Fantasy Then and Now | FT. George R.R. Martin, Robin Hobb, Rebecca Roanhorse and Ryan Cahill

Well, hello World Con. That was that was quite an intro, wasn't it? We had a little mini rave courtesy of John Scousey. And we are ready to talk Epic

Scousey. And we are ready to talk Epic Fantasy. Now, I'm very, very excited

Fantasy. Now, I'm very, very excited that you're all here for our first episode, live episode of SFhatics podcast, which we've had the pleasure of collaborating on with Dragon Steel

Books. And these are my co-hosts. I'll

Books. And these are my co-hosts. I'll

let MJ introduce herself first, and then I'll go last.

Ladies first.

Ladies first. I love it. Hi, I'm MJ [ __ ] I am author of Among Thieves and co-host of SFFF addicts.

And Greta.

Hi, I'm Greta Kelly. I'm the author of the Warrior Witch Duology as well as the Queen of Days. And just as a note before I forget to tell you all, all of our books are available downstairs at the B booknook.

Just chill right at the beginning.

Chill right at the beginning. Get it

over with. Rip the band-aid off.

Uh and I'm Adrian M. Gibson. I am the author of Mushroom Blues and the creator and co-host of SFFhatics podcast. And

with us we have a fantastic panel. Uh

amazing group of authors. We don't

really need to introduce them, but we will anyways to discuss the shifting landscape of epic fantasy. And so we'll just go from the left side all the way to the right side, starting with Brandon Sanderson.

Hey, I'm Brandon Sanderson.

[Applause] I want that same clap.

And now the sexiest man in Ireland.

Have you seen Colin Farrell? Oh, second

sexiest man in Ireland.

Have you seen most of them?

Yeah, my name's Ryan Cahill, but if you call me Cahill, that's absolutely fine.

I know sometimes it's not that simple. I

thought it was an easy surname.

Apparently, it's not. I'm the author of The Bound and the Broken, and um yeah, I kind I'm excited to be here.

[Music] Hi, I'm Rebecca Ronhorse. I am the author of the Between Earth and Sky series, which is up for Hugo best series. Watch out, Brandon.

series. Watch out, Brandon.

There's a reason I'm sitting in between them.

Hello, I'm Robin Hob. I also write as Megan Landholm. I'm best known for the

Megan Landholm. I'm best known for the Farsier trilogy.

Hi. Uh, I'm George R. Martin and um um let's see. I've written uh some stuff uh a song of ice and fire. I know I it's

14 years late. Please uh you know don't I'm working on it and uh but I took uh uh this uh weekend off to be here. So uh

thank you.

I've written I've written a lot of other stuff too by the way. So people tend to forget about that which annoys me. But

uh the pear-shaped man.

The pear-shaped man. Yes. Yeah. That's

not autobiographical too much.

So, so you look at me right in the eyes, George.

I'm very grateful for all five of you being here. I'm so happy to be doing

being here. I'm so happy to be doing this with my two best friends. The fact

that we could be here in person for the first time together. Uh, I've been with each of them separately on different occasions, but this is the first time SFFAX is in one room together and we get to do it in front of all of you and I'm so grateful for every single person

that's in this room. Thank you all so much for being here. First of all, Well, uh, we're going to be talking about epic fantasy, which is a genre that I think clearly, uh, speaks to a

lot of people and is very important to a lot of people. You know, epic fantasy is something that for me personally has been in my heart since I was a kid and the stories that I grew up with and the stories that I continue to read. And now

that I get to be in the writing community and be both a reader and a writer, to make friends with incredible epic fantasy authors and know that this genre is still alive and beautiful and

thriving in 2025. So, I'm going to toss this to to all of our panelists. I'll

I'll give it to you to you first, Ryan.

Um, stop looking like I want to ask you questions dude.

When you started reading epic fantasy, what did the genre look like? What were

some of the genre conventions that dominated the landscape at that time?

Yeah, it was really interesting because I was looking at it recently and like Wheel of Time was absolutely massive for me. Like my my friends and my really

me. Like my my friends and my really close friends and family read Wheel of Time all the time. all the time. And it

it was interesting because considering who's on the panel that when you were switching up that, you know, I was 17 when Brandon first wrote the the first his first iteration of Wheel of Time.

And watching that change was was massive, but also Red Wall was huge at the time for me as well. And like I grew up, you know, with my my dad refused to

read kids stories to us, so he just read Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. And I

didn't understand what he was saying, but he had a good time.

It obviously bled through. But um yeah, like I don't know.

Epic Fantasy was just really structured pros, beautiful, flowy, maybe a bit less, I suppose, character, not character focused, but a lot more

archetypal characters at that time. And

I looking through like with with Aragorn and Gandalf and stuff like that. And

there's there's been quite a big shift now in the way things are written and um there's a few specific authors I feel are responsible for that kind of shift. But yeah, was there a second part

shift. But yeah, was there a second part of the question?

No, that was beautiful. Thank you.

Thank you.

This is such a nice panel.

Robin, we'll toss it over to you in terms of uh what was epic fantasy like when you first encountered it?

Um my first encounter was there wasn't much of it that I could find. I mean,

after The Lord of the Rings, I went digging and, uh, came up with Peter Espie, uh, The Last Unicorn, but there was really kind of, uh, for me anyway,

living in Alaska, there was a darth after The Lord of the Rings, after I found The Last Unicorn, I'm looking around. And so I just plunged back into

around. And so I just plunged back into the the earlier stuff, Tarzan and uh uh all all of all of the really good golden

age stuff that I just couldn't find any really epic fantasy. So I just plunged into what I could find and read.

And now here you are. It's a long journey and it's beautiful to see.

George, what about you?

Well, uh what did the genre look like when I started? Now I'm um a lot older than all these other people. Uh there

was no genre when I started. There was

fantasy. Certainly fantasy goes back way way back gig Gilgamesh and uh the the Greek myths and the Roman myth. All of

those things were there. And in later generations there were occasional fantasy uh stories uh plays. Shakespeare

wrote fantasy with, you know, elves and Midsummer's Night's Dream and uh Three Witches in the Woods and stuff like that. But what we think of as epic

that. But what we think of as epic fantasy did not did not exist. There was

a generally recognized genre called sword and sorcery, which was largely dominated by the ghost of Roberty E.

Howard. And that was some of the uh first stuff I read. I read a uh I was reading a lot of science fiction then. I

was like in in junior high and I I read um some anthologies and there was one edited by El Sprag the camp called Swords and Sorcery that I bought and

that in there was the first Conan story I ever read and the first story by Faford and the and and the Grey Mouser by Fritz Liber that I read and the first

gym of jewelry. Uh but those were all definitely sword and sorcery. Um, and

then along came Tolken, and he Lord of the Ring and The Hobbit were were gigantic, and not at first, I mean,

they sold well, but he was not the bestselling guy of all time. Um, I'd

been reading Roberty Howard and and Fzines, and they were talking about this Tolken guy out of England. He was

supposed to be pretty good. So I I uh I picked up a pirated edition. It was his first American editions were pirated.

They found a they found a flaw in his copyright material. Ace Books did and

copyright material. Ace Books did and they published his uh paperback editions without any payment to him or any contract. Um but that's the one I

contract. Um but that's the one I bought. I you know off the hands. Uh,

bought. I you know off the hands. Uh,

and I read it and I remember kind of being puzzled at first cuz I'd been reading a lot of Conan and

the giant snakes and the scantily clad women and Conan and his mighty fuse and uh I I could find Lord of the Rings

begins with a treatise on pipeweed and then there's a birthday party and there's no there's no birthday party Uh

there's no uh scantily clad women which I missed in junior high. Um

but you you read it and it gets you know you encountered the black writers and you know I if you start reading Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring you know cold you get into it like a 100

pages and you think farmer maggot is the big villain and it's all about stealing mushrooms but no it wasn't. It gets

beyond that. And by the time the black writers show up and you get to Brie and then you get to Rivendell, uh you're reading something different. And I was

it had its hooks in me. And it continued to have its hooks for me. And then

uh then it ends and where's the next book? Where's the [ __ ] next book?

book? Where's the [ __ ] next book?

Doesn't he realize that he has to do another book?

Uh fortunately he did he did eventually and that was even better. But um

it the the impression that it had on me it it's hard to really summarize it. I

mean it I'd been a voracious reader. I'd

read a lot of uh you know the books you read for school and then I'd read a lot of science fiction uh and some of the fantasists that were around.

This one, it grabbed hold of me and it would not let go. I I think about the period I was

let go. I I think about the period I was reading it and I was, as I said, in junior high. I don't remember half the

junior high. I don't remember half the teachers I had in junior high. I don't

remember what I was doing. I was reading that book. That's my memory of it. It

that book. That's my memory of it. It

was like I lived it. And the influence it had on me was gigantic.

But Tolken himself was what happened around that time. Tolken

in America um was considered by American publishing to be a a freak of nature, a one-time phenomenon. Here's this weird book about

phenomenon. Here's this weird book about little guys with hair on their feet and uh and the ring. And nobody is ever going to do the same thing. Nobody is

ever going to work in that genre. And

there have always been in American publishing books or writers like that that you know you they come out they have a giant success and then nobody can

duplicate it. I mean Jonathan Livingston

duplicate it. I mean Jonathan Livingston Seagull mega hit. Uh where are the other seagull books? No, nobody wrote them or

seagull books? No, nobody wrote them or if they did they didn't get them published. Um

published. Um but it was after some time that uh an editor at uh Valentine Books uh Lester

Del Rey oldtime science fiction uh writer fan editor decided maybe Tolkien could be could launch a genre and he he

published uh a couple books. Uh, I think Terry Terry Brooks was one of them. Very

talking and imitative. And then, uh, also the Thomas Covenant books by Steven Donaldson, which uh, Steve lived in New

Mexico uh, when I first moved there. He

those books. He wrote those three books and sent them out and nobody would touch him. Nobody would touch them. He got

him. Nobody would touch them. He got

more than 40 rejections to finished books. And then he just started over

books. And then he just started over again in sending them out. And finally,

Del Rey bought it and published it. A a

book about an imaginary land that the whole thing might be a dream. The hero

is a leper who raped someone in the early chapters. Who the hell is going to

early chapters. Who the hell is going to read this book? How could this book be a success? But it was it was a huge

success? But it was it was a huge success. And then there was a second

success. And then there was a second Thomas Cognant. And then suddenly

Thomas Cognant. And then suddenly everybody was looking at Valentine books and saying, "Hey, let's do something like that." And that's where the genre

like that." And that's where the genre really got its route and it's still going strong and people are still uh you know

publishing these books including myself um eventually. Uh so

um eventually. Uh so but that's beautiful. It just takes one editor to buy in and now you have a whole crowd full of people.

From scantily clad women to hairy feet.

It all worked out for the better.

Scantily clad feet.

Scant feet. There we

are.

Rebecca, what about you, my dear?

Uh, so I am the outlier. I have actually never read Tolken, so don't hate me, but feel free to hate me.

Everyone has their own path. Don't poo.

You're the hipster on the panel. Oh yes.

But uh I did read Dune and I think you know arguably Dune is epic fantasy although maybe it's science fantasy space fantasy. Uh and I think that was

space fantasy. Uh and I think that was really my seinal work uh that really opened me up. I think I was very much like George when I was in junior high. I

don't remember what I was doing but I think 8th grade I read Dune and my mind just went wow look what you can do.

Especially the Frimman although I really I'm house of trades all the way. Uh but

um yeah, and then I think also things like the Dragon Lance Chronicles, which is a little, you know, maybe early YA if you think about it too hard. Uh but I

was there for Racelyn. I was there for the characters. I love him with my whole

the characters. I love him with my whole heart. Uh and then I really moved into

heart. Uh and then I really moved into urban fantasy. So, I just want to shout

urban fantasy. So, I just want to shout that out a little bit because I feel like urban fantasy was a a new genre in the '9s that took some of the elements that were missing from epic fantasy,

like female- centered stories, like romance, like touches of horror, and brought them into fantasy. And I've

certainly taken those elements and brought them into my epic fantasy as well.

Yeah. And I love your stories. And

honestly, as someone who writes urban fantasy, I'm like, "Yeah, girl, let's do this."

this." Brandon.

Yeah. Um, I liked get hearing the kind of history lesson from George because that's actually something I think about a lot is the history of fantasy. And

when I started reading, I was right in that um the era he talked about. Um, I'm

in the mid 80s when I started picking up fantasy. And so it's all of the books

fantasy. And so it's all of the books that I kind of look at as um like there's there's I'm the third generation from Tolken, right? There's Tolken's

writing and then there's all the people who are responding to Tolken, right? And

so that's your you've got your YA side with uh you could say sort of schnar we didn't have ya back then um but you can kind of say it's like hey let's do something like Tolken but we'll target a little younger um and then you've got

like your Thomas Covenant which is one of the early ones I read also which is very kind of um let's deconstruct Tolken and let's look at it from a very kind of

literary critical eye um and things like that. Um, actually the first fantasies I

that. Um, actually the first fantasies I picked up were none of those. I picked

up my first three were Dragon Spain by Barbara Hamley. Um, and then um Melanie

Barbara Hamley. Um, and then um Melanie Ron's Dragon Prince and then Ann McCaffrey uh Dragon Riders of Pern. And

this is because I found Dragon Spain and the next two in the card catalog um by title. I'm just like you could you these

title. I'm just like you could you these old things, kids. They were these like cabinets. They were chiseled out of

cabinets. They were chiseled out of stone. Uh, and you could go flip through

stone. Uh, and you could go flip through the cards because we didn't have computers and just look by title. And

so, um, I'm just like, well, I love this book. Um, what else is near it in the

book. Um, what else is near it in the card catalog? And so,

card catalog? And so, what else says dragon?

Yeah. What else has says dragon? And I

those were the the next ones in my school um thing. But I really got into fantasy at the time. And what it looked like was this kind of this very we were right at the um the age of Tad Williams

and Robert Jordan um kind of releasing these very Tolken adjacent epics. Um and

that's I read a ton of that and then when I became a writer when I said I want to do this is when actually uh Robin's uh series really broke out and George's series really broke out which

are kind of the I I would say the response against Tolken. Um sort of Yes.

Oh, come on, Robin. A first person story um about an assassin um and things like this. Like it's it's like what else can

this. Like it's it's like what else can fantasy do? Not a response against

fantasy do? Not a response against Tolken saying Tolken is bad, but a let's get out of Tolken's shadow, right?

Like I feel like the late '9s and that's when I was starting to write is the let's get out of Tolken shadow. Let's

write new uh um and uh different sort of things. And that's when I was breaking

things. And that's when I was breaking in.

Yeah. You can throw the response to this. Yeah,

this. Yeah, these allegations that Brandon has leap upon you.

I meant it as a compliment. I think that stepping out of Tolken shadow at that point was a really important thing for the genre cuz the people in the 80s did wonderful things, really interesting

things, but I felt like we needed to grow as a genre.

Well, I mean, before she was Robin, she was Megan Lindholm and wrote a number of books that were not token-esque epic

fantasy that were would you call them urban fantasy or or what?

I say they were more like swords and sorcery and uh but they were good books.

My first attempt at urban fantasy was Wizard of the Pigeon set here in Seattle. So,

Seattle. So, well, and I have read that. It's a very good book.

Yeah. So, why did was it the market that uh caused you to uh put Megan on the shelf and and become Robin? Or was it an editor's note? Or was it

editor's note? Or was it a very clever agent?

Very clever agent. Oh, their best kind.

Yeah.

Ralph.

Amazing. Well, this kind of transitions really naturally into a question that we were going to ask a little later on. Um

it's actually a question from one of our patrons on Patreon, David Hopkins. um uh

regarding a dairy project quote uh about JR Tolken being kind of a mountain appearing in the landscape right of epic fantasy uh what are your thoughts on the

monolith of Tolken uh as we're kind of discussing this a little bit do those words still ring true uh Rebecca I can be brief because as I said I did not read Tolken but I did read George uh and

that a song of ice and fire was of course seinal I think for me in the way that maybe Tolken was for other people uh and so I've always felt that my work is in conversation with George's work. I

don't think it's uh in any way uh like a trying to step out of the shadow, but I think George actually reading your work I felt gave me permission to write morally gray characters uh to write

complicated things that ne not necessarily relied on magic. Uh but you could bring in you know politics and social issues and all the sort of exciting things that I saw you know that

you were doing and and of course Dune is doing too. Uh, and so yeah, that's

doing too. Uh, and so yeah, that's that's my Tolken answer. Who's Tolken?

I I love that.

We We're going to we're going to change the name of this panel.

Just stick the knife in deeper and deeper.

Well, Ryan, go for it, buddy.

Yeah. No, I think it in writing today as well, I think it's extremely hard to escape comparison at all times. And

whether it's a shadow that someone's trying to escape from or not, I think it's become a reference point. And I do feel like you we're talking about the shifting landscape of epic fantasy and I do feel like those reference points

there's new ones appearing. So you know Song of Ice and Fire is a reference point now for a lot of people like there's a lot of people trying to the same way you had people trying to emulate specific aspects of of Token's work. you know, people trying to emulate

work. you know, people trying to emulate specific aspects of of a song of ice and fire or with um with Robert Jordan's work and like an McAffrey like dragon riders apparent was my first major

introduction into dragons and so many people think because you know I'm a young or I was young because I'm a guy that has to have been Pini when I was younger. It was it was

Amarfrey it was Naomi Novik and like those reference points are changing but there's always token in the background.

um at least I'm seeing it in a lot of modern work and even whether it's because you're emulating it in some small way or you're trying so hard not to emulate it, it just seems to be there. I don't think the shadow is there

there. I don't think the shadow is there anymore. I think that's the difference.

anymore. I think that's the difference.

I think at the minute it's it's just that reference point. It's the painting that people keep looking back at when they look at your painting.

Yeah. It's like the the mountain is still in view, but you're not in it shadow anymore.

The mountain's still in view, but you know, the sun got higher.

Yeah. Arabore is still standing.

Robin, what do you think about this?

Well, for me, the thing about The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, too, was that here was a world that had a history, it had languages, it had

traditions, and it took itself very seriously. These were not disposable

seriously. These were not disposable characters. Um, I'd read a lot of of

characters. Um, I'd read a lot of of Fafford and the Grey Mouser and Conan and Tarzan and all of the bit part characters came and went and these were

books that had a whole world and a foundation. And that's what I wanted to

foundation. And that's what I wanted to find again. And that was really hard to

find again. And that was really hard to find.

Trying to find another real world.

There's something tangible about it.

Something that's like our world.

Something there's so much depth to it.

And it's not it's not the iceberg. it's

actual depth which is really rare.

Brandon, yeah, it's interesting to talk about because um on one hand um we shouldn't discount the fact that from the beginning even you know a when Tolken

was becoming the monolith he was people were writing things that were very um not like Tolken. I mean, Morcock has been here all along, right? Um, writing,

uh, great, it's sword and sorcery inspired, but it's epic in scope. Um,

and you've got, you know, so many great writers through the 70s and 80s and 90s, um, who were not, you know, um, writing the Tolkenesque, but what was selling

big numbers was the Tolkenesque. And

it's that's the shadow I think that we have, uh, we have escaped. Um, and

that's good. So when I was uh when I was in college um I was very kind of anti- Tolken uh in this like young kid chip on his shoulder um sort of way. Not I mean

I love Tolken but I was anti this like I had I had gotten bored with these books and I hadn't been able to stretch to find uh the books that were that were a

step further. Uh and I was like why are

step further. Uh and I was like why are we so much trapped in toolken? wrote

like for my school magazine uh like essays of you know like we need to we need to modernize fantasy and then about uh 10 years after that I'm like why would I even think that just let people

read what they want to read and if people like orcs and elves and and dwarfs let them read that like there's you know um I and so what I'm glad with

is that the genre as a whole meaning specifically what the editors are are buying and what people are reading is

there's so much more variety. Um, and we do have to, I really think, credit in part George for that. Um, like a lot of readers, I picked up um, you know, Game of Thrones and I read the first one and

I'm like, "Oh, I know who the hero is."

Uh, right. It's this kid Bran. I've read

this book before. And then he gets thrown out a window and I'm like, "Oh, spoilers. Spoilers.

"Oh, spoilers. Spoilers.

You threw me for a loop. But I think I know George. I know who the hero is now.

know George. I know who the hero is now.

It's Eddard. It's actually And that was my exact uh my exact line of thought.

Um, and so like that era of fantasy I think was good for just shaking us all out of uh, you know, the the buying public and there were writers writing

all sorts of things, but the buying public and that's when I feel like we really saw things and the other big disruption disruptive mop was um, the YA followed by urban fantasy shakeups. Um,

and if you know anything about the history of epic fantasy, uh, I'll I'll stop after this, but the late, uh, 90s, early 2000s were really hard for epic fantasy. Um, we had we had George and

fantasy. Um, we had we had George and Robin come out and sell really well, and then the editors like learned the wrong lesson. Okay, just a little quick one. I

lesson. Okay, just a little quick one. I

just a little quick. So, Robert Jordan missed the deadline and they slotted a um a Terry Goodkind book into that slot.

they already had all the money and funding for the uh for the publicity of it and they just spent that on Good Kind instead and made him a giant bestseller.

The publishers all thought we can take anything and make it an epic fantasy bestseller. And then there were like

bestseller. And then there were like four or five enormous flops. Um, and in the meantime, people were jumping over and reading um reading Interview with the Vampire and they were reading um

Harry Potter and uh really Steven Ericson is the only person during that era that really broke out and even he it was really hard because only the Brits were willing to buy and read.

Don't point at me when you say Brits.

It was over that way. It was toward the Brits beyond you took in the in the They have to go past you. Um, and so like it they were the only ones that you

know Erikson I believe Ericson is Canadian but it was she sold the UK. So

real big Darth for a while and I think the shakeup was really good though in the end but it it took till like 2005 for like me and Rothus and uh Norah

Jameson to to sell before epic fantasy I think really kind of recovered. You

know, I I said uh earlier in the history about the the key role played by Lester Del Rey of U Valentine Books publishing

um particularly uh Steven Donaldson's books and all that. But there's a there's the flip side of Lester as the influential editor which is he was a a

important writer and editor of the pulp era in science fiction and fantasy and he had very strong views on how to do it and when he started publishing these people

he tried to impose those views on them and to make the books very formulaic and some of the writers followed basically the the Delray formula.

But not all of them. I mean, even Steve Donaldson when he did the second chronicles of Thomas Covenant, um, Lester gave him notes and Steve refused

to do them. And Lester insisted that he do them. And it it grew into a huge

do them. And it it grew into a huge fight which ultimately ended with u Steve Donaldson saying, "Well, I'm pulling my books then." And of course, they were huge bestsellers. So the

people at uh the people at Valentine said, "Oh, no you're not. No, you're

not. We'll we'll Hey, Lester, you're not editing him anymore. Go away. Stop

giving him notes." And he did. Lester

continued as an editor, but he was no longer uh the editor of uh of Steven R.

Donaldson. And um and Steve was able to do things that uh Lester did not want him to do. So uh that opened things up a

little. we we weren't all um

little. we we weren't all um following in the talking footsteps as interpreted by Lester Del Rey and that

was a a period of uh you know kind of chaos and stuff like that. I will say that u although I I get credit but uh killing people and all of that stuff I

actually I was sort of imitating Tolken there too. I remember reading Lord of

there too. I remember reading Lord of the Rings and uh it was great that then Gandalf died. You can't kill Gandalf.

Gandalf died. You can't kill Gandalf.

What the [ __ ] Conan never died. Conan would fight 50 people and and he would be nailed to a cross and he would bite the heads off buzzards and

uh you know, you never knew. You picked

up a Conan book and I don't care how many people he was fighting, he would he would win. you knew he was safe and uh

would win. you knew he was safe and uh also there would be scantily clad women and giant snakes. So um

I when I wrote mine I wanted to surprise the reader and take them to places as I was surprised by Gandalf's death. Now

yes I know Gandalf came back. it was

kind of different but uh he did come back which actually I would have kept him dead but uh that's that's an issue for me and and

JRR to discuss uh down the line. I still

love Tolken and there's no doubt that his uh influence was great but as a reader um I I like books that are not familiar to

me. I like to be surprised. I like

me. I like to be surprised. I like

twists and turns. I like the character who has depth and is not what he appears to be. And uh that's that's what I look

to be. And uh that's that's what I look for in a lot of books. I don't care what the genre is, science fiction, fantasy, westerns, you know, whatever the hell it is. Surprise me. Take me to places I

is. Surprise me. Take me to places I haven't been before.

That's actually a perfect segue to our next question because we've also seen a very welcome shift in epic fantasy that is not just focused on Indo-Uropean inspired settings to books that explore

cultures and places from all over the world. So, we'd love to hear from each

world. So, we'd love to hear from each of you how you approach your world building in your stories. Uh, but maybe Rebecca, could you kick us off on this one?

I'm sorry. Ryan was talking to me and I was not like [ __ ] Cahill.

If you do that again, you're off the stage.

I have not given a timeout all week, but I will.

Just into that.

We wanted to talk about how you approach world building in your novels.

Oh, yeah. Okay. So my uh series between earth and sky is inspired by the pre-colian Americas. So think like the

pre-colian Americas. So think like the Aztecs, the Maya, uh even the ancestral pbloans of New Mexico where I'm from.

And I think for me that was really a childhood dream. You know, I grew up,

childhood dream. You know, I grew up, you know, reading all these things uh all these epic fantasies that were inspired by European cultures. And

that's fine. It's great. I love them.

But my dream was, what if we could write an epic fantasy, you know, with that sort of depth and and informed by history, but set it in the Americas

because we have these rich traditions and culture and history here. We had uh, you know, uh, societies that read the stars and built, you know, massive

cities and were so sophisticated, but it seems to all be lost, uh, sort of in history. It's not the history that we

history. It's not the history that we teach in our uh, classrooms. And so I wanted to write it in a fantasy setting.

That was really my dream. And so that's what inspired Between Earth and Sky.

Then if you read it, hopefully you realize it is fantasy because there's like magic and crows and things like that. Um but then maybe you're a little

that. Um but then maybe you're a little bit inspired to go find out the history too of these actual peoples uh and what they accomplished and you know their trade routes and their sophisticated

sailing methods and things like that. So

I truly really tried to bring a lot of that in. Yeah. And I just want to shout

that in. Yeah. And I just want to shout out because I do have the mic, uh, some authors that are doing the same sort of work, not particularly in the pre-Colombian Americas, but in Asian

cultures and in African cultures because those books are out there. Like, I'm all for letting people read what they want to read, but sometimes I don't know if people know what they want to read because they haven't seen it yet. Uh,

and the truth is that like bipok authors, authors of color, queer authors, we just don't get a lot of the same marketing and publicity as other

authors do. And that's just the way it

authors do. And that's just the way it sort of works. But it really is going to come down to fans and who's reading the books. And the more people that read

books. And the more people that read them, the more we get to write them. So,

I'm just want to shout out uh The Poppy War by RF Kang if you haven't read that.

She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker Chan, one of my favorites.

Yay.

Uh, The Jasmine Throne by Tasha Shuri, which is also up for best Hugo series, and Rage of Dragons by Even Winter.

Can I also shout out um Fondly The Green Bone Saga, which is the best urban epic fantasy that I've ever read. Yeah.

ever read. Yeah.

Brandon, what are your thoughts on this and your approaches to world building?

Um I mean it is um what's unfortunate and uh George talked about the the Del Rey era is that um it feels like if we

kind of dig deep what we want to do is what Tolken did deeply not on the surface and I do think there is a danger of mistaking like we

um Robin talked about this idea of you know this depth of culture this depth of world building this depth depth of society and all of these things mistaking the fact that that certain

tropes exist for the deep work that Tolken did. Um, and we have this danger,

Tolken did. Um, and we have this danger, and this happened during this era where, you know, Lester Del Rey was famous for, I believe, you could tell me if I'm wrong, George, for saying has to be a male protagonist because Lord of the

Rings had had a male protagonist. This

has to have a male protagonist. Um, and

and saying, you know, in some of these things, which is not, you know, that's that's incidental to what made Tolken successful. Um,

successful. Um, that was one of the issues between Steve Donaldson and and Lester Del Rey. uh

Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.

Covenant is not the protagonist. He's a

side character. The the protagonist is a is a woman. Um what was her name? Uh

I don't remember. But uh and Lester did not like that. And like and so because of that certain models that were both conflating the skillful things Tolken

did and the tropes that he used the the danger is saying well we have to keep to the tropes rather than the the the deeper digging. And so uh I think this

deeper digging. And so uh I think this has been wonderful for fantasy. Um um

one of my big uh arguments has been and I think that lull in the late '9s happened because people come like George said they come to books um for something unfamiliar. They want the familiar and

unfamiliar. They want the familiar and the strange. It's that mix of I want

the strange. It's that mix of I want something that made me feel like what I love but I don't want to read the same thing. And I think that's because in

thing. And I think that's because in fantasy the sense of exploration and learning something new and going a new place that sense of wonder is so important to us. And if all the books go

the same places, what's going to happen is you're going to lose that sense of wonder and you're going to feel like you outgrew fantasy when fantasy could be so much more. And so for the whole genre,

much more. And so for the whole genre, if we want to keep bringing in new readers and keeping them here, we actually need a lot more to explore than the same stories. Fantasy almost lost me

because I was bored with fantasy. Um,

right. And so um anyway just it's an enormous positive and I I think people don't quite understand how important that is to our genre that sense of wonder and

exploration and so you know bouncing between a Sanderson book and a Fondly book so that you are still you are getting this sense of exploration of different places I think is good for

everyone. So if you're getting a little

everyone. So if you're getting a little bored of the fantasy you probably will still love fantasy just stretch a little further is what I would say. Mix it up a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah.

Robin.

Robin, I'm sitting here thinking about, you know, where we're kind of moving with epic fantasy with grim dark particularly with writers like Mark Lawrence and Joe

Abercrombie and you were just talking about unusual settings and I'm thinking about um the wonderful library uh the book that wouldn't burn and that's an

incredible setting unlike anything I've ever seen before. And so now in the back of my mind I'm asking all these questions. Is this a European inspired

questions. Is this a European inspired setting? Because we have books on

setting? Because we have books on shelves. Is this it it's um as you say

shelves. Is this it it's um as you say it's uh fantasy. You can follow it in any direction you want to go. And uh

it's if you've got an idea for a book or a story, you don't have to feel limited by what's been done before.

Can I add something here real quick?

Another really important aspect of this that we're seeing lately that I really like is I feel like a lot of and again nothing against these writers fantastic books during um the the 80s and '9s but

it wasn't just um you know European it was like generic European it was like it was like this this idealized uh sort of

thing um we see now if you will take something like uprooted by Naam Novik right and uh where she says I'm going to go specific specifically to my Polish

roots and be inspired by um not just generic um kind of Englandesque, but instead, you know, something more like you would you I mean, I know these aren't fancy, but the Saxon tales or things like this

where it's like, no, I'm I'm going to I'm going to look into the actual uh history and and actual instead of, you know, blending it all into one, um build something like uprooted, which is

fantastic, and I like seeing that a lot, too. So even the kind of European

too. So even the kind of European fantasies there there is opportunity to go deeper than whatever you would call generic fantasy land.

Yeah. vanilla fantasy and within all of these different all of these different countries and cultures and and basically all have beautiful folklore and incredible heritage, you know, and the

fact that someone in Eastern Europe can write a European story but with a very deeply rooted um traditional history and

and uh reflection upon that country's language and cuisine and all these different aspects that make it feel really unique even though it technically is European fantasy. Yeah.

And this is what Tolken did right on the deeper level.

Yeah. Exactly. Ryan.

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like one of the big shifts that I saw was a shift between a lot of the older stories that I read having an almost Amnissian style

narrative. And when we move to the more

narrative. And when we move to the more not modern, but the third limited style, everything becomes a little bit more intense. It becomes a little bit more

intense. It becomes a little bit more real and it adds texture to the world.

And there's there's two pieces of advice that I I listened to when I started writing and one was by Mary Robinette Kowal and one was by my proof reader who

became a copy editor uh TA who's TL Greylock and Tea's advice was I I was writing okay and you're trying very hard to make sure that the world has texture

to it and has new things in it and she's like hey look you you have men and women here doing everything they're in the army they're doing this is one thing I've noticed in a lot of the books that I read is that's the case until

something generic happens. Everyone who

dies in the army is a man. And she's

like, "Challenge your default."

And that sentence kind of stuck with me like through everything that I was writing was I was always defaulting to everything that I knew and and everything that I am. And that kind of started to add a lot of texture to my

world when I was doing it because I realized, you know, that's what I was falling back on every time. And there

was that. And I was listening to an episode of writing excuses and Mary Robinette explained about how you don't have to have that sense of or suspension of disbelief when

you have a Pegasus if you show how to saddle the Pegasus, right? You don't

have to teach them why the Pegasus could fly. You don't have to show anyone how a

fly. You don't have to show anyone how a Pegasus flies. Show them how you saddle

Pegasus flies. Show them how you saddle the Pegasus and all of a sudden that you have a grounding point. Um, and those things stuck with me when I started writing and I tried to worldu. I

realized with with the the third limited and with trying to add texture to the world that it wasn't just about the depth of the world building it was but it was about exploring the depth of the world building through the textures of the character. What they feel, what they

the character. What they feel, what they see, what they smell. I don't just want to show all these different foods they eat. I want to taste them. You know, I

eat. I want to taste them. You know, I don't just want to see all these creatures. I want to I want to feel

creatures. I want to I want to feel them. I want to know what it's like to

them. I want to know what it's like to be next to one. I want to know what it's like when they breathe. What does it sound like? If you're putting your ear

sound like? If you're putting your ear to the neck of a horse, you know, this isn't a horse. This is um like a a scaled wyvern style creature. How does

it feel? Is it are the scales warm? Does

it have a rumble when I don't know that sort of stuff to me I'm starting to see a lot more of?

And it gets back to that root of escaping to a world that feels real. You

know, the depth of the world when when when you can get the senses in and you put your reader in that position, they can feel the world. And I think for me, once you feel the world, you're in the world. Once you're in the world, you're

world. Once you're in the world, you're lost.

And there's been a lot more of that recently that I've seen is Yeah, that's how I That's the magic of specificity.

That's how I approach it and it's what I love reading.

George, any follow-up advice about world building that you always gear towards?

Well, I I think world building was one of the things where Tolken had the most influence. I mean, I'd read fantasies

influence. I mean, I'd read fantasies before, uh, as I mentioned, um, and some of them had efforts at world building,

but they were cursory. I mean, even, uh, Con and Roberty Howard, uh, the Hiboreian age. Take a look at the

Hiboreian age. Take a look at the Hiboreian age, and, uh, it's sort of okay, but it doesn't really hold up to five minutes thought. Um there was a

fanzene, you guys remember what fan zenes were? There was a fanzene devoted

zenes were? There was a fanzene devoted specifically to fantasy called Amra and it particularly uh was focused on on u

the u Roberty Howard stories. And I

remember reading an article in one which was u something about the uh sea trade in the Hiboreian age. And the guy went through the whole a whole uh every

country in uh the map of the Hiboreian age, Samria and Numedia and Shmp and no

that's such three stoogge um one of them and the the the country that Conan becomes king of that was Aqualonia right

they had ports and ships and all that and they traded but if you look at the rest of the countries on how map. Um,

there's pirates in one place and there's corsaires in another place and there's cannibals on a set of islands and this who was Aqualonia trading with you know

that every what else in the world was a buccaneer or a corsair or something like that. It was not really economically

that. It was not really economically soundly based.

Yeah. Who was making the food? Conan

would, you know, he he defeated various kings and dukes and things like that, but there was no history. I mean, then then I'm I'm reading Tolken and it's, "Oh, I I love this book. I don't want it

to end." Well, fortunately, I have

to end." Well, fortunately, I have another 100 pages. And then I turn the thing. No, it's a 100 pages of

thing. No, it's a 100 pages of appendices. And the story is actually

appendices. And the story is actually over. And now I I have to look at the

over. And now I I have to look at the entire history of all of the kings of Numor and what dates they ruled that and what were their policies and how many

children and wives did they had and it was kind of fascinating but uh and now I I can't think of the

how much power that had on me lingering.

It made the Tolken's world and Numor real in a way that Equalonia and Samaria never were because Howard did only did a

cursory job of his worldbuilding and and even Howard was better. I mean Lord Danseni who Tolken himself admired. I

liked Lord Danseni's books too but you read them and all said once upon a time there was a princess and uh her father was the king and then so elves came

along and and they where were they from?

They were from Elfand. Oh, what a good name for it.

Um that was a very different type of story. That was that classic fairy tale

story. That was that classic fairy tale in the tradition of, you know, Cinderella and Snow White and so forth.

After Tolken, you could I don't think you could get away with that stuff anymore. You you damn well better do at

anymore. You you damn well better do at least the Howard level world building.

And the other thing for me was I also loved in addition to Tolken and fantasy, I I read other books including historical fiction and I loved historical fiction and I wanted to take

some of the wonder of fantasy but blend it with the the realism and the grittiness of of historical fiction. And

I think that really set the trend for at least the better fantasy people who uh who followed. Um, and also to tell the

followed. Um, and also to tell the truth, I just I just like it what So I do it in my own books here. And I know not everybody

books here. And I know not everybody likes it. It's, you know, you write what

likes it. It's, you know, you write what you what you love and what you want to read and you hope that other people also want to uh want to read that. You know,

I've I I'm aware of the criticism of my own books. Why Why does he spend so much

own books. Why Why does he spend so much time talking about heraldry? Well, I

like heraldry.

and I like food. So, yes, I will tell you what they're eating for dinner.

Um, and it's not all going to be, oh, I'm stopping at an inn and they'll have stew.

Uh, which like before talking, every fantasy book I did Conan ever eat anything but stew? I don't know. But

great world building, I think, really makes a makes a book or story come come alive. And uh and I love it. Um and if

alive. And uh and I love it. Um and if you don't want to read about food and heraldry, maybe my books are not for you.

Go find something else.

Yeah.

Go ahead, Robin.

I'd like to put something out there. And

I' I've heard too many people who come to me and say, "I want to be a writer and I want to write fantasy because you can write anything in fantasy." And I go, "No, no, no. I do a tremendous

amount of research.

You have to lower the threshold of disbelief."

disbelief." And that means that everything you write that is parallel to this world has to make sense to people who have experience

with it. If he's riding his horse across

with it. If he's riding his horse across the desert for 5 days straight and the horse doesn't collapse and die, half your readers are going to throw that

book across the room. If you have your family of three harvesting the wheat field in one day, yeah, you're going to make one loaf of

bread. Maybe you need to really look at

bread. Maybe you need to really look at it and say, how did people do these things? You need to look at geography

things? You need to look at geography and say, if you've got an ocean here and a mountain range, you've got a desert beyond it. You've got the because the

beyond it. You've got the because the mountains stop the rain. You can't you you need to really think about it.

Rivers have to flow downhill and that's really obvious, but there's a lot of things about geography and currents and you really need if you want to write a

believable fantasy where people can move into your world and walk around. You

need to do your research and you need to yeah what kind of food are they eating and where did they get it from? Oh,

you've got this massive army. Where are

your farmers who are growing the food to feed this massive army and your population that's giving birth to all of these soldiers and raising them up and

training them? You you know, put your

training them? You you know, put your roots down. And um I get thrown out of

roots down. And um I get thrown out of so many fantasies when I'm reading it and I'm going along and suddenly I go like, "Oh, you know, uh you can't grow

that kind of a tree in that kind of a swamp. I'm sorry." And now and now I'm

swamp. I'm sorry." And now and now I'm setting another book down and it makes me sad.

You don't grow your peach trees in the swamp. No,

swamp. No, you don't put oak trees in a swamp.

Well, you can invent a magic sort of oak.

You You can have willows. You can have lots of willows.

How about that's why people criticize my jumping in the ocean in basically China and swimming back to Middle Earth.

Yeah, there you go.

Oh, yeah. That that uh that was a little much here. Um

much here. Um so yeah, and a lot of the research you can do is book research. Uh because it doesn't

research. Uh because it doesn't necessarily we're we're you know 21st century Americans and Brits and other uh folks and we live in a modern world. Uh,

so you're going to write about something like the Middle Ages or the ancient times, you better do book research. But

what I also found is that some of these questions you can't answer with book research. You have to you have to talk

research. You have to you have to talk to people. I mean, when in my books,

to people. I mean, when in my books, when Bran gets uh thrown off the tower and he's he's uh paralyzed from the waist down, I I'm not paralyzed from the

waist down. I didn't know anyone who

waist down. I didn't know anyone who was, but fortunately I had fans who were and I wrote them and I asked questions and we had a little correspondent with a

guy who was actually a par paraplegic.

Um, and it was um enabled me to do brand the way I did them. And I've I've gotten some nice

them. And I've I've gotten some nice letters from fans who are disabled in one way or another who who like the way uh that I do it. Um, and if you think

you know it, you it can bite you in the ass here. I know my books have uh the

ass here. I know my books have uh the island called the arbor uh where they make really fine wine and uh that was very well established and then I started

getting letters from people who know a lot about wine and saying no what you said about the arbor it could not make possibly make the best wine no it's an island and instead the winds are in the

wrong direction and what is the s oh [ __ ] I should have researched wine better I guess but it's too late to uh to do that now and And the one that was

the most challenging to me um was uh Sansa um has her she's a a young u 11 12

year old girl and she has her first period. Um and I have two sisters but we

period. Um and I have two sisters but we never really discussed that issue. So, I

found myself talking to women. When

excuse me, but uh when did you have your first period and uh what was it like? And uh uh market research.

You don't know me, but I have a question.

And by the way, on that particular question, I got 37 different answers.

So, it's a very uh you know, very enlightening.

Very enlightening. And I kind of could choose whatever I wanted. But yeah,

I'm I'm I'm going to touch on something George just said, then I'm going to be quiet for a while. But um my greatest resource, George says, "A lot of stuff.

You can look it up in books, but I have a Rolodolex on my desk still." And in that rolodex is here's the person if I have a question about a horse. Can I

take a saddle off a cavalry horse and put it on a draft horse? What happens? I

don't know. But this person can say, "Well, you know, you're going to have all kinds of problems." or um just uh uh Steven Bur and I were writing a book and

we were going to have somebody get shot contemporary and we wanted it to do a lot more damage. 2:00 in the morning, he calls up this person he knows who works in the emergency room and says and says,

"This is what we want to do." And the person gets really excited and says, "Oh, oh, oh, you know what? What you he gets shot in the arm, but the bullet travels up the bone. It goes into the

body cavity. It's bouncing everywhere.

body cavity. It's bouncing everywhere.

And we would never have thought of that.

It was brilliant. That's why you need if you're going to write fantasy, collect your people. And maybe you don't have a

your people. And maybe you don't have a rolodex, but um got a phone. Uh

go after the not just the book learning, but go after the people, the people that know the weird stuff. It's wonderful.

The weird stuff is what makes stories good. You know, it's like just acrew

good. You know, it's like just acrew these people around you and be like, I'm going to pick your brain at some point to write a weird story. Yeah.

It's better than someone seeing your search history and being like, how long does it take a body to decompose based on the temperature rather than the humidity?

What the [ __ ] is wrong with you?

In a desert. Hello.

Think we all have that.

All right. We're going to get into I mean Robin you were speaking earlier about different kinds of systems and I think beyond just the systems that uh we experience in the real world you know geography and and and different things

like that uh there are also systems that we can create and this is going to be one that tickles Brandon's fancy which is magic systems and the ways in which magic systems can really enhance a

world. It can it can bring so much to an

world. It can it can bring so much to an epic fantasy story. But there are also a ton of authors who love to write hard magic systems and there are authors who like to write something in the middle or more toward the soft side of things. So

Brandon, I'm going to talk toss it to you as our resident uh magician.

Yeah, go for it.

Well, this is a I I want to point out um when I when I give this lecture, you can go watch my lecture on YouTube. I won't

give it here. The idea is not that you should write magic in any one way. The

idea is that understanding magic is a tool for storytelling and the different emotions that different types of uses of magic can produce. Um, and you know in

my books I tend to be I I come from a science background, right? U I was I was a chemistry major in college. I tend to be and you know I come to it from a love of uh of some great science fiction

novels mixed with some uh fantasy epic storytelling. And that's I actually live

storytelling. And that's I actually live in this Dune area as well. I read Dune years before I read um read Tolken and I appreciate both of them, but I would

also put myself in the more inspired by Dune category. Um and I I look at these

Dune category. Um and I I look at these things and I have a lot of fun with characters who are trying to navigate making these things work as if they were

a branch of science. But there is a cost to that. Um, the cost to doing magic the

to that. Um, the cost to doing magic the way that I love to do it means that you do lose some of the the sense of wonder that's innate to magic. Uh, in the sense

of fear, there's a fear to the story like the monkeykey's paw. Uh, there's a fear to using some of these softer magics that you get the sense that a

human doesn't know what they're doing.

And when they when they use the magic, terrible things can happen. Uh, Tolken

was actually really good at this, right?

He has a hard magic system. You slip on the ring. You know exactly what happens.

the ring. You know exactly what happens.

The characters can use it to solve problems. You've got a soft magic system. Whatever Gandalf does is going

system. Whatever Gandalf does is going to be cool. You're not sure if it's even magic or if something else happened, and it's going to have dire consequences

that the the rest of the characters can't even comprehend. Um, and these two magic systems are used for brilliant purpose um in the books. And um so I

love seeing how people use magic. People

assume I read exclusively uh rule-based hard magicisms, but I don't. I read

widely around them all and I appreciate them all. They're all like, you know,

them all. They're all like, you know, fine wines where there's so many different vintages um and so many different things to taste. And so don't make the mistake of assuming there is

one way. Um I do worry that a lot of um

one way. Um I do worry that a lot of um of writers who are inspired by me assume you have to do it my way. Uh, which is interesting because when I broke in, I sat on a lot of panels at world world

cons and people told me I was crazy because this was the the urban fantasy boom. And in urban fantasy, you often

boom. And in urban fantasy, you often don't want the characters to have absolute control over what they're doing because you want to maintain some of that horror and mystery to the use of magic. It should be something that

magic. It should be something that mostly belongs to the faye or the monsters or whatever that you can weaponize, but dangerously so. Not all,

obviously. There's no rules to this, but when I broke in, people were saying, "No, you you shouldn't do it this way.

If you have rules, it ruins the magic system." Just I would just encourage

system." Just I would just encourage people if you're a writer, try all different applications until you find what works for you. And what works for you may be different for every book.

Yeah, completely agree.

The readers uh react to this differently, too. And there are

differently, too. And there are definitely schools of this. I' I've been on many panels at conventions about people who uh have devised elaborate magic systems and they're very proud of

this and and their readers are excited by this wonderful innovative magic uh system that they have created. But I'm

uh no I I don't have a magic system that I have created. I don't think you should. I don't find it helps.

should. I don't find it helps.

If you look at Tolken and there's epic fantasy, there's high magic and low magic. Tolken is actually quite low

magic. Tolken is actually quite low magic. I mean, Gandalf may be a wizard

magic. I mean, Gandalf may be a wizard and and uh you know, but what does he do that's wizardly? I mean, they're in

that's wizardly? I mean, they're in Moria and here come a 100,000 orcs and they're going to get killed and eaten.

What does Gandalf do? He pulls out Glamouring his sword and he stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Boromir and Aragorn and these hobbits and they try

to fight their way through the orcs. He

doesn't just wiggle his fingers or raise his staff and make the orcs melt or anything. Gandalf is wise. He knows

anything. Gandalf is wise. He knows

things. He knows things, but he he uh it's not big magic really. Even

Sauron, what? He's the ultimate dark evil kind of guy and he's a big eye and what does he do? He can't even in the battle he gets his arm cut off and and

the ring is lost by just a guy with a sword. A guy with a sword. Not a magic

sword. A guy with a sword. Not a magic sword. Uh but just a sword. But it all

sword. Uh but just a sword. But it all works. It's powerful. And I think magic

works. It's powerful. And I think magic if you look at at the real world um I'm I have to say uh I don't know some of

you may be wizards or or pagans or witches or something and you actually believe in magic. I met people like that but I don't and um

I don't I don't think magic really works. These magic systems are fake

works. These magic systems are fake science. It's it and it's it's uh

science. It's it and it's it's uh it's JD Rowling magic where you can go to Hogwarts and you can take a course in

spellcasting or mixing potions or how to properly summon the demon. Um, no. That

stuff is dangerous and uncertain and you can you can look at it and uh who knows will it work for you or not or will the

cost of it be worth or will it be a total [ __ ] I don't know. I like

that. I like that that. So, no. But the

people who like elaborate magic systems, the fans who like it, the readers who like it, they're welcome to do it. But

it it's not for me. I mean, everyone has their preference when it comes to the stories, but also when it comes to magic systems. So, someone might really like Brandon's magic systems. Someone might like, you know, more urban fantasy style

magic system or soft magic system in epic fantasy. Now, it's your turn,

epic fantasy. Now, it's your turn, Rebecca. Go for it.

Rebecca. Go for it.

Um, I was just trying to think like what my magic systems are like, and I think, uh, my magic systems are very organic to the individual.

uh because uh sort of the cultures that I'm familiar with and I work with uh there is often not a line between what is reality and what is magic. The whole

world is magic. We're living uh with it around us all the time. So when I come to a story uh I want the magic to feel

organic to who those characters are. So

in my first series of novels which is urban fantasy it is not epic fantasy. Uh

it is set in a near future Navajo nation and the magic that uh a post-apocalyptic Navajo culture would have is going to be very different I think than you know

what a what a Tolken might have even though I haven't read Tolken or or someone else. So it had to be based in

someone else. So it had to be based in their lived experiences and and their uh knowledge of the world and how the world works. And the same with my epic

works. And the same with my epic fantasy. I was like oh what am I what am

fantasy. I was like oh what am I what am I doing there? uh the main character like uh has the ability uh who who goes through trauma. I think a lot of my

through trauma. I think a lot of my magic is also rooted in trauma and how trauma sort of awakens our ability uh to change the world around us for better or

worse. Uh and so now he can uh call, you

worse. Uh and so now he can uh call, you know, animals to do his bidding, crows specifically, but it's a very symbiotic relationship. It's not a one or the

relationship. It's not a one or the other. And then I have a character, you

other. And then I have a character, you know, that interacts with like the ocean in the in the same sort of way. also

awakened by trauma. I'm seeing themes in my work that I hadn't seen before. I

have issues. Maybe I need therapy and not a book. Yeah. But anyway, so I think that's for me. I haven't really thought of it as like systems. There's definitely no science behind it. Science

is not my thing. That's why I'm a writer. Uh and I think, you know, it's

writer. Uh and I think, you know, it's all sort of about organic in our interaction with the world. and that

there's a very thin line, if a line at all, between humans and nature and magic and what that all looks like.

Ryan, get in here, buddy.

Yeah. Like, I actually really love what Rebecca said there because that's craft.

That's using magic as a as a conveyance tool to to show trauma to to dig deeper into the characters. You're using two thing your one thing to do two things,

which is it's it's craft. It's

everything. But what I love, we talk about magic systems, all right? I think

sometimes people just hear the word system and they go, "Magic doesn't have a system. So you you can't have it." But

a system. So you you can't have it." But

I love the exploration of something that's understood and something that's not understood. And in when I'm in when

not understood. And in when I'm in when I'm writing my own books, I like to have both because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

So as soon as someone believes they understand something, it opens up a whole realm of world building. You look

at the wheel of time. You look at the breaking people who thought they knew more than they did. People who thought they had a larger grasp of magic and then you're going back to a soft magic system where they actually don't

understand what they're doing, which is, you know, it is it is science. It's

people not understanding people who create like you look at the the atom bomb, you look at people creating something for one purpose, not understanding how it can be used for a different purpose. And so like

different purpose. And so like when I when I really find magic systems or any magic that I love, I love the unknown is incredible. You know, when

you see panels that are solely based on token or someone else, it's always about the things we don't know. What is Tom Bombadil?

Okay, we'll never know.

That's a panel that that's that happens all the time because we don't get the answer. And that's why magic is

answer. And that's why magic is wonderful because you don't get the answer. But it's also amazing to play

answer. But it's also amazing to play with the craft element of well I do know I do I have a system I know how it works and then it fails because you didn't know as much as you thought you did

because magic is magic but having the two of them is a really cool dichotomy to play with when you're writing.

Yeah, that contrast and that interplay is really really cool. Go for it Brandon.

I would say just piggybacking on what Ryan said um and this is this is the most relevant thing. I I I talk about this with my students. They say it's it's really fascinating because we're

all in this pan panel because of world building, right? That's what sets off

building, right? That's what sets off fantasy from other genres, but we're in some ways not in this room because of world building. Um, if it were all about

world building. Um, if it were all about world building, you'd be able to read an encyclopedia um uh you know, or a a gaming manual or something on a world and you'd like that

just as much. And you don't. Magic is

only as interesting as what it does to the characters, whichever system you're using. And this uh and it's only as

using. And this uh and it's only as interesting as the themes that it advances and the ways that it makes uh the the narrative work. Um magic in

world building is the least important part if you're going to put you know plot setting and character. Um I would say that setting is the least important.

Um because a a book with fantastic characters and a weak setting is still generally a fantastic book. We'll

complain about it. We'll have panels about it and be like, "Look how broken the magic or the technology is for this given thing, but we'll still bond to those characters." And so we do I use

those characters." And so we do I use magic systems kind of like the gateway to get in. But you don't stay for a magic system. And you stay because of

magic system. And you stay because of character. And you know, if you're going

character. And you know, if you're going to be a a great writer, character, I think, needs to come first, whichever genre you're writing it in, however you're approaching it.

I wholeheartedly agree. Just as you were saying that, it came to a thought as well about with with George George's writing and the song of ice and fire with with magic and you're saying about how the characters interact with magic and how they're affected by the magic.

And that's kind of the thing that got me when I was reading that is the complete helplessness they have to magic. You see

Stannis is one of the like greatest military leaders in history. He he can't do anything and he doesn't know why and nobody knows why. And you even see like the red woman and at the same time she

doesn't even seem to really know why.

And like that exploration of the different styles of magic and showing how it can affect people, the lack of understanding can just you're at the behest of anything that's mostly from

historical fiction. And I love the fact

historical fiction. And I love the fact that the prophecies are always accurate but always wrong. They always

misinterpret them and then it bites you in the ass. You thought you were going to this was going to happen. Look at you know Mc Beth and uh when Burnham Wood comes to Dun. Yeah. Well, it sort of

does, but uh it doesn't help him any.

And I do I I do love that. I think I got turned to get to discuss magic. Um and

very few fantasy writers do this, but it gets you into religion, you know, does your does your fantasy world have gods and and archangels and other kind of

things that are going around and what sort of powers do they actually have? Uh

I think I got corrupted on some of this issues when I was a small kid. I w I was like seven years old I believe when and I was a pretty smart kid and I came to

my parents one day and said uh uh I don't think there is a Santa Claus.

It doesn't make sense. Uh we don't have a fireplace. How does he get to how does

a fireplace. How does he get to how does he get to our house? And and and how does he get to every child in the world in one night? And uh reindeers don't

fly. I know this stuff. And they said,

fly. I know this stuff. And they said, "Oh yeah, you know, you're a very smart kid, George." And yeah, don't tell your

kid, George." And yeah, don't tell your sisters. They're young. They want to

sisters. They're young. They want to they want to believe in Santa. Don't

spoil it for them. So I did. Okay. But

there was no Santa Claus. And I knew that kind of early on. But then I made a mistake. A year later, having been

mistake. A year later, having been praised for that, I applied the same standards and I said, "There's no Jesus either, is there?

He did this walking on water and raising people from the dead. If he could raise Lazarus from the dead, why didn't he raise everybody from the dead? I, you

know, and they were not happy with that revelation.

You got to be careful here in these fantasy worlds whether Jesus or Santa ever shows up.

They just have to teach you how to saddle the reindeer.

Yeah. Once teach you how to saddle the reindeer, now you know it could fly.

Once you know how the saddle works, it all makes sense.

All right, Robin, go for it.

Microphone.

Microphone. Yes. Um, this is magic because I don't know how it works, but it works. So, any sufficiently advanced

it works. So, any sufficiently advanced technology/science is indistinguishable from magic. Any

sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from science. I take a match out of a

from science. I take a match out of a box and I can make fire anytime.

But that's because I I know there's the chemicals and the friction and it works.

Um, you better know your magic. Really

really I'm assuming that a lot of you actually are interested in becoming writers when I'm talking to you like this. You better know your magic. You

this. You better know your magic. You

better know what it can do. You better

know what it can't do. And please,

please, for the sake of every reader in the world, don't tell me the magic can't do that. Magic's incapable of that. Oh,

do that. Magic's incapable of that. Oh,

we're really in a tough situation. If we

try really hard, the magic will do it.

Oh, please don't do that.

Internal consistency.

Oh, okay.

But, you know, I I don't like Apple magic. I like the kind of magic I have.

magic. I like the kind of magic I have.

George, we'll have a master class of evil magic. Google magic. That's really

evil magic. Google magic. That's really

bad stuff.

That's not sufficiently reliable magic.

Well, the AI magic is going to get all of us and it's right around the corner and it's going to get you. It will. It's

bad stuff.

Yeah, that's that's the dark magic. Um,

so, uh, we talked a lot a little bit earlier about kind of, uh, the progression of fantasy over the the '9s and those early 2000s. And I do think the past couple of decades in particular

have been a really exciting time for nerds in general. Um, you know, we've got the Lord of the Rings film trilogy.

We've got TV adaptations of things like Game of Thrones and the Wheel of Time, right? Things like that that have kind

right? Things like that that have kind of brought epic fantasy more into the mainstream. Um, so in your view, what

mainstream. Um, so in your view, what are these kind of shifting standards of adaptations? Do you think that this is

adaptations? Do you think that this is affecting expectations for the epic fantasy genre as it's written? Um, so I saw how you reached for your mic. Let's

start with you.

Yes. Yes.

Thoughts? Uh, I I had the uh joy of uh taking Black Sun out uh in Hollywood recently, like pitching with AMC and uh Angela King from The Walking Dead. And

I'm sorry.

Say it again.

I'm sorry.

Exactly.

It's brutal out there. I will tell you the question I got the most is, is this a romantic?

Uh what is the relationship like? What

do the Tik Tok fans say about your main characters? Uh and so I think the the

characters? Uh and so I think the the biggest shift that I'm seeing uh is is that is that you are finding epic

fantasy being mixed with romance uh which does not have very strict worldbuing like guidelines or uh research at least in my in my

experience. Um and uh and then things

experience. Um and uh and then things like murder mysteries like I think Robert Jackson's Bennett uh the tainted cup is it up for a Hugo? I loved it. I

thought it was brilliant.

Fantastic book.

Uh, and that is epic fantasy. Uh, but it is a murder mystery, sort of a Holmesian sort of murder mystery as well. And

there are other folks sort of mixing genres. So, I think the trend that I see

genres. So, I think the trend that I see is actually moving away from epic fantasy. Maybe other people have like

fantasy. Maybe other people have like different like takes on that, but the feedback that I seem to be getting is no, no, no, it's not. That's not what we want to see. We have short attention

spans out there. Uh, epic fantasy is too big. It's too long. Your characters are

big. It's too long. Your characters are too complicated. I don't understand.

too complicated. I don't understand.

Wait, who do they love? Like, you know, and you're like, "Oh, okay. Well, I can put a love triangle. I do love a love triangle, but that's not why I'm writing epic fantasy." So,

epic fantasy." So, well, Brandon, you clearly have thoughts when you apologize.

Uh, I think number one, it's been pretty good for fantasy. Um, I think again, Game of Thrones was a was a big um a big game changer for this. Um, it's both a,

you know, it's good and it's bad, right?

Uh, for years they everyone chased having another Game of Thrones and I do think that was destructive to some properties they bought. Um cuz for a while it was like you either have to be Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. Um and

I don't think Hollywood did a very good job with either of the things they tried to shove into those boxes. Um but I do think uh uh you know there's been some

really good things. Uh Arcane in um is is uh is uh is great and some of the some of the animated things that we're seeing um and there it looks like they're willing to try in Hollywood with

adaptations. Um and so so that is good

adaptations. Um and so so that is good because I know it's partially an adaptation question on the trends that we've seen in our era. It's been

interesting because um there was like when I broke in I broke in in 2005 for about 10 years it seemed like the kind of things like I was writing was what people naturally um were were buying

from new writers. Uh because you saw a bunch of us Brent Weekes me uh Rafus though of course he has both magic systems. Uh NK Gemson I've mentioned again she tends to do both hard and soft

and all around but uh the things that broke her out were more of a hard magic system I I I believe. But regardless,

after that, there was this this wave of let's try diverse voices in fantasy. Um,

which was kind of another uh great movement. And now we're in the romantic

movement. And now we're in the romantic era. Now we're in the Yes. But what if

era. Now we're in the Yes. But what if they kissed um era, which actually um has me smacking my my forehead a little bit because I feel like there's two

trends I've missed uh pre-aging. One um

was when um the dystopian thing happened. And I'm like, "Oh, of course

happened. And I'm like, "Oh, of course if you take the most dangerous game and make it teenagers, it's the teens are going to be like, "Yeah, my life is dystopian." They're all going to buy it.

dystopian." They're all going to buy it.

Like when Hunger Games hit, I'm like, "I should have seen that." Um, I did preage. We do also with Let's not

preage. We do also with Let's not discount the um the cozy fantasy um the postcoy fantasy, the um the things that are happening and and I like that one

too. But romanticy is also kind of

too. But romanticy is also kind of obvious now that it's happening that dragons plus kissing would have been uh really popular. But um

really popular. But um yes, kissing.

Yeah. Um

what do I think about the trends? Uh you

know what the thing about it is? Uh good

stories are evergreen and that's always been the case. Uh good stories are evergreen. Um the in the mid 90s it

evergreen. Um the in the mid 90s it shifted toward more grim dark but uh the wheel of time kept selling um right and

I wouldn't call Robin Hob grim dark um and uh I mean you do treat fits pretty poorly but it's grim dark for fits and no one else does it to himself.

Yes, that's true. It's all his fault. Um

but you know there were still openings for other things even though but that opening up let Joe Abberrombie and some of these uh come out and sell. Um I

think good stories are evergreen and I remember sitting I'll end with this on a world fantasy convention uh in the uh in the audience cuz I hadn't sold anything.

This was like 2002 or 2003. And there

was a big editor who I shall not name on the panel. And I was listening for what

the panel. And I was listening for what they're like, they're telling us what's going to sell, what we're supposed to write. And they said, "Do not send me

write. And they said, "Do not send me vampire books." Vampire books are the

vampire books." Vampire books are the things that nobody wants. We are not buying vampire books. Stop it. Uh, pun

intended. Vampire books are dead.

Twilight was a year later.

Nobody knows. Write your stories. Uh,

good stories are evergreen.

Yeah, I agree, George.

Yeah, I write I said this earlier. I

write what you want to read. Write the

things you love. If you're lucky, other people will also love them and you'll find an audience. That's not guaranteed.

Uh, when I talk to classes of young writers, they say not a profession. if

you if you temperamentally want security and a nice career that you can have and advance and get promoted and eventually they give you a gold watch and um no

it's it's uh you know I've crashed and burned at least twice in my career and and then um uh then I didn't crash and burn on this one but there's still time.

Uh but so uh you don't know and you you're right. Yeah, you hear these

you're right. Yeah, you hear these things and I've heard a lot of them over the years here and many of them are uh profoundly stupid. Uh don't put a yellow

profoundly stupid. Uh don't put a yellow cover on your book. I've heard no book with a yellow cover has ever done well.

What?

And and uh they come up with stuff like that. Yeah. I wanted Knights on the

that. Yeah. I wanted Knights on the cover of Game of Thron Oh no. You can't

have knights. They Nobody likes knights.

They would be they would be that would not sell at all with knights. Uh okay. I

like knights, but um and it turned out there were other people who did too. Um

write the stuff that you that you love.

Write the story that uh you want to read and that hopefully other people will also want to uh want to read it. That's

kind of the best I have. And you're

still going to get uh you know, if everybody in this audience went home and wrote a novel, maybe 10 of you would sell it and and four of you would have a hit. But uh it's tough. It's

hit. But uh it's tough. It's

competitive. It's uh Steven Donaldson 40 more than 40 rejections for the Covenant books. And he wrote those books. He

books. And he wrote those books. He

wrote the entire trilogy before he started sending it out. Um which is also, by the way,

out. Um which is also, by the way, something that I did on most of my books. Um

books. Um because I I started out writing short stories. I wrote short stories and

stories. I wrote short stories and published short stories from 1971 to 1977, six years before my first novel was written. And I did not sell as a lot

was written. And I did not sell as a lot of people were doing at the days. I did

not sell chapters and an outline. Why?

Because I was afraid they might buy the chapters and outline. But then I my muse who is crazy would decide to write something else halfway through or I'd

miss the deadline or you know it wouldn't happen. I did not want to do

wouldn't happen. I did not want to do that.

My agents didn't even know I was writing my first novel and it was finished. And

then I sent the whole manuscript to them. Look, I wrote a novel. Hey, can

them. Look, I wrote a novel. Hey, can

you sell it? And turned out they could.

Um, that may not be for everybody. You

may be better uh, you know, if you if you like doing outlines and you like to work that way, maybe that's best for it.

But you got to find your own your own path. And, um, it's a challenging field,

path. And, um, it's a challenging field, but to my mind, that makes it uh, that makes it easier. And you get to go to conventions like this and talk with

fellow writers and uh, you know, all of that. And there's

that. And there's it can be a very rewarding profession.

Maybe in some cases financially that's been true for me, but not for everybody.

But I've gone through periods where the financing was not working. I thought I was going to lose my house and uh you know have to take a job selling real estate, but fortunately I didn't. Um but

um yeah, follow your own follow your own muse and do the best damn story you can.

Well, I really like what you said about there being stories in this genre for everybody, and I think that's really true, but historically, epic fantasy has been a little bit more white male-dominated, which makes it hard for

marginalized voices and women to find their spot. And then on top of that, you

their spot. And then on top of that, you have all the publishing challenges that come from being a debut in general. So,

I would love to hear, Robin, if you want to touch on this. When you first started in the industry, was it hard for you to break in? And how have you seen the

break in? And how have you seen the industry change since you started?

I was really focused on learning how to break in. I subscribed to Writer's

break in. I subscribed to Writer's Digest. I looked at Writer's Market. I

Digest. I looked at Writer's Market. I

studied a lot of stuff and um I started out writing children's stories for the very small circulation uh and I I sold to like Jack and Jill and Humpty Dumpty

uh Digest magazines that don't even exist anymore for kids. But um the way that I broke in was it broke all the

rules which was uh I was attempting to write short stories of a fantastic nature. Um I submitted a short story to

nature. Um I submitted a short story to a little fzzine called Fantasy and Terror published by Jessica Amanda Sammonson here in Seattle. And instead

she chose it for an anthology she was putting out called Amazon with a exclamation point. Amazon's went on to

exclamation point. Amazon's went on to win a world fantasy award. Okay. So, now

I have a story in uh an award-winning anthology. And the editor of that

anthology. And the editor of that anthology, Terry Windling, said to Jessica, um you you I liked this story by Megan Lindholm. Is she is she writing

anything else?

And at that point, Jessica said, are are you working on anything? And I lied through my teeth. And I said, "Yes, I'm working on a novel." And um Terry asked to see it, which was

terrible, but I had two short stories and I hammered them together into a novel and I sent it to Terry and it was Harpy's Flight and that was the first Megan Lindholm. So I guess the moral of

Megan Lindholm. So I guess the moral of the story is you don't know how you're going to break in. Just keep writing and getting it out

in. Just keep writing and getting it out there. And I I so admire the people who

there. And I I so admire the people who are independently published, the people who believe in themselves enough to put their novel out there. And if you walk through the the dealer's room, you'll

see those very brave people out there saying, "This is my book and you should read it and you might like it." Um, you know, there's um are there any rules anymore?

Yeah, I don't think so. Ryan, I'd love to hear your perspective from the indie side and breaking in.

Breaking in How much time do we have?

Still waiting. Still waiting.

No, it's just it's someone was talking to me a while ago.

We did we did a a panel on and PR for authors yesterday and someone came up to me at the end and they were just asking you different things that I did or other bits. And I kind of had to say to them,

bits. And I kind of had to say to them, hey, look, you could do everything I did piece for piece, toe by toe, everything still might work. And like what Robin

said there, it's the most cliche advice ever is just sit down and write. Okay?

But you you can't do anything if you don't have a story. You can lie and say you have one on the way.

But if you want to be an author, the key thing is to have something written. And

even at the minute now, I have a my my seven-month old baby's at home and we've had her now. And I had to I was on deadline while she was she was she was born and that was crazy getting that

finished. And I've had a few months off

finished. And I've had a few months off writing now.

And I hate it. I need I want to write and like I didn't know I'd feel that way. I I love I love having everything

way. I I love I love having everything there and I love having um and her there but I hate not writing because I took some bit off to get some head space and to come out here and I'm just going even

now you some people will go oh if you've made it or you haven't made it whatever made it means whatever success means it's like I feel like if as soon as I stop and say okay I'm good is when I'm

not good like I need to go back and I need to keep writing and I want to get more done and so like I feel like as soon as you feel like you've broken Unless you're there for a long long long time, you're probably in the wrong

place. Like I just keep writing. Sit

place. Like I just keep writing. Sit

down and get it done. It's like with the TV adaptations. Like the danger that I

TV adaptations. Like the danger that I keep seeing is we have a massive runaway success. It's the same thing that

success. It's the same thing that happened with publishing for eternity.

You have a massive runaway success and you want to you want to mirror it. You

want a new one. But anything in visual medium is much larger scope. It's way

across the world. There's a much bigger reach, much bigger intensity and it happens much faster. And so something goes up, Game of Thrones comes up and they go, "Okay, all we want is the next one of these." And so every writer

starts going, "Okay, I got to write the next one of these instead of writing the story that they wanted to write." And

like that seems to be the message is write the stories that you want to write because it's there's no guarantee. And

it's the person who finds the gap in the market that's going to make the win. But

if you're chasing the trend, you're always getting leftovers. Like the gap in the market is the thing you want. You

don't want to chase the person who ran through it. Um,

through it. Um, that's all I had an editor um when I was trying to break in and I'm like, you know, it was a Del Rey editor and I'm like, what do

I, you know, uh, I he said, "Pitch me your story." And I pitched him a story.

your story." And I pitched him a story.

He said, "You know what? Go read Game of Thrones and give me that." I'm like, he actually said that, Steve Sappel, I don't know if you know him. And I'm like I'm like, "You have Game of Thrones.

It's really good, but I'm I can't write you Game of Thrones." So, yeah. Um, I

don't think I I I I wrote my books and eventually I found a place for them.

Yeah. Everyone's always going to tell you, I want this, I want this, I want this. But like you were saying, vampires

this. But like you were saying, vampires are dead. Next year it comes out. You

are dead. Next year it comes out. You

don't know. But if you don't write the story, if you don't write the thing you want to write, you're going to get either bored of it, you're going to get frustrated with it, you're going to burn out, you're not going to finish it, or you're not going to want to give it to anyone, or even if you do, you won't

have the enthusiasm to keep going when they want the second book. like it's you got to look after yourself because there's no guarantees. There's no silver bullet to do anything. Everyone takes a

different path. The only thing the only

different path. The only thing the only consistent thing that I've seen is the people who keep doing it for a very very long time seem to love what they're doing.

Mhm.

If you don't love what you're doing in an industry like this, you're going to be in trouble.

And I'll just add one note. Um just as you said, it takes a lot of time to get a book published. I would say probably from the time you sell it to the time it hits the shelves uh for traditional

publication and for people who are not you know they might fast track a brand new well you do your own stuff now but they would fasttrack your book or something but it would take 18 months uh usually from the time you sell it to the

time it makes the shelf. So if you're chasing a trend by the time your book hits the shelves yeah the trend is over.

Uh so you really do have to find the story that only you can tell or that feels personal to you and you that's what you have to put on the page because the story that you tell is also going to

speak to other people. Uh the better you tell your story you know sort of the more you can connect with others and they will come to your story. You will

find your readers. Uh so I wouldn't worry about that about trends. When I

was talking about that panel we did on on PR, one of the thing that came through than anything else is the only thing you control. The only thing that's consistent is being authentic.

That that is it. Being open, honest, and authentic. And it's the same when you're

authentic. And it's the same when you're writing it. Readers can feel it. When

writing it. Readers can feel it. When

you read a book, you know when the author loved what they were doing. I

know George loves heraldry. I know.

But that's but for me, it doesn't matter. I might not love heraldry going

matter. I might not love heraldry going into the book, but if the author loves heraldry and and they're really passionate about it, I'm reading it going, I [ __ ] love heraldry now. This

is great, but that's what the reading experience should be. And you can't give that to a

should be. And you can't give that to a reader if you're not in love at what you're doing.

Yeah, 100%. And and Ryan, I kind of want to get your takes and Brandon, too, since uh there are these forms of publishing. I mean it's it's vital that

publishing. I mean it's it's vital that authors are writing the stories that they want to write and the readers that will want to read them will find that story but at the same time there are different avenues through which we can

put these stories out into the world and and Robin brought up indie publishing Ryan you know you and I are in this world as well there are also things like crowdfunding and Kickstarter and I think

these are changing the landscape of epic fantasy not necessarily the genre itself but how that genre is delivered to changes the barrier to entry as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit more about self-publishing and how it relates to epic fantasy and and Yeah. I don't want to take over the

Yeah. I don't want to take over the panel with it, but it's it's just it's interesting like when I came in in 2021, like it's only been like four years, but it feels like it's been 10.

But when I came in, it was one of those I I didn't query and because I just I had like this real cliche thing on my head. It's like there's two reasons. I

head. It's like there's two reasons. I

will allow myself to fail, but I will not allow myself to fail for two reasons. is one is because I didn't work

reasons. is one is because I didn't work hard enough or two because someone else made me fail and I'm not putting my fate in someone else's hands and that was just it and I was just writing the book and I was having a great time but even

if I did even if I had a career people weren't buying the type of stories I was writing at the time that classic epic fantasy right then we were on a a wave where people wanted new things and it was like oh that's dead epic fantasy is

dead is what I kept hearing from everybody and then I was like okay all right cool but this um I don't know how to write romantic So, so I just want this story instead.

People want the kisses.

It wouldn't want the kisses though.

I just Yeah, I'm not good with triangles, right? Geometry wasn't my

triangles, right? Geometry wasn't my thing. But,

thing. But, but I just Can they kiss on a saddle? On a Pegasus saddle. Can I have

saddle. Can I have You were getting to a different realm of romant. But,

romant. But, but I think there was something there. I

I described this as like it kind of felt like Justin Bieber walking in when pop music was niche. Okay. because you come in and I'm like, "Okay, all right. Um,

here's my epic fantasy because, you know, that's what I love writing." And

then all of a sudden over the space of months, readers just kind of appeared everywhere. You're like, "What's

everywhere. You're like, "What's happening?" And you're like, "Well,

happening?" And you're like, "Well, there's actually there's not a lot of new stuff in that area coming right now, strangely, because publishers weren't buying it." And that's part of how that

buying it." And that's part of how that indie method can change the landscape.

And I can move forward now, and I have a a worldwide print deal with the with with my publisher now, but I still have my ebooks and my audios with someone else. And you can see how the world is

else. And you can see how the world is shifting in publishing. And the ability to be hybrid allows you huge amounts of flexibility. It also allows you

flexibility. It also allows you financial diversity which is important for maintaining a career. And it's what I've had to look at. I was like, hey, do I want to do I want this to be a career?

Yeah, I do. Well, I need to feed myself.

So, I need to make sure that I look after myself that way and see how to do it. But it allows that barrier to entry

it. But it allows that barrier to entry changes. You know, publishers want this

changes. You know, publishers want this this time. That doesn't mean that all

this time. That doesn't mean that all the other stuff's gone. It just means you have to wedge it in somewhere else and hope it spreads.

You don't have to just feed yourself.

You got to feed your baby girl now, too.

So, I didn't hear you.

You have to feed your baby girl.

Oh, yeah. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

I got you got to do that. But it's a big thing like especially I think with with indie one of the big differences is like anything you don't have someone like an employer or a publisher giving you a paycheck. You know, a paycheck you earn

paycheck. You know, a paycheck you earn but you don't have that. So, there's a lot less reliability. So I had a much more I needed to focus and Brandon does it extremely well like business acumen

level of trying to build a foundation and a business and a company and understanding that you are a business and you are a brand and you know I watched a lot of like your lectures and stuff before as well about what to do when you come in. I was like I'm

treating this like a job and um I think I was talking talking to um Adam before and I were just saying I came in and I was like I need to find a way I need to treat this like a business. How do you

write? Like I've written I realized my

write? Like I've written I realized my entire career has existed from a year after Rhythm of War to Win the Truth.

And in that time I've published 1.5 million words. And I was like that's a

million words. And I was like that's a lot of words. Well, you know, if I worked in insurance or in law or in something else, I can't go to work and not feel it that day and go home. So I

have to sit down. If I'm writing 2,000 words that day, they're written. If I'm

sleeping at 2 a.m., they're written. And

I don't know, it just if you want something hard enough, you chase it.

Definitely. And Brandon, how does crowdfunding and Kickstarter fit into your business approach and how how you can deliver epic fantasy stories to

people in different uh methods than just traditional publishing and those kinds of gate gatekeeping?

Yeah. Uh excellent question. So um I will say that I there's still a place for traditional publishing. I hope there will always be a place for traditional publishing. Um I um I think it is a

publishing. Um I um I think it is a valuable service. I like the editors. I

valuable service. I like the editors. I

like um I like the whole community. Uh

it's funny because in New York agents have a certain reputation that is pretty good. In Hollywood agents have a

pretty good. In Hollywood agents have a different reputation. Um and I mean uh

different reputation. Um and I mean uh the bookish community um of publishers, writers, um authors, well the same thing, but uh editors, publicists,

everybody. um just a a thing that I

everybody. um just a a thing that I think is a is it's a good uh group of people and I do think that uh some people are not served by indie publishing. So let's put that out there.

publishing. So let's put that out there.

Um I do think in general if you have the uh the business acumen and you it it's and you're willing to try it being hybrid is the way to go uh in this

market. This is just because um why do

market. This is just because um why do did I do the uh the crowdfunding? Why

did I do Kickstarter? Well, in 2000, I think it was 11, you'll have to fact check me on this. Um, McMillan, which is the the owner of tour, had contract

disputes with um with uh Amazon.

Basically, was over ebook pricing. It's

a big whole thing we won't go in go into, but the end result was Amazon turned off the ability to buy all McMillan books um on Amazon. So, for a

month, my books could not be purchased on Amazon. and Amazon was already at

on Amazon. and Amazon was already at that point um a s significant enough player that that could have sunk a publisher. Uh now they're they're even

publisher. Uh now they're they're even more powerful. Um when that happened, I

more powerful. Um when that happened, I realized something. I realized even

realized something. I realized even though I love all these people in traditional publishing, they work for Amazon right now. Uh they work for Amazon and to a le lesser extent Barnes

& Noble. I had friends that they they

& Noble. I had friends that they they would sell a book to traditional publishing. Everyone would love it. they

publishing. Everyone would love it. they

take it to Barnes & Noble and Barnes & Noble say doesn't fit our list and they wouldn't pick it up and that killed the book. Um and uh so indie publishing

book. Um and uh so indie publishing really started in 2010 with that Christmas season when the Kindle really got big. Um and 2011 my books got turned

got big. Um and 2011 my books got turned off or 2012 somewhere around there. I

said I want to have a direct line to my fans. Um, and I want to be in a position

fans. Um, and I want to be in a position that no company can destroy my career.

The only person who can destroy my career is me writing bad books. Um,

right. Um, and that's where I started to build all this and it took us a little while. Um, we we we our first book that

while. Um, we we we our first book that we released was 2015. Um, and that wasn't crowdfunded. And then we moved

wasn't crowdfunded. And then we moved into crowdfunding uh like 2017 or 19 after doing a few on our own. And then

we did the big one um um that that was so huge and I was able to leverage this.

Uh it's it's unfair to try to compare anything to me because I had a very successful traditionally published um career. I had made an effort for over a

career. I had made an effort for over a decade to build my own fan base and have them have a direct communication with me and then I turned that into directly selling them books. Um, I don't know if

that's a model that can be followed by anyone else, but I will say be aware that, you know, the reason I like crowdfunding is because uh, you

aren't beholden to Amazon or the publishers anyone. If you're doing

publishers anyone. If you're doing Kindle, you're still beholden to Amazon.

Yeah.

It's like what you did isn't replicable, but it does what indie publishing did.

It opens a window. It creates options and everyone isn't just beholden to being signed. Now it's not just about going

signed. Now it's not just about going on. So it's showing people what's

on. So it's showing people what's possible. It might not be at the same

possible. It might not be at the same scale but it's options. You know now indie is a viable option like a genuine

viable career option. like

I'm here like in general like I obviously I'm sitting here going I'm honored and privileged to be sitting up here with people whose books I was reading when I was younger and it's amazing and

I was able to just go and say I want to do that and I was able to do it and nobody was able to tell me no like and that's viable and the fact it's not just viable like it is like you

know it's a significant portion of the market um to the point that you know it's not like yeah it's it's a big deal um indie publishing and that that's great.

It gives trad authors options.

Options are never bad.

Options are the best thing you can ever have whether you want to take it or not.

Like an option that you never plan on taking is still extremely useful in the negotiation if you never tell anyone you're not planning on taking it. Like

that's business.

And the beautiful thing is that stories that could die on submission in the trad space, authors can now take that and find different avenues of making that story a reality and therefore giving you

readers the opportunity to delve into a world that they never they otherwise never could have done, you know, and that gives more opportunity for authors who don't have a trad career and want to

start in indie. that gives opportunities for trad authors who are having difficult having having difficulty in tra traditional publishing and able to go hybrid and self-publish at the same time. It's giving new opportunities for

time. It's giving new opportunities for voices who wouldn't have been heard before, marginalized people, women, uh, bipok authors, anyone really who wants to tell an

incredible epic fantasy story. Now they

have the opportunity to do so through different mediums, through different uh, publishing avenues. And it's really

publishing avenues. And it's really beautiful to see different authors, young in their career and older in their career, able to express their love for epic fantasy and tell these stories and

share these stories with all of us that we as readers and we as writers can embrace epic fantasy together and you know continue to push its success and

its brilliance into the future. And uh I just want to close out by asking all of you Robin what would you like to say my dear? Well, I was going to ask

dear? Well, I was going to ask permission to ask a question or two of the audience. How many of you have

the audience. How many of you have purchased and read an indie published book this year?

There you go. Okay. Um, that's more than half the audience.

How many of you have participated in a GoFundMe for an indie published book this year?

Okay. Not not quite as many, but it's still a sizable amount. Um, how many of you are getting a little bit tired of gigantic trilogies?

Anybody?

Gigantic trilogies.

You need at least seven books.

Yeah. For a trilogy. Yeah.

I was just I was just really interested in in knowing, you know, because we talk about indie publishing. We hear it's successful, but there you go. the crowd

has spoken, but I think just maybe I'm the last person to to talk about this because yeah, I I go back way um and I don't know what's where the future

is going to take us. I mean, we're seeing we're seeing so many things, you know, um streaming publishing, indie publishing, AI, Hollywood is changing, everybody's buying everybody else, and

companies are merging and they're all of that. And if you asked me five years

that. And if you asked me five years ago, 10 years ago to Future Publishing, I would probably have an answer that I'd been giving for years and how to break in. But I don't know if my answers are

in. But I don't know if my answers are any good anymore because things keep changing. Uh yes, there there are people

changing. Uh yes, there there are people who have had great success with indie publishing, but don't think that's necessarily going to be you. Uh I

there's a convention I go to every year where uh there's a guy who's been indie publishing for like uh I don't know 10 years. He has his own book out and we go

years. He has his own book out and we go into the dealer's room and there he sits. He's got a table and he's got his

sits. He's got a table and he's got his book stacked high and I I don't know if he's ever sold a copy and I know when you go in the dealer's room people don't want to make eye contact with him

because he's he's going to try to sell you his book. Um, and there are a lot more of those people, I think, than other people. And there are some indie

other people. And there are some indie published books that are great books, but a lot of them are not great books.

And that's why they're not selling to traditional publishers. They're they're

traditional publishers. They're they're flawed books. They're weak books.

flawed books. They're weak books.

They're there's a lot that, and that's true of traditional publishing, too. I

mean, editors don't think an editor sits there and just reads one great book after another. They love to find one

after another. They love to find one great book after they read 40 books that are not so great and are very derivative

in some cases are actually plagiarisms. Um so it's it's tough and and u and if you you are indie publishing uh how do

how do you distribute? Who's going to carry your books? What bookstore is going to carry it? What distributor is going to distribute it across the country? Um I own a bookstore. I if if

country? Um I own a bookstore. I if if you have uh too much money and would like to get rid of some of it, open a bookstore. Uh

bookstore. Uh and we have uh of course we have my books, but it's science fiction fantasy.

We have a lot of books by local authors, a lot of books by old authors and um new young authors that we happen to meet who's traveling through New Mexico. We

do that, but it's still hard to sell books and careers being, you know, your career is pretty secure. I I would think unless you say something that people

find objectionable and then you could be cancelled. Uh I've known several people

cancelled. Uh I've known several people who have been cancelled recently. You

have to, you know, with these conventions I've been going to 71, you used to be really be able to say anything you wanted to say about any damn subject. Now, you better better be

damn subject. Now, you better better be careful.

Uh the internet has changed everything uh there too. Uh I know young authors, people who've been at Clarion or Clarion West, they've studied, they have a lot

of talent and they're trying to break in and they read a book and they sent it to the publish. That's what I did. I wrote

the publish. That's what I did. I wrote

a book. I gave it to my agent. He showed

it to some publishers and one of them bought it. Now the even before they read

bought it. Now the even before they read the book I'm I'm being told this this has not happened to me but it's been happened to a bunch of authors. What

what what did the publishers ask when a young author hands in the book? Uh how

many followers do you have? Can you uh send me a link to your website?

Um and uh yeah uh that's we never had to worry about that in the old days. Uh

you're Brandon, you're obviously a master of this internet thing. Uh and uh God, the stuff you've done on it is amazing, but not everybody can do that.

And sometimes doing what somebody else has done doesn't work. I I um a number of years at my bookstore, we have traveling authors through we had John Scholsey there and we talked about uh I

interviewed him and we talked about how he launched his career. It was a book called uh old man's war which he was initially putting up on his website for free. You could just you know tune in

free. You could just you know tune in and get the latest chapter and he built had a lot of readers building up and uh an editor tour noticed this and read it

and said oh this is good and then tour bought that book um and his whole career launched from there. Well, I said to John, um, yeah, that but I know a lot of

people have websites and they put their books up for free and they don't get an author from tour or editor from tour reading it and making an offer. In fact,

they have like 37 people reading it.

What was the difference? How did how did your book when you were un unknown as a science fiction writer? What why did yours go through? And he said, he said,

"Well, I I was actually on the internet as a journalist before that and doing a personal blog." And at one point I uh

personal blog." And at one point I uh had wrapped bacon around my cat and I photographed it and it went viral. And

then a couple years later when I wrote Old Man's War, it was, "Oh, that guy with the bacon and the cat has a book out." So I I don't think that's a viable

out." So I I don't think that's a viable thing to imitate.

I also don't think I think you got to be careful about doing things that are popular. I remember the horror boom of

popular. I remember the horror boom of the late 70s and 80s when Stephen King was God. Everybody was suddenly writing

was God. Everybody was suddenly writing horror and you you went into the bookstore be Dalton's or whatever and the whole front section was paperbacks

with black covers and the letters were dripping blood. Um and that lasted like

dripping blood. Um and that lasted like a year or two and then it it stopped and then there was the urban fantasy boom which some of you have mentioned and

that's sort of dwindled too. Um I have friends who they had successful science fiction careers but then they oh this urban fantasy is big writing urban fantasy book but the timing wasn't right

by the time they finished the book that boom was over too. And I don't know about romantic is romantic that's the big thing right now. Is is that going to

last or is it the next thing here? I

don't necess if you love romance and fantasy and kissing and maybe erotica. I

hear there's a lot of sex in some of these books. By all means write a urban

these books. By all means write a urban fantasy or write a romanty book. But if

that's not your thing, don't change to try to accommodate that that trend because that trend may be over by the time you you do it. And I I don't know.

So my answer here is uh I don't know what advice to give young writers anymore except uh it would be good if you had a trust fund

or or won a lottery or uh you know had a had a spouse husband or a wife who had a very lucrative job and you could uh you know just sit at home and write your books and hope

get a trust fund or a rich family.

Robin, do you want to finish this? I

just wanted to add really quick that um it used to be as a traditional writer, traditionally published writer, I sent the book in and they copy edited it and they chose the cover and they put it out

there and they advertised it and it was in, you know, the trade journals and they pushed it along. And now

traditionally published writers are being asked to do you have a you know we're we're out here now we're pro promoting our own books. We're running

contests on our websites. We are doing a lot of the heavy lifting that the publishers used to do. And that's uh you know I I'm still scrambling to figure

out how you do all that. But it's been a real shift uh over the course of my writing career from the publisher doing all of that to the writers taking on a

lot of that themselves. And I think that contributed to self-publishing becoming a big thing because if if your traditional publisher is not doing the heavy lifting, you might do it yourself and make all make a lot more money.

Thing is people like you, they should cultivate people like you because you have a blog and you have how many thousands of readers? That's the

amazing thing about about podcasts and different different uh you know YouTube channels and and different avenues through which people can learn about this stuff and that's why WorldCon is amazing and all of you in the crowd for

being here to to learn from these fantastic authors and you know even if you're not a writer I think there's still a lot to learn about epic fantasy in this genre that you love and the fact that regardless of the path that an

author chooses I think that's a story is still true. I

mean, I I went to my first uh World Con in uh um 1973,

uh the Toronto World Con, and I've been going to almost everyone since. I've

missed a few along the way. Uh but World Cons and smaller regional cons where you go and you meet people. World Con is the best because it's largest and and you tend to meet your readers, but you also

meet other writers, you meet editors, you meet agents. Um but again though not so much as you used to. World Con used to be obligatory. Everybody in the agent

was here. Every every uh publisher was

was here. Every every uh publisher was represented. Now not so much. You the

represented. Now not so much. You the

San Diego Comic-Con has 150,000 people.

World Con has 6,000.

So uh and a lot of the publishers, they have a big table, big promotion at San Diego Comic- Con or at New York Comic-Con where I'll be going in October. Um but not so much at WorldCon.

October. Um but not so much at WorldCon.

I still try to go to World Con because I don't know it's it's a a special convention for me.

It is a very special convention and this has been a very special panel and we thank you all so so much for coming to join us and and I'm very happy that we could do this. This is the week uh

basically four years ago to the week that I started this podcast. And it's a blessing to be able to celebrate uh our four-year anniversary here with all of you, with George, Robin, uh Rebecca,

Ryan, and Brandon, with uh my besties, Greta, and MJ. I love you both very much. And I'm just so grateful to all of

much. And I'm just so grateful to all of you for taking the time to be here with us to talk about epic fantasy, to learn about this genre that we absolutely

adore. And you know, epic epic fantasy

adore. And you know, epic epic fantasy has come a long way, and I can see a beautiful future for this genre. Uh, and

so I just want to say thank you to all five of you. Thank you MJ and Greta for your friendship. Thank you to everyone

your friendship. Thank you to everyone in this audience. You're all beautiful.

Round of applause.

[Applause]