Evan Spiegel, Snapchat: Building a Multi-Billion Dollar Company

super excited to talk to you. Uh we've

been talking a bunch before we started recording. I did a podcast on you like

recording. I did a podcast on you like almost 10 years ago. It's episode I think 22 of Founders based on this book on how to turn down a billion dollars.

The thing that stuck out to me the most that when I read that book cuz a lot of that story takes place when you're like still in college and you're talking about two of your entrepreneur heroes and Steve Jobs makes sense, my

entrepreneur hero too. But you mentioned this guy named Edwin Land and I'm reading this I'm like how the [ __ ] does a 21-y old kid even know who Edwin Land is? I've done like 10 podcasts on him,

is? I've done like 10 podcasts on him, read every single biography. Tell me

what like how you discovered Edwin Land and what you admired about him.

Yeah, I I think you know he's so central to the history of photography and so you know as we've set out to try to reinvent the camera and how people express themselves with the camera, we studied a lot you know about the evolution of the camera over time. I mean, one of the

funny stories that we found out, the first selfie ever was taken by a guy named Robert Cornelius. And the my co-founder Bobby, his name is Robert Cornelius Murphy. So, like we we found

Cornelius Murphy. So, like we we found just like by un unpacking like the history of of photography a lot of interesting, you know, similarities and parallels. And we've learned a ton from

parallels. And we've learned a ton from founders like Edwin Land who transformed photography really by focusing on building amazing products and thinking about, you know, how to make sure those

products fit into people's lives and uplifted humanity. I think, you know, if

uplifted humanity. I think, you know, if you look at instant photography and the role that that played in people's lives, Edwin thought of the camera as something that was incredibly personal, right? And

and I think um as we've looked at the the sort of trajectory of technology over the long arc of time, technology gets more and more and more and more personal. And so I think as technology

personal. And so I think as technology gets more deeply interwoven in our lives, the founders who are thinking about making technology more personal uh and how it, you know, how the how the things they're inventing like fit into

and support humanity, I think that's a real advantage. But how does a

real advantage. But how does a 21-year-old kid decide because you even said it in the book that you're like, I want to build a company at the intersection of technology and liberal arts? What was happening that you were

arts? What was happening that you were interested like in doing that? Part of

it was my background growing up. So I

went to school uh in Santa Monica here uh you know and uh a school called Crossroads. Uh Crossroads, you know,

Crossroads. Uh Crossroads, you know, it's the the full name for Crossroads actually crossroads school for arts and sciences. So it actually is, you know,

sciences. So it actually is, you know, the intersection of science and and art together. And actually a lot of what the

together. And actually a lot of what the school is focused on is developing empathy, building empathy. And they have this thing called council for example where you sit with about 12 other students and you know speak from the

heart uh and take turns expressing yourself. And the school's really

yourself. And the school's really oriented on on how you build strong relationships, build empathy with other people. And so I I literally I I grew up

people. And so I I literally I I grew up at a school that was so focused on the intersection of art and science, but then also wrapped all of it in, you know, a commitment to humanity, to understanding one another, to building

relationships, you know, to giving back.

I mean, the school is very anchored in community service. Uh our our three of

community service. Uh our our three of our kids go there, uh now, which is fun.

Uh some of the teachers are still there, but I think a lot of it was from my upbringing and that being a real focus.

And then, you know, as I as I got a bit older and I got, you know, into things like graphic design and I built my own computer, I was always sort of working at that intersection of of art and and technology.

Yeah. I think the perception of you is like you're like this cool like, you know, designer, but you actually self-described as like a nerd growing up.

My wife and I always joke it's cool to be uncool. So, I definitely don't think

be uncool. So, I definitely don't think of myself as cool. Uh, and and my background really was, you know, in the computer lab. I mean I it's it's one of

computer lab. I mean I it's it's one of the things that also inspired a lot of the work that we do because as I reflect on growing up one of my frustrations or disappointments with the way that

computers have been built over time is that they actually pulled us away from one another. So growing up you know

one another. So growing up you know during lunch rather than being on the recess yard running around with my friends I was so inspired by what computers could do I was obsessed with computers. So, I was in the computer lab

computers. So, I was in the computer lab all day long. And computers, I think, you know, whether it was the mainframe or the desktop, you know, have have sort of pulled us away from one another, away from society, brought us indoors, right,

into this very like single player uh experience. And so, a lot of what I've

experience. And so, a lot of what I've thought about and a lot of what has inspired me is like how do we take all these extraordinary benefits that computing bring to the brings to the world, but actually use it to support our connections with one another, our connections to the world. Can we build a

computer that brings us outside, right, that we use together with friends?

Because I think, you know, one of the side effects of my love of technology growing up was that it pulled me away from, you know, more social relationships or or just running around playing on the schoolyard.

So, wait, you had that philosophy even back then when you were in your 20s?

Yeah. I mean, that that's a lot of like what inspired how we thought about the evolution of Snapchat. I mean, even basic things like opening into the camera, right? It opens into your

camera, right? It opens into your experience of the world, right? Not, you

know, a feed of content from other people, not a a messaging feed alerting you to what other people are sending you. literally opens into your

you. literally opens into your experience. And so from the very

experience. And so from the very beginning, we've thought about like how do we ground your experience of computing like in what what is right in front of you in the present moment and inspire you to create from that.

Why do you think that the way computing was before it would just isolate you? So

essentially you're just staring at a screen getting materials pushed to you.

I think the early versions of computers just given their physical and technological constraints, right? Like

whether it was a mainframe you had to go to like a building to use a computer, right? Or a desktop that you had to keep

right? Or a desktop that you had to keep plugged into the wall. I think those physical constraints pulled you out of whatever environment you want to be in.

I think the laptop and the and the mobile, you know, mobile phones are representative of this continuum of computing getting more personal. But I

think today people feel like, you know, I think they're spending seven or eight hours on average staring at screens.

They feel like screens are pulling them out of the moment or away from friends or when they're at the dinner table, they're looking at a phone instead of connecting with one another. And so to me there's this big question of like how do we get all these amazing benefits of

computing but in a way that actually connect us with one another, connect us to the outdoors, connect us to the world. Um and that's so much of what

world. Um and that's so much of what we're working on. If you like just came to if you were an alien, you came to Earth. I remember like walking um like

Earth. I remember like walking um like to pick up my daughter from school, you could either sit in the car line, right, or you could get out and like pick them up. And this is like many years ago. And

up. And this is like many years ago. And

so I had to I was like I'm going to walk and I passed by 30 cars and every single person in the line waiting to pick up their kid was staring at the phone. I'm

like that's not like that's an addiction. Like that is a crazy thing. I

addiction. Like that is a crazy thing. I

was walking on the beach here the other day. This lady almost ran into me. This

day. This lady almost ran into me. This

is a beautiful freaking beach and she almost ran into me cuz she was looking at the phone. I was like there's mountains and the Pacific Ocean here.

What are you doing? That's a crazy thing to do. Is there anything else from Edwin

to do. Is there anything else from Edwin Land that like you that inspired you or that you think like you used either in the beginning of Snap or now?

Before we jump into Edwin, two things you said just like really inspired inspired me. The first was like uh

inspired me. The first was like uh school drop off. Like our kids insist that I walk them in every day. So I'm

like I'm used to doing the long walk in while everyone's in the in the car poolool line. But I think to your point

poolool line. But I think to your point what's fun about that is you get to connect with everyone and say hi to you know other parents and teachers and you know as I mentioned some of the teachers that actually taught me when I when I was there. But the second thing you

was there. But the second thing you said, which which is so funny, my daydreaming right now, especially as we think about glasses and the future of computing, is really like what if aliens are watching Earth right now and they're

like terrified that smartphones have like taken over humanity that like we're spending all day long like caring for these things and like plugging them in and like tending to them and like our lives are all oriented around like these

little screens. Um, and like what would

little screens. Um, and like what would aliens do? And so like part of my

aliens do? And so like part of my imagination has been like what if aliens are sending specs, sending these glasses to save people from uh you know their lives that I think it becomes so oriented around around screen. So it's

funny that you it's funny you mentioned that. I love I love thinking about that

that. I love I love thinking about that like the alien perspective of of uh humanity right now.

I think for for Edwin Land I mean there's a couple other things that like really stood out to me. One he was a statesman, right? And like behind the

statesman, right? And like behind the scenes people really relied on his advice and he gave it freely. I mean he was a a big supporter of the US government for example was very thoughtful behind the scenes in

providing advice to the US government including technological advice and and so I like that he had a commitment beyond just like you know his customers and creativity and these sorts of things he really wanted to participate in

building a better world um and and took that really seriously and then I think if you look at a lot of his um you know a lot of the the investments he made around his laboratories and around his

innovation he was he was famous actually and and back then this was quite unique, famous for uplifting women in those research roles, right? And I think like he was a real champion of talent. He saw

talent very clearly. Um, you know, and I think uh, you know, at a time when people weren't weren't as focused on that, weren't investing as much in that.

He was really focused on uplifting the best possible talent regardless of folks background.

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We're both in LA. We both kind of avoid San Francisco and we were talking it's like the people I admire the most like Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is trying to

Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs is trying to create technology that enhance humanity.

Some of these weirdos in San Francisco are creating technology to eliminate humanity.

Why is it so important for you to to build technology that actually enhances humanity?

Well, I I I think I think fundamentally like my source of inspiration is humanity, right? Like I'm

inspired by other people. I'm inspired

by, you know, the extraordinary world that humans have have created. I'm

inspired by the relationships between people and my relationships with other people. And so so much of what motivates

people. And so so much of what motivates me and animates what I like to do is about making people's lives better, right? And solving their their problems.

right? And solving their their problems. I mean that's you know we we all get to choose what we do when we get up in the morning like that's that's what I like to do and what I want to want to contribute to the world and I think you know the the challenging thing I think

is you know sometimes when you're working on new technology it's so exciting and inspiring that you can lose focus on its impact on on people and I think we try to start with people right and really listen to people and what

they respond to how they're feeling about the products they're using I mean that's that's one of the you know that was the core inspiration of of stories right was you know people were saying why is my social media feed in reverse chronological order. Why is it

chronological order. Why is it permanent? Why am I feeling judged all

permanent? Why am I feeling judged all the time, you know, by how many likes or comments I have? That made us realize like the way that people have told stories forever, right, is in chronological order. Uh they're not, you

chronological order. Uh they're not, you know, permanently saved forever and publicly judged and liked and that sort of thing. And so it was just very easy

of thing. And so it was just very easy for us to, you know, develop a, you know, a product where, you know, everything, all the images and videos were in chronological order. They

deleted after 24 hours. You could start your day fresh the next day. uh they

didn't have these likes and comments which opened up this whole new world of self-expression, right? Because instead

self-expression, right? Because instead of just trying to post what would look pretty or popular or perfect, people were sharing this whole range of human emotions. So, so much of what we do and

emotions. So, so much of what we do and what we're inspired by is just, you know, by the way people feel, what they share with us and and really this desire to help people build stronger relationships with one another. I read

this book about you, the one I did an episode on, you know, eight years ago. I

think it's like how to turn down a billion dollars or something. He says

something funny in the there's a quote from you in the book. You're like,

"Whoever invented the internet, why they decided to make everything permanent?"

It's completely opposite. It's like this conversation, we haven't recorded yet, but the conversation we just had earlier, it's like that wasn't recorded.

It was just a moment in time. We'll have

memories of it, like inter different interpretations of it, but then we just move on to the next. I think that's a really good example of the way technology ends up shaping human behavior. So, if we're not thoughtful

behavior. So, if we're not thoughtful enough about the technology we're building, it can have unintended consequences. So in this case, you know,

consequences. So in this case, you know, one of the reasons why everything was saved forever is because hard drives, disc based hard drives, right, were expensive to write over. And so it was actually more expensive to go back and

write over something enough to delete it than it was to just leave it there and write over it again maybe sometime in the future when you want to save something new. And so no one was

something new. And so no one was thinking about, you know, how to how to erase things because it was just much easier to leave it there uh and, you know, maybe maybe write over it when you had something new to save. And so a lot of the early work we even did with

Snapchat was asking about how we can be certain that everything is deleted, right? And how we can make sure uh that

right? And how we can make sure uh that everything is being written over because that wasn't a consideration uh for a really long time.

So in a very Edwin Landian um way, you seem to like observe what everybody's doing and you have like this natural in inclination to like go your own path, but you had it at the very beginning.

How old were you when you started Peekaboo, which turns into Snapchat? I

think I was probably I think 20.

Where did this this desire to like do something different come from?

My dad was always pushing me to get a job when I was younger. Like if I was ever around the house, he'd be like, "What are you doing here?" Like get a job, right? So I interned uh at Red

job, right? So I interned uh at Red Bull, for example. I interned at a Brais Bioscience. I mean, this was back in the

Bioscience. I mean, this was back in the day when we were racking GPUs to do like early stage drug discovery. I mean, that was like my first experience with GPUs, like however many, you know, when I was in high school. Um, you know, and then

I, uh, I had I had a couple other really cool internships, but but really my first like more serious job was working at into it. Um, and working on this service called text web, which was uh,

basically designed to help people with um, touch like touchpad uh, mobile phones build little micro websites essentially and access them primarily in

India at the time. Um and so I had learned all these you know really interesting things about business during these internships but fundamentally I

didn't really want to have a boss but until I saw how possible it was to build something amazing like with text web I think there was like three of us on the team I I you know I did the least out of

out of the team members but the the three of us on the team or four of us on the team were actually able to like build and launch a service in India right I was like wow like it's actually a lot easier uh than I fought to build

things and to to create things that can reach, you know, millions of millions of people. And so that really inspired me.

people. And so that really inspired me.

And simultaneously, I you know, I had lived across the hall from Bobby who I ended up starting uh Peekaboo Snapchat with. Um and he also, you know, he he

with. Um and he also, you know, he he had a job at the time, too. And and we both just loved building things. So we

started working on this thing called Future Freshman, which was designed to help people get into college. It was

like a total failure, but we had loved working together. This is an important

working together. This is an important part. Can you tell say why? because I

part. Can you tell say why? because I

think you took an idea from there for your next business why it failed.

Yeah, I mean there were a number of reasons why it failed. I think first of all we we really focused on building the perfect product for way too long before we got feedback. So, you know, I think

we worked for like 18 months to build this perfect fullfeatured product, which was like in direct contravention to like how I was always taught to build things, right? Which is like build a prototype,

right? Which is like build a prototype, build an MVP, get in front of people, learn as quickly as possible. Um, but we had we had spent all this time building this like perfect piece of software and we hadn't thought enough about

distribution. And so while we built this

distribution. And so while we built this great piece of software, our competitor at the time called Naviance, which I think still today is probably the leader in like this college application sort of software world, they had secured

distribution through all the different uh college counselors, right? So like

what piece of software you going to choose to help your kid get into college? The one recommended by the

college? The one recommended by the college counselors or the one, you know, from two kids at at Stanford? I mean, I think it's a pretty easy it's a pretty easy choice. So we just saw very early

easy choice. So we just saw very early that we had no distribution advantage and, you know, even if we loved our software that people weren't going to use it. um because we didn't really have

use it. um because we didn't really have a scalable way to get in people's hands.

And so around that time when we saw the emergence of the app store on iPhone and all this sort of thing, it was very clear that that was a distribution channel that we could really use and benefit from. Um but that we also needed

benefit from. Um but that we also needed to build things that we could build quickly, things that we really were going to use together with our friends so that we could be the first early customers. Um and ultimately ultimately

customers. Um and ultimately ultimately Pikaboo and and Snapchat uh you know um represented that.

Yeah. Because in the book you talked about we build a product, no one used it.

It's tough when no one used it except my mom. So

mom. So move on to the next thing. So is

Peekabboo, which turns obviously Snapchat. Was that was there anything in

Snapchat. Was that was there anything in between those two or was it there were a couple other like you know failed sort of uh experiments I would say in between that we were playing around with like different ideas for

sort of like more private like I wouldn't say social networks but more private like groups and social sharing and things like that you know but nothing nothing uh that really but it seemed like it was a direct

counter to the existing social networks at the time. Yeah, I mean the the problem that we were experiencing was that, you know, the way that everyone was socializing at the time on on Facebook and I think Instagram was sort

of just getting started at the time, but the way that everyone was socializing on Facebook was like a giant popularity contest. So, it wasn't fun, right? I

contest. So, it wasn't fun, right? I

mean, everyone was competing for how many friends they had, how many likes they had. Everything was about pretty

they had. Everything was about pretty photos. And in college, like we we

photos. And in college, like we we wanted to have fun with our friends, but the alternatives, you know, at the time with text messaging, for example, were so clunky. I mean, if sending a people

so clunky. I mean, if sending a people forget like sending an image via text message back then took like a minute, two minutes, right? Like to send uh MMS uh you know, it's it was crazy. And so

part of the core invention of Snapchat was actually just making it really fast to send images, you know, which which made a huge difference in people's ability to use images to communicate because back then, you know, images were

for documenting things. They were for saving memories forever, right? And the

reason why like photography has exploded and the you know I think there are more there are more selfies taken on Snapchat than on iPhone in total right which is a crazy stat. Um but that's because people

crazy stat. Um but that's because people are using images to communicate. And so

like we we you know in inventing Snapchat in response to kind of this documentary culture around photography and this feeling of public and public pressure about the way that people were expressing themselves and communicating

online. Snapchat really especially

online. Snapchat really especially because the camera was on the smartphone transformed the way that people communicate by allowing them to communicate with images.

So did you think you were building a messaging app or a social network?

A me I mean it's a it's it's a messaging service. We we

service. We we but even back then Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

We thought about as messaging app.

Yeah. And we talked I mean it only had messaging for the longest time until we introduced stories. I mean it was only a

introduced stories. I mean it was only a messaging. stories is like got to be one

messaging. stories is like got to be one of the best inventions ever in terms of like the apps that we use like how I mean now obviously everybody like it's on every single app like you you were the first one to come up with that and

it's I think there's like stories on LinkedIn and like Pinterest or some [ __ ] now like it's just places they shouldn't be it's there going back to to the early days of the smartphone if you remember

you know Apple was really talking about like hey when you're going to watch video on your your iPhone you're going to turn the video the the phone sideways, right? And watch horizontal

sideways, right? And watch horizontal video. And a lot of, you know, in the

video. And a lot of, you know, in the the first year, you know, several years of of Snapchat, almost all video online was like horizontal video in the feed.

And so when we came out with vertical video and we said, no, we think everyone's going to watch video the same way they hold their phone all day long, right? Vertically, where people were

right? Vertically, where people were like, what? You know, we had to we

like, what? You know, we had to we spent, you know, a ton of money at back back then without AI, right? Like just

helping advertisers recut their video to make it vertical. And we had to convince them, showing them that like the completion rate was ner size horizontal videos. But for us, like it was just obvious, right? That people

were going to want to watch video the same way they hold their their their phone. They don't want to turn their

phone. They don't want to turn their phone to to watch video. But do you see what I keep trying to get to? And like

this is not normal though. Like you you you're very comfortable. I'm trying to figure out because like the whole point of me having these conversations like this entire show is just like who am I intensely interested in talking to and

there's something interesting like I'm I still don't understand where the hell did this like confidence in your own judgment and disregard for the need to conform come from cuz it's obviously

still there today. Like let me give you some background. I remember the first uh

some background. I remember the first uh version of Spectacles, the ones you you bought in a uh in a vending machine. I

bought them. I wanted them so badly and you were out of stock. I bought the like the ugly [ __ ] blue color.

I did not want bright blue [ __ ] glasses. I'm a grown ass man. But I was

glasses. I'm a grown ass man. But I was like, "These are this is so weird. This

is so interesting." And you were like 10 years ahead of everybody else. Where the

hell does that come from?

You know, I I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly. You know, I think like a lot of

exactly. You know, I think like a lot of this stuff just like really appears obvious to me and to us, right? Like it

it's it was obvious to me that you know if you looked at the evolution of computing that like holding this tiny little screen in your hands was not the future of computers. Like it makes absolutely no sense especially for

humans that want to like live and work hands-free, right? That want to be able

hands-free, right? That want to be able to see one another and like interact with the world. And so I think when like things like that just seems so just seems so obvious and and we're

fortunate, right, to be able to invest consistently behind that vision because I think like the hard part is not necessarily seeing what the future could look like. I think a lot of people have

look like. I think a lot of people have different visions for the future. I

think the thing that's been maybe different about Snap or Snapchat is like our determination and consistency in pursuing that vision. I mean with stories, right? Like that you know the

stories, right? Like that you know the first six months of stories, no one used it. I mean, I remember sitting in a

it. I mean, I remember sitting in a board meeting and we were like, we think stories is going to be a big thing. You

know what I mean? Like, this is the, you know, we think this is like the future of how people are gonna, you know, want to share, uh, you know, on internet services on Snapchat and the board's like, well, no one's using it, you know,

and we're like, okay, but it's new, so it's going to take time, so like, let's give people time to discover it, to learn about the feature, and then, you know, maybe by the next board meeting or the one after that, like it was growing super rapidly. So I think you know the

super rapidly. So I think you know the the hard part is not necessarily having the vision for the future and and often times it's just seems very obvious. The

the hard part is delivering it right getting there.

Were you disagreeable when you were a kid?

I think so. Probably.

If I ask him the people you have working with you is Evan disagreeable would they say yes?

Strong opinions loosely held. No. I

think um I yeah I I think like I I think I've always felt comfortable seeing something differently or advocating for something different.

Would people that work with you describe you as uncompromising?

I think so. Yeah.

Okay. There's a Steve Jobs element.

Yeah. But but at the same time like we've tried to build a really different culture because like one of my one of my you know that you mentioned the Walter Isaxson book like that book broke my heart right because I think that that

book you know that book essentially called Steve a bad father which I thought was not not only unfair but it also

you know sort of made the case that like Steve believed that like you could only achieve these sorts of things if you were you know uncompromising but uncompromising with a a taste of mean

essentially.

And for me watching Steve and seeing how people spoke about him and you know there there are plenty of stories of you know folks who felt really close to Steve and felt really inspired by Steve

and also stories of people who felt like Steve was me, right? And my big question to our team was like could we achieve something really extraordinary? Could we

build a culture that was incredibly creative but at the same time is kind.

Right? So when with our three values, it's kind, smart, creative. And kind is the first one for a reason. And what we really wanted to do was create a culture that's uncompromising, but at the same time very kind, and supportive because

that we think that that is, you know, the best sort of and most fertile ground for creativity. If people feel afraid,

for creativity. If people feel afraid, it's very very hard to be creative. I

mean, fear is almost like the the opposite of of of creativity.

There's actually Did you ever read Ed Catmill, the founder of Pixar, his his autobiography called Creativity?

No, I always wanted to.

Okay, that's another book. I just gave you one book. I'll give you another one.

But you can Ed's actually doing the show and I can't wait to talk to him cuz he worked for Steve Jobs or worked with Steve Jobs longer uh more consecutive years than anybody else. I think they worked together for like 24 years.

I would just buy the book today and just skip to the end. There's a like a 20page afterward called the Steve we knew. And his whole point after the

knew. And his whole point after the Isacson book came out, he's like he wasn't that's not the Steve I knew. And

they his point was that in earlier in his career there was a lot of these stories. Yes, he was like that, but he

stories. Yes, he was like that, but he learned and evolved on how to be a better leader. And so in that like 20

better leader. And so in that like 20 page afterward, Ed is telling the story of how he evolved over time.

[ __ ] 45year-old Steve Jobs is not of course not going to be the same as 21-year-old Steve Jobs.

So I think that's like a very important point to make. How do you reconcile though? Because like there's a lot of

though? Because like there's a lot of people that are famous about this like uh uh Elon. I just heard somebody was telling me a story. Michael Morris from Sequoia said the same thing that like you actually camaraderie is dangerous

and kindness is dangerous for your teammates because you can't deliver honest feedback and like tell them if their work isn't up to par or whatever.

How do you how do you balance that? Like

be kind but also honest if the quality of the work isn't there?

Well, I think there's a big difference between kind and nice.

Okay, huge difference. When you're being kind, it means you really want the best for somebody, right? And sometimes that means a tough conversation. Sometimes

that means this means saying we're just not there yet on this project we're working on or hey the way that you deliver that like really isn't working or whatever it is. Nice is about making people feel good right kind is about

wanting the best for them. And so I think for us our culture is oriented around kindness which is a much deeper expression of care for somebody else and involves tough conversations. One of the great things about having a best friend

or, you know, a a partner is that they're honest with you, right, about your shortcomings and help you evolve and make you better. And that comes from a place of love, right? And so I think

kindness in in many ways is essential because it allows people to hear that feedback. So one of the big problems I

feedback. So one of the big problems I think um you know in a more hostile work environment is people are more resistant to feedback because they don't hear it coming from that positive place of wanting you to grow and develop. And I

think that expression of kindness for us is is one of the things that helps people grow fast, right? And ultimately

at a company like Snap, our goal is just help people grow as fast as humanly possible. Um, you know, so that we can

possible. Um, you know, so that we can meet the needs of our customers and evolve our business, etc. Who plays that role for you? Who tells

you the truth?

My wife is uh brutally honest in a very loving way. uh in a very loving way and

loving way. uh in a very loving way and it's super important. But I also, you know, I I grew up with and one of the things I love about being in LA is a lot of my high school buddies are here, right? So I have friends who, you know,

right? So I have friends who, you know, I've grown up with who've always been real with me and, you know, that's a huge benefit of being here in LA because when I get to hang out with my friends and talk to them about what I'm going

through or what's going on, like I can count on them, you know, to to be honest.

I think of like what Charlie Mer said.

He says, "Anybody engaged in complex work," this is a paraphrase of his quote, "eo, anybody engaged in complex work, uh, it's very useful to find somebody to help organize your thoughts with." And I think he was referencing

with." And I think he was referencing really, you know, the the role he played with Buffett, where, you know, Buffett was the main guy, obviously was 100 times richer than than Charlie,

but Buffett knew that Munger was special, and he let Munger shape his mind. Do you have anybody like that? Not

mind. Do you have anybody like that? Not

like a high school friends are different, like they were more like peers or have like an understanding. you

have a very unique lived experience for somebody that's, you know, still in their mid30s.

Yeah, I think, you know, Bobby, who's my co-founder, has really been that for me.

Um, and I think we approach the world differently and see the world differently. So, I think that's really

differently. So, I think that's really valuable. But, but I would say like I

valuable. But, but I would say like I rely on our leadership team and and broadly our company to help me do that.

I mean, that's that's the fun part about innovating is it's a dialogue, right?

It's not like issuing command like let's go build this. It's like having a a real intense debate and dialogue about what's best for our customer and what we should do, what we should prioritize. So I

think like for me it would be a real shame if I only got that from, you know, maybe if it was Charlie Munger, I'd feel differently, you know, but but I think for me what's so important is to make sure I'm getting that sort of feedback and having that kind of dialogue with

lots of members of our team or or mentors as well. Um, you know, that that's that's a hugely valuable.

What does the leadership team look like?

You know, it's it's probably on on like the the Snapchat side, it's like roughly 10 10 or so people and like you know, it's it's funny even in the architecture of our building, right? Like we we have

a circle table, right? Uh for a reason.

I really like everyone to sit around a circle and have a dialogue where we're all talking from an equal position around that table, right? So like that like it's that sort of mentality where

like everyone is expected to contribute, everyone has an equal seat around the table that you get that sort of really helpful dialogue.

Are these people that started at Snap and like got through the ranks? Are they

former founders? The reason I asked you is because one of the most interesting um ideas or surprising ideas I've had uh so far been having these conversations is I talked to Toby Luke the founder of Shopify which was like that that conversation blew my mind the way this

guy thinks and he was going through a very difficult time and he didn't know what to do and he actually tells a story on the podcast I think where he's like he went to the Slack channel and they had like former founders and he's just

like I need your help and he essentially built very much like Rockefeller did like built an the team around him is just founders. Is that what yours look

just founders. Is that what yours look like? Is it people that you po like

like? Is it people that you po like poached from other companies? Like what

what does this look like?

I would say it's incredibly diverse set of backgrounds. Some folks are from

of backgrounds. Some folks are from other companies. Some folks, you know,

other companies. Some folks, you know, have have spent their entire career at Snap, you know, more or less. Uh some,

you know, some folks around the table are are founders, right, who have joined Snap. So, uh there there isn't like a

Snap. So, uh there there isn't like a one, you know, one-sizefits-all model. I

think we're really fortunate to draw from lots of different backgrounds.

Is there a lot of turnover? I would say at points in Snap's history, there has been a lot of turnover. Uh, not

currently. I mean, knock on wood. Um,

but the business changed so quickly, right? I mean, there were periods of

right? I mean, there were periods of time when we went from, you know, having a hundred people to over a thousand people in like 18 months, right? And

like the skill sets that like we we were slow to build what we needed to support um, you know, that scale of a team. And

back then there weren't the AI tools that are available today that make a lot of those things easier, right? um to

operate at that at that scale and that quickly. But yeah, there are periods

quickly. But yeah, there are periods where the company has just changed a lot and it's required a different skill set.

And during those periods of intense change, we have seen turnover. I mean

sometimes intentional, sometimes unintentional because folks, you know, maybe are misaligned with where we're trying to take the company.

Yeah. The reason I ask is because I think conversations like these, the other podcast founders podcast that I'm doing, I think it's important for entrepreneurs realize like there's not like one right way to do things. Toby

told me he's like there's like there's probably a hundred right answers here.

You got to do the one that's best for you. And so I'm just curious like do you

you. And so I'm just curious like do you have a philosophy on like turning over the the top people of the team? Because

like if you look at like Larry Ellison, you read biographies at him. He thought

the fact that he kept the core product team, the core product team on Oracle together for like multiple decades was a huge advantage. His person he mentors,

huge advantage. His person he mentors, if you ask Elon who he admires, he says Larry Ellison, he's like I want fresh blood, I think is the term over and over again. Do you have a an opinion here?

again. Do you have a an opinion here?

I think it's different in different parts of the organization. You know, if you look at the core, like the core product and design team, that's a very small team. I mean, I think it's like

small team. I mean, I think it's like currently like nine people. It usually

fluctuates between like 8 and 12 people um at any given time. Many of the folks on that team have been at the company for an incredibly long period of time.

And they usually join out of school like at right out of high school uh or sorry, right out of college. I don't think we've had we've had some interns, but no one joined right out out of high school.

They typically join right out of college. And you know, we spend a huge

college. And you know, we spend a huge amount of time investing in their growth and building things together and and so I think it's really important uh to have that you know longevity because those are folks who really understand how we

build products uh at Snap and that's something that like I think really has to be learned. I I haven't found anyone who just been able to like enter Snap and you know uh and I mean certainly

folks can contribute right away but it takes time to learn you know what makes Snap.

Say say more about that. That's

interesting. Why does it take so long?

Because ultimately, like I think the way that we build products at Snapchat is just fundamentally different than anywhere else in the in the world. And so I've yet to see

the world. And so I've yet to see someone come into Snapchat with all the skills and all the understanding necessary to be able to like really deliver value in that role. The closest

we come are probably folks out of art school because they're used to such a rapid iteration process and are used to making things in extremely high volume.

And so they are a good fit for the the design culture at Snap, which is really about very rapid idea generation and creation. I mean, every week I'm with

creation. I mean, every week I'm with our design team for several hours and we're just looking at new work. I mean,

new work every week, hundreds of ideas, right? Hundreds of concepts, you know,

right? Hundreds of concepts, you know, iteration, etc. and really going, you know, kind of together as a group working through like a critique process.

And so I think um, you know, the art school folks are pro adapt the easiest to that culture because they're used to such a rapid velocity of work, but at the same time, we're really trying to

overlay that deep empathy for people, right? That deep connection with how our

right? That deep connection with how our community feels and what they're looking for. Um, you know, we're we're also

for. Um, you know, we're we're also trying to cultivate like a a very positive and fun uh environment around that. Like we're laughing half

around that. Like we're laughing half the time in these design meetings, right? And and playing around with

right? And and playing around with ideas. And I think creativity can really

ideas. And I think creativity can really thrive in that environment of like levity and fun. Um, and so I think that combination and that velocity of of

creativity and product development is something that people have to adapt to typically when they come to Snapchat.

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If I was to sit in on one of these design meetings, you said there's like nine to 10 12 people and you like what would I see? You would just be looking

at a ton of work. I mean, we would just be talking through, you know, a huge volume of ideas across the service or maybe even ideas for new services and that sort of thing. Um, for a couple

hours.

These last a couple hours. They're going

over when you say volume like can like hundreds of ideas.

Yeah. Yeah. Easily. Yeah.

In a few hours. Yeah. Yeah.

And are you like leading this discussion like how Yeah. We're all but we're all

Yeah. We're all but we're all contributing batting stuff around laugh you know what I mean laughing and iterating and you know why is the volume part so important because the best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas. It is critical

and the most toxic thing you can have is people attached to attached to an idea instead of constantly thinking about like ideas are are free right there

should be a zillion of them. And if we can do that and create that culture where there's like just a an endless flow of ideas, you're very lucky. You're

you're you're much more likely to get lucky by by finding good ones.

So how many of these do users of Snap ever see? Tiny tiny fra I mean less than 1% probably maybe 1%.

And what's the process like comes up like how soon from come it comes an idea comes up in the meeting to you like it it gets in front of one of your users.

Well now that's happening incredibly quickly because designers can ship code with you know all these new AI tools. So

the whole world of design is changing I think very rapidly because now you know many of our designers are just empowered if if they've got something we think it's cool let's you know let's get it in the app and test it like immediately. So

I think design to code is happening way faster than ever before.

So there's an intense design culture at Snap. There always has been. You

Snap. There always has been. You

describe yourself as a designer.

Yeah I think I mean that's my background.

Yeah. And that's what you describe like when you started. That's right. And so

talk a little bit about like what you think AI will do to a company like your yours where it seems to be like a design first culture.

I think AI is like probably the best thing that's ever happened to to Snapchat, which is great. Um I think the reason why is because we've always had a ton of ideas and a deep connection with

our community and our customer, but we've always had very limited resources and we're up against monopolistic companies. And so we've essentially been

companies. And so we've essentially been engaged in like trench warfare with monopolies for 15 years, right? And I

think what's so funny like you know you look at the last 15 years we learned very very early on that there's no moat in software which was an incredibly powerful lesson right all of our ideas

the things that we invent people just try to copy right away and it's easy to do that with software but what's fascinating about the world today is that it has never been easier right I mean almost instantly you can copy

nearly any piece of software and so because we learned that lesson very early on we've evolved our business to really focus on the things that hard to copy, right? A network effects business

copy, right? A network effects business of people communicating with one another. These platforms, right, like

another. These platforms, right, like our augmented reality platform or our content ecosystem that are not just pieces of software that you can, you know, easily copy, but ecosystems of people communicating with one another or

creators making content that people are watching or people building augmented reality experiences. All of those sorts

reality experiences. All of those sorts of things are very hard to copy. So,

from, you know, the over the last 15 years, we've really honed our business perspective for this moment, right?

because we saw how easy it was to copy software. So in terms of our business

software. So in terms of our business and the way it meets our customers, I think we are well positioned uh for the huge transformation that's happening. At

the same time, our core business is software development. So we're able to

software development. So we're able to get a lot of the benefits of the extraordinary transformation in software development without the same risk to our core business because we build network effects over time and and uh you know

thought about how to position ourselves um for for this uh this moment. So AI is changing every single team at Snap. It's

changing the way that everything gets done at Snap. And because our core business is software development, I mean in the last three months, there's been profound change. But to imagine, I mean,

profound change. But to imagine, I mean, 18 months from now, the way that Snap operates will be completely different than the way it operated last year.

There's so many founders, and I don't know how many, almost none of them are saying this on the record that they tell me. They're like, I'm trying to figure

me. They're like, I'm trying to figure out I should not be running my company anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to

anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to build AI to run my company. They are

trying to literally replace themselves.

They're like there it's just going to be so much better than I am at doing this.

It should be doing this. I should not be doing this.

I think that's certainly true in terms of like the operational lift, but at the same time, right, like that the vision and creativity and connection to your customer has never been more important.

And so I think if anything it's going to enable founders to run teams that are much more operationally effective and require less of their time to operate the business and instead hopefully you

know pivot more time towards that sort of creativity and ideation and you know meeting customers where they're at.

What's one of the most surprising ways that AI has changed how Snap operates internally? I I don't necessarily think

internally? I I don't necessarily think this is like a surprise per se, but I do think, you know, and I feel like this is old news because everyone in the world

has been saying it, but like the change in how software is written since the beginning of this year is profound. our

core business is writing software and now that these models are good enough to write you know more and more complex pieces of software on their own like the job of a software engineer at Snap is

like profoundly and forever changed right and I think the more that we can embrace that and you know make that easier and teach people how to do that really effectively like it's just

transformational for for our core business because as I mentioned like we have been up against companies who don't have new ideas but have infinite resources, right? And we've got lots of

resources, right? And we've got lots of new ideas but no but very limited resources. And that's been a real

resources. And that's been a real challenge. And so it's been hard to see

challenge. And so it's been hard to see a path forward for Snap up against these giants without AI tools. And now with AI tools, you're like, "Wow, we basically have an infinite number of engineering

resources." Like that's a pretty

resources." Like that's a pretty profound change for for Snap. And the

rate at which that I I guess I would say the rate at which that has happened has surprised me.

You said something very interesting. You

said you realized a long time ago that software has no moat. The experience

that taught you that lesson was it stories?

No. The first time that that the the big sort of wakeup call was when uh you know Facebook at the time carbon copied Snapchat to make poke. Do you remember this?

Yes.

And Mark Zuckerberg recorded like him saying the word poke as the notification sound. He was like so excited about this

sound. He was like so excited about this and we were like, "Wow." Like, "Okay, this is a good, you know, this is a really good lesson for us." Um, it it ended up being super helpful to to Snapchat.

In the book, you call it the greatest Christmas present you ever received.

The nervousness going into that holiday period, right? I mean, they literally

period, right? I mean, they literally put a download poke at the top of every single Facebook app, right? And it was it was just a clone of of Snapchat. And

then to on, you know, on Christmas Day see Snapchat number one in the app store in that context was it was huge huge for us. Um, but that was that was the first

us. Um, but that was that was the first time we realized like, okay, we're gonna have to be really smart about how we build this business and invest in the the things that are hard to copy.

Do you remember how old you were when this was happening?

When would that have been? That would

have been 2012, 2013, so 22 probably.

Super young. Super young to take on that's that had to be terrifying. I mean

to be living in my dad's house with like three of my buddies from college you know and like this huge company you know set their sights on on us. I mean it you know it was definitely a formative

experience I would say. So then

realizing software has no moat is that direct insight leads to deciding bizarre decision I think correct in

hindsight for a what people consider a social network app or a messaging app to get into hardware and make glasses.

Those two things are related.

Absolutely. And I think but even before that right a real focus on messaging. So

the other key like the other key foundational insight of Snapchat um that really changed the company was at that time if you recall people were very

focused on like a simp very simplistic model of network effects and their very simplistic model was basically the more nodes you have in the network the more valuable the network is right and what

we realized was like that wasn't really true if you weren't using those network connections so actually you know what reflects the the value of the network is you know are the people that you

actually talk to and communicate with especially the ones you communicate more frequently are they a part of your network and if they are then you can acrue the vast majority of the value in that network very very quickly without

having the same scale or the same size right so what Snapchat showed was that if you just have one good friend on Snapchat right they they might represent half of your communication right because

they're super important in your life so you don't need 500 friends on Snapchat you just need your best friend on Snapchat and And that's what helped the service really grow and take on, you know, these these much larger these

larger competitors. What really prompted

larger competitors. What really prompted the the work on on glasses in the beginning was the feeling that we were always competing with that lock screen camera button,

right? And so, do you know on the iPhone

right? And so, do you know on the iPhone there's a lock screen camera button? So,

Snapchat opens the camera, right? And we

always want you to choose to open Snapchat to share a moment with your friends and your family. and you're

making a choice between having to unlock your iPhone and go and open Snapchat and take a snap or just using that lock screen camera button. And that lock screen camera button is on your phone and it's in your pocket. And so,

you know, when we were trying to reinvent the camera and change how people were using their camera to help them communicate, one of our fundamental questions was like, how do we get the camera out of your pocket right off your phone to make it easier for you to, you

know, share and express yourself or communicate your point of view or communicate what you're doing? That was

really the prompt that led us to explore glasses because back in the day the you know we just made camera glasses. But I

think as part of that journey and as as part of starting to work on camera glasses, not only do we realize first of all that the market for camera glasses is very small, right? Uh that ultimately your phone is very good for taking photos. Even if you're on a jet ski or

photos. Even if you're on a jet ski or even if you're rock climbing, people still use their phone uh you know to to take a to take a photo. So that that you know meant that we had to push way harder and faster to our full vision uh

for glasses. When did you learn the

for glasses. When did you learn the market was small? Because you couldn't even keep these things in stock. I told

you I had to big ugly blue color. Like

it was a fine color, but you know what I mean.

Yeah. But I think even, you know, I think we were shipping like hundreds of thousands of of units. Um, you know, I think 100,000 units in hardware is kind of like the first threshold of like, okay, you've got a product people are

interested in and and want to buy. But

even at a couple hundred thousand units, I just didn't see a path to it being like a, you know, hundreds of millions of units because ultimately at the end of the day, the bar that we set for any

product we develop is that it has to be 10 times better than the next best alternative. And when we looked at how

alternative. And when we looked at how people were using specs at the time, it just wasn't 10 times better than pulling your phone out of your pocket. uh you

know and maybe in some use cases it was if you want really wanted to be hands-free or you know that kind of thing but but it just wasn't 10 times better than the amazing camera you had on on your phone. And so we really then

set out to try to push towards as fast as we could our our true vision for computing. You know

computing. You know that was how many years ago when you started?

That would have been 20 by 2016 2017 we were really pressing into you know the the more advanced parts of of augmented reality glasses.

And I think, you know, if you look at the step-by-step approach we took, the first generation had one camera, right?

The second generation had two cameras with depth. The generation after that

with depth. The generation after that added a display. The generation after that added an operating system and developer platform. That's the version

developer platform. That's the version that's currently in the What's the generation I used yesterday?

That came out in 2024.

That's generation four or five.

Four or five. Yeah. Um and that was the first time we really offered a developer platform um so that folks could start building and creating all these experiences.

Okay. So, can you explain your evolution of glasses? You said basically you don't

of glasses? You said basically you don't think it was glasses, it's just another form of computing.

So to to go all the way back, the the initial thesis was let's get the camera out of your pocket, right? But at the same time, you know, on the phone, we were so constrained in what we could build, right? I mean, you have this tiny

build, right? I mean, you have this tiny little screen. We're watching augmented

little screen. We're watching augmented reality just take off on the phone.

Hundreds of millions of people every day are using these augmented reality experiences on this tiny little screen.

Let's pause real quick there because this is another I think example of what I was trying to freaking figure out about you earlier and I kind of went crazy. So

crazy. So we still haven't figured it out.

I know it might take a few more conversations. Uh you're talking about

conversations. Uh you're talking about all these people using augmented reality. They're in you're talking about

reality. They're in you're talking about the filters you added or the lenses and stuff to Snapchat.

Yeah.

Did you get that idea from another company? Where'd that come from? Were

company? Where'd that come from? Were

you the first one? bought a startup called Luxury that was working on those uh working on those lenses and then Bobby really pushed the vision of turning that into a platform and once we turned it into a platform and built

these developer tools called lens studio so that anyone could build lenses then it just took off because that's what got me using Snapchat because it was a little older than like your the typical people using it. But

did this launch after stories?

That must have launched after stories.

Yeah. How many years into Snap do you think that you've added this other feature?

Probably three or four years only.

Oh, that's actually way sooner than I thought. Way sooner than I thought

thought. Way sooner than I thought because you've been working on Snapchat for how long? 15

about 15 years. 15 years.

Okay. So, go back to what you were saying. Then you found hundreds of

saying. Then you found hundreds of thousands or millions of people now using hundreds of millions of people now.

Like every day.

But back then, this is they're engaging with AR through this feature. But this

is before you did the the glasses.

Yeah, sort of concurrent with the sort of concurrent with the the glasses and and may maybe concurrent with the second generation, I want to say, by the time we really had an augmented reality uh platform, but you know, the the original

thesis behind creating lenses was just people a lot of people thought it was weird to just take a selfie, right? Tons

of folks were taking selfies to express themselves, but like a lot of people were like, "Why would I just take ugly?

I don't want to be reminded what I look like.

Well, could put some dog ears on everything. So, so you know, or vomit a

everything. So, so you know, or vomit a rainbow, right? So, people people had a

rainbow, right? So, people people had a reason to I was covering people in flowers. It's

fun.

So, I think um I think lenses really gave people a reason to express themselves and and to share with their friends. Uh but then, you know, after we

friends. Uh but then, you know, after we built out the lens studio developer tools and this kind of thing, uh the platform just exploded. Now, you know, people have made millions of lenses, all sorts of different ways for people to

express themselves. not only with

express themselves. not only with selfies but also lenses that change the world as you experienced. And and we just found that people were incredibly constrained by this tiny little smartphone screen and needing to use their thumbs to interact with augmented

reality. And it was so clear that we

reality. And it was so clear that we needed to embed it in the world for it to be successful. And we were going to need to create the device uh to do that

um because no device even came close to the vision that we had. So we've really just pushed over the last decade to to make that vision possible. And then

later this year, you know, we're launching the first consumer version, which will be, you know, a big a big step for us.

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That is axon.ai senra. You use the word vision. When we

senra. You use the word vision. When we

were talking before we started recording, I think this is interesting.

You literally see it, see what you want.

You said like you have a problem designing a product if you can't see it in your mind. Can you explain more about that?

Yeah, I think in general with my life thus far like I like with the things that we build I see them very very clearly even before we've built

them. And I kind of know what I want. I

them. And I kind of know what I want. I

know how I want it to to work. And I

also know that if I can't see it, then we're we're off we're off track. And so

I think really trying to stay true to that that feeling and that vision and that focus is just so so important. And

that doesn't mean not being like open to other people's ideas, other people's creativity, etc. But like I think, you know, um yeah, I just very very vividly can see what we're what we're trying to

create.

I'm going to explain or describe an experience that I read about. You tell

me if it's similar to the one that that you experienced where uh when that legendary meeting that happened when Edin Land 70, Steve Job is 25, they're sitting across they're in a conference room sitting across a table from one another and they talked about they're

like they don't really consider themselves inventors. It's kind of funny

themselves inventors. It's kind of funny cuz Edin Land had the third most patents you know in human history. They said

they they discovered products that they would literally be looking at an empty table and see the final form of what they're doing and then they reverse engineer from that and essentially or uh

you know pro their entire organization to invent the technology to invent the product. Is that the similar experience

product. Is that the similar experience you're having?

I really really like that because I think what they're describing is technology in service of a product vision. So instead of chasing a

vision. So instead of chasing a technology, being crystal clear about what you're trying to create and then organizing everyone to invent everything needed to to create that uh to create

that product. So yeah, I mean

that product. So yeah, I mean yeah. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Is that not

yeah. Yes, I guess. Yeah. Is that not what you've been doing the last decade for with the the glasses cuz you made a choice. You're like other people are

choice. You're like other people are partnering with existing companies like Lexodica who I think is a very fascinating story. I told you before I

fascinating story. I told you before I did this crazy episode of Founders Podcast. I think it's episode 394 on

Podcast. I think it's episode 394 on Leonardo Dio which is just one of the he's an orphan and he built one of the most you know to this day most powerful and like such a dominating uh companies in his industry but you chose not to do

that.

There's a lot of reasons why I don't think that's the right let's go into them. We we don't have an end here.

Um as much as you can share that you know but I'm very interested in your philosophy behind the decisions you're making is what I'm trying to get to. I

think there's like a number of of challenges. Obviously, I think it's much

challenges. Obviously, I think it's much more harmful for Luxotica than it is for for Meta. I think Meta needed to partner

for Meta. I think Meta needed to partner with Lxotica because the Meta brand, I think, is not something that people want to put anywhere near their face. So, I

think um I think that Meta really needed I think what's what's challenging for Lxotica is they took like the most iconic crazy high margin product and

they destroyed the margin and then they associated it with Meta. So like I think like that like we'll see if that pans out over like a longer period of time if that was the right brand choice uh for

them. But I can definitely see why Meta

them. But I can definitely see why Meta needed needs to camouflage their brand which I think a lot of people don't resonate with and don't like with you know the Ray-B band uh brand. But I

think people are misreading, I think, the dynamic of of what's happening when you have meta ray bands on the shelf next to a regular pair of Ray-B bands and they're both about the same price,

right? And it's, you know, I love to

right? And it's, you know, I love to just walk into a sunglass hut or whatever and talk to them. Hey, what's

going on? What's selling? What's not?

It's like, well, you can get the Meta Ray-B bands that have a camera for about the same price as the RA regular Ray-B bands. Why don't you, you know, try it

bands. Why don't you, you know, try it out for your upcoming vacation? I think

that that's a smart strategy if you want to move a lot of volume. But I don't know if that builds a durable business over time. And the reason why I don't

over time. And the reason why I don't know if that builds a durable business over time is if I look at successful hardware companies over a long period of time, we can look at Apple, we could talk about Tesla for example, early

adopter is the wrong term, but they really try to start with premium or even luxury positioning around a very passionate early adopter

group that believes in their vision, right? Think like the Tesla Roadster,

right? Think like the Tesla Roadster, right? Or the early iMac or the early

right? Or the early iMac or the early iPhone. And they build a brand by

iPhone. And they build a brand by starting with those early enthusiasts who like believe right in the electrification of the world, the transformation of the power uh you know the power grid, how we're going to you know move things around or in the case

of Apple you know a revolution in the personal computer right that everyone's been doing phones wrong and that like you know having this uh you know personal computer in your pocket you know would be really transformational

and they really activate that that passionate group of enthusiasts and then over time they work with that really passionate group of enthusiasts to you know grow into the mass market while

preserving their premium positioning which means high gross margins then they take those high gross margins and they reinvest in R&D which widens their lead and like that is the story I think of

successful hardware companies and I think it's very very hard to start with a super broad-based low margin consumer product and try to work your way into

premium uh positioning. So I think if you look at at specs and like what we've tried to do even like your early experiences with the with the brand right we're innovative and different and again oriented around a a group of

enthusiasts and early adopters who like want to see the world differently who want to participate in the cutting edge of technology and I think if we're able to build the brand that way and build our own brand around that that will

allow us to sustain you know our our margins over time which will allow us to reinvest which ultimately will give us a big competitive advantage. I want to go back to wanting to control most of like

actually building your own hardware. Um

the you said something even the marketing though I I think like you got to give you credit to the marketing you guys were doing back in the day from the first spectacles where like there wasn't like a store you could just walk into.

It's not the the experience you described. It's like you would like

described. It's like you would like airdrop these vending machines and then I remember there's like a website and I'm not a [ __ ] power user of Snapchat. I was just like, I want these

Snapchat. I was just like, I want these glasses. And I would be like refreshing

glasses. And I would be like refreshing the the the website to figure out it's like, oh, okay, here's a new drop. And

you'd have like a countdown like we're it's dropping. And you wouldn't say

it's dropping. And you wouldn't say where it is. And I'm in like Miami at the time. It's like, all right, it's

the time. It's like, all right, it's dropping in Venice. I'm like, god damn it. And then I wind up the way I got

it. And then I wind up the way I got them is uh you did a drop in New York and a friend of mine, I called him and he went and stood in line and and got them for me. It was like really unique and fun like you just made it. I like

this idea of I just talking to Brian Armstrong about this uh founder of Coinbase where he's like everybody has shareholder letters, everybody has to write a shareholder letter. Everybody

has to do these analyst calls and he's trying to find a way to like make them fun and like kind of like internet native and you know they are forms of marketing. They're not just analysts

marketing. They're not just analysts that are reading these things like they could if you if you think about them and like and think about like doing creative marketing you could just drastically increase the amount of people that are getting information about your company.

Why is it so important to you though to control so much of the hardware that you're making?

Control of the hardware is necessary to deliver an extraordinary customer experience in this space and the intersection between the hardware and the software to deliver that customer experience is essential. So, you know,

as we look at how other people are approaching the space, trying to, you know, cobble together components from a ton of different manufacturers and get them to all work really well in a super

small lightweight form factor that's incredibly performant is just really, really hard to do. And so, I think for us, if we want to really deliver, you know, this cutting edge uh computing

experience, doing that um requires us to have a very high degree of control of the areas we can really

differentiate. So for example for us

differentiate. So for example for us that the display components are an area where we really differentiate. We have

an incredibly performant wave guide which is like the glasses part of the the lens right basically the lens of of the glasses. Uh and we've developed our

the glasses. Uh and we've developed our own projector that's incredibly small that you know beams light into this this wave guide. That's a big strategic

wave guide. That's a big strategic advantage for us because the display components draw a lot of power, right?

They're really important in terms of having that immersion uh and being able to have a very wide field of view when you're using uh the glasses. You can

interact with the world. And then of course like the resolution, the sharpness, like those are the things that really really matter. And so for us, in order to push those boundaries, there's no one that comes close to like

to to our ability to deliver on that on that product experience. So by doing it ourselves, I think we've created uh you know a competitive advantage that will show up in in the product that the consumers will experience. say more

about that line where you said it's important to control the parts that you can differentiate on essentially like you're going to burn yourself out if you try to control everything, right? So, it's really

everything, right? So, it's really important to identify very early on like where are the strategic points where you can create a totally unique customer experience by really investing in doing things differently. And for us, we've

things differently. And for us, we've really thoughtfully picked out where can we play and do something that's really hard and do it differently that creates a sustained competitive advantage because it delivers such an awesome

customer experience. So the display

customer experience. So the display components are one. I can talk about that cuz it's public, but like later this year, people will see a lot of these areas where we've invested and and invented, you know, fundamentally invented uh new ways of doing things

that I think consumers are going to love.

Another thing that like Edwin like again people should study Edwin Land, they should study all these history skills entrepreneurs because you just realize they come up with ideas too. We were

talking earlier, it's like he wanted he realized like if he did not have control because he started he wanted to be an inventor, not an entrepreneur. He had to learn to be an entrepreneur just so he could actually make money on his inventions. So therefore, he only wanted

inventions. So therefore, he only wanted to make money so he could invent more things. He was not after, you know, just

things. He was not after, you know, just having piles of money. And anytime he tried to outsource one, he he let other companies get in in between him and the

end consumer, which he fixed that when he did Polaroid and and uh and and the cameras, but when the manufacturing he owned the factories were in Massachusetts for god's sake, he was

manufacturing high-end technology in America. And his whole point was just

America. And his whole point was just like he didn't want to be a manufacturer, but he needed to control the things. So not only like to get the

the things. So not only like to get the cost down but to be able to influence the end unit of the the the product.

Yeah. People uh you know I think would be stunned to learn that we manufacture core components in the US and the UK right in our own facilities which allow us to do this really advanced R&D that push the boundaries of what's you know

what's possible with these components.

Yeah it's the same same exact idea. So

how are you going to distribute them? I

can't share all of our fine our secrets, but I we can we can regroup after the after the launch and and and deep dive into all of it.

Okay. But I have a sense that you want to control that too.

Uh I think it's it's important in terms of the customer experience.

What a surprise. All right. You just you described uh you you wrote this like uh I think it was your annual letter recently. Um and I I forgot the term

recently. Um and I I forgot the term you're basically the way you're positioning Snap. not not like a little

positioning Snap. not not like a little brother, but you described essentially like you have the scale of some of these big players, but you don't have the trillion dollar market cap, right? And

you were I think I think at least once in this conversation, you described that you've been engaged in trench warfare.

Why do you call it trench for warfare and tell us some stories about this?

Yeah, I I mean I I think that the the term I used in my letter was like the middle child, right? Because we're so much bigger than, you know, smaller competitors like a Reddit or a Pinterest or something like that, right? But we

don't have you just call Reddit small from like a you know we're almost a billion folks using our our service. If

you look at like our daily active engagement it's about like half a billion folks. So I think like just in

billion folks. So I think like just in terms of the scale of there's there's half a billion people using Snap every day.

About half a billion every day. Yeah.

And a billion and a billion about you know how many services how many other services are that size?

Maybe 10 maybe.

Okay.

Seven to 10. Depends if you include China.

No we don't.

America baby. Um all right. All right.

So, wait, you're the not the I keep saying little brother. You're the middle child. Say more about that.

child. Say more about that.

You're the middle child. And and I think um you know, I think what's interesting about that is like that the you know, and it's funny, we've got four kids at home, right? So, part of it was like

home, right? So, part of it was like based on my own experience with our kids where like a lot of attention is paid to the the the eldest child, right? And you

know, um and they're they've gotten so much bigger and they've grown up and you know, our 15-year-old and then the the baby, right, is growing so fast. It's so

exciting. And then I think somewhere in the middle right uh and hopefully this isn't the case in in our house there's like this period where you know you're changing and evolving and people don't know what are you becoming right maybe

in the case for for Snap right people are trying to understand what is this glasses thing they've been doing for 12 years that they're about to like launch to the world what is the role you know Snap's core Snapchat's core business is evolving we're growing this huge direct

revenue business that's growing really really rapidly and we're diversifying you know our advertising business with small and medium customers so we're in this period of like very intense change I think um for for Snapchat and as I

mentioned we're not as big as the giants and we're we're not as small as the our our smaller uh competitors and so it's that really interesting moment that I think you know middle children also uh

you know maybe experience where there's all this change happening and you know um you're you're sort of stuck in the in the middle.

Is this a stressful time for you? You

know, it's so funny. My my wife like loves the Aura Ring. Like she's

obsessed, you know? She like she like, you know, markets this thing to like everybody, right? Wants to like compare

everybody, right? Wants to like compare scores and all this kind. So, she

finally like years and years later was like, I'm going to try the Aura Ring.

And she was like shocked to learn that like, you know, there's sort of like the relaxed and stressed state and I'm just like in the relaxed state like all day long. And so I like wore it for a week

long. And so I like wore it for a week and it basically was like, you know, I sleep like seven or eight hours. I'm in

the relaxed state all the time. like she

was like how like what you know like so so I think like I really love like periods of intense change like I'm inspired by it I enjoy it and so like

while you know yeah it is like stressful to some degree I think like you know the the question is like how do you turn that stress into like

opportunity into growth into change but I think what's really important is for our entire team and our organization to know what a high stakes moment this is for our business, right? Like at this

moment in time, you know, what will we become? We are in a transitional

become? We are in a transitional moment. Um, and and that's super super

moment. Um, and and that's super super exciting and it means every second like every minute counts. I would say more exciting than than stressful, but like it's it's a really cool moment for for

our company. When you write something

our company. When you write something like that, obviously like is it more aimed at the broader like investor community or is it aimed for internal like consumption?

I always wrote them internally, but then they kept leaking and people like them.

So then I was like, you know what, we'll just publish it publicly going forward.

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I had this great conversation with Michael Dell, who's just awesome, like a great human being. Absolutely love that I get to spend time with him. I can't

believe it. and he has that thing where it's like he actually thinks it's important to to even if you don't have a crisis to like induce one like to create one and he gave this fantastic you know

he's reimagined his company that I mean have you spent any time with him?

I have. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So like that's probably if I was you I'd be like picking his brain.

I'm friends with his son Zack and you know um everybody has access to like the Bloomberg terminal and Zach's like I got the dad terminal and it's just like I get to like type in any question and get some crazy you know response from this

40 essentially he's been you know world class entrepreneur for four decades so like I have an issue with supply chain well guess what seen everything about supply chains and he and he's like can be very helpful but his whole point was

like he knew that he his company was under inflection point a few years ago and he stood up and and gave this this uh I guess this talk I think it was a talk and you might have wrote it down but it's just like you know there's a

company out there that is you know going to uh do be faster than us have better products have cheaper uh products and essentially they're going to come for us is like that company's us like we are

going to reinvent we're going to figure out what our weakness is and instead of let waiting around to be somebody else's meal like we're going to figure out how to reinvent our company and on the podcast the episode we did together he

was just like if you don't have a crisis you need to find one I would say yes with the caveat that Like I don't want our team to always feel like they're in crisis mode. I think I always try to be

crisis mode. I think I always try to be really cognizant of like where the team is at and like when we should sprint and run hard and like when we actually need to take a step back and you know adjust,

you know? So I think like all like

you know? So I think like all like staying in touch, especially at our size, right? We're like 5,000ish people.

size, right? We're like 5,000ish people.

you can really stay in touch with like the feeling of the organization and knowing when to like really really push uh you know and when it's better to create a little more space for like ideation or you know experimentation.

So 5,000 people serving a billion uh billion users. You mentioned uh you have

billion users. You mentioned uh you have a bunch of different revenue lines are ones that are growing like how does can tell me about the ones that like are new? One of the new ones is our

new? One of the new ones is our subscription business uh which is growing really really rapidly called Snapchat Plus. Um and I think it's a

Snapchat Plus. Um and I think it's a really good fit for Snap's culture. You

know, we we adopted the advertising model very early on. I think it's like well understood. It's a huge opportunity

well understood. It's a huge opportunity and we have a ton of, you know, engagement on on Snapchat. So

advertising is a big opportunity for us and it allows us to offer our product for free, which is great. Um, but I think, you know, the heart of Snapchat is and and our company is about building

stuff that people love and and and that they want. And we were getting so many

they want. And we were getting so many requests for all sorts of, you know, new and different features from our the most passionate members of our community. And

we would we could never really find time to resource and invest in them. Um,

because we were focused on things that everyone would use, not just like our most passionate, not just the most passionate Snapchatter. So, we decided

passionate Snapchatter. So, we decided to build Snapchat Plus, which is essentially gives you access to like new fun features on on Snapchat. We listen

to our community and the things that they they want and we'll test stuff and release new things for for Snapchat Plus. And for like four bucks a month,

Plus. And for like four bucks a month, you can join Snapchat Plus and get access to all these new uh these new features. That's now grown to like 25

features. That's now grown to like 25 million subscribers, which is like ESPN scale of subscribers. And I think in the last quarter is growing 60% year-over-year at like a billion.

Don't make me do public math. Is that a billion run rate? uh we're doing a bit like yeah like a billion run rate growing 60% year-over-year.

That's incredible.

And it's a really good fit for what we're great at, which is making new stuff that people love and want to pay for. So I think it's it's like

for. So I think it's it's like culturally been a been a great fit for for our company.

It kind of ties to what we were talking about when you're design meetings earlier versus like we're looking at hundreds. How often are you doing these

hundreds. How often are you doing these design meetings, by the way?

Once a week.

Okay. So every week you're going through hundreds of new ideas, some of which wind up for features for Snap. Snapchat.

Okay. So that's perfectly in time. What

what did you say earlier about what else are you going to do with do you think like you're going to add to that or do in the future if you want to talk about it for the subscription business? I mean we got a zillion ideas in the backlog so

we're just going to keep shipping new you know new additions and features.

Do you think you eventually increase the price?

Uh maybe but I think it's so early right now. Yeah we we have done tiering. So

now. Yeah we we have done tiering. So

one of the things that has been really popular we released something called lens plus. So I think Snap Snapchat the

lens plus. So I think Snap Snapchat the camera itself it's probably the most used like Gen AI camera service like in terms of like image video generation this kind of thing. Um just because of

how many people are using our camera every day. Um but we have you know so we

every day. Um but we have you know so we release a bunch of these um Genai lenses and we give a number of uses for free.

Um but then if folks want to upgrade to lens plus because they're loving it and using them all the time uh they can do that and that's that that's grown nicely for us too. Um, so Lens Plus is at a slightly higher price tier and then we

have, you know, the platinum plan or whatever that you can get rid of ads and, you know, unlock more features, that kind of thing.

What did you change about the advertising business? You said something

advertising business? You said something about you just basically adopted at the beginning of what was there and available and maybe known and how has that changed over time?

There's been a couple huge shift for shifts for us in the past couple years.

You know, the core of our advertising business from the early days really grew around, you know, a small number in the, you know, in the hundreds of large customers in the United States, really built around a brand business and it

grew very very quickly throughout the, you know, the the history of the the company. But our advertising mix almost

company. But our advertising mix almost looked like the inverse of like a Google or Meta. So Google or Meta the vast

or Meta. So Google or Meta the vast majority of their revenue comes from small and medium-sized customers and a small amount of their revenue comes from you know large large customers especially here in the US we had like the inverse we had most of our revenue

coming from this small group of of large customers and then a very small amount of money coming from small and medium customers part of that was because you know at the time many years ago we didn't have a really robust lowerfunnel

advertising business you know where people can optimize against you know events that happen in their app or you know people making purchases on their website um and you know we hadn't really built out a lot of those capabilities

and small and medium customers really care about that. They want to see their return on ad spend right away. Uh so

despite having this enormous scale and all this engagement the the ad offering especially in the lower funnel was was immature. So over the past couple years,

immature. So over the past couple years, we built out that entire lowerfunnel advertising offering so we can really drive performance for for customers um for for small medium customers and we've

been really rapidly growing that small medium uh that small medium customer segment. So we're doing like this really

segment. So we're doing like this really difficult transformation to make our sort of inverted, you know, mostly large US customers advertising around upperfunnel and brand goals into like

mostly small medium customers uh advertising against lower funnel funnel goals. And that's just been a

goals. And that's just been a transformation of like every part of our advertising business, the way that we go to market on the sales side, the the engineering and product work that's happening.

Yeah. I'd be curious like what that looks like because if you are doing the inverse, you have these giant brand deals. I'd have to imagine as giant

deals. I'd have to imagine as giant brands spending a ton of money, right?

I'd have to imagine that you have to employ a ton of sales people, right? In

a way that Google and Facebook do not.

Yeah, that's certainly one part of it for sure.

So that'd be more profitable too because they kind of have like a self-service product.

Yeah. And I think you know large customers rightly want a lot of bespoke service as well. So our engineering team was spending a huge amount of time building bespoke solutions for really large customers who want to measure

things in a specific way or want a really unique integration or unique offering. And you know now our

offering. And you know now our engineering team is spending a huge amount of time serving lowerfunnel customers at scale right and so rather than doing building a product they need to adapt to that small yeah that small medium

customers can really easily you know sign up for and use are you getting rid of the bespoke are you trying to like we're doing a lot less bespoke but we also find that these large customers they want to drive lower lowerfunnel outcomes too. So, a lot of it is

outcomes too. So, a lot of it is teaching our sales folks, you know, who were used to living in this more brand upperfunnel oriented world to sell into lowerfunnel objectives for large customers. There's actually a weird idea

customers. There's actually a weird idea that just came to mind because I just did this episode called How SpaceX Works. So, there's this guy named Max

Works. So, there's this guy named Max Olsen who he still needs permission to to publish a book, but essentially he's like, "Hey, I want to tell the story of the history of SpaceX as it happened and I'm going to use their internal memos to

do so." So, he's got access to like the

do so." So, he's got access to like the first 10 years. I hope SpaceX allows him. I've seen a copy of like the

him. I've seen a copy of like the advanced copy that you can't sell yet.

It's called SpaceX Foundation. So, he's

like, "Well, in the meantime, I'm going to write an essay that tells the story of why this is important." And so, I read the essay like three times like, "This is [ __ ] crazy." So, I just did an episode of Founders on it. And one of

the most interesting things I never thought of is like essentially the the the aerospace industry, everything was bespoke. Everything was custom to the

bespoke. Everything was custom to the customer. And it's just like, well, if

customer. And it's just like, well, if you do that, you can't scale. And Gwyn

Strowell was, you know, a huge driver behind this. It's like, we're going to,

behind this. It's like, we're going to, you know, build a basic good enough launch system that you adapt to. And

then it took a while to educate them to adapt to it. But once they're adapted, then they just I mean now they're doing I think uh most launch providers would do two to four launches per year that

they do one every like two days. They

did more load last year than every single other launch uh provider in like China, Russia, America, everywhere else combined. And that one idea where it's

combined. And that one idea where it's like we can't do bespoke. We have to we have to get this uniform if we're going to scale this and we can't get to our goals if we don't scale it.

And to take it a step further, they didn't have to deal with all the political pressure that NASA is under to put, you know, a certain factory here or a plant in this state and you know what I Like I think like just out the gate they were able to deliver rockets at a

tenth the cost you know of an asset or something like that.

Did you intentionally invert where like Google and Facebook are doing it this way we're going to try a different way and then realizing oh we we need to change like back then did you make that decision consciously?

We saw that like if we really wanted to grow the ads business to be you know doubledigit billions over time that we needed to have a lowerfunnel business with a diversified set of small business. Did you hope that wasn't true

business. Did you hope that wasn't true at the time at the very beginning?

No, I just think we grew really fast on, you know, large customer brand advert.

They can move dollars very very rapidly, right? That's one of the the benefits.

right? That's one of the the benefits.

You know, if you're working with a large customer, they can move, you know, millions of of dollars very quickly. If

you have a couple hundred of those customers, you can build a very large advertising business very quickly. The

question is like how do you build a diversified very very big one over time?

Okay. So, you can get big, but you can't get huge without it. Oh, okay. And you

needed to get big at that like you that was like almost like stage one. You had

to do it that way.

And and I'd say almost all these platforms stage one looks like that.

Okay.

Right. I mean even Facebook in the early days it was display advertising, right?

Um and then over time they built out way more advanced systems optimizing against lowerfunnel goals. I'd argue like a a

lowerfunnel goals. I'd argue like a a Reddit or a Pinterest today. I mean, you know, to some degree Pinterest is building out lowerfunnel objectives and this kind of thing, but a lot of it is still, you know, large customer

upperfunnel dollars. So, I' I'd say

upperfunnel dollars. So, I' I'd say almost all ad platforms start with that because you can grow very quickly. Uh,

and then you use that to invest in building out much more sophisticated systems. Yeah. And at the beginning, you

systems. Yeah. And at the beginning, you said you you really thought you were building a messaging app, not a social network. You studied the way messaging

network. You studied the way messaging apps in other countries monetized. I

feel like you have a lot of soul and so you would prefer I don't know if you can say this but you would prefer almost if you had like an all subscription business because the incentives are more aligned. I really love the subscription

aligned. I really love the subscription business. I wish we had done it earlier.

business. I wish we had done it earlier.

I I just I love it. I love the direct connection to our customers. Um I love that it's directly related to the value that we provide them. And I think it's been really exciting to see that like

you know I think unlike some of these other internet services, people are getting a ton of value from Snapchat. so

much so they're willing to pay for it, right? And I think that's that's uh you

right? And I think that's that's uh you know, it's also a sign to me that we're building something that that's valuable.

I spent a lot of time with the Spotify team, Daniel, Gustaf, Alex, the top three three people there and they just have this like soul in the game and they're really trying to build an app.

Their whole thing is just like when you're done using Spotify, do you feel good?

And I'm like, well, you know, I spent an hour listening to music, I feel great. I

spent an hour listening to, you know, founders podcast or any other podcast. I

feel great. Now they have audio books.

Do you feel great? They're actually try.

It wouldn't have worked any other way.

Like they obviously have some they have somewhat of an ad business, but I think they they told me they're um the second most paid subscribers in uh the world, I think, behind Netflix. And you know, they did that in a relatively short

amount of time. Like I'm friends with Jimmy I was on the the show and he told me some outlandish [ __ ] He's just like, "When Apple bought us, Spotify only had 3 million paid subscriber. I want to take a run at them." And now they think

of like 250 million. But there is something about like if you do have this soul, if you are trying to put something good into the world that is not just trying to maximize usage, you know, on

an app that's not good for you, it's just more enlightened. I I didn't ask you that before, but I just got that that the sense that that's uh that's how you were. You have any idea the size

you were. You have any idea the size that you think it could get to? Because

you have how many page? You said 20 25 million subs over what when and when did you like start it?

Was that two three years ago? Something

like that.

Still, it's it's pretty goddamn fast.

Let's see. You know, I'm excited. It's

obviously grown quite rapidly and I think it'd be a big a big uh revenue driver for us.

All right, let's go back to the more difficult times in Snapchat's history. I

want to know more about this like trench warfare. That's a great line that you

warfare. That's a great line that you had.

I think given that we're up against such large monopolistic competitors, like every day is a fight.

Every day is about putting one foot in front of the other because they just have so much scale. And I think for us, you know, creativity has been historically the force multiplier that's

allowed us to break through and take ground, right? Um, but I think as I look

ground, right? Um, but I think as I look towards the future, what makes me so excited and that, you know, the reason why I brought that up is like creativity combined with AI should allow us to move

incredibly quickly in this environment and overcome a lot of the resource constraints that we've had historically.

And and that's something that that's really different about, you know, the next decade for for Snap.

Do you ever foresee the hardware being a separate business?

It essentially is. So, it's it's a wholly owned subsidiary today. The

brands themselves, you know, they're adjacent to one another, but they're different brands. In many ways, it's a

different brands. In many ways, it's a different customer. Um, although not

different customer. Um, although not entirely different. So, I I do think

entirely different. So, I I do think that they'll they'll grow in different ways uh over time.

Why did you make the decision to start a separate company with the hardware business at its core is just so different than the internet service business that we operate with

with Snapchat. And you know even

with Snapchat. And you know even requires a different execution style.

You know with hardware like you cannot make a mistake right like the things that we are doing today will show up in 2 years from now and if we made a mistake it's a huge problem and it'll

cost us another year or whatever to to fix it. I mean it's that type of

fix it. I mean it's that type of precision and operational rigor is just night and day different than Snapchat, right? Where if like we break something

right? Where if like we break something today because we're moving quickly like it's fine we'll fix it this afternoon, right? It'll and move on. And so

right? It'll and move on. And so

culturally they're very they're they have to be different companies and different operating styles. And then I think in terms of

the brand and where we're trying to take the the specs brand, I think Snapchat has always tried to be fun and whimsical to make sure that you feel comfortable expressing yourself, right? Snapchat

never takes itself too seriously. And

while I don't think Specs is going to like take itself seriously, uh, you know, necessarily in a way that's like weird or or you know, not true to who we

are, what we're trying to do is incredibly serious. Um, you know, we are

incredibly serious. Um, you know, we are trying to reinvent the computer. We

think that the way that people have, you know, and trying to make it more human and we think the way that people have designed computers for the last 50 years is like robbing us of who we are and like our humanity. And that people are

going to want a new type of computer.

They want a computer that allows them to use AI and access AI in different ways that brings them closer together with their friends and and and the world. And

so that vision and mission I think deserves real focus and dedication. And

in some ways, while it has shares that same root and philosophy and idea that that animates Snapchat, it's approaching it from a very different perspective.

When did you in your mind realize that this had to be two separate companies?

uh in in in a lot of ways they've operated se quite separately right they have the same sort of GNA support but Snap Lab which you know it was the precursor to to Specs Inc. has operated

as an independent relatively independent part of of SNAP for for a long time.

Different location, separate not shared office space. How like explain the

office space. How like explain the organization?

You know, nearby in some cases shared office spaces. Um in some cases

office spaces. Um in some cases definitely not u depending on what we're working on, leadership team, all that sort of stuff. I think you know historically has been has been quite separate.

Yeah. Did you ever read about I'm I'm sure you did, but like Steve Jobs was very adamant about when he was inventing something new, it could not be in the same building. Had to be a completely

same building. Had to be a completely different team. I don't think they

different team. I don't think they separated out, you know, that I don't think it spun out different like entities inside of Apple, but he want he's like you can't even be in the same building. That was like really really

building. That was like really really important.

Yeah, it makes sense to me because I think focus is just so critical when you're trying to build something new.

And differentiation, you don't want, you know, the opinions of other people outside of, you know, the people working on it. What was Snap Lab?

on it. What was Snap Lab?

Uh, Snap Lab really incubated a lot of the spectacles and specs stuff.

Why did you make the decision to start something like SnapLab?

It was to house all the the hardware development.

Okay. So, it's not like SnapLab was created and then you realized, hey, let's do hardware. It was the vehicle to do hardware or like I think it was sort of concurrent. I

mean, when we started working on spectacles back in the day, that that was really the genesis of SnapLab. I

mean, that's what it was called initially. Do you still have some kind

initially. Do you still have some kind of like R&D separate thing to like dream up new products or you just only focus on the app and the glasses? You know,

one of the things we're thinking a lot about now and and this is sort of what I mean about the sort of force multiplication of AI and creativity.

Like the core Snapchat business is really well positioned to launch new app categories today, right? Because we have a massive amount of distribution. We've

got tons of great ideas and brilliant creative people and now with AI we actually have the resources to make that possible. So inside of Snapchat today

possible. So inside of Snapchat today and in our design team we're thinking a lot about what types of new apps and services internet services but a separate app from Snapchat or a separate app from Snapchat but we can

use Snapchat as a launchpad for for these new services because it reaches almost a billion people.

Do you have any other apps? I don't even know. Uh there's an app called Saturn

know. Uh there's an app called Saturn which we acquired which is a totally new way to think of calendaring. So if you if you look at calendars today, not only are they kind of really entrenched into

like the the business world, but because they are, it makes it almost impossible to easily share calendars with friends, right? And it's all and calendars are

right? And it's all and calendars are all today oriented around email, right?

Rather than your phone number and your text messages, but all of your planning and the way that you're working together with your friends is happening in your text messages, right? And around your phone number. And so the Saturn team has

phone number. And so the Saturn team has had a lot of really great insights about what the future of a calendar should look like. And so um that's a separate

look like. And so um that's a separate app that's now owned by Snapchat that's in integrated with Snapchat um and gets distribution through Snapchat but is a standalone service.

Why would people use it? Like give me a use case.

Because it's a calendar built for your friends. So like I it is so difficult. I

friends. So like I it is so difficult. I

mean I don't know if you've experienced this with your partner but with my wife like it's so hard to get my work calendar to match with her work calendar. it's like almost impossible.

calendar. it's like almost impossible.

And let alone get that to map to our 15-year-old's calendar, right? And you

know, everything he's got going on after school. And so, I think all of a sudden,

school. And so, I think all of a sudden, there's a solution that like works really well for our 15-year-old who doesn't have like a whole corporate email and whatever, but like wants to share his calendar with with friends, right? We can have visibility into each

right? We can have visibility into each other's calendar, and it all works centered around your phone and your mobile number, right? So, it's so it actually is a social calendar rather than being like a work oriented

calendar. That just makes things easier.

calendar. That just makes things easier.

How much do you use email all the time?

I push everything to text or WhatsApp.

Really? I push everything to email.

Oh, well, you probably have like an army.

I use email like text message.

Okay.

There's no army. No, I use email like text. Yeah.

text. Yeah.

How do you balance focus? You obviously Snapchat's working.

focus? You obviously Snapchat's working.

The app specs working and will continue to like grow. How do you balance like inventing new things with with focusing on what you already have? Like how do you think about that? Are you just

that's just you you just need to invent new things to just you have like a compulsion for this?

Um it's it's a it's a really great question. I see a huge amount of

question. I see a huge amount of opportunity in the the products and services that we have today and I think we need to continue to constantly iterate and evolve them and make them better. Um and that ultimately that's

better. Um and that ultimately that's what our customers our community expects, right? They want us to

expects, right? They want us to constantly innovate for them to, you know, make their lives their lives better. So I think we have to tirelessly

better. So I think we have to tirelessly do that. At the same point, there's

do that. At the same point, there's nothing more valuable than focus. Like

focus is, I mean, arguably my primary role in our company is helping to drive focus and prioritization. So I almost don't see them necessarily as as like tradeoffs, but like as just an ongoing

part of running our business, right?

Making sure that we're being really clear about focusing on the areas where we see the biggest opportunity.

Yeah. if um somebody would ask as ask me like okay you've read 400 of biographies on history entrepreneurs they always want to like give me like a top 10 idea list and I was like I can do one better I can distill everything down to one

single word focus and so while you were talking I was just looking up because I save all my notes and highlights for every single book I've read I have a personal aa that that is only trained on all the transcripts for my podcast every

single highlight from every book every single note and Edwin Land one of my favorite quotes of his he says my whole life has been spent trying to teach people that intense concent concentration for hour after hour can bring out in people resources they didn't know they had.

He was obsessed with focus.

The reason I asked you this is because you spent any time with Tony from Door Dash.

Not a lot. No.

Okay. We just recorded this intense conversation and I'm going to have to do it again like every six months because I still can't. The guy has got so many

still can't. The guy has got so many ideas.

I don't buy individual stocks. I don't

really give a [ __ ] about anything about making, you know, podcasts and try to do this intense focus. So, I don't think about investing. I don't think about

about investing. I don't think about anything else. Just do what I'm doing

anything else. Just do what I'm doing every day. Wake up and do it seven days

every day. Wake up and do it seven days a week. But I don't know anything about

a week. But I don't know anything about the finance of Jordash. All I can tell you is he's I think 41 years old. I've

never come across another person that gives me like young Jeff Bezos vibes.

And I'm so tempted to just like back up the truck. I'm like, I'm just going to

the truck. I'm like, I'm just going to vibe. I'm going to vibe invest just

vibe. I'm going to vibe invest just because everybody's like, "Oh yeah, you know, you got 60% of I think right now he has 60% market share of food delivery." You're out of your goddamn

delivery." You're out of your goddamn mind if you think that that guy is just thinking about food delivery. He is.

He's going to build and he already is. I

think he they launched six new products including their own hardware. There's

something about this conversation that's reminding me of this where it's just like he's going to be focused on, you know, what they're excellent at, but he's got grandiose ambitions to the

point where like just like there's no way in hell Bezos was going to stick with books and CDs and movies. Like he's

it's impossible for that kind of personality type to to be that way. Um,

so yeah, I was just curious if like you if there was something in you that you basically like your level of ambition.

I think ambition is the wrong word. I do

think like I think like creation and problem solving is really what I what I love to do.

I think you're right. Ambition is the wrong word. It's like there's they see a

wrong word. It's like there's they see a series of problems and they think they can solve it better than anybody else.

Yeah. And I I think there's like something so incredibly gratifying about doing that. It's awesome, you know, and

doing that. It's awesome, you know, and to see the way it makes people's lives better, the way they respond to like that's that's like the best. It's it's

awesome.

Your focus basically every day when you wake up is like you're attacking what you feel is like the biggest problem in Snapchat. Is that how you organize your

Snapchat. Is that how you organize your day? Like how do you go about this? I

day? Like how do you go about this? I

heard you on another podcast say that like you kind of get turned on. You

didn't use these words, but like you're like attracted to hard problems. like you want like difficulty, you want to spend your time solving the hardest problems.

I think it's absolutely essential for us to go after solving uh hard problems, especially as we look at like the long-term success of the the business. I

think that ultimately like that is where value is created. So I think a huge amount of what I'm I'm thinking about is like how can we make our community our customers lives better and you know what

are some really really hard problems that we think we can uniquely solve.

I meant more about like the existing problems in like how you spend your time how you allocate your time is a better word like the existing problems in the business.

How do I allocate my time across the existing problem? So, you know, so like

existing problem? So, you know, so like like Elon's famous for like what is the the bottleneck here and like I'll find out in my entire empire where the bottleneck is. I'm going physically

bottleneck is. I'm going physically there and I'm going to sit there and like dedicate all our resources. In that

essay I told you I I read about the history of SpaceX the they they just there's a NASA guy from NASA um visiting SpaceX and they're like like when there's a problem there's like a flash mob appears. So Elon has a very specific

mob appears. So Elon has a very specific way and I heard you on another podcast saying like you're attracted to problems. I'm just curious like I'm not talking about problems you could solve like in future product development. I'm

saying literally like there's you're running a giant company. There's all

kinds of stuff that's not going well.

Yeah. So so my Monday morning for example is like two to two and a half hours in the specs business going through the risks and dependencies red

yellow you know red orange yellow green what are we doing to solve it right and what progress are we making and how can I help? I mean, that's the that's that's

I help? I mean, that's the that's that's how I start my week.

You and I were looking at this book I I gave you before we started recording and it was a photographic history. I think

it's called like Fearless Genius or something or Ferocious Genius and it's about Steve Jobs and you open to a page and Steve had a [ __ ] list and you're like, I have a [ __ ] list too. It's like

the five hardest problems he's got to solve and there many of them don't have solutions yet. So, it's similar to that.

solutions yet. So, it's similar to that.

Yeah. And I think what's most important for me is creating a culture where people are raising their hand and bringing those problems early and often, right? Like that is missionritical

right? Like that is missionritical across the organization, right? Like we

can't solve a problem that we don't know about. We can't solve a problem that

about. We can't solve a problem that someone isn't escalating quickly, you know? And so I think it's it's really

know? And so I think it's it's really beyond just like making sure that we're staying focused on the the issues that we need to get resolved and you know, launch blockers or whatever they are.

Culturally, we have got to make sure that like that is, you know, how the team is operating all day, every day throughout the organization.

How do you ensure that information gets to you though?

I think one of the things that's really I stole this from Walmart, which I thought was great. They have a Friday meeting called In It to Win It. They

have their leaders from across the company, not just like super senior leaders, but leaders from across the company around the world, all get together for about an hour and they essentially raise their hand and say, "Hey, this shopping cart ball bearing is

not working properly. We got to get this thing fixed." Right? And who'sever in

thing fixed." Right? And who'sever in charge of the shopping cart ball bearing can raise their hand and give a response or they can say, "I'll get back to you or whatever it is." But that's multiplied across the entire company.

And the thing that they found was like their leaders would go out into the, you know, into stores into the community and they would hear about problems and then they'd solve the problem just for the store, but they wouldn't solve it for the company. And so in it to win it

the company. And so in it to win it allows them to solve these problems companywide. And so we do the same thing

companywide. And so we do the same thing for Specs, for Snapchat, like bring the problems forward, right? I mean you can also like the even simpler way to do it I love to just walk around and talk to our people right and just hear about what's going on hear about the issues

impacting them but I think you unless you create these like structures and processes in the company to actively surface it and build that culture it's hard to it's hard to do that and I think

you know it's just so important so I heard you describe the design team as like a very flat there's like no hierarchy is the rest of the company like that like how is how do you actually organize

I'd say the rest of the company is certainly flatter than most, but you know, the design team is actually flat, right? Uh, everyone's got the same

right? Uh, everyone's got the same title, like that kind of thing. But I

think what's so important for Snap is that we're like a ruthless meritocracy.

You know, we like in the beginning of the early days, you know, this kind of silly now, but in the early days, we would just make up people's titles, like just make them hilarious. Like you could come and join Snap and like make up whatever you wanted to be called because

the whole point was like, who cares about your title? And if you're focused on your title, you're focused on like the exact wrong thing, right? Like that

like we are going to die if like we are a company that's focused on title and hierarchy and you know uh getting ahead, right? Rather than focusing on the

right? Rather than focusing on the customer. I mean I think that's like a

customer. I mean I think that's like a huge huge problem. So I'd say like the the company Yeah. of course you know we we've got great leaders. We invest a lot in our leaders. But one of the things that I think makes Snap so unique is

like no matter who you are, where you are in the company, you can have a huge outsiz impact. I mean it was it was fun.

outsiz impact. I mean it was it was fun.

I I got some great like intern feedback.

one of our interns like came to me and was like, you know, it's funny like I came to Snap and like wasn't even really clear like who my manager or leader was because everyone was so helpful and everyone was like guiding me and

providing mentorship and working together with me. And so I think that sort of like one team feeling is is really important.

So how do you make sure that anybody in the company can make a major impact though?

First of all, setting that expectation like that's that's what we expect at Snap. It's not just like you know that

Snap. It's not just like you know that we try to enable it. That's like if you see a problem and you can fix it, you can solve it, like we're going to celebrate that and lift that up and not

be precious like oh this is my thing, my territory. Like that's that that is I

territory. Like that's that that is I think you know I think people respond really negatively to that in our in our culture. So I think you know sometimes

culture. So I think you know sometimes that creates problems because the swim lanes are less clear. I mean people are solving problems across the organization across teams are working together and I think um you know just making sure that we have culture and leaders who are

rewarding that and reinforcing that behavior is so important.

Have you studied how Jensen organized his company not in depth I mean you would you would be the expert I'm sure not nearly but I did do two podcasts on them. There's a great book called Nvidia

them. There's a great book called Nvidia way uh that goes into this but yeah I haven't found anybody else that at that especially at that size that has like a completely flat you know as as flat an

organization as possible. Um, I think he's got like 60 direct reports. Like, I

mean, it's pretty wild. And he describes this as like people are worried about like being able to manage like AI that's smarter than them and AI agents that are smarter than me. He's like, I do this every day. All my 60 direct reports are

every day. All my 60 direct reports are smarter than me in their domain and I'm going to be able to manage them and orchestrate them perfectly. It's just

it's like very fascinating. Like I'm

always curious. Again, I think the the founder led companies are a reflection of the personality of the founder. like

the founder is the guardian of the company's soul and it only works if it is like built around who you are and the philosophy that you have.

Yeah. And I think you know generally speaking I would expect the world to move towards flatter structures and much larger spans of control because like the communication and organization tax today

is like night and day what it was 20 or 30 years ago. Like so I think companies are still thinking in this like sort of industrial mentality where communication was very high friction. that doesn't

make a lot of sense in terms of the way that companies are organized and operated today. So I I would imagine

operated today. So I I would imagine that more people will move to much much wider spans of control, much flatter organizations and I think that'll be helpful. I'm not really interested in

helpful. I'm not really interested in people's first company. I'm interested

in their last company is you feel like this is your life's work. This is your last company.

I think Specs is probably my last company. I would I would guess.

I always said I would never do it again and now I find myself doing it again with specs and uh it's just you know I I hope that like in the not too distant future I can also think about more ways

to like give back to society. I mean our family does a lot. We have like a family fund. We've got you know the SNAP

fund. We've got you know the SNAP foundation. We like are constantly

foundation. We like are constantly thinking about how to you know support LA uh you know and and hopefully in the future like you know more broadly. I

love charity, but the best way to be charity is to build a company and a product to make somebody else's life better.

I think that's like one way to contribute for sure. Um, but I think like I think there are lots of ways to to contribute to making the world better. And and I think um I think specs

better. And and I think um I think specs like the biggest problem that I see today is people spending seven or eight hours a day on their computer and spending their life operating a computer. I think that is like a

computer. I think that is like a disaster for our society and I think like we have to change that. uh and if we don't like we are headed in a really bad direction. So I think specs just if

bad direction. So I think specs just if we can attack that problem and even shift two hours of the eight hours a day you're spending hunched over like this to you looking out at the world and going for a walk and spending time with your friends and playing together with

them like that that's massive for the world. So I think like I really want to

world. So I think like I really want to like land the solution to that problem for sure, but I think like there's a lot of problems out there and I think um you know over a longer period of time I I

want to think about like more ways that I can make an impact.

You just reminded me I want to go back to this interesting decision for you to go in on AR at a time when almost everybody was thinking that VR was the path. And I've heard some funny uh uh

path. And I've heard some funny uh uh you you you say some funny things about that. But so don't let me forget that. I

that. But so don't let me forget that. I

guess this line of questioning that I'm on right now is really what I'm trying to get to is just like you're famous for turning down billions and billions of dollars real fast to sell the company. I

think the book that I read on you eight years ago was called how to turn down a billion dollars or some they made reference to it. trying to get to like what is motivating you like you know I I study entrepreneurship obviously my

entire life is founders every during the day I make founders podcast at night I hang out with founders this my whole life and I think the common misconception is that entrepreneurs are driven by money and I would argue they're driven by control and if you're

talented and you want to build a product that makes else life better and you maintain control you wind up with money anyways but their primary motivation is not money clearly your primary motivation was not money I think there's a line in the book said that you would

never work for anybody else like take us through the decision of just like I don't give a [ __ ] about your billions of dollars. I want to do this.

dollars. I want to do this.

Well, I think you know I would never like underestimate the fact that like Bobby our investors were smart. They allowed

Bobby and I to both sell 10 million bucks of stock very early on. Obviously

that would have been worth maybe a lot more now but like but very early on which meant that like you know we were able to see a just you know support a family buy a house like whatever it was

right so I think like very early on money like was no longer a consideration but 10 million is not a billion but 10 million is more than enough money to live a really great comfortable

life you see what I mean here like it's still an unusual decision on your part especially when you were how old were you when you make the first time you turned down a multi-billion another acquisition offer

probably 20 I don't know you know long young 20s yeah okay don't downplay like that's another see we've we've gone over a series of unusual decisions that you keep making

so like explain to me like why I wouldn't do it either like I'd hope I wouldn't do it because my I guess my the work I'm trying to do on founders podcast to give you like I I want to like to the degree that there is any

influence that the podcast has on future generations entrepreneurs it's like right now the entre entrepreneurship ecosystem. They celebrate because the

ecosystem. They celebrate because the incentive structure is [ __ ] up. They

celebrate start, scale, sell.

You started, you scaled, you didn't sell. The 400 biographies I there's not

sell. The 400 biographies I there's not a single biography that I've read where it's like guy started a company, two years later, he sold it for billions of dollars and he spent the rest of his life as a as an investor. I'm sorry,

almost throw up in my mouth at the thought of this. They don't write books about that. Why did you take yourself

about that. Why did you take yourself out of the game? Like the whole point like Elon's the richest person on the planet. You think he'd ever do that? No.

planet. You think he'd ever do that? No.

He like puts his chips back in there. He

wants to build [ __ ] Yeah.

This is what one of the things I admire about you. So like what how the hell do

about you. So like what how the hell do you make that decision at 22, 23, 24?

Well, I think we we loved what we were doing. I mean, Bobby and I just loved

doing. I mean, Bobby and I just loved working together. We loved making stuff.

working together. We loved making stuff.

We saw a huge opportunity for the service. And fundamentally, the service

service. And fundamentally, the service was so different than what else was out there. And it was very clear that like

there. And it was very clear that like we would have had to compromise on our vision and values if we sold the company. I mean, you think about almost

company. I mean, you think about almost every choice was the opposite of what was happening at the time, right? It was

like permanent public social media on a feed. We were doing like private

feed. We were doing like private messaging, private ephemeral messaging, right? Uh no public likes and comments,

right? Uh no public likes and comments, right, with like opening into the camera, not a feed, investing in things like augmented reality when everyone was investing in virtual reality, thinking that people were actually going to like

wear a TV on their face. Like it's

insane. Like it was insane. And I think like you it makes no sense. And I think like we looked at that and we were like wow like you know if that like if that's like the direction people want to go like that's scary for the world. Now

it's great in many ways that like all of these services have adopted our inventions. I mean when we talked about

inventions. I mean when we talked about I mean in 2012 I 2013 the importance of privacy people looked at us like we were insane. I mean literally they were like

insane. I mean literally they were like what are you talking about privacy? Like

what like that remember that was like the the world remember Mark Zuckerberg being like the world's going to be open and connected. Everyone's going to share

and connected. Everyone's going to share everything. like what like and it was

everything. like what like and it was just so wrong in terms of the direction of the world and like what people actually wanted. And so I think like you

actually wanted. And so I think like you could imagine a world without Snapchat, without these inventions like I think the world would be like a a worse place.

You it's so it's so interesting right now there's a lot of concern about social media and the way that it makes people feel, right? What's fascinating

is when Snapchat is studied separately from social media, there's study after study, independent studies that show that Snapchat makes a positive impact on people's friendships, on their well-being. That is fundamentally

well-being. That is fundamentally different from social media because in those same studies, it shows that Instagram, Tik Tok, whatever, make people feel bad, right? And so, what I find so interesting is that like Snapchat itself represents something

different and a connection to your friends and family that actually makes your life better. And so even though it's challenging to continue operating a business to compete with these folks, you know, who have a very different worldview and and a you know a very

different direction for how they want it how they want the world to to move, I I I worry about a world without Snapchat.

I worry about a you know a world that doesn't try to fight for this different set of values and this different way of thinking about things. One of the benefits of reading a biography is you see like the evolution of an idea over

time where like your decision not to sell as a young man in his early 20s, right? You might have had like a a faint

right? You might have had like a a faint idea that you know first of all I think you love being an entrepreneur like entrepreneurs need businesses. What is

an entrepreneur that sold his business is like nothing. You're just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing. So like you shouldn't sell your ever ever sell your best idea. That's what I said um back in

best idea. That's what I said um back in 2018 when I made the first podcast about you. like this is I think you even said

you. like this is I think you even said this like I don't think I'm going to come up with a better idea than this.

So I'm going to now dedicate my life to working on my second best idea. How the

hell does that make sense for money that I'm going to get anyways in the future and most of which I won't even spend in my lifetime?

But you have that kernel of the idea.

But now the you just did this great articulation of that. It's like that idea almost like grew and solidified over time and then there's things in the future that had to happen that you

didn't know were going to happen that you realized that was the right choice.

such as social media gets a really bad rep. It has terrible PR. Um, you know,

rep. It has terrible PR. Um, you know, all the the polling is like, you know, people even though they're addicted to these things, they seem to not you make their lives better where like you

actually se if you separate that out and like you've built something where like people are actually happy and feel good about using the product, that's worth more than money.

100%. Yeah. and you get to have an impact at the scale of a billion people around the world who who use our service to to talk with their friends and family, build stronger relationships.

Like that's that's inspiring to me.

There was two conversations I had on this podcast that surprised me. The

first one was with Daniel of Spotify and the next one was Toby Luke of Shopify. I

get those back confused all the time.

Daniel said something interesting where he was even willing at the beginning. He

he thought uh Spotify needed to exist in the world that he would have he didn't want to sell it but if he thought selling it would increase the likelihood that it continues on this world then he was willing to do so and then so that

that shocked me and then Toby Luke said something that was fascinating where he thought if if it was not for the this new invention of AI and in its current uh format that he was close to find he

didn't think he would be the best CEO of Shopify so he would find somebody else to do that because all in both cases they wanted what was best for the company.

I think for me like I see Snapchat as the best possible vehicle to reinvent the computer. So if you think about

the computer. So if you think about Snapchat, we have this core cash flowing profitable business right in Snapchat that we're able to then use to reinvest in what has been a very long-term

speculative project to reinvent the the computer. And Snapchat has really been

computer. And Snapchat has really been in addition to changing the world in its own way a real vehicle for enabling this evolution of computing. And so I think for me that's one of the real benefits of running and controlling Snapchat

today is that we've been able to very consistently in invest in advanced technology and R&D over an incredibly long period of time to build a real competitive advantage but also to build a world-class product that we wouldn't

have been able to do without Snapchat.

Oh, I never even thought about that like that. So you use Snapchat as a means to

that. So you use Snapchat as a means to reinvent computing. It's an incredibly

reinvent computing. It's an incredibly important part of it because without a hugely profitable cash flowing. I mean,

Snapchat's almost a $7 billion revenue business, right? Almost in the Fortune

business, right? Almost in the Fortune 500, people, you know, uh, make fun of us for not being profitable enough, we're taking a lot of that core cash flow from Snapchat and using it to

reinvest in winning this future of computing. What's very unique about

computing. What's very unique about Snapchat is we've been able to do that now for, you know, we've invested in glasses for 12 years. We've been able to very consistently invest in a way that no VC would ever in a million years support. Would there ever been a world

support. Would there ever been a world where you only built software?

Um there's too much of like this art design background with you and then I'm sitting here as you're talking and describing this to me and I didn't even think about your business in those terms yet which is why it's valuable to sit down and

have conversations like this. Uh it's

like this guy's two heroes built the best hardware of all time in both of their industries.

Yeah. I I think ultimately and Jobs is famous for saying if you want to build great software you have to control the hardware.

100%. Yeah. I I think ultimately if you think about the the customer experience you're trying to create or the what what you're trying to create in the world ultimately you realize that hardware is

a necessity and realizing that vision essentially.

So the answer is no. There was no world in which Evan only builds software.

Think about how early we started doing it. I mean this was back in 2014.

it. I mean this was back in 2014.

We started investing in hardware.

Yeah. I think you're really misunderstood because like I I did an entire podcast about you. I've listened to all your

about you. I've listened to all your interviews and I'm still like learning things right now from talking to you.

That's fun, right?

Yeah. No, it's it's definitely a lot of fun, but like we need to do a better job of telling that story, man.

Well, I think the best way to tell a story is through the product, right? And

I think that's what's so exciting about this year and why I articulate it as a crucible moment because like we are inflecting and transforming Snapchat at the same time that we're launching a whole new product category that we've invented, you know. So this will be a a

seinal year for our our company.

So what does your schedule look like during a year like this? I've heard like insane. Yeah.

insane. Yeah.

Okay. So

it's completely insane.

It's untenable. No, it's it's a this is like a seven day a week job, you know.

How do you balance that though? Because

you have young kids at home and I heard in very intense times you were talking about sometimes you had to get up before they were awake and you went home every day after they were asleep. There's a

lot of days like that right now. I mean,

I'm back in definitely in that mode. I

always try to keep Sunday protected. You

know, we go to church as a family, we go to brunch, and then I spend the afternoon with our kids, and that's super important to me. Um, but other than that, uh, you know, it's it's full on.

So, early mornings, late nights all the time.

Yeah.

And your biggest issue is that you're redesign like you're inventing new hardware cuz is that like I don't want to diminish Snapchat, but it sounds like it's at scale, it's profitable, you're adding a lot of product features. With

Snapchat, we do need to reacelerate the advertising business, but I think given the transformation we've undertaken over the last three years of the advertising platform, like that that is coming, right? We're seeing the growth in the

right? We're seeing the growth in the small and medium customers. We're

diversifying the advertising business.

We've built this direct revenue business. So, I look at Snapchat and

business. So, I look at Snapchat and like I see a path, you know, to a lot more revenue over the over the coming years. And so, I think that's that

years. And so, I think that's that certainly has been a huge focus of the last several uh years. And then I think, you know, the core specs business this year will mark the real beginning, you know, of the next chapter of that story

as we transition from being, you know, a developer platform to a consumer product, which is really challenging thing to do. All right. So, you have an insane schedule. I have a feeling based

insane schedule. I have a feeling based on you have like this simmering intensity about you. Like, are these actually your favorite times to be

running the company?

Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Because every

decision, the way you spend every minute really matters. And I think that's

really matters. And I think that's exciting because I think it's a we're at a real inflection point in the company in terms of you know if you think about the last 12 years of my life that I've invested in you know creating this new

vision for what a computer can be and you know and I I almost said the number of days and in some number of days we're about to share that with the world and like that's incredibly incredibly exciting.

How do you handle the stress though?

Huge on meditation. Korea meditation

changed my life.

What's it called?

Called Ka.

Okay. Unbelievable. Meditation was like never like a fit for me, you know? I was

like they're like try TM, like learn your mantra. Like it just like never

your mantra. Like it just like never clicked. Ka is like incredibly

clicked. Ka is like incredibly energizing, you know, involves like breath work. And it's like to me it's

breath work. And it's like to me it's like uh I mean wow, you know, it's like it's super powerful.

Is this like a daily practice when I can? Yeah. And I I try to exercise every morning, you know, Korea as much as I can, you know, a couple days a week. Um

and obviously playing with our kids and hanging with my wife. Like that's the that's the stress management regime.

Yeah. I I feel like all the great entrepreneurs, it's like the the the the best quote I've ever heard describe this kind of mentality was this guy name her Keller who was the founder of Southwest Airlines which the most successful

airline and think about he's selling commodity product right uh most successful airline of all time. I think

he was profitable for 40 straight years and he was asked one time they're like how do you handle the stress? He's like

I don't handle it. I like it.

He's like I'm I'm not doing this. like I

wouldn't start a company in a hugely competitive environment if I wanted like to take an easy path through life.

But I think what he did there and like how he explained that what's really powerful about that and I think this is what a lot of founders do is they reframe it, right? Like if you can reframe stress as an opportunity, it's going to it's going to be great. I mean

in the early like I hated speaking publicly when we created our company. I

didn't like it. Like my my innate nature I mean this goes back to like growing up in the computer lab, right? Like I just did not want to do public speaking. I

didn't want to do companywide Q&A, you know? I'm like, if I want to communicate

know? I'm like, if I want to communicate with a company, I'll send an email kind of thing, right? Like it's crazy. And

like one of our board members was like, Evan, like it's your job. Like too bad.

Figure it out. And literally I was like, okay, I'm going to learn how to love it.

Like I'm going to learn how to love public speaking. I'm going to learn how

public speaking. I'm going to learn how to love doing a, you know, live Q&A with our team. And I do now. Like I love it.

our team. And I do now. Like I love it.

I love doing Q&A with our team. And so I think that ability to like reframe things that like appear like a challenge or feel like something you're uncomfortable with, like that's that's really important. Yeah, you'll see this

really important. Yeah, you'll see this in the history of entrepreneurship.

Thomas Edison, Henry Kaiser, Edwin Lan, they view it as pro uh problems or just opportunities and work close. It's like

this is an opportunity. We just have to get to work to actually do it. There's

been this new um thing that's popped up where I'm glad you you you like actually developed a skill set uh and to tell your own story to communicate this because companies are trying to hire

like a chief storyteller. It's like

yeah, that's the founder like Edwin Land. Go back again. We talked about

Land. Go back again. We talked about Edwin Land and Steve Jobs a lot today.

It's like they would tell you the person that is best able to tell and it's not even have to be that articulate. It's

just you care more about anybody else.

You know more about it than anybody else. Just educate us on what is why

else. Just educate us on what is why your product exists and what makes it special. And who else could do that but

special. And who else could do that but the person that was there when it was just one person, two people and a laptop. Yeah. I'll never forget like I I

laptop. Yeah. I'll never forget like I I when I was a lot uh younger, I was starting the company, I had the opportunity to meet uh President Clinton, right? And his advice was like

Clinton, right? And his advice was like the job is explainer chief. that is the job. Like you got to go around and

job. Like you got to go around and explain this stuff to everybody so they understand, you know, their role at Snap or Snap's role in the world. And I think that that's super valuable.

Well, you're doing a good job. I

appreciate you taking the time for this.

I do want to end on one of my favorite quotes. This is from the book that I

quotes. This is from the book that I read uh about you uh almost a decade ago.

The the the I guess I'll give a little context here. You dropped out of

context here. You dropped out of Stanford with five classes, six classes left, but you decided to walk with an empty for an empty diploma, right? and

you regretted it. And then you told this beautiful, this is a direct quote from you. It says, "It only recently occurred

you. It says, "It only recently occurred to me while preparing this, how totally absurd this whole charade was. It

reminded me that often times we do all sorts of silly things to avoid appearing different. Conforming happens so

different. Conforming happens so naturally that we can forget how powerful it is. We want to be accepted by our peers. We want to be part of the group. It's in our biology. But the

group. It's in our biology. But the

thing that makes us human are those times we listen to the whispers of our soul and allow ourselves to be pulled in another direction. It's very obvious

another direction. It's very obvious that you listen to the whispers of your soul. I'm very glad that people like you

soul. I'm very glad that people like you exist. Thank you very much for taking

exist. Thank you very much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah. Awesome, man.

Thanks.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please

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sure you listen to my other podcast, founders for almost a decade. I've

obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear

your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.