Atheist vs Christian vs Spiritual Thinker: Is Not Believing In God Causing More Harm Than Good?!

Nine in 10 young people in the UK

believe that their life is lacking

purpose and a lot of people are turning

back to religion. There is something

going on.

This is about the most important thing

that anyone could ever find out about

their life and God has made us for a

purpose and the purpose flows from that

meaning.

I kind of reject that cuz this is a

perfect example of a solution being

provided without explaining exactly why

it provides a solution and that's what

people are doing in religious

traditions. I hard disagree. For me,

finding meaning and purpose is like a

very practical thing.

And that's what I want to talk about

today.

We are joined by an atheist, Christian,

and spiritual thinker

to find an answer to the purpose crisis

millions are facing today.

One of the reasons that I'm a Christian

is because it's the best explanation for

the way things are.

But if Christianity were true, we would

not expect the kind of suffering that is

present in the world.

So, I'm very curious. What if I died

from cancer at 1 years old?

So, someone violated God's commands and

that had an impact on the world. So

children get cancer because a few

million years ago someone ate a fruit.

If you want religion to provide

existential comfort for people who are

suffering, you have to do more in the

face of children dying of cancer than

some reference to mythical human beings.

But if your worldview does not have a

way of making sense or moral intuitions

about suffering, it's not an adequate

worldview.

What I would say a science and

spirituality can really add is it's

effective in terms of reducing

suicidality, improving resilience,

giving them a reason to wake up in the

morning. And we'll get into that. And

Alex, if someone's listening now and

they feel lost in their life, is there

any advice that you could give them?

So, as an atheist, I'm offering a

psychological explanation. So, I would

recommend that they you're spot on,

Alex. So, the first thing to understand

is it is an internal feeling. And we

found in our study that if you your

sense of purpose increases by 68%.

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world to me. Let's get on with the show.

Oleg Greg

Alex.

The reason I wanted to speak to all

three of you today is to discuss meaning

and purpose. And there's some stats that

I wanted to share that kind of frame the

discussion. Three in five young

Americans believe that their life lacks

purpose. Nine in 10 young people in the

UK believe that their life is lacking

purpose. And when I look across other

stats as it relates to things like

mental health, 59% of Brits said they

lived a meaningful life compared to just

25% who said they did not. In an October

21 survey, 34% of men in the UK said

life had no meaning compared to 18% of

women. And 50% of the same group who

said that their lives lack purpose and

meaning said that their poor mental

health was linked to not knowing what to

do with their life.

And to give some further stats which I

found really interesting around the rise

of religiosity in the UK a belief in God

amongst 18 to 24 year olds has risen

from 18% in 2021 to 37% in 2025

according to Yuggov. And in the UK

monthly church attendance has risen from

4% up to 15% in 2025.

there is something going on

and that's what I want to talk about

today. But before we do that, I'd love

to understand the perspective that all

of you bring to this conversation. So if

I start with yourself, Alec,

you know, it's it's interesting you

mentioned a lot about mental health. I'm

a psychiatrist. So for me, finding

meaning and purpose is like a very

practical thing. So literally, a patient

will come into my office. They'll say,

"I have no reason to live. There's

there's no nothing worth it in life. I

am suicidal. I want to kill myself." So

I have a job as a clinician to like fix

that problem in a very like practical

way. So I've got, you know, a couple of

weeks, hopefully 15, 20 weeks to teach

them how to find purpose.

And so usually the way that I approach

that is there's there's a lot of sort of

evidence-based scientific approaches to

finding purpose. I think those tend to

work really well. But I'm I'm sure as my

philosopher colleagues will will point

out and tear me apart, you know, science

has a lot of shortcomings. And so then

what I I tend to find works incredibly

well is adding a certain degree of

spiritual practice to that. And usually

when we put those two things together,

things work. And the the real proof

point for me was when I started

streaming, 10,000 people reached out to

me in one month asking, hey, like do you

have room in your private practice? And

so I started to think about, okay, if

this is a methodology, then can it be

taught? So I started this coaching

program and what we found in our pilot

study of 1,453

people is that if you stick with the

program for about 20 weeks, your sense

of purpose increases by 68%. I'd love to

hear from my colleagues, but I I think

you know if someone asks me what is the

meaning of life, I I don't know, but if

someone says I have no meaning, can you

help me with that? The answer is

absolutely yes. And I want to attempt to

just define

two terms that you said there. One is

purpose. And it doesn't have to be a

perfect definition, but roughly what you

mean by that. And then you said you

introduced spiritual practice. What did

you mean by that?

So what I think about is purpose is

using something called factor analysis.

So if you ask someone, do you have

direction in life?

Do you have purpose in life? Is there

meaning in life? All three of those

things cluster together to some.

Even being in control correlates with

that. So if you are in control of your

life, your sense of purpose will

increase. So there are a lot of these

like words that we use, but all of these

words tie back to some internal sense of

what is happening in your life. So

that's how I would uh describe purpose.

In terms of spiritual practices, what my

experience is is that if you look at

human beings who say they have purpose

and human beings who don't have purpose,

their lived experiences in life are

different. So when I work with survivors

of trauma, they have certain experiences

like literally we can scientifically

sort of measure this. You have a

particular experience which it destroys

your sense of meaning in the world. I

had a patient once who was attacked in a

bathroom for about 5 minutes. And in

five minutes, this person had a sense of

what they were doing in life, was

dating, was doing well in college, had

loving parents. And in 5 minutes, their

compass for navigating the world was

shattered.

So if we sort of think about experience

can lead to a loss of purpose,

experience can also lead to a gain in

purpose. Now the spiritual tradition

that I come from is all about particular

practices that evoke

certain subjective experiences and as

people have those experiences

their sense of purpose increases and

this is where I think there's a major

shortcoming of science. So science can

tell you what you should do but it

doesn't create experiences in and of

itself. Right? So we can scientifically

understand that the highest risk factor

for pornography addiction is having no

meaning in life. But even if we know

that that doesn't help us like fix the

problem. Then there's always a question

of how like so we can discover something

with science but then there's a question

of how do we actually like move from

point A to point B. And that's where I

find spiritual practice is incredibly

helpful.

Would you classify yourself as religious

or or

Yes, I think so.

Greg,

yep.

what is the perspective you bring to

this conversation and what's the the

lived experience the academia that um

lends itself to that perspective?

Yeah, there's a whole bunch of that

fitting in and I relate to a lot what

you're saying uh Alo about people's

challenges. Now what's interesting to me

about this whole discussion since I'm a

Christian uh and I understand the world

from a theistic perspective because I

think it's the best explanation for the

way things are

just to give a definition to that um

theistic what does that mean

a personal god

a god

there is a personal god who is involved

with the world he made the world and he

still maintains activity as opposed to

deistic which just wound up the clock

and let it go okay so my view is god is

still involved D in fact so involved

that he actually came to earth in the

person of Jesus of Nazareth to create a

rescue plan. Now what's interesting to

me about this broader question we can

get into more details too is that it's

not if there is a God who made the world

for a purpose with meaning people can

participate in that meaning and purpose

even if they don't know God they're not

they won't be experiencing what they

were made for which is to be in

friendship with him with the plan that

he's made for their flourishing but they

still can flourish in some measure in so

far as they touch on these objective

features but in so far as we are able

able even without belief in God to kind

of get in that groove of the things that

God made us for the purposes that he

intends in light of being made like him

in some way in his image. There's going

to be a measure of satisfaction. But

what they'll be missing is is the

ultimate and that is that friendship

with God and being restored in that.

Alex.

Yes sir.

Same question for you about your what

you bring to this uh conversation in

terms of your perspective, your

experience and maybe some of your sort

of personal journey. Well, for for my

own part, I was quite swept up in the

new atheism movement, uh, which was a

mid2000s publishing phenomenon with the

likes of the Dawkins and the Hitchens of

the world, saying that religion is evil

and terrible. And I think promising an

alternative, a kind of secular humanist

utopia, that if you'll only throw off

these oppressive religious systems, you

will regain your spiritual autonomy and

be able to assert yourself and the

intrinsic meaning that you have within

yourself.

People tried that and it didn't seem to

work. And I think that's because the new

atheist movement was quite

philosophically shallow. It didn't

seriously engage with the existential

component of religious belief and why it

exists in the first place. And I think

that is why it exists. I think humans

are in a strange predicament due to the

mystery of consciousness.

We find ourselves possibly uniquely

amongst other animals in a position of

being mortal, being physically embodied,

being in a world, but also knowing those

things. It's one thing to experience the

world. It's one thing to be it's another

thing to be aware that you're

experiencing it. Uh Josh Rasmusen once

said, "There's a difference between

noticing a tree and noticing that you've

noticed a tree." We have this sort of

second order abstraction that we can do.

So, we know that death is coming, for

example, and death makes a mockery of

everything that we do. Seems to just

obliterate any sense of purpose or

meaning because anything that we're

building will ultimately, as far as

we're concerned, be gone. And that may

well be unique to human beings. And so

I'm not the first to suggest that the

principal motivating factor behind

meaning infused activities that humans

do is an engagement in death denial or

some kind of immortality project. People

literally

for fear of

as a result of the knowledge that this

will come to an end engage in what we

might call immortality projects. They

engage in things which will outlast

themselves which give them a sense of

escaping this death. The most obvious

example is in religious traditions which

literally promise immortality for your

own soul. But if you look just

practically at where people subjectively

report finding meaning. They find it in

their children. They might find it in

their job, but they're unlikely to find

it in their job if they're doing

something they don't really care about.

They'll find it in their job. Maybe

they're a maybe they're like a

barristister and they find a lot of

meaning in bringing justice into the

world because they're participating in a

system which they believe will outlast

them and is bigger than them. So when

people talk about meaning, we talk about

transcendence, you know, something being

above and beyond their own sort of

material uh situation and I think

religion is the is is the the archetypal

example of this and I think it's why it

evolves in the first place. There is

this idea that we are living in a

meaning crisis that has cropped up maybe

in the past 100 years or so or maybe in

the la last few hundred years or so as a

response to the enlightenment and the

decline of religion. I think that's far

too easy. I think that's way too easy. I

think that if there is such thing as a

meaning crisis, it is literally the

human condition and the reason why these

projects were invented in the first

place. I think literally speaking what

people are doing in religious traditions

is realizing the finitude of their

existence and therefore trying to

commune with something.

Can I add a

less finite? Of course,

we have this hunger and I I have no

reason to believe that any naturalistic

explanation can explain the

consciousness's

hunger for meaning and significant

because that's all propositional. It's

non molecules in motion.

What's naturalistic mean? Naturalistic

just means nature and that's all there

is basically. So you have uh molecules

in motion largely governed by natural

law. There is no outside transcendent

anything. There's no immaterial anything

certainly not an immaterial god that has

started the process and sustains the

process and gives life meaning. There

either is meaning

objectively or not. Okay? If not then

it's up to us. For example, a moment ago

you said that if there is a creator God

who brings us into existence, then you

are designed and you are given purpose

by God. And I think we need to

investigate this a bit further.

Mhm.

Because for example, a quite sort of

boring and overdone debate at the moment

is the extent to which we are engaged in

the production of potentially

artificially conscious agents with

artificial intelligence technologies.

And there's all this discussion about

whether or not these things can be

conscious like you know whatever. Let's

just suppose for a moment that they

were. Let's suppose that I created an

artificially intelligent machine and I

gave it a purpose and that purpose was

to produce paper clips. And because of

the development of artificial

intelligence technology, it became

conscious in a recognizable sense. It

had an interior sense of self. It sort

of had say feelings or emotions about

the world. But it is just an AI robot

whose entire purpose in life is to make

paper clips.

Now I could say that because that AI was

designed by a creator with a purpose

that was explicitly given to it that

that life is meaningful. But I think it

would seem to most people that a life

whose meaning consists in creating paper

clips

is not sufficient. It's not enough to

address what people really want. It's

not just some kind of purpose. It's not

just even some kind of purpose which is

given to you by an authoritative

creative source. It's something which is

further than that. Yeah. But if I can

just relate this to the God question,

the problem that arises is that you have

to answer the question of why God

infuses life with the meaning that he

gives it.

Mhm. It's either something which he has

sort of arbitrarily plucked up and and

chosen to create in which case we have

this problem of arbitrariness or no or

in fact there is some reason why God had

to give us a particular kind of meaning

that's endemic

to the human condition that he had no

choice but for that meaning that more

important kind of meaning to be given to

human life but if he was beholden to

that if he had to give us a particular

kind of meaning it seems like there's a

standard of meaning which exists outside

of God so I'm not sure in other words

the mechanism by which being created by

someone who says this is your purpose

would be fulfilling in the way that

people want it to be. The reason the

paperclip illustration doesn't match is

because it seems to me that you're

subtly taking the thing that's conscious

that makes paper clips and comparing it

to a human being. And for human beings

who seem to have a different purpose, I

would argue be consigned to make paper

clips, well that's dehumanizing to them.

But if you have, just to follow your

illustration, if you have a creator that

makes something for a reason that the

creator has in mind, then it's

fulfilling its purpose perfectly. You

know, for a human being, that's not

going to be satisfying making paper

clips. And a lot of people who are

making paper clips are not satisfied

with it. Okay?

I don't think it's arbitrary if God is

making something for a purpose. If God

decides that he wants to make creatures

to be in friendship with him because

this reflects his loving character and

that purpose is to be in friendship with

him, I don't see how that is somehow

negligible or arbitrary at all. I guess

you could have said that God could have

done otherwise, but his love and desire

for communion is seem to be an adequate

explanation for that.

This is fascinating. Um so my first

question is what's the point of this

conversation?

Yeah. So I think that the ultimate

answer that we're looking for is it

appears that the numbers around purpose

and meaning are fluctuating at this

moment in time. A lot of people are

turning back to religion as as Alex is

we were just chatting about a second

ago. And I guess there's two questions

which is one understanding why that's

happening why there's this fluctuation

why we're seeing a mental health crisis

around purpose and meaning. And the

second is to try and figure out if

there's a truth one can arrive at

if there's an objective truth that

exists.

So for y'all, I'm curious when y'all

show up here, like what is the purpose

for y'all showing up?

It's literally trying to discover

like it's the stated purpose, right?

It's literally just artificially given

purpose by being designed in a

particular way. We're going to get

together and we're going to have a

conversation and see if we can figure

out this this meaning stuff, right? And

by the way, like we're not going to

solve that problem. I think it's worth

pointing out that like these

conversations have to be exploratory and

subjective. If anybody thinks that the

four of us sat at this table are going

to solve the meaning crisis and give

people a five-step guide finding meaning

in their life and that will be the sort

of case closed, then they're delusional.

I I don't know if I I agree that we

can't find an answer, but we'll talk

about

Well, this is what I wanted to speak to.

It it

um obviously we're talking about this

broader issue of meaning and purpose.

All right. And as I mentioned earlier,

there either is an objective one or it's

only subjective. Okay? If it is an

objective one, this is about the most

important thing that anyone could ever

find out about their life if they were

created for a reason. In my view, the

reason I'm here is because I'm convinced

that that's the case and I'm willing to

give reasons why. Okay. But I don't

think I I'm sympathetic to the concern

that you can't sit around a table and in

two or three hours solve the problem for

any individual because people going

through the process of trying to figure

these things out. It takes a long time

as they put the pieces together. But I

think there's a lot of people in the

world that think they have put it

together and they've come to conclusions

about ultimate meaning and purpose and

they don't come to my own conclusions

but many have. So what I would hate to

do is to leave people with the feeling

like we can all search and the glory is

in the search but if you think you found

the answer then you haven't. Of course

this to me is a neistic enterprise then

I think it's possible to come to

conclusions.

Yes

I think so too to be clear but I think

what I'm what I'm trying to say is this

will be something that one will

experience for themselves and will

discover for themselves in their own

life. It's not going to be something

that you know there's that old um was it

Lynchi the the the sort of the Buddhist

coan that says if you meet the Buddha

kill him. The idea being that you know

if you think that the kind of

enlightenment which is necessary to

spiritual fulfillment can be found

through some kind of guru um you're

missing the mark. It's something that

you need to do for yourself.

But isn't that statement itself meant to

be a truth about spirituality that you

can actually count on?

Can I jump in?

I just want to make sure I understand

y'all's point. So, so you're saying that

the search for purpose first of all is

never going to go away like is a human

condition, right? Yes. Like like so as

humanity humanity will never find its

purpose.

I can tell you why if you like.

No, no, I I don't even know why yet.

I think I think individuals can, but

humanity

that's always Yeah, I I'm just making

sure I understand. Right. So, an

individual can find their purpose, but

as humanity, it's never going to be

solved. And then you said something

about purpose being tied to

opposing to death in some way. So

transcending death that human beings

basically look for purpose because death

is inevitable and if we can find purpose

then we can give our life meaning. But

if death if we die and I don't leave

something behind. Can you talk a little

bit about that? This is essentially a

version of Ernest Becker's denial of

death hypothesis which famously suggests

that the motivation for a great deal of

human behavior is at least human

behavior outside of immediate sensory

concerns like eating and stuff like that

anything that humans engage in on a

societal level on an abstract level is

ultimately motivated by an apprehension

of death. I think that's probably too

simple but it's definitely a

contributing factor. I I think that for

example, put it this way, right? Here's

an example that comes from I think his

name is Sheffller and he has this

interesting thought experiment. Suppose

I don't know, maybe you're engaged in in

writing a book. Suppose you discovered,

and this probably won't be the case for

you because you believe in an afterlife,

but suppose that you're an atheist for a

moment. Suppose it were the case that

you discovered that after you die, a

meteor is going to come and wipe out all

life on Earth. Everybody's going to die

almost instantly after you do, but

you'll be dead. So, you will live your

entire life as it was anyway. And

suppose the rest of the world doesn't

even know this is going to happen, but

you're told this is going to be the

case. Would that motivate you to write

your book more or less? Most people say

that it would seem a bit pointless now.

I What's the point now in writing this

book? What's the point in in having

children if they're going to die 30 days

after I'm after I'm gone? What what's

the point in in doing any of these

things? What will they still do? They'll

still do the sensory stuff. They'll

still eat. They'll still have sex.

They'll still sleep. This kind of stuff.

But the the typically meaning uh laden

activities of life they would suddenly

be demotivated to do. And it's an

interesting thought experiment to give

us some insight as to the fact that well

maybe this means that at least in part

the motivation for these actions in the

first place is that they will extend

beyond our death.

I agree with so much of what I'll say

and I also like hard disagree with some

of the fundamentals. So let's say you

have this example of like I'm write a

book and then the world is going to end

30 days later and and so you say because

a lot of what you're talking about is

like what people say, right? So you'll

say like okay so like people would say

that this is a waste of time and I'm not

going to do it if the world ends in 30

days.

And you're also saying people

is a is an everlasting thing or

struggling with purpose. Right? You're

saying both of these things.

So here's my question to you. If you

tell someone, you know, you're writing

this book, let's say you you you write

it and then you die because we'll

simplify the example and then 30 days

later the world ends. Let's take two

people. One who says, I'm a write it

anyway

and one who says there's no point.

Which one of those two people do you

think has a greater sense of purpose?

Probably the former.

Absolutely. So, this is the key thing.

purpose is absolutely because I love

that you're asking about mechanisms and

I think maybe that's what I can provide.

I I think that's that's actually the

answer, right? So, it's not that people

believe and I think you're right that

the reason that this is a perennial

problem is because most people do not

live a life where they understand how

purpose works.

Mhm.

And and what I think is really

fascinating about sort of like this

scientific clinical approach. Like if

you ask me can I help people find

meaning and purpose I don't know but if

you ask me can I help a person the

answer is absolutely and we have like

particular scientific things and this is

where it's it's really counterintuitive

so a big part of like finding purpose is

doing particular things and if you do

those things the likelihood that you

will increase your sense of purpose in

life which is another thing that's very

counterintuitive to people purpose is

not binary it's quantified viable. It's

like a scale. So, if I were to ask the

three of y'all, right? Maybe let's like

let's do this not thought experiment,

but this practical experiment. Do you

know your purpose in life? Like, how

confident are you that you're doing what

you're supposed to be doing in life?

How confident am I about the God part or

that I'm doing the things that are

appropriate?

That how confident are you that you're

doing what God wants you to do?

Well, in that general sense, extremely

confident or else I wouldn't be doing

it.

Perfect. Right. So, Stephen, what about

you, bro? Five out of 10.

I knew it. Okay. Right. So, Alex,

I don't want to be difficult, but I kind

of reject the grammar of the question.

Awesome. Reject away, bro.

I think it's what a logician would call

an exponable statement. Something which

needs to be broken down. You asked, "Do

I know my own purpose?" That assumes

that there is a purpose to know. It It's

a bit like the comparison I would give

is if I asked you the question, the

classic example in logic is is uh is the

king of France bold? Yes or no? I can

rephrase my question if you have

problems with my question.

So,

do you have a lived experience of

something called purpose?

Oh, well, look, I think purpose is

having some kind of reason to act or be.

Yeah. And I certainly subjectively am

motivated to do things. I think

everybody is. Otherwise, you literally

wouldn't be able to do anything. Um, but

it's a bit foggy to me what

psychologically speaking, on a personal

level, that fundamental motivation

actually is. Wouldn't purpose be more

the the goal rather than the reason to

act? What you're trying to accomplish?

It's a semantic thing, but that's why it

depends what you mean by the word.

I'm I'm with you. I'm I'm with you. So

So, so and I I don't know what I mean

with the word purpose, which is part of

this challenge, but Okay. So So like I'm

just wondering so like when you So a lot

of people are motivated to act. Everyone

is motivated to act every day, right? I

get out of bed, I need to take a dump.

Like but my guess

is that if we were to administer

a

scientifically validated instrument that

measures your subjective sense of

purpose direction in life

that that would be north of five out of

10.

Okay.

Do you think that's fair or is is that

something that you don't

maybe? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what

like do you do you when you wake up do

you feel like you're know you know what

you want to do and what's going on and

you're like doing good work like I'm

asking about the subjective

not on a grand sense. I'm quite

agnostic. I mean I'm sort of

I'm not talking about it. Okay. Maybe

I I really don't know what perfect.

Okay. So so so not on a grand sense but

on some other sense.

Sure. Okay. Great.

So I think that this is like this is I

think this is beautiful because I think

what we have here is like not on a grand

sense. So I think on a grand sense

you're there, right? But you're

absolutely motivated by particular

things. So I think this is the first

thing about purpose.

Can I a clarification real quickly?

Yeah. On a grand sense, yes, but there

are distinctions that you were referring

to a few moments ago, right? There are a

lot of things that are dissatisfying my

life. But in terms of being on the right

course, that's part of what life is.

Being on the right course, lots of crazy

stuff that's happening in between.

Cool. So like like the first thing that

I've kind of noticed in my work is that

I don't know whether a grander purpose

exists or not. I I think that's a lovely

discussion that I want to continue to

have with you, but I I I'm sort of

here's where I'm sort of coming from in

this discussion.

Stephen started this out with some

really scary statistics that we're

seeing, right? There's a mental health

crisis. I think a lot of what we're

seeing is is while it may be perennial,

I think it's like seems more acute right

now. Maybe that's because of the atheist

materialism. whatever. I'm I'm not quite

sure, but this is a problem. So, just

sharing where I'm coming from. My hope

is that someone who is watching this

will have moved forward some vague

percentage points. I'm shooting for

about 20% in their personal quest for

purpose.

Mhm.

And I think a big part of what I'm going

to try to contribute here today is my

understanding of like how to do that.

That this is a quantifiable thing that

we can sort of see at this table. people

are sort of like at different places

and so the first thing that I kind of

want to point out is I don't know

whether there's purpose or not but as a

human condition

there is something that each of us feel

or experience that gives us an answer

right so you're like at 10 but what that

means is that something is going on in

your mind something is going on in your

heart something is going on in your body

where you wake up and you feel like you

have purpose

Steven wakes up and he's like at a five

out of 10. So, he's getting some signals

in that area. Some signals not in that

area. You have some signals in that

direction, too. You know why you're

showing up at this podcast. You you've

got a book that you're working on.

Awesome. Can't wait to read it.

And but on a grander sense, you're like,

I don't know about this like objective

stuff or whatever. So, this is sort of

like this quantifiable thing.

And you

um I'm going to let y'all guess.

Where would you put me at?

I don't like to psychologize people.

It's okay if you don't like to.

Will you?

I mean, I I just met you. I don't I

don't know. I have no idea what what

sense of meaning you you have in your

life.

Okay.

I mean, for me, I I'm just motivated to

try and find out.

So, I think I think the audience can

guess too.

Yeah. I would say you're pretty high.

That's why you're here. That's why

you're articulating your ideas.

Probably Probably closer to 10 than

five.

Mhm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So, so it's like it's okay if you

don't want to do that because I'm

guessing that there are certain things

in your intellect that tell you. So, do

you have a subjective instinct?

No, I just don't know you that well. I I

I mean, I don't know. Okay.

And also, it depends what you mean,

right? Because you'll say that you have

a if you say that you're a 10 like you

you have this this there's this you you

use the phrase earlier sense a sense of

meaning in life and because you're

talking about this from an empirical

standpoint of whether people report

having a sense of meaning whereas I

think that Greg is probably talking

about literally speaking whether there

is actually in fact a real meaning

whether or not people sense it or not.

You could say that you have a 10 out of

10 and Greg could say, "Well, that's

it's great that you feel that way, but

it's misguided because the purpose that

you have identified in your life is the

wrong one." And so to me, the important

question is not so much whether you

subjectively report feeling like you

have purpose in life, but whether that

purpose is grounded in something real

and true. Yeah. So, I think that your

answer right now is the reason why you

think some of these questions are

unanswerable.

Mhm. So I think if you adopt that frame

you'll never know but

I don't think they're unanswerable.

Okay let let me let me just finish.

Okay. So my first uh experience of this

right is that first of all there is a

subjective barometer like how do we know

whether we have purpose maybe we listen

to other people but there is some sort

of internal sense of this and this is

where the science becomes really

important because if you look at people

who have like a history of trauma or

something what you tend to find is that

there are certain like neurobiological

things that can happen to you that will

literally affect the parts of your brain

that are able to detect purpose.

So this is sort of like a subjective

experience and I think the way that and

I I love your emphasis on mechanism and

I think this is what in my opinion

science and spirituality can really add

is they add the how right they they add

like why is it that one person has

purpose and another person doesn't have

purpose. So first thing is that in my

experience in the way that I operate,

I'm not saying it's correct. It's just

it's effective in terms of helping

people move the needle on reducing

suicidality, uh improving resilience,

giving them a reason to wake up in the

morning. Like it tends to work. Um and

it's not just me. It's that there's a

bunch of, you know, methodologies that

we have in psychotherapy and stuff like

that that accomplish these kinds of

things that there's some internal sense

of purpose. Now what I think uh

surprises a lot of people is that there

are two ways that you increase that

sense of purpose. The first is a bucket

of things that are kind of counter

counterintuitive and this is where we

also have to understand that purpose

correlates with certain other things in

life. So if I feel like I am in control

of my life then my sense of purpose will

increase. Those two things are

correlated. It's not clear whether it's

one thing that manifests in two way ways

or it's probably two discreet things

because there's some subtlety there. But

just as a very simple example, if you

take someone who feels out of control in

life and you help them get control of

their life, and there's a really great

example of this, which is something

called passive challenges versus active

challenges. So, there's a fascinating

research on anxiety that shows that if

you're someone in life whose life is

happening to you, like you wake up one

day and then like your your boss wants

you to come in for work and you have to

pay rent at the end of the month and

like you're you're logging on to Tinder

and people aren't responding to you.

Life is controlling the direction that

you move. And people feel overwhelmed by

this and they want freedom. They want

control. What they end up doing is they

they they wish that they didn't have

these things. So they run away from

these problems. So passive challenges

are challenges that life imposes upon

you that you didn't sign up for.

Then there's something really

fascinating which is your sense of

control in life does not correlate just

with the passive challenges. It

correlates with the ratio of passive

challenges to active challenges. Active

challenges are things that you choose to

do that are difficult. So this is really

fascinating. But if if you're getting

bodied by life in three different

directions, the solution to that is not

run away from those problems. It's

actually to wake up and start to push

yourself in a particular direction. I

want to do this instead. If you want to

learn how to like read uh, you know,

learn philosophy, you know, start

studying philosophical texts, you know,

like is you start to take on more, which

is very counterintuitive because when

most people feel feel overwhelmed, they

don't feel like they can do more. The

exact solution is to take on more active

challenges. then you have some sense of

control in life. And once your ratio of

active challenges to passive challenges

is more evened out, this does something

really cool. It gives you a sense that

I'm no longer out of control.

Mhm.

Once you feel like you're no longer out

of control, this is the really cool

thing. Then your capacity to deal with

the stuff that life throws at you

actually improves. Mhm.

So there's this this is just one example

of like one scientific neurobiological

principle that has some psychology

associated with where you can do

particular things

to give yourself

a sense of direction in life.

Mh.

Now some of the stuff around worship and

spiritual practice that can do it too.

Um but I think that usually what I tend

to see is that you know if someone is

lost in life you can sort of answer it

by these big questions. you can sort of

think about this sort of transcendental

purpose which I'm I'm happy to talk

about. But I think there's a lot of like

little stuff that you can do.

Yeah.

And as you implement these things, the

sense of purpose in your life, your

internal lived experience of feeling out

of out of control will change.

Let let me offer a few thoughts if I

could. One, I want to speak to something

that you've said, Alex, um that I just

want to offer a caution about. When we

talk about motivation, the motivation

for something, we sometimes confuse that

with justification. So someone might say

to me as an atheist, for example, well,

you're a Christian because you were born

in America. If you were born in Saudi

Arabia, you wouldn't be a Christian.

You'd be a Muslim. Of course, that's

irrelevant to the question of whether

Islam or Christianity or some other

religion is true. It doesn't speak to

that. It speaks to psychology. Okay? And

the fact is, if the atheist was born in

Saudi Arabia, he wouldn't be an atheist

either. Likely the key question is what

motivates people for example to think

about purpose death maybe a fear of

death that might be a motivation. The

question is whether the place they land

in answering the question has any

objective truth to it or not. It could

be that there is a god and that there is

an afterlife. And facing death does give

comfort to that uh I should say when

facing death you have comfort because

there is a god and there's something

that you're going to it's closer

communion with him. Okay. Just because

you're motivated by death doesn't mean

that your belief about the afterlife is

somehow an error.

I just wanted just to add something in

here. So, I I think part of the reason

I've also convened um you guys to have

this conversation today is because I've

got several people in my life that are I

can I can literally lay out the

personas, but I've got one particular

friend who's 35 between 35 and 40 years

old, living in Dubai, living in a a

glass box um freelancer. So he wakes up

in the morning, his bed is there. He

then works there, then goes back to bed.

He's single, no kids in his life at the

moment, he said to me that he can't get

out of bed anymore. He feels stuck. And

then about 6 months after, out of the

blue, it turns out, without telling any

of us, and we're his best friends, he's

flown to America. He's been baptized.

He's a Christian. Suddenly, his life has

purpose and meaning again. He's a

completely different person. And this

individual never ever he would be the

last person that you'd think would be

religious. got another friend, female,

just over 30 years old, doesn't have

kids, freelance, works at home. Um, when

I asked her what her meaning and purpose

in life, she said to me she wants to get

to having 200 plants, plants she can

water. She names all of them. She then

told me a week after she's in therapy

because she feels lost and stuck in

life. And so much of the central point

why I've been motivated to have this

conversation is it appears to me and I

haven't nailed this hypothesis yet that

freedom, independence, be your own boss,

the decline in people having children,

the glamorization of um as you said at

the very beginning like you know do it

yourself, do it your way is failing

people in some way

and that actually the push for

independence was in some way some kind

of light. I actually also went through

the same new atheist

baptism that you went through and I read

all those books at 18 years old and two

years I was I was debating dog walkers

on the street about God. I was so such a

staunch atheist but I now find myself in

a position where

I'm almost back to being curious again

because it feels like independence

wasn't the answer.

Just wanted to be curious. I think yeah

I mean I think people need tasks. I

think that purpose is intimately tied up

with the idea of of task to fulfill.

It's why people tend to find meaning in

projects which are not completed yet. In

fact, Pascal writes quite compellingly

about this when he writes about boredom

and he imagines a a gambler, someone who

who enjoys gambling and says, "Well, why

is this person gambling?" Because

they're doing this thing with the with

the chance of winning some money. Okay,

so why don't you just give them the

money? just take the gambler and give

him all the money that he could possibly

receive without playing the game and he

won't be very fulfilled even though he's

getting ostensibly what he was trying to

get. No, no, that wouldn't be fulfilling

because he enjoys the the gambling.

Okay, says Pascal. Then let him play the

game, but make it such that he'll never

actually win the money, but he he gets

to keep playing the game and he's not

going to be very fulfilled by that

either. That's also going to be

completely pointless. And so Pascal

noticed that what you kind of need to

avoid boredom and I suppose to to imbue

your life with with purpose at least in

this analogy is

some kind of task to fulfill

that you haven't fulfilled yet that you

don't know if you're going to fulfill

that you believe will bring you

fulfillment when you get it but you

haven't got it yet. It's why I think

religion does it really well because

it's the definition of something which

you don't have now which you can strive

for which when you get you believe will

be uh will be fulfilling you.

So so so I I I love these examples

because actually we know exactly what's

going on in that thought experiment.

Right? So now there have been there's so

many advances in neuroscience that we

understand why people gamble. Right? So,

we understand that giving someone money

will satisfy a gambler in one of two

cases. And I've seen this. I've worked

with people who are professional poker

players. Some people there what we

describe motivation is actually like a

dozen different things going on in your

brain. So, if you were a professional

poker player and poker and I've

literally worked with professional poker

players who had no meaning in life, it's

so funny. I'm thinking about a

particular person and then you know

achieved a certain financial goal.

That's why they play poker. So if your

motivation is that I'm playing poker

because I'm I have a skill that I'm

using to get money.

If that is your internal motivation,

that is going to come from certain

circuits in your brain. It's going to

come from places like your frontal lobe.

Now, as Pascal pointed out, if you give

the average person who gamles money,

what are they going to do with it?

They're going to gamble more, right? So

that means that the their motivation is

coming from something more closer to the

nucleus encumbent, a random

reinforcement schedule. Maybe they're

trying to suppress amydala emotions. So

we actually can like look at that

example and we can understand why each

of those things happens. And then the

most beautiful thing is that there is

absolutely

a scenario where someone will can gamble

and never win and they can absolutely

have purpose. So this is where I know

that sounds insane but if you look at

some of these things from the Zen

tradition, right? So these are practices

that have no purpose to act with no

meaning whatsoever. And the beautiful

thing about that is as you explore that

sort of angle and there's sort of a

neuroscience

perspective to this as well is that if

you really think about it you're saying

okay so people invest in this purpose or

in this purpose-seeking thing like

religion with the idea that I'll find

payoff at the end. Is that what you were

saying earlier?

I'm saying something a bit different. I

what I was going to go on to say is to

is to point out that and bear in mind

this comes from a part of of Pascal's

pon which is titled man without god. You

know he goes on to discuss man with god.

Um but I look at the development of the

human species and our particular

proclivities. Lewis makes this argument

from desire that you mentioned. Why do

we have a desire for food? Well because

there is actually food to have. The

evolutionary biologist says the reason

that we develop hunger is because those

who didn't died. And if you don't have

some sense of hunger, you're not going

to seek out food and you will die. And

so it just so happens that those who

develop this feeling of hunger will be

more likely to survive and therefore

hunger is a part of our human condition.

Well, such is meaning. If you have two

isolated communities, one of whom says,

"I just don't care. Whatever, man. No

interest in having children, no

interested in building societies, legal

systems, constitutions, whatever the

case, moral systems, none of they just

don't care. nihilists, they're not even

gonna have children. That society will

die out. Another society which just so

happens to perhaps delusion like in a in

an exercise of delusion just develop

this inexplicable feeling.

And of course this evolves over time and

starts with essentially the kind of

random mutation of ideas that works on

the genetic level in evolution. They

call it memetics when it's ideas rather

than genes. the society which just ends

up developing this idea that actually I

can't quite explain why but I I just

have this drive towards building a

society and engaging in legal justice

and moral systems and kind of they're

just more likely to survive. So we end

up with this with this sense this this

drive within us that we can't explain

and yet we have. So imagine for the

majority of our evolutionary history

what it was like every single day you

woke up and you did not know if you were

going to have a roof over your head. you

didn't know if you were going to have

food to eat. You had to go out and you

had to hunt it. You had to go and find

it. Every single day the game reset and

so I would imagine that those lives were

probably quite meaningful at least in

the sense that I don't think there would

have been many existential crisises on a

dayto-day because the purpose was quite

clear. And like Pascal's gambler, they

had a task that they think will fulfill

them when they get it and they don't

know whether it's going to be fulfilled.

So what's happened today?

Well, now we've been given the money

without the game. We've got houses,

we've got food, we can go next door and

get some water, get some food from all

over the all over the planet, you know,

like that's that's it that you've got

the money without the game. So, what do

people do in the modern situation when

they find that their life is a bit

meaningless? They start intentionally

doing things which are difficult. They

start doing ice baths. They start

exercising. They start going into a room

just to physically exert themselves in

order to sort of build muscle and

whatnot, like on purpose, for its own

sake. Why? Because today we've got the

money without the game. So people are

going out and seeking the game without

the money. They're going and doing the

ice baths and the gym. Whereas the truly

meaningful life is one in which you are

playing the game in the service of

getting the goal. That is why I think

that you know literally just seeking out

those things. I think that there's a

reason why they have a psychological

impact. It's not as simple as just like

oh well if you go to the gym you know it

it releases endorphins and and makes you

feel good. It's like let's think a bit

deeper than that. what's actually going

on. People are seeking out the game

without without the money. Crucially,

I've talked about this as as a

deathdenying pursuit, right? The idea

that the things that you engage in here,

at least in terms of grand projects like

religion and society, are even if just

subconsciously an exercise in the denial

of death. What would that mean? It means

that if you encounter other communities,

if you encounter other traditions who

just just by their mere existence

threatens the truth of your claims,

those traditions subconsciously

represent death. They represent

nihilism. So what happens in a society

that develops the kind of

telecommunication technology whereby

every single day you open your phone and

you are addicted to a process of

scrolling through every seven seconds a

new person with new ideas with different

beliefs from all over the world. Do you

think that might have something to do

with the meaning crisis that we find

ourselves in? We're told that what's

happened is that people stop believing

in God and now they're all depressed and

upset and nihilistic. That's far too

simple. You don't think it might have

something to do with the fundamentally

revolutionary

change to our society that has been

brought about specifically by

telecommunication by the ability to

oftenimes unintentionally and

non-consensually be confronted with

traditions and people from halfway

across the world that just remind you

every single day. Zing zing zing every

single day that your truth is not the

only truth. that the transcendence that

you've placed your trust in is

completely subjective and personal and

that someone over there

believes something totally different and

seems to be living just the same kind of

happy life.

That I think is why people are

struggling so much. It's not just

because they're atheists. I

I have a lot to say about this. I'll try

to keep it compact. By the way, just we

are aware of all kinds of different

options for us spiritually. Yes. um that

doesn't necessarily suggest that none of

the options are actually accurate or

that are okay. So I'm making an

implication there and this is what

creates kind of the angst because all we

have is our own personal subjective

point of view.

I think that's why people experience

that. Now of course as a matter of truth

you could say for example yourself you

could say yes I'm constantly confronted

by different religious traditions but I

believe that Christianity is true. I

think it has the best evidence and

this is this is even true in even in the

scientific realm. all kinds of different

ideas but no one wants to say just

because there are so many different

ideas to explain things that nobody can

be correct

which is why what I'm saying is is

insensitive to the truth or falsity of

any of the traditions what I'm saying is

okay that's good because I want to go to

that next

as an explanation as for the the

psychological

phenomenon the the literal feeling that

people have because likewise you would

say that there is a meaning crisis maybe

you would say that lots of people the

statistics we just heard you would say

lots of people you know don't feel

meaning in their life and you'd want to

offer an explanation for why that's the

case. You think their lives are

meaningful, right? You think that all of

those people who say, "My life has no

meaning." They're wrong. Their lives

actually do have meaning.

Is that what you think?

Well, this was the subjective response.

They feel like they don't have meaning,

but they were made for a purpose. If

they're not in in touch with that

meaning and purpose, then they're going

to feel bereft.

They believe there really is a purpose

for their life, but subjectively they

haven't either found it or they don't

feel it. What I'm doing is I'm offering

a psychological explanation for why they

don't feel it, which is completely

insensitive to whether or not there's a

truth of the

I'm so glad you put it that way. Uh

because this is exactly my point. I

don't want anybody to miss it. We're

really offering two different pictures

of reality here. Okay. People have to

ask themselves two questions. I think

one is they reflect on their own

personal awareness

of the need for meaning and

significance. Does it seem to them that

this is just a psychological thing that

people can satisfy in all kinds of

different ways depending on the

individual or does it seem to them I'm

asking these questions because I suspect

there is a truth about life that might

be discovered okay that's the first

question and that and I think most

people's awareness of this is that

there's something transcendent something

bigger than them okay and any kind of

naturalistic explanation is not going to

ultimately satisfy that the other thing

is is there any reason to believe

that there is a transcendent reality

that God exists that souls exist that

that there is an objective morality that

guides our life and if we're living

virtuously that's going to be satisfying

even if we don't believe in God or not

those are the two things at stake here

you know and now this description the

story of reality I just described that I

hold to it it seems to me completely

coherent maybe not true but it certainly

is coherent that if there There's a God

who made us for himself and places

eternity in our hearts that we're going

to yearn for that and made the way for

us to live and then we're going to find

good ways to live as opposed to

unsatisfying ways to live. That makes

sense. Doesn't make any sense to me at

all to say that my molecules are moving

in a certain way to create in my

conscious mind which Darwinism cannot

offer an explanation for. It hasn't.

That's why Daniel Dennett said

consciousness is an illusion. You know,

because he couldn't do anything with it.

Thomas Nagel wrote his book Mind the

Cosmos. are familiar with this. I'm sure

you know why the neodyarwinian

materialistic view of the world is

almost certainly false. And he's an

atheist for goodness sake because he

can't explain consciousness not in a

Darwinian way. So how is it that this

mystery of consciousness which contains

propositional thoughts, ideas, and

purposes?

If consciousness can't be explained that

Darwinian way, how can some

characterization of molecules in motion

accomplish that same end? That's my

concern. This is why I'm not convinced

about at all about the naturalist one

and this one seems so much more

plausible.

What you're raising is the is the

problem of consciousness which is I

think a new question but an important

one. I wanted to point out earlier that

that when I gave an explanation as to

why people feel a lack of meaning and

you said that has no bearing on truth. I

think that's

you admitted that too at the end there.

I appreciate that.

I don't admit it. I I assert it. Of

course, that's the case. In

affirmed you weren't making the case

in the same way that if somebody says

that like if you're a Christian and you

say the reason everyone's so depressed

is because society has become atheistic,

somebody could say, well, yeah, I mean

that might be the case, but that doesn't

mean atheism is false. It might be that

it is true and just depressing. Right?

Of course, like the the question if

we're discussing

there are alternate explanations. If you

want to know why somebody feels a

particular way psychologically, you can

offer an explanation which has

absolutely nothing to do with the truth

or falsity of a worldview. You can then

separately discuss the truth or falsity

of a worldview which you've then gone on

to do with specific reference to the

problem of consciousness.

It thinks it has absolutely nothing or

it can be experienced apart from the

issue of worldview.

I'm saying that if you if you're

literally just trying I mean if the

question I'm asked is why do people

perceive a lack of meaning in their

life? That's just a question about their

psychological constitution. That's just

that's literally a question about why

they feel a particular way.

So if a person was a total nealist,

didn't believe in anything uh was

important and then they were depressed

and even suicidal, would you say there

wasn't a link between that worldview and

their feelings?

Yes, there is. But what I'm saying is

that the link between that worldview and

their feeling has nothing to do with the

truth of the world. You see what I'm

saying? Like it doesn't. Nihilism can be

true. Nihilism can be false. Nihilism

can be an in unintelligible concept. It

can still be the case that that person's

conviction is making them depressed.

Right? In the same way that somebody

could be be a Christian and that makes

them really happy. That doesn't mean

Christianity is true. Someone can become

a Christian and become really depressed.

That doesn't mean that Christianity is

false. What I'm trying to point out is

it is just trivially true. So So I I

still want to try to understand a little

bit about what you're saying.

Okay.

Because I don't fully follow.

Fine. Um, and I think that the reason

I'm I feel way more confident in what

you're saying is because

Christ is pulling at your

100%. Yeah.

So, so I think Christ, we both talk to

Christ, so like we're good on that. Like

I I know where he's coming from. So,

couple of things that I'm

I talk to Christ, too, you know.

Awesome. Does he talk back?

He does not talk back. And

yeah, that's that's tricky. We can talk

about how how to get you there.

One person said just read the gospels

aloud.

So So

I've done that a few times. So, a couple

of things that I'm I'm curious about.

One is so I'm noticing that you're I'm

trying to understand where so I I love

the way you're sallying forth

to grapple with this problem of purpose.

You do a beautiful job of sort of

talking about like okay, what's the

truth

and then there's this psychological

perspective

and I I want to just try to understand

this. So, are you of the mind that from

a psychological perspective, you can

wake up one day and feel like you have

purpose, but that doesn't necessarily

talk about purpose transcendentally.

Capital P.

I'm saying that doesn't talk about the

truth of your belief.

Okay?

So, for example, you could you could you

could believe that your children are

about to die

and that suddenly your life feels really

meaningless and and really purposeless.

It could be completely false. You could

have been like misled. Someone could lie

to you. But like what I'm saying is is

the psychological explanation for why

you feel a particular way has nothing to

do with the truth of the thing that you

believe that's making you feel that way.

Gotcha. Okay. So what I'm curious about

is when you are exploring purpose

are you exploring it from are you trying

to find the answer at the top like what

is the truth of purpose or are you

focused on the subjective

experience of purpose?

Depends on the context. If you're asking

I mean we were talking literally about a

psychological explanation for why people

feel a particular way you know is it due

to a decline in religion that kind of

stuff in that case it's subjective it's

individuals yeah

yeah so so

do you think that the top one can be

answered

what the top one is in like they're

being

they're being purpose right so that's

not subjective at all

so what does that mean there their being

purpose because for me that looks like

some kind of reason to act or to be that

is not contingent on some other fact.

Just to be clear, to make it clear for

the listener, I think you hear what I'm

saying. But like suppose you woke up and

you were a Christian and that brought

you meaning. What I'm saying is that

subjective sense of meaning that you get

from Christianity has no bearing on the

truth or falsity of Christianity.

Gotcha. Right.

Right. So, so what I'm curious about is

in your opinion, and if you don't have

one, that's totally fine. um you know do

you think that so sure there's a

subjective experience which doesn't

speak to truth right it's just a

subjective experience do you think that

there is some way to grapple with that

truth

well what the truth of Christianity or

something

the truth the truth of of purpose

we're shifting here right because what

I'm saying is

let let me shift then I don't want to do

that so then I'm gonna go back

this is why I maybe I'm not

understanding your question what all I

am saying yeah is that if you feel if

you feel a subjective sense of purpose

from proposition P

like the fact that you feel purpose from

that does not have any

P and then you just ask but but is there

a way to discuss whether P is true

well yeah like so if proposition P is

Christianity then yeah we can talk about

the historical argument for the

resurrection of Jesus or something

gotcha gotcha okay

I'm not I'm not trying to reach into

some yeah

mystical capital P purpose realm

gotcha so right so and I I think that's

so helpful thank you so

Okay. Okay. So,

that's really helpful for me because

then you I want to go back to something

you said earlier about, you know, cell

phones and we're scrolling on cell

phones and things like that and we have

this like like this worldview and then

if we encounter a worldview that is

different from ours that could put us

into some form of crisis or difficulty

and we're getting bombarded by all of

these things.

And so what that means is that the

individual when they wake up in the

morning and they scroll through their

phone, right? We're not talking about

whether the proposition P is true or

not. Their subjective experiences like I

have no meaning and I have no purpose in

life,

right? And and so you posited one

mechanism which I think is a completely

valid mechanism is a philosophical

mechanism, but we have a lot of

neuroscience mechanisms that support

what you're saying. So just and this is

where I I I think that we kind of I'm

going to sort of restate that what my

experience of this stuff has been

because I'm I'm not a philosopher is I I

don't really know too well how to

contend with whether Proposition P is

true or not. That's why I was asking and

and it's not that you weren't being

clear, it's that I'm just ignorant of

how philosophy works.

Um and so that's why I was kind of

asking like you know can you do that? M

so that's where also where like I'm kind

of coming from is that we have this

crisis that has high suicidality high

addiction rates people left the church

in big ways and then we're sort of left

with like okay how do we navigate this

and that's where I think if we look at a

lot of this the influences

on society we see that there's profound

neurological influences and what I sort

of found is when I was working

especially with like patients with

trauma that there is a set of things

that is happening in the world around

them that induce certain changes to

their how they experience the world. So

a really good example of this is if you

want to find your purpose in life, you

should reduce your level of alexathyia.

So alexathyia is the inability to tell

what you you emotionally feeling.

And if we look at the influence of

things like cell phones, what they're

doing is they're suppressing the parts

of our brain that have that experience

negative emotions. Sometimes they

provoke negative emotions, sometimes

they suppress negative emotions. And so

if you start to

be able to feel more, right? So the this

is literally shutting down the parts of

our brain that h that give us an

internal sense of what we feel. And so

as you shut down your ability to detect

what you are feeling on the inside, that

correlates with your not having a

detection of purpose on the inside. So I

think that you know this is you you

asked the question why is this

happening? I think we're disabling and I

was working with people with trauma and

sort of sort of figured out a sequence

of things that is based on the

literature that involves things like

reducing your alexathyia. Another big

part is managing your ego. So I think

this relationship with God thing is a

really really really great example of

like if you ask what is the mechanism of

a relationship with God. So we as human

beings tend to be like I'm here. But

then as you relate to other people

around you, your sense of identity

changes. And when you relate to

something that is transcendent, I know

that that's a scary word. And I don't

know exactly what that word means, but

as you relate to something that is

really big up here, that has noticeable

effects on your default mode network,

your sense of self. And as your default

mode network no longer becomes

hyperactive, the more hyperactive your

default mode network is, the more likely

I think you are to be like nihilistic,

to have a pessimistic worldview, as we

start to make those changes, then people

start to feel a sense of purpose. They

start to feel a sense of connection. And

then the last kind of really interesting

data which we can go into is

psychedelics which is really really

fascinating because this allows us to

test subjective experience and the

effect of subject subjective experience

on a person.

Is this opportunity?

Please.

I'm just concerned that you might have

overstated something maybe reflecting

back something you thought I was saying

and I was making the case about the

genetic fallacy and just because a

person has a motivation to believe

something doesn't necessarily mean that

that thing is true or have a subjective

experience. I think it goes a little

further than that though. Uh if you went

to the doctor and you weren't feeling

well and the doctor gave you a pill and

then you went home and you took the pill

then you felt better. I think it would

be appropriate for you to say well that

pill taking that pill going to that

doctor had something to do with my

experience that I'm having right now.

Oh yeah. I think this is where I think

it might have in intent unintentionally

been an overstatement on your part

because I think

just like your friend Stephen who in

Dubai all of a sudden became a Christian

and everything changed. Okay.

Um,

well, that you you I guess you could say

the change of life isn't maybe knocked

down, dragged down proof that what he

believes now is actually true. Big P,

big T

that like Jesus rose from the dead.

It seems to be, pardon me,

that like Jesus rose from the dead. It's

got no bearing on whether that's true or

not.

Well, I'm speaking of a different thing

right now. I'm thinking about the

experience now with God that he's

having.

If you if he's having this changed life,

this this is evidential. This is this

lends credibility to the belief system

that he's now adopted because it created

this particular significant change in

his life. It may not be proof and that

word is really

an oozy goosey word how to pin down but

nevertheless it still seems to be

evidential. It is it it speaks to the

legitimacy and accuracy and truthfulness

of the belief system that produced this

changed life. That's what I'm saying.

It's only evidence that belief in that

thing makes someone feel more fulfilled.

That's the only thing it's evidence of.

Okay. So, this is where we differ. Just

like

I'm with him on this one.

Okay. Just because uh just because a

certain you're saying just because they

believe it, this makes them better. It

doesn't mean that the belief is actually

sound.

Greg, I've got a good way of coming at

this then. So,

this is where we differ. That's right.

But if I had five friends and they all

picked five different religions and they

all felt the same thing that my friend

did in Dubai where they all felt better

for it. Does is that evidential that all

five religions are true?

Well, see, I don't actually think it

works that way. You can speculate and

say and offer that illustration. Um, but

I don't think it actually works that

way. I I think that universally the

experience of Christians is very very

uh quantifiable

in terms of transformed lives and this

is one of the reasons that these

transformed lives lend credibility to

the belief system itself.

So in that scenario where one of my

friends turns to Islam, one of my

friends turns to Christianity etc etc.

The only experience that's evidential of

truth is the Christians. Well, I think

you have to look at every individual

thing. All right? And um

here's my suspicion, and I haven't

quantified this across the board. All

right? Different people have different

experiences by engaging different

religious uh belief, traditions,

whatever. But in so far as anybody's

life is significantly altered by that

thing, this to me is evidence that

something is going on here than merely

the belief. If it's just the belief,

you're back to uh to marks again and the

opiate of the people, you know, that

would be Carl, not Groucho, although

that's not anybody knows who those two

people are anymore.

It sounds as though,

you know, if if I if I lied to somebody

and a cruel prank and I told them that

say they're really struggling with money

and they're really really suffering for

it and they feel and they have these

psychological effects of feeling that

life is meaningless, they want to kill

themselves, whatever it is, because they

just they just cannot keep living. And I

tell them, "Good news. Um, you've won

the lottery. You've won a million

pounds." And suddenly the weight is

lifted. The joy is brought. Of course,

money isn't sufficient for bringing

about meaning in life. But this person,

but I've lied to them. Like the the fact

that they feel this immense sense of

meaning from a belief that they've

adopted has it bears absolutely no

evidence. No, in that case whether it's

true that they won a million pounds. I'm

just saying that to divorce all results

from belief systems is a mistake. There

can be a there can be a connection

there. Just because you can mislead

somebody by telling them a lie and they

can experience something emotionally

doesn't mean that the other person who's

experiencing something transcendent in

their emotions. And by the way, for

Christians, it's not just a high because

Christianity is not a continuous high.

Even people who are suffering terribly

as Christians in persecution read Fox's

books of martyrs, book of martyrs, still

have this strong sense of value,

purpose, and security. Even so, I'm just

saying there's an evidential

relationship between those. It's not

enough to just simply dismiss it because

you can tell a lie and someone could

have the same kind of feeling.

I'm even happy to say that like I don't

know if this is true, but suppose it

were just the case that only

Christianity brought about this positive

effect. Suppose we just discovered that

everybody who claimed to feel meaning,

it would just didn't compare.

That's not what I'm saying.

But suppose that were the case. Even if

there was something really special about

Christianity that gave some evidential

credence to something specific about

Christianity that's true about

Christianity that it particularly

infuses life with meaning, I still think

it just has nothing to do with the truth

of Christianity as a worldview.

I mean, Christianity hinges on the

historical fact of the resurrection of

Jesus. Right. Correct. And so the best

way of explaining this is to say that if

if your friend from Dubai starts going

to church and they start feeling really

like meaning like start experiencing a

lot of meaning in their life that has

absolutely no evidential bearing on

whether Jesus rose from the dead. And if

Christianity as a proposition

essentially is the resurrection of Jesus

and this feeling that your friend had

has no evidential bearing on the

resurrection of Jesus then the feeling

that your friend had had no evidential

bearing on Christianity. It turns out

that Christianity has multiple factors

of of uh support and evidence. Crucial

obviously the crux one might say is the

resurrection of Christ, the death and

resurrection because of the theological

significance of that is in the whole

system. All right. But there are lots of

other things too that have bearing and

actually I I think there are people who

have become who have become Christians

without having a robust understanding

even of the resurrection or that. So um

it even though theologically that is the

crux I agree um it doesn't mean that for

subjectively every person who enters in

a relationship with Christ has all of

that in place.

I'm really interested to understand for

my friend in Dubai

if he came to you and he was your friend

in Dubai

and he said my life is lacking meaning

I can't get out of bed anymore.

What would you prescribe him? What would

you recommend? What would you suggest as

he's your friend?

It's hard to know without knowing that

friend, but if it seemed to me like

going to church or reading the gospels

might provide that for him, then I'd

probably recommend that he did that. But

I think that literally the subjective

feeling of meaning is is usually tied up

in the identification of something that

transcends your individual self.

Okay. Why would you? And I think at any

whatever is the most plausible course of

action for that person to engage in

something like that would be what I

would recommend for them. If they're

maybe that maybe they're not

particularly interested in religion, I'd

recommend that they read some philosophy

of mind and try to understand the nature

of consciousness. And they might start I

might recommend depending on who they

are that they take a psychedelic drug

and try to experience something which

cannot be put into words because a lot

of the time when you experience

something like an ego death and you

might realize that the the individuated

self is an illusion and that these

cliches that keep cropping up when

someone does psychedelics and I I

actually think that the problem of

consciousness is absolutely crucial to

this. uh if if I mean I think the most

plausible account of consciousness

implies that consciousness is something

which is sort of received by the

biological organism rather than produced

by it. Because I agree with you that you

can't just put a bunch of molecules

together and get consciousness. That

doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But

it's interesting that some of our best

scientific evidence is is suggesting the

fact not that the brain produces

consciousness, but that the brain

inhibits and focuses and organizes

consciousness. it does not produce it.

Yeah. So I I I I love your answer. So

you you were saying, you know, depending

on the person, you can do different

things. You can read philosophy.

I recommend them to do that. In other

words, you know, look at that depending

on who they are.

You know, read the gospels. So I I think

what's what's interesting is that when

you you know, when when Steven gives the

concrete example of like if my friend

comes to you who's had this religious

awakening or prior to religious

awakening, what would you recommend to

them? And I think what's really

interesting is basically all of the

answers that you said I think

can map on to mechanism and I just love

to talk about that for a second. So the

first thing is you know you asked me at

the beginning am I religious? I I think

here's my understanding of and we were

talking a little bit about

you know people can have the subjective

feeling of religion. What is the

relationship to to that thing being

true? So here's what I've sort of

observed. I don't know if y'all have

ever been to like a really great

cathedral.

Oh yeah. But like you know uh if you go

to a great cathedral, you don't have to

be Christian to be awinsspired by what

you see.

Sure.

So when I look at the project of

religion which is a little bit different

from spirituality I I one of the things

that I've observed is that religion is a

series of structures to evoke a personal

experience. So the whole point of

reading the gospels is fingers crossed

and we'll get to how to optimize that.

Fingers crossed if you read the gospels

enough or you go to church enough or you

pray enough, if you keep on talking to

Christ, one day he'll start talking

back. But I think the really interesting

thing is if you struggle with purpose,

you can read the gospels. If you go into

religion and I think what's changed now

is that we have so much science to

understand the mechanism through which

religious practices evoke subjective

experience. So I can go to church until

for my whole life. But until I have that

relationship with God, that is a

subjective experience that is evoked by

the sort of structure of the religious

practice.

So that is absolutely one thing you can

do. I think the cool thing is that the

problem with reading the gospels as as I

can clearly see that you've done and and

you know I I see the striving for

religion in you like you're like you you

want to have that, right? like you want

to know like what are these people

actually kind of talking about? I could

be wrong there, but I I see this

beautiful striving that you're like

you're trying really hard to figure this

stuff out which is just awesome to see.

I think though that if we we kind of

look at it and you mentioned kind of

psychedelics as well and I think

psychedelics is is really interesting

because

we know that so if you take someone who

has treatment refractory depression or

someone who has PTSD and you give them a

psychedelic, the psychedelic is not

healing. What is healing is specifically

whether they have an ego death

experience.

So if I see colors and things like that,

that doesn't solve things. But the ego

death experience is what correlates with

clinical improvement. So psychedelics

are a good way to evoke

um a subjective experience, right? So we

we know that there are a couple of

pieces and when I worked with people so

one of the things that we know is that

when you experience trauma it shatters

your meaning of life.

Yes.

And so what so working a lot with people

with trauma and this was something that

I kind of laid out uh in terms of like

making a guide about it. But what I

realized is that there's a set of things

that you can do relatively sequentially

to get your meaning back. And so I think

the cool thing about like you know

reading the gospels or psychedelics or

things like that is those each have some

fingers crossed change in you. But the

cool thing is like if you start with

something called alexathyia. So as long

as you are like using a bunch of

substances um as long as you are not

able to detect what is going on inside

you that is a fundamental prerequisite

of the subjective experience of meaning.

Mhm.

The second step to that is to go through

some stuff around ego. So this is like

the other like big thing that we try to

focus on is like when your default mode

network is hyperactive, this is the part

of your brain that gives you a sense of

who you are.

Hyperactive default mode networks lead

to depression.

Hyperactive default mode networks also

lead to some degree of like existential

depression.

And this is where so many of my patients

get tripped up when they start reading

philosophy. This isn't against

philosophy, but remember this is

happening in a subjective mind. If

you're not careful, what we know is that

philosophy can turn into

intellectualizing.

That there is a psychological defense

where you start looking at theoretical

stuff and it sort of shapes the way that

your mind functions and it starts to

become maladaptive.

What does that mean in simple terms?

So people if you have a problem in life,

you can think about it a lot. You can

read about it a lot. There are a lot of

people that I've worked with that just

go on watching podcasts like chain

watching podcasts and reading books and

things like that, right? But their life

never changes.

Yes. So this is where so there's a

certain amount of like you know learning

how to ground yourself in your

experience which involves reducing

alexathyia which involves dis dissolving

your ego and this is another really

really important thing that I think we

find in people who have purpose because

if we go back to the earlier example of

the person who 30 days after they die

the world ends that person if they

decide to still write the book I think

that there is a certain egoless involved

in that, right? I'm doing it for the

sake of the work. It's not for the

benefit of humanity. It's not for some

transcendent purpose. It's not for

something that goes beyond my death.

Actually, it's the opposite. I am do

this doing this thing here and now just

for its own sake.

And so, preparing for this podcast, I

actually texted and called a couple of

my former patients. These are people

that I haven't seen in three to five

years. And I just asked them. I was

like, "Hey, bro. Do you have purpose?

Tell me what it is." And I was stunned

by how their answers are not about what

happens after they die.

They're very like, I'm just here for the

the flow of it, right? My purpose in

life is to experience what life has to

offer.

Mhm.

That's it. It's not about something

beyond you. And I think this is where

you're spot on, Alex, that a lot of

people deal with the fear of death by

wanting to live past it. But that is

actually that's the default mechanism

that we use. But that is actually

ego-driven, right? I want to exist.

Yes.

Beyond when I die. And so that gives

people some sense of purpose. But I

think the deepest sense of purpose

actually comes without that comes from

being able to make paper clips every day

and being content with that exercise.

You you're describing Seephus being

happy is what you're doing.

Yeah. So Seephus can be happy.

Yeah. I mean that that and and that's

explains Sephus for those that don't

know about the guy pushing the rock up

the hill.

Kimu who is an existentialist even

though he doesn't call himself an

existentialist. Um he founds this school

known as absurdism.

Um which is a word I used earlier too.

And he he tries to describe the

absurdest condition of one in which you

have all of these desires about the

world but the world literally just can't

fulfill them. You're looking for

meaning. it's not there. It literally

that your your desire and the real world

are in conflict. And he calls this the

realization of this absurdity. And he

writes this this short treaty called the

myth of Seisphus, which is based on an

actual ancient myth of Seisphus who is

condemned by the gods as punishment to

roll a boulder up a hill. And when it

gets to the top, it rolls back down

again. And he goes back down and he

pushes the boulder up to the top of the

hill. And he does that over and over

again for eternity. The real torture of

this is not so much the suffering of the

pushing of the boulder. There's that,

but the suffering in the knowledge that

it's meaningless. And that that

describes the absurdest condition. Um,

and Alberu tries to respond to this by

imagining Sephus being happy and

essentially as an act of rebellion

against this condition, just getting on

with it anyway and being okay with it.

I've never been fulfilled by this. I

I've I've sort of always thought that

this may literally and I I understand

that there are people who could do that.

There are people who could write the

book and I I thought of Seisphus when

you said the person who writes the book

anyway because it almost feels like an

act of rebellion because it's not you

didn't just say they still write the

book. You said they write the book

anyway. They do it despite they do it

almost in protest of this condition.

Some people can do that but I think that

that that is

probably a sort of psychological cope.

Um no it's it's not it's not a cope.

It's a mechanism.

Well, I'm saying I think it's a code. I

think that I think that that it's not

grounded in in anything rational.

I don't know if it's grounded in

anything rational. It's absolutely

grounded in something empirical.

Sure. But like again, you can

empirically like explain exactly why

somebody's brain is doing what it's

doing, but that doesn't mean that that

there's any rationality or truth in the

thing that their brain believes.

Sure. Right. But but I think this goes

back to the issue of whether there's

capital P. But I I think that you can

you can observe the world

and you can make observations and you

can I don't know what your relation to

scientific observations and truth is

whether those things are connected or

not. But I I think that we know actually

there there there are multiple

psychological mechanisms some of which

are copes

and some of which are not copes.

I suppose I mean like a philosophical

cope. I mean like it's it's not I think

it's untrue. I think that the person who

um is content in such a condition is

almost by definition delusory.

What does delusory mean?

Uh like under the influence of a

delusion. I think that it it is not a

happiness inducing condition to be Cphus

rolling his boulder up the mountain.

Yeah. So so this is where I I I think

the data is actually against that. So

what the data shows is that it is your

attitude towards the circumstances of

your life that determines your happiness

or your lack of happiness.

Well, someone can be in a happy

delusion. In fact, that's why most

people suffer from delusions because it

makes them happy.

That's not why most people suffer from

delusions.

So do but you understand what I'm saying

that like like

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I

just I just think that it's

you can't empirically show that

something is not a delusion because it

makes people happy.

Yeah. So, so you can absolutely

differentiate between a psychological

cope.

Mhm.

And an attitude towards life that is not

a cope. And the reason you can

differentiate that is because of what is

underneath. And people can be

delusional, but they're not necessarily

delusional to make themselves happy. In

fact, quite the opposite. So, we have

diagnosis like schizophrenia of which

one of them is having delusions. And

those delusions, generally speaking, the

more schizophrenic and the stronger your

delusions are, the more that inversely

correlates with your happiness.

To be clear, I'm talking about like a

philosophical delusion.

The question I want to get an answer to

is this idea of the person who writes

the book or pushes the boulder up the

hill and can that person be have a

purposeful life?

Absolutely. So, so this is where this is

what's so confusing for people is that

people think so what Alex is saying I

think is a really really common

representation of what people think

about purpose. My purpose is to make

something that is greater for than me.

My purpose is to have some meaning or

impact in the world around me. What we

know is there's a a great example of

this called self-determination theory

which is that if you ask people if you

look at people who have purpose what you

find is it's not about anything

transcendent

have purpose or have a sense of purpose.

have a sense of purpose.

Okay, we're asking them subjectively,

right? So if you if we're like like you

know and that's what I think

and these people are less likely to be

addicted to things are more resilient,

tend to be subjectively happier as well.

So we're talking about subjective,

right?

What you find is that they have three

things. The first is that they have some

degree of self-direction. So this is

like I choose to do something. They're

not just taking it from life. They are

making choices. And this is where people

also get confused because they think

like which choice is right. That kind of

thinking is actually irrelevant. There

isn't a right choice or a wrong choice.

What correlates with your sense of

direction is whether you make it or not.

So you actually need to get away from

the concept of right and wrong. The

second thing is that they need a

stretching of their competence. So if

you just take a bunch of people who are

not being pushed and finding themselves

grow then their sense of direction or

purpose will decrease. And the third

thing is a sense of relatedness. So

there is something where I have to know

who I am and have other people see that

part of me. And if you cultivate these

three variables, then your purpose will

empirically

and by empirical what I mean is that we

can measurably we can literally measure

people's subjective experience in an

objective way. And so like these kinds

of things I think can end up improving

your purpose.

What are you measuring when when you're

looking for

Alex? Just I just would love to get your

answer to this idea. Can you do you

think the person who is pushing the

boulder up the hill or is writing the

book even though the world's about to

end can still genuinely live a

subjectively and by subjective I mean in

their in their opinion um purpose

purposeful life.

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I think Seephopus

can be happy, but I think that's not the

attitude that I would have and I don't

for myself find it satisfying any

analogy which is sufficiently similar to

the Seisphus condition that is and the

attempted solution is well just imagine

Cisphus happy. Um that's how he

literally ends the myth of Seisphus. One

must imagine Sisphus happy and I can

imagine him and say you know good for

him. Um, but

do you think you would be happier if you

believed in Greg's views of the world?

Almost certainly. Um, but not because of

Greg's views, but because of the the

confidence and satisfaction that they

bring. I'd think I'd feel just as much

meaning in my life if I was a convicted

Muslim or were I uh a Jane or something

like that, I think I would find that

fulfillment.

So, the content of the theology has no

bearing in your mind on the way a person

experiences their life. Of course it

does. Can you explain specific terms

content of the theology?

Well, the content well you talk about

different religions and there's these

different religions are in they they

cannot all be true as Alex has pointed

out. They have different content. They

say different things about human human

beings. For example, um the the u

the view that human beings are just uh

an illusion. The reality is illusion

maya that kind of thing. Well, that

seems to me to convey a certain

understanding to human beings about

themselves and about the world. If you

have a view that human beings are

significant individuals, this is going

to convey a whole different experience

that they have. So, in other words, the

theology that they believe is true is

going to affect their feelings and their

experience. This is what I was getting

back at uh a little bit ago when I

talked about the person whose life has

been changed by becoming a Christian.

And uh these aren't just what you

explained to your friend, these are not

things that just happen here and there,

but there seems to be a very very broad

experience of this um and a change that

doesn't depend on circumstances. Okay?

It's because they adopt a understanding

of the the world that I think is an

accurate understanding. And this is why

their emotions and their experience

follows along because they're choosing

an accurate understanding of the world.

When you look at Jesus in the Gospels, I

I think it's so interesting to me that

people read the Gospels to be uplifted

by the reading of it, it seems that

misses the point that Jesus is talking

about the way the world is. He's

teaching about the nature of reality. He

was a Torah observant Jew. He wasn't a

Hindu. He wasn't a Buddhist. He was a

Jew. And he spoke in the context of

that.

So just to simply read the gospels as if

we're going to read the uh some nice

things that people said to make me feel

better is missing Jesus' point when he's

trying to describe the nature of

reality.

I don't think that's how the gospels

should be read. But I do think I

I have a question for you on that. This

a personal question more than anything.

So I find myself in the same position as

Alex where I think I'd be happier all

things considered if I had an anchoring

in a religion. I think that's like a

subjectively true that I'd be happier.

Um, probably just because it would close

a gap of some sort. It would it would

anchor me in some way,

answer a question.

It would answer a question and then with

it would give me more of a structure to

my decision-m and

you know it would mean that when I have

moments of suffering, I'd have a

solution to that moment of suffering. So

if my parents end up dying someday,

which I'm sure they will, I will believe

that they are still alive and they are

somewhere and they're fine, which will

ease my suffering. So I agree with Alex

in that regard. The problem I have is in

order to adopt that view, I need some

kind of I need to believe it. It's true.

Like people can't aren't very good at

lying to themselves. And also when you

talk about my friend in Dubai has had

this experience, he now feels better. He

could have well felt better, I believe,

if he had, you know, believed that Islam

was true and become a Muslim.

So, so it's the feeling itself people

can get in a lot of ways. I know people

that actually would tell you that they

they feel better now that they're out of

the cult and they're agnostic.

Sure.

And the cult the cult made them feel

terrible. Now they're agnostic, they

feel better. Does that mean agnosticism

is truth?

So the the presumption that you made is

a presumption. We have to keep that in

mind. I mean the the people that I have

talked to who were former Muslims and

are now Christians, very devout Muslims,

they did not have the experience of

satisfaction and fullness and connection

with God with in Islam that they do in

Christianity. Okay. So we want to be

careful that we know there are people

who do it.

Yeah. There's people that would have

gone the other way and they'll be in the

comment section right now saying, "Well,

I went from Christianity to Islam."

Okay. Well, sure. I'm just telling you

what I what I know of those people.

Okay. And uh it's I think it's a mistake

to say well everybody has their own

religion. They have their so experience

with their religion because I don't

think that's the case. I'm not saying

there aren't satisfied Muslims. That's

not what I'm saying. Or Buddhist or

Hindus or whatever. I'm but what I'm

saying is the the there is an evidential

element to the changed life. Okay. And

it may not be decisive. There may be

other things that are involved. Okay. Um

I do think that for many Christians, I

think you've made this point in the past

too. It's the experience with God that

makes the difference. But it's not that

the other evidences for the existence of

God, maybe philosophical type of

evidence, haven't made a difference

because I've talked to lots of people

where they have made the difference

moving them in that direction.

Point the point there that it's

evidential. That's a presumption.

What I mean by evidential is that there

is uh information that can be brought to

bear that seems to be evidence

um indicating that the belief system is

true. It's

is that a presumption?

I don't know why you would call that a

presumption

as in the the evidence that evidence

that Christianity is true from the

increased sense of purpose that people

get from becoming a Christian.

I think that's one of the evidence. It's

a subjective evidence. Yeah. So it's

evidence of the truth of Christianity.

Well, I wouldn't build the whole thing,

but it's evidence. It's contributing

evidence to the actual truth of think

the story of reality is simply that God

made us to be with him.

And then we find the way that God

intends for us to connect with him

principally through forgiveness and be

restored to our relationship with the

father. And then that gives us when we

do that a deep sense of satisfaction. I

do think that's evidential,

you know, in Alex Field, he could

explain that through neuroscience,

right? Serotonin, dopamine, endorphins.

Yeah. So, can I go back to something

real quick? Go ahead. So, you know, I

was thinking about the sisphus example.

Yes.

And I was just thinking to myself,

you know, so many people go to the gym

to do futile physical activity,

but not on its own for eternity with no

sense in which it's improving their

life. Right? Imagine going to the gym

and not only is it not making you

healthier, it's actually just making you

fatter and you have to do it forever for

the rest of eternity for no reason with

no end. And then somebody says, "Well,

all you've got to do is imagine that

person being happy."

Yeah. So that's kind of interesting

because then that presumes that the

attitude through which you approach the

action is what determines it.

Determines what?

Determines whether you're happy or not.

Right? So every time you eat,

y

you buy yourself a trip to the toilet.

This is something you can never escape.

It is true for all time. And yet, how do

you feel about going to the toilet?

I'm maybe I'm misunderstanding what

you're getting.

So So I I I think it's it's interesting,

right? Because you're the problem of

Seisphus is in the way that he views it.

And this is exactly why I think the

paperclip example is like actually such

a good one because I think what we find

when we look at some of these things

like radical acceptance, dialectical

behavioral therapy, sort of the ways in

which people become happy despite the

fact that there are painful things in

life. It is an attitudinal shift.

Totally. I I think I think one of the

reasons why it might seem like we keep

talking across purposes is because I

think you're you are offering an

explanation for why people feel a

particular way. And I'm trying to see

whether those those feelings are, shall

we say, philosophically validated.

Whether they are those those feelings

are are sensitive to truth. If the way

you feel about the world is accurate. So

I can I can perfectly understand that

it's possible for Seisphus to be happy.

What I'm saying is that I think that the

philosophical underpinning that would be

required for him to be content in that

condition is

unsatisfying, at least to me. So as a as

a

what what so what is a what is a

philosophical truth?

It doesn't have to I mean maybe I

shouldn't say philosophical truth but I

mean to say I mean to separate it from

what you might describe as like a

neurological truth which is to say it

could be true that your brain believes

this or believes that based on this or

that condition. I'm saying that totally.

But what I'm interested in is the thing

that it believes. Is it true or false?

You know it could be in the same way

that you know believing in Christianity

can make you happy. It can make you sad

and you can you can scan someone's

brain. You can put them in an MRI

scanner and scan their brain when they

at the moment they convert to

Christianity and see that it starts

going haywire.

But the brain is not going to show any

beliefs. It's just nothing to do with

the truth in the brain.

Neurological activity beliefs aren't

beliefs aren't in the brain.

Yeah, we we're we're going to get to

that in a second.

I kind of I kind of agree with that. So,

Alex, I think this is what I I I thank

you so much for pointing out how we're

kind of talking across each other

because I I think this is the really

weird thing and I'm going to say

something and then as we talk about

consciousness and what we just talked

about, I'm going to torpedo it.

But I I think what we sort of find is

that from a practical sense and this

could be where like philosophy I I don't

know what the how the word practical

ties together with philosophy because I

tend to think of philosophy as sort of

practical. We can go into that in a

second. But I I think from the

perspective of finding purpose.

Mhm.

Now, I'm not talking about purpose as a

capital P truth, right? The capital T

truth.

Finding purpose.

What it may not be philosophically

satisfying to you, but what we sort of

know from empirical evidence of people

who are purposeless and people who are

purposeful is that the the subjective

feeling of purpose is comes out of a

number of different things like like I

mentioned like kind of autonomy being

able to detect your emotions also a

sense of like narrative identity. So

having a purpose in life requires a U.

And one of the reasons that no one feels

like they are going somewhere in life is

because they don't really have a clear

sense of who they are.

And so

I think that it's a great kind of catch

that we're sort of talking across

purposes because I I don't know the

thing that you find philosophic not

philosophically true maybe

neurologically true but isn't

philosophically true.

I don't know how to approach that. I

mean I think I sort of do because if we

talk about consciousness and subjective

experience and how your friend was

transformed and by the way he may not be

transformed. So there's speaking of

coping there's a chance that when

someone you know drastically joins a

religion they're like this is great that

is like the mother of all copes right so

sometimes they find they adopt they it's

not identity formation it's actually

identification where like I'm going to

join this team and now I'm on this team

and now that I have this team now I know

who I am now I have a purpose like

everything kind of gets laid out but

often times this is also why religion is

not like 100% at giving people happiness

and and things like that because there

is an internal subjective experience

erience of a relationship with God or

something like that which I think we can

segue to consciousness. That's

ultimately what determines whether you

you feel really good about it. And then

the other really interesting thing is

through some of those subjective

experiences

I think we the people who have these

subjective experiences believe that it

gives them access to truth with a higher

tea like the Gnostics and and and folks

like that. Mhm.

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Let me just bring it back down to um

some of the popular questions we had

from our audience. One of the most

popular questions we had is, "Do we each

have a specific per purpose or is it

self-chosen?" Greg.

Well, in my view, if God has made us for

a reason and he wants us to be in

relationship with us, each individual

person has different capabilities and

fulfilling those capabilities that God

has given him, general ones and specific

ones. Like I have my own particular

peculiar capabilities. Doing that is

going to make me satisfied. Okay.

So, did God give me a purpose?

Yes.

And is it different from Alex's purpose?

I would say in in the in the the in the

kind of the minutia. Yes. You're a

different individual than he is.

And can I ask you a question that then

springs to mind? Yeah. Again, I'm very

curious. If Steven Butler had gotten

cancer at one years old and I died,

I see. Yeah. Well, then you wouldn't be

fulfilling the particulars that God had

intended for you. But that kind of thing

happens because we live in a broken

world.

It isn't the perfect world. It is not

the good. It's It's not the totally good

moral that God made. Something happened

that broke the world. Human rebellion.

Human rebellion.

At what point in history?

Well, early on with our first parents.

Okay.

So, the first humans,

the first humans, that's why all humans

since then have the same proclivity

towards evil. It's pretty much

quantifiable.

Does that include other species of

human?

Well, I know that's a question that a

lot of people are discussing right now.

Okay. And where exactly do you draw the

line? And I'm not

that isn't an area that I go deep in.

But I do think that there was a an

original progenitor to the human race as

we understand it right now.

That has the image of God in man

and violated God's commands, rebelled

against God, and that had an impact on

the world. Okay? And that is why so

therefore you're going to have some

people aren't going to be,

you know, fulfilling all of their the

ultimate purposes that God has for them

in this world. Just to be clear,

children

get cancer.

Sure.

Because say 2 million years ago roughly

started the human species.

I'm not going to set a date on it.

Somebody rebelled against God's

Yeah.

commands and that is the explanation for

this is a fair question and you know

some of these details I haven't worked

out. What about earthquakes and tsunamis

and all those kinds of things? Okay. Um

clearly there is an impact of human

rebellion upon the earth. Okay. what the

extent of that impact is, I'm not

entirely sure. But this is why I use the

word broken because it's a rather broad

term rather than trying to identify

every instance of things that seem

anomalous to a good world, not the way

it should be, so to speak. Okay. I think

that's an explanation for these things

even though we can't necessarily itemize

each individual particular instance and

how it falls short. Alex, I want to put

the same question to you, which is do

you think that you were born with a

purpose that was endowed for your life?

No, not not in a literal sense. I think

that there are that I was born with

literal like proclivities built into my

my consciousness and my DNA. Um,

almost want to do

tendencies. Yeah, tendency is a great

word. Yeah. For example, my tendency to

to eat food. I I I don't think I learned

that. I think I was born with it. But

it's like I would use the language of

when you say if you said do you think

that you were you know you were given

hunger from birth I'd be like no in a

poetic sense maybe but what I mean say

is I was born with this thing called

hunger which I didn't learn which is

just a part of my makeup. I think the

same thing is true for many motivations

of life such as the sort of meaning that

you that you might report feeling. I

think it's there from from child birth.

Same question for you Alec. Do you think

that we each have a specific purpose or

is it self-chosen? I think it's both.

So, I'm going to introduce two concepts

that we haven't talked about yet. Dharma

and karma. And um I think these are

concepts that

are sometimes hard to understand. I'm

going to do my best to kind of speedrun

them. So, dharma is the Sanskrit word

that kind of gets translated as duty. Uh

the way that I would describe dharma,

the reason I think it's so important is

right now if we look at the world,

people are like not having a good time.

And often times what they do is they're

stuck between this choice of doing what

they want and doing what they should. So

doing what they want is maybe

dopamineergic is maybe fun in some way.

Doing what they should is like painful

in some way. So for me what I think

dharma is dharma is like sort of duty.

But I think the key thing that helps

people once they find their dharma is

it's what allows you to choose the

negative thing. It it's what allows you

to choose the hard thing. So if someone

points a gun at me and I look at that

gun, that gun means pain, suffering,

death, you know, my life will will will

end and then I will have nothing to

leave behind me. So my purpose will end.

So I I try to move away from that thing.

But if someone points the gun at my

child because I have this overwhelming

sense of of love and joy or whatever, I

step into the path of that thing. So I

think once we understand what our duty

is, that gives us a sense of tethering.

It gives us a sense of direction. Um I

think what confuses a lot of people is

that they think duty is like some

transcendental that's like a big thing

like duty with a capital D like I was

born on this earth to do these like

particular big tasks like I need to say

cure cancer or something like that.

Often times dharma is really small. So

duty is not transcendent then it's not

tied to some moral transcendent thing.

I I think I don't know about moral. So

this is where I think like I

you said shoulders versus should. So

that's usually a moral term, right,

in the west, right? So I think there's a

whole different set of axioms. I'm using

dharma and that's what people will like

put morality onto dharma where I I don't

think that that's actually fair.

So so I going back to I have a duty just

to give another example. Um and y'all

can decide whether this is moral or not,

but when I'm sort of working in the

emergency room and you know a patient

walks in, I have a duty to that patient.

So what a lot of people don't understand

about dharma is that it is very

environmentally determined. So your

dharma will depend somewhat on you know

the the family that you have the

responsibilities that you have. If you

have children you have a dharma to those

people. So I think that's one part of

what we would call purpose. I think the

other part of purpose and I think this

gets really closer to the more western

conception is karma. So going back to

your your question about you know if a

child with with cancer uh dies at the

age of one is their purpose fulfilled

arguably yes because that could have

been their purpose in this life right so

their purpose could have been so there's

a really interesting story about you

know many years ago there was a there

were a group of angels this I'm just

going to use the western terminology

devas who disturbed Shiva in his

meditation and so he cursed them and he

said I'm going to the curse that you

guys are going to do is y'all are going

to be born on the earth for one lifetime

of a human. And then the devas were

like, "Oh my god, like this is

terrible." Like we're going to be cursed

to be born on the earth and the earth is

full of suffering and sisphus and

there's no meaning with a capital M. So

then they go to Shiva's daughter and

they ask her, "Hey, can you help us

out?" Like, "Can you please go talk to

your dad? Can you please get him to

change his sentence?" And she says that

Shiva is never going to change his

sentence. That's impossible to do. He's

also kind of this embodiment of karma

and things like that. But so he says,

"But I can help y'all out. What I can do

is I'm going to be born with y'all." And

then there's this other story in the

Mahabharat where basically she has seven

children and then she drowns them the

day after they're born. And so she says,

"The technical situation is you're going

to be born for one lifetime. I can make

a lifetime happen in a moment." Now, I

don't know if that's true. I don't know

if that's moral. I don't know if it's

mythology

but a potential explanation for why

children get cancer.

It's a potential explanation for why

children get cancer. Now I think the the

karma thing is when you said is your

purpose in life predetermined. So I

think that you inherit

a certain amount of circumstances

and that part of your purpose will be in

relation to the circumstances that you

inherit. But the other thing about karma

which I think a lot of people

misunderstand is they think that it

means destiny. I think all it means is

Newton's third law which is every action

has an equal and opposite reaction. That

while you may inherit a set of

circumstances

the way that you act is sewing seeds for

your future life.

So, this is where like, you know, I I

know I'm introducing a bunch of concepts

and it's interesting. I, you know, we we

started a a membership program here at

Healthy Gamer, and part of the reason we

did that is because a lot of these

concepts, if you turn them into like

50-minute YouTube videos, people just

end up with more questions than answers.

So, we go into a lot of depth, and I

think it requires some depth because I'm

sure everybody who's listening has a ton

of questions. But in order to succinctly

answer your question, I would say that

yeah, you were born for I don't know

about a specific reason, but there's a

set of different things which only you

can do like you are a unique set of

genetics. You are a unique set of

experiences. You are a unique set of

psychology. And this process it in

psychiatry is something that we call

meaning making helps a lot when people

have trauma. Right? So to help someone

understand why did this terrible thing

happen to you? And once you make meaning

from it, that helps you adaptively.

But I think that it's also not like

predestined necessarily. You can

procrastinate on fulfilling your karmmas

and then they'll just keep coming back.

So Dr. K, I still have a question about

this. You you talk about duty and I'd

asked about morality there and you you

kind of begged off on that. Well, not

really. But then you use the word

obligation in the emergency room. And it

sounds to me when you talk about those

things, you are actually invoking moral

categories. Things you ought to do. You

have an obligation to do. You have a

duty to do. Maybe the right thing. You

didn't use this phrase, but it sounds

like you're saying this is the right

thing to do, the virtuous thing to do as

opposed to the wrong thing to do. So how

how am I to understand those phrases if

they are not really invoking genuine

moral categories?

So when you say moral categories, are

you referring to a transcendental right

and wrong?

I'm talking about ethical principles,

ethical rights and wrong if you want.

They are transcendent because they're

not simply in the molecules as it were.

They're above us trans. So yes, in that

sense. Okay.

Yeah. And uh has and there are

consequences to our behaviors one way or

another. And the consequences it's not

just you know utilitarian. It's not just

well I if I put toast in too long it'll

burn the toast but you're you ought to

do the things that you just described.

You ought to help that person. Okay. I

think it's a fairly common sensible word

a moral category virtue vice kind of

thing.

I I think whether it's common sensical

depends on what's common right? So I I

think that this is where these concepts

I don't think are onetoone. So I think

doing your dharma is basically the way I

would describe your dharma is when I

throw a ball in the air, it comes down.

Okay.

Right. So dharma is kind of doing what

is the second part of what you've kind

of signed up for. So when you say you

ought to help the person in the

emergency room, all you mean is you're

not morally compelled to do that in in

terms of a virtue, but there is a a

consequence for you to do that as

opposed to doing the opposite.

Yes. And I think there is a layer of

morality, but that is not within dharma.

So for example, there are yamas and

nyamas, which are things like

truthfulness, a himsa, which means

non-violence. So there's a set of

different things that we would generally

speaking call morality. And doing those

things is usually in accordance with

dharma. But you know the mahabharat is a

great case of someone saying I don't

want to kill my cousins and I don't want

to kill my teacher and Krishna saying

you absolutely should because it is in

accordance with dharma. So I think

dharma often times gets like translated

over to morality but I think you lose

something in translation.

Greg can I ask you do you think you have

a you can have a fulfilling life without

having a transcendent purpose

in some measure. in some measure. What I

described earlier is if God made us for

a purpose and made the world for human

flourishing and I think we get a basic

description of that in the beginning of

our story for example then people who

don't even believe in God or even about

even anything religious at all if they

if they fall within the pattern of the

things that God has created for

flourishing they're going to flourish in

some significant measure. You mentioned

a few moments ago about having children

and this is somewhat of a universal

experience. Now you made a kind of a

naturalistic characterization of why we

feel that way. Um my sense is that God

made us for that purpose. Be fruitful,

multiply, subdue. And subdue doesn't

mean rape the earth. It means to work

productively what God has given us to

serve. Now somebody can get married and

stay married and have children and

fulfill that purpose there and be very

satisfied in doing it as opposed to all

kinds of other var variations that it's

just going to mess up their life. and

they're going to experience satisfaction

and fulfillment in it. But that's

because they're in a certain sense

they're doing the things that God has

made human beings to do so that they

would flourish. It's just like you can

think of it in very mechanistic terms.

You have a vehicle that meant to operate

a certain way and if you do the things

properly for that vehicle, it's going to

run well and do

so. So I can have a I can have a grand

feeling of purpose if I do many of the

the things that are considered virtuous

within scripture without needing to

believe.

Yeah, you could still be virtuous.

Certainly you can do those things. My

argument and this is what I was getting

at a little earlier uh Dr. K is that if

if there is no God establishing a right

and wrong then there is no right and

wrong because there is no law that we're

we're we're conforming ourselves to. We

are just doing stuff. All right. Now, if

you believe the sort of evolutionary

perspective on this,

taken as a whole, I don't not the way

that uh Alex has taken. It's a grand

explanation of pretty much everything.

It's not an explanation of everything.

It's an explanation of the variance of

life on Earth

because evolution does I was thinking

about my dog. I was thinking about Pablo

and I was thinking, why does he have sex

with other dogs? Why does he why does he

protect his puppies?

Yeah.

You know, why does he do these things

that somewhat in uh Dr. K's example

there, he he takes care of things. takes

care of me when I'm not in the house. If

someone comes in and my girlfriend's

there, he takes care of

my girlfriend. He barks only when she's

at home alone. So, he seems to be

expressing some form of morality. He

seems to understand his own sort of idea

of right and wrong. But I has that

well, I wouldn't characterize it that

that way as if he's thinking I ought to

do this and if I don't do that, then I'm

doing something wrong. I think animals

have instincts that they're im imbued

with that can be influenced by natural

factors to some degree, I guess. Um, but

they are made for purposes. And this is

the reason that many of the creatures

act the way they do is because of these

very sophisticated instincts that allow

them to get along in life and do well

and survive and reproduce.

But I don't I don't have any reason to

think that they're Yeah. survive and

reproduce, of course.

But I don't have any reason to think

that they're thinking I'm doing the

moral thing.

And if they didn't do the thing that we

would be uh it would be appropriate to

accuse them of doing something immoral,

or whatever. History's almost shown that

even in times where where we look back

and go that was not the moral thing like

you know Nazis in in World War II.

Yeah.

Um they acted in a way that was helped

them survive in the context therein. So

the Nazi that would you know would go to

the concentration camp then come home

and be really nice to his family. He

thought he was doing the right thing.

This is why one of the reasons I think

this is the evolutionary explanation is

inadequate. Okay. because it seems that

there are lots of things that people do

that seem to be good for them or for

their tribe that characteristically

we'll look at and we'll assess it and

the assessment would is that that is

wrong it's evil it's wicked and I think

that our assessments are reliable in

that regard okay that we have moral

intuitions that allow us to see things

that are real about that and these

things are relatively universal I mean

it doesn't matter where you live or when

you live people are asking the question

about the problem of evil in the world

okay and I think definition of what evil

was seems to change over time because me

I mean I wouldn't be sat at this table

many a couple hundred years ago because

I'm black

and everybody at the time thought that

that was the right thing they didn't

think that was an evil thing at the time

well everybody at the time didn't think

that you know there are going to be

social mores and that are going to

change over time and do people do

respond in different ways but just

because you have variations in the way

people believe about morality doesn't

mean that there's there isn't a morality

that's a sound morality And Lewis has CS

Lewis has done a study of this looked at

the kinds of things that seem to

transcend culture in terms of

assessments, moral assessments that seem

to be true about every culture. A lot of

times the differences are not

differences in moral facts, but they're

uh like the morality is actually

changed, but a difference in perception.

Okay. So what uh what counts as uh

heroism in some cases would not count as

heroism in other cases even though

heroism is considered a noble kind of

thing. I've been waiting for an

opportunity to rewind to the fact that

we just brushed over

two of what I think are the best

available at least first that came to

mind explanations as to why children get

cancer.

And I just wondered as as a as a

question whether you consider whether

whether your explanation sounds to you

as your explanation sounds to you as I

think both of them sound to me and I

don't know how they sound to use to you

but the idea that

the thing that we are most fundamentally

confronted with I think on an

existential level is suffering

and there's our own suffering and then

there's the suffering of others and the

seemingly meaningless suffering of a

child who's undergoing cancer and does

not survive it

and I'm told that in the face of such

existential

tragedy

turn to religion to give us a a sort of

sense of fulfillment and a sense of

explanation. But when asked about the

mechanism of how I'm told it's because

at some undisclosed number of years ago

somebody committed a sin against God and

that's why your child has now died of

cancer. There are millions of people who

listen to this show. there will be

people listening to this whose children

have died of cancer. I wonder if that

brings them any kind of consolation.

Similarly, the idea that, you know,

maybe it's some disgruntled angels who

didn't want to come down to earth for

too long and so if anything, you're

actually doing them a favor by killing

them of cancer. I don't know if that's

bringing the kind of people they're

looking for.

What's your answer to that?

I don't think I have one, but I don't

like people professing that they do have

an answer, but when it comes down to it,

actually saying something which I think

will provide the opposite effect, which

and I don't mean this personally. I mean

as as a point of religious explanation,

the idea that this comfort

everyone's going to get a chance to

respond to this. So

the idea that this even approximates an

explanation as to why this happens. I

would ask you to consider what you find

more likely if we assume that we are

essentially existing here as accidental

accidental organisms just competing in a

struggle for survival with no endowed

meaning or supervision. What might we

expect to find? And I would ask what you

would expect to find if we were created

with purpose by a loving God who wants

us all to come into communion with him,

but for some reason thinks it's

necessary that we exist in this veil of

tears in this material world first. What

would you expect to find?

I don't think. And then look at what you

do find. Look at what you do find in the

natural world. Even if you just take

into consideration nonhuman animal

suffering,

just an unfathomable amount of negative

experience right?

For seemingly no reason. Not to mention

the fact that children are getting

cancer as you say and as you've already

alluded to there are evils that humans

commit like the holocaust. But there are

evils which they don't like earthquakes

and tsunamis and the like.

I don't think we would expect to see any

of this if we assume that hypothesis.

But if we assume that we are just

accidentally existing organisms in a in

a struggle for survival, not only do we

explain this, but we also come to expect

it. So I think it provides a much better

explanation. That is not to say

justification. The idea we were talking

about evolution, you said that the

problem that you have with the Darwinian

worldview is that it seems to say that

it seems to favor survival of the

fittest. And yet there are things which

evolution seems to point to that we

would morally condemn. Well, of course,

because evolution by natural selection

is an explanation for how things got the

way they were. It's in no way a

justification for behaviors. It it

doesn't even function that way. No

scientific theory of why things happen

are any kind of justification any more

than Newton's laws of gravity are a

justification, a moral justification for

the motion of the planets. That's of

course it's not the case. It's just an

explanation. But I just really want to

drive home this point

that it has to do more. If you want

religious traditions to do what you

claim that they do, which is provide

existential comfort for people who are

suffering, you have to do more in the

face of children dying of cancer than

some reference to mythical human beings

who existed or

in in a way that's completely

unintelligible.

There's a lot there. Okay. I don't

expect it could be comfort to anybody to

say who's suffering from whatever to say

that there was a fall. Okay. The fall is

just the explanation for what went wrong

and why there is wrong in the world.

Like I said earlier, doesn't matter

where you live or when you live,

everybody knows something's wrong. And

the way they express that concern about

something wrong is in moral terms. The

world is not the way it ought to be.

Should be different there. And then when

you give examples of it, sometimes

there's natural evil, but generally it's

examples of moral evil. What we would

call moral evil. Okay. Things that

people shouldn't do. Okay? That's why I

particularly avoided those.

No. Right. You didn't include any

examples and but you the implication is

and this is where you know Richard

Dawkins's famous statement that this is

exactly the kind of world we'd expect

if there was at the basis you know no

design no justice no evil no good

nothing but blind pitless indifference.

Phil

well I actually think this isn't the

world that we find the one he just

described. Yes, it's a world filled with

suffering and there's a way of

explaining that which you just did.

There's also another way of explaining

it that has a solution. Okay. Um what is

that explanation?

Pardon me that God is in the process of

solving the problem of evil over time. I

mean the explanation for why the evil's

there in the first place. You said the

fool and I I don't mean to interrupt but

you said it you've referenced the fool

twice now and the last time I tried this

you it seemed like you sort of said that

you don't really know but if the fool is

I wasn't I wasn't giving particular

details about the ancestry of human

evolution

historically what is the fool

the fall is when our first parents

characteristically known as Adam and Eve

in the story the account of reality

um rebelled against God and when they

rebelled against God they disobeyed him

is what's important uh he had given them

restriction. They disobeyed that. And

when they disobeyed that, they broke

their relationship with God through

rebellion. They broke their relationship

with each other. They broke their

relationship with the environment. All

of that had these kind of cosmic

effects. There's a solution though.

That's just the first three. You know

what the command was? Finish the

thought. Okay. The the principal issue

is rebellion or disobedience. Okay.

There are different ways it's

characterized, but that's the point in

my view. The disobedience. Okay. of of

what though?

Pardon me.

Disobedience of of what? Like what was

it?

God told them not to do one thing. Don't

eat from the the tree of the knowledge

of good and evil and they disobeyed.

Do you interpret that literally? Pardon?

Like an actual tree and an actual fruit.

I do take that as a straightforward

account, but that's not the important

part. I don't want to get

So children get cancer because somebody

ate So children get cancer because a few

million years ago someone ate a fruit.

Let me just back up and give you the

entire account. This would be this would

be I think more helpful.

I'm not trying to be difficult by the I

just really I I don't want to just brush

over these points when we reference. I

mean, people listening might be like,

I've never heard of fool. I've never

heard of Adam and Eve. They'll need to

know what

the point I'm making is that there was a

disobedience by human beings that had an

impact on their relationship with God,

which they were created for, and had an

impact on the rest of the world. And

since then, pro that problem of evil

broadly grit. Since then, the world's

been broken. And God has a plan for

bringing that back together. not only

for making the world whole again, but

also for bringing human beings back in

proper relationship with him when

they're in rebellion with him. And this

is where Jesus comes in. Now, I I I've

written a piece called The Story of

Reality, a book that's meant to

characterize that in fairly clear terms

in more general terms. It isn't meant to

answer all of these questions because

some of them, frankly, are

imponderables, but the larger picture

can be understood and is in the story.

It's in the account of reality in the

scriptures, the Hebrew scriptures and in

the Christian scriptures, they form a

unit. Okay? And these are the things

that Jesus spoke to and Jesus took these

things seriously based on what he had to

say about these particular things. Okay?

So because we broadly speaking now

because we live in a broken world, there

is an answer that we have to that we

have a poss possible answer. You know,

it was uh Bertrren Russell who famously

said, "How are you going to talk about

God when you're kneeling at the bed of a

dying child?" which I think is very

emotionally compelling. But I listened

to philosopher William L Craig who you

also know I think

who said what is Bertrren Russell the

atheist going to say when he's kneeling

at the bed of a dying child.

Good luck. Too bad that's just the way

it goes. There is no answer that he has.

Dr. K, can you come with your response

as well?

Sure. First of all, Alex, I want to

thank you for

bringing up and being a bit bulldogish.

I mean that in a good way. You grabbed

something, you were like, "This is not

okay."

Well, we forget that people are

listening to this whose children have

died of cancer.

I I I totally get it.

I think we just need to keep it in mind,

you know,

100%. So, so I'm really glad you said

that because I realize that I offered a

terrible example. And I say this as

someone I can remember the day I was a

third-year medical student on my first

pediatric rotation. I was working in the

ICU overnight and there was a 9-year-old

child who had I think lymphoma

and I watched and was with their parents

as that child moved towards death. I

have worked in offices where people will

come into my my

uh office and they'll say, you know,

they'll they'll ask me about karma and

they'll be like, I was 9 years old when

I was sexually assaulted. Are you

telling me that this is like part of

purpose or whatever? I also remember

when I was in India, one of my best

friends, the first time I went to India,

I spent about seven years studying to

become a monk. I discovered a lot of

really cool stuff like meditation, had

some transcendental experiences, altered

my worldview. And one of my best friends

who is also a very accomplished

meditator I we kind of got to talking

about religion and I was like you know

what do you think about like Hinduism

and some of these concepts and he said I

can't accept any religion that says

if you were raped it's your fault. Yes.

So that stuck with me and so for a long

time at the very beginning Stephen asked

me a question. Am I Hindu? I mean am I

religious? And I guess I would say yes.

So that thought really stuck with me. I

think for a long time I was an atheist.

I think I'm still an atheist. I think

there are a couple of other things that

are a little bit unusual. So like people

think like in the west we think that

atheism, polytheism and monotheism are

contradictions. We don't really think

that in Hinduism like those things can

coexist. Mhm.

So, and what I'm really grateful for you

for is because I think when I'm so glad

you said that because I think when I

offered the example that I offered,

it's so interesting because I was

thinking about why I mentioned that we

have a membership. And the reason I

mentioned it is because this is this is

one of those things that I have lectured

about for four to six hours. And if you

listen to that lecture, then you will

understand the context that I'm coming

from. But without that context and if

you sort of assume there's so many

axioms about morality and deserving

that that that example without the

appropriate context sounds awful. It's

like your kid died at the age of one.

Oh, there's some greater purpose. You

just don't know what it is. you.

Yeah. Right.

That is not comforting at all. So here's

where I am now. I I really think this is

I think karma is good in the sense that

it it helps people. I I also think it's

true. But here's kind of where I am now.

So that was sort of my journey. I

realized it was out of order.

Transcendental experience. Gharma seems

awful. There's this concept of

deserving. Then many years later through

practice with people who have been

sexually assaulted and and watching

children die in the pediatric ICU

grappling with these problems. Not just

like there are people out there. It's

like you're in the room with these

people when their child is dying. What

do you say to them? And even more so now

as a psychiatrist with end of life care

and things like that. So I think the

first thing to understand or first

question that I have for you is when I

say the word karma, what does that mean

to you?

I don't know.

Okay.

I don't know what you mean you mean by

that.

So So I I think the first thing to

understand about karma is it's just the

principle of cause and effect.

Yeah. So when a child dies of cancer,

what would you say is the cause of their

death?

Well, I I I don't know about the science

of cancer very much, but I would suppose

it's the cancer.

Perfect. Right. So that is in accordance

with the law of karma. Now, what is the

reason they got cancer?

I don't know.

Okay.

I mean, whatever. Pick pick any reason

you like.

There could be a genetic mutation,

random chance, things like that.

So what I think that all karma is is

action and reaction. That's it.

So if you understand the doctrine of

garma, what it helps you do is see the

way that causes and effects link to each

other. It does not have anything to do

with deserving more so than if I have a

genetic mutation and I wind up with

cancer. That is an action that has an

effect. Th this is why I was reluctant

to engage with morality is because I

think there are certain assumptions that

I think come from this kind of Abrahamic

or Judeo-Christian worldview that get

injected

into these concepts like karma and

dharma which is why I hate translating

them because anytime I translate

something it's going to be filled in. So

you really have to understand karma. But

I would say all karma is devoid it of

remove it denote it of all morality

remove it of all deserve beyond simple

Newtonian mechanics and that actions

have consequences.

Now the reason that this is helpful okay

now I'm realize I'm making a functional

claim here not a claim about

philosophical truth because I don't know

what else to call it. I do think it's

philosophically true but that's not what

I'm talking about right here. um is that

when you're sitting with a human being

because your your your primary concern

is

when a child with cancer dies or is

dying, how do you deal how do you there

are people who are suffering. If we're

not careful, we're going to hurt them,

right? That's what you're saying.

Um that's one thing.

Yeah. Right. So, so I I think what I

sort of

there's how it makes people feel, but

there's also the literal explanation for

why they suffer. You know, it's one

thing to say that, you know, this this

religious uh narrative will bring you

some comfort, but it's another thing as

well. I think that's something you need

to keep in mind. But you're saying more

than that as a religious person, you're

not just saying that this narrative will

bring you comfort. You're saying this is

why it's happening. This is why your

child has cancer.

So, so what I would say, so here's my

kind of uh response to that. So the

first is I think that when I sit with

people who were sexually used at the age

of nine, didn't do anything to deserve

it, you know, people will say like, oh,

like you have to be careful what you

wear and stuff like that. I mean, I you

know, I have patients that were in

onesies and overalls and all kinds of

stuff.

Nine.

Uhhuh.

At the age of nine.

Yeah. People will say all kinds of

stuff. So, um, and and what I find with

working with them, and there's plenty of

data to back this up, is that there's a

certain amount of meaning making

that is necessary to comfort those

people to heal from that thing.

And the meaning making, if we're talking

about empirically,

making meaning out of things that are

bad is one of the ways that you

alleviate suffering. Mhm.

So one of the things that I find is

helpful as an option for that meaning

making is understanding the doctrine of

karma. And when I share it with people

doesn't work for everybody. So from a

clinical standpoint I'm not saying you

should believe in the doctrine of karma.

I'm just and I I'm not saying you should

believe in Christianity or anything like

that. The important thing is this is

what the science shows is you should

make a concerted effort to make meaning.

And because of my background, because of

my expertise,

helping people understand things from a

karmic perspective, I would say is

helpful about 80 to 90% of the time.

But there's a very important caveat

there from a data standpoint is that

there is a huge selection bias to who

comes into my office. there's a good

chance that these people are already

open to that concept and are interested

in learning more. So, I make no claims

about that concept being superior to

anything else.

But I think what we know from psychiatry

is that it's not so clear which one is

the best, but that you just have some

way of like making sense of what happens

to you.

Mhm.

And that's just one thing that I think

is

an option. And I happen to believe in

the principle of cause and effect, which

is all karma is. There's no morality

tied to it.

It sounds like you're saying that it's

just something that it just happens.

What do you mean it just happens?

It just happens.

No, absolutely not. I'm saying the exact

opposite. So it just happens does not

imply a cause.

No, it I mean it it just happens as the

result of some series of causes. Like

why do children get cancer? It's just

the result of a series of causes. Yes.

That's it.

Yes.

There's no redemption. There's no

meaning. There's no intention. It's just

it just happens. And that's fine because

I I I believe that's the case. I think

that's true.

No. No. I I mean I I think that we have

overwhelming evidence

overwhelming that if you have a BA

negative mutation on both sides that you

have a 98 to 99% chance of getting

breast cancer. that having this mutation

here warrants a prophylactic double

mastctomy which means removing both

breasts before the cancer even shows up.

But I think the reason why maybe I'm

wrong about this but I think the reason

you brought this up Stephen was not

because you were interested when you

said like I don't think you worded it

like this but you know why does the

child get cancer? Why would young Steven

have gotten cancer? I don't think you

mean in a scientific sense. I don't

think you mean literally explain to me

the process by which cancer develops in

my brain gives me leukemia. I think you

mean why does this happen if being

supervised? I mean, you asked it to to

Greg in the context of religious

supervision of the universe. And

I think the irony is that we're in a

context of a discussion where usually

the boot's on the other foot. And I'm

sort of being told that as a as a

non-religious person, as an atheist

agnostic, I don't have a satisfying

explanation. you know, what am I going

to say at the at the foottool of of

somebody who's who's dying of cancer?

But it sounds to me at least today like

we don't have a very plausible

alternative in Christianity. For

example, I did have a few questions

which maybe I'll be permitted the time

to to ask and I don't I don't want to

bang on about this, but it's important

because this is ultimately you're here

to represent your view and a worldview

more broadly. And this is to me the

question is the question of suffering.

And you've explained your your your

views about the the fool. And I wanted

to let you put them in full before I

asked a few questions. But the first

question that jumps out at me is the

question of prehuman suffering. We're

not the first species to inhabit this

planet. before we existed,

billions of years. I don't know if you

believe that the earth is 4 and a half

billion years old, but but

billions of years, hundreds of millions

of years at least of animal suffering.

Yeah.

Like and that is experienced. They they

like if and and you could say that it

somehow is less like relevant or doesn't

matter as much, but if if you saw me

right now step on a dog's tail and watch

it squeal, you tell me to stop because

you know that absent

just the effect that that has on our

human situation, that's bad for the dog.

That kind of stuff was going on for

hundreds of million years before humans

were around. That means before the fool.

That's true.

The second question, the second question

I have,

let's do one at a time.

Uh and I don't entirely know how to

answer that. Um part of the problem

comes when you create a world in a

certain way that has um certain cause

and effect kind of things. So pain is

there for a reason. Pain is there so

that you can avoid something that's

harmful to the body. When you start

feeling pain, you withdraw from it.

Okay? In a very simplistic sense. It

also has a downside and the downside is

that pain is painful and sometimes dying

is very painful too. So there's a

trade-off there. Now I haven't worked

all those details out. Okay. Uh but what

I look at is a larger picture because I

can't refine all of those things for my

own thinking. The larger picture is we

both we all live in the same world that

is filled with pain and suffering. So

then the question is who has the best

explanation writ large about how that

works? No explanation well maybe some

are are going to go very granular and

get the here's why your baby is

suffering this moment for this thing.

We're not going to be able to do that.

But we can understand why the world is

broken. Now, if you if you don't hold

that the world was made for something

better, then the world we see right now

is not broken. It's just the way it is.

There is no moral assessment whatsoever

that we can make that would make any

sense. But we constantly make moral

assessments, which is why you're

bringing this issue up suffering.

I've been very careful to avoid moral

language. Precisely this reason. Let me

explain how what I'm it seems to me that

you are bringing kind of smuggling in

moral categories with the suffering

issue because if I said I don't care

about the suffering of millions of years

of organisms that had experienced pain

that kind of cast me in a kind of a

negative moral light. You don't have to

say that. It does seem to me that you're

smuggling in the notion that suffering

is bad morally.

I know that people often do that. I'm

specifically avoiding that because I've

had this conversation a 100 thousand

times and that's that's the accusation

that that gets brought up and some

people do do that. But I'm specifically,

you can rewind the tape. I make great

pains. I don't say the problem of evil,

for example. I say the problem of

suffering. Okay?

If you said that you didn't care about

suffering, I would say that you're

probably just being inconsistent with

your Christian worldview. For example, I

wouldn't say that you're doing anything

immoral in the context of accept the

qualification.

So what I'm saying

is that if Christianity were true, we

would not expect the kind of suffering

that is present in the natural world.

I'm not saying that on my worldview that

suffering is wrong and must be fixed and

there's some moral element. I'm not

saying that at all. All I'm saying is

that it is unexpected if Christianity

were true that that suffering would be

as it is.

Well, the way

in particular the non-human animals.

No, I understand that. Okay. And the way

I'm the way I'm looking at

but do you understand that I'm not

smuggling in those moral moral because

you said that I'm smuggling in moral

terminology.

Can I buy that? It's okay.

I'm not doing that. You have a second

question. I did which is that if the

fool is the explanation for shall we say

the the moral evils that people commit

like the holocaust the reason why people

have a proclivity to commit the

holocaust is because of the betrayal of

God's trust

few million years ago whenever it was

you think it was um if

if Adam and Eve's transgression is the

explanation for why humans have a sinful

nature and act upon sin

then why did Eve act upon the sin before

the fall had happened.

Mhm.

Eve must have had a proclivity to sin in

order to in order to betray God in the

first place. And so I don't think it

suffices to say that the explanation for

why we have human beings with a

proclivity to sin like Adolf Hitler

is because of the fool if the fool is a

result of a proclivity to sin from Eve.

The

well the nature of freedom in my

understanding my view is that it can

initiate things. Okay? You don't have to

have in a certain sense deterministic

element in your in your soul that forces

you to act a certain way. Why did Adam

and Eve Eve in this case act the way she

did? Because she was capable of

initiating a free action free action in

terms of rebellion. Okay, that's the

nature of freedom. Okay, I can't get

into her mind. And I think sometimes

asking questions like this, why did she

under those circumstances do what she

did? I can't answer that. Do you think

she she did something immoral?

Yeah, she disobeyed God.

And what did she eat from the tree

of the

I'm not sure.

She ate from the tree of the knowledge

of good and evil of good and evil. So

she ate from the tree of the knowledge

of good and evil implying that before

she ate of it, she didn't have a

knowledge of good and evil. How could

she have done something immoral before

she ate it?

Can I ask you a question? Hold on. No, I

this goes to a contradiction of my view.

So I just need to clarify this.

You understand what I'm saying? Right.

Like

Yeah, I understand. I'm entirely sure.

If she hasn't eaten from the tree of the

knowledge of good and evil, she must

know good and evil. So how does she know

that it's evil if she hadn't yet eaten

from the knowledge of good and evil?

Because the knowledge of good and the

word knowledge often times in the Hebrew

is talking about experience. Okay? It is

not talking about mental awareness.

Okay? She wouldn't have been she

wouldn't have not been able to even

understand the command not to do

something if she didn't have those moral

categories. I think that's part of the

image of God in man. Consequently, she

knew she ought not do it, but she still

chose, for whatever reason, to do that.

And that act of disobedience created a

big mess.

What that means is that the fool does

not explain the proclivity to sin

because Eve already had it. It does not

explain the existence of evil because

knowledge of that already existed before

she committed the fall. It also doesn't

explain the origin of suffering because

of course Eve's punishment for eating

from the tree of

Well, you talk about suffering prior to

human beings in animals. I'm talking

about suffering in human beings.

Does it does it does explain the fall of

man because human beings made a choice

that they could they they could have

made differently but they didn't and

their rebellion against God. It had a

consequence

and this is why the rest of the world

has unfolded the way it has why there is

suffering evil in the world. uh a

naturalistic explanation can explain oh

suffering before suffering a after but

you've been very careful to make it

clear that there's no moral

ramifications to this at all. It seems

most people are pretty aware that there

are moral ramifications. So if your

world view does not have a way of making

sense or moral intuitions about

suffering even animal suffering it's not

an adequate worldview.

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Alex, you're How do you categorize your

belief or lack of belief? Are you

atheist agnostic religious?

Agnostic is probably the best the best

term. And how do you define the word

agnostic?

It means that I I don't I don't know. I

think that a lot of religious language

escapes us. And I'm also not entirely

sure always what what people are exactly

talking about.

So if I ask you the question, how did um

how did life come to be on the earth?

What would your answer to that be?

Oh, I have no idea.

Okay.

Of course, I have no idea.

And how does someone who is agnostic

create a really meaningful life in your

perspective? Well, I don't know how

how

somebody else might do that because

because crucially I mean we we talked

about this earlier when we talked about

like um

we had this brief interlude where you

were sort of saying meaning for humans

and meaning for individuals and the

reason I make that distinction is

because if you consider the way that

take like scientific progress right from

Galileo's time to today the idea is that

there are some kind of scientific

innovations and then you have a child

and you teach that child the latest

science and then that child will build

upon it and teach their children the

latest and they'll build and so as

generations go on the starting point for

each individual human is like further

along right so you can have a child

who's like 12 now and knows calculus you

know what I mean

and with successive generations the

starting point for each individual is

like further along the path of discovery

with like meaning and existential

concerns it doesn't work like that it

resets every single time it's not

something you can't figure out like how

to live your meaningful life and

experience meaning and come to some kind

of spiritual enlightenment and then

teach that to your children and that's

then their starting point for them it

resets it's new so I think that every

individual has to do it on their own for

themselves right and we're all doing

that together as it were going around

the world to the way that I'm

approaching this we were going to talk

about consciousness which we didn't and

perhaps it's a good job that we didn't

because it's it's just such a big topic

but my views on consciousness are

crucial to my

uh

to my sense of sort of what it's all

about as it were because the greatest

mystery that we are confronted with

every single day if you just take a

moment to remember it is that we are

conscious is that we are experiencing

things from a firsterson perspective

that I have thoughts which are

inaccessible to you and you have

thoughts which are inaccessible to me

it's extremely strange so there's a view

that I'm quite attracted to uh in the

philosophy of mind called pan psychism

which literally means sort of like the

view that consciousness is everywhere or

in everything. It's not it doesn't mean

that everything is conscious. It doesn't

mean this pen is conscious. What it

means is that the stuff that the

universe is made out of so the

fundamental matter of the universe has

at least mental properties or might be

mental properties because when you say

for example you know we're in a world of

like molecules in motion right

I understand that sentiment but if you

ask a scientist what is stuff actually

made out of

ultimately speaking they will not be

able to tell you

for you personally what makes your life

full of purpose and meaning

I can't just jump I can just jump there

but it won't make much sense because

what I would say is something like a

recognition of the of the illusion of

divisible selves which doesn't make a

ton of sense

I can explain

unless you unless you lay the groundwork

which can be can be explained in many

different ways and in fact is something

which most uh like the Vic tradition

it's one of the reasons I'm so attracted

to it and particularly the the Aanishads

is because they seem to embody this idea

they they they're constantly banging on

about how the individual self the

individuated

person is an illusion and there is one

ultimate self. They call it Ant-Man. Um,

but are you going to have kids?

I don't know.

Do you want to have kids?

I hope so. Yeah.

So, you do want to have kids?

Oh yeah.

Why?

I'm not sure.

I don't know.

I It just feels It feels as though I've

got It's a bit like asking, you know,

there's a there's a literal explanation.

If If you ask me, "Am I going to have

dinner today?" I'll say, "Yes." You say,

"Why?" I could say, "Well, because I'm

hungry." But if you ask me like but but

like why like why why do you care about

being hungry? Why do you care about

satisfying it? I

well I would say I'm agnostic and I'd

say I want to have kids cuz I think it

will bring a lot of joy to my life. I

think I'll enjoy the challenge. It's

proven to be

That's for your sake.

Yes.

So it's not for their sake.

I think everything kind of immoral to

No no no no. I think everything everyone

does at some you can look at the

neurological level is for their sake.

The reason why people why Dr. UK works

on that ward and saves the life. It's

ultimately because it's

so then

in a in a way I agree with you but if if

it is true that there is this sort of

thing called consciousness that the

universe is made out of and brains are

kind of complex organizations of

consciousness then when you ask me like

you know why what's wrong with harming

another person on this on this worldview

on this materialistic worldview well I

think the material of the universe is

consciousness and I think that when I

harm someone else it could literally in

a fundamental sense be be a case of self

harm by by the way can Can I just say

because it sounds a little bit insane um

without the space to explain the pansy

worldview it sounds absolutely mental

but there are some there are some really

interesting clues here can I give you

one clue this is really really

fascinating about the fact that the

brain as Aldis Huxley said it was a tool

focusing the mind Huxley writes in the

in the doors of perception essential

reading to anybody interested in

consciousness by the way um Aldis Huxley

in the 20th century takes a psychedelic

drug and he writes about his experience

and he writes about it beautifully and

one of the things he realizes is that

his mind has been opened and he thinks

okay well if my mind has been opened

during this experience then that means

that in normal waking hours something

must be closing my mind what could be

closing my mind answer the brain he

concludes that the brain is a tool for

focusing the mind so the psychedelic

experience this is before we've done any

scientific experiments on this you can

scan people's brains in like an FM MRI

scanner, right? Okay. So, when you take

a psychedelic drug, your experience just

blows up, right? You start seeing colors

you didn't know existed. You start

experiencing things as if they were new.

It's like the experience is

unimaginable. So, we've taken people and

we've measured their brain activity and

their and their brain activity is at a

certain level. And then you give them a

psychedelic drug and you put them in the

MRI scanner and their brain activity

goes

down.

brain activity goes down as the mental

experience expands and goes up which for

the person who experiences the

psychedelic drug they will report this

as a feeling that they just get from the

experience. the scientist who measures

the brain activity, the sages writing

the the aananishads, the Buddhist monk

after a series of long meditation will

all say the same thing which is that in

some inexplicable way consciousness is

more foundational than the brain is and

the brain is focusing consciousness and

in some sense that means that our

individuated selves are essentially

illusory. I'm gonna do my best

in the same way the distinction between

objects are a loser

to support what you're saying. I I

totally empathize with having fallen

into this mistake of invoking karma and

not having the bandwidth to explain what

I mean opening myself up to

misinterpretation. That's also why I

completely understand what you said a

moment ago, which is

so so I think the funny thing about this

is

if we look at the quantification of

meaning,

I think everything that I said about

self-determination theory, you know,

make choices in life. Doesn't matter

what they are. We get so caught up about

making the right choice. Where does the

concept of right or wrong come from? It

comes from like the social conditioning

around us. When I was 9 years old, my

grandmother was like, "Oh, you're going

to be great doctor one day. Great

doctor, great doctor, great doctor." And

so I went to medical school. I was

premed and I promptly failed out because

the reason I wanted to be a doctor is

because I thought it was going to be

cool and I was going to go to Harvard,

by the way. I was going to be the best

doctor, not just a doctor. And that

didn't really align with my motivational

system at all. It was coming from the

ego. And so I kind of failed out and

then seven years later started med

school a few years later at that wound

up ironically training at Harvard and

being faculty there. And so going back

to karma for a second, I I I share this

example because a lot of times when we

look at things that we think are bad and

I'm not saying that cancer applies here

clearly, but this is what the meaning

making, the practical functional work of

when someone comes into my office who

was the result who was sexually abused

or something like that. How do we help

that person? We make meaning. So for me,

this was I used to think there that

there's no scenario in which a 2.5 GPA

is better than a 4.0 GPA. that in school

getting Fs is in no way better than

getting A's. Now years later I realize

that all of those experiences

of suffering, of struggling, of having

no meaning in life, playing video games

for 20 hours a day, joining a fraternity

when I was a freshman, which is lots of

great times, you know, made me the

person that I am. And though even if you

look at the brand of Dr. K, the whole

point was I was a college dropout and

then ended up as faculty at Harvard

Medical School. Amazing, right? So in

this context that a lot of times that if

we sort of the more we are zoomed into

our life, the less we will see this

broader perspective. And this is really

fascinating if you look at the work of

Victor Frankle because Vic Victor

Frankle was a neurologist,

went through the Holocaust, became a

psychologist, and then he sort of it

literally his work is something called

logootherapy, which is how do we

consistently help people make meaning in

life? And he designed a system of

therapy. And the first part of it is

de-individuation.

Is the ability of zooming out from your

thing. When someone feels like my life

is falling apart, there's no point

anymore. Why? Because I just got dumped

and she's never going to talk to me

again.

Zoom out a little bit. This is not the

end of the world. Your life is bigger

than this one thing. So the more that we

zoom out from a mechanistic perspective,

the more meaning we find in life. And

what is the ultimate zooming out?

Relationship with God. because now we're

way out here, right? This isn't about

you. This isn't about someone dying of

cancer. This is about something that

goes way bigger than you. So, what I

would say is you can do all the

scientific stuff. It'll get you to 8 out

of 10, maybe nine out of 10. But, and

this is what's so crazy, the scientific

stuff I am incredibly confident I can

defend.

I can point to studies. We can talk

about psychedelics, the default mode

network, self-determination theory, logo

therapy. There are tons of studies,

radical acceptance, dialectical

behavioral therapy, all of these things,

acceptance and commitment therapy, all

of these things have to do with making

meaning in the world. But if you really

want to find that meaning, you keep on

asking this question. I mean, you

selected that question because you're

looking for it, right? And you won't let

him get away with some philosophical

explanation. You're like, "No, you tell

me when you wake up. Where is it? Show

me where it is. Show me how to get it."

because you don't understand his

because you've never had a direct

experience of mine. And so you're like,

"Bro, you don't know God. How do you

find it?" The desperation of like, "No,

no, no slipping away, Alex. No random

stories and ending up in a not random,

sorry. No stories that end up in a

delightful way, right? So how do you

find that that last chunk that last way

that last step of the way there is

through the direct experience of

Brahman.

So when he says pan psychism in the

Hindu system we believe that

consciousness is the foundational

element of the universe.

Atman is Brahman.

Atman is not Brah well sort of yes and

no. Atman is individual soul. Brahman is

the cosmic soul. The cosmic

consciousness that the fundamental

thing that is out there is transcendent.

And having a relationship that with that

thing is how we get meaning. This is how

we get a nine out of 10 or a 10 out of

10 meaning because this guy has done

something where he had this experience

where he's been talking to God but one

day someone answered the phone

and when you have that transcendent

experience when you have this direct

experience of the Brahman and this is

why I've been avoiding saying it because

it's completely undefensible

it is what I believe is philosophically

true it is what I believe is absolutely

true

and it is not transmissible it can only

be witnessed.

Exactly. That's that's the most

important point is that and it's why I

say that this is something that

everybody has to start a fresh because

if there is an answer to this question,

it is something that you

that you cannot syllogize. By the way,

this isn't just some like you know Hindu

thing like Christians say the same thing

about their religious experiences. The

the ineffable quality William James

famously tried to identify the

characteristic aspects of religious

experience and one of the most important

was the ineffability. the inability to

explain. That's what that means. Like

the inability to put into words and to

explain and to say what it's like. And

interestingly, some of my favorite

examples of this throughout history have

been some of the most important

Christian thinkers of all time who have

essentially abandoned the project of

communicating ideas to other people. I

mentioned Bla1 Pascal earlier. He

famously had his night of fire where he

has a religious experience and he's one

of the greatest writers in Christian

history. And he has this experience of

God and he writes in his diary and later

has it etched into his jacket fire. He

writes not the God of the philosophers,

the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,

the God of Jacob because he realizes

that he's experienced something which is

not this abstract first cause design of

the universe. It's not that. It's

something more deeply personal. Thomas

Aquinus, undoubtedly the greatest

metaphysician of Christian history,

writes the Suma Theologica, which is to

this day one of the most celebrated

works of Christian metaphysics, trying

to, you know, explain and analyze the

nature of God. It's where we get his

famous five ways of showing the

existence of God and all of this kind of

stuff. And it's it's really long and

still still studied in depth to this

day. He left it unfinished

when he died. Why? because one day he

was performing the Eucharist and he had

a religious experience. He believed that

he experienced the presence of God and

he stopped writing it and he was he was

practically begged by a friend and

patron like Thomas you've you've you've

got to you've got to finish the book and

he wrote back and said I can write no

more after what I've seen. It's like

straw compared to the experience I've

had. So quite clearly when you look at

people who actually report the stuff

that people want which is the certainty

the experience where they say I've I've

met God and I know what that feels like

the number one characteristic of such

experiences is that they are not

transmissible is that you cannot write

it down and give that experience to

somebody else.

So here's the beautiful thing you can't

down you can't write down the experience

but you can absolutely write down the

process

of finding that experience. Yes.

So I'm with you. That is an individual

journey.

And I think this is where something

really interesting. I don't know if this

is like accurate or not, but I sort of

noticed that all of our most common

religions have spiritual traditions that

are not necessarily the same as the

religion.

Yeah.

So in Hinduism, it's really interesting

because we have priests and then we have

swamies. A priest is not a yogi. So the

person who does the practice of the

religion is not the same as the person

who sits in the Himalayas and meditates

for 12 hours a day. And even if we look

at like Christianity, you know, I I

know. So I I read a Gnostic text for the

first time,

which

um Thunder Perfect Mind.

Mhm.

And what I realized is, oh, I know

exactly what this is. I I I read some

stuff about it and people were like, oh,

it's talking about this. I'm like, no,

it's not. Thunderfect Mind is a series

of meditation techniques. That's what it

is, right? that that's what it's a

series of meditations and if you do

these meditations and there's all kinds

of stuff and I I think you know Sufiism

was there cabala is there in Judaism

there's the gnostic tradition every

religion has this spiritual component

which sometimes comes down to going to

church witnessing God but you know the

whole thing is like you got to have

fingers crossed which is part part of

the way why why it's designed because

there's no definitive way to do it you

have to have God's grace to get it

there's a certain amount of surrender.

There's a certain amount of ego that you

have to get rid of in order to open

yourself up to God. But there are a

series of practices that you can do that

will cultivate

the right setting for God to pick up the

phone.

These are things that we will sort of

use psychedelics.

There's a very good evidence for the use

of psychedelics. I was about to say

yeah. So psychedelics will do this kind

of thing where it it it takes you to

that state to a certain degree, but

there's way way way further to go than

what psychedelics can do. I I would say

psychedelics take you to a helicopter to

about 6,000 ft. You can go to 20,000 ft,

30,000 ft. Have experiences of Brahman.

And this is where all of these like

weird esoteric practices from the the

science of yoga kind of like now that we

have so much like mc mindfulness

everywhere where everyone's got apps and

stuff like that. We've lost a lot of the

most important stuff that if you want to

have a transcendent experience, there

are things you have to do with your

diet. There are things that you have to

do with your respiratory rate. You have

to set up your body's capacity to handle

metabolic acidosis because Yeah.

And you've done this yourself.

I will not answer that question.

You can you can answer the question

whether you've done it or not.

I can I will not.

Why?

Uh the cost to my shaky is too high.

So I I asked you this question before.

Do you remember?

What did I say?

You told me that you have seen things

and gone to a place. But when I asked

you what you saw, you told me you

wouldn't tell me.

Yeah.

But you're happy to say that you have

done this. No, I didn't say that. I've

done this.

That's what you said to me last time.

Oh, yeah. Well, maybe I made a mistake.

I mean, sort of. So, if that's what I

said last time, that's my answer then.

My answer today is I will not talk. I

will not answer that question.

And the reason you won't answer the

question is because

the depletion of the shaky is too high.

And what does that mean?

Okay. So,

okay. So,

it sounds like I'm not locked out the

house. Like, I can't

There are many reasons, but Okay. So,

pansychism. There's this idea that

there's this weird collective

consciousness. That's the basic unit. I

think we can easily call it God. A

relationship with that thing. So I'm

down here. It's up there. So the key

thing is if we look at psychedelic

usage, if we look at dark night of the

soul, if we look at these moments of

rapture where you go into church and one

of two things is happening, either your

psychological defense mechanisms are

creating the ultimate cope and you're

saying now I'm healed even though you're

not. or you actually have a direct

experience of God and you are

transformed. What is the nature of that

transformation? It is the loss of ego.

That is the most conserved thing. We

surrender before God. Before God, we are

nothing. Right? Doesn't matter which

religion you talk to. This is all this

is where I think that there's like

evidence of truth with a capital T

because human beings from all over the

planet have done these explorations

using the technology of our mind and our

consciousness and we arrive at very

similar conclusions. So the beautiful

thing is that when so when our ego is

active in the most powerful way it

becomes narcissism also becomes things

like depression still actually a very

ego I'm terrible I'm pathetic I'm

worthless the world would be better off

without me the focus is on me me it's

hyperactive default mode network

so in order to connect to the divine you

need to dissolve your ego as much as

possible

so the reason you won't tell me is

because If I say it, my ego will

increase.

You also will not what what will happen

is you'll get an idea of it. Right? The

more I talk about it, the more that your

mind will create a map without

experience. So I do not discuss my

experiences in meditation. What I will

absolutely say though and this is what I

love about it. Alex said this is the one

thing we cannot stand on the shoulders

of giants. You have to walk this whole

journey by yourself. No one else can

walk it for you.

So, I won't tell you how far I've gone.

Maybe I'm a maybe I'm just, you know,

talking Who knows? But what I will

tell you is that you don't need the

answer from me. Why are you asking me?

Because you want to know. Then you walk

it.

If you see the Buddha, kill him. That's

the meaning of this or the one

interpretive meaning of this of this

Buddhist Cohen is is stop looking for

gurus and start looking inside yourself.

Do you think I could then sit here and

say what your experience is not true?

And I

absolutely.

Yeah,

of course. And I could and I could pick

it apart and stuff like that.

Absolutely. So So this is the thing that

I

Is there any value in that?

From what?

For me doing that to you.

Of course, there's value for you if you

wanted to. If you want to pick me apart,

if you want to continue to live the life

that you you live, if you want to

continue to get five out of 10 meaning

cuz you've accomplished a lot, if accomp

you have a a lot of stuff. I mean, so

many videos that you have left, so many

people that you help, millions of people

across the globe,

right? I say this because that's what's

happening here.

What

that Alex is picking apart.

Fine. So, so I have no problem with

picking things apart. If you want to

pick things apart, pick things apart.

But be very clear about what picking

things apart does.

What does it do?

So, it's it's a great question. I have a

different way of answering it.

So, when I listen to philosophers like

these guys were just in it about evil

and if if if evil was created when Eve

ate the apple, was she evil when she

made the apple? Right? It's so great.

It's picking things apart. So, it's so

interesting because as a psychiatrist,

my training is actually the exact

opposite. What I've trained myself to do

is to twist and turn in mental

gymnastics to understand somebody else's

view. When a patient walks into my

office and they say, "I'm suicidal." I

don't want to pick their view apart. No,

you have so much to live for. It doesn't

work. I try to understand them. So,

there is value to picking things apart

in terms of political debate, in terms

of you're arguing with your wife whether

you should buy a car or lease a car.

There are all kinds of values to picking

things apart. But the question is, what

do you want? Now, I think if you take

Alex's road, which I think is going to

change real quick, if it hasn't,

why?

Be honest.

I think he he's going to go down the

road of Nosis if he isn't already.

Nosis?

What what is Nosis?

Knowledge,

Alex.

Nosis is a it's a Greek term. Nosis

means knowledge. Um, but it's attached

to,

I guess, a kind of an ancient school of

philosophy which believes that uh truth

is is obtained from looking inward.

Do you mean narcissism?

No, not narcissism. So, I I think if if

you want to, Alex, it's not a

philosophy. It's a practice. But what

what do you mean when you say I mean

Stephen asked you said I'm going to go

down a

I think you got to walk down the Gnostic

road dude.

Would you tell us what you you didn't

just say you said you thought I was

going to do that. What what what does it

mean

that I think you're going to do that or

the the path of

what is the thing that you think I'm

going to

Yeah. I think you're going to have to

start practicing Gnostic stuff.

What's Gnostic stuff?

What does that mean?

So Thunder Perfect Mind is a series of

meditations. If you look at that and you

do what it tells you to do, you will

understand what the Gnostics understood.

You have to walk that path that they

walked. But doing so does not involve

the philosophy of Nosis,

right? That the part of Nosis, I don't

know what the philosophical

perspective, but the Gnostics were

practitioners as far as I understand. I

read one Gnostic text and I was like,

"Oh, this is like a this is like a

meditation."

So, what is it that makes you think? Why

do you look at me and say that's

I mean you've read one gnostic text.

I have I have an intuition.

So but I wonder what what you mean.

It's not explainable.

But but you have an intuition

based on pattern recognition.

Sure.

That an individual like Alex

I don't know. No not pattern

recognition. This is indefensible.

Okay.

I get told a lot by a lot of different

people that I'm quite clearly on a

particular road. Christians. Christians

very often say that it seems as though

I'm on the verge of Christian conversion

and I think that's often just a result

of having nice conversations with them

where I don't jump down their throat and

say actually there's some uh there's

some truth in this or actually there are

some good arguments for the resurrection

of Jesus or this kind of stuff and

suddenly I have people saying you know

he's so close

is that kind of annoying clearly a man

searching for meaning

something about us what nosis is you

said it's a series of practices but like

what so is you know so is vegetarianism

so like

so I I think closest from what reading

one text I'm not anostic expert

okay

so there's a set of practices that if

you do them have a high probabilistic

chance of having a direct experience of

God

like what

so Mchanting is a simple example but

there are things that you can do to

increase the likelihood of having a

transcendent experience of mch chanting

so for example if you adopt siddhasan so

siddhasan is a particular yoga posture

where um your left heel is placed

against the perennium of your body. So

the perennium is the the taint the area

between the anus and the scrotum. So if

you also do certain bron practices, so

these will do things that induce a very

very very low respiratory rate. And one

of the things that we know about

transcendental experiences is that high

levels of CO2 tend to make actually we

don't know this but this is kind of the

best hypothesis that I've read that I

happen to think is true that if we alter

the neurons of our brain chemistry we

can evoke transcendental experiences. So

if you look at some of these esoteric

traditions, what'll happen is is you

have all of these different practices

and as you do these practices, I think

you are very clearly refining your

physiology and your neurology to induce

certain states. And let's remember that

psychedelics don't create anything.

Yes,

psychedelics simply activate the

circuitry that is already there

or deactivate. Huh? Or deactivate

or deactivate, right?

But yeah, that's that's a crucial point

to make.

I'd love to understand why you think

he's going to go down that path.

Let's call it intuition.

But I I need something a little bit more

than that. So you're saying

Okay. So I'll give you more. So in um

the system of So can I answer truthfully

or defensively? Truthfully, which ones

do you guys want?

Truthfully,

so in the system of condundalini yoga,

there are seven chakras. So 21 years ago

20 almost 22 I went to a teacher who

taught me the first of a condalini

practice which is based on the agna

chakra. So the agna chakra is your third

eye chakra and gives you it is the

chakra that governs understanding. So if

you want to understand things

then chakra practices are the right

thing to do. So many years ago, back in

a former life when I was uh still an

academic at at Harvard, I was trying to

develop an evidence-based meditation

program for different diagnosis. And

part of what I leaned into and initial

results were good, but never really, you

know, then I started doing this. But so

as as one example, there's this chakra

called the muladhara chakra, which is

our root chakra. So the mooladhara

chakra governs our primal impulses in

life. So I looked at my patients with

addictions and I was like okay these

people have a problem with impulse

control and they want something and they

can't restrain themselves from getting

it. So I wondered can I teach them

mooladharak chakra practices to sort of

basically like reduce their flow of

wanting the basic things and I found

that that was efficacious. Now

meditation works for addictions then but

the question is can we do a specific

meditation for a specific mental

illness. So there are there's one study

for example that looks at anahhat or

heart chakra meditation specifically for

depression because it cultivates like

compassion and self-love and stuff like

that and they found it's a very small

study hopefully the the we'll do more

research in this but they found that the

effect was superior to other forms of

meditation. So hypothetically,

theoretically, there are specific

meditation practices which work in

different ways and I teach a lot of this

stuff in in Dr. K's guide to meditation

and stuff. But so there are these

specific practices. So I specifically

did a a practice based on agna chakra

stuff like intuition, right? So then

like something weird happens which is

when I sit with people, I have

intuitions about them. Now is this real?

Is this fake? is a delusional I don't

know. You could argue that I'm just a

really good psychiatrist with really

good cold reading, right? But I this is

a I I don't So if you want to know the

real answer, like I'm not a great

psychiatrist. People think I'm so

brilliant as I'm not. I'm cheating.

I'm using a a layer of information that

I don't think most people have access

to, which I know is a completely

undefensible claim. Except

if you do agna chakra practices too, you

will see what I'm talking about.

Alex, if I were to ask you that if

someone's listening now and they feel

lost in their life, is there any advice

that you could give them

or a simple action that they could take

that would help them to find

to remove the feeling of feeling lost in

life. Hm.

It's always difficult because it's such

an individual thing that it's difficult

to give uh advice

writ large. Um also because

I'm no paradigm of meaning and purpose

in life and not some fountain of wisdom

from which people can drink. Um so I

wouldn't presume to do so. But if a

friend, so if they came to me as I'm the

guy on the camera with the microphones

and stuff, so what do I do? I I would

say

probably the reason a lot of people

click this video.

Yeah. I I would say that firstly stop

doing that. Like don't stop clicking the

video. Everybody like and subscribe. But

but stop thinking

you're going to find

some kind of teacher or guru who is

going to give you the answer. Instead,

the most valuable form of person to

listen to, I think, and I found is

somebody who's quite clearly also trying

to do the same thing. There are people

out there who think they've achieved

certain things. They've they found

meaning. They've understood the truth

and you can learn a lot from them trying

to explain their worldview to them. Um I

don't claim to be such a person. So the

only thing I can do is say like I'm

actually doing this at the same time as

you. So I can't give you advice from

experience. I can't say here's what to

do to find meaning. Here's what I did.

What I can say is here are some things

that I'm trying. For example, I'm really

interested by this question of

consciousness and what it means to say

that reality is fundamentally mental and

that we've made a mistake in thinking

that complexity produces consciousness

and rather complexity allows

consciousness to do particular things

like memory and emotion and stuff like

that. That's really exciting. And there

are some implications of seeing the

world in that way. Implications about

the the unity of experience.

But you're saying pursue answers.

Yes, pursue answers. But also try to try

to try to experience it as you get like

I I kind of it depends who it is and I

don't like to say on camera exactly but

psychedelics can be really really useful

for a lot of people. They can if if you

are

not in the right mindset as they say if

you're a bit disintegrated if if like it

can the reason I don't like to advise it

is because it can bring about a very bad

experience for a lot of people.

But you're saying within the right

certain setting

something like that might be what I'd

recommend. It depends who I'm talking

to. But there are friends in my life,

for example, who I would say don't take

psychedelics. You know, I'd like I from

from from my experience, I just don't

think it seems like the right thing to

do. But there are other friends who I

would say if you did in the right

circumstance, I think this could this

could blow open.

Would you categorize yourself as being

lost and directionless?

To some degree, of course. Yeah. To to

to some degree, everybody is. Um lost.

Lost is is quite a heavy word. Like when

people say, "I'm lost." By volunteering

that information, they they tend to be

implying that it's a strong enough

feeling that they're troubled by it and

want to make it known. Are you happy?

That's why people say it. But when when

you ask,

well, there are different questions

here, right? Like am I happy right now?

Sure. Like tomorrow, maybe across life.

If you had to rate your contentment in

life out of 10, I'll do the same.

It's not it's not a very easy thing to

quantify. No, but I give do you think

but I asked I've asked hundreds of

people 400 people this question or

everyone on the podcast has been I asked

Dr. K this question and let me just

finish this train of thought. So I could

say to you for example yeah I'm like a

five out of 10 contentment.

Is that is that true?

Like maybe yeah

let's I'll give you a simple way to

quantify.

I I literally can't quantify and the

reason I'll give you a way to quantify.

I'll give you the the yard stick. So if

you think about how old are you?

26.

26. So you think about those 26 years.

Mhm. Has there been months of your life

where consistently you've felt really

fulfilled and positive for month, you

know, weeks, months in a row?

Um,

probably. Yeah, I think so.

Memory memory's difficult to

When was the last time for a full month,

for a full 30 days, you felt

really good on average?

Out of 10, what what counts?

Really good on average.

I don't know. It might have been usually

when I have some kind of project. I as I

said I think meaning is is intimately

tied up to having a task to fulfill. So

when I've been touring for the purpose

of filming podcasts and doing talks and

stuff like I feel pretty content because

I wake up and I know what my task is for

the day and I get it done. So on a on

like a subjective psychological level

those are the probably the times when I

wake up with the most let's say drive

the feeling that I've got a task to

fulfill. And are there days where you

feel are there there weeks sometimes or

months where you feel the opposite which

might be characterized in a clinical

context as depression?

Of course. That's interesting.

Can I ask why you you were interested in

my in in my answers to those question?

I was trying to see how similar we we

are.

That's really it. Cuz we're both we both

sit in the same agnostic camp,

but actually we're we're very very

different

um in terms of our I wake up in the

morning and I wake up this morning and

I'm very happy and I feel very very

driven and I couldn't wait. I was

actually the night before I couldn't

wake up. I was annoyed I had to sleep

because I couldn't wait to get up in the

morning. And that's typically my

experience. I'm like, I can't wait to

get the sleep done with because I can't

wait to get back to life.

So, what's it all for?

I don't really This sounds crazy. And it

also somewhat links to what you're

saying about at the very beginning about

people being really obsessed with not

dying. I don't really care. I'm just

having a great time.

But that's and I love having these

conversations because I get to I get to

learn more about different people's

strategies to having a great time and to

making their lives more meaningful and

more exciting on a daily basis. But is

that that sounds quite nihilistic in a

way because it you sound like Cohellet

in the book of Ecclesiastes who's sort

of eating and drinking and being merry

who one day might look at it and realize

that although you feel in the moment

this is all very good it's it's all he

and realize that there needs to be

something more and I wonder if the same

thing will happen if the if the north

star that you have for your life and

your projects and your career is that

you just sort of feel good while you're

doing it

you

and why isn't that good enough reason

because in your presumption there

because someday I might get hit by this

bus of realizing that it was worth

nothing but for the for the 70 years up

until I die.

Yeah.

I'm going to wake up in the morning,

feel good. I'm going to love spending

time with my girlfriend and my dog.

Mhm.

And whatever neurochemicals in my brain

are going to reinforce me to keep doing

that. And

does it bring meaning?

Yeah.

What does that mean to you? Because

because and the reason I asked that is

because conceivably you can imagine

someone who's happy but their life isn't

meaningful and you can imagine someone

who's suffering but their life is

meaningful like a victim of the

Holocaust or something right

parents as well.

And so you've got the happiness part but

you also think that you've got sort of

meaning and where's the what is that

meaning and where's that coming from?

So meaning for me is something that I

create by the decisions that I take and

this might go down to what you were

saying about having certain tendencies.

I have certain tendencies. I have nature

and nurture acting against me to make

certain things feel meaningful to me.

Um, and one of those things is this

pursuit of more information. I do it

when you go and I get some free time

tonight. I'll be on YouTube learning

about humanoid robots or I might stumble

across a video, one of your videos,

which I've watched many times and I've

watched your videos many times and I've

watched your videos many times. Not

because I necessarily believe I'm ever

going to get to the final answer,

because it's the the the doing itself

that I find so enjoyable. And actually,

I could kind of relate to the guy that

knows the world's going to end but

writes the book.

Yeah.

Because it's the it's the writing of the

book that I love.

So here here's what I think is

beautiful. So I think if you guys go

back and you watch this, every

scientific principle is what Steven is

doing. So self-determination theory,

right? So he's self-directed. He

stretches his capacities. He relates to

other people. And I think this is it's

it's a really brilliant example of sort

of like this problem of finding like

meaning with a capital M. And relates to

this kind of idea of, you know, if

you're feeling directionless in life, I

don't know that you need to figure it

out with a capital M. And if we listen

to some of your questions, right, is it

enough for you? And then Stephen's like,

why wouldn't like, you know, why do you

assume that you need? So there's sort of

this very natural like reaction. And

then he's kind of like, "No, I'm

actually pretty content." And I think

that my favorite thing about your answer

is that getting as far as you have, I

think you've got your instinctual answer

of five out of 10 is still correct

because this is as far as you go. And I

think you feel this hunger for like

something else and that thing is going

to be big, right? And I I think that's

that's what maybe Greg can help us out

with, right? Because and I think that's

that's it's a it's a beautiful way of

embodying I think how we find meaning in

life. There's a bunch of psychological

stuff that you can do, but it appears

that doing some of this weird

transcendental like you got to like find

it in sort of this big way.

Mhm.

And I think you're a perfect embodiment

of how far you can go.

Let me offer a clarification based on

the questions you're asking Alex because

I feel in many ways very sympathetic to

Alex as he described his subjective

states. You know, are you happy? Are you

fulfilled? Do you have meaning in your

life? And I guess and I think the

tendency sometimes is to talk to

somebody who is uh very confident of

their understanding of the big picture.

Um and think that everything's going

wonderful for them. You know, you look

at their life say, "Well, everything is

just great. Are you happy? I'm happy all

the time. I have the truth kind of

thing." But that's not exactly how it

works.

I'm fully convinced of the truth of the

Christian worldview, God's existence,

Jesus, all the things that relate to

that human beings made in the image of

God. I think it's the best explanation

all things considered for the way things

are. Nevertheless, I'm still a fallen

human being learning to be virtuous with

God's help. I am still living in a world

that is fallen and broken and I have to

live with all the contingencies of a

fallen world. So, if you were to ask me

the question that you asked Alex, I

would have the same difficulty answering

that Alex did because it's so varated

one's life. When I wake up in the

morning, do you feel good? Sometimes,

sometimes not. Am I confident that no

matter what happens in my life, the

good, the bad, whatever, that there is a

foundation there that gives me

stability? Yes. Because I think that

foundation, God, eternal mind exists and

I'm in proper relationship with him. But

part of the reality is this is a veil of

tears. You know, how did Job Job put it?

Something about the uh about the sparks

flying upward. You know, it's like life

is difficult. Uh actually I like the

saying life is hard and then you die.

You know it gives me a perspective on

things. Jesus himself said in this world

you'll have tribulation. Are you happy?

That's the experience. But the

underlying is be of good cheer. Jesus

said because I have overcome the world.

Are you happy?

Well, we're back to that question again

how you characterize it. You said

earlier on that you felt there was a

certain path that Alex was going to go

down, but Greg didn't

going to go going to go down.

Should or something.

It's ready for him.

Okay. It's ready for him. But you didn't

say that about Greg.

Yeah.

And so when you look at these two

individuals Yeah.

and you think about contentment and

happiness

and whatever that word is,

can you can you feel with your intuition

that

sort of So first thing is this is where

I know it's sound insane tanking

my brand right now because I used to be

believable I guess but um so first thing

about intuition right if we look at

intuition technically I can't activate

it right when you have an intuition it

comes

it happens

it happens so that's what's so

frustrating about this is everyone

thinks like okay if you do agna chakra

sadhana which is this weird third eye

stuff then you can do this thing I can't

do anything I am before god and when god

chooses to let me know something that's

when I get

Now if I had to answer I think I am not

surprised about the difference in

baseline contentment between these two

people. Right? So if you were to ask why

do I relate to Greg in this way now

whether this is at a conscious level

neurological level whether those whether

there's truly a spiritual level or not

right so am I just reading into him

doing pattern recognition based on what

he says and stuff like that but that's

not what my lived experience of of it is

I know this man has seen God

and it's it's not is it his behavior his

body language his

I mean I don't think so right so so I

I've met some people who who have very

unhappy lives who still have that

foundation of spiritual contentment. And

some people who

have very unhappy I can have unhappy

life with spiritual contentment or

spiritual contentment with a happy life

or B have a great life and have no

spiritual contentment. I think all all

of those variables.

What about me?

That Yeah.

What's your intuition about me?

I think you're getting there way faster.

You've changed from the last time I

talked to you. I I think you're getting

there and I I think you're going to get

there.

Oh, thank God. Where am I going to go?

There being contentment, there being

what?

There. So, so this is this there is it's

not something that can be put into

words. I'm just going to call it there.

If someone's listening right now and

they feel stuck in their life, which is

what I asked Alex, what is something

that they can do tomorrow, a small step

that they can take to become unstuck in

your worldview?

Yeah. So I I would start by sort you

know Alex offered a beautiful answer and

I I think he kind of mentioned that I

wouldn't be arrogant enough to give

people things because you know give

people an answer because everyone's an

individual and stuff like that and and

so the funny thing is I I have a super

concrete answer. I think the difference

in sort of the way that I perceive it is

I don't think you have to be someone

great to do that. And that's I think

precisely what sort of science tells us,

right? like is that you don't have to be

some enlightened being and I don't claim

to be that I'm not a guru or anything

like that you know so I I think it

starts with understanding first and

foremost that purpose

how do you know whether you have purpose

something within you tells you right you

can have everyone in the rest of the

world telling you oh you're doing great

you're going to get married in a month

you know there's a baby on the way you

have a career you have all this stuff

you should feel fulfilled so the first

thing to understand is it is an internal

feeling and then the question becomes

how do we create how do we find that

feeling? So this is where things that

get in the way at the top of the list

right now which Alex alluded to is

technology. So unless you can feel what

is going on inside you, you will never

feel purpose. What are the things that

get in the way of feeling? So when you

feel bad, what do you reach for? Right?

How do you manage those negative

feelings? And it's not about making the

feelings go away or not making them go

away. It is simply about stopping the

process of severing yourself. That

process is I I think alexathyia is what

what I kind of refer to it as. That's

colorblindness of your internal

emotional state. Like I have a whole

lecture about it, you know. So, first

thing you have to do is learn how to

feel again. Because if you look at most

people who are mean whose life has no

meaning, what they're actually doing is

trying to create a life that is running

away from bad feelings. So, I don't like

the way I my boss yelled at me. I'm

going to go to the bathroom. I'm going

to pull out Reddit. I'm going to scroll

on it. Whatever. Right? They're running

away from the way that they feel. And

it's not about good or bad, just you

have to reconnect with yourself.

Second thing is focus on your ego and as

best as possible, probably for most

people dissolving parts of your ego. And

ego is anytime you say I am dot dot dot,

it is what's that dot dot dot. So if I

say I'm a doctor, that's part of my ego.

I'm a man, that's part of my ego. So a

lot of times what gets in the way of us

finding purpose is what we believe we

are right so I I may think to myself I

am a doctor I am this or I'm all all

those I'm a loser I'm an incel right so

it's all of these identifications that

get us away from purpose

third thing to do is find your narrative

sense of identity so there's some ego

dissolution practices like shunya

meditation and stuff and then third

thing is we want to develop a story for

ourselves this is when people have

purpose in life. What does that presume?

That presumes that there's a temporal

quality, that there's a directional

quality. Does that make sense? Like

purpose or direction is like literally

moving from A to Z. So there's time and

then there's like a particular distance

that involves going through the most

important emotional experiences of your

life and stringing them together as a

sense of who you are. And then I think

the last most important step is

recognizing that everything that has

happened to you,

I don't know if it's karma, I don't know

if it's the will of God, whatever it has

happened to you, it's made you in this

way, but it does not determine your

future. Your future is determined by how

you act in the now. And this is where I

would lean into I would just go back and

listen to the way that Steven talks

about his life and try to do the same

thing. So try to decide what your make a

choice for today. Stretch your capacity

and try to connect with another person.

The last thing is if all of that stuff

doesn't isn't sufficient or you want

more, I would say engage in some kind of

spiritual practice or go to church.

Both work equally I don't know about

equally well, but I think they're both

options. So do the thing that appeals to

you more.

And the same question for you, Greg. for

someone that's stuck, what do they do

tomorrow to take an action to become

unstuck in in your view?

Well, there's a lot of practical things

that have already been shared that I

think are helpful. So, I have a very

simple suggestion. Okay. Um, I have

represented a particular view of the

Christian worldview. didn't get into a

lot of detail, but a lot of people have

prayed a very simple prayer that has

helped them at whatever junction they're

at trying to figure things out. This

kind of goes to a point that Alex made

earlier and it was a prayer that I turns

out I prayed in 1973. I was in the army

and I was in the middle of nowhere and I

just prayed this prayer and the prayer

was very simple. God, if you're real, in

the way that my brother, the Christian,

was explaining to me, if you're real,

I want to know it. Show yourself to me.

That was it. There was no coconuts

falling from the tree, no lightning or

anything like that. It was just a man

praying. Maybe the first real prayer

that I'd ever prayed. But I do know that

after that, things became more obvious

to me. It's the best way I can explain

it. Though I'm a Christian apologist, I

make the case for the truth of

Christianity. It wasn't any particular

argument in that that persuaded me. It

was more the experiential thing and not

even a pizzazz thing just a deep

awareness that this was true and this

has set my course. Uh since then I there

are a lot of people who prayed that

simple prayer. It's a genuine prayer

that people can pray and I've heard many

people tell me that this is what

happened to them even apart from my

suggestion to it. So if people are

looking for ultimate purpose in their

life, if they're looking for to do

meaningful things, lots of suggestions

on the table. If they're looking to

integrate meaningful things into the

ultimate purpose, I think that's the

prayer they need to pray.

I want to give you an opportunity, Alex,

to um to give us deliver your sort of

closing thoughts and reflections and

and arguments.

Well,

um I want to re-emphasize that

this topic of meaning and and purpose is

difficult to even define, let alone

communicate to another person. I think

it's individual. Even if there is an

objective meaning, even if God exists

and Christianity is true, it's not going

to be enough to just tell somebody about

Christianity, they're going to have to

live it, right? So, it's not going to be

enough to just sit around reading. I

also understand the sort of allergic

reaction some people have to philosophy

and you hinted at it earlier this idea

that philosophy is just

mind games

literally philosophical like mass

debating if you like you know we're just

literally sat like throwing concepts at

each other. Uh but on meaning and

purpose,

you're unlikely to find the best advice

from someone who's never gotten out of

that armchair. And even the person who

has and claims to have experienced it

for themselves and and knows what the

truth is. I think anybody who says to

you with a straight face, I know what

the meaning in life is, is either lying

or will instantly tell you that they're

not going to be able to convey that

information, at least not very easily.

So, it's going to be difficult. And

don't trust anyone who says you can do

it in five easy steps on a podcast or

something because I think we've got a

bit of an endemic of that at the moment.

People sort of

just saying that they've sort of

discovered this this path or this truth.

And if only people would understand that

the Stoics were right all along. Even

though I don't care about any of their

any of their philosophical views, just

their ethical views. I don't even know

what they thought about the nature of

matter and stuff. Doesn't matter that

that's why they thought the way that

they did ethically. you know, just

become a stoic and everything will get

better. Um, but I do recognize some of

that and people saying do just become a

Christian and it will get better too.

Um, it's always got to be a bit on more

nuance than that. So,

Dr. K, your closing thoughts and

arguments on this today's discussion,

you know, to to kind of push back a

little bit against uh what Alex said.

So, I'm I'm with you that there's an

endemic of five easy tips and and you

know, as someone who is guilty of doing

that and what I'll do is I'll I'll see

especially so I I saw a recent study

that showed that 95% of Tik Toks about

ADHD are incorrect.

And so there's there's absolutely an

oversimplification that's going on.

I think at the same time though

we have such an amazing

amount of knowledge as human beings. We

have such amazing access to knowledge

that human beings have. So the human

race has so much knowledge and we have

the greatest amount of access to it. And

so while I don't think it is like as

simple as one of the most shocking

things as a psychiatrist you know who

works with people is how little it takes

to make a big change. Big questions and

big changes don't always need big effort

or big answers. It's it's such an

interesting thing like you know when I

talk to people who struggle with

addiction for 14 years it seems to be a

small thing that just clicks.

And so I I I think the key thing for

people

is don't assume that just because you

have a big problem, it requires a lot of

effort.

And and you know, I remember my daughter

was trying to close a box, right? So

there's like a box and she's trying to

slam the lid, but the lid is not like

oriented correctly. Does that make

sense? So it kind of gets tilted and

then no matter how hard she pushes, it

doesn't close. And so in her mind, this

is a problem that requires pounds and

pounds. I need to be a full-g grown

adult. No, you're just not doing it in

the right way. Right? If if you

understand a little bit how it works, if

you sort of orient yourself properly and

and I do think that I've seen time and

time again, you know, that that in terms

of an individual perspective, if you

feel purposelessness, there's a reason

for that, right? We know that there's

systemic factors. People are going to

church less. People are using technology

more. All of the way that the world has

has been changed affects you once it

crosses the barrier. The world is out

there and then it crosses the barrier

into us and then affects us.

And that if you understand that process

and if you change a couple of things and

sometimes it's amazing how small they

are, right? Like just waking up and

making a decision for yourself, pushing

yourself a little bit more. relatedness

is the hard one because that requires

another human being. But like it's

amazing how much you can do with very

little.

Thank you. And Craig to close off your

closing thoughts and perspectives.

I thought I'd just given them a few

moments ago, but um I guess the

distinction that I I guess I want to

emphasize is when it comes to purpose

and meaning, I think actually meaning

precedes purpose. You have to know who

you are and why you're here, if you're

here for any reason, before the purpose

matches. Now, it turns out that there is

no big picture. It's just you. Then the

purpose is going to reflect your

individual desires at any given time and

pursue that as long as you want. But if

there is a grand purpose, that's the

thing to discover. I'm convinced there

is. And I think this is why we have this

hunger for answering these kinds of

questions. And uh there's a lot of

variables that are involved here. But

there and I mentioned before the things

that stand out for me is we have this

internal sense that I think is there

because we are a spiritual being. People

say, "Well, I'm a religious. I'm

spiritual, but I'm not religious." And I

said, "Of course you're spiritual. God

made you that way so that you could know

him." There is that element. This is

subjective. Okay? I think we're all

aware of it. And then there is objective

things that we can appeal to. You

mentioned earlier the resurrection of

Christ, the existence of the world, the

order that the world is in, the

existence of morality, the existence of

free will, all kinds of other things

that are part of the package of the

Christian worldview that are well

explained by that worldview. And one of

the reasons that I'm a Christian is

because I think it's the all things

considered, it's the best explanation

for the way things are. Not because all

of the questions are answered for me.

Can't you embrace issues that I haven't

thought about that it's a mystery some

of these things but life is filled with

mysteries all right and this seems to be

one mystery the big picture that is

resolved by Christianity by the

Christian understanding of reality I

call it the story of reality

thank you so much for all being here

today it's truly fascinating discussion

and it's it has actually pushed me

forward I shan share how it's pushed me

forward but it's certainly pushed me

forward in a number of ways and it's

helped me to understand you all I'm big

fans of all of yours um you make a lot

of great content on YouTube in various

ways. Alex, I've watched your channel so

many times. I've watched so many of your

videos for so long because you help you

kind of represent one part of my

perspective and curiosity and you're a

very um intelligent, thoughtful,

philosophical

uh master of of playing with ideas and

you've really done your homework. So,

it's fascinating to watch your YouTube

channel. I highly recommend people

that quite the accolade. That's very

kind.

No, but it is.

That will go on the front of my book.

Good. Yeah. Yeah. And your book is on

the way. We're very excited about

one day. Who knows? Who knows when? But

it will come eventually.

We'll keep doing what you're doing

because, you know, you're you're a

vessel for for for people. And um who

knows where that vessel ends up going,

but it's a very we all hope. And thank

you, Dr. K. You're a master of what you

do. And actually, when you talked about

your your chakra, the one the one the

intuition one, I was sat here giggling

because I've never felt so naked in

front of someone in my entire life as I

do in front of you. And I can only

attest to the the great work that you do

as a result of that bizarre intuition. I

think I told you the f I think I told

other people after the first time I met

you that I think you have a magic power

and it's quite unnerving to be around

someone that I feel like has a magic

power. Um I highly recommend people go

and check out your YouTube channel. Um

you've been on the show a few times and

um the response I get out and out and

about in public is profound. So thank

you for coming back again. It's really

really appreciated and thank you Greg.

Thank you for writing these incredible

books. There's actually one here which

is what you ended on called the story of

reality which I think is a great

starting place for people that are

trying to tease out some of the the the

truths in their own life.

Actually, we have a chapter that we

would like to give to your listeners if

I can give the landing page.

I'll link all of that below. So, I'll

link all of your book books below, but

also that free chapter. Thank you so

much everybody.

Thanks. Thank you.

Thank you.

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Heat. Heat. N.

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