Dan Koe: How To Get Ahead Of 99% Of People in 2026

For life to be meaningful, you have to be in this continuous state of growth. Doing nothing is not just staying the same, it's decaying. >> Dan, Co, is, a, writer,, entrepreneur,, and one of the internet's deepest thinkers on personal development. He's built a one person empire that has become the blueprint for the modern-day creator. >> Problems, are, always, going, to, be, around. It doesn't matter whether or not AGI can solve all the problems we have today.

New technology breeds new problems to solve. So, if you have a specific skill that is valuable in today's world you're going to have to adapt to create value in the future. >> In, this, episode,, Dan, breaks, down, the future proof skill stack, how to develop trust with your audience, and the mental models that separate people building real businesses from those playing status games. So, you just need to start experimenting, trust the process, take the leap of faith. It may take 6 months.

You may be lost and uncertain for 2 years, but eventually you will discover something that you can't pull yourself away from.

[Music] What's up, guys? It's Mark. Quick break. Over 80% of you guys listening are not subscribers. The more subscribers we get, the bigger and better we can make the show. It would mean the world to me if you got value from this episode or any of the past episodes to hit the subscribe button below. Thanks for watching. [Music] So, you say the future belongs to those with a futureproof skill stack. What does that mean to you and why is it so important now?

>> So, the, future, proof, skill, stack, broadly is learning how to learn, learning how to think, learning how to earn. All of those things can be broken down into a broad set of business skills. In my opinion, I think those things are marketing sales writing speaking. Marketing and sales are kind of the same thing. That's the message. Writing and speaking also kind of the same thing. That's the medium, right? So you need a way to deliver the unique value in your

mind and that's the writing or speaking. And then you need a way to format that language so that other people see it as valuable. Right? The starving artists only focus on the writing or speaking. The sleazy salesmen only focus on the marketing or sales. When you merge those things together, merge art with business, that's when you get this very I think, meaningful set of skills >> which, then, gives, you, leverage, in, the marketplace, which then helps you build

distribution in the marketplace and then further cements the skill set. >> It, it, teaches, you, principles., I, feel like it's always been important and people are only starting to realize it now. It's becoming very urgent or at least so it seems online. That's like the biggest fear right now is like AI going to take over the world. The thing there is that this is kind of the catalyst to people actually changing their life, right? I'm sure we'll dig

into this further, but I truly believe that building your own thing and taking your own path. Doing that provides all of these overarching benefits of living a good life. If you dive into the psychology of that, the psychology of challenge and learning and skill acquisition and being able to set your own goals and not enter into this repetitive and mundane style of work that kind of is destructive to your psychology leading to an unfulfilling

life. The thing with AI coming in to potentially take people's jobs or people being so afraid of where the future is headed, the reason I'm so adamant on building this futurep proof skill stack is because it's the thing you should have been doing in the first place. Right now is just like it's so urgent that you don't need an excuse to do it. The people of the past who kind of didn't want to live an average life they had to acquire that future proof

life. The thing with AI coming in to potentially take people's jobs or people being so afraid of where the future is headed, the reason I'm so adamant on building this futurep proof skill stack is because it's the thing you should have been doing in the first place. Right now is just like it's so urgent that you don't need an excuse to do it. The people of the past who kind of didn't want to live an average life they had to acquire that future proof

skill stack because it just comes to you by nature of diving into the unknown figuring out your own way, slashing your way through the jungle and learning how to learn, learning how to think, and learning how to earn. That's kind of what I would say the future proof skill stack is is being able to do many things throughout your life and pursue your own way. >> Yeah., So, this, AI, thing, is, just exasperating it and accelerating it and it's something that people should have

been doing regardless. I know you talk a lot about kind of generalists verse specialists. I want to dive deep into why you think being a generalist is so important for this kind of skill stack. The way that I see a generalist is that they set their own goal that they want to pursue rather than being assigned one by someone else and then they learn what's necessary to achieve that goal. Right? If you simply focus on the skill which is kind of the specialist mindset

in order to then be assigned a job to do with that skill or to kind of uh be able to fit like a puzzle piece into some place in the economic system. That's where the problem starts to arise. The main distinction between a specialist and generalist is that the specialist focuses on acquiring a skill to fit into society. A generalist focuses on what they want and learns anything necessary to achieve that which may be one skill that they become really good at, but

that doesn't make them a specialist. >> I, feel, like, it's, ultimately, about, saying this is the lifestyle that I want and then just ultimately reverse engineering and being non-emotional to the skills that you need to execute against that. >> Yeah., and, not, being, distracted, from, it either by status symbols or credentials. >> Go, deeper., What, do, you, mean, by, status symbols or credentials? >> It's, not, getting, stuck., If, you, have, this ideal future, this big grand vision, but

then one step along the way is going to school, right? That's not a bad thing if it actually helps you achieve your goal or getting a 9 toive job or whatever the stepping stones to that thing could be. you can very much get stuck in that place or get knocked off track because then you begin to chase status rather than what you actually wanted in the first place or what you think you want. Now, an example is if I'm offered a promotion at the job, but I know

originally that is not what I wanted to do, but it offers more money, it offers more status, it offers some kind of a credential, it opens up maybe new opportunities in life. If you start to go down that path, then you're off track and eventually you're going to realize this isn't what I wanted in my core and then, you're, going to, have, to, backtrack and go the other way. But a lot of people won't do the backtracking because it becomes part of them and it becomes

their routine. It becomes their new lifestyle and as we get older around the age of 25 the the adult mind starts to crystallize. It becomes very hard to change it. you can change it. But if you can do it earlier in your life and you have the blessings of youth, time energy attention focus etc. that's the superpower is being able to set yourself up for a life where it's difficult for your mind to crystallize. I feel like you're really backing into the importance of just change, the

their routine. It becomes their new lifestyle and as we get older around the age of 25 the the adult mind starts to crystallize. It becomes very hard to change it. you can change it. But if you can do it earlier in your life and you have the blessings of youth, time energy attention focus etc. that's the superpower is being able to set yourself up for a life where it's difficult for your mind to crystallize. I feel like you're really backing into the importance of just change, the

importance of adaptability. And I think now obviously with AI coming to understand and know like what the path is going to be to get to the lifestyle that you want is so unclear. It's more unclear now than it ever will be. So it's just keeping an open mind. I feel like >> yeah,, you, know, what, you, want, now, and, you may know what you want to do now, but that could drastically change in the future. You may be identifying or attaching two specific ways of achieving

goals right now that aren't going to serve you or aren't even going to be around in 10 years. Right? A lot of people are focused on, oh, what skills will be relevant in 20 years? What skills should I learn right now? And we don't know. We don't know if any of the skills are going to be around in 20 years from now. All we know is that we don't know anything. Oh, all we actually do know is that problems are an inherent feature of reality. Problems are always

going to be around. It doesn't matter whether or not AGI can solve all the problems we have today. New technology breeds new problems to solve. So, and problems breed valuable solutions. That's how value is created. That's how value exchange happens. So whether or not you have a specific skill now that is very valuable in today's world you're going to have to be able to adapt to being able to create value in the future. If you can learn how to learn

and learn faster, then you can do almost anything faster, right? People again are so worried about what skill to learn. But if you can learn any skill fast then it doesn't really matter which one you learn because you can change course in 6 months. I want to take a step back and just really really highlight kind of these key strokes on how to become kind of futurep proof. Let's talk learning to learn is one of them. I think curiosity and adaptability is another one.

Self-education is another one. What other kind of key traits do you think are important under the notion that I think we all know that AI is going to take a very large chunk of the jobs coming forward? So in terms of the moes or what is going to make a person futureproof and this isn't very practical cuz as mentioned we can't really get practical cuz we don't know what practical skill is going to be the best 20 years from now but what I think

we can bet on is taste signal narrative and trust so those three things narrative being one of the most important Because the mind, our human mind makes sense of the world in stories and that's where we derive meaning from is that story. So how can you bake that into your work? I I want to touch base on trust. I think for anybody right now understanding and knowing that AI is coming soon, building distribution and building trust, I feel like are by and

far the two most important things. I know that's one thing that I feel like that you've done better than almost any quote unquote personal brand that I've seen on the internet. What are some of like those key things that you've done over the years to build trust with your audience? >> I, feel, like, the, trust, comes, down, to, not falling into the temptation of trendjacking and just doing what's popular. It comes from signal, right? It comes from reading the things that you find

interesting, learning the skills that are going to take you towards the next step in your life. And when you do those things and when you filter reality through your own unique lens, you notice the things that signal that dopamine response in your brain. Right? You and I both read the same book. We're eventually going to reach a paragraph where we get very excited. We see an idea and we're like "Ah, yes, that's a great idea." But that's going to be completely different

for both of us, right? So, you have to lean into who you are. Who you are is this web of ideas. It's this web of beliefs. It's this filter for how you actually see the world. So, being able to spot what is important to you and then illustrate that importance to other people in the form of content or online. That's kind of how you build trust right? not just doing what other people want to hear, but sharing what you find extremely valuable.

>> Something, that, you, say, very, very, often is about like becoming the niche and kind of being uniquely you. I'd love to know directly in relation to that is what happens when all of your content is very much so focused on kind of one thing and then you start veering off and trying new things and that really performs really well. Do you need to just follow your curiosity and your passions and wherever it may go is what you should be doing tactically

>> kind, of, sort, of, when, whenever, it's maybe it's only in niche pockets of the internet where I see it but there's just this constant argument of should you niche down or should you quote unquote become the niche if you just observe the internet there are people who have done both and since people have done both they're both valuable or they're both viable routes to go if you think clearly about it you can go either way the reason why I argue for becoming the

niche or why you are the niche is because it makes you focus on what actually gets results. You learn the game that much faster. You're not just teaching and educating and again saying what other people want to hear and kind of limiting your mind and what you learn and what you're exposed to to that specific thing. You have to focus on making your interests interesting to other people. When I say that, and this is a very important thing, it's like

okay, well, what if I want to talk about underwater basket weaving and nobody likes that? You like it. That means other people can like it too. And that's the entire creative puzzle you're trying to solve. How do you illustrate why it's important to you, how you found it interesting? reverse engineer that process and guide other people towards it. Right? People talk about, oh, what if I have this product or this book that I really like and I think is very important or

valuable, but other people aren't going to see it as that. Persuasion. You have to learn how to persuade. You have to learn how to create your own customers. Right? That's a big gripe I have with the space in general is people are trying to find this product market fit which is a very good thing right there's you should do that but it gets you in this mindset of trying to find people that are already interested in what you do rather than creating interest in what you do.

Because if you learn that skill then like the results of that, the outcome of that is almost infinite because you can bring as many people into your audience as you want and show them why what you do is important and then they can adopt that as a part of their life and see a lot of value from that. >> And, then, you're, dictating, your, own lifestyle because you're just ultimately just following your curiosity, following your passions, figuring things out learning new things.

>> You, can, do, whatever, you, want., Yeah. Because it's like if you are trying to reach this vision, you're trying to create this ideal lifestyle, anything you do along the way that you deem important for achieving that thing other people can benefit from that too. And so if you can again illustrate the importance of that on the internet in front of people and guide them from beginner to advanced or no awareness to problem awareness to solution awareness

which is you then again you create your own customers and a lot of people that may not hit just yet but that is such a powerful thing because then it's not a matter of finding people who will pay you money. It's creating people who will pay you money for a valuable thing for impacting their life. >> Is, there, like, a, a, system, or, like, a, group of key things that you put in all of your content? >> Yeah. >> To, make, it, resonate, with, the, audience.

>> Yeah., A, lot, of, people, ask, me, like,, I have all of these deep esoteric interests, but how do I start writing about those cuz nobody's going to like it. It's just going to go over people's heads. I feel like what I've done really well not to toot my own horn, is I can take those deep spiritual philosophical ideas that sound very wispy, sound very clever, they make sense to me. I think there's something there. I know that 80 90% of the markets are either beginners or have never been

exposed to any of the sequence of ideas that allowed me to see that idea as important. So if I can take that idea and introduce people to it or somehow write the essence of that idea in a more palatable way, especially on social media, it depends where you're writing this. Then that's how you start at least, right? You have Twitter Instagram, Tik Tok, etc. The super deep ideas probably aren't going to work very well there. But at the bottom of your

newsletter after you've already introduced the topic, you've kind of brought the beginners up to speed and then you hit them with that deep stuff. That's what really builds the trust is you like providing the fast track for people understanding these very deep things. >> And, this, is, all, it's, basically, like, a, a whole entire funnel. You're starting with consumption. Are you just reading a lot of things, watching a lot of things and then ultimately what's that process?

Are you then going to your journal and writing things down? Yeah, it overlaps with learning how to learn. It's they're very similar processes. It starts with having a project or just building something, having a goal and working towards it because that becomes your point of view. I I don't like to think of goals as something that you achieve. They're points of view. Once you reach them, you can look back and you have all of this experience that

you can pull from now. But on the way to it, you once you have this goal that you're pursuing and you've invested energy into it, your mind is this machine that wants to achieve its goals. What your mind is going to do via pattern recognition is it's going to increase dopamine levels in your brain when you find an idea or a resource or a tool that will bring you closer toward your goal. So I systemize this by having a newsletter every week. Sometimes a product that I'm

building or really any project, any goal that you're trying to achieve. Once I have that, anything I listen to or read or consume, I'm not doing it to necessarily learn what that thing is. I'm just waiting for ideas to pop out to me. And once those ideas pop out to me it usually connects to one of the goals or projects. So, if I'm writing a newsletter on business that week and I read a philosophy book, an idea sticks out that's kind of related, but I see

the relation, I note that idea down and once I have enough of those and I can then, let's say, write that newsletter on business with the philosophy ideas then that creates this very unique thing, right? But it makes sense because they, all, tie, together,, at least, in, my mind, in relation to that's how you learn. It is how you learn, right? You can sit down and watch a course for 30 hours or read an entire book on a topic but if you don't have the goal that

you're working towards, you don't know which aspects of that information actually works because you haven't tested it in reality. Let's zoom out for a bit. So, you have a couple of these goals. Ultimately, what you're saying it seems as though it's just consumption with intent. So, if you're working on X goal, you are literally just filtering anything and everything that you consume. And how does it speak to that goal? How does it help optimize that

goal? Is that basically what you're doing? >> Yeah. >> Interesting., That, makes, a, lot, of, sense. I mean, for me, when I read a book, I always on the left side of the books, I just write little notes on how can it help my business. That's the basically the same exact thing that you're doing. >> Yeah., Well,, that's, why, you're, kind, of reading in the first place, right? So there's two different ways of doing it.

goal? Is that basically what you're doing? >> Yeah. >> Interesting., That, makes, a, lot, of, sense. I mean, for me, when I read a book, I always on the left side of the books, I just write little notes on how can it help my business. That's the basically the same exact thing that you're doing. >> Yeah., Well,, that's, why, you're, kind, of reading in the first place, right? So there's two different ways of doing it.

I'm more so like I listen to things that could potentially aid in achieving my goals. Yes. >> And, that's, where, the, superpower, happens. But even if you read fiction and you're like, imagine that you're one week out from a deadline on a project, that night you read fiction, you read this really good story. I pretty sure it will almost always tie into what you're doing. That's the interesting thing is everything you consume conforms to what you're trying to achieve. That's why

tying back to the beginning, assigned goals by society versus generating your own goals is so important. Because if people assign you goals then like your entire learning, your entire mind is hijacked because your mind is trying to make sense of every single thing you consume in alignment with the goals you're pursuing. >> And, you're, saying, you, need, to, be passionate and curious about those goals to fuel consuming properly and build on top of those goals.

>> Yeah., It's, not, as, simple, as, this,, but it's as simple as ensuring that the goals that you pursue were created by you. Makes a lot of sense. For everybody out there listening or watching, I think a great exercise to do is to just here's your two big goals and then just focus for a full week. Anything you consume how does it help you achieve those goals? Something that simple, I think is a great exercise for everyone to do. >> Yeah., And, even, reflect, right, now,, right?

Because think about the things that you're pursuing in life right now. Whether you want to or not, or whether you're conscious of it or not. Are you just going to school? Are you doing what your parents wanted you to do? Whatever. Start questioning it. Just ask, is this leading to the life I want to live? That's the most important question. Is this something that I actually want to do? Is this something that's going to bear fruit? If I were to keep doing the

same things for the next 10 years, where would I end up? And the unfortunate truth is that 90% of the people who do that right now, that practice, they will not like where they're going to end up. And if they really sit with that and if they don't hide from it, and they don't try to avoid it or suppress it, they just become aware of that where they are heading, that will give them enough fuel to think of something else they can pursue or at least a new aim that they can start

working into in the direction of. I feel like the ability to unlearn is actually a huge skill as well. Um, what are some of those kind of big ways that you can start unlearning things? Is it just these different exercises of just taking a step back and deciding your purpose deciding on the things that you don't want? >> Yeah., I'd, love, for, you, to, talk, about, the power of the anti- vision. I know that's something that you talk about a lot in a lot of your content. What does that

actually mean in practice? >> Yeah,, it's, kind, of, inverting, vision., So having a vision for the future, it's an important thing to do. It guides a lot of your life. But you ask a 15-year-old what they want to do, they'll either say something that's way out there, or they'll be like, I actually don't know. Like right now, I'm just supposed to go to college and get a job, and that sounds okay. I'll just go that route. You ask a 20-year-old who's in the job, and it's like, well, if they

don't say, I'm going to work here, or do this, or if they don't know, they're just going to be like, I don't know what I want to do. That's a big problem in today's world. You don't know what your vision is because it's imaginary. It's in the future. It's made up. Right? So a good way to at least start forming that is to really focus on the life that you do not want to live. That is such a powerful practice is what is the lifestyle that disgusts me and go

through the entirety of your life. Sit for 30 minutes alone potentially in a dark room and just think what life do you not want to live? What kind of body do you not want to have? How much money do you want to have or not want to have? How much is not enough? Once you are there, that starts to create this very potent source of negative energy. So, if you can master this process of focusing on something so negative and then taking it, transmuting it into something that's

so positive, you will achieve that positive thing so much faster. >> Makes, a, lot, of, sense., I, feel, like, a, lot of people are like paralyzed by too many different options. I feel like that's a big thing. What is like the the process that an individual goes through? If you're lost, what are those kind of key indicators to understand and know that like you're on the path towards doing something that you're al ultimately meant to do? >> I, think, it, happens, in, three, phases,

right? When you're about to level up there's the dissonance phase, the uncertainty phase, and the discovery phase. The dissonance phase is kind of when you've gotten the taste of the level that you are at right now, right? You've been in it long enough. There's nothing really novel anymore. It feels kind of repetitive and mundane. It's kind of demotivating. And you're thinking like, I don't really want to live this life anymore. And some people don't notice that. But what

right? When you're about to level up there's the dissonance phase, the uncertainty phase, and the discovery phase. The dissonance phase is kind of when you've gotten the taste of the level that you are at right now, right? You've been in it long enough. There's nothing really novel anymore. It feels kind of repetitive and mundane. It's kind of demotivating. And you're thinking like, I don't really want to live this life anymore. And some people don't notice that. But what

naturally comes after that is the uncertainty phase because you don't know what's next. and you're kind of just lost in the unknown. You're like, I don't know what to do. This doesn't sound interesting. This doesn't sound interesting. But if you understand okay, this is the signal that I'm in this season of change. I need to lean into that. So, you just need to start experimenting. That's really it. It's a process of experimentation. Try new

projects. Say yes to everything. the person that invites you out. Even if you don't like going out, go out. Do something bold. Move into a new apartment. Just make some kind of change physically or mentally. Expose yourself to new information, new books. Just do something new, one new thing every single day. If you do that, you will eventually discover something that you can't pull yourself away from. And it'll just pull you in. I wish I could give

some like set of practical steps to go from lost to knowing where you are. But if I were to tell you that you would be doing what I want you to do, not what you want to do. And that's like scary for a lot of people. But really just try, trust the process. Take the leap of faith. It may take 6 months. You may be lost and uncertain for 2 years, but eventually you reach this point of finding something. If you don't attach to the thing that other people want to

assign to you, the status symbols, the credentials, the goals that your parents tell you you should have been achieving you will find at least one thing to pursue. >> And, I, feel, like, these, kind, of, three prongs lend itself to everything. It's ultimately like you're just finding clarity through doing a bunch of stuff basically. >> Yeah., Well,, the, thing, there, is, just, not getting, trapped,, right?, Because, a, lot of

people get trapped in the dissonance phase and they never allow themselves to be uncertain because they are so stuck in doing mode. They're just in this repetitive mundane routine, but they're so numb to it at this point that like they wake up a year later and like I don't remember what I did for the past year. It's like it just all felt like a blur. So if you don't become aware of that, notice that and allow yourself to go into this uncertainty phase to create

that anti- vision that makes you never want to live that life again to kind of slingshot you into the uncertainty phase. And then getting stuck there is even more dangerous cuz then you're not doing anything. For life to be meaningful, you have to be in this continuous state of growth. And that doesn't always involve like achieving new or better things. You could regress technically, but it's just not allowing yourself to decay by staying the same.

>> Yeah., I, say, all, the, time,, I, figured, out my ultimate happiness is directly related to how much I'm growing in all different areas of life. If I'm not growing, I'm absolutely measurable. So I I agree with you there, guys. Quick break. This episode is sponsored by Universal Ads, a division of Comcast. I have spent tens of millions of dollars on meta ads. At one point, it was 95% of my marketing spend. That is super dangerous. With one algorithm shift

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writer. I think for a lot of people listening, there's this like connotation with people that are writers. You definitely, for people out here that are on the audio, not the video, this is like a 65 monster that just walked in. You don't look like a writer. >> You, definitely, do, not, look, like, a writer. I guess at its simplest form like how does someone start their journey with just writing? >> Yeah., Well,, the, 8020, of, my, story, is, that I never wanted to work a 9 toive job. I

writer. I think for a lot of people listening, there's this like connotation with people that are writers. You definitely, for people out here that are on the audio, not the video, this is like a 65 monster that just walked in. You don't look like a writer. >> You, definitely, do, not, look, like, a writer. I guess at its simplest form like how does someone start their journey with just writing? >> Yeah., Well,, the, 8020, of, my, story, is, that I never wanted to work a 9 toive job. I

don't know why. I just saw it as the bane of my existence. It sounded terrible to me. But that led to me just trying all of these different business models and learning whatever I could to avoid that. That was my main goal, just avoid the 9 to5. Wasn't very specific. I failed at all of those business models from dropshipping to agency work to freelancing to digital art to photography. And I ended up having to get a job because I just wasn't making any money. It didn't

work yet. I was in my fourth year of college. I'm like, crap, I can't keep taking out loans. I need to get a job. So, I did that. It was in web design. And while I was there, I the the job was very cushy. I didn't really have to do anything. I kind of just copy pasted website templates and could finish my work in an hour. >> Sounds, like, a, standard, job. >> Exactly., Yeah., But, for, the, first, four, to five hours like at that job, I would just focus on like manual client

outreach. I would try to get clients for freelancing. And as I was learning and studying, that eventually worked. It took a bit, took like eight or nine months. And then I was able to quit the job. As I was doing the freelancing and scrolling Twitter, I started to see people who did what I did. They were freelance web designers. They were writing content. They had a good amount of followers, like 40 to 80,000. And I would see their content and I'm

outreach. I would try to get clients for freelancing. And as I was learning and studying, that eventually worked. It took a bit, took like eight or nine months. And then I was able to quit the job. As I was doing the freelancing and scrolling Twitter, I started to see people who did what I did. They were freelance web designers. They were writing content. They had a good amount of followers, like 40 to 80,000. And I would see their content and I'm

like, I can write this. Like they're saying things that I know. I didn't see it as a lot of people see it getting into the creator space of like, oh they're just saying all of this basic stuff that that sucks. That's meaningless. like they're not viewing it from the lens of a consumer who doesn't know about those things. So, I'm grateful that I could see it like that of like I can write that too. And I remember that I benefited from that type

of information so much. So, I'm going to start. I started and since I had previously failed at all of these different business models and I had slowly stacked like a base level of copyrightiting marketing sales branding, client outreach, all of these different things that kind of overlap in one way or another. I kind of had the gist of how to write something engaging how to grow, how to reach out to people how to build a network, how to kind of

pull myself up along with other people. And then I was able to land clients from that on Twitter of all things and eventually started to transition into what I do today because I didn't really realize at first that you're a writer if you're on Twitter. And so then like people would ask what I do and I would just I would want to avoid the deeper conversation of like talking about it. So I just call myself a writer and that didn't help because people dig deeper into that too. But

that's kind of how I became a writer is I realized I'm writing on Twitter. I'm just going to call myself a writer. Got into the newsletter stuff and then really just fell in love with that process. >> If, someone, is, going, to, kind, of, get, into the space and study the space, what is should they be studying copywriting? Is that something they should be studying? Do you think >> very, good, thing?, Yeah., When, I, say, learn marketing sales writing speaking

it's kind of a difficult thing to do right? you're there's no there's courses on like digital marketing but they're very broad so I do think it is valuable to study a very hypersp specific skill where they have all of the frameworks they have the principles the industry trust and knowledge if you study copywriting you're going to learn 95% of marketing sales and writing and it's going to branch over into speaking >> ultimate, trifecta, right, there, you, learn

all in the form of writing which you can and extend out to other mediums. What about the actual action of writing? As someone that does not write, doesn't physically write much, and doesn't journal much, like what do you recommend to someone out there that wants to get into writing? Should they just freely write on the pages once every day when they wake up in the morning? Like, how should they get into writing? >> Start, with, short, form, on, social, media.

Go on Twitter, on threads maybe not on blue sky, Substack Instagram, just write into an image template and post it. But how do you start doing that? You create a list of 10 people that you love their ideas. They have great writing. It can be an author. It can be someone on social media. It can be a YouTuber. Whatever it is, you're creating this like aspirational idea museum. You have this just list of ideas that stick out to you. And if you refer to that often and look at it

often, it'll the writing patterns will start to like seep into your brain and you'll slowly notice yourself start to write like them more. What I recommend doing from there is find a few posts let's say five posts that are very engaging from them, that have gotten a lot of engagement, and you're just going to sit down and you're going to write five points for each of those posts as to why they did so well. And you're just going to brainstorm, reverse engineer

and that is how you're going to learn how to write. Now, you're not going to look at the posts anymore. You're going to take that big list of why those posts worked and you're going to take your own ideas and you're going to try and follow those points and you're going to write five posts of your own without looking at the ideas of the previous ones. That's an important part. Then you're going to post those, see if they do okay, and then start refining and

iterating. After that, and only after you've done it manually, I would recommend you take the five posts that you were inspired by. You're going to paste those into AI and then you're going to ask them to break it down and teach you how to write those. Wow. And then it's going to spit out this mega guide. Tell it to create a mega guide on how to write very high engaging tweets. They're not going to be templatized. They're, not, going to, be, whatever., It's

iterating. After that, and only after you've done it manually, I would recommend you take the five posts that you were inspired by. You're going to paste those into AI and then you're going to ask them to break it down and teach you how to write those. Wow. And then it's going to spit out this mega guide. Tell it to create a mega guide on how to write very high engaging tweets. They're not going to be templatized. They're, not, going to, be, whatever., It's

going to break down the psychology. It's going to break down the principles. And now anytime you write tweets, refer to that first. You just kind of self-created your own course there and then you go about that and you can just rinse and repeat, right? You just did that with five posts that you were inspired by. Do it with the next five and the next five and the next five. Do that for a month and you will feel very competent, as, a, writer, at least, in, short

form. Long form you can do the same thing but just do it with one newsletter. >> That's, amazing, advice, to, give, to anybody. I so ultimately that comes down to really just your taste and the subject matter and then you're just dissecting the rationale and reason why anything is working and you're just plugging them in together using chat GBT or something like that. >> Yep., Pretty, much. >> Wow., That's, something, good, that, anybody can use. I want to get into a little bit

form. Long form you can do the same thing but just do it with one newsletter. >> That's, amazing, advice, to, give, to anybody. I so ultimately that comes down to really just your taste and the subject matter and then you're just dissecting the rationale and reason why anything is working and you're just plugging them in together using chat GBT or something like that. >> Yep., Pretty, much. >> Wow., That's, something, good, that, anybody can use. I want to get into a little bit

more about like personal brands. I've seen you say some pretty controversial stuff online about how personal brands are like no longer personal. What is your thoughts on just the climate of personal brands in 2025? >> I, feel, like, people, get, into, it, because they want to do something meaningful and then they just get trapped in the personal brand rat race. They want to get out of a 9 to5 and they build themselves into a new 9 to5 and it's

like this isn't why you started writing. This isn't why you started creating on YouTube. And people can notice, everyone can notice that if you go on YouTube it's starting to become homogenized which isn't a very big problem, right? Like all the cars look the same. Like there's very minimal difference. And like the cars you see on the street even the super nice ones, they all have the same shape because that's the most effective and efficacious way of like

creating a car. But in YouTube videos and social media content and personal branding, that's also the case. But what I would encourage that you do is try to again reverse engineer and dissect why a personal brand or a YouTube video does so well and then take your most interesting ideas. Take the ideas that made you want to start as a personal brand and fit it into those principles. But like it's difficult. But you have to get used to posting things that will probably be

duds. They won't go anywhere. But once you experiment enough and you listen to enough feedback, that's how you create kind of your own launchpad and then you aren't so dependent on the templates or copying other people's titles or thumbnails or other things of that nature because it's all just natural to you at that point. >> Is, there, any, other, elements, just, on, the content side that you've seen perform very well? Obviously, we've talked about storytelling is a big element. Are there

duds. They won't go anywhere. But once you experiment enough and you listen to enough feedback, that's how you create kind of your own launchpad and then you aren't so dependent on the templates or copying other people's titles or thumbnails or other things of that nature because it's all just natural to you at that point. >> Is, there, any, other, elements, just, on, the content side that you've seen perform very well? Obviously, we've talked about storytelling is a big element. Are there

other kind of key variables that you see are common throughout all the different types of content that perform well for you? Is there anything that you see um that's a big driver? >> Yeah,, novel, perspectives, are, a, big, one. I feel like if I do not write a newsletter or create a YouTube video that teaches someone something new then it doesn't do well. What I'm trying to do is usually provide this big insight that people aren't looking for because the the video can be about, oh

here's how you start a business. Here's how you make a ton of money. Here's how you start writing. But before any of that, before I get into any of the steps of doing that, I hit them with like something from physics or something from philosophy or something from psychology that I feel like is so rare that once they read it, that's enough, right? That sticks with them for their entire life. And >> we, mentioned, that, on, your, YouTube videos, which I thought was so unique

is you start with this social proofing of some sort of quote from someone Yeah. >> that, is, very, high, up, in, their, space., And it's vague in nature, but it just it starts the video off with like a curiosity gap. >> Yeah., In, terms, of, content, creation, as, a whole, curation is such a big skill. Like if you can just get in the habit of when you see this good idea that you wish you wrote, write it down screenshot it, add it to a Google doc or your notes, save it somewhere and try to

turn that into some form of different content or include it in some form of long form content, be it a newsletter or whatever it may be, write about that topic. If I see a great quote that like I just love that, I'm going to take that. I'm gonna throw that at the top of my newsletter. That's the topic. And now I'm just gonna outline the rest of it and write that out. And you'll be surprised like how well those do because if an idea, as mentioned before, is so

interesting to you. Your job is to transmit that interest to someone else. What about from an aesthetic perspective? I look at your brand, I think black, I think white. I think uniformity throughout. How does aesthetic play into your into brand building for you? >> It, played, in, a, lot, more, when, I, was, doing those animations, the reels. Now, it's kind of just simplicity. It's kind of like a copout, honestly. It's like why

Steve Jobs only wore a black shirt and light pants. It's because it allows me to focus on the ideas. I feel like that's the major mover. And if I don't have to make any other branding decisions, we have the font, we have black and white, simple. I just focused on the writing, getting the content out. >> You, keep, talking, about, ideas., I, feel like you're an idea machine. It reminds me of Orin. He's another idea machine. How do you not burn out from creating? I

mean, you put out a ton of content. Is it just intentionally consuming in dedicated hours or what does that look like for you? >> Yeah,, it's, kind, of, baked, into, my, life, at this point. Like I go on walks one to three times a day. I'm either listening to a YouTube lecture or an audiobook or something of that nature. I'm not always taking a bunch of notes. I'm kind of just letting the information circulate in my head. Sometimes I'm not even

paying attention to it, but I do try to keep a constant inflow of the ideas that I want in my head. Right? Cuz any information you expose yourself to is going to shape your mind in some way. I want it to be shaped in a good way. And so that's a routine is just conscious and intentional and curated learning or information or consumption because then that is going to especially when you're not working. I like to think of in general the mind working in two

ways. There's productivity mode and there's creativity mode. There's narrow focus, there's open focus. Both of those come with vastly different characteristics. when you're very narrow focused on a task for productivity you're not really having these creative breakthrough ideas or thoughts. And so if people get stuck in that mode then their work is going to start to suffer from that unless their work is very repetitive and mundane. So that

ways. There's productivity mode and there's creativity mode. There's narrow focus, there's open focus. Both of those come with vastly different characteristics. when you're very narrow focused on a task for productivity you're not really having these creative breakthrough ideas or thoughts. And so if people get stuck in that mode then their work is going to start to suffer from that unless their work is very repetitive and mundane. So that

maybe that's a way to tell whether you are doing meaningful work or not is is my work suffering from a lack of rest? If it's not suffering then the work isn't too creative and you're not in too much control over it. And it's kind of like an assembly line style of work. Now, the creativity state of mind is more open, not really focused on anything really. It's when you're on a walk. It's when you're not at work. And that's what creates space for emergence in your head is when you're

not thinking about anything. When you're in the shower, that's when your best thoughts come to mind. And so being able to incorporate or have blocks of time for each of those in your day is in my eyes a very important thing to do. Darwin as an example, dude wrote 19 books in his lifetime. He worked 3 to four hours a day. He created the theory of evolution. Like everyone knows who Darwin is. He had a very lax life. Like he had the intense bursts of focused

work and then he'd go on a walk. He'd read letters from fans. He would spend time with his family. He'd play games at night. He would just like not focus on work. And to a blind eye, it looks like all of the work is done in those 3 to four hours. It's all day because that's his life's work. Let's get into routine. You're very much known for deep work and everything around that. What does a day look like for you? And you can kind of disseminate it between the deep work

the productivity, the creativity. What does it look like for you? >> Yeah. I sometimes it shifts, so I'll just go over the average day. I wake up around 5:00 a.m., sometimes 4:00, sometimes 6:00. I take out the dog and then go straight on a walk. It's usually about 30 minutes. I don't really listen to much during this time. It's kind of just like, "Hey, body, you're awake." And then >> the, caffeine, yet? >> No. >> Okay. >> Not, because, it's, like, beneficial, not, to

or anything. I think that was debunked about like the whole adenosine like don't drink coffee the first 30 minutes of your day. It's just cuz I want to maximize the caffeine for my work and drinking it like at I like the coffee as I'm sitting down. It's like a natural thing. >> He's, saving, his, milligrams, for, optimal optimal deep work. I'm with you on that too, bro. I have a max amount for the day and I'm like I'm waiting for this. I'm holding it off until I need it.

or anything. I think that was debunked about like the whole adenosine like don't drink coffee the first 30 minutes of your day. It's just cuz I want to maximize the caffeine for my work and drinking it like at I like the coffee as I'm sitting down. It's like a natural thing. >> He's, saving, his, milligrams, for, optimal optimal deep work. I'm with you on that too, bro. I have a max amount for the day and I'm like I'm waiting for this. I'm holding it off until I need it.

>> Yeah,, exactly., So, 30-m, minute, walk,, come home, shower, and then get straight into about two hours of writing. That writing consists of usually three social media posts, and then one section of the newsletter. That's really it. One day out of the week, I'll record the YouTube video. So you mentioned earlier like oh, you put out so much content. It's really just the consistency deal where the three posts a day on Twitter, then I take the best one, post it on Instagram

post on threads, post on Substack, post it wherever. The newsletter creates the outline for my YouTube video and then the YouTube video also gets posted to a podcast platform. So I have covered all social media platforms with three posts a day and writing for about 30 to 60 minutes of the newsletter and then that's the core of my business in a sense. >> Let's, stop, there, for, a, second, before, we get into the rest of the day. So three tweets best performing tweet then

becomes a central thesis for your single post on other platforms and the main theme of something longer. >> Yes,, it, can, be, the, main, theme, of something longer. That's mostly the case. Other times, I'll pull from like the curated list of ideas that I have that I mentioned earlier of like if I really liked an idea from someone else and I really want to write about it I'll just throw that one in. So, no real structure there. It's like once I send

the newsletter and have to write the next one, I kind of just like think for a bit, look through my notes, look through my tweets, pick one that I actually want to write about, and then write that. So two hours of deep work where you are writing, you're creating. Tell us about the rest of the day. >> Yep., After, that,, I'll, eat, and, then, go, on a walk. And on that walk is more dedicated to intentional learning. How I do that most of the time is on YouTube.

I just go to my watch later and I always add stuff to that and I'll just look for something that I find interesting and post it. So, I don't really like consume randomly on social media. It's very intentional where I'll scroll on the timeline, but I never really watch something. If something catches my eye I just add it to watch later. Or if I see something posted on Instagram or Twitter, I'll go to the video, add to watch later. So, when I go on my walk, I

can just see that there. If I'm reading a book, sometimes I'll read from my phone on the walk. Probably not the best practice, but you get a lot of reading in an audio book. Sometimes if it's like something I really want to listen to and that's when I'll take a lot of notes. So if an idea sticks out, I'll pull out my phone, take the note. That usually sparks more ideas and it helps me notice more ideas later in the walk. So the sooner you can take an idea when you're

on the walk, the more you're going to have throughout the walk. That's an important point and it's very helpful because you can go through the entire walk and not get anything from it. You're just saying write down something sooner than later to initiate. Yes. Like getting the ball down the field. >> Yes., And, it, works, really, well. >> Guys,, he, just, looked, at, me, with, a, very very serious face there. Definitely. That's definitely like a random cheat

code that you've tested tried and true there. >> Yeah., I, I, say, that, because, like, this isn't this routine thing. It sounds very stable and consistent as we're saying it, but I get knocked off track all the time. like my second walk of the day. Sometimes I'm walking and I like get back to my house and I'm like, did I even like go on the walk? Like I just lose track. And of course when I notice that, I want to get back to like the very effective and impactful walks. And

so I've noticed over time that if I the sooner I take note of an idea, the more come to mind as I'm doing it because something in the brain >> that, creates, the, filter, and, like, the template for the rest of the information that you process. What about the rest of the day? I have this weird inkling that like there's not much marketing and sales and it's just done through the content. But you do this deep block and now now it's it's I don't know mid late afternoon. Where you at?

>> Yeah,, I, go, to, the, gym., After, that,, I'll eat again. I'm eating a lot nowadays trying to grow. But throughout this entire time and later into the day, it's kind of like very chaotic, distracted work of like responding on Slack and responding to people on Telegram. It's a lot of communication cuz that's kind of what most of the work has become for me now. And if something does come to mind that I need to do, I'll do one of two things. I'll either take note of it so

that I can do it in the morning work block or if it's very important, I'll just sit down and start doing it. So the I'd say from like 2:00 to 5:00 is very free flow. And after that, usually go to dinner at around 5:00. They used to be really nice dinners and now that I'm getting a bit more strict about my diet it's like protein house which is just like clean eating. Then after that spend time with fiance and usually that's like when I'm offline. I try try to create

like a hard stop at like 7 and just not respond to anything. It can wait for the morning. >> That's, insane, that, you're, looked, at, as someone that puts out a lot of content. You're consistent and it's not that crazy. Um it's not. So, what do you think is like the real secret to being disciplined? You seem like a very disciplined individual. >> It's, been, a, lot, because, I, I, think discipline is a feature of identity. A

lot of people just go through the motions. They go to school, they study they get the job. You're arguably disciplined. You're reaching new milestones in your life. A gamer, for example, I used to be a gamer, is I would like just be waiting to get home log on, and start playing. And it's like if that's not the definition of discipline, I don't know what is. Right? Especially like the way to notice this is what are you doing that is

frictionless right now? Is it eating the junk food? Is it like bad things or is it good things? That's discipline. You just need to learn how to deconstruct what got you there and then put it in the other direction. So the way we do this is that anti-vision practice. It's questioning where are my actions taking me? If I keep doing the same things where am I going to end up in 10 years? From there, from that negative source of energy, it's like if you actually become

aware of it, if you are not disgusted with that, you're doing it wrong. Like just continue sitting with it until you really become aware of it because you will reach this point of like that is not I'm not going to allow myself to get there. Once you reach that, that's the point, the inflection point of identity change. That's when you can start to move in this new direction. Is it going to be super easy the first time around? Probably not. Are you going to relapse and regress and

have to bounce back and forth? Like there's no easy way to do this. It's going to require a lot of pain because if you think of your identity as like a house, like a literal, that's what an identity is. It's this mental body. If you were to rip out the foundation of that house, it's just going to come collapsing down. Your mind doesn't want you to do that, right? That's when the negative thoughts and worries start to come into play because it's telling you

not to do that. It wants to stay the same. It's a survival mechanism. So what you need to do is you need to take it step by step and you need to understand if you understand that you are damaging a house so that you can repair it. The pain isn't going to be as painful throughout that change. So when you start moving in a new direction, you can move with that perspective in mind and you have this bane of your existence anti- vision that you are like holding in the back of your

mind to keep you on the right path until it becomes natural the new way of life that you're creating. >> How, much, does, an, environment, play, a, role in this kind of whole entire ethos of being this >> a, lot., There's, this, broken, windows theory where there was a area with broken windows in the buildings like a city. In the other area there was clean windows and they tested it and the broken windows area just had naturally higher crime rates just because that was

the environment they were in. The clean windows people wanted to keep it clean. So, it's like that's a throwaway study that could potentially have some like cool ideas with it. But if you like you can just see it. If you have a room that's extremely messy or you're surrounding yourself with people that aren't where you want to be in life naturally that's going to seep into you. >> Yeah., And, that, goes, for, people,, that goes for the content you consume. I

mean, that goes for anything and everything. Guys, this episode is sponsored by ManyHat, the tool that is quietly powering all those comment to DM posts that you guys are seeing across Instagram. I am personally a power user of ManyHat. I absolutely love it. I use it for my personal brand, the podcast and Iconic. When we started using it Iconic was doing 8.5 million impressions a month. We're now doing over 20 million impressions a month. It boosts

engagement. It drives more reach. It allows you to collect emails and segment them with crazy precision. In short, you create a customized experience and you can collect data. They're Meta's official business partner, trusted by over a million accounts and it's free for your first thousand contacts. The links below in the description start turning your comments into conversations. We had talked a bit off camera. I mean you're in deep work and you're kind of

working by yourself a lot. I know you're working on a bunch of new projects which we'll get into. from like a business perspective, you know, you've built this brand over time as basically like a you could say it like a one-man team. With AI coming, obviously like the fundamentals of business are going to kind of change a bit. What do you think are those core skills that are always going to be necessary to win in business now that AI is coming? Having your own unique process.

The way I would illustrate that is anyone can go into AI right now and just ask like, "Hey, write me a viral YouTube script and that may get them some kind of result, but they didn't earn that knowledge or experience." But if you take a step back and look at the YouTube space, you have Alex Hermoszi, you have Ali Abdal, you have people in the gaming space, people in the podcasting space whatever it is. If you were to take each of them and ask them what their process

is, they would give you somewhat similar answers, but they would still be very much different and unique to them. That alone should tell you that there is no one right way to do it, right? And AI cannot give you that one right way because it doesn't exist. you have to create it. And if you continuously rely on AI to give you the one best way, you don't know how to adapt and people will still outperform you. So being able to I guess, do things the manual way

without AI is going to be even more important because if you can do that then you can use AI much more effectively. You take Alex Hormosi and you tell him, "Hey, feed the AI everything that you know about YouTube. feed it your entire process, create a prompt about that, then it's going to create videos like Alex Herozi. But someone who isn't Alex Herozi can't do that down to the detail. So if you have your own process, you have your own way of doing things that you've done

manually and then you can pass that off to AI or create a prompt. A prompt, the prompt is the new employee. Once you have enough of those, then you are orchestrating. You're you're not the doer, you're the orchestrator. I think you just said the key word there. I think like the future, one of the most valuable positions in the world is going to be just like a prompt engineer. Is there any kind of processes that you go through to become better at

prompting? Like how would you recommend someone to become better at prompting that's listening? It depends on what you want to do. If you're trying to perform a specific task or have AI do something for you, do not be okay with the default answer that AI gives. Like if you just think about it, if I ask AI to write me a YouTube script or a tweet, it's going to pull from all of this knowledge across the internet is probably going to give you something that is okay, but

prompting? Like how would you recommend someone to become better at prompting that's listening? It depends on what you want to do. If you're trying to perform a specific task or have AI do something for you, do not be okay with the default answer that AI gives. Like if you just think about it, if I ask AI to write me a YouTube script or a tweet, it's going to pull from all of this knowledge across the internet is probably going to give you something that is okay, but

it's just okay. It's not exceptional. It's not unique in any way. If you're just asking a question or you're researching, that's a bit easier to do right? You know whether or not the information that you're getting back is good. So, when you're actually trying to do something, you're trying to pass off work, you're trying to turn the AI into some form of like micro employee, what I recommend doing, and the first thing that you need is an SOP in a sense. You

need to be able to create an extremely detailed set of instructions so that the AI can follow it to a tea. How do you get those things? One way is just doing it manually until you're able to teach the AI how to do some how to do that. When I first started using AI, I'm glad that I was already able to write newsletters and write tweets because when I really like discovered the power of it, I created like it was this about 2,000word just set of instructions for

how I write tweets. It started as a small prompt and I'm like AI can't write tweets. Then I got more specific and I'm like, "Oh, that's a bit better. Okay let me provide some examples. Let me provide a bit of what not to do, what to do." And slowly and slowly that set of instructions just got bigger and bigger until it almost matched me. And I was okay with that because it'll only continue to get better. The other way you can do it that isn't manually is

find someone who is an expert. Right? This is a beautiful thing because it allows you to focus on your craft. If I'm a writer and I don't really care about marketing or writing copy for landing pages anymore. I can go to Eugene Schwarz or Alex Herozi or someone who has taught that before. I can take what they've taught or take an example. So let's say Alex Herozy's landing page. I can copy paste that entire thing paste it into AI, tell the AI break down

exactly why this works. What are the psychological tactics? What are the core principles? Teach me, create a mega guide on how to replicate this step by step. It'll spit out in a crazy amount of detail how to write that landing page. And then what I can do there is I can take it and I can say, I want to turn this into a prompt that interviews me for all the contacts you'll need to create a landing page just like this according to these instructions that you just spit out.

Then you can refine that prompt over time until it's like very good. So what it would do then is I would send the output prompt and it would ask, okay who's your target audience? What's your offer? What ideas do you want to include in this? so on and so forth until it has enough to create a very good landing page that if you hadn't studied copyrightiting before, you have a superpower now cuz you just shaved off 5 years of learning. You can still focus

on the thing that you love to do and your business sees a good amount of results from it. >> I, think, the, key, thing, you, said, there wasn't about, hey, copy this landing page from Hermosi. It's about you taking the idea, the curation, but then just disseminating all the structure and principles and best use cases from someone else. >> Yeah., Because, you, learn, very, quickly from that >> right?, You, don't, have, to, take, an, Alex Hormosi course to learn from Alex

Hormosi anymore because you can just paste all of his stuff into AI and say "Hey, teach me how to do this." >> Sorry, about, that,, guys., Some, of those people were writing some big checks to him. I don't even know how to do it. $100 million was absolutely crazy. What about the actual tools behind this? I mean, everybody knows about the chat GBTs and the clouds of the world. What's your tool stack from an AI perspective? >> Mostly, Claude., If, I, can't, do, it, in

Claude, then I tend not to do it, right? I that may also just be me not trying different apps cuz I'm sure a lot of them are very powerful, but I feel like especially as a writer, I can do most of it in Claude. >> Yeah., For, people, out, there, listening,, I mean, you tell me if you agree or not. I think as of recently, Claude is substantially better than Chat GBT from an ideas, a writing, and even a deep research. It seems to be better for me than chat GBT.

>> I, do, like, it, for, deep, research., One thing that I don't like about it now is with Sonnet 4.5, I had this prompt where I'm like, I learn best when people talk like harshly to me or give me like the hard truth. And I was like, "Okay, be as brutal as possible. just like I'm going to tell you this, this, and this, and you I guess like re me as to why this is bad. And it's like, I don't feel comfortable doing this. We're done here. Like, I'm not going to do

>> very, polite., I, I I, did, notice, that yesterday when I was using it was polite and it wasn't giving me the answers that I wanted because it was saying it was unethical to give me the answers. I didn't like that. >> Yeah,, it's, bad, because, then, it's, like you're not in control of the super intelligence. >> Yeah., I, also, saw, that, they, chat, GBT, is removing anything from a health or a legal perspective. Any advice? I I saw a

lot of people angry about that. I I don't know if that's a good or bad thing. I think it's a good thing because Open AI is a company. A company has bias and that bias seeps into the intelligence that it's distributing to the world. And as we know the hell space is very polarizing and no one side is really correct. There's no like objective truth. So it seems, but if the AI if the bias of the company somehow seeps into the AI and it does think

there is an objective truth for health that can be pretty dangerous and maybe life-threatening in some cases. So I could see that being as a bad thing if the AI were truly free and bias free which is difficult. Maybe Grock can handle, that., At least, that's, what, Elon says his mission is. Then it's very powerful for obvious reasons. I think it's bad because I mean it's obviously subjective in nature and deciding what should or shouldn't be on there like

them saying you know health and law are the two things that we take off. I think that just that in general >> is, saying, that, they, are, the, ruler, of, the world and decide what goes on there or not. So >> yeah, that's, a, bigger, conversation, on, the business side. I know that you've had a bunch of different offers and books and companies. I guess I' I'd first like to start. I look at you a writer, an entrepreneur, definitely as a content creator. What is the business model that

you have seen provide the most fulfillment to you over the years? >> Oo,, not, client, work,, that's, for, sure., In terms of like the one-man show side of things, I really like cohorts. Cohorts specifically because you only do them like once every quarter. When I say cohort, I mean like a cohort based course. I know there's a lot of talk about whether courses are bad or not but I think they most of the time they're good. There's obviously bad

actors, whatever it may be. But if you have something valuable to offer and you want to go that route, I like the cohort-based course approach because one, it's a limited amount of time. It's like 8 weeks long. It only happens every quarter, so you don't have to fake or you're not tempted to fake any kind of scarcity. It's like you enroll at this date or you don't get in. It's closed right? So that encourages people to join. It's a real kind of scarcity. Most

of the time you bake live calls into it. You have some form of curriculum with it. It like bakes these seasons of intensity into your life because it's like every quarter you know you're going to be doing this launch and you have to launch really well because if you're only doing the cohort model then your income is kind of dependent on that. That's what I enjoy the most. And now that I'm kind of through that, I do like books, but unless you sell a ton, it's

like $20 book. You have to sell a ton of those in order to be profitable. But I'm just now getting into like managing a team of more than eight to 10 people and learning a lot there. So, I don't have any lessons or insights yet. I'm kind of just learning on the job. on that oneperson team. Was it a oneperson team or I mean it seems as though from a you know like a it's just face the camera on YouTube and it seems like you're writing the words like what are those necessary

hires for someone that's building out a one or a small man team? >> Yeah., So, it, was, a, completely, one, person business from when I started on Twitter to when I was at like 80,000 followers. The revenue amount that may not be set in stone. and I know people can take it much further than I did as one person especially if you only focus on writing was about 50,000 a month for me. That's when I was like, "Okay, now I actually feel comfortable hiring someone cuz I'd

never done that before either." And I brought my friend, editor, and support guy Devon on. So, it's just us two. At least for my brand right now. It's been us two for a long time. And yeah, beyond that, if I had never done YouTube and only stuck with writing, I probably could have taken it pretty freaking far as one person, but editing is just another beast. Even simple edits, dude. It's like I can't do that on my own.

>> Uh,, I, want, to, go, I, want, to, go, deeper into that. So, $50,000 by yourself, you brought on your friends. How that $50,000, what was the revenue model there? Was it YouTube AdSense? Was it brand deals? What did that look like? >> No,, that, was, mostly, my, own, stuff., So,, it was marketing consulting, which was they're all kind of the same thing. It was me helping people with writing branding, marketing, things that I'd done before. That was like my natural

pivot out of web design into something that I thought was more valuable is like the evolution of it. Because with web design, at least then I knew I could probably charge more now knowing what I know. But back then, I'm like, if I just pivot into some kind of helping people build out funnels or landing pages, some kind of consulting model where I can take on more people and charge a bit more because I I know how to position the value of that better. That was like

the majority of it. That's also when I had started the modern mastery community, which was like a big thing for me back then. got that to it was like 3,000 members at 27 a month at one time. Not back then, as it grew. And then that's mainly it. Those were the main revenue sources. >> Tell, us, about, those, big, learnings, there. You had 3,000 people at low ticket, 27 a month. >> Communities, are, hard, and, everyone, tells you to start a community, but they come

along with so much. They can be a very fulfilling thing and it's very fun to be able to interact with so many cool people. But there are inherent limitations where recurring revenue means recurring work. And the larger the community grows and the more active it is, you obviously want it to be more active, the more time you're going to have to spend in there. And if you're doing this as one person or even a small team, you may have to bring people on earlier than you thought you

would and your time is going to be pulled away from what you like to do. For me, the northstar or like the magnet that I kept getting pulled back to is like, is the quality of my writing suffering? If yes, something needs to be stripped down or removed so that I can get that back because that's the backbone of everything that I do and my entire life like quality of life learning thinking etc. with communities. People are so enticed by the recurring revenue model

but it's not as high converting because people are less likely to want to subscribe to something that isn't tangible or something of that nature. So, what I had to do is I had to get very creative with how I promoted. And since I launched this when I was only on Twitter and only had about like 40 or 50,000 followers at the time, I knew that like I wasn't going to be able to blow it up and make a ton of money immediately. So, I took a very tiered

approach where I started very low ticket. I'm talking like seven bucks a month just to get the first like 150 people in and then after that increase the price to like $14.99 a month and then to 20 and then to 27 and throughout all of those those are like moments of scarcity right so that's when I'm promoting my hardest is like hey price is going to increase so it's like these tiered approach the urgency helped get people in and it made them want to

participate and not cancel because if they cancelled they're not going to get their rate back, right? So, it's like me as a smaller account trying to make this work is get people in, get the testimonials, flex those testimonials increase the price as it's getting more valuable because the community is also growing with people and information. And then when I was at 27 a month, what I would do on some YouTube videos and some newsletters is I would have a deal where

I had the first month for five bucks. So people would join and then they'd see the value and five bucks isn't a huge commitment. So what I find people make a lot of mistakes there is they set a pretty high price and then they have no wiggle room because they can't bring it down once people are already paying that price. Right? So my advice is like start very low, get people in, provide a lot of value, make it so your community is valuable, get the testimonials and then

you can flex those for life. Under the notion with what you said earlier about Hermosi,, a, lot, of these, courses, and communities are very information based and with the future coming with AI what's your just overall thesis on just courses and community, what is it going to take to actually win in that space? >> This, may, be, controversial,, but, I, don't think it'll change all that much. Why? >> Because, it, hasn't, changed, that, much. Like the when we see AI content, like

some of it's actually pretty good. Some of it's obvious slop and you're like why is this on my screen? But a lot of it that you see, it's like you're not even thinking about the AI content. You're thinking about the person who created this is kind of a genius. Like I see the the Sora created videos and I'm like, damn, that's a good idea. Like I wish I could create something like that with AI. The AI isn't just creating things on its own. The AI needs a

creator in order to execute a specific vision for the brand, right? Doesn't really matter if it's AI or not. It matters whether or not the vision resonates with you. So, the thing there as well is that people don't know what they want and they don't know what they should be searching for. It doesn't matter if AI has all of the information in the world if people don't know what to search for or what to learn or what to look for. So the creator, the person

who has the vision that he's leading his followers towards has a product or service or whatever it is that helps them get from point A to point B. If you think that everyone is just going to go and ask AI for all of the information in that course or that product or that community, like that's just not going to happen cuz they're not even aware that that community exists, right? They're still going to join it for convenience because the creator is the only person

who could put the information in that community in the first place. >> Yeah., Yeah., I, mean,, I, also, think, a, lot of people need and want accountability but I also just think obviously like brand and lore and people just want to be closer to someone like you. >> So,, what, are, you, most, excited, about, from a business perspective that you have in your plate now? As much or as little as you want to share. >> I, mean,, both, of, the, ventures,, so software venture Eden and neutropic

venture, Sl. exciting. But the one thing that I really like about them is I feel like I'm reaching a point that my past self would be proud of, if that makes sense, where I've always seen entrepreneurship as like a vessel for personal growth. And so I could have very well just stayed as a oneperson business, stayed at a certain level of revenue per month or per year, but that kind of also reflects how much my mind has grown. So like taking the leap and

venture, Sl. exciting. But the one thing that I really like about them is I feel like I'm reaching a point that my past self would be proud of, if that makes sense, where I've always seen entrepreneurship as like a vessel for personal growth. And so I could have very well just stayed as a oneperson business, stayed at a certain level of revenue per month or per year, but that kind of also reflects how much my mind has grown. So like taking the leap and

learning how to hire like taking on these new responsibilities in bigger companies is like I can feel myself growing into those positions and that's the most exciting thing. Like obviously the potential of those things and the money from those things are very exciting but I have to become a certain person in order for that to happen. >> And, you, think, is, it, is, it, almost, about forcing yourself into that position to do that? It was for for the neutropic

one that's like something I've kind of always wanted to do. It's something that's always fascinated me. For the software one that comes with like a lot of cultural baggage I feel like especially the startup space like I don't know why for me like the word startup kind of just makes me cringe because it fills me with all of this like tech lingo and things that you're supposed to do and Peter Teal telling you to go from 0 to one and all of these

things. cuz it feels like it's just so clogged with these ideas that may or may not work and my big thing is like I want to figure it out on my own and take a unique path. So that's what I'm trying to instill in the team. But that is yeah that was the biggest like leap I would say is I know how much effort and failure is going to be involved with that company specifically >> and, I, would, imagine, there's, a, probably, a

things. cuz it feels like it's just so clogged with these ideas that may or may not work and my big thing is like I want to figure it out on my own and take a unique path. So that's what I'm trying to instill in the team. But that is yeah that was the biggest like leap I would say is I know how much effort and failure is going to be involved with that company specifically >> and, I, would, imagine, there's, a, probably, a

heavy capital investment as well too you're putting in >> from, yeah >> a, ton, of, money >> it's, been, yeah, it's, been, like, from myself it's been around I think like 2.5 million >> what, the well it's been a lot of freaking failure man And then like from the software itself and what we did to initially launch it like we had a writer's boot camp that helped us fund it initially. I think total over 3 years it's been like

4 million and just a bunch of mistakes. You you'll okay so preface as well for people watching is Eden the new software started as Cortex. Like Eden is the evolution of Cortex. With Cortex, the way we initially built it was just bad. We got stuck two years after building it, just in the trenches of like maintenance, bug fixes, not really able to make much progress and the devs could go deeper into the technical problems that we had there. But it was just a

mistake, not building the software, but how we built it. And so when we decided to pivot to Eden and rebuild the prototype, it was just going to be a rebuild of Cortex. But the like new branding, the new ideas, the new potential for how far it could go, the new features, etc. led to it being a new name and everything else along with that. But yeah, it was definitely a lot of money simply because we are figuring it out on our own and I'm pretty

stubborn about not taking VC money yet. >> When, does, that, come, out?, We're, going, to la we're going to open it on Black Friday only that weekend and then we're going to close it until probably late January early February for full public launch. So web version, Black Fridayish desktop, mobile, very polished experience, end of January, early February hopefully could get push back. >> Nice., We'll, put, a, link, in, the

description for that. I want to fire away ton of random questions that I have some from some people on Instagram as well too. I guess let's start with is happiness a skill? Yes. I also think happiness is a perspective because happiness specifically doesn't make sense without sadness. I know that sounds like some little cute fortune cookie type thing, but really think about it. Like unless you have been sad in your life, you cannot be happy. like

it just doesn't make sense because you don't have that reference point, right? It's gonna sound weird, but if you want to be happier, you have to embrace sadness more. Maybe not just sadness, but the negative aspects of life. >> That, was, a, deep, answer., Um,, I, know you've tried dopamine detoxes before. What's the biggest change you've noticed in yourself when you do those? The best way I can do it is you feel like you feel more like a child again and really

think back to that like when you felt like a child. I always I've been referencing this more and more in my own life. I feel like with us with ambitious people, we get very just trapped in our projects and goals. That's all we really think about, right? I remember when I was a kid and you'd go to like Chuck-E-Cheese and it would be so freaking amazing. Like it's like you like your mind blown and you're just so immersed in like how cool things are.

And I feel like we've lost that. Like we don't see things as cool. We go into Chuck-E-Cheese and it's like this is disgusting. Like get me out of here. Like it's just all dirty and gross. And like as kids like colors were brighter. Everything was so novel. And that's kind of what I'm trying to get back to is just being able to appreciate the small things in life as cliche as that sounds again because it's still there, right? like you can still tap into it and I see

that as such a huge boost to your quality of life is finding just anything that you can look at or pay attention to can become the most interesting thing in the world if you see it that way. So the dopamine detox or just learning how to be bored again is one way to get closer to that point. Yeah, I was going to ask you why is you know boredom and discomfort I think is very important and Naval has said before like the wealthiest man is someone that could sit

alone with his thoughts for a long time. That's interesting. I want to keep going on some of these. You talk a lot about pursuing both vertical and horizontal development. How can someone do that in practice? >> Yeah., So, if, we, were, to, lay, this, out, remember how I mentioned there's the three phases to kind of getting to a new level of development. There's the dissonance, uncertainty, and discovery phase. Before you get into the distance phase, you have to get your taste of the

level that you're at. So if you were to go to a new level, then that's new to you and you need to do this kind of horizontal development of experiencing what that level is like. you start a new job, you need to acclimate to the job. You need to meet the people on the job. You need to get used to the task that you're doing. You need to upskill a little bit, right? That provides a little bit of challenge, a little bit of growth, a little bit of development. But

then that's what allows you to create that vertical development closing into the next level. Because once you get the taste of that level or become very experienced then that's when you can reach a point of like it being mundane and repetitive because it the challenge and novelty just starts to wear off and that's when you start to go through the vertical development phase. So horizontal development is more like practical skill acquisition. Vertical development is

more mental. basically saying that you just need to fully consume anything and everything on each level before you can go to the next level. >> Yes., How, can, someone, use, tactical, stress to speed up learning? The way I can illustrate this is if you've ever had a real deadline you know how much you can get done in such a short amount of time. And I'm talking like a real deadline. You need something done in a week. You're going to learn and do it in a week.

more mental. basically saying that you just need to fully consume anything and everything on each level before you can go to the next level. >> Yes., How, can, someone, use, tactical, stress to speed up learning? The way I can illustrate this is if you've ever had a real deadline you know how much you can get done in such a short amount of time. And I'm talking like a real deadline. You need something done in a week. You're going to learn and do it in a week.

Parkinson's law, whatever you'll call it. But your mind is such a magnet for learning. It's just a sponge ready to soak things up when you have that project deadline due. A lot of people don't have that deadline. So, you kind of have to force yourself into a situation where that deadline exists. For myself, one way of doing that was moving into an apartment that I couldn't afford for fueling the growth of my business at the time because I knew I

was capable of reaching that. I knew that other people done it before. So when I moved into that apartment, it's like now the clock's ticking. I either learn and make the business work and survive or I don't know what happens. And I don't think I'm the type of person that will let that thing happen. So it's kind of like taking a bet on yourself and putting yourself in a situation where you either end up at the bottom of the ocean or the top of the mountain.

>> Yeah., I, don't, know, if, you, ever, heard, the story about people specifically sign uh sitting first class to because then you never want to go to the back of the plane and you've just felt what that feels like and you're like I need to make more money to sit here forever. >> Yeah. >> Which, I, disagree, with, that, by, the, way too. First seat in economy is great. I've done first class first seat economy is great.

>> It, really, is., But, I've, seen, that, a, lot. How do you filter advice and kind of choose the right role models and the right people to listen to given all the garbage that's out there on the internet? >> Oo,, that's, a, good, one., I, don't, think, you can do it at the start, right? I've fallen into every single ideology and dogma that's out there. Be it the I've tried being vegan. I've tried the ancestral diet with like fruit and meat. I've tried if it fits your macros. I've

tried the sugar diet, sugar only, like fruit and sour patch kids at night. I like that one. But you you feel pretty bad with the Sour Patch Kids. But uh there's also ideology and dogma outside of health like different religions and belief systems as a whole, political parties, business models is a huge one, but you kind of just try to get a taste of them all, which requires a level of open-mindedness. And you don't really do it all at once. It's like you experiment

with one and then you kind of just fall off of it and then you try the other and then you try the other and you get sucked into a bunch of these different echo chambers online until you realize like, hey, they're kind of all saying the same thing. Like the underarching principles of all of these are pretty sound and I feel confident enough and experienced enough to make my own decisions and create my own way with this. In terms of becoming high agency

I feel like that's where this comes into play. Agency is the ability to do things without permission. The way to cultivate or develop agency if you're very low agency is thinking about a game. There's a book called agency as art. It talks about how music is kind of like an audible art and how writing is like a written art, but games are like an agentic art. It's people showing different agentic paths or like agencies, we'll call them. So if you aren't very high agency, taking

advice is like the best thing you can do because it firsthand shows you what it's like to have the agency of that person if you follow through. You do that enough times with multiple prescriptions or pieces of advice or ideologies or dogmas without getting locked into one because that's how you become low agency or stay low agency. When you try enough of them, then you note the patterns between them and then you're able to start to like try creating your own and that's and once

you do that enough, you are high agency in a sense. So low agency in my eyes is sticking to one path that someone else gave you and not being open-minded or able to break off of that path. High agency is being able to really make any path work. >> I, feel, like, it's, having, just, your, own unique POV on things. And I I think a big part of it too is being a problem solver. Um you ever read that uh that essay? I think it was by the uh Mac George Mack, the high agency essay. Yeah.

>> The, big, thing, he, talked, about, is >> if, you, got, a, phone, call, and, you, were about to be sent to jail, who's the first friend that you would call? that's the most high agency friend you have cuz that's a problem solver that has resources and is quick on his feet. I completely agree with you. So I feel like are you under the school of like you probably shouldn't be paying for information. I feel like you are someone that should just be dabbling on the

internet finding everything and anything using chat GBT and then using that to inform your own decisions. There's an article somewhere out there that I remember and I wish I could recite right now, but it's called information will never be free. And I think it's just baked into like reality that information will never be free. Even if AI can distribute any kind of information unique specific knowledge will always have a premium price tag. Can you learn

a lot online? Absolutely. There's like no question there. You can learn so much. You can probably do that explicitly, but for convenience and speed, that's also going to demand a price tag. And especially from people who have the experience that you want to acquire. And I I don't think this is a problem with information. I think it's a problem with people's relationship to money cuz you and I probably don't have a problem spending a few hundred bucks

on something that we want right now even if there's an easier way to do it. I think the people who have the poor relationship with money and are saying that everything needs to be free are not serious about their development because they already know that the information is out there and they can go and find it. They just want the premium thing that someone else is charging for for free. >> A, couple, more, questions., How, much, can you bench? >> Big, guy, here,, guys., Big, big, guy.

>> I, don't, bench, that, much., In, high, school, I could bench 275, which I thought was pretty good. >> How, many, pull-ups? >> Like, 12., I'm, heavy,, man., Pull-ups, are the the hard thing to do for me. >> What's, the, big, one?, What's, What's, the machine or exercise that you can go heavy with? What's the flex? Skimoflex. Oh man, honestly not that strong. I I love Smith Machine incline bench. It's not 275, but like two plates, a 25 on there for eight. It It looks It feels

like I'm lifting a lot. >> Sounds, pretty, big, to, me., Last, question before the four that I always ask is uh what's human 3.0 and why are you so excited about it? >> Human, 3.0, know, is, like, a, model, that, I created for myself to help me think more clearly. What it is is it's a combination of various different models that I see as not only trustworthy, as true as they can be, and relatively researchbacked. Aside from some of them, it's a combination of like the nine stages of

ego development, spiral dynamics, and Ken Wilbur's AQAL model. All of those or nine stages of ego development and spiral dynamics are they map how the human mind evolves over time and it evolves through specific stages. So what I did is I took those stages, I turned them into levels. So level one, level two, level three, which is like low consciousness mid-consciousness high consciousness and the characteristics around those and how those display in

certain areas of your life. And then from the Ken Wilbur model, he has the AQAL, which is all quadrants, all lines or all levels. The quadrants in the way that I interpret them is mind, body spirit, vocation. So you have your personal interior world, your mind, your thoughts. You have your personal exterior world which is your habits behavior, appearance. You have the collective interior world which is culture, shared beliefs, relationships.

And then you have the vocation which is the collective exterior domain which is like your role in society, systems your work. Those are the four fundamental domains of reality. Like that covers almost everything from like a sweeping generalizing lens. And then from the developmental levels through all of those, level one through three low consciousness to high consciousness provides this developmental map where you can start to see, okay, I'm not very

developed in this domain. What can I do to get to the next? And so beyond the quadrants and the levels, I kind of mapped out the phases. So dissonance uncertainty, discovery to get through each level and the traits. So knowledge and skill, knowledge, skill, and experience, which is what you need to acquire to go through those specific phases. So for me, it's kind of like I use that as a mental model to see where some person's problem lies. So is it a

physical behavior problem? Is it a work problem? Is it a spiritual problem? Is it a mental problem? Where does it lie? Is this more in the low consciousness conformist stage? Is it more in the individualist stage? Is it very high level? And then from there, how can I find a path forward and start moving in that direction? >> So, is, this, like, a, a, workbook?, Is, this just something that you can use from an awareness perspective to see where you're at with all of them or what actually is it?

>> It's, a, it's, a, newsletter. >> It's, it's, a, newsletter, that, you, can, just >> It, may, turn, into, some, short, book, in, the future, but it is just that. It's for awareness. Like even just reading it, I like reading stuff like that. So, it usually gives me the perspective of like, oh, okay, this puts everything into a very big picture and allows me to navigate it a lot easier. One thing I did do, if you go to that newsletter it's pinned on my social, my Twitter

there's also a link to a prompt that I created that allows you to figure out what your level of development is and like the steps you can take forward and it's very comprehensive. I had someone take it and it made them cry because of how accurate it was. So pretty cool. If you take that, copy paste it, it'll just ask you like 20 minutes of questions. Then it combines all of that and just spits out this large document that tells you exactly where you are and what you need to do.

>> It's, way, more, than, that., It's, a workbook. It's a prompt that they can go through, the, whole entire, exercise., Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You, just, shot, it, down, like, it, was nothing. Like it was a tweet. No, no. This is something an exercise that you can do. >> Well,, they're, like, separate, posts., So like when I think of human 3.0, I don't I think of the prompt as like that helps people go through the actual theory. So that's the practice to the theory. So yeah, all of them are

>> and, that's, ultimately, in, your, opinion the highest value human you can be. It's just firing at all cylinders in all forms. >> Multi-dimensionally, jacked., Yes,, that's my favorite word. >> All, right,, last, couple, questions,, man. Favorite book or podcast and why? >> Book, is, flow, by, Mihi, Chicks, at, Mihi. Just goes over flow, the flow state. I don't know why that's my favorite book but he's just a very clear thinker. His

book Flow and the Evolving Self, they've just stuck with me. Like a lot of the ideas, they just make sense and so they ring true and I want to make true things a part of who I am. So just I like those books and it's very tangible, practical. It's a guide to living a good life really. Podcasts, I wouldn't call it a podcast, but actualize.org He just creates like three-hour videos on all topics self-actualization wise. Very deep.

>> Never, heard, of, that. >> Really? >> Who's, the, guy, behind, it? >> Leo, Gura., I, heard, of, that,, dude., I've watched >> probably, 250, of, his, videos, on, my, watch. >> Wow., Heavy, coach. >> Yeah., Oh,, yeah., No,, he, it >> I, would, go, as, far, to, say, that, he, has, the greatest body of philosophical work of all time. >> We're, going, to, link, that, one, down, below as well. entrepreneur or brand that you want to give flowers to and why?

>> I, feel, like, I'm, always, glazing, Naval, but I just love Naval. Like he has great ideas. He thinks very clearly. I just love clear thinkers in general. Actually one may butcher the name Anu Leru on Substack and Twitter. It's very good ideas. A N U L A T E R U. All right, last question, man. As someone that definitely manifests their life and plans in advance, what does success look like for Danco in 10 years from now? >> Writing, for, two, hours, a, day,, going, on

walks. I think my ideal lifestyle now is like trying to just retain the best parts of it. Like that's the constant battle is whenever I get pulled away from what I believe is my ideal lifestyle, I always benefit from just peeling back to like a base and restarting. That's deep and great advice. Where's the best place I can find you on the internet? >> The, Danco, everywhere. >> Sick., Love, it., Appreciate, it,, man. What's up, guys? If you guys got this

walks. I think my ideal lifestyle now is like trying to just retain the best parts of it. Like that's the constant battle is whenever I get pulled away from what I believe is my ideal lifestyle, I always benefit from just peeling back to like a base and restarting. That's deep and great advice. Where's the best place I can find you on the internet? >> The, Danco, everywhere. >> Sick., Love, it., Appreciate, it,, man. What's up, guys? If you guys got this

far in the episode, I would assume that you enjoyed it. If you got any value, it would mean the world if you hit the subscribe button, give it a like, post a comment, tell a friend. We could keep going bigger. Bigger guests, bigger locations, more value. See you in the next episode. [Music]

far in the episode, I would assume that you enjoyed it. If you got any value, it would mean the world if you hit the subscribe button, give it a like, post a comment, tell a friend. We could keep going bigger. Bigger guests, bigger locations, more value. See you in the next episode. [Music]