Exercise Doesn't Make You Lose Weight! Doctor Jason Fung

this calories in calories out model

doesn't work at all if you're trying to

lose weight what you need to do is Dr

Jason H the founder of intermittent

fasting whose influential work could be

the key to a healthier and even longer

life every continent is seeing this

increase in obesity but we put the blame

on the individual the problem is there's

something wrong with the message we're

giving people and I can go over a few

examples first of all exercise is really

good in a number of ways but in terms of

weight loss it's actually a very very

small effect the whole idea that you

need to eat as soon as you get up is

just false we know from twin studies

that 70% of your risk of becoming obese

is due to genetics but it doesn't

explain why the population became much

more obese and we know that you can't

cure obesity by saying eat fewer

calories it's about fixing the hormones

that are behind the calories if you want

to lose body fat you actually need to

extend the period of time that you're

not eating eating so you do some

intermittent fasting there's all this

data showing that fasting activates the

body it increases your energy your

concentration a Treatment available to

everybody for free and it will be

healthier for us so I need some advice

then what does your fast look like what

food should I be giving my body and in

what proportions the first thing you got

to do is I've got to talk to you about

these new injections people are getting

to lose weight I

think

quick one this is really really

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[Music]

deal Dr

Jason Hey Stephen how are you I'm really

really good this book here the Obesity

code unlocking the secrets of weight

loss why did you write this book what

was the sort of driving motivation

behind committing what must have been a

very long part of your life to this

subject

matter uh it's it was actually a very

interesting sort of Journey of Discovery

for me so I did my training in

Nephrology which is kidney disease so

I'm a kidney disease specialist and I

thought about weight loss sort of very

conventionally sort of calories in

calories out just watch what you eat

sort of thing and that's what's taught

to all doctors is that it's

extremely unhelpful for people it

doesn't work at all it doesn't work for

patients and it doesn't work for for for

doctors even right so doctors who want

to lose

weight they don't they don't use

calories and calories out because it

doesn't really work and we all know this

um every person has sort of counted

their calories and almost all of them

failed to succeed so the whole point was

how to get people to lose weight and so

I started to look into the literature

and I started to read about it and so on

I got very very interested in it and

again I I started to become very unhappy

with the discussion about calories and

calories out because the whole point was

that people had this idea that it was

energy balance right and there's this

sort of energy balance equation which is

uh calories in minus calories out equals

body fat right because body fat is a way

to store calories but that's not a very

helpful sort of description of how to

approach the problem right the problem

is not that people didn't realize that

they had to eat fewer calories or

increase their calorie expenditure the

problem was why were they eating more

calories than they could expend right

and it's because the body is is being

told to store energy right that's the

way it is that's why you're taking in

more calories or you're storing more

calories because your body body has

hormones that tell you to store calories

so there's a hormone called insulin for

example and if you give people insulin

so inject them with insulin which is a

drug for type two

diabetes almost everybody gains weight

so if you give somebody insulin they

gain weight if I gave you insulin you

would gain weight it has nothing to do

with the you know your willpower for

example if I gave you insulin you would

gain weight why because I'm giving your

body the instructions to store energy so

you're saying that weight gain and

obesity in particular isn't a function

of calories in calories out it is a

function of hormones it's a function of

hormones and it's sort of you have to

think about it in sort of levels right

so calories in calories out is true so

body fat is a storage is it's a way to

store energy which is calories equals

calories in calories out but that's not

the real question the question is why

are you storing more calories then

you're expending and it's because you're

telling your body to do so so for

example if if you take another equal

I'll give you an analogy say alcoholism

is alcohol in minus alcohol out right

same same idea or if you have a room

it's the number of people how how full

it is is how many people enter the room

or exit the room right so same same idea

right it's absolutely true so alcohol in

minus alcohol out equals how drunk you

equals how drunk you are so alcoholism

so can you simply cure alcoholism by

telling an alcoholic oh just drink less

alcohol than you expend it's like yes

you can say that and it's absolutely

true but it's not useful in any way

because you've never gotten to the

really the deeper understanding of why

that person is taking in more alcohol

right you have to get to that next level

and say what you know it's like going

one level deeper why why are they

drinking more alcohol maybe they're

depressed maybe they're addicted deal

with the addiction that is the way to

deal with alcoholism you can't cure it

just by saying drink less alcohol the

same way you can't cure the obesities by

saying eat fewer calories because you're

not understanding why the body is is

storing more energy with the amount of

information we now have the amount of

science we have one would expect that

obesity levels would be coming

down yeah unfortunately if you think

about the way most people think about it

it's mostly still in calories even in

the academic centers they all think

about sort of calories how to get

calories down how to reduce calories and

I always and I always say well it's not

about the calories right it's about

fixing the hormones that are behind the

calories like because you can choose to

eat fewer calories yes that's true but

you can't but you have to ask yourself

why are people

eating um so many calories right well

it's because they're hungry you can't

choose to be less hungry and therefore

you have to really talk about

controlling the hunger and controlling

the hormones which are behind the

calories that you eat and that's going

to be much more successful to you if you

take two different foods equal number of

calories and you eat them the hormonal

response to those calories are

completely different so you eat two

slices of white bread and jam all that

energy that so insulin spikes up because

it's very high and refined carbohydrates

all that energy goes straight into your

body fat and you've left none of it for

for for energy for your day by 10:30 now

you're ravenous and you go get yourself

a lowfat muffin again pure carbs insulin

spikes up all of that goes straight into

your your fat stores why because you

told it to remember that when you eat

white bread or muffins or refined

carbohydrates you're going to have this

insulin Spike which is going to tell

your body to store energy if you eat an

egg you don't get that Spike and Insulin

so that that energy that you've taken

those calories are there you can use it

and so what happens well that keeps you

full during the day if you're telling

your body to immediately store those

calories as body fat well guess what

over time you're going to gain body fat

because you told your body to do that if

you eat the egg and insulin's not

spiking up well you haven't told your

body to store that energy so it's going

to be around for you to use all day long

and you won't be hungry and you're not

going to be hungry because your body's

like why do I need to eat again because

you know you you basically have taken

the energy that you need I've got it

available right it's sort of like if you

go to the the the grocery store right

you can store food in the refrigerator

suppose you go to the grocery store put

all your food away lock it away in the

in the refrigerator now you have nothing

to eat right you're going to say oh I

need to go out and get some more food

right same thing with your body right so

if you take food

but you've also spiked up your insulin

you're going to lock away all those that

energy immediately into into your fat

stores it's not going to be available

for you to use well you're going to say

I'm going to go out and get more so you

haven't controlled the hunger that's

going to lead to the caloric intake

which is going to lead to the weight

gain people look at this through an

evolutionary lens and say you know we

just didn't have this much food so it's

the abundance and um ease of access to

food it's the fridges that we now have

if it's the you know we never had

fridges in our home so people point at

it and go well that's why people are

getting gaining weight and you know

we're suffering with obesity at epidemic

levels it's just because there's more

Supply and the brain is taking advantage

of it because once upon a time if we

didn't eat that jam and toast then we

would have you know maybe not have been

able to find food for another two weeks

or something yeah I don't think that's

the whole story because if you think

about it uh and people again uh um make

that assumption that we don't have any

control over uh our body fatness right

so they say well it's availables you're

going to take it right in fact that's

not true because we actually have a

number of different uh hormones that

tell us to stop eating okay so if you

eat you cannot simply keep eating and

eating and eating right if you go to an

all you can eat buffet at some point you

have to stop because you're full right

so there are systems very powerful

systems within our body that tell us to

stop eating so you eat food there are uh

stomach stretch receptors for example so

as your stomach stretches out it sends a

signal to your brain and says stop

eating if you eat a lot of protein uh it

activates a hormone called peptide YY

which tells you to stop eating if you

eat a lot of dietary fat you activate a

hormone called chosy ainin which again

tells you to stop eating these are very

powerful if you look in the wild there

are no obese Antelope there are no obese

Lions why because how much body fat your

you carry is actually very important if

you are obese as an antelope you're

going to get eaten if you are an obes

lion you're not going to catch any food

so therefore it's going to correct

itself so if I overeat now my body will

basically overcompensate by burning off

the extra calories to it absolutely so

if you eat a huge meal right you eat you

know you go to a big wedding or

something like that you eat a huge meal

the next day you're probably not that

hungry if you eat a giant steak so

you're activating all these satiety

hormones peptide y y chosy ainin you're

eating all this food well you may not be

hungry for the next day so that means

that my body has some kind of Baseline

weight yeah it will know whether you

should eat more or less so there's a

this concept called the sort of of body

set weight which is a sort of

thermometer that is your body sets a

weight that you should be at and if you

go above that weight or if you eat too

much it will activate hormonal systems

to bring it back down if you don't eat

enough it will also activate hormonal

systems to bring it up so it's like a

thermostat that you set you have in your

room for example you set the the room

temperature if it's too hot you're the

the room activates the air conditioning

if it's too cold it activates the heat

your body actually acts the same way if

you gain too much body fat your fat

cells for example will produce leptin

which is another hormone the leptin

tells your body to stop eating that's

really interesting so in the case of OB

Beast people their set point must just

be really high yes and that's the Crux

of the matter why is that set point

being overridden just like if you have a

room that's too hot and you look and you

say the thermometer is set for room

temperature why is it so hot in here

then you can say okay well what's the

problem and the problem is not you know

heat in versus Heat out right that's

that's a very simplistic way same thing

if your body has too much body fat you

got to then think about why are you

overcoming the normal compensatory

mechanisms that are happening that are

stopping you from eating a lot of it

relates to processing of foods of course

so if you take out so remember I talked

about stretch re receptors in the

stomach right so you eat natural natural

foods there's a natural break it

stretches the stomach you stop eating

well what's one way pull out all the

fiber process the foods turn it into say

a very fine dust that means it's

absorbed extremely quickly into the

blood stream so that means that pure

you've got Pure carbohydrate basically

mainlining it into your I like like an

IV your glucose spikes way up your

insulin spikes way up completely

unnatural right if you eat pure

carbohydrate instead of eating it with

you know proteins and fats it's going to

go it's going to shoot way high that's

unnatural and that's going to overcome

the

natural tendencies for you to stop

eating so you know you you've basically

overcome that that that that protective

mechanism because you've ultr processed

the the carbohydrates if you don't eat

any protein if you don't eat any fat

you're not activating peptide WI Y which

is the satiety hormone you're not

activated chinin all of a sudden you're

eating you know 500 calories of white

bread but you have zero satiety or if

you drink a Coca-Cola or a soda for

example I've always you know thought

about this it's like how can you take a

th000 calories for example in one of

those giant sodas you get at the ball

game or something and don't feel full at

all whereas if you took a steak that's

1,000 calories you'd be like I'm pretty

full I don't really feel like eating you

drink the soda you're like I really feel

like eating some chips or popcorn or

something why because it has zero

satiety interesting so if I'm if I've

got a baseball stadium what I want to do

is I want to make sure people get a soda

because then they'll also buy the chips

but if they just eat the chips you know

maybe they won't buy anything else but

the soda is going to um increase my

Revenue because it'll basically just

pass right through them it'll pass right

through them they're going to store all

that energy as calories but they're

going to want more because you haven't

made them full right so the the whole

point is that you have to think more

than about the calories there's more

there than just the calorie story

there's this whole hormonal balance

you're saying that overeating isn't just

a choice it's a hormon driven Behavior

it's a hormon driven Behavior I mean the

whole thing about obesity is is quite

interesting to me because if you think

about obesity if you think about uh in

the United States which is where I get a

lot of my data from um you know you have

maybe 70% of people overweight or obese

and it's going up every year it's been

going up every year since

1977 and if you think about that it

tells you that the problem is not

willpower the problem is not the people

the problem is the environment that they

find themselves in the food environment

that they find themselves in because you

can take an analogy say you have a

hundred children one of them fails well

that might be the child they didn't

study what if 70 of them fail would you

say it's it's each and every one of

them's fault or would you say it's more

likely that it's the teacher's fault I

think it's more likely that it's the

teacher's fault so if we have a 100

Americans and 70 of them are obese the

problem is likely not an individual

willpower problem the problem is likely

that there's something wrong with the

message we're giving people the

information we're giving people and the

food environment that we're finding our

eles in which is dominated by this sort

of calories in calories out thinking and

what's really unfair of course is that

we put the

blame on the Obesity or overweight on

the individual and we say well they let

themselves go and they didn't watch

themselves they weren't careful it's

their fault and that's the stigma that

comes with this whole calories in

calories out thinking because we say

it's their fault because they could

choose what they eat it's like yes they

could choose what they eat but they

didn't choose the food environment that

is telling them to eat all this ultr

processed food that is making all this

Ultra processed food available to them

that is telling them that all this Ultra

processed food is good for you so leptin

is this hormone that essentially brings

down my Hunger makes me less hungry is

it therefore possible that people are

becoming lepin resistant there is leapin

resistance the question again is why and

the way to think about it is it's sort

of this sort of balance right so insulin

if you give people insulin like if you

think about causes of obesity what

causes people to gain weight well if I

give you insulin you'll gain weight if I

give me insulin I'll gain weight so

insulin causes weight gain whereas

leptin will cause the opposite so it's

sort of the Seesaw body fat is nothing

more or less than uh a store of energy

right and you only store energy when

your body tells you our entire body runs

on hormones right nothing happens

without the hormonal system being

activated so insulin is pushing us to

gain weight lefting us is pushing us to

lose weight and what's happening is that

one is sort of overcoming the other

insulin is overcoming the leptin if

obesity isn't about a lack of will power

and it isn't just a case of people being

lazy or all those things that sometimes

some people stereotypically

assert I've also heard the

counterargument that obesity is a

function of our genetic makeup and our

we inherit obesity from our parents you

know is there any truth in Merit in that

um it's it's yes yes and no so yes there

is a very strong sort of genetic

predisposition to obesity so if you take

you know somebody with a family history

then look at the genetics about 70% of

your risk of becoming obese is due to

genetics and we know that from twin

studies for example what do we know from

twin studies if you take twins um and

raise them sort of in different

environments you know they actually turn

out very similarly so we know that

there's a there's a genetic component to

obesity so when they they sort of do the

uh calculations they say about 70% of

obesity is sort of genetically related

so if you take a a twin that comes from

originally a family that were obese and

you put them with a family that are not

obese yeah the child will still likely

become obese even with the family that

are not obese yeah so this was done in

obviously they they had uh twins that

were sort of separated at Birth compare

them after they've grown up and say

what's the sort of correlation between

the weight of the two and it's about 70%

so you have somebody who's very

overweight and you know twin a goes into

one family twin B goes into a second

family you know twin B uh is going to be

more prone to gaining weight even if

they're with a thin family right so the

environment has some role but it's it

it's the genetics have a very large role

too 17% of 70% is is is genetic so there

is however the part that's important is

that that doesn't explain why we have

obesity in the last 40 to 50 years

because the genetics of the world

population has not changed so if we're

seeing more obesity now and remember

this is not a a USA problem it's a it's

a worldwide problem we see it in Asia we

see it in Europe we see it in America we

see it in South America we see it

everywhere uh we see it in Africa so

every continent is seeing this increase

in obesity therefore it's not due this

this recent change within the last 50

years is not due to a change in genetics

so while yes it's true that there is a

strong genetic component that explains

my risk of say obesity compared to yours

but doesn't explain how the population

of the United States for example all of

a sudden became much more obese in

general so you're saying this is really

about a predisposition which basically

means your genetics make you more or

less likely for some reason um which is

a genetic reason to become obese

when you make certain lifestyle choices

um but that is a predisposition which

means that and I guess your work asserts

that the predisposition relates to your

hormones response to the foods that we

eat so really it's really a a gen genc

response to foods which is based on your

hormone response we all have a certain

genetic sort of predisposition to

obesity right so all of us have a

certain risk some people obviously they

eat whatever they want and they don't

gain weight we all know people like that

right and some people sort of look at a

muffin and they gain weight so you have

that genetic predisposition so that

explains the difference between two

people but it doesn't explain the

difference within an entire population

like if you take the entire population

of the Earth or even of America or

whatever the genetics haven't changed

sufficiently of that entire population

to say why there's more obesity now than

before so we're inheriting our parents

hormone

response uh yeah but we're we're we're

the the hormone response that we have is

going to be dependent a lot on genetics

but the food choices we're making are

different than our our parents so

they're eating different things if you

think back about what your grandmother

ate and stuff it's different than the

food environment that we find ourselves

in right now and that food environment

is creating this sort of uh is sort of

increasing the risk uh over over time

that's the sort of uh what what we need

to try and figure out and why we need to

have a deeper discussion as opposed to

calories because we've been having this

sort of calories discussion for you know

30 40 years it just hasn't been very

helpful you call it a a deception you

say in chap part two of your book you

say the calorie deception yeah and you

say there are five wrong assumptions

about obesity and weight loss the

calorie Cal calorie in calorie out are

independent of each other so won't

trigger one another and this interesting

point about the basil metabolic rate

being stable yeah is that in essence

because people you know people will

often say I have a low metabolism it's

kind of like a word in culture if

someone is um obese often the the

diagnosis is they have a low metabolism

yeah is there any Merit in that is that

true oh absolutely the question so when

you think about so body fat you think

about the energy balance equation body

fat equals calories in minus calories

out this often leads people to say well

just eat 500 few calories and you'll

lose a pound of fat per week it's it's

unquestionably false because every

single study that we've done over the

last 50 years shows that if you eat 500

fewer calories then over time depending

on what foods you're eating if

eventually your body will just burn 500

fewer calories so that's your basil

metabolic rate the number of calories

that your body is expending in one day

so we see this in almost every single

study we've known about it for like 80

years at least you eat fewer calories

your body Burns fewer calories well

that's going to limit how much weight

you're going to lose right so this idea

that just eat fewer calories will

automatically lead to weight loss is

completely false because we know that

eating fewer calories leads also to

burning fewer calories so you eat 500

less your body Burns 500 less and you're

not losing any body weight so I go on a

diet let's say because I'm trying to

lose weight my metabolism lowers to meet

the calorific Restriction that I've

imposed on myself yeah what then happens

when I come off the diet does my

metabolism stay generally yes low yeah

so that's that yo-yo dieting effect so

say you start with 2,000 calories in

2,000 calories out you're not gaining

weight you're not losing weight right

now you decide okay I'm going to go on a

diet so you go down to, 1500 calories

thinking that you're going to burn 2,000

and the body Fat's going to provide 500

right that's how you balance that

equation however if you eat the wrong

foods and you're eating all the time so

you're eating 10 times a day eight times

a day like people say you should you're

eating low fats or you're eating tons of

carbs you're spiking your insulin

insulin prevents you from burning body

fat Okay so we've again we've known

about this for 80 years so now you eat

1500 calories but you're keeping your

insulin levels really high so few

calories but lots of high carb foods

eating all the time insulin stays high

you're you're taking in 1500 your body

is now burning 2,000 but you can't burn

any body fat so the calories that are

stored in your body fat cannot be cannot

be sort of taken out it's like it's in

the bank and the bank is closed it's you

can't take it out so what's going to

happen well you don't have a balanced

equation so that cannot cannot happen so

what happens is that in order to balance

that equation because your insulin

levels are high you're eating 1500

calories coming in your body can only

burn 1500 calories your metabolic rate

has just now gone down by 500 calories

and guess what you're not losing any

body fat so that's an example of how the

whole the calories idea is completely

wrong because if you continue to do that

what's going to happen over time is that

you you get tired because you're burning

fewer calories you don't have enough

energy to generate body heat so you're

cold you're tired you're hungry so you

say okay I'm going to go to 1,800

calories so now you're eating 1,00

calories but you're only burning 1500

calories guess what you gain weight and

you say but how can I gain weight I'm

eating less than I did yes you you are

eating less than the 2,000 calories you

used to eat you're eating 1,800 but

you're eating the wrong Foods very high

insulin Foods so therefore you're going

to gain weight in fact everybody says

that and and all the all the

nutritionists all the doctors just they

just don't believe them they say you're

lying you're cheating you're eating more

than you think so this explains

something that happened with one of my

friends which I always puzzled me he

swears by the calories in calorie out

thing I've spoken about him a few times

he posts about it online as well

um and he he actually managed to get a

pretty much like six-pack abs pretty

much and at the time it appears that he

was eating a lot of Domino's Pizzas a

lot of pizzas and I was thinking how's

this guy eating all these pizzas but

he's using his calories in calorie out

thing uh and then when the pizza stopped

yeah there was this yo-yo effect yeah

where he managed to get to basically

what I describe as a six-pack or there

thereabouts and then um stopped eating

all uh stopped the diet per se and then

there was this big yo-yo effect which I

imagine is what you said there what he's

done is he's lowered his metabolism then

when he goes up just a little bit it all

comes back it all comes back and then

some and then some yeah absolutely so

this form of

dieting is actually over the long term

probably going to make you gain weight

oh it's it's very detrimental and that's

what yo-yo dieting we all know it's very

detrimental but think about it

differently right so let's take a

different example with the same calories

which is why I keep saying you have to

think about more than the calories you

have to think about what the hormones

are because that's the instructions to

your body food contains calories energy

but it contains instructions as to what

to do so let's take an example you're

eating 2,000 calories in 2,000 calories

out now you go on a diet you want to you

take in, 1500 but what you do is you do

some intermittent fasting when you fast

insulin is going to fall that's the

whole point insulin is a hormone that

goes up when you eat it goes down when

you don't eat right so when you eat eat

insulin goes up your body wants to store

energy when you don't eat insulin goes

down your body says I have no energy I

have no food coming in please take it

out of storage so now you take 1500

calories but you do intermittent fasting

so you're allowing your insulin levels

to fall now 1500 calories are coming in

insulin levels are low your body wants

to burn 2,000 calories it says well

insulin levels are low let me take 500

calories from my body fat guess what you

have 500 coming from your body fat you

have 1,500 coming from your foods you

burn

2,000 it's a balanced equation so

instead of the opposite situation so and

and you see that the calories are the

same you went from 2,000 in to 1500 in

but what the difference was that you

allowed insulin to fall which allowed

you to burn body fat right it's the

hormonal signal that says please take

energy out open up the doors so that

body fat can come out and this is the

piece that's missing because people are

all all like well I'm this I'm that and

it's like well why can't you burn the

fat that's on your body cuz there's 200

300,000 calories of body fat why can't

you access it it's because you haven't

activated the right hormones so that you

can access it so now if you do

intermittent fasting you eat, 1500

calories you take 500 calories out your

body is burning 2,000 now all of a

sudden if you go off your diet and you

go back to 2,000 calories guess what you

don't gain weight you don't lose weight

same as before whereas before you go

even to 1,800 calories you lost weight

but the difference was not the calories

it was always 2,000 to 500 the

difference was you paid attention to the

hormones that you're telling your body

and the insulin is sort of the primary

hormone there's actually a lot more

there's you know there's there's there's

cortisol is is a very important hormone

there's other hormones you mentioned

burning calories there one of the

thoughts around the calories in Cal

calories out model is that you can just

exercise and if you burn a th000

calories exercising then that gives you

a little bit of a reserve there to eat

more for example yeah and it's probably

a very very small effect for for a

couple of reasons so we know that uh if

you

exercise and and I say this exercise is

really good for you in a number of ways

flexibility strength core all kinds of

things so very very important but in

terms of weight loss it's actually a

very very small effect why because one

the amount of calories you burn during

exercise are simply not that high so if

you look at you know if you do walking I

mean if you did eight hours of

high-intensity exercise yeah you're

going to burn a lot of calories but most

people I deal with which are sort of

middle-aged and higher you're talking

about sort of a quick walk or you know

45 half an hour three times a week sort

of thing and if you ever go on the

treadmill and you ever ever watch that

calorie counter on the treadmill you

know it goes up very very slowly right

you'll do half an hour and it'll be up

to like 120 calories or something like

that right so that exercise really

didn't burn off very many calories it's

the amount that you'd get in a couple of

cookies for example right so it's it's

just numerically it's just very small so

if you're you're taking in if your body

is normally using 2,000 calories with

your brain generating body heat your

heart your lungs your liver they're

using 2,000 calories and now you go up

to 2100 calories well percentage wise

it's not a huge deal right the other

problem with exercise is that it tends

to actually cause you to eat more so uh

again we've had Decades of study for

this if you exercise during the exercise

you have uh loss reduced appetite so you

have ex it's called exercise induced

anorexia so in the middle of a

basketball game you don't suddenly go oh

wow I'm really hungry right because your

your blood is flowing in your you know

in your muscles and so on uh you're not

thinking about The Hunger So Hunger

actually goes down during exercise but

after exercise we see this rebound so we

see that people are actually more hungry

after exercise and if you're hungrier

after exercise it's going to cause you

to tend to gain more weight in fact

there's this very interesting study that

was done a few years ago in Harvard

where they measured the sort of calorie

difference that you get with uh for for

children um in certain activities so

they said okay what if a child is

watching TV what's the average uh

caloric difference and it was like plus

100 calories per hour so for every hour

of TV they're sort of positive 100

calories over time right and that makes

sense you're just sitting there when you

look at mild exercise it's about the

same it's about positive 100 calories so

the only way that happens is that if

that that exercise is causing you to eat

more right and you say well why are you

eating more it's like well because

you're you're hungry like the exercise

is inducing you to eat more and that's

going to make it difficult to lose

weight you say in the book in chapter 4

that 95% of weight loss is Diet yeah and

that's the reason why exercise it's very

hard to exercise enough to lose weight

and and and that's not to say that you

shouldn't exercise it's it you really

should exercise everybody should

exercise but if you're trying to lose

weight you still got to focus on the

main topic which is the foods that you

eat which is not just the calories it's

about the types of food that you eat

which is going to affect the hormonal

balance and also how often you eat if

you're eating all the time versus if

you're eating only eating very

infrequently then you're going to have a

different hormonal balance that is going

to affect your weight as well an

American survey of more than 60,000

adults and children revealed that in

1977 most people ate three times a day

by 2003 most people were eating five to

six times a

day

yeah yeah this is the whole idea of sort

of eating all the time and this I find

fascinating because it was this sort of

inadvertent change in our diet that we

never talked about right so in 1977 we

told people eat lots of carbs okay so we

know that that's in print for sure the

American government said eat 55 to 60%

carbs eat less fat what happened is that

you know in 1977 people ate breakfast

lunch and dinner no snacks if you wanted

an after school snack your mom said no

you're going to ruin your dinner if you

wanted a bedtime snack your mom would

say no you should have ate more at

dinner right no

problem but what happened is that as we

started to eat sort of a lot of carbs

what happened is exactly is what we

discussed before you eat two slices of

bread in the morning with Jam you have

no satiety insulin spikes way up glucose

spikes way up but then it crashes

because you get hungry again then you

get hungry at 10:30 so you go around

looking for a low-fat muffin and it was

because you know you know your your your

your sugars are going down your

insulin's going down so now you're

eating midm morning snack then you eat a

big plate of pasta then you get ravenous

at like 3:00 so you go find yourself

some crackers or something like that

right and then so now you're having a

midm morning snack you're having

mid-afternoon snack then you're having a

bedtime and that's the average American

by 2003 is eating six five six times a

day but they're saying hey I'm eating so

low fat this must be the right way to

eat this must be good for me so now this

snacking becomes institutionalized

whereas pre- 1977 snacks are an

Indulgence right it's not something good

for you you it's something bad for you

but hey once in a while you indulge then

it becomes institutionalized as

something that every single one of us

should be doing and we should never be

without food for more than an hour and a

half let's think about this very simply

okay so if you eat your insulin's going

to go up your body is going to store

calories because you're told it to if

you don't eat or if you fast your body

is your your insulin is going to go down

you're going to bring those calories

back out of storage right so you're

going to burn calories you eat you store

calories you don't eat you burn calories

very simple so why would you want to eat

all the time that makes no sense at all

if you want to lose body fat you

actually need to extend the period of

time that you're not eating in other

words extend your fasting period and get

rid of all the snacks in order for you

to have enough time that your insulin is

low when insulin is low it's going to

allow fat burning which is going to

allow you to pull those calories back

out you're cited as being really the

founder of modern intermittent fasting

and I've heard people talk about

intermittent fasting on this show over

and over and over and over again now but

the internet says that it really came

from you I know that inter fasting has

been happening for thousands of years

but the idea of it as a tool for weight

loss they say it came from you because

in 2013 2014 really nobody was talking

about it from a medical standpoint like

what's happening in the body why is it

good why is it bad and really I was for

years sort of this one voice in the

wilderness that was saying like hey this

is a tool for us if you want to lose

weight because it's important then you

can just set aside a period of time that

you don't eat at the time people thought

it was extremely bad for you and I I

looked through all the literature and I

said well why is it bad for you and they

had all these reasons there's all these

myths about intermittent fasting and and

how it's going to cause you to gain

weight and be tired and hungry and all

these sorts things I said well no

there's actually a lot of data here over

the last you know 2,000 years that we've

used intermittent fasting and they're

simply not true and I can go over a few

of those but that's why there was nobody

talking about it at the time and that's

where I started to sort of bring it into

the uh sort of public Consciousness that

this is a tool that's all it is were you

attacked for that at the time oh

absolutely like I got I got attacked

from all sides I you know doctors were

coming after me dietitians were coming

after me everybody thought I was going

to do so much harm and the funny part

was that you know as I think back as I

spoke to a lot of colleagues a lot of

colleagues would say to me you know what

I used to do that when I was in training

we did that all the time we'd go 24

hours without eating because we're in

the o or we're in the ER or we were busy

so we did that constantly and nothing

bad happened and I remember thinking you

know what as a doctor I actually tell

people to fast all the time if you have

to go for surgery you need to fast if

you after surgery you need to fast if

you do fasting blood work you need to

fast so why is it that I'm actually

telling people to fast all the time and

yet for weight loss you shouldn't fast

that doesn't make any sense and

physiologically from a body standpoint

it doesn't make any sense uh one of the

things people talked about was you know

it's going to make you eat more later

it's going to make you more hungry your

basil metabolic rates go down this was

one of the big myths of intermittent

fasting that's going to cause the

so-called starvation mode right and this

is the idea that your basil metabolic

rate will fall so low that when you do

start to eat you're going to gain weight

again so I said well let's think about

this you can do a study where you take

somebody say you for example and you

could fast them for four days and

measure how much how many calories

they're burning their basil metabolic

rate on Day Zero before the fast and

measure them four days into the fast and

see how many calories you're burning so

on Day Zero they say you're you're

burning say 2,000 calories a day on day

four of zero food you don't eat any food

for 4 days they measure how much

calories you're burning your body is

burning 2200 calories your basil

metabolic rate didn't go down it went up

your body's activating itself during

fasting which is fascinating because if

you're trying to lose weight dropping

that matal metabolic rate is death like

if you drop that metabolic rate it's so

hard to lose weight that's what the

calorie restricted diets did that's what

the lowfat diets did the eating all the

time did but when you actually fast your

metabolic rate went up and we see this

in study after study and the reason is

actually basic physiology it's actually

medical physiology like first year

medical school stuff when you don't eat

what happens in your body from a hormone

standpoint is that your insulin is going

to fall you're going to allow your body

to start using the calories that are in

the body at the same time other hormones

go up so the sympathetic tone goes up

which is your fight ORF flight response

your cortisol levels go up because again

it's an activation and your growth

hormone goes up because those hormones

are going to start telling your body to

start pulling calories out so you're

actually activating yourself think about

of the wild if you see a Hungry Wolf is

that wolf just sort of you know all like

lethargic no he's activated he's

actually more dangerous than any other

wolf as opposed to say a lion who just

ate because when you just eat you just

want to lie there you know you you want

to digest your food you have no energy

so people say wow your your your

metabolic rate is going to go down if

you fast no the the truth is actually

the opposite it goes up you've got me

thinking about food as an instruction

I'm giving my body because if I eat this

food it's going to have this impact on

my hormones which is going to have this

impact on my body so if we View food as

an instruction to the body we talked a

little bit about the timings of eating

and a little bit about fasting I want to

get into that a little bit more but

breakfast I read that you didn't think

most people need

breakfast yeah the the whole idea that

you need to eat as soon as you get up is

just false so there's this whole um

thing about breakfast now you will

always break your fast think about the

actual word right break fast it's the

meal that breaks your fast which tells

you that in the English language we

accept that your body should have a

fasting period every day why there's a

period of time that you're supposed to

feed you eat instant goes up you store

calories then there's supposed to be a

period of time that you fast that's

after dinner until the next day's Meal

which is breakfast right so say you stop

eating at 6 p.m. you eat at 8:00 a.m.

that's a 14-hour period where your body

is not eating eating it's fasting and

therefore it's going to use calories

right but the word breakfast tells us

that that's actually a normal pattern

this normal cyclical pattern you feed

then you fast right if you eat all the

time your body's just going to store

energy and never have a period to burn

energy so okay well what's going to

happen you're going to gain weight I

read as well that breakfast eaters

averaged

539 extra calories per day compared to

those that skipped breakfast and that's

a finding that's consistent with other

trials that was on page 132 of the

Obesity code yeah so the more often you

eat in general the more calories you

take in so if you eat three times a day

you or six times a day then you know if

you eat three times a day compared to

two times a day for example you'll in

general eat less because it's harder to

eat that you know big meal so say you

eat once a day versus three times a day

if you eat once a day it's not always

easy to eat three meals worth of

calories all in one sitting because you

get full do you fast oh I do that

regularly yeah and what does your fast

look like cuz I've heard of all these

different types of fasting 36 hours 72

hours oh yeah 14 hours there's no rules

for fasting you could do you know it

could be 16 hours so 14 hours remember

is sort of a baseline 12 to 14 hours

right that just means you're not eating

after dinner that's it um and so if you

want to lose weight that's probably not

strong enough to make you lose weight

because 12 to 14 hours is sort of just

this Baseline that people had in the 70s

um so you can go to 16 hours for example

and you shrink that by either eating

breakfast a little later or eating

dinner a little earlier but you can do

more than that you can do say a 24-hour

fast you could eat two meals a day say

eat between 12 and six that's a six-h

hour eating window or you could eat once

a day which is like a 24-hour fast or

you could even go multiple days uh

without eating because again your body

is smart like our your body knows what

to do if you have all those calories

sitting on your body right 100,000

calories sitting in body fat and you

don't eat for three days well you need

6,000 calories well you have 100,000

200,000 so what's the problem take it

out of your body fat let your body eat

your body fat that's what fasting is

doing for you and it's totally natural

because that's what it's there for that

body fat is not there for books is there

for you as a source as a store of

calories so fasting just lets you use

that there's nothing wrong with it

people talk about Hunger for example but

again hunger is very interesting because

people think it's the amount of time

that you haven't eaten but it's not true

it's actually hormonally mediated so if

you think about Hunger I actually found

this really fascinating so if you look

at studies of when people are the most

hungry and the least hungry on average

people are the most hungry at 8:00 p.m.

and the least hungry at 8:00 a.m. so in

the morning time you actually the least

hungry that you will be all day that's

just an average and at 8 8:00 p.m. in

the evening time you are the most hungry

so 8:00 a.m. is the period of time that

you've gone the longest without food so

why are you the least hungry it's

because it's hormonally mediated when

you wake up at 500 a.m. your body

actually has this surge of hormones

growth hormone cortisol and uh

sympathetic tone which is already

getting you prepared for the day it's

starting to release some of the stored

glucose from your body fat from your

sugar stores at 5:00 a.m. so your body

has already prepared you for the day

ahead without you even doing anything

that's why people in general are not

hungry at 8: a.m. I've got to talk to

you about these um these new injections

people are getting to lose weight yeah

and the role that they must be playing

in our hormone balances what are those

bloody things called the gp1s gp1s

there's another name for it isn't there

yeah uh well it's there's the drug name

which is uh OIC is the is the American

name and these are all in a class called

gp1s and essentially again very

interesting because they

essentially really reduce the appetite

which goes to show you that and people

lose weight like a lot of weight and

they keep it off so using them like a

billionaire friend of mine that's very

big in a certain industry uses a z kind

of Elon Musk came out and said he he

used it yeah as mic as well um I don't

I'm not I I I don't have any problem

with the OIC because again if you think

about it what it's telling you the the

lesson it's teaching you about weight

loss is that it's not about controlling

the calories because the OIC doesn't

burn any calories it's about controll

controlling your hunger it's about that

one level deeper why are you taking so

many calories so if you simply reduce

the hunger you're going to naturally eat

fewer calories which is going to cause

weight loss and that's what this OIC

doeses it really reduces your appetite

to very low levels how it it's it's it's

this this hormone called gp1 uh which is

a natural sort of hormone it's it's

released mostly in the intestines in the

distal intestine and the small intestine

and and in response to certain foods it

it goes up right so when you eat the

body has a homeostatic mechanism so

again remember you know people think

that we're just eating machines we eat

until you know we explode sort of thing

but that's not true when you eat you

actually activate the

gp1 along with other hormones there's

multiple hormonal systems the gp1 is the

one we're interested in you activate gp1

which then sets into motion the the the

instructions for you to stop stop eating

right so the act of eating sort of sets

in motion that whole feedback loop to

stop right so this is homeostasis which

is trying to keep things at a proper

level does that mean if you eat slower

uh you'll be less you'll eat

less there's probably

not yeah probably it's true um you know

although it's probably mostly true that

if you eat really really fast that you

don't have enough time for this sort of

homeostatic mechanisms to kick in so you

don't have enough time to stop eating um

but the GP 1es then go to the brain so

they do certain things they help with

digestion so they increase insulin

response and then they go to the brain

it crosses um the the the bloodb brain

barrier so the glp 1's gets released by

the act of eating goes into the brain

crosses and is active um in the sort of

midbrain area that tells your body to

stop eating what these gp1s do of course

is that it's a uh it it gives you the

hormone that tells you to stop eating

even though you haven't eaten it's sort

of that's that's the way the drug works

so then what people tell you is that you

know they're just not hungry and if

they're not hungry then they don't eat

and when they don't eat of course

insulin Falls and you start to burn

calories and lose weight but it wasn't

about controlling the calories it was

about controlling the hunger that was

the important part of it it's the

hormones right every successful drug to

gain or lose weight right is a hormone

it's a hormone based because that's

instructions to the body food is energy

and food is instructions you change the

instructions and you you change the

hormone this whole history of fiber

thing has been so interesting to me

because in the last six months so many

of the nutritionists I've spoken to have

really impressed upon me that we are

fiber deficient and I'm wondering how

that happened um well I think it was

part of the processing uh thing so

taking out fiber is a great way to make

foods more appealing if you will um so

what happens is that if you take um

flour for example and you have a lot of

fiber in it then the digestion is slowed

so what you get is a slower rise so you

take flour and you put a lot of fiber in

it well instead of uh having this huge

spike in insulin which you're going to

get is a much slower spike in insulin

when you have the huge spike in insulin

it basically overloads your system and

it makes you feel you know gives you

this big hit sort of like if you have

like cocaine for example you know it's

it's turned into a very fine powder then

you snort it so you got this massive

sort of Spike same thing with um you

know carbohydrates if you don't have any

uh fiber you you pull all the fiber out

by processing you get this massive sort

of unnatural Spike and your body says oh

that's great great it tastes great I

really love it and you get people who

are sort of addicted to it because that

big spike is going then going to release

dopamine and dopamine is a pleasure

hormone so you eat you know cookies or

whatever highly processed foods you get

this sort of pleasurable response and

that makes you crave it if you have a

lot of fiber it acts almost sort of like

an antidote to that carbohydrate because

you're slowing down that release what

food are high in fiber well mostly

unprocessed Foods so the the things like

beans and if you're having if you're

eating uh whole grains for example

compared to others then it's going to

have a reduction in the speed of

absorption so it's again not about the

calories necessary or even necessarily

about the carbohydrates because you're

still eating the same amount of

carbohydrate but you're slowing down the

speed at which is absorbed which is

going to change the instructions that

you give your body if you have a massive

spike in glut glucose you get this

massive dopamine surge right and your

body's like yo love it the next time

you're like okay give me that refined

carbohydrate what about protein because

we we tend to think a protein is

something that you know is super great

for weight loss yeah protein is probably

uh sort of inter it's not bad I mean the

main thing is cutting down the

carbohydrates but you know in the OBD

code I really talk about cutting the

processing down because uh proteins

usually don't come as pure protein right

in nature you never find like you know

how you have like whey powder protein or

whatever you get the only way you can do

that is by processing the heck out of

food to get some kind of pure protein it

doesn't exist in nature like it almost

doesn't exist in maybe there's a few

examples but when you eat meat you think

okay there's a lot of protein but that's

actually a lot of fat in there too right

um if you eat anything else that has

protein it's it's rarely uh all protein

you know very lean meats like chicken

breast and stuff are going to be higher

in protein but there's still a lot of

other stuff in there and it's very rare

that somebody will eat just all pure

100% protein it tends to be hard to eat

like the fat brings a lot of flavor and

so on so it's a bit of an unnatural way

to eat sure if you if you're to eat a

lot of protein it does Spike insulin so

it does have some effect to gain weight

but it's actually a very um inefficient

uh macronutrient that is your there's

three macronutrients there's

carbohydrates there's um fat and there's

protein your body stores energy or

calories in two ways there's car glucose

which is carbohydrate and it stores it

as body fat which is fat right it

doesn't protein is not a way for the

body to store energy so when you're

eating a lot of protein it's very

difficult for it to turn it into a

storage mechanism like you know so you

eat glucose and you eat fat you can

store glucose and you can store fat but

you eat protein but you don't really

store it as a source of energy so if all

foods then increase our insulin

levels I guess the best solution is to

fast uh fasting is certainly one way but

just changing the foods to uh other ones

because if you look at the insulin uh

release in processed foods versus

unprocessed Foods there's a huge

difference so if you eat eat sort of uh

highly refined foods like white bread

for example then you're going to have a

very different response in insulin

compared to sort of um a whole a whole

food so unprocessed Foods in general

your body knows how to handle like we've

been eating them for thousands of years

um but certainly anytime you eat your

insulin is going to go up you're giving

your body instructions to store energy

so the solution is to eat less often

what if you do a juice fast juice fast

of course is not a real fast because

you're you're taking a lot of sugars

what you think of juice fasting um I'm

generally I I I think it's less

effective than regular fasting and it

really depends on how much juice you

take if you take a lot of juice you

could easily get you know thousands of

calories plus a lot of sugar if you do

it you know cucumber juice and stuff

that's very low in sugar and kale juice

then it could be very very healthy for

you because there's vitamins and stuff

there so it all depends on how it's done

however the um the fasting is a way for

you to sort of clean out the body so you

can clean out the glucose if you have

excess body fat you're you're going to

use it right so again way to clean it

out and then there's this whole process

called autophagy which is just

fascinating and autophagy is this um so

it's been very topical because in 2016

one of the key researchers was given the

Nobel Prize in medicine so it's it's a

very important process that's been

relatively recently discovered what they

discovered is that when you don't eat

protein particularly but when you fast

your body activates this thing called

autophagy and it breaks down some of the

subcellular organs which sounds really

bad subcellular or organs yeah so uh you

know these are sort of like the organs

within the cell so it's not like the

liver but there's something called

organel within a cell and some of that

is broken down so basically these

proteins and so on within the cell your

body gets rid of that and you think oh

well that sounds really bad but it's not

it turns out that it's very very good

for you because it's an opportunity for

your body to get rid of all this old

protein old junky protein and at the

same time remember that you're fasting

your growth hormone levels are shooting

up through the roof so like a you know

two three day fast your growth hormone

levels might go up five times so you're

getting rid of all the old stuff and

then when you eat again you're actually

got growth hormone to produce new

proteins so Essence you're getting rid

of the old you're bringing in the new

it's basically the process of

Rejuvenation could this be a very

important way to get rid of some of the

chronic illnesses of aging and there's

lots of data uh you know talking about

uh you know Alzheimer's disease there's

talk people talking about cancers

there's people talking about just

general aging you know Dr Chris Palmer

talking about mental disorders we're all

talking about insulin and overeating and

diet as a really important component of

not just diabetes and weight but all of

these diseases mental

illnesses uh you know chronic uh

illnesses like Alzheimer's disease

neurologic illnesses and there's all

this data that suggests that autophagy

and fasting as a way to activate

autophagy could be actually extremely

beneficial for you which is fine when we

used to do it and and you know what's so

interesting is that

people seem to have already known about

it like you see it in almost every major

religion there's periods of fasting

right it's like why did they do that

because it was good for them through

trial and error or whatever they realize

that hey periodically abstaining from

food makes us

stronger if you eat all the time

constantly day in day out week and week

out month in month out that's not that

good for you there are periods that you

should feast and there are periods you

should fast so religion set days or

weeks or months even where you should

fast so it's like whoa why did they do

that and are they just way ahead of us

in terms of understanding the human body

like we get so you know enamored of our

own you know intelligence and Science

and so on that we think they're you know

that they didn't know what they're

talking about maybe maybe they knew more

about what they were talking about and

science is just catching up and saying

oh this process of autophagy that you

activate with fasting this could be

really important for longevity uh for

other things I'm not saying you should

do it like every month or whatever if

you look at the way that people do it

they don't do it like you know they

don't do like five days a month or

something it's they do it once a year or

once every few months how long does a

toughage you take to kick in is it 72

hours did you say um nobody knows but

probably it's and it depends on probably

how much protein you eat protein is the

key um sort of when you eat protein

autophagy just stops so low protein you

can activate it it's probably somewhere

around 20 to 30 hours so you'll see a

lot of religions for example they'll

have like a 24-hour fast right one day

that you're not supposed to eat or

something like that and maybe that's the

way to cleanse your body not just of the

glucose and the fat but also the excess

proteins that are are are old they're

junky I mean you think about renovating

your bathroom or something like that

right the first thing you got to do you

got to throw out the you know 1970s tub

and the avocado green toilet that's the

first thing you got to do you got to get

rid of it you got to break down before

you can rebuild better well autophagy

might be that way to break down some of

the stuff that you actually can't break

down any other way if your body's full

of all this junky

protein you can't get rid of it is there

an evolutionary explanation for the role

of autophagy do you think I think there

is actually I think there's a huge uh

number of reasons why people uh do it

one of it um this whole idea that

fasting actually activates the body for

example um is is very interesting

because I think it's like if you're a

caveman for example or cave woman and

it's winter and there's nothing to eat

if your body starts to shut down then

evolutionarily you're going to die right

because you have less energy you can't

go out and Hunt so our body is just not

that stupid so what it does it says okay

well I'm going to give you more energy

so I'm going to activate the body but

then I'm going to uh change where you're

getting your energy from you're not

going to get the energy from the food

you're going to get it from your body

fat stores which is your stored food

right you stored food for a reason so

that's why I think some of the the

fasting has a lot of evolutionary

benefits because it increases your

energy it it it lowers the glucose so if

if you look at the blood glucose the

blood glucose goes down so in times of

stress and so on your your body actually

naturally fasts if you get sick you get

a flu or something you stop eating first

thing you do right you just want to

drink some water and stuff why because

your body wants to lock down the glucose

because the bacteria love glucose your

body can run on fat but the bacteria

want the glucose so you fast to lock

down the glucose so there's a lot of

evolutionary reasons why the fasting

might be good for you know bacterial

infections taking care of things

increasing your energy increasing your

concentration at a time that you're not

like when you're not eating you're

actually getting more mental capacity

and more energy because you need it in

order to go hunt interesting as you'll

know if you've listened to this podcast

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is what is the most interesting thing or

the most you know use the word

interesting a lot or fascinating what is

the most fascinating thing that we

haven't talked

about I think to me the most fascinating

thing is uh other than for intermittent

fasting because a lot of the stuff we

thought about it was wrong uh in fact

the opposite but the the most

interesting thing I think is in the

field of type 2 diabetes because it's

such an important disease um if you look

at the number of people being affected

with type two diabetes it's skyrocketing

so we had since the 1970s an increase in

obesity then we had an increase in type

two diabetes and I think the most

fascinating thing the most promising

thing I've heard in a long time is that

you can actually start to reverse this

disease by changing the diet and and I

think what's interesting is that you

have to understand that type 2 diabetes

is largely a dietary disease and so we

treated it with drugs for a long time

and if you give drugs to a dietary

disease well you're never going to fix

it because you haven't identified the

core problem and fixed it you need to

change the diet to fix that dietary

problem then the disease goes away and

now we have data on intermittent fasting

for example and also uh low carbohydrate

diets Dr David win published his data in

the in the UK on reversing type 2

diabetes with uh reducing carbohydrates

which is showing that you can reduce

about 50% of the people and put them

into a completely drug-free remission

State like basically cure 50% of those

type two diabetics who are at risk of

cancer at risk of heart disease at risk

of Strokes at risk of blindness at risk

of kidney disease nerve damage

infections all these people you can fix

just by changing their diet either

cutting down the carbohydrates or using

intermittent fasting and it's free and

anybody can do it I'm not talking about

a drug that costs thousands of dollars

I'm not talking about a surgery which is

only available to the the the

1% I'm talking about a treatment which

is intermittent fasting which is

available to everybody in the entire

world for free and yet has the power to

completely reverse their disease and

make them so much healthier so the

question is why don't we do

it I couldn't answer that question for

you I try to do my part to tell people

but you know did you know I was going to

ask you that question h no I was gonna

ask you why don't we do

it no what systems incentives money I

think it is I think

it's you know the real reason is I think

that people are slow to catch new ideas

like when people hear about new ideas

and I'm talking about academic doctors

and so on there's an intrinsic

resistance to change so I started

talking about intermittent fasting say

2016 when the Obesity code was published

I talked about it about reversing type 2

diabetes around the same time um and

uh it's just they're just very slow to

say hey this makes a lot of sense

because for them they've invested so

much in this calories in calories out

model they've built their entire careers

on saying that it's it's your fault that

you're fat right it's it's the foods

that you ate it's the calories that you

ate instead of trying to get to a deeper

understanding so people are very

reluctant to change in fact I mean it's

been 10 years and you see the public the

interest in intermittent fasting has

skyrocketed and yet most doctors still

won't prescribe it they won't talk about

it they know nothing about it there's

how much teaching do doctors get about

intermittent fasting and why it might be

helpful probably

zero like why we have this amazing tool

and people you know doctors call it a

fad right it's a fad diet well it's been

around for 2,000 plus years that's a

long long long fad right it's it's

proven effective if you don't eat you're

going to lose weight

what's simpler than that if you don't

eat you're going to use up your blood

glucose your diabetes will get better

what's wrong with that it's not hard to

understand the diabetes code I've got

the diabetes Journal here in front of me

and put simply it talks about step one

being to put less sugar in and step two

being burn the sugar off yeah and and

step one which relates to putting more

sugar in is all about um low

carbohydrate diets right cutting down

the carbohydrates uh yeah that's that's

one effective way of cutting down the

type 2 diabetes in fact the American

Diabetes Association and their sort of

um nutritional journals they talk about

it uh having the most scientific

evidence of any diet there's no diet

with more evidence for reversing type 2

diabetes than cutting down the

carbohydrates and then step two about

burning the sugar off and that's where

fasting comes into the picture yeah I

mean if you think about it there's

there's it's it's not that hard to

understand everybody can understand it

you don't eat you're going to lose

weight right I mean it's it's such a

simple powerful tool but it it threatens

the whole apple cart all these doctors

all these professors which have built

their entire reputations all these uh

systems that are in place person TR yeah

personal trainers work on a different

level because they talk about more

exercise umies calories out I think when

we talk about calories on this show some

times I think the people that get quite

offended tend to be um personal trainers

because I think they would say they've

got case studies of telling one of their

clients to

monitor their calories and they saw a

reduction in weight so they for them

that means it works there's calories in

calories out model um it again it it is

that but it's a simplistic understanding

that's that's that's my whole point it's

sort of like if AR to say to you why did

the Titanic crash right and most people

would say hidden Iceberg well that's

very simplistic that's not the right

answer the right answer is it was going

too fast right if you think the right

answer to why did the tanic crashes

because it HD an iceberg you'd say the

solution is to hit less icebergs which

is the same as eat less calories or

drink less alcohol that's a very

superficial understanding you have to

get to the deeper level which is say why

did the Titanic hit that Iceberg it was

going too fast and there was all these

icebergs and it was going too fast for

where it was so then you say it needs to

slow down now you've identified that

deeper understanding same as with

calories you can say eat less calories

and for some people work but for some

people it's like why are you eating so

many calories is it because you're

hungry why are you hungry is it because

all those calories that you're eating

are going immediately into storage

you're eating white bread and jam and

sugar and all of going directly into

storage which is leaving you hungry

which is making you eat too many

calories so in the end yes you are

eating more calories but that's the sort

of first order thinking and not the

second order thinking that we need to be

doing and that's what the OIC and so on

starts to address is the hunger issue

and this is really what all your work

addresses and it's really the first time

I've heard someone talk to me about

obesity and weight gain through the lens

of hormones never really I've never

heard that before and really reading

through your work was really

Illuminating because it allowed me to

change my frame and it's as you say when

we're just focusing on the surface it's

very easy to fail because we need to

understand the first principles of

what's going on underneath the surface

for that long-term success to stand a

chance of occurring and I think everyone

listening to this who's struggled with

weight or obesity or whatever else

um can relate to this idea that

something's not working in you know if

there was any diet that work there

wouldn't be a thousand of them yeah and

I think the other thing is to understand

that it's not the personal failing that

we make it out to be which is I think

extremely unfair because obviously

there's something within the system

within the food environment within the

system of how we're framing it which is

making a lot of people overweight but

it's not because they don't have

willpower or because they're weak or

these other number of reasons that we

stigmatize obesity because we look at it

from that calories in calories out

framework right we say you're eating too

many calories you must be weak as

opposed to you're eating too many

calories what why is it that you're

eating too many calories why are you

hungry all the time in a word then if

you had to describe what you think about

this idea of calories in calories out

what is that word I would say that it's

shallow it's

correct if you don't think about it too

hard anybody who focuses in on

thermodynamics and calories hasn't

really thought about the problem enough

that's what I think so in the end it is

correct just like alcohol in alcohol out

you know hitting the iceberg yes it did

hit an iceberg that's why it but it was

going too fast right or alcohol in yes

if you drink less alcohol you'll cure

your alcoholism but you won't cure the

PTSD that caused you you to drink

correct but not helpful exactly that's

exactly right it's it's it's it is

correct but it's sort of not getting to

that root deeper cause that we need to

in order to help people and that's

causing us to blame them so what we're

doing which I think is very unfair is

blaming the victim like do you think

this person who's trying to lose 50 lbs

needs you to tell them that need need to

lose 50 lbs absolutely not that's only

going to be the 10,000th time they've

heard it it's interesting because one of

our guests talked about the role of

compassion and kindness in weight loss

and now through the lens of

understanding cortisol now I can

understand how kindness and gratitude

and being happy yeah you know for lack

of a better word can help us lose weight

and when we're not happy when we're

resentful when we're low in gratitude um

when we're bitter yeah we're more likely

to gain weight and and and other things

help too because if you think about

things like a sense of community it's

very important lowest cortisol levels

lowest cortisol is a way for you to

relieve stress right talking to other

people we did that we did of course

limit that during covid and of course we

saw a lot of problems but one of them

was lonel and all these sort of things

but again I always think about um you

know

people you know the way they are so if

you look at a lot of religions for

example it's like oh they were so far

ahead of us what did they do they

brought people together every week oh

you're building a sense of community

fasting oh they all got together and

fasted they all shared they're lowering

their cortisol they're lowering their

insulin levels they're staying healthy

and and we in our big mcmansions right

we we we eat the the ice cream for

dinner and we live alone in this giant

house and we wonder why we're not as as

as happy as you know our grandparents or

our parents before them because they

understood the power of some of these

things that we're trying to get back to

like the the weirdest thing is that I'm

not trying to tell people something

that's weird and unusual and you never

thought about this before I'm trying to

tell them about something that everybody

in human history history has been

exposed to which is intermittent fasting

that's been a part of our human history

whether it's through religion or whether

it's through inadvertent whatever or

whether it's through his cleansing and

purifications and all this sort of stuff

people have exposed it even in the

English language breakfast break your

fast you need to feed then you need to

fast then you need to break your fast so

I'm not telling people anything

different Jason thank you so much we um

feel like we could talk for hours

because I'm so there's so

many sort of I was thinking about it

like spiderwebs but there's so many

little branches we could go off on as it

relates to hormones and the impact of

hormones on the human body you have this

other book as well called the PCOS plan

um preventing and reversing polycystic

ovary syndrome which is a you know a

whole another conversation for another

time but these books are so wonderful

because they provide a new lens on an

old conversation and a conversation

that's lacked the depth that's required

to make any significant progress on

these subjects as we've seen obesity

levels and other issues with weight have

gone in the wrong direction for the last

couple of decades and I think it's a

more systemic understanding of these

issues that will give us any chance of

reversing it and that's exactly what

your work does um everyone knows where

to find you Dr Jason Fang will link all

of your work in the description below we

have a closing tradition on this podcast

where the last last guest leaves a

question for the next guest without

knowing who they're leaving it for and

the question that's been left for you

is what is your greatest gift to the

world I think if if if you know I

suppose it's sounds very arrogant um but

I really hope that my my work helps

people sort

of reverse the type two diabetes because

that is really sort of one of the most

close things that I deal with because I

deal with it professionally sort of

every day um and helps break the stigma

of not just the stigma but the

understanding like like you know

stimulates more thinking about weight

loss how to lose weight more than

calories in calories out I mean it's so

sort of Pie in the Sky because you know

it's there's a whole you know worldwide

sort of instit tionalized fossilized

almost you know thinking around calories

it's all about calories sort of thing so

to for me to upset it seems

ridiculous but I hope that I can at

least start that conversation to say hey

let's think about these things let's

think about the hormones let's think

about reversing type two diabetes let's

think about all getting together and

helping each other to become so much

healthier not through drugs and not

through more surgery and not with you

know weird and new things that you've

never heard of but with the tried and

the true sort of oldest thinking that

has been there right it's it's to me

it's I I sometimes think about this

crazy I like why do I think I can even

do that right it's just ridiculous it's

so much huis but you know I I can only

try right because I I see in my own

practi practice how much good it's done

for some people so it drives me to say I

need to bring it to more people I need

to to to explain it to them if they want

to be helped they will be helped but if

they don't want to understand it's okay

I'm not trying to force myself to do

anything but you know that's what I hope

my greatest gift will be um but at the

same time I sort of think that's just

you know you're crazy if you can think

you can do that but well it's The Crazy

Ones that change the world Dr Jason um

it's the crazy ones that changed the

world and even with you know your

conversation around intermittent fasting

has changed many many lives that you'll

never get to meet I imagine many many

millions many many millions because it's

even brought the conversation to this

show before you entered the room many

many months and months and months and

almost a year ago people started talking

on the show about intermittent fasting

and that's in many respects due to the

work that you've done to further that

conversation and now your work continues

to highlight the fact that type 2

diabetes is a reversible disease in many

cases and I think again that's going to

save you know tens of millions if not

hundreds of millions of lives over the

coming coming decades and years so thank

you for what you do Dr Jason um it's an

huge honor to get to sit with you today

and I feel wiser and more enlightened

and like someone has turned the lights

on in a certain part of my knowledge

because of this conversation so I thank

you for that tremendously thank you so

much it's been

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