Claude Cowork Tutorial from Cowork's Design Lead (40 Min) | Jenny Wen

They're creating entire features in days, not weeks these days. I think

about the specs that we used to make 6 months to a year ago and you know be like milestone one, we have these P 0, we have these P1s. We still do that prioritization, but it's usually just like a few bullet points. My secret is

that I actually use co-work for most things now. I start every Monday morning

things now. I start every Monday morning at 10:00 a.m. with this presentation and with like three different product ideas that I can use and kick off the week for. The UI looked so different just

for. The UI looked so different just like four or five weeks ago and now it's like where we're constantly learning like what's working and isn't working.

If you feel like the ground is shifting beneath your feet, it's because it is.

>> Hey everyone, I'm super excited today to welcome Jenny, design lead at Anthropic.

Uh Jenny is going to show us how she uses cloud co-work and cloud code to design and ship products and give us the inside story of co-work and also maybe what's next for her product. So welcome

Janney.

>> Thanks Peter. So, good to be here.

>> Yeah. All right. So, um I'm I'm just really curious like what is a typical day like at work for you? Like what what what tasks take up most of your time?

>> Like is there a typical day? Like I

don't know if there is a typical typical day. Uh but a lot of the things that I

day. Uh but a lot of the things that I spend time doing is it's like to get product out the door, right? Like so but I think that maybe looks different from what it looked like a year or two ago.

Um, and a lot of that is a lot of it is just actually just like jamming with engineers and product people and whatnot in like a less formal way. It's often,

you know, looking at a prototype together and then like pointing out and and thinking about the ways that it could evolve. Um, it's sometimes just

could evolve. Um, it's sometimes just like talking about the behavior of things and then sometimes it's it's it's me like implementing stuff. Um, I think there's also still a big portion of the

time that is like, you know, me designing stuff, prototyping and stuff like that, but it feels like a lot of the way that design works these days is kind of loose. Like it is in in the it's

it sounds so like uh like non-tangible.

It's like, oh, it's a conversation or it's just like jamming with people. Um,

but that is kind of what I I find a lot of the work to do bec to be because it's less, you know, I spend less of my time just focused on one single project, but

I feel like I'm like consulting on like, you know, five or six different projects at any given time.

>> Interesting. Okay. So, basically, you have a bunch of prototypes that generate through like clock or something and then you just kind of jam with the engineers, give some feedback, and then you just prompt AI to like improve it, right? Is

that is that how it works? basically

like uh so and they're not even often prototypes like they're like they're they're working prototypes. things that

are in our internal builds and instances of of claude or co-work. Um, and usually like I've spent some time using the feature, you know, pushing the feature,

seeing what it's capable of and forming opinions and the next step on iterating with on them is often like me just sitting down with the engineer and be like, "Hey, here's what I think. These

are the things I should change." I think part of there is still time where I feel like you know being in the in the design tools and iterating on it and like getting down to polish and to iteration

is like still really really important.

Um so that part hasn't like gone away.

It just I think I think since I'm like operating on more projects at any given time it >> it feels more effective to sort of just like do it really casually and and and informally.

>> Okay. Okay. I mean that that's always been like the most fun part of just like you know being a PM or designer to me just like getting designer engineers and just like looking at a product and iterating. Yeah.

iterating. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So there isn't a lot of um like do you guys still make like uh specs and Figmas and like you know these planning documents or is it just like in the code iterating on prototypes?

>> Uh I mean I still make Figmas. I don't I think we haven't we don't make specs as often like they're and they're not as detailed usually. Yeah. like we still do

detailed usually. Yeah. like we still do that prioritization and it like exists as a document. It's actually really good for us to like hand off to security or legal and stuff like that so they understand what's happening in the

launch but it's usually just like a few bullet points. It's not this like

bullet points. It's not this like beautiful table that's overengineered.

Um and I think the same thing goes for our our Figma files.

>> Okay. So why don't we get into it? So

like now anthropic and by the way like I I spend my whole life on cloud like I I live in cloud these days but like >> uh now now you guys have like three separate products, right? You have

cloud, co-work, and cloud code. And

maybe you can kind of like show us like how you use some of these products or like how what do you you use each one for?

>> Yeah. Uh I will show you co-work because my secret is that I add I actually use co-work for most things now aside from

like the the very uh nitty-gritty production code stuff. So like when I'm polishing, I will still use like cloud code. Um, but I for for all for all

code. Um, but I for for all for all purposes of chat, I actually fully use co-work now. Um, so I will show you some

co-work now. Um, so I will show you some things there. Okay, I'm going to show

things there. Okay, I'm going to show you this account that I'm using with co-work. There's no there's no tasks

co-work. There's no there's no tasks there because this is sort of like not my burner, but it's my uh it's my external account. Uh, but trust me, like

external account. Uh, but trust me, like my actual co-work has like many different sessions that I'm often like running in parallel and whatnot. Um, and

so one thing that I find co-work really helpful for is I I just generally call it sort of like garbage in treasure out.

It's just really good at taking things from a lot of different sources and then like finding and like picking the gems out of it and also making it something

really productive. Um, so right now I've

really productive. Um, so right now I've actually like hooked it up with a folder of uh they're they're not real user interviews. I like actually cut and

interviews. I like actually cut and clawed to generate them, but they're let's just say they're like a bunch of like transcripts from user interviews that we've done from UXR. Um, and I think a thing that we try to do at least

on the co-work team is we try to stay super close to the ground both through like traditional sources of like UXR and like talking to people. um but also through like internal dog fooding

through through things like just this running Slack channel of all this feedback but then also you know social and and and people who are using it and

passionate users there and so um like I think that's actually been a big part of our like somewhat success so far is that we have just been like staying super close to that and iterating really

quickly. So what I will do here is you

quickly. So what I will do here is you know I will say like cool like I have this I have this folder of interviews but I also will tell Claude like hey can

you look on like uh social and all all you know like customer reviews and whatnot of co-work and tell me what the biggest insights are. So, um, look in

this folder of UXR interviews

and on social like and Reddit and other reviews for co-work um or I

guess I'll say like Claude co-work um, tell me what the main insights are and I'll have Claude do that. Um it

might take a little bit of time because it's like going it's truly just going through so much data um and and and processing it. But yeah, it'll do things

processing it. But yeah, it'll do things like it'll sometimes like spin off sub agents to do that in parallel and it'll search the web for a while and do that.

>> But yeah, it's basically just pulling from a wide variety of sources.

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Now back to our episode. And uh in in your real job, do you have some sort of a like weekly insight report or something that you know gets sent to you and your team or something that arrogates all the stuff automatically?

>> I mean we we can make that right now through clo through co-work.

>> So I'll show you the flow for that.

Yeah, we we do in that I think one of our our researchers has one that they'll send out and then we have one that sort of like pings us in Slack as well that

we'll send that out. Um, and then we just we also just like listen to the Slack, like the internal Slack, like we have really been relying on our internal

and like most powerful users to sort of like be the people that gives us like the the sort of bleeding edge feedback because um people internally are really

willing to be honest with you and they're they're often pushing the capabilities furthest and it's easiest to follow up with them too because they are just, you know, so close to you and

like and willing to participate. So, um

we rely on internal feedback a lot which might be counterintuitive.

>> I mean that that that's that's what should happen like and I I feel like most companies like the it's like so siloed that like the teams don't talk for each other's product >> but like it feels like anthropic that very much happens right both for cork and cloud.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like it was a big part I think of cloud code success too is just like listening to your frontline users.

Um and I and that was the thing too that we did a lot at Figma too was a lot of internal dog fooding. Um

>> yeah because a lot the people will point out things that especially when it comes to um things like interaction design and and polish and whatnot, people

internally will really poke at that stuff versus people externally tend to give you feedback often about like the you know does it work for their user flow. So it's it can just be like a very

flow. So it's it can just be like a very different altitude of feedback.

>> And let me ask you this while this thing is gen generating.

>> Yeah.

>> So so I I know anthropic like marketing PM everybody was like is basically using cloud code to also do stuff now that codework is internally available. How

how do you see different types of functions or like how are people using this versus cloud code or depends. Yeah,

I I think we're seeing just like overall like wider adoption of of co-work for similar use cases that some of like the the bleeding what I call like the

bleeding edge users of uh cloud code were like for example when we started working on co-work

um internal sales um sales employees just be sort of our inputs into what we should build and >> there were a few people who were like,

oh were like they're like die hard um cloud code users and they were using it to generate like leads lists and help them like um come up with scripts and whatnot for calls and and and it was

like it sort of blew my mind when I saw it because I I at that point didn't even comprehend that you could use cloud code for those things and uh those folks um they are they're basically all on

co-work now and then more of their sort of like their peers are actually using co-work as whereas before those people were like the bleeding edge users >> just because like it it actually is nice

to see a UI and >> I think soile I think that's that's what it that's honestly what it takes and and I think also part of it is u it's so close to the other work too that they're

doing um you know if they're already using chat um and they can still use cloud code too from this desk desktop app too so it just I think it it fits closer to their existing workflows um

than opening up the command line does.

>> Got it. Okay. Looks like it generates something. Yeah.

something. Yeah.

>> And it's generating stuff. Okay. Um

Yeah. So, it sounds like there is some there's some insights there. Okay. Cool.

Like I can take these insights um and there's like seven different themes here. Um they're different every week,

here. Um they're different every week, which is great. But I can I can basically tell it and say um you know like it's create this it's created this doc x for me. um which actually is like

it will be it's already like stored in a folder um on my computer which is great.

Um and so what I can also do is like I can spin off two parallel tasks. So here

I can say like okay cool like these are great insights um

but what are uh product features I should actually build from this?

>> Yeah. And then what I might also do in parallel is you know it's already attached to this folder that that this output has been dropped into. I could

say okay given the insights in this folder from the um insights

doc you made me uh turn this into a presentation I can share with the team this week at

our kickoff.

>> Mhm. So, in one in one thread it's like making me an artifact. The other one it's starting to actually like figure out what to do next. Um, and I think this is going to run for a bit too. But

ultimately what I can do from here is like start the design process essentially like it will give me options for um what the features I can create.

And from there I can even ask Claude to like create some wireframes for me for those given features. And that could be a really good place where it it just shows me a bunch of different options

and I can take those bring those with me to Figma and actually like start to flush them out or like or bring them with me to uh to cloud code and start to make them like real with our like real

design system components and just like get started from there. And then the other thing I can also do too is just like t take these and like turn them

both into scheduled tasks.

>> Yeah.

>> So exactly >> I can say actually I probably wouldn't start from here. I would once this is done running I would say okay like schedule this for me.

>> Um I don't want to disrupt while it's doing this thing. Uh but I would probably just like have it structure schedule this task for me to do it every Monday morning at like 10 a.m. or

something. And then that way I start every Monday morning at 10 am with this presentation and with like you know three different product ideas that I can use um and can kick up kick off the week

for and it just makes that sort of like iteration cycle um between feedback to actually creating something that's tangible or an idea that the team can look at just really it squishes that

time to be really tight and it helps us just iterate on the product quickly and make it much better quickly.

>> Yeah. It's all about iteration. It's all

about iteration. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Um,

>> yeah.

>> Yeah. And you know what? Like I I've also gotten so lazy like I always let AI take a first cut everything and then I just kind of react to it.

>> Yeah. So So if you actually want me to take those insights and try to draft like some sort of a feature priority from scratch, it'll take me like way longer than it used to take.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's how I operate too. Like even even when you sent me

too. Like even even when you sent me over like uh the notes for this podcast, I was just like I you know I I keep a folder of like all of my personal notes,

whether it's like things from one ones or things from um just like random thoughts and then I was just like cool like you know read my personal notes and like like come up with with speaking

points for for this podcast um and and and help me think about what I want to say here. And it I mean I I'm not going

say here. And it I mean I I'm not going to I'm not reading it word for word or anything, but it just helped me jog my mind in terms of like, oh cool, like these are the things that I I care about

and and and I didn't have to think that hard to to to to actually like uh or like helped evolve my thinking instead of just like being stuck there with the blank page problem.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, it's doing the thing where it's it's specking and telling me what the P 0's and P1's are. Um, you

know, so if I, let's say, like I want to build out the step-by-step progress, uh, task progress UI, I can just say like, uh, I like the step-by-step prog Oh, the

step-by-step progress UI idea. Um, make me an interactive

idea. Um, make me an interactive prototype of that. um of a few options

of this and do it in a scratchy wireframe style.

>> Scratchy.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Got it. Okay. Okay. So, so it has context of what co-work looks like now or >> uh this probably doesn't because I haven't set it up to have that.

>> Um but it will just I think based on like the context here and whatnot, it will it will try its best. And it it feels pretty isolated too. So I don't think I have to show it like okay this is what co-work looks like but I could I

could upload you know like an image um and also uh you know give it this like anthropic branded skill that we have um to to make it look more on theme.

>> Do you have any uh yeah like that's my next question like what kind of skills you use or do you have any personal skills >> uh for like making these docs and slide slides? Yeah. Uh we have a few internal

slides? Yeah. Uh we have a few internal skills that we use for some of these like docs and slides because um it helps brand them. I actually don't have like a

brand them. I actually don't have like a personal skill like library that I use.

Um I've been mostly borrowing from the ones that we have internally and using them for different purposes.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Cuz Yeah. So like for example, I have a skill like a writing skill >> that just tries to tell them not to like make AI slop words like just >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. you know, so that helps a little bit. But yeah.

bit. But yeah.

>> Yeah. I I've actually found that like now with this is probably not like the the best practice and the most efficient thing to do, but with um with co-work

like folders I have with all these like personal notes and whatnot, it's uh sort of like learning about me from those folders has been really useful to a in a

way to me where it's like it I I feel the need less for for things like memory and for skills because it sort of has this knowledge base about me already. Um

even though I think there's still a there's still a time and place for skills, but I personally for for the use cases that I've had have h felt like less of a need for them.

>> Oh, because it it just updates as a memory every day based on what your conversations.

>> Yeah. Or it's it's Yeah. And it's

basically like that is like a memory that almost that I I maintain of it because I'm taking notes in it all the time.

>> Yeah.

>> Got it.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. This is great. It looks like your presentation is ready. Just like a thought.

>> My presentation is ready. Let's see if it is. Oh, it is. Um, okay, cool. So,

it is. Oh, it is. Um, okay, cool. So,

it's made this presentation. It will

load a little bit. Um, yeah. So, I think you know with this you could take it into into Keynote or whatnot. Um, it did I didn't ask it to use anthropic skill

here, so it's sort of generic, but um I could. And then yeah, I think from here

could. And then yeah, I think from here I would take this and I would say like like let's schedule uh yeah, do this every morning or every Monday morning.

>> Mhm.

>> At 10:00 a.m.

>> Uh and and you can set up in a way where can you set up in a way where it actually shares with your team too, not just you like in Slack?

>> Yes. Like I could I I I I could set it up with my like Slack MCP and have it just like send it out. Um, basically, so it's like I think I would what? Yeah. So

I think it I also like how it asks me like clarifying questions here. So um it will what should this money let's say it rebuilds the deck.

>> Yeah. So it'll it'll do that. Um Yeah.

And then I could al ask it to um you know using the Slack MCP send it to a certain channel every every week.

>> So so when do you bring your team into this process or or like you know >> like Yeah. When when do you actually because you're iterating with AI and then you go iterate with your team and you kind of go back and forth or how do you

>> Yeah, I mean here like the the the actual like UXR interviews are like something that I pro I wouldn't you know like either the PM or the researcher on the team or somebody else would on the

team would actually do. Um and then we would and then through this you probably just like share the artifact and bring them in. Um and and then and then that

them in. Um and and then and then that this actually could become the the thing that the team operates off of, you know, like it's like, oh, you know, the the team, at least our team is pretty

bottoms up and and like democratic in that way. And so giving the way we

that way. And so giving the way we operate is like we just give people the insights and the goals and then everybody sort of uh like goes off and like makes prototypes and try stuff out

and ideas come from everywhere. And so

that's what the the handoff point is.

It's like it's like it's less of like oh like me as the designer I will come up with all the ideas but it's like hey here are you know anybody can do this.

It doesn't have just have to be the designer either. It's like here are the

designer either. It's like here are the insights. Here's what we're trying to do

insights. Here's what we're trying to do this month and how can we all get there? Like how can we all meet this goal together?

>> Yeah. Maybe just give like half task to to cloud to to create a PR for and then with the more complicated ones you can like try to handhold it.

>> Yeah. I mean, yeah. I I I think with this we we still wouldn't hand it like directly to Claude um to to to do all the stuff. Like there a lot of what we

the stuff. Like there a lot of what we do is I think we rely on ourselves for a lot of our own judgment and our ability to like curate and decide what to actually build and do >> and and like you know people talk about

taste and stuff and judgement online.

Like I don't know about you, but like I I feel like the way to build this stuff is is just to yeah like just just get the fire hose of product feedback from internally and externally >> and then you just kind of develop the sense of like what's broken that needs

to be fixed because just hearing feedback all day long. So you kind of know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So this one I think Yeah. You know it'll have created the these like basically kind of wireframey type things and >> Got it.

>> Yeah. And I think it's like it'll show you different options and stuff like that. And I think I am as a designer, I

that. And I think I am as a designer, I like to just like see a lot of options even if they're like not super high fidelity um versus like imagine them and and that helps me decide like what to actually do. So yeah, I think having

actually do. So yeah, I think having Claude just like come up with the options saves me like a step from just having to mock them up. Even though from here what I would probably do is like choose one of these directions and then

like start to like micro iterate on it or even take this and and make a prototype of it in code and then iterate from there.

>> Got it. Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Wow. It sounds like a fun job. Yeah.

>> It's a fun job.

>> Sounds fun. Let's switch topics a little bit and um >> let's talk about how co-work came to be, you know. So, so like um there there's a

you know. So, so like um there there's a bunch of stuff out there about how it came together in 10 days.

>> Yeah.

>> But but I think it's actually there was a lot of iteration before that too, right? Or like

right? Or like >> Yeah, that's a that is one of those things that I think got pulled out of a quote somewhere on on somebody else's

like uh uh interview or or press tour and I think everyone just anchored onto it like oh they made it in 10 days. Um

and the actual like the actual story is that co-work or this like direction of co-work has been something that uh the

company has been like thinking about or like wanting to do for honestly like basically ever since I joined Anthropic um about a year ago. like just some way

to help and and be sort of like a thinking partner for not because like since we already have this basically for code but for like all general knowledge

workers. Um and I think a lot of it has

workers. Um and I think a lot of it has just been like how do we execute on it and what is the right you know architecture for it and what is the right UX for it.

>> And so even throughout last year like there's been like lots of different prototypes some more ambitious than others. Um there's been a lot of

others. Um there's been a lot of different um like technical experimentations around like different agent harnesses that we've used. A few

that didn't pan out super well um before we landed here. And uh we've seen prototypes from people in our sort of like labs wing but also like prototypes

that we built on the product side of the house. Um, and I think about like a lot

house. Um, and I think about like a lot of these things it's just about, you know, if the idea keeps coming back and there's like energy each time, but then it's like the execution. Often it is just about like timing and execution

just like the lightning striking really well. So, um, when we did decide to ship

well. So, um, when we did decide to ship this, it was basically 10 days from like, oh yeah, we should ship this to like, okay, it's shipped kind of thing.

Um, and a lot of that was like building on the momentum of um, what we were seeing with Claude Code um, over the holiday break where it feels like over the holiday break, you know, everybody

finally had the time to try out Cloud Code because they've been hearing about it. They're like, "Okay, it sounds

it. They're like, "Okay, it sounds great. You know, there's all these AI

great. You know, there's all these AI tools. I don't have any time to try it."

tools. I don't have any time to try it."

But then for some reason, everybody tried it out. And then a lot of also like people with nontechnical use cases tried it out. like people were using it to um like do things like parse their

podcast transcripts or they were using it to um do all these like complex analyses and stuff like that. Um, and we were starting to see like even like early product market fit of like the

claw code basically like agent harness with nontechnical people and so we already had this sort of like working prototype of that internally um and we were slated to la to launch it a bit

later but I think that gave us the we were like this is the moment we need to meet it and um even if we don't have the perfect product yet um we should get something out there because we think that like the benefits and the

usefulness and our our moment to like capture this audience. It is right now.

Um, and so that's that's that that ensued a really hectic 10 days. Um, but

it it got us here and now that it's out here, it's been really really helpful for us to get the signal from people of how to you of how they use it and iterate on it and and keep making it better for people.

>> Yeah, you can learn way faster like you just I I guess the research preview is like the new beta.

Yeah, >> you can learn way faster. Yeah.

>> Okay. Okay. So basically, so if I understand there's even over the past year, there's a bunch of like people sharing prototypes in Slack internally and then >> you know people leaving feedback and then eventually >> you had a working prototype and then

because the market kind of demanded it, you kind of just like rush you kind of just like did a sprint >> to make it happen.

>> Yeah, basically. And like I we were originally going to launch this a few weeks later anyway, but it it felt like oh this is the moment and it sort of

forced us to scope it in a way that was a little bit more realistic. um and like a and and just like put energy behind it and staffing behind it.

>> And can you can you share some uh early iterations or any kind of like work in progress stuff?

>> Yeah. Um yeah, I pulled together a few screens of what it actually looks like or or some like design iterations to of it. There's obviously like a there's a

it. There's obviously like a there's a lot more but um this is what I can show you. Okay. Uh so uh we had like an

you. Okay. Uh so uh we had like an earlier prototype in the year. Um and

this is actually something that another designer and I collaborated on. Um but

we actually tried to make this sort of feel a little bit more like task oriented or like workflow oriented. Um,

and I think also we were really worried at that time like oh like claude is or people are not going to understand that

with a product like coowork that they're going to be able to you know do certain things or like make certain basically like outcomes like make a dashboard or

something and gather sources from a bunch of different um places. And so we actually made this the uh the um the UI much more structured and almost like you would like a workflow tool where it's

like hey add these things like this is these are the inputs and these are the outputs. Um, and then we made chat sort

outputs. Um, and then we made chat sort of secondary here. And I think when we did this, like one, Claude was like not great at sort of following the workflow exactly at that point given the the

technology that we had. And it felt like way too structured. Like I think seeing this UI on the left where you sort of have to fill it out and like add all these different sources.

>> It didn't feel good, you know?

>> Yeah. Too much work.

>> And it was just felt like a lot of work.

And it was like why do we have to do this in this day and age in 2025 when we can just like ask Claude to do something for us.

>> Got it.

>> Um and so that was one iteration that was actually a part of like a different prototype.

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. Got it.

>> Um and then we originally were just like we eventually were like okay cool like it's going to be a chat box. Um and we tried to do a thing where we guided people towards like more specific

outcomes like whether it was like analysis or documents. Um, and we built this like this working prototype that I wish I had a screenshot of where each of these like when you clicked into them,

they almost had like different dials for you to like adjust the length of the document or I see or or you know like the type of document like memo, presentation, whatever. Um, and that

presentation, whatever. Um, and that felt like really overwhelming as well, I think. Um, and so a big thing we were

think. Um, and so a big thing we were trying to balance with a lot of these explorations was like how prescriptive of the use cases are we versus like free form like a chat box.

>> Got it.

>> Um, and then the the what we actually ended up shipping with just a few weeks ago, a few months ago, um, was something like this, uh, where again we we did have this like sort of like almost

wizard-like experience where you'd click through and it' be like, oh, create a doc, make it three to five pages, etc., etc. Um, and we also just showed a bunch

of the UI up front because we wanted it to feel like really differentiated from chat. Um, but then I think when you come

chat. Um, but then I think when you come here, it just felt like there was a lot of competing visual elements. Um, and so over time like we we stripped most of

this back. Um, and and and we went away

this back. Um, and and and we went away from this actually like really opinionated UI because uh it was actually like not helpful to show all these things. Um, and so yeah,

it's this constant balance of like how much do we tell people how to use what to use it for versus like leave it really free form for them. Um, and so now actually like if you look at the

current UI, which I'm just going to switch if you look at the current UI, yeah, like a lot of it is really peeled back. Um, we don't have we don't we're

back. Um, we don't have we don't we're not showing these like heavy sidebars.

Um, and it feels more like the traditional like sort of chat box, but we we sort of have we've reformatted the homepage to feel more almost like it's

Claude's active to-do list. Um, so here I only have like one active task, but you know, at any given time I could have like many more, you know, like if if I'm really asking Claude to do stuff or if

I've like, you know, given Cloud a bunch of tasks and come back, I'll have a bunch of these where it'll be like, okay, there's an extra message. Um, or I could review this. And here I can actually just like approve and triage

these tasks. So it's like, yeah, let's

these tasks. So it's like, yeah, let's schedule that. Um, and then I I'll see

schedule that. Um, and then I I'll see my schedule tasks here. And the idea is that it yeah, it just feels much more like a shared to-do list between you and Claude as opposed to this chat box with

like a bunch of overwhelming suggestions and and UI to sort of show you how to use it.

>> Got it.

>> Yeah, >> that that's awesome. That's awesome. And

and maybe in the future it can be like uh you know like you have like multiple agents and they can have like a treddle board. You can you can like move tasks

board. You can you can like move tasks around and stuff like that. you like.

>> Yeah. I mean, maybe, >> maybe. Yeah. Maybe by the time this

>> maybe. Yeah. Maybe by the time this podcast come out, you have updated the UI again.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe. Yeah. But I

think that also shows hopefully that shows too like the UI looked so different just like, you know, maybe like four or five weeks ago and and now it's like we're constantly learning like

what's working and isn't working, but we're also learning best about how to like display this technology to people.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's really interesting like um for clock code like I I I've been leaving I've been like tweeting some feedback about like because there's so many different like slash commands and stuff that you can just like learn it. It's almost like

it's almost like uh going to Costco to to do like a treasure hunt. Like you

never know what you find, >> but like but like it's not very beginner friendly, right? It's it's just like

friendly, right? It's it's just like it's like a game where you like learn more and more and you kind of master it.

I think maybe for co-workers trying to find the middle ground between between the regular chat and the clock code so that it's not like all the things are hidden like but but like you know you try to guide people in some way.

>> Yeah. I mean we you're still able to use slash commands in co-work but they're not like the primary way in which you interact. And I think the way that at

interact. And I think the way that at least I personally think about it is you know at least co-work is also a tool for professionals and um we sort of see a

bunch of people use it in very power usery ways and there are already power users of it. So a lot of people will be motivated to learn much more complex

capabilities right like they will be willing to create their own skills share them with their team etc. and also want shorthand, you know, commands for

things. But most all these things should

things. But most all these things should be possible without having to do that learning as well. Um, and and and those sort of commands should be a secondary way to interact with Claude and and and

you shouldn't have to know all the commands in order to use it.

>> Yeah, that that makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. All right. Just a couple closing qu questions, I guess. Um, so um how does uh planning work at Anthropic? It

seems like a pretty chaotic place. Like

do do you guys do um do you guys do like annual planning and like you know setting goals and stuff or is it more just like prototyping and trying it out?

>> Uh I mean it also changes every time we do planning. Like I feel like every time

do planning. Like I feel like every time we've done it it's been very different.

>> Um on the team that I am on we do monthly planning. We we just we have a

monthly planning. We we just we have a spreadsheet and it I think it at least in in the co-work section there's maybe like max like 12 things in that list and it's really truly our P zeros and then

for each of them they just have one single DRRi and it's like and then we just come back each week and we're like are we on track or not? Um there is some

amount of like quarterly or half planning that we'll do where I think usually one of the leads will be like hey this is like generally where I think we should go um and these are the things

that we should work on but it's not so structured where it's like we absolutely have to do these things and these are the projects. It's sort of like just

the projects. It's sort of like just giving everyone a picture of how things might fit together. Um

>> okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So it's pretty loose.

>> It's pretty loose, right? Yeah, you

know, you know that that that's the funny thing I find because like you know, Anthropic is one of the most innovative companies, but I find at the most innovative companies is less about trying to do this annual planning theater and more just about like iterating and like learning from the

users like like do do you still make like um like at some point in your career probably made like a Northstar vision deck or something, right? Like

like do you think that stuff is useful?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I like I think we did I made a Northstar vision deck maybe last year. Um

>> yeah, >> so we >> I think there is still room for these visions in that >> they point people towards something and make create clarity around what we're

going to do. I think given though where at least I work, you know, like we this technology like literally changes all the time and there's new models all the time and the the rate at which new

models is coming out is like just faster and faster basically. Um, I think there's no such thing as like, yeah, a a one-year vision. Um, let alone a two or

one-year vision. Um, let alone a two or five year vision for us because there's so much that's unknown out there. Um,

but what actually is helpful still is like pointing people towards the same direction, especially when like anyone can build anything. So, what I think about as visions now is just more like

yeah, it's like three maybe maximum six months, but a vision can be it can be a document. Um, I think it's more helpful

document. Um, I think it's more helpful when it is visual. So, I do think this is like where design still has like a ton of power is being able to piece things together and make it coherent in

a story for that period of time. But, it

can also be a prototype. Um, like it doesn't need to be like, yeah, this like deck that's static. It can be a prototype that just sort of helps us. I

think often what what what it helps us do is like we often have, you know, five teams working on something like very similar or things that collide um or might feel duplicative. And what design

can really do is like curate and help bring cohesion to those ideas and show us a path towards like making that an ideal experience as opposed to five disparate ones.

>> Yeah, that that makes sense. That makes

sense. And and how about like with um do you guys have like reviews of AMI and like for folks like that? Like is there like formal reviews or they're also like playing with the prototypes too?

>> Uh no we do still have reviews. Uh I we don't have them for you know I've been at companies where we have them for like every single feature and whatnot. Um it

happens for sort of like bigger you know higher priority projects. Okay.

>> Um but it doesn't feel like it is it is a big >> sort of like thing you have to prepare for and spend so much time on. Um, it's

mostly for that visibility and for that feedback. And if there's things that

feedback. And if there's things that sort of cross are our are big and have like big companywide implications, we we'll have those reviews. Yeah.

>> Got it. Okay. Well, I mean, do you have any closing words of advice for designers who maybe like, you know, they kind of feel like the ground is shifting under their feet? Like should they start like submitting PRs or like what what

what should designers do?

>> Yeah. I mean, if you feel like the ground is shifting beneath your feet, it's because it is, you know, it's because it is. Um, and I think at this

point, you have to just accept that, you know, and and then and sort of adapt to it and just be really open towards like questioning the way that we work

already. Um I I think it's it's coming

already. Um I I think it's it's coming for it's coming for designers right now and I think we're feeling it today a lot because a lot of like the roles around us have changed already and we're like

the second tier effect for it. But also

I think the the tooling for us is also changing. Um and whenever I feel sort of

changing. Um and whenever I feel sort of like sometimes I am like sort of threatened. I'm like oh my gosh my job

threatened. I'm like oh my gosh my job is change is changing a lot. Like I I people don't value me in the same ways that I I used to be valued. But then I think about like my engineering peers and how much that they have already

adapted towards how much their job has changed and how like valiantly they've they've they've gotten through it and how much they are still they're they're producing even better and more work

today. And so I look at them as

today. And so I look at them as inspiration like oh like if if all these people that I really respect can do it and do it in a way with such humility then I can too. Um and and and I sort of

see them as a model for like what's coming next for me.

>> Yeah. in some ways you get rid of this a lot of like mundane and busy work like moving boxes around that you don't have to do anymore, right? Like hope so you can actually focus on higher level thinking and you know that kind of work.

>> Yeah. Or just producing more work too, you know, like I I think I I think about how much my engineers are capable of of right now and I'm like yeah that's that's wild. Like they're they're

that's wild. Like they're they're they're creating entire features in days not weeks these days. So yeah.

>> Yeah. But the funny thing is you don't actually get more free time. You

actually work harder.

I mean, like, it's because I think we're all really ambitious and we like it's like a high. You're like, "Oh my gosh, I can get so much done now and I and I don't have to do the stuff that I didn't

like doing before and so >> let me do more, you know?"

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. No, that that's good. That makes

more job more fun.

>> Okay. Well, well, thanks so much, Jenny.

This is awesome. Awesome. I feel like we've been talking online for a lot and uh I finally got to talk to you. Yeah.

It's been great. It's been great to have this conversation.