Figma CEO Dylan Field on the future of design and AI

I told the team before even during

literally on the day of IPO after you

know it's like number goes up number

goes down and we don't control that

number we control the inputs and we have

to educate the market the market uh

doesn't come out of the gate

understanding Figma so it's our job to

make sure that they understand our

business and um and that's going to take

[Music]

Welcome to Access from the Vox Media

Podcast Network. I am Ellis Hamburger

and I'm here today with my lovely

co-host, Alex Heath. Say hi, Alex.

>> Hey, Ellis. Uh, we're on week two, man.

We made it. We got through it.

>> We did. And today we have a special one

for you. We have Figma CEO Dylan Field

in his very first podcast interview

since the IPO. And we know the podcast

interviews are what matter most. This

was one of the biggest uh IPOs of the

year in the world of tech.

>> So, we're going to get to the interview

shortly. We talk about how it feels to

IPO, the future of design, #design, and

of course, the acronym of the year, MCP,

which Alex already has a bicep tattoo

of.

>> I do uh I can't show it on camera

because it's still pretty raw, but it's

there. I I also I'm just feeling good

after week one. you know, launching a

new thing is is tough. And um it was it

was a um sprint to get episode one out.

Um we did it in like record time, I

think, for a new pod. Uh and yeah, how

are how are you feeling?

>> I'm good, man. I'm just looking at you

just like, what the heck is up with that

guy? You launched a newsletter. You were

in Menllo Park three different days on

three different flights from Burbank

>> trying out new gadgets. Also doing the

podcast. Yeah,

>> you have dogs to take care of.

>> You have kids.

>> I don't know how you survived. What type

of supplements are you on? Is that some

AG1 [ __ ] What are we talking about?

>> No supplements. Um I probably need them.

Uh yeah, I do have two dogs, but you

have two uh little girls, so I think I

think you beat me in that. Um

>> yes, my DAU.

>> Your da. Yeah, man. No, uh the the

launch was awesome. Not just of the pod,

but of uh yeah, it's sources

sources.news. Please check it out. Um,

and

>> who named sources?

>> Uh, I did. I did. Um,

>> I thought I named it.

>> Did you name it?

>> Well, I think I came up with sourced.

And so, do I get to retain? Do I get to

add to my portfolio if you change?

>> I dropped the D. It's cleaner.

>> It's cleaner.

>> Hi, Justin Timberl. I also just want to

shout out the love we got for the first

episode. Um, those who clipped us and

credited and those who didn't. You know

what? I'll give you equal love. um seem

people seem to have really uh dialed in

on Zuck's comments about uh how he may

lose a couple hundred billion, but you

know, whatever. Their super intelligence

is on the other side. Um the interview's

gotten some pickup. I think we might be

the only new podcast, Ellis, to have its

first episode getting a playbyplay on

TBPN and a link in the New York Times.

So, I would say congrats to us on that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, getting a quote with

a couple hundred billion from the Zuck

is going to do well, right? I mean, how

many people in in Earth history have

ever been able to say that sentence,

right?

>> Yeah. Um, to be able to say that is a

thing. Yeah. I didn't even think about

that. Um, yeah, that's it's pretty wild.

But, uh, yeah, we we had a a nice toast

over the weekend at your at your house,

um, with our wives who have also, uh,

been a huge support and, uh, let us do

this crazy thing. Um, and shout out to

them and

>> shout out to them.

>> Uh, shout out to my dogs and shout out

to your daughters in uh, no particular

order, but yeah, man. Um, Figma, what to

say about Figma? Uh, biggest tech IPO of

the year as you said. um and I think

just a lot of attention on them,

especially in the age of AI and

um how they're going to compete with all

these vibe coding, no code tools that

are popping up. Um just before we

recorded with Dylan actually, weren't

you saying you you met with a company

that is wants to be a Figma killer

basically?

>> Yeah, it's very funny to be doing what I

do and then be interviewing the big tech

founders. I kind of represent the

startups on this show. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And they all get to say, "Oh, I want to

kill that company. I want to seek and

destroy." And then I get to interview

the founder of that same company

>> in the same.

>> So yeah, I feel like I'm seeing seeing

the matrix uh at this point. But I mean

it it it is funny. I mean these people

are all wrong all the time. I'm just so

fascinated by all the personalities

behind it. And I just try and like help

these people sharpen their thesis about

what it is that they're doing, why

they're unique, why you are likely to

beat this or that company, if that's the

type of trash talk you want to do. And

uh you know, in this industry, it's all

bets, right? I think like we talked a

little bit to Dylan about his investment

and I feel like he just kind of eyeballs

it. He's like a vibe guy. He's like,

"Yeah, that that founder seems really

smart." And Dylan is clearly very smart

and well read and uh bit of a polymath.

And so I I bet you that's just kind of

the rubric for him. And he's like,

"Yeah, place some bets." And uh seems

like a lot of them are paying off for

him.

>> Gosh. Yeah. I mean, we get in it we get

into it towards the end. Yeah. But man,

he's he's one of the best AI seed

investors of all time. Like no question.

I mean, you talk to people who are in

the industry and he comes up constantly.

Um and is running a public company as

well. uh and uh has has the deal flow.

So um you know that's that's the power

of Zoink at Zoink which we also

demystify. I don't want to spoil too

much but uh um you actually Ellis you

went to Config uh Figma's big conference

this year right?

>> Yes. Uh Config is a lot of fun. It's up

in San Francisco at Moscone should be

familiar to uh most of the people

listening to this show. I mean, they

just kind of have a cult these days.

Like, they've got totes, they've got

pins, they've got hats. Like, the swag

is just, you know, probably some of the

top startup status symbol. I mean, it's

funny. People show up to the conference

and like they don't line up for the

keynote speaker. They line up for like

the swag booth like down down the block

like I need that I need that Figma crew

deck. But, it it is cool. I mean they

partnered with some some you know big

and small designers to kind of flex

their brand and they also just like in a

sea of sy black gray blue minimalism in

Silicon Valley like they're one of the

more colorful ones.

>> Yeah.

>> Which I think speaks well to what they

are about and sticks out. I mean I think

people are training themselves to think

that like minimalism is somehow always

better. I mean it's just one way. It's

just a polar swing from, you know, when

things get too complicated, they get

simple, we unbundle, we bundle. We all

know that story. So, yeah, they they

seem to have a good thing going.

>> Yeah. When I went to config a couple

years ago, um I left and I I think I

called it the Coachella for designers.

And I'm not sure if I was the first one

to say that, but for some reason, I

think it's like it stuck after that. And

it did feel like that when you're there.

I mean, I'm sure you could like it's

they're they have this unique spot in

the culture, I think, right now. Um, and

it's interesting to be this they're a

tool. I mean, they're they're a design

platform, but they're essentially a

tool, but they also have this kind of

cultural footprint, which is super

unique.

>> Yeah. I mean, Coachella is a good

reference. I don't know how accurate it

is cuz it's a bunch of art school kids.

>> Yeah.

>> Not quite as rowdy as uh as Coachella,

though. I kind of wish it was and I mean

one of the things that Dylan talks about

on this pod is as designers get

empowered. Uh the way companies look is

probably going to get different right as

AI I think helps with a lot of these

traditional hard skills and research and

things that you know you had to know as

a founder to be an operator uh until

now. I mean I think the idea is that is

that theoretically we should see a lot

more design founders or product founders

these days. The biggest thing that stood

out to me in the interview was talking

about competition. Uh there's a lot of

questions, not just on Wall Street, but

I think just people looking at Figma

going, "What are lovable framer? All

these companies that are popping up and

kind of abstracting away design into a

prompt. How's that going to unseat Figma

or not?" And hearing Dylan's response to

that and also how it relates to their AI

strategy and MCP and all of that I

thought was really interesting and

something I hadn't heard him say in that

way before. Ellis, should we should we

get into the convo with with Dylan at

zoink?

>> Let's kick it to Dylan.

Support for access comes from Notion.

>> Ellis, you're a Notion power user,

right? Oh, yeah. I've been a Notion

power user for years. And when we had

one month to bring access into reality,

Notion helped us track our guest

database, to-dos, and notes all in one

place. And that is the truth.

>> That is the truth. We run this show on

Notion. And you know what? They just

introduced Notion agents. They're almost

like teammates that can use Notion with

you. They can draft, organize, and

execute across your workspace and keep

your work moving. We'll talk more about

how we use Notion later, but for now,

try Notion and agents for free at

notion.com/fox.

Support for access comes from Warp. Warp

is a topranked coding agent and one of

the fastest growing AI companies.

Trusted by over 700,000 developers and

56% Fortune 500, Warp is redefining how

software gets built. It understands your

machine stack and codebase. Combining

the power of a terminal with the

interactivity of an IDE, giving you a

tight feedback loop with agents to

prompt, review, and ship productionready

code. Find out why developers save an

average of 5 hours a week. Try Warp Free

or Unlock Pro for just $5 at

warp.dev/access.

So Dylan, this is your first podcast

chat since the IPO. How's how's it

feeling? How are you doing?

>> Good. The um it's been intense before

the IPO, intense afterwards. I mean, I

think the entire team is just eye on the

prize and we're pushing hard, but it's a

lot of fun right now. There's a lot to

do, a lot of exciting things that we can

bring to customers and uh overall the

energyy's just been very high.

>> Well, here's the real question though.

How often are you checking the stock

price? Like do you have like a lock

screen widget notifications? Like what

are we talking here?

>> Uh sometimes I go like a day or two and

I forget to check. So yeah, I'm pretty

focused on Figma. Uh it's legitimately

the answer.

>> Okay. Tell that to your sales team

because they're struggling right now. is

what I will tell you. Having gone

through the Snapchat IPO, those guys are

sitting there with that stock ticker in

the corner of their screen like, "Oh my

god, Barclay has just downgraded us. How

am I going to explain this to my

customers?"

>> Yeah. I mean, look, it's not something I

spent a lot of time thinking about. I

told the team before even during

literally on the day of IPO after you

know it's like number goes up number

goes down and we don't control that

number we control the inputs and we have

to educate the market the market uh

doesn't come out of the gate

understanding Figma so it's our job to

make sure that they understand our

business and um and that's going to take

time fortunately you don't have to

explain to the market that you were a

camera company. I would not advise that.

Uh but uh yeah, I remember reading in

your founder letter uh around the IPO,

Dylan, that you wanted to really set

yourself up with the long-term vision,

thinking about, you know, years or even

decades down the line. I think we all

know how fickle Wall Street can be and

how short-term shortsighted. I mean, how

do you actually operationalize that?

>> Yeah. I mean look I think that the first

thing is just grounding like what is the

long-term vision and in the founders

letter but also uh with the company all

the time we talk about it which is how

do you get from imagination to reality

and that's a vague idea uh then you have

to make it concrete and for us that

means digital products how do I go from

an idea in my head all the way to a

digital product is shipped and there's a

lot of steps along the way and uh how do

we serve those on our platform form if

you want to come in with whether it be

an idea on a whiteboard, you need to

make a diagram, you're doing it without

your team, you're doing it with uh doing

it by yourself or you're making slides

to align your team, you're going to

Figma design to create designs for your

next digital product and bring others in

to align on that or bringing them to

developers or even if you want to just

go from idea and a prompt all the way to

a working application with Figma make,

we're trying to make it so that you can

do all that in one place and it all

interoperates seamlessly across our

platform. Uh it's a lot and certainly we

don't complete that entire workflow

today. This is opportunities for us to

go you know build to buy to partner. Um

and we're going to you'll see a lot more

partnerships with us uh in the years

ahead. Uh we are not trying to do

everything. That's a recipe for failure.

And so we're always trying to figure out

how do we make it so that we're able to

work seamlessly with the ecosystem

around us, but also build up our

ecosystem. And it's yeah, it's a really

interesting time with AI to think about

how far you can go there and what you

can do for your users.

>> I was just going to say it's funny

speaking of imagination to reality. I

mean, did you first write that in like

2012 or something like that around that

time? literally like 2012 and I was

thinking about like BCIs and we're

working on stuff is kind of wild but

we're working on stuff in 2012 that you

know you get like 85% of the way there

but it's not until recently you could

get to 100%. So, for example, take a 2D

image and turn into a 3D scene. That was

one of the first things we built. And

with my co-founder doing very clever

combinational photography work, uh, and

some complex like geometric stuff, we

could actually get pretty far. Uh, and

it was wild at the time. No one had seen

anything like that. But, um, then you

kind of got stuck and it wasn't enough,

you know. Now you've got the newest

models where you're able to have

basically world models that are

consistent. It's uh incredible what you

can do. Or another example is just um

some of the photo editing stuff we

explored before we went and went into

Figma and really explored UI design. Um

things like face swapping or making it

so that you're able to uh really easily

do Photoshop like effects uh on images.

It was so fascinating to explore, but it

just wasn't ready yet and you couldn't

make it a platform. And uh I think it's

really cool to see now just how much is

possible. Um but that's, you know,

there's talk about imagination reality.

There's so many different ways that and

so many different domains you can do

that in. Um we're starting with product

design, making it so you can make uh the

best digital products as a team and

trying to complete that workflow. But

there's so many more workflows that we

could explore in the future.

>> Yeah, it's funny. I think even with that

phrasing like I'm very much a word

person and I work with startups on how

they express themselves and you were

definitely ahead of the game there. I

think with the imagination to reality I

don't if I had a nickel for every single

startup in the last two years that's

like bring your creativity to life.

Imagine a new reality like it's like

literally like dozens of them. Have you

noticed that? I I've seen it pick up a

lot more recently. Yeah. Uh I'm like huh

interesting. And it wasn't before I had

to really push for that and even at some

point you know we stopped talking about

those words because people found them so

abstract that it was hard to recruit

people and so uh I was saying you know

more around democratizing design make

design accessible to all still something

we care very much about

>> and at the same time it's like no I I

really do think in the era back to the

founding vision this is the broader

vision that we've always had um and now

I don't think I need to be as shy about

it

>> if we can stay on the IPO for a second.

So many founders and entrepreneurs, it's

like their dream, right, to go public.

It's like the you either get sold or you

go public. Those are the two outcomes.

And I'm curious, like go having gone

through it now, were there things about

it that surprised you that you didn't

expect? Um, and was there anything in

the process that you really loved or was

it kind of a thing that in hindsight

you're like, man, like so glad I got

that out of the way?

Um

well, first of all, I mean, I never like

woke up one day and was like, I got to

go IPO a company. That's my mission in

life. Um, you know, it's a step along

the way, but in a big step uh for an

achievement for the people that have

contributed to Figma in the past, in the

present, and uh I'm really proud of

their work and how it's kind of

aggregated up to a moment like that. But

this is the start of Figma still. Like

we got decades and decades ahead of work

to do. Um, and I couldn't be more

excited about it. I think in terms of

surprises, one of the biggest ones is

that basically nothing's really changed

since we've IPOed. Yeah, you got to

spend a little bit more time uh prepping

for earnings, stuff like that, but

otherwise we've really just been focused

on the long term. And uh the hope is

that that will continue uh and we'll

continue to create an environment where

we can do that and that's why I want to

make sure that investors understood uh

with our founder letter that that's

going to be our intention uh during the

process itself. I mean I think that

you know the there are parts that were

very enjoyable because you get to talk

with all these really really smart

investors and um I'm not saying every

meeting was a joy. Some of the meetings

were like the same questions again and

again, but there are some meetings that

just blew my mind and once in a while

you're meeting somebody whether you knew

about them or didn't know about them

before and they're asking some really

insightful interesting questions and uh

you know whether it's about the world or

your business and that's very fun to

engage and go back and forth with them.

>> Jamie Diamond,

>> what do we got? What sticks out? Yeah.

Yeah. I was like

>> I won't name individuals here but you

know or questions but uh it's it it was

in that part of it it was a fun process.

What one thing we did differently was um

we had demos that we made uh kind of

everyone watch before we come in and

talk about the business. And apparently

this is unique. Um to me it was just

obvious want to make sure people

understand what they're investing in. Um

but yeah, uh one person came out of a

meeting and he pulled me aside oneonone

and was like, "How do I transition to

design?"

And so that was like definitely a top

moment from the road show. Uh you know,

got to figure out how to get him into

design now. But it's like if I convert

one investor to be a designer, that's a

win right?

>> That's awesome. It it is a funny thing

trying to communicate with like such a

different audience with different levels

of literacy about what it is you're

building. Like being a writer, I am

professionally scared of Figma even

though I'm in Figma all day. And then

it's like being an investor is like a

whole uh a whole step different than

that. I mean, how do you explain it to

them? You know, when you're on the

earnings call and dude asks you about

market headwinds and how is your

guidance and you're like trying to

explain how you, you know, are

compatible or incompatible with what's

happening in the world, like how do you

explain why this stuff is important?

>> Yeah. I mean, I think that um really

what people want to understand is okay,

the greater context right now is that

there's a lot going on in AI. So, how

does Figma fit into that? And uh again

with going from idea to product going

and able to make an idea or a prompt and

go all the way to working application um

we see just a ton of possibility there

and Figma make is a big part of what

we're working on as well as improvements

with AI to the Figma platform in

general. We just uh teased a video a few

days ago last week where we showed how

you will be able to soon make uh edits

in Figma based on prompting as well. And

in one sense I think that we're so early

uh it's a point in time where you know

I've called it like the MS DOS era of

AI. I think we're all going to look back

at this time and go, "Wow, uh we were

prompting everything and there was such

an opportunity to go further um and have

other interfaces, other ways to explore

laden space. But on the other hand,

there's so much you can do with the

technology that's out there today

and uh actually being able to take full

advantage of it and really figure out

how to engineer uh products that let you

go and shape your vision uh and iterate

and explore. It's a big task and one

that we've been I think definitely

building all sorts of muscles around

internally. It's a different thing than

your typical deterministic software

engineering. But bigger picture to me uh

as value moves up the stack design is a

differentiator and this is a thesis

we've held for you know over a decade

now uh and just I think that the sort of

reasons keep stacking of why this is

true you know I couldn't articulate it

when we started working on Figma but

looking back it's kind of obvious you

know you went from managed servers to

cloud you went from box software to app

stores um you know in development and

tools were getting better. So of course

where does value start to acrue more to

well to design to the top. Uh and I

think now in a world where there's

exponentially more software uh and we

can argue about how steep that

exponential is but it's an exponential

either way. And in that world okay how

do you differentiate your product? Well

it's design. It's great user experience.

It's great branding. It's great visual

design. Uh it's a point of view. It's

your marketing. And uh all that I think

ladders up to design. And if we can help

support people winning through design uh

and making it so that more designers

become leaders, um more designers have

more impact, but also more people across

the company, whether they call

themselves a designer or not, can

participate in the design process,

that's a win.

Support for access comes from Notion.

Notion is the connected workspace where

teams write, plan, track, and ship

together. And with Notion agents, those

teammates aren't just human. Agents are

AI teammates that can complete

multi-step workflows end to end,

building pages, updating trackers, and

moving work forward while you focus on

the hard decisions. We even use Notion

ourselves. I use notion to run my

business, meaning from using AI notes

during meetings with very verbose

founders, creating beautiful clientready

docs, and I even generate my invoices on

there. So nice to have it all in one

place. We actually run the show on

Notion, too. It's how we track our

guests, to-dos, and everything we need

to get you access every week. The result

of all this, less chasing, more

reporting, and better conversations on

mic. Notion is where the newsroom and

the studio meet and agents keep the work

moving. Try Notion and agents for free

at notion.com/vox.

[Music]

Support for access comes from Warp. Warp

is changing how developers code. As a

topranked coding agent and one of the

fastest growing AI companies, not to

mention trusted by over 700,000

developers and 56% of the Fortune 500,

Warp is redefining how software gets

built. Warp understands your machine

stack and codebase and is built at the

terminal level, meaning it can write

code, respond to system events, and even

deploy to prod. And their mixed model

approach outperforms single model

approaches. It's built for the entire

software life cycle from prompt to

production. With the powers of a

terminal and the interactivity of an

IDE, Warp gives you a tight feedback

loop with agents so you can prompt,

review, edit, and ship productionready

code. Find out why developers save an

average of 5 hours a week and see how

Warp transforms your coding timelines.

Try Warp free or unlock Pro for just $5

at warp.dev/ac. dev/acess.

That's work.dev/access.

I feel like so many of my favorite

people to work with in my practice are

product design founders. Are you seeing

more or less like what do they need to

do to to take the reigns these days as a

new founder or CEO?

>> Um, yeah. It's it's so interesting

because I think that designers have all

the skills that are really needed to go

start companies. Um, and if you look

back, it's less than you would expect

that have started companies, but I see

the number growing all the time. And I'm

really excited that we have, I think,

just more and more role models out there

now for designers to go, okay, this is a

path I should consider. And I think that

um you know if you look at the future

designer leaders uh inside of companies

you know in the sea suite but as well as

uh designer founders and CEOs

I I suspect that's like where it's

headed and um I also am just seeing like

some real talent war dynamics heat up

for design. I'm not saying it's like at

the AI scale let's be real. uh you know

we're not seeing headlines yet about the

crazy you know 10 billion whatever it is

pay package uh for a designer yet but

>> um the talent wars are heating up

>> people are begging for zero to one

design founders right now

>> is like needed every founding team knows

that need a designer to stand out and if

they don't know it yet like you know

that might be a flag if you're investing

I'm not saying that uh every area

requires it. If you're some deep

infrastructure science company and you

barely have a website, um perhaps you

don't need to have a designer in your

founding team in the first five people.

But if you're building software and it's

going to be userf facing, uh that's

something you should be considering

deeply. I feel like there's a temptation

as a design founder for better or for

worse to redesign the whole company from

HR to sales. We're going to do a flat

structure. we're going to do a vertical

structure, we're going to do siloed. And

I love that mindset, but I feel like it

can also be distracting as like a

designer who sees problems and wants to

fix them. Have you experienced that?

It's like if you think about a brand and

the journey a user goes on with a brand,

you kind of think about a timeline and

there's all these different brand touch

points. It's like what's the equivalent

for a company? And some of those touch

points, you know, feel really good for

the user of Figma internally, an

employee. But what are the touch points

that we can make like 10x better, 100x

better? Uh I think there's still a lot

and I really want to do that as well. So

yeah.

>> Do you still spend time designing? Are

are you like cranking away in in Figma

yourself still?

>> Uh I would say my design contributions

in comparison to the team are very low.

Uh but I think that uh my feedback is

very large. Um I usually try to do a

pattern where I am uh voicing feedback

through customer voice. So the reality

is if you're operating a platform at any

scale uh you can find people saying

things

um that really represent any opinion

about the product and they'll conflict.

Uh but when I can tweet

>> that this feature is the best, here's a

tweet that it's the worst.

>> Yeah, exactly. And our customers are

amazing. Designers are incredible.

They'll actually give very detailed

feedback as you might imagine. And so,

uh, the chance to be able to funnel that

towards our team is is quite great.

>> What do you feel like, uh, you've had to

kind of pivot on in the last couple

years in terms of the feedback you've

heard once you launch something?

Uh I think the biggest thing that um I

wouldn't say it's a pivot it was more

just like it took time to build out was

uh we had our first launch around AI um

which I think was um there there are

many things to reflect on for us but

basically what we did is we had a

feature internally called first draft

and this was a uh very basic AI feature

in that it was essentially an LM

assembling Lego pieces. And what

happened with that was we shipped it as

a a feature called make design. And

uh make design, we did not in the rush

to launch do a full QA process on

everything that um were all those Lego

pieces. And there were some situations

uh or at least one situation where

people could recreate uh UIs that

shouldn't have been able to be recreated

with you know Lego pieces that we had

made

>> like the Apple weather app I think was

an example.

>> Yeah. Exactly. And so someone posted

that and I think if I hadn't felt it was

a QA failure, if I felt it was um you

know a natural result of like a system,

I might have acted differently uh and

then fix the system. But because it was

a QA failure and because I felt like it

didn't like sort of match up to my

personal ethics of how I want to be

operating this, um, we pulled it back

and reintroduced it later. And to me,

that was kind of a no-brainer. I think

other people made a big deal about it.

But then it also, I think, just started

our track on, okay, how do we go build

the system for real? And whether it be

through um frontier models, through uh

first-party models, how do we make it so

that we're able to do great work with

our user um get them to design

generation, whether it's 0ero to one or

with a design system, make it so they

can create edits, they can create new

effects that are extremely interesting,

and eventually get to a working

application, not just something in Figma

design that's a stopping point, but go

all the way. uh putting that out there

gave us the insights we needed that led

to Figma make that led to us in the work

that we're about to start shipping in

Figma design and uh yeah it's it's been

a big learning experience overall to

figure out how to work effectively with

AI systems but one that I'm really proud

of the team for navigating. I think it

also raises an interesting question

about what the models actually include

and when there is so much out there that

is kind of like the OS style. I feel

like I'm hearing lots of fears that like

as much as we all prize design and craft

that a lot of the generations of AI tend

to be generic. Do you worry about that

for like the the soft the future of

software design?

>> I think that's our opportunity. when

you're generating things and you're

getting this average result, that's not

what people want. Um, I think that we're

in a world where with AI,

uh, you know, good enough is not enough.

Good enough is now mediocre.

So, if you really want to stand out, you

have to be great. How can Figma help

make you great?

And what we're trying to do is allow you

to whether it's in make or in Figma

design iterate, explore

um and really push the bounds of what's

possible both with AI and also through

the human touch and explore that entire

option space of what's possible with

design faster because that's to me the

design process is you're looking and

you're kind of seeing around corners and

you're seeing here are all the paths I

could go down. Well, can you identify

the paths that are most promising

faster? And can everybody from your team

do that too? Can you make it so that

more people can contribute ideas at the

start and then as a designer you can

guide the process and you can keep

pushing further uh to make it so that

what the end result is is very

differentiated.

>> Do you feel like designers are still

worried about losing their jobs though

right now? It's interesting. I was I was

at an event last night here in Hollywood

and it was more Hollywood people but

people on the production side and just

there's so much fear in the room about

the tools and what they're doing and

enabling and I have to I mean I'm not a

designer and I'm not in the world like

you and Ellis but I have to imagine

there's a lot of fear and consternation

among a lot of Figma users that like my

job's going to go away because of this

stuff.

>> Yeah. I mean, I can't speak to the

Hollywood side, but we actually did a

survey around this recently and um put

out a report on it and it was um I'm

looking at the numbers right now. It was

17%

uh of our respondents that said

developments in tech tools and AI are a

threat to my role. So, that was the

actual number that we got from the

survey. Um now, you could argue is 17%

high, is it low? But I I certainly don't

think it's like everyone's going, "Oh my

gosh, what's going to go what's going to

happen here?" Uh, and I think it's

because designers kind of intuitively

know this is uh an opportunity for us

with AI. You know, Figma's point of view

is is going to lower the floor, make it

so more people can get into the process,

but also raise the ceiling and make it

so that you're able to do even more with

AI. And I think the more we can remove

the drudgery of uh repetitive tasks,

things that um you know maybe are uh

easy to conceptualize or describe

um but you know right now they're

tedious to execute.

That's something that AI can help with.

For example, one feature we shipped

super early on was rename layers. Um

very basic feature. It just you press a

button and it looks at all your layers

and it gives them a name. And you might

go, "Okay, well, what's the big deal?"

Well, designers can take hours to rename

the layers right now in a complex file.

And if you're someone who likes to have

the clean desk and be very structured,

uh, you might really care about your

layers having all the perfect names. And

so this is something that saved, you

know, countless hours of time for

designers already. Okay, now think

forward into what else you could do that

for and how else you can remove TDM and

get people to uh the point where they're

able to actually explore ideas further,

explore more ideas. That's the promise

to me.

>> Have you made anything good lately?

>> Huh? I've uh I've made some like

internal tools uh for myself. Um I

experiment a lot. You know, I try to do

uh a bunch of like very random

experiments that are kind of like a

little bit more artsy. Some of the

things that I've seen others make that

uh are far more impressive than what

I've created myself. Um you know, I've

saw some really cool typography tools

recently that just blew my mind as part

of our Make Hackathon. Um, I, uh, saw

some people that made like some pretty

cool like interactive experiences,

games,

um, and, uh, you know, even like things

like complex synthesizers,

um, you know, uh, poetry explorations

and not all these are products per se,

but just the creativity of our community

is kind of like always amazing to see.

And uh sometimes they also went outside

the field of software. You know there's

uh some users that were exploring ways

to understand uh biology better and uh

DNA RNA sequences. So yeah, it's pretty

exciting to me to see what you can do

when you start to hook up these data

workflows and make it so that you can uh

really visually explore data in that way

too. Support for access comes from

notion. Most work these days feels like

busy work. It's hunting, updating, and

coordinating. With Notion AI, you get

your own AI team powered by your work,

and all in one place. It knows your work

context, your meeting notes, tasks,

calendars, and plans. And now with

agents, it actually does the work for

you and your team. Anything you can do

with Notion, your Notion AI agent can

do, too. Agent can build pages,

structure data, search across your

tools, and execute multi-step workflows

at your direction. Ellis, how are you

going to use a Notion AI agent?

Honestly, I'm excited to use an agent to

turn all my notes into nice, easy

interview questions, ranked by

juiciness. Of course, we got to have it

juicy. At the end of the day, Notion is

AI that understands the way a team works

because it lives inside the same

workspace you do. Notion plus agents.

Fewer tabs, fewer handoffs, better work.

Start for free at notion.com/vox.

Support for access comes from Warp. Warp

is changing how developers code. As a

topranked coding agent and one of the

fastest growing AI companies, not to

mention trusted by over 700,000

developers and 56% of the Fortune 500,

Warp is redefining how software gets

built. Warp understands your machine

stack and codebase and is built at the

terminal level, meaning it can write

code, respond to system events, and even

deploy to prod. and their mixed model

approach outperforms single model

approaches. It's built for the entire

software life cycle from prompt to

production with the powers of a terminal

and the interactivity of an IDE. Warp

gives you a tight feedback loop with

agents so you can prompt, review, edit,

and ship production ready code. Find out

why developers save an average of 5

hours a week and see how Warp transforms

your coding timelines. Try Warp free or

unlock Pro for just $5 at warp.devac.

That's warp.devac.

MCP is fascinating to me. For people who

don't know, I think it's what? Model,

context, protocol. Is that right? Um,

and you guys have this pretty hilarious

video for your server that you put out

this week uh that people should check

out.

>> Definitely everyone should watch this.

Dude,

>> oh my god,

>> awesome. It's good because it also

explains it in a way that I think is

more digestible because MCP is like a

very heady thing to understand. Uh even

if you're into tech, like you have to be

in it to get it. At its highest level, I

think of it as like how apps use LLMs to

talk to each other and to share data

between each other. And it's in the like

pre-netscape era. There's not even like

a browser to see all these servers,

right? But like you have one bunch of

other companies that are embracing have

embracing AI have them. And I'm curious

because you know when we were prepping

for this obviously a big concern with

Figma's like what is competition and AI

and all these companies that are popping

up going to do to Figma uh and like

prompting and all this stuff. And I'm

curious actually to back into that

question like the way you all are

embracing MCP

uh and working with other companies and

really opening Figma up. What does that

say about where you see Figma fitting in

the the value stack so to speak of like

the AI world? Because there's this huge

conversation obviously about like are

you just an app? Are you a foundational

model provider? Are you trying to do

both? Where did the apps sit? And it

seems like you have a POV on that and

you're articulating it already with the

MCP strategy. So I'd love for you to to

maybe like dive into that with us. Yeah,

I mean without going too much into uh

you know all the strategy and future

road map um I think that first of all

the physics of the AI space uh are

there's sort of a gravitational pull

towards being more open and I think it's

important to recognize that and to

follow it. I also think that the goal is

to get you from idea to product. And

yes, we want to give you all the best

tools that you could possibly have in

the Figma platform, but if forever

reason you want to go elsewhere, um, how

do we make it so that you can bring your

context from Figma to other

applications? And also in the future,

how do you come back? Uh, and how do we

have a great loop? And again, I I think

that there's so much partnership we can

do uh with the ecosystem here. And I I

think it's uh there's actually quite a

lot of win-wins even with tools that

people think are our competitors. Uh,

and so it's been nice to have just very

open and friendly conversations with

many of the tools in the space in order

to make it so that we're able to figure

out what can that foundation be so that

your users can have a better experience

and also they can go iterate and uh get

to the point where they are in a high

craft place uh beyond what you might be

able to do in another tool in Figma

afterwards. And so, you know, lots to

come, but uh ICS is a really core part

of our strategy and what we're doing in

the future.

>> So, theoretically, like Lovable, I

think, is a good example of a company

that I think people from the outside or

Figma investors would go the rise of

Lovable maybe suggests Figma has some

competition to worry about. Are you

suggesting that like maybe you would

partner with Lovable and you could bring

Figma assets into something like

Lovable? Maybe we don't have to say

lovable as a specific example, but the

rise of these no code vibe coding tools

like them like you actually see a way to

partner with them. Is that what you're

saying?

>> Exactly. Yeah. I think like um we need

to have a remote MCP that uh with the

right conditions of course but if you've

got a partner who is uh excited to to

work with you then you're able to open

that up to them and that they are able

to use it to create better experiences

for their users and also uh I think that

can be beneficial to us again it's like

context is created in a lot of places

and how do you take that context as

and then use it to to help them in

Figma. And I think that in Figma make um

you know it's I guess the bigger

question is uh how much do we believe in

Figma make and our belief in Figma make

is is very high. Uh we think that what

you can do on the Figma platform in a

connected way and what we can offer

users that are very is very

differentiated in where we're headed.

Um, we're very excited about that and

we're just uh very high conviction and

so I think that also is a contributor to

that whole strategy of being more open

uh is that conviction. I know a lot of

companies get disrupted at the moment

when they start expanding to different

verticals and and this and that. When

you think about slides and buzz and make

and all this other stuff, do you think

of it as kind of serving the whole team

in a way or serving some fundamental use

case as you see it?

>> Yeah. So basically from the start what

we've done when we introduce new

products is we look at Figma design and

go okay what is a use case that we are

seeing in Figma design uh over and over

again at scale but it's underserved

and with that use case um we could

either dive into it and make Figma

design much more complex or we could

create a new surface and Sometimes with

uh for example Fig Jam uh that ends up

being not just a way to create a simpler

experience for people to engage in

whiteboarding brainstorming

diagramming like we saw that spike as a

need during co along with this need of I

want to be in the same place with my

teammates and

open up conversation and make it so that

we're all able to contribute to that

conversation more and Um, by making Fig

Jam its own space, we're able to not

only prevent complexity from occurring

to Figma Design, but also it became a

space where we were able to explore new

concepts like how do you just make it

really fun. And it was actually kind of

an interesting story cuz uh you know

about a month ahead of Fig Jam launching

we had this very strategic conversation

kind of serious ironically uh and the

conversation with my board and with the

team was like okay which way do we want

to differentiate for Fig Jam and my push

and what we ultimately ended up doing

was let's have the differentiator be fun

and the board was like all right let's

Oh, the team

>> boards love fun doing

>> my board likes fun. And uh and my team I

think was a little surprised like this

is our strategy. Okay,

>> let's see how this goes. We did a design

sprint like one day and out of that day

I think 20 ideas came up uh many of

which made it into the product as

fundamental features of Fig Jam and many

of which have spread uh other places as

well like cursor chat came out that day.

And so then as we go and expand the

platform even further does something

like slides or buzz

uh these are examples of okay people are

already doing Figma design we want to

make it so that if you're in a product

process if you're in a product team how

do we give you one connected experience

across all of Figma and how do you go

further through the workflows that

you're already doing and these are

opportunities for us to really support

those workflows those personas uh with

these products Consider

this a formal feature request to add a

hamburger sticker in Fig Jam.

Please send that one to the team.

>> I think you can find it already, but

note it. I'll I'll see if we can make it

more prominent.

>> Really?

>> Oh,

>> okay. I'm going to jump in there.

>> We have a Fig Jam feedback channel on

Slack. I'll be putting that in right

after this.

>> At the very least,

>> that's the ultimate advantage of having

a podcast, right? You get to ask for

features.

>> I mean, at the very least, you can

generate one. So, you've been talking

about building for the kind of latent

demands for product builders. I know

when I was at config, I don't know what

percent of the people were like

illustrators, graphic designers, brand

designers. I feel like those needs are

kind of diverging, right? You know, the

vector people versus the product and

code people. No, you're shaking your

head.

>> I I think that um

yeah, I have a point of view here. Uh, I

think that you look back at the Flash

era

and the web was a more dynamic, more

wild place. I'm not saying the quality

was always like as high as it could be.

>> It was a place that crashed your browser

as well. A and maybe there was some

browser crashing, but also sort of the

range of what was explored, the dynamism

uh and the visual styles that people

were going for.

It was wide ranging in a way that we

don't see today as much because there

was a wild swing back first to

skuomorphism and then eventually to

really Swiss minimalism. we kind of

stayed there for a while and for a few

years now it's felt like okay I think

we're about to swing the opposite

direction again as a reaction and I

think now if you think about AI and this

kind of like average output that you get

and the need to differentiate through

design through craft

um I actually think that something like

illustration that's one example of a way

to do that and there's many more uh but

I actually think that the illustration

needs for brand for product They're only

going up right now.

>> This is my favorite conversation because

Silicon Valley is not usually known for

its fashion sense. I don't know if

you've put together your like iconic

Dell out.

>> Okay. So, uh yeah, I also have my like

ultra blingy config config badge here

today. I don't know if the investors

approve this much bling. Uh but yeah,

Silicon Valley not usually known for it

conversation.

>> Yeah. Yeah. There we go. And you know, a

lot of times you see people on Twitter,

they're like, "Oh my god, skumorphism is

back." It's like, "Wait, no, it's flat

design." And it's like, "Guys, it's just

like fashion. It's gonna be cyclical.

That's how it works.

There's minimalism, maximalism, serif

fonts, no more seraps."

>> I mean, first of all, I have to talk

about our swag. Uh, you can find our

swag store online. Just search for Figma

swag store. But the uh

>> uh but and I I think honestly our brand

team is exceptional and has made amazing

amazing stuff. So definitely check it

out. But

>> yeah, I think that that right now we're

in a world where there's sort of more

micro communities and um more micro sort

of expressions of culture than before.

And this is sort of a perhaps result of

the uh for you I'll go feed uh

experiences that we're seeing on social

media right now because you get to these

little filter bubbles and um the way

that people then engage with them and

kind of develop in-group memes and

whatnot. Uh I think it it ends up

creating you know sort of paralyzed

fashion rather than uh there's one

mainstream and you know everyone in New

York is uh wearing this brand this month

but next month you wear it like you're

kind of like not anymore. Sorry. Instead

it's more like okay well do do you know

what's happening uh in this corner of

the internet right now? And if not like

where were you? Um, and so I think, um,

yeah, I I suspect that in terms of

visual style, we're going to see a range

of expression and just in general,

people are going to be trying to,

uh,

explore a lot of different things. And I

think that's super cool, especially

coming out of this era of Swiss Minimus

where not as much as was explored.

>> So Dylan, we know you're an avid

investor. You just talked about finding

these little niches online. What are you

seeing that's exciting you most right

now?

>> Uh, I think there's just so much

exciting stuff happening in the world

right now. And uh, yeah, I think it's

really important for me to keep focused

on Figma, of course. And so, I mean,

150% 200% of my time is Figma, but um,

yeah, I'm too curious to not always be

trying to learn. And so, I do invest as

well, but I try to keep it pretty

focused at this point. Dylan, I think

most full-time VCs I know would give

their left arm for about 5% of your deal

flow. Um, so the fact that you're doing

this part-time is like amazing. There

was actually a moment a few weeks ago

where browser company, Ellis's former

employer, sold to Atlassian and

>> congrats. You said before, you can't

start recording, but congrats again.

>> Yeah, congrats Ellis. And then, uh,

OpenAI bought Statsig as well. Um, and

you were like a seed investor in both.

And I was seeing jokes on X of like,

man, finally that poor Dylan guy,

finally he like catches a break. Um, and

I'm hearing about you in interesting AI

startups all the time. Like I'll

frequently meet with a founder and I'll

be like, who did your your seed? And it

was like either Dylan or Sam Alman. Um,

and you're actually you led the A for

one of our sponsors of the show, Warp.

Uh, really awesome AI coding

>> uh platform. And um, obviously you are

running Figma. that's your full-time

job. But to me that suggests you are

very um keen to see around the corner

and see what's coming at the early

stage. And I imagine as the founder of a

now public company that gives you kind

of a unique edge of where especially AI

is headed and so I'm curious like when

you're doing this investing I imagine it

actually um acrru to Figma as well in

terms of like your ability to see ahead.

So I'm curious like how does that Yeah.

How does that impact how you run Figma,

the bets you make? Um, and is that a

thing that's just kind of naturally

happened or was that a strategy?

>> Oh, no. I mean, it's a natural result of

I think my curiosity and uh and just the

amazing friends I've gotten to meet

along the way. Um, as well as folks I'

I'm getting to meet now. But yeah, I

think that um

I think there's two categories that help

value acrew to Figma. One is not looking

ahead but uh almost reminding me of

lessons that have already been learned.

Um, you know, there's a lot of times

where I'm talking with a company and I'm

giving advice and uh I'm reminded of a

lesson that we've already learned at

Figma and then something clicks and I'm

like, wait a second, why am I not

applying this to this problem that we

have today? Uh, you know, so it's kind

of wild. uh but whether it's that or

it's like literally learning from you

know live case studies that are going on

in companies that are very different

from Figma uh those are very helpful for

me and then I think that the category of

uh for Figma how to think about around

corners and understand what's happening

I mean there are patterns to the

challenges that AI companies have and um

the ways that they are are pushing

forward and uh in trying to solve

problems that are are hard for everyone.

And I think that definitely

um as I talk with founders that's

helpful to understand but also uh just

in general

you know I just think about AI right now

and I think about design and it's so

early like we're all kind of hyping it

up like this is you know it's the future

of everything and um that's not to say

it's not but I think if you think about

the future of interfaces you think about

what interfaces will look like um and

what the distribution of activity will

be between humans and agents and how

agents will uh show up in interfaces

like I I'm a big believer that it'll be

more of the model where you're um

working alongside agents collaboratively

uh and you're understanding what they're

doing because the trust is not there

around

uh with the current models at least and

I think even models that are in the

future they're going to execute sort of

your desire perfectly and also humans

for better or for worse we hold AI to a

higher standard than we do other humans

and so you actually really want to see

and audit what an agent's doing and I

think that whether it's you know the uh

sort of like how do I understand what

this agent did uh behind the scenes or

it's watching agent real time work or

it's you know you had in your last

episode Marcon uh talking about the new

glasses and the neural band had a chance

to see those before launch a few times

and I mean just the design challenges

these new services have are so exciting

uh and I think it's it unlocks like so

much creativity um and possibility and I

have a lot of respect for that team for

taking that huge bet and executing

against it for so many years. Um, but

then you go to auto sector and the way

that we're going to see innovation there

because everyone's trying to push

forward on digital and how that shows up

in auto. Um, it it's all to me just

extremely exciting about what the role

of a designer is and how you create

context and systems across all these

different environments uh that are

consistent and are understandable to a

user. I think we're almost out of time.

We have to deliver you back to your

company. But, uh, a couple final

questions. One very short and stupid,

one more thoughtful. First one, I'm big

believer that you got to treat yourself

a little bit, you know, to mark a

milestone when you get a win. Did you

treat yourself after the IPO at all?

What color is the Lambo? What can you

tell us? What did you get yourself?

>> Uh, a good night's sleep

>> or just some fro yo.

>> Good night's sleep.

>> Good.

>> Fair. That's fair enough.

>> Last question. Um, everybody and their

mom now wants a line as good as design

is everyone's business, which you did

for the IPO. So, thanks so much for

that. Uh, how how did you all come up

with that? Where did that come from? I I

mean, I think it's really been our core

message all along, you know, whether

it's idea to reality, make design

accessible to all. um this idea that we

can lower the floor, raise the ceiling

like these are ideas around how do you

get more people in the design process

and how do you also elevate the role of

design and I think that in this world

where design is the differential how you

win or lose like design is everyone's

business and I also

was really honored with the IPO I think

this is the thing that stood out the

most to me this opportunity and

privilege to I don't want to say

represent but to show up as part of the

design community and have a moment where

design was going public.

I mean I I think back to the start of

Figma where you know we're looking at

the Bureau of Labor Statistics data and

so there was like 250k designers and the

conversation design community was like

does design have a seat at the table?

How do we get a design a seat at the

table? It's like, okay, I think we're

we're at a place now where not

universally, but in a lot of places,

design has that seat, and we need to

elevate the voice of design more. We

need to show companies how they can win

or lose with design because if they

don't lean in, they will lose. And so,

if you're working at a company as a

designer, like your job is to speak up.

And if you're working at a company that

doesn't value design, either find

another company or figure out how to

make that change. But uh to be there and

to, you know, be able to advocate for

design, that was really meaningful to

me.

>> I know Ellis said that was the last

question. This is actually the last

question. Your

>> I see how it is. Alice,

>> your your Twitter handle, we we meant to

ask this. What does zoink mean? Is that

is that how you say it? Zoink.

>> Zoink.

>> What does that mean? How did you come up

with that? Uh so I tried to uh start um

a uh or create a product in university.

It's kind of like uh I'd say Discordy

somewhat, but not like with a video game

aspect. Some blend between Discord or

Slack. It probably didn't have like

clear enough product point of view. And

uh that was the name for that product.

And then that didn't really go anywhere.

Uh, and so then I just co-opted it and

that became my Twitter handle.

>> Zoink. Follow Zoink.

>> Z K. Thank you so much for having me.

It's great to see you.

>> Thank you for joining us. This was so

much fun.

>> My first time hanging with Zoink. One of

the only Twitter handles that truly

competes with mine and there aren't

many.

>> You can find all my other work at

sources.news and Ellis. People find you

on Twitter, right? Hamburger. You can

find me at hamburger and atme meaning.co

company though my email is on there only

send highquality pitches please. I'm

back in media but I don't want an

overwhelmed inbox. Thank you. A reminder

that we are a new show so please follow,

like subscribe wherever you get your

podcasts. We could really use your

reviews on Apple and Spotify. We are in

video also on YouTube. So please

subscribe there. That will help the show

a lot. Uh, and if you like this, please

just share it with a friend or a

colleague and uh, let them know about

Access and what we're doing. Uh, we're

excited to keep building this with uh,

with everyone.

>> Access is produced in partnership with

the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will

see you next week. Bye.

[Music]

Thanks to Notion for their support of

access. What does Notion and their

notion agents actually do? How about

track beats, sources, open record

requests, and fact check? An agent can

spot conflicting dates, flag missing

citations, and even tea up follow-ups.

And it could also even run the show,

guest research, run of show, edit

checklists, asset library, and delivery.

You could tell agent to prep for

Thursday's taping, and it'll assemble a

brief from notes and links, fill the

rundown template, and ping everyone who

needs to be in the studio. That's

useful. So, yeah, it can do all that and

more, whatever your workflow. See for

yourself and try Notion and agents free

at notion.com/vox.

Support for access comes from warp. Warp

is a topranked coding agent and one of

the fastest growing AI companies.

Trusted by over 700,000 developers and

56% of Fortune 500, Warp is redefining

how software gets built. It understands

your machine stack and codebase,

combining the power of a terminal with

the interactivity of an IDE, giving you

a tight feedback loop with agents to

prompt, review, and ship productionready

code. Find out why developers save an

average of 5 hours a week. Try Warp Free

or Unlock Pro for just $5 at

warp.dev/acess.