Before You Lead, Face Yourself First: The Discipline of Self-Mastery

Why is that such a controversial message? Master yourself.

message? Master yourself.

>> The degree to which you master yourself is the degree to which you'll have permission to serve others.

>> I mean, as you said it, part of me felt offended >> because everything that's in your world right now is simply a mirror.

>> This week, I'm joined by Shawn Low. Sean

and I have been doing business for some time now. She's the CEO of a company

time now. She's the CEO of a company called The Key.

>> Leadership is about calling the unconscious to the conscious.

Why do we have to escalate things that just need common sense? And the work she does is she helps leaders in organizations find a way to lessen the

distance between concept and execution, between what you intend and what you achieve.

>> Here in lies the biggest driver of discretionary energy is when someone knows why.

>> But I I'll ask the question I'm curious about.

>> Mhm. So, who's Shawn?

This is an episode you don't want to miss. Enjoy it.

miss. Enjoy it.

Hello, family. Hello, family. You join me for

family. Hello, family. You join me for another exciting episode of the VT podcast. And here we talk about ideas

podcast. And here we talk about ideas that matter. This week I'm joined by Sha

that matter. This week I'm joined by Sha Low. Shawn and I have been doing

Low. Shawn and I have been doing business for some time now. She's the

CEO of a company called The Key. And the

work she does is she helps leaders in organizations find a way to lessen the distance between concept and execution, between what you intend and what you achieve. If you're a leader leading

achieve. If you're a leader leading people and you want to get the best out of the people you lead, whether you're in a large organization, an entrepreneur, or more especially a leader in government organization today,

this is an episode you don't want to miss. Enjoy it.

miss. Enjoy it.

Sean, so we start every conversation with dad jokes, similar to how we do our meetings. Okay, so I got one for you,

meetings. Okay, so I got one for you, one for me.

>> Here goes. This is for you. What is an astronaut's favorite part of a computer?

>> It's a dad joke. I'm a mom.

>> The space bar.

>> That's good, right? Don't know whether to laugh or not.

>> Or not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do this one. This one's for me. Let's uh let's

one. This one's for me. Let's uh let's see. Let's see.

see. Let's see.

>> Oh, this is a good one. Did you hear about the guy who invented the knock-knock joke?

>> No.

>> He won the Nobel Prize.

>> I have no words.

He finds it very funny. Right, let's get a Nobel Prize for this one.

So if I'm a business, say I'm a business leader like I'm an executive middle to senior management >> and I manage a team of people and I've

had this experience where we go away into like a management boss barat they call it and we strategize and we structure and we do some sort of team building exercise and we come back and

for whatever reason we regressed to the things we were doing the year before.

What do I need to understand about why human beings keep reflexing back to their old behaviors?

Yeah, that's a great question and um I often say team building in the purest sense of the word is not tug of war

and uh boss parat >> right >> team building in the purest sense of the word is building a DNA >> right >> inside of a team >> right

>> that is unconsciously competent >> right >> at the levels that deliver the outcomes that are excellent.

>> Wo.

>> So that sounds very fancy.

>> Yeah. I mean there's a lot of concepts there right?

>> But what does that look like in practical life? We'll see. And this is

practical life? We'll see. And this is the biggest challenge. It's a human challenge. It's not just only a business

challenge. It's not just only a business challenge that human beings are somehow challenged with these invisible forces

that hold us stuck in patterns of >> you know poor performance or bad behavior or really sometimes great stuff.

>> And I think I spoke to you earlier this this afternoon about that that for every behavior or outcome that has a pattern there's a root. M

>> now in a in a human it's a subconscious root >> it's those beliefs >> values >> pain trauma

>> learning hopes >> dreams that drive us and so we often want to make the changes here but changes need to actually happen at a

DNA level.

>> Sure.

And as leaders, our biggest challenge is to understand why the behavior exists and get to the root. Now, when you understand why

root. Now, when you understand why someone is perpetually late and you just take the time to ask why, why are you late? And do not react as a leader at

late? And do not react as a leader at the lateness. React

the lateness. React >> at the driver.

>> At the driver.

>> Sure. And you will learn so much about why team buildings for 3 days don't work >> and why leadership is actually more of a skill

that needs to be harnessed >> than a capacity for growth or profitability.

>> So good >> skill.

>> Let's download that um because you said so much there. You spoke about DNA, you spoke about unconscious competence, you spoke about excellence and then you

spoke about root. Right? So I just want to understand these when you talk about roots

as a person who manages people which people manage businesses which businesses manage other people there's

like a downstream effect right so if I'm to look at the number of people I have an influence over how do I even begin to assess what their roots are

>> yeah and it's That's a great question.

So, we've put together a framework.

>> It's a tested, tried, tried framework.

>> Mhm.

>> Probably a 30-y old framework.

>> Mhm.

>> And really what it does, we call them the the pillars.

>> And it really helps leaders be able to identify a behavior >> and then pull it to the root >> so you can address the root. And I'm

going to give you six of them right now.

>> Go for it.

>> The first one is time and space. M

>> today Sunday >> you and I sitting >> and talking on a Sunday afternoon. We've

created time and space to create value.

>> Gotcha.

>> We had a coffee earlier. We created time and space to get to this place where we can actually have a conversation that adds value.

>> So good.

>> So time and space is critical. This

belief of go go go. No no no that that doesn't serve you all the time.

>> Wow. the quality behind the prep work, the relational gearing. There's there's

time and space that's needed to slow down so you can speed up.

>> So good.

>> Thank you for seeing.

>> So good.

>> And so time and space is a pillar in any relationship. You know, you you can't

relationship. You know, you you can't get to know your kids if you don't create time and space. You you and I would never be sitting in this room if we didn't have time and space.

>> Wow.

>> Time and space.

I love what you're saying because so many people don't know they have the permission to create that.

>> In fact, what people do is they slot themselves >> into things happening in their lives rather than design their lives >> so that the things they want to happen happen. That's so good.

happen. That's so good.

>> And you see, time and space is counterintuitive cuz it feels slow. And

if you're leading from a place of fight or flight, time and space is dangerous.

Feels like a waste of time.

>> Feels like a waste of time.

>> So good.

>> So time and space is slow and it needs it's it's it needs it's a process that needs to happen. And if you if you're if you're anxious or you're just looking for results that doesn't feel right to you.

>> Yo yo Sean, I don't think you understand. There's somebody you have

understand. There's somebody you have just freed with that.

>> Yeah.

>> This is some I think particularly important for let me speak personally now, right? Like there is a stage you

now, right? Like there is a stage you get to where if you move in haste again you will destroy what you have built.

>> That is so good. Oh yes.

>> So there's like a you know there's the whole like quit planning just do it.

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. That works for a season >> and then there's a place you get to where if you do that >> you will destroy what you've built. And

so >> it's almost if you've got to you've got to unlearn >> Yeah. the habit of quick fire draw and

>> Yeah. the habit of quick fire draw and you've actually like a sniper now.

You've got to take your time. You've got

to you've got to estimate and you've got to zone in and hone in. You've got to read the elements so that when you do pull the trigger >> it hits the target. Yeah.

>> If you pull the trigger again and again and again, you should get the same outcome.

>> You should hit the same place with the same outcome. That repeatability thing.

same outcome. That repeatability thing.

>> Repeatability.

>> Oh man.

>> Repeatability.

>> In my business, that's what they pay you for.

>> Yeah. This is what a lot of people don't understand like in my business it's all about repeatability.

>> Absolutely.

>> It's can I plug you into something and the outcome is what it was last time.

>> Okay. So, so the first one's time and space, >> right? Second one is what we call a

>> right? Second one is what we call a unique economic value proposition.

>> Okay.

>> Your UEVP, >> right?

>> And um my partner Errol says it like this. What do you do that the unborn,

this. What do you do that the unborn, the living, and the dead will never do better than you?

>> Oh, wow. So good.

>> Too many of us go to the grave not knowing what's our UEEVP. And that

economic means that your gifting should provide for you financially.

>> So good. It's good.

>> There's none of this where no, no, no.

you know, you you're great at that, but go do a business degree because you need to make money. If you know what your unique economic value proposition is, you'll be able to step into your gift

and it will give you an economic return.

>> H >> and so inside of our teams, we need to know what the uniqueness is. And as a business, you need to position yourself knowing what do I do? What do what does

the key do that the dead, the living, and the unborn will never do better than you?

>> That is so good. So that means the leader has to spend time uncovering >> correct >> the UEVs of the people they lead.

>> Correct. And that means time and space because you've got to spend time understanding your people.

>> That's good.

>> And if they're a fit or not.

>> That's good.

>> Cuz sometimes it's not a fit and that's also okay. They're a fit somewhere else.

also okay. They're a fit somewhere else.

So you do someone a disservice by trying to put them into a system where their value proposition doesn't fit.

>> That's so good.

>> A disservice to them and a disservice to the business.

>> What's the third? The third one is my favorite personal mastery.

>> Okay.

>> And this one is just about, if I got to put it in a simple term, wim control yourself,

master your emotions, master what you eat, master what you consume visually and otherwise. Master how you respond.

and otherwise. Master how you respond.

master yourself.

The degree to which you master yourself is the degree to which you'll have permission to serve others.

You got no business serving people in a in an area that you yourself have not mastered. If you are reactive

mastered. If you are reactive >> and bleeding all over people that didn't catch you, >> you got no business leading.

>> Master yourself.

So personal mastery is about really getting a handle on who you are, what drives you, how you can get better, consistently breaking those glass

ceilings above your own head, managing your trauma, managing yourself, recognizing that feedback's your friend, and don't be scared to face yourself.

Don't be scared to face yourself. Look

at yourself and say, "Hey, I got to get better there."

better there." >> Why is that such a controversial message, master yourself? I mean, as you said it, part of me felt offended.

>> Okay.

>> No, but I think I >> Tell me why.

>> Well, I I think that that would be the response of maybe offended is not the right word, but my >> I think it would be the response of most people in leadership if you said to

them, "Spend time mastering you because >> it's just so much easier to master the thing I'm doing."

>> Do you know what I mean?

>> Absolutely.

>> I run a car wash. Can I just master my car wash? You're telling me I need to

car wash? You're telling me I need to master my habits now.

>> And and really the truth is the quality of that car wash is a direct mirror of what's going on in your internal world.

>> That's it.

>> So that's why you're mastering yourself.

>> That's it.

>> Because everything that's in your world right now is simply a mirror.

Your manifestation in your world is just a mirror saying, "Hey, that's the quality of internal."

>> So good, Sean. It's so good.

>> So if you want to get better, then just master yourself.

>> So if you're watching this and you don't like where you are, before you fix where you are, fix who you are. Oh yes.

>> Start with the self.

>> Yeah, >> that's good.

>> Yeah. Lead from within.

>> Why is that your favorite?

>> So, let me say something that might sting. Hear it from my heart. Having a

sting. Hear it from my heart. Having a

website is not the same as running an online business. These are not the same

online business. These are not the same things. See, most entrepreneurs build a

things. See, most entrepreneurs build a website. They drop in a product image or

website. They drop in a product image or two and then you wonder why your sales aren't moving. Right? That's not

aren't moving. Right? That's not

e-commerce, everybody. That's just

wishful thinking. If you want to actually sell online, you need a system.

What do I mean by this? Well, first,

it's not just for the website, but you need a system for inventory, for payments, for marketing, for follow-ups, for fulfillment, for managing your inventory levels, for managing your

accounting, your payroll. You need a system. Ever since I discovered Ordo, I

system. Ever since I discovered Ordo, I was like, this is a really, really cool platform. And it's kind of like

platform. And it's kind of like supercharged productivity in some of our portfolio businesses, right? Why am I telling you this? Because I think life has gotten pretty interesting off the back of what you can actually do with

ODO. In my discovery, I've found that

ODO. In my discovery, I've found that some of the apps that you use, you can actually use it to build an e-commerce platform. And it's an ultimate game

platform. And it's an ultimate game changer for entrepreneurs who are serious about building their online businesses but doing it efficiently.

See, it gives you the complete store integrated with your products, your stock levels, your accounting, even your CRM. So, everything from where you

CRM. So, everything from where you source data to how you fulfill, you can run a flash sale, you can do abandoned carts, remarketing, all of it built in

to a single system. Why is this important? Most of us who've done this,

important? Most of us who've done this, you know how it works. Like you build a core thing, then you need plugins, then you need coding, then it gets really, really complex. With Odo, it's all on

really complex. With Odo, it's all on one platform. No plugins, no no coding,

one platform. No plugins, no no coding, just a single platform where you can build all of these on a bolt-on plug play. So you don't need programming

play. So you don't need programming skills. As long as you can do basic drag

skills. As long as you can do basic drag and drop, a few clicks, you can actually build your online e-commerce business on the auto platform. And once that's done,

you connect with your payment provider.

Voila, money in the bank, customer satisfied.

I don't think there's ever been a better time to be the creative misfit who's like the really smart entrepreneur who's looking for the thing to do with an idea and you actually want to take that thing to market than has been the case today.

I say to entrepreneurs all the time, there has never been a better time to be us than in this generation. And by the way, you can do all of this on the order platform, including your website hosting

and your support. And the feature that you choose first, you get that feature free of charge for the entire first

year. So why don't you give it a try?

year. So why don't you give it a try?

Start laying the bricks one on top of the other. Start first with your CRM,

the other. Start first with your CRM, then bring in your inventory, then bring in your accounting, then bring in your HR and payroll. Just start.

At the end of the day, you've got to make a decision. How long are you going to know what you want to do and not do it? How long is it going to stay a dream

it? How long is it going to stay a dream and not something in execution? Hit the

link below. Thank me later. Cheers.

>> Uh, that's a good question and um probably because it's the one that I have the most control over

and I've really seen it add value to my life.

>> Okay.

>> I've had to make major changes over the last many years. Sure. Sure.

>> Every time I get stuck for in the business and I go in, I'll get a breakthrough. But that in is not

breakthrough. But that in is not necessarily fun, >> you know. It's humility, vulnerability, >> facing your pain,

>> learning, discipline, 5:00 a.m.

mornings, >> saying no when you want to say yes, saying yes when you want to say no, not buying that when you really want to.

It's discipline. M

>> it's a narrow road >> and so for me it's been the greatest privilege >> to have even understood the power of mastering yourself. I had a conversation

mastering yourself. I had a conversation with a friend of mine, Mike Rador, and um he has this like incredible journey that he talks about, you know, he at a point in time in his life, very

successful entrepreneur, sells his business for $400 million, >> exits the business, >> and then finds himself addicted to things you shouldn't be addicted to, trying to fill the void.

>> Yeah, that's good.

>> What a lot of us entrepreneurs do is we make our businesses part of our identity.

Anyway, so he he he said to me the other day we were chatting. He said um >> so we were talking about discipline. He

says he said he was talking about how important discipline is. And then he said it was the first time I'd heard somebody say it like this and it made sense. He said every decision you make

sense. He said every decision you make is a choice between the higher self and the lower self.

And he says the problem is many people have chosen the lower self so much they don't even know the higher self is still available.

>> So good.

>> Right.

>> Yeah. And and the operative word there is chosen.

>> Chosen. And so he was saying what happens is you get into like this doom loop of lower selfdeisions.

>> Wow.

>> Isn't that good?

>> Yeah. Goosebumps when he's >> Yeah, I'm taking that one.

>> That's a good >> He was like, "So you know you shouldn't eat that, but you eat it and you know you shouldn't do that and you do it and you know you shouldn't be in that friendship, but you are." And you and you and so what happens is you're in this doom loop.

>> Yeah.

>> And then he says, "Reality for many people is nothing more than a series of doom loops stitched together by time."

>> Y. And so when people say I don't like my life or I don't like my reality, what they mean is I don't like the doom loop which is a function of the decisions.

>> And so he said for a lot of the work he does, he works exclusively with men who run businesses that are I think eight figures cuz that's his like niche. And

he's like the first place we start at is we create an avatar of the higher self, >> right? That's really good.

>> right? That's really good.

>> So that when you get to those stage gates, you got to make those decisions.

You go, >> what would the higher Sean do?

>> Yeah. Yeah,

>> like what would the higher do? How would

they approach this conversation?

>> How would they approach that meeting?

How would they approach this opportunity to develop a person?

>> And when he said it like that, I was just like >> that's really good.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> You know what that higher self vision does? It creates cognitive dissonance in

does? It creates cognitive dissonance in the system.

>> Explain that.

>> So what happens is when you see something that doesn't match your internal picture at this point in time, it creates tension. M

>> and so if you're serious about what you're doing and you're wanting to grow that is just what we call creating intentional tension in your system >> that says hey I'm calling you up

>> yeah fix this >> yes fix it and the remember distance will only resolve to the most dominant so if you really don't want to push through that pain you'll just make an

excuse and go back to your lower self >> but if you if you are serious you will push through everything that needs to happen to to get to that to that new place or that new self whatever that you

want to call >> said differently the easier road will always feel like the easier decision >> right >> right the lower road will feel like the easier decision >> it will because natural >> oh right which is what you it'll default

to the dominant >> it's called self-sabotage >> it's so good >> self-sabotage it's hectic and so real you know

>> it's good what's the fourth >> I'm trying to put them in orders here.

So the fourth one would be relationship arrangements.

>> Okay.

>> Every relationship has an arrangement spoken or unspoken. I know that um if I do this the next person will respond

like this. So you know children have

like this. So you know children have these unconscious relationships where they know I'm not going to go to dad for that. I'm going to go to mom for that.

that. I'm going to go to mom for that.

>> That's the best that is the best way to put it. You know yeah my kids know. I'll

put it. You know yeah my kids know. I'll

be like ask Roblox.

>> Yeah. Ask your father. No.

>> Oh, okay. Like, why are you asking me?

You know, because we know >> we we know the the arrangement there, you know. So, there's this unconscious

you know. So, there's this unconscious kind of arrangement that happens, you know.

>> That's good.

>> And so, in a leadership context, it's um can I can I bring my full self to the table here >> without the person that has more quote

unquote power over me?

um causing me to be in some sort of danger.

>> How transparent can I be here?

>> How safe I am? Am I?

>> And that's really relationship arrangements. So, what you're wanting to

arrangements. So, what you're wanting to do in that space as a as a driver of a system that is healthy is you're wanting to really question that and ask those

questions. So, what I do with my team is

questions. So, what I do with my team is I just say, um, tell me what you need to say. The

only prerequisite is be respectful.

>> That's good.

>> But give me the feedback.

>> That's good.

>> Because I don't want to have any unconscious presumptions here of what you think you can and cannot do or how safe you are or >> are not

>> or not. So let's talk about this. Let

let's let's see what you are presuming and let's have a conversation so that we can clear up the relationship arrangement so that there's flow.

>> That's so good.

>> There's no fiction here. That's so good.

>> So that's that's a critical thing and every relationship has that and unless you surface it, what you don't declare has power over you.

You know, it's just like taking a piece of cheese and putting in a corn, it will rot.

Anything that's hidden has power over you. The minute you expose it, you can

you. The minute you expose it, you can deal with it. Leadership is about calling the unconscious to the conscious >> so that we can see what's really going on.

>> Sure.

>> And save ourselves time. Sure.

>> Get to the real work.

>> That is hard.

>> Yeah.

>> What you don't declare has power over you.

>> It's like even um think just let's go to human aspect trauma. The minute you say this happened and you confess that you're free. Confession is for healing.

you're free. Confession is for healing.

That's a whole different conversation.

>> Of course. In other words, you're free of the grip even though you've still got a path to healing.

>> Absolutely.

>> The effect it's had on your life.

>> But now you it doesn't own you. You own

it.

>> Sure.

>> And you can say which way it goes. So it

doesn't have power over you.

>> Sure.

>> So these drivers are all about raising the invisible to visible, the unconscious to conscious.

>> Sure.

>> And when you understand that there's a pattern, let's say there's a pattern of dysfunction happening in a relationship.

You got to get to the driver cuz what's really going on here?

>> Not easy. Why um

why is that difficult?

Why is why is surfacing things we're hiding so difficult? Is

there maybe let me ask the question this way.

Is it is it the case that we struggle to surface things because then we would have to face who or what those things say we are. Is is that the case? Why do

we struggle to surface?

>> I would say yes and no.

>> Okay. So vulnerability

in my definition is voluntary self-disclosure of one's weakest self.

>> Damn.

>> Voluntary self-disclosure.

>> Damn.

>> So now when the way that you see the world is the way that your body perceives the world as safe. If your

bank account, you know, is 10 bar, that's safe. The minute you get to eight

that's safe. The minute you get to eight bar, it's unsafe. You create it back to 10 bar. You get to 15 bar, that's

10 bar. You get to 15 bar, that's unsafe. If you haven't predicted that

unsafe. If you haven't predicted that and created that and then you'll spend that five bar to get back to temple. So

it's all about safety.

>> It doesn't matter what it is.

>> Yo, >> the body needs safety.

>> Yo. Yo.

>> So now >> good. That's so good. That is so good.

>> good. That's so good. That is so good.

>> So now when you start now saying open up, it's not about whether I want to heal or not. It's about whether I'm safe or not.

And so when we start to say, "Hey, let's really look at this and call it, the body feels unsafe." And one of the most precious gifts that I have allowed

myself to experience is pressing into a feeling that is unsafe, knowing I'm going to be safe after that. So it feels unsafe, but that's just the body's way

of saying, "Hey, you're stepping outside of your comfort zone. You're moving past what I know to be true, even though it's good for you." The body doesn't care.

The body just wants safety.

>> It's good.

>> So, how did you know to step into it?

>> So, when I learned about I I did a lot of studying on neuroscience. I learned

about how the brain works, how the body works. I read some great books. The body

works. I read some great books. The body

keeps score. There's some great books out there.

>> Keep score. I mean, score. It's just

great stuff. And I begin to feel in my own system.

>> All right. Why am I out of place? Okay,

I'm out of place because X, Y, and Zed.

So, I begin to apply a lot of the learning to myself first, to my own um experiences, >> and why am I doing that?

>> I mean, at least once a month, I ask myself, why am I doing that?

Why am I responding that way? Why is

that pattern that I don't like >> repeating itself?

>> Repeating itself. M

>> and then I have to go in >> and you just got to ask the hard questions.

>> How do you not crucify yourself?

>> That's a very good question.

>> So let's let's you know if I give you a visual you get you know three circles.

>> Mhm.

>> It's how we live our lives.

>> The first one is who are you?

>> Mhm.

>> The second one is why do you exist?

>> The third one is where you going.

>> If I go back in who are you is identity, >> purpose, vision.

>> Mhm.

>> So we live our lives from identity. So

you will crucify yourself is if at an identity level there's no truth at an identity level you're living from an old framework like what your mom said

you're not good enough what your dad said you're broke you're this you're that you have to be true to your identity.

So if you're crucifying yourself you've got to check that there is an identity that is a lie that you're living from.

>> I hear you. And when you are being kind to yourself, it's because you're living from an identity that is truth.

>> Sure.

That's very hard to do though, right?

Because I would have to be aware of what those identities are in the first place.

>> Yeah.

>> And then aware of what the source of those are.

>> Correct. And that takes time and space.

>> It takes a lot of time and space. But it

also takes a lot of the thing you mentioned earlier, which is going into the place I don't want to go to.

>> Voluntary self-disclosure. Yeah, that's

that's a lot.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. You know,

Vousy, some of the work I've done when I started to, you know, open up to just to myself, not even not even nobody there.

I've had seasons of nausea. my body will go into nausea because of the level that I am disclosing

>> to yourself >> to myself nausea and so this is the thing about this process you know you lead from a place

of who you are you know you don't show up in these beautiful offices and then you become vousy >> no >> you are vousy >> 100% >> this morning when you're brushing your teeth that's who you are >> 100% Right? And when someone pokes your

bear, what comes out? That's who you are.

>> That's so good.

>> Right. So, who you are is who you are.

So, you might as well get better >> because you can only pretend for so long. The body can only stay in a place

long. The body can only stay in a place of >> pretense and I've got it together for so long.

>> Let the crisis hit. Then you know who you are.

>> And I think the the major theme there is those small cracks, right? M it when you grow in influence and grow in leadership society has a way of blasting a

spotlight on you and some people think the spotlight is the literal spotlight but if I work in a large company and I'm a GM in fact let me let me give you an

example on on Friday I had a fellow who came to my office and uh known him for years maybe 20 years and at um he was one of the general managers at the power

utility in the and um and he left and so we're having a conversation, you know, he's doing other things now and he's consulting for companies etc.

And uh and so his time as GM at the P utility comes up. That's when I'd met him. So I said to him, you know, how

him. So I said to him, you know, how were those days? He said, man, it felt like having a spotlight on you, but the light is on 10,000 hertz.

>> Yeah. No, it's proper, >> you know. And I'd never thought that even though in the public eye he's just a guy, but in his professional life

>> the spotlight's like this >> because because of the the weight of the decisions he's got to make.

>> Yeah. I was just going to say the weight. Can you carry the weight of the

weight. Can you carry the weight of the blessing >> and then So there's the weight and then there's the politics.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's not like if you if you don't win there's it's inconsequential. You know

there are people waiting for him not to win so that they can go see see told you told you he doesn't deserve this job right because organizations are architected as pyramids right the further up you go the fewer the roles

and more people want those roles and it's very competitive >> so if if you have a role that I want >> I don't perceive that I need to get better to get the role I perceive you

got to go exactly >> that's a dangerous game >> and and this is where we lose the plot 100%. And he was like, "That's he said

100%. And he was like, "That's he said to me, that's the culture."

>> Yeah.

>> Guys don't wait to get better, they wait for you to up, then they want the job.

>> And so he was like, "It just felt like being under the spotlight." And when he said it, I was like, "Wow, I had never thought that you can just be a general manager."

>> Yeah. With that that amount of pressure.

>> That amount of pressure. That amount of pressure.

>> You know, it's just it's relative. Hey,

everyone's facing some level of pressure. Um,

pressure. Um, wherever you are, wherever you're leading, there's a level of somebody's looking at me, >> you know, and I I go right down to even if you're a housewife at home,

>> somebody's looking at you, >> somebody's watching you.

>> Little eyes.

>> That's true.

>> But those little eyes are the next generation.

>> I love that. What's the fifth?

>> The fifth one is structured process.

>> Okay, >> now we all know this. This is this is the one we all get right because it's the only one that you can see, touch, taste or smell.

>> Right?

>> It's your systems. How sharp are your systems? How sharp or how much clarity

systems? How sharp or how much clarity sits in your systems? Are your systems serving you or what happens is the systems are there for so long we start serving the systems. We we actually forget that we are in control of the

systems. So >> So the structured process says test the rigor the rigor of your systems. >> That's so good. and stop letting them control you.

>> Yeah.

>> If a rule is not working, change it.

>> Change the rule. Yeah.

>> You know, and this is where we get it all wrong. And I've worked in multiple

all wrong. And I've worked in multiple large corporates, you know, and those systems are there. And then you you stress test the system and you say, >> "But who made the rule?" No, but you can't you can't

>> you you can't change that rule. Why?

>> Because it's always been there.

>> Is it serving you?

>> Yes. Yes. Yes. But we can't change it.

Okay. Okay, guys. Well, we're going to just stay stuck here. We're going to be back here next year because the structured process is no longer serving us.

>> That's so good. That's so good.

>> So, you got to test your structured process.

>> I knew this entrepreneur, he created, you know, so >> Yes.

>> the founder. So, yes. Yes.

>> And so, one time he says to me, he and I backstage speaking at a conference and he said, um, I'm talking to him about like, you know, how he built the business and the innovations and the many things. And now I think they're

many things. And now I think they're partly on by clicks. He says to me, one of the major changes he had to make was training his customer service people that it's customer service, not system

service.

And so he says, here's what actually happened. He says he had bought

happened. He says he had bought something, I think, from one of the retailers, and he needed to return it.

So he went. Then when he got there, he didn't have a slip or something. And the

person said, "Well, I can't help you.

You don't have a slip." Mhm.

>> And then he took the thing and says, "But it still has your barcode."

>> Yeah.

>> So surely if you scan the barcode, it'll pick up on your system when I bought and the person was like, "No, >> I need a receipt otherwise I can't help you." You know,

you." You know, >> and and so he says he makes a few noise.

Then the shift manager came. Then

eventually the branch manager came. The

branch manager is like, "Oh yeah, we can do this." Boom. Clink clink there. Get

do this." Boom. Clink clink there. Get

the thing done. Right.

>> Yeah. So he tells the story to go, why do we have to escalate things that just need common sense? But I think to your point, what happens is many people don't know they have the permission

>> Yeah.

>> to get the thing done right, not just to get the thing done.

>> Correct.

>> You know what I mean?

>> Yes.

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>> So, that's a culture issue.

>> We we'll maybe touch on that a bit later. But culture, how agile is your

later. But culture, how agile is your culture? How much permission do your

culture? How much permission do your people feel in your culture?

>> You know, and culture really when the rubber hits the road, culture is an asset.

>> That's that's the thing that's driving your results whether you like it or not.

And if somebody feels stuck at the front front facing and saying can't do it there in lies one of your biggest challenges >> as a leader >> is how do you give that person the sense

of ownership and agency that you can do it.

>> Absolutely.

>> Because that's really what it comes down to. Do they feel they have a sense of

to. Do they feel they have a sense of ownership and agency?

>> That agency is very important. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Hard to do though if you are a boss and not a leader.

>> Yeah. you know that's that's a whole different ball game you know when you you start unpacking boss and leader let's finish the six pillars first >> but the boss and leader thing we could talk for for days on that um Vy because

that is something that really is a systemic issue that needs to be changed >> I get you what's the sixth

>> the sixth one is um purpose >> let me ask you a question you've got three kids >> what's the one question they asked you

between from the time they could talk till about 7 8 they asked you one question what was it >> that's a hard I don't know >> think about it >> um

>> it's one word >> one word the question is one word >> got me wasn't paying attention to I was

not Why?

>> Usually kids at three years old.

>> Don't do that. Why? Yeah,

>> because that's going to happen.

>> And and so you know, you think about why do they ask us why?

>> Well, they ask us why? Because as human beings, we are intrinsically geared.

>> And I say intrinsic. No one teaches you this.

to understand the moral reason of why you must do something, >> right?

>> So, I do this often. I'll go into boardrooms and say, "Give me a second.

I'm just going to ask your receptionist why she's here." And they'll be like, "Why you want to ask?" And I just want to ask her why she's here. And and what do you think for if I go down and I run down to the receptionist, I say to the receptionist, "Why are you here? What do

you think she says to me?"

>> And I promise I won't tell your boss.

>> It's my job. I'm here to make money.

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly. Here

in lies our problem, >> right?

>> Money is a poor poor driver.

>> That's so good. So good.

And yet, sorry, the leaders are walking past that receptionist every day and haven't found the words to articulate.

So she understands. Oh, that's so good.

>> My job here is finished. You understand?

>> That's so good. So, so, so here in lies the biggest driver of discretionary energy is when someone knows why.

>> That's so good.

>> Why they in this organization, why they must get up in the morning, >> right?

>> Why they must do the hard stuff. All of

those good things come with purpose.

>> So good.

>> So purpose is a fundamental pillar for a healthy ecosystem.

Know your own purpose. M

>> no why did God give you breakfasty >> know why you working on a Sunday afternoon >> know your why >> and so when we stress test the health of

an ecosystem and why people you know self- sabotage and why change

is such a big hard hairy thing to do.

It's because often times we are paying attention to the symptoms and not the roots.

>> Of course. So good.

>> The difficulty of course is that you and I are having a conversation which I felt was necessary to have because I know the work you do and and how important this work is for

leaders. The catch 22 though is that

leaders. The catch 22 though is that most leaders don't even know this work is necessary. So, so I would have had to

is necessary. So, so I would have had to have been at a point where I was I was seeking answers to certain questions >> to then go, I actually need to talk to somebody about this.

>> I'm willing to bet the overwhelming majority of people who are in management or leadership positions watching our conversation are not even aware that they should be seeking answers to these questions. Right? And that goes back to

questions. Right? And that goes back to this boss versus leader thing because we are trained to know how to instruct.

So we know how to instruct. Our

management training teaches us how do you instruct? It teaches us the dogmatic

you instruct? It teaches us the dogmatic process you follow >> so that people move within the framework.

>> Yeah.

>> There's not so much work done to teach us how to inspire >> cuz it's painful.

>> It's bloody painful >> and it's long.

>> It means I've got to give a about you.

>> Correct.

>> No, I pay you do the job.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Please make it go away.

>> But you know that's La La Land and the generation that's coming up.

Not the millennials, the Gen Z's, they're looking for purpose- driven work.

>> They they were raised with they had options, >> you know, they they they don't really really need to be in a job. Now, our

generation, we were hungry, okay? We had

to take that TOOK WHATEVER.

NO, >> we you know, there was no options here.

So, whatever the boss was doing, you you were okay with it because you know, your your mandate here was survival. 100%.

I did a I did an interview on um I did a podcast interview with a guy called David. Really smart guy, South African

David. Really smart guy, South African guy, solid asset. Known him for maybe 20 years, if not more, 25 actually. So he says to me, he asks

25 actually. So he says to me, he asks me a question about, you know, what do you do if you're a young person, you can't get a job? And I said, well, far be it for me to say, I think everybody's

experiences are unique. I can talk about my own journey. And I said, "Well, I kind of volunteered myself into a job cuz there weren't any available." And I said, "You know what's funny is people meet you. People are strange. They meet

meet you. People are strange. They meet

you where you are and they think that's where your life started."

>> That's really good.

>> Yeah. So, so some years ago, I met Michael Phelps. Right. When I met him,

Michael Phelps. Right. When I met him, he was the most decorated Olympic athlete in the history of the Olympics of all time. Is still

>> true.

>> Okay. But that's not where he started.

>> Yeah, I know.

>> So if I just meet Michael and I go, "Oh, this guy's a decorated Olympian." I miss the story behind why he's a decorator.

Does that make sense?

>> So good.

>> So So anyway, so he asked me this question. I said, "I'll tell you a

question. I said, "I'll tell you a story." It's a true story. 15 years old,

story." It's a true story. 15 years old, I was living in I was living as as one does with my mom at the time in Benoni and there was a mall that had just been built in Benoni called Lakeside Mall.

the mall's still there and um you know it was tough economically and so mom was like you need to go get a job see if you can get like a part-time job or something like this

>> and she made me write my CV which one does and I'll never forget I spelled leadership positions as leadership possessions >> shame it was rough >> IT WAS TOUGH

>> THESE YOUNG people who have don't understand >> you WERE LOOKING FOR WE DIDN'T have There was none of that >> No, there was a dictionary.

>> There was Yeah, there was the Do you remember that whole the the on on Microsoft you had that clipper looking thing with the eyes on it? It looked

like a paper clipper and it would walk around your document and it says that I g I grew up in the era Sean when if you had a CV, you had a cover page to your CV and the cover page had borders. It

was a serious situation and if you could print that in color, >> you you were styling.

>> You get me? You get me? So anyway, so I've got like this I've got my my CV in my little envelopes as a true story. I

walked the length and breath of all of Lakeside Mall looking for a job.

>> Yeah.

>> Every single store went in. Hello ma'am.

How are you? My name is so and so. I'm

looking for work. I didn't know at the time that a lot of the people who work in these stores are hired by like labor brokers. So even the store doesn't hire.

brokers. So even the store doesn't hire.

They had a labor broker who brought the talent in. I didn't know this. I went

talent in. I didn't know this. I went

and dropped I'm sure someone today can bail me out by by showing an image of that of that CV, right? And it showed everywhere. I was a prefect and I was a

everywhere. I was a prefect and I was a deputy head boy. It had all of >> you know cuz cuz I was looking for the job. And so the point I was making to

job. And so the point I was making to him was when I started working, the very first place I started working, I effectively volunteered myself into a job working for your own. I was like,

I'll I'll let me deliver and if you if you see what I can do, then you'll give me the gig. Right. Now, the reason that's important is because to your point, so when I started working, I was hungry.

>> Mhm.

>> Because my universe of opportunity was this big. It meant that the power

this big. It meant that the power dynamics between me and my employer were in the hands of the employer, not me.

>> Yeah.

>> So, I had to be in the job and do everything I could to stay in the job, keep the job, and just make no trouble.

Right. Yeah,

>> but for younger people, >> you know, they go on Fiverr, they go on Upwork, they go on LinkedIn jobs, they, you know, they can do some part-time thing, they can, and by the way, you know, they don't even mind having two,

three jobs at the same time. You know,

one is two days, the other one is 3 days. You know, they live in this like

days. You know, they live in this like fluid world.

>> Yeah.

>> And yet we as leaders still think we can use those rules to manage this crowd.

>> Yeah.

>> And it ain't working so good.

>> The structured process has changed.

>> Yeah.

And you know there's some fundamentals we'll see that just are timeless.

>> So human beings are intrinsically driven to do good work if four things are in place. Purpose, belonging, growth and

place. Purpose, belonging, growth and then reward and recognition in that order.

>> Nice. So, so if leaders understand that our job now and and this is the thing about leadership today, it really is about understanding human behavior

because the byproduct then is the work gets done and if you understand human behavior then you can you can frame your culture and put those nuances in so that

humans feel invited and then serve as they need to and the structured process is not serving the structured process is serving them. They are not now serving

serving them. They are not now serving the structured process. Because the

minute you feel like you're serving a process, you human beings don't take hold of what they're told.

>> The minute we don't have choice, we push back.

>> Push back looks like procrastination, sloppy work, creative avoidance, all those things. Push back is not I don't

those things. Push back is not I don't want to do this. Push back is I'm going to give you just what you need to get to shut you up >> and no more.

>> And no more.

>> Oh wow. I never thought of that. So if

any environment feels stifled and the leaders are thinking that they're in control, you need to understand you're getting 10% of that person's head space and you're paying for 100.

So you you you've got dead bodies on the floor right now and they're just looking at you but there's no value.

>> Why is that? Say that again. Why do they why would there be this push back?

>> Push back is in any shape or form where a human being feels controlled.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. So if a human being feels controlled in any shape or form, they will push back. So you know, when I was my kids were little, we did a parenting course and they said, "If your kids are

throwing a tantrum, just give them a choice." So I'd go, "Conora, are you

choice." So I'd go, "Conora, are you getting in the bath or is mom putting you in the bath?"

The end result is mine. You get to choose how. And he'd be like, "I get in

choose how. And he'd be like, "I get in the bath." I was like, "Great. Get in

the bath." I was like, "Great. Get in

the bath." So you if you understand that dynamic as a leader, you understand how you can put those nuances into the system to serve everybody, not just yourself.

>> So good, >> but it takes time. T

>> it's good.

>> It takes time.

>> So let's let's let's mature this conversation. So we've spoken about

conversation. So we've spoken about these six factors that are important for the hygiene >> of an ecosystem and how you can optimize how your people perform.

>> Yeah.

>> Let's let's go let's dig a little bit further now. So I'm a leader watching

further now. So I'm a leader watching this conversation >> and I have a team of people who I know can do better than they are doing.

>> Mhm.

>> I just know it.

>> Yeah.

>> I also know that I inherited the current team that I've got. So some of them are people I found in these jobs, right? Um

but I I want to I want them to do the best work that they can >> so good >> do. What do I need to do?

>> do. What do I need to do?

Let's start with your own intent. Be

sure that when the rubber hits the road, that's really what you want, >> right?

>> And that is not what you're saying you want for a specific outcome.

So there's always this gap between intent and you and I had this chat and impact.

>> So you're you're a leader with the greatest of intent. Be sure that that intent is pure >> that you are for them.

start there. And I learned this um 11 years ago. I did a video of myself on

years ago. I did a video of myself on the day that I learned this fy.

And what happened was I and I tell the story. I was at a keynote. I actually told the story. I

keynote. I actually told the story. I

was running behind my husband.

We were jogging 5:00 in the morning and I was having a moan to myself in that moment about

various things that were not being done my way. I'm running behind him and I'm

my way. I'm running behind him and I'm thinking, you know, all sorts of things. So then the next minute I just hear Sean

nothing will change in your world until you can learn to serve and to give without expecting nothing in return.

>> Sure.

>> True.

>> And I was stopped dead in my tracks when I realized that I was doing things for a selfish outcome.

>> I get it.

>> And so what happens? It breeds

entitlement.

>> I get it.

>> Because when you when when the outcome is not coming, it will reveal the intent.

>> You get frustrated, >> right? You get frustrated.

>> right? You get frustrated.

>> Yeah.

>> But then what I did in that moment, I thought, where else am I doing that?

>> And I had a conversation with my team and one of the ladies said, well, you you kind of get the feeling that, you know, it's kind of like shape up or ship out vibe.

I said, I give that feeling. She's like,

yeah, for me it feels like if if we don't tow the line here, >> we're out.

>> I said, okay.

My son, who was eight at the time, I said to him, "Hey, Connor, give mommy some feedback." He said, "Hey mom

you everyone must be here.

And if people aren't here, you don't like them."

like them." >> H.

>> That's what he said to me. I was just like >> I had to remind you >> I came out that week with a bloody nose >> from feedback we see.

>> So I want to circle back to your question around this leader. Check your

intent. People don't catch what you say.

People catch who you are.

>> That's so good.

That's so good.

>> So as leaders, you know, we can play and talk a good game.

>> But who are you? They catch who you are.

All right. So, let's start there. And

then, of course, now you got the greatest of intent. You realize your intent is pure. There's this now gap between what you set out to do >> and what does >> and what manifests, what happens.

>> That's right.

>> And it's in this gap that the magic happens as a leader.

>> Right. So if you've got the greatest of intent, there is a a a journey where you need to walk with tools, resources, the

personal masteries, time is there's stuff that you got to put into this gap that closes it.

>> I'm with you.

>> The more that you are strategic, scientific, and intentional about the journey, it's not wishy-washy, whatever.

It it needs to be a process that you walk intentionally that you measure that you track that you understand what are the levers that you need to pull to get the outcome that you want. That's where

the magic happens. That's where the real work of leadership happens.

>> So good >> is closing the gap between your intent and your impact.

>> That's good. That's good. It's good. I

mean hard to do but but good. Yeah.

>> So, you had this morning jog you had and then this happened and >> you didn't immediately have the tool set to do it, right?

>> No, no, no. So, what happened was, if I may, I don't know if it was the morning run or what happened, but by the time I got back to the gate, I had pulled a

hamstring.

Did you actually pull it?

>> I don't know, but it was sore.

>> And so, and I'll show you the video some at some point in time. I I got on my bed licking my wounds and I put my MacBook

in front of me and I said I started saying I've just seen something about myself that's ugly.

My drivers are self-centered in nature.

I want an outcome that serves me and I will do and be and say anything >> to get that out >> to get the result.

>> Yeah.

So right now as you're sitting here, this is voluntary self-disclosure. Yep,

>> I get you.

>> And so in that moment, I realized there's work to be done here.

I don't value people.

>> I value outcomes.

>> Sure.

Guilty.

>> Get you.

>> I don't I'll drop you at the drop of a hat. If it if you in the slightest,

hat. If it if you in the slightest, shape, or form, >> compromise my outcome.

>> Compromise my outcome.

Yeah.

>> My husband felt it. My children felt it.

Everyone around me felt it.

That was 11 years ago. Fussy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> I have cried more in the last 11 years than I did the the years before because I was so blind. I couldn't care. Damn. I

was living my best life. A performer.

That's the way it's, you know, it's got to be done. People need to show up. But

remember now, I was treating who like that first and foremost?

>> Yourself.

>> Myself.

So I had to do like a proper identity shift. It's

shift. It's >> the prison very few people speak about.

It's not the ones we put others in. It's

the ones we put ourselves in. You know,

people don't tell you about.

Even a simple thing like um last night um the family and I were watching a movie. So we took the day and we're just

movie. So we took the day and we're just like we're just going to spend some time as a family. So, we're watching this movie on Netflix and the the story line is a young lady who when she was younger

was very naughty and she ended up setting fire to somebody's house and people died.

>> Sure.

>> And she was sent to juvenile facility but because she was underage the record was not expuned but it was sealed and she was given a new identity.

>> Oh wow. So she grows up and she lives this new identity >> except in the house she set on fire, she killed three people, a man, his wife, and a child. But they had two children.

The one child was alive.

>> So the child who lived looked for her and then volunteered herself as a

babysitter into her home and wre havoc.

And the dissonance you see in the scene where she realizes, hold on, this person is visiting is is my past visiting me.

>> That gives you the shivers.

>> And the hardest part was so she'd moved on. She's now married. She's got

on. She's now married. She's got

children. She hadn't told her husband who she was.

>> Yeah.

>> So before she can come clean to the person who was endangering her husband and the children, >> she's got to come clean to her husband.

She's got to come clean to the husband and say, >> "This is a lot.

>> My name is kind of not so and so."

>> I got to be honest, as I was watching this, I was like, "This is some white people shit."

people shit." >> My husband says, >> "No black person knowing that."

>> Yeah. When we kill, we kill for real.

>> First of all, if you're black, people definitely know who you are. I don't

know how black people do it, but you can't be black out of nowhere and just make up an identity. BE LIKE, "OH, NO.

YOU are so and so's son." somebody from the township who goes, "No, I know this person."

person." >> Like, you could be RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. LIKE, NO, I KNOW.

PRESIDENT. LIKE, NO, I KNOW.

>> I know them.

>> She grew up in three generations granny's name.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They even they even know your clan name.

I was like, "This is some white people."

No way. We'll see.

>> But the point is, yeah, this like you can just see this moment >> of it just hits her where she goes, >> "Oh, no. I thought I had buried this person

but actually I have not. And so I I say that only to make the point that >> what we don't declare has power over >> tell you and it is it is the worst

prison to live in is um the prison of a lie that you you invented

>> and now you must live into it every day.

>> Every day. So hard to liberate others, right? when you yourself

right? when you yourself >> Yeah.

>> aren't uh aren't liberated from >> liberated yourself.

>> Sure. 11 years of crying to let go of that lie.

>> It was a story. Um

>> I sorry before you I I did a keynote in Atlanta beginning of the year and I saw the the company that invited me to do this keynote actually recently posted the

video of this particular section of my keynote and they posted it with the caption, "Do you agree? share your

comment and what I said was leadership is a mirror.

>> And so the reason people struggle to go from being a boss to a leader is because people struggle to go from holding a glass to holding a mirror.

>> Yeah. This is that is so good. I love

that. That's exactly it.

>> Right.

>> It's exactly it. Yeah.

>> Cuz glass is transparent. I see you.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Leader is I see me.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, and I was saying to them, you you you won't you can't get to the point of leading unless you uncover your demons first. And too few of us are just

demons first. And too few of us are just >> willing to do the work of uncovering those demons.

>> Absolutely.

>> Of understanding the traumas that we suffer and how those traumas infer how we show up from people. Right. Um, one

of mine has had been that um I I infer or inferred but I inferred respect

based on quality of work.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Okay. So if you don't give me your best quality of work >> Yeah.

>> it isn't because you might be going through stuff. It's because you don't

through stuff. It's because you don't respect me.

>> Yeah. Which means I now become offended.

>> Yeah.

>> Rather than go, "Hey man, your work seems to be dropping. Let's understand

what the story." Yeah. Like you could be having personal problems. No, I'm not there.

>> Yeah.

>> I mean, no, you must you must do your best because otherwise you're disrespecting me.

>> Yeah. And that's because you do your best right?

>> And that's because you respect yourself.

>> And so it's just a mirror.

>> Exactly.

>> Yeah. And so then the question became, but hold on. Why is my respect of self contingent upon how I work?

>> Yeah. No, there in lies your work.

>> Good luck. I can support you if you need any help.

>> Start a group. Start a support group.

>> Start a support group as to why I only respect myself when I produce good work.

>> Here's the crazy thing though, Sean. The

world rewards you for that >> I know. That's the problem.

>> Like the world goes, "Oh yeah, he's phenomenal." Oh, you know, they give you

phenomenal." Oh, you know, they give you the applause.

>> Yeah.

>> Yet, to your point, >> even though the fruit is sweet, the root is poisoned.

>> Yeah. Intent.

>> It's so good.

>> Check the intent of your heart. And you

know, I don't believe unless you are narcissistic and have a mental problem.

I don't believe and I'm yet to see anybody wake up in the morning a leader >> with ill intent to cause harm.

>> No. No. Not unless you're sick.

>> Yeah. Yes, you must be sick.

>> And so the then the question begs Okay.

So if that be the case, why is the root rotten?

>> Yeah, it's good. That's good.

>> Cuz sometimes you didn't rot your root, but now you are responsible for the fruit.

>> It's so good. It's not your fault, but did it? We understand. Lick your wounds.

did it? We understand. Lick your wounds.

Go fix your problems. Yeah.

>> So leadership is also about high accountability.

>> Yeah.

>> You got to take full ownership for yourself.

>> Yeah.

>> There is no space for blame game.

>> So good >> as a leader.

>> You have got zero privilege of blaming anybody for the results in your ecosystem.

>> So good.

>> That's it. You know, one of the things I'm realizing about this conversation and it just hit just hit me now is that actually amongst the worst

attributions we give to leaders is position because I just realized now that

position is a lagard.

So you lead long before you're given a position to lead.

>> Does that make sense? It's so important within, you know, if we can teach our children anything, >> start with what you have, where you are, and do it.

>> Don't wait for the approval of man.

>> Don't wait for the accolades. Don't wait

for the limelight. Get going.

>> Get going. Yeah, that's good.

>> That's good because we we do live in a society that loves the positions.

>> Yeah.

>> Loves the rewards. Loves the loves the But the truth is it happens before that, right?

>> Yeah. And those things are not bad.

>> Yes. Exactly. if they are in their correct place >> in the sequence right >> right where the where they sit they need to sit in a space that is healthy but if

it's in the wrong place and it's the focus it can really really create damage >> talk to me about and I'm cognizant of of of how we've woven this conversation

>> but I I'll ask the question I'm curious about >> so who's Shawn so how does Shawn end up working with organizations and leaders

Um maybe let me ask the question this way.

The the work you do is not the work that came with the guidance counselor at school who said oh by the way >> this career. Yeah. Exactly. You know

this there's the lawyer, the nurse, the teacher, the accountant. So how did you find yourself here?

>> Yeah, that that's a great question.

So, you know, inner vows >> can serve you for a season.

>> Mhm.

>> So, all due respect to my parents, I know this is recorded, but I was sent to boarding school at 5 years old.

>> Sure.

>> I went to north of six different schools.

>> Sure.

>> I know what it's like to be hungry. H

>> I know what it's like to be in an environment that is not safe for you.

>> Got you.

>> And I was the person that every time I was unhappy with my circumstance, I would say, "I will never allow this to happen to my

children."

children." >> Gotcha. Gotcha.

>> Gotcha. Gotcha.

>> I will never repeat this. As soon as I'm on my feet, I will do better.

>> You know, right down to I mean, a funny story is I mean, do you remember boarding school days, right? They used

to give us those green sunlight bars. I

mean, that is should be illegal >> to make someone bath with a green sunlight bar. Okay? It stains

sunlight bar. Okay? It stains

everything. It stinks.

>> And and and look, you know, I was raised in the apartate era. We were in colored schools. Things were rough, right?

schools. Things were rough, right?

>> And so, yeah, we were given that. And I

just remember every time bathing with this green soap thinking >> I will never >> I am I am going to change this one day.

>> It may be clear.

>> And so I my first job was a cashier at wars and that time Dove soap had just >> and my first paycheck all of eight bucks

an hour. I took my packet. I went to the

an hour. I took my packet. I went to the food market and I bought me some dove soap. That's so good.

soap. That's so good.

>> And no one was allowed to use my soap.

And the reason I share that story is because there was a picture that was created out of adversity.

>> That said, this will never happen to anybody under my watch.

>> It will never happen to me.

>> And I'm going to change this narrative.

H >> I didn't know the how, but I just knew that there was no space to feel sorry for myself >> and that I had a calling. I had a mandate.

>> It's good.

>> Not to let another 5-year-old feel the way I did at 5 years old.

>> Sure.

>> Okay. So, with that being said, hard work, university, studied finance, and that's why you're saying like how does how do the two worlds come together? I

should have actually studied behavioral science, but I didn't. studied finance

and um I worked under my brother-in-law Gayton Ning >> and he taught me everything I know about business an incredible mentor

>> and um but there came a time where I started upgrading myself I I knew there was more and I could feel there was more and I was leading a team of about 300 people at the time.

>> Wow. And the only time I felt alive was when I was in my stores >> with my people.

>> I knew my cleaner's name, my washer's name, my cheese lady's name. I knew my people.

>> And I remember saying to my husband, the only time I come alive is when I am with my people >> and I'm training my people.

And so I begin to ask for more.

And as as as you know, I wouldn't say fate, as calling would have it, >> um I found myself um rubbing shoulders with an institution at that point in

time called the Pacific Institute, >> TPM, >> and I went through their then flagship program >> and as you know, I'm I'm all or nothing.

I'm in or out, >> right?

>> And um >> I went through the program >> painfully so.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And I'm learning to do it with less dead bodies around me.

I'm learning that time and space is maybe also valuable. Before it was like >> all the way.

>> That's it. And so I'm maturing and growing and and not at the expense of anybody else, you know, that's kind of the the direction I'd like to go. And um

I resigned from my then job. I was CEO of the Ning Group. Ning Group.

>> Sure. Um, and I resigned and I started this business from my dining room table with one

dominant emotion.

Every leader, in fact, every beating heart needs to know this stuff exists and there will be no poverty on the African continent.

>> Wow.

And that really was is my drive for is that it's not about somebody coming to rescue you.

>> It's about recognizing that everything you need is fully available to you.

>> You've just got to be asking the right questions. You've just got to be hungry

questions. You've just got to be hungry enough for it. You've just got to be okay with discomfort. You've got to be okay with with changing stuff and not being stuck and not being greedy. You've

got to be okay with checking your character, sharpening your sword, and and you know that my primary driver is my relationship with Jesus Christ.

>> Amen.

>> Um and so Jesus has literally walked me through some stuff. I mean, him and I have some hard conversations. One of the things I do know is that his heart is

for not only the African continent, for the world, >> but Africa in particular, I would say the heart of God for Africa

>> is for her to find her true identity >> and rise up and not continue these patterns of poverty and pain and generational curses and all of those.

And it starts with leaders.

>> It's in the prophetic. It starts with leaders in the home, >> the mother, the father. It starts with leaders in the schools.

>> Amen.

>> It starts with It starts with anywhere that you are and you are leading. And I

even say to ladies, if you're leading your helper and your guy that's cleaning your garden, you're leading.

>> Amen.

>> Lead. And it starts with the right leadership. And one of the things that

leadership. And one of the things that drive me is that I saw what bad leadership looks like.

>> Bad bad leadership looks like. And I I made a decision that is not what I want.

And that is not what I'm going to carry forward. We have a responsibility in in

forward. We have a responsibility in in in in in my personal opinion. I have a responsibility not to leave the planet the way you found it.

>> You can't just come here, pay your bond and die.

>> Yeah. Sure.

>> Please, >> please. Such a big statement. Eh,

>> please. Such a big statement. Eh,

>> that's what a lot of us get stuck in.

>> Pay our bond and die.

>> Go to the Krueger Park once. No, there's

more that we need to be doing. Those

things are not bad, but those things are not our calling.

>> That is so good.

That is so good.

>> Sure.

>> That's good. Sean,

>> thanks.

>> This thing about um you know, leaving the world better than you found it. And

your comment about about Africa, a friend of mine um Apostle Grace in Uganda, he was in the country some time ago. So he and I were having lunch and

ago. So he and I were having lunch and he said something to me which really stuck. He said you know in most African

stuck. He said you know in most African nations God can gather his warriors in the tens of thousands routinely.

>> He was like and it's true and he said um our brother uh Reverend Julian will host um Rama feast. He'll have 40 50,000

people >> attend >> gather to meet and and and worship >> and um my brother Paul Adifari or my brother Joshua Salman or

>> Yeah. and they'll gather tens of

>> Yeah. and they'll gather tens of thousands of people. And then he said, you know, he does this thing at um I think it's the Colo air strip in in in

Uganda where they meet for service on a Thursday or Wednesday and it's in the sports field. There's no

covering.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. I have watched that service and seen 3 4,000 people worship and it's raining.

It won't work for me.

Not for me though. I would I would not leave.

And >> and so he'll gather like and so and then he says to me, he said um he said, you know, if you go and look in many like nations in the continent, you'll find

this. And then he says, "How come that

this. And then he says, "How come that never happens in South Africa?" And then he's like, "It also never happens in like many Southern African countries."

>> But that's very true.

>> Yeah. And his thing was he said there is a spirit >> that needs to be removed >> right >> and that spirit he said the problem he

was still talking to me he was like the problem was men of faith like you >> have not stepped into the breach where you can challenge that spirit and go >> actually we lead

you don't >> and so he was saying which is the point you're making that all the people I just mentioned led.

Then the congregation came.

>> You see, that's so good, >> right? It's not like there was a

>> right? It's not like there was a congregation there and they just showed up. It's like, no, they led.

up. It's like, no, they led.

>> Yeah.

>> Then the congregation came, you know, >> and you know, it's this thing faith, you know, faith, belief without evidence.

And it's about stepping into the unknown with only either a word from God or a

picture in your mind and prepared to do whatever it takes.

>> No applause, long nights, whatever it takes.

>> Those are the ones that that change the tide of of a generation is saying, "Listen, here I am.

>> I'm going."

and and and not at the expense of your family. And a lot of a lot of the times

family. And a lot of a lot of the times we see this this lack of balance where we forget that the the primary foundation is family.

>> The ministry is in the family.

>> Correct. Exactly. And I love what you said just now, you know, sitting with your family and taking that intentional time to say we're doing this as a family. We don't have to be talking, but

family. We don't have to be talking, but we're just together. But essentially for me it's about that boldness >> um that says you know what I'm okay to

plant the tree >> and never eat from its fruit.

>> That's so good. Last question.

>> Yeah.

>> This is the last question we end all our podcasts with. So you you're free to

podcasts with. So you you're free to take a sec to think about it.

The podcast is called Ideas That Matter >> because my belief is the world we live in is nothing more than a series of ideas made tangible.

>> Love that.

>> This building we're sat in was once an idea.

>> The clothes we wear, the mics we're using. Once you begin to see everything

using. Once you begin to see everything in the physical as something that started before it was the physical, you begin to ask yourself, what is it

that is in my spirit that I don't have the courage to make physical?

>> Because once you can answer that question yeah >> once you answer like that question, often that's where your purpose is.

>> It's like there is a root thing planted in you. It's a seed.

in you. It's a seed.

But that seed, we were talking about this in the family yesterday. So, we've been working on our

yesterday. So, we've been working on our garden. I'm going along about way to ask

garden. I'm going along about way to ask you the question.

>> So, we've been working on our garden all of winter.

And we've got a big garden, but all of winter and um I hate hate fallen leaves

>> and dirty swimming pools. And I hate them because the one time I was the most broke. This is a true story. This is a

broke. This is a true story. This is a true story.

>> You were broke but you were not poor.

>> There's a difference.

>> So, so and this is again you got to do the internal work cuz I got to stage I was like why is it that every time like winter autumn is coming I get anxious and then I realized >> that's so powerful.

>> Yeah. Because because the body >> remembers keeps the score.

>> It keeps the score. And so the minute my my nose equals my nose is like ah danger danger we remember this season.

>> That is so good. Yeah, that is so good.

>> So I hate with the passion fallen leaves dirty swimming pool >> trauma.

>> My kids will tell you like the minute the swimming pool I dad is there going I might be late for work but I'm cleaning this pool. I'm cleaning this pool right

this pool. I'm cleaning this pool right now.

>> I'm not going back there.

>> So I I mentioned this. So, so now we've been working on this garden all of winter and you know gardens are strange things, right? Because they they they

things, right? Because they they they just are what we make them.

>> Yeah. It's so good.

>> Like you can't argue with if I come to your home and your garden is is bad there. There's no excuse.

there. There's no excuse.

>> It's your garden. And so now I look in a beautiful long trees and rose bushes coming up everywhere. And um on the entrance uh the MS has planted hydrangeas there. It looks great. And

hydrangeas there. It looks great. And

I've got this long driveway with these like beautiful bushes. And on the bushes, these like white flowers have started to bloom.

>> Oh, I know. Those are coming out now.

>> Let me tell you. I'm

>> terrible with the names of flowers, >> right? Same. Same. Me.

>> right? Same. Same. Me.

>> You just know they smell nice. They look

nice.

>> It's green.

>> If it has colors, it's a rose.

>> See, please.

>> You know, if it's if it's for pie, it's a lily. Something like that.

a lily. Something like that.

>> That's all I know, you know. And if I'm at wars and I want to be fancy, it's a tulip. That's all I know. Anyway, so but

tulip. That's all I know. Anyway, so but um so we're having this conversation about like how great our garden looks and it just hit me that actually all gardens it's soil.

>> Yeah.

>> Um sun.

>> Yeah. Water.

>> Water.

>> Ecosystem.

>> That's it.

That's it. The and the best garden in the world, worst garden in the world, the ingredients, the inputs is the same >> remain.

So when you're fixing, you're either looking at soil or sun or water and the composition of these, right?

>> And the timing >> and the timing. That's Oh,

>> say it >> and the UVP is it that plant can go in that soil in that time.

>> So good. So good.

>> So that's the power of I mean an ecosystem.

>> So good. And the thing about the season is also learning that when the leaves are falling is the time for the leaves to fall.

>> Correct? And there's nothing wrong with that.

>> And there's nothing wrong with that.

>> Because there can't be a renewal.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Unless you allow that p that process to take place.

>> So here's my question for you.

>> I'm listening.

>> What is the single idea that you hold to be so true that you would die for it?

What is the single idea?

>> Single idea you hold it to be so true that you would die for it. It could be a belief. It could be a perspective.

belief. It could be a perspective.

But you believe it and you will never forsake that belief or that idea.

Um so I have to just trust what came first right?

>> Go for it.

>> So what came first is that it is the heart of the father that no man shall perish. Wow.

>> Tell me more.

>> God's promises are yes.

>> We are the amen.

>> We are the amen.

God's promises are yes.

And God can make a promise to you. But

if you're sitting down and feeling sorry for yourself and not mastering and taking control of your soul, that promise remains.

But it's not coming to sit on your lap.

You've got to master your soul and take hold of the promise.

>> Got you.

>> And so if we look at Africa, let's just talk about our our heartbeat. I do

believe that the heart of the father is Africa has a promise >> and it is not his will that people are

suffering and destitute. It's not the will of God.

and destitute. It's not the will of God.

Sure.

>> So if that be true, what is our role to play?

>> I'm with you.

>> Because we partner, we co-create. We

were created by a creator to create.

>> So good.

>> What are we supposed to be creating?

>> So good.

>> Because creation exists, as you said, the soil, the sun, the water is existing.

>> Everything we need exists.

>> So good. What are we supposed to be doing to leave the planet in a state that pleases the heart of the father?

>> So good.

So good.

>> And that for me, if we can understand that and live that and play our part, I think that we would die and close our

eyes honorably. But you got to leave

eyes honorably. But you got to leave everything here.

Leave your gifts, your talents. squeeze

yourself out here cuz when you get to the grave it's useless.

>> Sure.

>> So that demands a higher calling. People we we a lot of people and myself included I feel like we underlive our lives. We live sloppy

lives. We live lazy lives. We want

lives. We live lazy lives. We want

comfort. We we're not prepared to partner with the creator to create because it's not coming our way.

Everything we need is fully available to us right here. And when I went through that that program 12 years ago, my thing was every beating heart needs to know.

>> This exists.

>> It exists.

>> Yeah, it's good.

He is the yes. We are the amen.

>> I'd never heard it said that way.

>> Somebody said it to me the other day like that and I thought, "Wow." He said, >> "Yeah, >> cuz the yes is certain. The promises

remain. Why don't we see them fulfilled?" H

fulfilled?" H >> well they walked 11-day journey for 40 years. Why?

years. Why?

>> Yeah.

>> He never said it was 40 years. 11 days.

40 years. Why? Cuz they weren't amening.

They were complaining.

>> So good.

>> Moaning.

>> So good.

>> Lack of faith. Scared. Take us back.

Yeah. That's that's how human beings are.

>> So good.

>> They weren't partnering. And sometimes

you got to partner and sometimes you got to be scared and you got to do it scared.

But that conviction needs to be crystal clear. And if more of us had it, Lucy, I

clear. And if more of us had it, Lucy, I don't believe we would have an uneducated child or a hungry child or a destitute child on the planet. It is

unacceptable that the world looks like it does and we have everything we need.

And so for me, I make it my life's mission because if I can influence one leader who's got 4,000 people that is that he's serving, I've done a good job cuz we

can't fix it all. Right,

>> Sean? This has been an enlightening conversation.

>> Thank you so much for the privilege.

>> Thank you for spending your Sunday afternoon with me.

>> Absolutely.

>> And my my my um apologies to the family for taking it away from them.

I will pass over the um the apologies.

And I think we need to get you some more dad jokes.

>> I'm not sure how to Sunday jokes, but thank you for see and um yeah, thank you so much for the work you do um and the lives you touch

>> and for I think I wrote this or I said it in in your 40th video. I said it's a life well stewarded.

>> Thank you.

>> So we appreciate you.

>> 40 turning 29.

>> Che. You keep going and 29 forever brother.

>> That was our conversation with Sean. See

you on the other side of this. Cheers.