DHT DEEP DIVE - Q&A Live, Austin Oral @Parabolic33(#01)

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All right, welcome back YouTube. This is

Eric. With us tonight is Austin Parabolic 33. Here to talk about DHT.

Parabolic 33. Here to talk about DHT.

We're going to get into a DHT deep dive.

And uh Austin here, he has been running experiments with DHT and using DHT.

Probably has more experience with DHT than all of us here combined. So, it's

going to be a great show tonight, guys.

Of course, it's going to be an interactive Q&A. Drop those questions in

interactive Q&A. Drop those questions in the chat. We'll flag those for you. And

the chat. We'll flag those for you. And

uh if they pertain to discussion, of course, we'll take them. And if they don't, then uh once the discussion is over, you have questions for Austin, for Ryan, even for Jay, uh feel free. We'll

get to those. So Austin, what's going on, brother? It's been a while. Been

on, brother? It's been a while. Been

about three, four weeks.

>> We're not going to talk so much about SHBG tonight, but well, it looks like we might be, but DHT is going to be the primary topic.

>> We may touch on it. I have some theories, but um yeah, I've been good.

Um I've been saying for a long time now that part of my plan is been at the start of this new year to put myself up

on YouTube, started my own YouTube channel, and then very quickly I used that to comment on your guys's deep dive on SHBG, >> and now I've kind of been a a regular

here >> instead. So more is coming on that

>> instead. So more is coming on that channel. I've been, you know, wanting to

channel. I've been, you know, wanting to slowly implement this because previously I've just been focused on living the lifestyle of bodybuilding and doing the experiment. So it didn't leave much time

experiment. So it didn't leave much time for anything else.

>> And now um I wanted to take a four to five month phase where I just instead use all of my free time and prioritize

that into doing more stuff like this.

the podcasting and um >> my own videos content. You know, there's a lot to do. So, that's, you know, that's what I'm up to outside of this.

But today, um it's about DHT.

>> Mhm. Well, you definitely got the uh you got the name, you got you got the um intelligence, you got the experience, >> and uh you also have the persona. So, uh

you know, you put put some effort into your channel, and you you've already you're already well known in the community. I mean, by a lot of people,

community. I mean, by a lot of people, the podcast that you've been on. So, if

we can help in any way to get you get you off the ground and going, that'd be great.

>> This helps. This is it. You guys are amazing. So, thank you.

amazing. So, thank you.

>> You know, for expressing interest, you know, thank you for anybody who's interested.

>> I just love doing this and I like to share it and it's really as simple as that, you know, but now it's time to share it a little more.

>> Yeah. It's it's what we need. Um, and as a as a hormone community, well, as a society, actually, I mean, we need people who are, you know, really willing

to take deep dives in this and and do it for to to help others, right? Like

that's that's the goal. That's the

reason why you kind of use your body to experiment >> and um figure this all out so that you can let people know. And now now uh you've kind of done all the the

experimentation and trials so every everybody else has it easier um when they when they're when they're trying to >> you know optimize. So that's great.

>> Exactly. And it's it seems like it's a pattern in I guess just how I like to do whatever it is that I'm doing during that phase of my life. You know, I've mentioned this kind of series of three

different decades of my life, but you know, what I was doing previously mirrors this, and it's that I don't just like to get good at whatever it is that

I'm doing. I like to get good at the

I'm doing. I like to get good at the potential expense of doing it differently. And some of the questions

differently. And some of the questions that I have, you know, instead of just doing what works, I kind of half of the fun maybe even more is uh

exploring, you know, I guess. So

tinkering.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, so that kind of is what where these experiments derive from.

>> Yeah. And it just so happens that the last three years, you know, I've been just like inundated between my personal life, which isn't very extensive, and

uh, you know, blood work multiple times a week sometimes, and, you know, making notes experiments whatever.

Um, yeah, now it's time to report some of those things. Hey, before we get started, I got a quick question for you because somebody uh Phil actually brought this up on one of the shorts I had put up with you in it where uh yeah,

it was about your transformation about SHBG all that. I think I forget what it was about Boston. Anyhow, on one of your uh like one of your bulk pictures, you were doing a front double buy or no, you

were doing a lat spread. You were doing a front lat spread >> and he said, "It looks like you have a lat injury. One side is bigger than the

lat injury. One side is bigger than the other." And I was like, "Holy shit." I

other." And I was like, "Holy shit." I

looked at that and I was like, "You know what? I wonder if he's on an angle or if

what? I wonder if he's on an angle or if you actually did have some sort of lat injury. What is it?

injury. What is it?

>> So, I can't I can't tell, but it's funny you mentioned that because uh I've tried to look at this, but you know, my surgery scar, as you know, the surgery I had from my dirt bike wreck,

>> right? Yeah.

>> right? Yeah.

>> To go into what was originally supposed to be a surgery to remove my left lung was actually ended up they ended up getting in there and my doctor, Dr.

Cameron Wright, saved it. the entire

lung minus like a 5% portion I think he'd said is the best way to quantify it that had scar tissue blocking air from getting in and out of it.

>> So I had to have my lat completely cut through on the left side. Um did you say what side it was?

>> Uh yeah it would have been uh let's see posing. So yeah it would have been your

posing. So yeah it would have been your right side.

>> So my right side looks smaller or bigger.

>> Well it it depends on the camera. If the

camera was reversing, if you were in a mirror, then it would have been >> It wasn't It wasn't in a mirror. So,

Huh. Interesting. But I've tried to look at pictures of my back and um it's so difficult to like >> cuz the there's a lot of shadows on that area. You almost can't have any shadows

area. You almost can't have any shadows on that area at all.

>> Yeah.

>> To be able to like tell if the lats are symmetrical. But I've thought that and

symmetrical. But I've thought that and I've noticed it too, but I'm undecided on it. But yes, I have an injury. You

on it. But yes, I have an injury. You

know, I still actually have this. You can't see.

this. You can't see.

>> Okay, I got it up right now. It's

>> But I guess >> it's your right side for certain. Your

right side for certain. I have it up right now.

>> Is smallage.

Oh, that's good. Yeah, I guess you know what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So my left lat ended up maybe

stronger. So my left lat ended up maybe getting stronger to compensate. I don't

know.

But um yeah, I still don't have a feeling properly.

>> Oh yeah.

>> Yeah. See if

>> my lap looks bigger. Wow. Maybe I just would have had high lat insertions prior and maybe this changed the insertion point. Make it lower. I don't know.

point. Make it lower. I don't know.

>> Interesting.

>> I don't know. I didn't want to get off the beaten beaten path, but as I was like, you know, about that. I was

actually really glad to talk about that because I've asked Jay about that too, like to see if uh okay, >> there were any pictures I had of my back where I could like tell because I've

wondered the same thing, you know?

>> I would imagine when they reattached it, they probably did it in a way that was extremely secure.

>> So they may have that's why it probably doesn't look the same because like when they reattach a bicep, you know, they like pull it through and out the other side and staple it. Like they really want to make sure it doesn't tear again.

So maybe >> I don't know. Yeah. I don't know because uh the the muscle never like detached from the bone. They just like cut

through the muscle to to get into my rib cage through the back. So, um

>> none of us are symmetrical anyway. I

mean, some of us are one hell of a recovery.

>> Yeah. Thanks.

>> Yeah. Um I still don't have full feeling on that side. Like my skin there feels all pins and needles still. like you

could take me down if you poke my left rib cage anywhere along it.

>> So, I'm actually >> Now, I wonder if that's got to do with your nerve signaling.

>> Yeah, it is. It's They had Yeah, it's not firing properly. So, if certain fibers aren't are uh hypertrophying because they're not getting >> much, >> right? Yeah. You know, I would think

>> right? Yeah. You know, I would think Yeah. I don't know exactly what's going

Yeah. I don't know exactly what's going on there.

>> Wait, you got nerve damage that like >> pins and needles like right now?

>> Yeah, it feels like pins and needles still. It was much worse when I after I

still. It was much worse when I after I first had it in 2012, but I still have it to this day.

>> Let me put that on my research list.

Maybe there's something we can do.

There's got to be something out there.

>> That happened to Big Ramy. His lats like disappeared because he had uh he had I think it was like some thoracic injuries for discs that were impinging and he just wasn't getting the nerves to fire into the muscle fibers.

>> And uh they were showing like pictures from like a year or two before and then it like progressed and his lash just like vanished. It's crazy. came out.

like vanished. It's crazy. came out.

>> Yeah. Um Steve was talking about that in one of his new videos on the YK11 that he's like noticed in his progress pictures. I think his left calf he's

pictures. I think his left calf he's like thought he has some nerve damage in that or in nerve damage somewhere higher up that's causing his calf to

>> size. But in me, I mean, if it's my left

>> size. But in me, I mean, if it's my left side is bigger, I guess it seemed to have the opposite effect, right? Right.

You know, because my right side is the normal side. I don't know. Yeah. But

normal side. I don't know. Yeah. But

it's very interesting, though.

>> Well, all thanks to Phil. He caught it.

I didn't even notice it.

>> Yeah. Thanks, Phil. Thanks for the question.

>> All right.

>> You want to dive in? You want me to just dive in?

>> Jump right in. Let's get right into the DHT and uh then you know Ryan Jay and the audience will jump right in whenever they feel like it.

Okay. So, um

uh I've mentioned DHT, you know, in my experience with actually using exogenous DHT and my effects with it

in in other videos with you guys, but I actually personally I don't get any effect that I am able to notice from it.

And this kind of ties into my SHBG protocol where you know I use the estradiol as the base without testosterone and use some other lesser

suppressive to SHBG androgen on top you know so like primo estradiol nandelone estradiol uh DHB estradi etc those end up

resulting in you not having DHT because you remove the substrate you remove the testosterone you know although there is backdoor pathways for the

neuroststereroids to turn into DHT. Um,

you know, I suspect it I don't actually know. I should test that to see what my

know. I should test that to see what my DHT level is.

>> My testosterone level is 27 or 23 nanogs per deciliter. So, I know that's

per deciliter. So, I know that's crushed. But in terms of my actual DHT

crushed. But in terms of my actual DHT level, I don't know. But I don't notice any effect from it mentally or Oh, Jay, were you going to say you going to say something? Can you this is really

something? Can you this is really there's a really nice opportunity here to to mention you're taking DHEA every day and we can actually tell how much of that's being converted into testosterone which is jack [ __ ] [ __ ] because what

do they tell you when you try to get on TRT just take DHEA it'll convert into tests and you'll be fine. Right. Well,

look at look at your conversion rate.

You're a healthy young guy. DHEA is not converting into a significant because you take 100 milligrams oral every day.

Right.

>> Yeah. I I have stopped it before like I mentioned, but I didn't really remember like I stopped it because I've run out or something. So, it wasn't like a

or something. So, it wasn't like a controlled experiment where I was trying to see if I noticed a difference with verse without the DHEA.

>> But yes, in general, I take 100 milligrams a day.

>> Okay, that's a good opportunity.

>> Yeah, good point.

>> 100 milligrams of DHEA >> DHA. 100 milligrams. Yeah. Yeah.

>> DHA. 100 milligrams. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yes. And pregnetone 100 milligrams, too.

Yep.

>> So Jay, if I understand correctly, you were saying uh the DHEA in me probably isn't converting to much DHT, you think?

>> Well, if you took a blood test a couple hours after you took a 100 milligrams and your testosterone was only 23. I

mean that >> Oh, but can it convert directly to DHT through some other way skipping testosterone? And the the stereoenesis

testosterone? And the the stereoenesis does not indicate a a direct or any pathway that circumvents testosterone.

It would have to go to testosterone.

>> Oh, okay. So, it has to go to testosterone first. I wonder if

testosterone first. I wonder if pregnnolone maybe could then because it's further up um from DHEA in the steroidenesis cascade. But uh

steroidenesis cascade. But uh yeah, it's not something I have committed to memory. But um regardless,

you know, I don't I want to say I probably have low DHT if you were to check on a blood test >> only because when I've used exogenous

DHT in various forms or just simply replaced testosterone back in my protocol, I am not able to detect a

difference actually in any regards outside of one which is the ability to tolerate very very ridiculously high

levels of estradiol when DHT is high.

Which brings me to, you know, what I feel like I'm the, you know, popularizer of, definitely not the creator of, somebody correct me if I'm wrong if anyone else is doing this, but it's

using the topical DHT cream as a method to get rid of gynecomastia.

Like, and when I say get rid of, I mean like actually getting rid of, you know, in myself and a few other people at this point, like they were basically told by

anybody who looks at it who knows this stuff that surgery is your only option, >> you know, and um they were there for a long time, you know, years on the orders

of decades, and the DHT was still able to completely reverse it >> to the point nothing was visible anymore.

>> That's great. actually reversing

gynecomastia like breast tissue growth.

That's fantastic.

>> Yeah. Right. You know, I want to see this more.

>> So, you're saying it would reduce not only the glandular mass, but the breast tissue that developed itself.

>> Yeah. Well, the glandular tissue is the that is the breast tissue. There is fat that goes around with it.

>> Right. That's what I was referring to as the fat that kind of like gives it that cone shape.

>> For me, it does both. It's done both.

And the other people I've done it with, it's done both. Unfortunately, DHT is uh harder to get now.

>> Yep. Very hard to get >> or Yeah. Um

Um Where did I want to go next with that? Um, so yeah, DHT, I don't know

that? Um, so yeah, DHT, I don't know why, if it's just me, but at least in three other of my friends,

uh, who have used topical DHT and injectable DHT base weren't, um, able to get like any acute benefits from it

mentally or in a strength context or anything else aside from the ability to tolerate higher estrogen levels. without

uh gynecomastia symptoms or reversing breast tissue growth >> itself. So that's it it seems like you

>> itself. So that's it it seems like you know but I also know um you guys talked with uh Ryan from Cortex Labs and he's such a big advocate for that for DHT.

>> Absolutely. So much so that I'm for sure I'm not writing that off because uh if he says it, you know, I really value what he has to say a lot. So I'm going

to keep trying um you know, see if maybe I can get some other use case out of it because it seems like uh it has great effects mentally and stamina wise, you

know for some >> Yeah. unequivocally like for some people

>> Yeah. unequivocally like for some people the increase in DHT helps like things like cognitive function, sense of well-being, especially like libido, erection quality, like we

>> there are some some cases where unequivocally it helps that like it like dramatically increasing their DHD does help that. Well, it just I must be in a

help that. Well, it just I must be in a weird sample because I'm like four for four of all of my closest friends who uh you know have been doing this for a

while who have taken DHT in various forms and they don't get anything from it uh that they could notice.

>> Yeah, not everybody is going to. In

fact, some people would make worse, right? So some people when we add DHT it

right? So some people when we add DHT it like it you know the the neuro steroidal function um over probably I don't this is just a guess but probably

overproduces the the um you know the the effect of of of probably too much um catakolamine production right so now

too much epinephrine and too much norepinephrine I mean that's just a guess but yeah some people it just actually causes a problem where where now they get more anxiety this revved up feeling that where where

they can't um they can't calm down, right? So sometimes it has that effect

right? So sometimes it has that effect on people.

>> Oh man, I wish it did that for me just so I could see it. But uh yeah, my friend Alec Matrevky who, you know, he'll like make fun of me for still

trying to give it a go. He's like, you know, it's just kind of his character.

He's kind of a like uh he's kind of blunt so he'll be like what the [ __ ] are you doing messing around with that stuff?

>> Well, and I imagine has something to do pro I mean you know the there's androgen the the receptors that the DHT is specifically having a function on are

just androgen receptors. Right. So

>> right. Yeah. There's no DHT receptor.

For some people they would experience the benefit of having DHT has this um exceptional binding affinity to these androgen receptors no matter where they

are. And of course we you know we know

are. And of course we you know we know that the HSD enzyme um breaks DHT down in the muscle that's why it's not anabolic right or would be but um

>> same with perviron >> right yes and so so but for some you know definitively there's a higher binding affinity of DHT

toen receptors now if you're >> also >> if you >> I'm sorry >> I said also with the efficacy too like it binds longer there and causes more

transcription for each bind.

>> Yeah. Now, now somebody somebody who's just really responds well to androgens, right? And and this is typically

right? And and this is typically bodybuilding. They like in my experience

bodybuilding. They like in my experience like they don't they like and this is probably what's happening to you is you're just getting enough agonization with no matter what androgen is there where you don't specifically need the

DHT because >> because you just have a you're really receptive you're you're receptive really have a really strong affinity to any androgen right so >> right >> so some you know depending on people's

specific binding affinities every you know as we've we've learned everybody's specific androen receptors are are different The engine receptor is a little different for everybody and some people have just higher binding

affinities than others. So some people are really need that extra binding affinity and in your case and then some pe you know a lot of people who are really who respond really well to

androgens they just they don't need that extra binding affinity. They they just respond well to any androgen.

>> Yeah. And uh that's kind of it might be too soon because I think it's only been like 11 days or 12 since I have injected

anything. Um I was just using NPP and

anything. Um I was just using NPP and YK11 which are both pretty quick esters.

So you know I went uh 10 days without anything and then um you know now I'm switching to something else. I'm going

to just take at uh 250 milligrams a week probably something like that. So I

actually tried the injectable DHT again, you know, in this background state of having lower androgens.

>> Mhm.

>> To see if I still could notice anything.

I still didn't. But it's also I think like >> I mean I've only been on the down slope for like a week at this point, right?

>> So um you know I'm going to definitely try it again later. Yeah, it's a very interesting experiment.

>> Yeah.

>> Hey, Mickey, good to see you.

>> I mean, this is an interesting question right here that Chris daughter gave. So,

yeah. I mean, it's it's it's ridiculous that there's noies in in in the United States that have, >> right? I mean, it's just ridiculous.

>> right? I mean, it's just ridiculous.

Like, why why I mean, it's as we're going to go into here, it's got so many benefits, right? There were so many

benefits, right? There were so many potential benefits like as Austin has mentioned that it doesn't have a benefits for everybody. Some people just responded well to any androgen no matter what. But

what. But >> I still benefit in that you know that other context I mentioned. But

>> yeah right. So you know what what we could do Jay like we have some access to someies right like we could actually just ask them hey can you can you

produce this and and um and would you uh and would you like I don't seller law against it. I don't I don't think there

against it. I don't I don't think there is. I mean,

is. I mean, >> they just buying Well, the compounding pharmacy doesn't synthesize it though, right? They just get the the raws and

right? They just get the the raws and then they mix and created cream out of it, right? Yeah.

it, right? Yeah.

>> Is it illegal for them to buy DHT powder raw?

>> Well, as we've seen like there's there'sarmacies that are producing methanol. There's one pharmacy

methanol. There's one pharmacy specifically that produces methanol.

It's done bold known in the past. And

now now is the is DHT specifically not FDA approved? I'm actually not sure

FDA approved? I'm actually not sure about that. I guess we could

about that. I guess we could >> I can't imagine why.

>> No, it still says like in the Wikipedia at least that it is still used for like androgen replacement therapy hormone that up actually

>> if it's FDA approved that's an easier it's easier for a pharmacy to offer it then. So you know what we'll do Chris?

then. So you know what we'll do Chris?

We're g like I'm gonna make a note to some of my pharmacies and ask them can you can you um would you be able to create DHT and um and

>> not an antiate if you're doing it for me.

>> Okay.

>> Just I I I don't know. I can't take it.

>> Do a DHT.

>> I have I have multiple people coming to me about breast tissue growth and and >> Yeah. What about You can't even get the

>> Yeah. What about You can't even get the creams. No, like not right now. That's what

we're gonna ask. And I actually always tell everybody is like, "Hey, have you seen our channel? Have you talked to Parabolic?" I said, "Go to his channel

Parabolic?" I said, "Go to his channel and actually and email him. He can teach you how to get how to actually reverse your gut mass." I tell people that all the time. Wouldn't it be great if we if

the time. Wouldn't it be great if we if we could actually get him the DHT cream to do this, too?

>> Oh, sure.

>> People need to understand that a lot of people think they have gyno because they don't know what it is. And uh it turns out they're just fat.

>> And it's really sad because >> instead of getting gyne surgery, you can just understand that you don't have it at all.

>> Yeah.

>> And then you don't need the surgery because you can just >> bring yourself to match with reality and know that you don't have it >> because they're just like, "Look at my gyno." It's like, dude, no. That's your

gyno." It's like, dude, no. That's your

chest fat.

>> You don't need surgery.

Like >> I had this I had this one patient that I mean I actually had to get I actually had to to tell him I couldn't treat him anymore because he was that bad. He was

he had this other level of paranoia that he was experiencing all of these side effects. And what what I like to tell

effects. And what what I like to tell people is there is nobody who won't listen to me that I haven't been able to help. Like if you listen to me I'll get

help. Like if you listen to me I'll get you to where you're going. And sometimes

it takes some time because sometimes you get some super difficult cases and you get people really sensitive, right, to especially to estrogenic or or certain side effects. So, but if you if people

side effects. So, but if you if people will listen to me, but what I do have is people who freak themselves out and then quit listening to me and just go off the rails and and and just quit, right? And

and it's, you know, specifically because they won't listen to me. So I had this one this one guy who was just convinced he had he had um gynecomastia and he was

growing breast and he was like a skinny guy too so it wasn't so he was like no look I have it and and he sent me these pictures he was so I have a a phone full

of pictures of this dude's tits >> sounds like it's an emergency >> pictures and there was no goddamn difference like I had this before and after and I'm like you don't there's Nothing here. You don't have

Nothing here. You don't have gynecomastia. No. No. I can see it. I'm

gynecomastia. No. No. I can see it. I'm

like, what here?

>> What are you talking about? Like, and so definitely >> you can feel it, man. It's painful when it's coming on.

>> What I've had to deal with is people's psyche, right? That's a major thing that

psyche, right? That's a major thing that we have to deal with. And that what I have to actually teach my employees to deal with is you know is people's psyche is really important aspect to deal with

like and >> well it's like who who really who isn't on androgens or TH TRT who you know

thinks about their nipples as a man um you know it's not that much you know so guys their worst fear of going on is getting gyno so

>> start paying attention to it and >> you know so there's like a a placebo effect of that but also I don't I haven't looked into this but I know that

um you know like when a baby suckles that's a prolactin stimulus itself. So,

if you're con I don't know if constantly feeling yourself could be a prolactin stimulus too, just like the same way suckling is.

>> I don't know if it's ever been looked at, but or if it would cause that, but >> you know, I don't think it would help.

>> It's great you think that because I have seen some evidence that it does. Like

when you touch it a lot, if you're really concerned and you touch it a lot, you're actually increasing the potential for a response there.

>> But listen to this guys. If prolactin is what makes you not horny anymore and you're horny and you want you tell someone like suck my tits and they're like sucking and all a suen you get turned off maybe it's not your fault

like maybe it's still good but like you got a prolactin release and now you're turned off then the other person's like what did I do you said you suck them so I suck them and now you're don't want to

[ __ ] no more like what's going on here post titty lick clarity >> yeah there you go you're going to do something real crazy. Just rub them titties.

>> Yeah, >> you'll feel you'll feel clean and refreshed afterwards with a clear >> remember that. Don't suck them. She'll

get turned off and the night will be ruined.

>> And if you could suck them, you might have to run on that treadmill for a bit longer.

>> Yeah. But I guess the point was that like a large part of what we have to deal with is is people's psyche. And

like a lot of people are so afraid of side effects that they manufacture side effects that they that either don't have or they blame side effects on testosterone that aren't really due to testosterone. I get that quite often

testosterone. I get that quite often too. My foot hurts. Should I stop my

too. My foot hurts. Should I stop my testosterone like >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I can give you that up more than once. I think that's actually happened.

once. I think that's actually happened.

>> It has. It has.

>> It has happened. So actually my foot hurts.

>> Is this the testosterone? Should I slap it? Yeah, I've had that.

it? Yeah, I've had that.

>> Wow.

Go ahead, Jay. What were you going to say?

>> So, there's some things where people take over the counter supplements that their doctor told them to take because their doctor was making [ __ ] up.

>> Like, uh, somebody I know recently was told to take SAM E, but um, I actually was looking into methyl groups and methylation is not only involved in the

breakdown of neurotransmitters, it's also involved in the creation of them as well. Mhm.

well. Mhm.

>> So, like you can be taking supplements with the expectation it's going to calm you down and it's actually speeding you up and so then you take more of it and more of it and and you're getting the opposite effect, but then you can also be like, "Well, it can't be this bottle

because my doctor said this bottle would calm me down and I'm freaking out. Maybe

it's because I went from 100 milligrams a week to 105. I bet that extra five milligrams is what's doing it, you know, and then now you're looking in the wrong direction." So, just another example.

direction." So, just another example.

>> Yeah.

Yeah. Um, oh, damn it. I forgot what I was gonna say.

>> I wanna I want to talk like Jay, I want to talk a little bit more about um methylated vitamins and how and and how we you've kind of like through a lot of

um research, we've kind of indicated that there's probably no reason to take those.

>> Well, no, hold on. Your your terminology was incorrect. You said methylated

was incorrect. You said methylated supplements. This is supplements that

supplements. This is supplements that contain methyl groups. That's different.

>> Okay. All right. It's not that the supplement itself is methylated. It's

like these is like this is literally Sammy. These are like methyl donors.

Sammy. These are like methyl donors.

>> It could be if it's like methylcobalin or um there's one other form like if it's a methylated B vitamin >> methylated B vitamin, right? Is that

okay? So that's not what we're talking about.

>> No, because something being methylated is different than something acting as a methyl group donor.

>> Donor. I got you. Okay. All right. Good.

>> Hey Ryan, real quick. Uh, is it you that answers your uh IG DMs? Mike was asking.

>> Yeah, I do. I do.

I do answer.

>> That's all. I just want to clear it up.

>> But I also apologize. I don't have a lot of time to get to my my Instagram, so I don't uh >> don't have a lot of time.

>> I'd like to >> You have no time. Do you have negative time, >> right?

>> Crazy.

>> Oh, man.

>> Yeah. See? Yes.

I've actually read about it before like like and so part of the problem, right, is people will be searching for gynecomastia and they'll be like always touching and then that impro increases

the the the potential that you have gynecomastia symptoms. >> Well, I want to be clear on prolactin because I I have a unique experience of

having extremely high prolactin without high estrogen. There was no visible

high estrogen. There was no visible difference at all. It was just you just felt wet all the time. Like why do I feel wet? What the [ __ ] But there was

feel wet? What the [ __ ] But there was no growth.

>> Yeah.

>> So, um I just wanted to me but but if you already have breath issue >> when it fills with milk bigger >> but the milk expanding the gland that's

already there is different than you not having a gland there >> and then all of a sudden glandular tissue is getting produced and ductal branching happening and lobular develop.

None of that's going to happen from prolactin. Mhm.

prolactin. Mhm.

>> Okay. So, there wasn't I'm assuming that in that case because you need the other co-actors for it like IGF >> balloon with milk.

>> You know, the balloon gets bigger because you fill it with milk, not because the milk made the balloon become more material.

>> Yeah.

>> Did I get an analogy right for once?

Holy [ __ ] >> That made a lot of sense to me. I got

it. Good job.

>> Finally.

If you guys want, I put together a little presentation about the enzymes that affect DHT because this is something no one has talked about and that's what we like to do here is just

>> rea HSD versus three beta HSD.

>> I would love to do this. Let's

>> you go to the outline. I put it underneath my name >> as a tab called enzymes.

>> Oh, there's a new tab there.

>> Yeah.

Yeah, sure. And you guys can hop in on this, read it along, you know, it's just uh some information here about three alpha HSD versus three beta HSD.

>> Okay.

>> And one of them is breaking down DHT and then one is involved in the synthesis of glucaorts, mineral corticoids, progesterone, androens, things like that.

This is like so one of these enzymes drives to make an enzyme, you know, become more become something different than what is like a breakdown. So just

uh whatever you see in there that looks interesting because um >> just >> so just just to start like so the reason

why DHT is not anabolic is because the three alpha HSD enzyme breaks it down in muscle mass only in muscle mass and that's why it does not um agonize the androgen receptors in in your muscles

that's why it's not anabolic um >> yep >> okay so go ahead Jay >> and I did try to look up if there's a genetic condition where someone could be born without the alpha HSD and then they could you but like that would [ __ ] up so

many things that I don't know if you'd be able to survive like >> that'd be bad. But

yeah, that's that's because it's you you think well if it's a strong as hell androgen receptor why does it not make muscles grow? Well, it's because it

muscles grow? Well, it's because it >> it gets in there and then the enzymes are like, you know, attached to it and then it's just it becomes one of its it looks like it turns into five alpha

androain or 3A dial is what we know it as the shortened one. 3A dial like three alpha

shortened one. 3A dial like three alpha and then three beta 3 alpha dial, three beta dial because one of them's in the in the prostate. When that happens, >> it can actually make the prostate shrink. So that's like the balancing

shrink. So that's like the balancing mechanism. DHT stimulates it to grow,

mechanism. DHT stimulates it to grow, but the enzymes can break it down into three beta dial, which would bind to the beta receptors as well.

>> So, >> yeah, I just thought you guys might find some of this interesting.

>> Um, are you talking about three beta androenadiol? Is that what you're

androenadiol? Is that what you're talking about?

>> So, they go by different names. Like

it'll say like three beta whatever long name and then in parenthesis at the end they have like the short one.

>> The but a metabolite of DHT though.

Correct.

Yeah, it says like five andain, three alpha, 17 beta dial, and then in parenthesis three alpha dial.

>> Okay. Yeah. I don't know if it's the same one, but one of the main metabolites of DHT is actually estrogenic.

>> Oh. Oh, I was scratching arms. >> Look at those big ass arms still.

>> Oh, man. I haven't measured them lately.

They probably shrunk.

>> I've lost 25 pounds or something like that.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Did you really? Wow.

I haven't been to the gym in four weeks and uh you know my maintenance is so high I need about uh

5,900 6,300 to grow at the end there.

And now I'm eating twice a day, three if I'm lucky. So that's a max of like 3,300

I'm lucky. So that's a max of like 3,300 calories. So, you know, you introduce a

calories. So, you know, you introduce a massive deficit, you pull the androgens away, you stop training, you just you melt >> pretty quickly. It's stable, though.

Like, I'm stable at like 227, 229.

>> Um, there like, but I got down to that very fast in like maybe two weeks, something like that, maybe three. But so

>> let us know and maybe you've already experienced it or let us know like in there while you're while you're coming down your engine levels are coming down and everything is is there a point when you actually feel better like as far as

even energy-wise less fatigue um >> that's what I want to notice.

>> Yeah. I because I I mean when I so you know earlier in my career I guess like it was all about being a mass monster right? I wanted to just get on

right? I wanted to just get on everything and get as big as I possibly could.

>> And I because I love the results of what I was doing like I never really paid attention. Like when I can think back

attention. Like when I can think back like I I was like a lot of times it's hard to get to the gym mainly because I was so tired all the time, right? And so

fatigued and I never really thought like oh the I just thought well because when I was hypoganatal before that I was tired all the time too and and then when I took large doses I was kind of tired.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's kind of like you know you have a lot going on and the the excess androgens will for from you know a few different mechanisms will cause

fatigue lethargy. So

fatigue lethargy. So >> I'll let you know you know one of the things I've I don't have a lot of fatigue at all. like I actually have a

lot of energy, but I, you know, I take I'm prescribed Aderall uh 20 milligrams and I take caffeine 200 milligram tablet in the morning. That's what I start my

day with. But even still, I've always

day with. But even still, I've always had even before this like a lot of sleep inertia for whatever reason. So like I wake up the first like two three hours

of the day sometimes I am very tired and then once I get going like I don't ever have a crash at any other point in the day >> like until I go to bed and then I just

fall asleep.

>> Yeah. But I've always had a regular bedtime, you know, aside from like a couple days a week at most where I sleep outside of my bedtime. And it's even

then it's by only like two or three hours at most.

Most days I, you know, I'm in bed by 11 and I'm up by, you know, 9 or 8. I sleep

like 10 hours sometimes or nine hours.

>> That's good. That's a lot of sleep, man.

That's really good.

>> Yeah. I think I need more than most people. Um but oh as I was saying

people. Um but oh as I was saying androgens I think if anything helped that sleep inertia that I was having you know so like if anything it's only been

the opposite but um it's not very noticeable even in that. So I am interested in seeing uh if there's a difference now that I've lowered the

dose. I'm at 250. I'm I'm going to do

dose. I'm at 250. I'm I'm going to do well that's another thing that might be different. You know I'm not taking just

different. You know I'm not taking just 250 tests. I'm doing uh 250 milligrams

250 tests. I'm doing uh 250 milligrams of bold sip with estradi.

>> So um >> it does at uh at anything like it's hit or miss. Sometimes you get a shot that

or miss. Sometimes you get a shot that is perfect. Actually most of them are

is perfect. Actually most of them are perfect. Every once in a while you get

perfect. Every once in a while you get one that debilitates you. But at um 50 milligrams per milliliter though, you get none. Like I I've once I've got it

get none. Like I I've once I've got it down to 50 >> Yeah.

>> milligrams per mill. Um it I've never had a single painful shot with it once that low. But at like a 100 it's kind of

that low. But at like a 100 it's kind of Yeah, it's risky.

>> Or especially like 200 is a super painful.

>> Oh man, I couldn't even get it to hold at 200. I don't know how do it's got to

at 200. I don't know how do it's got to have glycol or something in it.

>> Right. Right. Because I've done it in pure ethylolate too, you know. And uh

>> it it still didn't even hold that like 125.

>> Oh yeah.

>> With pure ethylolate and like 30% benzel benzelate.

>> Yeah.

>> Not to talk about that here, but um >> Yeah.

>> It's like >> it's so, you know, it's so I can take uh my own HRT, you know, and have it not be painful. That's why I have to do this.

painful. That's why I have to do this.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's so I have control over things like that. and know also know what I'm taking is what I'm actually taking too and accurately dosed etc. >> Yeah.

>> But I'll keep you guys posted as the dose goes lower. I'm going to switch back to test in like maybe a month or two. But like just for now I'm uh

two. But like just for now I'm uh starting this cruise off with just uh bolt sip and estradile. And I'm gonna

run my estradile at half of my uh when I'm blasting.

>> Yeah, that'll be interesting. Especially

it'll be interesting when you switch the test to see if if there's any difference there in the way you feel.

like you know and I have a lot of >> a lot of a lot of people I've guided over the decades here that once you know when you start to get high androgens like you start to get all you know all

all sorts of different things could happen you know even especially for like you know some of the orals like reduction production and symptoms of hypertension like and overload things like that

>> and you can just get this like you can hit a wall and it can be a fatigue and I've even noticed like when I'm when I start taken oxangeline too many days in a row. Um

a row. Um >> yeah, I remember this.

>> You get that fatigue and then uh but then you know when I when you back off the dose like you there's this area where you have this definitive better energy just better sense of well being

like I can work throughout the entire day without even noticing any fatigue.

>> Have you ever tried doing like aone and the next day Sazzle and then the next day Dball and then repeat?

>> I haven't. I'd love to try it though.

I'm not I'm not opposed to trying that.

It's a good idea.

>> Yeah, >> that'd be an interesting mix.

>> Yeah. So, you know, another thing for for the for the people watching. So, we

just established that the HSD enzyme 3 alpha HSD enzyme specifically um it um breaks down DHT into muscle

mass. That's why it's not anabolic. Um

mass. That's why it's not anabolic. Um

so when we talk about DHT derivatives right the derivatives are different enough from DHT that they are not substrates for this enzyme. So things

like primabolin um oxyandolone you know is is super anabolic. It's three times more anabolic than testosterone. The

reason for that is because it does not break down in muscle mass from this.

It's you know the the chemical structure is different enough where it's not a substrate for the 3 HSD enzyme. So

that's why they don't break down. This

also means that some of these don't act exactly like DHT. So like when we say DHT derivative, it doesn't mean that it acts like DHT.

>> Um >> yeah.

>> Or or proviron. Proviron probably asks the acts the most like DHT um of a of a DHT derivative and it it

also is close enough. Well, it is DHT and the only difference is it's C7 alkalated right?

>> So however that does not also does not mean that it acts just like DHT. So a

great example of this right is dianabol.

Dianabol and baldenone are the same exact chemical structure. The only

difference is the C7 alkalation. And as

we know dianabol has a significantly different effect in your body than injecting bone baldenome, right? They're

completely different when they when when one is taken early. Again, the only difference in the chemical structure is that C7 alkalation. So that goes to show you that things that are C17 alkalated do not necessarily act like their parent

hormone. Right.

hormone. Right.

>> Right. And another example is even um methyl one testosterone which is you know methylated dihydroboldone.

So um I've never taken methyl one testosterone or M1T but I think that was quite popular back in like the superdraw days. Oh you have Jay?

days. Oh you have Jay?

>> What did it do? The first thing I took I was in high school >> or it was right >> it actually a pro hormone and pro hormones are legal. So it was like you could go buy

legal. So it was like you could go buy it over the counter. Same thing with super draw, right? You could buy it over the counter >> and people are like, "Oh, I'm taking this new pro hormone." It's it pro

hormone. It's not a pro hormone freaking

hormone. It's not a pro hormone freaking Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, it was at GNC and and George Bush, the first one or second one, he made it illegal is in and then when it became illegal, there was a fire sale and so somebody we knew went into GNC

with their paycheck, got their wife's permission and was like, "I bought the whole [ __ ] store." And he was reselling it to people >> and he looked at us and he was like, "Look, I've got like a million M1Ts. Do

you guys want some bottles? You can buy them a h 100red bucks each, like whatever." And we were and we were like,

whatever." And we were and we were like, "No, no, no. We don't want to do it."

And then we went to the gym like we normally do on Friday night. We were

looking around all the guys that were bigger than us and we all looked at each other. We're like, "Let's go buy that

other. We're like, "Let's go buy that M1T.

>> Do it."

>> And uh so we went and got it, you know, and we got our money or whatever. And

then it it was brutal. That stuff was so strong. We uh dude, five milligrams per

strong. We uh dude, five milligrams per pill. I was taking two and I got

pill. I was taking two and I got horrendous bleeding within like two weeks. And my biceps were so pumped

weeks. And my biceps were so pumped after my curls that I would have the barbell stuck and I like, "Guys, I can't put the bar down. I have to come over and like physically release my biceps to

get the weight down because the pumps were so bad."

>> What? Uh,

>> thanks.

>> What do you mean bleeding >> nose? Like bloody coming out the nose,

>> nose? Like bloody coming out the nose, the eyes, and even even on the toilet paper. Like all my blood vessels had

paper. Like all my blood vessels had blood.

>> Oh my god.

>> Oh man.

>> Yeah, >> that's bad.

>> I brought up at dinner. We were eating like tuna with like noodles or some poor college kid meal together at the dinner table and I was like, "Are you guys bleeding out of your ass, too?" And

everyone's like, "I'm so glad you said that." Oh, yeah. Like, we're all

that." Oh, yeah. Like, we're all bleeding out of our asses. Like, we

probably shouldn't be taking this.

>> Like, I had no other guy took even more. He just he stayed on it. But like,

>> yeah, M1T was This is from GNC. Like,

this was [ __ ] up. And we were like >> I heard it's like ultra potent Dball.

Like I mean actually it's a metabolite of Dball like so I wonder if like some of the action that Dball does is from its conversion of M1T. I don't know but

>> and it says on the bottle >> this is liver safe because it's methylated which protects it from the liver. So we were like that was part of

liver. So we were like that was part of the selling point like well it's methylated.

>> Yeah that's exactly how it works right.

Yeah.

>> Nope.

>> Way stronger than Dean Bol, but yes, similar.

>> Interesting.

>> All right. Um All right. So, Austin, did you did you have further to go on uh >> Oh, yeah. I did. I haven't even got to that yet. So, um

that yet. So, um let me see. I think it's in my tab. We

don't have to pull up the study but the name of the study is um anti-estrogenic action of dihydrotestosterone in mous breast

competition with estradiol for binding to the estrogen receptor. Notice you say they say competition with binding for estradile for the estro estradi receptor

the estrogen receptor. Um so um basically it's been known and shown in other studies that DHT is able to offset

and prevent breast growth uh from the action of estradile. So it's able to oppose the action of estradile through

some unknown mechanism. And uh in this study, the way they've tested this is they took two groups of mice and or sorry rats,

but they had a group of rats with a non-functional androgen receptor and regular rats with a functional androgen

receptor. And they castrate both

receptor. And they castrate both give them estradiol at varying doses and DHT at varying doses. And then they ended up just selecting the one dose of

estradile that was sufficient to cause breath breast growth and then different DHT doses on top of that.

>> And I think it was basically all of the doses used of DHT were able to prevent breast growth, >> including in the rats that had

nonfunctional androgen receptors. So the authors of

androgen receptors. So the authors of this paper hypothesized that DHT acts as a competitive agonist with echardial.

Um, I it's hard to, you know, find and uh double check these findings because I've

been looking the last two days for different studies that, you know, kind of perfectly tested this and they're very hard to find. So, um, I I ended up

coming up with a few speculations of my own, which is something I'm going to keep looking into further. But, um,

let's see. Let's see if there's anything else about the study first. Um yeah, the the rats

were given estradile, including the androgen receptor defect mice were able to have

their breast growth offset by the implant of a DHT implant. So Echradile

had no breast growth in those the ones given DHT. So they speculate that how is

given DHT. So they speculate that how is DHT doing this? How is DHT able to prevent breast growth if these rats have a non-functional androgen receptor? And

you know, as we know, DHT has its action or one of them at androgen receptor. So

I uh posed a couple of questions about this which I needed to look into further and um if it was possible could DHT be

working through a membrane bound and receptor if these rats maintain the functional AR and in the membrane was

this test at this time of this study which was 1984 able to detect that and they didn't have the awareness of this

at that time. So, you know, um they certainly wouldn't have been looking for that.

>> Yeah.

>> But, um nonetheless, I tried still to search to find more on this test testicular linked

feminization gene mutation that causes the defective and non-functional androgen receptor is the language they use. But and then I also tried to find

use. But and then I also tried to find exactly through what mechanism is the androgen receptor non-functional like is it does it have a change in the shape where androgens aren't able to bind to

the receptor and connect with it or is it something that happens subsequent to an androgen binding and then downstream something goes wrong that prevents

transcription from occurring. I wasn't

able to find that. It's very challenging to find all that stuff.

>> What's up I found it the receptor generating gene was just didn't work. So

it wasn't able to the genes weren't the DNA was not able to generate and receptors at all.

>> So sorry say that say that again.

>> The g the uh the part of DNA that is responsible for making androgen receptors wasn't there at all. So it

wasn't like androgen separate insensitivity. It was like it didn't

insensitivity. It was like it didn't even have any.

>> See it's like so you were able to confirm that. Okay. Because based on

confirm that. Okay. Because based on like the language used, it says they have defective androgen receptor or nonfunctional >> whereas I know they have other Yeah.

>> Yeah. Let Jay speak. Let's hear what he has to say. No, that's fine. Awesome. Go

ahead, Jay. I want to hear us.

>> I So the uh the way it described the rats was feminized testicles rats. So I

or testicular feminization rat. So I

just looked up what is a testicular feminization rat and they said it's when the androgen receptor gene is broken. So

then the the testicles end up internalizing and it's a feminized rat and then they the testicles are really highly prone to cancer when they're internalized like that.

>> So that was the condition. But I I did scroll down just now and read and it said what's happening is the DHT is preventing estradiols mediated increase and the amount of total progesterone

receptors in the breast >> because I didn't >> Yeah. Were you gonna get to that? Did I

>> Yeah. Were you gonna get to that? Did I

jump ahead?

>> No, no, no. Go ahead. I was but like we got this we got it you know I sent it to you also so you know >> teamwork go ahead go ahead

>> yeah so it's uh it's right above the graph here and it just says DHT prevents the estradile mediated increase in the amount of progesterone receptors and as we know progesterone receptors are crucial for breast development and

apparently estrogen makes makes you have more of them and this is saying that DHT prevented that from occurring >> that's one of the biggest reasons [ __ ] everything up, >> right? And that was so that was kind of

>> right? And that was so that was kind of a totally separate uh conclusion I got to that I learned from this was that you know um apparently that is the model at

least in these rats that estradiol is what's responsible for generating progesterone receptors to to be active.

The number of them actually it says most of them the progesterone receptors in the rats that were castrated and thus deprived of estrogen had all of the

progesterone receptors navigate to the nucle I mean the membrane sorry um >> I just found the name of the m I'm looking it up for you right now

>> the testicular linked feminization >> DC57BLJ mice it's in the very end at the bottom Oh, that of this study.

>> Yeah, look, it's at the it's at the uh the bottom there. It says um it's on the one of the last pages there. It says the the fact that maximum levels of receptors in this experiment were less than half of that of the CBJ mice is

probably a consequence of the genetic background C57 BLJ mice upon which the TA and TFM mutations are carried rather than a consequence of the mutations themselves.

Oh, >> okay. Yeah, I saw that part too. But

>> okay. Yeah, I saw that part too. But

like I guess I still want to see because like I guess I want to know the language I guess that was used to see if it was just an outright

deletion of the AR by having uh lacking the genes that code for an androgen receptor outright or was it like in some other way inactive just because I didn't

read it myself to you know see what they were talking about because I know deletion is a separate thing But I just wanted to like understand correctly that

it wasn't a deletion and that it was a function a functionally defective one.

>> This is actually the mouse they're referring to that they used to breed it to make it have a different color. So

they have mice that are the same and then they take the genetic defect and they also breed it >> with the defect that results in the color of the coat changing so they can tell them apart which is kind of stupid.

Why don't you just [ __ ] use some hair dye? Like why do you have to genetically

dye? Like why do you have to genetically give them different because you're adding another variable guy. Like we

know you're cool. Like did you do that just to impress everybody? Like look at this guys. Instead of just painting it

this guys. Instead of just painting it or like putting a tag on it, I'm gonna like >> cross it so like it grows different colored fur. Pretty cool, huh? Would

colored fur. Pretty cool, huh? Would

have brought to dinner with me. Like I

don't know why they did that. That's

ridiculous. And they also noted that the tabby like that color of the mice that rats sorry I keep saying mice rats that are tabby is like closely linked somehow

to this defect of the androgen receptor too. Did um you guys can keep talking

too. Did um you guys can keep talking and you can keep going with this Jay, but could you point to me where the

part about the the TG TJM or TJF mice have no gen?

>> We got to find that one because this is referring to a different mouse al together here.

>> I see. Well, we can just skip over we could always skip over it too, but um like I guess just at the end of the day that would be one of the questions I

have. So the last thing that you know I

have. So the last thing that you know I posed as one of my questions of this study will reverse and rem like I'll remind

people that they're implying that DHT is binding to the estrogen receptor not activating it and blocking DHT from I

mean sorry DHT is blocking estrogen from doing its thing at the estrogen receptor you know and I wondered uh Jay says he has it but I want to make

sure it's not a deletion and that it is a defective AR like we've talked about in other episodes about the importance

of SHBG and how the SHBG receptor uh increases the level of transcriptional activity of the androgen

receptor when an androgen is bound. So I

am speculating that what if like in the event it's not a full deletion of the AR DHT binds to the SHPG receptor complex

>> and then causes this increase in CAmp that then makes the androgen receptor active again because this study was done in 1984 and the SHBG receptor complex

wasn't known about at this point so they wouldn't have been able to rule it out.

That's why I kept trying to go on and find u more on that to see if the Xlinks Yeah, the Xlink test to secular feminization. Um

feminization. Um >> yeah, it says lack of function lack of functional AR. So I didn't interpret

functional AR. So I didn't interpret that as a deletion.

So yeah, I I still have hope in that case cuz like the lack of a functional AR to me doesn't mean that it's a deletion because deletion is a separate process that they use in these studies

and the experiments. So I'll have to we'll have to learn more on that later.

You know, just like I wanted to possibly look at the the genetic lineage of this test testicular feminization linked rat

and if it's possible to find out whether it has an intact SHBG receptor globulin complex.

>> Um >> okay I'm working on it.

>> Yeah. What do you guys you know does that make sense like what I'm what I'm speculating. So, do you guys understand

speculating. So, do you guys understand the there's the speculation of the authors that DHT is working by blocking the estrogen receptor like a serum.

Right.

>> Right. And then you know I'm going out on a limb obviously but because SHVG receptor complex wasn't known about at

this time um you know what if that's how it gets its activity to work again is by you know DHT being such a potent androgen it has high binding affinity to

SHVG and would activate that receptor a lot. So uh you know maybe that restores

lot. So uh you know maybe that restores action of the androgen receptor and at least in that language I saw there it didn't seem like a deletion you know so it does still seem like there is

androgen receptor architecture there to potentially become active again >> I think the ligan binding is what's broken stuff can't bind to it

>> right so if the SHPG replace that you know maybe nothing needs to bind to that AR anymore like you don't need an androgen androen

receptor if you're able to have, you know, an SHBG bound androgen at the SHBG receptor.

>> Yeah.

>> Total speculation, literally. So,

>> I get what you're saying though, Esen.

Like the >> Yeah, you know, and um have I don't know. I don't have as many experience

know. I don't have as many experience with clients as you, but this is where we take it to the real world. Mhm.

>> Um definitely you can handle this Ryan, but >> is what are the side effects of people with low SHBG? Are they just only hypocanonatal symptoms or could they

possibly have high estrogal symptoms too?

It's a it's a great question and and it's very possible that they're they are experiencing

that as well because you have this um you have this myriad of of uh of effects and you know like ironically

ironically people have similar side effects from low hormones and high hormones and all of them are similar right. So

right. So >> like um low what are the what are the the side effects of low estradile right

it's anxiety uh erectile dysfunction um uh fatigue lethargy right what's the side effects of high estrogen uh anxiety fatigue lethargy erectile dysfunction

>> so they overlap >> yeah like they're all simil like and I'm like one of the things I'm trying to like kind of coax out of people is is it slightly different like and and there

seems to like people really in tune with the themselves can tell if they have if they're having high estrogen or low estrogen side effects, right? So they

might be a little different, but they're similar, right? And especially to the

similar, right? And especially to the novice, like it would be it would be the same. So, like what you're saying is

same. So, like what you're saying is like, yeah, maybe it is. It like the the effects that I get from people with low SHBG, they're having this myriad effects

that kind of um mimics or or appears to be low androgens, but it could very well be high estrogen, too. Like, yeah.

>> Oh, okay. I see what you're saying.

Like, the balance. Is that kind of what you're getting at? The estrogen androgen balance?

>> Yeah. or or the or or a function of um Yeah. Right. Just the imbalance.

Yeah. Right. Just the imbalance.

>> Yeah. Um you know, so I wonder if that's if anyone out there, maybe anyone watching has noticed that. Um, you don't definitely don't placebo yourself into

like trying to make my speculation a valid hypothesis, but I wonder if anyone has noticed that they've had more trouble mitigating gyno when they had

crushed SHBG, like if they remember back in the day when their SHBG was higher, maybe they had an easier time controlling their estrogen. So,

>> yeah, you know, I'll keep an eye out.

I'll ask people, but you got to be try not to leave people.

>> Yeah. Um,

>> how how would this work?

>> Yeah, go ahead and go ahead and read that. I'm going to copy it down.

that. I'm going to copy it down.

>> Um, Dr. Edward Lichen used tool to drop SHBG to control estrogen per what he says.

>> I have to think about that. It sounds in initially at the surface counterintuitive. You would think a drop

counterintuitive. You would think a drop in SHBG frees up more test to aromatize into estrogen, but um yeah,

>> I don't know any other way aside from you're skewing the androgen to estrogen ratio by using a non-arobatizing androgen and that thus controls

>> estrogen by adding sinosol, a non-eromatizing androgen. And then two,

non-eromatizing androgen. And then two, you raise your free testosterone, which is another androgen. So you raise the total androgenicity in the body to control estrogen with the

androgen to estrogen ratio. That's how

it sounds to me.

Th this video by the way was great. Uh

Dr. E Edward Liken was a pioneer of using androgens to prevent infl or to to mitigate inflammatory diseases, right?

And uh >> Wow. And he he found like you know a lot

>> Wow. And he he found like you know a lot of them. And so he was one of the few

of them. And so he was one of the few doctors that like especially he was doing this earlier than most than you know like 10 15 years ago when the entire medical community was was completely against androgens. He was one

of the only ones using them for inflammatory diseases like uh >> like Crohn's disease or um ulcer of colitis and um you know things and he was having the most success treating a

lot of these inflammatory conditions. So

I love Dr. Edward Liken and I did this Dan Abosa podcast is is really great.

It's a great one. Um but very interesting.

>> Is this stuff on YouTube and is he still doing stuff or is he like older and he's gone?

>> He's super old. He has written some papers on this. Um if you look up Dr. Ector Dr. Edward like you I in fact interestingly enough I sent some of his

work to my providers to to kind of help educate them on on the use of anabolics for inflammatory diseases.

>> Oh wow.

>> Was really beneficial. So um I have used some of his work. Yeah

>> that's cool >> that you did that.

>> Yeah. Uh I have this educational platform where where we try to get everybody on the same page, right?

Um, >> yeah, >> the doctors, but you're like the school the doctors go to.

>> Well, I mean, again, you know, again, like we discuss this a lot, too. Like

the there's a there's a fun fundamental foundational problem with the educational providers regarding hormones, they just don't learn about it. Like, you know,

it. Like, you know, >> some of this, as much as we disparage them, like providers in the medical community, this they're taught, they're not taught correctly. And I and I agree like some of the problem lies in the

hubris of some of the providers to think that they they know it all and and everything everything and but in fact you didn't learn about these hormones in medical school. It's not in the

medical school. It's not in the curriculum. Like that's

curriculum. Like that's >> Oh no. Yeah. I didn't mean it in like a disparaging way. I just literally that's

disparaging way. I just literally that's what it is. It's like you have you have this experience.

>> Yeah.

understanding that right understanding that they don't learn about this in medical school that then it makes sense that somebody who's dedicated their life to learning about this and who has

experienced this on a more vast level than any doctor >> would um and that's kind of the some of the providers like you know that that we

choose to partner with is the ones that understand this aspect and and share the vision of of using that. So, um, so

Danny Bos is a candy striper. Um,

uh, so, okay. So, what I was also going to bring up though as well is what we've read on the SHBG receptor mechanism, right, is that, and one of

the studies did point this out that it it seems to depending on what sex hormone binds to the SHBG receptor complex, it has

different effects or it tends to affect more like you know it increases the CMP CAM pKa but it does it say you know

there was no clear denoting of how it does this but it does seem to have an effect depending on which sex hormone binds to it right so

>> but it's more of like a volume thing not >> effect it does for androgens right where when testosterone binds to the SHPG or DHE when an androgen binds to the SHPG

receptor mechanism It specifically um effectuates the efficacy of the genomic effect, right?

The transcription of >> of of testosterone to the androgen receptor, right? Um that transcription.

receptor, right? Um that transcription.

Now, it may be the opposite for estrogen, right? Where so when estrogen

estrogen, right? Where so when estrogen binds to SHVG, it specifically affects the estrogenic effect.

>> Um >> the efficacy of the estrogenic effect. I

mean, that that certainly is kind of insinuated through a lot of these studies. Um but also there's some cross

studies. Um but also there's some cross functionality right so the binding of estrogen to the SHUD can also positively affect the androgen sensitivity right or

the the androgen transcription so >> even though there's some cross you know some cross effects there it seems like there's a lot of so so it's possible

that if so much of the DHT binds all of the SHBG receptor complex because it has the higher highest binding affinity there's

no more SH or estrogen can no longer bind to any more bind to any more SHBG because it's all taken up by DHT. So

then there's no e there's no >> um there's no um increasing the uh the efficacy of the estrogen complex in inside the cell, right? So that's

possible.

>> Very yeah, very interesting idea. Like I

hadn't even thought of that. So that's

Man, this stuff's so complicated, but That's cool. Yeah, that like so

That's cool. Yeah, that like so it's like they're, you know, they're DHT and estradile are duking it out but not >> right

>> at different receptors. They're doing it at like the same receptor, you know.

>> Yeah. So, it's just it's crazy to think about.

>> Yeah.

>> Can you can you pull up the tab called Jay's notes?

>> Sure.

This was the best I could do for you, Austin, and I refined it as much as I could. But let's go ahead and take a

could. But let's go ahead and take a look at this.

>> Oh gosh.

>> Where did you get that picture up there?

>> I don't know. It just appeared.

>> It must have pasted in from something somewhere. I don't know where.

somewhere. I don't know where.

>> I like the color that probably got pasted in from a website.

>> Ah, I love it.

So uh basically they're saying that that um DHT prevents breath growth through direct binding to estrogen receptors and subsequent nuclear transllocation which

sequesters the receptors away from cytoplasmic estradi interactions.

>> All right. But that's that was the author's that was their interpretation.

You know >> if it's coming from that. So we have like going to that source is it is it linking back to the same study because

at least when I search through scholar like that was the only exact study I could find that was uh done with that

methodology. So like basically this

methodology. So like basically this seems like it's another way to say what the authors uh what their hypothesis was to test further and this like thing

about subsequent nuclear transllocation effectively sequestering these receptor like that's just basically talking about the action of

uh estradile binding at its receptor and DHT inhibiting that. So

No, go ahead.

>> Go ahead.

>> It wasn't this. I pulled up one of the other references and I pasted in the >> fix. I'll fix it for you.

>> fix. I'll fix it for you.

>> Yeah. All right.

>> Study on the rat's uterus.

>> Yep.

>> Um, so I just I ripped I ripped this out and I pasted here. That's going to be hard as [ __ ] to read. Um, actually I can I have a little trick here. I can paste the formatting onto it.

>> I can only take me a minute to fix that.

little paint roller icon. Yeah, there

was a hot key for it that I already forgot.

>> Stand by, guys. I apologize. Let me do this here so you don't have to watch me work.

>> I think I got it. I just had to get the paint roller to work. Now it matches.

>> I got it. It's all set. We're good.

>> All right.

>> Okay.

>> So, in immature rat uterus, high concentrations of androgens competed specifically with estradiol on the estrogen receptor. In this competition

estrogen receptor. In this competition with stereospaccific for C19 steroids that bear a 17 beta or three hydroxal group very low affinity such as testosterone could not compete with

estradile at equilibrium but it decreased the association rate of estradiol on its receptor. High doses of five five dihydrotestosterone which is

DHT provoked invivo as in vitro the nuclear transllocation of re the nuclear receptor thus formed displayed the same sedimentation constant as they induced by estradiol.

We conclude that the weak affinity binding of androgens to estrogen receptors are sufficient to induce its nuclear transllocation and vivo provided that androgen concentration is high enough to occupy the estradile binding

site. Conversely, progesterone does not

site. Conversely, progesterone does not bind re could not provoke its nuclear transllocation. So, this is more this is

transllocation. So, this is more this is just another study where they concluded that DHT is powerful enough that it can actually move an estrogen receptor where

it can't be bound up. And that doesn't it's the only thing that's happening.

So, this doesn't negate anything you're saying. It's just saying this is a thing

saying. It's just saying this is a thing that an androgen can do, >> right? And um I did see that too in the

>> right? And um I did see that too in the study that I'm pulling from because they mentioned uh MCF7 cells uh that in a

different study a group of different authors were able to demonstrate that at high enough concentrations, DHT was able to have effect on the NCF7 cells, which

is a type of breast cancer cell line.

and DHT when it was like high high levels was able to actually cause the same growth that was able to. So

in this study to uh test this themselves, they gave both of the groups of rats DHT only

without estradile at high high doses to see if they could induce breast growth with DHT because like they thought if in the other study they were able to do it

in the MCS7 line with high doses of DHT that maybe they could stimulate breast test growth with DHT also, but they failed to do that

>> here. So, I think, you know, uh I'm not

>> here. So, I think, you know, uh I'm not going to I'm definitely not going to form an opinion on this uh action at every possible site and every tissue

>> because, you know, this could certainly be true. But I just think uh I I this is

be true. But I just think uh I I this is just my opinion. I would lean towards in the breast tissue example that um it's probably working through some other way

especially because of the high concentration required to achieve it at least in the breast tissue.

But this is this is interesting though because uh I didn't even know until we started looking at this that this was a

phenomena that happens that androgens at these high high concentrations start can even act like estrogen.

>> So you know like this is definitely new to me and it's very >> I don't think it's saying it's acting like estrogen. I think it's saying that

like estrogen. I think it's saying that it's moving the the nuclear receptor away, transllocating it so the estrogen can't get to it. It's like it's hiding >> but it's not I guess I mean it's like

acting in that it's binding to the receptor or it has some sort of affinity to the receptor.

>> Yeah. Like they note very like see here very low affinity lians such as t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t testosterone not compete with estradiol at equilibrium but decrease the

association rate of estradile on its receptor. So the association rate is

receptor. So the association rate is the rate in which estradile molecules bind onto their receptors.

So DHT th this is a the stere this is a stereotypical agonist antagonist effect that they're talking about.

>> So um you know the the fact that it can do it might not cause uh estrogen like action in every tissue. Uh but at least

in that uh like the study I was pulling from like they mentioned that other study where in the breast cancer cells the MCF7 they the DHT was able to act like

estrogen just straight out. So that's

very new to me.

>> Very very interesting. So

>> what all this Yeah. What all this highlights is that is just the complexity in all this. Right. So when

we have an action of any hormone and we're always trying to say okay Ro is trying to define how did how did that effect occur right and the fact is not

only is it super complex through multitude of mechanisms it could be a bunch of these mechanisms all kind of coalesing and coming together to create this overarching effect and it doesn't

come from one place right so it's like >> that's a >> yeah and like it's different and different tissues too even. So

>> yeah, this kind of leads to why this is so confusing.

>> Yeah, that's uh excuse me here from Mike Her on the Mike Horner project. Uh when

he's on he's on prep uh DHT gets super high. He runs no AI uh high doses of uh

high. He runs no AI uh high doses of uh >> must DHT I'm sorry. DHT derivatives SHBG is always crushed but never has g. Uh, so

anecdotally the theory checks out at least for Mike.

>> Thank you Mike.

>> Interesting sharing that.

>> Thanks for that input.

>> It's a great picture.

>> Fantastic.

>> Oh yeah. But that's cool. He's tested

his DHT. Um, nobody not many people check that. It's like a $150 test. So

check that. It's like a $150 test. So

people skip.

>> Mike's the real deal, man. He's the real deal. I was watching one of his videos.

deal. I was watching one of his videos.

He drives really far to get his DEXA scan. like

scan. like >> he drives really far all the time.

>> He's talking about all these gyms he belongs to, but he has to work out the why because that's where they they'll let him film. But he'll drive like four hours to a gym. I was like, what the [ __ ] Are you insane?

>> Four I hate driving 15 20 minutes to the gym. It's like I want one right here in

gym. It's like I want one right here in my house. That's it.

my house. That's it.

>> That would be sweet.

>> And what he just said there actually is cool. He just added me on Instagram. We

cool. He just added me on Instagram. We

I followed him back too. We haven't

talked yet, but I could have I've seen he's been on here. I've watched him and uh >> I know he's uh done stuff with Paul, too. So,

too. So, >> he's in Vegas now. He actually met up with Aaron Burke. I saw him on IG.

>> That's pretty wild.

>> Mike, did you guys plan that or did you actually literally bump into him at the gym?

>> You could answer me in the chat. That'd

be cool.

>> We wanted to have Mike and Austin on together um for a cannabis episode. I

think that'd be a blast.

>> Yeah, that's right. We mentioned that. I

forgot about that.

>> Oh, that was him. Oh, cool. I would

totally do that.

>> A licensed grower also. Yeah.

>> Oh, wow.

>> He still grows now, I think. Right.

>> Um I wish.

>> Okay.

>> But um what what he said too, if his DHT is going up in prep, that's something that Dr. Todd Lee has alluded to or meant actually said outright that um

when he uses primo uh his DHT goes up from the same dose of test like his his DHT level maxes out at

say I don't remember what he said but X level of DHT with just testosterone when he adds a DHT derivative his

sensitive DHT is able to go up.

Yeah, the higher. So, because you know we speculating that you close off the aromatization lane, you force more tests down the five alpha reductase lane.

>> Makes sense.

>> Yeah.

>> So, that would support that. You know

what Mike said. That's cool.

>> I got another study we can look at if you guys want.

>> Sure.

>> Yeah. This is where they they tried to use DHT cream instead of testosterone for TRT. So these were hop old people

for TRT. So these were hop old people >> and they just gave them DHST cream instead of testosterone and then they evalu for six months and they evaluated a few parameters. Um I put the link

directly over where you were just at. So

if you go back to the Jay's note tab again, I deleted everything in there. I

replaced it.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah, I saw you doing it while I was in there.

>> Yeah. Early morning erections improved transiently in the DHT group at three months of treatment and the ability to maintain erection improved in the DHT

group compared with the placebo group.

>> Interesting.

>> Yeah. So people following along these people were not given any testosterone at all and this probably shut their HPTA down more. So this is a instance where

down more. So this is a instance where people have no estrogen or like low estrogen, low tea, but they're just on straight up DHT. I I did a search on the dose they use and it said this should

have been a super physiological dose because this is 120 to 50 250 milligrams of DHT cream a day. So that's pretty

that's a pretty good amount of DHT.

>> I'd say bioavailability on that like 10% or is it 20?

>> Depends on where they rub it. It's like

>> so it's like using 12 to 25 milligrams of DHT injected approximately. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's really cool to see was that they said they measured prostate with transactal ultra sonography

and a uh they said the prostate weight PSA did not change.

>> So let that sink in. They were on straight up nothing but DHT and their prostates did not even change.

>> Yeah.

>> Not bigger, not smaller.

>> Matic only went up two points.

Um, hemoglobin barely changed 14 to 15.

>> That's cool. And I think like that makes sense too because I'm pretty sure I'm not that familiar with this at all. It's

super unknown area for me, but I think estradiol was somehow involved in prostate weight growth too. So that

would make sense if they were just given DHT. It would lower the LH and FSH, thus

DHT. It would lower the LH and FSH, thus lowering S, thus lowering E2. So, you

know, >> it's more >> see how this would be the case.

>> Proving the stigmatization that that DHT is the sole driver of prostate, you know, prostate problems is just kind of >> it's just [ __ ] >> Oh, yeah. That's right. I forgot people

still think that. Like that's been >> debunked at this point.

>> Yeah.

>> Most BPH cases are not even confirmed with imaging. They're just like, "Oh, have

imaging. They're just like, "Oh, have trouble go pee pee me give you finasteride." Like they don't even they

finasteride." Like they don't even they have machines for that. You can test it.

That they don't >> That's what their dumb little book says.

Patient can't take pee. Oh, wake up to PP. Okay.

PP. Okay.

>> I love J here. Have some.

[ __ ] yourself.

>> Oh god. I I look back on my past when I because I had BPH symptoms for over 10 years because I had low tea.

>> I could have easily been a victim and my life could have been ruined.

>> If I had trusted doctors, my life would have been ruined.

>> I have I have all kinds of people who who have are losing hair, have a lot of hair loss, and it's the low testosterone. So, we give them

testosterone. So, we give them testosterone, all their hair grows back.

It >> could be either one. Like, when I was on 200 milligrams a week, my hair was shedding in in piles. Yeah.

>> It was horrifying. I was like whimpering in the shower like, "Is this really happening? What the [ __ ] Oh my god.

happening? What the [ __ ] Oh my god.

>> Then when I drop down to 100 milligrams a week, I can't even get it to come out.

Like it will not move. I have nothing on my hand in the shower. It's done.

>> There's it can happen. But I wouldn't say that's DHT's fault. It's

complicated, you know.

>> Um >> yeah, I'm not the hair loss guy at all, but I think there's like there's um androgenic alopecia and then there's

like uh something where it's collagen and fluvium. That's it. Where

it's like a short-term shedding from like hormonal changes or or stresses.

>> Um >> yeah, Jay actually talked about that before.

>> Mhm.

>> What causes what we don't have to go deep down this, but is there like one general cause for the teligen ofluvium?

>> Well, in this case, it wouldn't be ten ofium. There was another word for it. We

ofium. There was another word for it. We

already forgot because I only looked at it once, but basically like uh oh my god, look who it is. Dr. filming time.

That guy's awesome.

>> Great to see you.

>> Great guy.

>> Great time and a great show. Thanks for

coming by, bro.

>> Oh my god.

>> Yeah, he's a lot of fun. I What did he say though? I didn't I got too

say though? I didn't I got too distracted.

>> Oh yeah, I know. I didn't even read what he said. He said, "I better late than

he said. He said, "I better late than never. Great topic. Wish I could have

never. Great topic. Wish I could have caught it sooner."

>> No worries, dude.

>> Well, like essentially like the hair shedding from androgens could happen for pushing pushing it through the antigen collagen phase faster, right? So you're

just you're pushing it through these phases faster. So not only your hair is

phases faster. So not only your hair is shedding, but it's also growing faster.

>> Yes. Because the when the cycles go around, they go quicker. And so the the less time you spend an antigen, the less time the follicles are growing.

>> And then the longer they spend in a resting phase, then the more they're going to atrophy and that can lead to miniaturaturization because they're they're not growing as long and they're resting for longer. So you can be

shedding because shit's going into the resting phase.

>> So yeah, there's there's a lot going on there.

>> Yeah.

>> But there is a definitive difference between hair loss and hair shedding, right? And usually the hair is being

right? And usually the hair is being replaced even though >> I don't think I've had either. Like so

yeah, as to what what Mike said in the chat, like I uh I like to say that I would sacrifice the hairs on the top of my head to the to the muscle gods, too.

But I I can't be saying that here and sounding so cocky when I haven't lost really any of it. So if it started going, I don't actually I can't say I

know what I would do, you know? Uh

>> yeah, once once it started going, you just shave that [ __ ] You get you probably got a nice round head.

>> I I used to shave my head all the time, like just go by choice. So

>> but yeah. Oh man, so much hair on my back though on my chest.

>> It grows everywhere I put your head, right?

>> Yeah. I never had anybody here at all before but >> you do now.

>> Yeah. Yes.

>> So, I think this, you know, this study with the DHT improved erectile function in in seniors when we just gave them DHT and it shows that and I see this too,

like a lot of like that's one of my in my analog or uh in my uh what's the word I'm looking for? um

in in the the steps I try, the strategies I try for people with erectile dysfunction, one of them is increasing DHT because that works for a lot of people. And so it kind of defines

that there's inside the blood vessels there are and receptors, right? And

agonizing these and receptors releases NO2 and allows for dilation of blood vessels. So, so DHT um really does, you

vessels. So, so DHT um really does, you know, with a high binding affinity really does affect these andigen receptors inside the blood vessels.

>> Yeah.

>> Pet on here. I want to ask some questions.

>> Hello everybody. This is Max. He's 18.

>> Holy.

>> Wow.

>> What protocol do you have on?

>> Um looking at you like don't tell them.

>> Yeah. felazol. So, it's an anti-T4 >> uh more like antagonist >> or or it stops TSH because uh cats get

hyperyroidism when they get older. So,

>> that's amazing.

>> That's his regimen as of now.

>> Good.

>> He looks good and healthy. Actually, I

had a cat that was like 20 years old once.

>> Yeah. Yeah, they go.

>> Mhm.

All right. Um, Austin, did you have any more? We keep going on tangents. That's

more? We keep going on tangents. That's

what we do on this channel. We're just

going on tangents.

>> We went through No, we went through uh that, you know, the only study and then the subsequent questions and speculations I had from that. So, we

went through all that. I mean, there's stuff uh, you know, I didn't really get like that I didn't totally cover the other times that we had talked about covering. So, um, you know, if we need

covering. So, um, you know, if we need that, I could of course go on about that. But,

that. But, >> and also, uh, everybody in the audience, if you have questions, uh, please go ahead, drop them in the chat. We got

Austin here. He loves talking. Uh, he

loves answering questions. And, uh, we have Ryan here who likes to answer as well. So, uh, if you drop those, we'll

well. So, uh, if you drop those, we'll flag them. We'll get to them. I I do

flag them. We'll get to them. I I do have a qu before we carry on. Uh,

Austin, we uh, switch gears here. I do

have a question for you if I can find it. Just give me one moment. Actually, I

it. Just give me one moment. Actually, I

don't know if it's for you. It might be.

You can answer. Everybody could take a stab at it. Uh, how low does one's SHBG level need to be in order to get more DHT benefits? Specifically for more

DHT benefits? Specifically for more masculine characteristics minus 16 nanomles per liter.

Um, currently still not satisfied with my characteristics. I'm going to go

my characteristics. I'm going to go ahead and put this in the chat so you guys could read it.

Yeah, I think I read this one before, but go you you go ahead.

>> There you go.

>> So, what this sounds to me like is someone's provider is [ __ ] them over >> and this per and this is what happens when your provider screws you over. You

end up trying to find sidstepping methods to try and get the care you needed in the first place. This poor

this poor person is being underdosed so severely they're trying to take their own SHPG just to get more free androgens. shame on their doctor. This

androgens. shame on their doctor. This

is revoling. Um but anyways, I would say what they're trying to do is they're trying to look more masculine >> and their doctor doesn't know how to do that.

>> Yeah.

>> So, but what you need to be more DHT is the primary driver of masculinity. Like

it's decreasing estrogen's activity as we talked about earlier >> and it's and it's like it's it's even in the atapost tissue level. It is really helping to get rid of subcutaneous fat

and feminine areas. uh DHT is what this person needs. They want to look

person needs. They want to look >> all androgens. All androgens do that when there's enough of them. But

>> DH, but DHT that >> really hits that androen receptor a lot harder than testosterone does in ways like what we saw with that study where it said testosterone was inadequate to

mess with estrogen, but DHT could. Like

DHT and other androgens are in that level that can do that. So, you're

right. It's not just DHT, but like um oxandolone can do it. It's pretty good atapost um destruction in those in subcutaneous areas. So

that's what this person does not need to lower their SHBG. What they need is more androgens.

>> Yeah, they've been >> I would encourage them to get another doctor or come to hormones for me immediately like like right now.

>> They've been erroneously they have the erroneous thought that SHBG is the enemy in this case and it's it's really not.

You think so?

>> I think they're testing. I think they're just looking for solutions to make up for their low dose.

>> Right. You said is exactly correct, Jay.

>> They've been taught that well, in order to get your androgens or DHT up, you have to get your SHVG down. And that's

just not the way. We just that's not the way. SHVG is very important. So, we just

way. SHVG is very important. So, we just need to get your androgens up. That's

what we have to do.

>> Specifically, the really strong ones.

And um I don't >> I'm gonna echo that same answer.

>> Nice.

>> This next >> Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

>> We got a super chat here.

>> From Terrence, thank you so much, bro.

Really appreciate super chat proviron.

Yay or nay as a TRT add-on. Any

experiences using it?

>> So, I'll take I'll take it. Sorry. You

go. Um Okay. Um, I think the best obvious use for Pervy on TRT is like you just started TRT and um, your SHBG is

still high and it's not coming down.

Like Ryan with uh, Cortex Labs, Ryan last week mentioned he has a guy who's got like a 80 SHBG still and he's been

on TRT and raising the do the dose just isn't knocking it down. So I think that's like perfect for proviron but like we've been talking about here SHPG

has a sweet spot and uh it seems like when you drop it below a certain point especially for certain people you lose out on many of the benefits you want out

of androgens. So if the proviron use is

of androgens. So if the proviron use is done in a way that it doesn't crush your SHBG, I would say if it's optimizing your SHPG where you feel better, then

it's good. But I wouldn't say it's an

it's good. But I wouldn't say it's an automatic add-on. It's highly case

automatic add-on. It's highly case dependent.

>> Before we move on, Christian Garcia, that question that just come join the Discord and we can we can talk with you a bit more to help you out because I think I know what you're trying to do.

>> I want to take this other guy's question, too. with this AB.

question, too. with this AB.

>> Yeah, we're gonna do that here. Uh

>> yeah, so Jay Jay just wanted to mention, yeah, come on and check out the Discord for uh that Christian question. Um and

uh a lot of people there can help you out, especially Jay. Uh Austin, uh do you find that secondary sexual characteristics continue to develop if

one is running EV primo? Uh no DHT example, no DHT. So yes, like I have actually I've gotten almost all of my

masculineization verilization side effects while not using test at all. So

having no DHT and um specifically my voice uh I have recordings here I could show but my voice completely changed when I added in

Nandrallone to testosterone for the first time and it actually seemed like Nanderlone caused me to develop the most body hair

uh and deepen my voice the most. So I

actually think like >> I got more masculineiz masculinizing effects from the fact that nandrallone is just a much stronger androgen or a

stronger androgen than testosterone and even if um it's got a very weak metabolite. I think you can it depends

metabolite. I think you can it depends on the dose you're running but depending on the dose is able to

uh compensate for its metabolizing to DHN that's a weak androgen >> because DH because nandelone itself is stronger it causes more

uh masculineization so yes like even with estradiol and no test i.e no DHD. I

still was able to get a lot of masculineization. Um, here I'll play it

masculineization. Um, here I'll play it a little. Here's a voice of me testing

a little. Here's a voice of me testing it. I just happened to have a recording

it. I just happened to have a recording back in the day of me saying 1, two, three four five.

>> So, I tried to repeat it again at the same volume as close as I could get. So,

um, here's here's that.

>> One, two, three. One, two, three. Okay.

So that's current.

>> One, two, three.

>> [ __ ] >> That's crazy.

>> One, two, three.

>> One, two.

>> One, two, three.

>> No way.

>> Two, three, four.

>> Yep.

>> That is wild.

>> So that was mostly with Nanderlone.

>> Yep. I had the exact same experience.

>> Nanderlone gave me a flock.

>> Really?

>> That's crazy.

>> I'm sure trend too, but I used Deca first, so like I kind of got as much change as I was going to get out of it.

>> Pretty neat.

>> People People heard that.

>> Ah, he was asking about Primo E2 specifically though.

Um I still think primo could cause it. I

um I actually I've gotten hairier on my body when I've run just uh primo with estradiol phases.

>> Okay.

>> So >> yeah, everyone says that nandelone is female safe because of this the androgenic ratio that takes into account its metabolite, but I call [ __ ] as [ __ ] on that.

>> I'm still open to it >> if the dose is kept like very low. I

just think the effects might be more detrimental when you go too high. But

I'm not I I I think you might still be right on that actually. But I've heard somebody like who's seems pretty knowledgeable at least say that like

it's a factor of the dose. So this is why in the real world it happens like nandalone causes a lot of masculinization in women. But uh if you keep the dose low

>> I would ask why even take it then? Like

if you're gonna run it low, then you should probably take something else.

>> I think it's still >> Yeah. I don't know.

>> Yeah. I don't know.

>> To warm your legs, use a blanket. Don't

use fire.

>> Same benefits for for women that it doesn't it does reduce joint pain and everything even in very low doses for for >> really. Okay.

>> really. Okay.

>> Yeah. So I I have seen >> that's what I was wondering if you could even take a high enough dose to get the joint pain relief.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So I have seen it be beneficial for for females. Um in fact uh interestingly enough I have a patient coming aboard

who a female patient who had a provider prescribing testosterone and then the providers um not uh able to do that anymore. So she came and wanted and

anymore. So she came and wanted and wanted to know if we could do nulone for her because it works so well and it doesn't it works so much better than um testosterone.

So she was to do just nandalone only she would take no testosterone and just >> dandelone and it worked >> how much of a dose like about would that be?

>> Yeah, I think uh she I mean she was still only taking like 10 to 20 milligrams of dandrallin per week >> like she's just replacing the test for the nandrin is all she >> Yeah.

>> Where does five milligrams of test per week fall for a woman? Is that like all the way on the bottom? It's just too low of a dose for most females.

>> No. Okay.

>> It's just too low. I mean, for some females, they would notice something. A

lot of females wouldn't notice anything from that. Um, I start females at 10 and

from that. Um, I start females at 10 and then titrate up from there. Most women

feel the best around 20 20 to 30 milligrams. >> What kind of total does a 10 result in?

It depends on the female, but I would say it anywhere from a hund 100 a little over 100 to I guess I've seen even 10

bring some females up to a little over 200.

>> Really? 200? Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's just crazy how they the females process >> cuz I have a Yeah. I have somebody who I'm looking over who's on five and their

total tea is like 131 last I checked.

>> That's pretty good.

>> Was that that was on a trough?

>> Um >> also understand >> I don't actually I I have to check on that. But

that. But >> females process testosterone much more slowly. That's why like like I've seen

slowly. That's why like like I've seen 50 milligrams a week for a few months straight bring women over a thousand.

Wow. That's because they process it more slowly. So when you take 50 milligrams a

slowly. So when you take 50 milligrams a week, it builds on top of each other.

And you can see it through the blood work like slowly just rise. And then

when this female started to get some side effects because this is what happened, right? And I've seen this a

happened, right? And I've seen this a couple times. The same exact scenario.

couple times. The same exact scenario.

I've probably seen it five or six times.

>> Um a female will start a dose, they don't feel anything at the 10 milligrams. So without telling me, they just start increasing. And then all of a sudden one day, like three months later,

they're like, "Okay, I'm having side effects. It's way too much." Why? What

effects. It's way too much." Why? What

happened? Then they tell me, "Well, I'm on 50 and I've been doing that for a month." I'm like, "Why did you get up to

month." I'm like, "Why did you get up to 50? When did we decide that?"

50? When did we decide that?"

>> So, I just kept increasing the dose. And

then, and then they were like, and then like two months into it, I felt great.

>> And so, I just kept staying on the 50 milligrams because I felt great for a while and then all a sudden it was just way too much, right? And then they'll I'll tell them, "Okay, we'll stop taking it. We got to wait for it to come back

it. We got to wait for it to come back down." And it takes like a month later,

down." And it takes like a month later, their their level's still like three or 400 right?

>> Oh, wow. I wonder if their higher SHBG is acting like an Esther almost because like >> and well, at that level too, like a lot

of a lot of times their their SHBG isn't super high. Um, oh,

super high. Um, oh, >> but but uh so I mean what I've learned from a lot of experience is that females process testosterone cipionate much more slowly than men. So you have to be aware

of that. It's like their halflife for

of that. It's like their halflife for testosterone supernate is more like one to two weeks whereas men it's like two to four days, right?

>> So you have to be aware of that.

Okay, we got uh some questions here in the chat that I'd like to get to if you guys don't mind.

Started popping up on me here. Uh we

have uh from our member quas. All right.

Would there be any drawbacks of someone doing test cream transcrotally as monotherapy for TRT converting too much of the test into DHT?

It could be for some people, but a that's like a lot of the like, you know, in the 90s when you heard about people doing transermal TRT, they would the known way you did it

was to take it on the scrotum. So that

was like the most popular way to do it at one point, I think.

>> Yeah. And and it's perfectly fine for most people, but there are people who Yeah. you get and I've seen this before

Yeah. you get and I've seen this before who get too much DHT and that that creates this anxiety and revved up feeling that that's how they a lot of

them describe it revved up feeling where it's a little uncomfortable for them. Um

so you know I've seen it but but others it actually that's a huge benefit because they do really well on and increased DHD. put it directly on your

increased DHD. put it directly on your shaft also because we have seen studies showing it make it's like really good for the health of your uh your stuff and it can actually regenerate like problem

fix problems and improve erectile function and like undo >> like I'd have to get the link for you maybe I'll post on the discord but they were showing people that had ED because

of structural problems when they when they put cream directly on it was like able to fix problems and give them a normal function again which was totally different than serum levels because this

is like a highly concentrated >> dose directly to the tissue and it and it feels like miracle for them. So if

you're having >> no issues in the brain but you're having issues in the anatomy, you could try test cream directly on it.

>> You would make sense because I mean with the DHT cream applied directly to the glandular tissue was super effective.

>> So it just makes sense here too. And

even so the DHT >> Jay showed us studies of people who actually had micro penises and they were able because of because of stunted

stunted growth from like Calman syndrome or or other you know other syndromes where they're not producing the amount of testosterone that they should. So

therefore they had stunted genital growth from when they were developing.

Well, even as adults, they were able to put testosterone and cream directly on the the penis, and it was actually able to grow some of the actually grow. It

was actually able to grow a little bit.

>> Did a protocol on that?

>> Oh, he didn't.

>> Oh, thank God.

>> Yeah, he was Well, he did a protocol with DHT cream looking to see if he had any increases, and he it was a pretty uh in-depth protocol that he did for quite

some time. Uh it was the gains were

some time. Uh it was the gains were minor. Uh he said, you know, nothing

minor. Uh he said, you know, nothing like worth writing home about, but there were some games.

>> I didn't either from it. So

>> yeah, >> for every all the work he had to do, they were very very minimal to the point where he was like it wasn't worth it.

>> Yeah.

>> These studies were on people that were deficient and they had a >> Oh, yeah. No, I know you guys went on dates and girls are like, "All right, I really like you. Let's have

some fun." And then the pants come down.

like, "Oh, you poor thing. Bless your

heart. What? What's wrong?" You know, and it's like, "It's so bad." Like, I think for them, it would probably be a dramatic difference. And it might even

dramatic difference. And it might even get them to the point where they can have a normal relationship without that >> weight on their shoulders of he thinks it's tiny.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> You know, >> that's completely different than what Steve was doing.

>> Yeah. So, I think that should be standard of care because it's not.

>> There's nowhere in the standard of care that says if someone has a micro penis, you you give them test cream. That's

it's not a thing.

>> It should be. Yeah.

>> And it should be, especially in kids.

>> Yeah.

>> Because it's not fair. These do these heartless monsters are just like, "Oh, you're going to grow up with a one cimeter penis. Oh, I don't care.

cimeter penis. Oh, I don't care.

>> It's not in my It's not in my playbook to do that, so I'm not going to do it."

>> When we have studies showing you could you could give that kid >> enough size where he could actually have penetrative sex >> as you're not helping them. M

>> and not that I recommend this, but 1,000 milligrams of Trenmbbolone with estradiol seems to be just as effective at doing that. So,

not that they should do that.

Now, let me ask you this, Austin, real quick. When you're running these high

quick. When you're running these high doses of androgens, especially Trent, do you have you have like what some people would call delayed ejaculation or just can't come at all straight up?

>> Like you could just go forever literally.

>> No. Like uh well, yeah. No. Like no.

>> No. That's never happened.

>> If anything, it was like when I was natural that >> you were natural, you had that problem.

Okay.

>> Yeah. Yep. You really are an outlier.

That's not >> somebody who reacts really well to androgens, folks. That's what it looks

androgens, folks. That's what it looks like.

>> Like really, really crazy.

>> Like I don't feel anything from that except for like the 19 Norris.

Like I do get the what seems to be like the progesterone progesterone related side effects like or what people say are the >> like the

like shift to emotions or libido for example like that. I can detect there's something. But if I'm just taking like

something. But if I'm just taking like 3,000 milligrams of Baldinone or even 100 milligrams of Halo, um I don't notice anything from those.

>> Wow, that's amazing.

>> That's great.

>> Okay, we got uh quite a few questions here in the chat. Let me take our member questions first and uh we'll start with uh Zodiac.

Oh, that's not even a question. He's

just letting us know that the vibes are anabolic tonight. Uh, thanks Zodiac.

anabolic tonight. Uh, thanks Zodiac.

We're gonna because I know we have other ones in here.

>> Zionic's been great. We really

appreciate you, Zionic.

>> Zionic, what did I say?

>> Oh, yeah. Before we get too carried away from the, uh, female topic, Ruben Baka is asking here, >> uh, how old was the female taking Nanderlone and do you remember how much estrogen she took and were there were

they injections?

>> Yeah, it's a great question. So the this female specifically um she took it when she years ago like probably actually

10 to 15 years ago and she was not taking any just an angel she didn't have to take any estrogen and and you know there's no for females there's not a negative feedback loop for testosterone

and estrogen production um so you can take estrogen and your your or testosterone and your estrogen doesn't reduce at all. So you can take nandelone in your estrogen. It's not like men where we need to take

um testosterone with nandulone or we at least need to substitute estrogen because it will shut off.

>> No, that that's not that's not true.

>> For what?

>> There when if a woman takes estrogen, LH and FSH go down. Still

>> if a woman takes estrogen. Yeah. Not not

>> or an androgen or or a testosterone too.

It just takes like >> it it does not affect their estrogen production. Testosterone doesn't. Not

production. Testosterone doesn't. Not

not universally. Now, I'm not gonna say there isn't an individual case where it happened, >> but >> yeah, I I would assume like that's because or like Yeah, I like challenge

you on it, but like I you know, I've heard like you know, if given long enough like from people I've talked to like and on long enough and on high

enough of a dose like you will lose your period just like birth control and it will only come back when you uh either

remove the anabolic or yeah that's like the only time that it'll start again. But like it's like when you think about the doses most females take like if they're taking um

10 milligrams of test or an 10 milligrams of anavar a day or 10 milligrams of test a week um >> that might be just below like >> right

>> the amount to therapeutic doses right so yeah if that's >> so then you taught me something then in that case so >> yeah if you have a body of female like yeah and you take high doses bandages

for a long period of time yes it will screw up their you know, they're >> really >> But so like in a phys like in a TRT HRT setting,

>> it really isn't enough.

>> No.

>> Wow. So, okay.

>> Well, we're making a specul we're making a here >> that the androgens interrupting the ministration isn't is because of impacts on estrogen and progesterone.

>> May not be.

>> Why are we doing that though? Um, did we have lab work that showed that or is there actually a case that maybe the androgens are so anabolic that the uterine lining is being impacted from

the androgens such that they don't break down? Yeah, that's actually what I what

down? Yeah, that's actually what I what I what I would say is more the reason because I mean even at if we give a therapeutic dose of testosterone again

the females are getting up to 200 testosterone level of 200 or so and and there's no impact on the estradiol level from and I have vast amount of experience from that

>> um now there like there does seem to be some issue with the interruption of the of the cycle um especially the higher the the dose

and it could be something more like what Jay just said. Now usually the cycle is interrupt and it is not interrupted with therapeutic doses but sometimes it like delays a little bit and then their cycle

changes um just changes timing. Um I've

seen that before but not always. Usually

it usually the cycle isn't affected at all either for the therapeutic doses.

Now bodybuilders is different. And when

we start when we start taking really high doses like things change.

>> Wow that's so crazy to me to learn.

>> Um so anyways >> sorry the the question so the question the original question is like so how about Neandelone right? So um this female that

Neandelone right? So um this female that we're talking about okay I did have an extended conversation with her so I did find this information out when she was first taking theone. It was like 10 10

years ago or so. Um she was not taking any estradiol. Um just nandelone. That's

any estradiol. Um just nandelone. That's

it. And it was really effective. She's

tried taking just testosterone in the inter room and it just doesn't have the effects that it does. And it's mainly because especially because um we were

talking about um Dr. Edward Likton and he specifically did she she has an inflammatory disease like specifically uh not only is it joint pain but she had it was either Crohn's disease or celiac

disease that it really helped this nandrallin really helped and Dr. Edward Liken showed that some of these anabolics specifically like nandrone and

stanzol really helped these inflammatory diseases like more so than than other other androgens or any other any other um treatment that they had. So he was

using it specifically for her and she said it not only did it it might have been was it arthritis? It might man I can't remember but specifically it really helped her um inflammatory

disease. I can't remember which one she

disease. I can't remember which one she had. Um but it also just she just you

had. Um but it also just she just you know not only did it help her inflammatory disease but it she just felt so much better. She did not get these dramatic effects with just

testosterone.

So she was just using Angela. to answer

um Ruben's question, she's older now and I think she's had gone into menopause.

So, the possibility of us having to add Nandalone and estrogen is probable. I

haven't we haven't started treating her yet, but we will. We I think uh I think she's on my list to to give a consultation to.

So I posted >> this study is about super physiological doses of testosterone impairing the expression and distribution of stero sex

steroid receptors in the endometrium.

It's a rat study, but it's like showing that the androgens can interrupt the signaling and there and so basically what I'm I think we should actually put

this topic on pause and this might make for a good topic because it's looking like >> both of you could be right and there could be different situations because um this is some complicated [ __ ] and I'm

getting a lot of studies here.

>> Yeah. No, I wasn't I I Yeah, I mean certainly I think what Austin is saying is is true. Like it interrupts cycles, right? It interrupts female cycles. But

right? It interrupts female cycles. But

>> I I know. Well, no. I was thinking like I was so shocked cuz I was just mind blown by that. Like I've like conditioned into my mind at least

>> uh that you know any dose you take it doesn't matter. You're shut down. Like

doesn't matter. You're shut down. Like

it doesn't matter. Like let's say you replace a man with 20 milligrams a week.

it's enough to shut them down, but it's going to be lower than that. I um you know thought the same was true for women. And then like the bit I've looked

women. And then like the bit I've looked into it, you know, I like I saw, you know, the LH and FSH get suppressed too,

>> but I don't know enough of the specifics to see if like at what dose this occurs, if it occurs at the same dose as with a male or

>> um I just assume that they worked like how birth control works, you know, like because that is how hormonal birth control works is by >> providing negative feedback. back

through being a progesterine and an estrogen.

>> Yeah. And that's correct.

>> Estrogen Yeah. If you end estrogen, progesterone does affect the endogenous production, but testosterone doesn't for for females. Now, you know, obviously

for females. Now, you know, obviously for males, if you give them, it does shut down.

>> Um.

>> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah. So, that like that was just mind-blowing to me. So, that that was where my strong reaction comes from.

>> The negative feedback loop is not the same for females.

So, it's it's got to be much less sensitive in that case.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'm seeing that it is that it is a thing.

>> But but I think the thing is women have a little different situation because they've got ovaries and adrenal glands and they're getting a lot of hormones from DHEA and there's a lot of enzymes involved.

>> Yeah.

>> So, even if the HPTA is being suppressed a bit, there's still other other ways to get some hormones. I mean I can show you studies that well I the first thing is I

can show you just a few decades of evidence that that their their estrogen and progesterone is not affected by testosterone alone again in therapeutic doses and I can also show you a study

that shows that there appears to be no >> no no effect of from testosterone and estrogen and progesterone production >> the studies I'm showing they are using

the word super physiological and also you got to think too it's harder to check an estrogen level for a female too, unless she's shut down completely and after menopause cuz like the level

can vary from like >> 70 picrograms per milliliter to 350 >> right >> all in one month. Mhm.

>> So like, you know, so I could see a situation potentially where like, you know, you check her level and it's at 70 and you're like, "Oh, it's in range."

And then you check another time, it's at 350 and you're like, "Well, it's in range." You know, but I would be curious

range." You know, but I would be curious still to see what like have you actually checked the gonadotropins in these women who are just using

testosterone only? Like

testosterone only? Like >> that's the part I would be most curious.

>> Yeah. LS LH and FSH. Yeah. Like I Right.

And and you're right. Part of the problem is that they there are continuously fluctuating in that. But so

you know what I've seen is yes that that there is not it's hard to check. Right. Exactly.

>> Yeah.

>> Well like I I I would expect to see this I guess to make it easier is like based this is on my own thinking. I'm

not saying I think this now, but that's why I was so mind-blown is I was thinking like 10 milligrams testosterone per week, LH and FSH are going to be zero. That's how I was thinking.

zero. That's how I was thinking.

>> Oh, yeah. But that doesn't happen. No.

And it would for a man. You're right.

And it's it is different for females.

Like if you >> Right. If you give them even 10 or 20

>> Right. If you give them even 10 or 20 milligrams of of testosterone, their LH and FSH does not go to zero like it does for a male.

>> Oh. Wow. Okay. All right. than

>> new knowledge for me.

>> I do a study about transgender men where 10 to 23% continue to have bleeding because their testosterone dose is not high enough. So

they want to give them enough testosterone where it shuts down their estrogen production.

>> Perfect. Perfect example.

>> Yeah.

>> So >> they're being under they're being given it says they're being given like cream or gel. So these they're these poor

or gel. So these they're these poor bastards are being once again failed and they're just like here rub a little dab of gel on your arm once a day and so then they have all these problems

>> um because it's not being consistently elevated. Need injections.

elevated. Need injections.

>> So oh man that's like the perfect example. I didn't even think of that.

example. I didn't even think of that.

Like so >> you know I I was wrong on that. Like

>> that's just so shocking to me. I can't

believe that.

>> Yeah. That's where I go to learn about hormones across genders is when I want to learn about estrogen and men, I'm like, I'm going to the transgender women community because that's where um people of male sex are taking high estrogen.

These people are like, "My estrogen's so high, it's 40." I'm like, "What happens when it's eight [ __ ] hundred? Let's

find out. Oh, no one died. Oh, they did it for 20 years straight."

>> Like, they tell you you're going to have heart disease. You're going to have

heart disease. You're going to have prostate cancer. You're going to have

prostate cancer. You're going to have breast cancer. You got to keep your

breast cancer. You got to keep your estrogen below 30. They said, "Well, how come some people can have it at 800 and it doesn't happen?" So then we look at the trans man community to get the answers of what happens when

>> someone with XX chromosome takes high doses of testosterone. Well,

>> yeah.

>> Are they getting high rates of breast cancer? Are they getting all these other

cancer? Are they getting all these other things? Like that's where you go to

things? Like that's where you go to look. And then you take that data back

look. And then you take that data back and you say, "Why are you afraid of a 100 nanograms per deciliter, girl?"

>> Exactly.

>> Like people are fear-mongering for no reason.

>> Yeah.

>> I wonder what those open girls take.

Like I wonder.

>> Yeah, it's probably because >> I bet they Well, I don't know if they'd tell you if you asked, >> but I wonder do they have like >> do they have body hair to the same level as trans?

>> I'm sure they do, but it's >> you can just get lasered lasered it off, right? Okay.

right? Okay.

>> That shit's expensive. Very expensive.

>> Yeah. To get the laser treatment. I

mean, they could use probably just hair removal cream and things of that sort.

get a lot cheaper.

>> Terrible.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, I know. That stuff's terrible. I've

used it.

>> I'm on team one blade, so that's what I'm using. Anyway, sucks.

I'm using. Anyway, sucks.

>> Sucks at cutting my hair, but so the original question was still about nandelon. So, so nandelin and females.

nandelon. So, so nandelin and females.

So, yeah. Uh, so this specific nandel like now she's probably going to need nandulin and estrogen, but not because nandelone shuts down estrogen production when when you take it in females. So

I've I've given females for the same reasons we we would give a man nandrol and I've given given it to females and they don't need estrogen if unless you

know unless they're you know menopausal right unless they need it anyways right so you can just give a female mandrone and and I've I've actually had a lot of

a lot of uh a lot of beneficial and positive results from that.

That's That's interesting.

>> Gonna go back to the chat here. We got

Rick Diaz. U I think uh this from the Facebook group. I Yeah, it has to be. It

Facebook group. I Yeah, it has to be. It

can't be a coincidence. I I invited him to come down tonight and uh ask some questions. Let's start with this one

questions. Let's start with this one real quick. Uh the difference between

real quick. Uh the difference between low E2 symptoms and CNS sympathetic drive.

>> Good question.

Oh, I well I Well, they could be the same. And I like I think and I think

same. And I like I think and I think I've I've expressed this before is that that could be the reason why we why people um experience anxiety when they have

high high E2. It could be the sympathetic overdrive. We're we're just

sympathetic overdrive. We're we're just we're we're slowing down the the KMT and MAO process so much that we have too much too many catacombs, too much norepinephrine. You said low E2 though.

norepinephrine. You said low E2 though.

>> I think Ryan meant the same.

>> Yeah, he did. He did. So, well, okay.

So, that was my explanation of high why people get anxiety when they have high E2, >> right?

>> You know, and as we just discussed though, like it's strange that the symptomology of low E2 is very similar to high E2.

>> We talked about this in the chat this morning. You guys remember we talked

morning. You guys remember we talked about this guy in the chat and I was say I was saying uh or I think it was yesterday and you guys went on about how E2 can cause uh overheating because the

added or not E2 uh you said added androgens cause heat. The guy was waking up at night sweating.

>> Yeah.

>> Believe this is him >> cuz we were chatting more today this early this morning. We were chatting privately for a while >> and uh I was like yeah bro that sounds more like CNS sympathetic drive.

>> Yeah.

>> than 2. So that's why he's asking what's the difference between the symptoms. >> Damn, I don't get either of these.

>> They would be very similar. That's why

it's it's really hard to decipher like what's what's the cause of of this. So yeah, I mean it would be

of this. So yeah, I mean it would be like and I've certainly made the mistake of of thinking somebody with high E2 because they're experiencing like

symptoms of synthetic overdrive. And I

would think, oh, your estrogen is too high, so we'll lower it. and it turns out their estrogen was too low and we went the wrong way.

>> So, you know, I've I've been guilty of that before. So, um

that before. So, um >> uh I think they'd be very similar. It'd

be hard to to determine the difference between the two.

>> I mean, so then if you're looking to correct, you probably just check your labs first to make sure before there was either low or high, >> right?

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly.

>> Go ahead, Austin.

>> No, you said we said it at the same time. I think like with the delay it uh

time. I think like with the delay it uh like but I echoed what you said the right answers that's how you troubleshoot it is you would check the labs and then try a little bit higher

>> check the lab again try a little bit higher you know and keep going >> okay we're going to take this next one here from Zachariah uh why do DHE

derivatives reduce side effects on 19 nor >> I have a speculation but um I don't think this happens for everybody but um

some people get dopamineergic down regulation from 19 nor and androgens in general raise them. So

even though 19 nor are androgens, it's possible that like through whatever satellite effects they have, if they lower dopamine, adding androgens on top, especially

androgens that don't aromatize and don't thus raise serotonin levels, androgens just raise dopamine. So it would restore some of that balance that you'd lost by

adding in the 19.

>> Interesting.

Ryan Jay.

>> Yeah, that sounds good to me. I didn't I don't I don't have an an answer for that one. I didn't I I never really thought

one. I didn't I I never really thought of using DHD derivatives for >> I don't either, but I have heard people say that. I've heard people mention

say that. I've heard people mention >> makes sense what you said just makes sense.

>> Like people I never thought about it till now, but a lot of thing is like Masteron is known as like the feelgood and you take it if you aren't feeling good on Deca or Tren.

All right, we got a super chat here from Ruben Baka. Thanks so much, man.

Ruben Baka. Thanks so much, man.

Appreciate it, Ruben.

>> Let's see who wins in a fight. A

kangaroo on a uh cheek drops or baby T-Rex on trend and how much for a Hormones for me t-shirt? Come on. When

are they on sale?

>> We gotta We gotta get him. I gotta get Ruben some t-shirts. I have it on a note over here on one of these on one of these like I have like a million post-it notes and one of them is to get Ruben a

t-shirt. So, I'm going to get to that.

t-shirt. So, I'm going to get to that.

>> That's hilarious.

>> What did drop again? I remember that name. I can't remember what they are.

name. I can't remember what they are.

>> Meone.

It's uh a 19 nor. It's a methylated or 17A alkalated 19 nor super popular powerlifting drug. people often load it

powerlifting drug. people often load it in alongside Halo, MTN or check drops or the thing. And I'm pretty sure check

the thing. And I'm pretty sure check drops are methylated chestto alone.

>> But um it's it to answer this silly question, if I'm the kangaroo and I respond to how I do on orals, which isn't very much,

even the track drops aren't going to have me beat the baby T-Rex.

>> The Karoo is not a baby, though.

Oh, >> my money's on the kangaroo.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

>> Unless the kangaroo is a baby, then the T-Rex will win.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> That T-Rex is [ __ ] If that kangaroo is an adult.

>> Yeah. But yeah, if the if Yeah. It's um

athletic prowess hasn't developed yet, then Yeah. Maybe the kangaroo hasn't has

then Yeah. Maybe the kangaroo hasn't has >> Yeah. Being a baby kind of screws the

>> Yeah. Being a baby kind of screws the T-Rex over in this in this example.

>> Yeah.

I like it.

>> Okay, what else we got here? Thanks for

thanks for that super chat, by the way, Ruben. And um I'm going to make sure

Ruben. And um I'm going to make sure that that uh Ryan gets his shirt out to you one way or another. I'm going to text him every day and remind just for you.

>> Oh my gosh, it's right here. Can you

read it?

>> He's got a note for Ruben. Look at that.

>> T-shirt.

>> Oh, I need one. I need one of those. All

right.

>> You can make a Tublic shop in 10 minutes and upload the upload the JPEGs and it could be ready to go in under an hour.

>> Yeah. Doesn't take long.

>> Well, well, I would love your help doing that because we've been trying to set this the t-shirt.

>> We can't drop ship. That's why you don't want to I mentioned it like five months ago. You you didn't want to do it

ago. You you didn't want to do it because it can't be put on your website.

It has to be kept on their website.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a roadblock. We

keep running drop shipping. I was saying like we don't need to make a like people just want their shirts. Maybe we don't need to make a profit. It's maybe they can just get their merch.

>> Yeah. In the meantime.

>> Yeah, that's a good part. But I mean, >> it's still two bucks a shirt.

>> Free advertising.

>> You can keep them at my house.

>> Yeah, >> I'll do it for five shirts a month.

>> Yeah, we could do that.

>> I can cut the sleeves off.

>> Five shirts a month.

>> Yeah, we could do that.

>> Anyways, we got Rick Diaz back again. uh

would E2 be beneficial to raise SHBG?

Why not just use it for uh simply all the benefits overall, CV, etc.?

>> So higher E2 in general raises SHVG. So

if you're on even TRT and you start lowering your estrogen, your SHVG will go down and the higher your estrogen is,

the higher your SHBG will sustain. So I

guess it it really doesn't matter where your E2 comes from. Like

generally most people get are able to get more than enough E2 with just test.

So like there would be no reason to use estradile exogenously in that situation because if you just took more on top of

it, you would end up with undesirable side effects. But like

side effects. But like um yeah, E2 is beneficial. So that's why it's important to find the balance, you know, when you're using tests.

But um I don't think like the benefits E2 has to offer are separate from taking it exogenously. It just has to be there

it exogenously. It just has to be there regardless of whatever form it comes.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. And the answer to the question is yes, E2 would be beneficial or is SHTPG. Yeah.

>> I mean, and for me, I don't aromatize testosterone enough to get enough E2 to where I feel best. So, like that's actually what started this whole thing

for me is like I got it so I could get my estradile above 40 45 actually. But,

okay.

just uh okay, we got another one here in the chat. I was just looking at the uh

the chat. I was just looking at the uh new comments here. Uh this one here's from AB, excuse me. Uh thoughts on T3 monotherapy year round for nutrient

partitioning, staying lean when bulking.

>> I'm not opposed to it if you take T4 with it.

>> Why would you stay lean while bulking though? That doesn't I don't understand

though? That doesn't I don't understand that. That's

that. That's it's like cutting while you're bulking, right?

Well, like enhanced nutrient partitioning, it implies like you get more muscle to fat ratio. Like so your food is able to be better partitioned to

lean tissue instead of fat, which thyroid hormones are do to a certain extent. You

extent. You >> said do.

>> Yeah, they they do. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

They do do.

But uh taking T3 on its own uh some tissues prefer it seems like to convert with the deiodonase enzymes T4

into T3 inside of the cells. So, if

you're just taking T3 to have sufficient circulating T3 levels, you could actually still have some tissues that are deprived of thy adequate thyroid

activity. And

activity. And um >> I don't know if this is true too, but you I think you can also

>> um convert more T3 to reverse T3 if you don't somehow have T4 there. That part

I'm not sure on, but um I never would recommend taking T4 T3 without T4 anymore.

>> It's Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't

I actually didn't ever think of that. Uh

that's really interesting. Yeah. I I

mean, so back in the when was it? I

don't know, the 2000s. Anywhere from

2000 to 2010, we used to I mean, bodybuilders used to just take T3 all the time. It was like really popular.

the time. It was like really popular.

>> I know. I I'm sure I'm sure that was able to be done probably to some level like people used to take 200 micrograms of like T3 and stuff and I'm willing to

bet that might be because of the reverse T3 that you get disproportionately >> by itself.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you're you're very very possibly right. And and like you know

possibly right. And and like you know I've told you this Austin like some of my theory as to as to why it works so well is because it probably increased SHBG like that much. But

>> right >> my point was that nobody ever took that for a long periods of time. Like when

you took T3 by itself they only it was they just ran it cycles. Right. So I

like my point was that it wasn't it didn't seem sustainable to people. um it

wasn't something that people just did for long periods of time because they were like, "Oh, this works so well. I

should just keep doing it, right?" So, I don't know if it would be a s like kind of like Austin is alluding to, I don't know if it's sustainable to just take three T3 for a year. Um and so I would

agree with him. Run a little bit of run some T4 and just a little bit of T3. um

if you would like and and >> I mean I think some people do some people are prescribed just T3 for their thyroid replacement like that still happens I just don't it might not be

optimal >> right >> um oh great question here guys >> um >> uh what are your thoughts on weed nightly he's a nightly user me too my

friend me too >> um in theory like I feel like I should take this one, guys, but or it seems like Eric Eric could

>> I probably could, but go ahead.

>> Well, I'll throw I'll throw it to you after, but um you know on I've never looked into this enough to be confident in it, but the idea is that the THC

disrupts what is it? Is it REM sleep or the deep sleep? See, I don't even know. But I

sleep? See, I don't even know. But I

think it's like connected to lowering >> REM sleep is is restorative sleep. So

yeah, >> they're both restorative, >> but like deep sleeping and REM sleep are both restorative but do different things.

>> But I never used to get that. Like I

felt like I was a >> a daily user and uh I'm not a daily user anymore, but I don't really feel like I got any negative impacts to my sleep

except I just had no dreams. But >> really, >> if Yeah, if I was using it daily, I didn't have any dreams. And then like if

I stopped Oh, man. The craziest dreams you could ever imagine.

>> That was interesting because I I uh use herb a lot, you know?

>> And you still >> Yeah, I dream.

>> You still got dreams? Oh, wow.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Interesting. I hear this from like a lot of people too who are regular. Do you

smoke like uh well do you smoke or do you vaporize or use edibles or >> smoke? I vape, eat gummies, whatever.

>> smoke? I vape, eat gummies, whatever.

>> Oh, okay. Do you do it like multiple times every day or just kind of at night?

>> Supposed >> mainly at night.

>> Okay, that might be why cuz like I'm thinking of people who like would do like, you know, an eighth of a gram a day of flour.

>> Oh, no. No. or like chronic chronic dabbers, you know, like I used to just >> use only dabs like constantly.

>> Yeah.

>> Because like as a grower like you want to sell your flowers because that's the more valuable part, but >> I had on like unlimited trim. So I would

just use the trim to make dabs with and it was basically free unlimited as much as I wanted.

>> Oh, I could imagine. Yeah.

>> Yeah. We lost Jay.

I think he's just going to the bathroom.

>> I got this. I wanted to pull this up here, Ryan, because uh I think we're going to be wrapping it up here in a few minutes. Where did it go? He has Okay,

minutes. Where did it go? He has Okay, here we go. This is from uh Aean. Uh so,

he was just saying that he's got a Amazon merch account and he'd be willing to help you out for no profit to get just to get your name out.

>> You want to sell some of your t-shirts?

>> So, what do you think? Maybe have him contact you.

>> Yeah. Email.

>> Yeah, contact you. That's really

generous. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, anything that can start getting that out there because uh >> a lot of people are looking for the shirts and uh that is advertising.

>> I know.

>> I want a mug. I want a I want a hormones for me mug.

>> Speedos, >> bathing suits. You do all kinds of things. Straws straws.

things. Straws straws.

>> What's that?

>> Versa grips. Like

>> now we're That'd be good.

>> Yeah. like Renaissance Periodization when they got sponsored by uh Versa Grips as the >> the custom.

>> Have you used them?

>> I've actually never used name brand Versa Grips, but I do use straps every time I do back. So, yeah.

>> But I never use the Versa Grips.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. We'll let you know. I'm going to put the uh email right in the description or right in the uh chat right now. So, uh if it lets me, it

right now. So, uh if it lets me, it should.

I'd be interested to see if it does. It

may not It may not let you post it.

>> We'll find out.

>> Oh, it did.

>> Oh, you spelled it wrong.

>> Did I?

>> All right. It's support

hormonesforme.com.

Close enough. I got I got my my my sideways. pump cones.

sideways. pump cones.

Yeah.

>> All right.

>> So, uh All right, Austin, it was great having you on, man.

>> Yeah.

>> Um it's always a pleasure. I'm just

looking to grab a link, guys. That's

all. All right. We'll have to do it after. Anyhow, thanks everybody for

after. Anyhow, thanks everybody for coming out tonight. Ryan, uh if Jay, anything you'd like to say to the audience? That'd be great. First, before

audience? That'd be great. First, before

we do that, I want to remind everybody again, we got the members meeting, uh the Zoom meeting this Sunday at uh 400 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 1:00 p.m.

p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 1:00 p.m.

Pacific. Uh we have it scheduled for an hour, but we'll go for 90 minutes to make sure everybody gets a chance uh to speak. And if you are not a uh member

speak. And if you are not a uh member through the membership program and you are interested in checking out the Zoom meeting, see if it' be something that you'd uh maybe want to join, uh just hit

me up at eric ric hormonesforme.com and I will get you that link so you could uh join in on the fun on Sunday.

All right, so uh yeah, Ryan J Austin, please send it off.

>> I got every >> I'm so sorry.

We we it's none of none of our faults, but I'll go last or no, I'll go second to last. Okay.

to last. Okay.

>> Just wanted to ask everybody to please send us your thoughts on what you want us to make for the non-live stream content so we can put our time and resources into something that you guys

really want. Um, so let us know. Do you

really want. Um, so let us know. Do you

want education? Do you want live reactions? Do you want u like what do

reactions? Do you want u like what do you guys what can we do that would really make you guys feel happy? And um

thank you for being here and thank you for being so nice to each other. I

cannot believe that we have no rotten eggs at all. Like you guys are perfect.

>> Uh we're so lucky to have you and we appreciate you so much. So

>> thank you for being here and >> yeah, everybody here is really great and really nice. It is kind of amazing

really nice. It is kind of amazing because you don't see that on the internet that much. It was actually funny. The first time I did this podcast

funny. The first time I did this podcast with you guys, there was only one uh mean comment. I actually found it like I

mean comment. I actually found it like I really laughed out loud at it, but they were talking about like I always look like I'm about to cry because I don't have DHT. Like I remember that.

have DHT. Like I remember that.

>> They're like clearly you could get plenty jacked without DHT, but somebody give this guy some DHT because he looks like he's gonna cry. Which is just >> I remember that comment too. Yeah, you

were cracking up. It's such a clever way to to roast somebody.

But yeah, thanks guys. Thank you again.

I really love doing this. So I I love you