Decoding the Mysteries of Type 5 partners - Enneagram 2.0 Podcast S2 Ep 23

[Music] foreign 2.0 podcast I'm Beatrice Chestnut and I'm uranoparts and today we are talking

about your questions about type fives so for a while we've been collecting questions from listeners and people who

have come to our workshops and Retreats about fives now why fives you might ask um well fives tend to be one of the types that don't necessarily talk a lot

about what's going on inside and so those of us who care about them and want to relate well to them sometimes don't always know what's going on in there right in fact this episode for a long

time we've been thinking about it conceptualizing it uh and that our sort of fun title for it in our mind was wives of fives uh now of course we

wanted a more inclusive title formally uh and of course uh their husbands of fives or all kinds of people of five of fives and Friends of fives partners of

fries that want to understand their fives better so that they can have better relationships um and let's face it sometimes fives don't share all the information that

some of us might need or share it in a way that we can understand um so that we can get along uh well with them you know I'm a five so let me see

if I understand the idea of this scary podcast yes uh I it's it's like everything that people should do differently to respect fives

is that it elements of that in there um but yes you are a five and in fact you are going to be the five that's answering the questions okay or maybe

it's like things that people didn't realize yet that the fives are right about I wouldn't say it that way uh myself um although maybe it helps you to think

about it that way um it's more the acknowledgment that you fives are a bit mysterious to the rest of us and we all have the intention of wanting to have good relationships with

the fives in our lives um and so we um want to know more uh from the horse's mouth as it were from someone who knows

about fives and who is quite Brave in talking about his experience as a five maybe braver than most or at least in the line of work where it's his job to

talk about it uh that would be you or maybe it's something like realizing how lucky you are to have a five in your life I like the way you keep reframing these

and I know you have some seven in you but I think it's also your five-ish way to get out of um the the truth of the podcast which is you're sharing more

information about what's going on inside not to say you're right about everything but to say you have your own truth your own experience and it will help the those of us who want to align with you

or understand you to have clear information then sometimes is available so basically you're going to shoot questions on me I'll be against the wall

answering trying to you know represent the race of fire I would not put it that way at all I would say that's not the term the language I would use I would

say it will gently pose questions that have been sent in by people this this podcast will be um people who have Partners who are

fives questions that they have that they've sent in in response to our asking for those questions and maybe we should say that I

was already we were already thinking that people are listening to this might have partners of fives or good friends or fives or business partners who are fives and might be saying hey I have

questions that you didn't include so uh we always welcome your questions for fives or any other types and the more questions we get and we've had a lot of questions come to us from different

people about fives but the more questions we get the more we'll do other podcasts hopefully revealing the mysteries of other types although I think other types are more forthcoming

about what's going on inside than typically fives do that's part of their personality yeah okay so I get it I'm up for it I'm prepared I will represent the

fives very bravely yeah and of course maybe a first teaching here is that fives at times have this irony

and and sometimes even dark humor that they have in addressing things it makes it softer for them yeah to approach this

way and this is perhaps what I did right now just to uh easy things up yes yes to ease things um yeah so

um now it might be good to know that I have not told you the questions in advance so for my requests yes and I was totally um that was what I was thinking

also one thing I might want to say just by boat by way of explanation of what I think happens with fives in their relationships it reminds me of when I

was a group facilitator and I facilitated human sensitivity training groups as part of a course at Stanford Business School and this is where I was trained in group facilitation and we had

a lab that was a group of 12 people the facilitator or two facilitators that would meet like for four hours a week with no task No Agenda no leader and often what would happen in those groups

is there would be some people in the group that would stay very quiet right so other people would talk or share and the the group was a lot about just studying itself and learning

through interacting and through self-disclosure and giving and receiving feedback and some people had an easier time self-disclosing and some people had a harder time and what I learned from

doing those groups is that there were some people in the group who would stay quiet who wouldn't necessarily communicate about what was going on inside it was more difficult for them to self-disclose which I think could be

true of many fives and what was what I learned is that sometimes there's a way and not just fives but people in social situations stay quiet as a way of staying safe you know there's a sense of

it you know it's not natural to share what's going on inside and it feels a little bit scary to to share more and what I learned is when people didn't

share sometimes what happened is other people in the group would project onto them they would assume they knew what was going on inside so I say this in some ways as a way to because I'm a

little protective of fives because I think when fives just go according to their natural personality tendency and don't share very much about themselves

the the downside of that is that other people assume they know what's going on inside the five or they're tempted to assume or or create stories and

explanations in their own mind of what's going on in the five why the five might not be sharing as much why they might do the things they do or act the way they do and so I just want to say that I

think you're doing a service four fives by helping maybe some of the fives that maybe don't want to share on a podcast by sharing more about your your

experience as a five on a podcast because it will help people project less onto fives assume they know more about

that that's going on in fives or c5s as somehow aloof or arrogant or insensitive or are not open um there these are some of the negative

judgments people have about fives that I think can result because it again it's their natural tendency not to share as much that it doesn't necessarily feel

safe or like a good thing to talk about especially how they're feeling but about all kinds of things that may be going on inside and it may not occur to them you know that that's a good thing to do it

may just seem like a negative um so I say that by way of explanation about maybe why we're doing this podcast in particular but I think it may also

open the door to doing other podcasts for instance people may wonder you know how to relate to their um partner who is a different type and I

think will be open of course to doing uh more podcasts like this but of course uh the wives of fives idea people have fives in their lives has a certain

poetic aspect to it that we thought was is both funny but also pointing to a truth that it may really help people in their relationships with fives for you

as an expert on the Enneagram as an and as an expert on being a five to potentially help people understand a little bit more about the internal

experience of the five so that we can both respect them more but also find ways to create more harmonious or deeper better relationships with divides in our

lives so would you like a few comments on what you said yes sure before we start the questions absolutely

um I think that while for some fives it's a matter of safety just stay quiet for other fives it's something else of course that's happening of course there may be many reasons yeah and I think

that perhaps even most of the times it's not safety I think that there is a way that fives are more interested in staying in their own thoughts and learning and getting all the information

and I think that behind that yes there is arrogance and what else did you say uh um I think there is all of that secret

even if the five doesn't want to acknowledge that yeah I think that fives many times when someone is speaking or thinking like this person doesn't get it

and I won't even waste my time trying to explain it you know so I do think there is arrogance okay okay oh great okay

so anything else you want to say before I start gently posing some questions I don't it's a bit gentle and that that's something that people should learn about

five you know it's like it's it's useful to to be nice yeah but don't use too many preambles you know like uh don't

try to be to come up you know very um you know cautiously towards the far you know be objective right okay so I'm open

yet okay great so first question um from uh one of our listeners um what happens internally for fives

internally even somatically for a five when they do have feelings and how can I be more most supportive of a five who is dealing with some emotional stuff

so feelings and emotions um can be I think of two kinds here one is not being okay with the other person

and being super okay with the other person and I think uh the way to change to deal with that depends on what group

of emotions you're talking about and here I am already classifying emotions yeah yeah so

so the question is how to deal or help the five so first of all I think it's a two-part question one is what happens internally for a five when they have feeling when they're experiencing

feelings so let me answer the first one first okay so what happens is that if it's the first group of emotions and

that I'm feeling something hard is protection uh a a drive for protection

in which there is this very quick automatic withdrawal that people need to understand is not only physical it's

like sometimes being there but not and and it's it's like disconnecting a little bit because of feeling hurt but having fear

of feelings I could say more but on the second group of emotions that are you're so happy

with the person and feeling even overwhelmed or not knowing how to communicate them I think the way

what's happening is the five is internally rehearsing how to communicate

it and trying to find the best way um and taking some time to to do that and it might be a very long process even

weeks months or years even thinking that um yeah that's not easy to communicate and on top of that

anything that's too much even if it's good becomes scary so there is this fear of abundance for facts so it might feel

yeah I think that above all fives can feel it in experienced and at the same time willing to but not knowing

how so it's a very different thing that's going on in the inside if it's the first group or the second group of emotions

but that's my take and I really hope that other fives can comment on this podcast uh on the the particular episode

to add something to it I'm trying to to answer for all fives and not only social files with self press repressed like me right right yeah it's good to mention

your subtype and that it may be different for self-preservation fives or sexual files right and then there is a second part to the question I think yeah so before we get to the second part so

you spoke mostly I think in terms of experiencing inside um disconnecting there may be some fear of feelings rehearsing good rehearsing

feelings taking some time um anything you anything you want to add to that about somatically like I think you and I think you said you can disconnect and with draw physically or

you can disconnect and not withdraw physically so you can be there but disconnect inside yourself right so again I need to speak about the two groups because what's happening is very

different I think yes so in the first group negative negative feelings towards the person it's a contraction a

contraction yeah in the body you shrink somehow even if you people don't see it and then you you don't look at the

person's eyes and it feels like the heart is getting shut down so this would be some of this more

physical or energy like if at least what the five feels or if there is some degree of self-observation they will

notice but for the second group it's more like showing some signs of anxiety and you know the good amount emotions or

some signs of confusion or very indirect requests for help very indirect that

people not always translate as such so one thing that's very difficult for all fives in my view is to take the

initiative and when fives are looking a bit confused and you know a bit anxious it is a good idea to ask look

if there is something that you want you you are trying to communicate or that you're feeling and it's not very easy to articulate if maybe it can help you you

know it doesn't need to be now it could be later but uh why if you need to you can start talking and even if it doesn't

make sense right away and I'm here to listen and to you know welcome and honor whatever you you want to say so that that segues to the second part of the

question which was how can I be most supportive of a five who is dealing with emotional stuff so it sounds like you're saying taking the initiative

any ways they should or shouldn't do that and you can start talking I'm here to listen I think that's good anything else that um that we can do to be supportive of

505 who's dealing with emotions again the true groups I cannot answer this for all sorts of emotion okay I've talked about the second group what to do uh and

I would add just that at times it's really brilliant to just surprise the five with the show of your own emotions

but make sure that it's quick and you don't and and you leave the five a little bit alone to process that and that is that only positive emotions or negative only positive okay only

positive okay and it could be like a hug kiss or you know a word that is more intense but then live leave as in please

leave leave excellent leave exit physically and then and but not you know making sure that the five knows that you

are available and you just want to give space because the five can also feel very hurt when the other person leaves intimately and not people don't always

understand this part but but in the first group um when the five is contracted and disconnecting and hurt you may just feel

look I think you're feeling hurt and disconnected something is not selling well with you and then I want you to

know that if that's the case I'll give you space but I ask you to come back to me and open up and discuss and talk

about feelings when you can hopefully you won't take too long because I trust that by communicating that we

can re-engage and make sure that you will um you know the problem will be solved also for you and it's okay with me if

you want to communicate and slightly more indirect ways why are you feeling that like chatting on text instead of just come and talk with me in a more

intimate way so I have a question about that you said what you started with sounded a little bit like an assumption and I know I've learned to

be careful about assuming I know it's like you started by saying it looks like you're having some hurt feelings or this you know I've gotten the feedback of really not to assume and that's not

what's going on in me so instead of saying it looks like say if if okay but I think it's good to

I think fives appreciate people who come up with opinions and affirmations and ideas rather than just asking questions

and so I I think I think that they also see those people as being good observers being smart but also paying attention to

them I think that most fives have a wound of not being paid attention to enough yeah and I think that's one of

the things that you really help people understand about fives that a lot of people don't and I was just talking to a good friend of mine over the last few

days who's married to a five and she was saying it took her a long time to realize that some of his

behavior that that that felt like he he was pushing her away was she she ultimately got the message I need to push you away but don't leave me yes you

know and that it took her a long time to get the don't but don't leave me part you know because that was maybe Express more indirect or it was more quiet so it's I think it's great to that you help

us understand that what we on the outside might seem as disconnecting kinds of behaviors um or you may feel that as being too

personal as if I'm rejecting you and fives many times are not yeah I mean most vast majority of the time and what

I want to say bee is that uh the same way that you sometimes explain that in the Enneagram Feud people's stereotype

choose as being givers only I think that fives are stereotype a stereotype too much as you know not like an intrusion right and people don't talk as much

about aspects like this right right right right right yeah yeah okay okay um so there were a couple of questions

that came in about some ways to work with avarice and stinginess in terms of um

the partner's needs getting met also you know sort of balancing the needs of the five and the needs of the partner um so a couple like one one question was

more about that uh the other question was more about um um

how can I help uh my my partner be sort of more generous or more open Okay um

so if the five is doing inner work then I think that talking about that inner work opportunity

and what is needed for a five to really evolve cycle spiritually is important and

um you know facing that need of the partner is is a good thing building empathy and being there for the

other being open and flowing all of that but I'm assuming that in most cases with behind or underneath this question yes

it's not the case that yeah during much inner work yeah yeah yeah so I'll say something that I think might help people

who have five partners that um that are not very aware and that is do not ask for things for the the current

moment just talk about what you feel like you need going

forward and don't ask for an immediate answer or action and above all by far the most important thing in my view

don't keep asking like all the time don't repeat your requests like be very

clear in the first time and ask the five to come back to you with some kind of resolution

within some time which should never be the same day or the same week and because finds five timing is

different especially from hard types and body types but but then my thing is

tell the five what the need is and give the five time to swallow that to take it in as in oh my I'll need to do that and

that is important and it's very hard for me but I need to and I'll find a way so fives need to do this internal negotiation alone

and it they they they need and I love using this verb for people to understand how it works for fives they need to

budget that like in terms of time for them and efforts it needs to be in in the account in the bill you know like

like if you if you it makes me nervous the bill will come due yeah no it's it's like uh I understand but I need I need

to get ready for that I need to plan for that because it's hard and again this is for fives that are less aware but to an extent all fives will appreciate some

more patience and some discussions of a more General solution not only you know those needs being ever changing

that feels a little bit too much if if you come up with something else the next one you know so let us work on that issue and that issue only in a more

structural way so that we don't need to talk about that as much you know and so that you're happy and everything is calm and we have peace so it's a more

structural approach yeah yeah it needs to be more generic and like this thing we have talked about that already three years ago right that's the the inner

wish that fives have and it's been solved so please don't create many problems around that again right right so

let's say that the person follows the first few steps of your suggestion yeah let me just I realize that this is crazy this is hard for the other person I'm

not saying it's beautiful right I'm just trying to answer the question what might work best yes yeah yeah so let's say someone follows the

first few steps and they say it clearly and they give the five time and then time goes by and nothing changes yes so you need to

agree on a deadline and you need to schedule the top the five will not like that but will potentially say yes to that if it's a reasonable amount of time

because if you give five time without agreeing on when yeah you're going to talk yeah it may not happen Okay ever

okay all right so if you agree on the time to talk by the deadline you could bring it up again let's say if they're not bringing up the deadline it's almost

like being at work doing business [Applause] okay yeah that's good um all right

um this is a little bit more on the feelings thing again and there were a lot of questions about that understandably so someone asks how can I

as your spouse discern when you are feeling versus thinking emotions again if it's the second group the knives

that are not aware Vibes that are not aware the second group of fives the fives that are not aware yeah okay so just assume it's thinking feelings because

that's gonna happen you know just feeling what is that yeah yeah yeah but of course if the 5e is doing inner work that changes yeah and uh just ask the

five to try to elaborate on that and share with you if the five has been doing inner work but for a five who hasn't been doing her work you know just

feeling feelings directly it happens once in a blue moon yeah so just assume the fight is and it's almost like hearing this

question it almost doesn't make sense to me uh I see and why why is that a problem of five would say yes yes yes and it's funny because the the next

question posed by this person which you can already tell I mean by the question was offered by a heart type um because of the way it's framed so maybe you can reframe the question in a

more helpful way um if if it doesn't work for you so what pulls you into your heart to feel feelings and not just think about them

yeah I totally get what the question is saying and I think this is very important for a five on a path okay yeah I totally get that and I think that hard

types can be especially helpful for fives on the path but uh I think this

person asking the questions as on behalf of so many I think this person

might want to just to ask themselves um why do I need that and it's more like is it because if the

five is thinking feelings I'm not trusting the feelings to be true and maybe this is the case I think

that's a mistake because it's like what maybe another way of thinking about that is the feelings dip inside are so big

that I can't go straight to them and I need that protection of the head and it's like you know the biggest hearts

need the biggest padlocks you know so maybe you want to think differently about that right so it's sounding like

that the five may need to approach his or her feelings or their feelings um

through the head first or partially or mostly some of the time in order to be able to bring them out either eventually

or again maybe that's good enough in many circumstances to hear the person's thoughts about their feelings even if they aren't say the pure emotions of

that are deep inside right and I think that might be um you know it's very important to respect that as a valid thing and also

as a step towards one day expressionable emotions or not expressing but feeling emotions more directly but what what is the the main

thing here is that any five will be very sensitive to a hard types expectation that that changes and that will make the

process harder so maybe there is an opportunity for the hard type here here in their relationship to

re-signify things that are coming from the head type and what if well the head type is or is expressing even if it sounds

rational is indeed very big and just being a bit more defended

because it's very big so maybe an understanding of this can help

but as to the question of Health five get to the you know a more direct expression of emotions I would come back to that

um technique of approaching F5 being emotional and overwhelmingly emotional and doing something that is out of the

blue and surprising like hugging the five but leaving the space physically right away and not don't do that waiting

for the answer right away yeah don't do that with a poor five right right right right right and do that again once every few months you know don't

keep doing that so this is um kind of similar but it's different in that this person saying I struggle when

my partner mentalizes feelings and tells me that it's not necessary to be demonstrative or connect via touch so now we're talking I think more about

something physical yeah so when when speaking I like to touch his arm or shoulder and he feels like it's too much

and not necessary and uh this person says we even joke about mental hugs um and um how does a a type 5 access their and

now again there may be a heart bias in the way the questions posed but I think the main question is how to integrate touch or solve the issue of touch

um but how can I support them and in accessing their heart center maybe as it comes to the partner's need for more touch and the body yeah yeah okay so let

me say and it might be controversial but let me say that I think fives are way easier to

deal with than people think this question for instance leads me back to what I have already said and I think that is the solution that it would be

enough for any and what is that it's say to the five that you have that need give the five some time to budget that

to come up with some solution in a structural way so that you don't uh keep saying it because it will be too much

and make sure that you will take in what comes from the five right next could be a slightly weird hug

but take that in it's it's a big thing for the five and maybe the five needs some time to rehearse but it's like look I

I lack hugs I lack Dutch and I would like you to work on doing that for me and you I know

you don't like that you don't think it's necessary but it's my need and I would like to do that and I think it can be a growth stretch for you and you may learn

something about it so I want to leave this thing that I'm saying with you hopefully you can think

about it and come back to me and tell me something about it because I will be expecting you too you don't need to tell me anything tomorrow

but please do it over the next weeks you know few next weeks because otherwise I'll feel frustrated and I won't repeat that don't worry I want you to know that

it's I don't need very big things in the beginning and maybe you can try to include that in our

relationship Dynamics and in my part what I'll do is to try to take in what comes from you without coming up with new and new expectations more and more

all the time so it's again what I had already said it's but to budget the thing to give the five times to not ask for an immediate answer and the second

thing is um do not like I've seen people who are training to do Enneagram panels in

courses go forward to the five one to five is disclosing you know that makes the five shut down don't do that and in

an intimate relationship don't touch the five when the five is speaking because what the heart shuts down it's like one of those animals that

whenever you touch they whoop yeah the turtle that goes back in his shoes yeah yeah yeah so um so don't touch the person at that at

the moment of emotional display okay don't disclosure disclosure just do that at the end or as a matter of you know a

very spontaneous thing not all the time of giving the five a big hug and then leaving because of the overwhelming nature of

emotional displacement and that is all that people need to do don't don't do the five what you expect the five to do

with you which is touching and looking into the eyes while the fight is elaborating so there is kind of a related question that I think you've already answered it so the question and

a couple questions that were sort of similar which were basically like how can I relate my emotional needs to a five without overwhelming them and so I think this is

again I think the same answers and and um and another thing that really helps look at make make yourself a list

then summarize the list in less topics and make sure that you'll say it all in one talk

what is what is not difficult to cope is that person that keeps adding things in new talks that happen in what the five

will perceive as being true often okay and I'm talking again about five's personality and ego it's not beautiful

but if we're talking about what works I think this might be useful so I want to say there is one of one of

our one of the people here that we heard from shared a little bit of a story that I'd like to share along the same lines and maybe you've already answered it but you can see if you need to add anything

so this person is a two and a sexual two and and this person says I can become very resentful and angry and also entitled when I don't get my emotional

needs met and don't feel seen or heard by my five husband one way we have worked to avoid problems in this area is

by having regular couch time where we sit on the couch and connect this sounds like a structural solution you mean both sit in one couch yes

it sounds like that it sounds like this was maybe in a timed way like a time to finish oh that's coming up that's coming up the time isn't part of the story

right so yeah on the same couch and again it sounds like this might have been one of the structural solutions that was arrived at through the process to describe so one way we have worked to avoid problems in series by having

regular couch time where we sit on the couch and connect to me it's kind of preventive maintenance and it helps me to feel connected but when we go a long time without

conflict my five partner tends to want to prioritize other things with his time and not do daily couch time and daily sounds like a ghost time when I read

that I think daily coach time in one couch only I understand I noticed I was sort of assuming it was weekly and when I when I read daily that surprised me too and I

guess because I've been around you long enough but I totally care that uh but it's not over no hold on okay but when we go a long time without conflict my five partner tends to want

to prioritize other things for this time and not do daily couch time because we don't need it so we do it less often and then there he says we don't need it but

what he's trying to say he wanted to say and it's not easy to say for it too because the two will take it very personal uh is I can't do it that much

it's not I don't need it that's what the the five might yeah okay so in that case uh when when

um when the five thinks we don't need it so they do it less often then they're much more likely to be issues come up right because without that and then and

then this person says I don't seem to be able to convince him of the logic of preventative maintenance if you put in 20 to 30 minutes a day you

won't lose a half day or a whole day to relationship problems he he can be stingy with his time which is also a trigger for me how can I make better or

a logical rational case for daily okay here's the thing I think that might be I think uh I think I um I said a few things already that might

help yes to frequent and so forth uh maybe you would like to alternate between one and two couches but but my main point now to this poor

sexual too um is it's very paradoxical here because you know I think this sexual truth is

playing the fives game too much it's trying to be rational too much and a sexual tool never win the game trying to be rational and trying to be too

respectful of that so it's very paradoxical also because there is that Dynamics in which five one space but

also they want proximity and they just can't do it so my practical suggestion is that as a surprise

one of these days in this one couch you jump onto your spouse's lap and hug

him very tightly and kiss him crazily and do that in about half of the time that you are going maybe even less of a

amount of time of the time will be good enough I think in my math in the five's math and uh and surprise like invade all

the space but do that in a way that is not all the time in that one episode and not all the time

in in the couch time you have right and maybe you will meet your needs even more

by having that uh kind of connection as a true and it will be better for it for a five you know and maybe you won't need

it to be every day and you give the five some time to breathe like you can do it every other day and and so so alternate a little bit and don't play the fives

game too much of trying to be too rational yourself do you see it as and this is sort of me sort of elaborating on what you just said or Bill building on it a little bit

do you have the sense that let's say two people if you're in a relationship with a five and you um you want to kind of meet them part way

do you have a sense like let's imagine both people are on a growth path do you have the sense that it's about the five stretching in the direction of the other person and the other person stretching

in Direction the five both understanding it doesn't sound like you do so I wanted to ask not that much of this you know it's not the mindset uh behind although

I think of five appreciates that but the thing here is expectations of how much the five can do right and will offer to

do right and uh but above all as to your question I think I think that the five will appreciate people who can

um limit a little bit what they require and how much and whatever

they will appreciate people doing efforts to be able to take in the times

that the five gives you with quality over quantity uh I think that's a bit there there isn't not much of math of

where that Middle Point is and what is fair or unfair it's more like please respect my need and adapt a little little bit and then then you might be

positively surprised right especially if you have low expectations and you don't think that your math is the same as their math right you resp and you and and there are a couple people who who

mentioned even their questions that they they respected and valued small gestures on the party yeah you know yes yes yes

and you can say that yeah but uh make sure you say that without making it um a perceived expectation right new expectation right additional

expectations right and u5s are very sensitive to expectations and demands by other people yeah I don't think it's it's totally needed to say that you

appreciate I think I think fives are good observers and they know it already they've been observing you forever so I don't think that this phrase

Works uh for fives that much you know I appreciate this and that you know even that can be right as expected right right and I didn't mean to highlight the fact that they were saying they were

appreciating that just that they were noticing right and valuing which I think is the main thing yeah it's more like a

thank you I I love that you know rather than thank you for doing that do it more please yeah yeah implicitly it sounds

very important right and um and just uh to add to the first technique of just you know jumping onto the five's lap and doing something about it don't do it the

next time or the second time maybe even the Third third time again but just know that chances are that the five loved that and is almost wishing

for you to do it again and uh especially with that spontaneity that the fives want to have themselves

but find it hard to display or go for it and then you might do it again on the fourth time and then you know do it do

it differently in half of the time and time and then all of a sudden you get the fives arms and make them hug you for

30 seconds and then you go again so you will you will be helping the five have the initiative that is so hard but it

won't overwhelm the five if you take too long on that unless the five is taking the initiative to take longer I see which may happen and and then at a

certain point the five will want it to be really long okay okay and a true connection that is withstanding right right okay

um another person is saying I feel myself I find myself feeling lonely in my relationship with my five spouse some of the time and wonder how to remedy this

yeah I'm sorry for that and I see that that happens all the time and US fives we unfortunately

generate a lot of lack in Partners I think all fives need to be more aware of that and stop intellectualizing that or

normalizing that too much so what I'm going to say is again um the technique of

saying that clearly so look I'm feeling extremely Lonely with you and I need something to change

I need you to demonstrate some things more often it doesn't need to be too often and I need to say that because

it's very hard for me to cope and if you like me do something about it and then I'll let you think about it I'm not going to engage in a conversation you're

not willing to have right now but I need you to do something within the next few weeks and you need to do your part and come back to me so be assertive be clear

establish somewhat of a deadline and if the five comes back to you saying look I don't think it's necessary

because of blah blah blah say look I'm not talking intellectually here I have this need you may not have it or you may not know you have it but

you need to do something about it for me otherwise we've got a problem so go back again and come back to me in two or three weeks time if it doesn't

work to you then you'll let me know but do your part so be a little bit assertive with fives you is that adish language because files understand that

they have this Arrow 2A okay so speaking of the arrow to eight we got a couple questions about um

how how to how to basically um do a better job of kind of having conflict with the five what's the best

way to help my partner develop an ability uh around conflict or fear of conflict so that there were a couple things like so someone so so my partner

can say value my input around parenting that was one kind of thing and the other one was the other ones were just so that we can have healthier conflict

um in light of the fear of conflict and the withdrawal in the face of conflict my five partner might have be clear don't be indirect

uh don't expect an answer right away give the five time to process what you have talked about and the you know

disagreement ask the five to come back to you saying something and ask the sage of the five that

if they're angry at you back are you that it's okay should demonstrate that but do not insist in having a long

conversation and a long manifestation in one shot of all that anger and do that three times less than you wish you would

do during that one talk and I think else it's not that complicated and when I say be direct is be like eightish be like whoa go straight to the point and say

things people try to play too much the five game and act like fives and fives don't buy that so it's not

that you need to be all rational it's just like be yourself be spontaneous in my view maybe some fives will disagree with that but and it depends on who

we're talking about who this the partner is but um but I think it's wiser to shorten the

time of the conversation than to adapt to much being intellectual okay and you'll never win the game with a five in the intellectual Arena oh unless you're

another head type so the next question I think I can anticipate how you might answer because again a lot of these are variations on a theme this this person says any tips for

how I can constructively and gently discuss with my partner how much is frequently curmudgeonly conversation style hurts so it sounds like being grumpy

um yes the tip is don't go gently don't try to be too gentle just say it

and say it clearly but before you do that narrow down the issues to one main one you know try to solve the main thing

and don't come up with overwhelming lists of too many items and even the what was the first word before gently

constructively constructively yeah that might be good but even if it's not I don't think it's a big issue because chances are that the five already thinks

you're not very constructive and if you try to be you will sort of look a bit fake okay and fives are

sensitive to that so if you're not constructive just don't be constructive and it's it's more important to be direct

and short and and then say look something needs to happen and needs to happen soon please come back to me about that okay

um and again I really want to listen from other fives yeah yeah yeah and again we uh we may even have more fives on next time to help us answer please

send comments yes um how can I help my uh self-preservation five husband be less selfish about money and his energy

budget budget you know look I need that it needs to change we need a new budget you need to put it out on the budget and

that is is in this case is financial budget so you need you need to you need to talk

structures General decisions and not each item so even about money like donating to causes this is something important to

the partner in in their needs to have a math behind that you know and uh and then the five can go with it so maybe it would be like a larger structural

conversation about how we can afford it here's why I think we it would be a good thing to do um and kind of lay it out all of that

and you might want to leave that analysis and decision with the five who will come back to you with their

um Solutions or ideas of solutions right okay and uh for all head types we need to talk big picture first and not a

decision here details there's not one example just talk structurally yeah yeah yeah so

two last questions one is actually from the partner of of someone so an actual question from a five and then one last

question from a partner of a five um so this is from the from a five and this is one of the partners of one of the people who submitted a question

um so how can I start to challenge my five ego and get out of my head and more into my heart and body and the person ads I'm currently in

therapy Body Work Body Therapy somatic therapy and uh hanging out with people who are

who you think are slightly crazier than you who are spontaneous mimicking them not not

um wishing to be perfect at first you know being okay with being clumsy at first and um and doing activities like

in my home country there is an activity that I've suggested a lot to fives and ones which is clown wow so like going to

the circus and training like improvised and more it can be in music and then you bring that to to life

and I think that putting yourself on the spot just doing it even though you will feel ridiculous even though it will come across

in a weird way and then your friends don't start getting feedback that will surprise you that you're funny that they appreciated it and people don't expect

you to be completely talented in that you know it's it's more like uh trying to do it and putting yourself

in those situations if you overthink how to do it it will be a slower change process just you know start something

that can be a technique or putting yourself on the spot and then allow that to be a gradual development process but that sounds like

most of those tips were for a little more to the body what about being more in your heart and and tolerating emotions that I know can can feel overwhelming at times so as true

activities that will help you practice theater or you know psychodrama gesture therapy

um or um or also you know just start by talking about feelings with

your head but then just try to um to add some intensity in your voice the

way you speak and here's one thing that I find uh very interesting for fives as an exercise

write down your feelings in a letter but don't send a letter read the letter in front of the person that's good yeah okay

okay so last question um do all five do fives do most fives all

or most fives have a hard time with joy and fun and how can we have more fun together very good question I think

you know in the beginning for me that was very hard and I would add spontaneity on the list and it was the

thing that I wanted the most but I couldn't get and I would observe and if you even envy people who are like that

especially sevens and some friends and sometimes I would even think that I was leaving a little bit of that just by

having them around you know almost Outsourcing that but going with that flow you're surfing that wave [Music]

um but it's completely true that fives don't have that yeah at the same time I think that not many fives are aware of

how much they need that I think they they have settled for a bit more comfort

and peace instead of the vibration of joy and I think that a more you know planned decision to go for

activities that are more thrilling like I know a five who was like that was not having

as much joy in life and then decided with his partner to do car rally once a month in a championship it was

like endurance rally and not you know the Crazer kind of rally but that was a lot of joy and adventure for him and that was a decision of one

activity to put in the calendar and thinking ahead about it or like traveling

you know like fives are among the funniest and most most spontaneous in trips do you know why why because they know the date of their

flight back so they they know how much they will need to do all of that and then they manage to do that

so then you can ask did you like being the joyful did you feel like you were missing that missing out so what about

bringing that you to daily life and how so what would you like to do what would be like traveling a little bit like that you The Traveler

once a week or once every two weeks or once a month and then you know there is a little bit of experimenting

and I think that talking about specific activities first right is a good idea before it becomes a lifestyle for everything yeah and fives eventually

find out how much they were missing that I would add lightness also to the list beautiful okay

all right well I think that does it for this podcast and what an interesting one it was and thank you for um being open to hearing and Fielding

questions questions were easily easier than I anticipated well there are a few Central themes and so I think you know the good news is

I think what we're hearing is people want to connect with Vibes and connect more deeply and sometimes it can be hard negotiating different needs and expectations and I think most fives are

very glad to answer questions that are out of January interest curiosity yeah and if they are like questions to really

understand and make things easier and yeah yeah okay all right and thanks to everyone who submitted questions and feel free to send more questions of any kind

um because when we get a lot of questions about a particular type we might do another one of these um uh episodes each one of these okay so

that does it for this episode today and it's time for our top five and what is our top five today B our top

five today is most likely to talk to strangers hmm we tell children not to talk to strangers but as adults yes some people are more outgoing and friendly

with total strangers some are not as much um so we thought this might be an interesting one so I won't just say that my number one is Brazilians

or lighting people you often say Brazilian is a subtype so I think I think that makes a lot of sense I just want to say I think uh culture is more

important than that uh yes this is my point yeah and uh yeah I think it changes a lot big time Big Time I remember when I was visiting I think it was Norway

um the the people that I did the training with gave me a little book it was a funny little book about Norwegians and it was all it was really funny about how you shouldn't talk to strangers and

how when you're when if you happen to be in your stranger everybody has to look at their feet and not say anything so it's kind of funny and so yes uh I think you're right that culture has a lot to

do with it so so good to mention that up front right that's inside yeah and time also changes things or subtype at times yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so what's your

number five um my number five is type eight um not higher on the list because of

self-pressed AIDS but uh I think that especially sexual AIDS but also social AIDS are good on that but maybe not the best

I think perhaps social AIDS are a bit better but also I know some social aids with social sexual weights with social repressed that are not that good on that

so it's or my fifth interesting I I was tempted on this one to say something like all social dominance or you know my

number one or number two and I think uh self-pres dominance are not likely to talk to strangers because it's interesting I was thinking to myself

well twos probably do but not me as a self-preservation too like I'm I'm shy when it comes to that even though sometimes I will but anyway my my number

five was a tie between three and nine because I thought oh both I could see both of them especially social three and social nine yeah

um and so again I'm tempted and I may even do as we go uh append social dominance to each one because I do think that makes a difference interesting yeah I'll comment on that in

a bit and my fourth is type two I think that because Jews are very relational usually communicative

and at the same time I don't think that perhaps self-pressed Jews will necessarily be like that so this is why they are not higher up on the list and

also because choose are selective so they may have their previously elected favorite people to talk to and then not

much space for strangers but I still think the truths are are more communicative and outgoing on that sense

than others yeah yeah so my number four is is social six and self-preservation six ah

okay but not necessarily sexual sex yeah yeah yeah so I I found I had to really differentiate with subtypes giving myself the freedom to add that in and

why sixes what do You observe those two something about sixes social sixes they're kind of straightforward and sometimes and also I think there's a

kind of every man quality to them where they don't see themselves as above others so I think there's a way sometimes they just speak to other people just kind of as a natural kind of

manifestation of something they have to say or some way of reaching out I think self-preservation sixes tend to be warm and friendly on the outside uh mental on

the inside but social sixes also can um I think sort of want to create sort of a kind of sense of community wherever they go and they they're sort of straightforward and and

um and don't and equal I think in a certain way right yeah it makes sense success dot didn't make make it to my list but I agree with your points actually I think there's one social six

I know this guy who like when we go to restaurants he makes a really big show of asking what the waiter's name is and talk you know and I

know two people like that and then we shouldn't go too much on these lists by one or two people we know because that's not enough of a trend but I but there's two people that I've known in my life one was a social six and one was a

social three and both of them made a big show of like talking to waiters and so that's stuck in my mind although neither of those types is super high on my list okay yeah fair enough so what's your

number for uh my third right number three um so um here it came with instincts and I was

really in the doubt I was going to say social dominance but then I didn't what I said is self press repressed

I think that self press repressed are really prone to talking to to strangers and um and I think

that social or sexual first depends on type yeah I think that

um what is more important is to have the self-price repressed to be able to talk to strangers like I'm a five but I do also the Brazilian in me yeah but I

think that self press repressed play is a big role yeah uh on that and I see that happening both with sexual fives

with self-price repressed and social fives with self press repressed and usually self-pressed repressed people of online types but it's debatable

yeah yeah that makes sense um and I guess we're both getting a little bit creative with this list I noticed it was a little bit tricky um for my number three I went for two

but social two and sexual too um and because I really it's I envy people who have an easy time being friendly with strangers actually I I there's something about me that feels

sort of shy um but it's funny it reminded me of a of a funny story from my childhood so my I'm I was very close to my maternal grandmother growing up very close and

she was also a self-price too although I think she had a strong social everybody loved her and I'll never forget she told me once when I was very little like three years old um we would be what I would be walking

with her in the neighborhood in her neighborhood and uh one time she said I said to her because she she would always stop and talk to everyone she said one time I said to her granny how come you

tell me never to talk to strangers but you talk to everybody so I thought that was kind of cute so maybe that not talking to strangers part sunk in with me uh but it wasn't

necessarily demonstrated by her I just think twos tend to want to make connections with everybody and that kind of thing I agree yeah

okay my number two is nines I think that specially social lines but also sexual not as much the self-president

although sometimes and to an extent I just have nines here because I think when they do they do it a lot yeah and also there is another aspect here on

talking to strangers when it comes to strangers in big need and then I think some people of different types go more

for talking with people in this Spirit of really helping and I think that perhaps nines above everybody else but I think that social lines are

amazing about that you know being very spontaneous and nines tend to be not as selective as other types and

um yeah so this is my second I think you've convinced me that I should have maybe had nines higher on my list my number two is social eight and maybe

some sexual AIDS too especially if they have a social second you know um but I think social AIDS again they tend to have just a a sense of community

about them and like we sometimes say that if they see someone being hurt by someone else out in public they'll sort of intervene um it's like they I think they sometimes

don't hold themselves back from including people even strangers you know in their you know sort of what they're thinking and doing and singing yes good

probably we have the same one on number one probably I have seven I do two I have social seven but yeah but I think it could be all seven I think because even self-preservation sevens I think

they can be kind of funny and talkative and sexual seven certainly you know I think it depends on the person but yeah but I think I you know I had uh

and also I'm not caring much about their image or exactly and just being kind of confident in themselves thinking well of themselves thinking everybody's gonna enjoy interacting with them which they

often do you know communicative communicative usually creative you know inclusive in a certain way of seeing themselves we sometimes say sevens don't

like hierarchy because they don't want to be told what to do and they don't want to tell other people what to do so it's almost like there's a kind of like Live and Let Live we're all in this

together and let's all have fun together kind of experience that I think seven sometimes bring so as a Brazilian family when we moved to London from Brazil

seven years ago my son being a seventh he would go on the tube or Subway and then he would find it really weird that people wouldn't talk among themselves

like strangers and then he didn't even think of adapting to that he kept talking to people who were strangers so I think there's something about sevens

that is I don't adapt to people people adapt to me yes yeah yeah they they you know they just go for it but not all sevens which might have been positive

for the British people encountering your yeah although sometimes I I'm sure also scary yeah yeah yeah yes okay

um so um that does it for this episode uh we hope you'll join us again for our Enneagram 2.0 podcast thank you so much for listening please do join us next

time where we talk about all things Enneagram foreign