At-Tibyān Podcast Emergency Edition | Ep. 34

We decreed on and we revealed to them

that you will cause mischief on earth.

>> You went over four different

translations right?

>> Yeah. Of it. What were the four Muhammad

Abdhim one by called Arthur Aubry?

>> Okay. Did you see one that was clearly

better when it came to translating these

specific points?

>> So many English speaking people are

benefiting from this translation and

they did that from the comfort of their

home

>> without being their faces all over

social media. have you

>> you can benefit the um and Allah will

give you reward one person might say

it's but it's not really easy to

understand it might be a bit farfetched

>> okay

>> you might not have the knowledge to know

where the line is okay how do we know if

this person is and you just made a

mistake as as opposed to a who calls to

>> and when it comes to the scholars which

books do they teach which scholars do

they praise which scholars even though

they might have fell into mistakes they

do not warn the people against what have

Alhamdulillah.

Welcome all viewers and listeners

wherever you may be to Ativyan podcast

and you guys know the rest for the

intro. Subhan Allah. We're here with a

emergency podcast. You can say we have

special we have a special visitor in

Riaduham.

How you doing?

>> Alhamdulillah. It's good to be back in

this room.

>> Alhamdulillah. It's good to have you

back.

>> How's the coffee?

>> Coffee is good like always.

>> No croissants or anything today though.

>> No. Alhamdulillah.

>> Alhamdulillah. A before we go any

further, let's explain to the people why

you're here. Let's talk about the very

special occasion. So, I'm going to let

you go ahead and jump into it.

>> Alhamdulillah. Yeah, I'm here because uh

yesterday

I defended

>> the master thesis. Alhamdulillah. One

milestone that I

>> finally managed to reach in my life.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> Allah is the most kind. when I look back

you know it's been a long journey at

times very difficult of course you can

talk about it I mean you you know what

I'm talking about basically when it

comes to the challenges but

alhamdulillah it's from the of Allahh

that we managed to you know get to the

end of it and obviously here it is this

is the end of the day what kept us away

I think

took a hit

>> you know because of this tell us about

it what your masters I know we spoke

before but go ahead back into it and

tell us what was it about how it went

the different in the book etc.dul

Alhamdulillah. So

the effect of what they call grammatical

embeddings, basically a bal linguistic

device, the effect it has on

translations of the Quran, meanings of

the Quran. So basically I chose four

different translations

>> and um I looked at first obviously you

have to establish where the is within

the ayah.

>> Mhm. But I suppose explaining what mean

is beyond the scope of this podcast.

>> It's okay.

>> Once you show where this linguistic

method is within the ayah, then you look

at the translation and and how it might

have affected the meaning.

>> And what made you come up with this

topic?

>> Ah, that's a good question. This topic

is the result of an answer to a question

that a very dear brother to me has asked

me who happens to be with us today. of

brother Mahar.

>> He traveled all the way here from Egypt

to actually attend the kasha.

>> He was here at the but also the reality

is he is the one that asked me the

question that brought this idea. He said

to me, he asked me, he said, you know,

Muhammad, Allah says in the Quran,

>> of course, I think most of the audience

aware that we say

to

>> normally comes with the

>> Mhm.

>> So he said, why is it?

So that's when I explained this is

called it's because the shows us there's

another verb embedded there that hasn't

been mentioned. M

>> another verb that is suitable with the

in this ayah it would be which means to

be kind if you look at the ending of the

ay Allah says

that shows you that there is the meaning

of within the ayah and I explained it to

him of course it was very interesting

>> and I answered this question

>> but then I said to myself wait a minute

if he had read the translation of the

Quran would he

>> have gotten that

>> have gotten this meaning

>> that's when I checked translations

nothing

>> another ayah nothing

>> another ayah nothing

>> sometimes even the meaning of the

overall ayah would change because of the

missing verb

>> so alhamdulillah that's when you know

the idea started looked into it pretty

forward to the alhamdulillah they love

the idea

>> they love

I'm I'm laughing a little bit because

he's like freaking out that you're

mentioning his name

>> no no he's he's

I mean all the students that study the

Arabic know Alhamdulillah he's he's

behind the scenes and

>> reality is when you do your and you tell

them like I thank Allah I thank my

parents I would have mentioned and I

thank my brother Mahad because he has

allowed me to have the time to work with

my masters because behind the scenes

when you got all these classes Arabic

classes durus and everything you know

you need someone to help you with the

course right I wouldn't have been able

to continue teaching everything that I

was teaching

>> if it wasn't and I wouldn't be able to

do that with my masters at the same time

if it wasn't for the support his support

obviously the rest of the team there's

other team members as well

>> who help you behind the scenes and

people they don't know this of course

all they can see is our faces but at the

end of the day anyone who's generally

speaking involved in dawa you know need

support and a lot of times they get the

support and those people even though

they might not be in the limelight and

they might not get the prayers of the

people the is with Allah at the end of

the day that's where las comes in that's

where sincerity comes in all of us are

here to support the dawa and to support

the spread of Islam.

>> Anyway, long story short, that was how

the idea started. Alhamdulillah, like I

said, the they love the idea. They

accepted it. I mean, I have to say

>> it was very enjoyable.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> The actual the part,

>> not necessarily the whole everything

else. Yeah. The academic things, but

actually reading up on the finding the

places with and what the scholars of

said about it, that was pretty Yeah,

that was very nice. Alhamdulillah.

>> Maz.

So, what was the the end result? What

were some of the takeaways? How did it

go? Like tell us about the Monakasha

itself cuz obviously there's a video

that's going around. I uploaded it in

Telegram. People have seen it.

>> Yeah, that's that's the end of it. I

mean, we did record the whole

>> and I'm sure everyone's going to asking

where can I find it? I want to see it. I

want to watch it in it'll be uploaded

where

>> on my YouTube channel. We will upload it

on the YouTube channel because we had to

like have two different cameras. So, we

have to like put it together. One on me

and one on the on the

>> Makash. But yeah, looking back, I think

I was stressing myself out more than was

required. The itself, alhamdulillah,

>> went smooth.

>> It went as smooth as it gets. As a

matter of fact, my mush said to me, this

is the shortest

>> that he took part. He said,

the whole thing was an hour long.

>> Yeah, normally about hours was an hour.

Alhamdulillah. It was very smooth.

>> And uh

>> I'm hoping for the same. I'm hoping for

something short to the point. Get out

the way.

>> Inshallah, you'll get it. So, I was I

was stressing out the I was like, "Oh,

they're going to rip you apart."

>> No, no, I seen you the day before and

I'm I was trying to tell you, relax,

take it easy.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> So, it was good. Alhamdulillah.

Obviously, the takeaways I mean the bath

itself is part of the abstract or the at

the end.

>> You mentioned the takeaways. You're

like, "Okay, what's the benefit of this

bath?" It was the takeaway.

>> Mhm.

>> For me, there were actually four or five

takeaways, but there's two key findings

that I shared in the abstract. There's

more than tobacco. Maybe we'll make this

available PDF. Maybe

>> the abstract itself or the entire thing.

Will you translate it or entire thing?

>> Maybe for those who if enough people are

interested in it, I'll make it available

in you. You should.

>> It's completely in Arabic. So, you have

to know Arabic. Of course, I don't think

I'm going to translate it.

>> Why not?

>> I don't know.

>> It might be beneficial. It's a it's

encouragement for people to learn

Arabic. This is why you need to know it.

This is why you need to know the This is

why you need to not rely on

translations, etc. Maybe maybe even pick

some place and explain how affected the

translation. I agree with that.

>> The key findings I said includes so I've

got the translation because the abstract

has to be in Arabic and English.

>> So alhamdulillah I can just read it

directly in English. Key findings

include translators generally neglect

the technique of grammatical embedding

which is often focusing on only one

meaning either the original or embedded

and rarely capturing both. Translators

employ various methods when dealing with

prepositions related to embedding which

negatively affects translations

accuracy.

>> And the study demonstrated that literal

translation of the noble Quran is

insufficient for conveying its precise

meanings with grammatical embedding

serving as clear evidence of this

limitation which was one of the great

objectives of translation. Like

>> you can't translate the Quran literally

>> word for word. Yeah.

>> Word for word. So those were the key

findings. The key recommendations were

two of them the key there there four or

five but these are the two main ones

>> the necessity for cooperation between

specialist in Quranic sciences and

exedist I need people who are special in

>> with specialists in translation English

language to produce more accurate

translations of the meanings of

>> meaning those people who have studied

and those people who studied the

translation or how to translate

they should

>> put it together come together

>> incorporate together whereby the person

who knows the meaning delivers the

meaning to the translator and the

translator kind of gets that across in

the English language cuz right now the

issue is those who are specialized in

for the most part are weak in English

>> and those who are strong in English or

jelly speaking speaking weak in

>> so you kind of need some level of

cooperation there and secondly the

identification and analysis of Quranic

passages containing rhetorical styles

that may be problematic to understand in

other words go through the whole Quran

look at all the different rhetorical

styles in the Quran. Make a whole list

of them specifically specifically those

that may make that may cause problems in

understanding of the ayah

>> and bring that all together.

>> Identify it, analyze it, gather it to

serve as a as a as an academ academic

reference for translators and a precise

standard for evaluating the quality of

translations. Mhm.

>> So, whoever wants to like translate,

they'll be like, "Okay, let me go back

to this database to look at the specific

places in the Quran that perhaps might

be problematic for me to understand

because it has very advanced rhetorical

styles." And if you want to like

evaluate the quality of a translation,

it would serve like a checklist. Okay,

let me look at this ayah.

>> What did they do with this? What did

they do?

>> Mont.

>> That was one of the key recommendations.

One task. One task. I don't want to uh

hold you up too long cuz you know we

only have you for like about a half an

hour because you have to

>> you're leaving us again

>> back to Medina.

>> Flies in two hours.

>> And how has that move been so far? Like

um for people who are aspiring possibly

to leave Riad or move generally to

Medina cuz this is happening actually

pretty frequently now. A lot of people

are hitting up saying is it possible to

live in Medina? Is there suitable

marquees? Is how's the life there etc.

How has your transition been?

I mean for me has been easy because

obviously I already have I lived here.

It's just a matter of getting a moving

company to move my stuff. But for those

who want to come from abroad, I mean

first and foremost living in Medina,

that's the place where you need to be.

>> Honestly, Medina right now is

>> is transforming as a city and also as a

community. A lot of new people are

moving to Medina.

>> It is really a very nice place to be.

Not to mention the scholars and the

durus and everything.

>> How to live in Medina? Of course, that's

a whole podcast.

how to get to Medina and how to stay

there and settle. That's uh it needs it

own.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm sure you're enjoying

less traffic.

>> Oh, absolutely. Alhamdulillah. I do not

miss traffic.

>> I thought the metro is going to make a

difference, but it didn't.

>> No, not not as much to be honest. I knew

that was going to be the case, though.

It's going to take a long time before

people even get accustomed to taking the

metro a lot, especially with families.

There's no, you know,

>> but still the metro is busy.

>> The metro's is busy, but I mean,

>> yeah,

>> like you said, you don't see much

difference.

>> Yeah. Subhan Allah.

Um, so let's going going on to something

more contemporary that's been taking

place in Saha and obviously there's so

much stuff going on. I had I had a whole

list. I don't know if you see it on the

board. I had it there for like weeks,

months ready to go over different things

to talk about, but just crossed it out

because we never got to it. However, as

of late, we've had one of the Mashiach,

the MUI Abdiz Ali

pass away. And obviously this is a

tremendous hit to the um the MUI was

well known for his his lectures and his

private lessons. I think me and you

attended some in his house before me and

you I think we went with Shik Ali as

well before. Do you remember that?

>> I didn't go with Ali.

>> I went

>> I did go at most recently when I went in

that's a story. Maybe we'll mention it

in a moment.

>> But uh the he had a sitting every

Friday.

>> Yes. Correct. could show up and read to

him and

>> correct

very accessible.

>> Yeah. And it was very beneficial. You

have other mash coming. I've seen

I've seen uh even

I've seen him previously at that

gathering reading some works of upon the

and he's given his and his mah was

beautiful.

>> Alhamdulillah. And this was in his

house. No, you know, last time I've seen

him

was actually uh was a very interesting

uh day. Very interesting day.

>> Mim came, one of the from Medina came to

RiyAB. He went to visit. He was invited

at Ahmed's house.

>> So we were with the like they would call

us to

with the

Ahmed invited.

>> Mhm. So alhamdulillah it was a nice

sitting. We sat at house we had some

some food. Alhamdulillah

said yall let's go to the muti. So then

we prayed at his mid and we entered the

sitting where the mui was there

>> gave him and

the was asking

so many questions

>> about books about certain issues and and

me I was pretty amazed

>> with of course asking these questions to

which shows you of course Abdu's vast

knowledge but also's

answers like a computer

>> subhan Allah

answering answering them with you answer

another question another question. So

you just show that subhan allah as much

as it saddens of course it saddens the

um it saddens all of us that you know

the older generations and these

mountains you know are departing and you

know and you know as time goes on you

know that's

right nobody

so that happens but when you see the

next

in line the likes of

and others

>> that that gives hope to the heart

alhamdulillah that alhamdulillah

that every generation

this knowledge will be carried from

generation to generation by the most

upright and those who are so

alhamdulillah that is a consolation for

the whole ummah

>> that Allah subhana wa ta'ala has

promised that he will protect his

religion and even if these scholars they

die Allah will put in their place others

who will continue to carry this religion

forward so that was a amazing sitting

that's the last time I saw him that was

about how many months ago was that

>> I think that was last year. I remember I

remember seeing you after we met at the

school and you were telling me about it.

>> Yeah, it was a few months before

Ramadan. Yeah.

>> So, alhamdulillah

>> and subhan Allah think going back to you

know him asking like I don't know if

you've seen but as of late like the last

few months people have been like

attacking. You haven't seen I think I

sent you one tweet and people saying

like you know not to take knowledge from

him and this whole like uh you know

>> methab

was taking knowledge from him. Exactly.

That's why that's why I'm bringing it up

cuz it's like this is the muti of Saudi

Arabia, you know, relied on from by the

other Mashiah and Fatawa with the

leaders, etc. And he's asking these

questions.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> I don't even know on what basis are they

>> uh you know they were talking about

trying to refute the whole you know

someone following a

>> it was it was a few months ago. Are they

arguing

and this

>> they're saying he pushes he's pushes the

the humbly too much

>> that's what that's what they're trying

to that's what they're trying to

say

and we follow this

>> of course not of course not

>> that that is what'sm as far as studying

ahab or following a mhab specifically

for the beginner student of knowledge

>> that's that's a different method

altogether of course there are some

scholars who focus more on Madhab and

others they might not but at the end of

the day one thing that all of our

scholars have in common which you know

I'll be a witness to on the day of

judgment and from what I've seen all of

them

all of them give great care to the and

they have the motive

>> that the takes precedence of the speech

of any individual

>> correct

>> that's the

it was again it was foolish I think I

sent it to you and I was just like I

think I might even delete it after I

sent it or something just like you know

when I'm on like I'm not even paying

attention to it.

>> So it was it was silly.

>> So afterhaz

passed away. Then a few days later

>> few weeks was it a few weeks? I thought

it was like about a few days maybe a

week. Maybe a week.

>> No, it was longer longer. Really?

>> I remember the he passed away when I was

still in Dubai. So another story

>> but I was in Dubai back in those days

sorting some issues out with my mother

>> and Fosan only got appointed like a week

ago when I got back.

>> Okay.

>> So at least at least two two

>> yeah a week week or more after Fanh was

appointed as the MUI.

>> Alhamdulillah this is something which is

extremely exciting to see you know

someone of his stature obviously getting

this type of position in Mana.

Alhamdulillah. I mean talking about

realityhausan

was probably in contention to be the

muti when the muti became muty bazim

when he died

could have been mufti

>> that is like how many decades ago

nobody need we don't need to pray I

suppose to the audience who is a a

mountain

>> what was your first lesson do you

remember studying with fosan what was

the first book you remember

>> yes I remember definitely the sheh was

teaching

That's when he just started when I

arrived he started.

>> Uhhuh. Alhamdulillah. And he was also

teaching also

teaching

>> and al

those four those four books. Then he

finished

and then he started

>> then he finished and started.

>> Mhm.

>> That's where the

>> So you had came where 20 2012

>> 2013 I

>> 2013. Yeah. Subhan Allah.

>> Was 13 I think. Yeah. 2013.

>> I think it's important to know we also

have Ysef here. You also

He's the producer of today.

>> So, uh, 2013. Yeah. So, I came in 2012.

So, I came roughly a year before you.

>> Yeah.

>> And the magister, when did you go into

magister?

>> About 5 years ago. I was just telling

Yousef told me yesterday, he said to me,

Muhammad, do you know you spent 12 years

in Saudi and I'm 36 now, which basically

a third of my life. I was like, wow.

When you put it that way, it's like I

stood up.

>> Subhan Allah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I sp as a matter of fact at

this stage I can say I spent most of my

life in Saudi.

>> Alhamdulillah.

>> Cuz I spent 10 years in Holland, 10

years in UK, two years in Syria, a year

in Somalia. I spent most of my life

here. Alhamdulillah. That was like 2013

till about now. Obviously the stopped

teaching in Corona

>> then he started teaching then for a

little while then he stopped teaching.

>> Mhm.

>> But um great.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Those were the highlights. Someone's

going to say to me, "What are your

highlights in your time in Riyad?" Has

to be

after by the way. goan

>> and then he used to go to class every uh

Sunday and Tuesday and the also used to

teach Monday of course the only thing

>> the only thing about

that I can say is

it was the same time asan's class that's

the only thing

>> you had to make that conscious choice

>> you go to on Monday you go to

that Monday he was teaching I think

Monday was no

>> it was yes

>> that book was

I couldn't leave that book.

>> I was I started with Shikhidan on those

days. So I stayed with him. Every other

day was with Shake Fan. Alhamdulillah.

>> Now Monday I had to go for

>> Yeah. When I first got here the shake

was given. So that was very nice. He's

given the Was he giving when he got

here? Okay. Yeah. Then were them were

definitely the highlight days afterwards

meet up with the brothers and relaxing

after

then the the lesson. So alhamdulillah

>> being given that position no doubt

brings and brought happiness to all of

you find people ranting on Twitter and

what have you you know uh being agitated

by that

>> really

>> what were they saying

>> just you know

you name it

>> they always get agitated you know these

kind of things because

and may Allah allow him to continue to

be a thorn in their throats

He's been very clear you know in in many

manage issues. one of his books the best

books on men that one can reads

beautiful book

>> you know beautiful book when it comes to

and there's also another book that he

has

I think so yeah

>> sure

>> and uh he also has another book

specifically question answers I think to

do with manage I can't remember the name

of it was the name of it

>> I can't remember but I know what you're

talking about

>> yeah beautiful book as well

>> we talked about your majesty we talked

about the muti I guess the only thing

left to talk about is why we've been

gone so long with the podcast what's

going to

moving forward.

>> I have to be honest, nothing beats this

in person podcast. I know we tried to do

online a few times.

>> Mhm.

>> I feel like online just the energy is

not there, you know? I don't know.

>> I miss this.

>> Yeah. To I mean, I think there's nothing

like in person. Obviously, it's like

even seeking knowledge, right? There's

nothing like you can't compare online to

being in the mic for example. I bet

they're different with that. I don't

know. I guess we'll see. I think it's

possible.

>> No,

>> just as long as we're disciplined to a

schedule.

>> Maybe. I don't know. Maybe once a month.

You want to come to Medina?

>> Maybe. I thought about that. Yeah, come

to Medina maybe once a month or you come

here. One of the two, maybe one on one

off. At any rate, I need the channel

will still continue and we'll try to do

podcast.

>> I know. Definitely. I know another

occasion I'll be here for sure.

>> If Allah gives us a life, if we're still

alive,

I'm here.

After we come here, we're doing similar

episodes.

>> May Allah make it easy.

>> In I'll be asking questions.

You you can't you can't actually quite

you've been very um soft on me. I

thought you going to do like part two of

the

>> I was going to but then I I'm looking at

the time and I'm like do I want to press

them? Do I want to press him? We can go

back. I can I can come back to that.

>> It's not just actually it's pretty much

any

rhetorical style you'll find mentioned

in the books with terminology maybe

all these things. These are all

terminologies that came after

>> these are things like you've mentioned

correctly native Arab speakers from

Quray and the Sahab of course and thear

they just understood it

>> and that's why that's a good point you

bring up because I did not when it comes

to and if you read the B you'll see the

first part of the bath is less

established that there is in this ayah

and my for that for the most part is the

books of

>> Mhm. And a lot of it is the from the

Sahabah as well on many occasions

whereby you find the Sahabi for example

Abbas or or other than him they say for

example in an ayah Allah mentions the

ayah and then the that they give is like

another verb.

>> Where do they get that from?

And then you might find a narration that

>> you want to translate it just so the

people who are listening can get a

practical example of

>> let me good let me give you the good

example I think it's the example I gave

last time as well this the one example I

gave for when I put forth the idea as

well which is

linguistically if you go to the

dictionaries you'll say to your means to

decree something

>> okay or the likes but if you go to the

books of you'll find that you find

narrations that mention

or

and you're like where did they get from?

>> Mhm.

>> What's the connection between and

>> so you don't know you're like you just

think it must

>> translate that translate that part as

well.

>> Yeah. Oh

means we decreed linguistically speaking

but you find in the books of narrations

that mention i.e. we reveal to them.

>> So you're like what's the connection

between decreeing something upon and

revealing something to them? I mean from

my perspective I always assume that

Abbas must have learned that from the

prophet

>> prophet must have told him that means or

something along those lines

>> to give of it that wasn't explicitly

said that

>> yeah to give a which is from our

perspective again

>> that we look at it and we're like means

the creed he's saying revealed there's

no connection between the two verbs

>> must be something heard from the prophet

>> because we don't see the linguistic

connection

>> but they see the linguistic connection

to

Okay normally comes with

>> but here Allah mentioned which means

there's an embedded verb which is the

meaning of the ayah is we decreed on is

and we revealed to them

>> that you will cause mischief on earth

>> okay in the book

>> this now explains why the said

>> okay so you wouldn't know that without

having background in these kind of

issues Now like I said earlier as well

it has an effect on the overall ayah.

Why? Because some of the translators

when he mentions in the book, some of

them translated it as the scripture

>> which is something said as well, which

is fine. But the issue is that if you're

going to say that means then you have to

translate as

>> because revelation is in the scripture

and decree is

>> so you kind of you can't have these two

things. You can't say we decreed on in

the Torah. Doesn't make sense. Allah

doesn't send decree. Doesn't write the

decree is not written in the Torah. It's

written in

>> right. But when you come with now you

have both meanings which means you can

say or some they mention.

So hey this is an example of how

doesn't you don't just miss a meaning

but also negatively sometimes affects

other words within the ayah as well. So

the point again answering what you've

said is can a native English speaker

understand by no he can't. That's where

translation comes in. There's another

point of contention

>> when it comes to when I was reading

writing the bath which is even the mush

said to me and some people said to me

okay if you're going to critique these

four translations why don't you give

>> your own

>> your own translation.

>> Yeah

>> I didn't I just explained the but I

didn't give my own translation. Why?

>> Uhhuh. because

from my perspective right the way I see

things there's always an eternal

struggle between when it comes to

translation between do I stick to the

literal words in front of me when I'm

translating and I try to stay as close

as possible to it or will I just focus

on getting the meaning across that's how

you find translators they differ

>> some of them their number one thing is I

just want to stick to the what's in

front of me the loft

>> I'm going to translate that

>> at most They might add something between

brackets if it goes outside the meaning.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. They might add it between

brackets. Other people who translate,

they say, "No, this is difficult to

read. Uh, too many brackets." No, I'm

just going to translate the meaning of

it without strictly sticking with the

actual words within the ayah. So now

when it comes to what do we do? Going to

have to fall into the same issue. Same

issue again. Do I put the

in brackets

>> and add the original one or do I just

add both? Now, if you add both, people

are going to say to you, "Where'd you

get this word from?"

>> Yeah.

>> You have the whole disclaimer on every

page. Yeah. Right.

>> And if you add it between brackets, it's

gonna

>> unless you put that disclaimer on the

beginning, you know, before people go

through the reading of the book, you

know, like where you see the different

this in Arabic and they say this when

I'm when I say this, I mean this when

this happened, I mean this.

>> Okay. So, it comes to my perspective,

which is I see as a solution not to take

this path or that path. For me, if I one

day translate the Quran, I'll take a

third path.

>> Hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

You just opened up a whole B that's got

my mind spinning. You're telling me

you're telling me that you critiqued it,

but you didn't give a solution of how to

fix it.

>> That was not the title of my bath.

>> So, it wasn't

>> title of my bath was what is the effect

of on the translations.

>> I explained the effect. This is the

effect.

>> Uh-huh. Okay. Got it.

>> It's not only me to give a solution

>> to give a solution maybe another bath.

Okay. How do we combat the problems that

arised from this bah?

>> How do we what how what solutions do you

come up with and then implement it and

then maybe do some like a field study

whereby you get people you get them how

do you understand this? That would be a

different so yours was to analyze it to

analyze. Okay. So there was no knock

there was no like critique.

>> No was no critique.

They implemented they did not implement

and this effect he had

>> without saying it's right or it's wrong

because end of the day itself is some

scholars will accept it in this ayah

others will not some will say the is

such and such others will say another is

not black and white

>> but you seen some that were clearly

wrong right

>> yeah some

>> they would change the meaning

>> yeah it affected other parts of the ayah

yes I've seen that

>> and I did critique that in a sense that

if it goes against what the

have meion I'll say look this person

said this none of them mentioned it

>> you did that

it's more or less like a

>> you know it's not a critique it's more

like you know I'm just pointing out what

has happened here

>> because these translators now they are

or any translators now he's now

presented with a problem you have this

verb you have this har they don't go

together what are you going to do so

every translator has to make up a choice

what am I going to do am I going to

change this har to the har that is

suitable

>> or am I just going to ignore the har or

am I going to

>> you mean you mean in the translation in

the translation

>> some they change the verb to suit the

har some they change the harf to suit

the verb

>> and based upon your your your research

then that's is acceptable as long as the

meaning doesn't change

>> no for me it's acceptable as long as

whatever they translate is in line with

the mu have mentioned

>> uhhu

>> but if they now try to solve this

problem without consulting the books of

and now they say something that's not

found in the books of now that's a

problem

>> cuz sometimes they even change the whole

structure of the sentence.

>> Did you go into any of that at all?

>> I did. Yeah.

>> I mentioned in the long story short, so

what's the third way I would have done

it

>> and that's why I didn't add that thing

because my way I wouldn't do it in any

of of these two ways. What I would have

done is

>> I would just translate the Quran literal

translation to the best of ability word

by word

>> and then have a footnote section where

you explain add what you need to add.

Yes. That way you would kind of preserve

the and you would also have the meaning

in the footnotes. That's what I would

have done.

>> You went over four different

translations, right? Yeah. Of it. What

were the four andali?

>> Okay.

>> Uh their translations international.

>> Okay.

>> Muhammad Abdalim.

>> Okay.

>> And one by

called Arthur Aubry.

>> Okay. Which did did you see one that was

clearly better when it came to

translating these specific points in the

>> I guess I can say that's one question

but also the second question was did

they stick to a a particular way

methodology or method when translating

it did you see like oh they always seem

to go this way

>> no it was a total mix

>> do you know out of the 40 ayat that I

studied you know how many of these ayat

all four translators got it right

>> all four actually got it right M

>> one out of 40.

>> Wow.

>> Zaka is one out of 40.

>> Only one out of 40. But if I would say

which translation got Talmine more often

right than others, I would say Muhammad

Khan and Ali

>> because they took from the books of

>> Mhm.

>> like they returned back to books of

international as well. They mentioned

intro they also return back to books of

as well

>> but not as much as as the other two.

>> Uhhuh.

>> As far as the other two are concerned.

Yeah. It was a mixture.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha.

>> It was a mixture.

>> So that's the So USA those two

translations when it comes to

>> generally mas is is one of the best

translations of course. So international

people they give it a lot of critique

but I think it's a really good

translation in terms of getting the

meaning across. Does he have places that

need to be fixed or nothing is perfect?

What's the what's the critique that

people push back on it? Is it a issues

or

>> I haven't read the whole

>> Yeah. just based off what you what

you've studied. I think some issues like

yeah some I wouldn't say but maybe some

>> I haven't read I would be able to

>> I've seen people like uh I think someone

came out with some kind of I don't know

critique or

>> there's nothing wrong with correcting

mistakes by the way

>> of course of course and and no book is

perfect other than the book of Allahh

>> no doubt no doubt

>> but just generally speaking from what

I've read from that introduction

>> is that they actually did go back to

some of the authentic books of

>> and uh by the way do you know who wrote

the international

>> huh No.

>> Three Muslim converts, sisters.

>> Allahbar.

>> Three female converts. Three Muslim

sisters.

>> Which which background do you know?

>> From America.

>> Oh, okay.

>> Convert. Sorry.

>> Yes. AJ then.

>> Yeah. Subhan Allah. And then they say

Islam doesn't empower women. What are

you talking about? Mallah.

They've done an amazing job.

>> That's interesting as well to go into.

Maybe we got to fact check over here.

Fact check that is

>> that doesn't mean the facteing. No, no,

not fact. No, no, no, no, no. Not fact

checking on the international. No, no,

no. What? What I meant to say is maybe

you could find more information like

were they have Arab backgrounds uh like

in their family lineage or was it like

they study Arabic then they like things

like this because I mean to make it to a

level where you're translating taps

>> then it's recognized internationally as

reverts that's very that's that's

impressive. I mean

>> I think one one of them I mean they

lived in Jeda by the way

>> and one of them used to teach the other

one.

>> That's what I'm trying to say. if I get

the background like what's happening

here.

>> I've got I've got the background in the

back as well actually cuz I had to

actually introduce their thing.

>> Sorry I read up on it.

>> There you are.

>> I just wanted to give that fun fact.

Huh?

>> I got the Wikipedia page. Huh. So, one

born in in California, one born in

Orlando and former Catholic. Wow.

Interesting. Interesting. And then

eventually moving. All three or just

that one? Okay.

>> I've got all of that.

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Give it to us. We

don't want the

>> in Arabic though.

That's her

California. She grew up in a atheist

family in California.

She was Catholic and she became Muslim

in 1986.

She was a Christian. Min Orlando.

>> Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

>> Pretty amazing.

>> Very interesting.

>> Yeah.

>> So, no Islamic background at all.

>> Yeah. My point my point to this and this

what I want the takeaway here is for our

sisters for all all our brothers of

course but especially for the sisters

which is you should also and nothing

should stop you from having your Islam

and your contributions in the spreading

of the dawa spreading of the and

benefiting your communities. Just

because you're sisters doesn't mean that

you know this wrong impression that some

people have is like oh the sisters are

at home and the guys are the ones in

that alhamdulillah it doesn't

necessarily mean you have to be on a

camera and on TV and you have to be in

front of everybody's faces look at these

three sisters

they produced a translation which is the

most famous English translation honestly

>> I believe is more widely used than

Muhammad

it's the one you find when you watch the

Quran channel

>> Makkah thea

>> ah they use that

>> they use international Okay.

>> You see, so it it's very widely used. So

many English speaking people are

benefiting from this translation and

they did that from the comfort of their

home

>> without being their faces all over

social media and what have you.

>> You can benefit the um and Allah will

give you reward. And of course we can go

back to our history

and how much she has contributed to the

spread of of the knowledge of Islam and

other and other

I don't want to push it but you kind of

you kind of opened the bad when you said

hey I thought you was going to press me

a little harder on the thesis

>> and now I'm like I got a million

questions but it is 5:00 and I know you

got to get ready to go to the airport.

So, uh I don't want to I don't want to

push it too long,

>> but what what made you choose the uh the

ayat? Cuz you didn't obviously for the

the listeners, you didn't go through the

entire Quran, right?

>> No,

>> you went through selective ayat.

>> Yeah.

>> What made you choose those ayat

specifically over the other ones?

>> There are books on

>> there's one book that has over 300

places in the Quran where there is

>> hold. Did you did you did you explain

that that principle in to Yeah. Did you

explain it?

>> I suppose. Yeah.

>> No, no. Explain explain it because I

don't think they we have people who

don't understand Arabic and

>> okay what's what's basically is when you

have in the Quran a verb a verb or it

could even be as well by the way

>> the way that verb interacts with other

words in the sentence I'm trying to

explain the way course

>> for someone who doesn't have background

right

>> the way this word interacts with other

words in the sentence is different or it

changes

>> Mhm. Which brings a question which is

why for example does this verb why is it

followed by this a different like for

example you would say

Muhammad traveled to what if I sayham

it's a different meaning

>> than okay

>> if the changes or the way the verb is

used changes in the Quran question is

why here the scholars they mention

sometimes it's because of i.e a

different is used so that to put it as

simple as possible instead of mentioning

both verbs Allah mentions only one verb

and he leaves behind the Quran he leaves

behind a clue that shows you what the

verb that has been omitted is so it's

basically they call

>> is a is is a way of being concise

>> instead of mentioning both verbs just

mention one and leave a clue behind for

the other one

>> tell you so what made you choose these

ayat did you how many ayat did you go

over by the way

>> I went through some of the books that

talk about tmin there's one specific

book I relied aied a lot on which had

over 300 I had basically three criteria

generally speaking criteria number one

is that the is actually something pretty

clear

>> cuz like I said issue sometimes one

person might say it's but it's not

really easy to understand it might be a

bit far-fetched

>> okay

>> those are put aside

>> second criteria I have to find cuz once

I find an eye and I'm like I'm going to

study this one I had to go back to the

books of and make sure that the mu

actually have statements that aid

>> if I find that the mu have not talked

about it put that ayah aside as well

>> third one is okay did it actually have

an effect on the translation if you had

no effect on the translation whatsoever

right then there's no point in studying

that of course right so that's basically

how I ended up with a with a short list

uh it's a pretty u interesting process

that I had

>> and you went over did you went over

three how many ayat

>> uh no the book itself covered over 300

ayat

>> no the one in your in your thesis how

many

>> oh 40

>> 40

>> initially I was thinking of doing 50 but

then I just turn 40 afterwards.

>> The verb itself using a preposition that

it normally doesn't use

>> like a different preposition altogether

like why like we said

>> it's like

why not there's a reason for that.

>> Yeah. I mean to even notice this in the

Quran you have to kind of have some

Yeah. You have to have some strength in

the Arabic language to notice why did

they use this preposition over this

preposition. What does this mean here?

>> Yeah. You have to it sticks out to you.

>> Yeah. stick out

>> and that's why the this normally you'll

find it being discussed in the books

that focus or those that focus on

>> bal

>> which brings me by the way to a big

disclaimer

this is important

>> you'll read this if you do actually one

of the reasons why I'm hesitant in

sharing it with everyone

>> yeah sure you're going to read this b

and you're going to find you're going to

find

>> you're going to find people who have

done who have books of which our

scholars say you shouldn't be reading

those books of

>> Mhm.

>> right? So some might be like oh look why

are you quoting someone who was

who called to

>> Mhm.

>> this is academic work. Of course,

>> no one mentioned in this bath like when

you do a bath, when you quote someone

from a book of what have you, it is not

a recommendation or some kind of tisk

whereby you're like, "Oh, this is a

great scholar who should be taken from."

>> That is a you know a very ignorant way

of looking at things. But that that has

to be people have to be told. when it

comes to academic work you quote people

who are specialist in that field even

though you might disagree with them in

other issues of what have you so of

course I have to avoid

studying to do with whereby might embed

his misguidances so of course I don't do

that

>> but specifically speaking

>> he is one of the first ones and first

and foremost ones to actually propagate

the whole of you understand so this is a

issue you will not find within

for example a mention of as a

terminology. People need to know this

didn't mention as a terminology. This

terminology came after

>> but might give a whereby he mentions

both verbs.

>> But people like who are like kind of

like the the the first and foremost ones

who actually made as a as a science.

They had a lot of influence in that. Not

that he he's the only one but he had

some influence in that course people

like him you'll find talking about so

when you're doing a bath on have to

return back to the

>> anyone who's going to anyone who's going

to go through and read your thesis or

have interest in this topic this

mightach and we we already know that

academic studies you have to mention you

still have to you have to when you

translate it to give the disclaimer

>> now when you translate it you give a

if you if that's something you're going

to keep in the translation

>> but any academic study we know Like you

have to mention certain things people

who are specialists in a particular area

especially like you find it all the time

in

>> hey you can't do a bath on bal not

mention

>> exactly it's like you're skipping over

something that's elephant in the room

>> exactly it's like wait a minute even

your mush will say to you wait a minute

yeah what what are you doing like where

are the people who are like specialized

in this field how you come you're not

quoting them like

>> so you have to if you're going to go

into that field you have to but it's not

a rubber stamp like oh anyone mentioned

my back he's a safi scholar or someone

who should be taken from. So this is an

important thing people should know.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. Because again you have people

refuting you for for teaching books if

that book has one or two mistakes.

>> Mhm.

>> Our scholars

they teach books they have issues

sometimes

>> like

heal

has some issues when it comes to and

what have you. Mhm.

>> But that's his job as a scholar, as a

mut as an imam to go through the book

and to give where there something is

wrong. It doesn't mean that if you want

to teach a book, that book has to be

perfect beginning till end. It's more

about the teacher, not the book.

>> And just a disclaimer, you're talking

about mistakes in the book versus

somebody who's calling to obviously

clear misguidance. Then we don't

obviously those books we stay away from

>> of course. So that's another important

thing as well which is you have certain

scholars who are known for their and

calling to their and you will not find a

scholar

on you're not going to find that.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

>> But if you find them for example

teaching the books of imi

and other than them even though they had

some mistakes is because these scholars

they stood for the sunnah they aided the

sunnah they held on to the sunnah. Even

though they might have had a few

mistakes here and there, they are still

considered to be from. So there's a big

difference between a m that calls to his

yes and someone from who made a mistake

or to in big difference.

>> And where is the line? Some people like

yeah but some people say I'll tell you

where the line is. The line is very

simple. Just stick to the scholars.

>> See what the scholars do. Do what they

do. Say what they say and stick with

them. Alhamdulillah. Right? You might

not have the knowledge to know where the

line is. Okay. How do we know if this

person is and you just made a mistake as

as opposed to who calls to

>> when it comes to the scholars? Which

books do they teach? Which scholars do

they praise? Which scholars even though

they might have fell into mistakes, they

do not, you know, warn the people

against what have you. Regarding

your thesis, did you come across

obviously when you were doing your

reading, you're gathering the

information, you're looking at the the

books of Balaga to see who mentioned

this this particular issue or not issue

but a particular co how would you say

study did you see that there was more in

some soras versus others

>> 100%.

for example doesn't mention at all

>> only mentioned it like once or twice

>> okay

>> you will not find it

>> even though I said you won't find it

because this terminology was not used at

this time

>> but is

>> but he even he does not bother with but

as is not known for going deep into

issues he more is more about bring the

and the

who from the earlier scholars earlier

When would you say it started? Because

it's 200 300. When did So you say it

started like shortly after him? Oh, or

>> who are the earliest ones I've heard

mentioning to me?

>> Yes, that's my question.

>> That's kind of like where it starts.

>> Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.

>> Okay. So, and those who took from him

like and and the likes,

>> they're the ones who will be like or

>> these are the ones that came after

they're the ones who will mention.

Gotcha.

>> Right. So as a terminology it started

roughly around that time

>> roughly around that time that's when

this terminology kind of started being

used in the books of right does that

mean you will not find any there's a

bath actually on in the of there's a

bath on it

>> okay

>> but not that he says there's but because

he mentions both verbs

>> okay

>> like this verb and he gives that verb

but he doesn't name it but it's in

essence the same thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. There wasn't a

specific terminology for it at that

time. Now if I tell you the two scholars

of the one scholar mah if he does talk

about it doesn't talk about it in every

>> ayah because he doesn't have a full

>> but he does talk about it brings so much

benefit is

by the way he was a big proponent of

>> he's like he said this is the way of

the ones that

they say that this has another embedded

they don't just say that this can take

the place of the he said no no no see

and the big guys

>> they do that they domin

>> and then when he talks about

>> it's important I explain who

unbelievable in order for people to

fully digest that quote explain who who

is like im when it comes to you go back

to

>> but the point is when talks about it for

example

in the

>> you know

>> because we say you don't say

[Music]

>> so why did Allah say flee onto Allah why

not flee from Allah

>> hhu Okay. So to flee is normally from

something. But Allah saidall because we

flee from Allah to Allah.

>> Subhan Allah.

He brought the hadith

>> that there's no fleeing.

Nothing to flee from except that you

free to Allah. So he's like

flee from Allah to Allah. Flee from

Allahh's anger and that which angers him

i.e. the sins to that.

>> Yeah. Provisions to that which brings

the uh pleasure of Allah and his from

his

>> unbelievable

as well.

>> Why did Allah say

normal is not

>> why is it not

mentions? Because his Muhammad

sallallahu alaihi wasallam when he

speaks he doesn't just he doesn't speak

with desire

but also he doesn't speak from desire

>> i.e The is not desire and the is not

desire

as in heallah doesn't speak with desire

>> neither does he emanate or his speech

does not emanate or start with uh any

desire as in he's not affected by you

know he's not affected by by his desire

so talked about that as well

>> another scholar contemporary scholar

that also talks a lot about

>> guess which muf or scholar contemporary

scholar contemporary scholar.

>> Yeah. He talks about it a lot, his

student.

>> Uhhuh.

>> Yes.

>> Allah

>> as well. He he's also big on. He

mentioned it a lot in his

and he mentions and he explains.

Beautiful.

>> Yeah, it makes sense.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Is also strong in

alhamdulillah.

>> I think that's a good place to to stop

podcast. Hopefully we'll be having some

more in the future.

May Allah accept it. With that being

said,