Chas Freeman: The Emerging Iran-Russia-China Axis & Israel's Possible Demise

Welcome back. We are joined today by Chaz Freeman, uh former US assistant secretary of defense and also uh the US

ambassador to Saudi Arabia. So, welcome

back as always. It's uh great to see you.

>> Great to see you, Glenn.

>> So, uh well, you have background not just from uh your work in the Middle East, but also from East Asia. Um I

think more specifically you you did work uh some with Henry Kissinger during the time when he opened China to the United States. Uh and uh yeah for this reason

States. Uh and uh yeah for this reason I've been looking forward to ask you a bit more about how you see this Chinese view of the war against Iran because it

does seem like an important topic as this war has this uh important uh global dimension to it. It seems that this is well the Iranian war is um is a

sensitive one between the great powers that is the US, Russia and China.

>> Yes, I think the Chinese have um do not have a unified view on this. Um there

are those of course particularly in the Chinese People's Liberation Army who are thrilled to see the United States essentially disarming itself by depleting its stocks of weapons and

defensive um mechanism interception equipment and so on. I noticed that all of the talk

so on. I noticed that all of the talk that had been going around in the United States about stationing intermediate range ballistic missiles in Pacific Asia

has ceased. Uh so some people are very

has ceased. Uh so some people are very happy about the military dimension. Uh

geopolitical thinkers uh are disturbed on the grounds that u this is destabilizing a central region of global

commerce and energy supplies. um you

can't get between Europe and Asia, Asia and Europe uh and uh uh or northern Europe and Africa except through West

Asia and that is now essentially impassible. I understand that Azerbaijan

impassible. I understand that Azerbaijan has become the primary uh route uh uh from Asia to Europe now because you

can't go across Iran, can't go across the Gulf um and so on. So, um, they're disturbed on that level, but they're also disturbed, of course, because this

represents a complete repudiation of international law, the UN charter.

There's not even an excuse of legality being profered for this this war. And

um, uh, and we of course come to the point that um, the street of Hormuz is closed. It has not been necessary for

closed. It has not been necessary for Iran to mine it because it commands the land passage one half of it and is able

to sink anything that tries to get through. The Chinese have very cleverly

through. The Chinese have very cleverly and in probably in return for additional help to Iran arranged for the safe passage of their tankers through the

straight of so Iranian tankers and Chinese tankers uh can avoid the blockade. Um but uh of

course this is also having major effects on Chinese economic planning. It's going

to redouble their already very impressive turn away from fossil fuels to renewable energy and the like. Uh and

it is deeply um in the Asian-Pacific region. Uh which is a description I

region. Uh which is a description I prefer to Indopacific because the Indo-Pacific is essentially a figment of the American military imagination.

um it coincides with the command the area of responsibility for the command in Hawaii but India is not really linked that closely to Southeast Asia at this

point in history. Um

in um in Pacific Asia uh Japan is under tremendous stress uh because it is totally dependent on imports of oil and

gas and it has been cut off from them.

it has a strategic petroleum reserve but it's not adequate for the probable length of this war and of course uh Japanese relations with China been

deeply troubled particularly by the Takahuchi administration but even before that similarly Taiwan

uh which is phasing out its nuclear uh program um it had similar to France it had great reliance on nuclear power. Uh

it has very limited storage capacity for oil and gas and so it is going to be essentially incapacitated.

Uh and maybe that will tempt some in China to advocate trying to bring the civil war to an end with the conquest of Taiwan. Uh South Korea uh is a country

Taiwan. Uh South Korea uh is a country that has an improving relationship with China, but it too it has been terribly hard hit

economically by this closure of the strait. Uh the South Korean stock market

strait. Uh the South Korean stock market has essentially crashed. Uh and people are in a very foul mood there. Uh

Southeast Asia undoubtedly is suffering also because the Chinese have cut off diesel and gasoline exports. They've been a major

gasoline exports. They've been a major supplier for Southeast Asia of finished petroleum products. U so they're mixed

petroleum products. U so they're mixed feelings some geopolitical some um some concern about global order. And I should

say last and another final point is this drives China definitively closer to Russia. Uh the Russian supply of gas

Russia. Uh the Russian supply of gas through the planned but never built power of Siberia pipeline is now

becoming a reality because the Chinese want to further reduce their dependence

on maritime supply chains. So um uh the effect of the war is um is profound um

uh and I've not even mentioned um its effects elsewhere. Um for example,

effects elsewhere. Um for example, Brazil and South Africa have just done a deal to cooperate militarily.

I suspected that the turn toward a purely military uh effort to dominate Latin America from by the United States would cause some

Latin American countries to arm against the United States in ways that they had not. They never considered South Africa

not. They never considered South Africa as a partner. Although of course South Africa has a formidable arms industry developed during the apartate era when

it was subject to arms embargo.

ironically helped in its development of jet aircraft, cruise missiles, and nuclear weapons by Israel. Uh I suspect we're going to see a further knock-on

effect down the road that the Japanese who are emerging from pacifism and who are lifting the restrictions on

the ex their export of weapons systems uh and expanding the what they will license. I think they're also going to

license. I think they're also going to become a partner of Brazil. Uh there's a very large Japanese Brazilian population. The connections may be not

population. The connections may be not very well publicized, but they're very real. And again, you have a a market

real. And again, you have a a market because both Japan and Brazil are now going to be increasing their defense

spending. Uh Japan is

spending. Uh Japan is uh one of the premier practitioners of capital inensive precision machine building and uh that includes weapons.

Uh and how can the United States object to a US ally rather than China becoming the source of Brazilian military modernization?

So, I mean, I think the knock-on effects of this thing are just beginning to become apparent or uh or at least um

predictable and um uh speculative perhaps. Um and um the Chinese are

perhaps. Um and um the Chinese are in the middle of a lot of this.

The other great power though, which the US obviously has to consider, would be Russia. And um we know that Trump just

Russia. And um we know that Trump just uh called Putin. We don't know too much about the call. There's been uh you know some comment from the Russian side based

on all the wording they use. Uh it

sounds as if it was not friendly cuz well they never used the word friendly.

They used frank businesslike. Uh that

usually well in other instances uh it implies uh yeah less yeah that it was more disagreements at least. Uh but uh

how do you see what the Russians are after and uh to what ex what are they willing to actually do uh in in the past uh you know or you can say still to some

extent Russians have always been close to Israel you know some from you know from the liber liberation of Aswitch in the second world war to the amount of

Russians who reside in Israel but um but I think the Ukraine war it's with Israel's help to Ukraine it created a

quite some divisions between the two countries meanwhile the Iranian side it seems you know from the uh the common I

guess fighting they did in Syria they looked towards opportunities to go from this you know limited uh common interest to some strategic partnership you know

to develop this greater Eurasian concept where they their economies are closer linked. So,

linked. So, you know, so this is a problem. And

also, of course, the United States is fighting a war against Russia still in Ukraine. Um, I saw that Trump said that

Ukraine. Um, I saw that Trump said that uh Russia thinks we are we're helping Ukraine. That's why they might help Iran

Ukraine. That's why they might help Iran a little, which I found to be an incredible statement. I mean, I didn't

incredible statement. I mean, I didn't but you know, be that as it may, uh, yes. So to summarize uh my question, how

yes. So to summarize uh my question, how how do you see this uh USRussia talks uh contributing or affecting this war against Iran?

>> Well, of course, we don't know really what was in the conversation as you indicated, but I think it's pretty clear that it was an effort by President Trump

to seek Russian assistance uh in ending this war with Iran. And we we know there have been other approaches to the Iranians to end the war. And they have

firmly said that they're not going to accept a ceasefire or any negotiation with the United States and until their uh conditions have been met, their their

objectives. And those objectives are

objectives. And those objectives are essentially to do to Israel what Israel has been doing to them for decades.

uh named name namely to um deter or destroy them. Um and um uh they Israel

destroy them. Um and um uh they Israel posed an existential threat to Iran and is now Iran is now posing an existential

threat to Israel. Uh and its essential aim is the decolonization of West Asia including the destruction of the Zionist state, the removal of American forces

from the Gulf and so forth. Uh the

conversation with uh Putin apparently according to President Trump included Putin's uh recognition of the intensity

of the bombing campaign uh impressively intensive bombing campaign the United States has mounted against Iran. Um I

don't know whether it also included advice based on the experience of Russia which is quite relevant if you consider for a moment. Let's assume I think it's

correct that there are many in Iran um who fear and love the Islamic Republic and would like to see it uh changed. um

uh we don't know how many uh because u uh these people to some extent are manipulated and funded by foreign forces but they're probably is a substantial

group. The experience of Russia is very

group. The experience of Russia is very relevant in this regard. When Germany

invaded Russia, I suppose there were very many Russians who feared and loathed the system that Stalin had put in place and even Stalin himself.

uh and yet they loved their country more than they hated the system. And I think we're seeing this also in Iran. Uh so

there are parallels there. Uh of course uh Iran had been helpful to Russia with a shahed um drone uh a technical trans

technology transfer which is now built in Russia in stupend stupendous numbers.

Um um and I think Iran Iran has received considerable help this time around not before the June 2025 war from Russia in the form of technology transfer. We know

that there are aircraft transfers going on and um air defense systems and the like uh also from China. Neither China nor

Russia wishes to see Iran subjugated by Israel.

um both of them have a stake in maintaining good relations with the Gulf Arabs and so they they abstained on the m on the resolution in the security

council which was one-sided in its condemnation of Iran's attack on the GCC countries didn't mention that the United States and or I should say Israel

assisted by the United States had uh inaugurated the war. Um, so they basically uh didn't want to offend the Gulf Arabs. Uh, they certainly didn't

Gulf Arabs. Uh, they certainly didn't want to endorse the uh the the uh the war itself and they just they just

abstained. Um, I think um the war this

abstained. Um, I think um the war this war and the one last year have had the effect of drawing Iran and Russia closer. Historically they were not

closer. Historically they were not friends. um they are now uh very

friends. um they are now uh very cooperative and in in many respects I think Russian influence is growing in Iran. Uh it will probably grow too

Iran. Uh it will probably grow too afterwards both Chinese and Russian influence because the United States and Israel are doing huge damage to infrastructure

uh edififices, buildings and so forth in uh Iran and it will have to be rebuilt. Um let me sort of end this by saying that uh there's another

uh element here and that is Iran has officially demanded reparations for the damage and it is insisting on a on

sanctions relief which of course it it got under the nuclear accord which Donald Trump tore up in 2018 and um and

um uh and the sanctions are the source of a great deal, not all, but a great deal of the distress of the Iranian uh people.

So, um I think the Russians have taken this too. Uh let me end by just saying

this too. Uh let me end by just saying of Russia that um Russia's uh those Russians I've spoken with, not many um

are shortling in their glee. Uh oil and gas prices are going through the ceiling. Um, I understand the European

ceiling. Um, I understand the European Union has just decided to uh take the Arctic gas from Russia despite its

embargo on all energy from Russia earlier which at least is pragmatic. Um,

of course the United States in response to understandable demands from India and others has has suspended the oil

sanctions on Russia for some purposes.

Um, Qatar has been removed temporarily at least as a competitor for Russian gas. Uh, Vladimir Putin is playing games

gas. Uh, Vladimir Putin is playing games with Europeans on the gas issue and um, Russian influence, Russian revenues

uh, are going up. Finally, this war is a blessing for Russia in terms of Ukraine because the exhaustion of American weapons stock stockpiles means that

there will be no weapons for the United States to sell to Europe for onward passage to Ukraine. So Ukraine is going to get itself disarmed to some extent at

least. Uh and that's going to happen

least. Uh and that's going to happen fairly soon. So if you were sitting in

fairly soon. So if you were sitting in Moscow um you might see this is very favorable and indeed one of the people I

spoke with said he couldn't imagine how lucky Vladimir Putin had been. Um, you

know, not only quoting Napoleon, Capillian said, "If I must fight, let it be against a coalition," meaning I can divide my enemies. But he doesn't even

have to do that because Donald Trump is dividing the opposition to Russia and simultaneously diminishing American global power, prestige, authority, moral

authority, and and leadership. Uh, what

more could you ask? So I you said that you thought the conversation had not been friendly. Um but I'm sure that

been friendly. Um but I'm sure that Vladimir Putin has plenty of reasons to want to encourage Donald Trump to do more of the same. It's very good for Russia. It's not good for the United

Russia. It's not good for the United States.

uh and uh uh it it no one is going to come out of this war uh in my view except Russia perhaps um better off than they were when we went

into it.

>> I think Napoleon also said never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake.

There seems to be one oh this has become this has become part of the folklore of statesmanship and its wisdom is constantly demonstrated by the American

administration.

I'm thinking though that it you know one one could imagine a situation where suddenly you know Iranian missiles uh ped purchased or

given by Russia would suddenly begin to fly towards uh you know storm shadow factories in Britain or some um some

weapon complexes in in Germany. It's

>> not impossible.

>> Sorry, >> it's not impossible.

>> No. Uh we have in in the United States right now an example of our failure to understand our own double standards.

There's a great uh uh deal of condemnation. Well, my god, the Russians

condemnation. Well, my god, the Russians are providing intelligence to the Iranians to enable them to attack Americans. But what do they think we've

Americans. But what do they think we've been doing in Ukraine all this time? Uh

and um you know I mean you you know one ill turn eventually leads to another I

think. So um yeah um we keep escalating

think. So um yeah um we keep escalating and the Russians have been very cautious actually. They have not responded in

actually. They have not responded in kind um and uh they have not given anybody targeting information in the UK

as far as I can tell. uh you know but um uh or Germany uh it's not out of the realm of possibility

that if Europeans press them hard enough they will decide that the answer is uh is u drones. Uh I want to make a

fundamental point here which is that if you look at um Moscow, look at Tehran, look at the Palestinians, uh they've all come to the same

conclusion.

There's no point in negotiating with the United States.

Diplomacy is useless.

These issues are going to be solved on the battlefield, on the ground. uh or in the case of Iran and Israel um they're going to be settled by the industrial

capacities and inventories of weapons and defensive systems that each side possesses. And it's very clear that as

possesses. And it's very clear that as I've said before u uh on your show u the uh the Iranians have adopted Muhammad

Ali's strategy of rope a dope you know allow your opponent to punch you so and exhaust himself before you deliver a

knockout blow. We just se have seen in

knockout blow. We just se have seen in the last day or two the beginning of Iranian use of heavy uh missiles with uh

warheads of around uh 1,000 or 1,500 kilos depending on how they're loaded aimed at Israel. Uh and these roarheads

uh these these missiles are extremely hard to intercept.

uh and um they have clearly saved these they've been these were in storage. I

think what we're seeing is a very clearly articulated uh phased strategic

plan in on the h on the part of Iran um in which each phase makes the success of the next phase more likely. And we're

now in a phase where the reserved most destructive weapons are beginning to be used. Apparently they've got another

used. Apparently they've got another missile which they plan to use which they have not fielded yet. That's

according to u the Israeli intelligence um which is quite fearful and has put the entire air defense system in Israel

into its most u intensive mode in anticipation of an attack by this so far uh undescribed new weapon. So, so I

think you know this war is proceeding uh along the lines of the war uh last year uh in terms of exhausting Israeli interception capability,

American interception capability. And

here it's notable that on the very first day of the war uh Iran took out the the radars for the theater high altitude air

defense system. took out the radar in in

defense system. took out the radar in in inqatar that um was basically the means of controlling the entire airspace in the

region uh and has been very carefully focused on specific targets. They've

even named them. They are now striking at the Israeli submarine force. is

striking at unit 8200 8200 which is the signals intelligence uh uh and the computer uh digital uh uh command

structure in Israel. Uh they're hitting the Israeli high command and they're bl they're aiming at the um the defensive infrastructure radars and and that sort

of thing.

uh they have not yet uh contrary to what might have been expected as far as I can see emulated the Israelis and the Americans by attacking civilian

structures. Uh they seem still to be

structures. Uh they seem still to be focused. Whether that's because they're

focused. Whether that's because they're simply rationing their force or because uh they quaintly adhere to ethical standards

uh is hard to say.

Well, first you you said something interesting before this um this idea that one can come in and bomb a government uh to assist opposition. This

is a very flawed idea which tends to you know confuse and even you know even if the public is opposed to an unpopular

government and uh and I do think that we exaggerate how unpopular the government in Iran is does mean that there's not significant disscent uh but uh but this

is very you know counterproductive even you know the United States at one point also invaded the Soviet to an extent. It has an they had an expedition

extent. It has an they had an expedition force after the Bolevik revolution during the civil war, >> right?

>> Well, one could call it an invasion, but anyways, the troops were sent in and uh and this was to help the whites against the reds. But it did the exact opposite.

the reds. But it did the exact opposite.

It turned the public because the reds were now the ones defending the homeland, standing up for sovereignty while the whites were, you know, plotting against their own nation with a

foreign power. I mean nationalism even

foreign power. I mean nationalism even for the communists which try to transcend nationalism this is a powerful force deep in human nature this is a

this not yeah well they're defending the group more or less so this is kind of um uh yeah this should have been predictable from history that this doesn't work especially you know if one

deals with people like Alavi who you know supposedly supposed to be this unifier I mean it's it seems like fantasy Um but I I I >> fantasy.

>> Sorry, >> it is fantasy.

>> Yeah, >> not seems like it. It is. I mean, you're absolutely right. Um and I would say

absolutely right. Um and I would say we're beginning to hear anecdotal evidence, of course. Um but there are western reporters in Tehran who people

around, they can move around apparently.

Uh they can interview people. Of course,

those people are quite guarded under the current circumstances, but apparently some of them have u have openly expressed opposition to the Islamic

Republic. Um so they're not silenced. Um

Republic. Um so they're not silenced. Um

but um anecdotally, what's also coming out is people saying, well, you know, I thought uh when Donald Trump said he was going to come save us that um you know,

that that was we were going to be liberated somehow.

uh and and instead we're being killed and I don't like that. And this goes back to the defense of the Rodina. You

know, I don't know what the word in Persian for that is, but I'm sure there's an equally u a word that's equally resonant as that word is in

Russian. And um uh so um there's a final

Russian. And um uh so um there's a final point here and that is Iran in a sense the Islamic revolution was the first of

many uprisings that one successful uh in West Asia directed at ending western tutilage

decolonizing the country restoring its independence

and defending its cultural identity. Uh

in the end u I believe there's a hierarchy of national interests and the sup in everywhere and the supreme national interest is your identity as a

people, your culture, your political culture, your traditions, your language, uh your beliefs, your religion. They're

all bound up in this question of national identity. Uh and um so um I

national identity. Uh and um so um I think the Iranian national identity um in addition to being very strong after

all it is a civilizational state. Um the

Iranian national identity despite the many minorities it is a um it is a civilizational state u which commands the loyalty of most uh

I think it's bound up very much with Shiism and Shiism is a religion that accepts martyrdom and glorifies it. In

other words, it accepts contemporary current suffering and turns it into strength.

Uh in my impression of Israel is that uh Israelis turn suffering into hatred.

Uh which is not a particularly auspicious or appealing approach to others. Uh if you had to choose between

others. Uh if you had to choose between strength and hatred, I think you would find strength more advantageous. Anyway,

um this is a contest which in the case of Zionism also involves uh a national identity, culture,

religion, uh traditions and uh in the case of Zionism uh the celebration of past victimhood

and the desire for revenge against any non-Jew for that that past suffering which is real. Of course, uh the people who did

real. Of course, uh the people who did the uh who administered the suffering were nowhere in the Middle East. They

were not Arabs. They were not Persians.

Last I heard, I think they were Germans, French, Poles, you know, whoever. Um

Europeans of one sort or another. And um

um so nonetheless uh little Israeli school kids are taken to Avitz to tour tour to keep the myth if you

will the inspiration of the state alive and they're told don't talk to the Poles they're all anti-semites. Well that's of course total nonsense but um this is a

very a society which has chosen chosen to make u the Holocaust. its central

uh myth or of origin and um uh that's very powerful. I think uh we'll see how well

powerful. I think uh we'll see how well our Israelis bear up under the suffering I think they're about to experience. So

far the amount of destruction in Israel appears to have been less than in June uh last year, but it is escalating.

Yeah. No, that's um the that's what struck me when I was in Iran as well. The the celebration of martyrdom, not not not a desire to die,

but the honoring of people who, you know, do this ultimate self-sacrifice for for the the homeland. I mean, this is um kind of strong, especially for the

Shiite. So, uh that's why I thought

Shiite. So, uh that's why I thought killing I mean, they make so little sense. The idea that, you know, you kill

sense. The idea that, you know, you kill the top spiritual leader and uh the result would be that people will pour into the streets welcoming Americans

with flowers. It I it begs the question

with flowers. It I it begs the question though like who who is who is advising here because uh it's it just sounds so cartoonish. I I don't understand how how

cartoonish. I I don't understand how how this was the expectation. But uh and anyways they say that uh you know we spent 20 years in Afghanistan to replace

the Taliban with the Taliban and Iran we replaced the Kame with Kame. So new one with force but this new one not as moderate as his father and of course his

father was killed mother sister wife son and of course his country had been bombed. So, I'm assuming that uh uh

bombed. So, I'm assuming that uh uh we're going to miss his father uh if >> Yeah, I think um you know, of course, the objectives that have been stated for

this war are incoherent and inconsistent, but two of them u uh are directly

affected by the murder of Kam senior Ali Kam. um uh one is whether Iran will

Kam. um uh one is whether Iran will build a nuclear weapon. Uh Kame was the

principal opponent of that. He stood by the fatwa that said um with it had an out in it, but it it said basically

uh weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, nuclear are all forbidden by religion because they're evil. He also said however if the

evil. He also said however if the existence of the Iranian nation is at stake this moral restraint can be set aside

and there's every reason to believe on the basis of loss of information uh that

uh much of a son now the supreme leader is a proponent of going nuclear. So I

think as we have some of us have feared um we're seeing a replay of the scenario in North Korea in which implacable

maximum pressure in the absence of real diplomacy as opposed to performative diplomacy um combined

to produce a nuclear armed ICBM.

Uh and I think that's what's in the future.

So um the second objective of course was in murdering him of course was this ridiculous theory that if you kill the

leader in a society with deeply embedded institutions and and traditions that somehow that's going to produce the collapse of the government and the and

the regime. Uh that doesn't happen

the regime. Uh that doesn't happen anywhere and um it didn't happen in Iran. And in fact, quite the opposite

Iran. And in fact, quite the opposite happened. The regime now is strengthened

happened. The regime now is strengthened not only because protests are unacceptable to patriotic Iranians, but

because the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard uh is now um greatly strengthened. The younger Kam is a

strengthened. The younger Kam is a patron of theirs. His father helped to build them. But uh the relationship

build them. But uh the relationship between the younger supreme leader and and the revolutionary guard which is the hardline defender of the Islamic

Republic u uh is very close. So I think we've also shifted Iranian politics away from any mood to compromise and we see

that in the response of Ali Larani and others to the apparent overtures from the Trump administration. Well, let's

stop this war, you know. Um, let's you agreed to a ceasefire. The response has not just been no, it's been hell no.

We're not going to talk to you. Why

should we look at who you send to talk with us? to real estate agents uh who

with us? to real estate agents uh who don't know what they're doing and can't deliver Donald Trump uh and can't keep

an agreement um or an understanding and who uh lend themselves uh to deceit to deception and surprise attacks on us. Um

we're not going to talk to to them again. This is the line. Um I suspect it

again. This is the line. Um I suspect it in the end they will talk but um uh they will have to have achieved a great deal more than they have. They will be under

pressure, the Iranians, from lost oil revenues, uh lost gas revenues, um from uh the public, which is probably already pretty

tired of this thing. Uh and but um uh like the Israelis, they're bent on revenge. Now, Israelis are revenging

revenge. Now, Israelis are revenging crimes committed in Europe uh against Iranian surrogates. the Iranians will

Iranian surrogates. the Iranians will avenge themselves against Israel. And so

this we had a situation where Iran was a potential threat to Israel. Israel was

an actual threat to Iran. Now each is an actual threat to the other. How is this better? I suppose the definition of the

better? I suppose the definition of the purpose of war is that offered by William Tikcumsa Sherman the American general in our civil war who said the

purpose of war is to produce a better peace.

This may do that but not without a great deal of destruction. He by the way was famous mainly for having destroyed everything in his path as he marched

through Georgia and other parts of the American south.

And I think you know we're we're looking at some we're looking at a prospect which is very hard to define what will all this in the meantime as I indicated

earlier geopolitical rearrangements are occurring people are drawing lessons from this. I think in the case of

from this. I think in the case of Europe, uh, the willingness to pamper and uh propitiate,

uh, to appease Donald Trump, to flatter him in order to manage him, uh, is becoming a little bit tired. Um, uh, I

don't see many people willing to do what Mark Gut has done, which, uh, I've always thought was a bit quite a bit

much. um calling Trump daddy and so

much. um calling Trump daddy and so forth.

>> Uh understatement of it.

>> Yes.

>> Yes.

>> But I think the willingness I don't know I mean you're sitting in Europe. I'm

not. But um I think the willingness of Europeans to abase themselves before the

tyrant um is is is running out.

>> Yeah. No, it's not uh this observance is not fun to watch, you know, cuz not just the security, political relevance and economics going down, but also all

dignity and self-respect. So, but um I I was wondering a lot of western observers, they kind of over the last few years expressed concerns that Iran

was drifting more towards uh China and Russia through bricks and the SEO.

However, I'm thinking now that perhaps we should be happy that they are growing closer with China and Russia simply because I think their friends and allies

are the ones that would restrain Iran in terms of uh of not not wanting to, you know, get let the thirst for revenge go overboard. Um but I

overboard. Um but I >> Sorry.

>> No, I think that's right. Um but there's another factor here. Just as there is in Christendom in the Christian world uh a lot of thought about proper conduct

during war which is obviously the exception to what um uh Christianity imagines God's will to be. Um there is a

similar tradition in Islam and a very strong one in Iran and it's pragmatic.

In the end, when you when you when you start a war, of course, as as you know, you first thing you do is uh state clear objectives, verify that

they're feasible, devote the resources to them necessary to achieve them, have a plan to end the war

so that it doesn't become a forever war.

But you also need to bear in mind the need that after the war, the post-war period, you're going to have to reconcile people to the results of the

war. And that means uh you have to

war. And that means uh you have to behave in a relatively decent fashion and uh not uh gratuitously

uh wreak violence on people. uh in

January when he came uh into the uh into the Pentagon um uh um Pete Hexath the

selfd designated secretary of war um secretary of defense legally um did a couple of things. One thing was he

suspended the requirement for human intervention in targeting and the girls school was targeted by an artificial

intelligence with no human check on it.

Uh and Pete Hgsth I think uh could easily be found guilty of having uh enabled that war crime. Perhaps he

didn't order it himself. He has ordered other war crimes. uh the slaughter of people in the Caribbean uh after they

have uh deserved rescue. Uh but he also um has suspended all uh respect for international law, said that there

should be no rules of engagement.

Um he has altered the uh or basically eliminated the requirement to judge targets with regard to the collateral damage to the innocent that the ch

striking them may entail.

And we're back to uh the morality of Jenghis Khan uh who uh who did not believe in either Islam or Christianity

um and uh was quite ruthless. I'm told,

at least the Russians tell me so. So, um

I think uh uh the damage to uh decent world order quite aside from how it's rearranged

u in terms of regional hegemony or regional systems substituting for the global system which is dying. Uh the UN

is marginalized.

Uh I and you know people are beginning finally to talk about what to do about that. But um I think the moral order

that. But um I think the moral order that uh the world's great religions uh and philosophers have I think of Emanuel

K who have people who are grotes people who have developed really very uh strategically based reasons for

compassion in the midst of war. I think

this has all been swept aside. uh we

need to rediscover it because in the end as Rabbi Hel said u thousands of years ago

in in uh in Babylon um you should not do to other people what you don't want them to do to you. Uh the same thought by the

way was voiced by the confusions.

Uh Jesus expressed it in the opposite way. you should do to other people what

way. you should do to other people what you hope they will do for you. But um uh it's a basic

element in ethics and it's been dismissed and um well regarding your comment I'm pretty sure the Russians did did tell you about the ruthlessness of the

Mongols. They they do keep this alive.

Mongols. They they do keep this alive.

When when I was teaching at the university there at Vishka in in Moscow, uh our officers were at the or the university was at Malaya Dinka. Well,

they're still at the Malayinka, but it means uh the the hoarder and this this was on that same street was where the

Mongols would come right in to claim their tribute. So, you know, they they

their tribute. So, you know, they they don't forget.

>> No, they don't. and and it's a good re you know it's a nice illustration of how if you uh do hateful things you will be hated and not just for one generation

but for many uh this is something that the United States and more particularly Israel which is a small country uh

basically a European dominated colony in the middle of uh a different culture um need to need to remember

Just as a last question, I want to circle back to the Israeli issue. That

is um uh well based on the American statements alone, it seems very clear that Israel pushed the United States hard for this war does mean that uh you know Trump wouldn't have done it

otherwise. We don't know, but at least

otherwise. We don't know, but at least Israeli pushed for it. Now, now that plan A, which I assume was regime change or dismantling of Iran, seems to have failed,

where does plan B go for the Israelis?

Because, uh, you know, Netanyahu has pushed for this war for what, 30 plus years? Uh, there's no attractive

years? Uh, there's no attractive alternative.

So, what do they do if they're losing a war, but they can't afford to well to let the war end? Uh, or or am I misreading it? How How are you seeing

misreading it? How How are you seeing this? Because a very dangerous situation

this? Because a very dangerous situation it seems uh when you have a heavily armed nuclear armed country like Iran, sorry, Israel which is not prepared to

lose a war and they're losing a war.

Yes, I think that is a fundamental problem and uh it raises questions about whether the so-called Samson option may

not be exercised because there is Iran is now prov is now actually providing an effective challenge to the very

existence of Israel. We'll see how many Israelis want to remain. Those who have passports, European passports or American passports or the South American

passports or whatever they have. This is

the Ashkenazim, not the Zahim, the uh the Arab Jews who uh who were forced out of Arab countries

in reaction to the colonization of uh Palestine by European Jews. So anyway,

um yes, big question and the the the Israelis may in extremists um think seriously about the use of nuclear

weapons. Um uh so that is the main main

weapons. Um uh so that is the main main concern. But the broader question is um

concern. But the broader question is um you're quite right, what is plan B generally? Uh Netanyahu spent almost

generally? Uh Netanyahu spent almost four decades trying to find a president who was stupid enough to be manipulated into doing what Donald Trump has done.

Uh you know, this was a moment of glory for Netanyahu. He's he's actually on

for Netanyahu. He's he's actually on videos gloating about how he finally, you know, got the United States to do what he always thought we should do on

behalf of Israel. Um and um it isn't working.

Uh and so uh Israel is going to be transformed one way or another by this.

Um what is the motivation on the Israeli part? It has been uh twofold. One is to

part? It has been uh twofold. One is to establish greater Israel incrementally.

They are taking trying to annex southern Lebanon in the middle of all this um and u expand their borders north not just to the Leani River but to the river beyond

that. uh and um

that. uh and um second they have wanted to ensure that nobody could attack them. Well, the best way to ensure that is uh to ensure that

they have no incentive to attack you.

But Israel constantly provides provocations which lead to attacks on it by oppressed Palestinians or um

those in in Israel's neighborhood who've suffered from its bombing and other campaigns. Um uh this isn't going to

campaigns. Um uh this isn't going to work. Um, in the end, if you want to if

work. Um, in the end, if you want to if you want to exist in a region like West Asia, you have to pursue peaceful coexistence with your neighbors and with

others. And they have not done this.

others. And they have not done this.

Will they now do it? I don't know. But

it's clear that they're overdue for a change of leadership. Um, this man Netanyahu is a a brilliant politician and manipulator.

uh very good at manipulating um my own country and its politics, strongly supported by billionaire

bureaucrats who are Zionist in the United States and some elsewhere. Um and

he's been a catastrophe for Israel. Uh

not just in terms of um the suffering on October 7th when Palestinians broke out of the G concentration camp of Gaza. Uh

and many Israelis died, probably about half of them from friendly fire as it were in the under the Hannibal directive. But still um that was a a

directive. But still um that was a a terrible tragedy and it was brought around by Nadino and he's not been held accountable and

uh the subsequent events the conduct of genocide in Gaza uh by him and his um

cabinet full of uh people who make the Nazis look humane um uh is uh uh is has destroyed Israel's

reputation. entirely and um uh nobody

reputation. entirely and um uh nobody wants to deal with Israel except those in the United States, I guess, and a few other countries who are beholden to it

politically. Um uh or the Germans who

politically. Um uh or the Germans who are uh you know, cursed with their own guilt for for their their terrible

behavior in in in the 1930s and 40s. Uh

so where does Israel go? How many

Israelis are going to remain in Israel?

Uh is Israel able to try any approach to living in its own neighborhood other than uh sniping at people, bombing them,

uh contriving their violent deaths?

What's the answer? I don't know. It's an

answer that Israelis have to find. And I

hope that my country, and this is the final point, one of the things Netanyahu has done with his pattern of behavior, is destroy American support for Israel

at the popular level. Uh even

Republicans are now split. But Democrats

are overwhelmingly favorable to the Palestinian self-determination cause.

uh and um um as part of this effort uh that Netanyahu has mounted, he's destroyed the American constitutional

restraints on the war power. Uh he has damaged the civil liberties of Americans.

Uh we have censorship, corporate, not government imposed. Uh we

have well government imposed in the case of the inroads on academic freedom. Um

this is a tragedy and um uh Americans will react to this. Uh Israelis have to react to it. We have to find a new basis for coexistence between Israel and the

United States. And more particularly

United States. And more particularly Israel needs to find a way to for peaceful coexistence with its neighbors.

uh and um it has not done so, but it's clever enough to do so, I think, if it puts its mind to it.

Yeah. Well, this is my my concern is the the possibility that the Israel would use the nuclear option if it feels its

existence is a threatened. about uh when when this point in time is and uh whether or not there are you know the proper mechanisms in place to put an end

to this war before that happens because uh this is um this should be front and center it seems of the discussion is how because Iran

has to deter restores the turn it has to make sure that this isn't done again on the other hand any excessive retaliation as it is uh if that trigger a nuclear

response is also not ideal because I've seen comments come out of Israel that Iran will never be happy before Israel is exterminated. That's the kind of

is exterminated. That's the kind of rhetoric you would assume would come before uh well essentially the Samson yeah option. So

yeah option. So >> yeah and and it may given Israeli behavior at present it may be true. I

mean after all Israel has said it can't continue without the destruction of Iran.

uh this is not um uh a promising path to uh long long life in the Middle East in

in my view. Um uh so uh but I know you know Iran as I said earlier was a potential threat not an actual threat to

Israel. Now it's an actual threat.

Israel. Now it's an actual threat.

how the Israelis deal with this, if they deal with it with a bit of rethinking about the long term and their their own

interest in surviving as a state in a in an environment where they were implanted by colonialism and are not welcome, have

not made themselves welcome. U then

maybe there's hope. But I don't see any evidence of that sort of thinking yet.

No, I think first we have to accept cause and effect. I saw on Fox News a discussion about you know how the Iranian closure of the straight over Moose essentially proved why this attack

was necessary which kind of puts the Yeah. And but this is a little bit like

Yeah. And but this is a little bit like in NATO we say you know the Russian invasion of Ukraine proves why we need more NATO why Ukraine needs NATO. So

everything is kind of put on its head.

We don't recognize >> that the Iranians they were close to straight of moose before they faced this uh surprise attack which threatens their

existence. Uh but again in logic it's

existence. Uh but again in logic it's called post hawk ergoter hawk. Um and

this is facious reasoning >> and it deserves to be called out and you call it out and god bless you for that but I don't think you get much applause

for it and >> I sure do not.

>> Well chess as always I look forward to our conversation so thank you very much for taking the time. Have a pleasant evening and hope to see you