BARACK OBAMA on What It Takes to Raise Boys and How Michelle Made Parenting Better | IMO

This woman came up to me and she was so nice. She's like, "Can I have a

nice. She's like, "Can I have a picture?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh

picture?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh so you know how you you get the side hug and she's like, "What did he do?"

And you knew she was going to say what he did.

How did he And I was you It wasn't like, "What happened to him?"

him?" That is so terrible.

How'd he mess up?

How'd he mess up? And and I said, "Well, what makes you think he messed up?

Why couldn't it been Why did you just say no one messed up?"

Well, because I wanted to I I wanted to I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I could tell you about it.

Oh Lord.

[Applause] This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Chase Home Lending.

Hey little girl, welcome to DC my brother.

I am so happy to be here once again.

Yeah, it's good to have you in in our town. is how's it going? You had a

town. is how's it going? You had a little little flight delay.

I had a little travel issues. So, but

I'm not going to complain because we have been doing this for a little bit.

I know it's always a little dicey when when you when somebody got to travel and you know I'm not I'm traveling in these streets like a regular person so I got to be

careful. But it's not it. So, wait. For

careful. But it's not it. So, wait. For

those of you it was a little bit of a weather delay.

Couldn't fly into DC.

Yeah. had to divert our plane to Pittsburgh. I ended up staying in lovely

Pittsburgh. I ended up staying in lovely Pittsburgh for about 5 hours and uh I got here in one piece about midnight.

Always grateful.

And I was able to head over to my Airbnb without bothering you. I didn't have to wake you up at 1 in the morning.

Nice having you stay with us, though.

You're such a Airbnb.

I am. I am. I've I've really I've really changed my behavior. But uh

How's this one? This one's really nice.

It, you know, it actually this one's really nice because it's just ordinary.

It's like an ordinary spot. It's not

neighborhood. I'm I'm in a neighborhood.

Can walk around and right across from a church.

Are you close to us?

I'm about 2 miles from here. So, it took me like 20 minutes to get here this morning. But

morning. But that's good.

It's really a neat It's good to have you here.

It's good to be here.

And we've got a very special guest today.

You know, I this is Let me stop and say very very very special.

Someone near and dear.

This is the episode that everyone's been waiting for because with baited breath because we have my brother-in-law, my husband,

my man, the former president of the United States.

He made time in his busy schedule to come on IMO. We are just so grateful. We

have the former president of the United States. We are honored

States. We are honored to have Barack Obama join us.

Barack Obama, can you can you join us on our Come on out here, brother.

Welcome to I am Oh, look at you.

Hi. How are you?

Wait, you guys like each other?

Oh, yeah. Really? Huh?

That's the rumor mill.

It's my husband, y'all.

She took me back.

Now, don't start.

I can't.

It was It was touch and go for a while.

It's so nice to have you both in the same room together.

I know. Cuz when we aren't, folks think we're divorced.

Let me Let me tell you. First of all, see, I I I'm I'm in Witchah, Kansas for Austin's tournament.

Uhhuh. And you know, this podcast has made me quite popular.

Yeah, you're big.

You're famous.

And people come up to me all the time.

This woman came up to me and she was so nice. She was like, "Can I have a

nice. She was like, "Can I have a picture?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then So,

picture?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then So, you know how you you get the side hug?

And she's like, "What did he do?"

And you knew she was going to say, "What?

How did he?" And I was like, you knew you It wasn't like, "What happened to him?

That is so terrible.

How'd he mess up?

How'd he mess up?" And she and and I said, "Well, what makes you think he messed up?

Why couldn't it been her?"

Why did you just say no one messed up?

Well, because I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to keep this conversation going so that I could tell you about it.

Oh Lord.

I was like, "What? What? What?" And she was like, "He did something, didn't he?"

I was like, "It's don't worry, everything's fine." And let me tell you,

everything's fine." And let me tell you, she was so happy. You would have thought I gave her a Christmas gift.

These are the kinds of things that I just miss. Mhm.

just miss. Mhm.

Right. So, I don't even know this stuff's going on.

Right.

And then somebody will mention it to me and I'm all like, "What are you talking about?"

about?" Yeah. There hasn't been one moment in

Yeah. There hasn't been one moment in our marriage where I thought about quitting um my man. Um and we've had

some really hard times. So, we had have had a lot of fun times, a lot of adventures, and I have become a better person because of the man I'm married to.

Okay. Don't Don't make me cry now. Right

at the beginning of the show.

A is that sweet.

Don't Don't let me start tearing up now.

And welcome to IMO.

Welcome to IMO. Get you all teared up.

See, but this is why I can't talk. See,

you can take the hard stuff, but when I start talking about the sweet stuff, you're like, "Stop. No, I can't do it."

No, I I I love it. I'm I'm enjoying it.

But thank you, honey, for being on our show. Thanks for your time. We got you

show. Thanks for your time. We got you guys.

Of course, I've been listening.

Yeah. What? Any tips? Any, you know, any any observations? Uh,

any observations? Uh, you know, Craig can tighten up a little bit.

You're doing great.

Thanks honey.

And that's why we're married for I got I thought so.

See, now that's what a brother-in-law is for folks.

Absolutely. Uh, well, we've we've got a question today from a listener in San Francisco named Emma.

Okay, I want to hear from Emma.

And let's hear from Emma so we can dive into this topic.

Hi, Michelle and Craig. I have three younger brothers and I'm a new mom to a one-year-old little boy. What can we do to change the fact that we raise our girls and we love our boys? There is so much dialogue on raising strong,

independent women, but how can we raise emotionally intelligent, competent men?

I am deeply concerned by the ideology promoted to my younger brothers online.

I want to raise a young man who sees through those ideas. How can we energize the discussion around raising young men that want to change these oppressive and even violent dynamics?

Now, before we dig in, yeah, you two have raised two wonderful daughters and have taught them numerous

lessons. And I just want to hear from

lessons. And I just want to hear from Barack how you approached raising your daughters because this was obviously before you

got to the White House. So you were just like the rest of us, just a regular dad who's having kids and going to work and trying to make time. What was your

strategy?

Well, first of all, um, the most important strategy, whether it was a boy or a girl, was having the right partner.

And now that I'm not, that's that I say even behind her back.

Yeah.

Every one of my young male staff members uh when they talk to me about dating and and relationships and what to look for,

I say, "Look, the starting point is this person is going to raise your children alongside you." And so I I I'll be

alongside you." And so I I I'll be honest with you, uh Michelle being Malia and Sasha's mom, um

that made all the difference. And then I and and I do think for whatever reason we had similar strategies in the sense that I think we

both believed that you give unconditional love to kids but you also give them structure that that you're you're always there for

them and keeping them safe but you're also saying as early as 2 or No, you can't do that.

Mhm.

No, you can't have that.

We'd expl We believed in explaining why.

But we also believed in being firm.

We had bedtimes and bath times and you know, you had to eat your vegetables even if you didn't like them, right?

And you couldn't act stupid in public and couldn't do it. We couldn't whine or throw tantrums and

and and so we had I think a shared vision of how to you know what what your mom always used to talk about. You're

raising adults, right?

And and so you're starting off saying to them, here are consequences for your actions.

Here's responsibilities that we think you can handle.

Um make mistakes and learn from them. So

we had that and let let me just say too just so that people understand the kind of father Barack was from the beginning is that he

was an engaged father from the minute they were born. Um and he wasn't the kind of man that was like I don't do this. I don't change diapers. I'll hand

this. I don't change diapers. I'll hand

them to me when they talk and I can you know and I can relate. They make me feel comfortable. Um, you know, we as when

comfortable. Um, you know, we as when when Malia was a baby, um, we shared 50/50. Um,

50/50. Um, I took the night shift.

He took took the night shift. He's the

night owl. And that helped me because I wasn't sleepd deprived because I I would pump while I was breastfeeding, which wasn't for a long time. And I would go

to bed at a reasonable bedtime and I could hand my baby. And I will say my because she was my baby over to this guy and know that stinky man

and know that she would be alive in the morning, right?

You know, um and he relished that time.

But I also had to let go, right? I had

to say, you know what, I whatever is happening between 8 at night and 5 in the morning, I can't I can't micromanage that relationship. They're going to be

that relationship. They're going to be okay. She's a baby. Mhm.

okay. She's a baby. Mhm.

He was the one who got her sleep trained because I wouldn't have been able to handle letting my baby cry it out.

But over the course of a week, I think it was 3 days. It wasn't even a long time at 5 months.

So once he did that, so we had kids who slept through the night from the time they were five months old.

So because we shared that responsibility and Barack owned a huge part of the girls as infants, M it established a relationship between him and them.

Yeah.

That you know uh carries through even today.

You know that that brings me what you said what you both have said brings me to a question that I'm going to ask but I'm going to contextualize it with the

fact that when after you guys became famous, people would ask me about you guys meeting and and how you came about

and the origin story and all of that.

And what I always talked about and it it warms my heart to this day is that Barack's background is so different from our background. I mean, it's so

our background. I mean, it's so different and everybody know it's it's and I used to say in it in spite of the fact that we were raised

so differently, somehow you developed the exact same values that we did. So much of Barack reminded us of our dad,

our dad and the the the way stuff he said, stuff you said. And it was like his consistency, his honesty, his, you know, his humor,

his your authenticity before people were using that word authenticity.

um your calmness and it just I I I brought that up because I think people who haven't asked

me that question should know that and and and probably want to know how did how did that evolve?

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because this relates to how I was thinking about fatherhood too, right? Um

I as as I think most people now know, you guys certainly know, I I did not know my dad, right?

Uh he was in Kenya by the time I had memories, you know, he left my mother and I when I was two. Um I met him once.

And so I'm really raised by my mom and my grandparents for about four years. my

stepfather when we were in Indonesia who was a very kind man uh Maya's dad my sister's dad and and uh I have I have

very fond memories of him but u one of the reasons it worked was he didn't pretend like uh you know our relationship was more than

it was he was like look I married your mom I love you I'm going to take care of you but I understand you know uh you

know, we're were different. And

and then my grandfather was older, he's white, uh generationally different. Um

a a good heart, but he was troubled in a lot of ways and and and had had issues.

So, I didn't have like the obvious role model the way you did of all right, here's how you are a dad.

Um, and I didn't really have a bunch of uncles around or or other immediate family father figures. So, I'm kind of piecing it together. And

which is true for so many that's the story for so many boys growing up these days.

I I I mean, in that sense, I think as unusual as my background was, that part of it isn't that unusual, right? It was

kind of typical. Mhm.

And I think a couple things happened now. I

I was loved and that's a starting point, right? That that the people who were

right? That that the people who were around me cared about me and I never felt an absence of that.

And the second thing I think you learn to do uh when you're in that situation is all right, I I gotta sort of uh I have to

adopt role models. I I got to piece it together and get a sense of all right, what does it mean to be a man? Now,

later on, as I got older, I' you'd start recognizing that some of the ideas about manhood that were being given to us back in the 70s and the 80s.

Not all of them were great, right?

Can Can I ask you both to talk about what that what manhood meant for you? um

you know what what it meant for you when you were little boys coming up, what you thought it was and what you then came to

understand it to actually be.

Well, I I don't remember maybe um when I was a really young child other than the idea that

uh guys were strong, they didn't whine, they were they were tough. Um

they were expected to go to work.

They worked and provide, right?

Um and and protect.

Yes.

I mean, and and I I think back about dad. I think when when I'm thinking

dad. I think when when I'm thinking about dad as a role model, I remember the fact that here you have a man who has MS and he's getting up and he's going to

work absolutely every day, right?

And he is not complaining. That's

another thing. Men didn't complain.

You don't complain. You're stoic.

You were. Yeah. I I love that word stoic. Coach Carmony used to use that

stoic. Coach Carmony used to use that all the time. Stoic. But our dad never complained. He never got up. He had a

complained. He never got up. He had a sense of humor. That was another thing that you learned from guys is that you needed a sense of humor. And but the

most one of the most important things that I remember is that you got along.

Got along. You got along. Period.

Period. You got along with the other guys you were with. You got along with your teammates. You got along with your

your teammates. You got along with your co-workers.

Nobody wanted to be considered a jerk.

That is true. Some some of the definitions of manhood I think were negative right?

You don't whine. You don't cry.

No emotion.

You're not a jerk. Mhm.

I do like the thing you brought up though about being a protector because for some reason that part of it I think

appealed to me and it at its best it then counterbalanced the idea of being strong, right?

Like you're strong not to pick on people. Yeah.

Right. Not to be a bully, not to dominate others. it instead it's strength in order to protect right and

and for me a lot of being a man was being self-sufficient right the idea of I can handle myself and make my way

through the world and I you know I I tell this story you've heard this story and sometimes people

kind of freak out um you know fairly early on because I was freak out over this because I was living in Indonesia. Um

u I'd fly from Hawaii to Indonesia on my own if I was visiting my grandparents even at the age of eight. Yeah. And it

was cool cuz Stuart was there. She would grab you and put you in the seat and give you a little uh if it was Panam, you know,

they'd have little flight pin little pin flight pin and you know uh you know, give you soda pop and and so I I felt very grown

up. I I didn't mind. Um, so I was I was

up. I I didn't mind. Um, so I was I was used to traveling pretty far distances alone.

And coming back uh from Jakarta, Indonesia when I I was at this point probably 10, maybe 11.

Um, my mother, who was working there and was about to go into the field, um,

dropped me off. I had my little suitcase and she gave me a hug. Love you, babe.

And uh then took off and she was about to actually leave the city.

Didn't didn't walk to the gate. Just

Yeah.

airport. We were there.

Yeah.

And uh and come to find out uh she had forgotten uh to give me my passport.

Oh, wow. So, and I didn't really kind of find this out until I'm about to go through customs. And so, I I'm problem solving a little

bit here and I'm thinking, okay, um, now Jakarta is a city of like 8 million people. This is not a small.

people. This is not a small.

No, this is like being in New York or something being LaGuardia and there's no cell phones and and there are no cell phones back then uh and whatnot. So, I I'm thinking, okay, I think she had to stop by her

office first before she left town. Uh, I

ask the, you know, Stewart, uh, can to leave the bag with him. Uh, I go outside. There are these little rickshaw

outside. There are these little rickshaw type things called betchocks. And I say, "Can you give me a ride to uh where my

mom's office is?" Um, and I don't have any money, but I know if I get there, hopefully I catch her. Get there. She's just about pulling

her. Get there. She's just about pulling out. I tell her, "Hey, mom, you forgot

out. I tell her, "Hey, mom, you forgot the passport."

the passport." Oh, by the way, I got this uh driver. We

got to pay.

And get back in time and make my flight.

And when Michelle hears this story, right, she's horrified. Um, and I'm sure Kelly,

she's horrified. Um, and I'm sure Kelly, if she heard this story, would be horrified as well.

I I have to say that for me it was like, "Oh, I I can handle this."

this." And I I didn't I don't remember feeling scared or worried or neglected. I just

remember thinking, "Okay, uh h how do I figure this out?"

And I felt good about the fact that I'd figured it out. And I do think that that element of being a man for me was important. Now

keep in mind my mother was 18 when she had me. Right. So

had me. Right. So

around this time she's not much older than Malia.

Mhm. And in that sense, I think I felt more protective towards her and didn't feel as if somehow I well the that I I needed to that I needed to or

should depend on her in order to make sure that I'm handling my business. And

well, there there's a you know there's a spectrum of parenting. I mean they label it now. You know there's the helicopter

it now. You know there's the helicopter and then there's the what is the the jungle parent or the freewilling. They

call it something freerange parenting.

Free range.

Yeah. My mother was definitely in the free range category category. Love me today.

category. Love me today.

Um you know but there are you know the story you tell is the story of probably most kids a lot of kids ac across the country if you know you're

single parent you don't have somebody at home. You know a lot of kids are you

home. You know a lot of kids are you know they got to get up make their own breakfast find their way. They're doing

that every day. Um because there isn't an alternative. Correct. Um

an alternative. Correct. Um

and figuring out what that balance is.

Figuring out what that that's exactly the point. What is the balance tough

the point. What is the balance tough which is very different from how um we parented our kids, how Kelly is and you and Kelly are parenting your your

younger sons now. But part of it, don't you think part of it was also time specific in the sense that when we were coming up,

you know, um the idea of kids just being out and having adventures and just getting home in time for dinners, you know, especially during the summers,

right? Part of what happened, and I

right? Part of what happened, and I maybe affected boys a little more than girls, I don't know, is that freedom,

that sense of being able to build up resilience and a sense of competence and a sense of I can manage the world around me because the stakes weren't so high.

you when I think about kids now on the south side, same neighborhoods where you guys grew up,

but the chances of possibly getting shot or the chances of, you know, some other terrible thing happening are higher. And I think that

affected everybody's parenting and it affected how we uh handle kids, right?

So that now suddenly instead of just saying all right get out of here and come back at uh for dinner time now it's a play date and where are you and do we know the parents where you're

playing and and so on and so forth.

We see a good example in it in uh one of my favorite shows on Netflix that has become the topic of conversation amongst a lot of people particularly in black

homes is this uh series uh forever.

which is a beautiful story um of young love in in in a black neighborhood and it is it is not traumatic and bad things

don't happen just regular kids it's just regular kids that reflects all of our lives in real ways and I I know you watch some of that and Barack you are

well aware of it but you know it's it the the the show has created a lot of conversation in terms of how do you raise emotionally intelligent boys and what we get right and what we get wrong.

Um, not just among boys but kids in general.

Yeah. Well, we watched it as a family.

We watched the whole series as a family and uh enjoyed it a lot.

Um and um it was really fun to hear the boys talk about, oh, you guys would have done that or you guys wouldn't have done

that. That was that was eyeopening as a

that. That was that was eyeopening as a parent, you know, because they're evaluating it. They got the little checklist.

They're evaluating our parenting or or they're evaluating their parenting based on their own uh That's the crazy That's a crazy thing dad would do.

Yeah. Yeah. And it So, so it but this brings me back to Emma. Emma's trying to raise these boys and so she's trying to be somewhere between Forever

and then the other show that people are talking about Adolescence which I haven't watched yet. Um which

um it gets into sort of the misogyny that that that young boys are exposed to and the online, you know, the the man they're getting their

parenting online. They're getting their

parenting online. They're getting their notions of manhood from from extreme extremists.

Yeah. Extremists.

Well, but let me ask you this.

Yeah.

Cuz because let's go back to the original question. All right. Emma's

original question. All right. Emma's

trying to figure out how to raise boys.

Um I think we did a pretty good job of raising our girls, but I've said often that I think I would have had more difficulty raising a son.

I agree.

because I think I might have been more judgmental harder and you know I would have tried to I I like

to think I would have been more self-aware enough to to combat that.

But I I just think father son relationships for me particularly if I don't have a dad around to to show it to me might have been more difficult. So

talk about Craig ju just how you thought about it. Was it just you took what your

about it. Was it just you took what your dad had done and you said, "I'm going I'm going to do this. I'm going to try the same thing." Uh, did it change over time?

It it there it was a little bit of everything with both what you're both saying.

Initially, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to take what I learned from dad, all the things that I thought were positive, and then the couple of things that I thought from were negative, I was going to try and repurpose,

right? What were some of the positives?

right? What were some of the positives?

Well, the I mean just kind of the stuff that I named before, the the the willingness to get up and go to work every day,

taking me with him to see what it was like to have male relationships e either at work, at the barber shop, you know, he didn't go to the gym, but in in places where men hung out,

right?

Uh the record store, we would go to the record store every now and then and and he'd have a bunch of friends there. Uh,

that sounds like an old I know idea going to the record. Oh,

it's come back. It's come back.

Oh, has it? Okay, good.

It's retro.

But but those were some of the positive things, you know, h how to walk with mom when you're walking down the street.

Always walk on the street side and holding the door and opening the door for her, allowing her to go in. It

was just things like that. And then and then I you know I'd have to really work at thinking of something negative that dad did. But um

dad did. But um well what about let me let me ask this though. I mean you know dad also came

though. I mean you know dad also came home put his feet up you know he didn't always cook. He didn't do dishes. He

always cook. He didn't do dishes. He

didn't do but but you have to remember that I was thinking at the time that was okay cuz he was at work all day and he needed to rest and mom was always cooking. So, but

that but that's a good one. That's a

good that's a good potential negative.

Gender roles. Very clear.

Very clear gender roles.

Very clear.

And I thought, okay, I'm going to do the positive things and then sort of uh expose Avery, who's my oldest, to less of the negative things.

And and you have to remember Averyy's 33, so he didn't have to worry. We

didn't have to worry about social media.

There was very little internet stuff, you know. We we really focused on uh how

you know. We we really focused on uh how to behave out in public as a guy or I I should say um how to how to get along, how to how to treat girls, how to have

conversations.

But with Austin and Aaron, it's more of how do you deal with social media and which was which was uh in forever.

the the whole premise uh of the show uh what are you supposed to say when you do that spoiler alert spoiler alert was a video that got leaked.

Mhm.

So we we're constantly talking to them about that.

Um and now I I have even more things to draw from because I raised Avery and there were some things that I I was like I wish I hadn't done that.

I could have done that better. I could

have done that better. Whether it was sort of teaching them how to drink me.

If if you don't know how to, you could end up in a bad situation.

Um, you know, more direct conversations about the first time you are with a woman intimately.

Mhm.

Do you mean sex, Craig?

I do. I do mean sex. And it's funny how I I I was I was tiptoeing around a little around because I I feel like I'm You made me nervous. I was just like,

"Let me just let him get through this."

But but but [Music] hey everyone, it's your boy Craig

Robinson here. And if you've been

Robinson here. And if you've been listening and watching our show, you will know that I have become an Airbnb guy. And I used to be a non-stop hotel

guy. And I used to be a non-stop hotel guy. Uh, but I got to tell you, I really

guy. Uh, but I got to tell you, I really enjoy finding a nice place using the guest favorites feature on the Airbnb

app. And the reason why I like it is

app. And the reason why I like it is because people just like you have visited many of these places and have rated them as their favorite. And it

makes it easy for me to make a decision when I'm planning my trips. Just take

this trip that I'm on right now. I'm

here in Washington DC knocking out a bunch of episodes for IMO and I am staying in a nice Airbnb in a wonderful

neighborhood in walking distance to great restaurants, to great coffee shops, to the park. Um, and it's it's really getting warm in DC. And this

place has a really nice back porch. I

can sit outside in private and and enjoy the weather. Relying on the guest

the weather. Relying on the guest favorites feature is is has made picking a place for me to stay even easier. So

the next time you're planning a trip, why don't you try the guests favorites feature on the Airbnb app?

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[Music] I love what you were talking about earlier and and and and this was part of my thinking about being a man and being

a protector was the little things, you know, uh getting in somebody's chair, opening a door.

Mhm.

Um you know, help helping uh you know, standing up if you're on the bus.

Yeah.

And giving your seat to to somebody else. Right. a lot of the basic things that also just had to do with being thoughtful, right? This was

like being kind.

Being kind. I mean, this was male expressions of kindness and consideration.

It used to be called common courtesy.

Common courtesy. Can I can I ask because as you guys are talking about these characteristics and traits again a lot of it is how to behave the external part

of you but I think what I hear that gets missed and it was was missed in you guys growing up in definitions of manhood was the internal self. Yes.

Right. Because all stoicism is external u manners common courtesy it's all external protecting it's all outward it's like how do you appear I don't want

you to get arrested so you have to behave in a certain way I want you to be polite because I want you to be safe right and there's there's not a lot of conversation at this table about

well how do you how do you feel and how how are boys being taught to help sort through their internal internal selves.

And it's almost like you're supposed to pretend like you don't have an internal self, an internal emotion uh of hurt or

fear or all the things that are natural of any human. But definitely, you know, fears and emotions that young boys,

adolescent men, grown men are feeling.

But there's there's no talk in any of these conversations about being anyone, father present, father not, helping boys guide through that piece of it. It's

almost as if we are raising boys and pretending like their outward selves are the only things that matter and therefore who they are internally how

they process, you know, how they deal with fear and hurt like that. It that's not even on the the list of of No, I I I would agree with you. It's not

on the list because it it I I don't know about you, but during my upbringing that was nobody talked about that.

Yeah. So that you you couldn't even have that for yourself.

I I I I wouldn't even known how to have it, right? I I would have I would have

it, right? I I would have I would have I'm I'm just trying to think about the times when I felt insecure

that's internal or I felt fear or I felt some sort of way. I could always go to dad and say, "I'm feeling this because

of something that took place."

It wasn't I I didn't even know that I could be feeling this just inside and not it not manifesting itself. It was

always a discussion on something that it was some issue that had come up.

And so it was a problem-solving conversation.

It was always a problem-solving conversation. Well, well, I look, I I do

conversation. Well, well, I look, I I do think that is part of the the culture we grew up in was not that you didn't have feelings, but you

ascribed them to a certain situation.

You know, somebody's messing with you, uh, you're getting bullied at school, uh, you didn't make the team, how should you deal with this? Right? And then

there would be real conversations, but it very much was around All right, stuff happens in the world and you've got to deal with it. And it goes back to the

whole notion of being strong, self-reliant, don't be a baby, etc. I I I do think that one of the differences

for me was being raised by a teen mom um and you know young young mother was she would talk to me a lot about how she was

feeling and in turn I could talk to her about how I was feeling and and so I do think I developed some

internal vocabulary around this and frankly and and I know this, you know, uh, you know, conforms to my nerdy uh,

uh, reputation that my wife likes to tease me about, but books taught me a lot about

emotions, right? Like reading and and

emotions, right? Like reading and and movies and TV shows, etc. But but getting that sense of oh this is what

people go through and developing kind of an an inner monologue about uh situations.

How are other people feeling? How am I feeling? I you know I tried to kind of

feeling? I you know I tried to kind of piece that together and it was imperfect.

Um but at least there were avenues in which I could have those conversations.

Craig want I I I am interested in in what you described in terms of your relationship with your dad. So did that then carry over to how you interacted with your friends coming up and did was

there a point in time where you thought okay when I'm dealing with Avery or Aaron or Austin I need to maybe have a

different approach. I need to share more

different approach. I need to share more of my emotions so that they feel like they can come to me and talk about theirs. What was that process?

theirs. What was that process?

So the the process was this.

I felt like once I had kids, I had to re-evaluate everything which included my relationships with my friends and family

and work and the whole thing. And I

realized when Avery was born, I needed to cut down my circle of friends to the serious ones because I've got some serious

business of raising this kid, these kids when Leslie came along.

And it was about that time that I was it is probably the first time where I had really deep conversations

with my male friends where you started to understand, okay, something's going on with this person. Let me find out what it is.

person. Let me find out what it is.

Something's going on with me. Let me

share it. That's the hardest part, at least for me. One of the things you've both been good at um is having male friend groups and studies show that the

rate of loneliness among young men and older men has gone up which pushes them into these manosphere spaces because it's the only place they're they're

going to find community or to talk to one another. Uh can you guys talk about

one another. Uh can you guys talk about how you you both have managed to maintain friendships? What do you think

maintain friendships? What do you think is different about the way you guys have lived lives? I mean, Barack, you've

lived lives? I mean, Barack, you've maintained your friends through being in the White House, but there are a lot of men out there in the world who say that they don't have more than a couple of friends, if that.

You know, I was in high school, mostly being raised by my grandparents.

And I ended up making a a bunch of friends, a lot of them who were basketball players, but not all.

Um, and it wasn't until later that I realized actually they were all uh kids of of divorced parents.

So, so they're all being raised by single moms. It was almost like we kind of created our little tribe

of of found community, a found family.

Um, and and you now know them all. Bobby

Tickham and Gregorm and Mike Ramos and and and they were an opportunity for me actually to

learn how to share. Uh, and and what that did teach me was that having

male friends I could talk to and count on was important to my life.

Mhm.

And it turns out actually what we've learned is our families, our nuclear family was healthier and happier precisely because we had a bunch of friends and

we had you know uh essentially you know non-blood aunts and uncles and cousins play cousins and all that who who were around all the time, right?

Um, but even with my close male friends, there was a phase, you know, when we were in our 30s and into our early 40s, first of all, we just didn't

have that much money, so and they were living in different places, so we couldn't see each other all the time, but we did stay in touch. And

[Music] what I've figured out and that lasted through the White House as I collected other friends and in

Chicago and and you know college and was just being intentional uh with your friendships,

making the investment, knowing it's important, um letting them know they're important.

to you, your friends, um, small gestures, all that stuff mattered. And I do think that um guys

sometimes don't do that. Like the the like the idea is,

do that. Like the the like the idea is, all right, well, if you're around, we can hang out.

If if if it happens, it happens. Um, but

yeah, I know so many men who don't call each other. They don't talk on a regular

each other. They don't talk on a regular B. They're best friends.

B. They're best friends.

And it's like, well, I saw him 3 years ago. He's my best friend,

ago. He's my best friend, right? And and and so I think I have

right? And and and so I think I have gotten better about this and you know, one of the things that got me through the White House was that those

same three friends that I knew, you know, in from high school, um I saw them all the time.

Yeah. you know, and Bobby Titkum became a, you know, was during most of the White House was a commercial fisherman in Hawaii and Greg Orm was managing a a

yogurt plant in in in in Oregon and Mike Ramos was an accountant and and

but the sense of trust and um the memories we shared and them having our backs and them loving our daughters And

you know, uh, we set up this thing.

Michelle did this. One of the best gifts I ever got, um, for my birthday was my 50th. And it was a rough time. I was

50th. And it was a rough time. I was

getting my butt kicked in in the presidency. And she organized my 50th

presidency. And she organized my 50th birthday, brought all these friends from all my different walks of life to Camp David

uh, for a weekend. And of course being boys we just started competing organized competition

and um and we had so much fun that uh we made it into an annual thing that we started calling Camp Adelon even after it was no longer in Camp David. And you

know you get these you know 12 15 middle-aged men running around the numbers have grown you know uh you bowling or in ping pong. You've seen it.

It's quite the spectacle.

It's quite the spectacle.

But the point is just creating some some structures where guys can get together and then in the in stride in the flow

now a whole bunch of stuff is shared, talked about, etc. That that turned out to be something that uh that mattered a lot to me. But how what what what's been

your secret to to maintaining your friendships? And um

friendships? And um it it it's been your la your last point of being intentional, right?

And to Misha's point, I would say in the last let's call it seven years. So that's not

long at all, right? I have because of these kinds of

right? I have because of these kinds of discussions, I have picked up the phone and called my friends more often than I

had done in the past.

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[Music] I I do want to talk to Emma as a a mother um because she's a mother trying to figure this out and I do think

there's a question like the original question of why do we love our sons and raise our daughters and I think that's something worth sort talking through

among mothers because sadly many mothers are parenting alone um which is a huge problem um I think Scott Galloway way.

There are other researchers out there who say that one of the challenges that boys face is that there just aren't enough men in their lives. You know, the men have disappeared whether through

divorce or fatherhood. There small

numbers of male teachers in in high schools. They, you know, boys are

schools. They, you know, boys are growing up in an education system where it's they're mostly surrounded by women.

You know, Barack, you talked about the fact, you've talked about the fact that the entire education system isn't even designed to recognize boys and what they

need. Um, so, you know, what do we say

need. Um, so, you know, what do we say to Emma? You know, cuz again, we don't

to Emma? You know, cuz again, we don't know whether she's parenting alone or whether she has a husband. But I do think that mothers struggle to figure

out what do their sons need. And so they wind up operating out of their own fears and their own instincts, which is to love unconditionally. Um, I think mom

love unconditionally. Um, I think mom was like this. She she raised me to be tough because I think she knew what it was like to be a woman. In her mind, she

knew what she was preparing me for, the insults, the limitations, the the whatever you you you sexism, the biases. So she knew you have

to have a mouth. you have to be able to speak up for yourself.

With you, she wanted you to be nice so that you wouldn't get in trouble or you wouldn't get arrested. But was that who you were? Um, so what do we say to the

you were? Um, so what do we say to the Emma's of the world? How do we sort of start thinking as a society about helping mothers, right?

Um, raise sons because they're doing it alone and we're being told that we don't have what it takes to give boys all of

what they need. Well, look, I I I think you you started hint hinting at it. Um,

as somebody who was raised by a single mom, um, not perfectly, but you know, that unconditional love as a start is the right one. Mhm.

I do think though thinking about raising boys in the same way you're thinking about raising daughters, which is how do you make them

good, responsible people who know how to function and know how to understand themselves well enough that they can navigate this really

complicated world and setting high expectations. So, so there are a lot of

expectations. So, so there are a lot of these things that apply to boys and girls. I do think that there are some

girls. I do think that there are some particular issues with boys that as a society we're not addressing. I do think as a society

not addressing. I do think as a society we have to create more structures for boys and men to have guidance rituals

frameworks encouragement uh you know to to be able to meet a wide range of role models so that whatever

their inclinations, they can see a path to to success that isn't just sports or money.

Uh you making a lot of money and and and so that's on on all of us together. What

I would say to Emma would be in your community, if even if you have a wonderful male

partner who's in the house, I think it still would be good to find assets in the community, people in the

community, friends in your community, uh, uh, you know, places of worship, uh, community organiz organizations, what

have you, where there are a bunch of men who can be sort of elders to boys.

Um, and so they're not just looking at one particular role model, but many. And

and you know, one of the things I when we when Michelle and I first started dating and I'd go over to your guys' house, one of the things I loved was just, you know,

seeing all your uncles and your cousins.

And there were a bunch of different kinds of men, you know, there were men that were kind of soft-spoken, and then there were men that were loud, and there were men who were uh engineers, and then there were

men who were uh, you know, police officers, police officers, or they or they drove, you know, right?

And that's one of the things that I think a lot of times boys need is

not just exposure to one guy, one dad, one dad. No matter how good the dad is,

one dad. No matter how good the dad is, dad is, he can't be he can't be everything. And then that that boy may need somebody to give give the boy some perspective on the dad right?

One of the most valuable things I learned as as a guy was I had a gay professor

in college at a time when openly gay folks still weren't out of line who became one of my favorite professors

and was a great guy and would call me out when I started saying stuff that was ignorant.

You need that.

Mhm. to to show empathy and kindness.

And by the way, you need that person in your friend group so that if you then have a boy who is who's who's who's gay or or non-binary or what have you, they have somebody that they can go, "Okay, I'm

not alone in this."

Yeah.

Right. So, so that I think is creating that community. I know it's corny, but

that community. I know it's corny, but that's what they need.

And we talk a lot about what we had with our mother and father, right? Um, and you know, a lot of times

right? Um, and you know, a lot of times you But we really did have a big community of people in our lives. Um,

I mean that we don't talk a lot about that on this show. we allude to it, but we Craig and I, we grew up in a huge community of extended aunts and uncles

and cousins and all types of male role models which helped in uh broadening out and filling in where our mother and father were limited.

So for for Emma, I'm I'm picking up a couple of things. community big not just um a single mom

a single mom or or mom and dad but a broad community and I I can appreciate you using our family as an example but

uncles but not necessarily blood blood but men who can con who who can give a kid or kids some contextualization of

who their parents are right and also and can model there are a lot of ways to be a responsible, respected, strong man. And you don't

have to be rich and you don't have to be a professional athlete.

And you don't have to go find it on the internet among correct a group of unclear influences, you know, and this is a thing that parents, Emma, has to

understand. If that if their her sons

understand. If that if their her sons aren't getting it, they'll find they'll look for it. look

for it because this is cuz boys need this. They whether they think that

this. They whether they think that they're happy playing video games on their own and we haven't even talked about how the, you know, the rise in video games has sort of left kids

feeling like, well, this is who I am.

Um, I'm alone or I'm in you interacting through a game virtually virtually, but I don't have any in real life friends. Kids are going to seek out

life friends. Kids are going to seek out some kind of community.

So, big big community. I would emphasize because they need to have other outlets.

They have to be able to learn how to be more than just the sport that they care about.

Um, and they and while they get great skills in sports and they learn a whole lot of traits, it isn't it isn't music, it's not

language, it's not it's not social in certain ways. And so I think we owe it

certain ways. And so I think we owe it to our boys to be very deliberate about saying enough with sports and let's try some other things

or at least encouraging them and exposing them to it in a way. Look,

sports was scaffolding for me to to pull myself into manner.

But even as I was doing that though, my mom was still dragging me to art museums. Yeah. And

Yeah. And I was still being taken to, you know, waiting for GDO. Like I I

remember my mom took me to a Samuel Beckett play when I was like 12 and I'm kind of sitting there like what is this about? But

but you know what? I kind of got it after a while. I thought that's interesting. I mean it wasn't

interesting. I mean it wasn't necessarily the thing I would choose to do but the fact that I did it meant later when I was 17 18 all right

I there's something there that you know may be interesting so so sometimes it's just a matter of you know g given saying to our boys

you being interested in art and you being interested in you know uh theater that's Mhm.

I would also boys hearing that those are good things.

So that and and I would tell Emma, you know, don't assume who your son is going to be based on some male stereotypes of what you think he should be,

right?

Really pay attention to who he's showing you he is. Right.

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[Music] So we're giving we're giving Emma those two things, the community and the diversity in sports. But I want to go

back to a third thing that uh I you brought up early on is we have to help them be self-aware of their own internal

feelings. Is that how you

feelings. Is that how you Yeah. You're

Yeah. You're rather than you know when we're talking about all the traits were all external.

That's a that's one I like that one. I

like that one for Emma. I like that one for Emma.

Okay. I'm glad you like that one. And

and Michelle's right that I think girls it comes more organically to them in their social groups.

But the way I describe it, and I, you know, I talked to Malian and Sasha about this is figuring out how to

have a a a good conversation with yourself and and and being open and kind to yourself in figuring out, all right, I'm not feeling

great here and and what's going on and and how where how can I share this and how can I talk about it? I mean, I I think that's something you want to teach all kids.

Mhm.

Um, but that takes time.

But that takes and and it takes some practice and encouragement.

Mhm. And I would say say to Emma and all parents period of sons that it requires some slowing down on the

part of the parent. Um, because that that stuff that's that's not science.

That's art. that like you can't you can't schedule that. It's not a formula.

Um you have to create space for your and it's not efficient. It will never be efficient because kids, you know, they don't open up on time. You know, they're not always going to have a feeling at

dinner time when you're ready. Yeah.

Um, so you have to create enough space, enough time, um, throughout the course of a week, a month, you know, to give kids that space to let

things unfold, to let them unfold for you. And I think parents of sons have to

you. And I think parents of sons have to understand that sons need unfolding in that emotional way as much as their daughters do. There's

daughters do. There's it turns out, yeah, some of some of these studies are showing they may need it more.

They may need it even more. be maybe

because they're not getting it reinforced in the outside world anywhere else.

It does mean though that as as as men, we have to in whatever conversations we're having with

boys, sending the signal that that emotional intelligence, paying attention to how other people are feeling and also paying attention to how you are feeling

and being able to describe that and and work through those things. That that is a a characteristic of being a grown man.

where there's no it's worthwhile and that means we have to practice that too.

And that's also a message for the the fathers out there you know among many things of we need more men present you know that's something that studies are showing

you know uh men are not present in the lives of children and that is that has a disproportionate is having a disproportionate impact on boys

um but men have to do the selfwork too um fathers men general be in general because if you're of a certain generation We just saw it here. You guys didn't You

guys weren't taught that. You weren't

taught how to you, Barack, you read about it. You know, you were unusual in

about it. You know, you were unusual in your pursuit of it. Maybe because it's the way you were raised, but a lot of men aren't aware that their ability to

unpack themselves and the need to do that work is going to directly impact young boys in the world, period.

Yeah. I I I I think you are absolutely right. I I I

right. I I I at the danger of sounding like the policy guy here, I do want to just go

back to something I said earlier. Um,

everything you said is right and that's work men have to do. I think it's important not to divorce that work from

some other stuff like men having jobs.

I totally agree. Totally agree. It was

not in either or at all.

Exactly. But but but because part of what happened when we say there aren't a lot of men around, yes. Part of what happened,

yes. Part of what happened, and it happened in the black community first, but then now you're seeing it happening across the board,

was a lot of male identity and status was tied up with being a provider, having a job, doing a good job, coming

home. And when folks started losing jobs

home. And when folks started losing jobs because of de-industrialization and offshoring and you know obviously this isn't a

political show so we're not going to go down all the reasons that happened but it happened.

And so then you had a bunch of men suddenly feeling lost because their identity had been so wrapped up in one thing

that one thing which was being a provider. And so part of what we have to

provider. And so part of what we have to do is Yeah.

Mhm.

as as men take responsibility for uh figuring out how to talk about and share feelings and cultivate

relationships and friendships.

But we as as a society, we also have to make sure that men don't feel redundant and don't feel as if there's not a place for them. And and

and there are entire communities now where the women are more likely to be employed than the men are and they have more

avenues for supporting their families.

Yeah. And and that is something that no matter how how much talk you engage in, if guys are feeling left out

and not respected, then it's they're going to act some kind of way and they're also going to pass that on to their sons. And we're making huge generalizations cuz in every

community there going to be exceptions.

Mhm. But before we close this out, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you,

the um person who embodies hope, what what is it? What what do you see as

uh going right for young people? What are you optimistic

young people? What are you optimistic about this future generation? I I I do think

that when we look at Malle and Sasha's generation, Avery's generation, I we don't yet know what what things are going to be like for Austin and and

Aaron cuz they're still on the come up.

But um I do think this idea of men

there are many different ways of being a good strong successful happy man. I think that's something that

happy man. I think that's something that uh young people are more open to and and recognize

and and so that's promising.

Um and we see it uh you know uh when we talk to to Mal and Sasha and and their friends. Um, I think that

friends. Um, I think that what we what we need to do in order to take advantage of that is to um

as as a society, as communities recognize that this this kind of transition from the old models that you and I, Craig,

grew up on, just like you said, you took a lot of good stuff from your dad, but then there were some modifications that just had to be made either cuz blind spots, limits, lack of resource,

what have you. the times.

The times you know where we joke that talking to me and Sasha sometimes they go out with their friends and you know they're in a

group and and the guys got crocodile arms you know it's like not picking up the check not not picking up the check and it's like okay you don't have to pick it up all the time

but if you're never picking it up right that that's a problem if you never opening a door or pulling out a chair cuz that's just common courtesy. That's just being kind,

common courtesy. That's just being kind, right? So

right? So for those of you who do not have sons, so Emma, we are rooting for you because those of us with daughters,

we need good guys. We we've got to have good guys out there. Not necessarily to get married, but to make sure that it

what we what we're learning, I think, is that when we don't think about boys and and and just assume they're going to be okay because they've been running the

world and, you know, they've got all the advantages relative to the girls and all of which has historically been true in all kinds of ways. But precisely because

of that, if you're not thinking about h uh what's what's happening to boys and and how are they being raised, then that

can actually hurt women. And and I would argue that some of the broad political trends we've seen, not just in this country, but around the world, have to do with

this sense of, you know, boys, men not feeling as if they are

seen, see feeling as if they count. Mhm.

And that then makes them more interested in appeals by folks who say, you know what, the the reason you don't feel respected

is because women have been doing this or this group has been doing this or this that group's been doing this. And and

and and that is not a um that's not a healthy place to be. and and and I will

say as quote unquote progressives, Democrats, uh, progressive parents, enlightened ones, we've made that mistake sometimes in

terms of our rhetoric where it's like we're constantly talking about, you know, uh, what's wrong with the boys instead of what's right with them. We we in

rightly have tried to invest in girls to make sure that that there's a level playing field and then they're not barred from from opportunities,

but we haven't been as willing, I think, to be intentional about investing in the boys and and that's been a mistake and and I I think people are starting to recognize that. So going back to your

recognize that. So going back to your optimism, I think there's a healthier conversation taking place now, both among this new generation of of young

women and men, but also among the the public at large that's starting to see like, hey, you know, we we we got to do better by our boys. And if we do better

by our boys and we're producing uh stronger, more confident men, that's going to be good for um our girls and our women as well.

Well, thank you, Barack Obama.

Man, it's been great having you on.

Yeah.

And and you know what?

Since we were talking about communities, um, my daughters having such a great uncle as a role model. You are the best

example of what I was just talking about. The love and learning that

about. The love and learning that they've gotten from you has made all kinds of difference. Just

like the relationship they have with Avery, you know, their cousin. Um, you

know, h having a bunch of boys and and men in their family who are not like me, you know, who who who don't have exactly

the same blind spots or or, you know, uh, biases or, you know, weird habits, you know, it's just, you know, it it made it it

made them better. Um, and you know how much they adore you, but that's that's a that's a great gift uh that you've given uh you've given me.

Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks.

Appreciate it. And the same goes to to you for our kids. So,

all right.

We uh we appreciate you.

All right. These are men. See how they struggle with their emotions? They're

I didn't think I was I thought I was being pretty open. I thought he was I thought he was really good. No, you did good. There we go.

good. There we go.

You know what? I love you, man. Love

you, too, man. I love you and I don't know what I'd do without you.

It's me.

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