Battery storage in The Netherlands - Transmission (Rens Savenije: Business Lead at Ventolines)

but let's first talk about the cost so

we have a quite a big problem because

our our grit fees are really high not

just it's not getting a grid connection

but it's the operational grid fees and

because of these huge GD reinforcements

these tariffs have been increasing

increasing the the tariffs on a TSO

level have increased by a factor four

over the last years so as in sorry

they're they're four times higher than

they were a year ago pretty much how

much you can make with a battery right

on on an annual basis and it's about the

same as this number try make up this

huge amount with revenues it's it's

almost imposs it's almost impossible we

we talked a lot about grid scale

batteries on their own Standalone what

about collocation in the Netherlands

because you've got all this solar right

and what is there any subsidy mechanism

if you combine your battery with an

generating asset you can avoid these

these high costs and that makes the

business case for at least for

collocated projects for wind energy

really interesting there's no subsidy

Quinton hello and welcome back to

Transmission in this episode Ren Savanah

business lead of system Integrations at

ventalin joins Quentin to discuss the

power system and battery energy storage

in the Netherlands over the conversation

they explore the high grid congestion

and grid costs facing the system the

opportunity for collocation of storage

and much more if you're enjoying the

podcast please sit subscribe so you

never miss an episode and give us a

rating wherever you listen let's jump in

ventas or ventalin which one should we

start with Ventus ventas okay so what

does that mean it's actually a a w a

wind like you have in in France you have

like the Mistral and so ventolin is also

a wind and originally we've mostly been

working in wind energy projects so yeah

that's that's where where the name is

coming from

so Ren want to say a massive thank you

for joining us on the podcast we've got

quite a lot to cover today if you're

listening this is this episode's going

to be a bit like the last Stefan episode

where we went deep into Germany but this

time we're going to go deep into the

Netherlands and took all things Power

Systems in the Netherlands and

especially grid scale storage so and

we've got renz on from ventalin who

really knows this market so it's going

to be a fun one ren do you just want to

introduce yourself and talk a little bit

about the company so yes my name Isen

savaya I work for fent Linus we are an

advisor to large renewable energy

projects so wind energy solar energy

batteries preferably combined and we

advise throughout all phases of a

project so early permitting grid grid

connection uh Contracting financing

construction even Asset Management so we

pretty much help investors and

developers throughout these projects and

what do you do there so I have a pretty

commercial role so I pretty much make

sure we have the work so that we get the

orders and then I select a team to

together with you know the entire heads

of department and we we we do the

project but I'm in the early stage of

projects talking to clients making sure

they want to work with us but before I

mean this is now I have a commercial

role but before I was an engineer I was

a researcher I was Project leader of

some of these large projects myself and

only for the last few years I've taken

up this more of a commercial

role and ventz do you operate you're in

the Netherlands right now but do you

operate just in the Netherlands or do

you cover the rest of Europe so our base

is the Netherlands we've now actually

it's a it's nice to say it's a family

company there's about 100 people here

and most of our work is in the

Netherlands but we definitely work

abroad we've done some really cool

projects in the US in Australia but also

in other European countri countes but

our our our yeah Netherlands is is where

we do the majority of our work and I'm

so excited to do this conversation

because this is the first time we've

gone deep on the Dutch Market on this

podcast and there's so much to cover

could you just talk for a second about

your involvement or vent's involvement

in battery energy storage and then why

why does battery storage matter for the

Dutch energy

transition so at fentol Linus so we are

now working for a huge number of battery

projects I think I counted recently it's

about almost 30 projects and they range

between 5 megawatt to 500 megawatt and

their projects battery projects

collocated with wind energy solar power

plants and of course grid skill

Standalone batteries we can talk about

that later more and why why is this

really ramping up in the Netherlands

right now at least the pipeline is is

that we have this year we have 50% of

our electricity generation is from

Renewables and we have seen a huge

growth in solar over the last few years

and also wind energy we've been steadily

increasing so yeah and with Renewables

as you know you need storage so that's

yeah and also we are our grid is hugely

congested so battery storage of course

have an important role there as well to

play yeah

and let's start really zoomed out and

then then then zoom in so the the Dutch

let's start with the Dutch economy okay

what where which parts of the Dutch

economy are using power and especially a

lot of power is it manufacturing is it

process heat is there a big you know how

much domestic is there is there a lot of

electric vehicles what is the load side

of the Dutch power market look like I

think that's not very different than any

any other European countries it's of

course just general households company

data centers larger

industry but maybe it's good to mention

that still only about at a small

fraction of our energy is still

electrified so the largest part is still

gas but in terms of electricity is I

think not very different from any other

other European countries

and when we did the episode with lar a

few weeks ago it's funny he said that

the European electricity Grid or the the

power grid is the biggest machine on the

planet or something that and it's funny

like I was just a lovely phrase it's all

connected right yeah and yeah I mean

there's quite a lot of chatter on the

YouTube comments and various other

places about whether that was true or

not which was quite interesting but we

how does the Dutch how is the Dutch

power grid interconnected with the rest

of Europe so the the Netherlands has

strong interconnections so with with UK

Denmark Norway and of course Belgium and

Germany so there's

interconnections and also the Dutch TSO

tenet they have plans to expand this

connection and I fully agree with Lars

that one of the priorities of this

energy transition is a strong European

grid and grid

reinforcements inside countries on every

voltage level

medium to high voltage is crucial but

then also the inter the

interconnection so yeah we're pretty

much connected to all the countries

surrounding us what what is the size of

the demand in the Netherlands how does

it compare to Germany or the UK or the

nordics what's what's I'm going to put

you on the spot here what's Peak demand

yeah I think it's so of course it varies

but I think the highest peak is about 17

gwatt so in that order and it ranges

typically on a normal day day somewhere

between I think some think 7 and 14 7

and 15 gwatt that's our our our Peak de

demand and of course compared to Germany

that's very small but we're much smaller

smaller country but maybe what is also

interesting to say is what's you know

the Dutch Energy Mix and how that

relates

to to our Peak demand because I just

mentioned the huge increase in solar

right so

in only I think in only six years we've

we increased from 4 gaw solar to to 24

gwatt so that's 20 gwatt of solar in six

years so every year that's four gwatt

added wow and that's just I mean that's

just a revolution right that's just in

insane and that has of course huge

impact on on on grid and on our Energy

Mix and yeah that's and that's just a

big big change and then and originally

in our Energy Mix there's there's of

course well of course so there's quite a

lot of gas and and coal we have a little

bit of nuclear and then some waste power

plants some smaller smaller generators

but it's mostly gas coal and then

nuclear and then of course now this this

24 gigatt solar and another 11 gwatt

wind yeah is is that onshore wind both

so I think the so the the majority of

our wind generation is still

onshore but now the the growth for

offshore wind in the nland is is huge so

now like I said we have now 11 gwatt of

wind total there will be another 10

gwatt added offshore over the next s

years so I think they have plans to

reach 21 gwatt in 2030

so there's a lot of offshore wind going

to join the Energy Mix yeah and so to if

I've got this correct so to to summarize

roughly 15 to 20 gigs of peak demand to

size it as a as a you know power grid

and power demand and then a real mix of

generation types in there but huge

astronomical growth really in solar and

lots more wind to come and highly

interconnected to

Okay so we've got an idea about the the

Dutch power sector let's talk a little

bit about batteries then so what's the

what can you give an overview before we

get started of the existing grid scale

battery engine storage projects in the

Netherlands is have we got tens of

megawatts hundreds of megawatts

gigawatts what's that what does the

world look like for batteries in the

Netherlands right now so it's a bit a

contradiction because battery projects

are booming in the

Netherlands but we've we don't have so

many batteries operational yet so over

the last few years we we've grown up to

200 about 250 megawatt batteries and

those are batteries ranging between in

size somewhere between 5 to 30

megawatt um those are currently

operational and they are Standalone

batteries uh on medium voltage or DSO

level and then a lot of batteries with

collocated either with wind with solar

with power plants maybe and it adds up

until with 250 megawatt about more or

less I recently posted something on

LinkedIn which shows like all the

projects in the Netherlands on the on

the Dutch map which shows all the yeah

operational projects but also the ones

that are in construction and soon to to

be permitted or

permitted so that's the current

situation why I said it's booming

because maybe just to drop a number at

the TSO so which is the the high voltage

grid operator tenet they have now 70

gwatt of battery projects on their on

their waiting list or or or in progress

of being connected 70 gwatt so that's

enormous and nobody's saying that all

those projects will be realized it just

shows the huge interest and willingness

of developers and investors to to be

part of this transition so that's just

yeah mind-blowing that that probably

leads us on to a question about where in

the Netherlands batteries are best place

to be so the the the market for power in

well let's talk about the pricing so are

prices National or local in the

Netherlands they're National they're

National and and is there a economic or

even a system benefit to have Bates in

certain places how is that being

considered or

managed so no we have one one bit zone

so we have the batteries that are

currently being developed or operational

the first ones so a couple of years ago

they were mostly working for for

maintaining the grid frequency so fcr

frequency containment Reserve those were

typically 1C batteries so they were like

10 megawatt 10 megawatt hour batteries

now you you see that these batteries

that are being built they are towards a

half SE or even a quarter C and they are

moving towards anciliary services for

the TSO or for the more for the

imbalance Market Market or the

afrr and that is currently the so the

imbalance Market is the I think the do

Market currently and then there's the

yeah like Lars explained last time also

it's about day ahead and

intay so you see a shift from one C

batteries to half C quarter C and

they're moving to different kind of

revenue streams and you guys have got

there an enormous uh congestion problem

isn't there in the Netherlands yeah I

mean you guys this phrase that the Dutch

grid is the most reliable in the world

or something like that at least that's

what we try to claim right I I don't

know how you measure that I mean I'm on

boor with it I think I think that's

something the Dutch like to say but I I

mean it's true that our our grid is is

is extremely reliable and we have very

high standards I mean but so do most

European countries it's just crucial to

have a vital economy right but so yes

it's indeed that's something we we like

we like to say but uh also I think we

were one one of the first

countries that really was exposed to

grit congestions so that that grit

congestion and that started out already

I think four years ago we have these

maps that that we like to update uh and

it shows like these red areas where you

cannot have any grid capacity either for

for oft take or or feeding in and

currently if you look at the Dutch map

it's red like there's hardly there's

hardly any place in the Netherlands left

where you can get uh great capacity so

it's a huge problem but what about all

this offshore wind right so so this

offshore wind the the Dutch offshore

wind in the North Sea is going to be

really expensive right yeah because of

the well I'll let you talk about that

why why is why is the why is offshore

wind in in the North Sea for the

Netherlands going to be so expensive and

then what does this do to connection

cues and priorities across the grid

because really you need to get that

power from the sea on the west over to

Continental Europe so how how how are

you guys thinking about that problem so

there's two aspects of of this so so

first of all there's the the enormous

impact on on great cost so we are

building as we we like to call it the

PowerHouse of Europe and not just the

Netherlands but also Denmark and in the

UK and and and there's all these huge

wind farms being built in the offshore

in in in the North Sea

all that power needs to go towards land

but then also towards all these cities

and Industrial zones but let's first

talk about the cost so we have a quite a

big problem because our our grit fees

are really high especially over the last

four years you mean like as in the

tariffs to the consumer exactly yeah

that's good to clarify so it's not just

it's not getting a grid connection but

it's the operational grid fees and in

the Netherlands and most European

countries the off-taker pays for all the

grid cost and because of these huge grit

reinforcements these tariffs have been

increasing increasing and especially

also in 2022 and 23 when gas prices or

Energy prices were so high the TSO they

had to buy they had spend also a lot of

money on on on on paying for all the the

the grit losses and the imbalance so the

the tariffs on the TSO level have

increased by a factor four over the last

year so as in sorry they're they're four

times higher than they were a year ago

yeah yeah so it's at for the TSO so for

tenet so four times so imagine if you

developing a standalone battery and your

you know one of your highest operational

cost is is is is G fees great and in

four years that that number which is

already a large part of your operational

cost if it doesn't multiply it goes you

know up by a factor four and that's now

so currently I looked it up the the what

you pay

annually is about 200k euro per megawatt

so I think Quinton you know pretty much

how much you can make with a battery

right on on an annual basis and it's

about the same as this number so try

make up this huge amount with revenues

it's it's almost imposs it's almost

impossible for for these Standalone

batteries so and that's just not for the

batteries only it's industry it's

electrolyzers it's you know anybody

who's using electricity at high voltage

level they're having huge trouble with

these high grid Dar just a footnote here

is we're actually going to put a link in

the show notes to a LinkedIn post that

you did about grid fees that's um well

worth a look on this but essentially the

the business case uh um is turned upside

down by these fees right yes in if you

would calculate business case of

Standalone battery four years ago I

think you'll be you'll be doing fine and

but and but now it's becoming more and

more CH challenging challenging for

Standalone batteries but

and the our neighbors like Belgium and

and and and Germany they have these grid

fee exemptions so so actually batteries

for quite a long period of time they

don't pay any of these fees that we are

so there's a there's a trend that you

know of course investors and developers

they are you know they are moving abroad

and and and because yeah if you look at

the case for a standalone battery in

Belgium or Germany or in Netherlands

then if you're a large European or

worldwide investor then you go to these

countries so and this is a real like big

National debate not just about batteries

but how are we going to deal with this

huge cost of grid reinforcement and

especially the cost for for this

infrastructure offshore and who's going

to pay for that and it's yeah that's one

of the debates that's currently ongoing

and last week there was an announcement

done by our regulator that they're now

seriously looking into tariffs for

generators so generating assets so

actually wind farms gas power plants and

solar Farms they're actually also going

to contribute to these

tariffs and that immediately leads to a

huge debate of course because you know

if you're a wind farm and you're not

paying anything now then it undermines

your business Cas so it's yeah exciting

something that doesn't really get talked

about much is on a macro scale within

Europe which because Europe is so highly

interconnected there is an opportunity

for particularly Coastal states with a

lot of um offshore wind capacity

potential

to be as you say the PowerHouse of

Europe and the southern states to or

Southern countries sorry I've been in

the US too long Southern countries with

uh huge solar potential also being a

Powerhouse of Europe and it's all to

play for but when it's not a Level

Playing Field on infrastructure and

tariffs that makes it more challenging

what is what is a bit unfair is that if

if countries around the North Sea but

also the southern European countries

generate huge amount of solar then these

countries they pay for these huge

Investments but if you do you mean

infrastructure or do you mean like grid

they have to Great infrastructure yes I

mean the infrastructure U and but if the

Netherlands exports electricity to

Belgium then it's it's not like Bel the

Belgium people are all of a sudden

paying for these infrastructure it's

still they I think and this is also one

of the ideas that that and this a big

European reform that somehow that

whenever you net import electricity you

should also contribute to these

investment cost through tariffs but this

means like all European countries need

to collaborate and some countries they

are hardly paying anything so I think

it's going to be quite a quite a debate

but but but it's maybe good to emphasize

that although we tend to complain here

that other countries surrounding us have

a good you know have have these

exemptions and we don't the Dutch dsos

together with the reg the DSO and the

Tso and the regulat they actually have

come up with quite an Innovative system

which is worth diving into so we don't

have these exemptions but there are ways

to reduce these ter for batteries and

it's quite unique so maybe it's

interesting to to dive into to that

topic do let's do it yeah yeah how you

can still make this business case work

so what they came up with is two things

that are worth mentioning so first is is

is like Dynamic tariffs so and

so from this year the tariffs are not

flat but depending on the season and the

hour of the day you have different

tariff just to be specific here which so

we're talking about batteries connected

to the Grid in the Netherlands and which

tariffs are we talking about connection

tariffs it's it's if you off take

electricity of the grid you you you you

pay for the let's say the operational

use of systems so it's how do you call

it we call it yeah so there use of

system in the UK it's use of system

tariffs uos There's A Duos and a tenos

and Al guos and whatever it's op it's

operational cost that you pay on a on a

monthly basis you pay the grid operator

for the contracted capacity but also how

much you actually use how much you and

only the of only takers pay so the they

they call it Dynamic tariffs or or

variable tariffs that that they try to

incentify you to use electricity when

there's there's a lot of solar or in

certain Seasons so it's which is I think

a great s great thing we should all of

us should become more familiar with

using electricity when it's generated

and we are so spoiled in a way we've

always just been using electricity

whenever we want it at any time but but

I think that's really going to change in

in a new in our new Energy System and

this these like these new this tariff

structure is stimulating you to use

electricity at the right time and

therefore you get some like a discount

on your on your T so that's

one and the second one is that you get a

huge discount on your

tariff if for 15% of the time so 15% of

the time the the grid operator can shut

you down so they can say 15% of the

time right now you don't have access

access to the grid and in return IE up

to5 you they can pretty much say a day a

day ahead so tomorrow you don't have

access but then you get about 50% so

that's 5 z% of the time sorry 5 z% 50%

discount on your tariff so if you

combine these two so the variable

tariffs and this discount in return for

yeah a

downtime it leads to about 75 reduction

of these transport transport costs so

let me get this right so the so the the

grid is saying to battery owner

X look if up to 15% of the time I can

switch you off I want to give you a 50%

production all of your other connection

like tariffs yes that's pretty well it

depend when though right so I assume

they want to switch you off when the

system's congested and is that when it's

Peak demand and is that when prices are

high and that's exactly the time that

you want to be online yeah and for this

I mean this is exactly the right

question so if that 15% of the time is

exactly the time where this battery is

making money right or is it actually the

time that you know batteries probably

wouldn't be doing any anything anyhow

and that piece of the puzzle are still

trying to figure out to get also but we

need a lot of input also from the Tso

and right now I'm in the middle of the

process and also my colleagues are in

the process of understanding that better

and getting a clear answer of tenant the

TSO when what is the likelihood that

that will happen and when and it's still

a bit

uncertain so that's the is this ATR 85

it is it is it's the exactly it's the

it's actually the alternative transport

rights so you get like it's a new kind

of contract and the 85 stands for 85%

uptime yeah yeah that's it so

everybody's talking about that in the

Netherlands and when when do we have an

when do we so can you get that right now

the 85% deal I think it it will you can

you can sign it already now you can sign

this contract now I think it can only be

really implemented in somewhere next

year we we talked a lot about grid scale

batteries on their own Standalone what

about

collocation in the Netherlands because

you've got all this solar right and what

is there any subsidy mechanism or any

regulatory benefit of being collocated

what's the deal with cocation these

tariffs they're so high like I said for

so Standalone batteries they they are

trying to find a way to get their

business case work and and and reach

Financial close at at at you know at at

at high voltage for for super large

batteries but if you combine your

battery with an generating asset like

wind uh and solar or even you know a

power plant or maybe a large consumer

like a data

center you can avoid these these high

costs Yeah

by how do you call it behind the meter

charging and directly charge behind the

meter from your your your your

generator and that makes the business

case for at least for collocated

projects for wind energy really

interesting so we are working on a lot

of collocated batteries with wind

there's no subsidy Quinton there we

don't have any any subsidy any no ceg

subsidy no operational subsidy nothing

the only thing that the government has

been talking about is giving a subsidy

for batteries with solar and but that's

still very unclear so the rules of this

subsidy it's still yeah we're waiting

for it so but that's the only subsidy

that that regarding larger batteries

that the government has been talking

about and what about other stuff like

let's just run through all of the hot

potatoes so capacity Market does the

Netherlands have a capacity Market no

and quite recently so of course LS

explained that Germany they decided they

going to implement the capacity Market

our previous Dutch our previous Minister

decided after consultation not to

implement the capacity Market it doesn't

look like it's going to happen soon here

and I think the the Dutch gas power

plants in the

Netherlands in 10 years from now they

would love to have a capacity you know

mechanism because more and more of of

the time they're just standby right

they're just they're just so they're

they're they have less and less time to

generate revenues and and on the other

hand they're they are still going to be

quite crucial for some time for our

economy so you're already noticed now in

the Netherlands that that the owners of

of these large gas power plant they are

starting the debate about you know that

their yeah their business model is

ending and I can imagine at some point

that's also be going to be quite costy

because we do need them still for some

time and then who's going to pay for

that just to keep them on stand by and

maybe it's not a capacity Market but at

least some kind of capacity like

compensation or mechanism that that

allows them to to to to run a viable

business case yeah I mean in the UK what

happened what so the T minus one so the

one year ahead capacity Market I think

has been really successful because what

it ended up doing was keeping thermal

units online throughout Winters where

they wouldn't have done otherwise and we

really needed them yeah but then the

long-term contracts we ended up what

what we wanted in the UK but no one

would say out loud as we wanted new

ccgts and it's like it was a dirty thing

to say out loud you weren't allowed to

actually say that but we really need

some efficient ccgts and it never really

happened but hey ho that's that's me

complaining about capacity Market done

what so maybe it's nice to mention now

that actually we don't have any plans

for new coal of course we're we're we're

facing out goal I think towards

2030 there's no plans for new gas

but the government wants two to four new

nuclear power plants so this is really

interesting good for them rightly

so yeah you're you're you're in favor of

having more Nu I'm a massive I'm a huge

fan of of nuclear yeah yeah I think it

will be you know in a way it will be

very good for the for the for the

volatility of our market so batteries

will only profit but Society won't I

mean they're just it's extremely costly

and it's going to take way much time

nobody's talking about nuclear waste

anymore so yeah it's fascinating let's

let's go back to batteries so there's no

B subsidies there's no capacity Market

no you guys have got frequency response

markets but the the reserve and

frequency response markets are not

particularly deep right so how how does

the business case look for for Batteries

Beyond well right now with ancillary

services and Beyond yeah so like like I

said also already in the beginning so

fcr is is saturated it's only about 100

megawatt a bit more so people are

looking into other inated services so

afrr imbalance market and then you know

energy trading they had intraday so and

that

obviously you need as I said deeper

batteries so 2 hours 4 hours batteries

the

forecast are always interesting so of

course how how much money you think

you're going to make on these markets

and and it's just

then yeah there's of course experts

trying to give a forecast on on on what

the future will bring and it's like a

how do you say it like a a glass bowl

that you look in and and try to convince

everybody that that's going to happen

but you don't have

any subsidy backing you up so it's quite

a high-risk investment so if they got so

if there's no capacity market then how

is Supply being guaranteed if I was

going to play The Devil's Advocate right

how how is tenant confident that you're

going to have the capacity to get

through the winters so now mostly they

rely on gas I think for the ne for quite

some time they will rely on the gas gas

power plants and then whenever the you

know Sun is going down and there's less

wind then then the gas power plants ramp

ramp up and then there's lar a European

machine that that interconnection using

hydro wind from other countries nuclear

from France it's just a EUR we should

all be connected and bring power shift

power through Europe and I find it very

fascinating to to look at the wind

profiles of European countries actually

wind Europe they just now I really like

it they announc like have a dashboard

where you can see the the generation mix

of each country every day and I try to

look at it every day and what's

fascinating at is about winded it's

always windy somewhere so so if you have

it's always 5:00

somewhere that

too yeah so it's it's it's just great

that that if this European grid is

getting stronger and stronger then then

you can actually really shift load

profiles from one country to the other

and let's just to finish off before we

go to the last two questions to come

back we're talked about a lot of stuff

today but if we're going to kind of wrap

up ins where are the opportunities for

investment in storage in in the

Netherlands we've got this mixed message

which is 70 gigs of batteries in the

connection queue but a country with 15

to 20 gigs of peak demand a ton more

offshore wind coming in highly

constrained grid particularly getting

power from the West to the rest of

Europe so if you're an investor looking

at this Market thinking we need to

deploy some Capital into some into the

right assets how do you think about

answering that question

I would definitely go for collocation

first so I'm a big fan of of sharing a

grid connection so you mentioned trying

to transport all these the the power

from offshore wind towards these

industrial zones it's just crazy

expensive we should bring consumption

and and production together so I believe

that these hybrid energy parks of wind

and solar and and and storage combined

in one grid connection that that's the

best investment and it's also because of

these high grid fees best investment for

placing batteries

now there's not enough collocated assets

to I think grow towards the am amount of

gigawatts we're going to need for

batteries so Standalone batteries are

going to be needed and I confident they

they that we will get

there but if I would you know invest my

money it will be on combining a battery

with wind and solar farm all right you

heard it here first now let's get to

okay this is your chance if there

anything you want to plug or talk about

any news any Services now is your time r

no I don't want to get commercial I

think what what I want to share is that

you know just be excited you know this

this I've been working in this field now

for about 16 years and I I started out

as a young engineer and as a as a

researcher and all we were trying to do

is you know make this technology viable

make it better make it you know more

cost efficient scale up and for a long

time we weren't so sure that you know it

was actually going to happen and now for

these last few years if you see the

exponential growth of solar and wind and

batteries it's just amazing so I think

what I want to plug is that you know if

you're just out of school and you start

working you know this is you're lucky I

mean this is this is these are the

exciting times we're actually doing the

energy energy transition these days and

it's just an actually amazing time to

work in in the field of Renewables so

the thing you want to plug is basically

just Good Vibes Good Vibes I mean I mean

it's really yeah Good Vibes I mean and

if you look at you know the figures of

of growth of wind and solar and

batteries it's just amazing and yeah

just be happy about that and it's not

going to end this this this is there's

no way back I mean there's just no way

back it's just going to continue to

grow we had you I don't know whether

you've met Neil from our team he was one

of our first employees and he runs our

research now but when he you first he he

chose his own job description when he

joined the company and he wanted to be

the vibe curator so Rens you're the vibe

curator for for us and now let's my

favorite question actually is what's

your contrarian view so what's the thing

that so there's Lo there's a dog walking

path behind me there's people I don't

know what's going on but if you're

watching this then hopefully it's it's

it's entertaining so friend now to my

final question which is my favorite what

is your contrarian view so what do you

believe that most other people don't I

love this question it's really nice it

really makes makes you think

so so what I'm going to say is maybe not

that contrarian but I think it's good to

repeat it and maybe I'm in a certain you

know bubble of people who believe in

this as well but I think it's worth

worth

mentioning what I believe is that we can

truly power the world just through

Renewables and storage so I think

there's a lot of debate about that going

on where that's actually possible but I

truly believe that you know this is this

is

feasible and I'm all about

electrification you know everything

should be electrified as much as we can

if it's Mobility I mean it's just insane

what you're what you're seeing now with

with with cars and trucks and heavy

machines and even Aviation and fairies

it's just so electrification heat

Electrify it heat pumps e boilers I

think up to quite High degrees and and

then let's let's try this first make

this energy transition that we're maybe

90% on

Renewables and then the remaining 10%

part which I believe is a lot of it

attention is going towards it like

hydrogen nuclear sorry Quinton but also

hold on hold on hold on you can't put

nuclear in the same bucket

as as as most hydrogen projects most

hydrogen project but also carbon capture

I think we're spending at least like

policy makers are spending too much time

on stuff that of course it's not it's

important but let's focus did you see

what just happened in the UK by the way

we just announced 22 billion quid for

well firstly the new government came in

announced that the previous government

had left a financial black hole of about

22 billion quid and then within weeks

announced they were going to give 22

billion quids worth of subsidies to a

load of projects but primarily yes and

it's just personally that's polit that's

politically very silly to do secondly

it's just not a good it just it

just there's so many things wrong with

it there's so many better ways to spend

22 billion quid yeah and and that that I

think maybe is the last point I want to

make which is maybe a bit contrarian but

what really strikes me is that there's

like a Mis between

what's actual in in actual investment

what actually going on like wind solar

batteries e boilers heat pumps

EVs and policy like it seems like policy

makers there's a Mis mismatch between in

which actually is happening and on the

one hand I find find it very annoying

that there's if you count in the the

number of times that the word hydrogen

is being mentioned in the European

document and the amount of time that

battery is being mentioned it's just

insane but on the other hand there's

like this and I'm again I'm going to be

exciting excited because there's like

this

undercurrent of people who actually know

what they're doing and investors who

actually know where to spend their money

on and that's just continuing and

policies change they they come and go it

varies a bit but the undercurrent is so

strong that this change is just going

forwards and and and and and yeah

there's there's no way back but what if

policy which is still very important

what if it would be actually in line

what is really going on what investments

are actually being uh done right now I

think then what's the word after

exponential I don't know but it's just

going to

so I find that very

fascinating awesome well you bought the

Vibes today Rens so thank you very much

most welcome want to say huge thanks for

joining us on the podcast today we've

covered most things about the

Netherlands power Market but there's a

load more to uncover so hopefully we'll

have you on again when the the market is

grown a little bit and we can talk about

the success of the market and some some

of the outcomes of these things I really

like ATR 85 that sounds like a cool a

cool way of running a grid to me

essentially you're buying a sort of a an

option on your connection which is nice

but yeah thanks for joining us and we're

going to put in the show notes a load of

LinkedIn post so if you if you're

listening to this you want to find out

more about Rens definitely follow him on

LinkedIn check out ventz and check out

these these three particular posts thank

you thanks for having me

qu thank you for listening to

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