Arthur Brooks — Finding The Meaning of Your Life

What they train Marines to do in leadership is to get to 80% knowledge and then choose and stop looking.

>> Now, that's really, really important because you're going to be paralyzed if you're trying to get to 100% knowledge going, >> which is what the pure seeker mentality does. If you want to seek and get higher

does. If you want to seek and get higher presence, you need to go to 80%.

>> Mhm.

>> Now, how do you get to 80%. You get to 80% by saying, I'm pretty sure this is right >> and this is right enough that I'm going to turn my attention to another dimension on this. And that means if

you're in love, you should get married.

>> Wow. Arthur Brooks, we meet again.

>> Nice to see you, too.

>> Nice to see you.

>> You know, glad to see your the vascularity in your arms is still visible even through the long sleeve shirt.

>> Yeah.

>> Because every woman wants a vascular man.

>> You know, I I I I only take my cues from the internet.

>> Exactly. My wife every day, she says, "I love you. You're so vascular.

love you. You're so vascular.

could really take this a lot of directions, but I'm going to take a hard left from vascularity and I'm going to try to pronounce Brahma Merta.

>> Brahma mahorta.

>> Okay, Brahma Maherta. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because I want to offer some candy much like maybe an ET putting the Reese's

pieces on the floor to lure ET out. I

want to bring my listeners and dieards into the conversation with a morning routine >> and we'll we'll talk about evening

routines at the end as bookmarks and then we're going to dive into all sorts of stuff. But what is Brahma Mherta and

of stuff. But what is Brahma Mherta and could you describe your personal morning routine?

>> I do have a very strong and very disciplined morning routine and I studied love and happiness. So it's not as if I'm, you know, doing going deep into the physiology of actually how I can have the best amount of muscle mass

and minimum amount of body fat. I want

to have more love and happiness in my life. And it's not easy. So I'm a

life. And it's not easy. So I'm a >> specialist in human happiness because it's hard for me. That's the first thing to I know everybody who does research on happiness in the psychology, behavioral science world, they're doing it for a

reason.

>> Yeah. It's sort of me search more than research. But one of the things that I

research. But one of the things that I found is that discipline and an understanding of your own human physiology, the biology and neuroscience is critical for actually becoming a

happier person. So I have a morning

happier person. So I have a morning routine that I dedicate to being both more productive and having higher well-being.

>> So I'm managing mood because high negative affect is characteristic of my personality and >> and I also need to be really productive because the morning hours are when you're most productive, especially in creative stuff. Almost everybody

creative stuff. Almost everybody experiences this and that starts with what you just mentioned which is called the Brahma Mahorta. Now I've studied a lot in India. I go to India every year.

I have spiritual teachers but also I'm very interested in behavioral science in the Vadic tradition. They came to a lot of truths way before western social science actually came upon this. And one

and one of the ideas was Brahma Mahorta which in Sanskrit means the creator's time. Now a mahorta is is 48 minutes

time. Now a mahorta is is 48 minutes long. So two mahortes, the Brahma Mahort

long. So two mahortes, the Brahma Mahort is an hour and 36 minutes before dawn.

And the whole idea going back thousands of years is you get up an hour and 36 minutes before dawn and you'll be more creative, more in touch with the divine, more productive, and happier.

>> This was always the contention. So of

course, it's been put to the test in modern behavioral science research. And

sure enough, we don't know if it's two mahortas is the right number of mahortas. But the whole point is getting

mahortas. But the whole point is getting up before dawn has incredible impacts on productivity focus concentration and happiness. If you're getting up when the

happiness. If you're getting up when the sun is warm, you've lost the first battle for mood management and productivity is what it comes down to.

So my days always start before dawn. Now

I usually set the clock for 4:30 in the morning, which is a lot before dawn in who knew that Jaco Willink was such a fan of Vadic traditions. He also wakes up at 4:30. Yeah, please continue.

>> 4:30 is a good time for a lot of different reasons. You try to retrofit

different reasons. You try to retrofit your schedule to what you need to do for sure. And that's a long time before dawn

sure. And that's a long time before dawn in the winter and not that long before dawn in the summer. And our our listeners in Helsinki are like, "What do I do in July?" I mean, okay, you know, you have to tailor the routines to what

you're doing, but it's very clear that this is good for productivity and very good for happiness. And then the most important thing is what do you do right after that?

>> Yeah. What do you do?

>> I pick up heavy things and run around.

>> Okay. So the most well the most important room in my house is the gym.

>> And I've always had a good gym in my house down in the basement of my house.

Now down in the basement of my house is also living one of my kids and his wife and their two sons. So I have to be real quiet heavy things clanking around down there because like I don't want to wake

up my grandchildren. But you know I do generally speaking 2/3 resistance 1/3 zone 2. But I tailor that to what my day

zone 2. But I tailor that to what my day is going to look like. So, if I have a sedentary day, I'll do Moto Zone 2 to start the day. And if I know I'm walking around, I'm walking around campus or whatever I have to do, I know I'm going

to be walking seven or 10 miles that day, I'll do all resistance. And so,

that really depends. Or if I'm going on a hike with my wife on Saturday or something, but that's 7 days a week. I

do an hour in the gym 7 days a week.

What would the let's just say prototypical 2/3 resistance 1/3 zone 2 or whatever the the ratio might look like as a

template. What would that look like?

template. What would that look like?

Like what do the what type of exercises, free weights, equipment, kettle bells?

What type of zone 2 do you like?

>> Because for instance, like with zone 2, it's like I travel a lot. Stationary

bikes can be a real hassle because of the fitting. But then, all right, maybe

the fitting. But then, all right, maybe you use a treadmill with an incline with a rook sack or something like that. I'd

just love to know the specific.

>> Yeah, for sure. I'm very old school. So,

my resistance training actually I learned the routines that I do when I was in my 30s. I really started lifting when I was in my 30s and you know, my dad died and I and I I changed a lot of the things in my life. I quit drinking

alcohol in my 30s and and I did a lot of things differently that I hadn't done before because I wanted to not have the future that I saw in the windshield of my life. And one of the things that I

my life. And one of the things that I did was I started getting serious about my fitness and going to the gym. And I

thought to myself, you know, what's my goal? My goal is not to, you know, turn

goal? My goal is not to, you know, turn into a statue and, you know, be admired.

I mean, I've been married for a long time at that point. I mean, that was sort of done. And besides, my wife doesn't care. She just wants me to be

doesn't care. She just wants me to be happy and healthy.

I wanted to be doing that in my 70s. I

wanted to be healthy in my 70s. I wanted

to be hanging out with my wife and, you know, dandling my 11th grandchild on my knee when I was 78 years old. So, what I did was I've always been on tour. I've

always traveled constantly all throughout my career. Every city I'd go to, I'd find the oldest iron gym I could find. Why? Because that's where the old

find. Why? Because that's where the old dudes train.

>> That's where like the the shredded guys train. And now I'm the old guy, right?

train. And now I'm the old guy, right?

So my wife says that that you know sleeping with me is like holding a leather sack of ropes which is I think it's a compliment. I'm

not sure, you know, but I've been married decades to him. Decades. But I

would go to these iron >> better than a leather sack of lard, right?

>> Yeah. For sure. For sure. It's like

ropes. Yeah.

>> And it's a So we I go to these gyms for 78-year-old guys who are completely shredded. They look like an old roosters

shredded. They look like an old roosters and they're they're working out and I would say teach me teach me maestro you know the sensei teach me what you do and they would give me this advice and I

followed that advice deciduously and so what it is is I'm old school push pull legs >> don't use a bar >> and is it push pull legs every workout?

>> No, it's push pull legs on different days. So, it's kind it's not a pure bro

days. So, it's kind it's not a pure bro split, but it's near on, right?

>> Making sure that you're not getting heroic with the amount of weight. You're

making sure that you're using dumbbells and not bars because you can get full range of motion. Be super careful about your joints. If you have any pain in

your joints. If you have any pain in your joints, you back off. You do for volume, you do more reps as opposed to more weight.

>> And always be doing it that way. And

dial it down the actual weight, dialing up the reps as you get older.

>> And these are these basic ideas. So,

it's push pull legs and then I'm doing usually somewhere between 20 minutes and 40 minutes of zone 2 cardio which I have an elliptical machine because it's super easy on the joints.

>> Yeah.

>> And every place, every hotel's got an elliptical machine. I've got a nice

elliptical machine. I've got a nice elliptical machine at home and that's what I'm doing. And this is an hour. A

lot of the time I'm doing it without headphones. It's important because you

headphones. It's important because you need to concentrate for >> to begin with that's your most creative time. That's like taking an hourong

time. That's like taking an hourong shower. You get your best ideas if you

shower. You get your best ideas if you work out without headphones. There's a

lot of good neuroscience on that as well. And that's 4:45 to 5:45 in the

well. And that's 4:45 to 5:45 in the morning every single day. That's the one thing I can really count on is always going to be good. Always going to be good.

>> Do you record your workouts, videotape my workouts?

>> No. In any type of like workout journal, or is it so intuitive at this point that you're like, I really know since I'm using dumbbells and dumbbells should be consistent from place to place.

>> I can tell you what I did on this day in 2001.

>> Meaning you remember it.

>> No. Meaning it's written down. Okay.

Like, wait a second.

>> Yeah. No, no, I'm not.

>> There's some people who are like that.

>> Sort of a Rainman deal.

>> Well, for instance, people you wouldn't expect. Arnold Schwarzenegger loves

expect. Arnold Schwarzenegger loves chess. And when I first interviewed him,

chess. And when I first interviewed him, I was talking to his right-hand man. He

said, "Oh, he plays chess daily with X number of people over the course of a week or two, and he keeps track of every game and every score in his head."

>> That's amazing. So, no, I'm not doing that. But I can tell you, I mean, I've

that. But I can tell you, I mean, I've got I have journals that go back, you know, I write it down and so I know, you know, what's on what day and you know what I did. There's a whole lot of things that I keep records of for sure,

just so I understand my own progress in life, >> making sure I'm not making regress in life.

>> And for some reason, I got into the I got into the pattern of writing down every single workout going back, you know, until back to my 30s.

>> Yeah. The same.

>> And now I'm 61 years old. That's a lot of date books.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I have workouts going back to 16 and I still keep them.

>> Yeah. I don't know why I keep them, but I have them.

>> I can tell you behaviorally why people do that. I mean, what you want is record

do that. I mean, what you want is record of progress because that's one of the great secrets to human happiness. You

never arrive. Arrival gives you almost nothing. But a progress toward the goal.

nothing. But a progress toward the goal.

>> And this is a record of Tim's progress going all the way back to 16 is evidence that you're a better man than when you were 16 years old. Let's hope. Certainly

not as strong as I was when I was in my 20s, but still zone two, not dying.

>> Nothing like this. No, it's fantastic.

It's really a great way to start the day. And there's a lot of research once

day. And there's a lot of research once again on on this is especially important for mood management. So half of the population is above average in negative affect.

>> Negative a effect is strong negative manifestation of mood.

>> Yeah.

>> And obviously if it's the median, half has to be above that and half has to be below. And I'm way above average in

below. And I'm way above average in negative a effect. I'm above average in positive e. Yeah. I mean, you're a mad

positive e. Yeah. I mean, you're a mad scientist, which is typically >> you're a poet. We talked about this last.

>> Oh, we did this. You are a poet. So,

you're below average positive.

>> Below average positive. High peak

negative.

>> High peak negative. So, I'm at the 90th percentile in negative mood.

>> Yeah.

>> And there are ways, typical ways that people self-manage negative mood that are really, really bad for you. like

drugs and alcohol, like internet use, like pornography, horrible negative mood management, workcoholism, awful. People

distract themselves because they're, you know, the the amygdala >> of the brain is what largely manages fear and anger, but the amydala also manages attention. And so, if you can

manages attention. And so, if you can distract yourself with something you can count on, like your work, what you're effectively doing is you're managing your anger and fear by by redirecting the activity of the amigdula. That's

>> right. Checks out. But there's good ways to do it like your work in like developing your spirituality and picking up heavy things and running around.

>> So we're going to we're going to stick on the heavy things for a second here as well as the elliptical >> cuz we're not even done with that.

>> We're not even done. So we have we have the waking early. Let's call it 4:30.

That for me early 7:30 this morning. I

was very pleased with myself after arriving from travel at midnight >> on the West Coast.

>> Exactly. Exactly. It's 4:30 somewhere.

And we've covered that briefly. For zone

2, are you wearing a heart rate monitor?

Are you doing the talk test? How are you tracking >> talk? Talk the talk test. It's just

>> talk? Talk the talk test. It's just

keeping it as simple as possible.

>> I tend to go insane if I'm over measured.

>> Yeah.

>> And so that's one of the reasons I use very very simple, you know, biometrics and very simple health on I'm I'm going to need to move up to something better at some point, but if I get too much data, >> I'm in trouble.

>> Yeah. I mean it's like having seven different drafts of a piece of writing you're working on. Yeah.

>> Now what do you do? I mean in in a sense there's there's data and then there's information which you need to analyze.

So there is a point of diminishing returns talk test for people just very briefly. Peter has videos on this of

briefly. Peter has videos on this of himself on a stationary bike demonstrating it on social media if you want to try to find them.

>> But in effect and please tell me if I'm off base with how you approach it. you

are able to while you're in this zone two on say an elliptical stationary bike treadmill you're able to speak or have a conversation with very short sentences

but you don't really want to exactly right zone three you're too out of breath to have a normal conversation zone four you're gasping for air so I mean zone one is just you're strolling yeah >> is kind of what it comes down to and

your heart rate to be in the zone two is usually around 120 beats per minute and I'll also do some period periods of, you know, some intervals in that. I'll do

two or three intervals during a half hour zone 2 cardio session. So, I'll

take it up to 160 beats per minute for a full minute to bring it back. I'll do

some of that hit training while I'm doing it. But 120 beats per minute is

doing it. But 120 beats per minute is really really easy thing to ascertain because it's I'm an old musician.

>> That's the speed of a Soua March. A

what? Soua March.

That's 120 beats per minute. That's how

you know.

>> I mean, when you put out your elliptical ecourse, I think this is the lead in music. It's my bump music, man.

music. It's my bump music, man.

>> All right. So, after the actually before we get to after the exercise, for folks who might be interested in really diving into this, number one, Peter has a lot on it. Number two, if you want to get

on it. Number two, if you want to get nerdy, the Morpheus device has been recommended to me by folks like Andy Gallpin and others. There are other

options, but that seems to be a pretty good device. So, in terms of developing,

good device. So, in terms of developing, if you're not a former French horn player, the intuition of what is

120 or 130 beats per minute, you can do much like I've already done with, say, glucose readings or ketone readings. I

know where I am, but I'm not yet there with heart rate. The Morpheus is is a nice tool for learning what it feels like to be at 120 versus 130 versus

whatever it might be. All right, you have your workout. After the workout, >> what is your morning routine?

>> I get cleaned up. Then I go to mass.

>> I'm a Catholic. I go to mass every day.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's the experience of transcendence, which my my path is not the only path. You know, I'm going to say everybody's got to go to mass.

That's >> that's not going to be effective because that's not for everybody. But there's a period of reflection and transcendence that's very very important for not just mood management for productivity that's

that's going to follow. And there's a lot of neuroscience behind why that is effective. But for me it's also an

effective. But for me it's also an opportunity because that's my wife gets up at 6.

>> And when I'm home I'm home about half the time. I'm on tour about half the

the time. I'm on tour about half the time home but I'm home every week. So I

don't go on tour for months at a time. I

go on tour for days at a time which means that I've always got you know a flight home. And that's inconvenient,

flight home. And that's inconvenient, but that's actually part of my life protocols is making sure I spend every single weekend at home.

>> I'm out maybe four weekends a year. And

so that means I have lots of days at home. I have at least three or four

home. I have at least three or four mornings at home. And we start the day at at 6:30 mass. The two of us do.

That's very mass >> half an hour.

>> Daily mass is half an hour. You know,

Sunday mass is an hour.

>> But you know, daily mass is half. You

know, during the week after 30 minutes, no souls are saved.

according to science. No. So

>> we do that and that's a that's a that's a period of prayer and reflection. Some

people prefer vaposa meditation.

>> Mhm.

>> Our friend Brian Holidayiday does a lot with actually studying the stoic philosophers, but you need what the ancients would call the holy hour >> and they would be a full hour. I for me it's the holy half hour.

>> So and that really works and it's really good for my relationship and it's very good for it's incredibly good for focus and concentration. So, I want to

and concentration. So, I want to bookmark just to give a shameless plug for our first conversation.

>> Yeah.

>> For people who are like, "Oh, yeah.

Okay. Well, I didn't grow up Catholic.

You didn't grow up Catholic. Your

parents thought that your conversion was an act of youthful rebellion, >> which it might have been.

>> It might have been, but it stuck.

>> So, if you want the backstory, >> including some wild stories, >> then listen to our first conversation."

So I'm basically the equivalent of like a freaked out hippie who, you know, went to India and got converted and practiced an exotic religion for the rest of my life. But my exotic religion is

life. But my exotic religion is Catholicism.

>> I mean, depending on where you start, it's pretty exotic.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> All right. So, you have the holy half hour.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, our routines have a lot of similarities, >> although the flavors are slightly different. We could talk about that.

different. We could talk about that.

probably the neuroysiological effects are the same.

>> Very very similar I would imagine. So

after the holy half hour, what happens >> after the holy half hour? Now I've taken no nutrition except for you know salty water with some you know a high dose. I take highdose creatine

dose. I take highdose creatine monohydrate with my workout drink.

>> What's high dose?

>> High dose for me is 15 to 20 grams a day.

>> That is a okay.

>> So five the first five is for you know muscle protein synthesis or volumization of muscles which is really good for your workout. The other is for this just

workout. The other is for this just exploding area of research on the on the biological benefits of it, the neurobiological benefits of it. And for

me that's really really important because you know I'm a crummy sleeper and and you know Rhonda Patrick has done a lot of stuff on how how creatine is really good when you don't sleep.

>> Yeah.

>> It's also really good because I'm trying to bank neurologically 4 hours of concentration and is mostly creativity. Mhm.

creativity. Mhm.

>> So, I have to I have to set myself up for optimal creativity, and that's one of the best ways to do it. That's the

best supplement that I've been able to find that affects my creativity later on in the morning.

>> So, I'm adding that to my pre-workout drink.

>> I'm not taking no caffeine.

>> Yeah, >> this is important. I don't take any caffeine to wake up. Huberman's right on this and this is all this is very contested in the literature about A2A adenosine and how caffeine blocks

adenosine receptors >> but I really believe and and believes this but I find I I find this the most compelling explanation and it absolutely works for me I don't use caffeine to

wake up I use caffeine to focus >> because what I want is I actually want circulating adenosine to metabolize and to clear endogenously >> and I want lots and lots of clarity

plenty of open parking spots for the adenosine receptors that I can then fill 2 to three hours after I wake up with caffeine. And this will give me this is

caffeine. And this will give me this is just >> medapanyl at this point. This is just vacuuming um this is going to vacuum.

>> Be careful actual medafanyl kid.

>> No, no, I know that's I'm not that. So

it's vacuuming the dopamine into the prefrontal cortex. So, so what the ADHD

prefrontal cortex. So, so what the ADHD drugs do is that they keep more dopamine in the syninnapse, especially in the prefrontal cortex such that you can focus, you have more concentration, and

you have more creativity. And caffeine

is great for this. A lot of people like nicotine. I don't like nicotine only

nicotine. I don't like nicotine only because I was hopelessly addicted to cigarettes. Early on in my life, all the

cigarettes. Early on in my life, all the way through my 20s, I was a smoker.

>> Yeah.

>> And I don't want I mean, I blew it.

Well, a lot of people are step by step blowing it also with first micro doing nicotine and then lo and behold since it's sort of dance partners in addictive potential with heroin.

>> Yeah.

>> Then those micro doses become something along the line of mezodoses and then before you know it you're addicted to >> pretty soon it's all nicotine all the time. Exactly. And and you know caffeine

time. Exactly. And and you know caffeine is highly addictive as well but as a psycho stimulant >> it's better studied. It's much much easier to self-manage. I you know I get usually about 380 milligrams of

caffeine.

>> Oh, that's decent.

>> It's decent.

>> Holy cow.

>> That's a venty dark roast from Starbucks. I grew up in Seattle town.

Starbucks. I grew up in Seattle town.

>> I mean 380 for a lot of people if you have moderately strong coffee. That's

going to be almost four cups of coffee.

>> Yeah. And that's 20 ounces of, you know, good. I mean, and again, the darker

good. I mean, and again, the darker roasts have less caffeine, >> but I like them better because I grew up on the north side of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle when there was one Starbucks.

And so, I've been doing that since I was in 8th grade.

>> All right. So, you have the holy half hour.

>> Yeah.

>> And then after the holy half hour, you haven't had any caffeine up to that point.

>> And now it's 7:15 in the morning.

>> All right. Now,

>> I'm back from math.

>> Now, what do you do?

>> I brew the coffee. And I know how to brew coffee.

>> Now, do you have the 380 in a mega dose or is that titrated over time?

>> No. in a mega dose that usually it takes me about 45 minutes to drink.

>> Oh my god.

>> Half an hour to 45 minutes to drink. I

know. Well, part of it is I've got this grizzled adrenal system, but this my HPA axis is like a building falling down at this point. So, you

this point. So, you >> just have to donkey kick your adrenals.

Okay, got it. So, so then you you brew the coffee.

>> Yeah.

>> And sit down.

>> Then I make my first nutrition of the day. And the first nutrition of the day

day. And the first nutrition of the day is 60 to 70 grams of protein.

>> Mhm. And protein is really important, especially with a tryptophanrich source of protein for mood management.

>> And I'm not eating a turkey leg or something like that's not that's not I'm not, you know, like Henry VII.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, for that it's it's mostly whey protein powder mixed in with non-fat unflavored Greek yogurt.

>> Okay.

>> Which is great. And there's so many.

It's like any more. I just read that the three most the fastest growing foods in America today are cottage cheese, Greek yogurt, and whey protein powder, which

is extraordinary. Extraordinary when you

is extraordinary. Extraordinary when you think about it. You and I got to this much earlier back when it was harder to find Greek yogurt. And I put a little artificial sweetener in it because I'm not afraid of artificial sweetener. And

I get more micronutrients in it with >> putting walnuts and blueberries and, you know, things that actually give me the micronutrients that I need. By the way, I've also taken a multivitamin at this point. Mhm.

point. Mhm.

>> I take a multivitamin every day. I've

been taking a multivitamin for decade after decade after decade. And there's

these papers that were coming out 5 years ago saying that they're not only ineffective, they're bad for you.

>> That's all been overtaken by events. And

the newer research actually says it has neurocognitive protective benefits.

>> Take your multivitamins. And there are a lot of ways to do it. You know,

sometimes I'll take a, you know, good multivitamin in the morning. Sometimes I

wait later in the day and take AG1. But

you need a good multivitamin. Almost

everybody does. So a few p not personnicity but detail questions because that's how my mind operates. Why

no fat Greek yogurt instead of something with fat. Fat would be better for me to

with fat. Fat would be better for me to be sure is that the fat bothers my stomach.

>> Ah okay.

>> So I just I don't like it. It fills me up too much. It's hard to get to 65 gram of protein >> when you've got that much fat in the yogurt because it's you're just going to be just >> falling asleep. I only do that because

it's uncomfortable to have the fat.

>> Got it. And I'll add just a footnote for some people listening who will say, "Wait a second. I thought you could only absorb 30 grams of protein at a sitting." That is

sitting." That is >> that's old school research.

>> Quite a Yeah, it is somewhere between an old wives tale and just a statement that has been repeated so much that it's taken to be true, but it's not true.

>> It's not true.

>> And in fact, there is or I should say there are some data to suggest that as you get older, you actually absorb protein more effectively in a larger bolus. gaining more protein at fewer

bolus. gaining more protein at fewer sittings.

>> Right. That's correct. I'm completely

persuaded by the research and and and over the years I've experimented a lot with that in my diet, just in the protocols of my eating. And what I found over the past 5 years in particular is

that I'm most comfortable because I'm naturally genetically really lean. I'm

most comfortable when I'm sub 10 body fat.

>> Yeah, me too. I'm kidding.

>> But it's just, you know, because of my genetics. But

genetics. But >> yeah, been trying to get there since I was 14.

If you know the the genetics don't want it, then they're going to battle dwarfed genetics.

>> No man, if I had your frame, I mean, I would I would love that. I would be able to lift heavy, >> but the way to do that for me is to stay at 200 g of protein a day.

>> Yeah.

>> So, to keep moderate calories and 200 grams of protein a day, and then I can keep my body fat where I want it, where I feel really good, and I'm never hungry.

>> Yeah.

>> So, and that's the way to do it is a really protein richch diet. And of

course now popular culture is catching up with what we've known scientifically for a pretty long time.

>> So you get your colossus of caffeine and can follow the holy half hour just to keep up with everybody has to drink 380 millig of caffeine.

>> You have your 60 to 70 gram of protein as described and then you are sitting down to write. What are you doing?

>> Yeah, then I can sit down to write. If

I'm at home then then I sit down to write and there's no distractions. Mhm.

>> I mean, there's no meetings. There's no

Zoom. I mean, if the president of the United States or the Pope calls, there will be a morning meeting, but that's kind of it, you know, and I've got a very quiet place. I'm not looking at email. I'm not, you know, answering text

email. I'm not, you know, answering text messages. I'm not looking for I'm not

messages. I'm not looking for I'm not reading the Wall Street Journal to do this with when I set myself up this way.

I get 4 hours of of productivity. And

that's very unusual. If you're doing things the oldfashioned way, you know, you're getting up when the sun is warm and you having the nice big, you know, three espressos to try to wake up and and you're not optimizing your brain

chemistry appropriately, you'll get two hours of creativity max. That's why, you know, Hemingway used to write for two hours away.

>> I was just going to bring up Hemingway also because he would leave things unfinished. He would basically end mid

unfinished. He would basically end mid paragraph so that he had momentum in starting the following day. And I

suppose my question is in a world of ubiquitous interruption and notification where you have iMessage on your computer. Yeah. You have chat GBT, you

computer. Yeah. You have chat GBT, you have research that you might do concurrently with your writing. There

are different ways to approach writing.

How do you set yourself up say the day before such that you can sit down without interruption or self-interruption?

>> Yeah.

>> For 4 hours and write.

>> To begin with, you need to know what you're going to do the next day, the day before. Mhm.

before. Mhm.

>> You need to make a list of the things you're going to do in priority order.

And the priority order is not what you like the most, but what actually requires the most concentration and creativity.

>> So the thing you need to hit immediately, which will be the last 10% of that page you were writing. That's a

really good protocol to procrastinate that last 10%. Because your most creative, most productive, your best quality stuff is first.

>> And so you want to leave the last to be the first the next day.

>> And that way you've got consistent creativity. If I'm writing a column, for

creativity. If I'm writing a column, for example, and I'm on deadline every single week for a column and it's 1,200 words a week of science about human happiness.

>> Sounds stressful. Sounds like a way to make yourself unhappy.

>> Yeah. I know. I'm I'm I'm hunted. But

doing that, if I sit down and write it, the the kicker is always going to be worse than the lead.

>> Yeah.

>> And so the kicker is always the first thing in the morning someday, >> right? so that the kicker is as good as

>> right? so that the kicker is as good as the lead or better because I'm leaving it so that my brain chemistry is optimized to the product that I'm trying to create. That was a very good protocol

to create. That was a very good protocol from from Hemingway. His problem was he was a drunk.

>> Yeah.

>> And when you're a drunk, what you're doing is you're borrowing tomorrow's dopamine tonight.

>> You're borrowing, as a friend of mine put it also, you're borrowing happiness from tomorrow.

>> Yeah. And the reason is because your dopamine is going to be below the baseline and you're going to have anhidonia in the morning. Andhidonia is

a characteristic of clinical depression which is a deficit of dopamine meaning an inability to feel pleasure and is below the baseline when you're hung over below the baseline when you've when you've popped it really hard and you're

getting the trough the next day. If you

drink at night and if you want to be productive the next morning this morning starts last night >> and it starts by going to bed at a reasonable time sober which we'll probably get to at the end of this conversation.

>> So that's why he had two hours to bed sober. Well, also because if you need

sober. Well, also because if you need any, and this is my kind of repeated realization that should be top of mind all the time, which is if you wear an

Aura ring, a Whoop band, the one conclusion that you will come to over and over again, is if you drink before bed, even a few hours before bed, your sleep is garbage.

>> Your sleep architecture is so messy.

>> And for me now, for whatever reason, at this age, I'm 48. I had one martini with my brother. I don't see him that much.

my brother. I don't see him that much.

We went out to a nice speak easy, had a drink, and just shattered my sleep. It was shocking to me. Kind of embarrassing.

me. Kind of embarrassing.

>> The older you get. And you know, the truth is that young people are figuring out what people my age didn't when I was I mean, I drank very heavily in my 20s and 30s. It's what we did. I was a

and 30s. It's what we did. I was a musician. It's what we did. We knew it

musician. It's what we did. We knew it wasn't good for us. But the truth of the matter is that if it's euphoric, if it gets you buzzed, it's neurotoxic. And

you have to be careful applying neurotoxic substances to yourself because you're going to pay a price for that. Now, there's a costbenefit

that. Now, there's a costbenefit analysis to anything. I don't drive the safest car. I don't drive a car that

safest car. I don't drive a car that that if it crashes, I will be completely safe no matter what. I drive something I like. I'm making a costbenefit analysis.

like. I'm making a costbenefit analysis.

But the truth is that many people, they think it's costless to get buzzed.

>> Mhm.

>> It's not. Just isn't.

>> Your routine, I'll just pause us there, is very, very similar to mine. Tell me more.

to mine. Tell me more.

>> Well, right now I'm day three of segueing into ketosis. We're always

producing ketones, but I'm probably just because I've done this a lot, I'm probably at right now like 1.2 millmers in terms of blood concentration of like

beta hydroxybutyrate after ketosis. You

like how it feels?

>> I love how it feels in terms of mental acuity. I also because I have

acuity. I also because I have neurogenerative diseases in my family >> and metabolic dysfunction see doing

let's just call it four to 6 weeks of nutritional ketosis once or twice a year to appear to be very cheap insurance.

>> What's your APOE profile?

>> ApoE 34.

>> You're 34?

>> Yeah. 34. There are other risk factors.

I also have relatives who are 33 but nonetheless developed early Alzheimer's.

So, I'm like, "Yeah, you know what? I I

like how I feel. I need less sleep when I'm in ketosis. I naturally wake up very, very alert, which is unusual for me." I wanted to mention that first just

me." I wanted to mention that first just to set the stage in a way.

>> So, I for decades did minimum 30 g of protein within 30 minutes of waking up.

I still think that is a great option for me now for a host of reasons that I could get into, but I'll keep it simple.

I almost always do intermittent fasting where I am fasting until 2 or 3 p.m. in

the afternoon, but when I wake up, like this morning I woke up at 7:30 and I was preparing for this conversation. So, I

wanted to block out a few hours to do that, but woke up had, now this is mildly stimulating, but I wanted to have a little bit because I'm also jet-lagged

and arrived at around midnight last night. had some cacao with a little bit

night. had some cacao with a little bit of cacao butter mixed in.

>> Nice.

>> Just enough under three grams of net carbs >> because you're keeping your net carbs to 30 a day probably, right?

>> I'm keeping my net grams to for me personally right now under 10 g.

>> Under 10. That'll get you into ketosis fast.

>> Under 10. Yeah. Especially if I am already adapted to intermittent fasting so that I'm doing 16 to 18 hours of fasting with a short 68 hour window of

eating. Once you get to 16 to 18 hours,

eating. Once you get to 16 to 18 hours, especially if you're doing some exercise, let's just say in the morning or any other point, you're depleting your liver glycogen and you're going to

get into the habit. Your metabolic

machinery will develop the habit and the capability of producing ketones even when you are eating carbohydrates in that limited window of eating.

>> And you don't take exogenous ketones. I

will occasionally on a day like today because I know that I'm on effectively let's call it day two and a half of segueing into ketosis. I think my

natural production is roughly where I mentioned my natural production right now is probably around.9.

>> Mhm.

>> Let me just back up. So I wake up at 7:30. I have the the cacao plus some

7:30. I have the the cacao plus some cacao butter.

Then I sit in and I have a hot tub. This

is like one of my indulgences. It's not

actually that expensive, but I sit in a hot tub and I meditated for 10 minutes with an app, the Way app. Henry Shookman

is my spirit animal. Amazing

mindfulness/zen focused practice. Did that 10 minutes,

focused practice. Did that 10 minutes, that's it. Got out. It is pretty chilly

that's it. Got out. It is pretty chilly right now in Austin.

>> Gets down to I think last night it was 37 low. got into my pool for a few

37 low. got into my pool for a few minutes and got out, cold shower, came back in and then sat down and this was my kind of deep work prep, right? No

interruptions.

>> There's non-trivial similarity to what I'm trying to do neurokcognitively.

>> Yeah, exactly. And then on the way here, about 15 minutes prior to arriving, knowing my start time, there were a few other bells and whistles that I threw in nutritionally in terms of supplements

and so on earlier in the morning, but had one nitro cold brew from Starbucks and about 15 milliliters of exogenous

ketones.

>> Mhm. In this case, it's BHB bonded to 13 butane dial, which I do have some reservations about. Long-term chronic

reservations about. Long-term chronic use, I think could be liver toxic, but I'm doing it very intermittently. And

so, for the let's just call it 4 days of segue into nutritional ketosis, I will use exogenous ketones sometimes as a boost.

>> Mhm.

>> And that's it. That was the >> And it's working great for you. And

here's a big takeaway. I think you got to that through experimentation.

>> Yep.

>> You didn't get that by getting it off the internet. You learned a lot about

the internet. You learned a lot about these different >> variety of protocols.

>> Mhm.

>> And you tailored it and tried it and over a number of years >> came upon what worked best for you. And

it's exactly what I've done too. And

everybody watching needs to treat their life like a lab.

>> Yeah.

>> Experimentation is king. The precursor

to good experimentation is information.

Is scientific information. And then it's getting experience through the experimentation and figuring out what your own protocol actually is.

>> Mhm.

>> Because as they say in the ads, your results may differ.

>> Yeah. Right. Exactly. And so for me, if I'm weight training, I will typically weight train late afternoon. That's just

always been my preference.

>> But if we had not had this podcast today, I would have done zone 2 training.

>> Mhm. In the morning.

>> Right. Exactly. After the meditation >> before you eat.

>> Before I eat.

>> You like fasted cardio? I do like fasting.

>> Yeah, I do too.

>> Especially when I'm trying to get into ketosis or intermittent fasting because it'll help me deplete the stored glycogen at a faster rate. If it is too high, just for people who may be

interested in intermittent fasting or ketosis, if the exertion level is too high or if it is resistance training, sometimes it will spike glucose in such a way that makes it a little

counterproductive if you're trying to get into ketosis. So the zone >> because your stress hormones are >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you're

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you're

already going to have increased cortisol in the morning. You need that to wake up.

>> And also with caffeine often times you'll see a pretty noticeable spike in glucose. So I try not to compound it by

glucose. So I try not to compound it by doing the weight training in the morning.

>> At this point in the cycle of getting into ketosis, do you you have headaches?

>> I had a mild headache yesterday. I will

say that the biggest cheat for me in terms of getting into ketosis quickly and relatively painlessly is training my body to intermittent fast.

Intermittently fast. And I have been in ketosis dozens of times in my life. And

I've done extended periods, 6 months in ketosis and so on. Particularly when I was actually training for sports, which seems counterintuitive, but I was doing something called the cyclical ketogenic diet, which is really interesting. M

>> when I was training for the national Chinese kickboxing championships in 99 that was an amazing system for cutting weight getting lean but also maintaining or adding some muscle mass in any case

people can look it up >> confusing your system in a cycle right you're staying out of equilibrium in a way right >> you're definitely doing that what you're doing with the CKD people can look it up there are many people who have pioneered

this borrowqual with the anabolic diet there are different names for it Dan Duchain way back in the day also talked about this but you are providing a short

window once a week where you are in my case doing a glycogen depletion weight training workout and then you are spiking the hell out of your

carbohydrate intake for let's call it 15 hours something like that and you are really piling in carbohydrate and you are leveraging insulin as a storage

hormone and anabolic signaling pathway to ensure that you and pack on some muscle >> while you are in on average kotic state which is very very hard to do otherwise

I don't do that anymore cuz it's just too much brain damage frankly >> well that's a lot to think about that becomes a full-time job is the protocol becomes the full-time job >> yeah which is not the point right in my

case I'm sure in your case like the protocol is in service of life >> life is not in service of the protocol >> the protocol is supposed to work for you you're not supposed to work for your protocol and I mean we're not going to

be labor at this point but in a world and people there's a great Chuck Palanic quote that I don't want to get wrong people can look it up but basically says you know big brother isn't watching you he's entertaining you like entertaining

you to death and like just talking about the sort of modern digital ecosystem and the role of technology etc but suffice to say if you can single task for 4 hours from a competitive advantage

perspective >> not using pharmaceutical grade you know psycho stimulants >> you're in an elite group >> you're in absolutely elite group and you absolutely can do it with proper health and exercise disciplines.

>> And also I'll just say to your point right managing the physiology had a great conversation with Dave Bazooki recently who's the co-founder and CEO of Roblox and he and his wife are the

largest well their foundation is the largest funer of metabolic psychiatry research including ketogenic therapy which includes Chris Palmer at Harvard.

>> That stuff's super interesting. tois for

me it is like taking medapanyl and all of the kind of short-term powerful but long-term penalty drugs that I've tested over.

>> Have you ever tried if you've ever taken a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor an SSRI?

>> I have never taken one for anti-depression. I have taken what is

anti-depression. I have taken what is similar. It's not exactly an SSRI but I

similar. It's not exactly an SSRI but I have used trazadone for sleep.

>> Well, tradone is a monocyclic, right?

It's a really early early generation antid-depressant.

>> It is effectively a failed anti-depressant because it put people to sleep that was repurposed as a sleep drug is my understanding.

>> Like unisome was supposed to make you not sneeze and it's a succinate actually was supposed to make you was an antihistamin that was repurposed as a sleeping pill.

>> Yeah, there you go. That is it. But why

do you ask about SSR?

>> The reason I ask that is because a lot of people will say that they find that a proper keto diet is better than an SSRI too for the serotonin effects. Oh yeah,

people should look up Chris Palmer. I

had a conversation with him as well. But

for mood stabilization, mood elevation, but not in a peak and trough type of way, I have found nothing better than the ketogenic diet.

>> That's interesting. So for mood management, this is fundamental for you.

>> It is without exception the number one with no close second.

>> So poets take note.

>> Yeah, poets take note. And maybe you should just we have to revisit this.

People are like, "What is this mad scientist poet stuff?" You want to just explain what we're talking about? There

are four affect profiles. And affect

profiles mean the intensity of your negative and positive emotion.

>> You're born with this. So there are times in your life when you have more positive emotionality or more intense negative emotionality depending on circumstances. But this is your baseline

circumstances. But this is your baseline state. You can be above average positive

state. You can be above average positive and above average intensity negative emotion. Those are the mad scientists.

emotion. Those are the mad scientists.

That's me.

>> You have high highs and low lows. all

about it's great or it sucks, you know, and it's impossible to be married to a mad scientist. My wife reminded me of

mad scientist. My wife reminded me of that this morning.

You can be above average positive and below average intensity negative. These

are cheerleaders. These are the happiest people. They have some weaknesses. They

people. They have some weaknesses. They

tend to be bad bosses because they won't accept bad news and they can't give criticism like no bad vibes, man.

>> There are some people who are low low.

They're just low affect people. These

are the judges. They make really good surgeons. You know that you don't want

surgeons. You know that you don't want somebody to cut you open and go, "Oh my god." That's not what you want. You want

god." That's not what you want. You want

somebody who's going to be like, "I can take that out." Or, you know, nuclear power reactor operators or something who are really >> low means low positive, low negative.

>> Low positive, low negative.

>> Got it. Their sine wave is flatter.

>> They're steady, man. I mean, they're not freaking out about anything. And then

there are those who are low inensity positive emotion, but high intensity negative emotion. And these are the

negative emotion. And these are the poets.

>> And the poets are the most interesting.

And the reason is because they tend to be the most creative and most romantic.

>> And part of that is because there's this research, all neuroscience research is contested. I should preface this, but

contested. I should preface this, but there's a part of the lyic system called the vententralateral prefrontal cortex that that is involved in your rumination when you're depressed.

>> Yeah.

>> Ruminative depression, ruminative sad depression is a heavy activity of the vententral prefrontal cortex. You also

use it when you're ruminating on a business plan or writing a symphony. And

when you're ruminating on another person because you're falling in love. M and

that's why poets tend to be depressive, creative, and romantic.

>> Tim Ferrris, my friends, this is Tim Ferrris.

>> That's me in a nutshell.

>> Yeah. And so the whole point is that you need, no matter who you are, you need to appropriately manage your mood. The

essence of self-management is mood management starts with knowledge about who you are. And they people can go to my website and take a test and figure out who they are, which profile you are.

And then you got to figure out what you need to do in mood management. Do you

need to elevate positive emotion or do you need to manage? You don't need to eliminate negative emotion. You don't

want to do that. You'll be dead in a week. Negative emotion is really

week. Negative emotion is really important for protection.

>> Sadness, anger, disgust, fear, but you want to manage it so it's not disregulating. So it's not exaggerated.

disregulating. So it's not exaggerated.

And there are lots of techniques for doing it. But you got to know what your

doing it. But you got to know what your bigger challenge is by knowing yourself.

Then you can proceed to some of these protocols that we're talking about here for appropriate mood management based on your challenges is how it works for you.

It's managing positive up and managing negative down. And ketosis is really,

negative down. And ketosis is really, really good for both. Yeah, I would say for folks who may fit the profile or who are curious about my personal experience that repeatedly, I mean, I've done this

now dozens of times, it is very consistent, it completely removes the lowest 50% of my negative and bumps my

positive baseline up 20%. This is really interesting because this might be the poet's protocol.

>> Ketosis might be the poet's protocol for me. It's what I eat, how I administer

me. It's what I eat, how I administer caffeine, and it's actually how I do my exercise when I'm super fasted first thing in the morning is incredibly efficacious for managing down my

negative a effect without accidentally managing down my positive affect. I want

to point out another thing about your protocol, which is by having caffeine later, this is my experience because I love caffeine. I love stimulants. have

love caffeine. I love stimulants. have

to be very careful. I know

>> if I start later, guess what? What a

incredible slight of hand trick. I

consume less. Why? Because I started later, >> right? And no crash.

>> right? And no crash.

>> Yeah. And so I will start later and your total caffeine will be less. Why is this relevant? Because the halflife of

relevant? Because the halflife of caffeine is very long. And if you have too much caffeine early in the day, even if you stop by noon, it will still

impact your sleep, sleep architecture and so on.

>> Yeah. And the older you get, so the halflife, the metabolism of caffeine, it changes over the course of your life and the halflife extends. One of the things that I find for friends of mine who are like me in their 60s and they'll be

like, I'm sleeping. I sleep like crap because I'm old. I was like, "Ah, probably because you have the espresso after lunch." And when you were 30, you

after lunch." And when you were 30, you could metabolize the caffeine effectively. The halflife was probably 8

effectively. The halflife was probably 8 hours and now it's probably 14 hours. Y

>> and it's still in your system bothering you when you're trying to go to sleep at night. Take out that after lunch

night. Take out that after lunch espresso. Move your caffeine. Stop

espresso. Move your caffeine. Stop

drinking caffeine after 8 or 9 in the morning. It's like magic.

morning. It's like magic.

>> Yeah, it is incredible. I reserve

coffee, caffeine, like a nitro cold brew for days like today.

>> Yeah.

>> And then otherwise I'm using yerba mate or cacao or puert tea or some combination thereof.

>> You like your mate? You like how it makes you feel? I love it.

>> It's very smooth.

>> I love it.

>> It's a smooth buzz as we used to say in high school.

>> It really is the smoothest of the smooth. It's just also the most

smooth. It's just also the most inconvenient. I like to drink it the

inconvenient. I like to drink it the Argentine way with >> the wood the wood cup and the metal straw that gets really hot.

>> Exactly. Which is probably a great way to give yourself throat cancer. Side

note, or mouth cancer, but we'll find out.

>> Yeah, we'll find out. Track the RGs.

They're people are looking at that very closely. All right, we probably should

closely. All right, we probably should talk about the meaning of life. Small

topic.

>> It's just a little thing, you know, and it's what I've been thinking about for 5 years. I want to know why after your

years. I want to know why after your many books, author of 15 books, right, you have build the life you want, co-authored with Oprah Winfrey, from strength to strength, which was my first

introduction to your books, which is an exceptional book, finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in the second half of life. And now, the meaning of your life, finding purpose in an age of emptiness, why write this

book? When I came back to academia, I

book? When I came back to academia, I was gone for a long time. I'm a sort of a lifelong I'm a third generation academic actually. My dad was a

academic actually. My dad was a professor. His father was a professor.

professor. His father was a professor.

This is the vortex of life. I tried to escape it by by being in music all the way through my 20s. But it sucked me in, right? This was my natural habitat. But

right? This was my natural habitat. But

I left for almost 11 years cuz I was the CEO of a big think tank in Washington DC called the American Enterprise Institute. And when I was gone, I wasn't

Institute. And when I was gone, I wasn't paying attention to academia. I left at the end of 2008. I came back in 2019. My

memory of my academic experience going back, you know, intergenerationally, it's the happiest place in the world.

Everybody has the best time in college.

They make all their friends. They get a bunch of adventures. They get exposed to weird new ways of thinking. People loved

college. And most people say I was happier in college than when I left college. I come back in 2019 and it's

college. I come back in 2019 and it's like the plague had gone through my village.

>> It was completely different. And in

point of fact, clinical depression among adults under 30, especially highly educated adults under 30, college graduates, especially elite colleges had tripled.

>> Clinical depression up by 3x. Anxiety,

generalized anxiety, 2x. And it's not because of a lack of therapy. On the

contrary, the number of therapists has gone up by about 4x.

>> Yeah.

>> And so something's not working. This is

what we call in my business a psychoggenic epidemic which is a simple idea with fancy words because that's how we get tenure. And what it means is there's something that's contagious

>> and creates suffering and has no biological origin, no known biological origin. That's a psychoggenic epidemic.

origin. That's a psychoggenic epidemic.

So eating disorders and cutting and many things, they'll spread around, create tons of misery, but they're not biological in origin. And so those are harder nuts to crack. the depression,

anxiety epidemics that we see today are are psychoggenic. And so we need to

are psychoggenic. And so we need to understand what's behind them. And so

when I see the data, I mean, I set about my research agenda saying, "Okay, what's going on?" And that's a kind of a

going on?" And that's a kind of a Sherlock Holmes kind of a a forensic behavioral science experiment. And

that's kind of how I do my work. That's

the most interesting things to do is to figure out this mystery using the tools or my stock and trade, you know, I suffered through to get my PhD, you know, applying them a little bit. And

one of the things that I do is I just start talking to people and doing a content analysis of what they tell me and see the words that start to pop up.

Those are the clues, right? Because the

words will start popping up. And when

you do that, the word that kept popping up again and again and again was, "I don't know what I'm meant to do. My life

feels meaningless."

>> And sure enough, when you do the survey work and ask people if their life feels meaningless, that's the predictor of depression anxiety.

>> And so we have lots and lots of data out there. I mean, lots of pop arguments

there. I mean, lots of pop arguments about why, you know, so many young people are depressed today. And, you

know, people my age are like, cuz they're entitled babies and they're not tough enough. And people who are my kids

tough enough. And people who are my kids age who are in their 20s, they'll say it's because boomers wrecked everything and made houses too expensive and spoiled the environment or something.

>> But people have been saying that stuff forever. There's nothing new about that.

forever. There's nothing new about that.

These psychological effects that we're seeing are new. They're really, really a new thing. So, that's not it. or there's

new thing. So, that's not it. or there's

a lot of people and you've talked a lot on your show about technology and a lot of people say that technology is screwing us up and technology really has a big role in what I found but the

problem is not the technology per se but what we're not getting because of the technology is what we're actually missing what is it actually that we want that we're not getting you know when you

when you have somebody who's deeply malnourished >> you don't talk about what's actually creating the malnutrition you might that's important but what they're not getting Right. It's like, okay, you're

getting Right. It's like, okay, you're eating all carbohydrates.

>> Yeah.

>> It's not that carbohydrates are inherently bad, but the dose makes the poison. And by virtue of only eating

poison. And by virtue of only eating carbohydrates, you're not getting any amino acids that you eat.

>> The problem is the protein you're not getting for Pete's sake is what it comes down to. So, I wanted to find the

down to. So, I wanted to find the protein that was underneath this whole thing. And the content analysis of these

thing. And the content analysis of these interviews is like >> what I meant to do. Life feels

meaningless. I don't know the meaning of life. And I'm like, that's too big.

life. And I'm like, that's too big.

That's too big. That's like a big philosophical thing, but I couldn't avoid it is what it came down to. So

over the past 5 years I've been writing a book about okay what is the meaning of life where do you find it and how do you have to live differently so that you can actually find it in modern life and

that's what this book is and the most interesting part of this was people say where do you find the meaning of life like church the beach Italy Italy and it

turns out that we trend New Jersey >> no offense to Trenton I've spent a lot of time there my hometown >> we know where you go to find it and then you have to do certain things. You know,

I'm a very protocols guy. And so what this book is, the six protocols for once you know where the meaning of your life is, >> what you have to do to go there and get it is what it comes about. So the

beginning of the book is okay, what's the meaning of meaning cuz it's too big, >> right? It is big. It's

>> right? It is big. It's

>> too big. The second is where do you find it? And the third thing is how do you

it? And the third thing is how do you have to live differently? That's what

this book is.

>> Well, let's start with definitions.

That's how I like to roll. So

>> I know and that's the most important thing that scientists almost never do.

you know throw out a term and then not define it. So the meaning of life has

define it. So the meaning of life has been you know discussed forever >> but the best philosophical and psychological definitions they disassemble it into its component parts.

So the way that you and I have talked about happiness in the past is that happiness is a combination of enjoyment, satisfaction and meaning.

>> So meaning is a macronutrient of happiness. And when that's missing

happiness. And when that's missing that's why you have a happiness problem.

So that's the beginning of this whole thing. Meaning in turn has

thing. Meaning in turn has macronutrients has component parts to it as well. Psychologists will refer to

as well. Psychologists will refer to them as coherence, purpose, and significance. Coherence is why things

significance. Coherence is why things happen the way they do. You have to have a theory of why things happen the way they do or you won't know the meaning of your life.

>> Meaning how life or why life you the way it un things are happening like why.

>> So is that picking >> I don't want to dislocate the sharing of the three but just just to maybe we'll come back to it. is that coming up with

or adopting a story that is enabling.

>> Yeah, it's adopting a story that actually explains things so that life is not inherently random.

>> Okay. But it doesn't need to be objectively accurate explaining.

>> It's your way of seeing things. It's

your your understanding of the world.

It's putting things in context and so things kind of make sense.

>> Otherwise, it's this random walk through life which is a sort of a definition of meaninglessness.

>> For some people, the model, which is an imperfect model at best, but it's a model nonetheless. It's a physics that

model nonetheless. It's a physics that explains that is religion.

>> Mhm.

>> For some people it's pure on science.

For some people it's conspiracy theories why things happen the way they do. But

those are different sort of models that explain this. Now you can also have a

explain this. Now you can also have a hybrid model which I do. You know

religion and science and all this kind of good stuff. But you got to do the work to figure out the physics of that.

Why things happen the way they do.

>> So coherence >> that's coherence >> is figuring out why do things happen in my life? Why do things happen the way

my life? Why do things happen the way they do? you know, why are things

they do? you know, why are things happening all the time?

>> The second is purpose. And people often think purpose and meaning are the same thing. They're not. Purpose is a

thing. They're not. Purpose is a subcomponent of meaning. It is why am I doing what I'm doing?

>> You know, why am I doing all these weird things every single day that has to do with goals and direction? If you don't have goals and direction in your life, everybody has said this. I mean, there's like Napoleon Hill said this and Dale Carnegie said this.

>> You got to have a an end point. In

Spanish, there's a great word called elbow. Grumbbo means in English it

elbow. Grumbbo means in English it doesn't have a lot of significance. It's

a navigational term that means rum line which is where you're going. It's the

uklidian path from where you are to where you're going.

>> And you have to have a rum line if you're going to make any progress.

You're going to have any goals in any direction is what you need to have. It

doesn't mean that you have to be linearly making progress. But you have to have an idea of what that line might be. That's elbow.

be. That's elbow.

>> Even if the endpoint changes.

>> Exactly. That's why you need an intention. And that's what purpose is

intention. And that's what purpose is all about. Mhm.

all about. Mhm.

>> Why am I doing what I'm doing is the second why question. The why part is really important as we'll see in a second.

>> The third is significance, which is why does my life matter? Why does my life matter? And if the answer is it doesn't,

matter? And if the answer is it doesn't, that's a problem. Or I don't know, that's not good enough. People need to have a concept of why your life matters.

And the great ways of answering that question are having kids and being married and you know believing that God loves you and all kinds of ways to have that significance question answered. In

my work in the book there's a test on where you are in the journey to answering those questions. How close you are, how much you're looking. And so

that's presence and search. If you're

looking looking like you're a searcher, you're total seeker. So your search score is going to be through the roof.

>> My finding score may not be as >> well. That presence that's presence,

>> well. That presence that's presence, right? And what happens over the course

right? And what happens over the course of life is that people who search more they tend their presence score tends to go up but it might not be that high. So

my presence score is very moderate.

>> Could you explain this just one more time for me? Could you just start that over?

>> So there's two ways to kind of measure where you are in this journey of finding meaning of searching and finding for meaning. The two ways to do it are

meaning. The two ways to do it are what's called search and presence. Mhm.

>> Search is how intensively you're looking to answer these why questions. You know,

why do things happen the way they do?

Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why

does my life matter? Right. That search.

And some people are intent seekers like you, Tim. You're an intent seeker.

you, Tim. You're an intent seeker.

>> This show is an exercise in search.

>> Yes. And part of it is because this is not just a new hack for getting better biceps. This is a new way of trying to

biceps. This is a new way of trying to understand why why we're alive.

>> That's what the show is kind of the theme of the show. It's why I listen to the show. This is why I learn things

the show. This is why I learn things because I'm a seeker too.

>> But then how successful you are is your presence. Search and presence. Presence

presence. Search and presence. Presence

is I have answers that are satisfactory to me.

>> As you get older, if you seek, your presence score should go up.

>> And mine certainly has.

>> So is a presence the presence of meaning.

>> Make sure I'm understanding. One is

seeking an answer >> and then presence is accepting.

>> Having something is satisfactory.

>> All right. Got it.

>> Is having satisfactory. There's some

people who have skyhigh presence scores and really low search scores. Those are

people who like those fortunate individuals who are born going, "Yep, I know. I know. I'm not going to leave my

know. I know. I'm not going to leave my hometown. Why am I going to leave my

hometown. Why am I going to leave my hometown? It's awesome here." Right?

hometown? It's awesome here." Right?

What do I need to do? I'm going to marry my high school sweetheart. I'm going to work in my daddy's business and I'm going to go to the church I grew up in.

And they're very, very stable. We think

of these as conservative individuals, dispositional conservatives. They tend

dispositional conservatives. They tend to have low search and high presence.

>> Right? And to be clear, this is not >> this is not political.

>> Political.

>> It might be, but that's not really the point, right? I'm talking about

point, right? I'm talking about dispositional conservatism is conserving good things that preceded you.

>> Mhm.

>> And why are they good things? Cuz they

give you meaning of life is kind of what it comes down to. On the other hand, you might be somebody who's a seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker, seeker. And you

don't find it very much. And I'm I'm very moderate in presence. It's higher

than it used to be. My presence of meaning was in the cellar when I was in my 20s for sure. and in my 60s is much much higher for sure. But it's still not you know what do you attribute the

improvement to is being alive and actually searching a lot and looking at data and optimizing and trying to live a life on purpose is self-managing. I mean

I'm a behavioral scientist because I want answers and I want answers for me.

I'm looking for the biggest questions to answer to at least address the biggest questions of my life. That's why I do what I do for a living. Mhm.

>> My life is an experiment a pure on revolving adventure. So I'm curious if I

revolving adventure. So I'm curious if I can just interject for a second about the the present piece specifically because I think many people listening to the show will selfidentify as seekers, >> right?

>> But there are traps along the way >> as you identify as a seeker.

>> And I talk about these in the book.

Yeah. And I'll just tell one quick anecdote and then I I'd love to hear how you have improved or whether it's just been not a passive but something that

has unfolded for you. The presence piece specifically. I remember talking to a

specifically. I remember talking to a very very experienced psychedelic therapy facilitator who's who's been doing it for many decades, thousands and thousands of different

people in sessions. And they told me a story which they said is is common and becoming more common that people will come in and after their session they'll

say yeah I was experiencing so much joy this beautiful light this love in the session but I kept wondering when I was going to do the real work like when I

was going to do the hard work >> and the way the facilitator explained it was in a sense more and more so she's running into people who are in pursuit

ude of this durable contentment, satisfaction, joy. But when

they experience it in these sessions, they're like, "Yeah, get this out of the way so I can do the hard work to reach the joy." But they're just pushing aside

the joy." But they're just pushing aside all the joy. Yeah.

>> As they continue their endless seeking.

>> They're just not going to take yes for an answer.

>> Right. So, I'm wondering how you learn to take yes as an answer.

>> It's not easy because when you're a chronic seeker, there's always something more. There's always something new and

more. There's always something new and you can't be there yet. The answer to this actually comes two of my kids are Marines.

>> And so I have one enlisted Marine, I have one officer in the Marine Corps and my daughter's a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps and she's right now she's in Quanico and she's going through the basic school, you know, getting ready to

do her her MOS. She wants to be a signals intelligence officer. My son was enlisted. He was a scout sniper. He was

enlisted. He was a scout sniper. He was

in a scout sniper platoon at a camp Pendleton. And that's a super

Pendleton. And that's a super interesting and dangerous job as a non-commissioned officer. He led a lot

non-commissioned officer. He led a lot of guys. What they train Marines to do

of guys. What they train Marines to do in leadership is to get to 80% knowledge and then choose and stop looking.

>> Mhm.

>> Now, that's really, really important because you're going to be paralyzed if you're trying to get to 100% knowledge going, >> which is what the pure seeker mentality does. If you want to seek and get higher

does. If you want to seek and get higher presence, you need to go to 80%.

>> Now, how do you get to 80%. You get to 80% by saying, "I'm pretty sure this is right >> and this is right enough that I'm going to turn my attention to another dimension. on this. And that means

dimension. on this. And that means friends, if you're in love, you should get married. That's what that means.

get married. That's what that means.

>> Wow.

>> That means if you're in love and you know each other and you think that within 3 to 5 years, you really could be best friends.

>> Yeah.

>> And you have a certain stability of values, stop looking.

>> Yeah.

>> Get married. Why? Because the longer you don't get married, the longer you're in search for your soulmate, the more you're putting off the best thing in your life. You're postponing the best

your life. You're postponing the best thing in your life. Marriage is the best thing in life for most people. I mean, a bad marriage is the worst thing in life, right? But for most people, this is the

right? But for most people, this is the for men and women. All this fiction about the fact that marriage is good for men but bad for women. It's all

nonsense. Brad Wilcox's research at Virginia is completely clear on this.

It's better for everybody. Being in love and living with the person with whom you're in love for the rest of your life is great, but you're not going to get that if you're trying to get to 99% awareness. M if you're going to search

awareness. M if you're going to search all the way to the point because you'll never get that. You're going to have an argument. You're going to have a

argument. You're going to have a disagreement. You're going to have

disagreement. You're going to have doubts. You're going to digest something

doubts. You're going to digest something in a weird way and think maybe I'm not in love.

>> And the same thing is true with your faith.

>> What am I going to practice? Get to 80% awareness and choose and then decide that that's what you're actually going to do. Use the marine rule of

to do. Use the marine rule of leadership. And then the search can

leadership. And then the search can actually lead to presence. This is all interesting terrain which is why I was looking forward to this conversation.

>> There's a lot.

>> It's a lot. And of course, as I said before we started recording, I was like we are not going to suffer from a lack of topics to talk about. I want to come back to the coherence, purpose,

significance, macronutrients of meaning for a moment. Just in quick review, coherence why do things happen in my life, right? Having a story for that

life, right? Having a story for that that you commit to in a sense.

>> Why am I doing what I'm doing? That's

purpose. And then why does my life matter significance? Looking at my peer

matter significance? Looking at my peer group, my friends, a lot of people in my audience, it seems like number three,

why does my life matter is where people struggle the most. A lot of them in part. We can talk about the dozens of

part. We can talk about the dozens of factors at play, I am sure. But for some people, and I have some thoughts on this, but for some younger people, it's I don't know what to do because AI is

going to take all the jobs, >> right?

>> And I don't know therefore how my contributions will matter.

>> I will become less significant.

>> I will become less significant. The

climate is irretrievably which I I don't actually believe is the case, but >> they have certainly heard that >> a lot of damage has been done. They've

been taught that, >> right? Etc., etc., etc., right? Nuclear

>> right? Etc., etc., etc., right? Nuclear

Armageddon, that is actually on the list of existential threats, one of the scary ones in my opinion.

>> Therefore, I don't know how to conclude that my life matters. How did you personally arrive at an answer to this question or how do you suggest people explore

>> unpacking that? I have some thoughts.

I'll just rather than bearing the lead, I'll just throw it out there, which is take the time to not take the time to not just study people who do huge things

in short periods of time, but also study people who commit to things that take longer than their lifetimes, like scientists like >> clergy.

>> Clergy. By simply extending the time horizon, the spectrum of options opens up quite a bit. But I would love to hear you explain.

>> That's a very good point. That's a very good point. But there's a compatible

good point. But there's a compatible point with that which is stop looking for your significance at the macro level. Start looking at the micro level

level. Start looking at the micro level which is your love relationships around you. This is where people feel

you. This is where people feel significance.

>> Mhm.

>> People feel significance by having children. People feel significance by

children. People feel significance by getting married >> or adopting children >> or adopting children as I did. I did

both. You know we did it by markets and by biology.

And people feel significance by working through their religious tendencies >> to try to understand their relationship with the divine. This is how most people find significance. You don't find

find significance. You don't find significance by getting a million Instagram followers. You will never find

Instagram followers. You will never find significance by doing that. But that's

indeed what we're encouraged to do.

>> You won't find significance and adequate kind of stable significance by being the world's greatest angry activist. And

that's the the cult that's actually going on on college campuses all the time. the cult of activism which is kind

time. the cult of activism which is kind of a substitute religion.

>> Yeah.

>> Significance comes from love. Love is

the essence of significance and it's whom I love and who loves me. That's

what it comes down to. And you know if the answer is my spouse, my children, my parents, my friends, my creator.

>> Those are the big answers that people actually get. But you got to do the

actually get. But you got to do the work. You got to make the commitments

work. You got to make the commitments and do the work. And a lot of people today, one of the things I actually find in this book is that a lot of young people today don't have those micro commitments >> and they're trying to establish macro

significance, which is a big problem.

You're chasing your tail. It's unstable

and it's probably not even real in a lot of cases.

>> You mentioned something in passing that I think is really important. At least

I've come to believe it's helpful to at least try to unpack each person for themselves. substitute for religion.

themselves. substitute for religion.

>> So you mentioned this cult of the angry activist and activism has its place for sure. There are certain things that you

sure. There are certain things that you can >> I'm glad we've got >> harness anger for but over the long term it's not a clean fuel. So this

substitute for religion there is a there's a place called Eloyo here which is famous for its signs that it puts out front. There are books that collect

front. There are books that collect these. No,

these. No, >> Royo means the brook means the extremely >> like a royo for people who might have spent time in Mexico. That's a that's a long one. Anyway,

long one. Anyway, >> by the way, a royo as a surname in English is Brooks.

>> Oh, yeah. There you go. Look at that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. In German is Bach.

>> Yeah.

>> As a for a musician, I say coincidence.

So, the reason I bring up this joint in Austin is because they have these signs out front that are very funny that have been collected in books since like what if soy milk is just milk introducing itself in Spanish, right? Like very

funny stuff. They they put a lot of them. One is and one of them is if

them. One is and one of them is if someone is vegan and does CrossFit, which do they tell you about first?

Which I thought was pretty good. And

this ties into I believe it was something David Foster Wallace said, "Tragic character, brilliant on so many levels, but in effect, and people could track this down, I put it in my

newsletter at one point, but we all worship something. And task number one

worship something. And task number one is figuring out what you worship."

>> I think it's a graduation speech where you talked about that, right?

>> Right. So, if it's not religion, it's going to be something else. Is it money?

Is it fame? We talked about this a bit.

We did the four idols last time we talked.

>> Right. Exactly. Pleasure. That's where

where I landed for better and for worse.

>> And I'm wondering, it seems to me that religion belief in the divine might be another way to put it is is almost genetically programmed

in humans.

>> That's an anthropological empirical regularity. So what we find is that

regularity. So what we find is that anthropologist including paleo anthropologists find there's no civilization that they've ever encountered that doesn't worship >> right >> there are individuals who don't worship

but there are no cultures that don't have religious foundation to them we're built for that taking a closer look at that if people want to make the implicit explicit the subconscious conscious

which I think is really important because folks are gravitating to these pseudo religions whether it's crossfit veganism ketogenic Harvard Bitcoin, you

name it, famous university, >> whatever it might be.

>> Trying to put that on one's radar, I think, is helpful. But then the question is, okay, if this is hardwired, if this might actually be a constitutional psychological requirement,

>> how do you satisfy that requirement if you are not going to adopt an organized religion?

>> Yeah, I've looked for me, right? This is

very pleasant for me. I feel a lot of progress. for myself but I'd love to

progress. for myself but I'd love to hear you.

>> So this is a question not of religion but of transcendence.

>> Exactly. Exactly.

>> Transcendence is the phenomenon in which we move from the me self to the I self in the words of William James the father of psychology.

>> The eye self is looking out and including looking up and standing in awe. The me self is looking in the

awe. The me self is looking in the mirror and thinking about yourself.

>> Mhm. What we need to actually find meaning to find significance paradoxically is to look less at ourselves.

>> Significance the sense of significance comes from being this is really paradoxical and yet everybody will understand it when I say it. To feel

significance you need to be less significant. You need to make your less

significant. You need to make your less self less significant. Now I had this experience where at my university the most popular class arguably is astronomy 1.

>> And they're not astronomers. I mean,

they're like English majors and business majors, etc. They love the astronomy class. They flock to it. There's lines

class. They flock to it. There's lines

for the astronomy class. And so, I finally ask a students like, "Why do you love that astronomy 1 class so much?"

She's like, "I don't know." But like, I go in in the morning, Thursday morning at 9:00, and it's 90-minute class, and I'm bummed out because I just had an argument with my mom and I think I'm breaking up with my boyfriend, and I got

a B on a test, which at Harvard is like, "Tell the world, right? Your

excommunicator from the church of Harvard." I go in at 9:00 and at 10:30 I

Harvard." I go in at 9:00 and at 10:30 I come out and I say I'm a speck on a speck on a speck and I'm at peace.

That's transcendence. That's what it is.

This is standing awe. You've had Derk Kelner on your show before?

>> No.

>> He's one of the great psychologists of our time. He teaches at Berkeley and he

our time. He teaches at Berkeley and he has a book called Awe Aw. You know, I thought I recognized the name because I was just reading that book.

>> It's a great book.

>> I was just reading that book just a few months ago.

>> That's transcendence. is to stand in awe in the eye self looking out in awe of the universe things bigger than you. And

there's two dimensions of transcendence.

The first is to transcend upward and the others to transcend outward which is why worship of the divine spiritual and religious experiences do this and also service to others.

>> That's why they both have this kind of transcendent metaphysical experience that people actually get. And

that's why when you see moral beauty, somebody serving somebody else, it gives you that.

>> Rhett Diesner, the psychologist, who who by the way is Rain Wilson's uncle.

>> Yeah.

>> The world's leading expert in moral elevation and the physiological impact of moral elevation.

>> Rain is very philosophical also.

>> He's great. He's great friend. We're

great friends. We're We grew up 5 miles apart from each other in Seattle, the same age. Yeah. We didn't know each

same age. Yeah. We didn't know each other as kids, but we bonded over, you know, watching Gilligans Island on Channel 11 when we were in fifth grade or something. And it's really important

or something. And it's really important to keep in mind that there are ways to transcend and there are some really well-established ones to do it. I go to mass every day. It's a venerable way to experience transcendence

>> and there are other ways to experience transcendence. Now, I'm not going to

transcendence. Now, I'm not going to speak to the metaphysics of who's cosmically right. That's a completely

cosmically right. That's a completely different conversation. I don't know,

different conversation. I don't know, right? But I do know when it comes to

right? But I do know when it comes to transcendence because that's research that I've done. And Lisa Miller has done that. She teaches at Colombia. She does

that. She teaches at Colombia. She does

neuroscience and social psychology at Colombia. Mhm.

Colombia. Mhm.

>> She's the world's leading expert on how the brain requires transcendence. How

you get experiences that are completely inaccessible unless you experience transcendence. Lots of ways to do it.

transcendence. Lots of ways to do it.

You know, study the Stoics and live according to their dictates. Walk the

Brahma Mahorta an hour, you know, in the morning without devices. Starting before

dawn, practice of apostasa meditation, listen to the works of Johan Sebastian Bach and stand in awe of the greatest composer who ever lived. or go to mass.

>> I want to tee this up. I didn't know what your answer was going to be, but this is an area it is one of a few areas that have been of greatest interest and

focus for me for the last well one could argue since 200 probably 12 but it might even predate that particularly I would say in the last 5

years and for for people who are interested in digging into this and I suggest that almost everyone should be very deeply interested. You mentioned

the book awe.

>> Yeah.

>> There's also some fantastic writing and articles out of John's Hopkins related to awe. And if awe seems too abstract, I

to awe. And if awe seems too abstract, I mean, you could think of it as wonder.

You could think of it also as self-trcendence.

>> And I'm going to be shooting myself in the foot a little bit because I just wrote 10 pages on this that I need to refine before putting on my blog. But

people think of Maslo's hierarchy of needs as a pyramid. And at the top you have self-actualization.

In fact, the pyramid and that strict hierarchy were created by consultants and other people who commercialized the writings of Maslo who later revised that

to have self-trcendence >> at the top.

>> At the top >> at the top he talked about it much later in his career too because he got more religious as he got older.

>> Yeah.

>> People get more religious as they get older. They believe less in Santa Claus

older. They believe less in Santa Claus and more in God as they get older.

>> They believe more in death, too.

>> Yeah. Yeah. and life is messy and they they come to terms with that and Scott Bry Kaufman talks a lot about this you know the guy who is sort of the master of the dark triad and a lot of pathologies but he's also really good on

how >> to ask about the dark tri I've written a lot about the dark >> triad sounds like a great fantasy novel >> anybody who wants to know that that's your first husband >> I'm going to have to leave that alone

I'm going to resist it next time on the show just for a second >> this is important because self-trcendence is something that tends to happen a little it later, but it's not incompatible with lower order needs.

>> Do you mind if I just because I think this is the point you're driving at, right?

>> Yeah. Let me ride the ketones and caffeine for a moment here. The awe

self-trcendence wonder it seems perhaps abstracted might seem handwavy for people who have already achieved success. I don't think that's true at

success. I don't think that's true at all. And in fact, the happiest people,

all. And in fact, the happiest people, happy isn't exactly the right word, but the people who seem most at peace, calmst with regular joy in their lives,

good relationships, all have regular doses of self-trcendence.

>> Whether they are wilderness guides who do not make very much money, but they're spending a lot of time in nature, a lot of time with their loved ones, a lot of time in expansive landscapes, right?

Whether those are musicians and poets who have figured out how to kind of ride the lightning without suffering too much from the low lows. There are regular

ways to do this and I cannot recommend strongly enough some form of meditative practice whether that is prayer with you

know your rosary right >> our friend travels with the rosary and also with blood flow restriction cuffs but that's a story for another time >> I'm not doing blood flow restriction with a rosary

>> no exactly right I mean you could I guess that could be interesting maybe that's the next niche on your Instagram feed The reason that I bring up

meditation is because I think one of the easiest paths to self-trcendence and to significance in your life is training

your awareness so that the mundane becomes miraculous.

>> Mhm. And when you start to recognize how unbelievably insane it is that we are even conscious to begin with having this experience and you start to

notice how incredible the little things are which require you to not be distracted requires you to >> breathe and pay attention. It's not that

complicated. It can be challenging. Then

complicated. It can be challenging. Then

you start to perceive almost everything as significant without focusing on establishing your own significance.

>> True. And I have just found that to be such an unbburdening when you realize that you can do things and should do things that help you feel like you are

contributing that help you feel like you're having an impact on something other than yourself, whether it's someone or something, but that in fact

self-help, self-development can really be a sort of exercise in selfobsession.

>> Totally. And therein lies the seeds of misery.

>> For sure it is. Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

me me me me me me me me. And your point about paying attention to what would ordinarily be thought of as mundane, my father who was a lifelong Christian, he always said, you know, people talk about the miracle of walking on water. You

know what the real miracle is? Water.

>> Yeah.

And another point based on what you just said, which is really important is self-trcendence is really great being more in the eye self, but you also need to do the work to be less in the me self.

>> Mhm. And that means getting rid of the mirrors in your life. We have way too many mirrors. I had I had a guy who

many mirrors. I had I had a guy who worked on my back.

>> He was a guy who worked on Tom Brady's back in in Boston. So he's the best guy.

I mean, if Tom Brady can >> He was phenomenal. And I asked him, you know, what did you do before you were this this incredible acupuncturist and, you know, great physical therapist. And

he said, I used to be a fitness influencer. I'm like, dude, tell me

influencer. I'm like, dude, tell me more. Like, what's his life all about?

more. Like, what's his life all about?

And as a social scientist, it was really interesting. and he would take off his,

interesting. and he would take off his, you know, shirt and, you know, be on social media and show his abs and then, you know, sell supplements or something.

And I said, "How was it?" He says, "Awful. I didn't eat what I wanted for

"Awful. I didn't eat what I wanted for 10 years.

>> I was so lonely. It was so awful. And I

was so ill."

>> And I said, "So, how'd you get out of it? How'd you how'd you cure yourself?"

it? How'd you how'd you cure yourself?"

And he said, "You know, I said, I had enough. I, you know, I got rid of my

enough. I, you know, I got rid of my social media. I took every mirror out of

social media. I took every mirror out of my house, >> all of them, bathroom, everyone. And

then I I showered in the dark for a year, so I couldn't see my abs.

>> Oh, the cross we bear.

>> No, but that's like the most Tim Ferrris thing ever is the I self protocol or the And he said he was cured. So not just serving other people more, worshiping

more, whatever it happens to be, but also militating against the me self. And

that's not just physical mirrors, it's the notifications on your social media.

Yeah. is there's lots and lots of metaphorical mirrors that are that are making you miserable all the time. What

are other ways of facilitating self transcendence? I for instance, I've

self transcendence? I for instance, I've interviewed BJ Miller as a hospice care physician. I interviewed him a long time

physician. I interviewed him a long time ago and he talked about for instance at the end of life some of the most meaningful experiences were not these deep conversations about the meaning of

it all necessarily but like baking cookies together, >> right? He talked about introducing

>> right? He talked about introducing people who are weeks or months from dying to art, >> right? Because he wants to induce a flow

>> right? Because he wants to induce a flow state.

>> Yeah, >> that's what we're talking about. One of

the great things about, you know, transcendence is so Mikai Chik Mikai, who wrote the great book flow. Oh,

>> that's how you pronounce his damn name.

>> Chik Mikai consonants.

>> It's tough, man. That's a tough name. He

talked about the fact that you have a transcendent experience when you're in a state that is the state of self- forgetting. That's what flow is. It's

forgetting. That's what flow is. It's

intensely pleasurable for any of us at any particular time. And so we established the first way is you know worship or meditation. The second is service to others. But the third is really total absorption is total

absorption. The kind of thing that you

absorption. The kind of thing that you do which by the way is one of the reasons not to wear headphones when you're working out.

>> Yeah.

>> The one of the reasons to be fully there when you're working out to establish a mind muscle connection when you're working out. It might sound trit but it

working out. It might sound trit but it really is because you should be able to attain something of a flow state when you're working out. Otherwise, it's an hour of misery that you're going to want to distract yourself from. So what? So

you've got like better calves. It's just

so dumb, which is the ultimate me self kind of experience. So that's really the third way to do it >> is find your thing is what it comes down to. And by the way, my protocols lead up

to. And by the way, my protocols lead up to four hours of writing. That four

hours goes by in minutes >> because it's a flow state >> and I'm having a transcendent experience. I'm in an self transcendent

experience. I'm in an self transcendent experience.

>> Mhm.

>> It's not me. It's like some other guy's writing this thing. I don't know what's going I click ity clickity clickity click.

>> Mhm.

>> And before I know it, my wife says, "You want lunch?"

want lunch?" >> Nature seems like another option.

>> Yeah.

>> It's so simple. Just walk barefoot.

>> Mhm.

>> Outside for a few minutes. Look, if it's 2 ft of snow, it might be harder, but to the extent that you can, like try to get your feet on the ground.

>> Beauty. Beauty. What an interesting bizarre thing in and of itself. I

actually wanted to look semi-professional as I try to on occasion. And instead of holding loose

occasion. And instead of holding loose paper, I was going to bring a clipboard.

Couldn't find a clipboard. So, I was like, well, I'm going to bring a book.

>> And I don't know if you've ever seen this particular artist, but I wanted to pass it to you. Have you ever seen Andy Goldworth?

>> I've heard of this. Yeah.

>> All right. So, this is >> using pure nature.

>> This is Andy Goldsworthy, a collaboration with nature. Everybody

should get this book. But check out some of the images in there.

>> This is the idea of beauty of working with nature as opposed to against it.

>> It's using natural found objects, whether trees, leaves, >> crystals, a circle of dandelions. It is

the most mindbogling.

If James Terrell were to only work with organic materials outside of a Hobbit house, what would they look like?

They're just absolutely entrancing would be the the word I would use. And so this is the book I want to use as my clipboard.

>> I like it. And this is of course transcendent. This is the at the essence

transcendent. This is the at the essence of using human ingenuity in a flight of fancy.

>> You know, this is pure harmony between who we are and what we're meant to be.

Mhm.

>> I love it. And you know, this is harder and harder to do in an environment in which we're living in the simulation.

>> Mhm.

>> This is life out of the simulation effectively. This is who I am, but

effectively. This is who I am, but outside of the matrix, which is why it's so striking and strange.

>> Tell me more.

>> So, the transcendent experiences, the one thing, the one place that they don't happen is in a simulated experience of human life. fundamentally transcendent

human life. fundamentally transcendent experiences require being fully alive.

There's a you know the great 4th century sage and saint St. Irenaeus who was one of these guys where I mean today it's like pretty costless to be religious like me >> and those days I you might get your head cut off >> right

>> and he was doing a lot of deep thinking and he said the glory of God is a man fully alive >> it wasn't a gendered comment a person fully alive is the glory of God so then the real question is what does it mean

for me to be fully alive and I ask my students are you fully alive when you get up and the first thing you do is you pick up your phone which is by the side of your bed and check in with the

universe that's being mediated through the small screen. And then you do your work on the Zoom and then your friends are on social media and your dating is on the app and your progress is made

through your score on your gaming and your relationships are stripped of their humanity because you're looking at pornography.

Are you or are you not fully alive?

>> And if the answer is you're not fully alive, the reason for that is because you're living a simulated life. And a

simulated life, it just Tim isn't beautiful.

>> And a simulated life means you're cosplaying life.

>> That's right. And this is one of the things that I found in my interviews for this book as well. I kept hearing meaning meaning. But you're talking to a

meaning meaning. But you're talking to a lot of 27 and 28 year olds and their affect is very flat because they're telling you the same story over and over again.

>> And this is where the penny dropped.

This guy says, 27-y old guy, he said, "I really do feel like I'm not living a real life. I really feel like I'm living

real life. I really feel like I'm living in a simulation every day. And I don't know how to break out because my job is fully remote because I can't meet women

on the corner and say like Bill Aman said on social media the other day. He

said, "When should come up to women and say, I would like to meet you." What

does that mean? And watch them run in terror, right? You know, cuz my friends

terror, right? You know, cuz my friends really are virtual friends. Mhm.

>> Because my sense of achievement really is what I can actually do with this gaming experience or whatever it happens to be that I've gotten really good at.

How am I supposed to do that? I don't

know how to break out of this, but I know it's not right. I know something's not right. It's like, here's the funny

not right. It's like, here's the funny thing. Your brain, you can kind of be

thing. Your brain, you can kind of be fooled. The touring test can be passed

fooled. The touring test can be passed with respect to the kind of experience you think you're having, but then there's a deep knowing.

>> You can't simulate the meaning of your life. You can only live the meaning of

life. You can only live the meaning of your life.

>> A simulation is a complicated similacrim for the complex experiences of human life. And that's a non-trivial use of

life. And that's a non-trivial use of language.

>> This is pops over dinner, right?

>> Exactly. A complicated problem is that which is very very hard to solve, but once you solve it, it's static and you can do it again and again and again.

>> Engineering problem.

>> It's an engineering problem. It's a how and what problem. Complex problems are super easy to understand and impossible to solve. And I'll give you an example.

to solve. And I'll give you an example.

Making a jet engine is a complicated problem. We didn't do it for a long

problem. We didn't do it for a long time. Making a toaster is a complicated

time. Making a toaster is a complicated problem. I mean, I defy you to build

problem. I mean, I defy you to build your own toaster with tool with stuff in your you'll burn your house down if you're trying to make your own toaster.

It's a complicated problem, right? My

marriage is a complex problem. I

understand what it means to love and be loved. I can't put it into words. I'm

loved. I can't put it into words. I'm

not Pablo Nuda, but I understand what it means to love and be loved, right? But I

will never solve my marriage.

>> Mhm. Tim, this morning before we started, Esther texted me, I love you.

And she does. And when we finish, I'm going to turn my phone back on again.

She might be pissed off at me. I don't

know.

>> Mhm.

>> I don't know. And part of this is cuz she's Spanish. And you know, that adds a

she's Spanish. And you know, that adds a layer of complexity in and of itself.

But that's the point of my marriage. The

things I care about in life are complex.

They're not solvable. They're only

livable. And so if I take a complicated similacum of anything, I'm doing it wrong because I'm not going to be satisfied and my brain's going to know.

How much of the malaise associated with the feeling of being in a similacrim is resolved just by having more in-person human interactions?

Because the older I get, and maybe this is just the path of people as they age, I don't know, but I have one foot in the cutting edge,

bleeding edge technology. I'm fascinated

by the latest advancements in you name it, doesn't matter.

>> AI, neuroscience, >> I'm very involved.

>> Biologics, all of it.

>> The last 24 hours, I've had conversations with three or four scientists, all at the cutting edge of different fields. I love it.

different fields. I love it.

>> Me, too. Simultaneously, I feel like we should pay attention, and this is I guess I'm not borrowing, but certainly I'm in lock step with like Nasim Talb on this, which is paying attention to

things that have persisted for very, very long periods of time.

>> And also paying attention to evolutionary biology. It's like we are

evolutionary biology. It's like we are evolved to be very social creatures moving through physical space together.

>> Yes.

>> Full stop. And if you take that away, if you take one or the other away, >> right, you're in trouble.

>> You're in big trouble. And you don't have to understand all the myriad mechanisms by which this and that happens and 15 different hormones

interact to produce some type of subjective experience. It's like if we

subjective experience. It's like if we have evolved with these things as constants over millennia upon millennia, maybe it's a good idea.

>> Yeah, that's right. keep them as regular ingredients in your daily experience.

>> We know why. We know why the need exists. We know exactly neuroscientists

exists. We know exactly neuroscientists know exactly what you're talking about.

And this is the theory of hemispheric lateralization. Again, very simple idea

lateralization. Again, very simple idea with complicated words for tenure.

This is the theory that's being most popularized right now, but probably the most visionary cutting edge neuroscientist living today, who is Ian McIllchrist at Oxford.

>> Yeah. He wrote the master and his emissary back in 2010. And the master and his emissary talks about the fact that the two hemispheres of the brain do many things the same but fundamentally

they get at the your two needs which is to figure stuff out to dominate world's problems to make progress and to feel fully alive by being a beloved person.

Why? We have two hemispheres of the brain that do those complicated things.

That's the left hemisphere. How and

what? And the complex things which is the why questions that's the right hemisphere of the brain. All of the mystery, the meaning, the love, the happiness that's processed in the right

hemisphere of the brain. And how you go out and do stuff is in the left hemisphere. The problem is modern life.

hemisphere. The problem is modern life.

This gets into the meaning crisis has pushed us all into the left hemisphere of our brain and slam shut the door to the right. Everything that we're doing

the right. Everything that we're doing from workcoholism to hustle culture to making sure that people don't study humanities, they only study STEM and

most especially to the semolacum, the technologized similacrim for ordinary life. That's all left hemisphere. And if

life. That's all left hemisphere. And if

you're on the left hemisphere, you're going to know how and what and how and what and how and what. And you're going to be bereft of why, including the big why questions which make up the meaning

of your life. And so the solution, where is meaning to be found? It's the right hemisphere of your brain. How do you open it up? That's the meaning protocols. And it really comes down to

protocols. And it really comes down to these very simple ideas that we've already been exploring. And and it comes down to this. There's something that I promise you that great-grandfather Ferris never said to your great

grandmother, which was, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today." And

the reason is cuz it wasn't a thing. And

the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. His life

was pretty boring and it was boring from day to day. Objectively boring, but he never said, "My childhood was boring."

>> Yeah.

>> His right hemisphere was exercised as well as his left hemisphere. And the

result is he didn't have flooding of the HPA axis. He wasn't morbidly depressed

HPA axis. He wasn't morbidly depressed for no apparent reason. He didn't live in a in a in a world of affluence and yet feel like he was experiencing nothing. And the reason is his brain was

nothing. And the reason is his brain was working the way it was supposed to work.

This was not a policy problem. This was

a neurohysiological problem that he didn't have and that we have actually today. And so the result is we have to

today. And so the result is we have to live in an extraordinary way that was ordinary 100 years ago. The simulation

we really need is the old-fashioned life is what comes about because almost all of the things that I talk about in my research that people can experience if they actually put some work into it is

to open up the right hemisphere of the brain and do what was absolutely ordinary not that long ago, three generations ago, as a matter of fact.

>> Complicated versus complex. I like the distinction. And also having just come

distinction. And also having just come back, just brief aside, every year I do this past year review. I'm going to be doing that in the next few weeks. Me

too.

>> Look at my top relationships. Top

defined as dear close relationships that are reliably nourishing for everybody involved and energizing. And then I book time in the next year, more time with

all those people.

>> Mhm.

>> I establish these relationships and then I book more time with them in the subsequent year.

>> Yeah. And often with extended trips, I just came back from a trip with a number of my very close friends. And I look at some of the basics and I think it's

replicable where 3 days into it, granted these are my close friends, but I challenge anyone if you put in 20,000 steps a day and you compliment, let's just say, two of your close friends and

three strangers and tell me by the end of the week that you don't feel better, right? Just like

right? Just like >> and check your phone only 10 times, >> right? Yeah. Exactly. There's simplicity

>> right? Yeah. Exactly. There's simplicity

right on the other side. And if you do those things, by the way, you will probably be checking your phone a lot less hopefully. I want to touch on

less hopefully. I want to touch on something because I know we, as expected, are going to run out of time before we run out of topics to talk about, but I'll let you pick where you

want to go first. So, there's there's a line here that I have or it's more more phrasing that I want to hear you expand on. Your suffering is sacred. And then

on. Your suffering is sacred. And then

there is a line here which is treat your life like a pilgrimage that opens your mind and heart so life's meaning can find you.

>> Mhm.

>> So those are both interesting to me, right? Your suffering is sacred and so

right? Your suffering is sacred and so that life's meaning can find you because most people think of themselves as going out to find >> meaning if they think about it at all.

>> So dealer's choice. Yeah.

>> Which one would you like to?

>> We'll start with suffering because suffering is the most misunderstood thing in in most of modern life. We have

an eliminationist strategy toward especially mental suffering. We see big increases in depression and anxiety. And

if you go to campus counseling at any university and you're going to say, "I'm feel sad and anxious. We got to fix that."

that." >> Mhm.

>> You know, you have some therapy. There

might be some psychiatric medications involved. And I have nothing against

involved. And I have nothing against therapy or psychiatric medications. It

saved the lives of people in my family.

>> Mhm.

>> But the truth of the matter is that suffering per se is life itself.

>> I mean, that's the first noble truth of Buddhism, Duka. But it also suggests

Buddhism, Duka. But it also suggests that you have a working lybic system which is your alarm system for threats in the environment. Negative emotion is exists as a threat system as a threat

alarm system and negative experiences is the only way that you learn. There's a

reason that great philosophers always say the suffering is your teacher >> because suffering is the ultimate complex right hemisphere experience that teaches you about the meaning of your life. And if you try to eliminate your

life. And if you try to eliminate your suffering you'll inadvertently eliminate meaning.

>> That's what will happen. The worst

mistake that people can make is trying not to suffer. I still tell my students, these are MBA students at Harvard. I say

you're studying at Harvard University getting your MBAs. If you're not sad and anxious, you need therapy.

>> Something's wrong with you if you're actually not suffering. So the real question is how can you learn and grow from it? The math that Buddhists have

from it? The math that Buddhists have about suffering is as following.

Suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance.

>> Pain times resistance. Oh, that's good.

>> And it's really important because what we know about that is that people are trying to lower their suffering by lowering their level of pain.

>> And what they should be doing is actually understanding and putting into proper context and proportion their suffering by lowering their level of resistance.

>> Resistance.

>> That's what it comes down to. And every

good athlete understands that.

>> And by the way, just very quickly, >> the meditation that I was describing and recommending is effectively that. Yes.

>> It's lowering your resistance to everything that you would be inclined to resist. My students have a little mantra

resist. My students have a little mantra they start at the beginning of the day that say I am truly grateful for the pleasant things that are going to happen this day in the Psalms. This is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice

and be glad in it. And I'm also truly grateful for the troubles I'm going to face because my learning and growth will come from these troubles. Bring them on.

And that's this like bracing. And I say this every day when I because I'm going to suffer today. And Tim, you're going to suffer today. And if you try to eliminate that suffering, all you're trying to do is lower your pain level to

ephemerally and artificially and ineffectually lower your suffering.

>> And that psalm might as well have been also put right next to Marcus Aurelius meditations.

>> Absolutely. I mean, Christian thinking is heavily influenced by the Stoics.

>> They were contemporaneous.

>> Yeah.

>> This is why they sound so familiar to each other. And the whole idea is like

each other. And the whole idea is like you got a choice. You can learn and grow from your suffering or you can try to avoid your suffering and and have the same amount of suffering and not learn and grow.

>> Yeah.

>> What do you choose? And that's what it comes down to. So that's the most difficult lesson but the most bracing and empowering lesson about how to find meaning in your life is to lean into your suffering and you will find your

meaning.

>> And that's what grandpa Ferris had to do because he had no choice. He had no therapist. He didn't even have Advil,

therapist. He didn't even have Advil, >> you know.

And so that's what I'm talking about.

Then the second point that you made, the second question you asked is when you're in search to get presents, you're in search, search, search, search. There's

a mistake that people commonly make was thinking if I search enough, I'm going to find. Seek and you shall find. Knock

to find. Seek and you shall find. Knock

and the door shall be opened unto you.

But the process is a little bit counterintuitive and different. Every

religious tradition has a protocol for finding truth. And that is to make a

finding truth. And that is to make a pilgrimage in which point it is revealed that your truth finds you. Now there's a lot of ways that that's described in the Bhagavad Gita where going to the

birthplace of the Lord Krishna in Matura in the Hindi heartland in Christianity for the community of the Santiago which I've walked twice across the ancient route of 1,100 years old doing the Hajj

if you're a Muslim >> what you find is that when you when you make a pilgrimage that's a metaphor for your life >> and the end of the pilgrimage is the metaphor of the ultimate goal of life

which in you know Abrahamic religions is heaven.

Right? And it's it's the end of samsara in the karmic religions or whatever it happens to be is they're reuniting with the godhead in the Hindu body of religions.

>> But the bottom line is that what's most important is is actually what's happening to you in the process of this pilgrimage. And what actually happens to

pilgrimage. And what actually happens to you neurobiologically is that you beat yourself to the point that you have an open aperture

>> so that you're no longer in a defensive crouch such that you're weak. You weaken

yourself on purpose. This is why you walk 25 km a day and you're walking on blisters and you're actually inducing this amount of pain. And I remember this the first time I walked my commino. I

was in a a liinal space in my career. I

just stepped down as the CEO of this big think tank and I I didn't know what I was going to do. I mean, I was 55 years old and I was spent, dude. I was out of gas. I was burnt out. I'd been working

gas. I was burnt out. I'd been working 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my kids growing up. I made mistakes, right?

They stuck with me by the grace of God.

>> And I was walking the Camino day after day after day. I was praying and I was I was tired and I was in pain. And when I entered into Santiago de Compostella, this medieval city in northern Spain,

and I saw the cathedral, I realized that my mission was to spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love using science and ideas to be a

scientist in the public interest, but for love and happiness. And I didn't find that

>> it found me. Question, how did that appear? Was it drop by drop? Was it a

appear? Was it drop by drop? Was it a Japanese breakfast on a silver platter in your mind? I mean, did did it all come at once or was it bits and pieces that you slowly were able to weave

together? It was bit by bit because it's

together? It was bit by bit because it's not this epiphany. It's not like falling off my horse on the road to Damascus in, you know, temporary blindness, which is probably, you know, temporal epilepsy in the case of St. Paul. But

>> it was a realization. It was a realization. It was something that had

realization. It was something that had already existed out there. It felt like it came to me little by little, particularly over the last couple of days. The last couple of days of the

days. The last couple of days of the pilgrimage, it was what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to return to my roots

do? I'm supposed to return to my roots as a scientist and to use that as missionary work for, you know, greater love and happiness to get into the mission field as a behavioral scientist going back to the roots of what I've

actually learned. Why? What do I want

actually learned. Why? What do I want for me and for everybody? I want more love. I want more happiness. I want more

love. I want more happiness. I want more meaning. That's what I want for me and

meaning. That's what I want for me and for everybody because that's the sustenance of actually what we need. Did

that want come into high resolution in part because of the nature of that particular pilgrimage, the religious connotations and the

prayer along the way or do you think that that was already a little beneath the surface and waiting to come out and it would have come out in a different environment the different >> that's a good question. It's an

empirical question, but I will say that all of the components of the pilgrimage, not to be metaphysical about, not to be mystical about it at all, all the components of a pilgrimage, which is the physical difficulty, the strain that

actually comes from it, the intense effort that you're making while away from these technological distractions, the work that I'm doing on my relationship with God and my wife with whom I'm holding her hand and praying the rosary.

>> You did the pilgrimage with your wife.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I would have done 33 days except she's like, "No." Yeah.

>> So, we did the last eight, right? And

all of these things turn out to be the ways that you open the vault of the right hemisphere of your brain where the mysticism is actually found, the mystical side of your brain, which I believe God creates for a reason, but it

might just be nature and it might just be a coincidence.

>> But the bottom line is you must open that door. And all the things you do in

that door. And all the things you do in a pilgrimage open that door. And also if it is nature it serves some very important at least from an evolutionary

perspective function.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean when you look back at just like the history of science but just to take a slight digression at all the many things that we thought were junk DNA all the many things that we thought were vestigial all the many things that we

thought were just left over and nature forgot to get rid of it.

>> Male nipples.

>> Yeah. Male nipples. I still don't have a great explanation or a great use for. I

mean, maybe I'm sure I'll get some suggestions on X. But

>> let's watch the comments, Tim.

>> Yeah, the comments. I'm sure we'll have plenty of suggestions, but I mean, it's half your brain along with the, you know, everyone needs whatever, eight

glasses of water a day and can only have 30 g of protein at a given sit in. We

only use 10% of our brain. Not true.

Like, we use all of it.

>> True. Absolutely. I mean, that was a thing when I was a kid in the 70s. Oh,

if you can get access to the other 90% and then a a science fiction story will have the person who knows how to use the other 90% it can fly or something.

>> Really embracing and fully utilizing that right hemisphere kind of characterized the capacities that you're mentioning. I have just found it to be

mentioning. I have just found it to be such an incredible unlock for me in so many ways and just to deepen the semataensory

and psychological texture of life. Like

you really need that right side at least as you're describing it.

>> I've seen this in your work by the way.

I've been very aware and familiar with your work for a long time.

>> And the typical algorithm for people who are seekers is to start on the left side.

>> Yeah.

>> And then they find their way to the right.

>> Yeah. You become more spiritual, more mystical, more cosmic in your outlook as you've gotten older.

>> Yeah.

>> You wouldn't write the 4-hour body the same way today.

>> I'm sure you wouldn't.

>> I stand by all the tactical stuff.

>> I love it. I love I read that book. I

just really enjoyed it. I mean, I learned a lot from it, but it's a very leftbrain approach.

>> Yeah.

>> And you realize in your own life, as people generally do, that you needed the right hemisphere as well.

>> And so that's why you talk about it's like, why is why is Tim getting all mystical again? No, no, no. He's

mystical again? No, no, no. He's

actually moving hemispherically into the full brain.

>> Well, also it's like the how to the technician's side, the kind of engineering problem of let's just call it self-improvement, whether that's

physical cognitive psycho emotional what is that in service of? For most

people, if they ask why a few times, they're trying to improve their quality of life >> and the quality of the lives around them they care most for. To do that you need

to do things like distinguish between the me self and the I self. Anthony Dlo

has a lot of really good writing on this as well.

>> You need to lower resistance, >> right? Which you could think of is also

>> right? Which you could think of is also >> paying very close attention to the serenity prayer >> or stoicism or fill in the blank. And

there's something to be said, I think, when I also have conversations with some of the most, as far as I can tell, at peace, reconciled, but yet still

productive in the world people, whether that's Henry Shookman, who I mentioned, or the Jack Kornfields, or CEOs who also pay attention to these things, they are

all reading and learning from people, whether it's the Christian mystics, >> whether it's Roomie. So, Sufi,

mysticism, you go down the line, it's all the same thing. Zen Buddhism, when I check my Wi-Fi connection, I always go to daily zen.com and occasionally you find something that's pretty

interesting. They're all talking about

interesting. They're all talking about the same stuff, >> right?

>> Maybe we should take a gander to put a point at what you just said. The meaning

of life comes from the right hemisphere of your brain. And you can't get to the right by going further and further left.

>> No, >> that's probably a political point, too.

I'm not sure. But but this is a problem that a lot of people have. They want

more and more and more. I mean, I've got protocols. I got protocols of the wazoo,

protocols. I got protocols of the wazoo, man.

>> Yeah.

>> But protocols aren't it. What they can do is they can facilitate. It's it's the same thing. People ask me all the time,

same thing. People ask me all the time, how is AI going to interact with happiness?

>> The answer is that AI is an adjunct to the left hemisphere of your brain. The

way that it can bring you happiness is that if you do leftbrain things with it, thus freeing up a whole bunch of time that you then use to deepen your relationships in real life with real people. That's an algorithm right there,

people. That's an algorithm right there, man.

>> Yeah. The way that you won't get it is if you try to use it as an adjunct to the right hemisphere of your brain by making it your lover, friend, or therapist. Or if you use it to do

therapist. Or if you use it to do certain things more quickly so that you can simply consume the quote unquote free time you've created with more left

dominant >> by frittering away your time, >> which is what I predict most people will do. So the idea of this

do. So the idea of this >> so the era of leisure time >> I know >> is on its face pretty ridiculous because that's been predicted with every advance in technology but

>> exactly when we started off by talking about the technology that I use which is my morning protocol >> the morning protocol per se is not the secret to happiness >> it instantiates it enables

>> it's a scaffolding >> it's what it is is an architecture such that I can actually have the freedom >> to live in the right hemisphere my brain and find the meaning of my life. That's

what all of these protocols are. That's

why, you know, blood flow restriction is a is a leftbrain protocol. But the

reason that you do anything like that is because ultimately what you want is more freedom in a way. More freedom to spend it in what really matters most in your life, which is more love.

>> It's more love. It's more meaning. It's

more significance. It's more coherence.

It's more purpose.

>> I want to end where I promised we would end. and the meaning of your life. This

end. and the meaning of your life. This

is the new book, Finding Purpose in an Asian optimist. I love your writing. I

Asian optimist. I love your writing. I

love your thinking. People should

absolutely check out the book. I need to ask you briefly about a specific element of your evening routine and wind down.

And that is personal evening reading.

>> Yeah. What do you read before you go to bed? Before I go to bed, I read

bed? Before I go to bed, I read something that's not trying to educate me better, but trying to be generative to me. I want to use, and again, this is

to me. I want to use, and again, this is very leftrain thinking. I want my sleep to be concentrated in the hemisphere of my brain that'll bring me the most

meaning. And what you read before you

meaning. And what you read before you sleep will actually stimulate the part of your brain that you're going to use most while you sleep. It's one of the reasons that if you want to remember something, >> read about it right before you go to

sleep. and you'll actually remember, but

sleep. and you'll actually remember, but you won't learn something you don't know, but you will remember something better.

>> That's the reason that I read the Psalms. >> Actually, I like to have the Psalms read to me in a feminine Spanish accent.

>> Sounds great. Sign me up.

>> I read love poetry.

>> So, do you have any favorite psalms? And

then love poetry. What are we talking?

>> Well, actually, we are talking about Naruna.

>> Yeah.

>> The greatest love poet ever. Mhm.

>> The chalan love poet in Spanish which pronounced in Spanish from your beloved is like a narcotic >> and yet won't ruin your life. The psalms

psalm 121 any of the psalms actually because they they have the a different flavor as you work your way through them.

>> The first psalm he is like a tree planted by streams of water who prospers in all that he does. the idea of God's promise and love for you, Tim, and that promise and absorbing that promise of

the intense love for you, which is the essence of significance at the metaphysical level >> and absorbing that and having it read to you or reading it or having it read to you is so significant. That's a

beautiful thing to do and that's a great part of the evening protocol. The

evening protocol is, you know, happiness and better sleep, deeper love, generativity in the nighttime hours, which by the way for me are a torment.

I'm a terrible sleeper.

>> Yeah, me too. I'm terrible. And you

can't get the machine off. Right.

>> Machine. You talking about >> You can't get the machine. There's no

off switch.

>> Right. The off switch. I've become much much better at it. Much better. But that

has for my entire life been the >> Yeah.

>> the ruminative >> Yeah.

>> challenge is that I lay down to go to sleep and my mind is like, I've been waiting all day to tell you so many things.

>> I know.

>> There's some things we need to discuss here.

>> Yeah. Exactly. You're probably wondering why I gathered you here tonight. Exactly

right. The boss has something on his mind. I know. I know. I know. And it's

mind. I know. I know. I know. And it's

when your spouse or your partner is a good sleeper, that can be really problematic because then they'll have a heavy conversation with you and they go, >> "Oh, yeah. No, that's a no-fly zone."

>> That's with my wife.

>> Yeah, that is for both.

>> But there is actually part of the protocol that's really important for everybody watching us who doesn't sleep alone is actually the oxytocin protocol, which is, as we all know, the love molecule, the bonding neuropeptide that

functions as a hormone in the brain.

Women have three times as much as men.

>> Mhm.

>> Side note, here's how you fix every marriage. You do four things. Number

marriage. You do four things. Number

one, you have more fun together as opposed to rehearsing grievance. More

fun, less grievance.

>> Therapy is like grievance, grievance, grievance. And have more fun together.

grievance. And have more fun together.

Number two, >> and how long have you been married?

>> 34 years.

>> Mhm. Okay.

>> Second is pray together >> because you're the fusion one flesh.

This is the fusion of the right hemispheres of your brains.

>> This is the goal. If you get married to him, the goal is to fuse your right hemispheres. The best way to do that is

hemispheres. The best way to do that is by meditating together, is by praying together, is by doing right hemisphere activity together.

>> The third protocol is to make eye contact whenever you talk.

>> Never be talking without making eye contact. Way more important for your

contact. Way more important for your wife than it is for you.

>> Way more important because she gets three times as much oxytocin, which means she's better at bonding, but it also means that she's better at starving when she's not getting enough oxytocin.

eye contact from the beloved which is you know when you have eye contact with a newborn baby oxytocin is like a fourth of July inside your head which is why you wouldn't leave the baby on the bus because suddenly the baby's kin right

it's an evolved phenomenon and last but not least is remember ABT always be touching always be touching always be touching more important for men than for women as a matter of fact that's why when you're with your beloved and she

hooks her arm into your arm while you're walking down the street you're like I'm big and strong why because that's super important so the Last thing before you go to bed, when you're reading to each

other or when you're talking, go five minutes earlier to bed. 5 minutes

earlier to bed and stare at each other.

>> And it's hard.

>> Yeah.

>> It's scary. It's like the eyes according to St. Paul are the windows to the soul

to St. Paul are the windows to the soul >> and that's when you know you really feel it. And biologically the reason is

it. And biologically the reason is because oxytocin is like old faithful >> for her. She will love you more if you have 5 to 10 minutes of intense eye

contact before you go to sleep while you're holding hands under the covers.

And by the way, for anyone who has not tried this, >> you've done this, right?

>> I have done this.

>> 5 to 10 minutes is so long.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> It's really intense. You could start lower right?

>> You can start lower. But here's the most intense exercise you can do if you want like the break glass plan for fixing your relationship. Right? Here's what

your relationship. Right? Here's what

you do.

>> You stand in front of each other staring at each other in the eyes silent.

>> And you hold your arms out to the side like in an iron cross holding hands like this for eight minutes.

>> And so what's going on here?

>> The Shaolin monk therapy school.

>> Yeah. You know, it's super painful. And

it's going to be more painful for you because after about four minutes, you're holding her arms up, right? So these

like five lb weights in each hand and so you're in intense excruciating pain while having your soul opened with a crowbar, right? And this is like intense

crowbar, right? And this is like intense therapy.

>> How did you arrive at this?

>> I've experimented with this and also I read the research, right? And and I participated in the research. I've

actually done this a number of times.

There's a number of religious traditions that will do exercises actually that are like this.

>> I did one in Spain last year. It's

called El Proto Moroyal and that's the marital love project. It's a very big deal across Spain. It's not in English yet. And so it was in a little retreat

yet. And so it was in a little retreat center outside Madrid. And we were seeing cuz my wife and I we do a lot of talks together and you know we counsel couples that are that are engaged etc.

This is our side hustle, right? Is you

know helping people fall in love and stay in love.

>> Yeah.

>> And so we were like what's this method everybody's so crazy about? We were

doing stuff like this. I was like holy mackerel. I mean, because they don't

mackerel. I mean, because they don't know how much neuroscience they're actually doing.

>> Somebody came up with this and said, I wonder if this works. It's like

>> it's really, really heavy. It's just

topnotch >> neuroscience matched up with it's as left and right brain as you can get.

>> Wow. And also, not yet in English. That

sounds like a job for Arthur Brooks and some AI tools >> and Esther Brooks. She's she's the spiritual leader in our family.

>> Yeah, there you go. Job for Esther who wouldn't need the AI.

>> Arthur always. so much fun to spend time together. Thank you for taking the time.

together. Thank you for taking the time.

>> Thank you, Tim. Thank you for what you're bringing into the world. Even

when I'm not in person, I'm with you virtually and you enrich my life.

>> Oh, thanks, man. This is Boy, talk about lucky timing. All the serendipity

lucky timing. All the serendipity required to end up with this as a job.

>> Remarkable. And I get get to spend time with people like yourself. The meaning

of your life, folks. Check it out. You

can get it everywhere books are sold.

and people can find you at arthurbrooks.com on all the socials.

>> Yeah, >> presumably. Is there anything else you

>> presumably. Is there anything else you would like to share? Anything else you'd like to say or request to my audience?

Anything at all before we wind to a close? If you don't know what to do

close? If you don't know what to do today and meeting feels out of reach, turn off your device and go love somebody. And it doesn't really matter

somebody. And it doesn't really matter how you feel because love is an act.

It's a commitment. It's a decision. and

you'll lift up yourself and that person and a little bit of the whole world.

Happiness is love. Boom. I think that is a perfect place to end. And folks, we'll link to everything as usual.

tim.blog/mpodcast.

Go love somebody, including yourself.

Right on. See you next time. Thanks for

tuning in.