Couples Confronting Anger | Couples Therapy

It's the intensity of the fights.

What happens? I

don't like, like, it's the yelling, the drinking, the name calling. And when it gets to that point, it feels helpless.

name calling. And when it gets to that point, it feels helpless.

He's my best friend. I want it to work.

I don't want the anger.

From the very beginning of our relationship, I was under a lot of pressure. He

was coming out of a marriage before. So immediately I'm thinking, oh, great.

Now I have to measure up to this woman or make him feel comfortable again because he had his guard up. And I just... What kind of guard? You know,

he had this timeline of these steps that he had to take before he got very serious with someone. So, you know, I felt like I was kind of walking on eggshells a little bit with that. And then we had a conversation and he said flat out that, you know, I almost gave up on dating black women. So

there's a little bit of judgment there. He feels a type of way. A judgment

that black women are? Hard to deal with. and he just doesn't want to argue all the time. So, um... But generalization that black women would argue more.

Yes. Mm-hmm. So... What are you thinking? Well, I mean, at first, I'm so sorry that she felt that way. But here's the thing. Every time there's an issue, she comes to me with guns blazing. Mm-hmm. It's never, you know, okay, let's talk about this or let's discuss this. Is that true? I have a problem.

I never come guns blazing. I come and we have a conversation and it escalates when I feel like I'm not being understood or if I'm being dismissed or if I'm not being heard at all. I mean, I'm not saying, I think we have different tolerance levels. And I think when India has a plight, it's very quick for her to get to, okay, now it's explosive. but I don't

like the way you make me feel. You make me feel angry, aggressive, and like the villain when I was the one in my mind was the victim. You know,

just trying to communicate to you what my problem is. Okay, but- Hold on, hold on. Okay, okay. I'm getting a flavor of what the two of you are talking

on. Okay, okay. I'm getting a flavor of what the two of you are talking about. And I think we can agree that you each hurt each other with your

about. And I think we can agree that you each hurt each other with your words. Yes. So I guess the first question then is how do the two of

words. Yes. So I guess the first question then is how do the two of you create a space where you can say what you need to say to each other that feels still productive for the two of you. Yes.

Yes. I'm happy to be a part of that conversation. But I feel like he tries to put me in a box of being overly traumatized or overly insecure or too emotional. And I'm not saying that I don't get upset and angry, but he's very uncomfortable with confrontation. Yeah.

Um, and I feel like, okay, that's something to decode with him. I don't

want to feel like I'm the only person here who's broken, who needs to be fixed, when in fact, I don't think I'm broken at all, actually. Maybe he's the broken one. Well, we're probably all broken. I mean, yeah. In some form. Yeah. I

broken one. Well, we're probably all broken. I mean, yeah. In some form. Yeah. I

understand the tension and the conflict, but be aware of how you talk to each other, because these are ways to not have to listen to each other.

Yeah. I questioned our relationship, and you know that. From the beginning, I'd be like, uh... And I would tell her, maybe that's something we should work on. But her

uh... And I would tell her, maybe that's something we should work on. But her

response is like, maybe that's one of your moods again. So you're not managing to get enough of a reaction. I never get a reaction from her. Like, I try to push her buttons, and it just doesn't work. But I'm wondering if these little comments... Is trying to find her to get her to react? Yeah, it's trying to

comments... Is trying to find her to get her to react? Yeah, it's trying to elicit more of a reaction or... You know, you... I feel like I'm trying to sabotage what we got. Sometimes I feel like I'm a self-sabotager. Maybe you're pissed off about something. I mean, I could be. I

just don't know what it is I'm so mad about. Let's...

Think about it also just in terms of ways in which things happened to you as a child that were indeed ignored. Oh yeah. I'm still very angry. I'm angry at my uncle.

angry. I'm angry at my uncle.

I'm angry at my parents. But there's something about that that's getting played out between the two of you. Us, yeah. In the sense that you're on some level experiencing Yaya as not picking up on something, not responding. I'm wondering if you're mad that Yaya is

not responding. I'm wondering if you're mad that Yaya is not paying attention. Mm-hmm.

Probably, yeah. Yaya, do you, I mean, Do you recognize in yourself that there's some way that you're muting your response to sin?

Yeah. I know when I get upset, I just shut down. But in my mind, I'm, like, angry. So when something hurts you, you go towards shut down. Yeah.

But I think that's just the easiest way for me to cope, because, like, when you get mad, you are explosive. You go for the jugular. And if I know she's like that, like, I've... find things to keep me busy so I kind of don't have to interact as much, kind of like letting the bomb be defused.

And then we can talk. But I think you're not allowing yourself to get upset enough for Sin to feel like she's actually having an impact.

Yeah, but I... It's not that I don't pick up on her cues.

I don't react to her cues, and it goes back to me not being able to fully express how I was feeling as a child and express my emotions without there being repercussions for doing so. So I've had how many years of just boxing it in here and dealing with it internally?

Mm-hmm. But I also know that she is struggling right now, like she's hurting. So...

Yeah, it makes me upset, but... You don't show it. You're just so composed.

Something about you not showing it, even though it's beautiful and gracious, it's also not necessarily the best to what's happening between the two of you. There's a way that you're keeping yourself somewhat removed from what Sin is repeatedly saying to you.

How does the bickering go? I mean... I get

like... It sounds like you're saying something, Josh. Oh!

I don't bicker. I'm not a bickerer. I can't believe I'm using this word. We've

never used this word, bickering. Okay, I'm going to use an example. I like to go to bed with the kitchen completely clean. I don't like dishes in the sink.

I like... You have to wake up in the morning. I want to wake up in the morning and have it be clean. And this morning, there were... and I

yell about, you know, why are the dishes here? And we have to clean this up. And I have told you I don't want the dishes in the sink. And

up. And I have told you I don't want the dishes in the sink. And

then Josh will say, okay, I'll take care of it. But that to me is still not like every single time it happens, I don't want to hear, I'll take care of it. I just, I don't want it to happen. Can I just ask you what your thoughts are on this? When she gets upset about, the fact that I didn't do them last night. I think, yeah, but I did them the night

before and the night before that and for the last 20 years. You know, I've been doing the dishes. So, yeah, what I want to say is like, lay off. But what you then say is?

lay off. But what you then say is?

Honey, I'll take care of it. I'll take care of that. I'll take care of it. I'll do that. But then I think to myself, like, this is about something

it. I'll do that. But then I think to myself, like, this is about something else. I would love if he would stop me in that moment and say,

else. I would love if he would stop me in that moment and say, honey, it seems like something else is going on. Do you want to talk about it? Because that right there makes me feel like he's interested in me.

it? Because that right there makes me feel like he's interested in me.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, it made me think that you're identified with the dishes, that you feel neglected. The dishes are like you. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't. But you're like, Look at me, I've been sitting here waiting and nobody's paying any attention. But is it possible that it's not that you're not seen or even valued, but there's some kind of negotiation about who has the say about when and what? Meaning

that like, I want things to go on my timing. That you want things on your timing and Josh in a way by not doing it as saying, I don't want to do it according to your schedule. I've got my own schedule.

But you're kind of forgetting that it's that register. I wish he would say that to me. Well, he's saying it by inaction. It is a form of

to me. Well, he's saying it by inaction. It is a form of saying. See, but to me, that's like a cowardly way of saying it. Like, why

saying. See, but to me, that's like a cowardly way of saying it. Like, why

can't you just say it? What would happen if I said, I don't want to do it on your time frame? OK. I'd think to myself, you can't get pissed about this. He said it to you. That's how I would feel. What are you

about this. He said it to you. That's how I would feel. What are you thinking? Do you believe that? No, I don't believe it.

thinking? Do you believe that? No, I don't believe it.

Like, I hear her. But how can you believe something that you've never tried? This

is what's so frustrating. OK, but I want to say something. You've never tried it, so how do you know? Molly, I want to say something. Just so you know, generally, I'm a verbal person, and I like people talking and saying what they want to say. but there is some legitimacy to talking via action.

to say. but there is some legitimacy to talking via action.

And in a way, by asking Josh to say it to you in your language, it's kind of a repeat of the same dynamic, which is your time frame, your language. I understand. There are different ways that people communicate, and sometimes, I can't believe

language. I understand. There are different ways that people communicate, and sometimes, I can't believe I'm even saying this, but sometimes the nonverbal is pretty useful. So

let's shift a little bit and see what might be going on through this scene of the dishes. What's going on underneath all this is that my husband is very angry and hurt by me. And

I'm aware that I'm being neglected because he's hurt and angry. Do you wanna, I mean, just talk about that? About? Anger,

your anger at Molly. I mean, I'm really uncomfortable with anger. I feel uncomfortable feeling it. I don't know, the words that come to mind are like ugly and

feeling it. I don't know, the words that come to mind are like ugly and weak. Like I don't have respect for people that get angry with other people. Do

weak. Like I don't have respect for people that get angry with other people. Do

you know that you're angry at Molly? Do you feel it? Yeah. Yeah. You can

recognize it when it's happening. I can recognize it when it's happening. I think he knows me well enough to know what I'm asking, what I need, and it's almost like by withholding it, that is a way to show his anger.

And it's like by his lashing out, I lash out also by continuing to lose control or act out in the way that I do. It's like a way to test if the anger is there still or not. So

probing, poking at you, she's trying to test out, is your anger gonna come out?

Is it still there? Or is your compassion, interest gonna show up?

Yeah. We're not currently fighting about something. It's just super blissful. I see.

And then the second something happens, it's like the walls are capping in, the ground opens up, the bats fly out. It's crazy. Yeah, no, that's the thing with our relationship, that when it's good, it's really, really good. And it just takes like a pin drop, and then it's really, really bad. So

maybe you're both really good dissociators? Well, I am for sure.

Funny enough. Uh-huh. Yeah. He actually dissociates. So

do you want to just help me? Just how much do you dissociate? What's your...

We're jumping right in, so tell me your speech. I mean, apparently...

You look like you think it's the best to not say anything.

Sometimes it's easier for me to speak and then help jump in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I guess it's just kind of like a moment where it just gets so heightened to the point that his conscious self is like, I can't do this anymore.

And like, he won't remember the rest of the night.

So if anyone- You dissociate. Yeah. Okay. So you're saying your relationship goes through certain periods that you're like this and then other periods when the bats are out. Yeah. There are some times when we have one fight and it's like

are out. Yeah. There are some times when we have one fight and it's like three months of like a struggle to... To get back from the fight? Yeah.

What are the main issues? Family dynamics. I don't have family because I've excommunicated myself from the family who's been very abusive to me. But

then his dynamic with his family He will still defend them, even if they're hurtful towards him. And in all of our issues, I think this is our main, like,

towards him. And in all of our issues, I think this is our main, like, catalyst that we come from very different perspectives. Because you'll have different versions? Not only different versions. Actually, no, we will

different versions? Not only different versions. Actually, no, we will have the same version. We don't make up stuff, but we have different feelings. So

the both of us, this is right here. I just see it from this angle.

I see the logo and you don't. No. You see the logo?

I see the bottle about to explode and me holding it together and my hands bleeding. You're saying you feel things intensely. If something is really bad, you're saying you just go to sever

intensely. If something is really bad, you're saying you just go to sever the relationship. So that's kind of an intense reaction. Yeah, for sure. And you're

the relationship. So that's kind of an intense reaction. Yeah, for sure. And you're

saying about Casimir, you, I guess, tolerate more?

Well, yeah, be fair. Or you don't have that intensity of a reaction? To you,

it's not an exploding bottle. Yeah, to me, it's not an exploding bottle. Right. What

would be your response to that?

I'm afraid of the fighting. I'm afraid of... It's the intensity of the fights.

What happens? I don't like... Like, it's the yelling, the drinking, the name-calling. And when it gets to that point, it feels

the name-calling. And when it gets to that point, it feels helpless. He's my best friend. I want it to

helpless. He's my best friend. I want it to work. I don't

work. I don't want the anger. What are you thinking?

I mean, this is kind of where I was talking about the bottle earlier, that I do want the anger sometimes. One thing I've learned through a lot of this therapy and a lot of us being here together is I guess I expect more than I'm getting. Expect. You're using a very particular word. You're not saying I

long for. You're saying I expect, which means that

long for. You're saying I expect, which means that sets up Rod to fail. OK. OK. You expect, and then the person fails you. So that's already a dynamic that is toxic for the two of you. because then I get a response. But what does he expect? If

you were expecting, what does he expect? I don't know what I want. That's

important. I don't, I'm not sure what I want. But you know you're disappointed. Because,

right. And none of you even know what's missing. Not even close. Yeah. You don't

know what you want, you don't know what is expected, both of you just know it fails. Correct. Meaning there's nothing there, really. This is like,

it fails. Correct. Meaning there's nothing there, really. This is like, some cover up for something else. Yes. Okay. But the reason I sometimes choose to avoid these conversations is maybe because they're difficult. And dare I say anything about finances and that's it, that's... But it's not... Hold on. Okay. Sorry. There's

a lot of pressure on me. You wanted me, I wanted myself. It's not bad to kind of, you know, be more successful for a second. But when you deliver it with that, you know, jab, it feels, ugh. It feels what? It feels... It

feels what? What does it feel? It feels like a jab. But look, right now.

But doesn't, but I'm asking you nicely. But the anger's manifesting right now. I mean,

are you getting it? It's not, I'm not, I'm not, right? I'm really not. Okay.

Well, you sound angry. Okay. You sound frustrated. Because I feel like, okay, okay. You

do not sound like you want to hear what it feels like. I do want to hear it. So do something with your demeanor that invites that. You just witness it. She triggers so quickly. Mm-hmm. And it's like, whoa, it's not, again, it is...

it. She triggers so quickly. Mm-hmm. And it's like, whoa, it's not, again, it is...

Did you see what I did? Yeah, you did, absolutely. You can do that. Mm-hmm.

We need to tackle our issues. What does that mean? We need to talk about our finances. We need to get help and figure out what we need to do

our finances. We need to get help and figure out what we need to do together. Do you want to try talking about finances? Sure. Go ahead. We know the

together. Do you want to try talking about finances? Sure. Go ahead. We know the answer. We need to make more income. That's the answer. We can't cut back on

answer. We need to make more income. That's the answer. We can't cut back on anything, because there's not nothing to cut back on. We need to bring in more...

There are things you spend on I don't, and it's another X amount here, another X amount there. And we don't have conversations about that. All of a sudden I see, wow, $700 out in the bank. Where'd that go? What are you talking about?

You went to get your eyes tested last couple weeks ago, and you spent $700.

But you know it's once a year that I go and I get my eyes checked. I'm not going to justify that. I'm not. And this is where I get

checked. I'm not going to justify that. I'm not. And this is where I get angry. Because this is where, like, that's the conversation we're having? It just came up.

angry. Because this is where, like, that's the conversation we're having? It just came up.

It wasn't even conscious. What conversation do you want to be having? You wanted to talk about money and there was a conversation about money. It just... So why didn't you talk to me about it then? Why did you have to wait? Like, if

there's something bothering you... So... If you want... Rod to talk to you more, you have to make the conversations... inviting. Okay.

If you're gonna keep being angry, you're not gonna have that thing you want.

What triggered the anger? Because I've taken a lot of time away to be with our daughter. And I don't regret one minute. I'm thrilled that I've been home.

our daughter. And I don't regret one minute. I'm thrilled that I've been home.

But we lost a lot of money when I was home.

So now it's like catch up. But it sounds like you're regretful for the last decade. And then when he says something like that, I just, I'm not interested to talk to him about it. Because like, it's so condescending.

You're in a job, so I'm frustrated.

I just feel like it's the same dialogue over and over again. Years of it, because I feel like it's so suppressed for so long. on the reality of how much it hurts. What hurts?

I don't know what I'm saying. I don't. I really don't. I agree. I really

don't. I don't know how to communicate. I don't know what to say. Mm-hmm. I

just think that you can apply yourself so much more, and you don't. Mm-hmm. And

maybe this is who you are. And like, this is who I am. Anxious

and angry over performance. Over whose performance? Rod's, because I didn't have a performance. I took too much time off. And that's what I'm angry at. I'm angry at myself. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's it. So

at. I'm angry at myself. Yeah. That's it. I mean, that's it. So

honest, I can't be any more honest. And yes, I expect a lot from you.

Over the last decade, that's how old her daughter is. I've stepped five... What did

you just hear Alison say? But he didn't. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. What

did you just hear Alison? She admitted that she's upset with herself for taking so much time off. Yeah. And that's obviously, you know, true and deep. And hard. Yeah.

But I didn't acknowledge that. I heard it, but I didn't acknowledge it. Right. But

also because of that, we have an awesome kid and you're an awesome mom. So

you have to also give yourself a pat on the back for, you know, It might not be in the bank, but it's certainly in life experiences. That's great. But

not the point. Thank you. No, it's not. Doesn't feel good.

I feel the same way, Nico. If I could lay on the floor, I would do the same. I would. Do the same exact thing right now. On the sisal rug. I would lay right like that. Now that's how I feel.

rug. I would lay right like that. Now that's how I feel.