EP 1: The Evolution of Professional Services from Necessary Evil to a Collaborative Business Engine

AI is everywhere. Everybody's talking

about it. It's interesting for me. I'm,

you know, I've got the two parts. I'm

excited about it because I see a lot of potential. I'm also scared about

potential. I'm also scared about thinking like, oh yeah, I can cut down the PS team by 50%. It's a time where things are changing so fast that you need a bit of faith and investment in

your people otherwise it will go elsewhere.

>> I just want your take on Nvidia as a company. Buy or sell and why? Ah

company. Buy or sell and why? Ah

[Music] hey everyone welcome to our next episode of our podcast. Today we have with us

Maxim Sapora. Uh Maxim is a professional

Maxim Sapora. Uh Maxim is a professional services leader who's been in the space professional services and IT delivery for over 18 years now. Uh incidentally

we uh met when uh uh he started posting a lot more actively on LinkedIn on his thoughts on professional services recently. So caught my attention got on

recently. So caught my attention got on a call learned about his passion for the space and thought he'd be a great guest to bring on. He's currently director of IT services delivery at Oxford Nanopore

Technologies.

Welcome to the show today Maxi.

>> Thank you very much Rio. Very glad to be here. Awesome. We'll start a little bit

here. Awesome. We'll start a little bit on the, you know, lighter note. If you

could travel anywhere, where would you go? Maxim,

go? Maxim, >> it's a hard question because I love traveling. So, you know, I've got so

traveling. So, you know, I've got so many countries on my bucket list, but if I had to choose one like this would be Iceland. Um, the key reason is like I'm

Iceland. Um, the key reason is like I'm a huge find of nature and if I go to Iceland, there would be also a trekking

holiday. So going backpacking in, you

holiday. So going backpacking in, you know, the mountains, really feeling the power of nature in on on that island

because it's, you know, volcanic island and beautiful sceneries and they said you could have like four season in one day when you go there. So yeah, I'm

really attracted also to the mindset of the people there. So yeah, that's that's always been something that I would love to a place I would love to go to. Yeah.

>> Sounds lovely. And I think if you decide to do it, you'll have to invite me as well to join.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Great. So, you know, the topic we picked for today u Yeah.

>> is interesting. You know, going from necessary evil to collaborative business engine, how do you evolve professional services to make that transition? Uh but

before we get into the topic, what do you think is your superpower as a PS leader?

>> Yeah, it's a good question. Um

I think I would say it's it's my people management. So it's um I think there's a

management. So it's um I think there's a lot of things that I love about professional services is a variety of the role. Um so I've been doing

the role. Um so I've been doing professional services in consultancy company in IT uh so in tech um then in

um professional services more in an advisory into um a learning platform. So

I see the variety of it but what is really the key element of it is like um you know it's the people. So and I've

learned through the years that I'm good at you know perceiving people and you know understanding and and so that works with the relationship with the customers

but also internally with the teams and um yeah so it's still a work in progress. It's something you develop as

progress. It's something you develop as you go along. you're never right because that's the same with people. We are all imperfect. So, every relationship is

imperfect. So, every relationship is difficult and needs some work. But, um

yeah, I think this is something I'm Yeah, I'm I'm I'm good at and um yeah, I I continue developing.

>> Very cool. It is indeed a business which is all about the people anyway, delivered by the people. Um

>> yeah, >> so you know, great quality to have on that front. uh when we started chatting

that front. uh when we started chatting I think one of the interesting perspectives you brought is uh uh you know within tech looking at PS as a

business within the business >> uh I think can start with maybe if you can expand a little more on that thought on that you know

>> yeah yeah so I think it's um where I see is the thing it's like because sometimes PS is seen as just a delivery engine. You know, you've got um

delivery engine. You know, you've got um from an external point of view, some people in a business are saying, okay, you just have a list of projects and you're delivering project as per

requirement and that's it. But why is that a business within a business is because it's way more. It's a its own ecosystem where you have a value stream

that starts from managing the demand, developing solution, um delivering them, supporting them, working with marketing, selling as well.

You know, it could be all part of um of a professional services and then you have the financial management, the people management. So all of that

people management. So all of that becomes like a a small ecosystem that can then become like a growth engine for the company even a lead generator or you

know many other things but it's changing that perspective that you know PS can be more and PS leader are doing a lot and

uh they they kind of have multiple caps like you know financial manager people manager and yeah so there's a lot going on.

Got it. I I think it's a good concept to think about PS as a growth engine and you know uh as as a way to develop more

business, get you new new leads etc. What does it take to do that? Because I

don't think every PS or is operating fulfilling that you know outcome or or that vision. So uh what makes a PSR

that vision. So uh what makes a PSR function in a way that can become a lead genen engine versus and a growth engine versus not?

>> Yeah, it's hard work I would say to start with depending on where you start.

But uh you're you're you're totally right by saying it's a vision. So first

you need to convey that vision to the other department. You need to work very

other department. You need to work very closely with your C CFO, with CS leaders, with sales leader to really

showcase what PS can bring, but also understanding their point of view and how you work collaboratively. So that's

really the key element here to to to really, you know, push it as a growth engine. Um so you can work also on you

engine. Um so you can work also on you know showcasing that value by looking at how you deliver what sort of projects

how you package your project how you you define your so let's say example of professional services in a SAS company

what's your impact on ARR NRR uh customer retention globally the customer life cycle so sometimes those

information are missing for you know all the department to understand what is the power that is behind the PS organization. So to summarize would be

organization. So to summarize would be like communication first. So really

selling the value of the PS. Second

looking at how measurements to prove the value of what PS can deliver for the organization and third is like looking at how you package things but

collaboratively with other part of the business.

Got it. And um

I know when you say work with other teams, there's always, you know, everyone has their own goals, KPIs they're chasing and uh own initiatives they're focused on, right? Uh

>> yes.

>> So aligning teams together, aligning other organizations to see PS the way you see it. um espouse the same you know uh

it. um espouse the same you know uh orientation towards the department towards what outcomes are needed from it. Uh how have you sort of navigated

it. Uh how have you sort of navigated that? How have you built the right

that? How have you built the right relationships or like ways of working with other teams?

>> Yeah. So here we touching right into organizational change management. So

typically typical thing of you know mapping stakeholders within your organization who are your champions who you need to convince how you how you

work on you know developing that vision of professional services keeping the vision of the business aligned with it.

So that's another part as well that is quite important is to make sure that what we are developing is also fully aligned with the the overall objective

of the company we are working in. So

that's that's key and essential. Um I

would say also enablement is a good way to you know like an icebreaker like at the beginning of our interview with your question is like uh you know how do we

break the silos that we see between you know sales PS you know customer success for example it's like we need to learn from each other what is really what are

we really delivering and so on. Um I'm

also a huge fan of you know uh start with why by Simon Sin and I think it can be applied to you as a person but also as an organization and that's something

I I implemented is to look at what is the why of the team what is the why of the larger organization and how do you connect that I know you can make it like

you know a business map with like objective trickle down but I like the why thing because it can sometimes speaks better to to the people um as such because they feel like oh yeah I I

see the the real purpose behind instead of you know we need to increase our margin by five point next year uh you

know maintain NR by you know the same level etc so it's it's important to have those metrics but you know what is behind all of that you know what what

can we provide and um articulating that helps in the conversation as well to simplif Y with you know the other part

of the organization.

>> Do you think you can make it real with a with an example of what that why may look like um you know how how you've

sort of actually done that exercise.

>> Yeah. So we could say for example um Ry as you know professional services advisory team. So working you know for

advisory team. So working you know for enterprise customer in a SAS um you know company would be to uh

support them to make the most of their investment.

So that's the why of that particular team and so everything else is derived from that. So are we creating outcome

from that. So are we creating outcome oriented solution because that makes you know a package that is interesting for them. Do we do uh PS as a service that

them. Do we do uh PS as a service that is aligned with the sales of the licenses that they have a recurring thing? So it would be customer oriented

thing? So it would be customer oriented client oriented. So we'll have to listen

client oriented. So we'll have to listen to them first. But that's kind of the why here. So that that's a good example

why here. So that that's a good example and I've seen it in practice and when you you go talk to CS and they said oh yeah no that that makes sense. We do

also part of it. So that's where you start trying to look at the things in more detail and to say yeah so this is where we stand this is where you stand and this is how we work collaboratively

um on on maintaining that that customer success as well. Yeah.

>> Got it. And you know you talked about uh designing uh packages keeping in mind the why. Uh you also talked about

the why. Uh you also talked about >> uh you know as a growth driver uh measuring how PS impacts metrics like AR

R and RR.

>> Yeah. uh what are your experiences in packaging and service design that you know have some interesting insights you

can share about around the right way you've gone about designing PS offerings to influence those metrics keeping in mind the outcomes you want for your

customers >> yeah so it's yeah it's an interesting thing to do. So

I think I would start with we need to keep it simple I think is a key thing. I

started on a a project like this and we we wanted to release way too many uh solution all at once where the market was not necessarily was

recessing so it was more difficult. We

had also uh not getting all the internal buying you know because what you need to think about is like the more services you release the more enablement the more

sales need to be aligned it's a team work you can't you can't be just PS and you know it won't sell on its own so um

so you have to to think of the bandwidth as well here so making it simple um is um is a good way to about

looking at what drives. So if we take the two measurements so NR I would say sometimes we should start with just measuring what we are already doing

because we might be influencing it without even knowing. So that was like one of the lessons that we we saw um is like we started to check you know okay

what's the NR per customer who have professional services and the ones that do not have professional services in the same segment and we were clearly seeing

that there was like a 20% more NR on prof you know where professional services was attached for me it was not a surprise because I know that working

In professional services, usually you increase the stickiness of your customer because you know you deliver services, you work with them, you create a partnership, you become like a trusted

advisor and quite often you know you do if you do well one project you will have recurring projects. So you will increase

recurring projects. So you will increase that NR. Um

that NR. Um so ARR could become a bit more you know tricky because as such PS

usually is more delivering project so it's more like one off so but we have also all the way so this is where we can

come on the packaging there's um you know some people that start to looking at how can we sell PS as a service and uh a bit

like I would say like um a hybrid between professional services and managed service. Managed service starts

managed service. Managed service starts to you know pick up also you know they put advisory know in managed services and some PS component quite often so

consulting companies share their resources between the two parts. So

yeah, but if we look at the SAS, you know, environment, um, that's where we could start looking at at packaging that within and showcase like a direct impact

on increase of AR because that's it could be recognized. You need to work with uh you know the financial team and making sure they fully understand because some that was one of the biggest

blocker is like for them to understand that professional services could be as a service requires a bit of convincing and

and understanding also at that level.

Yeah.

>> Got it. And you know when we talk about you know one engagement leads to the next and you know so better and more outcomes for the customer with the software itself and you know

>> obviously leads to that better >> growth in NR. What are some qualities you believe you know you sort of coach your team on to ensure that

they do indeed become trusted advisors for the customer. They do indeed you know the customer sees value in the partnership to keep doing more with you.

You know obviously I I would say just at the outset customers love working with you know technical people and you know uh getting help to get to their

outcomes. But beyond that um what do you

outcomes. But beyond that um what do you think helps from a way of working or you know skills or traits of of people on

the team?

>> Yeah. So this is a good one here because um what we've done is developing sales

skills within the PS consultants and uh so that they can you know they have the technical skills they have sometimes they are very good at presenting at you

know connecting but not necessarily on another mindset which is like looking okay can I can I see an opportunity here to play something else. Sometimes we

tell them do it but they don't know how to do it. And uh so investing that time to to train your your people is uh could be like a massive positive impact

because then they would work more closely with their sales. They will

understand a bit more how they work. I

know sometimes you need to then manage the the issue where they would say, "Oh, but I'm the one who brought the deal and I closed it, so I should get the commission." Uh however you know it's

commission." Uh however you know it's like if you do the training then they start to understand sales is more than that is more than just like saying oh I found the lead you know it's a whole

process of you know closing a deal will you know it takes so many steps and that's why you've got people specialized in that but being able to to to create

those PS qualified leads in a way from the own PS organization is a key one. So

how do you do that? You invest in people's skills. you invest in

people's skills. you invest in developing their um sense of negotiation, influence and um you know

you've got courses on that. Um so but the key thing is also awareness and and quite often those skills are already internal. So it's creating those mini

internal. So it's creating those mini pods, you know, between sales, customer success and PS to exchange that knowledge and to learn a bit from from

each other. So yeah.

each other. So yeah.

Nice. Awesome. Uh

I think the the influence part and the you know sales skills u negotiation skill etc. makes a lot of sense. Um in

fact one of the things we are doing at Rocket Lane as well is uh we have a sales coach. We've had a sales coach for

sales coach. We've had a sales coach for a while but we're also okay getting the sales coach to work with our customer success team and uh PS team now. So

>> resonated with me. Uh so let's talk about you mentioned the human element uh in terms of uh you know

PS is finally about humans and how you sort of focused on developing them. But how do you think AI is going to impact PS delivery? Is it

still going to be about the human or is uh professional services going to become >> No, it's not professionals. It's AI

agent delivering all the services.

>> Delivering all the services. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh yeah, we had to Yeah. AI is

everywhere. Everybody's talking about it. Um

it. Um it's interesting for me. I'm, you know, I've got the two parts. I'm excited

about it because I see a lot of potential. I'm also scared about what

potential. I'm also scared about what some people can do with you know thinking like oh yeah I can cut down the PS team

by 50% because you know I can automate task I can create an AI agent avatar that will replace half of the consultant and you know I just need to give him the

knowledge that we have and uh I don't think this is going to work because again coming back to to the meaning it's all about human and we are selling to

human other you know on the other side the customers who are buying are still people so we need to be able to to manage that relationship what I'm saying

is like AI will help to accelerate enhance potentially what we are doing so let's say NPS project management is a

big part of it there's a lot of tasks that could be automated or accelerated like you know project management project tools now are including AI that will

help to to make things and you know it's not going to replace the project manager he will still have a role but he can focus more on the the key things which

is like confirming the business value to to to the customer managing the escalation which quite often are a human emotion it's like you know it's like oh that's not what we ask for and so you

know it's not a technical thing most of the time it's more like a perception and so project manager is is managing that plus managing the team managing the

budget and so on for the consultant I think it's the same it could help to give like some tools that we never had before which is like researching your client you know in advance I talk you

know the company looking at you know where they are you you can create summaries in in in a split second you know it's like rocket lane I can search it I say please give me you know the top

five things that Rocket Lane has done or published or you know if it's there if it's not hidden um you know it will find and quite often that helps for

communication and helping to understand sometimes some of the objectives that you know it's quite often when you're in a PS project trying to understand what is really driving

you know the the customer thinking why do they you know because we have those questions sometimes say that should be like this that's better. why are you trying to do it another way where we are

advising you and um and sometimes it's a constraints that they have due to their business or or the market and uh so yeah

so I see yeah the the power of that tool so coming back uh you know it's not going to replace um I hope not and uh I

I really think that we we need to to embrace it but where we need to double down is on in on our human skills is like you know as leaders as consultant

and uh because that's it's also you know I see it as leader it's like everybody's questioning that and uh in the tech industry it's it's quite tough at the

moment there's a lot of you know companies laying off there's a lot of you know job displacement we don't know yet if it's AI or not fully there but people are questioning it it's like is

that coming from me is that you know it's all about that emotional side of it that you know leaders needs to to develop a bit more and um being able to

manage that. Yeah.

manage that. Yeah.

>> Got it. And I think that you know again to your point about uh it's not about hey I can do the same thing with 50% of the people and bring

in AI. It's I think the balance to that

in AI. It's I think the balance to that is also increasing your ambition of what you want to do uh as a function. So yes,

we brought in the efficiency, but now we can offer more services to more customers or you know touch more customers every year. So I think that that balance should help.

>> Yeah. No, absolutely. I've been there.

Yeah, it's a good point uh Sh because you know redoing things every year you know so for example your templates are never up to date or you you know you you

redo you know a function that you created you know on on an ITSM software and every time you redevelop it slightly for the next customer you know all that

time sometimes is lost and you know and to be honest it's not the best result for the consultant you know they are much better than doing those minial task

or you know so here yeah I like that re refocusing that you mentioned absolutely I think that that could help and in fact that could make people happier in their

work if we are using correctly because they would think oh I bring more value I can focus more on the the things that is important is you know the the why we are

doing it is to help the customer it's it's a profession of service after all we are here to deliver a always. Yeah.

>> Right. Hopefully we move to a world where the professionals are figuring out what to do, deciding, finalizing and working with the customer. Okay.

Aligning >> and then the doing is done more and more with uh tech and AI. But you know changing tracks I think one of the things which

>> and I don't know how relevant this will be in the new world we go into but >> you know I think when we first caught up we were joking about the different ways in which organizations

>> want to measure utilization rate. Oh

yes, that's true.

>> And uh you know you know TSIA prescribes a certain way.

>> Uh different leaders have perspective on oh should we you know across geographies use the same denominator if you know hours are different should

we include the vacation days exclude the vacation days? What's the right way? Um

vacation days? What's the right way? Um

and I thought I remember you had some perspective on that. So I thought I'll throw it at you. How do you measure utilization?

>> Yeah, I I think there's no one size fits all. I

think that's the key thing. It's like um we know PS the biggest cost is the people because that that's you know the main value that we are bringing and

therefore what top management and finance like is something simple for them is like you know the more utilized you are so it means the more billable hours you do so the more revenue you

create and therefore I can you know pay your cost and pay other other part and make a profit for for the company so I understand that point of So after it's

like leading with something that is also manageable because what we need to one one wrong perspective is like when

people think if you're not billable you're doing nothing which is it's not everywhere but it still happens and I've seen it and in fact it's the complete

opposite. is like PS is always busy

opposite. is like PS is always busy because when you're not billable you're learning the next technology you're learning new ways of delivering project

you're learning about AI you're collaborating with sales pre-sales to create a new package offering because you've seen like an opportunity with the

customer that's we come back to the growth engine and the business within the business so if you see that as a business within the business your consultant could be involved in all the

part marketing sales post post sales you know so all of that is is very important so clarifying that and what I've seen that

can work is having also you know depending on the level you're at so a general consultant or solution architect a project manager you should have some level of flexibility in terms of the

measurements um after yeah uh so looking at you know 65 five 70% utilization uh standard you

know that could be uh interesting. I

know a lot of companies are pushing for the 80% which I've seen is is extremely difficult to to maintain and when it works usually people finish you know

quite you know drained um because it's it's yeah you've got no time left in fact and uh just time to write the the notes of the of the

meetings and and that's it. Yeah. So

yeah, it's a perspective. So yeah, it's a it's a difficult one to I think it's a it would be a con constant discussion, but I think it's a one that needs to be kept open. Yeah,

kept open. Yeah, >> I I actually love this perspective especially for today's time and age because with so much changing in the

world around us with AI, I think even more important for our consultants to have that extra time to invest in their own learning and then to apply that learning to

>> you know outside of you can't go directly and apply it in a customer project. You need your playground and

project. You need your playground and you know playtime in a way.

>> Yeah. to try out things, experiment, and then figure out, okay, here's how we're going to evolve and have a step function change. So, I think

change. So, I think it almost feels like based on what you said, I I would say go for a lower billable utilization target, but like a

nice high productive utilization target where people are spending more time on learning and experimentation in in today's world.

>> Yeah. And you you're you're touching productivity is a key word here because you could have a lower billable utilization but you're more productive

for your customer and what is important is the revenue you're generating as well. So um and then you you you satisfy

well. So um and then you you you satisfy everybody because I understand you know some you know midsize consultancies are

quite lean so you know uh losing 5% of utilization is a big impact on their revenue potentially and profitability so you need to think but it's a time where

things are changing so fast that you need a bit of faith and investment in your people otherwise it will go elsewhere that's the other problem It's like they will say, "Oh, I've seen, you

know, these other consultancies, they, you know, invest in their people to learn AI. They've got like every Friday

learn AI. They've got like every Friday afternoon, it's like a an AI workshop."

And, um, I've I've heard some companies that are doing that and it's across the board, which is fantastic. It's like

it's they just do AI across sales, CS, PS, and and it's it's every single Friday, and they took it off of everybody. So they've adapted the the

everybody. So they've adapted the the you know utilization target based on that. Yeah,

that. Yeah, >> makes a lot of sense. Thank you Maxim.

We're at the very end of the podcast but I have you know >> couple of uh fun questions for you just to you know how you think about this.

>> So >> we're recording this in August 2025.

I just want your take on Nvidia as a company. Buy or sell and why?

company. Buy or sell and why?

>> Ah, you you need you need some money to buy now because became really expensive. Um,

it's a good question. I I've I've seen Yeah, there there's a lot on in the price at the moment. They're still

growing up, but there starting to get some more competition going in. And uh

so even some people were saying yeah maybe it's the time to sell but yeah I I still think yeah it's still a good investment at the moment. It's AI is is

still booming at the moment. So yeah

it's a tricky >> it's just my way of gauging uh how bullish you are on AI.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Would you invest in in video >> you know really long term? Yes. Uh

>> I I think uh shortterm there is so much ups and downs from uh all the political things as well that happen that you know it's I think in a way it also gives more

opportunities to enter >> but yeah it's it's been an interesting time.

>> Yeah.

>> Great. Um, is there a movie or book that inspires you?

>> So, yeah, I've got I've got a a fun one.

It's like a movie. Um, it's not the best movie in the world. It's Jerry Maguire uh with Tom Cruz and uh I just I don't

know why this is the movie that every time I finish it, I'm always feeling pumped up and uh with energy. So in

terms of inspiring you know to follow your dreams to to be uh you know a bit against the the wind and not you know

and starting something where you don't know where it's going to go and pushing through it. Yeah it's but there's some

through it. Yeah it's but there's some nice you know emotional element also in in the movie and being closer to the people. I think that's maybe what is

people. I think that's maybe what is talking to me. So we go full circle with the start is like you know it's all about the people uh again and the relationship and you know so managing a

business and focusing more on your your your client and being closer to them.

Yeah. So I think that's why it's resonating with me. Yeah. Yeah. It's

funny. I'm just realizing that by talking about it more. Yeah.

>> Perfect. Thank you so much Maxim. It was

great chatting with you today for our episode. Thanks for taking the time and

episode. Thanks for taking the time and joining us on this.

>> Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you, Shri.