Economic Expert: If You Don’t Take Responsibility Now, You’ll Regret It Forever

In countries like Germany and Austria, point of no return has passed. More than

50% of the whole productivity is government controls. More than 50% is

government controls. More than 50% is dependent on government handouts in one way or the other. You really need people leaving. It's the most patriotic thing

leaving. It's the most patriotic thing sometimes to leave. That's how the Austrian school survive. Raheem

Tagazadigan, one of the last true economists of the Austrian school, a prolific author and the first to bring Bitcoin into the halls of academia. He's

building global citadels for economic freedom in a world racing toward digital control. That's a general problem of

control. That's a general problem of wealthy societies. When you inherit a

wealthy societies. When you inherit a lot of wealth, it seems you're very wealthy, but what you see, of course, it's just the capacity to consume. A

pretty strong tradition of Keynesianism claims that consumption is important measure of wealth and we really have a problem if consumption goes down. How

would a Keynesian describe why we need that kind of consumption? Kes was a pretty intelligent person. He thought

most people basically are stupid. They

just look at their salary and they like bigger numbers. Hence realized it and

bigger numbers. Hence realized it and somehow a large part of Kinsanism is tricking the unions inflating money and it looks like number go up for the salaries but actually it's purchasing

power going down. The west in general seems to not really understand this.

It's not about understanding. It's

usually interest. Something very

unfortunate happened in most western societies. Majority is dependent. The

societies. Majority is dependent. The

state is the great fiction where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else. Unfortunately, stakes are

everyone else. Unfortunately, stakes are very high in that kind of situation.

What would be some of the practical advice that the Austrian school would give entrepreneurs in today's world?

That's a great question actually. Um,

okay. So Rahim, I get the sense that something fundamental in our culture and society is breaking and it kind of seems to be accelerating in the last years.

What do you think that is actually happening pushing those kind of trends?

Capital consumption and that reveals itself only in a very belated way and it it's never uh instantaneous. Uh so when

uh you consume your capital uh it seems you're wealthy for quite a while uh until you break something that you need for productivity uh and of course the more interesting things in uh

productivity are the cultural underpinnings uh how we live together how how we work together uh how we trust and why we trust each other which

institutions we can trust and trust also is a large part of the capital now in in the western world those are high trust societies and this trust has been built over a long time through functional

institutions and development and increasing productivity and now I'd say it's the final episode of capital consumption is

distrust is is finally receding so a large and larger part of the society has lost trust in their institutions uh and uh that leaves a kind of vacuum that's

similar to the loss of trust than the older religions. Uh and so that's what we feel

religions. Uh and so that's what we feel now in the turmoil and lack of orientation and it seems things are breaking but it's a it has been a very

long and gradual process but the results are hardly ever gradual. It's like

something breaks and then you realize for a long time you don't see it. It's

like you have not maintained the bridge and it's fine for 100 years and you walk every day and then it's it's like on the 100th year you walk over it and it breaks or you try starting over it and

it breaks and and then it's subtle. It's

very subtle but it was a very gradual process of of diminishing the capital structure. When when you say capital

structure. When when you say capital consumption, do you mean that we mainly focus on a society to actually consume the capital instead of building it and like building the capital and now we're

kind of just harvesting what we've been building the last couple hundreds of years. Uh yeah, it's on one side it's

years. Uh yeah, it's on one side it's incentives. Uh and that's a general

incentives. Uh and that's a general problem of wealthy societies. It's when

you inherit a lot of wealth. uh it seems you're very wealthy but what you see of course it's just the capacity to consume and I feel you're feeling rich uh uh but actually maintaining the structure you

inherited it's it's much more difficult uh and you usually don't have a direct incentive to do so and and it's really challenging if you uh bequeath wealth to

your children uh that that's really hard to not turn them into consumers and so that's a challenge for every wealthy society but Then also in economics

something had changed in the social sciences in general. So very unfortunate ideas emerged uh that uh set the right

incentives for a whole class of elite consumers I'd say uh who with their prestigious ideas and titles uh and and

science usually uh fostered this kind of short-term thinking actually in economics a pretty strong tradition of Keynesianism actually claims that

consumption is like an important measure uh of wealth and and we really have a problem if consumption goes down. uh so

as all this thinking uh we have to push consumption and we measure it we measure it in GDP uh which uh is quite distorted because it mainly focuses on consumption

uh so we have come to understand that looking at consumption some is wealth and it's also how we perceive rich people uh a lot of people are misled it's the lifestyle it's like oh he's

driving the Lambo uh kind kind of thing u and of course that's not the real wealth right and usually those people where it's most prospicious where you see this kind of it's called conspicuous

consumption uh in economics where you see that they tend not to be that wealthy or uh wealthy only for a short time because what you see is actually the reduction of the wealth in

consumption and shortlived experiences maybe consumption goods but the really interesting part of productivity it it is a long and cultural and civilizational endeavor of people

cooperating ing to produce ever more complex capital goods.

Mhm. So, so you mentioned the Keynesians and they they kind of pushed the narrative that actually consumption they justifying it as a need to actually build a healthy society, but this is

like totally contrarian to what Bitcoiners or Austrians think. So maybe

before we go into what you believe in or the Austrian school of things, how would a Keynesian describe why we need that kind of consumption?

Um well, Kings was a pretty intelligent person. Uh but intelligence sometimes

person. Uh but intelligence sometimes leads to kind of overestimate uh what intelligent people can do and how much they can control. Uh and for him it's

it's really looking at society as a big chessboard and then you look at the things that can be measured more easily.

Um and uh he he was quite cynical about some things. uh he thought that like most

things. uh he thought that like most people basically are stupid. Uh they

just look at their salary and they like bigger numbers. Uh so you got to somehow

bigger numbers. Uh so you got to somehow make sure that they always have bigger numbers in their salary and then they are content and if they don't have bigger numbers in the salary then there's problems uh political problems.

So you got to steer the whole society in that direction. Uh and and of course

that direction. Uh and and of course after the wars uh consumption seemed more pressing uh and it was a a kind of

a vicious circle like how do you be productive again? Uh how long would you

productive again? Uh how long would you want to wait for consumption? Uh and

then uh it was time of politics and interest politics in particular where you start with the need uh uh and you're part of an interest group that lobbies for it and and Kings realized it and and

some a large part of Keynesianism is tricking the unions by inflating money and it looks like a number go up for the salaries but actually it's purchasing power going

down and then you can improve the productivity. So that was the big

productivity. So that was the big challenge for Kanes was the British economy. Uh similar to the US economy

economy. Uh similar to the US economy today is like everything seemed relatively expensive. So the

relatively expensive. So the productivity seemed low. The product

seemed overpriced. The salaries too high relative to that productivity. Uh and

then yeah you just trick people. You get

number go up and they'll spend more money and then at least they're happy and content and have something to do. uh

and if they can't find something to do then you have them dig uh uh somewhere and and then you bury money in a field and have them dig it out is this kind of

idea. So like keep people content. So

idea. So like keep people content. So

it's not an entirely stupid rationale.

So there there is a rationale for it. Uh

but it's a kind of way of looking at human beings I I dislike. Yeah. Is it is it actually now that you say this because we I feel like we had so many

periods in history where this was already done and we're kind of repeating it. Let's say like the Roman Empire. I

it. Let's say like the Roman Empire. I

don't know if there was somebody like Kanes who said, "Oh yeah, I need to keep my my king or Caesar happy or whatever."

And is is is it a thing that just humanity will go into cycles over and over again and now we're just living in this Keynesian period? Yes. There there

are no strictly objective cycles but there are cycles. Uh we have a cycle of life. We are young, we get old, we have

life. We are young, we get old, we have a generational cycle. Uh so some things t some patterns seem to repeat. They are

never copied exactly the same. Uh I'd

say there are general challenges that lie in human nature and then also in the logic of human action and interaction.

Um so yes, problems emerge uh again and again. That's why we can find so much in

again. That's why we can find so much in Roman history. That's sometimes reminds

Roman history. That's sometimes reminds us of things. It's it's a uh developed civilization with relatively high uh culture and relatively high level of

wealth but uh at the price of increasing dependence of the population. uh and

things that you could call credit or indebtedness uh uh because if you depend on handouts and redistribution that comes from productivity in the future,

it's it's like a depth contract. Uh and so of course we

depth contract. Uh and so of course we we see this dependence going up and then it's bread and circuses uh to keep those dependent people content. Uh and of course in a way how you deal with people

and how you look at them it changes them uh it changes their behavior. They may

start believe that they are actually dependent that they need the big Caesar handing out the bread and running the circus for them because otherwise there's always catastrophes always

crisis and you're afraid and of course in the Roman Empire in the end this this crisis seemed like oh my god who's going to pay for the people who have to defend us the soldiers because if you're

relatively wealthy and we see the same in the west you tend to have fewer kids uh you tend to be more scared about your life and and um convenience of life and

you're not ready to take up arms and defend something. So the Romans solve it

defend something. So the Romans solve it with money and uh we are doing the same thing. We try to solve all the problems

thing. We try to solve all the problems in society with money. It's like we have an educational crisis. Oh, we got to spend more money on education. We got a health crisis. Oh, we spend more money

health crisis. Oh, we spend more money on health and and so on. And that's

quite similar to the Romans. So there's

nothing uniquely Roman about it. And

certainly we we don't yet have like the Germanic tribes waiting to take over cities. But how then the crisis

cities. But how then the crisis manifests itself is of course different.

Uh and it can be sudden things, it can be environmental uh things, circumstances of the time. So you never know which bridge breaks at which part uh but you have this feeling of

fragility and and that shows itself in in the psyche uh of of the population.

So they tend to get more afraid and they need entertainment to like continue their lives because they have this constant

negative uh or bad feeling that okay things could break but let's trust the authorities everything will be fine they'll fix it. Uh so it's a travel mood

pattern. Uh and it was a similar mood

pattern. Uh and it was a similar mood pattern when the Austrian school emerged in old Vienna. Uh very similar situation a society that fell in crisis. uh that

was looking for orientation that could find no agreement on who to trust. uh uh

it's all enemies uh everywhere potentially uh and then on top of it you have this credit cycle u uh which is related to the business cycle and that

was a big insight of the Austrian school uh that yes there is another kind of cycle it's a kind of material cycle uh but actually the best explanation is a

kind of error cycle so we can for some erroneous conception of productivity we can continue them and entertain them for quite quite a while. Uh, and then we

create our own incentives that keep us trapped in in this error cycle until it doesn't work anymore. Uh, and then goes down and that's the boom bust cycle,

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But now let's get back into the episode with Raheem. Okay. So, so you said that

with Raheem. Okay. So, so you said that then from this crisis the Austrian school kind of emerged. For somebody who has no idea about the Austrian school yet, what it is, what is it about and

what should they try to remember? Uh

it's a realist tradition of economics.

Uh and it meant at the time that it was in opposition to German idealism. Now

German idealism things in big words and big concepts. uh and the Austrian school

big concepts. uh and the Austrian school immersed with KL Minga who started out as a journalist uh and he was like writing on the stock exchange and figuring out okay no one has a clue

about what's happening here the economic theory can't explain any of that uh and still it's it's it's crucially important markets uh and he looked at markets at a

very different way uh from those people who think they know it all and can control everything and if they see something they will like it's always moral it's like Oh, it's greed now. I

understand it. It's it's all greed. So,

I don't need any more explanation. Uh

and and K Manga said, "Okay, well, it's a moral argument. I don't see any ground for that because uh there is no agreement even on on religious grounds and ethical grounds. Very different

interests and ideas are floating around.

So, let's first understand before we judge. Isn't there a better way to

judge. Isn't there a better way to understand price movements than just call that greed or speculation or something and then give a judgment immediately? Uh, and then he really

immediately? Uh, and then he really cared about reality. It's like I I don't know if I'm right. I don't know if I have the right words or concepts. Uh,

maybe it's like language, you know, I can use it. That's interesting. But who

has invented it? Like how come it works that way? And then you figure that out,

that way? And then you figure that out, oh, that's interesting. It's a kind of institution that emerges bottom up. It's

a discovery process. And it's this dynamic approach that's crucial for the Austrian school. So we look at phenomena

Austrian school. So we look at phenomena as kind of discovery processes of people that are interacting that are learning from those interactions and have ends.

Uh those are very subjective. It's it's

all hidden. It's only invisible and they are just looking for means to achieve their ends and and usually it's like uh first it'll be okay I want my kids to survive. I want to survive. I don't want

survive. I want to survive. I don't want to be sick. Uh what helps? uh and they make all kind of errors and they learn from that again and sometimes they get stuck in errors and is this kind of

approach so it's called subjective we go from uh like the perception of people because we can't start with the starting point of I'm the scientist I see it all

I know it all it's like okay why are you uh doing what you're doing I want to like have empathy and understand okay that's your perception of the world that's why you're doing it okay that

helps me understand it uh that that's one way uh to look at it and then uh of course I think that the unit that we want to look at is the individual uh

it's not because we want to be alone so the Austrian school focuses a lot on cooperation and social interaction uh but the unit of it is the individual

because we are not determined by words or constructs we like them we need identities and we seek them but in order to understand them it's best to look for the individual like what do you get from

this identity. Why is it a means for you

this identity. Why is it a means for you to achieve what kind of end? Uh what

kind of meaning are you looking for?

What kind of belonging? Uh and is this subjective individualist realist?

That's the three terms that define the the approach of the Austrian school of economics. Mhm. And then from this

economics. Mhm. And then from this individual perspective, is it being extrapolated onto the full society? you

can really extrapolate uh in the sense that it's not one data point or a few data points uh uh because uh we assume that uh we there are no hidden v

variables that determine our behavior that it's really a complex adaptive system uh so the Austrians were forerrunners in this understanding of

really complexity science uh complex interactions which which are hard to predict and sometimes channel phenomenon of course is money as a kind of institution ution or discovery process,

something akin to language, something that allows for cooperation. Um, and the way you look at it is not you're extrapolating from like subjective ideas

about money is you look at the discovery process which is always subjective. It's

like lots of people learn about uh what other people want and like uh and then you try to grasp it. So grasp is is the meaning of logically

uh thinking through uh why it has to be that way and and why it happened that way and understand what people are seeking in what are the means money provides for which angles for people and

how do they learn that and how can they uh run astray and and and this kind of discovery process and how can it be distorted all those

questions then emerge. Yeah, it sounds it sounds like a way better or like not better but like more natural way of looking at things because like the world is so complex and it's probably like the

one thing which I feel like a lot of people are trying to do is like looking at something and then be like yeah this is the factor which which which is actually influencing this behavior or

something but it's it's very reductionist in a sense and I I I feel this kind of thinking is in every institution nowadays as well where like modern institutions no longer understand

the human nature inherently and we see this disconnect for example like everywhere right now like in Germany people are getting arrested because they tweet something and it's kind of like

probably this this total disconnect on what human nature is actually about and trying to institutionalize this okay A actually leads to B. Uh yes yes yes it was an unfortunate story of of two

things and and the one is the success story of engineering which is impressive uh uh but then some people thought oh it's I would like to be an engineer but I'm not good at engineering how can I

get the prestige and status and income uh of being such a fixer for society potentially that will be big like a plumber that's like not interesting it's not an elite occupation I got to be the

plumber for society and then we had the social engineering idea emerge which is based on very flawed methodological assumptions. So

most good engineers uh have it much easier to understand Austrian economics because it seems common sense to someone who is working in reality is really very abstract

uh people who don't get it uh and have a hard time uh get getting it. Uh and the second uh thing was the success of concentration of military power uh in

the nation state. Of course, it's also this idea with war. It's easier because there's only one end. Uh and of course, you know, it's destruction of the other

side. Uh that's fairly easy. You don't

side. Uh that's fairly easy. You don't

need this complex learning process. Uh

or it seems like you don't need it. You

just give one end to everyone. And then

of course if you can concentrate all the means you're much more effective in pursuing that one end. But of course you don't see the tradeoff uh like every other end disappears even the most

crucial ends and and then you have people entertain this idea that you can organize top down because we've done it so well during the wars. Now let's

organize the peace economy. Uh we can handle we can do it. Uh and this this this kind of approach is really dangerous. uh and the Austrian economist

dangerous. uh and the Austrian economist learned the hard way. Yeah. Yeah. It's

it's almost like this overintellectualization of things which actually you think is progress but then like you only will see if if you look back in history that there might be an

issue with that. For example, I have a lot of friends who actually studied economics and have been in the Keynesian like in the rabbit hole for or like they they've gone through traditional

schooling. let's say this and it's so

schooling. let's say this and it's so hard for them to understand Austrian economics as well as Bitcoin because they're so far apart with all of their

models and everything. And me

personally, I went the other way. So I'm

I studied music business which was more a creative way and then I I got into Bitcoin and then I wanted to actually study international business management

and then I had some economic classes it which were Keynesian but for me because I already had the intro to some of the Austrian concepts. It was so hard for me

Austrian concepts. It was so hard for me to justify for example like printing money is needed for a society to thrive and I feel because so many people learn

it from the other perspective from the other angle it's so hard to actually see that this those this modeling isn't really anchored in that in nature. Yeah,

it takes a lot of unlearning and so far it seemed like a success story you know and and it's really that problem is it's the prestige of science and engineering. It it had a

foundation. It's true. It's amazing what

foundation. It's true. It's amazing what has been achieved by human minds. Uh and

uh the nation state has been a pretty successful institution. If you don't

successful institution. If you don't look at the tradeoffs which are horrendous and terrible and they almost destroyed this whole continent we are from and that was a

very painful experience to see that fall from the height of civilization the most barbarious places you can imagine and then somehow rebuild and not really

understand what's going on because most interesting things in economics are invisible like capital is invisible habits are in invisible productivity activity is invisible, preferences,

needs, ends, all that is in human minds and you don't you only see the machinery and and the consumption, the results of the products and that's so misleading.

But of course, uh people crave this certainty and and numbers uh which is very scientific have numbers and variables and models.

It looks good, you know. I mean, how cool would it be if you could like say, "Yeah, this happens and then this happens." And like if you have a comp

happens." And like if you have a comp complex formula, it actually seems like yeah, if this would work, this would be very handy for us. But if it doesn't actually work, then it's like yeah, why

do we even talk about it? Yes. Uh for

for a while uh it was working because the new uh economic system of globalized cooperation was a fairly drastic change for many people. So we went from an

agricultural society which was very locally organized this kind of modern style society. So at first it's only a

style society. So at first it's only a small elite uh uh because it's a few people it's those that have been in touch with money with foreigners with

trade and so it seemed like okay it's an elite running the shots and you have to have that elite but of course in the market process it's always it's early

adopters and then the rest comes. It

looks like an elite and people thought okay it's a kind of elite and then the state uh and the nation state uh competed with the economy in putting a

lot of prestige for people that were very intelligent and then developed uh a kind of belief that they are part of an important elite and for a while it

didn't work that badly in some parts. So

if you have like very intelligent, hardworking young people who believe they're doing something very important, sometimes they do better than the peasant of course on the ground. So

there are some success stories of these like top down organizers is like the the literate elite uh running shots and some were just the sons of entrepreneurs. So

they had the wealth to then pursue this clergy positions in in the nation state and the earlier on you had much more of course an engineer and virgins being

part of those elite structures because the nation state needed it. It needed

the technology uh it needed the finance saying for the wars eventually this it misled the whole institution into into that direction unfortunately. Mhm. So,

so we talked before a little bit about cycles and a lot of those trends are kind of like a pendalum. They swing into one end and then they swing into the other one. So, with the those kind of

other one. So, with the those kind of ideas and the Austrian school because it has been almost that, right? There

weren't a lot of people actually putting this tradition forth. But in my bubble, in the Bitcoin bubble, it seems that more and more people are actually

adopting that kind of thinking. So I'm

wondering if this is just a bubble thing or do you see the pendulum actually swinging back for people to realize that the Keynesian way of seeing markets or human action is not the right one.

Obviously not obviously it's like when you lose trust in institutions and the paradigm being institutions you become more open to look at alternatives. Now

the original Austria school still will always be a niche phenomenon because it's really about understanding and it has a lot of uncertainty uh and doubt the problem there. What what what

exactly is the problem? Well, most

people are not seeking understanding but they're seeking a reason for their interests you know and they want to have something that's very simple and clearcut and they want to know what's

good or what's bad, you know. Just tell

me what's good and what's bad. Don't

explain to me all the [ __ ] I I want it sure just tell me what's good and what's bad and if it seems good for my interest and I'm all in for it. Uh and and that's

of course how we had to work because we can't solve our day-to-day decisions based on rational understanding because there's so much uncertainty. So we need horistics which is very rules of thumbs.

Uh that's the word for rules of thumbs.

uh uh so and and uh we are led through our evolutionary history to like follow sometimes along and we're happy if someone takes the decision and tells us

uh it doesn't have to be one person for the whole society but just then it's probably a guru somewhere or someone telling you why all is wrong and the

opposite is correct and then some may go along and splinter off uh from that society. uh so this this non-judgmental

society. uh so this this non-judgmental approach of Austrian economics really is a niche uh interest I' I'd say the more practical impact of Austrian economics

uh comes from the practical side and and that's the lesser known part as KL Manga actually advised his favorite students not to go into academia

uh and to theory so his two favorite students went into practical fields so um one into banking and the other into diplomacy Y uh so there has been a very

practical tradition in Austrian economics. It also then came back after

economics. It also then came back after the wars uh in in those using a combination of diplomacy and and finance understanding and monetary understanding

to get uh a kind of globalization infrastructure back and world trade back. Uh uh so a few people had quite a

back. Uh uh so a few people had quite a lot of practical impact there. Um and

obviously Satoshi Nakamoto was inspired by the Austria school and I'd say he's one of those practical Austrian economists. So I've always thought about

economists. So I've always thought about uh different ways to to do something in practice coming from this approach and understanding of the Austrian school and

experiment on things. Um and sometimes they work out and have an outsized impact but usually we don't know what was behind it.

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be some of the practical advice that the Austrian school would, for example, give entrepreneurs in today's world?

Um one uh insight appeared uh already in in the 70s uh is that uh we enter a time where people and capital is more mobile

gets more mobile and that may lead uh to a situation where uh potentially there can be positive competition between nation states. That was an important

nation states. That was an important early insight. Uh it's the insight

early insight. Uh it's the insight that's uh in the sovereign individual which was inspired by the Austrian school and also is one of the books that predicted this internet money

cryptographic internet money is how they phrased it and it came from from this idea and approach. So don't look at the set structures you're in but do a kind

of the term is geo arbitrage uh is figure out go where you treat it best make use of that mobility of capital ideas and yourself potentially and don't

get stuck uh with the stationary bandits that's another economics term uh as inspired by by the Austrian school uh as uh if you have bad in most people are

immo uh then of Of course, you'll be plundered because you can't leave. Uh so

uh not everyone has to be mobile. It's

just if there is the exit option that's crucially important. So you can tell if

crucially important. So you can tell if a society is like going down. If the

exit option vanishes, if you have to build walls to keep them in, that's always a side. It's not because everyone wants to leave. is because the right people need be able to leave to present

the cost of wrong policies, the cost of wrong top down decisions. Uh so mobility of capital and people is crucially important to improve our world and there

are some uh reasons to be optimistic. So

we see quite quick uh changes in policies. Um

policies. Um uh we see kind of international pressure of between jurisdictions. uh we see how quickly uh countries can improve the

situation for people and all the burials on the ground and then we see how it really shapes and how people move and change and adapt it and of course there's the thinking behind the Bitcoin

nation state adoption like we all biters like looking for okay what's the next place that treats Bitcoin as we all and let's go there let's spend our sets let's give them some promotion uh and

and uh that's the kind of positive reinforcement of that had a competition.

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like this it's kind of a a showcase that the Austrian school is anchored in reality because there are so many people who are just living that kind of life without even knowing the

theory behind it. Like look at all the nomads, all the people doing like Amazon dropshipping and so on. They're kind of living the life of like what the Austrian theory would say you could do.

Like look at what the market actually needs. actually look how to to like most

needs. actually look how to to like most of them live in Thailand now because they are just treated best there and it seems like there is this this whole

capital like capitalist group which are just living the Austrian theory in person but probably never heard about Austrian economics before exactly that's the sign of good theory it's a

realist so it should be about real people in the real world and it's by understanding you don't need to understand what you're doing you don't need to understand money to use Honey, you don't need to understand language in

order to use language. Uh but it's interesting, a very interesting phenomenon. Sometimes this understanding

phenomenon. Sometimes this understanding helps you to do something better.

Sometimes you have to learn or usually you have to learn the hard way as the school of life. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And

we we mentioned living or the book sovereign individual. I think that

sovereign individual. I think that that's like a very I I don't remember when it was written but it's astonishing how much they predicted and how like the trends actually trend today if you look

at it and one of the things is exactly even in my life right now a point like I've been traveling the last 3 to four years and I'm right now actually looking

into where I want to settle in which jurisdiction I actually want to go like what what is maybe for your personal life what did you take from that uh book or how do you structure your life

because you're originally from Vienna, right? So you don't live there anymore

right? So you don't live there anymore and now you moved to Switzerland as well. I've grown up in Vienna. Yes, I'm

well. I've grown up in Vienna. Yes, I'm

have Iranian background but from age one and a half I've grown up in Vienna, Austria and uh yes I moved to Switzerland um not too long ago to tou

and it was a compromise. So it's not we can only be realist. also have to be subjective uh and understand that for every person there's a different context uh and some things are far more

important uh than than other things. Of

course I have a family, I have kids, I have a wife I find agreement with and uh for us Switzerland was a good compromise. I wouldn't suggest it as

compromise. I wouldn't suggest it as like the utopia for everyone to come. If

you can avoid settling down officially, it's advantageous if you have a good passport. The best strategy is of course

passport. The best strategy is of course to be officially the perpetual traveler because there are quite a few jurisdictions that are happy for your mobile capital and will not enforce

taxation on any outside income. So you

can live tax-free. That's impressive in the world of today. You can live with much less regulation. You can live as if you are a tourist everywhere without having to travel every day. There are

some challenges to that if you have a family of course but being a perpetual tourist just doesn't mean you have to travel every day. It just needs usually means you need to have a few basis for

that if you don't want to live right in those jurisdictions that and you only have outside income of those jurisdictions that don't tax for an income. Uh Switzerland is a premium

income. Uh Switzerland is a premium option. You know it's first world uh uh

option. You know it's first world uh uh living standards very high level very expensive for debt. So you pay for that.

It's the premium location if you want to be in Europe. So I've grown up in Europe. Uh it's like culturally

Europe. Uh it's like culturally important for my kids. Their first

language is German. Uh I speak French to my wife. Um we are connected to Europe.

my wife. Um we are connected to Europe.

I have lot of lots of things going on in and around Europe. And yeah, Switzerland is a premium option if you can afford it. It's not the thing where you go to

it. It's not the thing where you go to if you are like the independent entrepreneur who is trying to figure it out then I would not at all recommend to go to

Switzerland. The big issue of

Switzerland. The big issue of Switzerland it's it's quite wealthy. It

should be much wealthier but of course people don't see that. They don't see the opportunity cost. I mean it avoided three the last three major wars. Uh uh

and so any place in Europe would be like Switzerland if they avoided all the stupid [ __ ] uh they did in between. So

Switzerland it's just it's slower uh as part to the political structure and they were lucky in in figuring something out early the hard way. Uh and it's quite

paradoxical. It's like the Swiss were so

paradoxical. It's like the Swiss were so good at war and fighting wars that it led to pretty early on this idea. Okay,

now we're going to dominate war and they started attacking. But it was too early

started attacking. But it was too early and they failed. Uh they were very good in the defensive but failed in their offensive endeavors. And so it it was

offensive endeavors. And so it it was their luck that early on they realized okay let's do war making as a service.

We sell our capacities elsewhere but let's not start wars. uh let's try and then of course they still had a civil wars and and uh as everywhere there was

quite a lot of centralization but it was belated um and and and that's also how Switzerland is let's say 10 years better than Germany and 5 years better than

Austria two countries I know well so it's it's it should be much better so they I think really critical about what Swiss politicians have done what the

Swiss centralized state has done to that kind of potential but Of course, it's one of the wealthiest European places means one of the wealthiest places in the world. Uh uh the challenge is they

the world. Uh uh the challenge is they are spoiled. They have two goods. So they uh

spoiled. They have two goods. So they uh can do a lot of stupid stuff. Uh and

follow in the same direction. It's just

they still have some correctives with the referendum. So it's very hard to

the referendum. So it's very hard to drive this kind of very woke crazy [ __ ] beliefs in. So if you need to really have the majority of the

population for big things that helps to slow down usually uh it's not because the majority is right always it just makes it more difficult to go through with stupid ideas. Uh and and that has

helped. Yeah. So Switzerland I think the

helped. Yeah. So Switzerland I think the best premium option but uh also because it still has competition. So Switzerland

is like Switzerland it has the cantons.

So I live in the canton with the lowest tax that gets the most money. Oh, what a miracle. They make the most most money

miracle. They make the most most money from taxation. They're the richest

from taxation. They're the richest canton, but the tax rates are the lowest. Uh, which of course is good

lowest. Uh, which of course is good incentives. Uh, and it's zero capital

incentives. Uh, and it's zero capital gains tax. Uh, which is important to

gains tax. Uh, which is important to Bitcoiners, I feel, because I always like it's terrible. The idea that you are taxed for the loss of purchasing power of your fiat currency is like, hey

guys, it's not my fault. Sorry, why

should I pay you?

Yeah. But I think with also with taxes, it seems like it's it's ramping up massively in the last like decades and it I don't know if this is going to stop

and Switzerland kind of seems to actually understand that there is an incentive for actually lowering taxes to get all the productive people actually

into those cantons. But like the west in general seems to not really understand this or have another thought about it that like we need to harvest all the productivity that the most productive

people in our country actually do. No,

they are the bad ones. We need to harvest all of it. Yes. Unfortunately,

there's bad news. As I said, most people don't care about understanding. It's not

about understanding. It's usually

interest. And something very unfortunate happened in most western societies in in Europe. Uh the majority is dependent. So

Europe. Uh the majority is dependent. So

they live off that. They they think they're part of the kind of bandit scheme. So it's like the early

scheme. So it's like the early forerunner of the Austrian school of French economist said is like the state is the great fiction where everyone tries to live at the cost at the expense

of everyone else and that has happened.

Uh and people need to rationalize. So

that's why they look for ideas. They

look for ideas that make them look good.

So you you don't want to feel like a bandit. That's so you don't want to feel

bandit. That's so you don't want to feel like a criminal. If you do something important, that's why societ society has to pay for it. Of course, it's crucially important. You are in the media, you are

important. You are in the media, you are in education, you are in politics, and you're saving the world every day. Uh so

you need all that money that flows to you. And then of course there's no

you. And then of course there's no incentive whatsoever to like have an interesting ideas that to paint that in in a worse light than you want to see yourself when you look yourself in the

mirror every day. Uh so I think that that's the the biggest challenge that uh in in countries like Germany and Austria the point of no return has passed. Uh

it's now they are not market societies anymore. It's more than 50% of the whole

anymore. It's more than 50% of the whole productivity is government controlled.

uh and more than 50% of the voting population is dependent on government handouts in one way or the other either because they are retirees

uh or they are directly on the government do or they have this social welfare state uh uh insurance. So that's

that's the issue and that's why the direction is not that positive. The

incentives are not positive. That's why

I left Vienna. The main reason is is not taxes. uh it's not the most important

taxes. uh it's not the most important part of your life. Uh it was for me it's the mentality in the environment where my kids grow up in what are people

looking forward to and already there's this line from Arnold Schwarzenegger when he left Austria. He said people ask you why when you leave such a beautiful country and go to the US and he said the

problem I had is when all the peers of my age they were already thinking about the retirement. It's like what they

the retirement. It's like what they would do in retirement. and say, "Okay, I can leave that kind of culture uh where you don't want to create something, try out something new." And I

I think unfortunately has gotten worse over time. Uh because now usually it's

over time. Uh because now usually it's not even a retirement after productive life as a worker in a factory or somewhere. It's retirement after whole

somewhere. It's retirement after whole life being retired in a way because you do something of which there's not really that much value in it. that's

artificially inflated and you get uh a salary which is like a hand out and you're dependent on that um a handout and and and that's why you don't want to

criticize it. You got to trust it

criticize it. You got to trust it because oh imagine if that goes away. Oh

my god, I have such a big credit on my house. I got to leave my house or I'd be

house. I got to leave my house or I'd be divorced. Oh, it would be terrible,

divorced. Oh, it would be terrible, terrible, terrible. Let's let it avoid

terrible, terrible. Let's let it avoid that thought and this cognitive dissonance. That's why it got to be

dissonance. That's why it got to be right. You got to trust the experts

right. You got to trust the experts because otherwise it'll be catastrophe.

It'll be it'll be worse. It'll be

unimaginably bad. So unfortunately the stakes are very high uh your trap in that kind of situation. Yeah. And then

and then you can kind of see how we started with like a very theoretical explanation of what Keynesians think and so on. But now you can actually see how

so on. But now you can actually see how all of this if this is put into practice it actually leads to people having no meaning in life not being able even to

create value because they like the fundamentals on which society are built upon are just not not the proper ones.

Yeah. Yeah. and they don't even think about like creating value never le across their mind they got it too suddenly useful for other people and it was really apparent during the pandemic

uh in Austria is like government decided oh [ __ ] uh we don't know what to do let's just use money like and they gave everyone handouts even if there was no work and so government shut down your

business and then they gave you money and so like we had covid vacations in Austria we call it like a large part of the population was really happy during COVID. It's like, "Oh, that's

during COVID. It's like, "Oh, that's nice. I got have a holiday, still get my

nice. I got have a holiday, still get my salary or most of my salary. Uh, and and now I well, I'm probably trapped in my little

garden. Uh, but at least it it it's

garden. Uh, but at least it it it's nice. I can watch Netflix all day long.

nice. I can watch Netflix all day long.

It's this kind of thing that you of course you want to have it nice and a very stupid idea of a holiday uh that really comes from a dependent population. Uh that's the whole like

population. Uh that's the whole like idea of a holiday is I need to have a permission to do something I like. Uh

and it comes from war actually. You you

need to be in war and sometimes you take like the holidays off. You're not

fighting. Uh you need a permission and then of course you're very happy about it's a holiday because you actually be able to survive. Uh so that that's where where this whole idea comes from and and

it really showed the worst of that kind of western culture uh during the COVID holidays. Mhm. Yeah. Like I I think it's

holidays. Mhm. Yeah. Like I I think it's astonishing what you said that like we actually passed the point of return already that it's kind of like the the

overall market or societal trend is not reversible anymore. So probably the only

reversible anymore. So probably the only thing you can do is opt out as an individual and opt into another system or have this gu arbitrage this political

arbitrage to actually shield yourself from that trend with this which is inevitably happening. Yes, but don't

inevitably happening. Yes, but don't panic. I mean you can still have a good

panic. I mean you can still have a good life and the one problem is of course few and fewer people have kids. So if

you're already at old age, I mean you can have a perfect life in Germany if you don't are like unlucky to run into a

knife or something. But overall like a comparably high lifestyles if you get like your government hand out every month and and you have your apartment uh

it'll be a fine life for the last decades of your life. uh uh and uh even many if you have children it's a lot of context like do you need the

grandparents around do you have like a support network that you need do you like the culture at the place you are you grow up in the village uh things

like that of course you don't need to leave but uh exit is the best option usually uh and it's the best option for those that don't leave you need people

leaving uh and it's the most patriotic thing sometimes to leave. That's how the Austrian school survived by leaving Austria. Uh it would have all gone down.

Austria. Uh it would have all gone down.

It disappeared completely. The economics

tradition had disappeared completely in Austria and what died off. Um uh and I'm actually the Austrian only Austrian Austrian economist that is teaching in

universities and and is is trying to maintain and then bring back the tradition. Now even I have left Austria

tradition. Now even I have left Austria which was of course quite a sign. There

was even a newspaper article like on me leaving is like oh that's that's important to convey like just like attention uh something is not right uh

and if I wouldn't be able to leave you wouldn't see it there was no way to see it you watch the news like everything is fine or there are that usual problems

and you can't do anything about it society needs exit and yes if you look for if you're more entrepreneurial and look for ways uh it's just exit means

you don't have to accept everything at your location uh and I think even like the the usually the the cultural attachment this kind of patriotism you don't want to leave behind your people I

think sometimes it's a patriot patriotic duty um to exit uh and and not take part in destruction and then you can come back or you can help you can always

visit uh no problem can always be the tourist and the generous tourist uh and and the one that really helps this

society or or village or family um and uh yeah unfortunately it happens it's geopolitics it's not in our hands no one knows what's going to happen the trend

is not good for productivity in Germany let's look at that as Austria as well productivity is important for maintaining and and producing something new if you care about that if you don't

care about it it's fine I mean you can be like you're an artist and you enjoy life and I don't know you music as a passion project, then it's

fine to stay in Austria. It's a

beautiful place. Uh, it's nice. If

that's your kind of life, uh, it's all fine. You don't need to leave, but it's

fine. You don't need to leave, but it's great that all people leave. And I think you you are foolish if you start a company in Germany or Austria. So, I

mean, there's an exit tax. It means if any if the company ever has value because it creates value and it's not just yourself but but it grows a

productive structure then you'll be trapped because you have to pay exit tax all the valuation of a venture company and the valuation of course is not

actual liquidity it's the hopes of the future. So you got to pay for a

future. So you got to pay for a potentially good future of your venture that's already producing value hopefully. Uh and it means for most

hopefully. Uh and it means for most operas you're trapped for a while because you won't just come up with that kind of liquidity and so I would really warn every so of them they'll be foolish

and this is kind of realism. Of course

it doesn't mean that that Austria Germany is the worst place in the world and everyone has to leave immediately.

It's just be realist like look at things, look at alternatives, understand your situation uh and don't be trapped.

Don't feel trapped. You're not always trapped. Yeah. It it's it's also a

trapped. Yeah. It it's it's also a reinforcement what you said that once the walls are up and they want to keep you in a place. It's kind of an in

indeed that yes they something is wrong already and you need to look at it.

Yeah. Exit taxes, capital controls and things may come worse uh on that front.

So let's figure out if you want to trap your money. Okay, that's a very bad

your money. Okay, that's a very bad sign. Yeah. So, so I think I think one

sign. Yeah. So, so I think I think one thing is cool like if you reframe actually leaving your country as a patron pet

patron forgot the word patron. Exactly.

that you the the thing which is important is like you can actually then be productive in creating a better future somewhere else which then hopefully will actually mirror on to

where you you left from. But if you would say like let's say there's a new society emerging based on Austrian economic principles which I would say

probably is maybe the bitcoin society or like all the bitcoiners like on what fundamental truths would that be built

upon win-win cooperation so not zero of some thinking that's the big challenge you need to take from someone to have something you don't have a right to to

take some something uh uh you have your life, do the best with it. And usually

you achieve your ends much better by helping other people achieve their ends as well. And that's so much better than

as well. And that's so much better than being destructive uh and engaging in destructive endeavors and putting other people down uh uh to make you seem better. Um so it's is that kind of

better. Um so it's is that kind of approach and and that means pretty little politics because unfortunately politics usually means it's the silver game interest group. is like got to do politics because otherwise those

interest the other interest group will be too strong and they take away from us. So let's first take away from them

us. So let's first take away from them for our interest. So it's less politics uh more spontaneous voluntary cooperation. Yeah, it's also way long

cooperation. Yeah, it's also way long more long-term perspective by doing that because you're actually trying to align all the incentives for everybody

involved that the whole thing just wins together. Yep. Yeah. Let's hope let's

together. Yep. Yeah. Let's hope let's hope we're going to get there. Like, how

optimistic are you that the pendulum will swing on to the other side? Well,

I'm very optimistic in the long term.

I'm not that optimistic in the short term for most European countries. So,

there'll be harder times ahead, but there's no prediction that's already happening. And then people reflect that

happening. And then people reflect that if you ask Western Europeans how they perceive the future, do they think that their children will have an easier and better life? the majority already says

better life? the majority already says no we fear not even if they trust fully in the systems like this inherent unconscious feeling and it's also of

course pretty hard to bring kids to the world if you think it'll only be worse for them that's another reason for the the fertility decline and and the big uh

demographic crisis that's added onto that loss of productivity but then pain is the ultimate change agent uh so

that's really a bit unfortunate here that Europe is still that wealthy and in inherited so much capital uh and can go on for so long in using it in a

nonproductive and unproductive way. Um

and we'll see some more structure of that capital. But fortunately, it it's

that capital. But fortunately, it it's also very dynamic then because it's not the physical stuff. It's if the capital can move uh and bitcoin is crucial for

that because really the most mobile form of money uh and money is the most liquid form of capital. uh so that uh makes me

optimistic uh that uh when we see better examples and better ways for people to create value then it's always easy to adopt and follow role model and we see

that how jurisdictions like reorient themsel and people reorient themsel and and they look for places that do better um and unfortunately politics with the

interest group identity zero sum games uh us against them can mislead people for a long time because it's so good at uh grasping our

intuitions, our evolutionary intuitions of tribal mindset. Uh uh but yeah, in the long term I'm I'm optimistic uh because it's the invisible thing. its

ideas, technology, processes, tools like Bitcoin, the ultimate invisible part that has a very real is very real still has very real impact. So

we can be optimistic there. All the

tools are there. The ways are there. You

just need to figure out a way. Uh

yeah, I I think I think so too. I think

that's the the most important thing like yeah everything there are those trends happening which are probably a little bit more dark or pessimistic. But like

we also are at a point in history where you have any tool to actually be able to opt out like even monetarily which which

was very hard before Satoshi Nakamoto um like found the solution Bitcoin and now like even though all of this is accelerating like we started it I think

we're still in a very good place to actually be able to circumvent most of that and live a very happy and uh healthy life. Exactly. Cool. Where can

healthy life. Exactly. Cool. Where can

people find you and learn more about you and maybe also plug a little bit what you're doing with Scholarium because I think it's it's yeah hard to understand. Scholarium

comes from the Latin word for university uh which actually means the community of the teachers and those who are learning and scholarium is only the part of those

who are learning the scholars because I think that university was hijacked by a lot of certified teachers that bring about the clergy like elite or psudo elite uh so it's an institution that

tries to continue this original Austrian school in its theoretical also practical way and that's a bit the hidden part of it. So, Squari was also an enterprise.

it. So, Squari was also an enterprise.

Uh it's was of course early in Bitcoin and and followed that and now it's is also quite engaged in geo arbitrage and setting up locations. cycle bitcoin

citadels uh uh building that around the world and and learning that way like experimenting what we can do in the world and then of course also going from the interdisiplinary approach of the

Austrian school trying to figure out what's going on and do better decisions uh all the public uh facing things so far in German speaking so there there is

a study program for this original interdisciplinary value neutral Austrian school of economics and all the related hated Austrian school, Austrian tradition. So there were quite a lot and

tradition. So there were quite a lot and originally was very interdicciplinary. So that you can if

interdicciplinary. So that you can if you speak German, you can do the kind of study program at scarium.atat. Um otherwise I'm the only

scarium.atat. Um otherwise I'm the only channel I really use is is x uh uh um x.com Twitter. Uh and there you can find

x.com Twitter. Uh and there you can find me at scolarium_at. Uh that's the handle.

scolarium_at. Uh that's the handle.

That's awesome. Thank you so much, Rahee. This was awesome. Thanks, Wex.

Rahee. This was awesome. Thanks, Wex.

What a pleasure talking to you.