Config 2024: A look inside teenage engineering (CEO & Founder, Jesper Kouthoofd) | Figma

[Music] [Music] all right everybody uh it is my honor to be in conversation with yesper today uh

welcome yesper to config thanks uh thank you for having me great to be here we're so glad you are uh I'd like to start off you were a child of the personal

computer era and these are not the computers that we have today these were computers that had real constraints how did that influence you um so my first

computer was a cx881 that was 1981 and I was 11 years old and it had um was black and

white had 1K ROM memory I later cre to 16k but uh but you

know that I think that started the whole you know like my whole career basically because finally I had I felt I had a

tool that I was even it was very basic and you know simple I felt very connected to it uh and we discussed it a little bit

and I think that was also the first time that that I discovered that limitations actually Sparks your creativity we you couldn't even do

graphics on the 681 you had to do an X or a y and move them around in kind of a maze and a little bit like the first Tetris was made you know so yeah that's

how I got into the tech tech world yeah and fast forwarding uh quite

a bit uh through acne through making film commercials uh we get to the op1 can you tell the story of how the op1 was

created and also maybe make sure that everyone knows what teage engineering and the op1 is uh for the two or three people that maybe don't know what it is

oh yeah uh so you see some images behind us uh which is basically a linear story of how teenage engineering started

um and um my background is that I started as a graphic designer My Father Was An Architect so I didn't want to compete with him I want to stay on on

the side you know uh uh so I started graphic design and then and did I did some record covers

and stuff like that um and then I uh moved to directing so I kind of learned learned how

to basically graphic design but you start to move the camera more or less um and I also also always draw my own storyboards uh and stuff like that and

then uh I I felt in the advertising in Industry that I felt a little bit like restricted so I felt you know I had this idea

that maybe you can sell just creativity that that is the product and that it can end up you know in a product or in a campaign or that's why I started Anna uh

which later became uh we had a je division but we also did computer games and stuff like that

um I left that when I felt I was like okay this is done uh and then uh I had had a break for a couple of

years uh and then we just met a couple of friends shared some shared a space I started collecting cars because you make a lot of money when you make commercial it was like Good Times back then so I

started collecting Lamborghinis uh had a garage and um then I started to feel that I need wanted to build things again

you know and uh we so I just did that I bought a CNC machine and started to build models and kind of inspired the

other people at in the garage you know May because I really didn't want to start a company again uh I don't like why not uh I maybe I should ask you you

know like it's really it's really this is interview not a speech about you know the decision to start or not start but you know but handling employees and all that it's it's and meetings and all that

it's super boring uh and I I don't actually don't do it so but I also I found out later that I really had

to create my own space or company because I couldn't be employed anywhere else you know uh I don't know why but it's you know so I had to create my own

space uh together it with like-minded people uh so I started to build models and one day

we had in front of us a a small synthesizer and the clock radio H and we were like shall we do the clock you know

radio or the syn the clock radio we love both products but then finally we said you know okay the syn is a little bit more challenging to do um and uh we all

love music so we went for the scent which became the op1 so so the op1 is just an absolutely

iconic product and can you tell us more about the process it took to to catch that design that you've evolved but uh for that

product have not changed yeah so you see some images here from from my Illustrated document so I had a couple of IDs uh and most of them

were based on when I was young when I was like 14 and 15 my big brother he used to work in a in a music store yep so I borrowed some

instruments from him every weekend that I could fit in my backpack which was a four track recorder some boss pedals like a uh delay chorus and stuff like

that some small drum machine or or some Japanese scent you know from Roland or something and if you look at the op1 it's actually exactly those parts that I

borrow from my brother's store that I had in my backpack that is the op one so that was like the start how I tried to

make I you know like I'm not the musician but I tried to make music when I was 15 and and these were the components that I needed to make something that sounded

okay um and uh again that that it was the is what the op one is the next thing was the challenge

to almost lay out how I used to work uh when I was young so first you start with with like a syn sound and the drum so I I have these keys on the on

the left side of the machine and then you mix it or then then you record it to tape so I have a tape symbol and then you mix it so everything is like super

logical uh but I worked on it for like two years or so you know and one thing to remember is we were four guys uh two of them were like software guys one

learned Electronics from scratch wow I never done any industrial design more less so I had to learn CAD I started with a software called uh uh first form

C on Mac and then I tried you know I need some more CAD stuff and it was like ashler Vellum you know about that it's a

really uh limited CAD software then you know so I had to learn from scratch you know how to CAD and mechanical engineering and stuff like that so but

that was the fun part we learned over time you know while we were building so and even then you were curating and

choosing collaborators uh and many of those collaborators are still people that you're working with today many years later yeah tell us about how you choose

a collaborator I think it's it's uh you know intuition uh can be

random um and um to me I rather go you know take a chance and then it work out over time

more or less than than try to analyze too much before so I'm really quick at you know taking decision and then other people you know like kind of take over and you know fix it later for me but I

still work like that that I can hire people just if I you know I see they have something thing huh uh maybe it's like super fun to have a beer with them

and they have some lot of great stories to tell then I want to close you know and we I want to work with them uh so what was was that your question or part

of it yeah I mean I guess another part of it uh and some people are going to be watching this interview later I'm sure and go uh you know their dream will be to work at teenage engineering so I'm

sure what they want me to ask you right now is how do they get a job with engineering what are your what are you looking for what what's that intuition so we had one guy that knocked we we

started in the garage so one guy knocked on the door and said I love your products okay come down for coffee and he's head of development

now um but we but he started he's he actually started we were like okay he's his is like a nice guy and he so we said

and we had a an empty spot in marketing so we he actually started in in marketing but he was kind of useless in that at that and uh I think we put him

at in you know in the support department but we you know exactly like that we really like to hang out he's one of my closest friends uh still today you know and he's he's been with us for like 12

years or so uh he's head of development and he I'm not sure he's like super good at it either you know but I tried to push him you know maybe

you know have you tried to build I sent him to like a Guitar Building course also like a year year uh so um yeah you

just do things and then you try to fix it you know over time I guess you know and I mean like is it looking for just people that you Vibe with that it's like

very peaceful or do you also look for people that you disagree with uh so actually yes so my

role uh maybe I should start with how we are organized so it's like a top down more or less organization but so I'm the CEO and then

I have a leadership team uh and then but but I'm also head of design so this is more like the CEO thing is more like a virtual

thing I'm basically still at the drawing board you know like and and work with the design team but we did it that way so we always have someone that is like

close to the product that make the final decisions but I don't basically put my fingers into the you know like daily operations and stuff like that but if they have a tricky problem they come to

me and I'm more like the moral kind of compass and and so they they they basically run the business and they they call me you know if they are in trouble

or you know uh so uh what was the question the question is um on the design side how often um do

you hire people that you agree with only oh yeah or how often is it that people like you hire them and you actually disagree creatively you all know that

you know like middle management um sorry you know it it's bad to have uh you should you should visit uh I were I I

will I will not men any names but it's like a Swedish company big Swedish furniture company uh it's like a couple of you know like

three or four people and it's like huge middle management kind of like gray Mass you

know which is and usually they they don't move they just stay there you know and they don't want anything to like interfere or if it's like crazy ideas

they they try to you know like keep it status quo so my role and it's the same at our company as well actually you know like

so the the operational team they kind of hire the same people that they you know in their age you know stuff like that so

uh so I but I bypassed them so I I just hired the sales guy um without almost telling the head of sales person uh

because I felt you know oh we need this young person to do some other kind of sales just to you know like and he's

French and he's you know uh so I've done that a couple of times just to mix up the culture um which is also you know

like really old people uh one guy that was like super depressed I hired him uh he's been at work I hired him like four

four years ago and he's he's been at work for like one week in total I think for four years uh we also have one guy

that he's he's at work but he hasn't done any work for eight years you know but he's nice

also for the culture I like it's almost like a mascot you know so and he knows it we had a competition you know like almost like a Lottery at

the company you know during covid and the first prize was you know was cash and uh PlayStation 5 and know

and of course that guy won the first prize he was like but I don't even work man you know can I get all this I get a

salary and and so it was uh yeah uh I think it's it's like this it's like and you know that as well you know if if you replace someone and you say

you know you maybe you don't fit in the team someone else that was previously quite good can take that place you know it's kind of this group dynamic that can

happen so you you will never have like a problem less uh company or organization and it's also like always you know you always have to reorganize

and redraw the the sharts and when you think about the design culture of teenage engineering I mean this is a design culture that's created what externally people see as hit after

hit after hit yeah I mean all your products sell out uh basically immediately uh and you know it's the the maybe the design culture people want to

most join yeah um in the world uh and how do you contrast that with the design cultures of other famous design

companies like apple or you know uh idio or um you know Ikea uh like um

so I I you know all those companies that you mentioned basically they they have a style right they have some kind of

identity or DNA and I was visiting Ikea like two weeks ago and I talked to uh they have a new CEO of like the product development department and I

said you know Ika needs to change style I'm tired of the AA style why don't we just do something new you know like why don't

can't we just skip the Lightwood and the you know the that stuff and uh um I think it's it's a little bit

like because we are much smaller than those companies you mentioned uh uh I really like them you know like all the

great design that that have have um come from Apple Ikea well you know and uh iide I I don't know if I don't know so

much about them I'm honestly I'm not you know like that into design uh but it's true I don't follow

you I can't I I don't know any names or uh it was super funny it was one this this guy that knocked on the door also uh and and people were like super get

super stressed at the office and I didn't know him and that was Virgil ablo I was like oh hey guy you know like welcome in and we s sat down and played

some SS and and um but people got super nervous at the office and I you know I I didn't know who who he was more or less

but we became friends and um and I miss him a lot but I I think it's to me it's important that you do

other things in your life uh otherwise you know it's like kind of this um circularity in a bad way yeah when it comes to IDs or you know how uh

philosophy and yep no I mean I think it's easy to hit a spot and have a creative rut yeah so to answer you question I remember it this time that you know what's the design culture at

our place basically it's a single brain operation so I'm the only one that is allowed to do design but I have a design

team of like eight uh to 10 people uh and they are like please yes Spar you know can I do some design now

you know no you're not ready yet um and the reason is design is extremely

hard and to me design is everything it's it's it's politics it's uh you know culture it's the brand it's

uh it's it's it's it's it's so much you know uh and for example I have

one young guy at the office and he's like I tried to make him okay design a a keyboard a musical keyboard and he started to

design uh and I told him you know you you need to know how to play the instrument before you design it I was like oh no I I don't have time for that

um and uh so I think it's super important so I've been working on a on a organ a classical

organ uh for five years now and so I sit every night for at least like one to two hours rehearsing the organ with the

pedals and you know I'm super bad I'm not musical but I really need to understand what makes an organ an

organ and uh uh so when I'm done with that then I can finalize that product yep uh so I I

think it is like that you know you need to know if you design something you need to ex know exactly why you do what you

do um otherwise it's to me design is an important then otherwise it's it's it's called styling uh so I told Volvo that I met

Volvo also and I said you know like you shouldn't call this you know the design Department this this is you you're working with styling it's that doesn't have core design has nothing to do with

design anymore it's just styling yeah wow doesn't solve any problems right it's just crazy spaceship looks and um and

they got of course super upset and kicked us out of the project uh but it was worth it but I ask them you know this simple

question why do you want a car to look like a spaceship and they say ah we don't want that but every model you have looks like you know a

spaceship and they didn't they didn't have an answer to it and again you know what is a car I think car is cars are very special it's not designed it's not

something it's like its own unique uh kind of discipline to work with like cars and vehicles what about the nothing phone that was something that you uh the

nothing phone uh that's a project where you know uh it's it came out with an incredible style result Carl Carl is here with us today he oh he's not here I

think he was certainly invited oh yeah yeah I I I I have had dinner with call p uh last night so I hope I don't say I prepared him that some Rasmus also I

think you texted me early but so some of the slides you will see in the background this actually unreleased nothing products and I was like I I bring I I put them in the presentation

and he was like oh yeah okay why not but but the question is going to be um nothing like where is the problem that you're solving versus what's the style in there

can you break that down for us so uh when Carl came I really like the idea he came to our office and he said you know actually I was still working on you know

small desk you know working at my computer you were doing some Cad and call more or less sat NE next to me and said uh hey my name is call I want to

work with you guys uh but I'm also looking at other Design Studios in the world you know so he was basically meeting a lot of designer but I was

still working I like and but then he said you know I want to make consumer electronics fun again you know exciting and I felt the same way you know I

growing up with with uh the early Mac and the walkman's and all that and so basically what we have today when

it comes to Tech is that you design everything around the display a touch display and you know the bevels and all the radius and all

that so uh but first of all we I I said to car okay we can work together but but we

have to be partners I can't be like a consultant yes because we need to be partners we need to be friends and you know like because it will be other problems over the way you know regarding

the brand and stuff and he was like thinking about it for a week and then he said you know yes um and then we started to

work and usually when I start like bigger projects like that uh I I I usually start making some kind of book like a man

Fest uh and we played around with different names and Carl came up with a nothing name which I loved I still and I

presented a logo I love this this idea uh no one really got it

but my I I presented that in my that little book I did so I do my own books as well it's like a one also like a single book thing or like one person thing so I do it over a weekend you know

like put all the images and IDs in one book send it to like the print shop and and you get it so it's it's like a 72h hour process wow it's quite a Sprint

yeah but I I want to talk about the logo the first idea I had for the nothing

logo uh was that it was a hole so it was just a hole and you can put a hole anywhere right

uhuh I I still think it's like a brilliant idea you know no one have you can't you can't print it but you can

punch it out right you so it's kind of uh I I still love that idea that's a COA but sometimes I can't yeah I can't

convince Carl to do everything but what we did the design process was that we had two ideas first one was there has been some transparent

Electronics so I said to him it's fine let's own transparency so that that is that will be you know like every time someone sees

some electronic that is transparent then they will think of nothing so it's more like this kind of marketing idea that even if Apple have done it you know and you've seen a lot of other products that

are transparent you can actually claim it and and make it you that that you you own it so that was the other idea um the third idea was that because of the the

you only have the display and we didn't have time to work on the user interface I you know basically flipped the phone over and started to uh draw

interesting things on the back uh so we made this glyph system with lights and uh which also becomes kind of like a

logo when people see it you know like uh so it's it kind of kind of the idea was also to to you know like help the brand and in the beginning then you need to be

maybe a little bit Bolder and and more recognizable than than after a couple of years but we we worked really hard to make it you know like bold statements

and you know lights here and uh a little bit a little bit maybe too much but I still I I still like it it's almost the problem was this is the first sketch I

did on the back of nothing phone yeah that's cool Serendipity so as as you see I still yeah I still work with like a pen and

markers not every day but I uh I know I'm going to presentations like this so sometimes I spend some extra time doing

hand sketches you know so it looks a little bit handmade you know uh my first render on the on the phone uh on the

nothing phone one um yeah and also keep it simple you know black white one red color red that all

it always works red white and uh and black we teally we use it more orange you know simple

tricks it's also about to me design because I grew up with my father was an architect yes so I have you know like I

grew up under his kind of like drawing desk so I slept under his desk and I so more or less I have it in in the blood

so I don't I don't think of design as something you know like a job or or uh it's more like it was part of the family and how we lived everything was like we

did our own Christmas cards and and um you Howes your can you tell us more about how your family but also your heritage

your country in yeah my father was Dutch right so my father was Dutch my mother is Swedish uh a lot of Dutch guys came to

Sweden in the 60s uh made uh Swedish girls

pregnant uh got stuck there uh so I'm I'm I'm the like a result of that

um uh it's not like that anymore know it's more like I don't know but uh so but and my mother is a banker uh so that was kind of

interesting she she she she was like good at handling money but my father was really poor and didn't sell himself either so he was drawing a lot and

making a lot of stuff uh but only at home he couldn't sell it to other people it was like kind of um I don't know but you're literally the

fusion of business design yeah yeah exactly so I got 50/50 and also my f is from uh from Holland and the the the design school

there is basically you know like the same tradition as bow house and uh the tradition of bowas is that you actually have to if you make a share with with

textile you know you don't you have to know everything about everything so you have to know how how to weld you have to know how to make the the fabric and

um yeah sorry no this is great I look also looking at the clock right that's okay so I think it's more about

knowing if you make something you know you have to know how every part is made more or less pivoting a bit I'm

curious you know you've been thinking so much about the future in AI how do we make models less boring like AI Model S

yes so we had one IDE idea uh that I told you on the phone

that I I want to feed you know my AI with my father's work my work where is my Ivana where is where are you uh

that's my daughter she's sitting there uh imagine you feed the AI with your kind of like family tradition can be you

know like the creative and then that could be interesting you know that could be a good model um but I don't know so much about I I think it's all about

positive thinking you know having a positive attitude technology will always win we know that right so if you're resistant and and scared then you will

lose so you have to see it from a you know like a positive side and see you know like how can we use it in the best possible way and also for Humanity right

so uh I think to me creativity is positive thinking of that as you engage in that positive

thinking about uh our future right now and imagine what the world might look like uh what comes to mind especially with the context of

AI we we are actually working on a on a really big ID that we started to work on two years ago it's kind of uh it's a little bit

related to AI or it it is related to AI but that it doesn't depend on it but it's a it's a really big but also like a small ID at the same time but probably

the biggest ID next to AI uh and I promise myself not to say what it is but you know I I always talk

to my and my my colleagues you know oh no it it's it said it you know uh I I won't tell we can talk about it later

but but I won't say what it is uh but it's I think so I can say it in this way I think the world need

noncommercial Alternatives uh they serious non-commercial alternatives to to like technical platforms

ah but but because I think you know I think we all feel that for example internet doesn't work as good anymore as

it did when it was like on in the right balance between commercial and non-commercial it was like a couple of years when it was like the perfect

balance but now when when advertising have like completely taken taken over then it gets you know like it's you don't want to be there anymore

so maybe that that's why I see you know we need an alternative to a lot of like Technologies and maybe you know AI will be the same thing that you will have the

the mass Market AI that solves you know like a lot of infrastructure logistical problems but then you also might need an AI curated

for good really good things when do you design for yourself and when do you design for others I always design for myself if if

uh if I wouldn't buy it or you know like use it then I would be I would probably be super depressed I and I've been in advertising business so I know how it is

I was I was a prostitute for like 20 years before I started do you believe in user testing huh do you believe in user

testing or user research no [Applause] no I

mean was was the wrong answer was that a new feature you introduced today sorry I think you know to

me I mean if you build your software right and if you test it it's fine it's like one one person person what I don't like is when it it's it becomes you know

like group decisions uh that's the problem that that you don't know why people say what what they say and you don't know if it's

if if it is the truth you know well I think we've got time for one big last question I'm curious you know you've got

all these designers in this room what is your advice to them and what do you believe is the responsibility of a designer

today I I was prepared for this question and I said you know like I did tell okay Dylan why don't you answer that to yourself of course I don't know I mean it's it's like it's a it's a big thing I

I would say uh the responsibility go back to yourself basically when I switch you know from

from advertising to something that that I really wanted to do you know like something meaningful in my life and I think I think you can see that in teenage engineering you know in what we

do that it if you can see that it feels is Meaningful to us the creators behind it we really don't care about if the audience like it we we it's important to

us so I would say everything you do from now on should be you should think you will look at it in

20 years and still be proud of it first of all and then you know that it will not hurt anyone I mean all the basic stuff that

it's respectful I I would say if you just go look 20 years from now at your own work and if you like it it will include

all those good values and you know like it's Timeless it's well it has quality it has you know like um it's

respectful um so it's so it's for us to reach you know like the highest level together I I

would say and what is the role of unique design what is the role of unique design especially in the era that we're in today uh

so good design to me doesn't have to be beautiful it has to be personal and what I miss today is a lot of this personality you know because I

want to see who has done a certain design so if I look at these shares I want to know oh it's cut uh rasmusen from Denmark who

did it because I this like C rasmon style right I want to see that I uh to M design is uh we were in a book I I brought you a little gift here but I we

were in a book store here in San Francisco me and my daughter and it it had a like a handwritten sign on the wall it was this

kind of you know like marxistic uh bookstore you know uh um but it said corporations are not

people which made me think you know it's quite interesting right that you know some people you know maybe you hide yourself you know your voice behind the

corporation or why can't the corporation be people I think what you're doing here today with the conference kind of proved the opposite right all the people it's all about us

that we meet uh have a personality uh you have your style blue jeans I have uh you know like black

jeans or they used to be black uh that we have you know our own personality our own voice

um this is my bar in I started bar uh but I think it's super important

that design is not about beauty but good design is also equal to good problem solving or

good engineering uh so if you solve a problem in a really elegant you know from an engineering perspective way then you have solved the design problem as

well and uh I I bought this book because I I was trying to find you know like oh I all I really want to give Dyan something you

know for inviting me and then I came to this this is a story I have been carrying with me for many years

it's the story of why a fork is designed as a fork as we know it today and the knife and the shop sticks and I I I

guess 99.9% in this room doesn't know why a fork looks like it looks or a knife or

why we have a knife and fork or why why we have shop sticks so you need to buy this book it's called uh basically it's it's the story about the knife and fork

but also about the the paperclip but but the the the knife and fork uh stories you don't know it either right I

don't I'd love to hear it I guess I'll read the book yeah yeah thank you so [Applause] much which also is kind of interesting

because it also it's like this kind of lost and answer to the last question is that we have a lot of egos today right but if we are part of the evolution and

that's it's also in that story that you know you do your little part on the timeline of humanity you do you move the dot a little bit forward and that's that

that's the role you have you don't have to you know revolutionize you know Society just just we do it together I mean we just

moved the humanity forward together one a little bit at a time yeah Gasper thank you so much thank you for having me thank you for being here

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