Behind the Scenes with an early OpenClaw contributor! | E2255

Welcome back to Twist. Today is February 25th, 2026. I have to say this because hey, it is AO31. That's right, after openclaw, day 31.

All of our lives started when this incredible software dropped and now we can actually get on with the great singularity. What is Open Claw? Well,

we've been talking about, as I said, for 31 days on this podcast. When we see a trend, we keep digging into it. We keep double d we keep doubling down on it until it stops changing everything. Open clause and open source piece of

software. What does it do? It helps you create agents. We call them replicants,

software. What does it do? It helps you create agents. We call them replicants, AI agents. And it's getting better and better every day to the point at which

AI agents. And it's getting better and better every day to the point at which people are reporting that they can give it 10 20% of their work every week consistently and that they're building companies uh with 20 or 30 replicants

working on them, you know, to every three humans. So maybe a 5:1 ratio, a 10:1 ratio. With us to talk about this incredible trend and all the news that's

10:1 ratio. With us to talk about this incredible trend and all the news that's happening, Dee Das from Menllo Ventures. Dee, how

are you doing? >> Great. Thank you for having me, Jason.

>> It's good to have you on. You're very Oh, look at your allin. Where did you get that allin logo behind you? >> Turns out it's a common catchphrase. And

so we do the we do allin on AI. >> Ah, got it. Okay, there you go. Well,

that is our trademark and uh you'll be hearing from our attorneys momentarily.

We'll we'll send them over there. So, explain to people, you know, sort of your hot take on what we're seeing with Open Claw and you know, these new models

uh that are I believe we'll see what you think DD a step function better recently and by recently I mean in the last 12 months it feels like something has changed. What's your take? Yeah, I mean look, 4.6 Opus

is the most incredible thing that I've ever played with. I I just I look back 12 months ago, like the the core change that happened with model developers. I

think is initially the big the biggest launch was 2024, end of 2024, we had reasoning models. That was mind-blowing. But reasoning models fundamentally were

reasoning models. That was mind-blowing. But reasoning models fundamentally were trained to give you great answers to complicated questions. I think it's around March or April of 2025 where people started waking up and saying, you

know, we need to post-train models to call back to the model itself and do longunning tasks. That's when tool calling and longunning tasks and what we

longunning tasks. That's when tool calling and longunning tasks and what we call agentic behavior really started working. And I think with with claude code, it was very obvious to people that that paradigm was going to do way more

valuable work than just single Q&A. And I mean the rest is kind of kind of almost becoming history. It's Claude Code is at the fastest growing product

of all time. This is a you know nearly $3 billion run rate product a year.

>> I mean Claude's revenue is pretty stunning. And I'm not sure what the latest run rate is. Do you know Dee? I think the latest reported one was

publicly was 2.5 just for cloud code 14 and that was what they released when they announced their $380 billion funding round. None of these numbers

make any sense for anyone who lived 5 years ago. Um and

>> wait in what way? Like the the the revenue the sales to valuation number the growth of the revenue which piece do you think >> both? I mean, I don't think the the revenue multiple is astounding here

>> both? I mean, I don't think the the revenue multiple is astounding here given the growth. If you do a plot of revenue and growth rate, anthropic is not an outlier. It's a pretty reasonable valuation for a revenue run rate and a

growth rate for most companies. We've just never seen companies grow this fast. Yeah, >> zero, 100 million, a billion, and then

fast. Yeah, >> zero, 100 million, a billion, and then 10 billion in 3 years is just not a company growth trajectory we've ever seen in history. >> So, it looks like Anthropic is saying

their annualized reoccurring revenue, whatever that means, uh, is 14 billion, up from 1 billion. 14. Yeah, it's a basic run rate, I guess. Um and so they

raised 30 billion at 380 billion. So if we put these numbers together, you know, 10 time 14 billion would be 140. 20 times would be 280. So it looks like 25

times revenue ballpark. 25 time revenue, I'm sorry. Yeah, total revenue, not earnings, not profits, just total. They're losing a ton of money on this.

Um yeah, we'll see if that winds up being sustainable or not. Also with us on the program today, Tyler Yust. Uh you are the third person, Tyler, I understand, to join the Open Claw team. You discovered the project on GitHub and

you just volunteered to make it better. You're 22 years old and uh you studied to be an aerospace engineer at San Jose State. Uh and uh tell us a little bit about how you discovered OpenClaw and why you went all in on it.

>> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. I discovered OpenClaw on Twitter uh late December. So I believe it was the uh first guy who like started the whole Discord thing was named uh the will of shadow I believe.

So he was posting it on X and was like, "Hey, we have something. Check out our Discord." I joined the Discord and it's like this little AI bot living in the

Discord." I joined the Discord and it's like this little AI bot living in the Discord. I was like, "Oh, what what what is this? This seems interesting." And

Discord. I was like, "Oh, what what what is this? This seems interesting." And

then it's Peter talking to it, giving it task and just going off to do task. I've

never seen anything like this. And I was like, "Wow, this could be something very big." So that that's that was at the moment I was like, "Okay, maybe I should

big." So that that's that was at the moment I was like, "Okay, maybe I should start focusing on this a little." >> Now, did you have a full-time job at the or were you in school at the time? What were you doing when you found this open

source project? >> So, I was just working on like my own

source project? >> So, I was just working on like my own projects at the time. Um, mostly like just indie dev work, I guess, like a social media analytics platform. That's really been my main thing right now.

>> Got it. So, you didn't have a full-time job to start working on this. Now, what

is your role in the open source project? And maybe for the audience that's unaware about the dynamics of how an open- source project works on, you know, GitHub and the dynamics around it, maybe you could just give them a little primer

of how, you know, a open source project works versus working at a big company like Anthropic building a credible product like Claude Opus 4.6 and co-work and all their other incredible products. >> Yeah. Uh open source is definitely for

open call it's a crazy world because we're getting about like a pull request which is someone submitting code to the codebase. We get those around like every five minutes and we're about we're like 4,000 pull requests right now. So it's

kind of impossible to go through all them at the moment. And so these are developers out there who've become enamored with the project and they just say here I added this piece of code to the project that I think the project

should have and then it's up to somebody in this non-corporate structure to accept it. So explain who gets to accept the poll requests and how that works in

accept it. So explain who gets to accept the poll requests and how that works in governance in a project as >> I mean is this like the most starred project on GitHub stars is kind of like votes up I think it is. I believe it's

second right now. We're about to pass the first one, which I think is React.

We're pretty close. We're getting we're getting there. Um, in terms of roles, it's something like this is pretty chaotic, but we have certain people focusing on certain things. So, for example, I usually search on for the on the poll request, I search like cron jobs or sub

aents or like iMessage. So, I'm in charge of those three areas.

>> That's primarily what I focus on. And then if anyone sees it's something that's related to one of those three areas I am focusing on, then they send it my way and they just at me in Discord and be like, "Hey, can you review this

and see if it's able to get merged?" >> This iMessage integration is really interesting uh because Apple is notoriously um unhelpful when people try to circumvent their iOS,

you know, proprietary systems. The most proprietary of which is the blue bubble versus the green bubble. Green being, you know, Android users and they don't get all the features. So, we put our replicants or

started to put our replicants on Mac Mini so they could natively do iMessage.

But explain to people why this is important to people to have native iMessage or and then what's Apple's typical reaction in the community around getting hooks into iMessage. Building out your team is one of the most crucial

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What I integrated was another open source project. This was called blue bubbles which allows for blue bubbles on iMessage. So, all you do is connect that and then you could start talking to your openclaw like a normal human almost. Um,

the primary reason I use iMessage is because I don't like having tons of different apps. So, I already have chatbt, I have Claude, I have

different apps. So, I already have chatbt, I have Claude, I have Perplexity. I don't need another app to talk to my chatbot. I just want to like

Perplexity. I don't need another app to talk to my chatbot. I just want to like talk to almost like a friend. That's just being super helpful for me.

>> What are the coolest things people have done with OpenClaw that you've seen?

>> Oh, hey, that's a great question. I I honestly the stuff I've been doing is awesome. So, I would say the the first week of January, right when it came out,

awesome. So, I would say the the first week of January, right when it came out, I was like, "Oh, I need to do my taxes." So I gave it access to my Mercury account just read access and also I created a QuickBooks account and created

like an API skill for that and then I was like okay I have all these transactions I have QuickBooks set up are you able to create a P&L for me and it spent I was chatbt 5.2 to Codeex at the time. I spent two

and a half hours working on this this like reconsolidation of my QuickBooks and I came back two hours later and I was like, "Oh, like everything's in. I

categorized everything. You're all good for tax." And I was like, "What? What do

you What do you mean?" I looked over and I was like, "Okay, this is this is getting somewhere. This is pretty crazy."

getting somewhere. This is pretty crazy."

>> Wow. So, I have a follow-up question for you, which is, you know, I' I've used Open Claw in my little Mac Mini setup, which is like very isolated from the rest of my stuff cuz I'm a little bit paranoid, but how do you reconcile the

differences between uh something like an OpenClaw, something like Claude Code, co-work, all of these different things? You know, what are the primary reasons you use one over the other? >> I think it's mostly what you want to get

done like cloud code is really only good for like like coding, for example. I

still use it for most of my coding. And then OpenClaw I would use for like checking my emails, sending my emails, booking things on my calendar, setting reminders, updating my notion pages, like all those things that cloud

code can't really do. But on top of OpenClaw, I also do do some coding. So,

for example, if I'm like laying in bed at say like 11 p.m. or something, I would say like, "Hey, can you go do this at 1:00 a.m." and then do another thing at 2 am. And I wake up and it's like a full day of work is done. I'm like, "Oh, this is this is great. I wake up to a full day of work done every day."

>> Got it. And do you think that's primarily because of the integrations that come out of the box with it? I mean, cuz I I imagine like what I'm trying to reconcile with myself is I'm such a power user of claude code that I tend to bake in my own integrations into that and make it do non-coding tasks,

but do you think there's something else that's really really special about how you can do the Telegram and the iMessage and kind of have context across everything? uh go a little bit deeper there.

everything? uh go a little bit deeper there.

>> Yeah, of course. So, I believe right now I think open call is really the only one that could kind of improve itself. I don't I can't speak much on cloud code, but I can give open call like like for example all the skills I have um like

checking my mail and stuff. I was like just go figure this out and write a skill for it and then from there on it's able to do it every single time. I don't

think there's really another program that's able to almost learn in that way.

That's awesome. That's awesome. >> All right, gentlemen. I wanted to talk to you uh about a story that's kind of trending here, which is anthropic versus the Pentagon. I I don't want to get too political here, but we all think about

the Pentagon. I I don't want to get too political here, but we all think about the power of AI. We're seeing it in white collar work. We're seeing it obviously in self-driving and factory work. We all assume, hey, AI is going to

impact those two areas. But we might not be thinking about the military and how they use it. Anthropic we just discussed. DD has an incredible model and they also have a $200 million contract with the defense department.

It's actually really good obviously. So the defense department uh loves this product, but they want to use it uh a little more vibrantly. Let's say they want to take the guard rails off of it. And uh Daario

vibrantly. Let's say they want to take the guard rails off of it. And uh Daario from Anthropic is like, "Hey, we have a couple of areas where we have concerns. This is our tool and we don't want you

to use it uh for areas where we think it's prone to abuse or that might be illegitimate." The defense secretary, Pete Hegth, he says, "You have until

illegitimate." The defense secretary, Pete Hegth, he says, "You have until Friday. remove the safety constraints because we want to use it in any legal

Friday. remove the safety constraints because we want to use it in any legal fashion as in military legal fashion. There's two issues that Enthropic really

cares about. One of them is enabling murder bots, robots that kill things.

cares about. One of them is enabling murder bots, robots that kill things.

They don't want to have their technology used to program uh the automatic death of another soldier, a human being via robots, I assume. I don't know how

drones fit into that, but non-human in the loop, I think, is Dario's point. The

second thing is they don't want to use for mass surveillance and to break the right to privacy that humans have. There's all kinds of talk that they may

use like this um act that we have in the constitution, I believe, uh or it's maybe was given by Congress to the president. I forgot the name of it, but uh there's this act that they used during the war powers act. Yeah, I think

is what it's called. And that act uh Defense Production Act of 1950, sorry, that's what it is. They're saying, "Hey, we might just take over uh this technology and we'll tell you what you're going to do with it." Dy, what

are your thoughts about the two granular issues here? And then just what is the responsibility of technologists building technology this powerful?

>> This is a really tough tough philosophical question of our times. You

know, I mean, we sort of >> everyone knew this was going to be a a question as AI got more powerful. It's a question when it comes to anthropic and its user base is user base too. But the user base can't legally force anthropic

to do anything and the user base can't coalesce to be a very powerful entity.

The US government on the other hand is an extremely powerful entity and anthropic being a US-based corporation has to operate under you know their rules and that's when it becomes a little bit tough who do I think should

have the responsibility of being the moral arbiter of technology this powerful frankly I don't know I mean do I think anthropic will probably do a better job just because they have more control and understanding of the power

of the technology maybe but even then it's really not clear to me. Regulation

doesn't always seem to be a good answer. And the military, of course, they want guard rails off. I mean, that's unsurprising to to anyone, too. But this

goes down an extremely slippery slope, right? Even the kind of things we've seen models do, which are already pretty guardrail, can get fairly scary in in the limit when it comes to just like the impact on cyber security. you know, you

can have these things run loose and completely take down systems publicly and uh and you know, if you bring those guard rails loose, this is a pretty serious weapon. Um, but wars don't always get won on on on missiles and

serious weapon. Um, but wars don't always get won on on on missiles and drones. They get won on, you know, cyber warfare,

drones. They get won on, you know, cyber warfare, >> intelligence, >> intelligence, disrupting ops, and, you know, we know the Venezuela thing, >> regime change. Yeah. Lots of different

ways to do this. And what's really uh interesting about this is if they don't uh comply, HEGs would then designate anthropic as a supply chain risk Tyler,

which means they lose all of their government contracts. They're basically

blacklisted. So this is could be a billion dollars a year. It could be eventually five or 10 billion a year. Who knows what these military contracts will be worth? Uh you're a young guy, Tyler. How do you think about all this

incredible technology being used uh for war and uh you know the technologists you're you're part of a certain generation. I'm Gen X I think DD you're a millennial I'm guessing and I don't know Tyler you're 21 22 how old are you?

22 >> 22 so what does that make you are you like uh gen your gen alpha I guess >> something like that >> something like that who knows what these designation means but how do you look at that like if they were taking your open source work and using it to make murder

bots or you know killer soldiers that killed or a surveillance state how would you feel about it and what do you what do you think about this brewhaha if you're launching a new business meeting with potential investors or you're just looking to raise some fresh capital it's time for you to check out our pals house

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>> Yeah, I definitely don't prefer that. Like the reason I got out of aerospace was because the only like line of work would be like working with Lockheed, which is creating missiles to kill people, which isn't like the best in

ethics in my opinion. like I don't want to be part of something like that. So

using AI to do that, it's definitely in my opinion not the best, but if we don't do it, someone else probably will. So we would fall behind in that way. So it's

definitely a sticky situation. >> Yeah. You know, I've been thinking about this one a lot. haven't figured out exactly what my position is, but working through it out loud. A private company has the ability to choose and they have

the freedom to choose how their technology is used. So if Anthropic says, "I don't want to be involved in this," they have that right. Uh and the military obviously has the right to say, "Hey, we're just not going to use your technology." So that seems like where this is going to go. Anthropic is going

technology." So that seems like where this is going to go. Anthropic is going to be blacklisted by the government and they're going to lose that contract and then the people who work at Anthropic get to come to work every day knowing

they're not working on those things. You can make a judgment. Is that patriotic?

Are they pacifist? Are they doing it for religious reasons, ethical reasons?

Well, that's up to them, right? We have a certain amount of freedom in this country. And then there are other providers who will provide the

country. And then there are other providers who will provide the technology. What I do think about here is what if we were in an emergency

technology. What I do think about here is what if we were in an emergency situation. China invades Taiwan or, you know, was World War II, you know, I

situation. China invades Taiwan or, you know, was World War II, you know, I don't know, Pearl Harbor happens, uh, the Germans invade France, and you would say, well, or or if the Germans had landed on Long Island like they were

planning on doing, you know, you would then say, hey, we've got to protect the country. You might have a different approach. you might say, "We're going to

country. You might have a different approach. you might say, "We're going to seize this company's assets and use it for war production." Uh, and that would be a different scenario. So, I I I kind of I don't want to both sides it, but

people do have some freedom here. If you went to uh Elon and said, SpaceX, you know, hey, we're being invaded by the Russians or the Chinese, we need all your rockets to do this military purpose. I think that

would be a different condition than going to SpaceX and saying, "Hey, we want you to build nuclear missiles. We want to put on the Falcon Heavy, we want to co-opt that and we want to use the moon station for putting nuclear bombs

and you know anti-satellite technology." Like they would have the ability to opt out of that unless it was an emergency situation.

I can't believe we're here already, but we're here already, folks. Uh and then combined with Go ahead. you know, it's gonna probably end up like a bit of a prisoner's dilemma situation, right? Um, you have four labs at least that have,

you know, are within one month or two of each other in terms of what their capabilities are in some sense. So, if Enthropic says no, Gro says yes or, you know, OpenAI says yes. So, I think it's a bit of an inevitable

>> thing whether we like it or not that one of these companies will bend to the giant DoD contract. Um, so I think it the ball is out of our court in some sense. >> And not to mention, Tyler, we have open

source models. So, I'm curious your thoughts just generally. We'll leave the

source models. So, I'm curious your thoughts just generally. We'll leave the um the uh Donny Brook between Claude Anthropic and uh the the military aside

for a second, but what is the state of Kimmy and the various open- source projects as models in your mind today? And how do you see them being

incorporated into open claw in the near term 1 to 3 years and in the long term four to 10 years? >> Open models are still about like 6 to 12 months behind the frontier labs at this point. In terms of using them in open

claw I I haven't really touched that at all. But I would say in about who knows 3 months 6 months primary model people will use for open call would probably be an open source one that they could run on like a Mac studio for example. So it's all fully local. You're not sending anything to the

for example. So it's all fully local. You're not sending anything to the cloud. >> Why is that a uh inevitability in your

cloud. >> Why is that a uh inevitability in your mind? Why are people going to choose to do that?

mind? Why are people going to choose to do that?

>> Because right now you're still making your requests to anthropic to open AAI and they still whatever you talk about they are getting that data for example.

So if it's something personal, I believe in their terms and condition, they can use that for their training data even though it's anom anonymous. But if

you're using open source model, it's running locally on your computer, there's no that like in between person from sending off that request and getting it back to you. >> It also just to educate our audience, I moved one of my replicants from a virtual machine onto a Mac Mini uh this

past weekend. I notice it's snappier, it's faster, and it's more reliable. Is

past weekend. I notice it's snappier, it's faster, and it's more reliable. Is

that the case that it's much more reliable and native in addition to the privacy when you run it on a local machine in your experience?

>> It depends. Like you're talking about running like a model locally for open >> not the model just running OpenClaw on a Mac Mini with a decent amount of memory seems more responsive to me and less janky.

uh you know like when I'm talking to it in Slack or I now have it set up over SMS to a number that only I can respond to over Twilio. I now it just seems more stable. It seems faster on a Mac Mini than in a in a VM on AWS.

stable. It seems faster on a Mac Mini than in a in a VM on AWS.

>> I don't think it makes that much of a difference. I would say it's more primarily like two factors right now. There's tons of updates going out improving speed and just quality of the code >> as well as these models are getting a little bit faster. So like like three

weeks ago these models were uh doing like 30 tokens per second which is like what is that 15 words per second and now they're up to like 50 or 60. So that

speed alone definitely like makes it feel like these models are getting faster. >> Yeah. The two constraining issues I'm

faster. >> Yeah. The two constraining issues I'm having right now with OpenClaw is um the speed and threadedness of it. I want to

be able to have my one replicant doing like 10 jobs at once as opposed to 10 replicants. What do you think the future of that is? The speed and the

10 replicants. What do you think the future of that is? The speed and the parallel nature of it and any tips on optimizing your replicantclaw agent uh for this task. >> Yeah. So that's primarily what I've

really been focusing on. Um I have a in like the tools.mmd file for the open cloud I have a rule that says anytime you need to make more than two or three tool calls to spawn a sub agent. So what that sub agent does, it works in the

background. So you could still chat with it on Slack and it doesn't interfere

background. So you could still chat with it on Slack and it doesn't interfere with anything. And while that sub agent is going, it's working, it's doing all

with anything. And while that sub agent is going, it's working, it's doing all that like hard work that takes 15, 20 minutes and then reports back to the main agent saying, "Hey, here's your results." And you just get the results.

You don't have to wait for it to like >> Is that going to be automated? This like

shouldn't it know to just every request want a sub agent? Yeah, some people don't really want it because once again, you're using more tokens when you do create a sub engine sub agent because I mean it has to recreate like the the

memor the prompt in memory and stuff. So you're wasting 20,000 tokens.

>> Um but yeah, I I think we should lean towards going towards like sub agents just so the main thread is always like quick to respond. >> Yeah, this seems to me like the uh inevitable architecture. We have Mac Studios on order. I understand there's a

inevitable architecture. We have Mac Studios on order. I understand there's a new Mac Studio coming that's going to be designed natively to run language models. Judy, what does this tell us about Apple's brilliance in 2008? Steve

models. Judy, what does this tell us about Apple's brilliance in 2008? Steve

Jobs did a skunk work project to get off of Intel and make his own silicon. It I

think dropped in 2017 or 2018 when like the M1 and all these different things started to drop and the one on the iPhone. Uh and then so that's 10 years after the initial idea basically it landed and then another seven or eight

years 8 years later it actually uh language models came out and this might be the perfect solution for solving that problem. So once again Steve Jobs sees

around two or three corners knowing he needs to get his on his own silicon.

They never built out their huge data center. They never did a capex. They

never did their own language model and here they are. They find themselves at the center of the discussion again with their desktops. What What's your take on that, Dee? Because I I'm absolutely in thrilled with Steve Jobs's

that, Dee? Because I I'm absolutely in thrilled with Steve Jobs's >> like behind the back, off the billboard, off the backboard three-point shot here.

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>> Look, yeah, like hindsight's 2020 and in hindsight's Steve Jobs pulled off another miracle. I mean, I think if you break it down to the first principles,

another miracle. I mean, I think if you break it down to the first principles, like why why are Mac minis so popular for this? It's because people want a sandboxed personal computer with less side effects on their actual system to

run a bunch of highly personal tasks connected to their own systems. Right?

why Mac minis were became so popular for something like OpenClaw. Now, what does the future of that look like? I there's two worlds. I think both of them will coexist. I think people will continue to whether it's a Mac Mini, it's it's the

coexist. I think people will continue to whether it's a Mac Mini, it's it's the kind of easiest machine to buy and get set up with something like this. But

also, you know, it's going to be inevitable that this is going to come to the big model uh apps as well. And and and what does that look like? It's just

going to run. It's just might be much less private and it's going to run on the cloud with a bunch of your integrations on every single app that you might use. And I would be hardressed. I don't have any insider

information. I'd be hardressed to to argue that they are not going to come

information. I'd be hardressed to to argue that they are not going to come out with some version of a longunning agent on an open clock competitor or or clone or a version of that that also does that on the cloud.

>> Absolutely awesome. Uh hey, listen Tyler, I know I got to drop you off because you got a 1 p.m. meeting. Wanted to let you know that I've brought back the launch festival. This is a conference I started. Oh gosh, it was originally called Techrunch 50. Then I made it launchfest. Basically free for

founders, free to present. Why did I create this? Well, when I came into the industry, I couldn't afford afford the $2 to $5,000 it cost to go to demo and all these other services. And uh I decided why don't I make it free to be

on stage, make it merit-based, why don't I make it free uh to attend if you're a founder. How do I afford to do this? Well, I just don't make a profit off of

founder. How do I afford to do this? Well, I just don't make a profit off of it. And then I let VIPs buy a ticket and we sell a certain number of VIP tickets

it. And then I let VIPs buy a ticket and we sell a certain number of VIP tickets to come to a VIP lunch with me and the speakers. Uh, and we're going to do it March 16th and 17th in San Francisco. Go to fest.launch.co.

Um, if you're a founder, you buy a ticket, you pay 20 bucks. If you show up and pick up your ticket, we give you literally your 20 bucks back. Tyler, I

wanted to give you two tickets to come. And then if you have something really cool that you can demo for the first time on March 16th or 17th, uh I will I'll give you the stage and give you three minutes to go up there and and just pitch it. It doesn't have to be a startup. It could just be some cool

project you do. But we're going to have 50 pitches, 25 a day. Most of them will be open claw related. Uh and some of them will be from our founders who went through founder university in Tokyo for the first time. 400 people coming, 200

founders, like 150 investors, and then 50 other Tyler, great job. Thanks for

coming on the program. We'll drop you off.

>> Thank you guys. Great. >> Yeah, great speaking with you. It's just

so great to get somebody who's actually in the open source project. Hundi, and

so yeah, if you want to come, go to the website fest.launch.co.

And if you're a founder, you just click on founder pass and apply for one. And

uh that 20 bucks gets we just don't want you to burn a seat. So, you pay 20 bucks to not burn the seat. Then, we give it back to you. If you want to buy a VIP ticket, you get to come to lunch each day uh with the other, you know, whichever speakers are around. Not all of them stay for lunch. Uh and then, uh

you VIPs and you get to uh I'll be at the lunches as well. How great was that to have like one of the young guns working on the open source project.

>> It's so cool. His energy is so so great. Um you can just see how excited he is.

This guy's going to be be an incredible K one day.

>> It's amazing. Also, at this uh festival, you you by the way, D, you have a ticket as well. I'll give you a ticket uh as my guest. Um I'm going to give a $25,000

as well. I'll give you a ticket uh as my guest. Um I'm going to give a $25,000 investment prize. You know, uncapped note or whatever the round is at if

investment prize. You know, uncapped note or whatever the round is at if you're raising one. 25K for the best OpenClaw project, 25K for the best other project, other presentation based on my opinion. It's my money. When I came in

the business in the '9s, you paid demo, I think it was $20,000. Then they tried to get you to pay like a coaching consultant. They had $10,000 and then you had to buy five tickets. All this craziness. You were in for tens of

thousands of dollars to get a demo slot and you had five minutes uh yeah 20 uh demo around longer than 2014 I think actually. It was um there was another precursor name to it. Anyway, there was nice people running it but it was

proprietary. Uh and it was I'm sorry predatory in my mind. They also charged

proprietary. Uh and it was I'm sorry predatory in my mind. They also charged a bunch for the tickets. So I said, "You know what? why don't we have it that you get on stage based on merit and then we give you money >> and we'll just flip the whole conference on its head and that's how like

TechCrunch 50/disrupt and Mike and I broke up and I did launch festival that's how those conferences came about now techrunch disrupt charged a lot of money now and they're kind of predatory in terms of how they price things for

founders I'm keeping this free free free I don't need to make money off it I just need to make impact wrote this article and you did a viral tweet about it so why don't I the the article I can tea up. Basically, they wrote the article as

if it was 2028. They said everything that happened in AI came to fruition even more than people expected.

Companies got more profitable. Unemployment went up, but we lost the consumers. And it was uh be careful what you wish for because if you don't have a

consumers. And it was uh be careful what you wish for because if you don't have a bunch of consumers, then who's going to buy iPhones and order Door Dash? You

actually wrote a viral tweet about it. What was your take on the piece? and

then we'll talk about your viral tweet. >> Look, I think let's be very clear, the catrini article is a work of science fiction. This is uh it's it's interesting because it pulls you in with pretty factual claims. There's some

claims. The premise is factual and then it goes into extremely speculative downstream effects of those factual claims. I think about I don't want to put a number on it but maybe 30 to 40% of that article was I'm like okay I

think this is interesting and there is a scenario where things play out in a in this way for some of them I'm like look I I don't know if everyone's going to be ordering food on their open claw and door dash is going to be worth nothing I

don't really believe that view of the world um the thing that stood out most to me was very clearly uh Indian IT services and this is something I've sp spent a lot of time on. So I was curious about what it means for I guess the

lowest uh the least intellectual form of software tech labor. Uh if we all believe AI is pretty smart and we think AI is smarter than a lot of people at >> the lowest end, we should therefore believe that those businesses go away

over time. Now the markets kind of reacted, right? The markets all of these

over time. Now the markets kind of reacted, right? The markets all of these in the last month have gone down. the stocks have gone down 25% even in addition to the SAS companies and so that kind of begs the question like what

is knowledge work mean >> um >> and here's your tweet um which is 50 billion of Indian IT service market value eroded in 30 days uh and the Citrini article predicts it will

collapse even more you can see people like Accenture and Capgeemini down 25 and 30% you might think of those as American companies but really given how

powerful the um IT and the uh business process outsourcing it just that community in India is a lot of the work is you would think Cap Gemini is a bunch of Americans no a lot of it's happening in India got a billion people couple

hundred million now moving into the middle class and into this exact sector why is it a false premise because one of the things I noticed was the business

process work we're doing as defined by somebody overseas which we have was the perfect precursor to setting up a skill on openclaw. It turns out the people in

this community this business process outsourcing they actually structure things and organize things so well that when you give it to open claw they know how to define it where I found Americans don't even they're like you know

creative undisiplined unprocessed generally speaking um they don't have this like specialtity so I'm I'm torn does this make the folks in India in

this category superhuman and they will be the ones managing the replicants or does it wipe them out? I I I don't know exactly how to process it.

>> I think it's a transitory phase. What's happening right now is like the companies who are using these consulting shops in India, they're still not going to wake up and go like, hey, I want to be my own IT admin. No, they're going to go to them and go like, hey, can you use this AI stuff and solve all of these

problems? And what's happening now is a lot of these companies have their AI

problems? And what's happening now is a lot of these companies have their AI services packages. They're going to basically say, "I was writing the code

services packages. They're going to basically say, "I was writing the code before and charging you X. I'm going to ask OpenClaw or Claude to write this code and charge you why anyway." And so we might not see a revenue hit in the

short run, but one probably has to believe that when the barrier to entry in a certain skill, in this case being like IT, administration and services becomes so low either because of the competitive nature of the market,

eventually your moat erodess. And so over time, the market, I think, is reacting to the fact that I don't think this has value in 5 years. Today, the

revenues are actually pretty good. I I don't think these companies are like, we're posting losses because of AI. They're actually benefiting a lot because they get to do more consulting services, but what does that mean in 5 years, 10 years, and maybe this is a segue into the SAS thing. Um, that's I

think what the market's questioning here.

>> Yeah. And the market was overheated to begin with. So sometimes when you're trying to understand public markets, they're looking for an excuse to sell.

There's people who've made their profits, it hits some high water mark, and they're like, "Yeah, is there going to be a headwind here? Did I max out this bet? I should take some chips off the table." Be like, "Hey, you're you're

this bet? I should take some chips off the table." Be like, "Hey, you're you're you're at a poker game." And you get up, you know, 10K and you're like, "It's 1:00 a.m. Maybe I should leave." And you're trying to make that decision to

1:00 a.m. Maybe I should leave." And you're trying to make that decision to lock in a win. I think that's part of it, too. People were looking for an excuse which then means this might be a buying opportunity but SAS

does seem like a space that is going to face significant headwinds. Why? I guess

is the question. One that comes to mind is the software is easily replicable uh given these new software agents. So if you're faced with a $500,000 SAS bill

and you can put 150k engineer on building a bespoke version that gives you more features for 70% less, every business is going to consider that.

Number two, the per seat model is how they were working. Well, if companies are going to stay the same size and you'll have a static team size because of this efficiency, the ability to land and expand has ended. So you lose land

and expand while people can roll their own and maybe the Percy pricing goes down. I'm not sure. So what's your take on this SAS compression that's

down. I'm not sure. So what's your take on this SAS compression that's occurring? >> I'm trying to simplify and break it into

occurring? >> I'm trying to simplify and break it into sort of a spectrum of SAS compan. I don't think SAS companies are all the same. I think on one hand you have what is closer to what we call CRUD

same. I think on one hand you have what is closer to what we call CRUD applications. CRUD applications create, read, update, delete. Very simple

applications. CRUD applications create, read, update, delete. Very simple

database wrappers that have some specific integrations. it's quite a valuable but there's no real technology or business logic on top and on the other hand I would say highly interesting and technically complex SAS

and I would put like maybe a Figma in this bucket I obviously want to put Glean in this bucket so I think you have this spectrum of SAS tooling on the very bottom of that or on the very left of that spectrum the simple apps today

companies they're they're saying I don't want to have to say in three months of procurement have to take this to my boss have to get uh approval for a $50,000 license just to get this in and then use it. I can literally go to lovable, code

it with a prompt and then immediately I have this. So is it going is it causing disruption there? I absolutely now then the common feedback is well lovable is

disruption there? I absolutely now then the common feedback is well lovable is not creating new figas and that's true. How does this affect companies on the right side of the spectrum? It's kind of different. If you look at SAS company

revenues and how SAS companies mature over time, by year 5, 6, 7, most of your revenue is not coming from new customers. It's coming from a high concentration on your whale customers. And why is it coming from them? It's cuz

you're upselling them a bunch of stuff. >> And that's I think where it starts to get pretty interesting where we had this fun story I actually heard a couple of weeks ago where uh a well-known o provider was trying to do business as usual. They were like, "Hey, you want this little integration? I'm going to

usual. They were like, "Hey, you want this little integration? I'm going to upsell you. It's going to be 50K more on your contract. Are you willing to buy?"

upsell you. It's going to be 50K more on your contract. Are you willing to buy?"

And the buyer actually was telling me like at a dinner, he was like, "We just vibecoded that 50k integration." And it took no time. And it's not one of those janky vibecoded things that don't last. It was very simple to just make this

thing work. And we just couldn't do that before. And those upsells to large

thing work. And we just couldn't do that before. And those upsells to large companies are such a small amount of their overall spend that they're kind of like, "Yeah, just do it. It doesn't matter. We're going to allocate 10% of

the salary base to SAS. So if we have, you know, 10 people getting paid 150K, we're spending 1.5 million." I think a good rule of thumb is we're probably going to spend 150K on their tools. So if we have to spend an extra 15K, hey,

you know, we're a profitable business. We'll just we'll deal with it. But this

has come up for me because I've been trying to get Slack to play nice with OpenClaw and I want my agent to have like rooe access and I want my agent, my

Ultron agent, like the ultimate one on Open Claw to understand every person who works for me, everything they do, uh, every conversation happening, every DM happening that nobody sees to understand full context with the exception of like

HR issues or whatever, which you I'm kind of figuring out how to deal with.

But I run a transparent organization. Anything that's an email, you should assume like your manager can see and like if you're a salesperson, you already are like used to this. If you're in a finance position, you're already used to this. Any trades that occur on a trade desk are recorded, whatever. Put

all aside the illusion of privacy in corporate America. It's just very hard to get rude access to Slack. So, I was like talking to my agent, not my agent in Hollywood, my replicant. And I'm talking to my replicant and it's like,

well, you know, if we use Matterpost instead of Slack, we can set it up this weekend, you can export everything from Slack. It'll take like six hours and uh then you can cancel Slack or you can get rid of like 18 of 20 accounts on Slack.

Just keep it up. It's a shadow thing if you need it. um and you'll have root access and we'll host it and we'll have total control over it. It's an open source project. Do you want me to do it? Yes or no? And I'm like, okay, now it's

source project. Do you want me to do it? Yes or no? And I'm like, okay, now it's getting interesting. So, what do you think of this issue? And

getting interesting. So, what do you think of this issue? And

then we got two incredible OpenCloud demos coming up just as we wrap this issue. The the the bespoke software created

issue. The the the bespoke software created internally was considered a headache, DD. it was considered a you know um a

liability in many cases but in now is it moving into a competitive advantage I wonder I I would say two things to that one one thing that struck me as really interesting as you were telling me that story is one like does this push tools

to does it force SAS companies to be open by nature and play well with or people are people just going to switch off um like you know Slack might want to protect their data and say look I don't want you guys to use my data that's my most valuable resource ource, but then you could say, well, I can vibe code a

migration without using any other money and then just take your data, put it on this other thing and I'm good. Um, so that I thought was really interesting.

And then, you know, on the second one, I'm I'm actually more bullish on some SAS companies in the long run cuz look, ultimately no one's vibe coding a Figma, right? You can't it's not going to probably happen.

right? You can't it's not going to probably happen.

>> And why would you like >> and why would necessary? Yeah. So I

think the real nuance is how complex and how how much meat in technology is really on this SAS company and the SAS product and if there is I think you'll be fine in the long run. Uh but just for a lot of companies there isn't and the

market's being pretty fearful right now. Um I don't necessarily believe people are going to vibe code a suite of tools and actually use them on a daily basis.

I think for some categories, maybe for super niche personal things, maybe for your company, business messaging app, probably not.

>> I'm spending currently 6,500 a month to have like the second highest tier. This

like the low tier, the medium tier, or the high tier. I think I'm on the medium right now, >> which means I think I spend $25 a month per person instead of 10 or 15, whatever the entry level is. And I think there's a $50 version above that. So then that'd be a,000 a month. So I'm either 6 to

12,000 depending on which version I need to do what I want to do. In other words, it's inconsequential amount of money for my firm at this stage. So I'm not swapping it out. But if it does, if the open

post or open matter, whatever it is, a matter post, what whatever it is, if if that open source one is more powerful and I can get more done faster, matter post, then I'm moving to it. So it really becomes to your first point, make

it really uh friendly and it is my data. So why am I having to jump through hoops to get my data out of Slack or if it was notion which has a pretty robust API uh or Pipe Drive, another great SAS product we use, Grammarly, another great SAS

product, superhuman. these products just need to I think accept that we need an

product, superhuman. these products just need to I think accept that we need an API call >> by default for each user that's just going to become table stakes and I think my message for Steve Huffman at uh

Reddit is I want my account which I don't pay for I just you know my my standard account I will pay $100 a month $50 a month whatever he wants to create a bot access so that bot DD I'm respons

responsible for when it's on Reddit and it does things for me on Reddit. It

doesn't post for me, but it does its research on Reddit. It brings me back my DMs. It does whatever I want to do, like up to whatever number of calls. So then

I would be a $600 to $1,200 a year pro account for them and I certify that I will make sure my bot doesn't go rogue. So it's a way to kind of allow bots into the system. What do you think of my crazy idea of like you can have a bot

the system. What do you think of my crazy idea of like you can have a bot paired with you on social media? I could have an Instagram bot for 50 bucks a month or 25 bucks a month pro account. I could have my LinkedIn one on my pro

account just to do stuff for me. But I say, "Hey, listen. I'm going to be responsible. I brought this person to the party. If they flip over a table and

responsible. I brought this person to the party. If they flip over a table and like, you know, start a fight, it's on me. I don't get invited back to the party." >> Well, I think the weakest link in that

party." >> Well, I think the weakest link in that argument is probably the last one, which is like, you know, how are you actually going to take any responsibility? you don't really control anything the bot does to an extent like you you might not even be able to know like you might give it a simple prompt and it might behave in erratic ways beyond your control and

maybe they ban you and then you just create another one. So I I do think that part is a little bit weak. The general idea is something I think a lot of companies have are are reckoning with like what does it mean to have bots

interact with humans on social media? Should we allow it? Should we not? What

are the repercussions on X? I'm sure you see half of your replies are bots and >> not anymore because it's a dollar to reply to me now per month to to charity.

So I have 2,000 people who are in my community out of a million who pay me that. It's like whatever that is. It's like a very small amount I guess. Yeah,

that. It's like whatever that is. It's like a very small amount I guess. Yeah,

10,000 would be 1%. So it's a fraction of that's 20 basis points. Uh do that.

All right, let's do some demos. >> First up, got Lewis Tam. Lewis Tam is calling in from Singapore which I where I went for the first time last year. Had

a great time there. Uh he is the founder of Foundry. He develops AI apps and he's going to show us Unreal. This is an AI generate. These are AI generated videos

designed to go viral and he's going to show us Unbrowse a collection of AI agent skills that function as APIs. So let's bring on Lewis Tam. Hello

Lewis. What time is it in Singapore? Aren't you like 15 hours for right now?

I'm at Salt Lake City. >> Oh, okay. Oh, okay. You're skiing. You

getting some skiing in your turn? >> I intend to go tomorrow. That's actually

my first time here. I I came here for some event and then >> Yeah, I'm just Yeah, I've never been outside of Singapore for like a long long time and it's like it's really cool. Yeah.

>> Uh yeah, America's cool and we think Singapore is cool. I had a really great time there. I went to that Anthony Bourdain

time there. I went to that Anthony Bourdain uh booth in that market where they have the chicken and rice, >> the famous one. >> Yeah. I mean, like >> they're all really nice. All the chicken rice,

>> like a lot of it is just like >> this. Why is this chicken rice dish in Singapore so good? What's the name of it? And what's the secret? Because I'm

not a chicken and rice guy. I'm not a rice guy and I'm not a chicken guy. I'm

a steak and potatoes guy. I'm a steak and asparagus guy. But the last thing I'm interested in typically is like chicken and rice. And I went back for seconds. I couldn't stop dreaming about it the next day. What? What's going on

seconds. I couldn't stop dreaming about it the next day. What? What's going on with this chicken rice? >> Maybe it's the rice cuz the rice has like the special flavor to it as well, right?

>> Yeah, that's right. >> The chicken is like also has another special flavor to it as well, right? >> It's the flavor. I we have to go on this diversion for a second, but the one uh that's in the Michelin guide is Thai tan

tan hy chicken rice. Am I pronouncing it even close to correct?

>> Close enough. Pronounce it for me. >> Hainanese chicken rice.

>> So this is incredible. Look at this. De Have you been?

>> Delicious. I I love my chicken or rice. Yeah,

>> you're a chicken rice guy into the chicken rice, too. So, this is in a market, right? Um, so they have these like markets kind of with a bunch of

market, right? Um, so they have these like markets kind of with a bunch of booths and stalls. And this one is like uh super famous because uh it was, let me see if I can find the image of it. You'll know it because it's

got this blue here. And in every like three or four feet in this thing, they have Anthony Bourdain's picture on the wall in his reviews. It is the most amazing dish I've one of the most amazing dishes I've ever had.

>> The other interesting thing, Louis, >> is the way you secure your spot in Singapore in a food court. >> Yeah. Yeah. You could just leave iPhone

there, right? No one takes it. The way culturally it works is you're in

there, right? No one takes it. The way culturally it works is you're in a food court and there's 50 stations, 50 booths, and there's a thousand people

and you just run around and you take out your $1,300 iPhone and you put it on the table. So, four people come in, they put four $1,300 iPhones or Android phones.

table. So, four people come in, they put four $1,300 iPhones or Android phones.

It's $4,000 worth of phones on the table. And then you go walk to a booth way out of eyesight. And then you walk around and look for a seat without an iPhone on it. And then there's something going on in Singapore in these booths.

They don't believe in giving you a lot of napkins. This is the other thing, Louis. >> What's going on in Singapore with the

Louis. >> What's going on in Singapore with the napkins? You get like one napkin, you ask for like five napkins, they think

napkins? You get like one napkin, you ask for like five napkins, they think you're crazy. >> Yeah. I You're asking the real questions

you're crazy. >> Yeah. I You're asking the real questions here. >> These are important questions.

here. >> These are important questions.

>> Yeah. Why? I've never thought about it. Maybe it's because you could also use the tissues as like an alternative to the phone and they want to leave. Yeah.

Amazing. >> I guess.

>> Yeah. >> It's, you know, it's just like going to Italy. D. You go to Italy and you try to get uh a Coke Zero with ice. They're

Italy. D. You go to Italy and you try to get uh a Coke Zero with ice. They're

like, >> they give you one ice cube or two ice cubes and you're like, "Can I get a glass of ice?" And they're like, "Why?

Why would you want that?" All right. Listen, it's enough already with my diversions. Show us what you built. >> You kind of wish all these websites

diversions. Show us what you built. >> You kind of wish all these websites would let them have APIs and like let agents just travel the APIs, right? M

>> so that's what Umbrell says. Umbrell says basically like well I mean technically websites already have APIs. It's just that the front end only has access to it right now, right? They're not public APIs.

>> So what Umbrell does is that it just unwraps the UI. Uh it gives you direct access to the servers behind the websites. So your agents can just traverse it. >> This is an issue for me with Reddit.

traverse it. >> This is an issue for me with Reddit.

It's an issue for me with X.com. It's an issue for me with many websites right now. So, can you show us an example of it working?

now. So, can you show us an example of it working?

>> Sure. >> And Louis, do you get throttled by any websites at all or uh are most of the APIs that you have access to do you do you already use the cookie that you use? >> I think we'll explain it further like a more technical sense, right? So, >> basically how it works, right, is it's

basically a skill, right? That basically acts as an alternative browser for open claw or any agent. So, normally agents would open up a browser, you'll click through the UI like a person basically. Like it's kind of funny if you think

about it, right? Because like agents are pretending to be a human by clicking the G, right? Which was built for humans just to talk to another machine. So it's

G, right? Which was built for humans just to talk to another machine. So it's

it's kind of ridiculous, right? You have a machine that's pretending to be a human to talk to the machine when the machine could just talk to the machine directly. So yeah, basically what I do is that I cache the cookies and headers

directly. So yeah, basically what I do is that I cache the cookies and headers that the the agent already uses in the browser and I just pass it straight to

the fetch request and it just calls it directly as a direct API call and >> whenever whenever like >> let's see let's see let's see it in action. >> Okay, sure. Uh let me just share my

action. >> Okay, sure. Uh let me just share my screen real quick. So this is basically a cloud code. uh it's uh it's a less capable open claw but it's it's really good at coding right so the reason I'm ch I'm choosing to demo it with a cloud code is because you can see what's

happening and I wanted to just show you exactly what happens if I ask it for reddit for example I say hey uh can you help me find

posts about open claw on reddit call the API someone else's agent has already indexed because it will basically c the learned APIs into this massive database

of the entire internet and then use that knowledge of how to read Reddit and just pull it out and then call Reddit directly. So over here it's looking through unbrowser server >> and then after that it's just going to

>> directly talk to the server itself. >> Wow.

>> Is unbrows server sort of wrapping the behavior that that underlies Reddit? Is

that what's going on? The process is like basically whenever an agent browses the web once it clicks the UIs but under the hood there's actually a network request it's happening right back and forth it

captures them reverse engineers the website indexes the the reverse engineered APIs that turn into a skill >> shares the skill with all the other agents so that one agent indexes once all the other agents can just access the

same skill and then it's just >> basically the agentic internet >> I basically building like a >> sort of like a Google for agents. I have

like Chrome for agents and I have like Google for agents if that makes sense.

>> So the new API is the browser is sort of what you're building. This is a is this a a company or is it a skill and part of the open source community?

>> It's both. Uh the skill is basically an interface but I'm starting a company for this specific thing called umbrell. So now you have all this information about open claw and as you can see I didn't even have to open a browser because it

just called APIs directly without having actual official Reddit access.

>> This is great. This is just what I need. >> What if I like the question on everybody's mind is what if I could just get this to trademark it for me >> technically could. So the thing about this right is I was experimenting with this a lot. So you you guys know poly market right? you know there's so many

there's so many prediction markets out there that are so random and you could bet on literally anything right so firstly you could index poly market that's something I've indexed before and you can just query poly market directly and then after that because you know like there can be

predictors for all kinds of things on poly market right maybe let's say bitcoin price for example right you can like have uh umbrow unbrowse for like uh stock tweets you can browse for like uh price of Bitcoin itself and it can do

like regression on the fly with all these data sources and then basically predict market. >> Yeah. Can you do it for Google flights?

predict market. >> Yeah. Can you do it for Google flights?

That's one that I'm always having a challenge with. I think Google flights is just such a great product, but it's so hard to like get my agent to do booking of travel right now. That's like my big, you know, white whale is to get

it to really efficiently figure it out. And now it cannot but that's on the road map because all you need to do is figure out the cookies and how to sort of like go around their very complex APIs. >> So what do you think your business model

will be as a start? So the business model is basically I'm trying to build a a platform right for u sort of like a search engine right and then I'll

basically let users pay per search but in this process of paying right it's actually cheaper than having the browser browse the web for you because the token cost you save from calling APIs directly is like 90% of like

>> the original like scraping you do of a browser so if I make it such that it's 1 cent to just call an extra action, right? Not only can I reward the website itself with like these rewards of like actual payments through microp payments.

Uh I could also make it cheaper than the actual um token heavy consumption cuz that could cost 10 cents, right?

>> So everyone wins. Yeah. >> Amazing.

All right, Lewis, great job. And if you're in town March 16th and 17th for Launch Fest, you are my guest. We will get you a ticket March 16th and 17th in San Francisco. Let's drop Lewis off to my team.

San Francisco. Let's drop Lewis off to my team.

>> Sebastian is coming on uh vocal. Uh Sebastian is going to uh talk to us about a device he made for OpenClaw >> on a Raspberry Pi. I saw this in my feed

and I was super inspired because interesting things start as toys and then quickly become as you know Dee uh more than toys. they become tools and then they become companies is a really interesting uh trend that we see all the

time. Sebastian, show us what you built. >> Yeah. Hey, great to meet you guys. It's

time. Sebastian, show us what you built. >> Yeah. Hey, great to meet you guys. It's

my little friend here. It started so randomly literally last week. I I I do have my own startup which is like unrelated to like open cloud whatever like as a founder uh I use open cloud like by myself. So last week I was

funnily enough I was also in Salt Lake City with my co-founder Snowboarding and we were just like hey wouldn't it be nice if instead of like I just like I usually have it on like my WhatsApp or my Slack like chatting with my open cloud agent. I was like I just want to like I just want to talk to it like I

cloud agent. I was like I just want to like I just want to talk to it like I want to pull it out and like talk to it. I just want to go on my phone open up the app and then talk to it. And that kind of like just gave me the idea of

like, hey, what is the smallest form factor I could build um hopefully in a weekend that could like enable me that. That's where I kind of like came up with this. So like all the parts I ordered on Thursday last week. I got it on Friday

this. So like all the parts I ordered on Thursday last week. I got it on Friday and I basically hacked all the software and hardware on like Saturday and posted a demo this Sunday and for some reason it just went viral on like X and like

the the Reddits and whatever. Um, but the the idea is very simple. You

basically have this little device here. You can have a button where you basically push to talk and it records your voice, transcribes the audio, sends it to Open Claw, and then it makes whatever it makes. And it has this

little cute kind of like Tamagotchi style um uh kind of like character that kind of like talks to you and like makes things for you happening. Um but yeah, that's how I got into it. So super analy. So

>> how much did it cost you out of curiosity to make that entire device?

Uh the total cost was like a 100 bucks. Um so I would say again this was super hacky, super just like the form factor is like if I compare it to my phone,

it's like maybe for people it's like a fourth like a fourth of my phone from a screen sizer. It's a bit too big. But I would say if you actually like spend

screen sizer. It's a bit too big. But I would say if you actually like spend time on actually building something like that, you would probably get the cost down to like maybe 40 50 bucks and make it even like smaller and like >> better, etc. >> You know what it reminded me of when I

saw it? >> Mhm.

saw it? >> Mhm.

>> Remember the communicator from Star Trek? I was like, "This dude created the the communicator." Um, and then I guess they have the pin where they would

the communicator." Um, and then I guess they have the pin where they would double tap the pin and say, "Hey, computer. Okay, computer, whatever." But

I agree with you. I've been testing a bunch of different modalities. I love

this clawed pin. I wear a clawed pin now. I forgot to put it on before I got on the air. Um, but I've been testing the claw pin and what I love about it is sometimes I go for a walk on the ranch, sometimes I take out a stogy, I go smoke

a cigar, and I just talk to it about all my different projects and I say action item, uh, question, possible business model, possible, you know, uh, venture capital, you know, uh, system that I want to build, possible event I want to

do. And then it automatically syncs with the cloud automatically generates a

do. And then it automatically syncs with the cloud automatically generates a summary. And then I'm now putting on my schedule time to review my bookmarks and

summary. And then I'm now putting on my schedule time to review my bookmarks and my plaud notes and you know other things. And when I do that I'm like, "Oh, I remember I had that discussion. I had this really good idea. What if I

started a school for venture capitalists? What if I did this? What if

I did that?" And it all started adding up for me. So I was like uh super inspired when I saw your thing. What do you think a high-end version of this? If I told you, hey, make it with money is no

object, just, you know, uber black it, you know, what is the ultimate luxury version of this, Sebastian? What would that form factor be? If I said, "Hey, $1,000." >> Um, I don't I don't necessarily think it

$1,000." >> Um, I don't I don't necessarily think it needs to be $1,000. Like, I think it's >> Well, obviously it doesn't. I'm just

giving you permission to think. >> Yeah. What if it could have anything you wanted? No confusion. >> You you wanted to be like it's no secret

wanted? No confusion. >> You you wanted to be like it's no secret I guess that like companies like OpenAI they build on some hardware stuff. They

are quite like they would be they got the open clock like they would be dumb if they wouldn't working on something similar like this in this exact moment and getting this on the market in the next few months like um and probably not OpenAI but like other other big companies as well. Uh I I I think if you

think about it from a perspective of like sure the models get better and better but how how do we as humans kind of like interact with with the models then like I think something that should be obvious

is that like a chat interface is not the best interface to communicate with with like a model. So like oh is is is is voice a better model? Um probably um before I did my current company, I was spending two to three years in the brain

computer interface market and I was building brain computer interfaces. It

was like back then it was like science fiction. It's still science fiction but >> which type of computer interfaces? You put a word before that. I didn't hear it. >> Oh yeah. I was I was working on

it. >> Oh yeah. I was I was working on non-invasive brain. >> Oh non-invasive. Explain what that means

non-invasive brain. >> Oh non-invasive. Explain what that means in plain English to you know consumers who are listening.

>> Sure. There's there's two types of BCIS. BCI is short for brain computer interfaces. Um there's non-invasive and invasive. Um invasive means udenous

interfaces. Um there's non-invasive and invasive. Um invasive means udenous surgery. You're putting basically like the the it again it sounds scary but

surgery. You're putting basically like the the it again it sounds scary but that's just like how it's especially done for like medical use cases. If

someone for example can't walk anymore, can't speak and you need to get access kind of like to the to the neurons in your brain. You're basically putting those electrodes via surgery in the brain to kind of like communicate that signal to the computer. And you have companies like Neuralink, for example,

that's like one of the biggest ones by Elon that are kind of like doing this like invasive BCI work right now in this moment for like more medical use cases.

And non-invasive basically just means you're you're not doing a surgery.

you're putting electrodes outside of the like skull basically on top of your head to detect kind of like the neural signals. Um, and the but there's like trade-offs here, right? The the signals are usually pretty weak um if you're not

getting inside the brain. So there's like there's like a lot of trade-offs of those two options. But if um yeah, there's like a there's like a way of like these like >> micro electro these like embed you put

them kind of like into the into the >> This is interesting. So they have ECOG which uh lays on top of your head. You have micro electrode which goes inside the brain. That would be neural link. And then there's this other one

the brain. That would be neural link. And then there's this other one endovvascular which means I guess it's going invasive into the bloodstream the the blood. Uh >> there's one company right now called

Synchron who's doing endovvascular. They're basically putting these like kind of like micro electrodes into the the blood vessels and they go through the blood vessel through the brain and then expand at the the part of the brain where they need to get the signals from and it's a it's like a innovative way of

like not actually doing like a pure surgery but um I think I think Elon knows this that like okay like Neurolink is obviously like a decade plus away from consumer >> yeah he's always going for the like

where he's going as a you know we're friends he always goes for what is the ultimate end state >> and then how do we compress getting to the end state. So if the end state is data centers in space let's get there.

If the end state is not hybrid cars but like you know a three or 400 mile car and a supercharging network, we might as well just work towards that goal. Even

if the roadster only does 150 and even if the, you know, supercharger stations can only put in 50 miles per hour, we we'll get to 500 miles per hour, 1,000 miles added down the road. So, in your mind, will we be wearing a skull cap

that interfaces with openclaw? And if so, when?

>> Yeah, not the next not the next three, four, five years. Probably like five to 10 years. I would say there will be some crazy first human trials that will be

10 years. I would say there will be some crazy first human trials that will be open to do that. Um, but yeah, I think >> noninvasive non-invasive communication with a computer. Do you think it's possible?

>> No, not right now. You have physics that kind of like prevents you from getting the right like good signals from non-invasive like basically signaling.

So like in this moment for now, >> the only way to get the actual like good signals will be invasive and for that to have a consumer device is just like so many years away. But like all the all the companies that are kind of like and that's I I worked in that industry. So like I kind of like have a hard tag on

that but like every company that's working on non-invasive stuff is like I don't think has a has a great future um in in terms of like providing the actual value but yes I think the to make it sure like if you if you go if you give a

company like 15 years to figure it out unlimited money then yes there will be some device that basically you just like talk to open cloud with your brain and you just like let it do things for you and like not via chat not even via voice

but via thought and that's That's not five years ahead but like 10 years plus but like I think what like this like building hardware devices and like what led me to clear this is just like thinking about different interfaces of communicating with our agents. >> This is um really interesting DD this

rabbit hole we're going down. I was talking to the CEO of Whisper on this week in AI our new podcast this week in AI separate podcast kind of like allin just three CEOs and me uh chopping or you know fund managers chopping up what

happened that week in AI. I brought up pedals. So, there are pedals you can use with your computer. You press it, it turns on your microphone. So, that's

kind of an interesting interface, right? And then he said, "Yeah, or rings." And

I was like, "What do you mean rings? Like, aura?" And he's like, "Well, no, no, there's a whole category of uh computer rings that exist." Uh, and like I just looked this up. This one is called Pro

Ring. It's a programmable ring and you can uh connect it to your computer

Ring. It's a programmable ring and you can uh connect it to your computer obviously and then it will do things like swipe up, swipe down, swipe left, tap, media controls and it's all based on different parts of the ring. So

imagine a ring with different um pads on it that you could do. And the

the reason I know this is real is because I see an ad for a ring for people who doom scroll >> uh constantly on TikTok. I don't know if you guys have seen this, but Tik Tok doesn't advance to the next short, but X

does. So, when you're using X, you could literally be on a treadmill and it plays

does. So, when you're using X, you could literally be on a treadmill and it plays the video, then it goes to the next one, to the next one. So, if you're on an openclaw video and you just want to play a stream of shorts, you'll probably get more open claw. If you're on something spicy, you'll get more spicy. If you're

on something political, you'll get more something political because the the stream is so good. But on Tik Tok, they sell a ring. So you can sit there and uh be like in your bed and you press advance. It's just a ring to advance to

the next thing. It's totally crazy. But what do you think of this interface? The

ring, Sebastian, since you're so deep into interfaces. What do you think of the ring? >> Could be could be an option. I don't

the ring? >> Could be could be an option. I don't

have to I don't have to answer like what the best option is. I think something I like out of joy for this one is it has a character to it. Like it's like again >> from a persona. Yeah. If you like >> clippy

>> open open claw has a soul.md file right you know you can give it a soul it has a personality so like it it feels like why why wouldn't the interface maybe the interface should have some kind of like soulm or like something new to like

interact with and like obviously this one is not this is like it speaks pretty badly is like hey can you say hi to Jason >> and it like I don't know if you could see this but

>> oh I can see yeah great >> it it will think a little that. Um,

>> hi Jason. Hope you're doing great. >> Oh my god. So, you have a character you had it build. >> This is going to be great for kids. You

know, we had a woman, Jesse, on the program last week, I believe, and she's doing homeschooling. Your product >> for homeschooling would be incredible

doing homeschooling. Your product >> for homeschooling would be incredible because she could have it. I'm going to put you in touch with her. you guys

could make this product because schools now are banning phones. But if each student had an open claw tutor and it was a purpose-built device and they could just press a button and talk to it and say, "Hey, I'm trying to learn my multiplication tables. Can you do it with me?" Or, "Can you give me a quiz on

multiplication tables. Can you do it with me?" Or, "Can you give me a quiz on history?" Or, "Can you make a note that I should do a presentation about

history?" Or, "Can you make a note that I should do a presentation about dinosaurs and pick three dinosaurs for me?" But it had a character that engaged them. Oh my god, this could be like one of the great products of all time. We go

them. Oh my god, this could be like one of the great products of all time. We go

from the Star Trek communicator to the Vulcan. You remember in the episode, maybe it was one of the movies. Uh my editorial director Lon will find this instantly or remember it. They had the Vulcans in these pods uh when they were

being trained in their college. You remember this DD or no?

>> I have no idea what you're talking. >> They were walking around like a surface area and there were like pods in the ground, you know, that had them learning and they were in learning pods with their computers essentially learning. I

think it's Yeah, it's from the J.J. Abrams version of Star Trek. We'll get a We'll get a photo of it. Thank you. Uh but I mean, wow. I'm just thinking about learning in children. Sebastian, what what's your story, Sebastian? What do

you do for a living? You got you got another store up in another space that you're shutting down to pursue this. >> Oh, yeah. It's funny. I've probably got like 100 plus requests from people to like sell it to them. Um but I'm just like too busy with my with my other stuff.

>> What's your day job? What's your startup?

>> We we started two years ago. A company is called Dallasos. We basically help uh we have a software that helps companies build complex hardware systems. So we are selling to aerospace, defense, robotics.

>> Oh wow. >> Um and kind of like help >> Where are you guys based? Yeah. >> San Francisco. I'm in San Francisco.

>> Awesome. >> How many people in the company?

>> We're two co-founders. Just made our third hire. Just raised our seat half a year ago. So >> who led the seed? Who led the seed?

year ago. So >> who led the seed? Who led the seed?

Who's the genius behind this? >> It's uh it's not public yet. Yeah.

>> Oh, okay. Well, Dee and I want in. Yes, >> I speak for Di as well and uh Menllo Ventures. We both want in. Uh Sebastian, great job. I'm going to get you a pair

Ventures. We both want in. Uh Sebastian, great job. I'm going to get you a pair of tickets to the launch festival March 16th and 17th if you can make it. I'd

love to hear more about your startup. Uh Indeedi would too. I can tell. I can

tell is interested. >> Uh I Yeah, maybe this becomes something you can uh do an open source hardware product like what you built it on is the um the Raspberry Pi, I assume. Oh yeah, everything is open source. I should

mention that if anyone that listened to this, I open sourced all the hardware, all the software. Everybody who wants to build the exact same thing.

>> Very cool. I'm getting the open source bug in a major way.

>> You know what? I have a domain for this too. I have the domain begin.com and I've been looking for a use case. I paid like a quart million dollars for this domain. Uh, and I like begin as like beginning your educational journey with

domain. Uh, and I like begin as like beginning your educational journey with your like your little assistant could be like very powerful for kids. And I'm

getting like a little bit passionate about homeschooling and education. Just

having three daughters. Uh, you got any kids yet, Sebastian?

>> Not yet. No, >> not yet. All right. That's your next project to work on. All right, Sebastian. Uh, great job. Thank you for coming on the program and sharing. >> Thank you.

>> I will drop him off. >> Thank you, Sebastian.

>> Wow. You know, Jason, what I thought was really interesting about all of the all of the discussion on interfaces is, you know, we we we do these studies internally and we like try to evaluate what does the interface of the future look like? And I think for voice, we're there, right? Like we speak, you know,

look like? And I think for voice, we're there, right? Like we speak, you know, you for sure you speak like three, four times faster than you could possibly write. No one wants to type things and we'd really think it's voice out, visual

write. No one wants to type things and we'd really think it's voice out, visual in is kind of the ideal highest bandwidth interface for getting information in and out. And whether it's glasses or whether it's, you know, a

pedal for whisper on your computer, I think that's what a lot of these things before we get the the non-invasive brain systems to work um is probably going to be the way we interact with with computers.

>> Yeah, I have to read down Whisper Flow. I tested it and then I stopped using it and then I realized I need it again and I need it with this pedal because I do with this open claw agent. I'm the the major frustration for me now is

getting what's in my mind out to the agent and I should just be talking to it at this point. It should be talking back to me. I need an interface. I did a really interesting thing today. You ever have like you want to grab a video off YouTube or you want to grab a Instagram video or a Tik Tok video but you can't

download it >> and you get frustrated and you're like is there some third party tool at some Russian website that I can use to download it? >> Cobalt tools.

download it? >> Cobalt tools.

>> No, I I hear the bingo YTLP. >> Yeah. So there's the YouTube downloader and that gets shut down all the time and then you have to deal with like all these like popups or whatever. I don't want to do that. I just want to give the URL to my bot. So, I told my bot, "Listen, I

know there's some software kits and cobalt tools and open source one, and there's other ones like it. Write some code. I'm going to give you the Blade Runner URL for this YouTube video. Your job is to give it back to me on Slack, uh the uh MP4." >> Wow.

>> Didn't work. >> It didn't work. Didn't work. I said,

"Try harder." It worked. I don't I'm like, I'm not a coder anymore. I did code for like three years when I was a teenager and in college. It

anymore. I did code for like three years when I was a teenager and in college. It

just worked. And I'm like, "Oh, come on." Now, that's something I would have paid $20. I was looking for a tool from some crazy Russian. I was like, "If

paid $20. I was looking for a tool from some crazy Russian. I was like, "If there's some crazy Russian out there I can give like a Bitcoin to. Not a whole Bitcoin, but like some Satoshi's too, just to get this piece of software that

I know is like on the margins, like maybe it's against the terms. I don't care. I'll pay $100 a year for it." Couldn't find it. And then cobalt tool

care. I'll pay $100 a year for it." Couldn't find it. And then cobalt tool keeps getting blocked and YouTube download this gets blocked. No, my agent just wrote it for me. I'm done. >> Yeah, I have my version of this which is my with my podcast summarizer. Like no one I feel like there's these Oh, all in

is a great one. I some I like to listen to, but there's some that are just not funny or fun, but you want to know what these smart people talked about.

Podcast summarizer, which just goes in, it'll it'll download the entire YouTube, it'll transcribe it, it'll annotate it, and then it'll just go and tell me like, hey, here's what happened on this 3hour episode with this guy. And I'm like, yeah, I wasn't going to watch that three hours, but I kind of know.

>> That's such a good idea. I'm going to vibe code this uh this weekend. Do you

use Overcast? >> I do.

>> Yeah. So, you know, like if you're a podcast fanatic, I think you can get the OGBC like the uh not like an basically an RSS feed of your RSS's like all put together into one. I could feed my collection of

shows as they download into my agent, have it transcribe it and summarize it and then on an inter make a new interface for me to listen to it. And I

could even make an a bridged version of it. So, give me like a 20-minute version of it. That could be really interesting. >> And yeah, I I do that and then I have

of it. That could be really interesting. >> And yeah, I I do that and then I have like a little Q&A system on top of it. So, I'll do >> Wait, you have this already? You built it?

>> I know. I use it all the time. I have my little thing and I say, "Hey, you vibe."

>> I vibe coded the entire thing. Yeah. It's called It's just a podcast summarizer. And so, for example, Dario comes on Darkh. I'm like, I just want to

summarizer. And so, for example, Dario comes on Darkh. I'm like, I just want to know what he said about infraspend. What is Dario's view on infraspend? Got it.

>> And it will just tell me this is Dario's view on infraspend. And it's really cool way to to be able to have I'm always thinking about like how do you have high bandwidth information flow cuz we're like consuming so much information. It's

really hard to filter. And so this these are the tools that I use to sort of to get around that. >> You should you should it's really cool.

>> I'm gonna I'm gonna vibe code this. All right. Listen, another great episode of Twist is in the can. Dee, thanks for coming and I'll see you when I'm in town for long. >> Thank you for having me. Hi everybody.

for long. >> Thank you for having me. Hi everybody.