Coferment? Infused? Anaerobic? Processing and Effects on Flavor ft. Christopher Feran

Gisha village natural typical mehor carbonic masseration. Gisha white honey

carbonic masseration. Gisha white honey Ethiopia washed Gisha green tip washed anorobic 72 hours. What the freak do all does all this mean? It would be really

helpful if we had someone that was uh you know an expert in this field. So you

know sometimes I can do a little bit of magic. So we'll see if this happens. I'm

magic. So we'll see if this happens. I'm

going to throw this box in the air and hopefully someone will appear. Let's do

this.

Oh my god, look at that. We've got

Christopher Faren here who is the owner of Aviary. So, in today's video, we're

of Aviary. So, in today's video, we're going to do some fun stuff. We're going

to talk about posth harvest processing.

This has been the number one requested video once I had this legend on camera with me. So, I'd give you a brief

with me. So, I'd give you a brief introduction of Chris. He runs Avary which is a roaster that he started about year a year and a half ago where it's largely subscription-based and um he's able to do some really important things

in his sourcing of coffee in order to make these coffees available. He is a consultant. His labor is contracted out

consultant. His labor is contracted out by roaries and the like to go and consult buy green coffee, help maintain their blend components. He has an incredible blog which I'll link below

where he does some incredible things. If

you're into home roasting, for instance, he has loads of blogs on sample roasters. He's in the same way that I

roasters. He's in the same way that I obsess over grinders, his obsession is sample roasters. And I'm not sure anyone

sample roasters. And I'm not sure anyone in the world knows more than he does about it. In addition to that, he takes

about it. In addition to that, he takes data from all the green coffee samples he cups from the UV, the electroconductivity, the moisture content, the density, the screen sizing of it. It's quite impressive. And there

of it. It's quite impressive. And there

are few people out there with the knowledge set he has. So, I'm excited to bring him on today. Welcome, Chris.

Thank you. We know that there's anorobic which is a big buzz word but that can mean a million different things and it has different contexts. We know the terms like lactic and acetic. We know

carbonic masseration. So if there was an intuitive way to kind of go through what each of these processes do and how they relate and then most importantly how it affects cut profile. Um if there's like

a specific way you would want to kind of teach about that. I think we'd all love that.

Yeah. I I think classically we would take the taxonomy and and the decision tree would start with what are you going to do with the cherry and so we would say either we pulp it or we don't pulp

it. Okay. And so dry and wet is is how

it. Okay. And so dry and wet is is how we look at it. And now of course we can do things with the cherry before which that didn't used to happen. It used to be a standard that coffee once it was picked it had to be processed within 24

hours.

Okay. So and when he's saying pulp by the way for people who don't know that's literally popping the seed out of the flesh. So we have a coffee cherry and

flesh. So we have a coffee cherry and literally pulping it is pushing out of that and doing that is wet whereas dry would be inside the cherry itself.

Yeah. And it you know we can say it's a wet process and it doesn't have to involve water at all.

Okay.

Which is kind of confusing for people that but we do conflate wet and washed together but technically washed is a type of wet processing.

So would honey also be a wet process?

Yes. Yes it would.

So because you're you're pulping it and then you're letting it just dry and ferment in the honeycoated parchment.

That's right. Whatever you did to the cherry before, if you pulped it, it's a wet process.

Okay. So, we have wet and dry are the two kind of big features. That's right.

And you're saying now there are things we can do even before the dry process begins.

That's right.

Which would be what?

We can take that cherry and we can do what they're calling an oxidized process. So, or an aerobic process,

process. So, or an aerobic process, which just means that the coffee is somehow in the air. Okay?

Uh it can be in in an open barrel. It

can be laid out flat in a tray. uh for

some amount of time you'll see the oxidation occur. The cherry will become

oxidation occur. The cherry will become darker. It'll kind of start to break

darker. It'll kind of start to break down. You get some enzyatic activity

down. You get some enzyatic activity that occurs and you could just take it from there and then dry it or pulp it or you could take it and you could put it in a barrel and close the lid,

put an air lock on there and then it's an anorobic environment. Okay.

Which is how that comes into play.

So when we talk anorobic versus aerobic, that's referring to pre-drying.

It can. Okay.

Yes. Most commonly.

Okay. Most commonly that's pre-rying.

And drying would refer to actually putting it on a raised bed or on a concrete patio.

Yes.

Okay. Other than that, if it's indoors or in a climate controlled area, that would be pre-rying. So, is there a way to do anorobic after or during drying and after?

Yeah. I mean, let's say you take it through whatever steps you did before.

You're drying the coffee. You dry it to a certain point, maybe 50% moisture, something like that, 20% moisture, and then you take it from the beds, and then you put it back in a tank.

Okay? So you're just essentially stopping the drying process and allowing it to continue doing something based off of anorobic or open with aerobic.

Sure. I mean the most classical example of this was accidental really which was in Kenya. They had holding pens for

in Kenya. They had holding pens for their coffee because they needed to make more space in the drying drying area.

And so they would let it dry down to about 20 25% put it in the pen for about a week and then dry it again.

So because it's not done they have to continue the fermentation. And the way they do this, they take it away and put it in a pin. And that is kind of how that started accidentally in Kenya.

That's right. Okay.

Yeah. And now you have people of course doing it on purpose.

What would that process be called in Kenya?

Washed.

So that's just the typ that's a typical washed in Kenya.

That's right.

So when we hear Kenya washed being practiced elsewhere, what that largely means is what most people mean is that it underos two stages of fermentation uh before it's washed and dried.

Okay? So it'll you'll have an initial fermentation which is usually submerged.

The coffee will be washed. Okay. And

then it'll be submerged again.

However, when people call it Kenya washed, they're referring to the fermentation.

They're referring to the fermentation which is double fermentation.

Yes.

Prior to being washed or dried, right? Washed isn't washed.

right? Washed isn't washed.

Washed isn't washed.

That's right.

How would you break down washed? Trying

to explain to someone that washed is not washed.

Yeah. I mean it it's one of those things where you you go all over Colombia and people watch how they tra or practice the Lovato process how they traditionally do it and it varies from one village to the next based on

equipment based on their how long they've been doing it whatever. So I

think it's helpful to understand uh the different variables that you might play with. So for example fermentation time

with. So for example fermentation time uh fermentation environment is it underwater or is it dry?

Is it in a barrel with a closed top or an open top? Uh, and then from there it's are you washing it? Are you not?

How would you paint that picture of the most the most kind of classic understanding of washed?

I don't know. It depends when you came up in the industry. Let's let's just take this. This is a your traditional

take this. This is a your traditional washed Ethiopian. Okay.

washed Ethiopian. Okay.

It's a big factory like you'd see in uh Kenya with a McKinnon disc pulper.

So it removes the flesh from the seed and then you have this sticky mucelage layer on the outside. So it has to go and ferment. Uh, so once the you you rub

and ferment. Uh, so once the you you rub it together and the mucelage starts to rub off, it sounds like gravel.

Then you wash the coffee. It'll take

some amount of time depending on how warm it is. Could be anywhere from 12 hours if you're somewhere hot like El Salvador to 48 hours if you're somewhere cooler.

And where is that mucelage covered coffee sitting as it's drying out as as it's fermenting?

Fermenting. Yeah.

Uh, so typically it would be a in large concrete tanks. Sometimes they're tiled,

concrete tanks. Sometimes they're tiled, but they're just open like swimming pools and it's just dry. There's no water in it.

Uh in in Ethiopia, yes, there is.

Okay. They put water in it.

Yeah. Burundi, no. Ethiopia, yes. Kenya,

yes. Yeah. Every country has its own sort of So, would that be considered washing the the the the the parchment or washing the the seeds themselves or is the washing happening afterwards?

Whenever they're cleaning it up, the washing happens over the seeds and the idea is to separate that mucelage from the seed. in Burundi where you say it's dry when the washing comes after it's in the

tile tub or the concrete then add water.

They add water into the tubu and then they let it release.

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Agitate with a paddle.

Agitate with towel then let it release and that's the washing. So it's a much quicker washing than in Kenya which is submerged in water.

Yes.

Would that be considered anorobic since it's underwater?

Technically no because there is available oxygen.

Okay.

Yeah.

So and all of the seeds there are fully submerged.

Yes.

Okay. Whereas Burundi fully dry until the very end when they're ready to wash it out.

Yeah. And then they they'll add water.

Then they'll add water. How does that differ from wash processes throughout like Central South America?

A lot of them are modeled after those same style of factories. So you'll see many of these processes in in Guatemala and El Salvador, places like that. But

Colombia and Panama and places that are doing these really innovative methods, they can flip the script entirely.

Okay. So you'll you'll see intentional holding of cherry uh to to create a different cup profile or change something about the process. You'll see

uh honey processes where they didn't exist before. Um and it really just

exist before. Um and it really just depends on on the scale of of the producer and the equipment that they're working with.

I remember once I had a washed Ethiopian I was like this is not a washed coffee.

This is faking natural. But as we now know, washed does not mean just pulped, put in, washed off, done. It could be

fermented for 108 hours and it's still washed if it was pulped and then washed after.

Right.

Yeah. Maybe if you had a thousand small holders bringing cherry to a collection station, maybe it rained the day before so that cherry oxidized.

Oh, that there. I mean, that's a great point. Definitely

point. Definitely what you have noticed that kind of onset this trend of varying processes and kind of where you see its roots taking place or where they took place.

Yeah, I mean classically we we always talked about Washington natural, right?

And then honey process became invogue about 10 years ago I would say. They've

been around longer than that. But I

think that what is happening in the industry is that a lot of newer coffee drinkers, newer baristas are chasing that sort of aha moment that we probably had with like a big blueberry,

right? And so

right? And so as those have gone out of vogue or become less available, we're starting to see all of these new novel techniques which produce novel cups. I know I read

in a research paper some six seven years ago that 60% of the um the cup quality is related directly to processing. Is

this something that you have also kind of noticed in your experience?

I don't know. I I I think it's a really tough thing to ascribe a certain percentage to. It's almost gestalt in a

percentage to. It's almost gestalt in a way like you know the variety has a huge impact on the cup and there's a reason that we love geisha or whatever. And

then of course processing can have a very transformative impact. And then we polish it in the roast.

Okay. Before we got to the more experimental things now, we got into red, yellow, black honey. And I was always I was always told that it was leaving a certain amount of mucelage intact. But it never made sense to me

intact. But it never made sense to me how you could do that.

So what is the deal with black, yellow, red honey?

So if you think about a disc pulper like burrs, right? You have two discs. Uh, in

burrs, right? You have two discs. Uh, in

this case, you've got it spinning and you can adjust the distance.

And so when you adjust the distance, you're removing a certain amount of miselage or you're just removing that that cherry skin. And so h how it rubs and that friction will determine if you

left 20% 10% 80% of the miselage.

So it's essentially a rough guesstimate.

Yeah.

And so there are going to be in there there will be blacks even if it's a red honey and there's going to be yellows even if it's a black honey. Yes. because

it's not a it's even more guess work because cherries are a different sizes.

Yes, they are.

So if you have a an aperture that all of them have to fit in and some are this big, some are this big, you're going to it's essentially just honey.

That's right.

So it's it's almost like a moot point to call it black or yellow or red.

You can somewhat control it.

Okay.

Yeah. Uh so a a lot of the time when when people are beginning to play with honeys, the first one will be a black honey and it's just because they haven't figured out how to how to adjust it yet.

Okay, that makes sense. Where has been the most I guess innovation you've seen in processing in recent years that don't yet include adding other things into the process like co- fermentation or

infusion? Where do you where do you see

infusion? Where do you where do you see kind of the most innovation um within this?

Where in the world or where in conceptually?

Conceptually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think temperature control is is definitely one of the the variables that people now understand that you can modulate the the microbial population in your fermentation.

Okay.

Just through temperature control.

So, and and it's important to control microbial microbial fermentation because the bacteria that's produced will directly affect the fermentation which directly affects the flavor.

Yeah. And then do you want bacteria or do you want yeast?

Both of them will affect a different completely different fermentation onto the coffee itself.

Yeah. You mentioned lactic and acetic.

So those are two different families of bacteria. One produces lactic acid

bacteria. One produces lactic acid bacteria. Lactic acid, one produces

bacteria. Lactic acid, one produces acetic acid.

Sure.

Uh and they live in different environments. So uh one is prefers a

environments. So uh one is prefers a different temperature than the other.

And so you can adjust your environment to kind of advantage the microbe that you want.

These styles of fermentation like lactic, glycosic, like what people call carbonic meration, these are all things done prior to the dry or the wet.

process. So, this is what So, this is the full cherry and like with lactic, they'll put it into a tub with sealed off and they're controlling temperature and I guess the humidity of what's going on in there.

Yeah. Some people will add salt and then after that's when they're deeppulping and then letting it dry out and washing it.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You can also you can also do it during the uh after the pulping phase.

Okay. So that's becoming increasingly common with with washed coffees is to after you pulp hold it in an anorobic environment for some amount of time.

And so would that be considered washed than anorobic or wash anorobic or we don't really have a good way to describe this. That's the problem. We

describe this. That's the problem. We

have we have this right here which is a washed anorobic 72 hours. So we we we have some context that there was 72 hours of fermentation.

Okay.

We don't know when that anorobic stage occurred. It could have been as cherry.

occurred. It could have been as cherry.

It could have been in pulping. It's very

difficult and imprecise to use language to talk about these things.

This is either anorobic cherries in a barrel or it's anorobic mucelage covered parchment or seeds that has been covered anorobically or both.

How would that work?

36 plus 36 is Yeah, that's fair. So,

usually when they're they're referring to an hour number though, they're referring to one.

So, non-stop. Yeah. Yeah.

Wet can be anything that is um pulped first and then we have the processing going on. Whereas dry is referring to

going on. Whereas dry is referring to prep and cherry.

Dried and cherry. Fermentation, although

it does refer to the whole processing in general, is typically mostly focused on either the cherry or the pulp.

Either the cherry or the pulp. So the

wet or the dry.

Honeys are technically wet even though we're still drying it out on a patio.

Washed are wet as well. So wet doesn't necessarily mean washed. Now when it comes to anorobic or aerobic, this can happen pre or post pulping. That's

right.

It can happen in a barrel with it full cherry or it can be taken away from the post pulp facility and reput some sort of barrel. Yes.

of barrel. Yes.

Okay. Hit that like and subscribe if you enjoy the content, if you enjoy what we're doing. And give a big like and a

we're doing. And give a big like and a shout out to Christopher down below. We

got to talk about floaters real quick.

There are ways during the processing that you can improve the potential outcome of the cup. And that would be floaters. Go ahead. Give us what are

floaters. Go ahead. Give us what are floaters?

Yeah. So, when the cherry comes in, essentially you just put it in water and the ones that are less dense, which could be malformed or rotten, they float to the top. So, you can skim them. You

can do the same thing in parchment, too.

Okay. And how can you optimize this uh easy technique of just looking and getting rid of uh floaters throughout the process?

Using water is super helpful, not only for for moving the material around, but because the stuff that's less dense floats. So, float and cherry. Then after

floats. So, float and cherry. Then after

pulping, float in parchment or mucelage, whatever. Uh and then you can continue

whatever. Uh and then you can continue to sort through the entire process.

So there are ways to do a few different areas of quality improvement just based off of a simple floating test.

That's right. Well, and if you're adding water to the parchment coffee, it's going to even out the entire lot. So

it's going to redistribute all the the molecules that are you created in the cherry. So rather than having one bean

cherry. So rather than having one bean is like this, one bean is like this one, it all evens out.

And it can do that pretty quickly.

Pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. And about my my studies have shown 16 to 18 hours.

And would that be considered part of the fermentation like here on 72hour or would that would just be considered part of the washing process?

Well, this is so specific as to be very vague. So, I'm not sure.

vague. So, I'm not sure.

Okay.

But would you normally count those 18 hours in your fermentation t?

I would. Yes.

You would? Yes. Okay. So, if this wasn't including it, you would do 90 hours or something. Do need to use some water

something. Do need to use some water which has water waste potential. Sure.

And but the coffee that is removed gets sold to the local market or whatever. So

that's that's a valuable good too.

That's absolutely right. Uh and then also you've written about wash processes on your uh blog talking about potential waste and potential sustainability. So

if you're interested in that because there are lots of fears of washed coffees being um need to made obsolete due to the amount of water that's used, check out his blog. He talks a lot about

that.

whenever we are looking into this and and you said it's more increasingly happening that people do anorobic maybe post-pulping is there a difference in uh like

cleanliness I hate using that term but cleanliness if you were to do an anorobic or some sort of processing in cherry versus post-pulping it depends on your level of control if

there are some heruristics you can say that okay if there is a long cherry fermentation it is likely to produce uh a heavier cup with more fruit tones that

can be somewhat boozy if it's not controlled and that's in in the actual flesh.

Yes. In the cherry when you do it in after pulping, what it does is it it can encourage lactic acid bacteria. So it

can create more brightness.

Okay.

Mhm.

So there's less uh unpredictability post-pulping.

Yes.

Yes. I mean the entire idea of of pulping coffee was to reduce risk.

Okay. and we lets us dry faster and it reduces the amount of a ferment defect that we we used to encounter.

How would you describe a ferment defect?

Oh, booze funk can be slightly phenolic.

Okay. And what how does that typically occur? Just from excessive moisture over

occur? Just from excessive moisture over time and allowing too much bacterial or yeast growth.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's controlled rot, right? Fermentation. And so we're we're

right? Fermentation. And so we're we're getting the ones that produce off flavor compounds. Okay. Rather than the ones

compounds. Okay. Rather than the ones that we want.

Moving over to the buzzword uh carbonic meration.

describe that in wine.

Yeah.

And then how it has been borrowed into coffee and what it actually means.

Yeah. So it it's this idea that it's very popular in Bojlet uh where they take the whole grape and they ferment the grape intact rather than crushing it for some amount of time.

Okay.

Um I think it's two days. I'm not a wine maker.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh but that idea has been adopted and brought into coffee. He was very famously popularized by uh Sasha Cesic for his WBC routine.

And it's the same idea of taking the cherry and putting it in a container, flushing that headsp space with carbon dioxide.

Okay.

And then fermenting it in that environment as a whole cherry.

So what does flushing with carbon dioxide do?

It will in theory expel all of your oxygen and so it will help you select only those microbes that you want. uh

and that will eliminate a lot of yeast.

It will eliminate a lot of uh acetic acid bacteria.

Okay. It seems to be a pretty simple trend to follow is we either are doing the intense fermentation pre-pulping and then it just goes through a washed or it's doing it post-pulping then it goes through a washed.

Yeah.

And that's pretty much how the processing is working. It's just the variables are changed based off of the temperature, humidity, the uh microbes you're wanting to grow and the specific fermentation you're wanting to be

occurred.

Mhm. And then I guess the amount of control over that is largely dependent on your capability to foresee the changes that will be occurring and and

so with full cherry it's harder to foresee those changes. Postpuling it's

much easier to see the changes because there's a lot less deviations.

Yeah.

Okay. That's right.

Cool. What I would love to hear you talk about is the newest fad and processing co-ermentation infused coffees and then we can also

maybe start with like yeast manipulation because that that does a ton and a lot of people who are accused of co-ermentation will say no it's yeast manipulation. So if you can maybe start

manipulation. So if you can maybe start with that what that actually means.

You have like I've talked about you have two dominant types of microbes that are present in a fermentation. You've got

bacteria and you've got yeast. And just

as a short hand, bacteria are the ones that produce acidity and yeast are the ones that produce aromomas. The types of aromomas that we talk about are called ers. We can select different types of

ers. We can select different types of yeast that will produce these different types of esters and intentionally inoculate a coffee fermentation to produce those sensory aromatics.

Okay.

Um and those can be commercial yeast which you buy from a wine distributor whatever or you can culture them and do a mustto.

Okay. Both are being practiced across the world.

You're taking yeast that's not necessarily naturally occurring in the coffee or it is just little bit small. It's like how we produce creatine but we take creatine as a substance. Right.

a substance. Right.

Got it.

As we were talking about, right? It's

about the same thing. So you're taking it that might be in tiny amounts but you want to amplify it. So you inoculate your yeast or you you know um get yeast from commercially, you know, viable

products. Then you add it to the coffee

products. Then you add it to the coffee in order to intensify that yeast reaction on the coffee.

Yeah. I mean, you're out competing every other microbe and so you're selecting that specific one for most of the fermentation. The others are still

fermentation. The others are still there, but that one is dominating.

So that is largely what people are doing with the um the inoculating of their coffees. They're they're essentially

coffees. They're they're essentially spiking it with extra of whatever may already be there or may not in order to I guess focus on the growth of that yeast.

Right. Right. which will in turn give a big change to the cut profile as regards esters. Yeah. And and some of the more

esters. Yeah. And and some of the more sophisticated uses of this will do what's called sequential inoculation. So

you'll have either nothing at the start to allow native microbes to come in and then you'll finish with pitching the yeast or you'll do two or three in sequence.

This though is kind of like the most I guess innocuous of the uh spiking copies. So the next would be something

copies. So the next would be something like infusion.

Yeah, I would say yeast is at this point not controversial because it exists naturally fermentation. You're just kind

naturally fermentation. You're just kind of increasing the dose.

Yeah. Yeah. And I before we get to infusion, I would I would say let's talk about co-erments because you can have a similar phenomena where you add, for example, pineapple to a fermentation tank and the coffee may or may not end

up tasting like the thing that you put it with because you're doing two things. Yes,

you're introducing those those fruits and those aromatics may transfer somewhat, but you're also introducing a different population of yeast and sugar and acidity. So, you're almost priming

and acidity. So, you're almost priming the pump for that fermentation. Okay?

Yeah. So, that happens a lot with co- fermentss, but there are some specific uh uh molecules that can diffuse into the coffee, and those are the ones that I think that we've we've all had that are like grape soda.

Yeah. Like the flavor kind of seeping into it. Kind of like if you were to

into it. Kind of like if you were to take green coffee, put into a bourbon barrel, you're going to taste the bourbon due to the seeping in of what's in the barrel.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I had one that was limes. Uh and I I didn't like it.

was limes. Uh and I I didn't like it.

Was it wasn't for me, but it definitely had an effect. It's like it's like a baby infusion kind of but it may not always transfer.

Yeah. It's it's it's a masseration, right? It's this is very popular in

right? It's this is very popular in wine. It's very popular in beer right

wine. It's very popular in beer right now. So, it's not surprised that of

now. So, it's not surprised that of course it made it coffee. Yeah. Sure.

So, then we get from uh the inoculative type of situation to the co- fermentation now infusion.

Now infusion. Yeah. And there are some folks like Sebastian. He this this one's not uh an infusion, but he does intentionally produce infused coffees.

uh had a watermelon uh infusion from him. Okay. Which is really really

him. Okay. Which is really really fascinating. Uh so it's food grade

fascinating. Uh so it's food grade flavor oils, okay, that they add to dried coffee um or to coffee as it's drying and then it preserves those flavors and it

so essentially the oils seep into the seed.

Mhm.

And then it just preserves it as uh as an external property inside the seed that's not affecting necessarily the chemistry of the seed, but it's there as a byproduct.

Right? So when you roast it, it's there just as just as much as the properties that were fermented into the coffee during its exterior fermentation process or even more so.

Or even more so.

Some of them are very intense and and that's the reason that they're popular.

Let's say it's a a washed infus a washed infusion. So they would do their normal

infusion. So they would do their normal pulp. They'll do like 72 hours in a

pulp. They'll do like 72 hours in a tank. They add the water. They wash it

tank. They add the water. They wash it however it is wherever it's at. Um, so

they do the full washing and then when it's drying, that's when they'll add most most commonly. Yeah. During the

drying and they could even do it just scenting it like I've I've seen lemongrass under under drying beds for example or bergamont peel things like that.

Okay. And so that would be infusion.

That's not co- fermentation.

Correct.

There wouldn't be any fermentation going on between the bergamont and the ideally not. No,

ideally not. No, but there could be.

There could be.

Whenever we're talking infusion, it's largely do happening during drying.

Yeah. And it's largely an addition of some sort of product.

Yeah. And and that's why people don't like it. They they they look down on

like it. They they they look down on these things. They see them as being

these things. They see them as being impure or cheating. They're worried

about like taking non-commercial grades and adding these flavors and selling them for a high price. I'm like, why is that a problem?

Yeah.

It is kind of funny though because, you know, when we get into coffee or I guess in the US at least, you grow up and you know your mom's drinking the hazelnut coffee which is essentially an infusion.

Exactly.

And then we get away from it. We think

that's, you know, spawn of Satan. Then

we get to where we're now infusing coffees and it's, you know, it's kind of a a mind rattler. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Of course. Instead of taking, you know, chemicals that were made in off the New Jersey Turnpike and adding them to roasted coffee, we're keeping that value at Origin.

Yeah. Exactly.

So I I I think there is a huge value to it and obviously people want those coffees. I don't buy them. Yeah.

coffees. I don't buy them. Yeah.

But that's my prerogative from your observation. So we can be very clear about it. From your observation and your connections with producers that you have worked with, which is a small amount comparatively speaking to a world

of producers, what would you say is kind of a rough consensus as how producers are viewing this?

Like if they're not, if they're not practicing, so obviously if they're practicing, they think it's great. But

people who aren't practicing it, what would you say is kind of a producer consensus that you have noticed?

Yeah, they split into two camps. Uh

there are those that are like infusion curious and they see it as something that might be able to get more value for their coffee and then you have the folks who are like allergic to it and you know

they they wear the sticker and they they have their little brigade. So yeah it it's really stratified into two camps.

I'm curious what your thought is on uh if potentially the market begins demanding this and producers feel a pressure but they're not equipped to be able to respond to that pressure.

Then we're in the same scenario we've been in for the last 20 years with with specialty buyers going visiting origin being, hey, why don't you have raised beds? Hey, why don't you have this? Why

beds? Hey, why don't you have this? Why

don't you produce honeys or naturals?

It's exactly the same scenario.

People are are constantly having to try things at the fear of people recanting or reneging on contracts.

Yeah. And and my experience is that uh a lot of producers particularly the ones who are least advantaged in in in the value stream are not going to take risks like that that will potentially jeopardize their

harvest. They might not have access to

harvest. They might not have access to those buyers or those markets that are open to those coffees and so they're going to do what is most efficient and what they know how to do. specifically

co-ermenting and infusions. Do you think that these are um ones that are easily applied where it could be something that you don't need a ton of education on the specific process or is this something

that requires a lot of tools uh to kind of follow along with the process, do lots of measurements and is a much more difficult thing to kind of acquire for a producer?

I would say it's difficult to do it well. Uh it's it's easy to execute just

well. Uh it's it's easy to execute just crudely. Yeah. Uh, and my biggest

crudely. Yeah. Uh, and my biggest concern is the purity and food safety of any additives.

Yeah.

Uh, and again, that's where transparency is a really, really helpful tool. Yeah.

Um, you know, people who buy these coffees don't care that they're infused.

Yeah.

They just want to make sure it's safe.

Exactly. No, that makes sense.

Obviously, we couldn't hit every single process. No, we couldn't do like a

process. No, we couldn't do like a double washed and uh, you know, anorobic unanor aerobic carbonic whatever. Uh but the idea with the video

whatever. Uh but the idea with the video is to hopefully equip you a little bit better to understand what you're looking at on a bag. If it says melon co- ferment, we know that during the fermentation, melons were added, right?

And so it's literally co- fermenting alongside the melon. So there is potentially a diffusion of some of the melon characteristics on the bean, but largely it's a it's a coexisting of the two fermentations going on. And then

whatever happens is still, I guess, being understood. Like we don't really

being understood. Like we don't really know exactly what's going on with specifically melon and coffee. I mean,

we could study it, but we could study it, but it's not necessarily understood. It's kind of

necessarily understood. It's kind of just right now, we're still in the early phases of this, so a lot of it's just it tastes good, we'll do it. Yep.

It could be fermentation, or it could just be a borrowing of some of the tastes from the melon.

Yeah. I mean, it's I think it's the the most interesting thing though because this has actually been done for like 20 years. People would add tamarind,

years. People would add tamarind, they'll add orange, you know, and we never cared before.

And so, it was do they were doing it like in the tub as it's sitting there fermenting.

Yeah. Panella, of course, kickstarter fermentation. Sugarcane, panella. Yeah.

fermentation. Sugarcane, panella. Yeah.

and they'll just add it and allow it to do its thing.

Yep.

And so now it's just getting under a microscope because what do you think?

There's a lot of money at stake.

Okay.

It's I think it's all about the competitions. You look at Best of

competitions. You look at Best of Panama, how much money that generated?

Crazy amounts.

Yeah. So if you can keep those coffees out because they have an unfair advantage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There are some coffees that might undergo a typical process. let's say

some sort of honey process where you pulp it and then you let it sit on a patio for 15 days and then you um during that drying period potentially there is

another patio right beside it that has lemongrass or bergammont on it.

So there could be an based off of the proximity there could be some sort of infusion of aromomas into the drying coffee itself. Would that be considered

coffee itself. Would that be considered an infused coffee?

I feel I feel like that's a gray area but in my opinion yes. So you don't think it necessarily has to be intentionally laid on top of it, but even if intentionally putting it on a patio right beside it where

inevitably there's going to be a cross pollination of the aromomas.

It's it's scented. It's perfumed.

It's scented, perfumed, and it's going to affect that cup. Yeah. And

there's nothing wrong with that.

No, because the higher the cup score, the more producers get paid and the happier customers are because they're getting better coffees.

Yeah. If they like the coffee, that's perfect.

One of the big uh issues we see in in the roasting world, which really screws over producers, is we'll have people committing to a lot, they get pre-shipped samples, tastes good, and then they get the samples once it's arrived at port and they'll see that it

tastes different than pre- ship samples and they reneig the contract. And this

is a big issue, and it screws producers over left and right. But with Chris's mission, he buys regardless. And I'll

tell you this, all the coffees taste fantastic. like he does an incredible

fantastic. like he does an incredible job sourcing an incredible job with the relationships and an incredible job communicating his vision for Aviary and uh I would love to hear us sign off with you talking a bit about your project with Aviary.

Yeah, Avary is meant to be kind of an experimental coffee roaster. The idea is that I buy a finite amount of coffee. I

release it to a finite number of people and they pretty much just trust me. It's

a trust fall. So at the beginning of the year uh my subscribers pay for a reservation and then they receive coffee. So, next year it'll be once a

coffee. So, next year it'll be once a month and they don't know what they're going to get. My initial goal was to create a a way for people to taste the work that I talk about on my blog because I give away my blog for free.

It's I I don't monetize it and I don't intend to.

Yeah.

But it is expensive uh to to maintain.

The travel that I do is expensive and so I needed some way to subsidize that and I think show don't tell.

Yeah.

So, that makes sense.

Yeah. And so, Avary is my way to to show that work.

That's incredible. Well, if you're interested in that, there's also a link to his website down below. Check out his blog. Some of the best free education,

blog. Some of the best free education, some of the best education in general, but it just so happens to be free on a slew of different topics. Check out

Aviary. Check out the coffee the work he's done. Worked with many people that

he's done. Worked with many people that you're probably already drinking coffee he sourced. So, uh, thank you very much,

he sourced. So, uh, thank you very much, Chris, for coming through and teaching us about post-h harvest processing. Is

there anything you want to leave the, uh, the group with? Just cuz you don't like a coffee doesn't mean it's bad.

That's actually a fantastic thing to end on. And uh it doesn't stop us from doing

on. And uh it doesn't stop us from doing the thing we love most, which is brewing something tasty, which I hope you'll do today. So, thanks very much for

today. So, thanks very much for watching. Cheers.

watching. Cheers.