Building the Star Trek computer with Huxe CEO Raiza Martin

First access question. Which Star Trek

captain is your favorite?

My gosh, there's only one. I can't

believe it. Of course, it's Picard.

I mean, I grew up with Jane Way. I don't

know.

Jane Way's number two.

Do it.

I feel strongly about this.

Yo, as long as we're pulling from

references outside of her and Minority

Report, I think we're going to have a

better time than the average tech

podcaster company.

Welcome to Access from the Vox Media

Podcast Network. I'm Ellis Hamburger

here with my co-host Alex Heath. Today

we caught up with Ryza Martin,

co-founder of Hu, a new app that turns

your calendar, emails, and news into a

daily personalized podcast just for you.

I think it's pretty fresh, honestly. one

of my favorite apps I've tried lately

and a really nice opinionated take on

making all this research behind AI a bit

more practical. Uh before Hux, you might

have known Ryza as the creator of

Notebook LM at Google, one of their

bigger experimental product successes of

the last few years. Um yeah, this was a

fun one, Alex.

Yeah, Rise was awesome. We really got

into it. I loved hearing about her

backstory, too, and just how she's

thinking about all this uh and how she's

thinking about putting us out of a job.

Yeah, I loved that part. Uh don't often

think about getting disrupted

in this profession, this line of work,

but uh yeah, I guess we have to look

over our shoulders. Uh today we get into

everything from raising VC money without

a deck. Didn't see that coming. building

the Star Trek computer of Rise's Dreams

since she was just a child. And uh

Weather Hux is gonna disrupt your new

favorite podcast hosts before we've even

gotten to our 100th episode, let alone

our 10th.

We're not even on episode 10. Yeah. Oh

man, wild times we

We're just a baby podcast. Please like

and subscribe, folks. Please like and

subscribe. Uh but first, a couple things

to discuss. We are taping on Tuesday.

Yesterday, Alex was in San Francisco for

the sixth time in the last six days. How

was uh how was OpenAI Dev Day?

Yeah. Uh did the classic Burbank to

Oakland day trip uh which has become a

regular fixture of of my life. And uh it

was a good day. It was a long day. got

some facetime with OpenAI execs at SAMA.

Uh interviewed Greg Brockman. There was

a pretty lengthy Q&A where we got to ask

a lot of questions and that was pretty

interesting. And yeah, just generally

feeling the vibes. Um I wrote about this

in in sources um my my newsletter

sources.news, but it just is so clear

how Open AI owns the tech culture

zeitgeist right now. just how ascendant

and seemingly unstoppable they are. And

this was at Fort Mason in San Francisco,

which the last time I went to an event

there was actually earlier this year for

another Sam Alman special, Worldcoin,

which is a a very uh sci-fi eyeball

scanning orb startup that will maybe one

day save us from AGI running the

economy. That's a whole another topic.

we we don't have time to get into today,

but I was also actually thinking about

um when I went to Fort Mason for events

way back in the day. Do you know about

this space? Uh it's kind of down by the

Golden Gate Bridge. It's beautiful. It's

right there on the water. Have you been

there before, Alice?

No, I don't get invited to events of

that caliber.

Well, at least not yet. That's why I

started a podcast.

Facebook used to have its developer

conference back when it was called FA

there, and I remember going there. God,

it must be like 2018, 2017 or something.

And the energy felt retro in that way.

Like there was just so much uh interest

in OpenAI as this platform for

developers and them building this um

this new culture like kind of right

before everyone's eyes in only a matter

of a couple of years. There is this

moment where I took this photo of

walking into the main hall, thousands of

people just solemnly seated just uh

trying to learn everything they can

about all the new agent stuff that

OpenAI announced. Um and it was wild to

think about like this company as a

commercial entity did not exist like

more than 3 years ago and now it's like

the place to be. uh this week in SF was

at this event and it even reminded me

and this is probably because Johnny IV

uh was the penultimate uh conversation.

He and Sam did a did a chat at the end

of the day. Um even like a early Macel

vibe uh which I hadn't felt at an event

in a long time just in terms of the

energy. So yeah uh for now it seems like

Open AI is on top of the world and I

guess the question is can they stay

there?

Yeah, I mean you would if you would have

told us a few years ago that there'd be

a new product that has 800 million

weekly active users and that is the only

thing that anyone wants to write or talk

about. And uh Sir Johnny IV is even

involved. You would have been like

excuse me.

Yeah. And I think the big thing for me

was that open now wants to be this this

uh distribution surface for apps. They

basically want chatbt to exist uh

upstream of your digital life. And the

big shift was like you can use Spotify

in chatt the actual graphical interface

not just kick you out to the app or

Zillow or Corsera they Figma you know

shout out um previous guest Dylan Field

like he was there and this idea that

Chashib is more like an operating system

was the theme of the day for sure. um at

the Q&A uh with the exacts after the

keynote uh Nick Turley the head of

chatbt said a quote that really stuck

with me. He said, "What you're going to

see over the next 6 months is an

evolution of chat GPT from an app that

was really useful into something that

feels a little bit more like an

operating system where you can access

goods and services. So this idea of like

the chat GPT economy is a thing I think

we're going to be talking about more in

the months ahead.

Yeah. I mean, everybody and their mother

wants to be an operating system in tech.

I mean, that's the ultimate honor. I

mean, that's, you know, honestly, one of

the things I enjoyed most about being at

Snapchat and the browser company. I

mean, there was a time where Snapchat

was kind of like, you could call it the

operating system for Gen Z. You know,

there was a camera app, there was a

photos app, there was a news app, there

was a messaging app. And it's so fun to

try and use your position to help people

in multiple parts of their lives. And

now that people are starting to ask chat

GPT more and more things, they're in a

position to capture that intent the way

Google once could, but now actually due

to agents take action as well, whether

you want to play a song or this or that.

And I mean that's kind of the crazy part

is that Apple is really the company that

or or Google with Android are so well

positioned to try and figure this stuff

out and say, "Hey, we're going to be in

between you and everything your phone

can do." I feel like Apple was working

on App Intense a little while ago. I'm

not I'm not even sure what happened with

that. But as everybody kind of sits

around and says, "Oh, it doesn't scale

or we can't make it work." OpenAI is

like, "We're just going to do this with

our services partners just through the

web. we don't even need to have a

hardware piece.

They're going to make hardware as well

just to see if they can beat everybody

there as well. But yeah, it really does

feel like there is a new OS race going

on uh with AI at the center of it. And I

mean, as we tal about with Ryza, it's

like AI and voice is not great for

everything. You know, you can't draw an

entire user interface uh for looking

through all your photos, at least for

now inside of Chat GBT. But you can bet

that they're thinking about it and

trying to move toward a world where

whatever modality you want to choose,

they're going to let you.

Yeah, there was a moment in the Johnny

Sam talk where I mean Johnny, you know,

he's really good at saying a lot and not

saying much at all in terms of giving

things away. I think everyone was on the

edge of their

Yeah, I think everyone was on the edge

of their seat. Uh I mean, he was like

the celebrity of the day. Like everyone

was taking their phones out to take

photos as he came on stage. Like, oh, is

he finally going to share what this

first device is? he's working on with

OpenAI. And of course, he didn't. But

there was a moment to your point about

the OS where Sam asked uh you know, does

an OS even matter anymore? Like should

we be rethinking like the value of an

operating system with AI? And Johnny

seemed to agree that the OS matters less

and less, especially with voice. And I

do think their device will be um voice.

Um, a really funny thing actually now

that I'm remembering that I heard from a

from a source recently was that uh

Johnny's been thinking a lot about the

Walkman and how this device could uh be

culturally fun. And he was talking about

this on stage like uh can we just, you

know, go back to making things that are

fun and not so serious? And I I actually

do expect this first device that they

put out to be a little more whimsical

than maybe people will expect. the

visionaries seem to go very much one way

or the other. I feel like I mean one of

the things I'm reminded of is uh when

Kanye West collaborated with Teenage

Engineering on the original Stem Player,

it started as like very industrial and

minimal and Kanye being as kind of

plugged into culture as he is and and

thinking about art as kind of this,

you know, amorphous organic. Yeah.

organic process. He's like, "Actually,

no. We're scratching this entire thing.

We're going to make it like an alien

flesh ball, you know, from like a

Croninburgg movie or something like

that." And and that's what he ended up

going going out with. And there is no

doubt that it felt truer to like his

vision and also just even more

differentiated. And so, yeah, I would

bet uh you're right that whether it's

color, whether it's with rubber cases,

whether it is with Johnny doing another

iPod sock.

I I I forget if that was his idea. Do

you remember that one?

The original iPod mini had a sock you

could put it put it.

No, I feel bad that I don't. As a former

Apple blogger, I should know this, but

no, I forgot.

It was like a little like Christmas

stocking that you could drop your new

iPad mini into. Yeah. I mean, Apple, you

know, I don't know if they get enough

credit for for the accessories around

their around their products, but the

the only other thing I'll say about Deb

Day, uh, and this was in in my in

sources, but, um, it was a really funny

moment. But it just kind of like

encapsulated to me the moment we're

living in and the the generational

culture shift in tech that's happening

cuz um after Sam and Johnny got off

stage, I ran outside to a table outside

of the venue and it happened to be right

next to Johnny's Range Rover where I

could tell like his security was there

and he was going to come out and get

jetted out of the of the venue pretty

fast. And I was sitting there writing u

my you know finishing up the the hit

send um for sources and uh Johnny comes

out he gets mobbed right um I took a

photo there's just like all these people

trying to there's a guy with the

Monontlair jacket that Johnny designed

wanting him to sign it and you know he's

like a he's like a a rare bonafide

celebrity that kind of crosses um that

crosscuts across you different age

groups and anyway I'm I'm sitting there

I'm watching all this happen and then

there's these probably like early 20's

developers next to me at a table that I

don't think they could tell I was

overhearing them and they were all like,

you know, watching it and they're like,

"Should we go over there?" Oh, that's

Johnny. Should we go like get a selfie?

And I swear to God, one of them just

like dead panned totally serious like

why would I do that when I can put him

in any Sora video I want? And then they

were all just like, "Yeah, good point."

And then they walked away. And I was

like, damn, that's like that is this

moment in a nutshell is like OpenAI, the

most valuable private company in the

world, has Johnny IV, you know, the most

legendary tech designer of all time,

doing hardware, and at the same time,

this is a company that is just like

really resetting

uh how we think about the future while

also pulling from the past. I just

thought it was it was a funny moment.

Well, it is interesting, right? Because

at the same time that that is happening

with this fear of manufacturing

whatever we need at scale the desire

whether it is for Johnny's snappy

Monontlair jacket or the new uh thinking

hats from Claude I mean there there's a

lot of reason to believe that this whole

scarcity you know luxury of physical

goods is going to be back with an

absolute vengeance and stronger than

ever. And I mean, it's not like the bar

is even that high. Like, you make a

thinking cap and 700 people line up on

the street because it's rare, you know,

whether it's with Leubu or or anything

else. Um, happy I finally get to bring

up Leubu on the pod. Uh, I think those

two things go hand in hand, right?

Yeah, for sure. I was actually really

curious what you thought of that

anthropic popup over the weekend uh in

the West Village. It went super viral on

Twitter. There were hundreds of people

lined up. It made me yearn for the days

when I was a baby New York tech reporter

and I think I would have just, you know,

gone and done like a 12 photo slideshow

of like what it was like at the

anthropic popup uh for BI or something

like 10 years ago. I don't know. Were

you thinking about that? Yes, I think

it's fine. I liked it. But I think it's

just another example of like tech people

being exposed to like

consumer fashion brand level work and

they're like, "Holy [ __ ] they're not

talking about the product. That's

incredible."

They're just talking about their ethos.

Wow, I need that hat. You know, but it's

like there was the outdoor voices like

doing things hat. uh probably 10 years

ago. I mean, to me, it's just kind of

that in another in another way. And

what's kind of ironic is that the people

who want the thinking hat most are the

ones who relative to the rest of the

world are outsourcing their thinking

most to AI, you could say.

Yeah, you're right.

But, uh, hey, I mean, it's, uh, better

than a hat that says, "Use my app."

Actually, no. Maybe that's a good ironic

hat we could release. I do think it's

smart that Anthropic is positioning

itself as anti-Slop.

I mean, the slop is working. People do

like it. And I don't know how much you

want to be in the position of being like

the scold. Like, let's get back to

twirling our mustaches and thinking

like, sure, that appeals to a subset of

intellectuals, probably myself included,

within tech. But I'm a lot more

interested in the distinction between

slop that has no conceivable purpose

besides to just like tickle your lizard

brain for a second or slop that just

kind of looks sloppy but it still

incorporated whatever your vision was

for what you wanted to create. So yeah.

Well, speaking of no slop, speaking of

actually good, useful AI, should we go

to our chat with Risa?

Yeah, let's kick it to Risa.

All right, let's go Hawks.

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[Music]

Risa, welcome to the show. We're so

happy to have you.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

And uh we all know audio is the very

best format for entertainment and

content these days. Something you've

been thinking about I know for a pretty

long time dating back to creating

Notebook LM at Google and now Hux. Why

why is audio such a thing for you? I

mean, I think for me the the number one

thing that I love about audio is it's

the first way that we really transformed

stuff with AI, right? Where it's like

you can take something in its original

format. And specifically, I'm talking

about the long PDFs, the long slides,

the long emails, and you can say, "Look,

instead of reading it on my screen for

the next 30 minutes, I'm just going to

go on a walk and listen to it." And

that's been for me a magical experience

over and over and over again. And so I

just want to keep exploring.

Yeah. And take us back to your

childhood. I know there was a moment

back then. I'm a Star Trek fan. And so

when you told me off camera that you

were into Star Trek, I was like, "We

need to talk about Star Trek as soon as

possible."

This is so funny. I actually have been

rewatching a bunch of The Next

Generation.

And there was actually specifically a

scene, you know, anybody who's watched

Star Trek, they do this thing where

they're always talking to the computer.

And it's just such a if you've watched

as a kid, you're just like that's how

computers ought to work. You stand in

front of the thing and you say computer

and then you issue the command, right?

And it just happens. And like last

night, the episode I was watching the

card was like computer transfer all

authorization to the new captain. It's

like no fussing around with the

computer, no transfer, no typing, right?

Nobody's ever going

and it just happens. And so it's it's

totally magical. I think it's a the

interface of the future. I would love to

know about working at Google. You were

there for a while, right? What was it

like first arriving at Google, feeling

the culture, figuring it out, and then

up to when you left?

Oh man. I mean, these are pretty big,

very distinct chunks in history for me.

Um, so when I arrived at Google, I

didn't have a degree. And you know, for

me personally, it was like I felt like I

had snuck in somehow, especially because

I felt like the people at Google that I

was meeting were just like the smartest,

most creative, most accomplished people.

And I was like, and somehow I'm in the

leagues with them. And um I had been

working at startups previously. I'd

basically done like every job at a

startup. Eventually became head of

product at like a a small medium-sized

startup. And so when I got to Google, I

was like half of me was like, "Wow, I

earned this. I worked so hard to get

here." But then the other half was like,

"Oh no, it's like how do I do my best to

fit in?" And so actually starting out at

Google, I feel like for the better part

of like a year, I was just trying to be

like everybody else that was there. And

so I would do this thing where I would

just like copy how people were saying

things, right? Like I use the word

orthogonal so much.

Uh, I I

somehow Orthogonal made it all the way

down to LA as well.

Oh no.

Snap a few years ago. It was like it was

like a virus.

Oh there

all the PM started saying orthogonal.

And I'm like, "All right, I see. I see.

This is the new one."

Orthogonal. It's not trivial, nonzero.

Right. We We can keep going. But there's

definitely like uh the the vocabulary

that I was like, "Oh, I got to like say

these words. I got to do things a

certain way. I have to write things a

certain way. you know, I just have to

fit in so that they don't discover that

I am who I am. And I think something

happened um partway through. I I started

working in ads. I left ads. I started

working in payments. Um and it was in

payments that I had this realization

where I was like, you know, I didn't

come here to go be somebody else. I

guess I really would just like to be me.

And it was this like kind of unfurling

of my fake personality

where I was just like I just want to be

me as I actually exactly am. And so we

started going to meetings and I would

say things like wow this is like a

really stupid idea. Like I don't know

why why we came up with this. This is

really bad. It's as if we didn't think

about the user. And that was really

controversial because Google is such a

peaceful place where everybody is so

smart and respectful towards each other

that if you just said things like that,

people would be like, "Oh my gosh, you

know, why did she do it?" Um, and I had

a lot of fun doing it. I realized this.

I was like, "Wow, I can just be me." And

it actually seems to be a lot faster at

getting the message across than, you

know, writing a dock, socializing the

dock, like getting people on board. I

was like, I have a totally different way

of doing this, which is just I'm going

to say exactly what I think. And I had I

had pretty good success in payments. I

worked on these like 0ero to1 features,

0ero to1 product. And so when Google

labs had just started, um my old boss

Josh Woodward uh was one of the folks

that started Google Labs with Clayore.

And I remember I saw, you know, he left

payments and he had joined this thing

totally new. There was like nobody in

the org. It was just them. And I was

like, "Oh, I bet this is like one of

those like rest and vest situations,

huh?" I was like, "I bet he's getting

fired."

The scene in Silicon Valley where

they're chilling on the roof with the

bean bag couches. Yeah.

Oh, 100%. You hear it right in these

like big tech companies where everybody

has like a fake title or whatever, but

they're just chilling. And I was like,

"Wow, I can't believe it." And it's

super funny in hindsight because Josh

now leads Gemini. So, he definitely

wasn't getting fired, right? He was

definitely doing something else. It was

like pretty important. Um, but I

messaged him and I was like, "What are

you doing? What is that thing that you

were working on that has nobody on it?"

And he was like, "Oh, let me tell you

what it is." And he tells me it's AI.

And this is in 2022, right? Pre-Chat

GBT, even pre-Lambda as far as like, you

know, what the public consciousness was

aware of. And I remember thinking, AI,

it's just like a word we've thrown

around for years, but it doesn't mean

anything, right? especially like for me

where I was like AI means like Star

Trek, right? It's like and until it's up

like Star Trek quality, like don't call

me like I really have no interest

whatsoever. Um but he was like no it's

actually pretty good. So he did the

initial demos of Lambda. He showed me um

we had like some pretty rudimentary apps

inside of Google and I was like wow I

don't really know what this is but it

seems really interesting. And so I

studied really hard like before I even

got the job. And by studying I mean I

spent like two days like reading as much

as I could and that was like the extent

of it. But then I pinged Josh and I was

like whatever it is I'm in right. I was

like hire me. I was like I'm the guy.

Like whatever it is you think you're

going to build with this it's me. And uh

he's crazy. He really did hire me. And

so I was I was the first PM he hired uh

into labs and I launched AI test kitchen

uh launched notebook LM previously known

as Project Tailwind. Uh, but yeah, I

just have had just like the craziest

time over the last three years like

building cool [ __ ]

How many things at Google have been

called labs over the last 20 years?

That's my question.

Well, it's got to be like at least a

dozen. It's like we're introducing a new

labs division within the existing labs

division.

I mean, it's such a popular word and

it's such a cool word, right? Because a

lab just sort of inspires this like

scientific exploratory juice where

you're like, I get to do fun [ __ ] I

work in a lab. Um, and I think what's

really cool is

maybe not so cool when we started Google

Labs, we discovered there was previously

a Google Labs already that had been

started and killed.

Yeah.

And so there was a little bit of

confusion where they were like, "Oh, is

it the same thing?" And I'm like, "I

don't even know what the old thing was,

right?" And then when when the new

Google Labs got started, everybody at

Google wanted to have a labs, too. was

like search labs, photos labs, YouTube

labs, and then it was like, well, what

is the difference between all the labs?

And I honestly think like if you paused

for a second to think about the answer,

like you would fall down a rabbit hole

so deep that you would become

unproductive. And for sure, like I saw

people sort of like thinking about this

philosophical problem because Google

gives you the space to think about

whatever you want. And I was like, I am

not interested in this sort of problem

whatsoever. And so I just did not

participate in that convo as much as I

could.

I'm still curious about the origin of

Notebook um LM and how you guys decided

to focus on that as a product. It was

it's one of the rare

consumer viral breakout hit products

from 0ero to one that Google has done in

a long time. And I'd love to know like

how did you guys come up with it and

then what was it like experiencing that

traction that happened so fast? I thank

you for saying that it happened so fast,

but it had actually been around for like

two and a half years before it blew up

and so we were really like grinding in

the darkness for a long time. Um, you

know, not not that dark, but it was like

relatively unknown. Um, as far as the

origin of it, I mean, I think one of the

things that's most magical about

Notebook LM is that we started the

project before Chat GPT. And so, the use

cases were not actually that obvious,

but I think there was sort of a a really

interesting prevailing thought that we

had, which was look, there's probably

something interesting you could do with

a chatbot that you could just talk to

about anything, right? And that's sort

of like the varietal that we have

ChachiBT, Gemini, Claude, etc. today.

And that's how a lot of them started.

But then there's a second group of

thinking or or type of thinking, which

is what I think we fell into, which was

no, I actually don't want to talk about

arbitrary random things. I want to talk

about a collection of things that I

really care about for some reason or

another. And this sounded really vague

in the beginning, but um I I think I

told Ellis this. The reason why it was

so compelling to me was because I had

done this crazy thing where, you know,

if you remember, I had joined Google and

I didn't have a college degree and I had

this like chip on my shoulder. I decided

now that I had Google money, finally I

was going to go to college, right? I was

like, there's there's a couple ways to

solve this chip on my shoulder. One way

is I can certainly just get my degree so

that I can't be found out. Um, and so I

went back to college. And so by the time

you know we had started notebook LM this

particular project I was like well it

seems like what these LLMs are good at

are words and you know what has a lot of

words in it are textbooks and slides and

like all of these class notes and what I

would really really like is to create a

container of all of this stuff and I

just want to talk to it and at the time

that we you know when we were building

it it was just not possible. It was

super brittle. It was really hard, but I

was like, we're at Google. Like, it's

only going to get better. And so, I was

betting on the future. We built the

product like with with this specific

vision in mind, which is actually it's

kind of funny because it was like kind

of hard in the beginning to convince

people that this was an interesting

thing to work on. Um, just like from a

product perspective.

But it was true that as the technology

got better and better and better, my

grades got higher and higher and higher.

No, I'm just kidding. I I mean that I

mean that jokingly, but it was true. It

did actually start to perform. uh better

and better and better as the context

windows got better. Um the model got

better. There's just a lot that that

eventually like by the time it blew up

with audio overviews, the app itself was

pretty robust.

How was the reception within Google for

a runaway PR success like that?

Oh my gosh. I mean, I think it's

interesting because I I I think about

where Google was um when this had

happened. I think like it felt a little

bit like it's a giant company, but it

felt like we were like on our back foot

somehow, right? Like you could read

pretty much anywhere and people were

just like, "Oh, Google got beat, right?

They invented the transformer, but so

what?" And it was just like really

negative. And I think like working at

Google, it felt really weird because you

were this like trillion dollar company,

but you felt somehow like a product

underdog, right? It was like people had

largely sort of written us off as like

not being an interesting product place.

And I just didn't buy it. I was like,

you know, something is going to happen

soon, right? And if I if I had a say in

this, like we're going to do something

interesting soon. And um I would say

that there was like this sort of frenzy

in between when chat GPT happened and

when you know notebook LM blew up. There

was like this frenzy in the middle of

just like we have to win right there is

like an energy of like we have to do

something but it was a little chaotic

because everybody was just trying stuff

and then there's like layers of politics

on top of it. There's a whole cast of

characters that are constantly like

moving things around and like for me the

notebook LM team was tiny like my whole

thing was like I just need to insulate

this like core group of people and keep

them focused right and it's something

and I just believe like something

interesting will happen if you do

something for long enough something

interesting will happen and I was like

it's just my job to just like shield

this team and just keep going and I

think um when notebook LM did blow up

the thing that was most surprising was

how I felt like the narrative changed

and I it was really really to me one of

like the most culturally like shocking

things where I felt like there was the

narrative of like Google is like this

like dumb product organization whatever

they can't build new things. it felt

really prevalent to wow they're back

they're doing cool things turns out they

can build new things and I think like it

started to to really pick up like in

terms of like the momentum like AI

studio right especially like with Logan

like tweeting so much it's just like wow

they're actually like cool people nano

banana jewels like look at all this

stuff that they're able to ship really

quickly and so I feel like if I had to

sort of think about the difference

between these two times where Google was

not cool Google becoming Cool. There was

like a very clear moment there where I'm

like, "Oh, we helped kickstart that

movement."

You made Google. Put that on your

business card.

Can't wait. Can't wait to put that on my

LinkedIn.

I feel like Google being cool oscillates

maybe at like an increasing speed these

days.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think like the the

meme, right, is just like everybody just

takes turns. It's like it's OpenAI

today, it's Google tomorrow, it's

anthropic the next day, Grock even. Like

I don't

Wait, so also you're telling me the 20%

time is actually real?

Yeah. Um, well, I mean, it's not really

20%. I think that's the most uh

ridiculous thing about it. Um, because

at the time I was leading AI test

kitchen and um this was so funny. Like I

can't believe like Josh tricked me into

this. He was like, "And while you're

working on AI test kitchen," he's like,

"Why don't you build a new business for

Google?" And I'm like, "Wow, sounds

great. Sounds like a cool opportunity,

right? I'm going to go build something.

Um, but it was very hard because

shipping AI test kitchen was hard. Um,

and then you had to think about this

like totally new thing on the side with

the same team that you had. And so we

really did have to pull volunteers from

like literally like every corner of the

earth that you could find inside of

Google that you, you know, a person that

you could get jazzed about this like

really foreign concept of like upload a

document and talk to it. especially

because like in the beginning there were

not a lot of documents you could upload.

Um but yeah, I mean we were able to pull

through and I think like to to the

credit of I think leadership at Google,

we did all of these demos and they were

like, "All right, keep going. Seems

weird, seems good, keep going." And

yeah, we did.

It is a testament. I feel like you could

spend your your free time on working

toward your next performance review or

building the new or building the new

revenue stream for for Google and I

think we know which one most people

choose.

Well, I'll be very honest that I did not

ever write my performance reviews. I

think like there was a very clear period

in time where I just completely stopped.

I was like, you know, I really do not

like doing this and I am only committed

to doing things that I like and so I

stopped doing it. There are tens of

thousands of big tech employees who

agree with you and also do not like

their performance review.

My my manager like there was like one

cycle where she was like you are so

overdue on like your performance review.

She's like how about I write it. I was

like smashing idea. Yeah, I think you

should.

I mean I think you have another winning

product there Risa.

Oh yeah. AI for performance reviews.

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That's work.devaccess.

So you're riding high. You've made

Google cool and then you decide to leave

and do a startup. Is that what happened?

Yes. Yes. I actually um I think it was

so unbelievable to many people that they

thought I was unwell. And I didn't

realize it until later that that people

thought I might have not been okay, but

they, you know, I'll never forget when I

when I quit. Um Josh was like, "Hey,"

he's like, "Maybe you need a break."

He's like, "Maybe you just need a

vacation. Maybe you're tired." And I was

like, "Josh, what are you talking

about?" I was like, "This is the biggest

moment in my life. I'm like taking this

thing that I worked so hard for and I am

leaving it behind because I see the

promise of something else outside." I

was like, "I've never thought clearer in

my life." And it was actually quite

emotional for me, you know, because of

like what I had shared earlier, which

was I didn't come from a, you know,

particularly wealthy background. Like I

immigrated to the states. I didn't get

to go to college. And I found myself at

Google making more than I ever had in my

life. And I was just suddenly ready to

walk away from it. And so there was

actually one night I woke up, it was

like at 4:00 a.m. And I just burst into

tears. I was just like crying, right?

And this was before I quit. I was about

to quit and I was crying and my husband

was just so startled. He was like, "Are

you okay? Does something hurt? Do you

have to go to the hospital?" And I was

like, "I'm so like emotional about this

moment because I realized that my dream

was to go start a company." And I was

like, I have never felt that the right

time was now more than ever. But I also

have never felt so poor in my life. I

was like, "It's just so it's so crazy

that I like am imagining walking away

from this thing that I I built for me

and my family." And my husband was

looking at me. He's just like, "Listen

to this." He's like, "Listen." He's

like, "You know, they're going to try to

give you like money to stay, right?" But

he's like, "But how much do you think

you're worth? How much are your IDs

worth?" I was like, "What?" He's like,

"What's the number?" He's like, "How

much is your ID worth?" I was like, "I

don't know." He's like, "Okay, is it $10

million?" I was like, "I don't know."

He's like, "Is it a hundred million?"

And I'm like, "What are you asking me?"

I'm like balling my eyes out. You're

asking me a number. And he like grabs

me. He's like, "Listen, girl." He's

like, "You are not a $10 million girl.

You're not even a hundred million girl."

He's like, "You're a $1 billion idea

girl." He's like, "You go out there, you

do it." And he's like, "And I got you."

And I'm like, "What? Where did he get

this?" At like 4 in the morning. But it

was to me like just one of the most like

impactful moments of my life where I was

like here I am you know thinking about

it this way and I live with this person

who sees me in this like totally

different way and he was like you go get

it. He's like you go quit your job. He's

like don't go into this afraid. And I

was like man wow. Yeah. Crazy.

I think he's coming on the show next.

What a guy.

He's a very He's a very private like

very introverted guy. That's why like

the pep talk came out of nowhere. So,

sounds like the goat to me.

Yeah, it it was pretty good.

I so identify that with that as someone

who just left uh the best job I'd ever

had to start my own thing and to start

my own company. And Ellis has started

his own company. And yeah, I feel like a

lot of people can identify with that

roller coaster you just described.

Congrats to all.

Yeah, but you have to you have to have

something that you're working towards.

You have to have something that is so

motivating for you to leave that safety

net, right? And so I'm curious like what

was that besides like I want to start a

company? What was the like product

insight or the thing that you were like

this has to exist?

So I think it's crazy because the idea

that we left with is not even the idea

that we've built and I tell this to

everybody which is look you know

especially if you're coming out of a

large company or you're working like a

role the idea that you have is going to

change. And I think the thing you have

to have faith in is that you are going

to be able to navigate it. Like don't

bet on your idea, but bet on yourself,

right? Bet on your ability to navigate

whatever the thing is that you're doing.

And that has proven true for us. But the

specific idea that we actually quit

with, um, it feels funny to describe it

now, but I I remember at the time I was

like, you know what, somebody needs to

give these LLM computers so that they

can actually do interesting things. And

I was like, why don't we build a

platform to basically spin up a bunch of

LLMs or agents as we call them now. Give

them computers, give them autonomy, give

them access to Slack and messages and

phone and have them go do interesting

things on your behalf and they just talk

with you just like regular people do.

And that was actually the that was the

idea that we quit with. And then when we

quit, we were like, well, wait a second,

you know, let's take 3 days, just study

what's out there, take a beat, be like

real human beings, and see what is it

that we want to build. And so the idea

morphed many, many times before we got

to where we are today.

That's uh uh something every VC loves to

hear, right? The founders that are just

kind of obsessed with a specific problem

space and they're going to get there

somehow someway. I guess for you it's

like been to Sid's childhood.

Yeah. that you're after this. They're

like, "Yeah, I'm putting money on that

girl."

Yeah. I mean, I I have loved like

technology since I was like the

beginning of time. And I honestly like I

I remember building computers with my

dad. Like even though we didn't have

much money, my dad was like, "We could

buy parts and we could like build our

own computer." And I've just like been

that way my whole life. And I think um

it's so funny. There was a a publication

wrote to me. They were like, "Hey, you

know, congrats on your fund raise. Do

you want us to publish the deck that you

used to raise money?" Because like

that's like a thing we do. We share with

people how, you know, people are raising

money these days. And I had to write

back and I was like, there was no deck.

I didn't have a deck. Like I just went I

met with VCs and I was like I I did have

a moment where I was like, should I have

one? But it was very similar to like how

I felt when I was at Google where I was

like, well, I could do it the way that I

think other people do it or I could just

do it the way that I think I want to do

it. And the way that I just wanted to do

it was I wanted to show up and be like,

look, here I am. I have an idea. The

idea could be kind of cool. But the

thing that's actually really cool is

it's me and a group of people that I

know can build something interesting. So

it's like you can bet on the people or

you can bet on the idea, right? Which

kind of person are you?

Let's shift gears to Hux where we are

today. How would you describe what it

is?

Wow. Well, uh, today I would describe it

as a personalized audio app that creates

podcasts or radio stations based on the

things you care about. It makes um

content from your emails, your calendar,

your interests, and pretty much just any

query that you type in.

I've been using it for the last several

days, and I've been pretty impressed. I

feel like it's doing things on like a

number of different levels. It's one

thing to get like the voice and cadence

right. It's another to like create a

nice program of your day.

Morning Alice. Sliding in just before

that Hu session kicks off. Looks like

today's paced but pretty focused.

Yeah, that backtoback access recording

block is coming up fast. We'll keep this

tight so you can get prepped without

scrambling.

Some major waves in AI to get to later.

Think huge chip deals and a big push on

new developer tools. Also, music charts

are shaking up again. if you need a

breather from the tech headlines.

But I feel like for most people, this is

actually going to be their first

experience with like aentic AI like

searching for things for them. You know

what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's that's totally

right. And I think um we were joking

about this the other day where we were

like, you know, the funny part about

building something that works really

well and is really interesting and is

magical for folks is that on the surface

it has to be so simple, right? like

where you don't have any cognitive load

about what the thing is. And for the

record, I don't think we're completely

there yet, but we try our best to make

it really simple. It's just like make a

podcast or a radio station about

anything. But underneath it, it is very

technically complex to create a low to

no latency audio platform about

anything. And the promise is that you

know you care about all these things um

but maybe you care to listen to the

topic to something about the topic

multiple times a day right so it's like

how do you at multiple times of the day

tell the user hey something has changed

like let's say like open AI right you

could go days where there's like not

that much interesting news about them

but then one day there's like a very

interesting news story whether it's like

Sora coming out or dev day happening

right and suddenly there's a bunch of

things you might want to listen to so I

I think being able to enable this kind

of like I know this person is interested

in open AI. I'm going to try to make

sure I understand what do they know so

far. How do I give them the most recent

thing? How do I make it so that that

content is actually personalized to

their context? Like that stuff is pretty

hard and there's like a lot of

complexity under the hood that goes into

it. But I think that when you get it

right, it's pretty magical. where um I

was creating um a podcast about the

Mariners, which is like really funny

because I'm not super into sports, but

I'm like really into the Mariners. And

it somehow knows this about me. So, it

was just like going through like the

different sort of like results of like,

okay, here's like what happened with the

game, here's like the record, okay, but

let me explain why this is important.

And it was pretty cool. I was like, oh,

it's not like your typical sports

broadcast.

There's something about radio. I feel

like I saw an infographic the other day

that was looking at like the time spent

for audio per day and like a solid third

of it is still like AMFM radio and I

think in this moment where everybody is

constantly pulling things on demand like

it's pretty damn nice to have someone

just like read to you. like I'm signed

up to the LA NPR uh KCRW and it's just

like here's five news stories from today

and I'm like wait not a million that I

have to feel guilty about not reading

but just five please. I I think that's

the that's the interesting part of like

what like this moment we're in which is

I think about this all the time where

we've never had this choice before right

where I'm like hey dev day let's just

take dev day I really care about what

happened there I do not want to listen

to an hour and a half keynote right it's

like maybe I would on a different day

but today I need the 5minute rundown but

then maybe there's a different topic

that I actually care a lot about which

is like I want to about like the history

of Star Trek like how like what was Gene

Rodenberry thinking like I have actually

I have no idea right so maybe I want to

listen to like a 40minute thing about

that but I think like the flexibility of

a couple of different things which is

like how long I want to listen for what

the specific topics are what the angle

even is how is this even relevant to me

like I think those are the things that

are possible today with AI that was like

not really scalable or possible in like

the preAI times and so I I think like

there's like this very interesting

question of one, do people care, right?

Is this actually like an interesting

problem? And I think the second question

of like what are the correct knobs to

give to people? Because it's like you

don't want to build a thing that has

like a thousand buttons, right? And

someone's always fiddling it. I think

you could probably land on this like

middle path where it's like it's just

magical for 95% of people and the 5%

that want to fiddle like we have the

correct controls.

I really appreciated how simple the

interface was. I'm still getting my head

around the idea of AI podcast, AI radio.

I think because I'm such a podcast power

user, and I'm drowning in human created

podcast that I need to listen to. It

feels like listening to an AI podcast

feels just strange to me. But I will say

the the daily overview thing was Dev Day

was a perfect example. We're recording

this the day after the open dev day and

I was I I was there and like I had a

packed calendar. It was unusual for me

and I was traveling that day and I had

like I was doing a day trip up from LA

and I was thinking of you actually in

this conversation a lot at Dev Day

because uh I went to this Q&A with um

with Sam Alman after the keynote and he

was talking about how he thinks that AI

uh will be primarily used through voice

and he's like so into voice as the main

input for AI and I think that probably

has to do with the devices he's working

on with Johnny IV and obviously CHBT has

advanced voice mode and all that but It

does feel like voice is a really unique

way and powerful way to interact with

this stuff.

I agree. I think that um that's the next

horizon for us. And I actually think

that the initial step is um I think that

it's easy for people who have this kind

of like internal monologue to make the

leap, right? Like if you already have an

internal monologue, I think it's easy

for you to imagine that you could have

like an AI voice assistant. like you

watch the movie Her and you're like,

"For sure, right? I get it." But then I

think for most people um the movie Her

is just a movie. It's just an

interesting sci-fi thing because I think

a lot of people don't think about the

world as this like interactive interface

for technology, right? Like it's super

nerdy. I think most people just live

life and that's it. And I think that the

key to this is is actually passive

content that you make interactive. And I

think that's the bet we're making with

Hux, which is how can I give the user so

much value with like nothing like they

don't have to do anything, right? And so

like when you use Hux, like you open the

app and you just press play, right? You

don't have to ask a question. You don't

have to start a chat. You don't even

have to say here's how I'm feeling

today. Um, and as much as possible, we

try to constrain the amount of things

that there are to press on the screen at

any given time for this reason because I

think that this is like the next page of

AI or technology in general, which is

like don't make it hard for the user to

get something useful out of it. Um, and

I think if you lay that foundation down

really really well, um, you you unlock

the next step, which is you you delight

them with interactivity, right? and you

sort of teach the user that like, hey,

you know what? The world can be this

like interactive like technological

interface where you're listening to

something interesting. Maybe you have a

question, right? We can't do that today.

We can't interrupt podcasts today. We

can't interrupt radio stations, but what

if you could, right? And maybe it

actually says something like, "Hey,

Ellis, this is very interesting for you,

like this specific thing." And you're

like, "Why, you know, why would it say

that?" So, I think like there's like an

opportunity to build passive content

that invites the user to participate in

this like totally novel next generation

behavior.

As a professional podcaster for a long

time, I would have loved to have been

able to go back and interrupt myself

listening back to myself and be like,

"Stop saying um stop stop doing filler

words." I'd love to go back and redo my

pods. If you can invent that, I'll pay

you a lot of money.

I mean, an um remover is pretty easy.

A lot of people in tech talk about like

what is the thorough putut of the

different modalities

and you're like what are you talking

about and then they're like well what's

the IO potential of visual versus video

versus audio and it's like dude like

it's not about that it's just about the

time spent

like parts of your day like and that's I

think why you're seeing I mean what what

is it like 3 to four hours per day of

audio time spent like up there with

video time spent I feel like uh for that

same reason and it's not that it's like

oh the death of reading or this or that

I mean it's just looking at the

opportunities and creating experiences

for them.

Yeah. I mean I think largely um you know

when we started this particular

incarnation of the app one of the things

I was I was talking to the team about is

like it's kind of crazy that when you

build anything you have to compete for

the user's eyeballs. It's like it's like

a weird business to be in, right? I am

trying to steal your attention from

something else that you are doing. And

audio is really special in the sense

that you can participate in it when you

are doing something else. Maybe you're

taking a walk, maybe you're riding your

bike, maybe you're working out, maybe

you're doing your chores. And actually

like a lot of our users, they whenever

they send us feedback, they tell us the

thing they're doing. And it's like this

really magical organic thing where

someone will be like, "I was walking my

dog when Hu did this or I was driving to

work when Hux did this." It's like kind

of cute where I'm like we're just

people. We're just people doing stuff.

And if we we sort of think about this is

like, hey, what's your place in a

person's life? And it's like, how can

you make that place really good? Like

that that's like our singular motivation

is like, hey, if you listen to it for

like 15 minutes during your commute, how

do you make it like a pretty good 15

minutes where you were like, wow, I'm

glad that I did that. And um I think

that's why this particular race or this

particular game of like audio is

actually like a really meaningful one

where you're like how creating

meaningful and interesting audio content

is not that easy.

No, but it's like a pretty it's a pretty

special place. Yeah. If you if you

unlock it, if you unlock it, it's pretty

good. And I and I think about this like

I listen to podcasts a lot. I listen to

music a lot. I listen to hucks a lot.

And I I feel good every time I do these

things. I feel pretty good.

It seems like in some ways, while we

might talk about it as radio or podcasts

or whatnot, it seems like you're kind of

going to be at the center of this like

holy grail moment of AI that pulls

things for you and gives them to you

whether it's audio or a feed.

And I you tweeted the other day that

OpenAI's new pulse feature has some

striking similarities to Hu. C can you

tell us about that? feel like they they

cloned your old website as opposed to

your new website. But uh

yeah. Yeah, it it was interesting I

think because you know when I first saw

it I saw the video first and I was like

oh my gosh. I was like it's like the old

website but then I kept poking around

and I was like some things were really

similar like the framing of um you know

it's all about you versus like it's all

it's all you. I was like okay it's like

super close. We looked at sort of like,

you know, no scrolling, listen and and

it's kind of like personalized feed

instead, proactive versus like doom

scrolling. There was just like multiple

things that made me think, okay, right?

If it was like one design element, like

that's that's okay. That's cool. But I

think because it was so close, I kind of

felt like, well, you know, it's tough,

right? Like I don't work at Google

anymore. like I'm the little guy and

Open AI is this behemoth

um who is basically taking like our same

message and they're saying this is the

future. So on one hand I was like really

jazzed. I was like wow this is like

really cool like we launched it before

they did and they said the same thing

and it seems like many people are

excited about it. So in general it's

like very cool validation for the space

and the direction we're in. On the other

hand it's super scary. It's like, oh

man, like do I really want to take them

on? Um, but I think in practical terms,

this happened all the time when we were

working on Notebook LM2. I think in

practical terms, I think you see a lot

of this in emerging products and product

ideas and product paradigms, which is

like maybe you don't do it on purpose,

right? Like you don't literally look at

a website and you like copy it. Maybe

you don't. Um, but maybe you're

influenced by it down the road, right?

And it comes out in your writing. it

comes out in your design and then it it

starts to look really similar because

everybody is kind of like trying to find

inspiration for something that doesn't

exist. Um, what I think is true though

is that what differentiates products is

basically how long you go at the problem

for and how differentiated your insights

are. And I think that's like kind of a

weird thing to say, but I said it all

the time when we were raw notebook,

which is like these things will happen

where people will crop up. They will do

the same thing you were doing. But the

thing that you have to remember is that

even though it's interesting to look at

what they are doing, it's what you are

doing that actually makes the

difference, right? Like for your life,

for your customer's lives. And the truth

is that you just have to you just have

to keep going. You have to keep going at

it. I mean, I think um

even in the two weeks since we've

launched, I think we've learned so much

about what users want and what the user

experience is that I'm just like, wow.

like that makes me feel good about the

direction we're going in and I don't

particularly feel the need to stop just

because, you know, we might be doing

something similar to Open AI.

I asked uh Sam Alman at the Devday Q&A

yesterday about Pulse and he said it was

his favorite feature. Uh, and uh, for

those who don't know, it's gated right

now to the 200 a month pro tier of

CHAGPT, but it's the first time that

Chat GPT will use your context to

suggest things to you and push things to

you like like Hux, like like more of an

assistant. Uh, and I think they see it

as a huge opportunity to make chat GPT

less um, insurmountable, less

overwhelming to people who don't know

how to prompt it, right? Because that's

the thing with AI right now is to really

take advantage of it. You have to know

how to extract from it. But there's

something magical when it can just bring

things to you and learn from you. And I

think that's like what you're doing with

Hux. And Open AI seemed very very

excited in that direction. So uh it's

it's it's really interesting and um you

can you can monetize it in a lot of

interesting ways. Like I'm curious like

how you think about that. Is it for a

product like this? Do you just do

subscriptions or do you think that at a

certain scale there's an opportunity to

do like really good hightouch

advertising in an interface like this?

Um I think that's probably what OpenAI

will do actually for Pulse is kind of

what they were hinting. So I'd be

curious to hear how you feel about that.

I mean I think we're really really early

still. Um but I'll tell you like my

early thoughts on it which is I think

that in order to keep most products free

like you'll have to do advertising. I

think that's just kind of how these

types of products work. But, you know,

the stage we're in is we're just trying

to validate, is this interesting to

people? Do they want this? Is it useful?

And I think when we get to the the part

about monetization, I think those are

the only two avenues, which is like you

could do a subscription, you could do

ads, you could do both. But the way I

think about ads is if you have a system

that actually knows you uniquely well,

um I think you could solve a really

important problem for both advertisers

and people, which is I don't really want

ads for things that I don't want to buy.

And I know that advertisers don't want

to spend their money showing ads to

people who aren't going to do anything

about it either. Uh, and I think about

th this sort of like two-sided problem

where it's like, okay, look, let's say

you're you're like blue bottle and you

want to advertise, right? I think it's

not terribly difficult with how Hux has

been built to just know like, okay, this

person's going to be in Palo Alto. They

have a meeting on University A, right?

This person drinks a lot of cold brew

cuz I see their receipts all the time.

It's not crazy to be like, Rya, you have

a meeting, blah, blah, blah. Here's an

ad, right? and just like disclose it to

the user and just say like it's an ad.

Blue bottles right there. They have cold

brew. They have like a single origin

blend. They have a multi- origin blend.

It costs this much, but here's a 25%

coupon.

And here's the bathroom code.

And here's the bathroom code,

which we pulled from Yelp.

So, I think I think there's something

there's something interesting to be

done. I think we're kind of far away

from doing it. Uh, but yeah, I mean,

lots of things to think about there.

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How soon is the quality of the voice

going to be indistinguishable from

humans? You think?

I mean, I think you see these like

studies that come out and they're like,

"Oh, voice AI is not distinguishable

from humans, right? Most people can't

tell already." And so I see those

studies and I think about it and I'm

like, well, I wonder what those contexts

are, you know, whether it's like

customer support or maybe when you make

reservations, right, and you call for

things like that. Um, but I think when

you're producing long format content, I

think that there's like an interesting

thing that happens, which is you can

probably tell it's not a human, but the

quality is good enough where it probably

doesn't bother you anymore. So, I think

it's probably not so much that, you

know, you can't tell it's a person

versus not a person, but I think it

comes down to like is it tolerable

enough for this particular media that

you're consuming. Um, and that's really

what what we measure, which is like a

lot of people are put off by AI voices

because it's like really weird. It's

like still very like dystopian to think

about there's like things pretending to

be people. But I try to think about it

from a perspective of like human voices

have a particular quality to it where we

can listen to them. Right? Like it like

mentally we're just like yeah I listen

to whatever this person is saying and

I'm okay with it. Whereas like my kids

call them clankers, right? They're like

I'm not listening. They actually say

this all the time. They're like I'm not

listening to a clanker. I'm like whoa

that's super funny.

It's like, how how do we get to a

no clankers in this household?

My kids joke about it all the time.

They're like, "Mom, do you think like in

10 years I'm going to be like

introducing you to my clanker boyfriend

and you're going to be like, "Oh, Zoe,

why'd you date a Clanker?" You know? Um,

but I think I think that's the question,

which is like, are AI voices good enough

to be listened to?

Yeah. I mean, none of the AI voices are

going to be as good as the uh 931 Jack

FM voice here in Los Angeles. Have you

heard this guy?

No.

No.

He's incredible. He's like, "We play

what we want." Jack FM.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Highly recommend.

We We've been dancing around this Risa,

but uh behind all this is the fear I

have that you're going to put us out of

a job, Ellis and I. And so I'd like to

know your advice for human podcasters,

measly human podcasters in this moment

because it is kind of crazy when you see

how things are progressing and it's like

well if someone can just get a

hyperpersonalized podcast on any topic

it's like

where do I fit into that?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean I think

this is like a serious question and it's

a serious question that I asked when we

worked on Notebook LM. And I'll say that

like my my perspective on this hasn't

changed too much. Like it's it's changed

a little bit. But with Notebook, one of

the things we discovered is that people

weren't trying to replace existing

content, right? They were just creating

content that didn't exist. And it was

really kind of funny to be like people

were creating podcasts out of their

resumes or they were creating podcasts

out of like you know personally I got

this like hund slide deck from like the

workspace folks when I was at Google and

I was like there's just no way I'm going

to read the thing right there just like

no chance right and there's no way that

Ellis and Alex are going to make a

podcast about this hundreds slide

workspace deck but now I had the ability

to turn it into one. Um, and so I think

like largely that is still true, people

want content that just doesn't exist and

is not feasibly going to be made. Um,

but I think one thing that is true that

has changed, you know, since since we

launched Notebook LM is I think it's

kind of like the eyeballs um,

perspective, which is you are just

competing for a limited amount of space

in a user's day. And I think that's very

real. And we think about hawks as like

something you add to your routine versus

something that displaces something in

your routine, but that's like overly

optimistic, like you know, of course

it's like replacing something,

especially if you're already like a

listener. Um, and so we actually ask

people all the time, we're like, what

did you replace with Hux? Like what were

you doing? And I think for the most

part, many people actually don't say

that they were listening to something

else. And this to me is like very

interesting which indicates either we

are reaching a subset of people that

were not podcast listeners to begin with

or like music listeners. Um but I think

we'll probably see the results of this

change over time. And so my my sort of

TLDDR on here is that for the first time

I think we have technology that competes

with like the audio space. I think we're

going to discover how that changes.

Personally I still listen to the same

amount of like podcasts that I do. I

just listen to Hux is like a totally

different time.

All right, we're safe for now, Ellis.

Yeah, I feel like I mean this is kind of

my broader take on like AI's

intersection with news and whatnot. I

think it's like if you're like a link

blog or a link newsletter that

aggregates a very I don't know

predictable subset of tech news like

yeah I mean that's also just not that

differentiated or interesting even like

of a skill set you know meanwhile if you

are bringing in all elements of your

experience opinion expression even if

you're an artist like that's the thing

that AI really can't do and so I feel

like it's just pushing us in that

direction um we need to think about how

to help you uh self-actualize into the

most differentiated version of yourself,

Alex. I think that that's how we ensure

your future is safe.

Yeah, this is a this is going to be a an

important process we'll we'll we'll do

together on the show. Um what was a

product you tried lately that blew your

mind?

Oh, I really like Sora. I really like

the Sora and I was so surprised because

I'm not a video consumer number one.

Like I don't even use Tik Tok which is

embarrassing but uh I am also definitely

not a video creator but I was really

impressed with the novelty of the cameo

feature and the thing that was so

startling to me was that I wanted to see

myself in the videos which I have never

had any such desire to do.

Yeah,

but I I the very first one I made was me

in Arachus like in Dune with like a

sandworm and I was like that is so

goofy. It is so cool. Um, and it was

delightful and I probably used it for 24

hours and I didn't use it again. But I

think for the 24 hours that I did, it

was quite magical.

Risa, we really have enjoyed having this

convo with you and uh, we really

appreciate you coming on the show.

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. This

has been really fun. Thanks for asking

me about my favorite Star Trek captain.

To be continued, we'll do uh, we'll do

favorite species of aliens next round.

All right.

Species species A472 is my all-time

favorite. Kardashians for sure.

Well, that was a fun chat. And Alex, you

now have a personal podcast to listen to

as you scoop your dog's poop every day.

Uh, is that like literally the only free

time you have left that has been

unmonetized by some company?

Pretty much. That's my hu time.

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Gopalan. We will see you next week. Bye.

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