like this is the intersection of the

spiritual language that is common and and popularized and the quantum science neuro physiology. Can we bridge these

neuro physiology. Can we bridge these two? Because a lot of people hear this,

two? Because a lot of people hear this, I'm going to raise my frequency and they're kind of like okay sure but like is that just something that I'm like

thinking? Is it in my body? Is it in my

thinking? Is it in my body? Is it in my quantum field? whatever that means like

quantum field? whatever that means like how do we bring these two uh different disciplines together to make this really understandable? What is the mechanism by

understandable? What is the mechanism by which spiritual connection uh manifestation is actually changing right

things about our our our hormone profile hormonal profile our physiology our mood what is the mechanism for that >> I think that's a great question and there's people who are devoting their

life to studying that we have uh Dr. Mark Potenza at Yale where I'm um based and we have Lisa Miller at Colombia. So

the two of them together have done studies looking at the neural coralatess of spiritual experience. So there are certain regions of the brain that get activated when you think about God, when

you pray, when you are in gratitude, when you feel aligned with your purpose, right? And also you know because

right? And also you know because spirituality is something that is so encompassing and it can be secular or religious. For instance a form of

religious. For instance a form of secular spirituality is meditation.

There are tons of benefits of meditation helping with hormones with sematic processes with anxiety with your sympathetic and parasympathetic system balance with regulating your vagus

nerve. Tons of studies showing all that.

nerve. Tons of studies showing all that.

and you know different meditation techniques showing subtlety and variation in that but nevertheless the uh finding is clear that meditation over

the long term has a huge impact mechanistically. So I think that um to

mechanistically. So I think that um to answer that question we first have to say what part of spirituality do we mean and then looking at each part of spirituality really look at what the science shows and there is a lot of

science.

>> Circling back to frequency raising how does that help us navigate life or get the life that is one step beyond or two

steps beyond where we're currently at.

>> We're talking about it yes at the quantum level. I do believe frequencies

quantum level. I do believe frequencies raise, but I talk about it really more mechanistically as a metaphor, metaphorically raising your frequency.

And this is moving from a state of contraction to a state of expansion. And

we all know what it's like to be contracted, right? To feel stuck, to

contracted, right? To feel stuck, to feel scared, to feel fear, to be in those ego states that I mentioned, control, fear, and uh sadness, depression anger hatred jealousy all of those things. Nobody wants to be

there. And we all know what it's like to

there. And we all know what it's like to be in expansion, right? And so what do you do? How do you go from one to the

you do? How do you go from one to the other? And there's many many different

other? And there's many many different ways. There's many different um and I

ways. There's many different um and I think that first the distinction has to be there's things that you can do consciously. And then there's ways in

consciously. And then there's ways in which you have to work on your unconscious because there's a lot of aspects of us that we can change everything consciously but still not be receiving in life that which we hope to

receive. And why is that? It's because

receive. And why is that? It's because

there's something holding us back in our deeply held unconscious core beliefs that needs rectification and release and metabolism. And until that happens,

metabolism. And until that happens, whatever conscious work we do to raise our frequency and remove you know blockages is going to hinder us. So this

is a very powerful important step to doing unconscious work and there's many different ways to do that from psychoanalysis to hypnosis to um unconscious reprogramming you know

through hypnotic suggestion with certain therapists who are trained in that and psychedelics can do that for people as well in certain circum circumstances certain trauma work can do that for

people and then at the conscious level you align you know with with expansion to the degree that you are able and I can you know talk much more about all that too.

>> What comes to mind when you're explaining this is like there could be a solution that you haven't even thought about yet because you're so worried about finding the solution that life

can't unfold and give you an opportunity. I want something so badly

opportunity. I want something so badly that I'm just going to force a solution versus sitting back and saying I have to have a little bit of trust in order for that solution to unfold which

can be a terrifying component. I

completely agree and this is I think the most powerful part of faith and which is surrender is that you do your whatever it is that you are seeking to manifest or that you would like to have happen

you do your work in the physical world you give 100% and then you have to trust and have faith and believe that there is also something greater that is supporting you if you're a spiritual

person if you choose to live this way right and in doing so when you surrender you're exactly right that magic can happen things can come into your consciousness through synchronicity into

your intuition and you can see things in a new way or something can present that you never ever would have thought that was a solution to a problem and this happens you know in magical ways for

instance with mathematicians and artists who are trying to solve something in their mind they do all their conscious work and then finally they go to sleep and they wake up with a solution that's one way that that manifests and in other

ways people are trying really to solve a problem in their life and then one day a solution just comes from out of the blue. They're like, "I never would have

blue. They're like, "I never would have thought of this." And they're like, "Thank you very much." And, you know, they thank the divine for the intervention.

>> It's like you you're mentally trying to solve this problem. You can't figure it out. Finally, you give up and you're

out. Finally, you give up and you're like, "I'm just going to go get a coffee and enjoy myself." And you end up having a conversation with someone in line at the coffee shop where they say something

and all of a sudden the problem opens up for you and you see it totally differently. Mime likes to joke um as

differently. Mime likes to joke um as she did earlier that she's just in the suffering part, but all the time she's like, "Oh, I saw this differently." And

if we try to help people understand what a spiritual awakening is, I think we have to dismiss the idea that it is somehow all of a sudden I'm floating on

a cushion and I don't touch the ground anymore because I've achieved such a grand state of enlightenment and instead it is about these moments of shifted

awareness that all of a sudden I have a problem and I haven't been able to figure it out and a solution is available in a way that I hadn't imagined before.

>> Yeah, I love that. And also, you know, um, a course in miracles, which is a spiritual framework. There they describe

spiritual framework. There they describe a miracle as a shift in perception, just like you said. And that's exactly it. We

see the world a new, our mind expands, our life expands. Very powerful. you

know many of these things are are generally kept separate from the fields of psychiatry from you know kind of the classic western materialist perspective.

I I wonder did you receive any push back when you started incorporating some of this spiritual perspective into your practice and into your kind of worldview

and how have you you know how have you managed to balance that? Yeah. So, I

anticipated receiving a great deal of that when I first wrote my book, which was integrating mental health and spirituality, but I also was very committed to writing the book in truth

based in my research and my experience.

And so, I went to um Stanford for undergrad, Yale for medical school, then NYU. Then I very deliberately chose not

NYU. Then I very deliberately chose not to be affiliated with an academic institution as I wrote my book and started my practice for the next, you know, x number of years. And after I

wrote my book, I started talking at different schools at, you know, Cropalo, Multiversity, all these different places. And when I went to speak at

places. And when I went to speak at Yale, I saw my old professors, they liked my book, and they actually invited me back on faculty. And that was like a shock and such an amazing revelation

that here I put something out there that was really kind of out there. And rather

than dismissing it, Yale was ready for it. Like society was ready for that

it. Like society was ready for that integration. And that was when in 2017

integration. And that was when in 2017 we started talking about the creation of this mental health and spirituality center which would be at Yale a bridge between the divinity school and the medical school. And we started working

medical school. And we started working on that and we're still you know working on that. We have the program now we're

on that. We have the program now we're going to have the center when we you know have enough funds for that and eventually God willing an institute which will also grant degree granting programs at the intersection of mental

health and spirituality. So it was it was I anticipated having a lot more push back but because I think because I tried to approach it in the most scientific

way I could and had wonderful colleagues in psychiatry stand behind me in my work I think that was incredibly helpful and Yale accepted it and has been super supportive of the work thereafter.

Here's an area that has a lot of crossover between what I will call the spiritualist language and the medical

psychoanalysis language. The notion that

psychoanalysis language. The notion that at a unconscious level there may be things happening that are running our perception, running our beliefs that we

don't even realize are happening, that make it seem like the world is this horrible place that make it seem like we can't get anywhere, that we're stuck in

some way. You mentioned doing this

some way. You mentioned doing this unconscious work. Can you talk a little

unconscious work. Can you talk a little bit about that level of programming that is influencing and filtering people's reality?

>> Absolutely. And this was probably Sigman Freud's greatest contribution to the field of psychiatry was the understanding of the unconscious mind.

And the idea of the unconscious mind comes from the fact that you have your conscious mind where you will certain things, but then you also see how you as a human being will self-sabotage, right?

How certain things just for whatever reason don't seem to work out in certain parts of your life. You have challenges, right? Right? In my book, I call these

right? Right? In my book, I call these our soul corrections or tacons. Those

things that come up in our lives again and again and again, often much to our shagrin and dismay and despite our best efforts to change it. Sigman Freud

called these your repetition compulsions. The same idea. It's those

compulsions. The same idea. It's those

things that are your particular self-sabotage pattern. And so, nobody

self-sabotage pattern. And so, nobody wants to consciously self-sabotage, but we do. So, what is that unconscious

we do. So, what is that unconscious process? By virtue of being human, you

process? By virtue of being human, you will self-sabotage. Now the question is

will self-sabotage. Now the question is what is your unique self-sabotaging pattern and it's often through therapy working with a professional you can see how this you know someone can hold a

mirror to how this can work for you.

>> Can you give us some examples just cuz you know there's people who don't want to cheat but end up cheating or there's people who don't want to drink to excess but they can't seem to control their addiction. Am I thinking of good

addiction. Am I thinking of good examples? Th

examples? Th >> those those are great examples. It's um

that you want to be faithful but for whatever reason you can't be faithful that you make an intention you make an intention to yourself to your spouse and then you don't end up being faithful

over and over what is sabotaging you what is the unconscious pattern that you are playing out and the same thing you really want a relationship you want a healthy stable relationship with an

amazing man or woman and yet you keep drawing in emotionally unavailable men or women and you know, so and why is that? You want one thing, but you keep

that? You want one thing, but you keep drawing in the other. So, what is the delta? What's the gap? And there's so

delta? What's the gap? And there's so many different reasons for that for, you know, on both sides. Like, we can, if you want, we can dissect and I can give you like the 10 reasons that like this could happen.

>> Just send me your bill and I'll be happy to do that.

>> Exactly.

>> What are some of the reasons people often think? They're like, well, it's

often think? They're like, well, it's unconscious. I don't know how to get to

unconscious. I don't know how to get to it. I don't have all this endless time

it. I don't have all this endless time to circle around and discover it.

>> Most people don't have financial resources also to do that.

>> Absolutely. Abs. In which case, bibliootherapy, get some really, really good books and start drilling down and start understanding yourself through books. Yeah. You know, and all the

books. Yeah. You know, and all the podcasts, all the amazing content that is put online, but often working with a professional of course is if people are able much better. But let's let's talk about that. Let's talk about why

about that. Let's talk about why somebody who says that they really really want a relationship. Let's say a woman with like a she wants a wonderful man, a committed man with whom she could have a family. And who does she draw in?

Train wrecks. She draws in train wrecks.

One train wreck after the other. Right?

This guy is dating five other women.

This guy she has to take care of like she's his mother. This guy ends up stealing from her.

>> Now she's got to be polyamorous, but he's the one who wanted it. She's not

even sure what polyamorous is. But okay,

we'll try it.

>> Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so, so many different ways to understand this, right? And this can be understood first

right? And this can be understood first from the lens of, you know, her own upbringing that as much as she wants this healthy, stable relationship, she might not have the pattern for it. She

might have the default pathway of something totally different based on what her parents are playing. So, she

might be running that old program without even realizing it. Option one.

option two, which can co coincide with option one. She really really wants

option one. She really really wants commitment, but there's a part of her that's also terrified of commitment, right? And so she also loves to be free

right? And so she also loves to be free and she's strong and independent. And so

in being terrified of commitment, how better to avoid commitment than to constantly draw in emotionally unavailable men or train wrecks, things that don't work out, right? So those are just two, but there's so many more. And

and as you go with somebody deep into this work, you can understand why they're making the choices they're making. And ultimately, as you start to

making. And ultimately, as you start to look at intergenerational patterns, because usually the patterns that you observe with somebody are not just with this person. They go from their parents

this person. They go from their parents and from the grandparents. You start to understand the intergenerational shifts.

And in understanding those shifts, you then make the unconscious conscious. And

suddenly, when the unconscious is conscious, you finally have control over it. you can make a different choice in a

it. you can make a different choice in a way you couldn't before. And in doing so, what you're doing with the intergenerational pattern is the buck stops here. You're done. You don't pass

stops here. You're done. You don't pass this on to your children. You actually

stop the intergenerational pattern because you have chosen to do the work.

Metabolize it and let it go. It's very,

very powerful work. The pattern that I see is that when someone is continually ending up in the place that they don't want, when they consciously want something else, what they end up doing

is blaming the universe. But when you describe it that there is this program running that they may not be aware of, the external reality of their lives is actually the perfect reflection of all

the mechanisms, all the dominoes that are falling on the inside.

They're just falling in silence.

>> 100%. And I think that the first point that you made about blaming the universe and thereby making oneself the victim of the, you know, an evil protagonist or an evil, you know, god or an evil whatever

that does happen for many people. And

that's another subconscious pattern that for whatever reason they learn that in being a victim, they somehow have righteous indignation of the victim. And

so they seek out blaming the victim whenever they can on an unconscious level. They could have learned this

level. They could have learned this somehow or another. They just, you know, came into the world and this was a pattern of theirs. And once they recognize that pattern, they can make

different choices as well. And that's a very powerful pattern that, you know, we when something goes wrong tend to internalize it. Oh, this was all my

internalize it. Oh, this was all my fault. Or we tend to externalize it. it

fault. Or we tend to externalize it. it

was this person or my parents or an evil god or unjust circumstances. And in

different situations, it's different.

But usually people tend to sway one way or the other. And if people sway too much at blaming themselves, it's actually good to externalize a little bit. But if you are the victim and have

bit. But if you are the victim and have victim mentality, it's good to start taking more responsibility. What did I do to get here? And what kind of control do I have to get myself out? The other

component that you talk about is this idea of intergenerational patterns and you know the language that is familiar amongst people in the energy healing world is the notion that I'm going to do

the work and break the cycle. Let's

unpack that a little bit because inherent in that is the work of uh Bert Helinger and family constellation work.

I want to talk about these intergenerational patterns and we've heard about the epigenetics work with mice and showing that mice who go hungry

um will then multigenerations later have you know physiological in influence of that and impacts of that. So, we've seen those studies, but what you're talking

about is actually more pervasive whereby a mother or father or even grandparents or even great greatgrandparents

psychological profile, whether that be pain they're carrying, uh broken relationships, not being able to accomplish something, >> fleeing war,

>> fleeing war, fear, intense fear, um physical safety issues.

those patterns not only psychologically but you know energetically are imprinted on the individual. And the way that Bert Helinger talks about it and I'm curious

how you interpret it is that because you're a member of the family and you're connected to these people the child will reflect those patterns not

because they think they have to but almost as a reflection of being part of the system. It's like, "Hey, I

the system. It's like, "Hey, I understand. I speak the same language of

understand. I speak the same language of this family energetically, even if they never knew that the parent had an affair. Even if it was so buried in

affair. Even if it was so buried in secret that there's no possible way the conscious would ever have registered it, that these patterns are exist." And I

again we struggle with the word in the energy realm because it's hard to visualize but it's almost like there is this code of ones and zeros that are

just surrounding us in a similar way that Neil thes when we spoke to him explained that everyone who lives in a house shares a microbiome in some way like that information is just passed

back and forth. The same is true with theformational data of our emotional experience and our psychological experience. And so you think, "Oh, I'm

experience. And so you think, "Oh, I'm not anything like my parents, but you've received all of this information on a physiological level that you're not even aware of."

aware of." >> I completely agree. This is why I think constellation therapy is super super interesting and doing genogs and seeing the patterns in families. And those

patterns can be like you said, it could be patterns of addiction or patterns of certain emotional things or patterns of cheating or it could be patterns of like here's more subtle patterns of the

parentified child of somehow or another the child uh comes into the world having to take care of the parents because the parents are unstable mentally or physically or weak mentally or

physically and the child is a strong one. And then what that does in a family

one. And then what that does in a family system is that actually reverses the family system because you're supposed to have the grandparents, the parents, the child and the energy is supposed to flow down. And the idea of the family system

down. And the idea of the family system is even after people have passed, the energy is supposed to support you from your ancestors. And if you have the

your ancestors. And if you have the family system aligned in the right way, you get support from your ancestors to have certain processes and patterns work out in your life with the right energetic support. And when that is not

energetic support. And when that is not present like a parentified child that like flips the you know that like has the energy flowing the wrong way and so then you can energetically fix that or

there could be a pattern of secrets that you know and and you're exactly right the most interesting thing is like you said this is imprinted at the energetic level. People might not even know about

level. People might not even know about secrets consciously but they just feel it. They know and children sense

it. They know and children sense everything. Children are sponges. They

everything. Children are sponges. They

pick up all of the things of their parents. The parents think the children

parents. The parents think the children don't know. They know everything. They

don't know. They know everything. They

might not know it consciously. They

might not know that they know, but they do know. It's being imprinted in in

do know. It's being imprinted in in every single part of their being, their energetic being, their physical being, their spiritual being. That's who we become. And so to recognize what

become. And so to recognize what patterns exist and see what because in every family there's amazing patterns.

There's traits that we love and traits that we want to expand on. And there's

also traits that could be really problematic for your life in whatever way. So going through and doing this

way. So going through and doing this genog really understanding where you fit into the family system and then figuring out how you could do the rectification exercises with that very powerful work

and I've seen it in my practice create huge shifts with families. What happens

when there's a conflict in a family, right? Can you explain a little bit from

right? Can you explain a little bit from your perspective, especially as a psychiatrist, right? How do you manage

psychiatrist, right? How do you manage the energetics of a family, let's say, that is in conflict? How do you know when people should be brought back

together? How do you know when people

together? How do you know when people should be kept apart? And it also relates to some of the conversations you've had about sort of energy vampires, right? If you sense that

vampires, right? If you sense that someone, let's say in your life or in your family is taking something from you energetically when you are with them, is there a way to remedy that? How do you

work with that kind of energy conflict?

>> Great question. So, I think we'll take the first one first. Um, so in working with families and couples, how do you know when people should be together and rectifying and when they should be

apart? I would say that the goal in

apart? I would say that the goal in families to the degree that's possible is always to rectify and to enable people to come together and metabolize whatever is going on and to have safe

discourse and to create the space where people can openly discuss what it is that they are experiencing. And the

situations where people should be kept apart is if first of all if somebody requests that specifically and then to understand the reasons for that and second if there is danger danger to

one's safety or any sort of abuse and in those situations that could definitely be a different way of of treating but with conflicts you really want to bring

people together and because conflict is an inevitable part of life. It's an

inevitable part of families, of relationships, of being, of friendships.

And for people to know how to rectify conflicts and be able to speak their truth in a way that is grounded and where they feel heard and where they can be compassionate,

that's a very, very powerful skill. If

you can learn that in your family, you're going to be very well suited for life. That's the first question. The

life. That's the first question. The

second question about energy vampires.

So, it's a very interesting thing because someone can't be an energy vampire unless you let them take your energy, you know? So, it's like it's to, you know, to some degree, right? And so,

and it could be that in certain families there's a person who could be taking more energy and someone doesn't know how to protect themselves. And then in those situations, the person who doesn't know has to do everything they can to learn

to protect themselves and to create really, really good boundaries. And so I think that you know because you can also think about energy vampires are the people who need to be taken care of and

then they will pair up with the caretakers and they'll be a perfect hand and glove relationship that you know the energy vampires will be with the people who have so much energy to give and don't know how to do anything but to

give. Right? So it could be this

give. Right? So it could be this beautiful symbiosis until one or both parties decides it's not and then they decide to revamp things. But if you really do feel that somebody is negatively taking your energy and you

don't want that to be a part of your life, there's many different techniques that you can learn, you know, which I talk about in my book to be able to ground yourself and create the boundaries spiritually, energetically, and physically to protect yourself and

your energy.

>> It's interesting if you're in a dynamic with someone who you feel draws a lot of energy from you, when you start to create those boundaries, all of a sudden they don't want to be around you. Well,

because you served a purpose in their life and you can no longer serve that purpose and they really feel it.

>> Yeah. That everything shifts.

>> They need something from you. You can no longer give them what they need.

>> Let's talk about clairvoyance. Tell us

what you think about it. What your

research is discovering.

>> Yeah. So, I think clairvoyance is one of the many forms of intuition. And what is intuition? So, I love to dis, you know,

intuition? So, I love to dis, you know, intuition is an epipen phenomena of consciousness, right? That's one an

consciousness, right? That's one an emergent property of consciousness. And

another way of thinking about it is also the voice of the soul. It's like your connection to the deepest part of yourself. So you can get messages

yourself. So you can get messages through your intuition that are maybe even deeper than what you can get through your rational mind or more profound than what your emotions can

tell you. Right? So it's a very deep

tell you. Right? So it's a very deep voice. And how can you receive intuitive

voice. And how can you receive intuitive information? There are you know the four

information? There are you know the four clairees. Clairvoyance which uh which is

clairees. Clairvoyance which uh which is when you can see things in your mind's eye. Clare audience which is when you

eye. Clare audience which is when you can hear a voice like we're giving you information. Clare sentience which is

information. Clare sentience which is where you can feel something in your body and clare cognizance which is when you just know just by virtue of knowing right so those are four intuitive pathways that you can you know receive

information. Clairvoyance I think is

information. Clairvoyance I think is super super interesting. And to be clear also you know we talk about hearing voices and seeing things. Those can be incredibly powerful intuitive properties

for us to develop in our lives. And this

is what psychics and intuitives can do.

And there are also people who are very very sick and do not know how to control those very things. They can hear voices and see things and not stop it and then be diagnosed with schizophrenia, be put

on medication and their life goes down a downward spiral. And so I think that be

downward spiral. And so I think that be being able to develop those capacities within oneself in a safe healthy way is an amazing thing and deepens one int

one's intuition. But it's also important

one's intuition. But it's also important to recognize the other side that it's not always without its problems. >> I'm sorry. I I think everybody is entirely more comfortable with the

notion that you could just like hear things than I am.

>> Let's talk about the four. Let's dive

into it together because I love when you when you're like, "Wait, what?"

>> I'm like, everybody's like, "Oh, you know how you can like hear things and it tells you what to do?" No, that's when you call the doctor and you say, "I either need more pills or I'll meet you at the ER."

>> Totally. really no and I I always, you know, I'm very intuitive, but I can never hear things and I always want to hear things and I'm always listening thinking that today I'm going to hear it and I never do. So, you know,

>> Well, each person has a different modality often that is their primary modality.

>> Totally.

>> I'm so Wait, wait, wait, hold on. I'm

not Jonathan. I'm not ready for this.

You're telling me that there are people I literally am this years old when I'm finding this out. There are people who hear things routinely.

>> Lee Harris when he came on the show and and talked about hearing information what that was a voice other than their own. Now that's an external channel of

own. Now that's an external channel of some information in the universe but other people have it as another version of their own voice.

>> Sorry I I'm literally this I'm not this is not me acting. I just like this hadn't occurred to me because I know people like hear voices and like oh it's different than hallucinations but I

never thought of channeling as this kind of receiving in this kind of category.

Right. So you said clairvoyance is a visualizing clare audience is a hearing >> hearing. Clare sensience is feeling

>> hearing. Clare sensience is feeling >> feeling in your body or or knowing emotional like an emotional knowing or feeling something in your body.

>> And then clare cognizance is >> is you just know it like it comes as a fun >> knowing. Uhhuh.

>> knowing. Uhhuh.

These are new words for me. I like

learning new words.

>> They're fun words. They're very fun words. And I wouldn't say that they're

words. And I wouldn't say that they're necessarily scientific words. I'm more

in the spiritual community words, but I think that they're relevant for how people receive intuitive guidance and intuitive information. And they also map

intuitive information. And they also map on to schizophrenia and psychosis. The

other side of this, >> you mentioned the idea of the soul and intuition being a connection to our soul's knowing. Where do you think this

soul's knowing. Where do you think this information lives? Is it in us? Is it

information lives? Is it in us? Is it

outside of us? Are we part of a big computer simulation?

How do you imagine it?

>> Also, what is it? Right? Like what are we talking I don't mean to sound like Bill Clinton, but like what are we what is is >> Yeah. Okay. Let's let's first address

>> Yeah. Okay. Let's let's first address what is is okay is is no. So we exist here as human beings but

no. So we exist here as human beings but I think that we are not alone here and there's many different you know places to tap in for information and one of the highest forms of places that you can tap

in is the infinite field and this is the fe you know what people describe as an infinite field of knowledge and it has information answers it has you know there's this thing called the accashic records which is you know if you believe

in that >> we know it well >> when people are hearing voices and seeing things they're tapping into very very different things because some people are getting beautifully inspired

divine information helping them to make the most important decisions in their life in the right way and other people are getting voices to kill themselves and kill others. Okay. So let's be very

clear that people are not always tapping into the same thing and where you are and where your you know frequency is where the mind your mind's frequency is is what you're tapping into. So you want

to get your frequency high. You want to get on the right channels. How to do that, you know. Um so Al Powers at Yale, one of our uh scientists, neuroscientists and researchers is

actually studying precisely that. He

compares and contrasts voice healers or psychics with schizophrenics. And he

asked the question of what is it about voice hearers that enables them to use this intuitive clar audient information in the service of themselves and you know their clients. whereas

schizophrenics have no capacity to turn this off and it could be completely overwhelming and bad things could happen. So he's looking at the mechanism

happen. So he's looking at the mechanism of that and it's it's very different but I'm not sure that Al would have a concrete answer to exactly where it comes from but he probably would agree

with me that it comes from many different places >> but there are all these call them radio stations and it depends on where you are tuning your attention to know where you're receiving that information.

>> Totally. Totally. Yes. Exactly.

>> Since we're talking about the Akashic Records, an extension of this, I'm just going to ask. So, the telepathy tapes, you know, came on the scene of podcasting um last year and introduced

this concept. And I always have to say

this concept. And I always have to say this, we we can set aside the conversation about facilitated communication. Um and for people who

communication. Um and for people who don't believe in facilitated communication, we don't have to talk about it. So, I'm going to set that

about it. So, I'm going to set that aside. But you know, the telepathy tapes

aside. But you know, the telepathy tapes over the course of this season proposed that there is a a radio station that can

be tuned into, that there is a field of consciousness that people who are not in the same physical space can access and commune in outside of their physical

body.

Is this notion of telepathy an extension of an understanding that there's a field of knowledge all around us and we just need to learn to tune into it?

>> I think that that could very well be.

However, I don't know if we have the road map as to exactly how to tune in.

And I have very interestingly have numerous patients who tune into precisely that. You know, the the hill

precisely that. You know, the the hill that everybody from, you know, who are nonverbal uh autistics meet on in order to commune, right? I have had patients

like that who will describe going to spaces like this and being able to communicate with people like that.

Unfortunately, often times those very patients, it's hard to exist fully in this world because they're very much in this other world. And so I have found

that that sometimes if people are too tuned in to certain frequencies, it's hard to be fully grounded. This has been my clinical experience with people I have treated like this.

>> Okay. So what I'm thinking and you know, I've been seeing a psychiatrist since I was, you know, 15 years old. So, if you go into a psychiatrist's office in most

places in, you know, a materialist world, and if you were to say things, they would put you on medication that

would tamp down many of your systems. Meaning, you know, this would be by many psychiatrists

classified as as problematic. And I'm

not saying that it is problematic, but to have a new perspective of mental health, of mental capabilities, and of

the practice of psychiatry, I mean, it's a tremendous opening to be able to say what information is there that this person is either communicating or

receiving? How do you, you know, as a

receiving? How do you, you know, as a psychiatrist, how do you decide? Is it

your own intuition? Is it your own sense of this is what I was trained as a medical professional to do and this is what I've been trained as a human being to do. How do you manage something that

to do. How do you manage something that also has tremendous cultural variation?

You've spent time in I think over 70 countries where there are people who are given special cultural designations which we cannot appropriate but you know

a lot about these practices. Where does

it fit into a western model? Yeah, I

think that's such a great question and with respect specifically to um the non-verbal autistics or individuals who can have access to an

inner world or an inner world connected to many other people that others don't have. Some of these cases have been

have. Some of these cases have been indeed my hardest cases to treat. And

the reason is because within as a psychiatrist with a psychiatric toolbox if people are not able to really function in this world and are having

those kind of symptoms we have as one of the tools one of many tools in the toolbox antiscychotic medications and I have had people like this who I have treated with antisycchotics. It's

changed their life for the better and they have really really good healthy lives now.

>> But you turned you turned off the voices. Maybe there is something in

voices. Maybe there is something in there.

>> Correct. Correct. Yes. So, so that so in the cases where people were open to that, my experience has been very positive with helping people. There are

also I have had cases where people will have the voices and they're not open to the medication. And actually these

the medication. And actually these people have been hospitalized before and they were not open to the medication in the hospital and they were discharged from the hospital and because the hospital got frustrated with them after months and months of trying to convince

them to take medication. And these are individuals who are not sick enough to be hospitalized and not healthy enough to be functioning in society. And you

can't force anybody to take meds. And so

they love the fact that they have this inner world and this inner world is what they have but it also keeps them from being able to be fully functional. So

it's a very very complicated difficult case and or cases where you have to be in that in between space and you have to hold the space for the patient and the family to figure out what's right and

you can't force medications on anybody nor do you want to and you're there in case of an emergency in which case they can be hospitalized of course but it's hard it's very hard because the

family would like this person functioning in the way that they were before and this person just is unwilling and unable. Let's bring this to the

and unable. Let's bring this to the general population. Do you believe that

general population. Do you believe that it's everyone's unique capability as a human being to have a sense of intuition and to connect with it in whatever

format it comes in?

>> Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there's people who will value and rely on intuition much more and find much greater utility and use in their intuition and therefore seek to develop

it much more because of how they're wired because of value placed on it in in their society and family. And then

there's other people who are super rational and even if they are intuitive, their intuitive intuition comes through their rationality and they wouldn't even use the word intuition. It wouldn't you know and let's also define intuition a

little bit broadly a little bit more broadly. When I think about intuition I

broadly. When I think about intuition I would think about three types of intuition right the first type is type one intuition which you can think of as what no Nobel Prize winner Daniel

Conorman who wrote thinking fast and slow described as the fast thinking system what he described more as instinct. It's like a pattern

instinct. It's like a pattern recognition system where you know something and you don't even know why you know. You just recognize a pattern

you know. You just recognize a pattern and boom. That's type one intuition.

and boom. That's type one intuition.

>> Like I was at the doctor the other day and she was mentioning different things and like when you make that face of like I don't want to do that. Is that the same as intuition or that's just I don't want to do that.

>> Yeah. And and you you know for you like that face like that was she made a face and you immediately knew what that was.

You didn't think you didn't have to think hard to figure out what that face meant. You intuitively knew that was

meant. You intuitively knew that was like almost an instinct. Type two

intuition is the intuition that you're sitting in the room with someone and it's it's kind of like what you said m it's like you're with somebody but you know something without knowing why you know and it's not because they made a

certain facial gesture. It's like you're reading the signs but you don't even exactly know why you know. It's like you see somebody and you just have an intuition about that person. So it's

through and an example of that is um there's studies that have shown that people know when people are staring at them. So someone from behind you could

them. So someone from behind you could be staring at you and you will know.

>> Oh, >> and you don't know why you know, but you just know. You just are able to pick it

just know. You just are able to pick it up, right? So that's type two intuition.

up, right? So that's type two intuition.

And type three intuition is like twin telepathy on the other side of the world or when a mother knows that something's wrong with her child 80 100 miles away.

You just feel something's wrong. Are you

okay, sweetheart? You know, something like that. So three different types of

like that. So three different types of intuition, all technically with similar words, but very different meanings and phenomena.

>> Jonathan gets intuitions all the time. I

believe that we all have the capability to develop it. If someone wants to develop more intuition and feels like maybe they have the first experience,

but they really want to get this third or fourth where it's someone across the room or someone who they want to feel connected to who they may not be in the same physical space or they want

answers. They want intuitive guidance on

answers. They want intuitive guidance on what should I do with my life and they're not sure that Chad GPT has the best answer even though that's what it's used for. How do we begin to help

used for. How do we begin to help someone develop their intuition?

>> That is such an important question because often times intuition can indeed give you those answers that reason cannot. You can make your procon list

cannot. You can make your procon list but actually the answer is something much deeper than your pros and cons list. The pros and cons list helps you

list. The pros and cons list helps you to weigh the options and weigh the possibilities but it's not necessarily the answer to should I marry this person or what kind of work should I pursue you

know pursue the most important questions in life and often those are questions of the heart and soul and not necessarily procon questions and so I think that to

help people develop their intuition first you help them obviously develop their reason and create their procon list for whatever question it is but Then you also ask the person to do

whatever work they can to figure stuff out and then to please take a day or two just to put it aside but to ask if they are open to guidance and whatever that

they would want guidance from from your ancestors from God from you know to ask for that guidance and to be open to how that guidance will present and that guidance can present as a meaningful

coincidence. It could present as an

coincidence. It could present as an intuitive insight. It can present it at

intuitive insight. It can present it at starting to see something a new. It

could present as advice from someone that was unanticipated. You can see a movie that will put something into a new perspective for you. So I think that those are some ways that you do your

maximum work yourself through your pro and con list and your reason and then you put you you know ask for help. You

put forth the intention to have an intuitive insight and then you become open to receive that insight. Well, I

think it's important that we're not telling people to dismiss the logical mind. When we think about intuition,

mind. When we think about intuition, >> it's in conjunction. I've heard it described that, you know, the logical mind and the rational mind can see. It's

like driving at night. You can see us about that 200 m that the headlights provide, but the intuition may be able to see multiple uh lengths beyond that

because there's things that haven't happened yet that in the infinite field of awareness may be available to to understand or to know.

>> Precisely. Precisely. And these are, you know, spiritual and cobalistic concepts.

And the idea that that which we can see with our eyes and hear with our ears is only 1% of reality. And the idea is that 99% of reality is unseen and unheard.

And this is in contrast to the scientific universe where 100% of reality is seen and heard and subject to experimentation and you know all sorts of replication etc. And so this is a

very very different way to see life. Is

this all there is or is this a little piece of all there is part of a much bigger puzzle? Well, and I think also,

bigger puzzle? Well, and I think also, you know, this is the time to mention dark matter and dark energy, which actually when you take a, you know, the perspective of the universe, close to

100% of what's out there is actually unknown, right? On this kind of other

unknown, right? On this kind of other scale.

>> Absolutely. So it brings back the idea of how much of information is knowable outside of our five senses if only 1% is

knowable through our eyes and ears >> precisely which is why it's so important to develop our other ways of knowing.

And you know do you need to develop that? Are you going to be worse off if

that? Are you going to be worse off if you don't? Maybe or maybe not. Because

you don't? Maybe or maybe not. Because

in the world of science which is the currency of exchange in the western world this is all there is. So you don't necessarily need anything outside of it.

But there are some brilliant scientists who are deeply spiritual like Francis Collins etc. who really bring in a spiritual perspective and if you can enhance your intuition that often can

help all aspects of your work because you can receive information in other ways other than just through rational mind.

>> Tell us what you've researched or your colleagues have researched that you're aware of. I you mentioned um

aware of. I you mentioned um clairvoyance or people who are using mediumship.

What can you tell us about those med modalities as it relates to you know accessing the infinite field of consciousness for practical and tangible benefit whether it be material benefit

or emotional benefit?

>> Yeah. I mean I can tell you in my own clinical practice that I have had patients who have lost loved ones use mediums to connect with those loved ones. And often times for my patients

ones. And often times for my patients and I've had maybe seven or eight patients like this over the course of like 15 20 years and those experiences

have never been neutral. They've been

never negative either generally positive or very very positive that everybody especially the doubters because sometimes I have a doubter who is stuck

after the loss of a loved one and can't move forward and the medium is actually the person that opens things up for them a little bit and they've had incredible

experiences that really and let's also be clear not all mediums are created equal not all mediums are real but there are some out there who are incredibly

talented and are able to connect and are able to provide people with deeply healing information. And so if you are

healing information. And so if you are going to do that, please make sure to use a medium that's been vetted by somebody that you know and trust um and you know somebody who's very very good.

>> Without getting into specifics, what are some of the types of information that people are getting from these exchanges through a mediumship that are offering that kind of healing? I'm gonna go

ahead. I'm going to be a big like

ahead. I'm going to be a big like devil's advocate here. I've been to many channelers. I have. I've been to

channelers. I have. I've been to mediums. I've talked to psychics. Yes,

I've gone to ones that might be more legitimate and others that might be less legitimate. I'm just here to say that

legitimate. I'm just here to say that usually they they confirm that they are legitimate, which can be done any number of ways, right? They usually tell you

things that in theory they shouldn't know. But just to be Debbie Downer here,

know. But just to be Debbie Downer here, the message is usually, "I'm sorry I hurt you. You're going to do amazing

hurt you. You're going to do amazing things. I release you of any connection

things. I release you of any connection that's painful. And I never meant to do

that's painful. And I never meant to do that. It wasn't my soul's intent. You're

that. It wasn't my soul's intent. You're

going to be fine."

>> And was that when when you have had those experiences, was that helpful to you in any way?

>> No.

I guess my question is like what is the specificity that we can ask for if we're trying to access information from beyond

because I get it like love, peace, coexistence, like I get it but I think people want to know personally why am I

sick? How do I get better? How does life

sick? How do I get better? How does life not feel so difficult? And why is the world such a mess? Right? Those are big big questions, right? And I feel as

though yeah, those are they're really philosophical questions and I'm sure that a good channeler could give you guidance on that. But often times those

questions are also questions for us to answer, you know, and of like we're the ones to make sense of our lives and the mess of why things happen, why things

didn't happen. And could we get a

didn't happen. And could we get a elevated perspective from a psychic medium, Lee Harris, etc.? Absolutely.

Could we get an opinion from a really good elevated psychic? Absolutely. Could

we also get someone to say something totally cliche that is meaningless to us? Of course. We've all had those

us? Of course. We've all had those experiences as you have you know aptly pointed out May but I feel like yeah often times um I don't know if those are

necessarily you know it it's very interesting because I have a talk I often give on on spirituality and I talk about the pitfalls or toxic parts of spirituality and one of them is

addiction to psychics and mediums and there are people who become addicted to psychics and mediums that for a little bit of money you give somebody control of your life in order for them to, you

know, tell you back what is true and to give you certainty about something and does it end up being true or not? Maybe

sometimes, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't depending, you know, and and there's also some exceptionally good psychics out there. I've certainly met those. also meant the opposite as I'm

those. also meant the opposite as I'm sure we all have, you know, but it's uh I think the our difficulty in fully

owning our lives and our desire to give over control and how addictive that could be when it appears that somebody can peek into the future and give you certainty and it's essentially an

addiction to psychics is an addiction to control. So it's very important also

control. So it's very important also kind of to realize now with mediums sometimes what happens is an individual has passed on and a person could be so

stuck in grief that they cannot move forward and sometimes a medium by enabling that person to connect with the person who has passed and for the medium to prove the legit legitimacy of the

mediumship enables this person to know wow this person has passed but they're still with me in some form and I still have a form of communication with them and that is

for some people really what they need to move forward. I've certainly had that.

move forward. I've certainly had that.

That's not something I advocate or but in times when there's been a suicide that also is very very powerful.

>> The idea of being addicted to certainty trying to get that. Some people pursue intuition because they're like they just want certainty and answers. And

the joke is that like you're never going to have certainty no matter how strong your intuition is. You may be led to the next best solution, but it still is likely not going to turn out exactly how

you imagined or thought or wanted.

There's always this element of surprise in the world and the world changing and evolving that we can't escape.

>> It's true. It's true. You know, and if if you want to go even deeper into that, you know, like different psychics like different psychics read different things. There are people who can read

things. There are people who can read the accashic records. There are people who can read you. There are people who can read you um your uh third eye or they can read your connection to the heavens. Reading these two different

heavens. Reading these two different things will give you two totally different readings, you know. So, it's

like you don't exactly know what person what people are reading when they are read when they are reading you, you know, and where they're getting their information.

>> We talk to a lot of different people who do a lot of interesting things in the universe. I've never learned as much as

universe. I've never learned as much as talking to you about the things that people hear and read and see. People can

read your third eye.

>> Yes.

>> Tell us the difference between reading the crown and reading the third eye.

>> Absolutely. So, so when people are reading your third eye, they're essentially reading your own intuition.

What do you feel? So, you ask someone, "What does this guy think about me?" And

what they're going to read, they're not going to go to the guy and and to that.

They're actually going to go to you and read what you think that the guy thinks about you and then reflect that back to you. So, that's that as opposed to

you. So, that's that as opposed to reading from the crown. And if they they can also read from their own crown and get like a download from technically the divine or from their spirit guides. So

there's a lot of different ways. There's

a lot of different ways and you can also have different spirit guides that might have a different opinion on a certain matter. So you might be getting you know

matter. So you might be getting you know different uh things coming in for that.

So it's it's very interesting.

>> Reading your third eye is like being in a medio echo chamber. You're just being reinforced what you believe and then you're like, "Oh my gosh, that psychic is so powerful,

but all they're doing is telling you what you feel instead of what an objective reality is."

>> Yeah. But and and to be clear, sometimes for somebody to reflect back to you exactly what you feel when you didn't tell them any of that could be so incredibly powerful. You might not even

incredibly powerful. You might not even know that you feel it. And then they might reflect it back to you and then you're like, "Wow, that's amazing." But

that's a very different reading. But

that doesn't make it true.

>> I've been accused by more than one ex of feeling like I knew them better than they knew themselves. But I still think I was right.

>> Maybe you were reading their third eye.

>> That's what I'm saying. We call it bossy knowit all controlling girlfriend. Maybe

it's deeply intuitively aligned with the universe girlfriend.

>> I like that. That's much Yeah. Much more

catchy for sure. This touches on something that we actually talked to um Thomas Campbell about the notion of where to get information from. You can

get information from the larger consciousness system. You can get

consciousness system. You can get information from an individual's consciousness or from your own consciousness and that information will be different. We think that oh if I go

be different. We think that oh if I go off and try to get intuition that intuition will be objective but the same

uh tuning placing your consciousness is is important because that information will be different. I'm fascinated what you said about uh guides and guardian

angels. The first question would be do

angels. The first question would be do does everyone have guides and guardian angels and the second question would be why are their perspectives different?

Are they not working towards some goal that is that is synchronized in some way?

>> I do believe that most people have some sort of angelic or guardian angels, archangels, you know, pro protecting them on some level and uh different people to different degrees given what

their purpose is in the world and what they're doing and how they live their life and I guess what they need. And um

I think that just different guides could provide different information.

>> Maybe there's a a work guide and a love guide and like a physical health guide and you can't ask all the guides the same questions.

>> Absolutely. That you have different, you know, and you can think about like everyone has different talents, abilities, interests, charms and that we essentially are kind of guided through that. And a lot of these things we don't

that. And a lot of these things we don't develop. We just kind of are come into

develop. We just kind of are come into the world with them. And so we have guides that help us as one way of being.

Guides that help us to develop these ways of being in the world.

>> Do you have a relationship with your guides? Did you develop that?

guides? Did you develop that?

>> You know, I do and I have um I often will ask them questions, but when I get my intuition, I don't know who it's coming from. I don't know if it's from

coming from. I don't know if it's from my guides, if it's from God, if it's from myself, but I definitely know when I have an intuitive hit or insight.

>> What's your primary mode of knowing?

Clare cognizance when I just know without knowing how I know something will just come into my mind as a thought. And I think it's because my

thought. And I think it's because my thinking capacity is so overdeveloped relative to my other capacities that that's like the easiest way for information to come into my mind or into my being.

>> You know, I've tried to develop relationship with guides.

>> But you know better than all of them.

No, it's never. I've never sort of gotten clarity. When after our episode

gotten clarity. When after our episode with some some um people who have access to guides, I was like, "Oh, I do believe there are guides all around." And I

believe that and and I have asked for guidance from guides, but I don't believe that that information comes from a specific guide. I don't have a sense

of a counsel around me um or different roles that they may play. But I do feel like I get information um often through auditory, often through uh just a

knowing um or an empathetic sense that the voice that I hear is a version of myself. Um not not some someone else. I

myself. Um not not some someone else. I

don't hear like a British voice communicating with me and telling me what's up.

>> You hear voices, Jonathan?

>> Not multiple voices. I hear a version of my own voice.

>> Um, some people can call that a version of themselves. Maybe others call it a

of themselves. Maybe others call it a higher self. I'm curious, Dr. Esome, how

higher self. I'm curious, Dr. Esome, how do you understand a higher self? Is it

the same as a guide or an angel? Is it

just another part of our knowing? What

is it to you?

>> Yeah, I I love um how you wrote or said uh another part of our knowing. I think

that that's what it is. You know, we have all of our aspects of ourselves in one. You know,

you can think of it in the Freudian sense, the id, ego and superego, right?

The id is our most primitive uh um basic instincts. The um superego is our

instincts. The um superego is our morality and the ego is sort of the intersection or the integration of those. And the higher self also is the

those. And the higher self also is the part of us that already knows what is best for us in any given situation. and

ideas that you can tap into that part even in your current form because you know there's many different notions but some of them are that uh time is a

little bit of an illusion. So you can go forward in time to yourself that knows the future a little bit. You can go back in time and talk to that self. There's a

lot of like inner child work. There's

working with um younger parts of yourself. There's parts work. So all of

yourself. There's parts work. So all of those are ways of being able to tap into all the different parts of yourself. And

so the higher self is the part that already knows the more evolved conscious part that has already lived through and metabolized and grown through what you are going through now.

>> And potentially that part is outside of the influence of whatever unconscious programming we were speaking about before. It is free of some of the this

before. It is free of some of the this lifetime karmic residue. may have been the part of us that has stayed with us if we believe in past lives throughout

many versions of our existence.

>> Yeah, it it could be part of the transcendent soul. The part that's

transcendent soul. The part that's transcendent that you know has gone on and on and is our solar spirit that is the inddeatiguable part. The part that we will never lose and that keeps

growing and expanding always.

>> The conversation about mediumship and helping people see something differently. We spoke um with Terresa

differently. We spoke um with Terresa Caputo, >> the Long Island medium, >> and in that episode, she, you know, just had a sense of something

that she shared with me that really impacted me in a way that I had never considered before. My family had um a

considered before. My family had um a significant tragedy when I was 14 that marked the next 30 plus years of our lives. And

lives. And what she discussed was something that happened in the non-physical realm. Um,

for people who haven't heard the story or the episode, uh, my older brother was severely injured in a car accident and he almost died. And what she talked about was when he was

in that decision space between life and death that my dad's father intervened and helped send him back to be to

continue to be alive in this world. And

that the role that he that my grandfather played was really to support my father. And as much as I had

my father. And as much as I had considered the family impact of that situation, I had mostly seen it from my brother's perspective, what it would mean to be

injured, I saw it from my perspective. I

had seen it partly from my dad's perspective, but I had never really understood the message that she provided in that moment. And imagine

thinking about something, experiencing it for 35 years, and now all of a sudden there's a new angle to it that I had never experienced before simply by this

woman who knows where the information came from. Sharing that little insight,

came from. Sharing that little insight, it was very powerful.

>> Wow, that sounds Yes. incredibly

powerful. And it's also like when you received this information, did it feel did you have a knowing that it was indeed true and did it fit within your scheme of how you understood the world or was it an immediate expansion of your

own system?

>> I had never considered it and it was immediately integrated. Like my system

immediately integrated. Like my system did not fight against that information to say, "Oh, I don't know. This feels

off. It doesn't like it was a it's like I never uh considered it." And when I received it, it immediately plugged in and expanded my understanding of the

entire experience in a way that felt much more complete and whole.

>> It sounds so powerful. And this is, you know, we talked about the definition of a miracle being a shift in perception.

And sometimes that kind of information that leads you to see something a little bit differently and changes your whole perception on something so vital and traumatic that happened in your life changes your whole life. So that was

sounds like a miraculous thing that happened.

>> Can you tell us a little bit about your personal awakening? Was there a time

personal awakening? Was there a time where you were purely a materialist without an experience of extra sensory abilities, intuition, without a

relationship with your guides? How did

you go from pre Dr. Essum now to the version of yourself you are today?

>> Had anyone told me that I would be a spiritual person 25 years ago, I would have laughed. Spirituality was the

have laughed. Spirituality was the furthest thing from my mind. And I went through my undergraduate training, studied biology and philosophy, medical schooling, residency, no spirituality

because it just wasn't who I was. I had

too many things. I was studying for medical school. I was in a relationship.

medical school. I was in a relationship.

I was doing normal things, you know. And

then interesting things started to happen towards the end of my psychiatry residency that led me to start to think, wow, maybe the world works a little bit differently than I've always been

taught. I was getting interested in the

taught. I was getting interested in the concept of a soul because I met somebody at the time who I thought was my soulmate. He did not end up being my

soulmate. He did not end up being my soulmate, but it was definitely got me interested in this whole process. And I

remember having gone to a synagogue and was listening to a lecture on the soul and I was walking back home and I felt drawn into this ice cream shop to go have an ice cream. I was like, "Okay."

Eating my ice cream. This psychic and a young child come up to me and the psychic says, "I'm a psychic. I have a message for you. Can I give you a message?"

message?" >> No.

>> And I said, "Okay, sure." Sounds

relatively innocuous in New York City.

So she sits down and this woman starts telling me all of these deep truths about my life that she has no possible way of knowing including the name of the guy that I had a crush on and just it

just comes out of her. And after that I was like what in the world happened here? Because here up until this point I

here? Because here up until this point I had been taught that all of our minds are separate and distinct and I'm living in my world. You're living in world your world. And this woman literally, I don't

world. And this woman literally, I don't know if she read my mind, if she read something up there, but she knew things that she had no and it was it wasn't in my journal even. It wasn't on Facebook.

It wasn't There's no way this woman could have known. And she knew.

>> Did you buy her an ice cream?

>> I bought her a little. Yeah. No, I ended up working with her for a while uh to, you know, that was kind of the beginning. And it was then that I also

beginning. And it was then that I also these messages would start coming in. I

had this dream of a sign that said Cabala revealed. And my mom had studied

Cabala revealed. And my mom had studied Cabala a while ago and she'd sent me books. So I like maybe this is a book

books. So I like maybe this is a book from my bookshelf. No. And then a few weeks later I'm walking to have dinner with a friend and I saw the exact sign for my dream. Cabala revealed. It was

the New York Cabala Center. So I walked in and I was like, "Okay, well this is for my dream." I signed up and took a class and the Cabala Center started to give me a new framework for how to see and understand all of the stuff that I

was learning. So the differentiation

was learning. So the differentiation between the scientific framework that I had learned in the many years prior and this framework that I was just starting to learn. So very interesting.

to learn. So very interesting.

>> Was there a moment where your intuition sort of opened? How did you go from sort of receiving and starting to receive that first reading and the signs and

starting to be guided a little bit, it sounds like through synchronicity into what sounds like a much more integrated spiritual life where you are literally

integrating spirituality and and intuition on a daily basis.

>> Yeah, that was very gradual. It was um having these things happen in my life and then processing it and starting to understand what exactly is happening.

How do I understand this? And then

eventually within seven years gathering enough patient cases to write a book about it with 50 cases from my private practice and then eventually publishing this and sort of you know rebranding

myself as a spiritual psychiatrist, somebody who integrates psychiatry and spirituality and then doing this at Yale to start this mental health and spirituality center there. So, it was it was it was slow and gradual and it's

also continuous because there are people who are incredibly talented at receiving intuitive information. I'm intuitive and

intuitive information. I'm intuitive and it does come to me, but I wish that I could further and expand my capacities and I'm always looking to do that.

>> Do you believe that we have soulmates? I

believe, you know, certainly that, you know, perhaps there have been past lives and perhaps there are other souls that we've come in contact with that have been important to us and there could be certain lessons and certain karmic

patterns and sure and a soulmate and uh you know just because somebody is a soulmate does not mean that everything is going to be perfect and roses with this person. It means that there is a

this person. It means that there is a karmic pattern and it's an important karmic pattern to figure out and understand. And so absolutely I I like,

understand. And so absolutely I I like, you know, the very romanticized concept of soulmates, but I also don't think it's something that needs to hold people back from having love, joy, and uh

fulfillment in their lives.

>> How should people understand karmic patterns?

>> So karmic patterns are based on the idea of lessons and lifetimes. It's the idea that this isn't our only lifetime that our soul has come in here with, you

know, many past lifetimes before us and certain things that we have done and certain karma that we have accumulated that we clear out in this lifetime through our actions, through sometimes

pain and suffering and sometimes through positive choices. And that, you know,

positive choices. And that, you know, there's also people who believe that there's no more karma, that you can just release all your karma, which is a beautiful notion if that's indeed the case. But the idea that, you know, we

case. But the idea that, you know, we talked about repetition compulsions and soul corrections and things that seem to come up in this lifetime over and over again as challenges or hardships, much

to our chagrin and dismay and despite our best efforts to change it, often times those are our so-called karmic patterns. There are different words to

patterns. There are different words to describe similar things that we have to work through in this lifetime to move beyond.

you've studied um so many different kinds of spiritual and religious traditions as sort of part of the foundation for the work that you do.

What do you find is universal? You know,

you've studied in South America, in India, in Israel, you know, all over the world. What are the common themes that

world. What are the common themes that you think in many ways science might be trying to catch up with and explain but that seem to be thousands of years old

universal truths? If you had to say what

universal truths? If you had to say what are the top three things that you feel the great mystical spiritual traditions

have in common? So I think that the three universal truths that are across religious and spiritual traditions are

number one the universality of love as being one of the most important things if not the most important things in this world and the definitions of love are

varied and that includes selflove love of others love of God that's number one. Number two is the importance of service and being able to

give of oneself and service through all the different means and service as far as your uniqueness in this world. The

way that you can be of service in a way that nobody else can and also just a devotion to receiving for the sake of giving to others and ensuring that you

have a way to create that flow in your life that you are always giving. And the

third thing is purpose which has to do with um giving as well but it's much deeper.

It's also just having a sense of why you are here one's purpose in life and the work that one needs to do in this world to actualize their their full potential.

So I think that those are three of the top universal truths that pervade different religious and spiritual traditions. That's really interesting

traditions. That's really interesting and very comforting. Um I I had a feeling you'd say love also because you know from a lot of the incredible psilocybin uh and therapy assisted you

know even ketamine you know there's a lot of um evidence that once we stimulate you know the ability of the brain to let go and to kind of remove

that veil of ego remove that veil of the defenses and and the organizing principles the default mode network.

Once that veil is lifted, what is there is an openness that that most of us probably don't even remember because the last time we purely felt it, we were probably babies, right? Or infants for

for many of us, right? So, I knew that love would be there, but this notion of kind of service and purpose, um, I really love those two. And I know there are many others. I just asked you kind

of, you know, for your top three. Kind

of another adjacent question. Where do

you see the use of psychedelics, you know, in terms of trauma processing? You

know, I'm talking to more and more people who have done the medication route and this one works, but then you don't want to have sex or you can't have an orgasm because of side effects and,

you know, you kind of like keep going back to talk therapy and it's kind of like, well, this is what happened this week. I don't know. And, you know, it's

week. I don't know. And, you know, it's it's not getting to some of that deeper stuff. Many people don't have the money

stuff. Many people don't have the money to keep going to the kind of therapy or even to maintain the kind of medication regimen that many of us need if something's not working and you have to

try something else. Many people are turning to psychedelics both to take to kind of take the weight off of their existence, right? People are

existence, right? People are experimenting with micro doing which you can do with psilocybin or LSD or other things as well. Um but also people are taking larger journeys that you know if

you read the celebrity accounts it's like I did Iaska in ohigh and my life is better you know but what is your perspective on is this a shortcut to

spiritual growth is it a shortcut to mental healing is it the transformation that some people are needing and where does it fit into the the practice of medicine as you were trained

>> so I think that psychedelics offer not just a novel neurobiological mechanism for some of the most treatment resistant psychiatric and mental health conditions

like alcoholism, depression, anxiety, uh etc. But for many people, they also offer a connection to spirit and that is what makes them so unique. And in that

connection to spirit, there is something very innately healing and creating of wholeness which people so desperately desire. And oftenimes they come for

desire. And oftenimes they come for precisely that. And there's been many

precisely that. And there's been many studies showing at John Hopkins that the greater the spiritual effect or connection, the greater the mystical experience, the greater the healing

potential of that psychedelic journey for a person.

>> Can you say that again? There's um work that's been shown at John Hopkins and also at NYU showing that the greater the

spiritual effect or mystical experience within a psychedelic journey and this is specifically with psilocybin but it's possible that it also could be generalized

the greater the anti-anxiety effect of the treatment or the anti yeah the greater the mental health benefit to the patient. Why do you think that is?

patient. Why do you think that is?

>> Because I think that we are ultimately biocsychosocial, spiritual creatures, biological psychological social and spiritual. And often times people forget

spiritual. And often times people forget the spiritual part. And when they're able to have that connection that reconnects them to spirit, they start to feel whole again.

>> I have a also I mean there's also, you know, mechanistic uh ways that we can explain some of that. You're flooding a system, right? You're flooding a system

system, right? You're flooding a system with serotonin. You're flooding a system

with serotonin. You're flooding a system with oxytocin, right? So, you're kind of laying this this neurochemical

foundation for ease, right? So that when you'd normally go down that anxiety groove, it could be, and I haven't looked up receptors in a minute, you

know, in this arena, it could be that there are more receptors available for that positivity and there are less receptors available or taken or docked

to prevent that. So you're pot you're looking to potentiate. That's what

these, you know, kind of things are supposed to do. They're supposed to potentiate a longer term health outcome.

And that's why it, you know, by contrast, you know, Paul Stamuts has one of the most fantastic examples, you know, a lifelong stutterer, lifelong, you know, kind of troubled soul and he

accidentally took like five times a hero dose of psilocybin by himself. He never

stuttered again. And like his entire life opened up and he has stayed that way. He had a profound spiritual

way. He had a profound spiritual awakening relating to that, you know, connection. For most people, it's not

connection. For most people, it's not that significant, but that notion that it can potentiate other positive decisions, other positive experiences, you know, it's kind of like when you meet someone and they've just fallen in

love and everything is amazing to them and like everything tastes better and they look better. You know, that's what it is. It's all of those goodies that

it is. It's all of those goodies that that hormone is providing you with as well.

>> And potentially sensing that there is a spiritual connection to our lives and accessing that is the key to help helping that create all the

neurochemical soup that we want.

>> I was actually just on a cruise with Paul Stamitz and Rick Doblin in Antarctica. We went on this cruise for

Antarctica. We went on this cruise for insider expeditions and there was 200 people all studying in some way psychedelics. It was the most

psychedelics. It was the most interesting experience, an amazing amazing experience. And there was also

amazing experience. And there was also as one of the people kind of as the entertainers but also like a trainer on this trip was this incredible guy named Brandon who has the world record for

holding one's breath underwater. It's

almost like 30 minutes. What?

Unbelievable.

>> Yeah. And he taught he was teaching us how to do this on this trip. And but

Brandon way back told me his story which I think he'd be okay of my sharing. He's

not a patient or anything. He had really really bad OCD and one time he took a very high level or dose of LSD and it completely did away with it and then

eventually he micro dosed it for 6 months and completely did away with his OCD. So this is the examples that you

OCD. So this is the examples that you gave is individuals with chronic lifelong conditions having healing effects from conditions that are very

rarely healed. So it's very powerful. I

rarely healed. So it's very powerful. I

mean these are obviously case studies.

This is not every other person, but there is very powerful healing potential here.

>> How long can you hold your breath underwater?

>> Well, thank you for asking that question, ma'am. I was hoping you'd ask.

question, ma'am. I was hoping you'd ask.

So, I um came in with about like two minutes, but then after working with Brandon for a few days, I'm almost up to four and a half minutes. So, which for me is like huge.

>> Wait, wait. So, hold on. I actually want to ask about this because I was thinking about this. Someone referenced it in

about this. Someone referenced it in another podcast. So most of us think

another podcast. So most of us think like I can't hold my breath for that long, right? Like that's what you would

long, right? Like that's what you would think. But the fact is it's kind of and

think. But the fact is it's kind of and I I equate this to like, you know, natural labor, like giving birth without drugs. Most people are like, I can't do

drugs. Most people are like, I can't do that, right? It's like, well, yeah,

that, right? It's like, well, yeah, everybody can. It's just there's some

everybody can. It's just there's some preparation involved. So you can learn

preparation involved. So you can learn to do things that seem difficult, impossible, whatever. So it has to do

impossible, whatever. So it has to do with basically calming your system.

Correct.

>> Calming your system and recognizing that as Brandon said that the urge to breathe is a biological drive to protect you, but you can overcome that with your will

and with calming yourself. And he also is the kind of person he's like, I'm okay with all options. You know, if you're doing something like that, it's

invariably risky and he takes the risk.

So he was the perfect person to hold this, you know, record and it was fascinating to and he worked with Olympic athletes to help him expand their lung capacity. He's just this brilliant amazing man.

>> Why doesn't it cause brain damage?

>> Well, lack of oxygen to the brain will cause brain damage. Sorry, I'll let Dr. >> But if you're Yeah. And if you're not breathing for 30 minutes, explain the

mechanism because lay people are like, "Oh, we've been taught that the brain needs oxygen and if you deprive it of oxygen for a certain amount of time,

there's going to be a consequence." How

is this man holding his breath for that amount of time? Is it similar to the yogis who just slow all the systems of their body down?

>> Yes. And that's exactly what it is. And

so you're going to have to obviously talk to him and have him on, which I would highly recommend. But as I understand it, that's exactly what it is. First, he does a few exercises to

is. First, he does a few exercises to maximize to the degree that we are able our oxygenation capacity through certain breath work. He puts as much oxygen into

breath work. He puts as much oxygen into our lungs as possible. And then he does he uh mentally as well as physically teaches a relaxation technique to enable

us to go very very deep into the breatholding.

>> You're like hibernating. You're

basically you're you're you're metabolically hibernating. So you're not

metabolically hibernating. So you're not depriving the brain of oxygen in the same way. You're also not requiring that

same way. You're also not requiring that the brain do tasks. The less you are making this sort of process taxing. You

know, it's like when you if you've ever been in a critical accident, the more you freak out, the faster you're going to lose blood, right? Like calming the system down. And it's not unlike labor.

system down. And it's not unlike labor.

It's like any of these very very potentially excruciating situations, there's a reframe that reframes not only your mind but your physiology as well.

>> How was it for you going those four plus minutes? Did it have a spiritual

minutes? Did it have a spiritual component whereby you were transcending the perceived limits of your physical body and and accessing something else like what what was what did it feel like

for you? it, you know, it was because

for you? it, you know, it was because Antarctica was that as well because I felt like for, you know, nine days I was in a space that I was breathing the cleanest possible air with no industrialization, no urbanization, and

it felt so connected to nature, to the divine, to these amazing people on my boat. And um it did actually feel that

boat. And um it did actually feel that way in concert with everything else, but it's not something I've necessarily kept up. So I don't know if if today I were

up. So I don't know if if today I were to do it, it would have continued, but it made me think that I really need to work with Brandon and this is something that one day I really want to commit to and see what is the potential for what

is the human potential for that. Yeah,

this this leads to um a question that I wanted to get into regarding Cabala and some of that specific spiritual um tradition. But what made me kind of

tradition. But what made me kind of think of it is like, you know, when we fast in the Jewish calendar, we do dry fasts. And there are two 25-hour dry

fasts. And there are two 25-hour dry fasts that we do. One is Yumkapur and the other um falls in the summer on Tishaba. But people always ask me like,

Tishaba. But people always ask me like, "How do you do you can't live, you know, without food and water for a day? you

must be starving all the time. And I

remind people that when you fast like that, you you're not out like going to work making, you know, three meals a day and two snacks. I mean, when my kids were little, I would do that and fast.

But the idea is what if you place yourself in an environment where less is required of you metabolically so that you can focus on not the external, but the things that are inside of you. And

our rabbi would always teach like you get to be like an angel. Like angels

don't have to eat or drink. like that's

what the the experience the spiritual experience of fasting and being in prayer and meditation in that time like that's what it's for. I wonder if you

can talk a little bit specifically about we've had people mention Cabala here and there and I mentioned Cabala here and there, but can you tell us specifically about what the specialness is for you of

that particular spiritual tradition, especially in terms of the way you kind of see the world and the information that exists for you spiritually?

>> Yeah. And I, you know, my perception of the fasts that you describe are very similar to yourself, miam, in that that was what really I learned in Cabala that

we um don't focus on the physical meals in order to have the internal spiritual meals. And we have, you know, five

meals. And we have, you know, five spiritual meals based on like the five different uh prayers that you do throughout the course of the 25-h hour period on Yumkipur and then again for,

you know, the other fast. And I also think it's just such a good, healthy, beautiful thing. um to cleanse your body

beautiful thing. um to cleanse your body of all food and water and give your body the opportunity to rest of that. And

there's many different cultures and traditions that use fasting in such powerful ways that are underutilized in our country. In Russia, for instance, um

our country. In Russia, for instance, um fasting was ways of getting rid of cancer and getting rid like it was it was really a reversal and dry fasts were more powerful that but in with dry fast

you have to be in nature. You can't even shower with a dry fast. But there's like extensive books written about this and there's a science to this. That's not

something that's safely practiced here.

Here we usually people will do a juice fast or those are also wonderful and healthy. But in a world where there's

healthy. But in a world where there's all of these toxins coming at us all the time through the food we eat, through our environment, etc. Vaccine and detox in general is such an important part, I think, of mental and physical well-being

that's often not talked about.

What is it specifically about what you've studied through the cobalistic traditions that have provided you with information about our spiritual

existence or how we are set to function in this world as spiritual beings?

>> Yeah. So, I learned so many important lessons and so many things that I've passed on to so many patients and written about in my books. And one of the most important things is that all of

us have essentially lessons to learn and um I guess certain things to to get through in this lifetime. And there's

two ways in which in which we can grow as a person. We can grow proactively or we can grow reactively. Proactively is

making choices to be the best versions of ourselves. To be able to go against

of ourselves. To be able to go against our nature, do which is that which is more difficult. Have moral courage. act

more difficult. Have moral courage. act

with integrity. Look at the parts of us that maybe aren't perfect and start to you know make shifts in the other direction. So that is proactive growth

direction. So that is proactive growth and whatever growth we can't do proactively we will do reactively and that is growth through pain and suffering. Pain and suffering are an

suffering. Pain and suffering are an inevitable part of life and cobalistically they believe that the more proactive growth you do the less you have to do reactively through pain and suffering. So I thought that was a

and suffering. So I thought that was a very interesting concept. It's something

that I often will pass along to my clients and patients so we can think together. What does proactive growth in

together. What does proactive growth in this situation look like? What does

going against your nature look like in this particular situation? What would be your default pathway and what would be the growth pathway?

>> I really like that notion also because it it puts the power, you know, in your hands to the extent that you are able to to have control, right, over your

agency. You're not just allowed to say,

agency. You're not just allowed to say, "Well, whatever God wants, let's see what happens." There's leg work that we

what happens." There's leg work that we there's footwork that we have to do to sort of meet God or meet whatever you believe in. We're partners with our

believe in. We're partners with our higher power in this journey. Um, I

think also the notion that suffering is sometimes an opportunity or challenges are an opportunity for

growth. It also removes this polarity of

growth. It also removes this polarity of good and evil which you know I think um other traditions sometimes weigh more

heavily on but this concept I think introduces the fact that we don't always know what's good or bad for us but there's a path that we're on and challenges don't have to just be seen as

punishment. They don't have to just be

punishment. They don't have to just be seen as we did something wrong or we messed up. What's the lesson to learn

messed up. What's the lesson to learn and what's the growth? So, it's kind of like, you know, I whenever people ask me about prayer, and I actually just wrote a series on Substack about prayer, you

know, be careful what you pray for.

Praying for the things that I want would be if I'm God and I know what my am needs, right? What I usually try and

needs, right? What I usually try and pray for is being open to whatever is God whatever God's will is for me. And I

don't know what that is. You know, I if I think I want a job, I really want that job, that may not be what is in my path.

So being open to this notion of if I'm unhappy, it can be an opening.

>> I love that. And especially recognizing that we may think that we want what we want and need what we need and we may think that we know what is best for us, but we only see a small part of reality

and maybe there is a higher order and maybe there is a being God etc. who sees a little bit more and can give us what we really need because you know it's the idea of a directional purpose in this

lifetime that all of our souls have come in to grow in certain ways and we don't necessarily know what our growth path is or the way in which we're supposed to open and expand and uh um see things

through a different perspective. So I I love what you're saying. I think that's exactly right. You talk about the law of

exactly right. You talk about the law of attraction, which we sort of talked about towards the beginning of our conversation with you, but you have really interesting reasons why the law

of attraction may not work from your perspective, right? Meaning, why isn't

perspective, right? Meaning, why isn't this working? I And what you say is that

this working? I And what you say is that there are four possibilities. One is

that you weren't clear about what you asked for, which I've been told is important. Another is that you didn't

important. Another is that you didn't really believe that you could have what you asked for, which I think is really interesting.

What you asked for may not be in the highest and greatest good of all involved. And finally, you weren't able

involved. And finally, you weren't able to receive it when the universe was trying to give it to you. And I think of

how many times I either said no when I should have said yes or I said yes when I should have said no. this notion of what are we ready for? How do you help

us frame that? You know, how do you help your your patients, your clients frame this? You know, why do bad things keep

this? You know, why do bad things keep happening to me? Can you give us a little kind of positive sendoff in terms of what we attract and what we can

deserve? Absolutely. And it's it's true

deserve? Absolutely. And it's it's true that we don't know if if we want something desperately and it's not happening, there's so many different reasons why that's the case. And you

have to look deep within to understand is it my unconscious? Is it my conscious? Is it that you know God's

conscious? Is it that you know God's will? Is it something else? And so as

will? Is it something else? And so as with everything we you know there's in in Cabala actually they say that there's three ways to manifest what you most deeply want. One is you do your maximum

deeply want. One is you do your maximum work in the physical world. So you want something you figure out how to do it.

You make it happen. You do your part.

And number two you also do your maximum work in the spiritual world. You pray

you ask for help. you try to you know change about yourself what you need to change to become the person who can receive what you need to receive and third you have ultimate certainty so one

two three if you can have those things many people get what they want and that's sort of the cobalistic formula for it >> I I love that because you know also to

go back to why we sometimes attract unhealthy people you know we we also need to do the footwork where am I spending my time what am I reading what

am I consuming? What am I doing with my downtime? Right? Am I drinking? Am I

downtime? Right? Am I drinking? Am I

taking drugs? Like, am I not getting regular sleep? Am I not taking care of

regular sleep? Am I not taking care of like the most basic things about my nutrition and my exercise? Right.

Because sometimes we kind of want to be looking everywhere for what went wrong when there's so many things we could do to try and help us make it more right.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. That's exactly

right. And so it's such a powerful lesson in accountability to be able to look at oneself and say what control do I have here and recognizing doing everything you can control what you can and then realizing that the control for

the majority of the most important things is somewhat limited and that to some degree you also have to surrender and be open to receiving what that much be might be in your even greater good than what it is that you think that you

want.

>> Um Dr. you really thank you so much for being here with us and um I highly recommend fulfilled how the science of spirituality can help you live a happier more meaningful life and we didn't get

to do any of the there's incredible meditations and exercises in here so um Jonathan and I will head over to Substack and uh give some examples of some of the practical stuff that's in

the book. The book is a really really um

the book. The book is a really really um it really is it's a lovely exploration of your particular and personal journey and I especially love hearing about patients and the the progress you've

helped them have. But in addition, it's a very practical book and I appreciate that as well. Thank you so much for having uh this conversation with us.

>> Thank you guys. This is great. Thank

you.

>> I'm reading your third eye right now. I

I want to walk around with a band-aid over my third eye so nobody can read it.

>> People are going to just be telling you what you think and feel.

>> They don't even need to see it. This is

the thing. I'm walking around the world with people like you and her. They're

just looking into my brain all the time.

>> We have to teach you how to read your crown. We have to extend your

crown. We have to extend your consciousness. When was this? sometimes.

consciousness. When was this? sometimes.

Here's the problem with doing so many podcasts is that I remember us having a conversation about changing our consciousness. I actually think it was

consciousness. I actually think it was on a Substack live where I tried to lead you through a meditation and the meditation was fundamentally

about what Anna was talking about which is that we can set our consciousness to a frequency or to a location

away from our own understanding into a larger universal understanding. And you

got very upset about that.

>> Oh, I told you you're bananas.

>> Dr. Dr. would be like, "You know what, mim?

Clear yourself.

Take your awareness.

>> You don't know what she would say to me.

Get out of her head, too. I can't stop you. You're just like mind surfing

you. You're just like mind surfing everywhere. You're everywhere."

everywhere. You're everywhere."

>> If anyone's listening and they want me in their head, let me know. I'm happy to uh take a look around and see what I see.

>> No. But now, honestly, true story, I am looking at a lot of this differently because I'm thinking of all those like people that I see in my yoga class sometimes. Or they walk around, they

sometimes. Or they walk around, they walk among us. And you can tell these people are aligned to something different, but doesn't always seem that life is getting done the way I would think it should. But they're walking

around probably feeling very overwhelmed by the information they might be receiving. It's like making me nuts. I

receiving. It's like making me nuts. I

don't know how to wrap my head around this. Well, you bring up an important

this. Well, you bring up an important point because people want information for themselves, but it is something that you have to learn to navigate. When you start to

receive extra sensory information from one of the four clairees, it can be very disorienting. You don't know what to

disorienting. You don't know what to tune into. There's people who don't have

tune into. There's people who don't have good boundaries. their filters are open

good boundaries. their filters are open too wide and you just get overwhelmed and like how do you go and just go to the grocery store when everyone around you is like overflowing you with

information >> your filters open too wide that's what I want to say to people get out of my third eye your filters open too wide >> you just focus on your own consciousness

>> you know what I was thinking about first of all how much we enjoy doing Substack lives because I know that when we do the Substack live for this episode this week

that this airs that y'all are listening to this people are going to lose their minds in the best way. Also, uh wanted to mention check out annieum.com to learn about her psychiatry sessions and

also coaching sessions. I kind of felt like I need to see her. I want her to be like my person. I want her to tell me all the things. Read my third eye.

>> She pauses a lot after we speak.

>> Very patient woman.

>> And I wasn't sure if it was the internet, but it wasn't.

>> She's a psychiatrist. They teach them to do that.

>> You know why you pause? You can't

receive one of the four Claire's if you're rushing.

>> Oh my god. That's your new nickname, Claire. From our breakdown to the one we

Claire. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. Me and Claire.

time. Me and Claire.

>> It's my breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience or two fiction. And now she's going to break down. So break down. She's going

break down. So break down. She's going

to break it down.