Chamath & Nathalie on Leaving California, Tech Investments & Their Marriage | KMP Ep.24

You went from being a large Democrat donor to now a very outspoken proponent on the other side of the aisle.

Yeah.

How did you get there yourself?

For me, it was an evolution where I was like, I can't believe I'm being lied to by this group of people whose sole responsibility is to hold truth to power that I mean red pill me I guess in a

way. At the end of last year, I had an

way. At the end of last year, I had an incredible thing happen. this business

that I helped start 10 years ago, right? Grock and you know, we sold it to

right? Grock and you know, we sold it to Nvidia, $20 billion, incredible validation, all of this success. Katie,

I felt super like down, like the entire internet was celebrating you and saying, "Chimoff must be having the best day of his life."

I have felt the happiest before something great has happened. And

then afterwards, I feel worse than before.

When you guys met, was he this outspoken about his viewpoints? When I met him, he was very opinionated. That was there for sure. That meant a lot to me because it

sure. That meant a lot to me because it showed me what it meant to be fearless in the market of ideas. Instead, I've

always wanted to be more measured.

That's why I always win the arguments.

Hi everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the Katie Miller podcast.

We're so excited to be in Palo Alto today joined by Chimath and his beautiful wife Natalie. Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you.

Thanks Katie.

So we're sitting here in Palo Alto. You

have been incredibly outspoken in recent days about all of the wealth moving out of California. Your home is beautiful.

of California. Your home is beautiful.

Thank you. Do you think that you guys would also too leave California if the billionaire tax passed?

I think that is our uh big fear. It's

sort of the nightmare. We're kind of going through the phases of denial, uh acceptance, grief, however you call it.

But I mean, right now, we're committed to staying and trying to show people why this is a really terrible idea.

You went from being a large Democrat donor to now a very outspoken proponent on the other side of the aisle.

Yeah.

When you are so influential to other VCs and other people with high net worth here in California and you really shaped their public opinion and public perception.

How did you get there yourself? Was

there a moment you woke up and you're like, "Okay, it's all different." There

was um this is not about politics for me.

It's about the truth. Um there was a moment where I was basically like everybody else and pretty brainwashed.

My media diet was very much the same as everybody else's. Uh I read the New York

everybody else's. Uh I read the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. I

watched a little bit of CNN, a little bit of CNBC, a little bit of MSNBC, a little bit of CBS.

economist every now and then you encounter it on a plane and you think you know what's going on and I had a perception of Donald Trump initially

from the moment he walked down the staircase in Trump Tower to announce and then over the course of seven six or seven years I realized that some of

those fundamental things that I was told about him were just totally false and there was enough content online where I was almost afraid afraid. But it

started with Charlottesville.

I was almost afraid to look at it because I'm like, I think I was lied to.

And then I saw it. I saw what he said, but then I saw the portrayal. I had

originally believed that portrayal until I saw the truth. And then I just started to go down that rabbit hole. So for me, it was an evolution where I was like, I can't believe I'm being lied to by this

group of people whose sole responsibility is to hold truth to power. The key word there is truth to

power. The key word there is truth to power, not your perception or your desires. And I just think that that um

desires. And I just think that that um that I mean redpilled me, I guess, in a way.

When you guys met, was he this outspoken about his viewpoints? Because I think most people don't know that you're an accomplished businesswoman, Natalie, amongst yourself, and that you've done a lot in your career prior to the two of

you meeting.

Sure. I have um I I love my job. I love

working, but I still think there's much more to accomplish. So, I would uh tone down the the adjective, but thank you.

When I met him, he was very opinionated.

That was there for sure. Sometimes um I think it's a question of of instinct.

Some people just instinctively go. And

what he taught me was the capability of iteration, iteration. When I met him, my

iteration, iteration. When I met him, my views were softer. Uh well they still are. I try always to keep optionality to

are. I try always to keep optionality to be wrong to weigh probabilities to weigh out the risks. He had no idea of what risk meant. And um and that meant a lot

risk meant. And um and that meant a lot to me because it showed me what it meant to be fearless in the market of ideas.

And in this way um I've noticed this journey. I've noticed him change. I've

journey. I've noticed him change. I've

noticed him integrate a lot more of the things that were important for me like measurement, judgment, uh but he uh he

he factored them in with experience instead of starting off from the the the idea of of wanting to be right instead.

I've always wanted to be more measured.

That's why I always win the arguments.

How did you guys meet?

This is an incredible story.

There was a period in my life where I had a pretty traditional investment business and you I was I I had a pretty talented

career but there was a moment where I felt like something was missing and there was a person that I hired to work for me whose whole goal was to scale the business

and you know the way that he perceived it was create a patina and uh it was Bill Clinton's son-in-law

uh and he was a very good person and you know tried to do a lot with us has gone on to be very successful at a different firm but he's the one that connected us

and he said you know these guys are a great family they're based in Italy uh and she's going to be here the CEO of the holding company and I was like well

what time and he's like9 a.m. And I was like, "Yeah, that's too early for me."

And then he's like, "No, but listen, this is a pharma business and they're incredibly important." I think he said,

incredibly important." I think he said, "At a certain point, Mark and I were friends and he definitely overplayed the situation." He was like, "Oh, she's a

situation." He was like, "Oh, she's a very important pharma in Europe, you know, multiplied by 10." And Shimath was like, "Still no." And then at the end of the day, he was like, "Look," he was so exasperated. He's like,

"She's she's really hot.

She's super hot." And so she he he showed me he showed him a picture of me and and Chamath looked at the picture and said, "Not my dad."

So So we did not meet. So we did not meet.

We didn't meet.

No, because of Katie. It was really early in the morning. It was 9:00 a.m.

And it's like nobody in California, you know, you you work up till 2. You've

seen this.

I agree. The work culture in Palo Alto is significantly different.

2 3 4 a.m. in the morning.

Fair.

The before and after. Uh I now wake him up at 5:00 a.m. cuz I work with a European business. And so I want to

European business. And so I want to start my days early. I have to start my days early. So those times are long past

days early. So those times are long past behind us and it's it's just charming.

But anyways, that's not how we met.

That's how we did not meet.

That's not But then that night, we were both at the same restaurant. We struck

up a conversation. She came to the office the next day and I had an all glass office in Palo Alto. Every room

was all glass.

And I remember her saying, "I need to leave to fly back to Italy, but can we just talk for a few minutes about some of these things that that I've just learned about sitting here with you guys?" And I walked in behind her into

guys?" And I walked in behind her into an all glass room and couldn't close the door. I just like looked at her and I

door. I just like looked at her and I was like and I kind of like lost myself very became very nervous like a child. I

just kind of sat there like nervous like a and and she's like this is really weird.

He's like acting nervous and the door isn't closed.

But that's that was the moment. I didn't

realize it at the time, but very subconsciously I think that that's what I So what he's missing from the narrative is that from that moment also nothing happened for like nine more months in

which he also set me up with other people. Like when I say nothing

people. Like when I say nothing happened, it's not that you know that moment gets deep into you and something really motivational shifts. No. Uh and then we

motivational shifts. No. Uh and then we became friends and then we talked about everything possible and life continued and then many many many many months

later um I realized well actually we had lunch together in a place and suddenly he leaves me in the middle of lunch and says sorry I need to go by and this was

also sudden and so I was preoccupied now we're talking like I've been knowing him at that point for like six nine months I can't remember so significant amount of time I'm like what's going I just got up. We We were

at the Doororkchester or something, Berkeley. At the Berkeley Hotel having

Berkeley. At the Berkeley Hotel having lunch and in the middle of lunch, I literally got up and I'm like, "I'm feeling sick. I must go. Goodbye." And I

feeling sick. I must go. Goodbye." And I just walked out and I went to my room.

So, I texted him later and and I said, "Are you okay?" And he said, "Well, I really felt like I was sick. I just

needed to vomit." And I'm like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Do you have a bug?" And he's

so sorry. Do you have a bug?" And he's like, "No, it's like I realized I think I like you."

It was like high school. That was really like high school.

And I was like, "It's a terrible idea. I

don't think that's accurate." And and we moved on and another month passed.

And then you guys, how long was it from that point did you end up having kids together?

Oh my god. Well, then like a month later, we started dating and then honestly like within 10 months when when we kissed for the first time,

I think after a few months then we kissed. It's not clear how that happened

kissed. It's not clear how that happened because the the idea was like this is um and and then I moved to California uh for business reasons and seven days

later I got pregnant.

That was and that's the nine years ago, eight and a half years ago.

Well, yes. And one of not really thinking about things twice and then ending up to be lucky.

Yeah.

Ended up working out beautifully because now you're married and have a house of five children. It's incredible because,

five children. It's incredible because, you know, I was coming off of a divorce.

So, it was, you know, I I had like zero self-confidence and self-esteem at that point and I also didn't know like how to be in a relationship cuz clearly the first time didn't work. Um, and so I've

learned a lot from her. Uh, it took a long time because I, you know, you're just, nobody's trained. There's no

there's no playbook that says here's how to be in a relationship. And then here in Silicon Valley, it was all kind of platitudes, you know, like what it means to be in a

couple that works and like, you know, it just it was all BS. Um, so I I've I've learned a lot actually how to do it.

It's been a negotiation for sure.

Have you brought in lessons from your last marriage into this one that you could help tell other people who are either going through a divorce or who are trying to do this again about how to make a successful marriage and

relationship the second time?

Well, I mean, I think what I learned from that is there is uh an incredible amount that can go unsaid that must never go unsaid. And it's like you just

got to put it all out there and talk about it. And look, I grew up in an

about it. And look, I grew up in an Asian household, right? And so these are stoic people. They don't say anything.

stoic people. They don't say anything.

They just internalize everything and the anger and the resentment builds. This

one over here, well, me instead, she's like, I don't have she'll throw [ __ ] like I mean, she's not afraid.

Some people have warehouse where to store uh resentment. I don't have that warehouse. It's just missing. So I give

warehouse. It's just missing. So I give it back on the table. And this is very uh I think it's very useful if you have to deal with somebody as special as

Chamach is truly truly special. He's got

a very very big heart, but he's sometimes unaware. He is not uh very

sometimes unaware. He is not uh very very say what you really want to say.

He's dumb as hell. No, I'm kidding.

This is like the constant thing. She's

like, "You're so incredible." She always says, "You're such a genius, but you're an idiot."

an idiot." No he What's the dumbest thing he's ever done?

Oh gosh. Are you serious? Let's just

Let's go.

Oh god. I would have to think about it because I there because it's so many.

Like you mean today or in the last week? I would have to focus on like a narrow window. Um hold

on. What's the last super dumb thing that you did? You did like What was the last time we had a huge fight?

Yeah.

I don't know. We we used to have these like we used to have like so I didn't know how to fight. I don't know if you know how to fight but like you do know how to fight.

I do.

It's a really important thing to know how to do with your spouse except my husband and I will say this and like I know he'll get mad when I divulge this cuz he doesn't like when I divulge our personal life on air but I make other people do it.

But no, when we fight he typically goes quiet which is not the interpretation that he would give off publicly is that he does not fight back.

Yeah. He just goes like he's very respectful and quiet and that makes me more mad and more upset and I think we're very similar and that I don't have that.

I just came up with two things.

Okay, great. Let's go.

So, as you were talking you inspired two things. One is a playful thing. So, when

things. One is a playful thing. So, when

Chimat has nothing to do like the classic weekend, his mind is fixated on how do I get her to snap? Um, so he organizes

traps like organize. He starts one day and this can be a long con. The the

whole purpose is to get me to snap and to call him by his birth name Chimath versus how I normally call him. I call

him Amore.

Uh when she calls me by my name, it's like when you call your kids by their name, they know they know their you know they know business. This is what I live for on the weekends if nothing's going on. And so

on. And so how long does it take for her to call me by my name? And so he just wants to what are her trigger points and he will start saying things that he doesn't even really want. Like let's say we've been

really want. Like let's say we've been out for a whole week, we've been traveling. We've been working uh late

traveling. We've been working uh late and we've been out. I don't like to eat out too many times during the week. It

doesn't make me feel good. I feel I lose a little bit of uh control over my calorie intake or sugar intake, whatever. And uh he knows that for me

whatever. And uh he knows that for me it's a sensitive spot. And so, um, I'll make a dinner reservation. No, no,

no. He'll say even even worse, even worse. Like, oh, you've heard about this

worse. Like, oh, you've heard about this incredible restaurant. Well, it really

incredible restaurant. Well, it really nice to go with our friends unless unless you feel like I mean, you don't

have to say yes. Uh, if if you have psychological problems, uh, but otherwise, it would be really nice. And

it's like what? And this is like the fifth time. and he will like say small

fifth time. and he will like say small things like uh actually I've heard this menu. have you ever heard about this

menu. have you ever heard about this place? And we'll say three, four times.

place? And we'll say three, four times.

Then he will invite other people on the con and and like hey uh Mark or whatever, come home. And then can you name this restaurant a couple of times, please? Until she gets the message. And

please? Until she gets the message. And

so until I finally say, look, I've been here. I've been doing everything you

here. I've been doing everything you wanted all week. We've been to four restaurants already. Now, can we avoid

restaurants already. Now, can we avoid this fifth? And

this fifth? And and then I start laughing.

But when we fight seriously, he goes into silent mode, which I take as punishment because and he doesn't need to do anything because I self-punish very well. Um, and he will then call me

very well. Um, and he will then call me uh things like you're so estrionic. Like

it doesn't the idea is not to say something which is really bad. It's to

say something that is so subtle that will haunt me for the rest of my days even though he never thought it.

Totally. I totally appreciate this. We

fight very similarly. where finally I'll get so triggered that I will lose it and then the other person just sits there quietly and it was like no you're the one that's you know by the way can I can I tell you where it comes from for me where

like I you know just growing up the way that I grew up didn't really have a lot of friends parents fought a lot I was always very afraid of I don't want to be rejected by Nat and so I would just never

so even in a real fight like when we're not playing playing around I get very quiet because I do get into this mode of like what if she leaves and I and I get really And then we kind of like sort it out.

But it takes a while and she has to lead. If she didn't lead, we wouldn't

lead. If she didn't lead, we wouldn't have resolved anything.

Normally what happens in our fights is that he gets a little insecure by something. Could be anything. Could be

something. Could be anything. Could be

an email, could be a tweet, could be um a piece of news, anything really. And

then he's he feels smaller. And so he wants to make me feel smaller and he makes me feel smaller. And because I'm have different kinds of insecurities, uh

I don't think I'm structurally insecure at all, but I will feel small. And in

those moments, I feel a little insecure for five, six minutes, and then I think, why did he do this to me? And so I snap back and I get mad at him. And then I

always have the responsibility to deescalate my getting furious and understand that he's the one who's really hurt and try to unpack that with him. So I'm like, "Okay, sit down."

him. So I'm like, "Okay, sit down."

Okay. What happened? Tell me everything from the beginning.

Sounds like a very healthy marriage though. I will give I will say that is

though. I will give I will say that is like it's a very healthy conversation to have.

I'll tell you I'll tell you. She she has she has to do this a lot for me which I think is like it's a gift. Um at the end of last year I had an incredible thing happen. This business that I helped

happen. This business that I helped start 10 years ago Grock and you know we sold it to Nvidia $20 billion. Incredible validation. all

$20 billion. Incredible validation. all

of this success. Katie, I felt super like down and she could feel it. So, she

could feel it and her father felt it on the phone.

And her father says to her, "He just seems like he's a little down."

And I was trying to figure out like what is going on. And I'm like I'm like I said to N, I think I'm depressed. And

she's like this. Okay. Why are you depressed? I don't know. you know, I

depressed? I don't know. you know, I think about all the things that didn't go right and then, you know, and she and then she kind of like helps me navigate it to a much simpler explanation, which

is like, you know, there's just a lot of other stuff going on and we're really in the middle of a bunch of important things that you've invested your whole life in doing and it just doesn't feel

like you've gotten to the end of it, but you've made a lot of progress if you actually look back. And she's like, you got to just take the win here, buddy.

like the entire internet was celebrating you and saying Chimoth must be having the best day of his life. He sold Brock.

He's made so much money off this initial investment.

I felt like this. Isn't that crazy?

It is. I think for how many people who are out here who are trying to get into venture or investing and who only hit to hit it as big as one time as you did.

Could they ever be so lucky?

Yeah.

I mean, it's so fascinating to see the flip side of that. It's like every like it's it's weird like I have felt the happiest before something great has happened before the Facebook IPO be you know

before the Warriors won a championship all these things that I've been lucky to be involved in before the Slack IPO and then afterwards I feel worse than before

and now I think she's kind of Nat's been helping me kind of shape I think that the story is a little larger and there is the

of the single shot that people can see or assume or there's the one story but then Chimath has had um very wide range

of stories. So while something is more

of stories. So while something is more in the face of other people, there's just a lot of other stories in the background and those other stories might

be less successful or less easy or um and in even the stories that become successful, what did it take to get there and what is the backside story? So

I I think that he said it once and it became a meme, but it it's actually a good accurate way of depicting it, which is when you're in the arena trying things. Like I am in the arena trying

things. Like I am in the arena trying things and he is. So there is no space to just like wrap the whole package and and say, "Okay, this is this is a judgment. This is the end." because

judgment. This is the end." because

you're in the middle and there's like five of things that are broken and there's five things that need to fix need to be fixed and there's so yes if one things goes it's really important to

make sure that we can focus on that and make sure that that's celebrated but that takes nothing away from all the things that instead need attention and

need his constant energy and modality and modality is an important one because he needs to be um um really with his head down

just in the engineering in the in the machine room. Um really focused and

machine room. Um really focused and sometimes all of the world of of X and and and Instagram the world outside

sometimes gives you a sensation of being high or being low for whatever reason and this is what Chamat and I try to work a lot to be shielded from because it doesn't change the everyday. How do

you handle, you know, you are so public, you make a lot of public comments on X.

How do you handle the I would say legacy media news machine that comes from that?

How does that affect you? Do you guys read it? Does it I'm sure you're reading

read it? Does it I'm sure you're reading the negativity. We all see it, but it's

the negativity. We all see it, but it's how do you handle it when it comes your way? And how does it affect you?

way? And how does it affect you?

Um well, I'll take this cuz um Chamath is a star in this. he does not care.

Me on the other hand, not so good. Uh so

I actually look it up and I don't look it up because um because I want to be hurt or I want to hurt him, but because

I really trust sentiments and sometimes if you read a lot of negative comment, I want to understand where it's coming from and divide. Sometimes it's a lie.

Sometimes people have an idea which is based from something that is utterly untrue, 100% untrue. But truth doesn't come in black or white. It often comes in shades. And so I'm always seeking for

in shades. And so I'm always seeking for opportunities to improve. And sometimes

we talk about it and he's very definitive. I'm like, I don't want to

definitive. I'm like, I don't want to talk to you. This is completely wrong.

And then slowly slowly you can see that like a door is opening.

Do you ever tell him to delete a tweet?

Oh gosh.

Oh my god. The funniest thing. I'll tell

the story.

I'm pretty like I tweet what I want or I post what I want to post.

Sure.

I've been triggered very rarely.

Uh and then one time I got triggered by this person and he had been riding me. I

just couldn't and I couldn't get him off me. And then finally I basically called

me. And then finally I basically called him fat and stupid. Okay. I said,

"You're fat and you're stupid." That's

what I said to his reply. I said,

"You're an idiot. You're fat and you're stupid." Something like that. And it was

stupid." Something like that. And it was like 7:45 in the morning. And I know this because then I started my workout.

And I felt great. I'm like, "Yes, I put this idiot in his place. Let me go start working out." 7:46 my phone rings. And

working out." 7:46 my phone rings. And

she's like, "Take it down." And I'm like, "What?" She's like, I'm like,

like, "What?" She's like, I'm like, "You're monitoring my posts?" She's

like, "No, but something in the universe told me to check Twitter. I saw this thing. It's unnecessary. Take it down."

thing. It's unnecessary. Take it down."

And I'm like, "Oh, fine." So,

I'm sure I didn't say it worked out.

I'm sure I didn't say unnecessary, but yes, that was a ch I don't check his uh tweets. I don't and I don't look at it

tweets. I don't and I don't look at it often. Um, but sometimes, you know, when

often. Um, but sometimes, you know, when you I don't know, you wake up and you're like, hm. And I think I was in a

like, hm. And I think I was in a meeting, so I wouldn't normally use my phone to go somewhere else, but I had a feeling and and that's when I checked and it was not good.

Yeah.

What's the smallest investment you've made back or made for a company where you felt very personally invested that did well that actually gave you that sensation that we just talked about of feeling fulfillment and joy

comparatively to what I would consider Grock being a huge deal that's made you lots of money and is a giant success story and you not feeling that same comparison joy. I think that the tension

comparison joy. I think that the tension that I've always struggled with is the things that I do aren't always the things that I think I

should do. And

should do. And the latter is a bunch of high-minded ideas about how the world should just be better and more rational. The problem is

that doing those things are very difficult because the amount of money that it takes to do those things or the amount of regulatory change or the amount of other people support is so

large as to be basically for every other human being other than Elon. Impossible.

Okay. But what's the deal? So I did like a breast cancer thing where uh a third of all breast cancer surgeries or like lumpctomies

are ridden with an error which means that if you for every 10 three women have to get another lumpctomy because they leave cancer behind of those three another one and so we built a machine that uses a

type of imaging that is 10 to a thousand times better.

Oh wow.

We just got FDA approval.

It's like a very small thing.

makes me feel like really like I've done something.

Yeah. You've done something for the world.

Yeah. And it's technical. It's hard. It

took us three years. Um Yeah. Like I

like that kind of stuff. The the the company actually that the the basis of Starlink um is a company that Elon acquired called Swarm and it was a guy from Apple

and and his co-founder Sarah Spangelo.

We were the original capital in this thing, working out of our office, incubating these little satellites, sending them up in little planes out of Palo Alto to test them and then, you know, he scooped it up and

it just became a huge part of Starlink.

So to see that success for them. So

those kinds of things make me really happy.

Like you've changed the world.

It's like or I'm like a little part of it, you know, I'm a little part of this big story.

So I'm sure when someone sees you now, you're more recognizable than you used to be. Yeah. ever since the podcast.

to be. Yeah. ever since the podcast.

What is a successful pitch look like for somebody who comes up to you on the street? Not who gets a meeting, who's

street? Not who gets a meeting, who's sitting in your office and pitching you, but when you've said, "Okay, fine. You

can have my number." Um,

the the single biggest determinant of success is the agency of the person. And

the reason is that you just go through so many trials and tribulations. Um, I

remember like before Sarah and Ben sold Swarm to SpaceX, we got a cease and desist letter from the FCC. I mean, look, when you're a

the FCC. I mean, look, when you're a young 28-year-old founding team and not a lot of money in the bank and you get a cease and desist from the United States federal

government, you basically shut down and go home. But they didn't. And that's an

go home. But they didn't. And that's an internal decision. So the thing that I

internal decision. So the thing that I care about oftentimes what I ask people is tell me about how you grew up. Tell

me about your relationship with your parents. What did your parents do? What

parents. What did your parents do? What

are your siblings like? And all I'm trying to figure out is if there was hardship somewhere where you just had to decide, you know what, not me. I'm going

to make it. And that's the skill you apply to any market, that person is more likely to be successful than in the most obvious market. Um, that's the that's

obvious market. Um, that's the that's the successful pitch. It's just that sense of like this mfer is going to make they're just going to figure it out.

Being around those people is intoxicating.

You briefly dipped your toe in politics.

We all think Gavin Newsome is doing a terrible job mismanaging California.

I'll go two places on this because I'm interested in two different things.

Would you ever run for office? I know

you briefly discussed it. Would you ever consider being a politician's wife?

We'll start there.

I think that there is a point in our career where I would really like to explore it meaning 20 years from now, 30 years from now and to just completely

say take the collective wisdom we have and give it entirely back to the people now. It's not even feasible. It's just

now. It's not even feasible. It's just

completely unfeasible. Natt and I are like she's building a pharma business.

I'm building this new AI business. we

are just in the throws of it and we're in the throws of frankly raising our kids and I think like we enjoy it. Um so

I think the best thing that I can do is probably be influential.

You're both immigrants to this country.

What do you view the current push to deport all illegal aliens who are here in this country? Yeah.

Do you agree with it? Do you think it's gone too far? especially people who came here legally who saw how hard that is to do.

Yeah. I came here legally, not came here legally. Um I came on an H-1B. I think

legally. Um I came on an H-1B. I think

at a time when the H-1B is different than it is today. I don't I don't think there was nearly as much scale in abuse.

I think it's very important for people to follow the law. Um I think that there's a complexion of how you start and how you deal with these problems. And where you need to start is first you

got to get all like the actual hardcore criminals and then you have to clean up part frankly certain elements of the legal legal immigration system as well so that

you can reestablish trust and then I think in that you can find a way to deal with all the people that are in the gray but those to me would be the order of operations.

What do you think is the biggest issue facing the pharma industry in the United States today? I think we can uh I I

States today? I think we can uh I I would rather flip the question and say what's the biggest opportunity in the pharma industry. Um there has been

pharma industry. Um there has been incredible innovation 360 degrees round.

um and not the the sector hasn't necessarily picked it up and this is the first time that instead the regulatory agency is taking it seriously and it's

trying to course correct the the the trajec trajectory for when it relies to the the the clinical trials the information

how it's gathered and so on. uh it's

been long due and this is typical the industry changes and then eventually the regulatory agencies move along and the

biggest interesting challenge right now is to understand what is the massive change that is unraveling beneath this in the next two decades or three. So

what we've started seeing is how ma mathematics and digitalization can redefine the same information that we have today. And we can see that you can

have today. And we can see that you can boost it. It can be more rapid. It can

boost it. It can be more rapid. It can

be uh it can give faster responses to patients. But also what we are now

patients. But also what we are now really realizing is that the whole ideation to patient journey can be challenged. Which means that today uh

challenged. Which means that today uh you have animal models for example. uh

is there a future and where do you put that moment in time where those animal models are replaced by encilico models and when we talk about trials can you

understand the same things with fewer uh with fewer populations and more rapid results. If that happens, how can you

results. If that happens, how can you lower the barrier and let more participants in uh more people with good ideas and if that happens is there a moment and this is what a lot of people

are preaching but what what is not happening tomorrow or in five years from now slightly later on where exactly I don't know will this not matter because all these kinds of problems will be

solved and so what is the relationship between the pharma industry and the patient and so how will that be different. What is uh the new future

different. What is uh the new future pharma? Uh what will they be supplying

pharma? Uh what will they be supplying to help patients have a better quality of life? How will it be more designed

of life? How will it be more designed for their needs? Do you think they earned the boogeyman title that they're currently given by patients in the United States in terms of increased costs, not knowing

where the money's going, pushing medicines on us via advertising, you know, things that like say Bobby Kennedy is very passionate about versus that a

lot of the companies are understanding, you know, where the consumer is going and working to get there on their own. I

think you always have to look at different setups to really understand one thing. Sometimes when you're in one

one thing. Sometimes when you're in one thing you and that's the only thing that you're seeing. Um you have a narrative

you're seeing. Um you have a narrative and sometimes when you just take a step back and look at what hap what hap what happens in the rest of the world you

have a different narrative and it adapts to the perspective. So

in every industry there's parts that are dysfunctional and there's parts that need to be optimized and having people

that through data can train that model to be better has to be welcomed because in a world where we don't talk about these things and we don't have an

opportunity to improve them what happens that they stagnate and then the problem becomes 90% and overcomes the opportunity. That's what we don't want.

opportunity. That's what we don't want.

At the same time, um the industry, the regulatory landscape, the like nations evolve so that they can be adaptive and as long as uh there is that tension and

that tension can be held and there's competition, I think that the trajectory is positive.

Chimoth, you're a true rags to riches story. You went from working at Burger

story. You went from working at Burger King to the leading the instant messaging team at AOL to an early executive at Facebook to running your own venture capital firm.

Has money changed you?

Yeah, it has. Um,

I think that it's changed me mostly. Wow. I mean, obviously it has.

mostly. Wow. I mean, obviously it has.

Um, it's allowed me to be more free.

It's allowed me to say what I think. Um,

but it's also distracted me. I think in many moments it's made me not the person that I am. Uh, it's made me waste a bunch of time. It's made me way more insecure.

Uh, it's made me think of everything I didn't have. So, it's a mixed bag.

didn't have. So, it's a mixed bag.

What's something you each splurge on without guilt?

Well, I can tell you what I do. There is

an incred I mean, I don't even want to say it, but I'll say it because she deserves it. There's this woman, Olivia

deserves it. There's this woman, Olivia Landon. Uh, it's called Long Hill Wagyu

Landon. Uh, it's called Long Hill Wagyu outside of Austin. And, uh, I'm probably her largest and best customer. Um, and I buy it. I make it. I grill every Sunday

buy it. I make it. I grill every Sunday for the family. Um, it's probably our most favorite meal. Please say us.

Oh, yes.

Uh, it's not cheap because like the cost of I mean, all beef has gone up, right?

But man, it is excellent. Excellent. And

then the second one is wine. Those are

my two things.

She is wonderful. I mean wonderful and and honestly uh we I love uh Sundays because we get to do this together and it's the only time that Chimath provides

some health in the household. So it's

magic. It's pure and it's a um I I can't splurge on anything because I need to set the example because he would like to splurge on everything. And so I need to

counterbalance. And so um I uh try to

counterbalance. And so um I uh try to normalize that um um and bring some groundedness to the family

which is it seems extreme and it's like oh boring.

It's necessary. It's a necessary medicine.

What's the craziest thing you've ever spent money on?

Oh my god. I mean I shouldn't really say. I mean it's I think it's in

say. I mean it's I think it's in Wikipedia so I can just say it but you know I I had been obsessed with planes and then there was a moment where President Trump and Trump won 45 passed

the bonus depreciation in a moment where you know we had a success and and so I did it to take advantage of it and I rationalized every decision and she was like

I want to take my distance from this is the she's like this is the stupidest decision we're going to very sad I was very sad we're going to regret this. So, what was it?

I bought a Global 7500.

Okay.

It was so But and and and in my defense, it was during co so I got a good deal.

So, honestly, if you're going to say this, I'm going to say the rest.

No, no, no. But, but but like Yeah, say the rest. But like it was a disaster.

the rest. But like it was a disaster.

And it started it was the point at which everything stopped working.

I started making a whole series of horrible decisions. My ego got out of

horrible decisions. My ego got out of control. I was led by insecurity. I

control. I was led by insecurity. I

stopped thinking critically about investments the way that I used to.

Is this that SPAC timeline?

This was like a bunch of the spacks where you know and she was like what are you doing doing these biotech packs like you have no you know knowledge of these things. She's like why are we doing them

things. She's like why are we doing them and then she was like you know these things are wrong size. They're too big.

She was right about all of it.

I kind of marched forward anyways.

Um, but that was the biggest splurge, but it was a huge it it was a huge disaster. I don't find it funny. And I cried all my tears

it funny. And I cried all my tears trying to stop him. I felt responsible for the kind of face that you have in a

moment that you like are not capable of coming up with all the opportunities in the world to help the person who's in front of you. And then you have an albatross that put and that's the word I

used and remember us fighting hugely over the word word albatross.

Yeah. She's like that thing is an albatross and and it'll drag us down and then a very specific moment in time happened which the the market shift and I remember it specifically

March of 22 when uh Russia invaded Ukraine because uh the what it was called like the Silicon Valley bubble. it collapsed

and because he was so vocal he was the face of the collapse and um there was at that point there's there comes a moment in life and I think we all get through

those some of those moments um if you have the luck to to be in the arena for long enough every single thing goes under the microscope and what happens is that you realize that you made some good

decisions but you were not a genius because you also made some bad decisions the difference is that in moments where you have tailwinds, you don't really

feel it until you have headwinds and then it's all a disaster. And so

obviously we we by the way I'll tell you a great story about this process. She was like we need to confront this and we need we need you to find structural change. She's like

like me like how you approach your daily job. How do you keep your head down and

job. How do you keep your head down and be in the engine room? There would be Saturdays where we'd sit in bed and she would go to Reddit and she would read me

the negative feedback and it's it's brutal because my point is that sometimes he um says something and then it becomes a meme and you live in your own ecosystem of

positive feedback instead of hearing the negative.

Exactly.

But not even not even that. I think the point was more he says something that then has a negative impact on his life or our lives. And my point is like, are you saying it because you really think

about it and you you really want to say it or are you say it out of instinct and emotion and because you're feeling insecure? And I just wanted to divide

insecure? And I just wanted to divide those into two different categories.

What's the craziest thing you've ever seen somebody else spend money on more than him?

Yeah. I mean, I think the I think the biggest one was a friend of mine, really great guy. He bought an island and then

great guy. He bought an island and then you know, like everything is triple the price, right? So then like you have to

price, right? So then like you have to build the houses and the this and the that and it's like it was a disaster and then his business changed and it was hugely negative for him.

All right. Now we're going to play the best game ever called would you rather?

You both answer.

Would you rather at the same time or you can do the same time or one after the other? Dealer's choice.

the other? Dealer's choice.

Okay.

Would you rather have one extravagant date night in Paris or a quiet weekend at home with no phones?

Oh, this is we know there's seconds like B B. B.

100% B.

Would you rather be the smartest person in the room or the most self-aware?

B.

B.

B. I'm not trying to be self-aware here.

Okay, let's see.

She said it's a desire.

She said it's a desire. She said, "Would you like to?" That's a desire.

She's asking, "What do you want?"

Would you rather lead a movement or quietly mentor the person who does?

A I would love to have a but I know that this life will preserve for me like will give me an opportunity. The maximum I have close to that is a B and I'll take it happily.

Would you rather never fail again or never feel pressure again?

No. I I'm happy to fail and I love pressure.

I I think we have one life. Yeah, I

agree with that. Would you rather live in Lake Ko or Lake Tahoe?

Neither.

Oh my gosh. Neither. Yeah.

Neither. Not our vibe.

No.

They're both nice for different things.

Too beautiful, pretty, but the rhythm is not the rhythm. Like I know you well enough to understand that you and I have some similarities and one is the rhythm.

Mhm.

And I don't know if it happens to you, but when I my pace, like let's say it's the 15th of August and everybody in Italy shuts down or something like that happens, pace goes down. I get a little

sad. Does it happen to you too?

sad. Does it happen to you too?

No. I feel like I need to find something to go do.

Okay.

Like I can't I can't just have a quiet day. Like somehow I end up messing up. I

day. Like somehow I end up messing up. I

need to go find something to like say like f up or like you want the action.

I need to like when when pace goes down instead, I I genuinely feel a little depressed. So, I

don't like it. What's your daily routine?

Mine is we wake up depending on when Nat has calls with Europe between she'll wake up at 5:30, but normally we're up by 6:30. Kids run into bed, except on

by 6:30. Kids run into bed, except on Mondays where our four-year-old sleeps with us, and Thursdays, our six-year-old sleeps with us. The older kids do not sleep in the bed with us. Um,

16-year-old was a little tired.

Got a little dicey at 16. We uh we go downstairs at 7:00. We eat breakfast together as a family. We

What do you eat?

I have the same thing. Cottage cheese,

chia seeds, flax seeds, dragon fruit, and blueberries.

Oddly specific.

And then I have uh And then I have a latte. I have it every day. Same thing

latte. I have it every day. Same thing

every day.

Whole milk, raw milk, oat milk.

Whole milk. And then by 7:30, I mean, this is TMI, but I have certain biological things that I have to get done instantly as soon as I eat. And

then I brush my teeth and then uh I work out from 7:45 to 8:45 and then I shower and then I go to the office. That's me.

I have been working throughout all those.

She's been working this whole time.

She's been working since 5:30.

But she does No, but she does always make she always makes breakfast between meaning eats breakfast with us if if I can. She's in between meetings the whole time.

Do you guys eat dinner together as a family?

Always. Every day.

And do you guys are home to put the kids for bed or how does that work?

Um, it works that he uh is passive in in in the room and that's the time where I really try my best to teach them Italian and like read Italian books. Um,

oh, hold on a second. I'm just going to tell the story. I was like, "Oh, I'm going to read these Italian books." And

I thought, "God, this is me. Look at me.

I'm stepping up. What a great dad." And

then she's like the accent.

She's like amore stop. And I'm like why your [ __ ] accent that sucks. And so

what is the point you teaching and then this English accent? I was so hurt because I have invested eight nine years to learn this language that no that is shrinking in the number of people that

speak it. And so I don't and now I just

speak it. And so I don't and now I just sit there while she speaks Italian. The

kids speak perfect Italian and I speak this English accented Italian.

He's a very sad pants story. So don't

believe it. He knew Italian when I met Well, when I met him, he knew a little bit of French um from growing up in Canada. And so he switched to Italian

Canada. And so he switched to Italian marvelously well because he's very very very smart. But he didn't spend time

very smart. But he didn't spend time actually trying to learn Italian except one year. He did one year of like

one year. He did one year of like lessons to try to learn Italian. But

yeah, honestly, I don't want our kids to have an an Italian accent when they're speaking English. And I don't want them

speaking English. And I don't want them to have an American accent when they're speaking Italian.

So she told me to shut up. So I sit in the bed. I sit in the bed like a lump

the bed. I sit in the bed like a lump and then she sits there with the kids beside us and that's the nighttime routine and then they go to bed.

What's been the best part of hosting the All-In podcast with the guys?

Honestly, the the it's it's it's strangely brought us all closer together. There was um

together. There was um Were you guys originally all close?

Well, me and Sax um me and Sax have known each other for 22 years. me and JCAL maybe for 25,

years. me and JCAL maybe for 25, but we hated each other for the first five. I couldn't stand Jason. He had he

five. I couldn't stand Jason. He had he was like an executive at AOL when I was there and I thought this insufferable

guy and then somehow we kind of started bonding in the early mid 2000s became friends. Freeberg joined our friend

friends. Freeberg joined our friend group maybe in 201 12 or 13. So

So this was just your friend group that you guys were like let's do a podcast together because we're all bored with co Yeah, we were like losing our minds.

So, what's been the worst part about doing it?

Uh, we cannot agree on anything. So, the

the thing has not really evolved.

Meaning, you could say, "Guys, you should uh prepare more and it should have 40% business, 20% politics, 10% tech. We could never get an agreement."

tech. We could never get an agreement."

You would say, "Hey guys, we should be in a studio. It's a better vibe. Can't

get anybody to agree. Hey guys, um XYZ person wants to be interviewed. It's

honestly Katie, it is like four people in four different directions.

Has it brought you guys closer together or further apart?

Closer. Yeah.

Would you do it again?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been great.

Has anyone ever asked to be the fifth member of the gang?

There there is there are people that we call the fifth besties who are like the the people that that we that we rely on like Brad Gersner. Um he's been a fifth bestie a lot. Gavin Baker. But the

funniest and the most tilting thing is that our moderator Jason is he takes the moderation job very seriously, but he's also incredibly tilted by Andrew Ross

Sorcin.

I think it's like a professional jealousy thing. So me and Freeberg are

jealousy thing. So me and Freeberg are in this long-term game of every time in the pod, I didn't tell you this, in the group chat, we always text like, "Oh, Sorcin would be great at this." Well,

Sorcin would be great control.

such a good troll.

He said we're in a long-term troll of Jason.

Who's the spontaneous one and who's the planner between the two of us?

The planner.

Yeah. I uh because he is spontaneous to the to the point that he's very focused and we said he's very very smart on the

things he does. But on other things, on other things, he's just like not good to the point, like for example, if I had ever asked him to book flights, he would

book flights at midnight with children that are three years old. And you're

like, do you understand that this child will not sleep throughout the whole trip? What happens when a child is is

trip? What happens when a child is is sleepd deprived after 24 hours? They

will start crying and crying. it'll be

harder for them to sleep and it'll be a nightmare, but he thinks somebody else will manage that nightmare. That's

somebody else is me. And so I I don't uh Yeah, he doesn't put many things together. So he the planning part is

together. So he the planning part is just really bad and it's so funny at the same time because it's so bad.

It is really bad. But we have found that we have a a we have like five families that we all have very kids the same age.

We spend a lot of time and it turns out that Oh my gosh, Jason Chang. Jason Chang,

one of the husbands, is like the super planner. So now the whole point is just

planner. So now the whole point is just to make sure everything we do Jason's involved because he plans everything.

I I didn't want to take on the planning role, but because he was not really just not even meeting the the the the stand the understanding of what goes around.

for example, let's book a holiday for five children that have a specific schedule the day off. Like things like that where you're like, "Okay, because he wants me to do that." But it's the

same thing when he's asked to contribute to to the kitchen, for example. Hey, can

you help me do the plates? And he starts saying like, "Uh, where are the plates?"

And in our house and then and and what sorry, sorry, where are the glasses? And

at the end of the day, of course, you said, "Don't worry, I'll take care of it." And and it's a it's all a strategy,

it." And and it's a it's all a strategy, of course, but I don't know how to get out of the thing. Anyways, now we have this friend of ours who we've discovered is unbeatable. So some things like

is unbeatable. So some things like spreadsheets, itemized lists.

I love that.

Like if you go and take ski lessons, he'll say, "Would you guys like a weighted cost for your hours because you didn't actually use all of the time?"

And you're like, "Who is this guy?

putting the children together, making sure everybody commits.

What's a conspiracy theory that you believe in?

It's the conspiracy theories are not uh don't really blend in in my way of thinking. So,

thinking. So, theoretically not, but I would say that if I did end up believing in one, I would tell you that it's not a conspiracy. It's facts. So,

conspiracy. It's facts. So,

I think there are UFOs.

I think it's mathematically at this point inconceivable.

Do do you know what I mean by this? Like

we I do. I asked Elon this question

I do. I asked Elon this question specifically in the podcast and he claims that there's no UFOs. So

I think it's mathematically typically believe Elon on these things.

Yeah, it's mathematically implausible that there are none though.

But it's physically plausible just because it's physically plausible. It's

physically plausible that they may have burned up or we only have fragments.

Yeah. But it's mathematically implausible that as vast as the universe is with all of our different like it's not as if many trillion light years away

it is also 2026. Do you know what I mean by that?

They've been evolving at a very different rate of speed.

Okay.

I think it's a limited one. If if I had to go like with your uh fun one because we are protected by the moon like there's so many aspects that might make

what you're saying 50% probable 50% like with my ignorance level I would say that there's a high probability that you're wrong.

What's the last book you read?

Uh what's the last book you read?

Oh gosh. Uh I just bought this book uh called Art Thief. Have you heard about this?

No. There is a guy who over the course of 20 years stole $2 billion dollars worth of art from various museums across Europe and he would keep them in his attic.

Did he give it all back?

And he got caught and his mom like destroyed half of it. His mom went to jail, he went to jail, uh the girlfriend went to jail, then he got released. Then

it turned out that he stole a bunch more, went back to jail, and this New York Times best-selling book is about that guy's life.

Oh, that's cool.

Yeah. Art thief.

Ring. Uh, a friend of ours actually. Oh,

Jamie's book.

Yeah. Gave us this book and, uh, it's it's the story of Ring. Jamie Se, the founder of Ring.

Um, yeah. But it's the story. I love

seeing perspectives of our friends in a different light and seeing their journey.

So, last question we ask everybody on the podcast. If you could host a dinner

the podcast. If you could host a dinner party with three people, dead or alive, who's sitting at the table and what are you eating?

Okay, my people would be Winston Churchill, Daycart, the mathematician, and Michael Jordan.

What do you mean?

I would have Wagyu beef. Well, okay. I

would start with an amuse, something light. Uh,

light. Uh, I would have maybe like some talotelli with white truffles, then Wagyu, really great pairing with wine, and then I would have like sticky toffee pudding at

the end, like really calorically dense cuz Churchill was into calories.

Those would be my three.

Who are your three in this moment in time? I think I would love to have Jesus at the table and just

sense um what it means to have faith and understand but he wouldn't be a fun conversation because I would guess he would ask a lot of questions and answer very widely. So I would still want uh

very widely. So I would still want uh Napoleon and Cleopatra for opposite reasons. Napoleon I feel is the epitome

reasons. Napoleon I feel is the epitome of something that I've observed very much in the Silicon Valley and that's really an interesting fact. Men with big insecurities that are incredibly

successful. There's something magic

successful. There's something magic about how these two um things that would be would otherwise be in collision actually provide the setup for great success stories.

And what are you eating?

Um nothing. She No, she'd want like air.

nothing. She No, she'd want like air.

No, the meal would be like air. I would have um actually I'm in I don't know a lot of small plates. I would want fish. I would

small plates. I would want fish. I would

want vegetables. I would want a little bit of bread.

Terrible.

Um Middle Eastern taste. I don't know.

Terrible.

Everything and nothing.

Basically air.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Thanks Katie.

Thanks so much for watching this episode of the Katie Miller podcast. Don't

forget we're available every Tuesday night at 600 p.m. Eastern. Where you get your podcast. Please follow, like,

your podcast. Please follow, like, subscribe, and share. And we'll see you next Tuesday at 6 PM.