Defining Healthy Masculinity & How to Build It | Terry Real

When the moment calls for fierceness, a good Morirani is a killer. And they

they are. They're warriors. They'll kill

you. Don't cross them. When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Morirani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby. What makes a great

Morani is knowing which moment is which.

Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast, where we discuss [music] science and science-based tools for everyday life.

>> [music] >> I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Terry Reel. Terry Reel is a therapist and considered one of the world's foremost experts on male psychology and on male female dynamics in romantic relationships. Today we

discuss what it means to be a man and the mental health crisis that men are facing nowadays. As you may have heard,

facing nowadays. As you may have heard, rates of depression and suicide are at an all-time high in men right now. Fewer

and fewer men are in romantic relationships, and many don't even have a single close friend. And for those that are in romantic relationships, the public messaging about how to show up in

those relationships is very conflicted.

Today, we address all of these issues headon. Terry explains that to thrive in

headon. Terry explains that to thrive in life, men have to look at relating as a skill that requires action and yes, feelings, but also processing and communicating those feelings in a

specific way and sometimes not communicating them at all. We also

discussed the critical importance of fraternity, not necessarily college fraternities, but finding and belonging to a group of men that you can trust, that you can enjoy time with, that give you honest feedback, and that hold you

accountable. What I appreciate so much

accountable. What I appreciate so much about Terry Reel is that he's willing to answer the hard questions about men and women very directly. And frankly, most therapists are not willing to do that

publicly. For example, he explains that

publicly. For example, he explains that in his extensive work with couples, women and men are equally bad at relationships, but in different ways, and he offers solutions for them both if

they actually want their relationship to thrive. Thanks to his honesty and

thrive. Thanks to his honesty and providing practical tools, Terry Reel provides us today with essential information for men and women of all ages. It cuts through all the

ages. It cuts through all the generational differences that certainly exist to highlight the practical ways that men can build and support their mental health and thrive at work, school, and in romantic relationships

and also just as importantly in their relationship to themselves. That is how men can build a strong self-concept, sense of agency, and confidence. Before

we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In

keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Terry Real. Terry Reel,

welcome.

>> Uh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank

you.

>> What's going on with men? What's this

mental health uh men's crisis suicide rates are way way up? What's going on?

What's going on is that the old role is shifted. The sand is uh shifted under

shifted. The sand is uh shifted under our feet and we're trying to figure out what the hell we are and if we're not going to be

what our dads and granddads were, what are we going to be? and

we're searching and we're grappling. I

got to tell you the other thing that's going on is somewhat in reaction to feminism and you know somebody said about my work women

have had a revolution and now men have to deal with it. It's like what are we supposed to do here? And there's been a backlash.

Uh there's been a resurgence in our country and around the globe of almost a celebration of some of the most

difficult unattractive aspects of traditional masculinity.

And we're not sure what it means to be a man anymore. particularly young guys are

man anymore. particularly young guys are are grappling and um there aren't a lot of healthy examples saying, "Okay, here's the new territory.

Let me let me show you what it looks like." Uh the biggest response that I

like." Uh the biggest response that I see uh to the confusion about what are

we supposed to do here uh has been uh regressive. Let's go back to being

regressive. Let's go back to being powerful dominant entitled aggressive.

Uh, and you see this at the top. You see

this in politics, not just in our country, but all over the globe. Um,

autocracy dominance is is celebrated.

And it's like we're tired of the woke. We're tired of being told that we're bad. You know, I grew up in the 60s in the height of feminist and I consider myself a feminist family therapist.

>> Did you have long hair in the >> Oh, yeah. And a mustache and the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And a lot of

thing. Yeah. Yeah, I did. And a lot of drugs. And uh but uh when I grew up, the

drugs. And uh but uh when I grew up, the the joke was um you know, the philosophical uh if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there, does it still make a sound? And when I grew up, it was

uh if a man speaks in the woods and there's no one there, is he still wrong?

>> [clears throat] >> That was the the first surge of of major feminism.

>> Yeah. Well, early stage feminism was uh angry. I am proud to say my dear friends

angry. I am proud to say my dear friends and colleagues who are uh in the forefront of feminism, Mr. Pel, Carol Gilligan are man-loving feminists. But

that's that wasn't the first wave. And

it was really a um understandable uh reaction to the entitlement and the oppression of

women. But I call that political

women. But I call that political patriarchy and it exists. Look uh you step out of America and it's pretty

clear uh women are oppressed by men all over the globe. That's true. But what I as a psychologist, what I'm interested in is what I call psychological

patriarchy. The dynamics of patriarchy.

patriarchy. The dynamics of patriarchy.

And that can take place between two men, between two women, between a mother and a child, between two races. And the

psychology of patriarchy is a straight jacket that is, I believe, toxic for everybody. Uh, now there there are some

everybody. Uh, now there there are some positive traits to traditional masculinity. It's not completely black

masculinity. It's not completely black and white, but a lot of it is really unhealthy.

So, a lot of guys reacted to being told, "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong," by, "Hey, I'm throwing off the shackles. I'll do what the hell I want."

shackles. I'll do what the hell I want."

And a kind of celebration of the old freedoms and the old entitlements. But

that ain't the way out. And even though we see this resurgence right now, that does not breed a happy human being. Uh

so we need models of progressive masculinity, not regressive masculinity, and they're rare.

Is it possible that now there are more templates of what it is to be a man than there were before? I mean, in my mind,

in my very simple-minded, not formally educated about this topic, except having grown up.

>> Yeah, you are a man. You are a guy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the only experience I have, right? So,

everything's filtered through my own experience as best as I can try and get outside. I mean,

outside. I mean, >> this is where I started and where I'll end up. uh you know that the model that

end up. uh you know that the model that I was exposed to was okay you know um in the 40s and 50s men looked and acted a

certain way >> and there it was a fairly narrow template >> very narrow >> pretty narrow template >> and pretty inhuman in some ways the essence of traditional masculinity

which didn't end in the 50s it's still with us very much today is stoicism uh The essence of being a man is being invulnerable.

The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are. The more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are to this day.

And being girly is not a good thing.

Well, there's some problems with that.

One is we are vulnerable as human beings. That's a lie. Denying our

beings. That's a lie. Denying our

vulnerability is a lie. And so I see chronic anxiety, depression, everybody's in a state of do I measure up? And you

don't because what you're trying to measure up to isn't real. You know, I say to guys, uh trying to to run away from your own vulnerability is like trying to outrun your rectum. It has a

way of following you everywhere you go.

We are vulnerable. And the other issue with that traditional model of stoicism is we connect to each other through vulnerability. That's how human beings

vulnerability. That's how human beings connect. And men are walled off. And one

connect. And men are walled off. And one

of the issues facing us uh is in heterero relationships. Women across the

heterero relationships. Women across the West are insisting on levels of emotional connection and openheartedness

and intimacy from their from us guys that literally were stamped out of us as boys. You know, the way we turn boys

boys. You know, the way we turn boys into men traditionally in this culture is through disconnection.

You disconnect from your feelings. You

disconnect from vulnerability. You

disconnect from others. you disconnect

from your mother. We call all this becoming autonomous. Well, this whole

becoming autonomous. Well, this whole story of achieving autonomy has nothing to do with real psychology. There's no

basis for it at all. It's just

patriarchy.

So, like for example, you know, the monoselabic adolescent boy who won't answer his mother, that's not normal. We

we think of it as normal. Uh but that's not psychologically necessary. It is a mandate of traditional masculinity.

And I'm here to tell you that traditional masculinity is harmful.

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Let me ask you about this uh template.

Like, so there's the 1940s went into the 60s somewhat template, right? As Steve Jobs so aptly said, you

right? As Steve Jobs so aptly said, you know, the 60s really happened in the 70s. The long hair, the mustaches, most

70s. The long hair, the mustaches, most of that was in the 70s. Some of it was in the 60s, but most of it was in the 70s. Okay? So there's that very stoic

70s. Okay? So there's that very stoic template, >> right?

>> Right. Um provider, protector, stoic, >> no feelings.

>> Right. Yeah. And it's actually interesting to look I have looked a little bit of the history of this. Um

you know, there were even uh diagrams that, you know, men should never stand with their hands on their hips because that was like a feminine stance. Never

tilt a hip to one side. I mean, this stuff was but it was out there, right?

And it was also coupled with etiquette.

It was very clear how to act, right?

There wasn't much range, but the sort of range of things to do and say was fairly scripted, which I I'll just make I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here,

but it made the script simpler and therefore more accessible, but it masked a lot of other things is I think what we both agree on. But then came the

template. You I was born in 75, so I'm

template. You I was born in 75, so I'm 50 now. Um,

50 now. Um, in the late 80s and 90s, it was kind of a mishmash of things. We saw our first um, gay male characters in television

shows. Yes,

shows. Yes, >> we saw also g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g g gay female characters, but since we're talking about men and masculinity here, that that be that was the first time I think it was the

character on the real world San Francisco that um the first character, forgive me for not remembering his name, he died of AIDS and it was during the AIDS um AIDS epidemic and

>> Willian Grace and Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, there was more of that, right?

But there's a difference between having gay men in the public eye and saying that the role of straight men had changed.

>> Totally agree. Totally agree. Those are

two separate things, but there was sort of an expansion of of notions of maleness. I would say in the 80s and

maleness. I would say in the 80s and 90s, it's almost like um things became somewhat more of a buffet, right? You

had your football jock types, your finance guys. There was the stoic thing,

finance guys. There was the stoic thing, the provider protector thing, but then there was more of an of an art artsy artist phenotype.

>> Yeah.

>> That um emerged as well. You had um I wouldn't say sensitive artist, but the artistic expression.

>> Yeah.

>> Became kind of it was always, but it became part of masculinity.

>> Well, you had hippies.

>> You had hippies and then it became and then it was like rock and roll, right?

Right. I mean, you had also, not my taste, but you had like the bonjovies types, you know, you had like long hair and and it was Oh, you're from Jersey.

Okay. I've got memory. So, so Bonjov is an appropriate example. So, there was somewhat of an expansion.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. There was somewhat of an expansion. And then now it seems that

expansion. And then now it seems that the templates of maleness, I mean some of the most famous musical artists who

are men and you know report as heterosexual from what I know are, you know, dress in what used to be

considered a very feminine way, right?

You had that before too, David Bowie.

Yeah.

>> Right. I mean, so there's always been a bit of gender bending within this template, but it really, I think, emerged the most in the '9s, and it's continued forward. And now, when I talk

continued forward. And now, when I talk to guys in their 20s, cuz I have friends with kids who are now in their late teens and 20s, um, it seems that they

are very comfortable with the idea of self-expression. I guess this is where

self-expression. I guess this is where I'm trying to reconcile this notion of like that we're so you said that we're kind of still steeped in the patriarchy, but it seems like the the kids in their

20s and 30s um and maybe even 40s, they feel like they have options. Well, they

they have access to emotion in ways that we didn't. You know, they were all

we didn't. You know, they were all raised by feminist mothers. Uh and it had its uh impact. But the the problem is, you know, I see these guys and

they're all whining that women aren't attracted to them. And there's a reason for that. A lot of guys who get in touch

for that. A lot of guys who get in touch with the emotion and the the sort of

more heartfelt uh issues uh bring along with it traditional male privilege.

So it's like I'm emotional now. Come and

take care of me.

And a lot of the women are complaining that these guys are kind of children.

They're not they don't stand up. The

issue is this.

Can you be big-hearted and open and emotional and show up and be responsible and be giving? The thing that hasn't

changed for a lot of us guys is giving.

uh back in the 50s and it was stoic.

It's about me. I show up and I am responsible in ways that our younger guys are less responsible than our dads were. That that's all true. Uh but you

were. That that's all true. Uh but you know, I go out and I fight dragons and I come home and where's my martini and slippers? Then the 60s came on and

slippers? Then the 60s came on and feminism and uh okay, it's okay to have feelings. It's might even be okay to be

feelings. It's might even be okay to be a little bit uh vulnerable.

Um, but it's still about me.

And when I talk about progressive masculinity, I want men who are big-hearted strong connected and

giving. And that's missing both in the

giving. And that's missing both in the um traditional patriarchal model and in many of the countercultural model. You

know what's missing in our culture? Uh

I'm going to fade back from men for a moment and talk about generally. What's

missing in our culture generally is relationality.

What's missing in our culture uh is the beauty of connection. And look, you you follow the science. I've been saying this for 40 years and now the science is

really very clear. Being connected,

being intimate with yourself and with others, uh that's what we humans are born for. That's how we're designed.

born for. That's how we're designed.

We're pack animals. And the lack of intimate connection uh is not only bad for us psychologically, but I think it was Vivic Murthy who quoted uh is as bad

as smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes a day on your body. We are

born to be connected and related.

And I wrote about male depression back in the 90s.

Um what I said is the way we quote turn boys into men is through disconnection.

We tell them to disconnect from their hearts less so younger men disconnect from others. That's being independent

from others. That's being independent and autonomous. And the cost of

and autonomous. And the cost of disconnection is disconnection.

And some men have recovered more feeling inside their skin, but they haven't developed the art of connection. You

know, I deal with uh uh just like you and many of your uh I deal with high rollers in my in my practice. And one of the things that I teach these guys is

the difference between gratification and what I call relational joy.

Gratification is just what you think, a short-term hit of pleasure. And our

culture loves gratification. And you

know, these captains of industry who come in and fly their private planes in to see me, they're all about gratification and they've done beautifully at it. You know, they're

rich, they're powerful. That's great in this place. I'm I like pleasure. There's

this place. I'm I like pleasure. There's

a deeper pleasure that I call relational joy. And you get that as a parent.

joy. And you get that as a parent.

Sometimes your kids are gratifying.

Sometimes you want to throw them through the goddamn window. But if anybody said, "Hey, we could do a time machine and you don't have to have this deck yet because

there's a deeper down joy in just being there and being connected, just being in the relationship." And that's been lost

the relationship." And that's been lost in our culture. We live in an anti- relational narcissistic culture. And

even though some of the terms of patriarchy have moved, the narcissism and the lack of relationality has not moved. It's just a different variation.

moved. It's just a different variation.

>> There's a lot there. And I I want to um make sure I ask about this notion of emotional experience and expression from men. Um,

men. Um, seems like a very important topic to to parse because

indeed it it seems that men now are thanks to your work and and others are hearing that it's important to feel to feel.

>> Yeah.

>> That feelings are not just okay, they're encouraged um that if you bottle them in, you know, we used to hear about this in the context of the impact on heart health, right? type A, type B, like if

health, right? type A, type B, like if you go back and look at the it was it was almost like a mask for this other thing. It's still true. You know, you

thing. It's still true. You know, you can destroy your heart by smoking cigarettes and all this other stuff, but it was really it was about the those that original typing of people who tend to die early from heart attack. It was

the people who hold it inside. It was

about people who who manage a lot, do a lot, >> but hold inside. And it's kind of interesting because the ones that turned out, and I'm not suggesting people do that, screamed and yelled a lot. that

that catharsis actually helped them in terms of longevity. Not saying you should go scream at people um but Steve Jobs used to um be a big proponent of

scream therapy and um you know and just getting out there and and and vocalizing. But the I think that the

vocalizing. But the I think that the real that the question that's in my mind is okay so if it's important to feel

then let's just do this as a decision tree. Okay. So I think if we agree men

tree. Okay. So I think if we agree men need to feel their feelings. Yes.

>> Then the question becomes should they feel those alone or in the presence of someone else? And I'm guessing there's a

someone else? And I'm guessing there's a case for both.

>> But then at what point >> does one uh not have this um what you refer to as emotional privilege where it's like putting it on someone else to take care of them. Could you give an

example of what healthy expression of an emotion is? Let's keep this in the

emotion is? Let's keep this in the context of heterosexual couple for simplicity. Obviously it carries over.

simplicity. Obviously it carries over.

>> Sure.

>> Um >> what is an example of healthy emotional expression? Let's say sadness, deep

expression? Let's say sadness, deep sadness >> or frustration and sadness.

>> Yeah.

>> Um >> in the presence of a partner.

>> Yeah.

>> That doesn't bring about this thing of of that they're regressing and are some now becoming a child.

>> Yeah.

>> What does that look like?

>> It looks like a negotiation and not a demand. Could you tell me more?

demand. Could you tell me more?

>> Yeah. Because even in our I'm going to push us. Even in our talk,

push us. Even in our talk, I don't care about the feelings.

I care about the connection.

What what will make us men healthy is connection.

So, yeah, great. Have your feelings. And

then what are you going to do with them?

Uh uh I I uh I used to have no feelings and now I have feelings all over the place and I don't give a about you and your feelings. I want you to pay

your feelings. I want you to pay attention to me and my feelings. Well,

is that a step up? I mean, a little bit, but it's not where I want to leave you.

Uh so, what I want men to move beyond is our selfishness.

And because it's in our interests to move beyond our selfishness and so recovering feeling being stoic or having feelings. Sure. That's good.

having feelings. Sure. That's good.

That's important. The way we connect is through feelings. The way we connect is

through feelings. The way we connect is through vulnerability. So I was nervous

through vulnerability. So I was nervous coming here talking to you.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> Me?

>> Yeah. Well, I hard to imagine, right?

But it's true.

>> Well, it's true. I I spent a lot of time here, so it's it's a very familiar place. But I I would hope that's not

place. But I I would hope that's not because uh I'm intimidating. No, it's

not that. It's more like um there are a lot of people listening to us right now.

>> Oh, yeah. Who are intensely interested in these issues. Men and women, young and old, are really interested in these issues.

>> Yeah. As we should be.

>> And not just because men are killing themselves more. That too. But also

themselves more. That too. But also

because as you pointed out, we are a oldw world primate species and we are not going to go back to living in troops. Sorry folks.

troops. Sorry folks.

>> No. My colleague,

>> I like to consider him a friend as well, Bob Sapolsky. You know, we talk about

Bob Sapolsky. You know, we talk about this from time to time. It's like, yeah, that's how we evolved. Guess what,

folks? There's no little village where everyone moves to.

>> I know.

>> It's not happening.

>> I know. Well,

>> but we are also very adaptable old world primates.

>> That's true.

>> So, but but that the circuitry is not going anywhere. We It's a need. So, if I

going anywhere. We It's a need. So, if I could hopefully you're not feeling nervous anymore, but [laughter] >> Well, but let me ask you a question.

>> Yeah. Because what I did is I called our mutual friend Bea.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And I said I was nervous.

>> Is that right?

>> Yeah.

>> And she's wonderful.

>> Yeah. And she said he's wonderful. Let

me tell you about Andrew and what's going to happen. And she like read me through the whole thing. And little uh I'm not going to get into it, but my fears about well we're going to disagree

about this and No, you're not. Let me

tell you how it is. And after I was done talking to her, I was chilled.

Uh that's a that's a blessing that what men lose when we don't uh uh when we're not in touch with our vulnerabilities is we lose the capacity to ask somebody to

help them but it's ask someone not demand and it's also reciprocal. It's

not you know then Bea started talking about her relationship and I started supporting her and that's a relationship and yes I want men to come out of the straight jacket and have feelings. I

want us to be whole and own our human vulnerabilities, but in a context in a context in which we're connected to

other people and we're neither cut off from them nor are we imposing on them, but we've learned the art and it's

virtually lost of how to be with simply how to be with how to ask them to be with us and how to reciprocate and be

with them, you Well, so many women are angry at us. I mean, I deal I'm the medic in the gender war, you know. I I

deal my beat are couples on the brink of divorce that no one else has been able to help. That's my specialty. And um

to help. That's my specialty. And um

it's like we just don't know. I have a saying, and I may get into the trouble, but it's a broad generalization, but clinically I like to say an angry woman is a woman

who doesn't feel heard. And so many men are like, "What is going on here? My

marriage isn't that bad, but if you could just get her off my back, I don't understand what the problem is." Uh, and you we're hit with an angry Well, I'll double back on this, but we're hit with

an angry woman and we either push back or get defensive or withdrawal. I have

to lead men by the hand. Let me teach you something. Tell me why you're angry.

you something. Tell me why you're angry.

Tell me what you would like.

Let me give you, unless it's jumping off the bridge. I I have a saying. I know

the bridge. I I have a saying. I know

how you can disarm an angry woman in five seconds 50% of the time, which is better than you're doing. Okay. How do

you do it? Give her what she wants. Let

me ask you what's going on with you and do what I can to help out. This is a skill that's brand new for our culture.

And it it if I may, it doubles back on the central issue which I hope we get to of men and self-esteem because most men in our culture have no idea what healthy self-esteem looks

like. Well, we uh self-esteem

like. Well, we uh self-esteem comes from the inside out. I have worth because I'm here and I'm breathing. I

don't have to earn it. I can't add to it. I can't subtract from it. You know,

it. I can't subtract from it. You know,

it's democracy. My worth is no better or worse than yours. I'm born with it. Men

are taught outside in self-esteem and it's mostly performance. I have worth because of what I can do. I have big muscles. I can land I can give my wife

muscles. I can land I can give my wife an orgasm. I can land this job. I can

an orgasm. I can land this job. I can

hit this homer.

That's great when you perform well, but when you don't perform well, you go into shame. What happened to your worth? And

shame. What happened to your worth? And

so healthy self-esteem, if I may, and I may double back and talk more about it, which I have to teach men, is the capacity to feel proportionally bad

about bad behavior. I screwed up. I hurt

you. I'm sorry. And at the same time, hold yourself in warm regard as the imperfect person. And what what we do is

imperfect person. And what what we do is we either don't feel bad about bad behavior. That's shameless. That's

behavior. That's shameless. That's

grandiose, sociopathic even. Or if we do feel bad,

sociopathic even. Or if we do feel bad, we go right into shame. I'm a useless piece of I feel terrible. I have

to teach men to come up out of shame and not be obsessed with the, you know, one of the things I say is when you go from shameless bad behavior, irresponsible,

selfish, insensitive to, oh my god, that's terrible. I'm a big I

that's terrible. I'm a big I should just beat the hell out of myself.

You're you're trading one form of self-reoccupation or guess what? Another

form of self-p preoccupation. I

definitely want to get into self-esteem, but I just want to um for my sake and for some of the listeners, make sure that I summarize uh two what I think are conclusions and then you can modify these

>> as it relates to expression of emotion which which you I and I totally agree. I

mean, you have to be able to feel your feelings. If for no other reason, one

feelings. If for no other reason, one good reason, great reason to get started on that trajectory is it's great for your physical health. It's also great for your mental health and your

relational health, but oftentimes um as you know um men need to be kind of like led to the trough for for a particular carrot and then there additional carrots

in there. But it's holding everything

in there. But it's holding everything inside will kill you.

>> Yes, it will kill you.

>> And it makes everyone else around you miserable too even if you think you're protecting them from it. But as you very importantly pointed out, it can't be a

dumping of emotion on other people. So

what I heard from you was a at least two very healthy ways to engage emotionally for men is one to ask for help.

>> Yeah. And the help from your example, you're referring to also a very talented therapist, Bea Voce, uh when you called Bea was to ask for help by expressing

what is on your mind as the point of concern. Like one is nervous or one is

concern. Like one is nervous or one is sad or um and >> and I think in my experience, women naturally reach out to help when you couch.

>> Everybody does, right? And then the >> Can I slow that down for a second, Andrew?

What we have is what what I call the icorus syndrome. In the absence of

icorus syndrome. In the absence of worthiness, so many of us feel we have to earn love.

We have to earn worthiness and and I like to say guys leave their wives. I'll be heterero for a moment.

wives. I'll be heterero for a moment.

Guys leave their wives and kids go fly off into the sun to be worthy of love.

And meanwhile, their wives and kids are saying, "Where the hell is dad? What

what's going on here?" Well, I I'm off trying to win your love. Well, sit down and play Monopoly with us for Christ's sake. You don't have to do that. It's

sake. You don't have to do that. It's

like it's a bill of goods. It's it's a scam that we've all bought. Just sit

down and be still and be connected.

That's all you need to do. But we don't we're not taught that, >> right? And uh we'll get back to this

>> right? And uh we'll get back to this later, but the the demands of also and the joy frankly of being a provider and protector many times, not always, involve having

to leave the home and go do work. And

frankly, all my friends with kids and uh you know, and I've certainly experienced this. It's when you're not able to be

this. It's when you're not able to be home because you're working, it's it's it's this weird pain. It's like because you I certainly love my work. Being a

provider is wonderful and at the same time there's this pain of not being able to be there for things and we can get back to that. but asking for help and

then in terms of responding in a in the in a non-gressive non um

uh you know entitled way privileged way as you said is when a woman is upset the words what do

you need? H that is water in the desert.

you need? H that is water in the desert.

>> And uh perhaps also what do you need from me right now?

>> What do you need from me right now?

>> Okay, great. I'm just trying to um put some structure on this because as there is also something about the Y chromosome like we respond well to simple instructions.

>> Okay, I'll take that.

>> I I I believe that I have a whole theory about why chromosomes and and how men evolve to be the way that we are. We can

talk about maybe at the end for fun because it's somewhat facicious but not really. And then the the next thing that

really. And then the the next thing that you were saying, and I think this is so critical about self-esteem, is the ability to

accept responsibility when we screw up and at the same time not take ourselves into a place of shame, to be able to still hold on to one sense of

goodness.

>> I'm a good guy who screwed up. I'm a

good guy who behaved badly. What if the words coming at you are not of that?

It's not, "Hey, listen. I'm upset cuz you really dropped the ball on this thing." It's, "I'm upset cuz you really

thing." It's, "I'm upset cuz you really dropped the ball on this thing." And

you're and it becomes character uh, you know characterological assassination.

>> Yeah.

>> That takes an extra level of work.

>> It does.

>> And in that case, is your recommendation to try and counter that or to just sit with it and do the work internally to say that's not true? Well, good luck countering it. How's that working?

countering it. How's that working?

Listen, uh, this is a trap. And look,

I'm a First of all, the thing is this, the lack of self-esteem leads us guys to be unaccountable in our relationships.

When we're confronted with an imperfection, we're going to go into shame. We don't

have the capacity to feel proportionately bad about the imperfection. Okay, you're right. I

imperfection. Okay, you're right. I

screwed up. What can I do to help? It's

like, oh, you mean I didn't hit a homer and that means I'm a loser. And we

defend against the overwhelm of our own lack of selfworth.

What do you mean I'm not perfect? We

defend against that awful feeling. And

it's an awful feeling by warding off the criticism. Well, wait a minute. You have

criticism. Well, wait a minute. You have

to understand. Well, you I mean, you know, we do all these defensive things that women always complain we do and we do because we're protecting oursel from the overwhelm of getting swamped. I'm a

bad guy. So,

interestingly, I teach men self-esteem as a way of helping them be accountable in their relationship.

>> Interesting.

>> If you don't have healthy self-esteem, you can't afford to be accountable because it's too overwhelming to admit how imperfect you are.

>> This is so important what you're saying.

Um, also for people who aren't in romantic relationship, for men it's so critical because look, we could, in my mind, we

could easily transpose boss or feedback.

Absolutely. And there's I feel like, and again, forgive me for kind of going slow here. Um, but I feel like parsing some

here. Um, but I feel like parsing some of this into a structure is going to help me and hopefully help other people.

They're kind of two forms of criticism that perhaps I've experienced in life.

I'm being I'm joking. Of course I've experienced it. One is

experienced it. One is someone is upset about what I did.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. And I hear you loud and clear even if it's coming at me with characterological assassination to have the internal reservoir of self-esteem that I can hear

that what happens to us. And look, I I've been married 40 years. It's me too.

We get caught in the horrible delivery and we react to the horrible delivery.

You know, come on. It's not that bad. Or

well, hey, you're talking horrible.

[gasps] Uh, a black belt in a relational guy. You

duck under the horrible delivery. I'm

not saying it's not horrible. It is. But

you try and get to the point that the person's trying to make. Why? It's

jiu-jitsu. You duck under the horrible delivery. You deal with their ouch. And

delivery. You deal with their ouch. And

guess what happens? They calm down.

>> Sure. You react to the horrible delivery. That's exaggerated. Blah blah

delivery. That's exaggerated. Blah blah

blah. You're and well, you're off to the races. So, but oh my god, what an

races. So, but oh my god, what an enlightened man. Your your partner or

enlightened man. Your your partner or your boss or your kid is saying, "You're a shitty human being. You know, this isn't about your bad behavior. You're

just a rotten person." That's shame. You

have enough boundaries. You have enough self-esteem to go, "Well, they're being abusive. This is not the best part of

abusive. This is not the best part of them." But rather than react to that,

them." But rather than react to that, what are you so upset about, honey? What

can I give you right now? And oof, the beauty of these skills is that they work.

You know, you react to the bad behavior on your partner's part and you're off.

This goes on for hours, days. You duck

under that and go, "Okay, you're upset.

What can I do to help you?" and you that all of that toxicity just passes through you. That's a real man. And it's like

you. That's a real man. And it's like something that could have been misery for a day to a week, it it calms down in

10, 15 minutes because it's a good job.

And when I talk to guys, I want to redefine strength.

strength in the way we normally think of, you know, it's it's the rumble and you give me your best shot. I give you my best shot. I like jiu-jitsu.

Duck under it. Duck under the wave. And

at the at the end, instead of saying, "I was really strong. I didn't put up with that I stood up." No, I want you to say, "I was really elegant. I

just sidestepped that whole thing." And

what might have been a struggle that would go on for days, I just diffused in 10 minutes. Aren't I cool? That's a real

10 minutes. Aren't I cool? That's a real man in my book.

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Two questions about this scenario that we've kind of got um structured here. Um

there are at least two general types of uh criticism. One is you did something

uh criticism. One is you did something you screwed up.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it you screwed up. You you did the wrong thing. You did the bad thing. You

wrong thing. You did the bad thing. You

did something poorly. The other is upset about what you didn't do.

>> Okay.

>> And in my limit I'm not a clinician obviously, you know, but in my um limited number of uh interactions with men where they they share about a frustration could be from a boss, could

be from um a partner. [clears throat]

oftentime it's it's what about it's what they didn't do.

>> Yeah.

>> And they'll confide that the reason they didn't do it, the reason it seemed like they didn't think about it is because they are awfully busy doing all the

other things that come with being a provider and a partner uh entails.

Um and there's the real world constraints of time, right? And and so it's not like, oh, you know, you forgot the anniversary or you forgot the present. It's not not this. It's the

present. It's not not this. It's the

it's the the things that never get asked for that someone doesn't just naturally see. But I'm a vision scientist first

see. But I'm a vision scientist first and a neuroscientist second really. And

um we have giant blind spots about certain things. Women see and hear

certain things. Women see and hear things that we just don't.

>> Yes.

>> And men see and hear things that women just cannot see. No, you're not allowed to say that. It's very politically incorrect. But like men see things in

incorrect. But like men see things in women that they can't see. Women see

things in men that they can't see. This

idea that women are all knowing and men are dopes >> is part of what it's part of what got us here.

>> That's true. That's true.

>> You know, this notion of like, you know, the Homer Simpson type thing, >> you know. Um, now there are certainly men like that, but I would say there's a real world version of Homer Simpson that

was actually working very steadily at his job trying to make things work, you know, to, you know, uh, so when it comes to dealing with criticism about what one did not do,

>> yeah, >> I can imagine same rules apply, but I think it's only fair to say what

aspect of this falls on the partner and the way They raise an issue.

>> Yeah, >> obviously characterological assassinations are not going to help.

>> They make the jiu-jitsu harder.

>> It makes it harder to accept responsibility, but it's going to happen. It's going to scale with how bad

happen. It's going to scale with how bad the infraction was. Right. Okay. Um, but

what is a healthy delivery of a criticism? Is it all eye statements? Is

criticism? Is it all eye statements? Is

it purely based on how one feels? Um,

I'm not trying to distribute responsibility here, but let's be honest, it's a two-way street.

>> It's more than a two-way street. And

again, let's own these are broad generalities. We we both understand

generalities. We we both understand that, but we we're speaking simply because we got to start somewhere.

>> So, I teach women, too, how to be relational. I'm not saying men aren't

relational. I'm not saying men aren't relational, and women are. We're both

pretty screwed up in this in this culture. And uh the the tough news for a

culture. And uh the the tough news for a lot of women uh I I have 8 million sayings and one of them is you don't have the right to get mad about not

getting what you never asked for.

>> Could you repeat that?

>> You don't have the right to get mad about not getting what you never asked for. And that's a that's women stepping

for. And that's a that's women stepping out of their traditional role. What do

you mean I have to tell them? like

Prince Charming should just know if I have to tell him it doesn't count. I

mean, I literally hear that. And you

know what I say is, "Well, gals, uh, uh, Cinderella's dead. Uh, Prince Charming

Cinderella's dead. Uh, Prince Charming probably just came out of rehab, and I hate to tell you, but I know it's not romantic, but if you want something from

your guy, you're going to have to roll up your sleeves and fight for it. You're

going to have to assert what you want and then teach him what you want." And

there are three steps of getting more of what you want in a relationship. And

this particularly true for women because they're the ones carrying the dissatisfaction. One, dare to rock the

dissatisfaction. One, dare to rock the boat. Honey, this is really important to

boat. Honey, this is really important to me. I don't think you've been listening.

me. I don't think you've been listening.

You better pay attention. Two, once the guy is on board, okay, what do you what do I need? Teach him. Don't expect them to know. I've been listening to women

to know. I've been listening to women for 40 years tell me men don't know how to be relational. Guess what? I believe

you. So, how are they going to know how to be relational if you don't tell them?

Not that you're the objective teacher.

That's a trap. But subjectively with humility, this is Sally instructions.

This is what I want from you to make me happy. But roll up your sleeves and show

happy. But roll up your sleeves and show them what you want and then reward them when they try and give it to you. People

don't do any of that in in this culture.

You know, the the concrete example is uh John Gray, God bless him, made millions of dollars on this. Men problem

solve listening and women want empathic listening. There's nothing wrong with

listening. There's nothing wrong with either. What's wrong is it doesn't get

either. What's wrong is it doesn't get negotiated up front. So, I teach women to say, "Listen, I'm going to talk to you about a fight I had with a girlfriend. 10, 15 minutes." First of

girlfriend. 10, 15 minutes." First of all, it helps to limit it. Guys here, we have to talk. They think they're in to 4 in the morning. 15 minutes. In that 15

minutes, I want you to be like a girlfriend. I want there. That sucks.

girlfriend. I want there. That sucks.

Tell me more about I want you to do empathically. This is what it looks

empathically. This is what it looks like. We're passive in our

like. We're passive in our relationships. We let we let each other

relationships. We let we let each other do what we do and then we complain about it. We can do shape it up. More

it. We can do shape it up. More

assertion up front, less resentment on the back end. So roll up your sleeves and teach your guy what you want. I

don't want you to solve my problems. I want you to do this instead. as a favor to me, would you do it? Not, I'm God's gift to relationship. This is what you need. No, as a favor to me, would you do

need. No, as a favor to me, would you do it? And then three, once the guy starts

it? And then three, once the guy starts to do it, encourage him. Don't

discourage him. We all, oh, too little, too late. You did a half. I tell women,

too late. You did a half. I tell women, celebrate the glass 14% full. It was

only 5% full a week ago. Hey, you did a halfass job. Good for you. what are we

halfass job. Good for you. what are we going to do to get the other half on? Uh

but we're discouraging people because we don't want to be vulnerable and receive.

There's an art to receiving. So there's

an art on both sides of how to work a relationship.

And um I have to teach women how to be more um empowering of their partner and less complaining of them. Uh, and I

believe in that and that's that's often their work. Uh, but you can't sit around

their work. Uh, but you can't sit around and wait for your partner to do it right. You have to be able to respond

right. You have to be able to respond whether on Tuesday they do it beautifully. On Thursday, they're a

beautifully. On Thursday, they're a goddamn but you still have to respond well. This is your own

respond well. This is your own integrity. And it's a great freedom to

integrity. And it's a great freedom to uh take it upon yourself to behave with integrity and skill independent of what your partner's doing

on their side of the seessaw. It doesn't

always work, but it's your best shot.

And uh you don't have to be a slave to their immaturity. If every time they're

their immaturity. If every time they're immature, you jump in the mud pit with them. You're a flag in their wind. It's

them. You're a flag in their wind. It's

liberating. You're immature right now.

I could be immature five minutes from now, but I'm going to meet your immaturity with my maturity right now.

That is a very beautiful thing.

Amazing. uh question about childhood patterns, but rather than get right into the parents piece of it,

>> Mhm. which I want to um have this very

>> Mhm. which I want to um have this very crude model in my head that goes something like we all have an like an inner child or a childlike part of ourselves and there's a healthy part and

an unhealthy part because it's kind of wonderful at least in my experience um to be in the company of someone especially a romantic partner where you can be in your kind of like childlike uh

>> I call that the natural child >> the natural child right it's healthy it's explorative it's fun it's it's sweet and um and um and sometimes it's mischievous. Um I've certainly observed

mischievous. Um I've certainly observed that. Um

that. Um >> but it's lovable.

>> It's very lovable. Uh and then there's the unhealthy uh child and that could take the form of, you know, brattiness, entitlement, um whatever, closing up. I

mean, it could be any variety of things.

Um I imagine that a great number of people listening to this conversation are in relationship and a great number of them are not. how much work and what kind of

are not. how much work and what kind of work can be done to understand those two parts of oneself on one's own maybe even if you're in a relationship because uh

that unhealthy child is a very uh dangerous thing to show up >> yes >> in relationship it can be very destructive very fast >> um so if I were a patient [laughter] >> uh client I don't know what you call

them do you call them clients >> customer no client >> client if I were a client and I just said okay yeah I I don't want to talk about my parents parents right now. We

can do that later. Um, but I know the healthy childlike part of myself and I think I know the unhealthy one and then like what's some good work that I could do to have those understood and and have them in their proper place.

>> Yeah.

>> So that I make sure that I keep like the bad child like Andrew locked away and the good child like Andrew >> at appropriate times let him out to

play. Right. I mean, I'm very fortunate

play. Right. I mean, I'm very fortunate that my girlfriend now like she's very good at expressing that healthy child, the natural child part of her and she's also a woman and that part just shuts

down and then she can be in that mode or and they uh you know I've seen this before. It's really wonderful to

before. It's really wonderful to experience to and when those mesh very seamlessly it's also just awesome.

You're like wow it's like total ninja virtuoso of this.

>> Yeah.

>> Let's say I'm not then what does the work look like? Okay. So, first of all, it um you're in relationships. Anybody

listening to this podcast is in a relationship. It may not be an intimate

relationship. It may not be an intimate sexual relationship, but you've got a boss, you've got colleagues, you've got aunts and uncles, you have cousins, you

have a dog. We're all embedded in relationships. And the work is the same

relationships. And the work is the same uh no matter what. Uh relational skills are relational skills. So, I don't care whether you're single or whether you've

been married for 40 years. That's the

same thing that that's a. So here's my model. That natural child, leave him be,

model. That natural child, leave him be, enjoy, let him play, love him, enjoy him. That's our

creativity. And and interestingly enough, that's erotic in the broadest sense of the word. It's that's the life force. That's spontaneity. And you know,

force. That's spontaneity. And you know, that's unhampered, unwounded. Uh that's a beautiful part of

unwounded. Uh that's a beautiful part of us. Um that's fine. Leave it alone.

us. Um that's fine. Leave it alone.

Celebrate it.

What you call the unhealthy child.

Here's my model.

And uh interestingly, this jibes with Dan Seagull, the neuro uh scientist. Um

so I talk about the wise adult part of us, prefrontal cortex that can stop and think and reason and choose. That's the part I'm trying to

choose. That's the part I'm trying to grow and cultivate and give skills to.

The issue is when the heat comes on uh and it really has to do with trauma.

When something happens in the present that is similar to what was dangerous or injured us in the past could be a violation, could be abandonment. It

could be either an act of uh mistreatment or neglect. either

when something in the present, you know this, of course, we don't remember trauma, we relive it. So the combat bit hears a car backfire and turns around like she's got a gun in her hand. She's

not thinking, I'm walking down Main Street remembering combat. She's in

combat. The the the present goes away and it's subcortical lyic system amydala and you get flooded.

That's what we call the wounded child.

Very young when I do experiential work with somebody first minutes of life through four or five years old. And

that's all feeling that that's the part of you that just experienced it. Between

this very mature present-based part of us and this totally flooded, very primitive part of us is the part you call the bad child. I call it the

adaptive child.

This is the you that you learn to be to cope with whatever was going on with you. And it's

neither, you know, fight, flight, or fawn. Uh, it's automatic. It's

fawn. Uh, it's automatic. It's

subcortical. And it's utterly compelling. I've got to stand up for

compelling. I've got to stand up for myself. I've got to shut this down. I've

myself. I've got to shut this down. I've

got to fix you if you're upset or I won't. These are basic, you know, these

won't. These are basic, you know, these are animal survival instincts.

And when you're in the adaptive child, you won't use relational skills because you're not interested in relationship.

You're interested in survival. It's

literally a different part of our neurology.

And the work I do, I call it relational mindfulness.

When you're flooded, you got to bring the prefrontal cortex back online. Take

a walk. Take 10 breaths. Go around the block. Take a break. I'm a big fan of

block. Take a break. I'm a big fan of breaks. Get reentered in the more

breaks. Get reentered in the more thoughtful, non- flooded part of you.

Dan calls it the responsive brain instead of the reactive brain. When

you're reentered, I call it remembering love. You remember the person you're

love. You remember the person you're talking to as someone you care about.

Then you go back and you you you try.

But we all struggle with these adaptive child parts. I deal with couples on the

child parts. I deal with couples on the brink of divorce. Almost all of them have been living in their adaptive child thinking that that's an adult. And the

world will reward you. The world will reward an adaptive child, but you'll make a hash in your family life. So

fight, flight, or fix. Anybody listening today, when you're flooded, when you're an automatic, because that's the hallmark

of the adaptive child is automatic.

Fight, flight, or fix. What are you and what's your partner? And then what's the dance between you? The more I fight, the more they fix. The more they fix. Okay.

The way out of this is to bring your thinking brain back online. And the the beauty here is that capacity. I call it

relational mindfulness. That capacity to

relational mindfulness. That capacity to remember to think to bring yourself back into the present can be cultivated and

grown. So can I give you a story? Enough

grown. So can I give you a story? Enough

talk. Let me tell >> I I I Yes, please. Uh before I just want to make sure I ask one question about when one enters this adaptive child. I

think that's how the which is reactive in the moment at worst and one can learn to dance with that and uh turn on their prefrontal cortex and and remind

themselves this is a relationship that I care about and there's etc. um taking space a break is is something >> essential >> is essential.

>> What's the best way to ask for that?

Because here's perhaps something I've observed. Um

observed. Um things are getting ratcheted up internally, maybe both people, and you need space.

>> Yes. You ask for space like, "Hey, I I need to take a break to be able to hear this." Or and then the other person gets

this." Or and then the other person gets very upset because it activates their sense of abandonment.

>> Exactly.

>> And it runs countercurrent to this idea that we need to stand in the face of it, jiu-jitsu it, etc. Like that it's a it's a pause. We're not talking about like,

a pause. We're not talking about like, hey, I'm leaving for a week. We're not

talking about I'm leaving for an hour even. It's just need to decompress this.

even. It's just need to decompress this.

Um, if that's met with additional criticism about the request, um, that can be problematic.

>> Yeah. And common is mud. So, here's what you do.

Contract for it when the heat is not on.

Listen, honey. I get flooded and you don't want me flooded. I'm not nice. I

won't be nice. I won't be skilled when I'm flooded. I need to collect myself.

I'm flooded. I need to collect myself.

It's in your interest to let me go collect yourself.

Um, I have a skill for everything. And

this is a skill I call responsible distance taking. Most of us take

distance taking. Most of us take unilateral. I'm just I'm gone. No, I'm

unilateral. I'm just I'm gone. No, I'm

gone. Here's why. And here's when I'm coming back. It's not a rupture. It's a

coming back. It's not a rupture. It's a

break. So, if I have a partner who's vulnerable to abandonment, if I go, I'm gone. Boom. They're chasing

me.

This is a good example of relational skill. If I want distance, let me take

skill. If I want distance, let me take care of my partner so she'll give me distance. If I don't take care of you,

distance. If I don't take care of you, I'm going to get chased. Is in my interest to behave with skill. So I say to you, when we're not flooded,

let's have a contract. I get flooded. We

don't like it when I get flooded. I want

to take a break. Here's what it looks like. 15, 20 minutes and then I'm back.

like. 15, 20 minutes and then I'm back.

If I'm not in control, I'll text you or call you and say, "I need another I'll negotiate with you, but I'm not going to leave you. I'm not going to be

leave you. I'm not going to be irresponsible. It's not unilateral and

irresponsible. It's not unilateral and it's not forever. I will be back.

What do you need in order to be calm enough to let me go?"

Uh, and nine out of 10en times is like, "This contract is fine. Remind me of the contract. I'm taking a time out so I can

contract. I'm taking a time out so I can be with you.

20 minutes I'll be back. Here's why.

Here's when I'm coming back." Okay. No

abandonment. Leave those steps out. You

get abandonment. So, it's a really good example of how using relational skills in your interests.

>> That's very helpful. Thank you. I also

realize that how resourced one shows up to interactions like this is a big part of it. I mean, if you're sleepd deprived, overworked. I mean,

you've got stuff coming at you from other angles. kid has been up all night,

other angles. kid has been up all night, you know, it financial issues, you know, if the well is low,

um, access to these skills becomes infinitely harder >> harder and I don't believe in pleading special

circumstances. This is relentless.

circumstances. This is relentless.

You don't get a pass. I don't care if you're up all night with the kids. I be

be immature. be unskilled.

I I can understand why you would be and brother, you'll pay the price. So, yeah,

I get it. You're sleepd deprived. It's

harder to be mature. And when you behave immaturely, this is the crap you're going to wind up with. It's instant

karma. So, the beauty in this is remembering it's in my interest to behave artfully. It's not for them. And

behave artfully. It's not for them. And

one of my sons is uh in residency right now and he's out of his mind and he's sleepd deprived. And so we don't hear

sleepd deprived. And so we don't hear from him for, you know, a week. And um

uh and his mom calls. I'm worried about you. I've been calling. You don't text.

you. I've been calling. You don't text.

I'm worried you're like dead on the street. You know, I know I'm crazy, but

street. You know, I know I'm crazy, but I'm worried about you. He says, "You know, I called uh and you you weren't there." I said,

"Well, did you leave a message?" "No." I

said, 'Well, why didn't you leave a message? You don't understand what it's

message? You don't understand what it's like in I didn't have it in me. And

okay, listen, pal. Leave a 10second message. I'm alive. I'm fine. Don't

message. I'm alive. I'm fine. Don't

worry about me. You'll you'll wind up having less to deal with. If you put 10 seconds into it, then if you don't put the 10 seconds into it, and then you've

got mom on the phone talking to you for 20 minutes about, you know, why can't you be a more responsible? It's up to you. But it's an investment in your

you. But it's an investment in your future, your well-being. It's what the prefrontal cortex knows that the lyic

system doesn't is it's in my interest to behave well because I'll get less for it. I don't mean to jump into family

for it. I don't mean to jump into family matters, but uh having come from the not medical but science profession, your son had some overlap with places I've been and people we know. Um I don't know him,

but I'm about to advocate for him here.

I I suspect maybe ask him. I suspect

that the >> could be wrong, but part of the reason he didn't leave a message is when you get like your son got three degrees from

>> an elite university. He is a doing his residency in medicine. Uh he's clearly a high achiever. Uh and he's involved in

high achiever. Uh and he's involved in other things as well. Um

>> the 10-second message is very hard for a high achiever. It's like you either do

high achiever. It's like you either do things really well or you don't do them.

And this is I I'm probably just projecting myself into this here.

Sometimes the reason I don't respond to things is I'm like, I can't do it well.

So I'm not going to do it at all. They

told us that if you're not going to do something well, don't do it. You know

how you do one thing. And it turns out it's so silly, right? Because not doing it for 10 seconds is clearly way worse than doing it 10 seconds becomes perfect

under the circumstances. But high

achievers don't hear that. So here I am advocating for your son. I don't even uh [laughter] really know him. But but I'm going to but and I don't do it because I want to bail him out. I think everything you're

saying is is spoton. I just what I felt in that example like oh gosh like I can't help but I know that feeling. You

want to do it so badly, but you don't want to do it poorly, so you don't do it.

>> Yeah. But that's not relational. Sure.

And medicine is saturated with patriarchy. This is all, you know, the

patriarchy. This is all, you know, the hazing that goes on. This is all masculinity. It's just like boot camp.

masculinity. It's just like boot camp.

And for the Marines and this notion that you either do it excellently or you don't do it all is another, it deprivives us of being human beings with each other. It's it really gets in the

each other. It's it really gets in the way.

So, yeah, you're right. I'm sure that's what he's thinking. And also, take a step back. What is in my interest? A

step back. What is in my interest? A

10-second message or a 20-minute conversation? I'm busy. What do I want

conversation? I'm busy. What do I want to do here? And this is how we have to start thinking. We we're we're not

start thinking. We we're we're not individuals.

That's the great fallacy. We're living

in a context.

>> Our relationships are our biospheres.

We're not we're not separated from them.

We're in them. And it's in my interest to do what the biosphere needs because I'm incited.

That's the new news. That's my message to the world. The great mistake this culture has made. the the father of family therapy, Gregory Bas, an

anthropologist married to Margaret me, genius man, called it humankind's uh epistemological philosophical mistake that we stand outside of nature. You

know, I get these big burly I tough I I I deal with tough guys. I get these gly why should I have to work so hard to please my wife? I go knock you live with

her. It's like we have lost the wisdom

her. It's like we have lost the wisdom of ecology. You're in this together. You

of ecology. You're in this together. You

know, indigenous people around the world understand this. We don't. We're not

understand this. We don't. We're not

above nature dominating it. And for

traditional women, we're not below nature upregulating it enabling code.

No, we're in it. is in my interest to do what the biosphere needs because I'm breathing it. This is a whole new world

breathing it. This is a whole new world for most of the people that I work with.

And by the way, this to me is the essence of the new masculinity >> to understand life as a human as relational

>> relational and ecological.

>> I'm not above it. I'm in it and I'm a steward of it. It's in my interest to give to my biosphere. That is wisdom.

>> There must be a place for men to develop some of these skills in the company of other men because that

traditionally was the way it was done, right? Even if we look back to the you

right? Even if we look back to the you know um not so much the ' 40s um because the world was in a different sort of duress um but in the 50s and 60s um

there was a certain kind of socializing that >> men did. It was

>> still today.

>> It was it was often around alcohol um >> and sports.

>> Yeah. Brief brief uh anecdote around that. When I started graduate school, um

that. When I started graduate school, um it was amazing that every Friday they would do a seminar and then people they' have some food and people would go home.

And I was told by a chair of department, he said, "Do you know that for something like 30 years in this room, it was called the beach room named after Frank Beach at at UC Berkeley, one of the

great biocsychologists and endocrinologists.

Frank Beach and colleagues would get together. It was all men then. um

together. It was all men then. um

every single evening, not Fridays, every single evening and get trashed.

>> Yeah.

>> And then basically stagger home to their families. This was like how it was done.

families. This was like how it was done.

>> Yeah.

>> Very very different time. And it was standard.

>> It was standard. People smoked men smoked and drank and then >> got drunk and went home. Okay. That was

real.

>> And obviously that's not the way it is now.

And I said, "Well, what would you guys talk about?" And you imagine that it

talk about?" And you imagine that it would all be about, you know, um kind of like fraternity talk and locker room talk. He said, "No, we would talk about

talk. He said, "No, we would talk about science. We'd talk about grants." Um

science. We'd talk about grants." Um

occasionally people would talk about what was going on with their families, but I said, "Why did people do it?" And

he said, "It just felt really good to be able to relax and say whatever you wanted." Obviously, there were no phones

wanted." Obviously, there were no phones then or even the internet. And it was kind of an end of day catharsis. And I

said, "On average, do you think those men showed up drunk? Obviously, better

or worse when they got home?" And he said, "Oh, that was our therapy. That

was absolutely our therapy." Now, I don't doubt that there were elements of abuse and all sorts of things that go with alcoholism. I've been very vocal

with alcoholism. I've been very vocal about the fact that I'm I'm discouraging of people to drink, certainly if they want to be healthier in very very low

moderation perhaps, but zero is better than any. But where do men go now to

than any. But where do men go now to relate to one another in a way that builds healthy relating with romantic partners? Builds healthy

relating at work because I'll tell you just even the notion I know because I've been told just the notion of men gathering scares the hell out of a lot of people. The immediate assumption is

of people. The immediate assumption is when guys get together bad things happen. This is this is the idea. But I

happen. This is this is the idea. But I

also think that we've um erased some very powerful vessels for self-standing and for relating and for and also for throwing off some of the

stresses of the day that frankly don't need to walk in the door at home. And so

guys are trying to do it all alone or on their phones. And then people wonder,

their phones. And then people wonder, and there are a lot of reasons for this, but then people wonder why there's so much dissociation and distraction and

and worse by way of social media. It's

like if guys can't hang out and talk, they not say drink, but if they can't hang out and talk, then how are they supposed to be their best selves when they go back to their families?

>> You're dead right. And you know, we talk about the epidemic of loneliness. We're

talking about men, you know, um heterero couple, uh the the man dies, women do okay. The woman dies,

men are in deep trouble. The single men uh are the greatest public health crisis uh around. And we've talked about

uh around. And we've talked about relational skills with your family, your woman, your partner if you're gay. Um,

how about relational skills with pals?

And I work with men around getting friends.

Uh, many of the men that I work with have few to no friends. And I have, it's part of my therapy. I want you to start having friends. And I want them deeper.

having friends. And I want them deeper.

And I teach men. Okay. So, the six guys you go golfing with and you talk about sports and politics and maybe about your wives a little bit.

I I I want you to try pick one that you think might be most receptive and share something a little more vulnerable with them. You know, I've been

uh I've had chronic back pain and I'm I'm getting old.

It's a little scary. Or if you're a young man, I've been out of work for 14 months and I'm getting show some vulner

Oh yeah, what about those socks? Well,

he ain't having it. Okay, nice

experiment. You're done with Steve. Go

back to your superficial relationship.

Enjoy it. [gasps] You talk to Dave and Dave, you know, I can really hear you, man. That's tough. I I've been worried

man. That's tough. I I've been worried too about blah blah blah blah blah my dick ain't working the way it used to and all of a sudden you're having a

hearttohe heart in a way that you may never have had in your life before. So I

teach men to experiment and to try and drive their relationships deeper by sharing more and seeing what they get.

It's not a shoe in this guy may be great that you have to be discriminating.

It's just in brain death. Protect

yourself. Be discriminating, but also be courageous. Open up and try a little

courageous. Open up and try a little more. Uh the crisis of men being alone

more. Uh the crisis of men being alone and not having other men to support them and share uh is one of the great

problems in modern society. Uh on the other hand, [snorts] I had the privilege of being and many of your uh listeners

are too young for this, but uh there was a great guy, Robert Bllye. Uh he wrote Iron John and he was a >> great book.

>> Yeah. And amazing book.

>> He was like the Mr. Men's movement, guys drumming in the woods.

>> And I went to Moose uh Lodge and I was invited.

>> So you met him? I did one of the one of the men's weekends drumming in the woods with Robert and the guys.

>> I I love the book. I think that has some brilliant insight about um all boys's relationship to their fathers, even if they didn't know their fathers. And uh

there's this wonderful and terrifying passage in there.

Wonderful because it's so astute.

terrifying because it's terrifying which is it is the places of absence of the father that the demons enter a young boy.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. That's absolutely true.

>> And something like that. And Bllye is a great writer and I didn't capture it well. But that whether or not someone

well. But that whether or not someone had a close relationship with their father and he was very present or they didn't there there are these like um I think of them as actual like physical shards of of shadow

>> a wound, >> right? that that that's where addiction

>> right? that that that's where addiction shows up later. That's where all sorts of things show. It depends on the circumstances. But BL Bllye um BL was

circumstances. But BL Bllye um BL was really ahead of his time. It's awesome

that you trained with him.

>> Yeah. No, we dance we did Sufi dances together and >> Oh, so he was into the hippie thing too.

>> Drumming in the woods and and he was tribal.

>> Tribal. So forgive me. I wasn't trying to be pjorative. I'm from Palo Alto. The

Grateful Dead are from Palto. I get a hippie pass.

>> Anyway, listen. Um, so there was a wonderful shaman. I got to tell you this

wonderful shaman. I got to tell you this story. We've been so straight, but I

story. We've been so straight, but I just love this story. So he brought in BL um adolescence. He had all these guys boomer guys in their 50s and 60s, me

included. And he trucked in Bloods and

included. And he trucked in Bloods and Crips, not only teenagers, but teenagers from urban gangs to do this thing. And he

really strongly believed that older men needed to teach younger men how to be in on the planet that there was an initiation that was missing in our culture. And Martin Prel the the shaman

culture. And Martin Prel the the shaman as these kids were getting off the bus.

I love this. He told I wasn't there. He

told the story though I was in he he he give me a sheet. He held out a big sheet on the ground. He goes old cre shaman custom. This is a sacred weekend. We

custom. This is a sacred weekend. We

must divest of all metal. All metal goes on the sheet. And these gang members are like knives, brass knuckles, chains, guns. All of their weapons were all

guns. All of their weapons were all good. Good. There wasn't an old that's

good. Good. There wasn't an old that's It was just made up.

>> He was just divesting them of their weapons for the weekend. But anyway, but even there, I mean, you can go on YouTube and see this. When I when it was my turn to speak to the men, I said,

"This is beautiful what we're doing with each other. It's beautiful. It's

each other. It's beautiful. It's

necessary. And now we have to take it home to our families. It's great for us to be intimate with each other, but we can't be intimate with each other for the weekend and go home and be

to our wives and kids." It's an amazing story at so many levels and it brings to mind something I've been thinking about for a number of years which is okay I wasn't in a university fraternity but I

sort of uh I entered a fraternity of way back when and got involved in skateboarding when there were no parents involved there no girls or women involved there was like one or two but it was like just a bunch of >> guy territory

>> it was all guys and the interesting thing about skateboarding is it's um to this day you can be 13 and you're hanging out with people that are in their 30s and 40s right so that was First I used to say non-biological family but it was a fraternity of sorts.

You sort of like I want to be in and then there's a bunch of tests or not tests and you're you're part of it and then eventually I joined the fraternity of science and research which is its own

very interesting different podcast topic fraternity um with its own great aspects and its own complete and uh you

know etc. is like any fraternity, >> right?

>> When you talk about the crisis of loneliness, especially among men, but even for people who are perhaps happily or at least amicably in relationship, I

feel like what's missing are these quote unquote fraternities >> that, you know, they don't they're harder to access now. Um, and people have gone online. I actually think part

of the the success of of podcasts um certain podcasts in particular has been because um you know if you didn't uh you know go to the military or something you

watch a Jaco Willing podcast and I mean Jaco Willing looks like the modern general Patton >> and he's a very nice guy but he's he's a nononsense guy. I mean he's a very kind

nononsense guy. I mean he's a very kind amazing father amazing husband to his wife and and great friend and it but he's a he's a warrior. He's a legitimate warrior. And so

warrior. And so young men and old men uh now go online to be to feel like part of a fraternity to access these different fraternity so to speak.

>> But I think there's real value in the in-person um work and collaboration and to some extent what I described before about the the the excessive drinking at the end of the day in the beach room and

Tolman Hall at Berkeley that took place in the you know 40s 50s and 60s that was a fraternity.

>> I had it in family therapy.

>> Yeah. and and but it it was an important part of learning not just the conventions of the job you're in but where you sit in this you

know it's a very touchy word it's like a third rail word word nowadays this the the hierarchy right but the way I see hierarchy among men is very different I feel like within a fraternity you figure

out not where you sit on a kind of staircase you figure out what you're good at what you're less good at what you might get better at and what you'll never get good at. And then you kind of

arrange yourselves in a group that you go, "This is great. I'm really good at certain things, terrible at others, and so so at others." Fortunately, there's complimentarity here. They're really

complimentarity here. They're really good at other things, and so you can learn, and you feel empowered in the best sense of the word because you're like, "Yeah, we're kind of a a force

because there's no there's no major gaps here, but not because everyone's validating each other and you're interested in going out and doing bad things." I actually think this is why

things." I actually think this is why people go into gangs.

>> Gangs are >> It's a fraternity.

>> Gangs are >> It's a fraternity. And and the home was never the place where you were supposed to feel fraternity. And I think this is

a difficult one for men and women to understand and hear, but especially men nowadays where young guys will come to me and they'll be like, I don't know what to do. What should I study? What

should I do? This is not the Stanford students. These are the some failure to

students. These are the some failure to launch or potential failure to launch kids. You know, parents now call me,

kids. You know, parents now call me, text me, they get a hold of me. My kid

is a and I'm like, they have no fraternity, >> right?

>> Their fraternity is video games. That's

not a fraternity. They don't have a group that they can go to to figure out what they're good at, what they suck at, and what they could get better at. And

so they walk around, and I do, forgive me, but for going long, but I think that but because online you can see all the fraternities. What I also hear is

fraternities. What I also hear is they're overwhelmed. They're like,

they're overwhelmed. They're like, "Wait, I'm supposed to work out. I'm

supposed to also eat right. I'm supposed

to be empathically attuned. I'm supposed

to be a provider and protector. I'm

supposed to, you know, and they're like, "Holy like this is really tough."

I was fortunate that, and you were fortunate that we grew up in a time where the models were whatever we were interacting with, like when I decided to go into the fraternity of science. Sure,

I kept exercising and stuff, but what I was like, "Okay, how do I get good at this thing? Who who are the good

this thing? Who who are the good mentors? Who are the pieces of

mentors? Who are the pieces of mentors? we all talked and you're in

mentors? we all talked and you're in this fraternity and you learn. Now, that

fraternity included women because academia, at least in biology at that time, was about 50/50.

>> Okay?

>> At the faculty level, it it's a steep shift. That's changed somewhat now. But

shift. That's changed somewhat now. But

the point being, >> it was never about getting everything from your romantic relationship. The

learning, the indoctrination, the learning of self >> and the kind of self-esteem and acceptance, a lot of that happened in this context. And I understand there's

this context. And I understand there's not a car carryover of skills to the home necessarily, but it it filled a a good good fraction of the vessel of feeling like yeah, like I far from

perfect. Believe me, I'm replete with

perfect. Believe me, I'm replete with flaws to this day. I say it over and over again. Uh and it's true, but where

over again. Uh and it's true, but where are the fraternities that young men and older men can go to

if they don't have one?

>> It's tough. Uh, I I'm a big fan of do a men's group. I love men's groups. Pure,

men's group. I love men's groups. Pure,

you don't need a therapist to lead it.

Get together with four other guys and just start talking about your lives. Um,

do a bowling league. Um, the the only thing I want to say two things.

One is I want the fraternity to support your relationality, >> not your individual empowerment and entitlement.

>> Yeah. I I see fraternity as only being relational. Anything that you could do

relational. Anything that you could do on your own is not really relational.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. That in my mind it's sort of like >> Well, but to get together with four other guys and about what a rotten life this is and how women are, you know, be an incel. No that

>> well that that's happening online. I I I it might be happening in person but no I totally agree. I mean obviously it would

totally agree. I mean obviously it would be >> um to cultivate oneself.

>> Yeah. Not to because there's something I mean we all do it. We all complain from time to time although I have friends who don't have the circuits. Um it's really

impressive. But I think that complaining

impressive. But I think that complaining is a form of self abuse. I do. I think it's a I think the there's a threshold beyond which complaining becomes a form of

self- abuse.

>> Well, going back to having friends and training friends and cultivating friends, one of the things I teach guys is you want to train your friends to support your relationship, not your

individual empowerment.

So, oh my god, I had such a hard time with Belinda, blah blah blah blah blah.

I I don't want to hear you talk to me about what a she is. or maybe you can start that way, but pretty quickly what I want to hear is, okay, Terry,

what did you do to contribute to that?

And what might you do differently? I

want you to support the mature part of me and the relational part of me, not my individual empowerment. And we have to

individual empowerment. And we have to train people to do that because our culture will gravitate toward individual empowerment. I wouldn't put up with that

empowerment. I wouldn't put up with that if I was you. That's not the support I want.

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Recently, I've been approached again, parents will reach out and I have a real soft spot for for doing this and and and they'll say their son. It's their is always their son, right? They're no

one's reaching out about their daughter.

Um to me, they're saying, you know, my son is it's a real problem, right? Like

he either graduated college and he's going nowhere. These are smart kids. Or

going nowhere. These are smart kids. Or

they didn't graduate and and it's like getting scary now.

>> Yeah. uh and we had them checked out for the ADHD, the depression thing, and that nowadays there's all this information.

People try a bunch of things. It's just

very clear they're on not a good path.

When I talk to these guys, 100% of the time, what they are asking for is not to figure out how to be in relationship. In fact, in more than a

relationship. In fact, in more than a few cases, they're already in relationship and they have the really caring, wonderful partner. And sadly, a lot of these women have kind of gotten

used to the fact that a lot of guys are kind of failure to launch and she's taking off and he's at home and we don't know how that's going to play out. But

can't be good. Uh not in the long term.

But the questions are always to me are about what do I do? How how can I find a group? How can I find work? How can I be

group? How can I find work? How can I be part of something? They want to be part of something. and they're smart and

of something. and they're smart and their parents are smart. They're

realizing that just podcasts are great, but ultimately, you know, I mean, this isn't going to happen, but maybe maybe you watch one podcast a week and you get together with friends and you watch it and then you talk about it. Okay, that's

not going to happen. That's not really how it works. But

they're alone. They don't have male friends.

>> They don't have the golf buddies. And

this is, you know, this is a new thing to me like guys in these are guys in their 20s, sometimes in their 30s. And

very often they no knock against anti-depressants where sometimes they have their use but very often there's a story about they've been on you know four different medications for high

school and also for college they've got um sexual health issues maybe it's neurotic maybe it's biological related to the medications. Who knows? And

they're stressed about their hair falling out. They're stressed about all

falling out. They're stressed about all this stuff and they're completely overwhelmed.

>> Yeah. And my advice is always like, you know, to listen and it's not but I always think like the first thing is like again I have to be careful not to project what I did is like you have a

driver's license. Yeah. All right. Do

driver's license. Yeah. All right. Do

you know one person who's able-bodied who you trust? Yeah. All right. Go to

Yusede and hike.

Like that's my advice. It's not super sophisticated. Go. Like your phone won't

sophisticated. Go. Like your phone won't work. Go to Twami Meadows. Don't freeze

work. Go to Twami Meadows. Don't freeze

to death. like bring water. Don't be an idiot. Don't get Jardia. Like read a

idiot. Don't get Jardia. Like read a book or two online or like read a few things and just go to Yuseite and hike.

Like make a friend by going and doing something. That's cool.

something. That's cool.

>> And like >> cuz that's to be honest I I know what they want. They want a job. They want to

they want. They want a job. They want to come work at the podcast. But they don't actually want that because you come here and we're working, right? And we hang out. But the the I I've hearing this so

out. But the the I I've hearing this so often my phone I've got a list this long of guys. Some of them have have tried to

of guys. Some of them have have tried to harm themselves.

You know, I had a colleague kill himself recently.

>> I'm sorry.

>> Married two kids, kill himself. And I

realized I didn't help him the right way. He reached out about some things. I

way. He reached out about some things. I

should have said, "Get your stuff. We're

going to Yeuseite."

>> Like, you know, like we're taking a weekend and we're going hiking.

>> And it's it's really wild because I feel like there are certain things that you just can't do on your own.

>> Yeah. and all the stuff you're talking about, which is incredible about relating to romantic partner. These guys

have romantic partners, but they're collapsing independent of that.

>> That's not the only relationship you need to have.

>> You need to have a place in the world and you need to have good work and you need to have a purpose and you need to have community and you need to have other buddies and you can also have

buddies who are women too. I mean,

>> sure.

>> I I don't want to get so narrow in the idea of fraternity.

I'm going to say I want community.

>> Mhm.

>> Because you know why everybody's turning to you is like, will you be a good dad?

You be a mentor. Here, take my kid. And

[clears throat] they need you. Of

course, they do. Uh, and

you're right. Go be with somebody and you don't have to have a a heart-to-heart. I don't want you to have

heart-to-heart. I don't want you to have nobody that you can have a heartto-he heart with. But let's start somewhere

heart with. But let's start somewhere and just go be with someone. That's

community. And yes, men with men, but also just community in general. Um, it

doesn't have to be a man. And and I do want to say this.

Men don't exclusively need men to teach them how to be men. Lesbian parents can teach boys how to be men. Single moms

can teach boys how to be men. We get

obsessed with this idea that only a man can raise a boy. And the research is clear. That's just not true. I talk

clear. That's just not true. I talk

about we need grown-ups to teach children how to be grown-ups. And uh

yeah, I I if you're a boy, you want to have a few men who you can look up to, who you can go, "Oh yeah, I want to be like him." Of course, he we need that.

like him." Of course, he we need that.

And let's not get so obsessed about it that we disempower other people to be.

Some of my greatest mentors were women.

>> No. Likewise, my graduate mentor was a woman. I learned more about life from

woman. I learned more about life from her and and science than I could have ever imagined. Right. Um, and actually

ever imagined. Right. Um, and actually moms of friends of mine when I was growing up were awesome examples and you know those weren't extensive rich

conversations but you know I've got eyes and I got ears and you know I could observe oh that's a different way of relating or being you know I totally agree but there is something wonderful

about guys going off and being guy you know uh Peggy Pap was a great family therapist married to uh Arthur um I mean Peggy Penn, married to Arthur Penn, the

guy who did Bonnie and Clyde and uh she told a wonderful story about her husband. Every Sunday he would go out

husband. Every Sunday he would go out with the same guys in play golf. And he

would come home and Peggy would say, "What talk about you know the the lay of the green, what we're going to drink at the bar." And

one day Peggy said, she said to her husband, "Look, Arthur, I'm a gender expert. I go around the world talking

expert. I go around the world talking about, you know, next time you go off with your guys, I want you to come home and I want you to talk to me about

feelings, about depth, about, you know, something more than the goddamn lay of the grain for Christ's sake. He comes,

she comes home a week later.

You went, "Yeah, I play. What did you guys talk about?" Oh, honey. Uh, Bill

was incested by his nanny when he was four and Harry lost his dog when he was three and he never got over it. And

Steve thinks he's got a really small penis and Peggy looked at him and go, "You're full of right?" We played golf. [laughter]

golf. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean, the great story. Um, yeah,

>> Yeah. I mean, the great story. Um, yeah,

I think that there's a um I'm a big fan of the movie Stand by Me. Oh, yeah. You

know, sadly, you know, >> Reiner was murdered the other day, so just But that was brilliant movie. such

an it's actually an important movie um despite it being a real- time piece um because it's that age right before boys they're either hitting puberty or they haven't hit puberty and there's this

interesting thing that happens where they're sort of their self-concept is still in childhood like they're talking about superheroes and cartoons they have this argument about whether or not Mighty Mouse or Superman would win a a

fight and one of them goes that's ridiculous like Superman's a real person right you know it's awesome Um, and then one of them, the late River Phoenix, is just he's so clearly ahead of all of the

other kids because of the rough environment, but also he's just developmentally more ahead of the game.

So, it's an interesting thing about getting out and moving through space with people I think is is good. Whether

or not it's golf, which I consider a very slow movement, or it's hiking, or >> um, also the nice thing about walking and hiking is that it doesn't require any significant athleticism.

Um, so as long as you bring water and some food and you know and if you're camping, you can camp or you can sleep in your car. Like it's just it's just like our day hike. It's just so simple.

I will say um because I do want to talk about um substance use and abuse.

>> Um anytime I hear >> um I I always ask like are you smoking weed? Okay. I I'm not somebody who

weed? Okay. I I'm not somebody who judges anyone if they're into it, but um young guys who are doing a lot of high THC cannabis seems from my experience,

my data set, very highly correlated with a significant problems. Apathy being one of them and a bunch of other regulation issues, right? Same thing with drinking.

issues, right? Same thing with drinking.

Like if they're drinking too much, >> I'm like listening, go to a 12step meeting. You got you got to you can't be

meeting. You got you got to you can't be drinking smoking weed and not have a job cuz like it's just very clear how someone wants to put how that take plays

out. So that I mean there are other

out. So that I mean there are other things there. I feel like I I have a

things there. I feel like I I have a responsibility to say that there are other points of suggestion. You usually

it starts however with like what supplement should I take? Should I be taking creatine? I'm like you know how's

taking creatine? I'm like you know how's your life? Oh it's a like it's a mess.

your life? Oh it's a like it's a mess.

Well you're in a relationship. Yeah I

got a girlfriend. Is it great? Yeah

she's super sweet. Are you working? No,

she's working. She's at school. Okay.

And then and then you start getting the picture and you're like, "Okay, creatine ain't gonna fix this." Yeah. You know,

in fact, getting in shape can be empowering, but you're just spending all your time at the gym scrolling on social media taking pictures of your abs and then you don't have any friends. That's

a disaster waiting to happen. and a

place in the world, you know, our economy is not great and AI is going to come in and these kids are having a hard

time finding a career and a job and meaning uh in the world. And you do get a dichotomy a lot of times where you have a man, a young man who is

relationally skilled uh but not powerful, no place in the world. That

that goes back to what I was talking about. you can have feelings and be a

about. you can have feelings and be a big baby about it. It's both. You have

to you have to be relationally skilled and you have to be assertive and have meaning and have a spot in the world and

a career. And uh

a career. And uh I love to tell stories. Can I tell you a story? This is my quintessential

story? This is my quintessential >> what it means to be a man story. True

story. So I had the privilege of going to Mas Island in Tanzania where we were we had to drive 10 hours to this very remote village which friends of mine

were building a school with them. So

they knew them and loved them. And so I had a men's group with the elders of this uh tribe for four nights and we talked about everything, God, women,

death, whatever. And at one point I said

death, whatever. And at one point I said to them, so there's a big debate in my country about what makes a good Morirani. Morani

warrior man, one word, warrior man. That

that's what it is. What makes Some people in America believe that a good morani is strong, uh, tough, don't mess with them. Other

people believe that a good morani is sensitive and sweet and kind. What do

you guys think? What makes a good morani?

And uh it's absolutely true, Andrew.

This this little guy must have been 300 years old. It had about 4 foot2 sticks

years old. It had about 4 foot2 sticks his finger out and went from English to Swahili and Mai to Swahili to English.

And he sounded pissed and he said, "I have no interest in talking to you about what makes a good Mirani." Couldn't care less. But I will

Mirani." Couldn't care less. But I will talk to you about what makes a great Mirani. So now listen, when the moment

Mirani. So now listen, when the moment calls for fierceness, a good Morirani is a killer. And they

they are they have swords and shields and they're warriors. They'll kill you.

Don't cross them. When the moment calls for tenderness, a good Morani will lay down his sword and shield and be sweet like a baby. What makes a great Morirani

is knowing which moment is which.

That's what I want. I want adaptability, flexibility, and wholeness. Strong,

vulnerable related firm. All of our human qualities kicked

firm. All of our human qualities kicked out in the moment that calls for them with flexibility. That's a man.

with flexibility. That's a man.

It's clear that within romantic relationship and other um and other family type relationships that uh the

softness, the kindness, but also what you referred to before as being skilled.

Not hard, not soft. Skilled. That's what

you're looking for in in a point of friction.

>> That's right.

>> Think skill. Think be skilled. Don't

think be hard. Don't think be soft. Be

skilled.

>> Yeah. And it's in your interest to be skilled. you're not giving in.

skilled. you're not giving in.

>> You're being smart.

>> The warrior piece, um, you know, here in the United States and other Western cultures, um, you know,

it's what's happening right now, it it is kind of scary, right? People are very concerned, men are very concerned about how to make a live a living.

>> Yeah. probably to an extent that at least in my lifetime I've I've not never observed because like computers came along and you know there was the whole obnoxious like learn to code thing and

you know f and it was like those you know but very quickly people realize okay you don't have to be a computer programmer to still make a living factories have closed but you know there are other things but that was a rough

transition we forget right and then but now with AI there's this feeling that it's like a tidal wave of um work opport opportunity is going to be taken away

from men. So in the context of your

from men. So in the context of your story is work the warrior piece in the United States. Okay.

United States. Okay.

>> I would call it a place in the world. I

would call it uh purpose.

>> So what happens when there isn't work to do?

>> I think that this is a big crisis for young men, younger men, millennial, genuine, what I don't even have all the

alphabet. um they're nervous that there

alphabet. um they're nervous that there is no opening uh for them to step into the world and have a meaningful place.

>> Well, for a long time the discussion was about finding work that you really love as opposed to just doing something because you make a good living. Yes.

>> Now I think the conversation actually is switching to like what can I do to just make a living.

>> I need to put bread on the table. I'm

I'm floundering. And also um women are in the workforce.

>> You know uh uh men are feeling their position eroding uh in part because of changing economic circumstances but in part you know back

in the 40s and 50s I slayed dragons came home and my wife met me with a martini and slippers. Nowadays I slay dragons I

and slippers. Nowadays I slay dragons I come home and my wife comes home from slaying dragons too. Uh uh one of the nice things about young man is that they

understand that it's going to be a two career family and they're more egalitarian than we were.

I have to help with the it's not fair for me to not help with the dishes.

She's as tired as I am. And and her paycheck is as big as you know there was research there's a direct correlation between how much housework a man does and how big his wife's paycheck is. the

bigger her paycheck, the more housework he does. And but that's not, you know,

he does. And but that's not, you know, being whipped. That's like, yeah, she's

being whipped. That's like, yeah, she's tired, too. We both have to, we're a

tired, too. We both have to, we're a team. So, there is some of that with

team. So, there is some of that with with men. On the other hand, you know,

with men. On the other hand, you know, this whipped up uh kind of hysteria about the crisis with men, men, boys are doing poorly in school and boys aren't

doing this and boys, a lot of that is comparative.

Uh boys are doing worse than women. Boys

are uh not achieving the same grades as girls. And I haven't looked at this, but

girls. And I haven't looked at this, but I'm wondering if some of this hyped up, oh, what's going on with boys? boys

haven't boys aren't that much worse.

It's that the girls and women are doing so much better. And in comparison, it looks like we're standing still and being passed. That is the feeling. There

being passed. That is the feeling. There

is a feeling in all aspects of privilege, white privilege, male privilege. Look, these other people are

privilege. Look, these other people are getting led in and they're going to eat my lunch and I'm nervous about that.

You know, I um I observed in the 80s and 90s and 2000s, uh a lot of guys, mostly guys, become addicts.

And not all of them came from traumatic homes. Not of the whatever the big tea

homes. Not of the whatever the big tea type trauma, at least not that I'm aware of. Some did. Mostly it was um

of. Some did. Mostly it was um absent fathers tended to kind of predict addiction or >> That is true. or addict

>> death that is trauma.

>> It is trauma, right? I was just sort of big tea little like I'm not aware of any then they could exist. I don't know. Um

specific I want to be clear about this because it's endemic to our culture.

Absent dads, you know, is the norm for many people in this culture and uh absence can do more

damage than violent presidents >> can.

uh and we tend to not think about it it that way. But neglect can be as

that way. But neglect can be as wounding. You know, back to Bllye, he

wounding. You know, back to Bllye, he said this one, he's a beautiful poet. He

said, "Every time a young man walks down the corridor and says hello to an older, more successful man, and that man does not say hello back, that's a wound in

the soul of the young man." I love that.

And absences uh speak as woundingly as uh violent presences do. And

many men not being relational are absent and people suffer. The children suffer and

people suffer. The children suffer and the partners suffer.

And then uh I talk about the unholy triad of patriarchy. You've got absent or irresponsible dad. You've got unhappy but accommodating mom and then you have

a sweet, smart, sensitive little boy. And that

boy feels his mother's pain.

She doesn't have to do anything to quote imsh him. He feels it and he moves into

imsh him. He feels it and he moves into caretaking her. And then his template

caretaking her. And then his template for relationship is I'm a caretaker.

It's not mutual.

uh and then he has a very ambivalent relationship to being close to somebody because close means nobody cares about me. I'm taking care of them. That is

me. I'm taking care of them. That is

endemic in our culture. Very common. And

and I'm I appreciate the what is the the redirect to this. I I'll come back to what I was the addiction piece. But what

you're describing is is everywhere >> everywhere >> everywhere. This is often why the the I

>> everywhere. This is often why the the I get the text from the mom of a kid say my kid, you know, he's he's got these

issues, right? We talked about them. Um

issues, right? We talked about them. Um

it's the phenotype you're describing.

It's a scenario you're describing. Um

there was a message in the early 90s that I think was very toxic, frankly.

I'll take some heat for this because it's politically leaning, but like I I don't I'm be very clear in my politics.

I don't like political groups. I don't

like groups that relate to uh politics, frankly. I just don't like them. Um I'm

frankly. I just don't like them. Um I'm

a sometimes a double hater and uh but I I'm just there's certain things on, you know, through the middle in both sides.

Yes. Yes. No, no, definitely no.

Definitely no. Okay, that's that's me.

I'll just put it on the table.

In the '9s, there were two messages that came about during the Clinton administration. Um, one was very useful,

administration. Um, one was very useful, one was highly toxic in my opinion. The

first one that was very useful was Hillary Clinton took data from was talking about data from my colleague Carla Shatz at Stanford who talked about fire together, wire together. She said

that, not Donald. For the record, she said that, not Donald Heb.

>> Um, and it had to do with brain plasticity. And they they talked about

plasticity. And they they talked about this first six years. Okay. like Hillary

Clinton or hater, the first six years is a real thing. And it attuned parents to the idea that the first six years of life are not the only important part of life, but there's a lot of brain plasticity happening there. And she

talked to the right scientist, Carla, my colleague and friend, um, phenomenal neuroscientist, about the fact that playing your kid classical music isn't going to help. What they need is a

certain amount of nurturing and and stuff to really wire those circuits up.

and then certain windows close and you can go back and do the work. But those

first six years are absolutely critical.

It should have been the first 50 years, but six was good. That was a great message.

>> Mhm.

>> One that still I think carries forward today and we should acknowledge that.

the the other message and it was the Bill Clinton story was because he had a single mom and at least by Democrats he was highly revered was this idea and you

can find this online that as long as there's one person that cares about you that you're going to be just fine.

>> And I understand that it had benevolent motives. It was like look if you have no

motives. It was like look if you have no one clearly you're screwed. it's or

life's going to be much much harder. If

you have multiple people that care about you and are nurturing you as a young person, becoming a young adult, etc., even better. But the notion was that if

even better. But the notion was that if you just had one person, you're good.

And I think that seeded this idea that sure, sometimes divorce saves families, sometimes it destroys families. There's

all sorts of ideas, but that idea, I think, was highly toxic because it runs counter-current to everything we understand about what it

takes to be nurtured properly. Doesn't mean you need

nurtured properly. Doesn't mean you need two parents as you pointed out. You can

get nurturing from men or from women, etc. But this idea that you just need one person who cares about you, that's what you just described. It's the the mom who cares about the kid, the kid who

sees the mom's pain, the absent dad.

Sometimes it's the reverse. Usually it's

the scenario you described.

>> Yeah.

>> And I've just seen thousands of examples where that leads to very bad things.

There should have been a a an ellipse on that that said in the case where it's just one person or parent, there need to be other people to fill the roles that person can't fill.

>> Yes, of course. And

there's also a difference between I'm a single mom raising my son. and we'll

keep it to boys. Uh so I have a community of people around that boy to love him and it's not all me. Um that

doesn't necessarily mean I need a surrogate father to bring him to bring him and to teach me how to be a man.

Anybody in the This is good, but not just one person. Agreed.

The other thing I want to say is there's a difference between I'm being raised by a single parent and I'm being raised by two parents, one of whom doesn't pay any attention to me. There's a difference

between somebody who's really gone and someone who's physically there and emotionally gone.

>> And that is a wound. And unfortunately,

because so many men are so unreational, we're going to change that. Um, that's

what you get. And if dad is distant from me, dad's also distant from mom and mom is brokenhearted.

And traditionally, mom's brokenhearted and not doing much about it, just resenting it and suffering it.

Downloading a lot of that feeling to me, whether she means to or not, I just pick it up. And then I move into some skewed

it up. And then I move into some skewed relationship where I'm parenting her instead of being parented by her. She

doesn't have to do a thing.

She can be the world's greatest mom explicitly, but I'm feeling her distress and stepping in to that. And then I have a hard time with relationships as an

adult man. We call this being a love

adult man. We call this being a love avoidant. It's like my template for

avoidant. It's like my template for relationships is I'm caretaking you. You

don't really care about me. So, I'll be in the relationship, but I don't want to get swallowed up by you. So I'll be in the relationship, but I'll also be very distant. In that way, the distance gets

distant. In that way, the distance gets replicated generation by generation by generation.

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trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman

wakingup.com/huberman to access a free 30-day trial. I think I know the answer to the question I'm about to ask, but

I'll ask it anyway. In your experience, are women just better at being relational than men?

>> They're better.

They ain't no angels. Women have to learn a few things, too. Um, they have to learn to be subjective.

Um, it's really tempting because I do know more about relationships than my guy to start feeling like I'm his coach.

I'm going to teach him what he needs to do. That's an arrogant position. That's

do. That's an arrogant position. That's

a grandiose position. Stay humble. I can

teach you what I need. I'm not your relational coach. That's a trap. Um,

relational coach. That's a trap. Um,

women have to learn how to speak relationally also. So, story, I love to

relationally also. So, story, I love to tell stories. This true story and this

tell stories. This true story and this is the example I give about stepping out of our usual cultural framework and learning how to think relationally. How

many of people listening can relate to this one? She to him, you're a reckless

this one? She to him, you're a reckless driver. Him to her, you're overly

driver. Him to her, you're overly nervous. Uh uh how many of us have sat

nervous. Uh uh how many of us have sat through that one and they get into what I call an objectivity battle? You

marshall your evidence. You argue your case. Well, you do this, you do that,

case. Well, you do this, you do that, you're reckless. Well, you're overly

you're reckless. Well, you're overly nervous about this. Harry thinks you're nervous, too. And it's what I call an

nervous, too. And it's what I call an objectivity battle. It can go on

objectivity battle. It can go on literally for decades. This is

absolutely true. Andrew, one session with me, her to him. Honey, I know you love me. Let's start with that. Hold the

love me. Let's start with that. Hold the

phone there. Change the energy.

Remember the biosphere. Remember that

we're a team. I know you love me.

When you drive on your own, I mean, I worry about you, but it's your life. Do

what you do. When I'm in the car with you and you're tailgating and speeding and changing lanes, I don't know. Maybe

I'm nervous. Maybe she takes the whole objectivity battle off the table. Maybe

I am overly. I don't know. But

nevertheless, when I'm sitting next to you and you be driving, I get crazy. I'm I'm scared.

You love me. You don't really want me to be scared out of my mind every time I'm sitting next to you when we're driving.

As a favor to me when I'm in the car, could you please slow down and drive more conservatively so I don't have to be so nervous? True story, Andrew. Him

to her. Um, uh, sure, honey. And he did.

And what might have been a fight that lasted 40 years was done in 15 minutes.

Why? Not objective. You're a reckless driver. Subjective. I get nervous. The

driver. Subjective. I get nervous. The

beauty about speaking subjectively is nobody can argue with you. Well, you

shouldn't get nerv. I know, but I do.

>> It's nice. It also started with, "I know you love me.

>> I know you love me."

>> What a nice thing to hear right before a request.

>> I know you love me.

>> Assuming it's true. Well, of course. And

and also a request, not a complaint.

>> Mhm.

>> I know you love me. This is what's happening to me. We're a team. As a

favor to me, would you please? Humble,

subjective negotiating.

Not I'm God's gift. I know how to drive.

You're an idiot. Take all that energy away. And then, right, I do love you.

away. And then, right, I do love you.

Right. You do get nervous. You're a fool for getting nervous, but you get nervous. you're my wife. Sure, I'll do

nervous. you're my wife. Sure, I'll do this for you. And I use this as an example of learning to speak relationally.

It's not about who's right and who I say the relational answer to who's right and who's wrong is who cares. How are we as a team going to make this work? And

that's a whole new world. Are women

better at this than men? Not a lot.

They're better at a lot of other things than men. But I have to teach women how

than men. But I have to teach women how to be more relational, too. Uh women are more relational than men, but uh they

need to learn a few skills as well.

>> Let's talk about addiction um or compulsion. I mean, we could have a two-hour discussion about where the line is, but

>> I have a one sentence >> uh thing to say about addiction.

What we self-medicate when we self-medicate is the pain of disconnection.

And the cure for addiction is intimacy.

Uh I'm a big 12step fan. I know you are too. One of my great mentors was PM

too. One of my great mentors was PM Melody, a great great light in 12step.

>> Wrote the book about codependency.

>> Yeah. And I I'm saturated with 12step and 12step wisdom. There are things you can do to get sober.

Intimacy will keep you sober.

And I believe that what the pain, yes, [snorts] trauma, but trauma is disconnection, too. All trauma is is the

disconnection, too. All trauma is is the lack of relationality in, you know, whenever it happened. What we find intolerable is how lonely we are. and we

turn to what I call a misery stabilizer to make our loneliness tolerable to ourselves but it just makes it I said in my first book I don't want to talk about

it uh taking a substance for loneliness is like drinking salt water for thirst it makes you worse than you started but that's what we do so when I treat

addictions they're levels level A the addiction itself I'm a big fan of 12 that gets

sober. Level B, let's look at the

sober. Level B, let's look at the immaturities of your personality that you're have to sort out. Level C, let's look at the early trauma that may be at

the root of this. Let's deal with all three of those. And it's all wrapped in the circle of learning how to be connected and relational.

That's the ouch that you're trying to get out of. And let's restore that. And

that's all of that work. Trauma work,

you have to make a connection with that little boy or girl that was so hurt.

Personality work, you have to learn how to be mature. Uh it work on your grandiosity or self-medication.

Do that per se. And then as you do all of those layers, the king of recovery is learning how to be connected to yourself

first and foremost uh and to the people around you. That's the cure for

around you. That's the cure for addiction.

>> The 12step piece is interesting as it relates to the relational piece too because um for people who have never been to a meeting, you know, maybe just uh put a little bit of contour on it.

>> Cross that meetings are fellowship. Yes,

it's fellowship and it's it's also a place where you at a very basic level you learn to listen and and to be quiet and um I'll just mention this because I think a lot of people hear 12step they

have different ideas about it but if anyone's ever curious about it they uh there's a it's a very welcoming community even non-addicts can go to what are called open AA meetings right

>> and I even though there are lots of different um divisions of 12step that AA has been around the longest and and those meetings tend to have the most structure and agreed.

>> And so if you ever want to see what 12step is about, it's perfectly welcome.

It's encouraged in fact to go to you can look it up online. They're in person or online and you can go to a has to be an open 12step meeting. Check to see if it's men only or women only or mixed.

And you can go and um the format in very briefly is uh someone you know will read something out and then people will go around the room and typically so people will say their name and they'll say

they're an alcoholic or an addict of because sometimes it's mixed addiction and if people are there just to observe they'll just say I'm it's always first names only will say I'm so and so and I'm just I'm just here to learn and it goes right past you. So if you think

that like the microscope's going to be on you, you know, and then typically um typically somebody who's had a lot of time sober will speak for anywhere from

5 to 15 minutes, sometimes a little longer, and then there'll be a kind of roundroin where people can or cannot they can elect to share for 1 to 3 minutes and then there's some discussion

about the traditions. And it's the reason um I think it's well so powerful for a number of reasons. Helps so many people get sober. It costs nothing. It's

all over the world every day and all night and, you know, online and in person. But I think that at a minimum,

person. But I think that at a minimum, it teaches you to just listen.

Uh, if you want to share, you can share.

And what it also teaches you, and this is kind of a more subtle layer, but it's a really important layer. Uh, someone said to me just yesterday, even if you don't

think that you need to go to a meeting, if you've had some time sober and you go and you share, or even if you're struggling, you go, >> almost certainly there's someone there that's benefiting from what you're

saying.

>> You may never know it, but that's part of the fellowship service piece is it's >> it's sometimes people come up and say, "Hey, what you said really resonated."

Always what other people share. there's

a there's a a a grain or more of of relational stuff there. So, it's a very interesting form of relating. It's not

unlike the way Quakers get together.

We'll just sit >> and then sometimes someone will speak.

It's different. But anyway, I I think that we want to pull back the veil a little bit on what happens at these meetings. And you'll also be very

meetings. And you'll also be very surprised. Sometimes people are really

surprised. Sometimes people are really dejected and in a real life crisis. More

often than not, you walk in, you're like, "Wow, these these people are are like >> very empowered."

>> Yeah.

>> Because they're there and they've been going. These It's not like this dungeon

going. These It's not like this dungeon of a place. There's a cheerfulness to it. Um often, not always, but there's a

it. Um often, not always, but there's a cheerfulness to it. And so anyway, I encourage anyone that's curious about it, if they think they're an addict, but also if they also just want to become

more relational, uh these open AA meetings are a real um gift. Again, zero

cost. They pass the hat, but nobody nobody cares if you donate or not.

>> And you don't have to talk and just go on and be.

>> You know, my my dear Pia, we've been talking about relationship. Pia said

intimacy uh which is healing and spiritual is the conjunction of truth and love, the meeting of truth and love. And she

said 12step meetings were her model for that. And I'll tell you two stories. Uh

that. And I'll tell you two stories. Uh

my friend Allan used to go to Alanon. I

said, 'Wh do you go to Alanon? He said,

"Well, I had a great-grandfather, but you got Noah." He said, "You know what?

Every other week, Friday night, I go to an Alan meeting." And people will say things that are absolutely horrible.

And not one person will lift a finger to make it better. We'll just be with each other.

>> And I find that spiritually refreshing.

And I remember being at a men's group that uh I you know after a conference I created a little a 12step men's group and I was sitting next to an older guy

and he looked at us. I'll remember this forever and he said I've never been intimate with anybody in my life and I

expect I'll die alone.

and not one of us either pulled away from him or tried to make it better for him. We were just with him.

him. We were just with him.

That is intimate.

And uh 12step has a lot of wisdom that goes beyond our general culture. It's

not perfect, but it's a step up from the mores of our culture.

>> Yeah, it's definitely not perfect. There

are meetings that people don't resonate with and they're occasionally you'll go to a meeting and you can tell the storytelling can get a little bit people getting a little high on other people's

stories about getting high and but a good meeting which is 98% of meetings um the person leaning to meet will will keep things in check and and gosh

there's there's so much wisdom there and I think especially in this time where people are struggling more than ever to make connection and online is clearly clearly a very

different form of connection or even leads to disconnection. Um, the

in-person meetings have a real value to them. And of course, I also believe that

them. And of course, I also believe that many many people are dealing with addiction now and they don't realize it.

The the numbing out or the rage baiting that you can experience watching, you know, what is essentially 300 little short movies in the course of 20, 30

minutes, you know, when you could just think about like what's actually going on internally around you. I mean,

>> well, or look at porn. I mean,

>> you know, our young men, I mean, my wife Belinda is a certified sex addiction therapist, and uh a a boy by the time

he's 12 or 13 has seen thousands of vaginas, has seen thousands of sex scenes. That's average for America right

scenes. That's average for America right now.

>> That's so crazy. Yeah. When I was growing up, it was so different. So

different. Uh so one of the things I say is that we talked about this earlier. Um

it is an image between gratification and relational joy. And a lot of us

relational joy. And a lot of us substitute intensity for intimacy.

>> And boy the internet. That's what they sell. That's the algorithm. And we

sell. That's the algorithm. And we

intensity itself becomes like a drug.

uh and it makes us feel alive and it's gratifying and it pulls us out of whatever depression we're feeling, but it's very short-lived. There's an

example of intensity that comes to mind whenever we're talking about boys and men and addiction, but also just um languishing and just the the the idea

that you know people can course correct, but it's hard when you you know people have been in a current of numbing out or or going for

intensity and um here I am drinking yerba mate. I love caffeine, you know,

yerba mate. I love caffeine, you know, but um you know, I see it at every level because of I'm about to um slam on energy drinks for a second, >> you know. you know, but just the idea

that you're trying to pack more and more intensity into less and less space, you know, >> you know, that was one of the things I was nervous about coming on this podcast with you >> that we're all slamming energy drinks and

>> No, no, not that, but this idea of optimizing every experience and you know having >> Yeah, that's a misconception unfortunately about um this podcast. I

think maybe we used the word optimize without early on without explaining that optimization is really about making the best of each day.

>> So, but that includes sit still.

Totally. I started today with 10 minutes of meditation. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I

of meditation. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I I unfortunately um this podcast for some people they think about supplements, optimization,

working out, and morning sunlight.

Morning sunlight thing is pretty important, especially on overcast days.

But um for everyone, we are circadian creatures. I'll go for that.

creatures. I'll go for that.

>> You want to get mentally ill, you can help yourself be mildly or um severely mentally depressed or ill. You can

damage your relationships by being in dim or dark environments in the early hours of the day. This is just there's so much data, right? Bright days, dark

nights. That's the idea. But that's the

nights. That's the idea. But that's the healthy uh approach. But um no this podcast was always about psychology and biology and understanding some mechanism

and practical tools and um the the optimization thing is I I think I do think taking a healthy stock of oneself and saying you know some people need to

move more some people need to move less and read more frankly you know um I I know some really fit people that are getting dumb they'll tell you everything about sets and reps but I'm like listen

you gota four PhDs. These aren't the the exercise physiologists I'm referring to, but you got four PhDs in in kettle bells and nutrition and that you've given yourself through YouTube. Like, read a

hard book, read a fiction book, read a kids book for God's sake, you know, like you got to balance yourself out. So, I I do I do believe in that. But I think when it comes to like the relational

piece the the reason I keep coming back to 12step is I think it's just a beautiful template for how to listen.

>> How to listen and be, you know, a friend of mine brought a book I I didn't read the book, but the title's just hilarious. The the title of the book is

hilarious. The the title of the book is death, the end of self-improvement. And

it's like >> fair.

>> You know what?

>> Who knows what happens next? sit down,

have a cup of tea, and look at the trees. Uh, as a family therapist,

trees. Uh, as a family therapist, uh, I love hanging out. Families operate

in the inter interstices. You know, I hate quality time. I hate it. It's a

yepy invention. I can work 80 hours, but then I'll sit at a table with my kid and really stare at them and really give them attention. No, families operate.

them attention. No, families operate.

You want you want your kid to talk to you? They're in the back seat while

you? They're in the back seat while you're driving in the hockey practice.

Then they'll open up and talk to you.

You're cooking together and all of a sudden they start burbling. You don't

focus the laser beam of your attention on them. They'll clam up. One of the

on them. They'll clam up. One of the things that families can teach us about relationality, relational joy, is hanging out, being it. It doesn't have to be so focused.

be be a little less perfect and be a little more human and uh just let yourself be nurtured in different modes than the ones we're used to.

>> I love that. I um uh my parents split when I was 14 and we went from a family that was pretty cohesive. I mean, my dad worked a lot and sure it had issues, but

we were very cohesive to just very different picture. My sister was off at

different picture. My sister was off at school, my dad was elsewhere, my it was just me and my mom. And those were really really difficult years. Like very

very difficult for reasons that are important to get into in detail now. But

um but I I was thinking the other day I have very very fond memories of kind of evenings where may or may not have been doing my homework. Probably should have been. But

homework. Probably should have been. But

I would watch TV or do homework in the living room while while my mom would cook. Sometimes she was on the phone

cook. Sometimes she was on the phone with a friend um and there was music on. Occasionally

we'd watch we'd watch the Wonder Years and then there was like a dating show that she liked to watch but then she'd get really upset if the couples didn't like each other and so and it and like those are some of the best memories that's right

>> I have my mom and it wasn't the trips that we took or any any of that stuff >> um and this graduate adviser that I had her name was Barbara Chapman. a

phenomenal scientist like a hard like a real pure scientist taught me so much about how to really think about doing really solid science brilliant woman

trained at all the top places didn't give a about the accutrants that go with she just loved doing experiments in any case she had two daughters while I was in the lab and her husband's a scientist too so I got to know their

family very well and sadly she passed away in 2014 cancer and it was super devastating to all of us so a lot of memorial memorials for her. But I I went to the memorial at the House of Flowers in San Francisco, which is also where

she and her husband been married and her two daughters were there. And um it was heavy. Like all the colleagues, all the

heavy. Like all the colleagues, all the friends, she was she was an amazing person. I'm like crying buckets. I'm a

person. I'm like crying buckets. I'm a

mess. I always have to speak at her memorials. It's like the eighth

memorials. It's like the eighth memorial. I'm like, I'm not going to

memorial. I'm like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not. Of course, I get up there,

cry. I'm not. Of course, I get up there, I just >> in front of all my colleagues, you know, all of that. I mean, it actually taught me a few things about how to deal with

people in profession, you know. Um

because you can't walk away from that and be like you're you're just like snot out your no. Anyway, her daughters get up and um everyone's bracing themselves like this is going to be hard,

>> devastating. Yeah.

>> devastating. Yeah.

>> They get up there and basically what I recall and I think is accurate is they were like we love our mom, we miss our mom, all that stuff. Everyone's melting

and they just go, "But the thing we remember best and that we loved about her the most was all the unstructured time.

>> She would just hang out with us."

>> Yeah.

>> And I was like, >> I don't want to break down now, but it was because it would be out tears of joy, but it was just so incredible.

>> I was like, that's so cool. Like of all the things they did, the the World Series, the trips they took to France, they did that. the the scientific meetings that the girls came to. It's

like the unstructured time and I was just like that is so cool and I'm actually in touch with them now. One

actually is in graduate school doing neuroscience, which is warming, but could have done anything. And it's so wild because of all that. Their mom's

been gone probably long, almost as long as they had her, you know, and it's like the unstructured time. That was it.

That's the thing they held on to more than anything.

>> That's connection. I uh I'll tell you a story. So, um, I was dealing with a rock

story. So, um, I was dealing with a rock star, uh, not Bruce Springsteen who wrote the intro to my everybody's album.

I'm always talking about him. It wasn't

him. It was a different, but anyway, I dealing with a rockstar. And this is how he described himself. So, when I'm on stage in front of 60,000 people, I'm

alive. When I come home and I'm with my

alive. When I come home and I'm with my wife and four kids, I'm like a computer on sleep mode. I'm just half shut down

and depressed.

He used to asleep 10 hours a day.

Uh, okay. So, I talked to him about gratification and relational joy, about hanging out, about and I said, "Look, your kids keep daddy, daddy, daddy." You

go, "No, no, no, no, no. I want you to start saying yes, yes, yes." And, you know, dad, let's go for a walk. Oh,

okay. Get yourself up out of the chair and go beat. And he did. And about six months into this absolutely true story, he comes to me, big smile on his face.

He says, "I got it." I said, "Okay, tell me. There's a story." He goes, "I this

me. There's a story." He goes, "I this Sunday I had the best day of my life." I

said, "Go on." He said, "My wife, me, and my four kids, we didn't get out of our PJs all day. We sat around and

played Monopoly from 7 in the morning till 7 at night. I had no idea where the time went. I had no idea what we were

time went. I had no idea what we were doing. And I It was the best day of my

doing. And I It was the best day of my goddamn life. And I said, "Welcome to

goddamn life. And I said, "Welcome to relational joy."

relational joy." That's what I want. And that's what we're born for. You know, I deal with

really tough couples, really tough guys.

The ace in my pocket is relational connection is what we're born for.

And people move very quickly in the therapy I do. Not just me, but all the therapists we've trained. And the reason is that our whole art as RLT therapists

is moving somebody out of disconnection into the jetream of connection and relational joy. And once somebody is in

relational joy. And once somebody is in that jetream, oh man, it's just so much better than the disconnection that the jetream takes

them and they move very quickly and transformationally because this is what makes us happy. This is what fulfills us.

>> Yeah. It's almost like the best stuff is the stuff that you would never post on social media because it's uh so boring for the internet and so awesome in real life.

>> Yeah. Well said. That's what I want.

>> I think I'm starting to catch your vibe.

[laughter] >> You're You're a pretty relational dude, I got to tell you.

>> For better or worse. Um, you know, well, I've have work to do. I'm fortunate now to be in the um in the landscape of what I what I think is uh like a real

education and in um peace and simplicity despite my professional life being less about peace and simplicity more more about well it's all it's all good I love

it I love my job love love my job but um but in in the rest of my life is it's really like peace and simplicity I had a hike with a friend recently um was

awesome just awesome like it was just to we got together for a hike, talked about some things, hung out. That was great.

I've taken a lot of hikes with a lot of friends and that one was definitely in the a winner for whatever reason. Just

the relational piece. And then also now I think um she may be getting bored. I

don't know. I I should probably ask her, but like my girlfriend and I these days like we just hang out and listen to music.

>> Yeah.

>> That's like a lot of our time is hanging out and listening to music. She's got

great musical taste. I like music and I'm trying to learn more about other music and I I know pretty quickly if I like something or not and she's got like a treasure trove of music. But even when

we don't like something like you so we just hang out and listen to music like most I'm realizing we spent a lot of time just hanging out listening to music but it's uh it's a totally different

landscape because the the intensity is there in certain aspects certainly but um but the peace piece is like this

whole other landscape that I'm less familiar with and and I should say I take the blame for that. I've been a bit of an intensity junkie in my life for sure. Adrenaline and I are like close

sure. Adrenaline and I are like close buddies. We hang out. We like each

buddies. We hang out. We like each other. We get high off each other. Um

other. We get high off each other. Um

but nowadays that doesn't really appeal.

>> No, intimacy is better. Gratification is

fine, but intimacy is better. It's a

deeper satisfaction.

>> You know, one of the things I say is relational I talk about relational recovery. Not addictions can be part of

recovery. Not addictions can be part of it, but recovering the state of relationality we're born for. That's

what I'm looking for.

>> And one of the things I say is uh operating with maturity, skill, health, integrity, learning how to do this well, your life is simple. Being up, that's

is simple. Being up, that's complicated.

>> Totally.

>> Fighting for an a day and a half, that's complicated.

>> Totally.

>> When your wife comes at you and says, "I'm really mad." You go, "I'm sorry, honey. what can I do to help you? And

honey. what can I do to help you? And

she's chilled out in 10 minutes. That's

simple. So, relationality is actually simple. Not being relational is full of

simple. Not being relational is full of complications.

This is easy. The scientist in me has to run the experiment here. So, a lot of the examples you've given, I acknowledge

probably they certainly apply. you're

the clinician, you would know and you're, you know, you have your own life experience. We've got this model out on

experience. We've got this model out on the table of like the guy who doesn't really know how to listen as well as he could. Um, still needs to learn to ask

could. Um, still needs to learn to ask for help and ask what do you need right now in this moment to take breaks when things get ratcheted up. She's got

things that she needs and wants from him. He's like kind of this like, you

him. He's like kind of this like, you know, emotionally, you know, semi-mbbreionic, semi adult thing. Let's

turn the table.

Not because we have to, but because like once again, it's rarely just one person.

Is there ever a time when like a a guy has a complaint that's valid?

>> Oh my god.

>> Because I just think it's important for us to do this. So we have a male and female audience, but I just think part of the male crisis is that it seems like the seesaw is

always tilted the same way. And that

message, while probably valid in a lot of circumstances, probably more than half if I'm honest, it's I think sometimes men have things that requests and things that they want and have valid

complaints, maybe invalid complaints.

Let's talk about how to voice um concern request. dare I say criticism in a way

request. dare I say criticism in a way that's healthy and that serves both people. It serves relationally.

people. It serves relationally.

>> Yeah. Um I'm not a big fan of criticism.

Um if you go online and you do my course, we give you a format for criticism. It's called the feedback

criticism. It's called the feedback wheel.

>> Constructive criticism.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But even so, I one of the skills I teach people is we're uh evolutionary wire, you know, the negative bias of the brain. We we notice

what's wrong. That's survival. Hey, that

what's wrong. That's survival. Hey, that

leaf shouldn't be turning. Well, there's

a saber-tooth tiger on the other side.

We notice what's wrong and that's part of our evolution.

That's what comes to us first. So,

complaint comes to us first. But one of the disciplines I teach people, literally sit down, write down the complaint. Okay, now flip it over. Flip

complaint. Okay, now flip it over. Flip

the page over. Inside of every complaint is a request.

>> Think about that. Every complaint has an implicit request in it unless you're absolutely have to. Nine

out of 10en times skip the complaint and just go for the request.

And particularly women to men, men are criticism phobic because we base our self-esteem on our performance. So don't

tell your guy what he's doing wrong.

Tell him what he could be doing a little better. Hey, you're doing a great job.

better. Hey, you're doing a great job.

This would work better. Um, in our culture, we try and get more of what we want from each other by criticizing each other.

There's a pl if you have to, I'll teach you how to do it. Um, but better skip the criticism and go right for what you want. Empower your partner to give you

want. Empower your partner to give you what you want. Don't beat them down by sharing your feelings about how that's therapy. Therapy has been the worst on

therapy. Therapy has been the worst on this. Sharing your misery at what your

this. Sharing your misery at what your partner's done wrong is not going to motivate them to do it better for you.

Help them do it better. We're a team.

This is what I want from you. Honey,

what could I give you to help you give it to me? Who sounds like that? We have

to learn how to sound like that. So,

criticism. I learned criticism from Janet Hurley, PM Melody's uh 12step sponsor. It's called the feedback reel.

sponsor. It's called the feedback reel.

I I'll do it real brief, but you can go online. Four parts. This is what

online. Four parts. This is what happened as I recollect. It is still subjective. This is the story I told

subjective. This is the story I told myself about it. This is what I felt.

And your all important part, this is what would make me feel better. So, uh,

Belinda to Terry, you said you're going to be home at 7. You didn't call or text. You showed up at 7:45. The kids

text. You showed up at 7:45. The kids

and I were waiting for you. Done. The

story I told myself was you can be selfish and see as long as you own it. This is

the story. You can say the nasty things you're thinking. You got caught up. You

you're thinking. You got caught up. You

forgot about us. Your work was more important and you blew it. What I feel about it. Um this is a big tip for your

about it. Um this is a big tip for your listeners.

Uh take the feeling that comes easiest to you and put that last. Reach for the feelings that are less common. So if

you're used to big, you know, I'm pissed off, go for the vulnerability. I was

hurt. If you're used to being hurt, go for your strength. That was really not a good way. So whatever you're used to,

good way. So whatever you're used to, flip it.

>> And then what we never add, this would help me feel better. This would be repair. So you're leading your partner

repair. So you're leading your partner into repair. Now, here's a funny story.

into repair. Now, here's a funny story.

So Janet said you get four sentences, one sentence for each part.

We have no attention span for being criticized. So four sentences is enough.

criticized. So four sentences is enough.

I said to Janet, "Hey, look, you're you're you're a a West Coast Christian. I'm an East Coast Jew. I've

Christian. I'm an East Coast Jew. I've

never said anything in four sentences. I

need more. Okay, I'll give you cultural dispensation. You can have eight

dispensation. You can have eight sentences." And ever that was 40 years

sentences." And ever that was 40 years ago. And now I tell all my clients to

ago. And now I tell all my clients to get eight sentences, two sentences each.

This is what happened. This is what I told myself. This is what I felt. And

told myself. This is what I felt. And

this would help if you be willing.

That's how you complain. But for every complaint, I want 99 requests instead.

Love it. Um, I don't have any, for the record, I don't have any specific critiques that I want to wage right now.

Is that a problem?

>> [laughter] >> Is that a problem? I I don't have any critiques. I'm only in gratitude these

critiques. I'm only in gratitude these days. It's really weird. It's really

days. It's really weird. It's really

wild. Like something happened right around my 50th birthday. There were a bunch of things that led into it, but like I I just am uh I mean I I just feel constantly grateful. I don't know what

constantly grateful. I don't know what happened, so I'm not going to worry about it. Um but yeah, some something

about it. Um but yeah, some something hit and I I like to think it has to do something with age. I do too.

>> You know, it's like something's there. A

buddy of mine who's also a professor at Stanford, he once told me, he goes, "50 is really different." How different can it be? He's like, "You'll see." I was

it be? He's like, "You'll see." I was like, "Is it like pain in the body?"

He's like, "No, he takes really good care of himself. He's he's not into lifting and running. He's into some other stuff." Kind of rock climbing yoga

other stuff." Kind of rock climbing yoga dude. Um, amazing scientist, too. What?

dude. Um, amazing scientist, too. What?

He goes, "It's it's um [clears throat] 50 is different. you'll just he goes, "Your brain is different at 50." And I kind of and I was like, maybe it was because I was anticipating it. Uh but

yeah, 50 hit and I'm like, >> well, I'm still here. I I'm I live longer than a lot of my heroes >> and I wasn't impressed by the 27 club. I

mean, impressive artist, but like the people a lot of people I knew and looked up to and who mentored me dead. Um I'm

like, this is awesome. I'm on the second half and I just so I I I wake up that way. It's it's wild. Well, you don't

way. It's it's wild. Well, you don't split the small stuff.

>> There's some wisdom in being an elder and like you had your fight with your girlfriends 353 time. You know, uh you asked about me and Belinda. I'll tell

you, Belinda's a fighter and I'm a fighter. We both grew up in very violent

fighter. We both grew up in very violent families and our adopted children are fighters. you. me.

fighters. you. me.

I'm standing up for myself. I'm going to bop you right in the nose. And I'm a New Yorker, too. So, you know, don't mess

Yorker, too. So, you know, don't mess with me. That's my adaptive trial.

with me. That's my adaptive trial.

That's my instinct. And 30 years ago, we would fight for weeks, blind and I. I

mean, ra yelling, screaming, rage, go to bed at 3:00 in the morning, wake up at 7, start all, tell other people how to live their lives all day, and then come

back and fight again. This is true. 99%

The 1% we look ugly just like everybody else. But 99, we start to fight. We take

else. But 99, we start to fight. We take

a break. We both know what that's about.

15 20 minutes and and it's not one or the other. It's kind of even. One of us

the other. It's kind of even. One of us will go to the other. It sounds

something like this. Andrew,

uh, I don't want to fight. Do you really want to fight? I mean, we could, but I don't really want to, honey. What do you need? And Balloon will say to me, well,

need? And Balloon will say to me, well, you really were an about dot dot dot. And I'll go, yeah, I was. You're

dot. And I'll go, yeah, I was. You're

right. Uh, I'm sorry. I I'll work on that. I go, "What do you need?" I go,

that. I go, "What do you need?" I go, "Well, you could really apologize about one, two, three." And he'll go, "I'll apologize about one." 20 years ago. What

about two and three now? Good. One.

Fine. We'll take it. Good. Good. Great.

What's on TV? Let's cuddle up on the couch and have an evening. And what I'm really thinking in that moment is this.

And this is what I teach people. How do

I want to spend my evening? How do I want to spend my time? Is it really worth it to me to prove my point and nail her into the ground? Or can we make

peace efficiently and skillfully and move the hell on?

It we behave with skill because it's in our interest to do so. I'm not making peace with Belinda for her. I'm making

peace with Belinda for me.

I love love love this um word this language around being skilled in uh relating uh especially when things potentially

get tense. It encapsulates

get tense. It encapsulates all the things around um asking for help, asking what one needs. That's I I that's

so powerful. I've said it like four

so powerful. I've said it like four times so forgive me but I think it's people need to hear it again. you know,

like just asking what do you need? I

mean, if we could somehow program ourselves to turn the We all know that feeling when our lyic systems activated and like, you know, you start feeling

your body, whatever activation state you get into, that's the lyic system. We all

know it uh when it happens and just if that could just translate to the words like what do you need? And as you pointed out, that's best for both people.

>> Let's prepare.

All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. I

got this from Ed Trronic, infant observational researcher. Ed and Barry

observational researcher. Ed and Barry Brezelden were the first of a generation to stop thinking about mothers and infants reconstructed from adults and

actually stuck cameras in front of mothers and infants and then fathers and looked at what happened. And I borrowed from Ed that all relationships are an

endless rhythm of closeness, disruption, and a return. And in our culture, we don't learn the skills of moving from

disillusionment distance disruption back into repair and return. And what

makes life even more dicey is when we're in that disrupted state, we lose our prefrontal quarter wise adult and move into the adaptive child. So the first

skill is getting back in your right mind. And then okay honey, what do you

mind. And then okay honey, what do you need? Let's fix this together.

need? Let's fix this together.

What's the work that [clears throat] men

um boys men you know can do to understand um and work on their self-esteem

dare I say in a vacuum. I know it's all relational. you have to do it. But there

relational. you have to do it. But there

are people whose time is spent, you know, taking care of their job, their school, scrolling, spending some time, doing it like the there's I I see an

opportunity in the work that you do for and the fact that you're here uh for young guys to start earlier.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> You know, I mean, I got I got lucky with someone taught me how to work out properly a long time ago. He was the guy everyone said was an idiot about how to work out. Turns out it worked and you

work out. Turns out it worked and you didn't have to do it spend your whole life in a gym. I got lucky by having great mentors. I got lucky. I also fired

great mentors. I got lucky. I also fired some mentors and got new ones. So I I played an active role. But

you're incredibly skilled in this domain. It's your profession. Um and

domain. It's your profession. Um and

there are guys in their teens, 20s, 30s, all the way up to, you know, 80s, 90s surely that can learn. But like there's a special opportunity in in starting to

cultivate these skills in one's teens and 20s and 30s. Um

and perhaps even having them when one shows up to relationship in in much better form than certainly I had [laughter] um you know for sure. So what does that

work look like? Like is it journaling?

Is it is it like how does it work?

>> I have two pieces of advice. And you

have sons I should point out. like you

you have some experience teaching people how to do this.

>> We've taught them this. My doc, the son, I was driving to school and he's giving me and I Thomas stop. He gives me and I look at him and I go, "Do you think this is appropriate for our

relationship?" And he falls on the floor

relationship?" And he falls on the floor and he says, "Dad, there are dads driving their sons to school all over America. They're talking about the game.

America. They're talking about the game.

They're talking about friends. How many

dads are saying to their son, "Do you think this is appropriate for our relationship?" Anyway, he does a whole

relationship?" Anyway, he does a whole routine about being the son of Tus. But

but they about it, but they they we taught them. and my Alexander my high achieving doctor you know researcher to

this day uh he'll call and go I really blew that presentation and felt I know I'm enough and I matter even though I blew the presentation but I just want you to know we can teach our kids

healthier moray it's part of our job as parents we can ra I have a a a little course online raising relational boys and girls and we can insist on more

relationality We can um create like a pick in basketball. We can create a relationally

basketball. We can create a relationally cherishing subculture around our children, friends, family, teach them.

Uh go into school and and do an anti-bullying campaign. Um we can we can

anti-bullying campaign. Um we can we can consciously download this to our kids and be explicit about it. In terms of

the young person themselves, I have two pieces of advice.

One, find older people who are good at this and let them be your mentor. Go to them

and be explicit and let them teach you, but find people who are happy. Teach our

kids how to be relational. Stand up for it and create a culture around them that supports that. because the playground

supports that. because the playground won't, the school won't, your colleagues won't. So create a little counterculture

won't. So create a little counterculture of relationality and surround your family with them. For the young person,

find mentors who are happy and let them teach you about how to be happy. And the other thing I want to teach which is true for

all of us and uh I I I would not be able to forgive myself if I didn't say this one thing in our podcast. We have a lot of people listening.

This is what I want to say.

If you get one thing from our conversation today and you only get this, this one thing will be enough to change your life. I mean it. Here's what

it is.

There is no redeeming value in harshness. Let me say it again. There is

harshness. Let me say it again. There is

nothing that harshness does that loving firmness doesn't do better. Be firm but with love, not harshness. And that's you

treating others. That's the way you

treating others. That's the way you allow others to treat you. And very much that's the way you treat you.

I am on an anti-harsness campaign and what I say to friends, family, students, uh, and it's true. At 75,

I have a deal with the universe. If it

isn't kind, I'm not interested. And that

adapted child that lives inside me can be very harsh to my own imperfection.

And I will say to that or to Belinda or to a colleague, you may have something to say to me [snorts] and it may be in my interest to learn and listen to you,

but you have to say it like you're on my side.

If you can't say it like you're on my side, I'm not going to listen. So,

a hallmark of relationality is that it's loving and not harsh. Let

that be your bellweather.

I love that.

Especially the part about the voice inside of us because I think we internalize the judge of the judgmental

voice of the parent or the dismissive voice of the parent. All that stuff um gets in our heads and um it drives so

much of our misery and what you just described offers a tremendous amount of agency. Yes. in terms of what will we

agency. Yes. in terms of what will we will accept or won't accept from others what we request from others let's be

positive here uh but at least equally importantly is what I heard uh is what how harsh we are with our inner dialogue and that we should cultivate a a

kindness internally because I do believe I'm certain that cultivates an external kindness >> yes start with you be kind to too. Uh,

okay. So, I'll tell a story if you're not bored.

>> No, please.

>> Uh, absolutely true story. So, I was off at a conference, you know, and blah blah blah. And it was I was signing books.

blah. And it was I was signing books.

Uh, and it was late and one of my handlers, Terry, you going to miss your plane? Okay. I got I'm on the plane. I'm

plane? Okay. I got I'm on the plane. I'm

on the plane.

I'm not drinking now, but I was drinking then. I had a little glass of short. I

then. I had a little glass of short. I

had my feet off. Uh, and uh, I'm feeling great. And I feel this coldness on my

great. And I feel this coldness on my chest. And I look down and there's this

chest. And I look down and there's this big black splotch on my shirt. And I

realized I was signing books with like a Sharpie.

>> And in my haste, I didn't put the cap on. I put the sharp and it was like

on. I put the sharp and it was like permanent ink.

>> And I gotta tell you, Andrew, this was like this is one of my I hope I go on Oprah shirt. This is an expensive

Oprah shirt. This is an expensive goddamn shirt. And I'm ADD. I'm always

goddamn shirt. And I'm ADD. I'm always

breaking things, bumping. So that

adaptive child part of me was going to town. You're such a loser. You can't

town. You're such a loser. You can't

even look at you. You can't. And I'm

depressive. Uh I wrote about it. That

shirt and the harshness that I would level at myself could have turned into a five-day depression when I was younger.

And having learned these techniques, I leaned, it's just a boy, just a young boy in me. And I leaned to that adapter.

I said, "Listen, sweetheart, let me tell you something. The same ADD brain that

you something. The same ADD brain that ruined this shirt is the brain that wrote the books that were being autographed.

So, how about you cut me some slack?"

You know, I'm a therapist. I have very little cost of Kleenex, you know, an office. This shirt cost to do business.

office. This shirt cost to do business.

Sit down and let me enjoy my wine. And

he did.

Uh we don't have to be passive about these things. We can shape what goes on

these things. We can shape what goes on in our relationships, include our our relationships to ourselves.

uh stand up for health, but with um finesse and love, not with a blunt instrument. Uh and we get better at it.

instrument. Uh and we get better at it.

You you love the gym, the you go to the gym and you work out the first time, you feel like you're going to throw up. You

go to the gym the 300th time, you got it nailed. Same thing with this. That harsh

nailed. Same thing with this. That harsh

voice turns on you and you say, "Honey, stop." The first time you do it, they'll

stop." The first time you do it, they'll laugh at you. the 300th time you do it, they'll stop. That's called liberation.

they'll stop. That's called liberation.

That's freedom.

That's our birthright.

Fantastic. Well, Terry, real um this was a true education in relational understanding. That's what the word I'm

understanding. That's what the word I'm looking for. and relational

looking for. and relational understanding because I think men especially, I will say men especially, we think about ourselves and the

landscape and how we're going to deal with the landscape. It's like I maybe now I just with your permission I'll just say I have this this wild somewhat facicious story about the Y chromosome.

May I?

>> Oh yeah, go ahead.

>> May I? So, I have a theory that long ago um some primordial version of us, a homo sapiens, um with a Y chromosome, picked

up a rock and was like, "Oh, interesting." And then just like hit his

interesting." And then just like hit his head with it and was like, "Ow, that hurts." And then hit the guy next to him

hurts." And then hit the guy next to him and they were like, "Oh, that hurts."

And then they got together and like, "What would happen if we threw this over that tree? Let's see what and and I sort

that tree? Let's see what and and I sort of half joking because I think there's something about the Y chromosome that you observe in like if you uh go to a wedding and there's boys there and

everyone gets their jackets and their ties and like within no time the boys are combining all the drinks and they're like what would happen if [laughter] and who's going to drink it and then at some

point it turns into this idea of having action at a distance like there's something about the Y chromosome we want to see that sometimes it's a remote control car. Like the first time you

control car. Like the first time you play with a remote control car, you're like, "Oh, wow. I can control something at a distance." Sounds very diabolical, but it's just cool. You're over here, it's over there, right? And um likewise

with a video game or there's something about this like action at distance and let's see what would happen if and I look at a lot of my adult male friends, some who are very very successful phenoms, and they're still playing this

game of what would happen if and action at a distance to get this feedback about whether or not they're doing well in life.

all awesome features to being male. I

love being male. I think the Y chromosome should be celebrated um just as the X chromosome should be celebrated. And at the same time, none

celebrated. And at the same time, none of that addresses what you were talking about today. And so there are a few people

today. And so there are a few people only a few and I know you're among them now having spoken to you and heard from you more importantly who can understand

the first piece about what would happen if and the action at a distance and the second piece the relational piece and all too often these are separated. It's like,

"Oh, let's talk about evolutionary theory about what men need a provider, protector, and then and then it's," no, let's let's actually feel our feelings and dissolve into a puddle of our own tears, and then we're going to resurrect

in a in a new form. That's so that's like, you know, enlighten like no, these things have to be >> That's right.

>> Um in whole.

>> I want wholeness.

>> That's the word I'm looking for. You are

speaking to how men and boys help can be whole people. And I love it. and you

whole people. And I love it. and you

give very practical, very actionable advice and it's going to help a lot of people. So,

I'm very grateful that you've written your books. We'll put links to your

your books. We'll put links to your books, to your courses. It sounds like people can sign up for these courses and take these courses >> and for coming here today and for being a public educator and teaching people,

men and women, but today mostly men how to love themselves more, love other people more, love life more, and learn to relate. So, thank you so much for

to relate. So, thank you so much for coming here.

>> You're doing beautiful work.

There's so much and darkness in this world right now. And I want to tell you, it's a blessing to be taken seriously by you and to be offered this

opportunity. And it's fun hanging out

opportunity. And it's fun hanging out with you.

>> I'm right back at you. I feel very honored and blessed to have you here.

And this was a lot of fun. To be

continued.

>> To be continued.

>> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Terry Real. To learn

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>> [music]