Being the Man God Calls You to Be | An Interview with Paul Washer and Joel Beeke

You're to teach with diligence these things to your children. So if I [music] as a dad, and I'm probably going to step on a few toes here, but if I as a dad

get more excited about the score of some ball game, say a Super Bowl ball game, [music] than I do about Jesus Christ in front of my children, what am I conveying to my children? I'm conveying

that Christianity is really not after all. something [music] we go to hear

all. something [music] we go to hear about on Sunday and we hear about Christ maybe a little bit in family worship [music] or some dads our Christians don't even do family worship so in the

home you're then conveying [music] a message Christ is not the center of our lives Christ is not the number one thing that's [music] most important right well Dr. Beaki, welcome to Heart Cry.

Thank you.

And um we're going to be talking about your book that that you've written on um how to lead your your family. [snorts]

And um I know we're being filmed, but I want people to know that um you didn't

ask me to interview you.

I asked to interview you.

I initiated it. Um, every once in a while something comes to my desk that I

read and it's very rare, but it comes to my desk and I read it and I go, "This is

this is what I've needed for so long."

And then I think to myself, I wish I could put this in the hands of every person.

Um, I'm a very busy man. You're a busy man. Um, and and even all all the men

man. Um, and and even all all the men who will listen to this, whether they're working in the ministry or they're architects or engineers or welders,

they're busy. And um if I read a book on

they're busy. And um if I read a book on on being a a good husband, a biblical husband, or I read a book on being a

good father, sometimes the book is so large that there's a wealth of information, but when I get done with it, it does help me. But it's not something that I would put on my

nightstand and read maybe a little bit of it every night for the next few years or read it in its entirety once a month to set me back on course

in this book. The reason why I wanted to interview you is because everything I felt like I needed as a very busy man, as a husband and a father, was found in

this book. And someone asked me,"Well,

this book. And someone asked me,"Well, what would be your recommendation for the book?" And I said, "That a man would

the book?" And I said, "That a man would buy this book, that he would read it, because you can read it in in a few hours, that he would read it every day

for seven days, then he would read it once every month for the rest of his life because it's it's like a a magnet.

All the things in there are the things I want to be as a husband and a father.

That's what I want to be sincerely. But in all the noise and in

sincerely. But in all the noise and in all the business of my life, I can get so distracted.

But it's so precise what you've written there that I can go back and immediately do a course correction and find that I'm I'm I'm being a biblical husband and a

biblical father. And that's why I want

biblical father. And that's why I want to do this interview. Um, the book means a lot to me, a lot. Because it's it's

helping me with with my responsibility toward my wife and my responsibility toward my children. So that I wanted to say that out in the open.

Um, and I want people to know that that doesn't often happen to me, but in this case, it does. As a matter of fact, just as a side note, um a little tongue and

cheek, when they asked me about it, I said, "Okay, but if you're going to publish it, I want you to have it gold gilded and I want it in that leatherly looking binding and everything because

it's like an heirloom that I would literally lay on my nightstand and keep it there like a Spurgeon's morning and evening."

evening." And and I I hope that one day uh they'll listen to me and they'll do that. Okay.

So [laughter] I want to ask you um just from the beginning, how how did this come about

this book?

Well, yeah, Paul, um I'm honored and humbled you you asked me to to come here and thank you for those opening words.

Um and it's great great to just be with you uh again. It's been a little while

uh again. It's been a little while somehow about 20 years ago,

my church folk came to me and said, "For the adult family living class um that you teach every Sunday morning

after church, would you take the issues up of being a father, being a mother, being a husband, being a wife?" And um so I had been

teaching different courses to them just a half an hour at a time every every Sunday morning after church while the other kids are in catechism classes and the adults were with me.

And I had walked through a number of things but they kept saying we want you to give us more practical family

guidance. And so I started that maybe

guidance. And so I started that maybe yeah 15 maybe 20 years ago. But anyway,

I'm gone quite often, so I only do about maybe 15 of these a year. Um, but I've done maybe 250

somewhere around there. And every time I try to move away from the subject, well, that many years later, there's a whole new batch of people and they say, "No, keep going. Keep going." So, I've been

keep going. Keep going." So, I've been doing family material, husband, wife relationships, parents, children

for a long time. And

I I published a book with uh Ligonier called Parenting by God's Promises, how to raise your children in the covenant of grace, which is really the fruit of

about 30 40 of these talks. So, this

book is the fruit of another four or five of these talks, but I I condensed it back down to try to keep it succinct because

yeah, dads are so busy and husbands are so busy. I wanted to just give it to

so busy. I wanted to just give it to them as short and to the point as it says on the cover. Well, one of the things that um I believe in teaching

based on on 2 Timothy 3:16 is that true biblical teaching, it teaches,

it reproves, shows you where you're wrong, but then gives you, it corrects, gives you that course correction, and then through these means it's training you in

righteousness. So, you're looking at the

righteousness. So, you're looking at the truth, you're being um reproved where you're wrong, you're being lovingly corrected, and you keep doing that over

and over. But sometimes in family books,

and over. But sometimes in family books, well, let let's move it outside of the family in in a book on justification that that say it's 500 pages full of

wonderful truth, but then it's difficult when someone finishes reading if you say to them, "Give me the 10 most important statements about justification." it

it's very hard to do that. Um I find the same thing sometimes in family where with this book um what I'm able to do is

okay it's teaching me things. Okay, but

then it's showing me Paul you're wrong here. You're you're just wrong. And then

here. You're you're just wrong. And then

it's like okay this is how we're going to course correct.

But with this book, I can use it not as a one-time read. I can use it to train me in righteousness because I can keep going back to it. Doesn't take very long

to read it. And I can go, okay, yeah, those are the major points.

And yes, in the last month, I've dropped the ball here. I could have given more emphasis here. And then as someone does

emphasis here. And then as someone does that, they're being trained.

And that's what this book does for me.

When I teach someone to shoot a bow, for example, a long bow, I'll go read the book, they'll read the book, then I'll go, "Okay, shoot." And I'll go, "No,

your feet. Change where change the

your feet. Change where change the stance that you have." And then they'll shoot a couple and they'll go, "Change your stance again. Change your change your arm angle."

And that's what this does.

It's teaching you, but then it doesn't leave you. If you keep going back to it,

leave you. If you keep going back to it, it goes, "Okay, now remember what we said this month. you dropped that. So,

let's go back to it.

That's why I love this book.

Well, that's that's a very kind thought and I I So, yeah. So,

So, yeah. So, I think what happened to me also as a husband and father is because like you're talking about the

busy life and it's so easy to take the closest people to you for granted, right?

And you're ministering to other people all the time.

But what I found in my own life personally and that's what I tried to build off of that is to live intentionally

in as a husband and as a father intentionally under this concept of I want to be the kind of husband to my wife that Christ is to the church.

Ephesians 5. So everything I say, do, and even think, I want to be a faithful husband to my wife. And I also want, despite all my shortcomings, and I've

got my shortcomings for sure, I want to be a faithful dad to my kids and to my grandkids. And

so I need to live intentionally. I need

to have a a framework, a paradigm of how I am to do these things. And what dawned on me after a while by reading Ephesians 5 through 64 where it talks about children not being provoked to wrath by

their dad is that the paradigm really in the scriptures of living as a Christian is

to live out of Christ as a prophet, priest, king. So the hyberg catechism is

priest, king. So the hyberg catechism is a beautiful example. Yeah,

it's talking about Jesus as as as the Lord, as the Jesus, as the Christ, going through the names of Christ used in the Apostles Creed. And then all of a

Apostles Creed. And then all of a sudden, when it talks about Christ as prophet, priest, and King, it interrupts this flow of talking about his names and it says, "But why are you called a

Christian?" Question 32. And the answer

Christian?" Question 32. And the answer is, "Well, because I'm a partaker of Jesus Christ by faith." And so therefore, and then it gives this long list of things, but basically it's

saying therefore I'm to be a prophet.

I'm to be a priest. I'm to be a king.

I'm to be like him. And that's true of the Christian life as a whole. I'm to be a prophet in society. I'm to evangelize other people, talk to them about the Lord, teach them. I'm to be a priest

praying for them. I'm to be a king um reigning putting down sin and and guiding people and and ruling over them.

And then it dawned on me, but if that's true of me as a Christian in general, it's also true of me as a as a as a husband, as a father. And so I I

gradually began to see that um if I can live intentionally as a prophet, priest, king, husband and as a prophet, priest, king father out of the prophetical,

priestly, kingly office of Christ and constantly think intentionally in my mind, how would Jesus handle this situation as a prophet? What would he

say to my wife in this teaching situation where I'm leading family worship and I'm trying to wash my wa wife by the water of the word there?

That's what I must say. So it's it's it's a christocentric center and from there I want to be a prophet to my wife and to my children, a priest to

my wife and my children and a king to my wife and children. So those are the six main thoughts of the book and I tried to look at each one of them how how to do that.

What I would like for you to explain um when we look at priest we cannot deny the culture that we live in and there are certain words that

cause people to almost react or get afraid. So when we talk about priest and

afraid. So when we talk about priest and an intercessor and things like that, it's not quite as troubling for for some people. When we talk about I'm going to

people. When we talk about I'm going to be a prophet to my family, they're like, "So you're going to what? Just you

preach your will. You preach you just you're just telling your family what to do." And then when we get over here,

do." And then when we get over here, prophet, priest, and king. What? So

you're the king, huh? and not redefining those terms in the context of what we know the kingdom of Christ to be. That,

you know, when Jesus tells his disciples, you know, when when we're talking about being a leader, it's completely the opposite of what the world thinks. The leader in

Christianity is basically the one who gives the most and goes to bed the most tired and he's doing it for everyone else. So,

if you could just talk about what you mean by prophet, priest, and king in your family and and how it's directed toward serving them and not yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, as prophet, a prophet not only teaches, but he also admonishes when things are going wrong.

And so, it's true of all three offices that I've got to do, first of all, all of this in love. Love your wife as Christ loves the

love. Love your wife as Christ loves the church. So, we're not talking about

church. So, we're not talking about authoritarianism or kind of a lordship from the top down that that is harsh or family worship that

children tremble at and don't like.

We're talking about being a loving husband, a loving father in all three of these offices. So as prophet when I

these offices. So as prophet when I teach them in family worship and then try to buttress that um in in just the ordinary events of daily life especially

around the supper table my wife would always uh give me a little a little kick under the table during supper if I if my mind was wandering away because she'd

say to me she'd say to me remember supper time is a time to talk about meaningful things not just you know I mean you got to just have fun and talk about things sometimes that

don't have a whole lot of weight and value. But you got to take opportunities

value. But you got to take opportunities that come your way to lovingly talk to your children about real things about things in the Bible. And I don't want my children just to say because well every

day dad talks to me about family worship about that particular chapter.

Therefore we don't have to talk about the Lord and other things. No, I don't want to bifurcate that. I want, if I really love the souls of my children, I want to season, I want to marinate, I

want to salt everything in life with the word of God. And so, I'm going to lovingly teach them. And this isn't an artificial teaching. It's an

artificial teaching. It's an intentional, disciplined way of thinking about what can I say to my children today around this supper table by asking them

questions, by talking about their day maybe that's meaningful and promotes these biblical principles of me teaching them and loving them in that teaching.

One of the things in that area, um, it's the book's flavored with it. It's just

that I know you more than what's in the book. and I over the years read things

book. and I over the years read things that you've done, listened to you preach, uh you've been a friend and a and a mentor in many ways. Um that when

you I like to say this some when I'm talking to a congregation or I'm talking to my family, sometimes I I preach sideways and they go, "What do you

mean?" It's not me looking at my family

mean?" It's not me looking at my family going, "This is what you have to do.

This is what you have to do. This is

what you have to do." It's kind of like me going, "Did you hear what he said to all of us here?" And then, and then also the idea, and we've talked about this

before, um the king in Israel, I mean, he had the power of life and death. Um

yet he was subject to the law. He had no authority apart from correctly expounding and living that law.

And then we talk about teaching the Bible. It's not you imposing your will

Bible. It's not you imposing your will upon anyone. It's just correctly

upon anyone. It's just correctly expounding what God said in the word. A

prophet has to be faithful to represent God and not use the words for himself.

That's right. That's right. And you've

got to do that all affectionately and lovingly. So just picture a dad with one

lovingly. So just picture a dad with one child on one knee, four-year-old and a two-year-old or three-year-old, you know, embracing them both. And then

picture the wise man, the father in the in Proverbs saying, "Come near to me, my son. I will give you understanding. I

son. I will give you understanding. I

will teach you wisdom." And that kind of picture, I like to picture the wise man giving advice in all kinds of areas of life in in the book of Proverbs, but

he's doing it all lovingly. And so you want to give this impression to your children.

Though my dad has flaws and faults, I know he loves the Lord and I know he cares about my soul and he wants me to love the Lord as well. And one thing

about my dad, I cannot deny, he loves the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart.

And he won't rest until I do, too.

That's the goal. You want them to have that impression. And my dad was very

that impression. And my dad was very good at that. You know, I I often say to people, I don't know if he could care less about my physical needs. I mean, my mother took care of that. So, that was a

good balance. Did my dad never asked me

good balance. Did my dad never asked me questions. That was a mistake, but he

questions. That was a mistake, but he never asked me questions about how my day was or stuff. But boy, did he love my soul, you know? He was always talking to me about how God leads his people.

And oh, I just felt his love for my soul that and all five of us children felt that. And we we were

all saved as we grew up um in truth.

But a good part of it was the prayers of my mother and and the teaching the the prophetical teaching of my dad. My dad

would often teach us with tears and just he'd be so full of the love of Christ, so full of the value of our souls. So

this is what Deuteronomy 6 says. In

fact, that's one of the first points I make about prophetical office. You're to

teach with diligence these things to your children. So if I as a dad, and I'm

your children. So if I as a dad, and I'm probably going to step on a few toes here, but if I as a dad get more excited about the score of some ball game, say a Super Bowl ball game, than I do about

Jesus Christ in front of my children, yeah, what am I conveying to my children?

I'm conveying that Christianity is really not after all. something we go to hear about on Sunday and we hear about Christ maybe a little bit in family worship or some dads our Christians

don't even do family worship so in the home you're then conveying a message Christ is not the center of our lives Christ is not the number one thing that's most important right that that's that's negative

teaching I I find that in and with my children it was like we're out in the woods let's say and we're we're walking around doing things

and having a great day and I go, "Did you have a great day?" And and we're not in church. We're in the woods.

in church. We're in the woods.

Yeah.

And yes. Who gave it to you?

Who gave you that day?

Another thing about teaching that I found out was the biggest impact with my children was and my my daughter uh Rowan, who's now 18, but she was about

eight. And she came to me and I was

eight. And she came to me and I was really struggling with some stuff that was going on in the ministry. And I I she kept coming back and and I got impatient with her

and I taught on patience. I got

impatience with her. And so she walked away and about a minute later it was very clear the Holy Spirit that that I had sinned.

And so I went to her and I said, "Rowan," I said, "Forgive me. I was impatient with you." M.

with you." M.

And she looked at me and she said, "That's okay, Dad." And I said, "No, remember

okay, Dad." And I said, "No, remember remember my instruction what you have to do. You have to release me." And she's a

do. You have to release me." And she's a little girl, just skinny as she could be, looked at me with her big eyes and she she put her hand on my shoulder and

she goes, "Yes, Dad. You sinned against me. You were impatient,

me. You were impatient, but I forgive you."

Wow. And my point is is that if I didn't have confession to my children about sin,

I don't think I think every time I taught them, they would just be bitter because they would go, "What a hypocrite."

hypocrite." Yeah.

Because I I'm not perfect. I want to be perfect as my heavenly father is, but I'm not. Far from it. I went into just

I'm not. Far from it. I went into just wandered into a church here in Ron Oak a few years ago and I don't even know the minister's name, but he gave an example.

I thought it was one of the most beautiful things I'd ever heard. And he

said this. He said, "So, let's say that my I catch my daughter in a lie."

And I go, "What am I going to do? Am I

going to go, you know, you've lied.

You're a liar. I'm really ashamed of you. and you've disobeyed. And he goes,

you. and you've disobeyed. And he goes, "What hypocrisy." And he said, "I sat

"What hypocrisy." And he said, "I sat there and I thought, what do I do?" And

he said, "I went to my daughter and I said honey you've lied and that's wrong.

I have lied at times and it was wrong."

Do you see how much I need Jesus? Do you

see how much you need Jesus? Do you see how much both of us need Jesus? And I I walked out of there going, "That's one of the greatest truths I ever heard."

Instead of like, "How could you do this?"

this?" Yeah.

Now, it needs to be dealt with.

Yeah.

But it's not how could you do I know how you could do this because I've done the same thing. And we need Jesus

same thing. And we need Jesus desperately. Yeah. That that's where the

desperately. Yeah. That that's where the the Puritans are so good because he said also when you discipline your children

as as a king you need to remember to prevent an over harshness you need to remember your own heart and your own weaknesses and all the sins that are in

your child's heart are in your heart. In

fact through giving birth to this child into the world you are passing on your own pollution your own corruption to them. So you never stand higher than

them. So you never stand higher than your child in terms of your own self-estimation because the seed of every sin is in our hearts even if we don't engage in it.

And then then you discipline with compassion. They feel the compassion.

compassion. They feel the compassion.

They feel the love. And when children feel the compassion love, they're much more susceptible to receiving the discipline.

Now let let me ask you a question that may be really practical. um

when you're teaching children, your children when they especially when they were younger, um I had a friend of mine say he came to me and he said he was real discouraged because his children

didn't like um their their devotional times. And I said, "Well, explain it to

times. And I said, "Well, explain it to me." And when he got finished, I said,

me." And when he got finished, I said, "Be honest with you, I wouldn't like your devotional time either." I said, "Devotional time is not a church service. It doesn't last for an hour,

service. It doesn't last for an hour, right? Um you you have to also look at

right? Um you you have to also look at have you got the children's interest. So

how long do you when you think about having um daily devotionals or whatever family devotionals with your children?

Okay. So as a as a prophet teaching in teaching family worship um there's really four things four things we have to do according to the Bible. Number one

is we have to read the word of God with them. Obviously that's the foundation

them. Obviously that's the foundation and that's obvious. Second Timothy 3, even when the father wasn't there, Paul said to Timothy, "Your mother and your grandmother taught you daily and the

word of God raised you up, you got to instruct your children from that chapter, however short or long it may be, you have to instruct them. You have

to ask yourself, what are the what are the one or two or maybe even three major takeaways from this chapter that I need to teach my my children?" That's the

most challenging part. And that's where we've had a group of men who work together on a project for five years to produce Family Worship Bible Guide to do

exactly that to have little paragraphs um of two or three points after each chapter ending in a question each one of the question so that you as a dad just

read that for 30 seconds ask the question and you have a couple minutes discussion maybe only one minute maybe two. Um, so you've got

two. Um, so you've got two minutes maybe of reading 10 verses.

You've got three, four minutes, five minutes average discussing. Maybe one day it

average discussing. Maybe one day it will go seven minutes. You know, you can't predict that. And then you've got

the uh the prayer time and two, three, four minutes.

Remember your children's needs. Um we we always taught them the axe formula.

Adoration, you start out with telling God how wonderful he is, how great he is, glorious attributes. Then

confession, you confess sins, personal sins, family sins, and then thanksgivings. So many things to thank

thanksgivings. So many things to thank God for in every family. Count your

blessings, name them one by one. And

then and then your supplications.

Um Calvin has a big test tomorrow.

Esther is coming down with a cold and a sick. small things but also big things

sick. small things but also big things their soul and things like that and their need to grow in grace if they are

saved. So 3 4 minutes and you try to

saved. So 3 4 minutes and you try to weave into that a little bit of what you just talked to them about. So there's a

little variety in the prayer each day.

And then you sing um Psalm 118:15, the Israelites sang in the tents of the righteous.

um Matthew Henry or Philip Henry, Matthew Henry's father actually said this is an obvious reference to daily singing in the hall. And so the Puritans said you've got to sing at the end.

That's what they recommended, the end of family worship because singing the memory of the words will go with you further throughout the day and um it

tends to embed itself longer. So when

you start out family worship, I would say start very small. do it in five six minutes like one minute each um and then just build gradually and it's

not a it's not a matter of the time per se definitely don't go an hour but I found a sweet spot when our kids were

very young very young 10 minutes was was really sufficient for family worship as they got older they wanted to talk about more things right

so then it was 15 sometimes it was me.

Um, rarely did it go more than 20 minutes. But [snorts] I get this

minutes. But [snorts] I get this question a lot about timing. We've got

kids that are 2, three, four, and then we've got kids that are 12, 15.

How do we do that? Because the two, three, four year olds, you know, we can barely constrain them for three minutes, right? So then I I say this um and God

right? So then I I say this um and God is practical this way too, isn't he? Um,

this is not a legalistic servitude in family worship. this is what's best for

family worship. this is what's best for my family to get across what I'm trying to get across as a as a prophet. So I

would move very quickly then in less than five minutes through all of these things and then let the really young children go play and then say to the older ones, let's stay and talk a little

bit more about a couple of these points.

Let me ask you, uh, all right, we've talked about children, um, but speaking the word of God into the life of your wife.

Yes.

And vice versa, because the wife speaks the word of God to us.

Yeah.

So, yeah, two or three things here. First of all, what many men are not doing today, which

I think is a tragedy, and um you've got to do this on the day of judgment.

I want, and I'm sure you're the same, Paul, you want your wife to be able to say, "Lord Jesus, because of this man standing here, I was made more holy. I was, he washed

me by the water of the word. This is my calling." Ephesians 5, he loved his

calling." Ephesians 5, he loved his church and gave himself for and husbands so love your wives that they may be washed by the water of the word and

presented as chase virgins to Christ. I

want my wife to be able to say to the Lord from the day of judgment, my husband wasn't perfect by any means, but he did wash me daily with the water of

the word. And he by the grace of God, I

the word. And he by the grace of God, I was made more godly in in in this life through the influence of my husband. I

thank God for a godly husband. That

that means everything.

But what happens today is the men who are doing family worship well and good, wonderful, but they don't most of the time have any time alone with their wife

to speak about godly things and to pray together. And if you said to me, "What is the sweetest moment of

everyday life for me?"

It's it's it's when my wife and I are going to bed at night and we get down on our knees beside the bed and we're touching like like right up against each

other. She prays one night, I pray the

other. She prays one night, I pray the next night. She always prays on Sunday

next night. She always prays on Sunday night because I'm exhausted.

And so I'm praying four nights a week.

She's praying three nights a week. We

got it organized. And

that is the sweetest time because we men need to hear the feminine side of prayer. And our wives need to hear us

prayer. And our wives need to hear us praying lovingly for them. And many

times in that prayer, I'm just saying, "Oh Lord," and sometimes with tears, I'm just so grateful for the godly wife you've given me, Lord. Thank you so much.

And you know, it's not just I'm I'm teaching her in prayer. I'm praying with her.

We're coming to the throne of grace together, but I'm full of gratitude for her, and she needs to hear that in prayer. And I owe it to God because I do

prayer. And I owe it to God because I do have a special wife, and I'm very grateful for her. So, that's part of my thanksgiving. But I also cry out to God

thanksgiving. But I also cry out to God for her needs in in in supplications. if

she's struggling with writing a a speech for the next conference that she's going to give to women, I'm going to pray for her that God would really help her in that. And when you pray

that. And when you pray Acts formula, just as husband and wife together, I mean, it's not just a family that prays together that will stay together.

It's the married couple that prays together that will stay together.

Okay, let me ask you a question.

You know, I've I've been up there Grand Rapids. I've I've been with you and

Rapids. I've I've been with you and Sunday meal and watched your family and generations of Beakysis.

One time I was at your house, I I just marveled.

Um, what about the man who says, "I'm so aranged. You know, my wife and I

are having so many problems. if I would almost be embarrassed to pray to ask her to pray with me beside the bed or she

would almost roll her eyes and be embitter because you come from such a legacy of family um and and I've seen it and and people

in your church many of them too of that that marvelous reformed tradition um how can a man who says

a bit at least a bit estranged and I haven't led spiritually. There's

actually maybe even bitterness in my wife's heart because of me. Where would

you tell him to begin?

I would tell him to begin this way. I

would go to my wife with genuine tears in my eyes. I would

say "Sweetheart I have failed you in many ways." And I didn't even realize how much I failed you until I I read this book on family

worship or this this or that item. And I

realized I haven't been doing this with you and I haven't been doing it with the children. And I want to just begin with

children. And I want to just begin with you first. And would you please please

you first. And would you please please please forgive me and help me and let me start over and let let me confess my sin

right now in front of you in prayer. and

you bow your head and you just pour out your heart and just say, "I'm so sorry, Lord. I've been a good leader to my

Lord. I've been a good leader to my wife." And and and

wife." And and and I think you need to stop looking in in your bitterness with your wife. You need

to stop looking at how she treats you.

This is what William G, the Puritan, said. It's the main takeaway I got from

said. It's the main takeaway I got from his 800page book that I read, unfinly, how to raise a family. The number one

takeaway is he said, "I've never had to counsel any couple about serious problems in their marriage where both people were minding their own business where the man was doing what he had to

do and not focus on how his wife was treating him and vice versa with the woman. And so

woman. And so you focus as a husband what you're called to do." And and no one has ever treated you husband. No

one has ever treated you as badly as you've treated Christ.

And that's what I try to remember when people I think criticize me unfairly. I

try to remember no matter how mean they are to me, um they've never treated me as badly as I've treated Christ. And then that makes

it far easier to lose that bitterness because Christ is still merciful to me.

Why shouldn't I be merciful to my wife and lose my bitterness? And um as you do that, as you really come clean, as you really repent in front of your wife, you

might be surprised. May take a while, but be consistent. Don't fall back into self-justification.

They may take a while, but your wife your wife will respond to love in in most cases over a period of time.

And as you bow your knees and just cry out to God for her, it won't take long before you can say to her, "I would love to hear you pray as

well. Would you would you just pray with

well. Would you would you just pray with me?" I mean, don't confront her with

me?" I mean, don't confront her with that right away. First, you come low and say, "We need to we need to I need to change some things, some big things

here in the marriage, and I'm determined to do it with the help of God." you

know, Bey, Dr. BKF um I know something of of of your tradition um the circle of

churches and um sometimes I've listened to you and I've watched you and I and and other men that work with you and

I'll go I'm not sure they realize how different it is sometimes out in other places and and

what a beauty and a joy and a tradition that you have within your own context.

And um if if someone went to your church, it would be brought up like men would

hear about their deep profound responsibility to their families. They

would hear that. You know, when when people hear you use langu people in in general evangelicalism hear you use language like, "Well, our children are over here being catechized. Our parents

are being taught." They're going, "I I've I've been in church 25 years. I've

never even heard of anything like that."

And if you could just talk for a moment about, you know, just like with within the community, we need each other in

order to be conformed to the image of Christ. We need to to stimulate Hebrews

Christ. We need to to stimulate Hebrews incite uh others uh each other mutually and all these things. Um,

but with regard to the family, in so many uh I guess circles of evangelicalism, someone could go to church for 10 years and not hear a sermon on the family or

have anyone hold them accountable. For

example, I could see a man who who listens to what you just said and he's never even been in that world.

He sees he's broken. He goes, "I need to do this." But I'm sitting there

do this." But I'm sitting there thinking, but he's not going to make it in a lone wolf Christianity. He's not

going to be able to make the progress he needs to make apart from some extraordinary providence of God. He

needs other brothers to go, "Okay, I've heard, you know, you're you're working on this. You've realized that you were wrong."

And they're holding him accountable.

How important is that?

Yeah. Accountability is is is very important. very very important and

important. very very important and accountability also begins in in the church. And so in our tradition,

the ruling elders, it can be a minister and and a ruling elder, um go to each family once a year for

what we call family visitation. It's

probably more accurately called soul visitation. But this is one of the

visitation. But this is one of the questions we ask the father. How is

family worship going? And [snorts]

um are your children prospering under it?

How how are you receiving the sermons?

It's so there's an accountability there.

But for fathers who are really struggling with doing family worship, um we also offer to come to their homes and model it for them. So I would actually

go to a home and open the Bible with a family and and walk them through family worship and teach the dad firsthand. Um

but so there there's two things I want to say here. One is

say here. One is when people get the Family Worship Bible Guide, that is

a gift of God honestly for for thousand tens of thousands of men. It's by far our bestselling book. Um, and

boy, I can honestly say this that I've had more men come up to me than and talk about that than any other all the books combined I've written my entire life. uh

come up to me and just say that book changed my life my family life.

Okay. So expl I don't want just in passing on that but tell me about that book. What's the title of it? What is

book. What's the title of it? What is

the Yeah, it's family worship Bible guide.

In the front there's six pages on exactly how to do family worship, how to do each part of these four parts. Um but

then I have also written a little book 75 pages you can read in an hour and a half.

that details in more detail exactly how to do family worship according to what I think the Bible's saying and my own practical advice. And usually people buy

practical advice. And usually people buy these two books together. But the family worship Bible guide itself is about 800

pages and it looks at every chapter, all 1,169 chapters in the Bible. It just

gives you two or three paragraphs giving you the main takeaways of that chapter and you just read them to your family.

and they end in a question and then your wife jumps in and begins to answer. Or

you might say, "Johnny, what do you think of that question?" uh to the 14-year-old. Or if you think the

14-year-old. Or if you think the question is at maybe an 8-year-old level, you might ask it to the 8-year-old and [clears throat] they just start to discuss it together. And then

you can sense, you give a little guidance, but you can sense maybe there's no more thoughts and you move on to the next one. Or maybe

you think of something wise to say to your children and and you you speak out or you ask another question. The idea of family worship is Q&A. You ask questions of your children, they respond and then

you ask another question, but also you you add something to it and be very natural. And it's like swimming.

natural. And it's like swimming.

You don't learn to swim by staying out of the water saying I can't swim.

You get in the water. And so you start out very short, very small. And as

Matthew Henry said, it doesn't take any it doesn't take any uncommon ability to hold an edifying family worship. Your

heart needs to be in it. You need to be sincere.

And but the family worship Bible guide really helps men because a lot of men say when they first start out, I just don't know what to say and I'm stymied.

So I tend to say nothing. I just read the Bible and close it. Uh, but this this will this is a godsend for men. I

really believe that and I've heard it thousands of times.

Yes. So, I want to go on to the the idea of as an as a priest, as an intercessor.

And when I when I first read that in the book, I I thought of Job. Remember, he

would intercede uh for his family. Uh

think of course of Christ. Um but talk about that aspect.

Yeah. So yeah, um I think this is a very very very important part of fatherhood that's being neglected on all sides.

So you can grow up in a Christian home today and never hear your dad pleading

for the salvation of your soul in family worship or in personal life.

And if if you've grown up with a dad who did do that, you realize, oh man, to think about my dad never praying for

me.

I mean, never he not that he did pray for me, but never hearing him pray for me is just an overwhelmingly sad thought to

me. But a lot of young people grew up

me. But a lot of young people grew up with that. So

with that. So what you need to say is with Job, you mentioned Job, Job 1 vers5, thus did Job continually, every day, every morning,

he took he took a bullock or so and he he sacrificed it and offered it to the Lord and came through blood to the Lord for his children because it said didn't say they were big sinners. It just said

it may be that they've sinned in their heart before the Lord.

So we need to do that privately. But of

course, we don't need bullocks because we go straight to the blood of Christ.

But we need to do that privately. It's

my responsibility as a father and my wife as a mother too, to be praying for each one of our children and our grandchildren now every day. And if that

takes 10 minutes, so be it. But we need to be on our knees praying for each one.

And Job did this early in the morning. I

love what Spurgeon says. He hurried to the cross with all of his children first thing in the morning because he wanted them to get a speedy reception of grace throughout the day.

Wow.

And and and and think about it this way.

If I die tomorrow, all my poor prayers, I wish I prayed a lot more for them. All my poor prayers, my wife's poor prayers, they're still

laying at the throne of grace. And like

Hezekiah prayed for Manessa, no doubt a lot when he was such an ungodly boy. And

then he became king.

He was a disaster. Filled the streets of Jerusalem with blood of the saints from one end to the other. But 15 years after Hezekiah died, God finally answers his

prayers. So it's like my dad said to me

prayers. So it's like my dad said to me when I was 14 years old, [snorts] It was a beautiful moment actually.

He took out his wallet one day and he sat me down on the bed and he said to me, he took out some money and laid on the bed.

He said, "You see all this money?"

Yes Dad.

He always taught me by questions. He

said, "Do you know what's more valuable than all the money in the world?

And I always said no because I always got the wrong answer.

He's always had something deeper, something more spiritual in mind.

He said an open throne of grace is more important than all the money in the world.

Amazing thing. He said to me that you can go to the God of the universe every day and pour out your soul to him.

value prayer, value that open throne of grace more than anything in in in in the world.

And and my dad just modeled that for me, you know, when he prayed when he prayed as a priest in our family.

I mean, he just prayed like this.

Oh Lord, we can't miss any of our children on the right side of Christ on the judgment day. Save them all, Lord.

Save all of them. Each of them. Don't

let them rest short of Jesus Christ.

Then when we all were saved, my sister was the last to be saved when she was about 1920.

My oldest brother and oldest sister had had children already.

And he'd say, "But now, Lord, save all the grandchildren. We need them all."

the grandchildren. We need them all."

And then he would say, "Oh," and the tears are streamed down his face, let us be an undivided family reserved for the heavenly mansions above. Let our lives be nothing but a preparation to meet

thee in the righteousness of Christ alone. You know, these things are

alone. You know, these things are embedded in our souls, all five of us, because my

dad was so earnest about it and and my brother said at their 50th anniversary when we all think my dad for one thing

and all five of us said family worship.

And then my brother said, "Dad, [snorts] my oldest memory in life is when I was three years old and I was sitting on your lap in family worship.

I can't remember what you said, but I know you were crying. I saw the tears stream down your face."

And all I remember thinking is, "God is real.

God is real." So, Dad, I want to thank you. I never had to doubt the existence

you. I never had to doubt the existence of God my whole life. See,

so when you're doing family worship and you're talking to the 15year-old, you think the four-year-old isn't propheting, but the four-year-old is getting impressions as he sits on your

lap, as he sees the reverence with which you're speaking, hears his older brother respond.

And as you talk to the four-year-old, the 15year-old is listening and he's saying or you're telling him also, "You better listen, son, because the way I'm

talking to your four-year-old brother, before you know it, you blink a few times, you'll be married. You'll have

kids and you'll need to do this. So, you

listen. You see, it's not like, oh, well, this is just for one person." The

whole family is giving impressions, right? as you pray

right? as you pray earnestly for your family, the whole family is being blessed.

And as as as um William Grenell said, no, I'm sorry. William Bates said, it's a wonderful thing to pray even though I don't receive the mercy prayed

for. Just the act of praying and having

for. Just the act of praying and having a relationship with God is valuable all by itself.

But good prayers never come weeping back for God either answers what I asked for or what I should have been asking for in the first place. Yeah.

You know what what what prayer is my dad was right. Prayer is the most valuable

was right. Prayer is the most valuable thing we can do. God comes to us through his word. Another thing my dad would

his word. Another thing my dad would always say.

Our relationship with God is a two-way communication. Two-way street. He comes

communication. Two-way street. He comes

down to us through his word. We go back to him through prayer. And we need both.

We got to be in his word every day. Go

back in prayer every day. have a real relationship with God. I

I think you know everyone who does family devotions has thought this at one time or another. I've thought, are my children getting anything?

And I want to especially say that to young fathers um with young children because there were times when I thought that are they getting anything? And I'll

never forget one day my son, he's talking um through the computer with a group of other young boys his age and uh

I walk by and I hear him go, "You're just not getting it." And I thought, "Oh, okay. What are what's going?" So I

"Oh, okay. What are what's going?" So I kind of He goes, "You've got to understand in God all his attri He's not like us. All his attributes

like us. All his attributes function in perfect harmony. So what

you've got to understand is he cannot declare you righteous.

He cannot unless his righteous. And he

starts going on and I was going well even some of the things he was saying I go I think I could use that in a sermon.

And and I want dads to know that I walked away shaking my head. Not in a million years did I think that my son would be able to do that.

Yeah.

Another thing I'd like you to just maybe give some counsel on. So there's a guy that listens to this and he goes, "Man,

the world Beak grew up in, I don't even know. I mean, my dad, [clears throat]

know. I mean, my dad, [clears throat] he never prayed. He never went to church. Uh didn't respect my mom.

church. Uh didn't respect my mom.

[snorts] What am I to do? And just how if he's in Christ, he can overcome. And it can all begin with him.

The years the locusts have eaten can be restored.

God can come back to you. And what a privilege it would be for you to set a first generation example. Amen. of a

godly life as a father that would last from generation to generation until the Lord returns.

Amen.

God can help you. Go to your pastor, ask for help. Go to doesn't have to be a

for help. Go to doesn't have to be a pastor. You can go to wise old godly

pastor. You can go to wise old godly men. I like to say this to my people,

men. I like to say this to my people, even in in our church, I say this often.

Pick out someone from the congregation that you are impressed with their walk of life that seem to be more godly than you and go visit them and ask them questions like right how did you struggle with sin? How how did you lead

family worship when you were young? How

did how what lessons did you learn from parenting pro and con? And you'd be amazed what you can learn from godly older people who've traverse the way

before you.

I I told someone when I uh started years ago making who makes a long bow, you know, and uh they said, "How did you learn?" Well, I looked up an expert. I

learn?" Well, I looked up an expert. I

found his number, right?

And he was more than happy, right? To you know, so I'm not going to

right? To you know, so I'm not going to go to someone who's struggling as much as I am. I'm going to go to someone who I actually see bearing fruit. Yeah.

And I'm going to go, can you help me?

And within Christianity, I don't think I've ever gone to someone and said, you know, I noticed this special grace on you. Could you help me? That they said

you. Could you help me? That they said no.

Right? You know, and and and even if they like my dad used to say, even when you dialogue when in the communion of saints, if there's one sentence that

person says that you can take with you and meditate on, uh it's profitable for your soul. You you you grow bit by bit.

your soul. You you you grow bit by bit.

And so as a father too, you got to remember that you cash the bread, the gospel bread on the water and and and you might not find it till many days.

The example you just gave of your son all of a sudden sounding very mature when you know I had this thing with my daughter. I just want to say this

daughter. I just want to say this because it was overwhelming experience in my life. I had a really hard time at one point in my ministry and my wife and I made a vow to each other that we would

not expose the troubles we were going through uh in the church at that time 30 some years ago to our children. We didn't

want our ch our we couldn't put that weight on our children's shoulders and we don't want them to grow up thinking negatively of the church or anything

like that. So,

like that. So, but one night I was really down and my daughter, my oldest daughter, said to me, "Dad, something's wrong with

you. You're not yourself." And I said,

you. You're not yourself." And I said, "No, I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. Dad,

can you tell me what's wrong?" And I went so far as to say, "Well, there just a few things going on right now in the church that are discouraging me a little

bit."

bit." And she started balling and she walked out of the room and went upstairs. I go,

"Oh, no. I I did what I said I was wasn't going to do, you know." And

the next morning I got up and u came down down the steps went into the kitchen and there were

seven 8 and 1 half by 11 sheets of paper the door overhang. They were taped onto

that all the way down to the floor and every piece of paper had one text on it.

And I started reading the texts and suddenly it dawned on me.

I I've always made a habit like my dad did in family worship. I always made a habit of if the Lord used something in my life when we came across it in the Bible reading, I would share the story

of what happened.

My daughter remembered seven of those experiences and pasted those seven texts from family worship that she heard me

tell stories about the floor to the ceiling. And when I read them, the bondage was just removed

because they were all promises of God.

And my daughter ministered to me in that way as a fruit of me ministering to her what I experienced. But what I took away from it was just what you took away from

your son. Wow. I'm blown away that she

your son. Wow. I'm blown away that she remembered all those texts. So she is really taking all these things in. You

know, she could recite seven texts that I been special to me. Phenomenal. So in

family worship, you may think your kids aren't taking all that much in, but they are. We we had a we had a niece who's uh

are. We we had a we had a niece who's uh she's now turning 50 and she was converted wonderfully when she was about

29 30 I guess but she um she had lived a wild life just tragic life abandoned everything that she grew up with with

godly parents and oh such a heartache to my sister and her husband.

But you know when she was saved dramatically suddenly she wanted to see me and she came to me and she said everything my dad my mom ever said to me

in family worship everything the church said to me I thought I forgot it all. I thought it was all wrong. But when God came back it

all came back to me. And she could speak about theology like like she'd been in church all her life. It came back to her. one of my dear dear friends, grew

her. one of my dear dear friends, grew up in a very conservative evangelical Lutheran church

and went through all the catechizing, went through everything. And uh he told me, I'll never forget it. He said,

"Paul, I went off to college. I wasn't a Christian. Didn't care."

Christian. Didn't care."

He goes, "The moment I was converted, every bit of that catechite, all of it came to the front."

And it's like I already had a seminary education. I remembered everything. My

education. I remembered everything. My

father, the church, everything they had taught me. And I I knew it. Everything

taught me. And I I knew it. Everything

from Trinity to everything just flooded back and fell into place.

Yeah. This is this is why Luther said it's an exaggerated statement but he said give me a child until he's seven and I'll give him to Rome for the rest of his life but they won't be able to

change him because you mold you mold a child actually very young far more than you think.

And another example I I use with young people a lot. I say

fill your mind with good things when you're young because what you fill your mind with is what you're going to remember for the rest of your life. And

I tell them, example, my mother who got dementia at at 90 and died at 92. And I

say, you know, she forgot everything.

She forgot my name. She forgot what I did for work. She she's just I couldn't remember. You put a picture of my dad in

remember. You put a picture of my dad in front of her, married to him for 52 years. And she'd say, who is that?

years. And she'd say, who is that?

You say, "Mother, that's that's dad.

Do you remember him?" Nope.

But you sit her down and say, "Mother, will you sing Psalter 140 with me?" God be merciful to me. On thy grace

me?" God be merciful to me. On thy grace I rest, my plea plenty. And she would even sing it a note ahead of us a little bit. And she'd be looking up at us. And

bit. And she'd be looking up at us. And

we get all done singing it, all four stanzas. She knew every word because it

stanzas. She knew every word because it even when she had dementia, she could remember when she was 11, 12, that age.

And I' I've seen other people like that as well. And then when get all done

as well. And then when get all done singing it, I'd have my arm around her on the couch and she'd she'd look up at me. She was down to 95 pounds. She was

me. She was down to 95 pounds. She was

very frail little little woman. She look

at me. She'd say, "Well, I guess I haven't forgotten everything. Have I?"

[laughter] And break our hearts, you know. But it

was sweet because you fill your mind, young people, with with junk music that'll come back to you all your life.

You fill your mind with songs and hymns and truth of God and it'll come back to you. Uh but that's what you want. But

you. Uh but that's what you want. But

you want to live it out now for your whole life and and and you want to you want to serve the Lord your whole life fully your whole life like Caleb.

Talk to us about your mother's prayers.

Yeah. So, my mother didn't didn't uh didn't have the freedom to talk to us about spiritual things the way my father did, but she was on her her knees.

You mean freedom? You mean gifts? The

gift.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, she would read a lot of books to us. Spiritual books. But

especially on Sunday afternoon. Every

Sunday afternoon, she'd read to us for 45 minutes to an hour. But, and when my dad wasn't around, she would pray like every noon she'd pray with us. and her

prayers were sweet and simple, not as profound as my dad's, but she was she was she was always on always on her knees. And uh two things about my

mother's prayers is that she'd pray in one corner of the living room every morning. And I don't know if she ever

morning. And I don't know if she ever realized it, but we'd walk past the uh uh the living room to get to the kitchen. And it was after after we were

kitchen. And it was after after we were all married that I said to my brothers one time, "Did you tiptoe past the living room too like I did?" Like real quietly, "Do you want to disturb your

mother?" Goes, "Yeah, we did that, too."

mother?" Goes, "Yeah, we did that, too."

You just felt the sacredness because we could see through the light and my mother on her knees and and she she'd be praying there a half an hour or so, then come out and say good morning and and we knew we knew she was praying for each

one of us. So, that's one thing. The

other thing that impressed us all that we talked about later was that I mean this is going to sound na my mother was very naive. You could get away with anything. My dad know but you

could get away with anything. If you

said I have a stomach ache I want to stay home from school. She'd let you stay home and then an hour after school started. You'd say I my stomach's

started. You'd say I my stomach's feeling pretty good. I want to do my stamp collection.

She was didn't even she trust you completely. Uh but but she was very

completely. Uh but but she was very tender. Very tender. So if we would

tender. Very tender. So if we would start arguing with each other at all. I

mean just normal kind of argumentation that brothers and sisters do. She'd stand up and she'd

sisters do. She'd stand up and she'd walk out of the room, go around the corner and go into the bedroom. And we

knew exactly what she was going to do.

She was going to go pray for us. And we

would just stop our just like that. She

didn't even say a word. She just went to the bedroom and we stopped because of the power of of But also my my brother, my older brother one time,

he was um he started uh courting a girl that wasn't from the church. I don't

think she really went to any church, but my brother was attracted to her. They're

like 16 years old, 17 maybe. Yeah, 17.

And um so he come home a little later from school and my mother asked him what he was doing and he said that you know he walked a girl home from school and the

mother wanted to know who it was and and she just said you know please please don't do that. But my brother went ahead and did it. But every day he'd come home

a little bit later and my mother' be in the kitchen and when he'd walk in he'd see some tears coming from her eyes and uh

he just couldn't he wasn't saved or anything but he just couldn't handle it.

Two weeks later, he goes to the girl. He

goes, "My mother is so upset that I'm going with you because you're not a Christian that I She's even weeping about it. I I

just can't take it. I just need I just need to break up with you because I can't handle my mother's tears."

[laughter] And and then my brother ended up with just a wonderful, wonderful wife. But my

mother won us with love. She won us with love.

And um well now talk to me about so we have prophet uh priest and uh talk about king for a moment. What

what do you mean h how how do you lead your home? Talking about

authority and yeah things like that. So

a king a king first of all defends his subjects. So you lovingly defend your

subjects. So you lovingly defend your family.

Um you defend your wife from thinking about maybe her looks or maybe her personality or maybe her inadequacies from thinking

the way the world thinks.

Honey, no matter you I love you and you are lovely in my eyes and you stop worrying about this or about that. You

know you you're defending her from the way the world thinks. You defend your children from the way the world thinks.

You defend them from from an overuse of the electronic media of the world. Um

you don't give them cell phones at too young of an age before they can handle it, etc., etc., etc. you defend your daughters especially but your sons too

from unwise romantic relationships.

Uh so that that's an that's an important thing. Uh

thing. Uh uh we we had we had one child who was a daughter who was quite shy and u very

had a lot of good virtues. I mean, just really I mean I always said to my wife, whoever gets her to be his wife,

honestly, um she's got a lot to offer a godly husband. And um she was our our

godly husband. And um she was our our easy child.

Um like low maintenance, just always obedient. I was I mean if if all our

obedient. I was I mean if if all our kids were like that, we would be way way too uncompassionate with people and problems

with their kids. So

I said to her one day after she graduated from high school, nobody had ever noticed her in the church, no guy.

I said, "You're going to college now, honey, and I'm a bit concerned about you. You're going to Christian college,

you. You're going to Christian college, but there's a lot of Christians there that don't believe a lot of things that we believe. And I'm afraid that

we believe. And I'm afraid that somebody's going to see your your virtues and go after you and you're going to fall in love with each other and the person maybe won't be reformed,

won't have the same kinds of convictions about lifestyle.

And she was driving, she was driving me home from a church service because she she wanted to go with me on a Sunday afternoon to visit a neighboring church.

And as I was talking to her and she's driving, I could still see her now. She

looks at me and she goes, "Dad, why are you worried?

You know, I would never go out with someone you didn't fully approve of."

And I'm going like, "Yeah, you know, but but she was saying to me between the lines, I know you'll defend me from the wrong kind of men." I mean

not with tears like my mother did with my brother but I would I would lovingly guide her and and defend her and say no this is not the right person for you and

protect. So defense and protection are

protect. So defense and protection are are two aspects of kingship that have some overlap, right? You defend even as you protect, but then you also you also

discipline and and as as a king and but you but you you discipline in love. Like

the Puritans would say, you if you're going to discipline a child in anger, you tell the child, "Wait a minute.

Daddy's gonna wait a while and and consider how he will discipline you for for for the sin you've committed and I'll come back to you shortly." And and you go away and you and and you cool off

and you get down on your knees and ask God to give you a spirit of love rather than anger. And you go back in your

than anger. And you go back in your discipline and love.

So kingship is not something very very threatening. It's something

that ought to be comforting for your family.

They ought to know I can go to my dad and ask him any question. I can go to my dad and trust him for his wisdom. I can

go to my dad and seek counsel.

And I know that my dad loves me enough to want the very best for me. So when he does speak into my life and wants to guide me in a certain way, I know he means my best.

That's what you have to cultivate.

I tell young men now when they're going to get married, I said, "Do you know the main thing that God is telling you and

they'll go, "What?" He's looking at you and he's saying, "You bring my daughter home to me."

Yeah. I don't care what you have to suffer, what you have to sacrifice, how tired you are. And there's a sense, I say it

you are. And there's a sense, I say it this way, I don't care if she meets your needs. I don't care if she's difficult.

needs. I don't care if she's difficult.

I don't you bring my daughter home to me.

And and of course, God does care about our needs, but you know, we have an over preoccupation with our needs. M

and to the degree that a man in any realm whether it's in the church or the family is given authority he's given authority to serve

and to bless and I believe that the greatest if someone asks me what is manhood because we have in a lack of manhood in

the world today we've got all these guys coming up that you know manhood is muscles and fighting and this and that and all these Manhood

is self-giving.

For God so loved the world, he gave Christ loved the church, he gave himself up for her. It is self-giving. When a

man will just give himself up for God or for his bride or for um children.

Absolutely. And this is exactly why Paul um my wife often says to to women who don't like the word submission. She'll

say if you've got a loving husband, submission is the easier end of the stick because the husband all the responsibilities of the home ultimately

rest on him. He's the leader. That's no

small thing to be the leader. To be the king, the loving king is no small thing.

Yeah. and be submissive to someone who's loving. That's not all that hard. And

loving. That's not all that hard. And

another thing, you know, because I have to lead in different situations on the mission field here, uh, at Heart Cry, what what people don't understand, and

some men don't, um, is a big part of leadership here, but also in my family, is calling upon counselors

to instruct me and recognizing they have the better answer. M

and in leadership my first counsel in family is my wife and and she is she's very different than

I am. She can see through things a lot

I am. She can see through things a lot quicker than I do. quicker eye and and so it's not that I go away and make a

decision and come and enforce it upon her but that of all the time it's drawing counsel from her learning

looking at her gifts and um you know sometimes the leader goes I'm going to lead and I'm going to make the decision we're going to do what you said because you have the right answer. Yeah, I I

totally agree with that. And my wife is a wise counselor for me. I talk over everything with her. I actually have said in my classes that when you have a really good relationship with your wife,

by the grace of God, um less than 1% of the time that you have to say, "Honey, I I I need to make this decision in this

way." And then she is to as long as

way." And then she is to as long as there's no sin issue, she is to bow swiftly under that and say, "I trust you." And even though I see it

you." And even though I see it differently, I I I I cheerfully uh will obey you on this. That is very very

rare. Um in fact, there are times when a

rare. Um in fact, there are times when a loving husband on things that are non-sin issues, talk him over with his wife, he wants to do one thing, she wants to do another.

[clears throat and cough] or you will actually say because I love you so much I I I actually want to do the thing you want to do rather than the thing I want to do because I'm going to sacrifice my own will for this because I

I care so much I care more about your feelings than my feelings because I love you. So I mean a very small example I

you. So I mean a very small example I use sometimes in classes is this apply this to bigger things as well. I say

okay tonight we we're going to go out to eat. She wants to go to PF Changs. I

eat. She wants to go to PF Changs. I

want to go to Mission Barbecue. Right.

And she said, "I'm really in the mood to go to PF Chains." Well, I'm in the mood to go to Mission Barbecue. Okay. She'll

say, "Okay, why don't we go to Mission Barbecue? I I I understand." And I said,

Barbecue? I I I understand." And I said, "No, no, no. I want to please you, my dear. I want to go to PF Chains now."

dear. I want to go to PF Chains now."

And so, I'll make the decision to actually go to PF Cheng. uh because I want pleasing her is a very major factor

in my decision- making right so I want to please her just like Christ wants to please his bride and his bride wants to

please Christ so we actually end up it's not an argument but discuss no I want to do what you want to do no I want to do what you want to do but what a wonderful

way to go you know uh that type of thing but a man can also So, um when if a

if a man is going to lead, he has to be that servant leader that he's making decisions.

And in many ways, he's completely out of it. He's not thinking about um his

it. He's not thinking about um his benefit. What do I get out? He's

benefit. What do I get out? He's

thinking, what does the law of God require? Whether we're Old Testament,

require? Whether we're Old Testament, New Testament, what does what are the commandments? What will please God?

commandments? What will please God?

What will most sanctify and benefit my wife and sanctify save, sanctify, and benefit my children? and and

children? and and we're raising I I tell um tell young boys one of the greatest manifestations

of of immaturity is self-p preoccupation and selfishness.

I want my way. What about me? You see

that that's what I believe a a big part of manhood is as you grow in manhood the what about me falls away. Yes.

falls away. Yes.

We don't see Jesus going, "What about me?"

me?" Yeah.

I mean, it was never that. It was what the father and his bride and and and that was it. And I I see boys, they're

40 years old, but they're going, they're all into their feelings. They're all

into what they're not getting out of this. And I said, "You have a task."

this. And I said, "You have a task."

I I said, "Me being evil, I would die a thousand deaths for my daughters. I I

have no I would to the end for those those those beautiful little girls of mine." Okay?

mine." Okay?

If I being evil can love my daughter that way, even though my daughters aren't perfect, right?

How much more does the heavenly father love that woman you're married to? And

he's like he and and another thing I think that we're missing, Paul talks about an extra way to glory.

Everything that we don't get in this life and we don't go after because we're thinking of others instead

of ourselves will be harder repaid.

Yes. Absolutely.

There is a future that and I don't I think Dr. Viki that that with all these things. One of the things that when I

things. One of the things that when I read the Puritans, it's not that they tried to say all kinds of things about heaven that are not revealed,

but oh brother, they talked about heaven a lot.

Yes.

And they talked about the reward of it.

Yep.

And Jesus never said anything wrong about seeking glory. Not just seeking the glory of God, but seeking glory from God. Yeah.

God. Yeah.

To one day, you know, when I You talked about playing basketball, there's an illustration I use all the time. When I when I played basketball,

time. When I when I played basketball, if I made two points or I did something, I didn't look at my coach. I looked up in the stand to see if my dad saw it.

Right.

And and and you know, I tell people, a true man is g is going to walk into heaven and the first thing he's going to look

for is his father.

And that elder brother.

And if he walks in and he looks up and the only thing he sees is this, it'll be enough to die 10,000 deaths.

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

There's 13 texts in the Bible that say that God will reward his people in heaven. I studied that subject once. And

heaven. I studied that subject once. And

uh we we don't do enough with that. I

mean, Paul said, you know, he's longing to go to receive the reward. And uh it's all by grace, right? [snorts] We're

behold the Belgian confession says we're beholden to God for the good works he enables us to do rather than he to us.

So it's just a joy to serve the Lord also as a husband a as as a father and sometimes that means self-sacrifice. It

means but see this whole thing you're talking about like the husband wanting running want running want running want running want running want running want running want running want running want running want running wanting my feelings m me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. This is all fruit of even shallow

me me. This is all fruit of even shallow Christendom binding into the philosophy of the world. You got to stand up for yourself. You got to fight for yourself.

yourself. You got to fight for yourself.

You got to live for yourself. And it's

all about you. But the center is is is Christ. Um tying this all together, what

Christ. Um tying this all together, what we've just been talking about last five minutes, I have a little story to tell you that's really sweet about my wife.

um being a king, we went we went to um uh Mississippi one time and there was a man there who was

actually um a senator, the youngest senator ever in the history of Mississippi.

He finally gave it up because he said he just felt like he couldn't be in politics and really live a consistently Christian life. So he he really

Christian life. So he he really struggled with that. He gave it up. He

was he was quite wealthy. And uh we came into this home. I never met him before.

This is where we were staying at where they gave us we were doing a conference staying by by his house. Walked in and

you could feel you could feel the tension in the home right away and they sat us down. Within 15 minutes, this man pours out his problem to us. his

daughter so badly wanted to be asked out by a certain young man and um

she finally succeeded and he asked her out and she said like her dad had trained her, "I'm be glad to go out with you, but first you need to meet with my

dad."

dad." He said, "I'm not going to meet with your old man.

I'm out of here." So she comes home sobbing, tells her mother, you know, about dad's repressive rules and so on. And tragically,

the mother says, "I I agree with you."

And she takes the daughter's side. So

now the husband and wife are totally against each other on this whole issue, and they're asking me for counsel. And I just met them. I'm

for counsel. And I just met them. I'm

like, "What in the world did I do to deserve this?" And I'm sitting there

deserve this?" And I'm sitting there thinking about the whole thing. I'm

debating and all of a sudden my wife speaks up and she's she calls him by name and she says, "You know, when we just came

through your garage into your home, we saw a Rolls-Royce in your garage."

And I'm thinking, what would you do if somebody rang your doorbell and just said, "Uh, Mr. So and

So, your keys, please. I want to take your Rolls-Royce for a spin." And it was a stranger, would you just give him the keys or

would you have him come in and talk to you, find out what kind of man this is?

Can he drive well?

And she pauses and they're thinking about it. And then she she she releases

about it. And then she she she releases the bombshell.

She looks over at the mother and she says to both of them she says, "Isn't your daughter worth far more than a Rolls-Royce?"

Rolls-Royce?" Bam. They got it. And they both

Bam. They got it. And they both acquiesed. The tension was taken out of

acquiesed. The tension was taken out of the room. The daughter was satisfied.

the room. The daughter was satisfied.

She was still hurt. But the mother was satisfied. It was reconciled. Suddenly

satisfied. It was reconciled. Suddenly

they realized this man was actually loving his daughter, standing up for her, defending her as a king because he wanted to talk

to that man because she was so valuable and he was is done out of love. That's a

father's a father's role to protect and to guide. Everything we

know about the will of God, it it comes forth from a character and from attributes that exist in perfect harmony. When the Bible says God is

harmony. When the Bible says God is perfect, we sometimes just think it's talking about purity, but it's talking about perfect harmony in all that he is.

We're work so conflicted. And so I'll tell men the will of God is perfect which means that it's complete which means that

you you can never say God in order to do this aspect of your will I must not obey this aspect.

I don't have time or this or that because God's will is perfect. So I tell especially men in the ministry. So let's

say you're single and you want to work 18 hours a day in the ministry. Knock

yourself out. Go ahead. Why? Because

there are commands of Christ that are dead to you and you're dead to them. The

commands, all the commands that have to do with a wife, all the commands that have to do with uh children, you don't have them. So, if you want to allocate

have them. So, if you want to allocate that time to ministry, go ahead. But the

moment you take a wife, you must allocate part of this time to the wife.

and it has to be conformed to the commands, the duties you're given.

And I said, if you're not willing to do that, you've already you've proven that your ambition was never to please him.

It was simply to build something. And then you allocate when

something. And then you allocate when you have children, there's more time that has to be allocated. I remember

something a woman said to her husband one time and no man should ever hear this but this is what she said.

He she was neglectful because of the ministry. And she said, "I am convinced

ministry. And she said, "I am convinced uh that you love God more than me," which is fine, but but

I'm also convinced that you love you more than both of us, more than God and more than me.

Wow.

So, yeah, you love you're putting ministry as a priority, but because you love yourself.

Yeah. And uh you know we constantly need to hear that.

Yeah.

Um God doesn't need us, right?

He delights in using us.

He doesn't need us. He desires that we be obedient. And

be obedient. And yeah, time management as a father and as a husband is so very very very important especially

in the ministry.

And it's a challenge. It can be a real challenge.

And um I I have a couple I I give to my theological students a a lecture on time management but it's not that I always succeed at it

myself, but I think there's two extremes today. One extreme is that

today. One extreme is that well the family's first.

So the church is kind of secondary. get

left over time and and you go in the pulpit unprepared because you were ministering to your family. That's

certainly wrong.

The other thing that's wrong is to say, well, [clears throat] everything about the church is so important that when something my son has something very

special, I'm not going to do that either because well, there's a church meeting that night.

No, you got to look at the whole picture and I don't like the idea of family first, church second. No, no. It's

very, very seldom when there's a conflict between providing you're giving your family time regularly and you're giving the church time regularly when there's a real conflict between the two.

In fact, in nearly 50 years, I can probably count them one certainly count them on two hands where I had to make a decision. two obligations

decision. two obligations coalesed and basically what I did was I think it's the right way to go when it was

very important I mean if my son had a very important event in his life I would work it out with with the church and say you know I I

just can't be there tonight I'm sorry and they would understand and then vice versa if it was a very important meeting in church

was something the family wanted me to do, but I I would go to the family and say, "I'm sorry. I just have to can we do it another time? I have to sacrifice this. I cannot I cannot miss this

this. I cannot I cannot miss this meeting." And

meeting." And I think when they feel your love and they feel that you're you're balancing things like this, they they have some understanding as well. But if it becomes

a habitual lifestyle where you're constantly preventing them and and and you also got to be constantly not giving them enough attention, you're you're in trouble. But you also have to remember

trouble. But you also have to remember there's a difference between one wife and another wife and between one child and another child.

Exactly.

So my wife is extremely good this way.

She feels she feels the importance of my ministry. In fact, someone came up to

ministry. In fact, someone came up to her recently and said, "You know what I love about you? I think you're as involved in your husband's ministry as he is." I mean, that that's a beautiful

he is." I mean, that that's a beautiful thing. You're a team, right? But

thing. You're a team, right? But

there is, you know, if I look back with regrets, I would say I wish that somehow I had spent I feel very comfortable with how much time I

spent my wife and still spend with her.

But with the children, I did have so many responsibilities and the cares of so many churches were upon me. It was it was challenging at times.

me. It was it was challenging at times.

I tried to do as much as I could with them, but I still feel some guilt that I should have done yet more. And you don't want to run your ministry in such a way

that when you're older, you feel strong guilt like that and feel that your children suffered in any way. And when I look back,

I I think one of my children um I really wish I'd spent more time with that child. didn't always realize how

that child. didn't always realize how much the child needed it until later.

And so I think you need to be more in tune with that maybe than I was from time to time. So

you know what I've learned that the growth or size of a ministry in your old age will bring you no satisfaction.

A life of obedience brings satisfaction. That's that's the

brings satisfaction. That's that's the difference.

And we we can all look back. That's why

we must always be blessed are those who mourn.

We're always broken men, right?

You know, in the end, there's one hero and it's Jesus.

Yeah.

The rest of us, he saved, right?

And but we do want to be, you know, and I I just feel like I need to say this.

One of the things also I' I'd encourage young young husbands because I'm seeing this far too much. One time at at the office here, someone said, "Why don't you go out with a bunch of us guys a

lot?" And I said, "Cuz my wife's

lot?" And I said, "Cuz my wife's prettier than all of you." And they said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I don't have time."

And and the guys at the office are biblical and they're they're great family men. But

family men. But my point is, a lot of young men are getting married and they're still running around in bachelor packs and wanting to spend all this time. If you

don't have that time, Yeah. you know, you spend time with your

Yeah. you know, you spend time with your wife and your children.

That's your priority, not going out with the boys, right?

Um I think that's important.

So I I love the way the p you know how the Puritans did that. It's really

clever. I mean it's biblical, but it's also clever, practically cle they actually organized it in like a chart and they said, "Okay, your priority relationship is with your wife, not your

kids, your wife, first of all.

Secondly, your children. Thirdly, your

parents. This is in your time management. Then your brothers and

management. Then your brothers and sisters. They even put in there your

sisters. They even put in there your cousins, nieces, and nephews.

And then just a little bit of time left.

Um, you know, if you went out today's language, you know, once a month and played a game of golf with some guys okay maybe bow hunting or bow hunting. Okay, bow hunt. Sorry.

Sorry.

Okay, fine. But you don't go out with the guys every week and spend more time with the guys than you do with your parents or or certainly not your

children or your wife. And it's also important for your children to know that they're number two and your wife is number one.

Absolutely.

And they because they're going to be married someday and they need to see you set that pattern. And so you as a

husband and father also as a king, you've got to protect your wife from child abuse. In other words, if the

child abuse. In other words, if the children get so used to see mom all the time because she's always around and they start lipping back to her a little bit, boy, your kids got to know this is

no go ground. This is a serious sin. you

respect my wife and your mother and you've got to let your kids know this is a serious sin in the eyes of God.

And and so this is a way also showing love to your wife and and protecting her and she will love you for it when she

can hear you say to the children, "Don't you ever say that again. you respect

your mother and that if you ever say that again, I'm I'm going to punish you severely.

Yeah, that type of thing.

Yeah. I tell young husbands or fathers, I go, "Do you know the greatest gift you can give your children?" And they go, "What?" Love their mother.

"What?" Love their mother.

Yes. I I believe that. I believe it's really true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, brother, we've Let me Let me get back just this one thing just I I want you to know. Um, again, I I

uh you didn't come to me and say, "Could you do an interview?" I called you about this book. I called David Woolen about

this book. I called David Woolen about this book. Um, when I first read the

this book. Um, when I first read the manuscript and um it was so helpful to me because even the things that I've said here

about family and I want people to know it, they're true and I seek to live them. But I need help just like anyone

them. But I need help just like anyone else. I need I need codes. I need I need

else. I need I need codes. I need I need people. I need teaching. I need

people. I need teaching. I need

correction. I need rebuke.

And I need training and righteousness.

And I feel like this little book is just an heirloom almost. Um and and I I thank you.

Yeah.

I thank God for writing it.

Yeah. the you know the Puritans so often said the best way to preach or teach or write or do anything is to do it to yourself first.

So I'm with you. I need to I need to read what I wrote again myself because you always tend to take your loved ones for granted and you need to sit back

again periodically and say wait a minute am I really fulfilling my God my God- centered Christ glorifying biblicalbased mandate as a husband and as a father and

this is more important isn't it ridiculous I mean it's ridiculous if you think about it if you have some company come over for a Friday night to your home to visit. You're on your best

behavior and you're very careful what you say that you don't offend them in any way and you treat them really well.

Give them great hospitality and then they leave and you can treat your wife or your kids at a lower level than you treated the company. Ought not

so to be, right? And we're all we're all guilty of that kind of thing, I think, to some degree. Say, "No, no, no. I got

to treat my wife." That's why I always call her the queen. She's a queen to me.

I got to treat her like she's a queen.

And and and my children, I got to treat them with great honor and love and dignity. Oh God, so help me to do so.

dignity. Oh God, so help me to do so.

Amen. Well, thank you. Well,

thank you.