Finding Your Purpose, Solved

Drew, I am extremely excited for this episode. I honestly, this is the episode

episode. I honestly, this is the episode I've most been looking forward to since we started this podcast. As you know, I've been writing about purpose my entire career. It's been like a huge

entire career. It's been like a huge focal point of everything I've I've done is like just purpose. Everything comes

back to what your purpose is.

>> Uh oh, we're doing purpose.

[laughter] >> Dude, why don't don't [ __ ] with me here.

I thought we were doing porpus. I've got

60 pages of notes on sea mammals. Mark,

[laughter] >> what the >> I got a whole segment on platypuses.

>> Dude, >> what do we You >> Sorry, Drew. [laughter]

>> You're not a dad. You're not a dad. You

can't be making these jokes. Drew,

[laughter] >> you have to wait till you're a dad.

>> I've been thinking this all week. How

can I work a porpus joke in? And I got it off right away. So, it's out of my proud. It's out of [clears throat] my

proud. It's out of [clears throat] my proud. audience is proud of you. The the

proud. audience is proud of you. The the

the three people who have not turned the podcast off [laughter] are very proud of you right now.

>> Sorry. Sorry. [gasps]

>> Anyway, [laughter] Drew, what do you think the best transition is from porpuses into the Holocaust? [laughter]

Holocaust? [laughter] >> That's on you. That is on you. That's

why you [laughter] make the big bucks.

I've got this whole intro about Victor Frankle surviving Awitz and you're hitting me with sea mammals, [laughter] >> platypuses, I think.

Is it platypi?

>> I don't know.

>> All right. Well, we

>> not even sure. They're not really even we'll get back to everybody on that.

[clears throat] >> Welcome everybody to the Solve Podcast.

uh the most overressearched and overexplained podcast in the world about sea mammals uh as well as the most important

psychological and philosophical topics of our lives. Uh the goal as always with the salt podcast is to go so deep and be so thorough on a single subject that if

you finish this episode, you will never have to read or listen to anything on that subject ever again. It will be solved in your life. And as discussed, today's episode is on purpose. Something

I am very excited about and something that I have been writing about my entire career.

>> Been thinking about it for a long time.

I'm excited for this one, too.

>> Yes, purpose is hugely important in our lives. I think it's it's, you know, I

lives. I think it's it's, you know, I often open these episodes by kind of commenting on whether the topic is overrated or underrated. I would say that these days purpose is probably

properly rated. I think it has become a

properly rated. I think it has become a huge topic on the top of people's minds.

You see tons of content out there around it. Um, lots of books being written

it. Um, lots of books being written about it and I think it's fair. I think

it's welld deserved and uh well needed.

So if I may uh open with my Holocaust story. [laughter]

story. [laughter] >> Excellent seg. Excellent. [gasps]

Uh no, I do want to talk about Victor Frankle because he is in many ways, I think, the uh godfather of of kind of the the popular conception of purpose in

our lives. The importance of finding a

our lives. The importance of finding a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, like some sort of higher calling. um up

until the the 20th century, you know, as we will see once we get into the episode, the the concept of purpose, it it was a very it was mostly religious for the most part for most people. And

then if you were an intellectual or academic um it was a very philosophical question but it it really wasn't until the post-war era with people like Victor Frankle and Jean Paulsart and some of

the existential psychotherapists that came after them um that you start to see uh this idea of purpose purposeful

living finding a life purpose the the importance of living with purpose enter into the mainstream and you know today I would say it's kind

It's just dinner table conversation at this point. It's like h you know what's

this point. It's like h you know what's your purpose? Like what what are you

your purpose? Like what what are you doing that for? Where are you finding meaning these days? Or maybe that's just my dinner table. I don't know. So Victor

Frankle for people who are not aware uh was a psychiatrist born in Vienna, Austria 1905. He studied under both

Austria 1905. He studied under both Sigman Freud and Alfred Adler, probably the two most formative psychologists in

the history of psychology. uh and he was a very promising young academic uh clinician. He was uh very prolific. He

clinician. He was uh very prolific. He

was writing lots of journal articles and doing a lot of interesting research.

But unfortunately he was a Jew in Vienna in the 1940s. And

so the Nazis came in, they caught him and his family and soon he got swept away to Ashwitz. Now he

survived the Holocaust. His entire

family passed away including his pregnant wife. He came out of Ashwitz

pregnant wife. He came out of Ashwitz and then immediately wrote what is maybe in my opinion like one of the best and most important personal development

books ever written, Man's Search for Meaning. Uh it it's part memoir of his

Meaning. Uh it it's part memoir of his experience during the Holocaust and then it is part his theory on what he later called logootherapy. But basically it is

called logootherapy. But basically it is a therapeutic approach through finding meaning in one's life. And this was particularly important or seismic at the

time because up until this point everything was very Freudian or Adleran which Freud argued that uh humans are driven towards pleasure and away from

pain and Alfred Adler argued that people are driven by power and status. Whereas

Frankl said that people are primarily driven by a sense of meaning and purpose in their lives. And his argument came from his time in the concentration camps where he said that over the years he

observed that the people who seem to lose a sense of purpose and meaning in their lives to that they lost a reason to survive were the ones that died next.

This didn't matter how young they were, how fit they were, how uh well adapted they were to the the prison work. um how

sick they were or healthy they were. It

was the ones who gave up, who lost a sense of hope or a reason to carry on that went next. And Frankle himself attributed the only reason that he

survived despite being a little bit older and more frail and uh less physically fit than a lot of the other prisoners. The only reason he survived

prisoners. The only reason he survived is that he decided early on that he did not want to leave his wife a widow. He

didn't know that she had passed away.

Uh, and so he chose to believe that she was she had survived. And that belief that she was surviving and that he had to survive for her is the thing that helped carry him through. There are a

lot of interesting nuggets in that little story that we're going to come back to because it's a great case study for a lot of the stuff that we're going to talk about in this episode uh about what purpose is and and what it means.

So Frankle has this incredible harrowing story that is kind of a backdrop to his philosophy. It's one of those

philosophy. It's one of those philosophies that I think has been so impactful. It's kind of be become the

impactful. It's kind of be become the water that we swim in. Like we don't realize how much of an effect it's had on popular western culture, um the self-help industry and the personal

development industry. Some of his basic

development industry. Some of his basic tenants aside from the will to meaning is that there is an inherent freedom and responsibility in every individual. He

said that even when everything is taken away from you, one retains the last of human freedoms which is the ability to choose one's attitude and reaction to any given circumstance. Uh he talked

about the the responsibility of one's choices, the responsibility of you are choosing what to find meaningful and uh important in your life and therefore

there's a responsibility that comes with that choice in each and every moment. uh

fans of my work or this is going to sound very familiar.

And then of course suffering is inevitable. Every single one of us

inevitable. Every single one of us suffers throughout our lives. Every

single one of us deals with hardship, deals with tragedy, deals with trauma.

But we all have an opportunity to find meaning in the suffering to find purpose in the suffering. And it is that ability to find purpose in our suffering and our

sacrifice that gives us a sense of meaning and importance in our lives. He

often quoted Nietz who we'll also be talking about quite a bit in this episode. Uh Nichzche's famous maxim he

episode. Uh Nichzche's famous maxim he said those who have a why to live can bear almost any how. Victor Frankle also argued that when people lack meaning they experience what he called an

existential vacuum which is a sense of emptiness and apathy that uh is comes with a lack of direction or a lack of clarity of what matters. Um I think

everybody has probably experienced this at one point or another in their lives.

Um you see it a lot with you know say university students who graduate and they don't know what to do next. there's

it's they have all these opportunities in front of them, but it's not clear which one's worth pursuing or which one's worth taking. And so, they just feel this kind of dread and emptiness and and confusion over what to do and

and what is really like a very high quality life problem. Uh you see this a lot in midlife crisis. Uh you know, the people who get the good job and have the nice career and they buy their first

house and they get to 40 and they look around and they're like, "Oh [ __ ] is this it? [laughter]

this it? [laughter] this wait this is what I've been chasing this whole time. You see it a lot too when people um reach a a level of of financial security for the first time.

You know it's like you when you go through your entire life and every major decision that you're making is for money to pay rent to buy food. The moment you

get to the point where you don't have to be motivated by by that anymore, it can actually be a very distressful time because you don't know what to care about or what to what to pursue, what

your purpose is anymore. So this

existential vacuum, the important thing about it is that when we experience it, we tend to assume that something is wrong with us, that we're lost or

confused or or or broken in some way.

But the truth is is that the existential vacuum precedes growth. It means that you are if you are experiencing an existential vacuum, if you're experiencing a lack of purpose in your

life, that is because you are in a moment where your psychology is nudging you towards becoming something else. It

means it's time to change yourself and transform into some new version of yourself, some greater version of yourself. Now, Frankle made the very

yourself. Now, Frankle made the very astute point that modern life seemed to exacerbate existential vacuums in people. It seemed

to make it easier and more likely for people to experience existential vacuums. Uh, and I would argue that that has only become more common in the last 20 or 30 years. Uh, we'll talk quite a

bit about that later in the episode as well. You know, Frankle's school of

well. You know, Frankle's school of thought, logootherapy, it hasn't really stuck around as a modality. like you

don't really like you can't get on Psychology Today and go find a logo therapist. Like it's just not really a

therapist. Like it's just not really a thing. But it's it's interesting how

thing. But it's it's interesting how much his ideas have permeated the culture, how much it's permeated um uh

uh self-help and, you know, pop culture in general. It's had a just an outsized

in general. It's had a just an outsized effect on everybody. And I think the fact that people like us can make a podcast about purpose and

millions of people will tune into it is just a testament to the fact that like this is such an inherent and important part of our lived experience and and

everything that we care about. I mean in many ways it is at the core of what we do with our time here on Earth. Uh so it

it it's hard to think of anything that is is more primary than talking about finding purpose in one's life. So here

at the outset of the episode, I think the most important takeaway is just that purpose, it's not optional. Like you you have to have something in your life that you're working towards. You have to, as

I say in my work, you have to give a [ __ ] about something. You have to care about something. You have to find

about something. You have to find something that's important. It's it's a psychological need that is just as important uh if not more important than things like love or pleasure or

happiness or or life satisfaction. Now

in this episode we are going to get into the nitty-gritty of both the philosophical history of purpose of finding purpose in one's life which is

very deep and quite complex. And I I had a lot of fun nerding out to this and revisiting some old philosopher friends that I had not read in a long time. And

there's also quite a bit of psychological research on this as well, which we're going to get into. Uh and of course, we're going to talk about how to find purpose, whether even the the the

verb find is the correct verb in terms of increasing the amount of purpose that you experience in your life. uh the

importance of purpose, how purpose changes and evolves throughout your life, and uh and of course all of the potential pitfalls and setbacks. As we

go, we're going to destroy a lot of the common myths and cliches that arise around purpose. No, you don't find your

around purpose. No, you don't find your purpose out there as if it's like under a rock or something. I think a lot of people miss that you can have many purposes in your life. It's not like you

have one single calling that you have to pursue no matter what. The truth is is that many things can add a lot of meaning and value to your life and those things will change as well. There are

certain things that provide a lot of purpose say when you're young that they stop feeling important or useful when you're old and vice versa. We will also talk about the hidden downsides of

purpose which I'm really excited about this because I this is definitely something that nobody talks about.

>> Nobody >> nobody there are actual real costs and side effects to purpose. there are many forms of purpose can actually be destructive in some ways can be

antisocial in many ways uh can even be unhealthy psychologically speaking so I'm I'm very excited to dig into that um and then of course more importantly uh

we are going to talk about the existential vacuum I I would I would say the existential vacuum these days most people would kind of consider it like a

mild depression or a a kind of a generalized anxiety about life. Uh but

it's it's basically that feeling of like not knowing what matters and not knowing what to do with oneself. So the front end of this episode as usual is going to

be dedicated to just getting a very deep understanding uh on the topic what what's the philosophical lineage of meaning and purpose in life. What is the

psychological research and literature on finding purpose in one's life? And then

of course, what are some of the uh biological or neurological manifestations of this topic? And then

in the back half of the episode, we're going to get into all the practical how to nitty-gritty five-step process. You know, how do you

five-step process. You know, how do you live with more purpose in your life? How

do you live with a greater sense of meaning and feel like you are spending your time well? Because ultimately,

that's what it comes down to. Are you

spending your time well? And of course, I have a huge announcement in this episode, which I'm not going to spoil quite yet, but there is a lot of

exciting stuff that's been going on behind the scenes. A lot of my purpose in life [laughter] from the past year. Uh I'm going to be

sharing with listeners. And so stay tuned to that because it is it's an exciting announcement, but it's also I'll be I'll be transparent. It's a

little bit complicated as important purposeful things often are. So, we'll

be talking about that. And then finally, as always, if you want a companion PDF guide for this episode, if you want to follow along, see a summary of all the things that we talk about, all the notes

that we go into, uh, you can download it for free at solvepodcast.com/purpose.

You can check our work, you can get all all of our citations, book recommendations, all of that stuff is in there. It is absolutely free. So, please

there. It is absolutely free. So, please

don't feel like you're trying to drink out of a fire hose. If you want to take this piece by piece and follow along at your own pace, that is available to you.

Anything else before we jump into it, Mr. Drew Bernie?

>> I can't follow that up. I think that's that you set it up really well. Let's do

this. Yeah.

>> No. Um, no porpus.

>> I'm I'm excited [clears throat] to talk about sea mammals. [laughter]

>> How long can a porpus hold its breath?

You know, >> I I don't know that. No,

>> you didn't research. You did not research a goddamn thing. [laughter]

>> All right, Drew. So, purpose is a very abstract thing and I think we we often confuse it with other terms. It it's all very like lofty and kind of head in the

clouds type of type of thing. Uh so, how do we define purpose? Like what what are what's the ground level here that we can start working off of? um before we dive deeper into the episode.

>> Yeah, sure. So, you're absolutely right.

Purpose is very abstract. It's talked

about in very vague terms. Um there's a billion dollar self-help industry around finding your purpose. There's

commencement speeches, TED talks. All of

them kind of like push us all to oh, go find your calling or or the one true purpose you have in life and it gets conflated with all these other terms that we'll talk about and that leads to

a state of confusion. So, if we want to get into some of the definitional stuff, first what I want to do is kind of talk about like the deeper structure of purpose. Yeah.

purpose. Yeah.

>> And that kind of there's three parts to it. Um, one of them is a direction. Like

it. Um, one of them is a direction. Like

you have it's it points you in kind of a longer term mindset and orientation. So,

you have a direction that's associated with your purpose. You kind of know the direction you want to move in. You might

not know exactly the next step you need to take or exactly all the specifics, but you're like, I generally am going to go in this direction, right? Uh purpose

helps you figure that out.

>> It's very active though, too. So,

there's an action element to it.

>> Purpose is um it's not really it's not necessarily motivation itself, but it it can feed into your motivation. So,

there's like an active verb tense of of your purpose, >> right? So, there's no you can't have a

>> right? So, there's no you can't have a sense of purpose just sitting on the couch thinking about stuff.

>> Exactly.

>> You have to be doing things. It's super

super active. Not only do you not only do you um live out your purpose through action obviously, but you also figure it out through action as well as we're going to see a whole bunch. So there's a

very active element to it.

>> Um the third element is a a an element of contribution or personal significance. Okay. So

significance. Okay. So

>> your purpose generally feels like you're you're contributing in some way whether that's to immediately the people around you, greater society, the world, the universe, whatever. it has some sort of

universe, whatever. it has some sort of personal significance and contribution element to it. Okay. So, that's kind of like the deeper structure of it. Um to

start making it a little bit more concrete. Yeah. Okay.

concrete. Yeah. Okay.

>> I feel like the the importance piece or the significance piece is like the complicated one.

>> Complicated one. Yeah.

>> Because it's it's the directional piece.

I think that's kind of just being able to imagine >> some future that you want that's different than the present. Right. So,

it's just some towards it.

>> Yeah. something that you'd be happy if if things were like that. And then the action obviously is that you were actively participating in creating that future. But so many of us spend so much

future. But so many of us spend so much time actively participating in creating a future that we don't really give a [ __ ] about.

>> And that's where I feel like most people get lost. They're like, "What is worth

get lost. They're like, "What is worth giving a [ __ ] a [ __ ] about? What is

worth giving a [ __ ] about? What is worth actually going through the trouble to to pursue?" Yeah, that's that's huge. And

pursue?" Yeah, that's that's huge. And

before we get into what purpose isn't, like let's just lay it out that it's purpose, like you said, this is going to be really hard to to figure out what the right verb is here, but it's not necessarily found.

>> It it maybe it's built, maybe it's discovered, maybe it's I I don't know exactly what it is, but the whole finding your purpose thing, I think that also throws us off quite a bit as we'll

see. Okay.

see. Okay.

>> Yeah. So let's just put a pin in that and let's get into some of what purpose isn't. Okay. What is purpose? What

isn't. Okay. What is purpose? What

purpose is not?

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

>> Given that uh deep structure that we went through the direction, the action, the contribution/personal significance.

>> Um we can distinguish purpose from a few different things such as purpose is not passion. Okay, this one I think people

passion. Okay, this one I think people get confused about a lot. They're like

if if whatever I'm passionate about that should be my purpose. I'm passionate

about X or Y and that's that's my purpose in life. I'm passionate about music or >> art or you know accounting whatever it is and they're like that's my purpose in life.

>> They're not the same thing. Passion is

kind of like this emotional state that we have. And yes, it's it's great. Don't

we have. And yes, it's it's great. Don't

get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with passion and being passionate about something and using that >> uh to pursue purpose, but it's not the same thing as purpose. Yeah.

>> Purpose is more, like I said, it's the directional, the scaffolding, the architecture.

uh by which you live your life and live out your purpose through this architecture uh that you've built. The

passion on the other side is like this could be a fleeting emotional state and you don't want to build your purpose on that.

>> Yeah. I feel like I feel like passion is is probably necessary but not sufficient. Like you need Yes.

sufficient. Like you need Yes.

>> The purpose is like the intellectual component and then the passion is the emotional component.

>> Yeah. So it gives you the framework for I experience no purpose in playing video games. It's it's just something fun that

games. It's it's just something fun that I really really enjoy doing. Um so so yeah it's that meaning comp it's that significance component again.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Absolutely.

>> Um purpose is not purpose is not meaning.

>> Okay. [laughter]

>> Okay.

>> Um it's very much related. It's a part of meaning.

>> Meaning psychologists usually use meaning though as kind of an umbrella term.

>> Yeah.

>> That includes purpose as part of its as one of the components. Right. Purpose is

kind of like what's what are the goals and the actions and the direction of my life. Right. But then there's also that

life. Right. But then there's also that sense of significance. Yeah.

>> Uh that you know does your life and the the things you're doing does that have inherent meaning to it? And then kind of coherence. Can you tell the story around

coherence. Can you tell the story around it? That that gives our lives meaning.

it? That that gives our lives meaning.

So if you have a story that you can tell that seems personally significant and there's a like a an underlying purpose to it, that's meaning. Yeah.

>> So don't confuse those two things. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And then finally, very very relevant to this podcast is that purpose is not the same thing as values.

>> They're very related. They inform one another. Um, they're very important,

another. Um, they're very important, both very, very important to living a fulfilled life, but they're not the same thing, right? Values are kind of like

thing, right? Values are kind of like what we find good, right? Worthy of our attention right?

>> Um, >> we did a whole episode on values again, so go back and go back and check it out.

>> Check that one out. It's the first episode of the Solve podcast for a reason. It's very, very foundational.

reason. It's very, very foundational.

It's just not the same thing as purpose.

um you know you you can't you can't really achieve a value. Your value is just kind of with you throughout your life and it's something you you aspire to, right? Whereas your purpose again it

to, right? Whereas your purpose again it gives you it gives your life uh direction and it might just be for a shorter period of time whereas your values are more enduring. Yeah.

>> For the most part.

>> So it's like the value would be creativity. You never achieve

creativity. You never achieve creativity. There's always there's

creativity. There's always there's always more creativity to be had.

Whereas your purpose might be to um spend your life creating art. Um you

know it's something that is definable, achievable, something that you can look at, you can measure, you can look back and be like that happened or that didn't happen.

>> Whereas creativity it's like well who's to say what's creative and what's not or it's much more it's like a principle right that you >> Yeah. And creativity can be achieved

>> Yeah. And creativity can be achieved through many many different >> Yes.

>> purposes through many different routes.

Right. Right. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I

think there's just a there's a lot of confusion. People when they when they

confusion. People when they when they mix those things up, especially the passion one and I I think the values, too. You mix those things up, you get a

too. You mix those things up, you get a little bit confused and you're like, that's when you're oh, if if I'm not passionate about this thing one day, >> and it must not be my purpose, so I'm out. Right? And it's no, you need to be

out. Right? And it's no, you need to be able to distinguish between those two and kind of um um use them in the correct way that they're they're supposed to be used in order to achieve

those outcomes. And that's a good point.

those outcomes. And that's a good point.

I mean, we're going to come back to this a little bit later, but >> I think passion is something that should always feel good or for the most part, it should usually feel good. Like you're

doing it because you just >> intrinsically enjoy it and are motivated to do it. Whereas purpose, as we will discover, by definition,

>> requires some degree of struggle and sacrifice. Like things kind of need to

sacrifice. Like things kind of need to suck to to feel for something to feel purposeful, >> right? And that's usually the problem

>> right? And that's usually the problem where people get >> Yes.

>> people get caught up because they're feels bad. It's not my passion,

feels bad. It's not my passion, therefore it's not my purpose. And no,

they're two different things. Two very

different things. Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Relatedly then, let's go over a few of the myths and misconceptions, which I'm sure these are going to come up and more will come up throughout the episode, but some of the big ones right off the bat.

Um the the first one I want to talk about the one big purpose myth. Like we all somehow have one big purpose in our lives that we're supposed to go out and find discover

>> build, whatever, right?

>> Um and if we don't, then there's something wrong with us. Like it's just you're lazy because you haven't gone out and found your purpose. You are stupid because you haven't thought about it enough. You're not introspective enough.

enough. You're not introspective enough.

Whatever it is, you haven't experimented enough. You haven't taken enough risk to

enough. You haven't taken enough risk to figure out what your purpose is. all of

that. The one big purpose myth um this I mean this is is it can get pretty toxic as well because again if you don't feel like you have that you feel like there's something wrong with you.

>> Yeah. when actually there's like anything can be a purpose in your life and not only that but sometimes like as we'll see I think purpose can be dictated by things that are outside of

your control at sometimes too >> right and so >> uh it's it's definitely and we're going to get into the how it changes over the lifespan and everything like that but purpose is dynamic it changes it changes

based on your circumstances based on your your personality based on your life stage based on all of these different things and so I don't I feel like I've changed my life purpose at least a couple of times in my life and I'm okay

with that now too.

>> I feel like I feel like the one big purpose thing is it's kind of like um people who marry their uh >> high school sweetheart like they marry the first person they date and then they stay together for 70 years like it it yes it happens.

>> Mh.

>> But for most of us it's going to be a messy complicated like multi-deade path [laughter] to and we're going to go through multiple relationships. We're

going to go through multiple purposes.

uh you know, we're gonna have breakups and divorces and change our mind and and and >> it it's >> that's that's the norm. The it's the [clears throat] the one true purpose for life is is actually the exception,

>> right? Related to the one big purpose

>> right? Related to the one big purpose myth though, too, is like if you don't have a purpose, you don't have a clearly defined purpose, you're somehow behind, you're somehow defunct, you're somehow there's you're you're flawed in some

way. And it's like

way. And it's like I don't know like I think the whole idea of purpose it's a very >> it's it's somewhat of a human invention to some degree right like um I think you

said this in one of the articles you wrote one time too. It's like you're you you can't like maybe you were put on this earth to be a a drummer, but the drum hasn't been invented yet or, you know, a guitarist or whatever, but the

drum like if you were born in the in the prehistoric times and there was no drums or guitars around, whoa, you missed your missed your purpose and >> like the idea of it makes absolutely no

sense right?

>> Last one. This one this one I think is going to hit a chord with a lot of people. the myth of finding my purpose

people. the myth of finding my purpose will fix everything.

>> If I only knew my purpose, then I would have this bottomless well of motivation.

If I only knew my purpose, I would be >> rich and famous and attractive, right?

Because I would just have that bottomless well of of uh motivation and I would work towards my goals non-stop 24/7. I would moment I woke up to the

24/7. I would moment I woke up to the moment I my head hit the pillow, right?

Mhm.

>> Um it will it will fix all of the pain and suffering in my life. And as you've already mentioned, no, actually having a strong sense of purpose is probably going to subject you to more pain and suffering in your life.

>> Yeah. It's just going to make pain and suffering meaningful, which is Yeah. I

think I think this is the the delusion that happens when people are stuck in that existential vacuum.

>> They think like, well, if I can just find something meaningful or if I can find a purpose, I'll get out of this and I won't suffer anymore. And it's like, no, no, no, no. You're still going to suffer. [laughter]

suffer. [laughter] It's just it's just that suffering is going to feel worthwhile and that's what changes. I I want to throw I want to

changes. I I want to throw I want to throw a myth onto this list is um is that >> you have to your your purpose has to be your job.

>> I see this a lot with a lot of people who are like, >> I have a job. It's fine. I like it, >> but it doesn't feel very meaningful.

Like it's not my purpose. And so like I should I quit my career? And I I think this is this is something that is is very unrealistic for a lot of people.

>> You can have a great life and find purpose outside of your vocation. Like

[clears throat] you you don't have to be >> in love or passionate about everything you do all the time. Like you can have you can find purpose in a lot of different areas of life, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have a

>> right? Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have a whole segment on work and purpose and you know >> if you can if you have to find it there, if you don't.

>> Yeah.

>> We'll get into that. But I think that's a really good one to flag right away. Um

especially I don't know with our generation, we went wild with that one.

It was like no work has to be meaningful and purposeful. And

and purposeful. And >> you know what's interesting? So I I actually I pulled some survey data on on purpose.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And they found in terms of the generations, they found that millennials were the most preoccupied about it.

>> Does not surprise me.

>> Yeah. Like it's it's Gen Z is is a little bit more >> blasze about it. Uh similar to >> Oh, really? I haven't seen that. Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. similar to to Gen X and and uh baby boomers, but like it you basically see this trend of like baby boomers like don't really think about it a whole lot. Gen X thinks about it a little. Millennials thought about it a

little. Millennials thought about it a ton.

>> That was all we thought about. Yeah.

>> And then Gen Z is kind of back to like eh.

>> Yeah.

>> Whatever.

>> Yeah. I saw some of those research numbers too. something like depending on

numbers too. something like depending on the survey, it was anywhere from like 60 to 75% of the survey showed that millennials said they would give up uh more money for a job that felt

purposeful and meaningful to them, which was Yeah, that was a big generational shift from from previously. I didn't

know about the Gen Z's.

>> Yeah, the Gen Z is coming back the other way. Uh which is interesting. So, just a

way. Uh which is interesting. So, just a quick few numbers I'll throw out there.

Um so the majority of Americans 57% uh asked themselves how can I find more purpose and meaning in my life uh on at least a monthly basis about 40% of them said that they they asked themselves uh

on a at least a weekly basis. This is up quite a bit from 2011 from like 10 or 15 years ago. So it's this question is

years ago. So it's this question is becoming more salient and important in people's lives. Uh 81% of Americans

people's lives. Uh 81% of Americans believe that there is an ultimate purpose and plan for their life, which is interesting. You could maybe conrue

is interesting. You could maybe conrue that as a belief in in the one true purpose.

>> Wow.

>> More than two in three Americans, 68% say that a major priority of their life is finding their purpose. Here's the

super interesting part. As Americans

consider finding purpose, most believe that they have actually found it. 59%

say that they have found some degree of higher purpose in their life with 28% saying that they have they've found none. What's super fascinating is that

none. What's super fascinating is that when you break this out by religion, >> it is all the religious people saying they found it and it's secular people by and large struggle with it a lot more.

>> Interesting.

>> Which uh paging Friedrich Nichze, we will be coming back to that.

>> That's right. [laughter]

Yeah. [snorts] Okay. So, we have all of that. So kind of the working definition

that. So kind of the working definition I want to go off of anyway and we maybe we changed this a little bit throughout but >> one I came up with uh for what is purpose?

>> It is a dynamic values aligned other impacting life aim that organizes your goals and actions across time. Okay

that's not too bad right?

>> Yeah you could definitely be more jargony than that. So yeah, not bad. It

would not >> impacting. That would be weird.

>> impacting. That would be weird.

[laughter] But I was like, nah, that's okay.

>> Would not get accepted to an academic journal. It's way too readable for that.

journal. It's way too readable for that.

But it's uh >> but it's it's it's dynamic like we've already mentioned. It can change over

already mentioned. It can change over time.

>> Changes. Yeah.

>> It's values aligned. It's informed by your values. Okay.

your values. Okay.

>> Other impacting that's the personal significance contribution side. Y.

>> Okay. Um and it organizes your goals and actions over time. Yeah. Okay. Across

time. builds that coherence that you have a story of your life um in an impactful way that that you think is um um personally significant or important in some way.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> I like that.

>> That's a good one.

>> Again, I keep coming back to like in my head I just keep coming back to the word mission. It's like what's your life's

mission. It's like what's your life's mission?

>> Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] to be as less even [laughter] even less jargony than that just >> I mean that's probably an oversimplification but it it's um >> there's all sorts of connotations with that though that I think you're right

really do capture like the essence of what a purpose really is mission in your life there's action there's >> yeah and like and without going diverting too far down the the

linguistic rabbit hole of like why finding the the term finding your purpose is like so misleading for so many people I just think like life's mission is actually >> that kind of nails it to a greater

extent.

>> You know, Robert Green even calls it your life's task, which I kind of like that's even more specific, right?

>> Yeah. Which can change over time, too.

Maybe you have a task at one point in your life that needs to be taken care of and then the next task and the next task and even more >> Yeah.

>> clinical almost, but yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Anyway, we'll we'll we'll Okay, we'll dig further into that.

>> Okay. Um All right. Before we get going then, so let's say you you do start to get some of this figured out. What are

some of the benefits in your in your life that you might get out of having a clearer sense of purpose? Yeah.

>> Okay.

>> More chicks.

>> More chicks is definitely number [laughter] >> there might be something to that actually. Um

actually. Um >> yeah, actually [laughter] >> um let's start though with the uh the health benefits. Okay.

health benefits. Okay.

>> Okay. [laughter] Um there there are a number of studies that show if you have like a clear sense of like purpose and meaning in your life, you live longer.

Okay, that that's could almost be like all the other episodes we've done on uh kind of health, any any health component, [clears throat] it always comes down to Yeah. Okay. Having

>> a sense of purpose and a sense of meaning and and relationships with others.

>> And don't take our word for it. Go read

Victor Frankle and his his account of surviving Awitz. like in his opinion a

surviving Awitz. like in his opinion a sense of purpose was like the top factor on on the people who survived and the people who did.

>> And one of the kind of interesting those things though that came up with this was that when you have a clear sense of purpose they they tend to influence health behaviors is what it is. So

that's one of the mechanisms by which you live longer. So when you have a clear sense of purpose like >> I you get better sleep at night. I

>> this totally makes sense to me by the way because I I personally found >> when when I have a large degree of purpose in my life >> I start thinking about my health in a different way because that

>> my health becomes part of the mission right so it's like if I'm going out and drinking all the time and I'm like sleeping like [ __ ] and not taking care of myself >> and yeah >> I'm less effective to accomplish my purpose

>> and and because there's a moral component and a value component of purpose it's not just like a New Year's resolution. Uh it feels like I'm doing

resolution. Uh it feels like I'm doing something not unethical, but it's like I'm failing in some like very profound way.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, whereas like if I just have this goal of like lose 20 pounds and I [ __ ] up and eat a bunch of Doritos, I'm kind of like h whatever. But it's like if I have like

>> a [ __ ] purpose, a sense of purpose that I need to be healthy for, um it can be it can be very powerful. It's funny.

Um, I went on this marketing podcaster named Chris Doe and um, and I did I went on his show and he and I were talking about this and he was asking me, he was like he was like, "I'm never motivated

to work out, but I never miss a day at the gym. Why?" And he he was kind of

the gym. Why?" And he he was kind of challenging me like as if as if he was going to prove me wrong or something.

He's like, "I hate working out. I'm not

passionate about fitness, yet I never miss a week." And so then I asked him, I said, "Well, why do you keep going?" And

he said, 'Well, all the men in my family died early. I have three little kids. I

died early. I have three little kids. I

don't want to die before they're grown up. And I'm like,

up. And I'm like, >> ding, ding, ding.

>> There you go.

>> You're purpose driven. Of course, you don't miss a day.

>> You actually give a [ __ ] >> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Yeah. [laughter] >> You actually give more of a [ __ ] than a lot of the like vain meattheads that are there to like get their biceps bigger or whatever.

>> I heard a similar story recently to um somebody in their 60s. It was an article that I'd read uh that they decided to finally they'd never worked out in their life like not regularly anyway. You

know, they go on walks here and there, whatever. But in their mid60s, they they

whatever. But in their mid60s, they they started to >> eat right, get better sleep, >> work out. It's because they had grandkids. Like, I want to be here for

grandkids. Like, I want to be here for another 20 years. I'm like, I want to see my grandkids go to college.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, and and they were on a path that was not going to be. And like,

yeah, I don't like working out. No, I

don't like any of this. But that there was just something something more important.

>> It makes it doesn't get rid of the suffering. It makes it worthwhile.

suffering. It makes it worthwhile.

>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. There's also just a couple other things too. Um some

biological regulation around this for longevity as well. Uh it lowers systematic inflammation.

>> Um there kind of some of the immune markers that they found. Anyway, they

found um just a better uh better profile with those. Your cortisol rhythms are

with those. Your cortisol rhythms are better regulated. Again, I think that's

better regulated. Again, I think that's a lot of the health behaviors. You sleep

better, you eat better, all of I'd be curious if there's if that's just correlation.

>> Yeah, I'm I'm sure it is honestly. But

yeah, there is definitely it kind of rewires your stress response too. You're

less reactive and more uh uh responsive to stress uh in in a more adaptive way as well. Um that's probably part of that

as well. Um that's probably part of that is probably physological, part of it psychological and some um probably uh birectional causation there as well.

[clears throat] >> Um purpose and resilience though, that's the next one. Um having a strong sense of purpose strengthens what psychologists call a reappraisal loop.

Okay. Again it's kind of like uh what what we just mentioned. If you you have a purpose, you have a goal in mind then all the struggles and everything are immediately reframed with that purpose

in mind. So that's the kind of the

in mind. So that's the kind of the mechanism by which it that occurs. Okay.

>> Right.

>> Because we've talked about cognitive reappraisal [clears throat] so many episodes. It's cornerstone of CBT. It's

episodes. It's cornerstone of CBT. It's

very much the cornerstone of stoicism.

Um, and it is very very important for mental health. It makes sense that

mental health. It makes sense that purpose supplies that reappraisal. Like I can see how it can make it easier because when you have a let's say you hit a

challenge or an obstacle in your life, >> if there's no overarching purpose for what you're pursuing, it becomes very hard to create coherence or meaning

around that obstacle. It just feels like >> the universe just threw a bunch of a roadblock in your path, >> right?

>> And you're just like, well, [ __ ] I guess there's nothing I can do. Whereas,

if there's some sort of higher purpose, you can it it gives you a structure again, that framework, that architecture to uh create a narrative where that

obstacle is like part of the journey itself. And that's like a very abstract

itself. And that's like a very abstract and philosophical way, but >> so yes, I I think that's right. I think

um you know that saying when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Yes.

>> It's usually in kind of a negative connotation. You're like, "Oh, it's it's

connotation. You're like, "Oh, it's it's cognitive bias and you just see everything as is one type of problem and you try to solve it with the solution you think you have."

>> I think this is like the healthy version of that. When you have a clear purpose,

of that. When you have a clear purpose, >> um then when the nails do pop up and the chaos does pop up, you have that framework. Yeah. Like we talked that

framework. Yeah. Like we talked that purpose is your framework. It's that

cognitive architecture >> um for dealing with the chaos of life.

Yes.

>> Right. And so that is a very resilient mindset to to take on.

>> Yeah. It it gives you it gives you raw material to reframe everything as in your favor. Right. So it's like

your favor. Right. So it's like >> it's like oh uh flight got delayed.

Good. I can get more prepared for the business event that I'm going to. I can

do more research on who's going to be there. Um, another health benefit or

there. Um, another health benefit or another benefit in general is uh having clear sense of purpose uh leads to better cognitive functions even too.

>> This one's kind of interesting. Um,

we'll get into a little bit of the neuroscience of it here in a little bit, but it's it's not just kind of emotional, it's also that cognitive scaffolding that we've been talking

about. So, studies show that um higher

about. So, studies show that um higher purpose predicts better executive functioning and memory, too. M

>> I think a lot of it honestly is that you just have lower cognitive load when you have that clarity like that sense of clarity. Um it it doesn't it doesn't

clarity. Um it it doesn't it doesn't require that your mind's all over the place. You're a little more focused.

place. You're a little more focused.

You're you're you you have your boundaries set.

>> You know what to tune out. You know what to focus on. Exactly. You know what matters. You know what doesn't

matters. You know what doesn't neuroscientists they they call this coherence goal coherence in specific in this this case. But um it you know purpose is kind of like this mental

organizing schema uh that you have this framework that you have and it just it lightens kind of all the distractions and the chaos and everything and again it's it's a filter >> for you to to to to filter all the noise

out. Yeah.

out. Yeah.

>> So it just you you're you're better cognitively functioning executive functioning memory all of that kind of stuff which I thought that was I don't know I thought that was kind of interesting from that performance as well purpose and performance. So like

creativity, engagement, you're just going to be more engaged in your work.

You're going to be more creative. You're

going to have more energy if you have a clear sense of purpose and you know what you're doing um for that purpose.

Employees who find a lot of purpose in their work, they're more productive.

They're they're happier with their jobs, all of that. It's not the only again it's not the only source of of meaning and purpose that you can have from your work, but this is one benefit you might

experience by finding purpose. And the

last one, um, purpose and morality.

>> I think a lot of this actually comes from more from like social connection though. When you when you find purpose,

though. When you when you find purpose, it's kind of infectious and and people gravitate towards you or you want to engage with more people. When you have this, especially it makes you more social, but it also makes you more

empathetic.

um pro-so you're more pro-social when you when you when you do have that kind of like deep purpose. Yeah. That has

that sense of significance and coherence around it uh and the people around you and not only that but like you know your your brain circuits the reward circuitry in your brain is are more active

generally and it's usually has a social component as we'll see there's a lot of overlap with purpose and and sociality.

Y >> um and I it just makes you like a better more social person as opposed to like an asocial [ __ ] who's like [ __ ] the world like you know

>> I'm going to just hermit down in here.

So those are kind of like the five big categories anyway of benefits of purpose that you might see if you can get some more clarity around all of this.

>> It's funny because you know half of those are a little bit counterintuitive or or you wouldn't assume at first glance. I think I think most people are

glance. I think I think most people are familiar with like the the improvement for resilience and um the improvement for motivation and and productivity like purpose is obviously good in all those

cases. But

cases. But >> yeah, the the pro-sociality before I did the research for this episode, I might have found that surprising, but when we get into the

philosophy, I actually don't think that's surprising.

>> Um and then the health stuff is just interesting. I think it's I feel like

interesting. I think it's I feel like the health habits are like a downstream effect of just having >> 100% a mission.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just oh you find your purpose and all of a sudden you're healthy. No, it's that it

you're healthy. No, it's that it influences all the health behaviors in your life. So yeah, but that again

your life. So yeah, but that again that's a part of >> purpose is very actionoriented. You live

it all out and the way you live it out permeates like everything in your life if you can [music] really get this nailed anyway.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So in the previous section you talked about the the three elements of purpose which is direction, action and significance. We talked about how

significance. We talked about how direction and action are kind of the simpler parts of that equation. Right?

It's direction. It's like do I know which way I should be working towards like what I should be looking at what [clears throat] I should be paying attention to. Action is am I actually

attention to. Action is am I actually doing things? Am I moving towards it?

doing things? Am I moving towards it?

And then significance. Significance is

the complicated one. Like what is significance? like what how do we know

significance? like what how do we know if something's important or not? How do

we know if it's going to be meaningful?

How do we know if it's worth our time and energy? And that's what I want to

and energy? And that's what I want to really dig deep into in in this section because [clears throat] a that's what philosophers have been wrestling with

for 2,000 3,000 years. And b I think it's it's if you solve that the action and direction pieces actually become fairly straightforward and easy. This is

going to be a solved first. I'm I'm very excited about this. So, longtime

listeners know that literally every solved episode up until now, early in the episode, we start with Aristotle and we're like, "God damn, Aristotle got it right."

right." >> Right.

>> Once again, Aristotle, whether it's happiness friendship uh procrastination, values, pretty much every single time, Aristotle nailed it on the head.

[clears throat] I am happy to report that this is the first time Aristotle did not nail it.

>> Oh, really?

>> This is Yes, we're gonna see. Are you

sure?

>> I am positive. [laughter] I am positive.

And I have about 500 years worth of enlightenment figures backing me up. So,

uh it's it's I'm skeptical >> this we're going to go on a little bit of a philosophical voyage here uh as we discuss life purpose and and life meaning. Um, and it's gonna start with

meaning. Um, and it's gonna start with Aristotle, but we will eventually see that he was only partially correct. He

got he got a piece of the equation. He

did not get the entire equation.

>> Okay. All right.

>> So, I'm I'm I'm excited about this.

[snorts] It's about [ __ ] time [laughter] >> that he didn't get something right.

>> Let's see. I'm skeptical. Let's see.

Let's see. So Aristotle

I think he he did introduce the way that philosophers at least western philosophers have always thought about purpose and meaning in your life which

he had this concept that he called taos and taos was uh the ancient in ancient Greek it it meant like the ultimate end or the ultimate aim of something. So in

the Nikomachian ethics, Aristotle wrote, he said, "Every art, every inquiry, every action and choice seems to aim at some good, hence the good has rightly been declared to be that at which all

things aim." That is not the cleanest

things aim." That is not the cleanest pros I've ever read on this podcast. But

uh for anybody who has actually struggled through the Nikomian ethics, uh you will not be surprised that Aristotle's brilliance was also met in

his uh lack of brevity or [laughter] Um but basically Aristotle makes this point that every living creature seems to have some ultimate aim that it exists

for. He uses the example that an acorn's

for. He uses the example that an acorn's ultimate aim is to grow into a large oak tree. And he said similar to the acorn,

tree. And he said similar to the acorn, all of us are acorns that have some larger purpose that we are meant for and that we are always driving towards and some good in our lives that we are

trying to create uh for ourselves and for the world. Now, Aristotle's view of Taos or each individual's ultimate aim uh it it was not unique or or special in

the ancient world. The Stoics pretty much took after him and they very much saw each individual's purpose was to live in harmony with nature that there was some ultimate good, some virtue that

they were supposed to embody. And then

even in the eastern philosophies whether it's uh you know the Buddhist concept uh of dharma or some of the the Hindu ideas uh there is this constant focus on

returning to your true nature of that your goal in life is not to uh become something that you're not. It's to

actually reveal or discover who you truly are and who you're meant to be.

that there's kind of this predestined predetermined ideal of who you are and the world distracts you, confuses you.

Uh life [snorts] maybe uh you know throws a bunch of dirt on top of it and it's your job to go digging for it and and to realize who you were supposed to be all along. uh in the in Aristotle

sense it's through your actions through living virtuously and then in eastern philosophy and spirituality uh it's more of an internal process through meditation and mindfulness and insight

of uh realizing your true nature and realizing who you actually are. Now this

idea of life's ultimate purpose uh in philosophy it's known as teology which is based on Aristotle's word of talos and when you go through the western

cannon philosophers spend a lot of time thinking about teology I think the the the language that you see pop up the most that's kind of become the most

standard I would say uh through the history of western philosophy is you see a lot of this discussion of means and ends And I think this is a useful framework not only of thinking of this thinking

about this question of like the the philosophical definition of what is your life's purpose but I think means and ends are a useful tool for for thinking about your own actions and your own

motivations and trying to deduce uh uh like what your ultimate purpose is and in all the things that you do. So what

are means and ends? Means and ends are actually quite simple. A means is something that you are motivated to do conditionally. It's I'm going to do this

conditionally. It's I'm going to do this thing because I think it's going to get me something else. Right? So it's like I prepare for this podcast because I want

it to be successful and make me a bunch of money. And that in that example, the

of money. And that in that example, the podcast is the means. The money is the ends. Now the money might be a means to

ends. Now the money might be a means to some other end, right? Why do I want to make a bunch of money? Well, I want to make a bunch of money cuz I want to buy a really cool car and a bunch of cool

[ __ ] Okay, now the money is a means to buying a bunch of [ __ ] is the end. Why

do I want to buy a bunch of fancy [ __ ] Well, maybe uh my family's never approved of me and they think I'm a loser and a failure and I need to prove them wrong. Okay, well, now that's the

them wrong. Okay, well, now that's the end. So you work through this chain of

end. So you work through this chain of means and ends until eventually you arrive at something that philosophers call the end and of itself, right? So

why do I want my family to approve of me and to to love me?

>> Well, because I just want my family to approve of me and love me.

>> There's nothing beyond that that chain.

That is the end of the chain. That is my ultimate aim. That's the end and of

ultimate aim. That's the end and of itself. That is my taos. That is my

itself. That is my taos. That is my purpose.

>> That is the whether I'm aware of it or not. That is the purpose that I've

not. That is the purpose that I've chosen for myself and everything as you work backwards through that chain everything else is motivated downstream of that ultimate purpose. Now throughout

the ancient world the ancient philosophies uh there was kind of this sense that that that ultimate aim that in and of itself that that that taos

that we're all working towards is to some degree predetermined. It's just

baked into us. There's not really anything we could do about it. we're

either successfully working towards it or we are failing to work towards it.

And in the case of you know Aristotleian philosophy, if you're failing to work towards it, then you're not living virtuously. And if you're working

virtuously. And if you're working towards it, then you're working virtuously. So basically what

virtuously. So basically what Christianity did is they took what the ancient Greeks and the Stoics said about each individual having an ultimate aim or an ultimate purpose in their life.

And they just said, >> "Yeah, God chose that for you.

>> And if you're not working towards that, you're failing God." like a lot of things in early Christian theology uh they just kind of took stoicism and like replaced virtue with God.

>> Let me see if I got this right. In both

cases in the in the ancient philosophy as well as uh when the major religions started to take over there was no sense of you get to choose any of this right like this was somehow provided to you

either by the cosmos or by God or there's no sense that you get to choose any of this.

>> It's the natural order. So

>> pre-Christianity the sense was this is just nature and and you you can either live aligned with your nature >> which is ver living virtuously or you can defy your nature >> okay

>> which is going to cause suffering and which is living unverirtuously >> okay >> um >> and then when Christianity came around they're like you know God clearly chose you to do this

>> that's why you're doing it uh and you get no say in the matter >> okay right >> you you're already kind of pointing towards the thing that's wrong about this and and that is that there's a lot

of circular reasoning going on, right?

So, if you think of if you go back to Aristotle, he he's basically saying your ultimate goal in life is to live within the

confines of your nature, of who you are, and to not be distracted or deterred from living out who you are. Well, what

is your nature? who decides who you are?

Um well, Aristotle would say, well, that's your aim. That is your purpose is to find that and live it out. So, you

get this kind of circularity that starts happening of like, okay, living a good life means living virtuously, but living virtuously means living a good life or like living a good

life means living up to your inherent nature, but living up to your inherent nature requires you to live a good life.

So it's like, okay, you're just kind of defining the thing you want by the thing that gets you there. And

>> yeah, you're begging the question. Yeah,

>> it's Yes, it's so it kind of stops making sense. And this is this is

making sense. And this is this is actually what the Enlightenment philosophers start noting and pointing out, which we're going to get to in a second.

>> Okay. Okay. I do want to point out though what I do think they got right because I do think the thing that the ancient philosophies and in early Christianity got right has maybe been

lost a little bit in in the modern world >> which is that I think I think what Aristotle and the Stoics were probably observing is that

some people seem naturally suited for certain lifestyles or vocations over others, right? like people have

others, right? like people have different talents, people have different skills, people have different natural interests and I think what they probably

observed is that when you try to defy those natural talents and interests, you probably just make yourself suffer, right? So if you are if you have like a

right? So if you are if you have like a a real natural gravitation and talent for music >> and you just keep telling yourself like, "No, I shouldn't do music. I should go

do this other thing." you're probably going to make yourself suffer. And and

under the Aristotleian framework, >> like that makes sense. Like it's it's living outside the the dictates and confines of your nature is uh you know

to to not pursue the thing that you're interested in and talented in. You are

probably having to deny parts of yourself. You're probably having to numb

yourself. You're probably having to numb yourself in certain ways. You're lacking

courage in many ways. You're lacking

wisdom and temperance and all these ways. And these are all the Aristotleian

ways. And these are all the Aristotleian virtues. And so Aristotle would say you

virtues. And so Aristotle would say you are living unverirtuously by not not pursuing the thing that is of your true nature.

>> So there is a nugget of of truth here and there is a I think it's built off of a very important observation >> that I'm going to come back to >> towards the end of this story because I

do think it is super important and I do think a lot of the later philosophers, a lot of the modern philosophers either missed it or just kind of discount it.

So, put a pen in that. Your natural

talents matter. Your natural

inclinations and interests matter for sure.

>> That's the thing that they got right.

The thing they got wrong, I think, is just that your purpose is predetermined.

And I think this is where this mainstream notion of you have this magical purpose out there and it's your job to go find it as if you're like

>> I don't know looking for a a lost child in the woods, you know, like [laughter] >> like it's but it doesn't really work that way as [clears throat] as we're going to discuss ad nauseium

like purpose is it's a complex thing. It

it it evolves. It's a moving target. You

can have multiple purposes. You can you can find purpose in many many places. Uh

so this idea that it's like you have this one predetermined set purpose in your life and it is determined by God uh or by nature and you're either living in alignment with it or out of alignment

with it. That's overstating things quite

with it. That's overstating things quite a bit. So we get into the enlightenment

a bit. So we get into the enlightenment and like I said the circularity of the Aristotleian argument and the Christian

argument quickly starts to make itself apparent. So it begins with Decart who

apparent. So it begins with Decart who himself by the way was very religious and very devout. He made the point that it is impossible to read God's God's

will into nature. And this is a very I think this is a a subtle but brilliant point which basically what Daycart said was just because an acorn always becomes an oak doesn't mean that's what it's

supposed to do.

>> Just because it's what's always happened doesn't mean that that's what should happen.

And Spinosa followed this up closely after by pointing out that many ends, many many callings or purposes that people define for themselves are really

just reflections of what they want. Like

you can who is to say that like if I spend my life pursuing music, who's to say that that's necessarily my nature?

Couldn't it just be that like I really like music?

If I like music, is that my nature? like

did God make me that way or did I make me that way? Like Spinosa argued that it's it's much more likely that people just like things for whatever reason and

once they like it, they kind of backward rationalize this taleology on top of it.

This is my favorite thing and I do it all the time. So clearly this is what I was meant to do.

>> Okay. Right.

>> And I think there's a lot of truth to that which >> I I I'm sure we're going to talk about quite a bit as well. Then you get to Hume and I think Hume just really obliterated this whole thing. He kind of

took what Daycart alluded to and he he really dug into the core of the philosophical issue and he made a point

that to this day has not been resolved within philosophy and to this day you see a lot of very prominent thinkers fall victim to it which is called Humes

guillotine. It's also known as the is

guillotine. It's also known as the is ought fallacy. And basically the is

ought fallacy. And basically the is ought fallacy is that that just because something is a certain way doesn't mean it ought to be that way. That basically

you cannot derive a should from an is.

>> You cannot make a moral statement simply based on a factual observation. These

are almost like two domains, two separate domains that can never be bridged >> to each other. And it's funny because for centuries,

philosophers thinkers scientists even people as recent as like rich, you see Richard Dawkins do this all the time.

Sam Harris does this all the time where people, like for instance, Sam Harris has a whole moral framework that is essentially just based on research showing that people are happier in certain situations than others. And so

he's like, because we know people are happier in this situation than that situation, that means this situation is more moral. And there is something

more moral. And there is something instinctual inside of us that says, "Yeah, yeah, that feels true." But then if you actually philosophically sit down and say, "Okay, who's to say that

happiness is more moral than unhappiness?" Cuz I can think of a lot

unhappiness?" Cuz I can think of a lot of times that I was unhappy and it was actually good for me.

>> So this is the is this is the guillotine. This is like you can't

guillotine. This is like you can't bridge that chasm. Like it's you can't you can't derive moral truths from scientific observation. Like it's just

scientific observation. Like it's just it's not possible. And the reason this matters for teology or or finding one's purpose is it it comes back to like

let's say it is absolutely in your nature to be the best of something in the world. That doesn't necessarily mean

the world. That doesn't necessarily mean you should do it. For instance, Bobby Fischer by many accounts is is considered the most talented chess

player of all time. Like he he had this he was a prodigy. He had a meteoric rise I believe in terms of adjusted ELO rating. He is the highest rated uh chess

rating. He is the highest rated uh chess player in history in the history of chess. He became world champion at the

chess. He became world champion at the at an incredibly young age. And like a year or two later he was like [ __ ] this [ __ ] I hate chess. And he never played again. Now, is Bobby Fiser defying his

again. Now, is Bobby Fiser defying his nature? Is he is is he committing like a

nature? Is he is is he committing like a moral crime? Is he defying God? Like God

moral crime? Is he defying God? Like God

gave him more chess talent than anybody who's ever lived. And he he was like, "Yeah, I'm good. I don't want to play chess." There's still a modern debate

chess." There's still a modern debate around like, "Do we do things because we like them or do we like things because we do them?" So, it's very that's the modern reflection of it as well, too.

>> Yes.

>> And that's not resolved yet. Yeah. Yeah.

There's still debate about that.

>> No. Yeah. I guess if any listener was hoping for an extremely cleancut, >> like, >> yeah, >> here are the five steps to fi life purpose. Um, that's not what we do here

purpose. Um, that's not what we do here at Solved. Um,

at Solved. Um, >> ironically, it's called Solved because >> spoiler, nothing is solved. [laughter]

>> We will give you more questions than answers for sure.

>> Yes, >> spoiler alert, nothing in human psychology is solved. So, uh, teology is just it's so it's so fundamental to philosophy. Like, if you think of the

philosophy. Like, if you think of the most cliche philosophy question ever, it's what's the meaning of life, right?

Which is essentially like what is my purpose? Why am I here? Literally, every

purpose? Why am I here? Literally, every

single philosopher has wrestled with this and made arguments toward for certain things, against certain things, um, come up with different ideas. And

yeah, Hume's point is basically I mean Hume was of the Spinosa school of thought which is he was like look the things you value is just because you like them. It's cuz you feel good.

like them. It's cuz you feel good.

>> Like that thing you think is so important and is like has this cosmic significance you just like it. He argued that all value he he called them sentiments, but

all values were sentiment- based. That

there really was no morality beyond just like what makes us feel good and what makes us feel bad.

>> And it's funny because I don't personally believe that, but like I don't have an argument against it. Like

I I don't know how you refute that. So

Hume shows up and just demolishes any idea that we can know what our purpose is.

>> [clears throat] >> And it's funny because like a hundred years go by and nobody seems to really understand the implications of this until you get to the 19th century till

you get to Nichzche and Kirakagard.

So Nze who his his most famous statement that he ever wrote and and by the way Nietze

like he was a bit of a troll. He knew

what he was doing. Uh he wrote God is dead. Mhm.

dead. Mhm.

>> And at the time, like I mean, this was just unimaginable for somebody that to write this and publish this in the mid mid 1800s.

>> Such heresy, right? Yeah.

>> But if you actually go read the passage where he writes, "God is dead." There's

>> it's he is saying something extremely profound and important here. So, I'm

going to read I'm going to read the entire passage. Yeah.

entire passage. Yeah.

>> Everybody keep in mind that NZ was very dramatic and and a little bit over the top in his writing. So, he wrote this is from the gay science. God is dead. God

remains dead, and we have killed him.

How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was

holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives? Who will wipe the blood off of us? What water is there to

clean ourselves? What festivals of

clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement? What sacred games shall we

atonement? What sacred games shall we invent? Is not the greatness of this

invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?

Such a badass. [laughter]

I want to break this down. Yeah. A

little bit because there there's hidden inside this hype are some very very profound statements and observations about human psychology and human nature >> and it's completely misunderstood by a

lot of people.

>> It is. So God is dead. He remains dead.

We're the murderers. So what NZ is referring to here is that the enlightenment [clears throat] >> rationality uh the industrial revolution the the advance of technology he's he's

making the point that it's like God's not necessary anymore like we've abandoned God that God is no longer the center of our life. It's not it's not the organizing principle or the

organizing explanation behind everything. And keep in mind he's he's

everything. And keep in mind he's he's he's making this as a as a social observation, right? It's this is not a

observation, right? It's this is not a moral statement. He's simply observing.

moral statement. He's simply observing.

He's like, we have all this technology going. Everybody's getting educated and

going. Everybody's getting educated and clearly people are not taking religion very seriously anymore. At least not nearly as seriously as they used to. And

ironically, he's arguing here that this is this is this is a problem.

[clears throat] This is going to be a big problem for people. So he says, "What is what was holiest and mightiest of all the world that has yet owned has bled to death under our knives. Who will

wipe the blood off us?" Which again, if you think about what God is, God is the alleviation of all of our guilt. It is

the forgiveness for everything we've done wrong, for all the bad decisions that we've made, for for our our need to uh to to relinquish responsibility for

the repercussions of all of our [ __ ] decisions and and nature, >> our wasted potential. You know, God cleanses us of that. It alleviates us us of that. And what Nietz is saying is

of that. And what Nietz is saying is that if he is no longer the organizing principle, is he if he is no longer the taos of of everybody's life, >> we need to find another way to do that.

>> Like how are we going to clean the blood off ourselves if we don't have God to do it? Uh he says, "What water is there to

it? Uh he says, "What water is there to clean ourselves with?" And then he says, "What festivals of atonement? what

sacred games will we have to invent which this is the ritual aspect of it.

It's like if we have lost the rituals of of church and uh and holidays and the the sacraments and Easter and all of these things he's like we're we have to

create something in their place that represent that have the same psychological and social significance that these things have and if we don't we're going to be completely lost. And

he says, "Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Can he's saying can we handle this psychologically? Must

we ourselves not become gods to appear worthy of it?"

>> And that is like the the core of Nietian philosophy, which is this idea that without God determining the universe for us, we have

to learn how to determine the universe for ourselves. And this this was his

for ourselves. And this this was his answer to it is that if there is no fixed purpose or meaning in your life, it is your job to go create it. It is

your job to decide for yourself who you are, who you're going to be, to decide what you are meant for. You get to decide what your nature is essentially.

[clears throat] >> Like you become almost your own personal god in a way.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Yes. And that is very much >> has farreaching consequences. has very

farreaching consequences.

>> I think there are probably healthy and unhealthy ways to to read into that. I

think >> the healthy way to read into Nichze, which is the way I read into him, is that he's >> he's kind of the first person that I

know of at least, who is saying that you have a moral responsibility to improve yourself.

>> You have a moral responsibility to decide your own life for yourself.

And if you don't, if you're too scared to do it, that's that's pathetic. Kind of like the Frankle concept. I think it's taken root

Frankle concept. I think it's taken root in mainstream thought >> without us really realizing. Like I I think for a lot of us in the West at

least, like that is kind of our default assumption now. Like if you can't decide

assumption now. Like if you can't decide what your life is for yourself, then you're kind of failing on some level, you know? Like if you're sitting around

you know? Like if you're sitting around on the couch waiting for somebody to tell you what to do with your life, something went wrong, >> right?

>> And that was a novel concept 150 years ago. And it was a radical concept, a

ago. And it was a radical concept, a very radical concept.

[clears throat and snorts] >> His point too is that without a clear moral framework in religion to organize society, uh that we're we're going to inevitably invent new religions and new

sources of purpose for ourselves. And

Nietze was never to my knowledge he was never super explicit about what these new religions would be but he kind of hinted at them like you a lot of NZ's kind of

it's it's like reading between the lines like he was he was so flowery and dramatic with every with how he talked about everything that like sometimes you had to look at what he was implying

rather than what he was like explicitly saying. But um I do think the you know a

saying. But um I do think the you know a lot of people believe that he predicted the the political radicalism of the 20th

century and basically how politics has be become the new religion uh for for most people uh around the world.

>> Right. So like communism, >> fascism, >> fascism too. Yeah. Yeah. And so would you say

too. Yeah. Yeah. And so would you say then was part of his argument? So you

said, you know, we all have this responsibility now, >> moral responsibility to choose our lives uh and and to make them meaningful. Um

and if we don't, you said, you know, you're pathetic if you don't, but also you're opening yourself up to that kind of like somebody else is going to come in and give it to you.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Okay.

>> So NZ was like his worldview was very >> doggy dog, >> survival [clears throat] of the finish.

Yeah. Um, you know, he he had this concept of of the will to power, which was that >> is exactly what you just said. It's like

if you don't have the will to power to take control of your own life, somebody who does is [clears throat] going to take control of it for you.

>> And and by the way, he had no sympathy for you, >> right?

>> He was like, "That's your [ __ ] fault, >> right?" Well, I think he also probably

>> right?" Well, I think he also probably realized how ugly that could get.

>> Yeah, sure. Replace religion, but what are you going to replace it with? Be

very, very careful what you replace it with. Yeah. He really believed that the

with. Yeah. He really believed that the solution to I guess you could call it a moral relativism or or just kind of this like lack of teology um was something that he called

self-overcoming. He also called it a

self-overcoming. He also called it a re-evaluation of values. You know, we talked in the values episode about how we all grow up depending on our parents, our family, our environment, the schools

we go to, the religions we grow up with.

Initially, our values are kind of installed in us. Like, we don't you don't choose what your values are when you're a kid. You just adopt what the people around you, particularly your

parents, value. And then at some point

parents, value. And then at some point in adulthood, you have to stop and look around and be like, do I actually care about this? Cuz I I kind of don't. and

about this? Cuz I I kind of don't. and

and then like learn how to let that go and replace it with something you actually do care about. So Nichze for Nze this was this was the self-overcoming this was the process of

um you know he called it becoming an overman or a superman um or ubberman >> Uberman sh >> but it was basically somebody who had decided for themselves what their own moral code was

>> decided for themselves what their own purpose was why they were alive you know Victor Frankle often quoted NZ was very very inspired by Nichzche Nichzche said

once you figure out what you stand for what you give a [ __ ] about. Then you

become unstoppable because then you know what's worth suffering for. You know

what's worth paying attention to. You

know what's worth ignoring. You know

which people are worth building a relationship with. You know which people

relationship with. You know which people are worth >> not building a relationship with. It all

comes back to those personal values. So

that that's the charitable interpretation of NZ. I think the the people who kind of look at him with shock and horror, it is because there's like he's kind of encouraging people to

just throw away all of their moral intuitions and decide from first principles what's right and wrong. And

he was he also detested sympathy. Uh and

I think just most people's moral intuition is to be sympathetic towards people who suffer and and people who are less fortunate them than themselves. He

unapologetically saw that as weakness.

He saw that as uh basically he said sympathy is you're you're taking on dead weight. You're just slowing yourself

weight. You're just slowing yourself down from doing what you need to do. Um

it's not like he encouraged people to go hurt other people. Like he was he was actually extremely critical of a lot of the political movements of his time. and

and interestingly he was extremely critical of nationalism and racism which was pretty radical at his time and that's something that you wouldn't

necessarily associate with him but because he saw that as just also another form of weakness another form of stupidity >> but yeah he didn't he he thought

sympathy you know giving all your your assets away to the poor like he just saw this that he saw it as as weakness and and he detested it.

>> Not only that, but correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he see as sympathy for yourself was also not he didn't he he never he he didn't want you to indulge

in that either, right? So far as like >> at the like he never drank he didn't drink alcohol like alcohol and drugs were like no none of that because it keeps you from the pain of life. You

need to feel that pain. So he didn't it was self sympathy wasn't uh in his repertoire either. Right.

repertoire either. Right.

>> Yes. And the irony of Nichzche is that he kind of talked a big game like you know when you read him >> he's like puff chest puffed out you know

[ __ ] them all you do you man like >> [ __ ] them if they can't handle it like he was that type of guy like he's like that the philosophy version of that guy >> but when you actually read about his

life like that guy suffered more than almost anybody like he he was so debilitated and crippled by disease like injuries,

chronic pain, >> massive like neurological issues, like all sorts. He was bedridden for most of

all sorts. He was bedridden for most of his life. Um, and it's funny, too, cuz

his life. Um, and it's funny, too, cuz when you read accounts of his social life uh all of his his friends, most of his friends were women. He was a very

feminine guy. He was like very into

feminine guy. He was like very into music and poetry and he was very witty and he loved dinner parties and like he was like the complete opposite of the person he was telling you to be. He was

he was like the equivalent of like the liver king like telling you like you know be a man like hit the gym you know and then he like as soon as the camera goes off he's like going and hanging out and watching like Real Housewives with

his with his girlfriends you know.

[laughter] >> Not to say the Liver King did that but it's just kind of like I don't know why he came to mind. Um before we get into the 20th century and and into kind of

who the philosophy that I think really solved this this issue of purpose um there is another really important thinker that we need to touch on and and that is Kira Garden. You know Kira

Garden and Nichze are kind of seen as the the two founders of exist existentialist philosophy [clears throat] >> uh which is like the modern continental philosophy and it's also the philosophy I most identify with. But it's

interesting Kirkagard and Nichze saw the exact same problem and came to essentially the opposite conclusions. So

Kirkagard made a really startling and interesting observation which as somebody who's not religious I find endlessly amusing but I think anybody who's religious might find it a little

uncomfortable. So Kirkagard made the

uncomfortable. So Kirkagard made the point. He said, "Look, if you're a

point. He said, "Look, if you're a Christian and you actually believe the things that Christianity says are true. You believe

that the son of God came down from heaven, visited us on earth, forgave all of our sins, was killed, resurrected,

performed a bunch of miracles." He said, "This is so [ __ ] incredible.

you should literally spend no time doing anything else. Like if you actually

anything else. Like if you actually believe this, >> like this is so absurdly important compared to everything else that you should you your entire life should

revolve around it. Like you should be so committed to this idea that there's no time and space for anything else in your life. But because

obviously 99% of Christians or people of any religion are not really that committed to it, they've got all sorts of other things going on. They've got

jobs and families and social lives and hobbies and all this other stuff. He

really looked down on them. He he

thought it was he he thought it was hypocritical essentially. And it and

hypocritical essentially. And it and it's an amusing observation, but at the core of it is is actually something very profound. And what's profound about it

profound. And what's profound about it is this is that Kierkagard's argument was if there's no predetermined purpose for your life, if there's no

predetermined like if you can essentially adopt any purpose you want, then whatever you choose, you have to commit hard like you can't dabble. And

this is definitely this is definitely going to come up in some of our conversations around like what people why people struggle with purpose today.

Kirkagard's point was like you can't dabble in a purpose. You can't just be like, you know, dip your toe in the water and be like, you know, maybe I'll be a professional musician. No, that's

hard. Like [laughter] his point was like if you decide that something is the central focus of your life, your talos,

you have to be allin. All [ __ ] in.

Like there's no way back. And this is actually where he Kirkagard is actually where the term leap of faith comes from.

He wrote this incredible book called Fear and Trembling. And the book is actually about the Abraham story in the Bible. He really dissects it in just a

Bible. He really dissects it in just a very fascinating way. So, as the story goes, Abraham was the most loyal and faithful servant of God. And uh God wanted to test his faith, which uh by

the way is very insecure of God. You

know, come on, dude. Like, have some trust in in your relationships.

[laughter] Anyway, another podcast. But

but he wanted to test Abraham's faith.

And so he sent an angel down and delivered a message and said asked Abraham to uh sacrifice kill his favorite son. [clears throat]

favorite son. [clears throat] >> And so Abraham collected his son, started climbing up a mountain and was going to kill him for God. And Kiraard

and then at the last minute, God's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. JK, lol. Uh we're

good, bro. Thanks for thanks for coming." Uh, which by the way, God,

coming." Uh, which by the way, God, that's that's pretty toxic. That's

[laughter] uh there's some gaslighting going on there.

>> I can just see the comments already.

This is Oh, boy.

>> Anyway, another podcast. Um,

so Kierard makes the point that whether Christianity or not, whatever it is you choose in your life, you need to approach it with an Abraham level of

commitment. like you are you are willing

commitment. like you are you are willing to throw yourself throw everything you care about into it with no with with abandon [clears throat]

>> to get purpose you have to commit and to commit you have to be willing to give up a lot of important things in your life that's actually what makes it meaningful that's actually what makes it purposeful

so now we have two elements we have natural talents and inclinations right leaning into what you are predisposed to

um and not being distracted from that.

Second, we have it's full-on commitment.

You you don't halfass it. You're giving

things up. You're sacrificing. You're

struggling. You're making a leap of faith. You're doing the thing without

faith. You're doing the thing without knowing if it's going to pay off or if it's worth it. Now, we come to the third element. So, we talked about Frankle at

element. So, we talked about Frankle at the top of the show. Frankle was

extremely in inspired by these 19th century philosophers, most importantly Nichza. But I want to talk about a guy

Nichza. But I want to talk about a guy who came a little bit after him who I've written about quite a bit in my books.

Guy named Ernest Becker. So Ernest

Becker was an a very eccentric academic and as someone who was in academia um you you knew very well that uh eccentricity is not very much rewarded [laughter] in academia being somebody

who thinks outside the box and is uh quite creative um is is not exactly rewarded in academia. But Ernest Becker was he was this oddball. You know, he would uh he would teach an anthropology

class and spend the entire time talking about psychology and then he would go to a psychology class and spend the entire time talking about history and then he would go to a history class and spend the entire time talking about

anthropology. And uh he would invent

anthropology. And uh he would invent games and wear costumes to his lectures.

And uh uh you know he he was really big in the Zen Buddhism. So he would like put Zen Cohen's in his exams and like which for people who aren't familiar what a Zen Cohen is, it's literally a

question without an answer. Like there

is no answer to the question like what is the what was your name before you were born as a popular Zen Cohen. The

whole point of them is that they don't have an answer. Uh [laughter] so so he was just this oddball and he kind of got kicked from institution to institution

uh going from university to university throughout his entire career. Um really

struggled. He was very prolific. He

wrote a lot of papers and a lot of books. But he really struggled through

books. But he really struggled through his career. And then uh around age 30, I

his career. And then uh around age 30, I think I want to say in his early 30s, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And

I guess you know the the impact of that diagnosis um combined with I suppose the focus that [snorts] it forced on him. uh he

wrote a book on his deathbed called the denial of death and it went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. It's one of the most

Pulitzer Prize. It's one of the most celebrated books of the latter 20th century. It is philosophically profound,

century. It is philosophically profound, psychologically profound. It it's it's a

psychologically profound. It it's it's a monumental work. It's one of my favorite

monumental work. It's one of my favorite books ever. knowing the context and

books ever. knowing the context and circumstances, you have this guy who's just like a polymath and and is on his deathbed forced to focus and leave one

final message for the world and like this is what he leaves. And basically

here's what Becker's argument was in denial of death. So Freud in his work argued that that humans are are primarily motivated by just very anim animalistic instincts. There's the

animalistic instincts. There's the pleasure principle. There's the

pleasure principle. There's the avoidance of pain. And and uh and and also Freud talked quite a bit about the death instinct.

But it's interesting because in Freud's analysis uh you know the death instinct was usually secondary or tertiary to the things like

sex and repressed sexual feelings and whatever stuff about your anus and your mom and >> weird Freudian [ __ ] >> All the fixations.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Becker said that he was right about the death instinct, but it was that is actually what's driving everything else. So Becker's argument

everything else. So Becker's argument was that as soon as we become self-aware, the the thing that is unique about humans and of all living creatures is that we are

aware that we're going to die. that as

soon as you have this awareness of self, as soon as you have an ego and an awareness of self and a theory of mind, it is inherent that accompanied with that that you understand one day you're

going to be dead.

And because you understand that you're going to be dead, that is terrifying.

It's like and most people just avoid it, repress it, um bury it, distract themselves from it. And Becker argued that that all the stuff that Freud

described and attributed to to sex and sexual repression, it was actually an avoidance of death. It was all it was, you know, all the addiction and compulsion and drama and and

distraction. Like it's really what we're

distraction. Like it's really what we're doing is distracting us from the fact that like we have a very limited amount of time. We don't know what we're doing

of time. We don't know what we're doing and we don't know if what anything we're doing is going to matter. and that those thoughts are so overwhelming that we

just we can't live with that dayto-day.

Becker was of the same school of thought as as Frankle and that like ultimately we're driven by searching for a sense of meaning that we want a sense of purpose

in our lives that that is at our core what matters most to us. And but

Becker's theory around it was that we had these things called immortality projects. And Becker said that the

projects. And Becker said that the things that we find meaning and purpose in, the reason they feel so meaningful is because they're going to outlive

ourselves. Right? So the reason you care

ourselves. Right? So the reason you care so much uh about raising a family is because that family is going to be around when you're gone. The reason you

care so much uh to create a piece of art, to write a book, to create a movie is because that piece of you is going to be around when you're gone. You can go

down the line and look at pretty much everything people care most about.

Whether it's a nationality, a political movement, a charity, family, relationships, creative works.

>> Yeah. Careers. careers,

>> money.

>> Really, what we're what we're trying to he he argued what we're trying to do is build things that are going to last when we're gone.

>> Because it's if you can point if you can lay on your deathbed and point the things and be like, "That's going to stick around. That's going to stick

stick around. That's going to stick around. That's going to stick around. I

around. That's going to stick around. I

left my mark there. I left my mark there. I left my mark there.

there. I left my mark there.

You can die in peace." And he knew this because he was on his deathbed when he was writing it. and and it's like he caught this glimpse of of a truth of a human condition that like

is really only noticeable in your final moments and then conveyed it to the rest of us. So this is the third piece which

of us. So this is the third piece which is contributing to something that is bigger than yourself. Giving yourself

away to something or someone or some group of people and I think these three factors are that significance piece >> that we were talking about earlier. You

know, we're talking about direction, which is like knowing which way to face, having clarity on what matters. There's

the action, which is like you're moving towards it. But then there's the

towards it. But then there's the significance. And I think the thing that

significance. And I think the thing that makes something significant or not, it's are you uniquely suited to do it? Is it

something that you see? And this is where people I feel called to do this, right? It's like it's like I can give

right? It's like it's like I can give this great contribution to the world, but because I'm one of the few people with these skills and talents, >> it now feels like a calling to do it.

Like I was put here to do this because I look around and I don't know anybody else who can do it. So are you uniquely suited to do this? Are you willing to suffer and sacrifice for it? And then

third, are you contributing to something or someone long after you're gone? If

you can nail all three of those things, you have a massive amount of significance in your life, which means that you have a lot of purpose in your life. I just spent a lot of time

your life. I just spent a lot of time talking about all these philosophers.

It's funny though. I think the best quote and all my research for this episode, the single best quote I found for purpose uh actually came from Picasso.

>> Okay.

>> And he said, "The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away." Yeah.

>> Okay. I've heard that one before. That's

a good That's a very good one actually.

Yeah. Okay. So, get like one more time with the recap. So, there's the the three things again. G give us from those.

>> Yeah. So, the significance piece, what makes it meaningful? What makes a pursuit meaningful? First one is are you

pursuit meaningful? First one is are you naturally inclined or positioned to do it? Is there something unique about you?

it? Is there something unique about you?

Second, are you willing to struggle or sacrifice for it? Are you willing to give other things up? And third, is it contributing to something greater than yourself? Are you leaving your mark on

yourself? Are you leaving your mark on the world? Are you creating something

the world? Are you creating something that future generations are going to benefit from?

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> Like you you nail those three things like that's you're the feeling of significance and importance is going to be extremely high.

So that's the philosophical lineage of purpose. Uh but why don't we talk about

purpose. Uh but why don't we talk about the modern psychological research on purpose, the scientific approach to purpose? What can science teach us,

purpose? What can science teach us, Drew?

>> Okay. Yeah. So, let's just let's start with the brain.

>> Okay.

>> Okay. And what neuroscience has found kind of some of the neural cororalates of purpose, right?

Somebody with a stronger sense of purpose, we see there's like a strong connectivity going on between the reward pathways in your brain and kind of the longer term planning. So, there's like this association that happens. and

you're like, "Oh, I I can plan for future rewards better. I see I see more into the future. I have a more future orientation >> um about the world and my life when I

have a strong sense of purpose." So, not only um are you more motivated >> um for when you do have a clear purpose, but you also experience reward more >> interesting

>> um based like that comes from that sense of purpose and and and working towards that purpose. It's interesting just to

that purpose. It's interesting just to bring back that that chain of means and ends.

>> Yeah.

>> Like if you think of somebody who's very short-term oriented, >> they're really only thinking through the end and of itself is like very immediate. It's like I'm hungry. I'm

immediate. It's like I'm hungry. I'm

going to eat and like that's it. Whereas

if you think about purpose, it tends to be very deep into that chain. So it's

like I'm working really hard because I need to make money. I'm making money because I need to raise a family. I'm

raising a family because I want to uh have a life full of love and compassion and affection. And like that is like a

and affection. And like that is like a very long-term there's like multiple links in that chain. Each of those links requires a lot of time and effort and energy. And so by definition it like

energy. And so by definition it like requires you to think on on like a multi-deade timeline which I could I could totally see why that would reorient your reward system within your brain.

>> Right. Yeah. That future oriented mindset that you get from that. There's

also I' I've seen some of this and I I don't know I haven't dug real deep into it just yet, but um I've seen a few things coming out saying people who are more kind of short-term focused are are

operating within the amygdala. And

there's some debate about what the amigdala is actually doing. For the

longest time, everybody's like it's the fear center, it's the you know it's it's alarm center, whatever it is, but it's actually what um more of a filter for what you're paying attention to and it's usually more shortterm oriented. Whereas

when you do have more of a clear term clear purpose, you have less less uncertainty about what you want to do in your life, you go more towards this longer term mindset.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and so that's I mean that's really kind of what's going on in the brain is that these reward centers um that you know dopamineergic reward centers and dopamine again is like it's seeking, it's looking, it's it's you're going out

and and seeking.

>> It's the pursuit neurotransmitter >> pursuit, right? It's the pursuit and there's strong connectivity again with the future planning uh the the temporal cortex or the the uh the frontal cortex

and executive functioning is is stronger in individuals who have this. Now

there's maybe a little bit of a chicken and an egg there but >> still a very >> as with all things brain it >> there's probably a feedback loop honestly is what's going on like we talked about in the resilience episode you can build resilience you can build a

more resilient brain by doing things that make your brain more resilient.

There's a little bit of circularity there.

>> Yeah. So, it sounds like fundamentally speaking, the first thing that a sense of purpose does for you is it creates a greater long-term orientation, which again passes the common sense check.

Like if you if you're very missionoriented, if you feel like you have like some deeper or higher calling in your life, if you're thinking about an immortality project like we talked about earlier, something that's going to

outlive you, that's going to be passed on to the next generations. By

definition, you are thinking in very long time horizons. So I guess the next question is what is what are the repercussions of being more long-term oriented,

>> right? Yes. And one of the big things we

>> right? Yes. And one of the big things we find is that you're more your brain's more efficient. You're more cognitively

more efficient. You're more cognitively efficient. You have this architecture,

efficient. You have this architecture, this cognitive architecture uh around your purpose, around the direction you want to go, around the actions you need to take. And it's very clear. It's much

to take. And it's very clear. It's much

clearer to you what you need to do. So

there's not like all this noise going on in your mind, in your brain, and your in your life really that is distracting from that purpose that you have. you're

like, "No, this is my purpose." And

everything else is easily push pushed to the side. At that point,

the side. At that point, >> it's much easier to to block out distractions. It's much easier to say no

distractions. It's much easier to say no to things. Uh it's much easier to to

to things. Uh it's much easier to to not deal with people's [ __ ] if you have a lot of clarity on what your purpose is.

>> You're also efficient like in the cognitive reappraisal of of setbacks and obstacles that do come along. So when

there is a friction that that's that's put in front of you, any sort of obstacle or whatever, it's it's much easier for you to reframe that as well with that singular purpose in mind. So

you just get more efficient with dealing with dealing with uh stress in your life, dealing with obstacles, dealing with the [ __ ] dealing with uh distractions too. Yeah.

distractions too. Yeah.

>> Um are a lot of that is just it goes away and you're just much more efficient cognitively, neurally everything it just starts to align that way. So yeah. Yeah.

>> Very cool.

>> Yeah. So, when I think about this, your your brain being more efficient, your your mind being more efficient when you have a singular purpose. You've brought

up in the past, um, something that I thought of as kind of a parallel here.

You talked about one of the unexpected benefits of getting married, right?

[laughter] There there's there's a connection here. I swear.

connection here. I swear.

>> I see it. No, I I see it. I see it.

>> So, I think one time you told me it was like it's like running Photoshop in the background on your computer. It slows

everything down. It's increases all that cognitive load because you're like, you know, you're always looking where's the hot girl, you know, or does she like me?

Does she when you get married like all of that doesn't matter anymore and you get this like singular focus that you have?

>> Yeah. I I often compared it to uh to all my single guy friends. I I I always told him I was like, you know, when your browser has like 38 tabs open and [laughter] like every page loads incredibly slowly, >> uh

>> getting married is like closing all the tabs but one. Yeah. and and suddenly the the browser is like running super fast and efficiently and everything's load loading really quickly. What I didn't

realize is that there was just a certain percentage of my brain's CPU was [clears throat] constantly

>> spent processing uh you know what women thought about me, what women are in the room, who could I meet, who could I talk to, who could I flirt with. And once I

kind of once I made that decision with my wife, it it was like all of those questions just got turned off and that all that processing power in my brain got freed up to focus on other things.

It's funny because there's a lot of um survey data and research on how married men actually end up performing better in their career. So it's when men get

their career. So it's when men get married, they get a boost in their career and then when they have kids, they get a second boost in their career.

>> And there's a lot of theories around why this is because you don't see this in women. And uh there's a a lot of pundits

women. And uh there's a a lot of pundits who have different ideas and hypotheses and whatnot, but like one of the things that just from my experience of getting married is >> I just have like I have more focus. Like

I'm not I'm not thinking about like trying to find a party this Friday night or I'm not I'm not like worrying about like what I should text the girl I'm dating, you know? It's like you just there's like this peace and calm that

comes with a stable relationship uh that allows you to turn everything else off and just focus on what's what's happening in front of you.

>> It's it's the the freedom through limitation.

>> Yes.

>> And there the same thing happens with having a a life purpose that you can clearly define and look to. It's like

there's freedom. I I'm free from all of these other things now. I'm free from having to think about this. I'm free

from having to worry about and wonder about that purpose anxiety. Yeah. Right.

All of that gets it gets shed.

>> Yeah. It's it's I I've I've had an analogous experience in my career.

>> Yeah.

>> Because early on in my career, you know, when when it was it was things were much less stable. It was it wasn't even clear

less stable. It was it wasn't even clear if this was a career or not, >> if I was going to need to go find a job at some point, >> you know, as an entrepreneur, you're always thinking about like what other businesses could I start, what sort of

industry could I get into. Uh I I hit a point maybe 5 years ago where I just kind of realized I'm like this is my life. Like this is

life. Like this is >> this is my mission. This is my purpose.

I'm a lifer now. Like I'm going to be in this industry till the day I'm dead. Uh

and again there's a liberation that came with that. A freedom of like I don't

with that. A freedom of like I don't have to worry about this [ __ ] anymore. I

can just focus on being as excellent as possible at this one thing.

>> Yeah. [clears throat] And I think there we'll talk about this I'm sure more too, but just the whole um you know paradox of choice. Yes. That happens right now.

of choice. Yes. That happens right now.

It's we have all these different avenues and this is part of the problem.

>> When you were talking about more like with in ancient traditions in more religious societies, ancient religious societies where this was provided for you that was there was a cognitive shortcut for you. You didn't have a

choice.

>> Yes. If you were the son of a farmer, you were going to be a farmer. If you

were if you were born a slave, you're going to be a slave. like there there there's no decision-m or or uncertainty around it. Um whereas today the fact

around it. Um whereas today the fact that we have so much optionality >> um you know we talked about Kierard's leap of faith right like >> the more options you have the the harder

it is to take that leap with any single thing [clears throat] >> because you're to to commit to any single thing the more the more opportunities you're giving up as a

result right like it's it's much easier to decide to marry a per like if you grow up in a small town and there's like literally only two suitable partners for you to marry making a decision is probably not that hard. You just go with

the one that you like more. Whereas, if

you live in like New York City in the age of Bumble and Hinge and Tinder and everything like, and you're literally on a date with a different person every 3 days for a decade,

>> it suddenly becomes extremely difficult to make that leap and that commitment towards somebody because you're you're giving up so much possibility and opportunity. So, it's that's just one of

opportunity. So, it's that's just one of the ways that I think the modern world complicates purpose, >> right? and how purpose is actually the

>> right? and how purpose is actually the antidote in many ways. I would say commitment is many in many ways the antidote to to the paradox of choice and and the issues that come with the modern

world and and the side effect of that is that you do feel a sense of purpose.

It's >> and I think not to get too off onto a tangent, but I think a lot of people they're afraid to make those commitments because they want to feel the sense of purpose first. like

purpose first. like >> like they're like, "I want to know that this person is going to be my partner for the rest of my life before I make the commitment." And it's like, "No, no,

the commitment." And it's like, "No, no, no. You make the commitment and then

no. You make the commitment and then they become your partner for the rest of your life." The same thing with with a a

your life." The same thing with with a a career. Like, it's you don't sit around

career. Like, it's you don't sit around and wait for your your your career purpose to show up on your doorstep and be like, "Oh, this is the thing I should do for the rest of my life." No, you decide this is going to be the thing

that I'm going to do best. I'm going to dedicate my life to. I'm going to give myself to and then the purpose happens as a result, >> right? It's very active. Yeah.

>> right? It's very active. Yeah.

>> The sacrifice has to happen first.

>> Okay. Okay. Yeah.

>> You can't wait for it.

>> All that to say, I wouldn't trade. I

would rather have all this optionality and the purpose anxiety and be able to choose my purpose, you know, rather than, you know, like that's a good problem to have. I'm not saying, oh, we should all go back and just be given a purpose. That's not

purpose. That's not >> Yeah.

>> So, it's funny because purpose I feel like purpose has shown up in almost every single episode that we've done.

>> Yeah.

>> Very briefly. It's like a It's like a character in a movie that's like in the background like in multiple scenes. Um,

you know, we did an episode on procrastination and and productivity and purpose shows up there of like if you're working on something that has a high degree of purpose, feels very important to you, you're probably going to procrastinate less. You're probably

procrastinate less. You're probably going to work on it very much harder.

You're going to you're you're going to be more consistent with it. We talked

about it in in terms of emotional regulation, like having a sense of purpose. Like if you have some sort of

purpose. Like if you have some sort of greater sense of purpose in your life, um you're gonna it's it's going to make it easier to manage your emotions because you're going to have that uh you

can't afford to just like fly off the handle and and indulge your your anger or your sadness or your anxiety. You're

like, "No, no, I have to keep my [ __ ] together cuz I've got this really important thing that I'm working towards." It shows up in resilience.

towards." It shows up in resilience.

Like we talked about both on the resilience episode and on the stoicism episode uh how that that like that zooming out practice of like when you zoom out and get wider perspective both

across uh space and time your problems feel more insignificant you get context you realize you're like oh this isn't the end of the world like I'm probably going to be fine um and I think purpose

helps you do that because if you are thinking on the time scale of an entire lifetime or uh the next generation.

It's you're nudging your brain into consistently thinking about on a long like that that zoomed out perspective.

And so if something doesn't go your way or a setback shows up or somebody's like really mean to you, sure you'll be upset, but like you have that perspective to understand like this doesn't really matter. Like

>> it's it's not really going to deter me in the long run, >> right? Yeah. Well, and just as you

>> right? Yeah. Well, and just as you brought that up, that is kind of where I was going with this was that um you know, once you have that longer term uh

orientation and you have that cognitive efficiency, you are better able to be more emotionally regulated and resilient. Um and the research bears

resilient. Um and the research bears that out as well. But with psychologists kind of call this a cognitive anchor that you have.

>> And it's, you know, when when you do have this clear purpose, you can anchor on that purpose when things when [ __ ] hits the fan, which it inevitably will, right? Again, purpose doesn't get rid of

right? Again, purpose doesn't get rid of your pain, your suffering.

>> Uh it probably introduces more into your life, but you now have a a much better reason for that.

>> It makes it worthwhile.

>> It makes it worthwhile at that point. Um

and then this shows up in physiological outcomes, too. lower cortisol levels,

outcomes, too. lower cortisol levels, reduced inflammation, higher heart rate variability, which is a sign of resilience, as we talked about in that episode. Adaptive stress responses are

episode. Adaptive stress responses are are are much more in tuned. Yeah.

>> Um so it's >> you you have this whole kind of cascade that happens >> um when you do define a purpose and you you're like you're kind of locked in on it. Yeah. Right.

it. Yeah. Right.

>> Do we talk about ego identity? I want to talk about ego.

>> We can talk about ego identity.

[laughter] Yes. Because that's Yeah.

>> I'm so excited for the ego identity.

>> Yes. Purpose. purpose does give you a it is kind of like the foundation of a like a healthy ego almost.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh it's it's at least one part of it.

You have a much more coherent identity when you have a purpose because you're like this is who I am. This is where I'm going and this is what I do.

>> Yes.

>> On a day-to-day basis. It's funny

because I I didn't really think about this until uh I started thinking about critically about kind of Aristotle like the you know I talked about in the philosophy section about how Aristotle

and the Stoics were very focused on your living out your nature like being [clears throat] embodying your true nature or whatever. Um, and how I feel like there's a nugget of truth in that,

but that's incomplete. And, and how like the later philosophers recognize that no, you need some sort form of higher purpose or something beyond yourself to to kind of dedicate yourself or throw yourself into.

>> And it's interesting because if you actually look at Freud's definition of the ego, his definition of the ego is that the ego mediates between two opposite

needs or or influences. your anim

animalistic nature. So your your natural innate desires and will >> the id >> which is the id on one side and then the super ego on the other side which is your social conscience

>> and your feeling of duty and obligation to the people around you >> and the ego is basically constructs your sense of self like who you understand yourself to be um in a way that

satisfies both of those sides. Now if we come back to that definition of life purpose that from Picasso it's like the meaning of life is to find your gift and then the purpose of life is to give it

away. It's kind of like the ideal ego is

away. It's kind of like the ideal ego is to build your identity around something that a leverages your natural innate

talents or dispositions and then b gives it away to people in a way that it's going to outlive yourself.

>> And it's like it satisfies those two sides perfectly. It gave me nerd chills

sides perfectly. It gave me nerd chills and and I [laughter] got really excited when I started thinking about it. But

but the other thing and and this is a little bit more practical and you you me you brought this up when we talked about meaning earlier is and Freud talks about this too is that

>> one of the innate needs of of of an ego is to maintain coherence like you have to have a coherent narrative of who you

are across time. So the the the you the Drew who lives today is you have some narrative in your brain that connects it to Drew from 20 years ago and Drew when you were a child and Drew 10 years from

now and that narrative is it's very like sacred and and special. It's like

something that we protect the same way we would protect our physical body.

>> And in many ways purpose is part of that narrative. It's like a huge chunk of

narrative. It's like a huge chunk of that that narrative that drives self-coherence. Like if I decide like I

self-coherence. Like if I decide like I I am uh a personal development writer and I'm dedicating my life to improving the mental health of people around the world, which is that is what I feel like

my purpose is.

>> Um not only does that define that narrative that creates coherence across my entire lifespan, but it becomes part of my identity. like when I show up in a room, that's who I know myself to be and

that's how I understand myself and that's how I define myself, which is it's important for for mental health to have those self- definitionf

um and and and feel good about them.

>> Right. Well, and you you mentioned it there though, too. But not only does are you not only is it giving you an identity, um you take that identity into other places and you take that into

other groups as well, which is kind of this is the next part. Yeah.

>> Which is the social aspect of it, right?

Um you find you find purpose through belonging and your belonging to that group also informs your purpose. There's

a two-way street there as well, right?

>> Um so once you kind of define who you are and you get that identity and you have a healthy ego around it, then you go searching for other people >> or or you naturally just gravitate towards them or they they do you, right?

>> And this is where that kind of community aspect comes in. This could also be like I think this is a great way. It's I

don't think it's a a a coincidence that we're going through a period where people feel so lost and at the same time so lonely.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

>> Absolutely. Well, we talked about this on the friendship episode.

>> We talked about this in friendship and resilience too.

>> Yes. You have to have stakes. You can't

just make friends like you can't just go to a gym and like work out with a guy and be friends. Like you have to have >> stakes in the same thing. You have to care deeply about the same thing. And

and I would say that like that's purpose, right? It's like

purpose, right? It's like >> purpose through identity.

>> Yes. You become friends with people who share who are like on the same path as you or share a mission with you or deeply care about the same things as you or or feel that they they're a stakeholder in the same things as you

do. You are

do. You are >> and and I want to highlight there's it's a two-way street.

>> Yeah. you you get you you have some inkling of a purpose um or you have a clearly defined one either way and you go and you associate with these people and you're it it energizes you and it energizes that sense of purpose you have

you know last time um I was in town I went to this podcaster thing you know and I was kind of reluctantly going >> you grumbled about it quite a bit >> I'm not into networking [laughter] I'm not I grumbled >> you're like I don't want to go network

and I'm like dude it's like 10 podcast the 10 people who do the exact same thing you do [laughter] you aren't chomping at the bits of gum either so I just want to say, >> but it was definitely and it was one of those things too where we've talked a

lot about like, you know, get out of the house, go do things. I went and it was fantastic.

>> And like I obviously I love podcasting.

I love the podcasting industry. I went

in there. I got to talk to people who were going through the same things I was going through. We were we had the same

going through. We were we had the same problems. We had the same gripes about the industry. Um we had we knew all knew

the industry. Um we had we knew all knew the same lingo. We could talk about the same people. Uh, and there was just an

same people. Uh, and there was just an energy to it and you're like, and I left there feeling like, oh, this is >> Yeah. This is why this is one of the big

>> Yeah. This is why this is one of the big reasons I do this.

>> You get you get this feeling of like these are my people.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You absolutely do.

>> And it's an amazing feeling. It's it's

it's hard to find it, but when you do find it, it's like such a great feeling.

>> It really is. Yeah. And I just again, I don't think it's a coincidence that people feel lost and lonely at the same time. Yeah. And that's that's a huge

time. Yeah. And that's that's a huge reason why. You think about it in other

reason why. You think about it in other areas though too like an environmental activist is probably a quintessential kind of archetype of this. But you know that >> if you're really into environmental protectionism, you're going to go out

and find groups in your community that are doing the same thing or you're raising money and going to fundraisers and there's this whole social aspect for it to it and you all feed off of each other and it helps develop your purpose

around this. So, I'm glad you mentioned

around this. So, I'm glad you mentioned that because I I want to I want to go on a little bit of a sidebar here >> because one of the things that I uncovered in in in my research for this

episode that I can't stop thinking about >> is the religiosity like consistently when you look at surveys around a sense of purpose, >> religious people report a much higher

one.

>> Generally, a very high sense of purpose and >> kind of the whole [laughter] thing, right?

>> And secular people report consistently a much lower sense of purpose or or a lack of purpose.

>> And I have two comments about this. I

think one you just mentioned >> uh activism or even alluded to polit political activism.

>> I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's revolutionary or or relatively new.

I mean, I've been talking about this for 10 years, but I I think people this Nietian idea of like people replacing rel religion with politics. I think a lot of people I think one of the reasons

why so many countries are so politically polarized and divided is that people are people feel that lack of a sense of purpose. They feel a lack of something

purpose. They feel a lack of something greater than themselves in their lives and politics is is like one of the easiest things that they can latch on to. Um, I know David Brooks, who's a

to. Um, I know David Brooks, who's a who's a friend of the show, um, has described this as politics is the is like the empty calories of purpose. It's

like the Snickers bar. It's like it tastes really good. You feel really good when you're indulging it, but it it's it's bad for you. It's very corrosive.

>> Um, because ultimately politics is conditional. It's it's inherently

conditional. It's it's inherently conditional and manipulative. um and you if you put your entire identity and purpose into it um it can turn very

toxic. We're I'm going to talk more

toxic. We're I'm going to talk more about that in the next section uh about what toxic purpose is because it's actually a thing. Um but it's I just want to introduce that idea. It's

interesting because I I I became very curious about this idea that religiosity predicts purpose and kind of coming back to like knowing what we know about the the psychology of it, coming back a

little bit to the philosophy, you know, why is that? Why why do religious people feel so much more purpose in their lives when they're not necessarily doing more? Like they're

they're not professionally more successful like >> may not be more introspective even. they

don't like they're doing many of the same things that everybody else is doing.

>> And it turns out the uh the famous French sociologist Emil Durkheim like actually wrote a book about this back in 1912. It was called the elementary forms

1912. It was called the elementary forms of religious life and he he had a theory around this which is that religion had three core social functions.

>> There was a social cohesion component which is basically getting everybody on the same page at the same time, giving people stakes in the same thing. Um

there's social control uh which doesn't really need to be explained but then there it most importantly it was a provision for meaning and purpose. So we

talked about in the philosophy section that for something to feel significant it needs to a feel like there's something unique about you for it. B

there needs to be stakes or sacrifice and then c um it needs to be it needs to feel like it's going to outlive yourself. I think religion hits all

yourself. I think religion hits all three of those in a very profound and meaningful way. Number one, each

meaningful way. Number one, each religion comes to you and says you are special and unique and God loves you just the way you are. There's whatever

you are doing, whatever you are called to do in your life, God has decided that you are the only one who can do it.

Number two, religion asks something of you. It asks you to make a leap of

you. It asks you to make a leap of faith. Like by definition, you're asked

faith. Like by definition, you're asked to make a large commitment and be willing to sacrifice and and struggle and give things up for it. And then

number three, there's a promise of an afterlife of like if you do these things, you are going to live on after your death and you are going to um you know, you'll be immortalized in your

your faith and the things that you've chos chosen to do. And so in many ways it's almost like I feel like religion is uh and this this is where all the

religious listeners are going to get mad at me and call me an angry angry atheist, but guys like >> as I've joked before, I'm the I'm like the most pro- relligion atheist that

you'll ever meet. It's almost like the religions have like molded themselves perfectly to the psychological need of purpose. M

purpose. M >> they mimemetically evolve to fulfill all of these itches that we feel existentially inside of us. And um and

so it doesn't surprise me that like it it's just anecdotally, you know, I I grew up in Texas. I grew up in the Bible belt. I know a lot of very religious

belt. I know a lot of very religious people. I grew up with a lot of really

people. I grew up with a lot of really religious people. I can't tell you how

religious people. I can't tell you how many people who like have had absolutely nothing going on in their lives and then you talk to them and they're like, "Yeah, God's got a plan for me."

>> Mhm. I'm I'm good. Jesus is looking out for me. And I'm like, dude, you're

for me. And I'm like, dude, you're living in your truck. [laughter] Like,

you you just kicked the meth habit.

Like, your parents aren't talking to you. Like, God's got a plan, you know?

you. Like, God's got a plan, you know?

So, it's it's fascinating that, you know, whereas if you talk to like a a wealthy, highly educated, secular person out here in California, they feel

completely they've got so much going on in their life, they're like amazing job, amazing friends, all sorts of activities. is they're politically

activities. is they're politically active and they feel lost.

>> They're empty.

>> And they're like, "What's this for? I

don't know what I'm doing. I'm so burnt out." You know, and I was going to say,

out." You know, and I was going to say, "Maybe we'll do an episode on religion one day." And I just like I s I heard

one day." And I just like I s I heard [laughter] I heard I heard that distant echo of a thousand screams going, "No."

[laughter] >> Yeah.

>> But it just it feels and besides like nothing would be worse for us from a PR standpoint than publishing an episode called Religion Solved. But

>> [laughter] >> um but it's just religion just keeps coming up in all these episodes. And I do think there is something so psychologically

and philosophically important about religion. I mean obviously the vast

religion. I mean obviously the vast majority of the planet is religious.

>> It's one of the >> it's one of the few cross-cultural unanimous human experiences. It is it clearly is there is something extremely

fundamental about it in our lives. And

um and I I really do feel like there is something that whatever that is that is fundamental to our lives like it is a lot of it is very much around meaning and purpose.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned something along the way there briefly but I want to double click on a little bit is that religion asks something of you.

>> Um I think you know for religion was kind of waning. Yeah. I think in at least in a lot of western cultures for uh several decades and what you saw was the church in a lot of ways a lot of

different churches anyway were starting to try to like bend over backwards a little bit to accommodate things like ah you don't got to dress up to come to church you don't have to oh you don't have to stand up and sing if you don't want to >> we're going to play rock music

>> we're going to make this like [laughter] really easy for you and it just kept going down and down and down >> we've we've seen a reverse in that trend more people are are going back to religion now and I think it's because a

lot church has figured this out. It's

like, no, you we're going to ask something of you. We're going to ask you to give up some of these things. We're

going to show you that you need to sacrifice something.

>> Yeah. I And maybe we're just projecting or or it's wishful thinking, but there does seem to be a shift, >> a very subtle shift in the population

recently of like I think people are craving being asked of, >> right? Like so much of modern life for

>> right? Like so much of modern life for decades has just been we're going to remove all the friction from it. We're

going to make it so everything is going to be so easy and convenient and immediate and it's you're going to be satisfied all the time. And I think we're finally hitting that point where

we realize how how empty that is >> and and how addicted we are to it. And

and so I think I've definitely like I feel myself craving that in my own life of of like no, I I want to sacrifice for something. I wanna

something. I wanna >> I want to struggle for something. M

>> like I said, maybe it's wishful thinking, but I' I'd like to think that there's a little bit of a I've definitely noticed it among like my peers and cohorts and stuff like there >> there's an attitude shift that's happening.

>> We were just talking uh when we took a break here about how more people are really into health now. That's a very p purposeful activity becoming cool.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so I think there is I think people are realizing Yeah. that

that whole instant gratification remove all the friction, convenience, convenience, convenience at all cost. I

think we're starting to realize that that oh there's actually not a whole lot of purpose and meaning in that. Yeah. So

being asked being asked to do something and being asked to sacrifice something that's kind of like a oh >> oh we forgot about that didn't we think about too just think about how different

like our internal lives probably are from even just like a hundred years ago or 200 years ago.

>> Different planet >> completely different like mental landscape that we live in right now. And

a big part of that, you know, religion took up a lot of that mental space, but I think it was because of these kind of it asked certain things of you.

>> Yes.

>> And limited you in certain ways and some, you know, yes, there was a lot of problems with it, too. But

>> yeah, it's we'll get into the toxic purpose. I'm actually very excited to

purpose. I'm actually very excited to get into toxic purpose because not really even known much less discussed.

>> Um, >> so there is that element to it. But

yeah, there there is a lot of healthy purpose. It's funny because to go back

purpose. It's funny because to go back to the happiness episode, we talked about how there's kind of three components of happiness. There's

pleasure, uh, satisfaction, and then meaning or purpose.

>> And the pleasure is super immediate and short-term. So the pleasure, it's, you

short-term. So the pleasure, it's, you know, eating good food or scrolling on TikTok or uh watching a funny movie. Um,

satisfaction is kind of medium-term.

It's, you know, what have I done recently? Am I proud of something I'm

recently? Am I proud of something I'm working on? Um, do I feel good about my

working on? Um, do I feel good about my social life lately? It's kind of like a anywhere from a few months to a few years uh in time span. And then there's

meaning and purpose, which is extremely long term. It's something that you look

long term. It's something that you look back over decades and look ahead decades and ask yourself, how meaningful is my life? How meaningful is what I'm doing?

life? How meaningful is what I'm doing?

And I think a very crude way to summarize what's been happening in culture is that um we have been optimizing for pleasure and satisfaction

so much that we are are either complicating or sacrificing any sense of per sense of long-term purpose. And

the problem with focusing on the short and medium-term all the time is that they become treadmills. Mhm.

>> The same way that uh you know a good meal is is satisfying until you're hungry again. Um even life satisfaction

hungry again. Um even life satisfaction like it's the the the car you buy this year is only going to be satisfying until the next thing you want. And the

the promotion you get at your job is only going to be satisfying until you want the next promotion. And it it's you just end up on this constant hydonic treadmill that never ends. And once you

see that game you're playing, it's just demoralizing. You're like what's the

demoralizing. You're like what's the point? like what what am I doing all

point? like what what am I doing all this [ __ ] for? [laughter]

>> And uh and then yeah, you you start to see the wisdom of of you know uh Bubba in Texas living in his truck who's like, "God's got a plan. I'm I'm staying on

the on the path. Praise Jesus."

>> So [laughter] yeah, you know, Arthur Brooks talks a lot about um you know, you want to find more purpose and meaning in your life, put down your phone.

>> Yeah. for [laughter] one because and there there is part of that it's like you're crowding out this goes back to kind of the cognitive efficiency too.

You're crowding out all of the uh introspection all of the kind of internal stressors that you might have that would push you into oh go try this oh figure this out. So there's that that

and that ties back into the immediate gratification culture too. Yeah.

>> Um, go ahead.

>> I was just going to say, yeah, I think one way to look at that too is that it's just like a simply a a >> a function of of your brain's energy, you know, like the efficiency thing.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like having a being long-term oriented, it requires more brain power.

It [clears throat] requires more >> it's like it uses more parts of your brain, so it's metabolically more demanding, which requires more energy and effort, which requires you whereas

like Yeah. scrolling on TikTok. It's

like Yeah. scrolling on TikTok. It's

easy. It's It's comfortable and but you your brain can't do both at the same time.

>> Yeah. Okay. So, that this was supposed to be a psychology uh section [laughter] and it it really is. We started with the brain and we wound up on God, I guess.

Um which [laughter] like do we need to go back to religion?

People are going back to there there is a resurgence a little bit a bit of a revival if you will. Are there like I feel like we've been experimenting with secular ways >> um for a few a few dec well for a long

time really but especially in the last few decades >> um is there a non-religious way to go about this for people who are turned off by religion?

>> I don't know.

>> Yeah, I'm with you there.

>> I Yeah, I don't know. Uh you know, Bla1 Pascal wrote about a god-shaped hole inside every man. And it's it's funny because a lot of atheists like to kind of scoff at that and they're like,

"Well, you can just go volunteer and, you know, join your local PTA group."

And it's like, "No, dude. That's it's

not the [ __ ] same thing, >> right?" [laughter]

>> right?" [laughter] >> It's not the same thing.

>> So, I I really don't know. I I lean towards No. I do think that there there

towards No. I do think that there there potentially is some opportunity for some sort of um secular religion that's not corrosive. Um, you know, there there's a

corrosive. Um, you know, there there's a lot of kind of ideas around stuff like transhumanism and the kind of technological almost sci-fi type stuff of uh making humanity interplanetary.

Like I honestly think like one of the reasons Elon has been >> so successful is that he has this way of taking >> what seems like science fiction ideas

and and bringing like a like a religiosity to it of like this isn't just sci-fi. Like getting to Mars isn't

just sci-fi. Like getting to Mars isn't just sci-fi. It it is actually arguably

just sci-fi. It it is actually arguably the most morally important thing we can do for humanity. And

it's it's um and there's like a like almost a religious level of faith in it.

I do think like okay, now we're getting way off topic, but [laughter] um the big takeaways here is that the core value of purpose is it forces you to think long term. And the fact that

you're thinking long term, it's going to make you more efficient, more motivated and productive, >> better emotionally regulated, more resilient.

>> You're gonna get >> pretty much all the benefits that you could want from anything. Uh

>> is downstream of of a strong sense of purpose.

>> And it gives you an identity, an ego, like a an ego identity for yourself um and a social identity. It's going to help you filter who are the people you're going to get

along with, who are who are your connections, you know, where are you going to get your sense of connection and belongingness in the world. And uh

and as you pointed out, I think it's the loneliness epidemic may very well be just a a a second order effect of a purpose epidemic.

>> Yeah, definitely.

So before we wrap up this the psychological section and and move into kind of the dark side of purpose or the downsides of purpose, I do think it's worth taking a moment and talking about

age and phases of life. Uh and we often talk about age unsolved in many subjects that we've covered. Age is I'd say a minor factor, not a major factor, but I

do think with when it comes to purpose, age is a huge factor. like our the an average 16-year-old and an average 60-year-old are going to have extremely different senses of purpose in their

life and are going to be motivated by different missions and different things.

So, I have this old framework, you're very familiar with it. I I wrote an article, my god, at this point probably 12 years ago, uh called four stages of life. So, I I got very into

life. So, I I got very into developmental psychology as a hobbyist in my 20s. just weird, [laughter] >> which as 20-year-olds do, >> I got really excited, started reading a

lot of Robert Keegan and Levvenger and uh Jean Pier and um I actually I I find developmental psychology fascinating. I

I would say it is the most theory crafted segment of psychology because there's >> there's a lot of very fun theories and frameworks about how people age and

mature and develop. Um, but there's it's ext it's almost impossible to empirically test or verify a lot of these frameworks. So, uh,

these frameworks. So, uh, >> it's a lot of theory crafting, but it's a lot [clears throat] of fun. So, any

psych nerds out there who just want to geek out on like really fun theories, check out some Robert Keegan or Eric Ericson. Uh, so I wrote this article

Ericson. Uh, so I wrote this article back when I was really inspired by all the developmental psych. And, uh, it's loosely based on on Eric Ericson's framework. And Erikson had these eight

framework. And Erikson had these eight levels of uh identity definition. He

basically saw human development in terms of the the growth and establishment and the tensions that define the ego throughout life. And he believed that

throughout life. And he believed that these tensions played out in a predictable order across one's lifespan.

So to start out, stage one of life is mimicry. And if anybody who's been

mimicry. And if anybody who's been around a young child, uh they mimic everything you do. every movement,

everything you say, they want to. If

you're playing a game, they want to play the game. If you're uh messing around

the game. If you're uh messing around with a tool or an item in the living room, they want to mess around with it.

And this is very much just how humans learn. It's it's our instinct on how to

learn. It's it's our instinct on how to learn skills and understand information is very much just based on mimicking each other. Now, this mimicry, it

each other. Now, this mimicry, it extends well into I I would say adolescence in in in the sense that we want to be like other people. We want to dress like other people. We want to

listen to the same music that other people listen to. Much of most of our identity is very much defined by fitting in, being one of the crowd, being liked by our parents, by our teachers, by our

friends. Um, and not not feeling out of

friends. Um, and not not feeling out of place in any such way. Now obviously

some people never really leave this phase but this is the earliest and the the first phase of life and it and it serves a very practical role which is that you have to learn how to fit in society when you're young before you can

start deciding who you're going to be individually. So that's phase one. Uh

individually. So that's phase one. Uh

and ultimately the goal is to be self-sufficient and autonomous. And this

is this correlates to Erikson's stage of the trust versus autonomy tension uh in the young ego. You feel safe in that exploration, right? You feel supported

exploration, right? You feel supported like you're not going to alienate the people around you.

>> Exactly. [clears throat] Yeah.

>> And what's interesting about this is that in this first stage of life, I I would say your purpose is really just the approval of others. And as we're going to get to in the next section, uh the approval of others is a [ __ ]

terrible purpose to have in your [laughter] life.

>> It is it is by many definitions quite toxic. And I would say that most toxic

toxic. And I would say that most toxic people, the reason that they're toxic is because they're stuck in that first stage of life. They're stuck in that like I just want everybody to like me mindset, >> right?

>> More to come on that.

>> Okay.

>> So, if you are able to start exploring your identity and trying out different things and experiencing, you know, your autonomous self, you get into young adulthood. And this is the second stage

adulthood. And this is the second stage of life. And I I called this stage

of life. And I I called this stage self-discovery. um Eric Ericson uh

self-discovery. um Eric Ericson uh defined it by the tension between um a unique identity and then role confusion.

And so basically it's it's the tension the inherent tension that we all experience between self and society. Uh

between I want to be a total individual.

I want to express myself the way I want to express myself. I don't want to have to answer to anybody. I don't want have to be defined by anybody.

But [ __ ] I want to have friends. I want

to have a partner. [laughter] I do want to get along with people. So I can't just be a total [ __ ] >> And I think most of us go through this phase in our 20s and and early 30s. And

this this phase is very much defined by exploration, right? So it's you've now

exploration, right? So it's you've now earned the the psychological ability to be autonomous. You've earned the ability

be autonomous. You've earned the ability to potentially uh uh disappoint other people, be disapproved by other people, be disliked by other people. It doesn't

feel good obviously, but you're okay with it. Like you understand that that's

with it. Like you understand that that's just the price of of exploring who you are and who you want to be. And so this phase is very much defined by exploration. just getting out there,

exploration. just getting out there, trying new things, testing out yourself, pushing yourself, trying to find where your own limits are, investigating your

interests, um seeing where your talents are, trying to understand really who you are as a unique individual. And this

stage is incredibly important for for a number of reasons. I think first of all it's important because as we talked about earlier so much of the significance of having a purpose in life

is feeling that you are somehow uniquely suited for this pursuit that there is something unique and original about you >> that calls you quote unquote calls you

to this mission or this purpose in life.

You can't know what is unique about you until you've explored lots of things, until you've gone out on your own and and tried a bunch of crazy ideas. So,

it's extremely important in that sense.

And then I'd say secondly, it's important because you have to explore a lot of different paths and a lot of different options to really know what's worth committing to, what's worth taking

that leap of faith, what's worth uh investing yourself and sacrificing for.

If you've only, you see this a lot, like people who get married at an extremely young age, like people who meet their spouse when they're like 15 or whatever and then get divorced at 40, they go

[ __ ] crazy. And there's a very logical reason for this. Like all their 40-year-old friends are looking at, they're like, "What are they doing?

They're like going out and like taking drugs and going to the club and holy [ __ ] what happened?" But it makes a ton of sense because you need this exploration phase in your life.

[clears throat] It's that that 40-year-old person who uh has been married since been with the same person since they're 15. They don't know what they like. They don't know who they are.

they like. They don't know who they are.

They don't know uh who they have chemistry with, who they're actually compatible with. So, they need to go do

compatible with. So, they need to go do all that exploration that the average 20-year-old does, right?

>> Um and make all those mistakes and embarrass themselves multiple times to uh to to then be able to confidently commit to something else.

>> Yeah. You have this line in there. It

says we start to ask at this stage this discovery stage we start to ask what do I want and the answer is not always something pretty [laughter] and if you think about that like if you ask that when you're 20 versus when you're 40 yeah it just gets uglier and uglier if

you don't if you don't answer that earlier in your life but it's again it's a part of normal development and so it is >> better late than never but yeah >> it is and it's and I would say too that you know if you are if you have a loved

one or a child or a friend who's in this stage like the best thing you can do is just support their exploration. It's

kind of the same thing as >> uh stage one support their exploration but also encourage them to pay attention to the things that are maybe worth sacrificing for because the trap of

stage two is that you get you get shiny object syndrome, >> right? There's always some new exciting

>> right? There's always some new exciting adventure to go on and some new novel thing to try. Particularly people who are very high in openness to to new experiences um in terms of personality are very susceptible to getting trapped

in stage >> two. They're they're always just chasing

>> two. They're they're always just chasing the next high, the next adventure, the next uh sexy experience. And uh they never stop and really think about like

what should I go deep on? What should I really invest myself in and and and try to um give myself over to, >> right?

>> And the problem with these fun, sexy experiences is that there's a diminishing returns to them. You know,

it's like the first time you you go on a big trip abroad is life-changing, but like the 12th time you go, it's just another trip. Um, the first crazy party

another trip. Um, the first crazy party you go to is incredible and unforgettable. The 200th you go to is

unforgettable. The 200th you go to is just another Friday. So, it's all of these high novelty, high excitement experiences. um there's a there's a

experiences. um there's a there's a severe de dim diminishing returns to them and and like a drug you end up needing more and more and more to experience the same ex the same joy, the

same excitement, the same thrill and all that. So eventually you get to a point

that. So eventually you get to a point where you're like I need to invest in something. I need to go deep on

something. I need to go deep on something. I need to give up my other

something. I need to give up my other options and really commit to something.

Commit to someone. commit to a place, a vocation, uh a relationship.

>> And this is where you get into stage three. I call this the commitment stage.

three. I call this the commitment stage.

Um Eric Ericson called this the intimacy versus isolation uh tension. Um he also talked about the generativity versus stagnation. That that's more like later

stagnation. That that's more like later middle age, but generally stage three is like probably like late 20s or early 30s through I'd say your 50s or 60s. And

this is this is when it's this is really when you're like, I know who I am. These

are the things that I stand for. These

are the things that I care about. These

are the things that I'm good at. This is

what I'm giving my life to. And I would say stage three, if if if the purpose of stage one is social approval and and the purpose of stage two is is self-exloration,

the purpose of stage three, this is where you finally get that that larger purpose outside of yourself that >> it's it's like, okay, I've explored all the options. I know what I'm uniquely

the options. I know what I'm uniquely suited for, and I know how I can serve the world or or serve somebody outside of myself. Let me give myself to that.

of myself. Let me give myself to that.

And and so I would say that really like healthy long-term purpose really just shows up in stage three. You know, stage one is say is about all about safety. Uh

stage two is all about fun. But safety

and fun are both unsustainable. Like you

can't guarantee those things in the long run. And so eventually you arrive at

run. And so eventually you arrive at stage three and you're like, okay, what am I what what is more important than my own safety and my own fun? That's really

a profound moment I would say in each person's psychological development. So

here, this is where we get into the trade-off for purpose is sacrifice. You

have to give up all of the things that you could have been and you could have done. All of those sexy opportunities

done. All of those sexy opportunities and potential selves that you were exploring in stage two. Once you get to stage three, you kind of have to let them die. You you have to let them go. I

them die. You you have to let them go. I

think some of this too, I mean these stages aren't purely mapped to ages, but I do think simply being alive longer

shows you that like it is so hard to accomplish a single dream.

>> And and I think once you get into your 30s and 40s, you realize how much energy and effort and time it takes to even like get close to one thing you deeply care about. uh that you re you look you

care about. uh that you re you look you finally look around you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna have to let go of some of these other dreams that I've I've held on to because otherwise I'm just gonna drive myself crazy." This phase

[clears throat] is also very much about building. You're building a career,

building. You're building a career, you're building a family, um you're building a community, you're maybe building towards a cause or uh some form

of activism that you care deeply about.

It's you're really trying to make your dent into the world, so to speak. And um

and this is this is when you're just investing as much energy as possible.

>> And basically to sum it up, the trade-off for meaning is sacrifice. And you have to give up

is sacrifice. And you have to give up what you could have had for what you must commit to. Okay.

>> Now, eventually when you're in this building phase, this stage of commitment and and giving yourself to some some greater cause, you eventually hit a

point where you start running out of energy and your marginal contribution to whatever you're working towards gets less and less and less. You get older,

you get more tired, the world is moving quicker. Um, things are more complicated

quicker. Um, things are more complicated than they used to be. and you start to realize that like, hey, I don't have a ton of time left, um, maybe it's time to slow down a little bit. And this is

where you get into stage four, which is legacy. And essentially, once you've

legacy. And essentially, once you've built something, the question then becomes, how long is this going to last once you're gone?

And this is where really contemplating your mortality starts to kick in on a real level. Like, by this point, you're

real level. Like, by this point, you're near retirement age. You've probably had some friends who have passed away.

You've had a number of family members who have passed away. Um you're you're really thinking about the last couple decades of your life. What are you going to do with that time? You you've you

potentially have kids and grandchildren by this point. Um and you you start to become deeply concerned about the future, the future generations after you're gone. It's really shifting from

you're gone. It's really shifting from instead of thinking about like how can I change the world in some way, how can I support the things that I've already changed.

>> Yeah.

>> How can I maintain the work that I've done and ma make sure that like it's going to be okay when I'm not here anymore?

>> Like that immortality project we talked about right?

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> Focused on that at that point. Yeah.

>> And it makes sense. I mean, it's like if you spent you at by this point, you've spent your whole [ __ ] life giving yourself to something, whether it's a a

career or a cause or a family, >> and you just want to make sure it's going to be okay. [laughter]

>> Like, you all this time, all this energy, all this stress, >> you literally gave your life to it, right?

>> Uh, so yeah, it's really important that you feel like it's going to be okay when you're gone.

>> So, this is stage four. And in for Erikson's framework, he had two different tensions that kind of define this. One was generativity versus

this. One was generativity versus stagnation and then one was integrity versus despair. There's a tension inside

versus despair. There's a tension inside each person of like did I do a good job or did I waste my time and it's I would

say the purpose that defines this phase is really um is really that immortality project just making sure everything lives on. Now, an important thing to

lives on. Now, an important thing to keep in mind is that transitioning from one stage into the next is is usually not fun, right? [laughter]

>> Because to transition from from one stage to another, it means that previous stage has to fail you in some way.

>> And so, we talked about Victor Frankle's existential vacuum. You basically have

existential vacuum. You basically have to experience an existential vacuum.

It's basically the thing that has given you purpose for so many years has to stop giving you purpose. And it forces you to look around and ask yourself, "Oh [ __ ]

how could I do this better?

Let's let's re-evaluate all of the things that I care about and really think deeply about like what I'm doing with my time." This is why you often see too people progress from one stage to

another um because of a a severe negative event. um whether it's a a

negative event. um whether it's a a trauma or a death of somebody close to them or a loss of a relationship or a loss of a a career there there needs to

be to some degree a death of your identity to free up the space to create the new the new purpose and the new sense of to to move on to the next to

the next stage um and start focusing on creating the next version of yourself.

So it's these stage transitions, they're not pretty, they're not fun. Uh and it's it's it's experiencing the loss of purpose in one's life so that you can go

build a new purpose. It is necessary but it is uh it's often very painful and bleak in the moment.

>> Yeah. I've had like several people in my life recently, you know, a lot of us are a lot of people in my life I think are in some sort of transition. I don't know if they're transitioning between phases necessarily or just deepening the phase

that they're in, >> but a lot of it does come down, you know, when you're in your 30s, 40s. Uh

Maybe you've had a couple kids, maybe you've had a relationship, maybe you had a relationship that's failed at that point. And I've had several people come

point. And I've had several people come to me lately and like, I don't like, who the hell am I even at this point, too?

And I'm like, oh, you're going through a transition. You're you're transitioning

transition. You're you're transitioning [clears throat] and you're you're >> into a new phase of life that um it needs a definition and a purpose. And

that's a good thing. Like I this is not helpful to people.

>> Nobody Nobody likes hearing that.

>> Nobody likes hearing that. But I'm like, no, no, no. This is a good thing. This

is, you know, we talked about Casemir's Drowski at one point. And he talks about this positive disintegration and if you can achieve positive disintegration which is you know yeah your identity fails you from the last stage

>> that you >> there's this opportunity like that's where the growth happens is in this mess right and of course it doesn't help a lot of people to hear that although some people have come to me like oh actually

no that's yeah okay it's good to know that other people are going through this too and all of that and it's normal and >> I think some of it is is how it's framed I I so to get on my soap box for a

minute one of biggest issues with the self-help industry is that they package and frame uh transformation and and significant personal change as this like

as a party as there's like [ __ ] confetti falling from the ceiling.

>> Yeah. It's like the new you and it's like streamers are going off and dance music is pumping through the speakers and it's like no man >> that's not how it works.

>> That's not how it works. Like

significant life change is not a party.

It's usually grueling, painful, and and often very bleak and confusing. And um

the way I I've described it sometimes is is that people forget or they don't realize that if you are going to make a significant personal change, >> that means that you have to lose part of

your identity first. And losing any part of your identity means that there's going to be some component of grief.

>> There's pain there >> in that process. It's like you're literally watching a piece of yourself die.

>> And so you have to grieve it. You have

to miss it. You have to go through the confusion and the anger of like who were you? Why did you spend so much time on

you? Why did you spend so much time on that thing? Maybe there's some shame or

that thing? Maybe there's some shame or some regret. And then you have to go

some regret. And then you have to go through the confusing process of looking for the next phase of your life or the next identity that you're going to inhabit, the next purpose that's going to define you for for the next the next

stage of your life. And that's very confusing and daunting and and overwhelming and and there's a lot of uncertainty of like am I doing the right thing? Is this the should I this be what

thing? Is this the should I this be what I care about? is am I am I wasting my time again? So on and so forth. So it's

time again? So on and so forth. So it's

uh personal change is not a [ __ ] walk in the park and it's definitely not a dance party and uh it definitely doesn't come from uh strangers uh massaging you

uh in in in a conga line uh while taking Iawaska.

>> So now [snorts] that we've established that >> later [laughter] >> Yeah.

>> more at nine after the news.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I I think though a big takeaway from this uh and from this article, you know, it's one of my favorite articles you ever wrote, but um it it's this again, this is a normal process and like

your purpose is going to change over time. So those people who have come to

time. So those people who have come to me and they're like, you know, I've I've been a parent, I've been a spouse, I've been whatever in their jobs too for all this time and now I don't know who I am and they think that like I've wasted the

last whatever 101 15 years. I'm like no, no, no. That was that was part of the

no, no. That was that was part of the process. that was your purpose for that

process. that was your purpose for that time was to like raise your family, to love your kids, to you know dedicate yourself to a spouse and even if it didn't work out like that's not a it's

not a waste, right? That's just part of the process. And I know it's painful to

the process. And I know it's painful to hear. And

hear. And >> I think what what I've observed tends to happen with people like that is is like when you're in that existential vacuum, >> you [clears throat] do feel like it was a waste. Like I definitely felt this

a waste. Like I definitely felt this when I came out of my I I went from stage two to stage three >> in my early 30s and I I had a a very long period of multiple years

>> being like I wasted so much [ __ ] time. I partied so much. I did so much

time. I partied so much. I did so much stupid [ __ ] I I wasted my time chasing so many girls. Like I and I felt like a a pretty deep level of regret and even a little bit of shame around it. I was

like, man, what was wrong with me? Like

what a [ __ ] waste. But eventually

eventually I think once you kind of get comfortably into the next phase >> uh and and comfortably situated with your next purpose, you start to realize

that like, oh wait, no, I actually I I gained a lot of experiences. I built

skills. I have an understanding of the world that I I can use now that that was very unique from what I did then. Um,

and so I think you kind of you almost have to like and actually I think coincident it's been a long time since I read Drowski, but I I believe in Drowsky's framework he talks about how part of the process is you have to

disassociate from your former self. You

basically you almost have to like disown your former identity and be like, "Fuck that guy. I'm never talking to him

that guy. I'm never talking to him again." to to build the new identity.

again." to to build the new identity.

But then once the new identity is is successfully built and you feel secure in it, then you can kind of invite the uh the disowned part of yourself back in and reintegrate it and be like, you know, you weren't so bad. You're all

right.

>> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Deoski was

not a fan of like kind of like tinkering around the edges. It was more like let it all let it all go.

>> You see this a lot, too. I would say generally speaking the people who just exited a phase of their life tend to be the most judgmental and critical of other people in that phase. So like if

you Yeah. So it's it's you know people

you Yeah. So it's it's you know people >> people who just quit all the partying tend to be extremely judgmental of people doing all the partying and much more so than the people who never partied at all. It's it's very interesting.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get that beginners kind of like oh the beginner's expertise is like what I call it. You think you know everything when you start when you find something out new and it's like no actually you're yeah you've got a long

ways to go yourself but [music] yeah >> so now we've come to the juicy chapter >> the very juicy chapter the dark side of purpose uh I'm excited for this because

I again I feel like nobody talks about this you don't like everywhere you read about purpose it's just rah rah find your purpose you're meant for something great you know oh my god This is so

meaningful.

There's a dark side to purpose and I would say there are two ways that purpose can become unhealthy for an individual and we're going to cover them

both in quite a bit of detail here. So

the first one I want to talk about is I I personally think of it as like burnout, but I think it's actually much deeper than that. So what often happens

is that people find something that they're very passionate about that they it gives them a lot of purpose and meaning and they give too much of

themselves to it. Like they go too hard on it. What ends up happening is that

on it. What ends up happening is that they actually end up destroying a lot of other parts of their lives. I I'll give you a couple simple examples of this. So

one of the best bodybuilders ever, I think he won Mr. Olympia eight times is a guy named Ronnie Coleman. absolutely

massive dude. Like if you ever want to just like gawk at a dude who was gigantic and lifting massive weights, uh there's tons of videos of him on on

YouTube of him at kind of at his peak in the early 2000s just like being a [ __ ] monster. The guy won Mr. Olympia eight times, was the best bodybuilder in the world, arguably the best bodybuilder

who's ever lived. And it's crazy cuz that he can like barely walk now. He's

had so many hip and knee replacements and surgeries um that he has to walk with crutches. He's like all like bent

with crutches. He's like all like bent out of shape. He struggles to get get into a car, get out of a car, get up on

stage. His body is completely destroyed.

stage. His body is completely destroyed.

And it's to me it's kind of a a a cautionary tale of going too allin on something, right? Like it's this guy is

something, right? Like it's this guy is >> he's probably lowered his life expectancy by multiple decades by how hard he pushed himself in the gym and how many steroids he put into his body

and how much he dam damaged his bones and skeletal structure and everything.

Uh you see this a lot with athletes. Um

you see it quite a bit with uh performing artists as well. Uh my wife is a huge Lady Gaga fan and if you've ever seen Lady Gaga live, she she puts on an amazing stage show. She does all

sorts of like acrobatic stunts and crazy [ __ ] Um but there's an interesting Netflix documentary about her and it's crazy. She is in pain like 24/7. like

crazy. She is in pain like 24/7. like

she's got all sorts of joint issues, hip issues, back issues, and it's just from all the crazy stage show stuff that she's done. The amount of touring that

she's done. The amount of touring that she's done, um like the intense dancing, like she has a small frame, and she just puts herself through so much for so many

years. She she's basically wearing

years. She she's basically wearing herself down. So, these are like some

herself down. So, these are like some celebrity examples, but I think you see this quite a bit. You know, the the workaholics who just love their job, so they stay at the office. uh until 10 PM every night and they never see their

family and kids. Um you know, there are people who are so obsessed with a hobby that they they spend all of their money on it, all of their savings on it. Um I had a friend

who who basically blew his savings on a bunch of classic cars and fixing them up and souping up their engines and stuff and it's it was completely irresponsible [laughter] and he's like he's now paying

the financial consequences for that. So

you see you see this take many many forms that purpose when left unchecked you can go too hard on it >> overidentify with it right

>> you can overidentify with it you can you can invest too much of yourself into it um and and I think the the best way to

think about this is that uh is that you want to diversify your sources of purpose in your life that you the same way you don't want to put your entire your life savings into a single stock.

>> You want to like spread it out over over many many different stocks and mutual funds and bonds and all this other stuff to minimize volatility in your in in your financial life.

>> You want to diversify where you invest your purpose in your >> actual life to minimize emotional and psychological volatility. Right? So, you

psychological volatility. Right? So, you

want to you don't just want to get all of your purpose and meaning from your job. You also want to get it from your

job. You also want to get it from your relationships. You want to get it from

relationships. You want to get it from uh your health and your hobbies and your pursuits and your community and maybe a cause that you believe deeply in. Um

because otherwise like a you're you're actually at some point you're just going to go too hard and you're going to start hurting yourself. Uh, and B, you are

hurting yourself. Uh, and B, you are opening yourself up that like if all of your all of your purpose eggs are in

your career basket and suddenly the CEO shows up one day and it's like, "Guess what? Your job's replaced by AI."

what? Your job's replaced by AI."

[clears throat] >> Um, >> yeah, you're not going to have a good time.

>> Yeah, [laughter] >> it's going to be pretty rough.

>> I think there's still going to be a certain type of person out there that's going to say, "But yeah, but Mark, that's the cost. That's that's the cost.

That's the price you have to pay for this, right?" And I I yeah, to a certain

this, right?" And I I yeah, to a certain degree it is if that's like the level of fame or success or whatever it is that you want.

>> But I still don't think you like people don't still don't grasp the full cost of that.

>> Yeah.

>> Like over a long long period of time.

Just another more extreme example too of this one that I found was this artist named uh I think it's Paul Gagwin or Gagwin or something. He was a French um uh finance guy back in the I think it

was the 1800s or something like that.

Um, and but he loved painting. He love

he was an artist. He had a family. He

had a wife. He had kids. Um, there was a market crash that happened and he said, "Fuck it. I'm done with finance. I'm

"Fuck it. I'm done with finance. I'm

going to go be a painter." And so he left his family, went to Tahiti and started painting there. While he was there, he got into um several different relationships with a bunch of teenage

Tahesian girls. Okay.

Tahesian girls. Okay.

>> Um, and but he made amazing art. He's

like, "No, this is my purpose to be be a painter. I'm going to leave everything.

painter. I'm going to leave everything.

I'm going to blow up my entire life.

>> Yeah.

>> And go do this thing. He's produced some of these paintings that he has now, they they're in some of the most famous museums in the world. He's considered

one of the best artists of the last couple centuries.

>> Um and that's how he achieve that's the cost. So he left behind the like he

cost. So he left behind the like he didn't send money back or anything like that to his family. They were in financial ruin when he left. He blew up his life.

>> Deadbeat dad.

>> He was a deadbeat dad and but he but he followed his purpose. He found his purpose. He followed his passion. Right.

purpose. He followed his passion. Right.

>> Yeah. Well, it's funny because it's there have been interviews of Ronnie Coleman and and he >> people say like, "Do you regret pu pushing yourself so hard?" And he was like, "I regret not pushing myself harder."

harder." >> Yeah.

>> Like he has zero regrets. And it is funny cuz most of the people like this, they're like, "It was worth it." Like

Yeah. Michael Jordan.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's like they wouldn't take it back, which is interesting. And and I do think it kind of lends itself to just the the fact that is not stated enough that anybody who achieves extraordinary

success is not a balanced person by definition. They are not a balanced

definition. They are not a balanced person. Like to to reach that level of

person. Like to to reach that level of achievement in any >> profession or dimension like you you have to be allin to an unhealthy degree.

I [clears throat] think >> I struggle with this a lot. Uh as you know I'm a workaholic. Um, it's funny cuz once I get really into what I'm

doing um I struggle to find time for other aspects of my life and I I also find I I find it difficult to justify spending

time in other aspects of my life. So to

use myself as as an example, first of all, I love what I do. Absolutely love

it. I enjoy it almost every day. Uh, I

feel like I really have found what I am uniquely suited to do. like I do have this cluster of unique skills and talents um that that can serve the world

in a very very useful and special way >> and [clears throat] that is deeply fulfilling. I feel like an immense

fulfilling. I feel like an immense amount of privilege that just to be have a platform like this and have an audience like this and have this opportunity to like share these ideas and help people and and and hear their

stories and all this stuff. It's it's

like it's an extremely powerful thing.

And it's funny because I'm also a workaholic. So, because I have such a

workaholic. So, because I have such a great purpose and such a strong mission and it and I can look out and say I'm helping the world, it's so [ __ ] easy

to justify >> working a 14-hour day or ditching my friends on the weekend to, you know, outline another podcast or whatever. And

it's it's tough. I have to like really watch myself. So, the the big

watch myself. So, the the big announcement that I teased at the top of the show. Um, and I've mentioned it a

the show. Um, and I've mentioned it a couple times here. I started a second company this year and it was either insane or or brilliant or maybe both, but I've burnt myself out so hard this year.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Worked way too hard. Uh a lot of my gripes about uh uh you know my my lack of social life is probably directly traceable to the fact that I am working

on two companies at the same time. It's

funny because that the second business felt so important and so necessary uh that I couldn't not do it [clears throat] >> and and ironically the name of that

business is called purpose. So

just to give people a little bit of context here, I personally I see my purpose in life as uh improving the quality of personal development and mental health advice. By

and large, you're very familiar with this research, but most people are not.

By and large, best modalities that we have, all the best therapies, all the best interventions, all the best like group therapies and and medications and and and everything,

the hit rate is terrible. Like it's it's imagine going to a doctor and uh being prescribed a medicine and then asking the doctor, uh, is this going to fix my problem? And he says, well, 40 to 45% of

problem? And he says, well, 40 to 45% of the time it does.

>> Oh, but 10% of the time it might make it worse. That's basically our best therapy

worse. That's basically our best therapy right now. [laughter]

right now. [laughter] Like after a hundred [ __ ] years, that is that is our best psychological intervention that we have found. So

there is still so much work to be done.

And that doesn't even get into like all of the [ __ ] grifting and scummy advice and cheesy [ __ ] that that exists in the self-help industry. So, I

am extremely passionate about this mission and this cause and like I said, I feel like I'm uniquely suited and in a unique position to have real impact on

this. Uh, and so I've I've thrown myself

this. Uh, and so I've I've thrown myself into it. I've like given I've basically

into it. I've like given I've basically given my life to it at this point. About

last year, I started realizing I I started running into a lot of people in my life who uh were doing therapy on chat GBT >> and I became very interested in it and

also a little bit skeptical. And so I started messing around with chat GPT and Claude and Gemini and asking a bunch of life questions and whatnot.

And it's super interesting because on the one hand uh the the AI does have a lot of great information. Like it is it is the AIS are essentially trained on

the entire corpus of psychological literature. Like it's all in there. I've

literature. Like it's all in there. I've

checked it's all in there. Every piece

of major piece of research, all the latest findings, all the all the studies and data sets, it's all in there. Not to

mention like literally thousands and thousands of hours of therapy transcripts as well. So the information is in there. The the problem is is that the wisdom is not. So famously chatgpt

will just kind of kiss your ass and validate whatever you feel. Um it will reinforce delusions. It will uh

reinforce delusions. It will uh encourage you to not question your assumptions. Um it won't challenge your

assumptions. Um it won't challenge your beliefs. It's basically uh a yes man.

beliefs. It's basically uh a yes man.

And [clears throat] if you take somebody who is experiencing like very real issues and struggles in their life, being a yes man is not always helpful.

In fact, it's often not.

So, I became I became extremely excited about the potential of what AI could do in this space. I felt like if you could fix the psychopancy, the yes manning, if

you could actually get an AI to like challenge you and and dig into your assumptions and force you to think about uncomfortable things that you don't necessarily want to think about, the

potential would be incredible. Here's

the biggest problem in all of this space in general is that what is generalizable and scalable, you know, like the the sort of stuff that we do on this podcast

and and that I do in my books, >> you have to generalize it for a broad audience. And so the the potential

audience. And so the the potential impact it can have on each individual person is is extremely limited because you're ultimately it's not personalized, right? the things that work the best,

right? the things that work the best, which is essentially a really good therapy modality with a really good therapist, is extremely personalized.

And that doesn't scale because it's it's like 10% of the therapists drive 80 90% of the results. And there's just not enough therapists. And there's

enough therapists. And there's definitely not enough good therapists.

>> So, the thing that really works doesn't scale, and the thing that scales really works just a little bit. If you

train the AI to give excellent personalized advice that can scale across millions and millions of people.

So I became extremely interested in this topic and uh eventually met my co-founder Raj. Raj has been building AI

co-founder Raj. Raj has been building AI businesses for over 10 years. Uh he's

had multiple successful exits. He's

extremely passionate about this this issue this space. Um and so we started working in February and uh and the result is is purpose. uh which is an

app. It's coming out this week. I'm

app. It's coming out this week. I'm

extremely excited about it. I I feel very good about it. Um you know, so some of the early results in beta tests and stuff that we've done with people uh has been incredible. At one point when we

been incredible. At one point when we were beta testing, we we actually created a metric to track how what percentage of our beta testers had cried during while using the app and it was at I think at some point it got up to like

20% or 25%. [laughter]

>> Weird stat. There was one point There was one point I came home and my wife was crying and I was like, "What's wrong?" And she was like, "I was talking

wrong?" And she was like, "I was talking to your app." [laughter]

>> Oh god. [gasps]

>> And I was like, "Okay." Uh,

>> but it was good. I mean, these are good cries. These are good cries. Um, it

cries. These are good cries. Um, it

we're extremely excited. It's it's it's not perfect. There's still a lot of work

not perfect. There's still a lot of work to do, but like the early results are are extremely good. Since this is the launch announcement, uh the the the there is if people go to

purpose.appsolved,

purpose.appsolved, um we are offering a free course on finding your purpose if you sign up for the app. The reason I'm bringing all

the app. The reason I'm bringing all this up, by the way, is that [clears throat] as we've kind of discussed a little bit in this episode, I think almost all like most of the

problems that that we're experiencing in the 21st century are downstream of a lack of purpose. M

>> I think the loneliness epidemic. I think

a lot of the anxiety and depression issues. Um I think a lot of people's uh

issues. Um I think a lot of people's uh insecurities and a lot of the political extremism. Like I think a lot of this

extremism. Like I think a lot of this stuff is just downstream of a lack of purpose. And the frustrating thing

purpose. And the frustrating thing throughout my career is that a per because purpose is so personal because values are so personal. It's so hard to

scale useful advice and interventions across lots and lots of people. That's why the focus of of the app has been purpose. Like it is

essentially an AI trained and optimized to help people find their purpose. When

you onboard, the product tries to learn your personal your personality traits, your talents, your interests as soon as possible. And then through conversation,

possible. And then through conversation, it tries to understand the context, the world that you're living in, the situation you're in. And then it also learns and understands your values as soon as possible. And basically, the AI

is trained to take here's the person, here's what they care about, and here's their life situation, get them into alignment with their values as soon as

possible, and challenge any belief that is interfering them from doing that.

Because as most of us know, our inability to to live out our values, it's not because we don't want to.

>> It's [clears throat] because we have some [ __ ] or false assumption or nonsense in our heads that is like we're preventing ourselves. We're sabotaging

preventing ourselves. We're sabotaging ourselves in some way. So, the the the goal of the app is to remove that self-sabotage. Like I said,

self-sabotage. Like I said, purpose.app/solve,

purpose.app/solve, if you want to check it out, the whole reason I brought this up in this section is cuz I I have probably fallen into this this year. I've watched my social

relationships suffer. I've watched my my

relationships suffer. I've watched my my personal and family relationship suffer.

Um I funded this company with my own money. So I've watched my bank account

money. So I've watched my bank account suffer. And my my own mental health

suffer. And my my own mental health instability has suffered quite a bit.

And and it's funny because every step of the way it was so easy to justify everything with I'm in this unique position. I have this unique platform.

This is such a a unique and special opportunity to solve a huge major issue in the world.

I would regret it if I didn't do it. And

like Ronnie Coleman, I'm I will sit here and tell you I don't regret doing it.

[laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. [gasps]

>> Yeah. Yeah. [gasps]

>> As we talked about, purpose requires sacrifice and it requires struggle. And

the more purpose you indulge, the more the greater the sacrifice and the greater the struggle. So, uh, that's not to tell people like don't do these things. Um, but I think it's it's

things. Um, but I think it's it's important to just understand like I think I'm wired in such a way that like I'm probably wired like Ronnie Coleman.

Like I'm like >> Mhm. I'd rather do it and not regret it

>> Mhm. I'd rather do it and not regret it and and suffer for a decade. Um than,

you know, than sit around in my 50s and 60s with a very well- balanced life and uh lots of friends and family around me wondering, I wonder what I could have done if I worked more.

>> Right. [laughter]

That's the other side of the cost though right?

>> Yeah.

>> Because I feel like I have much more balance in my life than you do. And it

it I mean it bears out in the results as well though too. But I mean I I get a lot of purpose out of my work, but I also have a lot of very good relationships that I get purpose out of like all of that.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but yeah, there is always two in the back of my mind. I'm like, well, you know, if I give a few of these things up, I could do this over here. Yeah.

>> So, I think the lesson really out of this is just that awareness.

>> Yeah.

>> Like you're gonna choose one of those paths probably.

>> Um >> and there's just costs and benefits to each. Yeah.

each. Yeah.

>> And Yeah.

>> I mean, congratulations. like I've been seeing all this year kind of, you know, this has been behind the scenes for the most part.

>> Um, and I I' I've seen when you have struggled with it. Um, but you just kept going.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> It's just like, god damn, he's a machine. And and that's when it comes in

machine. And and that's when it comes in where I'm like, maybe I should be doing more, too. But like to put put it in

more, too. But like to put put it in perspective, um, this it's awesome. I'm

super excited for it, too. And congrats

on it. This is it's going to be really cool. So, yeah.

cool. So, yeah.

>> Thank you.

>> Purpose.app/solved.

>> Go check it out. free free course on purpose included if you sign up in the next two weeks.

>> Go check it out. There is one more aspect of this this side this dark side of the per of purpose that I want to talk about.

>> So it it's if it's not regret it it will be burnout and I as you know I've burnt myself out multiple times throughout my career. Even if you're locked in, even

career. Even if you're locked in, even if you're all in, even if you're like I don't care, it's worth it. at some point you run yourself into the ground and I

think people who overinvest you know again who don't diversify their purpose I think I think the most practical argument for diversifying your purpose across your life other than you know minimizing volatility is that the

different sources of purpose sustain each other right so if you've got a great social life you've got a great place to go unwind and feel supported so that when you come back to work you

you're energized and fresh um if you've got good health habits and and good hobbies and interests and you're super active, like that's going to fuel your ability to, you know, think harder about

problems and solve more issues and and work with more people. And so what I the problem I often run into and many people run into um when you're all in on just

one thing is that you you burn yourself out. You don't get those places to

out. You don't get those places to recharge. You don't get that emotional

recharge. You don't get that emotional support when you need it. You're not

making time for your health and and your habits. Um and and so you have to be

habits. Um and and so you have to be very very careful about that. That's one

thing that like it's funny. It's it's

been really good with Raj, my co-founder. Um for both of us, it's not

co-founder. Um for both of us, it's not our first company. And so we've both like made a lot of these mistakes before. And and one of the things he and

before. And and one of the things he and I have talked about is that dude, if you feel yourself burning out, like just you don't even have to say anything. You

know, go take three days, four days, right?

If you if you're not going to the gym or not sleeping well, like for the [ __ ] sake, go home. Go home. Go to the gym.

Like it's we both we've both done this to ourselves before. And so we both understand that like you have to take care of yourself outside of work, >> otherwise you're not going to be able to keep coming to work. So

>> I have been a little bit better about it this year. Like I I would say that I've

this year. Like I I would say that I've you know I've maintained some degree of of like fitness and health routine and I have managed to like sneak a weekend off

here and there and you know a little mini vacation uh once or twice.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but yeah, it's been hard. I'm very

excited to be on the other side of this launch.

>> No. [laughter] Good. Good. Yeah. And

there's I mean there's there's people on our team too. I've had to have this conversation with them as well. There's

people who just like I'll work all night and all weekend and I'm like stop. Yes,

>> please. Just I don't want you burning out [laughter] >> and and and presenting us like stop.

>> We can post the video a day late. It's

not the end of the world. [laughter]

>> So there there's some like part of purpose is being able to rest and and have the perspective. So

>> absolutely.

>> All right. The second dark side of purpose. This is what I've been calling

purpose. This is what I've been calling toxic purpose or or alluding to as toxic purpose. Um this is going to be the the

purpose. Um this is going to be the the spicier one. And I don't want to fall

spicier one. And I don't want to fall too deep into it. We've got some episodes coming up on boundaries and relationships in the next couple months.

I think we're going to get much deeper into it there. But toxic purpose, I think the crudest way to put it, >> and this is going to sound awful, but >> Stalin had a very strong sense of

purpose. Hitler had a very strong sense

purpose. Hitler had a very strong sense of purpose, >> right?

>> Uh Ted Bundy probably had a strong sense of purpose.

>> Purpose can be utilized like pretty much anything in psychology.

purpose can be used for good and it can be used for bad. It is ethically neutral. Obviously, it's more

neutral. Obviously, it's more sustainable and healthier when it when your your purpose is a healthy form of purpose. But when people experience a

purpose. But when people experience a lack of purpose and they're presented a toxic and unhealthy form of purpose, they will take it. It is ultimately it's

a vacuum that needs to be filled in our minds. And if the only thing that can

minds. And if the only thing that can fill it is very toxic and unhealthy, we'll fill it with something that's toxic and unhealthy. So, first to define what toxic purpose is, I think it's it's

probably useful to go back to philosophy for for a moment. So, we talked about this idea of means and ends. So, there's

this long chain of of means. you know,

you do X so you can achieve Y and you you want to achieve Y so you can get Z and then Z is ultimately the end and of itself that you that's actually your purpose that's the thing that you deeply care about. So, philosophers, as I as I

care about. So, philosophers, as I as I said, uh pretty much everybody in the Western cannon at some point has commented in some shape or form on on teology or this this chain of means to

ends. And to me, I think probably the

ends. And to me, I think probably the person who did it in the most profound way or or the way that is like impacted me personally the most um is Emanuel

Kant. And Kant's Kant's a funny guy

Kant. And Kant's Kant's a funny guy because Kant tried to basically Kant took the observations of Hume and

Spinosa and Deart before him and acknowledged that yes, you cannot derive a a should from a is. And uh yes, just because something is occurring in the natural world, like you can't really say

that it therefore should occur in the natural world that that it's that's morality is a uh it seems to be untethered from physical observable reality and and there's not really

anything we can like logically deduce from these observations, but he wasn't deterred. So Kant still believed that

deterred. So Kant still believed that there should be some objective morality and he spent a lot of time and wrote a lot of books uh trying to argue that there was and I think today he is

probably one of the two or three most significant moral thinkers uh in western history. Now Kant had a lot of ideas he

history. Now Kant had a lot of ideas he they were called categorical imperatives. I'm not going to go too

imperatives. I'm not going to go too into them right now. um they are pretty nerdy and abstract and philosophical, but but there is one in particular that

I think is particularly profound and I was very drawn to it because as somebody who really started their career in and dating relationship advice and and forming healthy relationships and

maintaining healthy relationships, when I came across this idea of cons, I was like, "Holy [ __ ] that explains everything. that explains every toxic

everything. that explains every toxic interaction and it explains every healthy relationship in like a single sentence. And that single sentence Kant

sentence. And that single sentence Kant called the formula of humanity. And he

basically said this. He said that one of these categorical imperatives, one of these objective truths of morality is that you never treat another human being

as a means to any other end. You always

treat human beings as the end and of themselves. Essentially what that means

themselves. Essentially what that means is that you never use people for any other gain. It is people are always the

other gain. It is people are always the ultimate end goal. Everything is for the sake of another human being or for yourself. And this idea is so incredibly

yourself. And this idea is so incredibly powerful because like all of our moral intuitions flow downstream of it. For

example, let's say I lie to you and convince you to give me $1,000. I think

everybody would agree that that is morally not good. I should not do that.

Kant would point out that the reason that is morally wrong that we all seem to agree that I shouldn't do that is because in that case I am using you as a

means to the thousands which is my end.

Whereas if I'm being honest with you, I am treating you as an end and of yourself. Um stealing.

yourself. Um stealing.

If I steal something from you, I'm using you as a means to an end to get the thing that I'm stealing from you. And

this flows down to basic communication as well. If you look at manipulative

as well. If you look at manipulative behavior, if you are trying to convince somebody to do something for you, if you are trying to influence somebody to to

to feel guilty to give you more affection or validation, if you are gaslighting somebody into thinking that they're wrong, all of these things are examples of using a person as a means to

some other end. A simpler way of thinking about it is that healthy relation in healthy relationships people treat each other unconditionally.

They there is no if then within the relationship. It's like I am here for

relationship. It's like I am here for you and I respect you and I like you and I'm going to try to be as transparent and honest as possible and and I'm going to look for a win-win as as much as I

can. In an unhealthy relationship,

can. In an unhealthy relationship, you're saying, "I'm going to say what I need to say to get what I want from you.

I'm going to try to convince you that this other thing is true so that you'll do something that I want to do. Uh, I'm

going to try to impress you. Uh, I'm

going to flatter you to try to get things out of you to try to get affection from you." All these things feel icky because I'm using you as a means to some other end. I'm treating

you conditionally. I'm only liking you because there's something else I can get from you. Now I bring this up because

from you. Now I bring this up because purpose functions the same way. If in

pursuing my purpose I am treating people as a means to the end of my purpose.

That's unethical and that is a toxic form of purpose. Right? So the reason Hitler is such a [ __ ] awful person is because he used people as a means to his

end. The reason Stalin and Mao were such

end. The reason Stalin and Mao were such awful people is that they used millions of human beings as a means to their end.

Uh, and you you continue to see this. I

I think the most egregious abuses of this come from political ideologies and extreme political activism.

>> And I would say that political extremists, the reason their purpose is so toxic is because they don't have a diversification of purpose. Right? Like

if you think about some crazy political extremist who's like blowing up cars and threatening politicians and trying to start a war, he probably doesn't have

many good relationships. He probably

doesn't have many hobbies or interests.

He's probably like doesn't have anything else going. His career is probably a

else going. His career is probably a dead end, right? So his only source of meaning and purpose in life comes from his political activism. And as a result,

he's become so extreme and unflexible in that activism that it becomes toxic. He

starts to use other human beings as a means to satisfy the ends of his purpose. And that purpose is now

purpose. And that purpose is now damaging and harmful not only to himself but to other people as well.

>> Now these are some extreme examples of a toxic purpose. I would say you know to

toxic purpose. I would say you know to bring it back down to like more of a day-to-day level. Um the principles here

day-to-day level. Um the principles here that we can derive is is that a a purpose becomes toxic when it is inflexible when it's undiversified.

[clears throat] When somebody has a dream that they can't let go of you know use the example of of Paul Gowwin the artist right like it's >> that's an example of a toxic purpose

that he is he is willing to blow up everything else in his life including his family including his kids including the lives of teenage Tahesian girls

[laughter] to fulfill his purpose.

Uh I would say purpose becomes toxic when people are not willing to change their mind or change their perspective on it. Um they're not willing to

on it. Um they're not willing to downgrade the thing that they find purposeful or meaningful. I would also say that anytime validation, attention or approval from others is your primary

purpose in life, it is by definition toxic because to achieve constant validation and approval from others, you have to manipulate them. You

can't control them. So you have to manipulate them which is not is therefore treating other human beings as a means to your ends to your purpose. If

you this is true of business as well. If

you look at Enron right they're like calling up scamming old ladies out of their electricity bills to you know fix their bottom line. Um if you look at

people you know crooked politicians insider trading like it's all the same [ __ ] It it is a undiversified inflexible sense of purpose that is not

putting humans at the center of it. It

is not putting the well-being of humanity uh at the heart of it and and >> anything else you put there is it's >> bad things are going to start to happen, >> right?

>> David Foster Wallace has this great segment of his his famous uh commencement speech that I I absolutely love. anybody who has not read it or

love. anybody who has not read it or listened to it should go listen to it.

But he he talks about that pretty much anything you make mo the most important thing in your life is is going to destroy you in some way or another if you prioritize your vanity over everything else like being the best

looking person. If you try to be the

looking person. If you try to be the smartest person, if you try to make the most money, if you try to have the nicest things, if you try to impress the most people, like all of these things will eventually destroy you. And I would

argue it's because none of them have other human beings as the taos as the as the ultimate end goal uh of your purpose. And you see this with

purpose. And you see this with religions. Religious extremism is exact

religions. Religious extremism is exact same thing. It's inflexible. It's

same thing. It's inflexible. It's

undiversified and it doesn't have people at the at at the heart of it. Um

anything you do that doesn't have people at the heart of it is going to eventually backfire in some way or another. There's this idea in the

another. There's this idea in the psychological research too, people who research calling's purpose um of other oriented versus self-oriented purposes and at first glance you would think well

the self-oriented ones are more selfish and all of that right >> actually either one of these can be a toxic purpose you can you can have an other oriented purpose much like Hitler

and Stalin had other like Germany or France you know Russia this is that's their other oriented purpose right um and yet they used other people as a as an ends to a mean or a means to an end.

Sorry.

>> Um I think they came to the same conclusion that these researchers have come to the same conclusion though that you can have an other or self-oriented purpose um and as long as you are

treating other people as an ends >> uh in and of themselves then it's okay.

So you can be you you can be working on Wall Street and finance which is very self-directed self-oriented uh purpose but say you mentor the all the people around you and you're a positive

influence in that and uh the money you make is is invested in good companies and not like these smart me companies you were talking about right >> there is a way that that that can still

happen on the other hand though too like another example of this is like another example of politicians on a smaller scale like corruption is motivated by a strong

my >> Yeah.

>> for that. Right. But what you're doing is using other people. You're using them as a means to that end >> to help the people closer to you. Yeah.

Which is >> which is a no no. I I like that you brought up the self-directed purpose as well because I think if you look at stuff like body dysmorphia or anorexia um or you know the people who get like

60 forms of plastic surgery and just have plastic in their face all of these things are even though they're self-directed they are using themselves as a means to some other end right it's

like I am the means to the end in of itself which is beauty or uh being extremely fit or uh you know >> being skinny or whatever it is And it's

>> you use yourself.

>> You use yourself. And and it the same way it's unethical and harmful to use others to some arbitrary end. It's

unethical to use yourself to an arbitrary end as [music] well.

>> All right, Drew. As we move into the back half of the episode and we start getting into more of the practical tips and the how-to. Before we get started, I do want to remind the the listeners and

the viewers that if you want to get a free PDF with the full summary of this episode, all of our sources and citations, all of the practical takeaways and exercises and things you can do to add more purpose into your

life, go to solvepodcast.com/purpose.

You can download it for free. It is

right there. Ready to be taken. Ready to

be taken. And of course, if you want guided personalized assistance implementing greater purpose into your life, check out the Purpose app. It's at

purpose.app/solved.

If you sign up in the next two weeks, you will get a free course on finding more purpose in your life. We are just we're just giving away all the things, Drew. We're just giving them lots of

Drew. We're just giving them lots of free stuff. It's just we're just giving

free stuff. It's just we're just giving them away. Just giving them to people.

them away. Just giving them to people.

Here's some here. Have some purpose, my man. Good luck to you. That's not how it

man. Good luck to you. That's not how it works. But [laughter]

works. But [laughter] >> is it?

All right. Well, well, I guess we'll we'll do our best. All right.

>> We'll do our best. So, what I'd like to do now is let's start with the assumption that somebody just feels a a complete and utter lack of purpose in their life. They they they feel lost.

their life. They they they feel lost.

They're drift. They don't know what they want. Maybe they've just gone through

want. Maybe they've just gone through like they're in one of those rough transition phases. you know, that just

transition phases. you know, that just came out of a breakup or a career change or moved to a new place and they're asking themselves, "What the hell matters to me? What what am I doing

here? What am I spending my time on?

here? What am I spending my time on?

What what do I care about?" Uh so, in this section, I'd like to just go through five simple strategies that people can adopt and use uh to cultivate more purpose in their life and uh

experience more purpose in in their life. And then uh at the end of the

life. And then uh at the end of the section, I'll talk a little bit about um the differences between what it feels like to have purpose in your life and what it feels like to not have purpose in your life. Because one of the things

that I definitely notice is that people who have never really felt a whole lot of purpose in their life, >> they don't know what it feels like.

>> Yeah.

>> So, [laughter] >> so even even if it hits them in the face, they don't know what it is. So, uh

I do think it is useful to kind of talk through what what it actually looks like.

So at some point we must all admit the inevitable which is that life is short and not all of our dreams are going to come true. So we have to care about the

come true. So we have to care about the few things that actually truly matter in our lives. I think the first way to do

our lives. I think the first way to do this is by fostering a sense of curiosity. Like look at where your mind

curiosity. Like look at where your mind kind of naturally leads you over and over again and take it seriously.

Because what I've noticed uh with a lot of people is that people don't let themselves be curious. They're like,

"Oh, well, I'm not supposed to do that, so why why would I why would I go sniffing around over there? Uh, you

know, I I my parents told me I have to be a doctor, so I like what am I doing uh attending Comic-Con?" Like, it's if you're interested in it and you're curious about it and you're excited in

it, just start indulging your curiosities because curiosity is like a leading indicator that there's something useful or or important there. um there's

some like natural inclination inside of you uh that needs to be explored and and investigated.

>> Yes. Goes back to the developmental psychology. We talked about the

psychology. We talked about the childhood um kind of experience that you have and I pointed out there that if you have an adult who does support your interests, you learn from an early age.

Oh, it's okay to be curious. It's okay

to So many of us do not get that though where it's more like no, no, no, you have to take this path. You have to uh that's not practical. That's not

>> it's not the homework that that was assigned to you. It's not part of your chores.

>> You shouldn't be interested in this. You

should be interested in this thing over here. So that curiosity I think a lot of

here. So that curiosity I think a lot of times is just kind of tamped down from a very young age and you have to rediscover that a lot.

>> Absolutely. I in case it needs to be said there is absolutely nothing you should or should not be curious about.

>> 100%. Yeah.

>> If you're curious just go [ __ ] do it.

>> Reserve all judgment around it. Yeah.

[laughter] Just go do it.

>> Just go do it. Yeah.

>> Strategy number two is experimentation.

And I think this is mostly this is a very important mental shift for people.

Most people will look at something and they think to themselves, well, if I try to do that, I'll probably fail and that will be embarrassing, so I'm not going to try to do it. I think it's more

useful to look at things in terms of experimentation. Like, let me run an

experimentation. Like, let me run an experiment. And the point's not to

experiment. And the point's not to succeed at it or not fail at it. The

point is to find out if I like it or not.

>> Like, just do things for the information. do do things for the

information. do do things for the understanding of like is this did this feel worth the time or did it feel like a waste of time because even if you discover that something was a waste of

time that's still valuable cuz now you know not to do that anymore.

>> Yeah, you're really good at this.

[laughter] I look at Do you feel like you're good at it? I guess.

>> Yes, I do. So cuz I feel like I'm not good at it. And one thing I've learned working through like you've dragged me along a lot of these things, you know, and I'm like, "Oh, it's not until like the third or fourth step in this experimentation process that you're like, oh, this is what I like about it

or this is what I hate about it or whatever it is." So it's like people you get into it, you experiment around these things. You you think I'm passionate or

things. You you think I'm passionate or have a purpose around something >> and then if it doesn't work right away, then you just stop. But you're more just like, "No, keep going. There's something

else here. Keep going. Keep going. Keep

going." I would say it's very intrinsic in the content business, right? Like so

when when when I started a YouTube channel, >> I didn't know anything about YouTube. I

didn't know anything about video. I

didn't know anything about like what what made a good video, what a good topic was, how to talk on video. So, I'd

say there was like a year or two of just trying stuff and most of it >> failed pretty spectacularly. Like we we tried a bunch of zany YouTube ideas that uh were a little embarrassing and kind

of fell flat. Some of them, but some of them were awesome and some of them were a ton of fun. And either way, you you get information from it. Uh this

[clears throat] is something you know my my my wife grew up uh you know she she grew up very poor in Brazil and there was basically no >> it was it was very much enforced in her

from a very young age that you don't have the luxury of having curiosity about things and you better like anything you do you better do it right because there's almost no margin for

error here. If you [ __ ] up that's it.

error here. If you [ __ ] up that's it.

You're not going to get another shot. So

my wife has it still has this very ingrained in her. And it's funny because so many of our conversations uh is like her not wanting to do something because she doesn't think we're going to do it

well or it's or or it's or that it's even going to go well. And I'm always like yes, but then we'll have the information. Then we'll know whether we

information. Then we'll know whether we should invest in it or not or we should try to get good at it or not. Yeah.

>> You you really don't know as until you try. Um, one of the things that I wrote

try. Um, one of the things that I wrote before related to this is, uh, beliefs are theories, actions are experiments, and your emotions are feedback. So, life

is like a form of science. And the

objective is growth. It's not to do things correctly, it's not to be liked, it's not to be the most successful person. The objective is growth. And the

person. The objective is growth. And the

way you grow is by trying things, learning from them, and observing how you feel. Because I would say that

you feel. Because I would say that generally what you're looking for is something that you really enjoy doing even when it's not working out. Even if

you're kind of failing at it, >> you're like, "Oh, this is fun. How can I get better?" Like it it's

get better?" Like it it's >> I I've often described it as like the [ __ ] sandwich you enjoy eating.

>> Like it's it's you're like, "Yeah, I kind of like eating this. Like this

sucks. I'm terrible at it, but it's kind of fun, too. I kind of like being terrible at it."

>> Like that.

>> Look for that feeling. That's the sweet spot.

>> Yeah. There's a musician Jason >> Isbel. You know who Jason

>> Isbel. You know who Jason >> Isbel?

>> He's a he's a musician guitarist. Um and

he he's said this too. He's like I just love playing guitar even when I was lousy at it, [laughter] >> you know? So even when you're lousy at something if you just keep go that I found this in my life too. It's like

when there's something that I'm just like keep going even when I'm bad at it.

Yeah.

>> I'll do it over and over and over again.

If you if you can find something you'll do over and over and over again.

>> Um even if you're bad at it like that's a that's a really good sign anyway.

>> It is a good sign. So these first two strategies are are very much in line with that that first component that we talked about like find what you are naturally inclined to do. Find what

you're naturally talented or gifted at.

Um which is just an incredibly valuable thing even outside of purpose. Like it's

it's useful to like it's really useful to know like what you like doing and what what you're good at doing uh for practical purposes. Kind of looking at

practical purposes. Kind of looking at the other component um you know what is something larger than yourself that you can contribute to. The third strategy here is just connect with more people

and connect deeper with those people.

Stop thinking so much about happiness or being liked and think more in terms of just meaningful experiences and relationships. Find meaningful

relationships. Find meaningful activities and and meaningful people that you can do those activities with.

And if you nail those two things, then the happiness just kind of happens as a side effect. It's not something you have

side effect. It's not something you have to go find in and of itself. And I would say that the purpose starts to happen as a side effect as well. Because if you are suddenly surrounded by a lot of people that you really care about,

you're going to find things that you can do for them. You're going to find ways that you can be useful, you can be helpful, you can add value. And

ultimately a huge component of purpose is just like finding ways to add value.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I I think a a big point here too is like get specific about who that is, about who those people are.

>> Um the research team found a really cool example. Florence Nightingale who you

example. Florence Nightingale who you know she was this um uh she was a head nurse and she really revolutionized the nursing industry back in like the 1800s.

It was like during the Crimean War she set up this like nursing facility that just revolutionized how we think about uh care ever since then. And one of the points she made about it was like to to

other nurses like to have a strong sense of purpose to show up and it was during wartime too so it was like really traumatic. just like to to be able to

traumatic. just like to to be able to sustain yourself through that, be very very specific and and have a specific person in mind or a specific people in mind that you're going to uh that that

you're going to impact that has like a gives you a really strong connection to purpose there. Yeah. [clears throat] So,

purpose there. Yeah. [clears throat] So, it's like she she it was like the soldiers, not only just the soldiers, but like all the the families of the soldiers and everything like that. Like

she encouraged people to go out and meet them. I've seen this recently, too. You

them. I've seen this recently, too. You

know, we've I've met several people who fans of the podcast and stuff like that.

And when you have that personal connection to him, there's like this sense of purpose that there's a sense of oh like responsibility and duty that comes out of it that gives you a very strong sense of purpose around it.

>> It makes it real.

>> It makes it super real. Yeah. When you

see somebody, you're looking them in the eyes right?

>> This is this is a common piece of advice for writers as well. They say like [clears throat] imagine a person that you're writing for. Like think of somebody in your life that you were specifically speaking to and telling

this story or sharing this idea or giving this advice to cuz it makes it >> Yeah. It it [clears throat] it makes it

>> Yeah. It it [clears throat] it makes it more meaningful as you're doing it and it also probably just makes it you better at it, >> right? Yeah. I think it's a way to

>> right? Yeah. I think it's a way to connect your passions to purpose, too.

Like like we there's a distinction between passion and purpose, right? I

used to follow this guy Paul Jarvis. Did

you ever know Paul Jarvis? Yeah. He

wrote this book called Company of One.

He was a freelance designer. Um he built some really cool websites for people.

His passion was design and and web design in particular. And he but his purpose was using that passion to go help like small businesses like yoga instructors or usually solo

entrepreneurs kind of help achieve their dreams. And he was very very specific.

So he he had this newsletter too and he'd write about these people in very specific ways. And he made that

specific ways. And he made that connection between his passion and a purpose of like we're I'm helping people who help people. Yeah.

>> Like it was so Again, having that personal connection, yeah, it it really can like sustain you through a lot of um you know, when you obstacles in front of you or whatever it is that pops up,

>> uh it just gives you it just gives more life to that purpose.

>> Yeah. Just really think about the the humans. Yeah. And and again, it comes

humans. Yeah. And and again, it comes back to the formula of humanity, right?

It's like think about the humans at the end of the process. like it's you could sit in a in a empty cubicle and and be miserable thinking, you know, as an insurance adjuster or whatever, but you

could think about like I'm I'm actually doing the math that protects people's livelihood when disaster strikes. Yeah.

>> You know, like there's just always a way to reframe these things >> uh in a way that feels more meaningful and and purposeful, >> right? Uh strategy number four is

>> right? Uh strategy number four is integration which is basically taking the struggle and pain in your life and finding something meaningful in it.

[clears throat] >> People don't really like to do this.

This is not this is not a Sunday walk in the park. Uh this is usually where

the park. Uh this is usually where therapy comes in. It is incredibly important. Um one of the things that I

important. Um one of the things that I often say is that if you can find a lesson in your pain or your tragedy, then it it becomes impossible to regret

it or wish that it never happened. Um

it's it I think it is incredibly powerful to find some sort of transformational meaning and in and in and anything difficult that happens to you. And I often think that that often

you. And I often think that that often our purpose is found in that ugly stuff that we don't want to go revisit. Um

again if we come back to those three factors you know it it's what are you naturally inclined to do? What can you contribute to that's greater than

yourself? like what are you sacrificing

yourself? like what are you sacrificing and struggling for? If you can find some greater reason, if you can make that connection between your sacrifice and your struggle and some greater outcome,

um that can deliver a lot of purpose to your life. And the funny thing is is

your life. And the funny thing is is that you can rationalize this stuff after the fact, right? Like it's not like, you know, most of the examples that we've talked about here, it's been people who are sacrificing in the moment

as they're pursuing the thing that is that is purposeful and meaningful. you

can create that purpose and meaning after it's happened. Um

>> so for for example um you know years ago I I I did some volunteer work at a prison in New York and uh and I remember one of the guys who was like one of the the head educators. He was a former

convict and he had gotten educated in prison, got his high school diploma and then actually got a university degree through the mail. And he said that it was it was completely transformed his

life. Like just education itself was

life. Like just education itself was [snorts] really what got him onto the correct path so that when he got out he could have like a normal functional life

in in the outside world. And so he decided that he was going to use his prison time and that chunk of his life

that he had sacrificed and lost to being incarcerated and make it meaningful by giving back to the guys who were in prison. So um essentially like the way

prison. So um essentially like the way he put it to me is he was like I come back here to make sure that more guys get out of here like I did. It's kind of like uh you you want to pull up the guy

behind you. You don't want to just like

behind you. You don't want to just like climb out of the the hole yourself. You

want to like turn around and help the the guy behind you up as well. Help him

get out the same way you did.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think this is actually a really this has been really common for me anyway, like finding [clears throat] purpose after the fact.

>> Yeah.

>> Um like a lot of time I've one of the things I think is I find a lot of purpose in is helping other people.

We've talked about this before. You

know, one of my values is benevolence and helping other people. And a lot of times it's not until after I've done something I'm like, "Oh, actually I found a lot of meaning in that. It

wasn't I wasn't I didn't feel like I was doing it with a huge sense of purpose.

More just like I'm going to help this person. This is just what I do type of

person. This is just what I do type of thing." You look back and you're

thing." You look back and you're [clears throat] like, "Oh, >> that's that's a big part of who I am and what I do and my purpose." So I think that's actually way more common than >> uh than having the purpose, setting out

very consciously going and doing it. You

can just find purpose in a lot of things you've already done. I think it's interesting too that um you know in Alcoholics Anonymous one of the the structures that they have in the group is that once you've been in the group

for a long time and you've been sober for a long time >> you become a sponsor for other people who just joined the group. We talked

earlier about that that like sense of regret, you know, like that like I wasted so much time. I I I I was so stupid.

>> It allows you to take that time and find a use for it, right? So, it's it's it's the older alcoholics who are trying to help the the people who just showed up.

It's now allowing them to to take all those years of mistakes and wasted time and find some utility for it and make it valuable in some way.

>> And [clears throat] then finally, number five, I I don't I think the easiest way to describe this is just do hard [ __ ] >> I know that's a very crude way of saying it, but it it's purpose is not

compatible with comfort. We've already

established that there's some degree of sacrifice and struggle involved. So why

not actively pursue that sacrifice and struggle like just do the hard [ __ ] Not because it's fun, but because it's it will actually make the win mean something. It will be far more

something. It will be far more meaningful and gratifying when you do achieve it. And you'll feel like you

achieve it. And you'll feel like you [ __ ] earn something. Like it's it it will mean something. It's I don't know.

Things that come to us easily, it's just human nature. things that come to us

human nature. things that come to us easily end up being very forgettable and we tend to take them for granted.

Whereas the things that we we feel like we worked for or that we earned in some way, we adopt them as part of our identity and and they and because they

get adopted as our identity, they they feel incredibly powerful and and meaningful for us.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Another one of my favorite articles you ever wrote was u find what you love and let it kill you, which is Bukowski quote. Charles Bukowski wrote

Bukowski quote. Charles Bukowski wrote that. But in that one, you said, um,

that. But in that one, you said, um, "Finding meaning and purpose is not a five-day spa retreat. It's a [ __ ] hike through the mud and [ __ ] with golf ball- sized hail pelting you in the face. And you have to love it. You have

face. And you have to love it. You have

to laugh about it to show the world your gleaming bruises and scars and say, "I stood for this."

That Yeah.

>> What a great writer.

>> What a good writer you are. Amazing.

>> Yeah. Um, [laughter]

>> you wrote that before I even started working for you, so that's been a very long time since you wrote that. And that

was like um oh okay this is the reality of it >> and the reality of it is is that finding meaning and purpose is not a five day spa retreat at all.

>> No >> because you go through that it means more to you just like you just said it's like if it's easy then everybody's going to do it and it doesn't have a whole lot of purpose to it.

>> Right mentioned this earlier too. Robert

Green in the book Mastery talks a lot about that >> that [clears throat] phase getting curious about things.

>> Yes. He usually says, "Yeah, go back to like when you were a child." Yes. Like

for him, it was words. And he's a writer. It was words. And he just

writer. It was words. And he just thought words were amazing. These

amazing magical things to him. Right.

>> It's funny. I'm glad you brought that up. You see this pop up a lot with

up. You see this pop up a lot with people that there are things that they used to do for fun as a kid, but then at some point school just kind of beat it out of them of like, well, no, that's not going to get you a good grade, so

stop doing it. And it's funny cuz I remember when I was a kid, I used to sit in my room and write stories >> for fun. It was just my idea of like a fun Saturday afternoon was just writing

all these interesting stories and stuff.

>> Yeah. But you get older and then you think, "Oh, that's childish."

>> Yeah.

>> You know, like [laughter] that's what got beat into us is that childish dreams are childish dreams. Leave them alone.

You know, >> and it may not be like it's not necessarily the dream that you need to pursue, but think about that activity like what behind it.

>> Yeah. what was what was so interesting or intriguing about that activity and like why can't you just go explore it again? Um so yeah, strategy number one,

again? Um so yeah, strategy number one, curiosity. Strategy number two, uh treat

curiosity. Strategy number two, uh treat life as an experiment. Um pursue

information rather than being right or wrong or successful or not a failure.

Strategy number three is uh connections.

Build connections with people. Be useful

for people. Um, strategy number four is integrate past struggles. And then

strategy number five is do hardship, pursue difficult things. Um, the last thing I want to talk about in this section is it's just kind of what is the difference between living a purposeful life and uh and a and a and a life

devoid of purpose. And

>> yeah, what does that look like?

>> I came up with some dichotoies, okay, that I think illustrate this extremely well. So the first one I have here is

well. So the first one I have here is obligation versus option. And I would describe this as like generally people who don't feel a whole lot of purpose in their life,

>> everything feels like an obligation.

Like, oh, I've got to get up at 8 am.

Uh, I got to get to work by 9. Oh, I got to turn in this report for my boss. Oh,

I got to meet my sister for lunch or whatever. Like, it's everything is like,

whatever. Like, it's everything is like, I have to. They're making me. Oh, I I have to do this. Whereas when you're living with a lot of purpose, it's I get to

>> I get to go to work at night. I get to prepare this project for my boss. I get

to see my sister for lunch. Right? It's

like it feels like uh something that you chose and and you're happy with that choice. You're very like proud of that

choice. You're very like proud of that choice. The second thing I've got here

choice. The second thing I've got here is uh bare minimum versus absolute maximum. So, generally speaking, if

maximum. So, generally speaking, if people who are not feeling a whole lot of purpose in their life, they're just trying to get by. They're like, I just want the paycheck, man. Like, [laughter]

I just want the paycheck and an easy Saturday and uh, you know, I just want to chill with the boys, maybe watch some football. It's the bare minimum. If you

football. It's the bare minimum. If you

have a lot of purpose in your life, you're constantly thinking about how can I use my time, well, I I want to get the most I can out of this. I want to achieve the most I can at this in in a

limited amount of time. I want to see the people I care about, spend as much time with them as possible. You're

always thinking about like, how can I maximize the time that I'm using? How

can I get the most out of this? The next

one I have here is tolerating versus engaging. Um,

engaging. Um, >> you know, if you I I feel this a lot with friendships. I

feel like I'm tolerating my like if I the people I spend time with that I don't see a whole lot of purpose of spending time with them. I feel like I'm tolerating my time with them. Like it's

just like well >> this is what I got to do. You know it's it's the husband and my wife's friend so >> whatever. Whereas when I do feel a lot

>> whatever. Whereas when I do feel a lot of purpose uh in my relationships, it feels very engaging like I'm I'm like looking forward to spending Sunday with this person or um I've got a bunch of

really interesting things that I want to talk to them about. Um or you know something reminded me of them yesterday and I'm I'm curious what they would have thought about it. Similarly with

relationships I have I put here two-faced relationships versus transparency or vulnerability. I

would say you could potentially even define a meaningful relationship by the amount of vulnerability that is in it.

Essentially if you feel like you're having to censor yourself around someone if you're having to alter yourself, change yourself, pretend you're somebody you're not, that is by definition not a meaningful relationship. There's not

meaningful relationship. There's not much intimacy there.

>> You are probably using them for a means to some other end.

um and you're probably tolerating having them in your life for the most part.

Whereas, when you are very transparent, honest, vulnerable, you have a deeper connection, you have more intimacy, it's going to make the relationship feel more meaningful. You're likely aligned in

meaningful. You're likely aligned in values or in pursuits in some way. So,

you might share a purpose with this person. It's just going to feel much

person. It's just going to feel much more powerful.

And then [clears throat] finally, the last one I came up with was pain avoidance versus pain indulgence.

[laughter] >> Oh, >> not just endurance, indulgence.

>> Indulgence.

>> Okay.

>> Cuz again, I think it's, you know, when you're doing something without purpose, >> you're trying to get by.

>> You're [clears throat] just trying, you're like, I just want this to be as easy as it can be.

>> I I want to sacrifice as little as possible. I want to suffer as little as

possible. I want to suffer as little as possible. like let's just try to get

possible. like let's just try to get through this. Whereas when you're doing

through this. Whereas when you're doing something with a lot of purpose and it's meaningful to you, again, you're just try you're trying to how can I squeeze as much juice out of this as possible?

And at least with me personally, I I find my dis my my disposition towards it is like how much can I take?

>> Like how much can I give to this?

>> How many hours can I work? How many

Saturdays can I work? Um how long can I go before I need time off? Like that

that's always my main question. It's

never like h how can I get through Monday?

>> Like if if you're asking yourself that like that's a that's a [ __ ] red flag.

>> Right. Right. Yeah. I I think running through all of these is that all you got?

>> That's all I got.

>> Okay. I think through all of these I think if what you could notice is that um you could have two people who do almost the exact same thing.

>> Yes.

>> And yet their experience of it is completely different. One example, um I

completely different. One example, um I was recently talking to a family member um who worked for it's like a fertilizer uh company. Um and there was these two

uh company. Um and there was these two truck drivers uh who delivered fertilizer and one of them was just like, you know, did the bare minimum skate and buy, you know, would just deliver [ __ ] get home, like as soon as

5:00, man, he's gone, whatever. This

other guy just loved his job and he was delivering fertilizer in a truck.

>> He loved people. He loved talking to the people. He go everywhere where he

people. He go everywhere where he delivered. He knew what was going on

delivered. He knew what was going on with everybody all the time cuz he would interact with them.

>> He liked being on the road. He liked

driving. He liked all of these things and he saw it as an opportunity to like experience his life in a way that was full of purpose.

>> And I mean fertilizer is actually a very important thing in life obviously too. So he connected that with

obviously too. So he connected that with a greater purpose.

>> Another example, this is an old old research study I think from the 50s or 60s where they interviewed um the janitorial staff at a hospital. M

>> um and they found that the same split there. There were some people who just

there. There were some people who just showed up and they were just there for the paycheck and clocking in and clocking out.

>> Others of them saw no part of my job is helping people stay healthy. The the

cleanliness of this hospital is obviously very very important and so I'm going to take my job very very seriously.

>> Not only that, they would interact with some of the patients and find a lot of uh purpose out of that too. Just that

that social connection that they had, >> but they connected that their everyday, you know, wiping a table down, disinfecting something. this. And so

disinfecting something. this. And so

it's just a completely like they have this from the outside looking in it looks like they're doing the exact same thing and yet one of them is much happier, much more purpose- driven and much more fulfilled than the other.

>> Yeah.

>> So yeah, I think that's a big takeaway here.

>> Yeah. I think there's an aspect of like pursuing excellence in this >> like if something feels meaningful to you, you want >> you want to do it the best to your ability. You want to see how high your

ability. You want to see how high your potential is. you want to see how well

potential is. you want to see how well you can do something. Uh whereas if it feels meaningless, then you're just kind of like, "Yeah, dude, give me the paycheck." Right?

paycheck." Right?

>> I love this point and I didn't know you were going to bring it up and so I actually had to like run out and grab my phone cuz I wanted to look up there's this amazing quote from Martin Luther King

>> about this that's so [ __ ] good. And

he said this. He said, "If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep the streets as Michelangelo painted or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should

sweep the streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, "Here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well."

[laughter] >> That's [snorts] good.

>> So maybe maybe another another uh strategy here is is just pursu pursuit of excellence. Yeah. like just do things

of excellence. Yeah. like just do things as well as possible because there is something intrinsically meaningful about that about like mastery of something.

>> Do you know who nailed this first?

>> Who?

>> Yes.

>> Aristotle.

>> God damn it.

>> Got a quote. You probably you've heard this quote before. Excellence is not a single act but a habit of mind.

>> Yes.

>> Right. The first time I heard that it was my my high school football coach.

>> Yeah.

>> Um he he was actually he was an English teacher too. really smart guy and he was

teacher too. really smart guy and he was a football coach, but he he brought that up. But the way he related it to us, he

up. But the way he related it to us, he said that means if you're going to wipe your ass, you're going to wipe your ass [laughter] the best that you absolutely can. You're not going to stop till your

can. You're not going to stop till your ass is clean. [laughter] Same thing when you're out here on the field. Like this

was, you know, this was Yeah. So that

was >> Wow, that's powerful. That's very very moving actually.

>> Uh maybe a better example for my [laughter] own life that I had though too. So I worked when I um a summer job

too. So I worked when I um a summer job when I was in high school um I'd go work for the the the city parks department, right? And it was you were uh you

right? And it was you were uh you running weed eaters basically for half the time and then doing all the [ __ ] jobs that the full-time guys didn't want to do, you know, clean bathrooms and just stuff like that.

>> My supervisor though, um he like really I he was a very I I think a very instrumental figure in my development in a lot of ways because he would say, "Look, this is this is your town. This

is your this is where we live. Take some

pride in your work."

>> Yeah. you know, yeah, you're out there running a weed eater or you're scrubbing a toilet, but like this is where we live. This is take some pride in the

live. This is take some pride in the place that you live and work and other people will will interact with you, you know, and so I I took that to heart. Um,

definitely. And he was a he was a really good guy even, you know, even though he was just working at the for the street and parks department or whatever it was, he took a lot of pride in his work because he saw a lot of meaning in making his town beautiful and a good place to live.

>> Yeah.

I think this segus really nicely into a conversation about purpose at work because I think this is this is probably the biggest area of life that people associate purpose or lack of purpose.

>> Yeah. Especially today. Yes.

>> And and I think a lot of people it's become very trendy I know in the corporate world to like find mission and meaning and a sense of purpose for everybody. Uh they probably do that

everybody. Uh they probably do that because they just know that workers who have a sense of purpose work a lot harder and better and that's good for the bottom line. But it is also

>> healthier. It makes for healthy

>> healthier. It makes for healthy healthier and happier workers. So, um,

so let's let's let's dig in a little bit on what is purpose at work and how can we find it? [clears throat]

>> I mean, to start off with, and we've kind of alluded to this a little bit, but there's different kind of orientations you can take towards your work.

>> Um, and yet still find purpose in them.

Um, researchers have kind of come up with these three different orientations to work. Um, one's a job orientation, a

to work. Um, one's a job orientation, a career orientation, and a calling orientation. Okay. So, job orientation,

orientation. Okay. So, job orientation, you you see your work as a necessity.

It's a paycheck. It's a it's a means to another end, basically. Um stability,

survival, uh taking care of your family.

The purpose kind of lies outside of the job, but you're yet you're using that job in a purposeful way still.

>> I think um you know, this was this was definitely for a long time, you know, like in the 50s and 60s especially, it was like, you know, a man went off to work to provide for his family and he found a lot of purpose and meaning in

that right?

um you find you find other purposes. A

lot of times you will find more purpose outside of work than too whether it is through your family or through hobbies or relationships of some kind. I don't

think there's anything wrong with that.

I think we need to be a little bit more amendable to that cuz not everybody can be you know a singer or a painter or >> living your dream >> living your dream all the time >> feeling like you're knowing what your

dream is necessarily. And maybe that job just provides you uh with kind of the foundations of other purposes in your life.

>> Yes. I I I for sure I've definitely I've written about this and I have >> seen it in a lot of people in my life.

Like I have multiple people in my life who don't love their job. They don't

find a ton of meaning in their job, >> but they like their job >> and they have tons of purpose in other areas of their life and they're perfectly happy. So I I think this is

perfectly happy. So I I think this is one of the things millennials kind of just got inflated expectations about.

>> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. There's also a lot of people too who find like uh the relationships at work the meaningful part, right? It's like I don't really

part, right? It's like I don't really like the job, but I really like the people there. Like I hear that a lot and

people there. Like I hear that a lot and that's awesome because if you can have like a good friend at work, that's one of the the best predictors of job satisfaction actually. It's not the the

satisfaction actually. It's not the the work itself.

>> It's not the work, it's the people.

>> Yeah.

>> Um the career orientation. This one's

kind of interesting. It's more you see work as kind of achievement and you get you get purpose out of the achievement, not necessarily the job itself.

>> So you like the job because it's a ladder for your advancement, right? And

or um there's there's mastery to it or there's maybe some recognition that you get out of it and you you find some purpose out of that.

>> Obviously, you don't want to anchor too much your your purpose to external sources like this, but there are some people who just like the growth. They

just like growth. that's like a value of theirs and whatever job they're in, they're like, "Okay, I'm going to work my way up through the ladder or whatever it is, if it's a corporate ladder or just job advancement in some kind."

These are the kind of people where if they do hit a dead end in their career, then that usually throws them into some sort of, you know, positive disintegration loop. Hopefully, it's the

disintegration loop. Hopefully, it's the best that can come out of that. But,

>> um, these are again, it's not that like they don't see the work as the purpose itself. It's more like the process that

itself. It's more like the process that they're engaged in. Okay. And then this last one is the calling orientation.

This is the one that gets all the attention, right? Your work is your

attention, right? Your work is your identity. It's your service. It's your

identity. It's your service. It's your

contribution. It's intrinsically

meaningful, too. Like you just derive a lot of purpose from the work itself.

>> Um, and it it does have this larger contribution aspect to it. Like I said, again, this one gets all the attention.

It's great if you can find that. I just

think it's much more rare than people want to believe. M

>> um because a lot of times and we'll get to this too. A lot of times it's like >> maybe what you're very passionate and and find a lot of purpose in doesn't pay well, right? [laughter]

well, right? [laughter] >> There's that whole aspect and we'll get into that. But um those are kind of the

into that. But um those are kind of the three three orientations we can take towards our work and still find purpose in some way.

>> You you know what this reminds me of and I hate to bring it back to him. Uh it

reminds me of Aristotle's framework for three friendships.

>> Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. friendships of

utility, friendships of pleasure, and friendships of virtue, right? And it's

like the utility friendships is like you're just doing it to get something.

The pleasure friendships is like you genuinely enjoy being around the person, but it's like not super deep. And then

the the virtuous friendship is like you there's like a deep respect for that person. And it's it sounds like this

person. And it's it sounds like this framework is the same thing with jobs like >> job of utility, job of pleasure, and job of virtue, which is, you know, you you feel called to it. It's intrinsically

motivating. You you admire it for its own sake. And the lesson from that was

own sake. And the lesson from that was you you can you all three are good. Yes.

Obviously like if you can get to that calling phase of that virtue phase sure that's great. But I mean a a job for of

that's great. But I mean a a job for of utility has a lot of utility right in your life. Or a job of pleasure or

your life. Or a job of pleasure or advancement. Well, and and like with

advancement. Well, and and like with friendship, you know, Aristotle said that you you can't get to level three until you go, you know, you got to start at utility and then you discover that you like it and then as you like it, you

discover that it's very meaningful and important. And it's the same thing with

important. And it's the same thing with jobs. Like you you take a job because

jobs. Like you you take a job because you need the paycheck, >> but [clears throat] then hopefully you you take one that you find you really enjoy and and like a lot and then as you

enjoy it and like it, it starts to become meaningful and you get really good at it.

>> Right. Right. I I think there's also a like a personality uh dimension to this obviously too. Um I think there are just

obviously too. Um I think there are just some people like like you talked about um what was the weightlifter's name again?

>> Ronnie Coleman.

>> Ronnie Coleman and and yourself. I think

there's just a personality thing towards it where it's like I got to go all in on this and I'm going for my calling. And

then there's some people who they're like that I don't derive either I don't there's not a a calling or a passion that's going to pay me well and so I can't engage in that because of my

personality. Yeah. or um it's just not

personality. Yeah. or um it's just not the kind of person that they are and so they find other sources of meaning and it could be within their work or outside of their work.

>> I I saw this a lot with people I went to music school with. You know, it was >> music school it's it's such a >> tough environment because first of all, most most people drop out. But even the

people who don't drop out, there's kind of this understanding like everybody kind of looks around and and there's an understanding of like okay like those 10 guys are going to make it. the rest of us are going to fight for whatever gigs are left over. [clears throat]

>> Um, and you can see like some people are very comfortable with that. They're

like, I'm happy to be a starving artist.

I don't really need to make a bunch of money, you know, I'll tour in a van for the rest of my life.

>> Uh, and then some people are like, nope, nope. gonna go teach high school or

nope. gonna go teach high school or gonna go teach graduate school or whatever or work in a church or you know find something stable and dependable even though it's not their like ultimate

dream.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um you know having that purpose having purpose in your work it it's obviously going to make you more productive. It's obviously going to

productive. It's obviously going to probably be um better for you in the long run. But again, there's these

long run. But again, there's these different ways you can find purpose in work. It doesn't just have to be the

work. It doesn't just have to be the calling side of it too, right? There's

also when we tack on to the darker side issue just a little bit here though too.

You got to watch out a little bit because a lot of these especially where if it's like a creative industry or something that is just a lot of people think it's a very purposeful or meaningful work.

>> A lot of employers can sometimes like take advantage of that. Yes. They will

they will um be like well >> you don't need the money.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you get to work for Disney. Yeah. You get to work for

Disney. Yeah. You get to work for >> a TV out here in LA. It's like you get to work for a TV show here. Therefore,

we get to pay you like [ __ ] and treat you like [ __ ] >> Dude, we >> because it's purposeful and meaningful to you.

>> Since we started hiring video production people out here in LA, like I can't tell you how many people have come through who used to work for Disney. Um,

particularly on the Star Wars and the Marvel franchises.

>> Really, >> it's like slave labor. It It's like not even exaggerating. It's like slave

even exaggerating. It's like slave labor. You know, a lot of these a lot of

labor. You know, a lot of these a lot of these guys worked on crews and were PAs and stuff on on a Star Wars film, >> getting paid almost nothing.

>> [ __ ] Yeah.

>> Working 12, 14 hour days, like no overtime, getting treated like [ __ ] And they told me they're like, "Yeah, it's every like everybody would kill to work

on a Star Wars film.

>> So, you're so replaceable that like you have absolutely no leverage whatsoever."

Right.

>> And apparently this is pretty common place on some of those like those huge franchises with with massive fan bases.

Uh and it's it's it's sick. It's really

it's really [ __ ] up.

>> Yeah. You know, uh Scott Galloway talks about this a lot. He's like unless you're getting really bright lights early on about some of these industries like acting, you know, writing, uh

painting, art, whatever. Yeah.

>> Unless you're getting those, probably look for something else. Yeah. you know,

and and find you can still find purpose and meaning in those things. You can

still do your artwork or your create c creative projects on the side. That's

that's great. And we'll get into a little bit of how we do that outside of work. But um I think you have to be

work. But um I think you have to be really really cognizant that because you are replaceable in a lot of those industries unless you're getting these like okay you're super talented athlete

or or creative artist in some way. Be

careful with that. I I don't want to discourage people from pursuing those things obviously. Um but just know that

things obviously. Um but just know that there is a huge cost there.

>> Yeah. There and there are there are notable exceptions. You know, it's uh

notable exceptions. You know, it's uh John Col Train like didn't start playing saxophone until like his mid20s and um I think Morgan Freeman didn't start acting until he was like 40, you know, like so there are

>> Withers was the same. Yeah.

>> Yeah. There are exceptions to this rule, but the rule is is that >> if you if you haven't made it >> within the first few years, like the odds are massively stacked against you.

And [clears throat] it's just it's just because like talent rises to the top extremely quickly in most creative fields. And um and so it it's like you

fields. And um and so it it's like you said, it's not to discourage people from trying, but like >> I I get this question quite a bit coincidentally from musicians. you know,

it's usually musicians in their mid to late 20s and >> they're like, I've been grinding for 10 years and it's not really going anywhere. Should I should I give up?

anywhere. Should I should I give up?

>> And I I'm always extremely honest with them. I I tell them I'm like, look, I'm

them. I I tell them I'm like, look, I'm not going to tell you whether to give up or not, but I I'm going to be extremely honest in that if it hasn't happened yet, it's probably not. [clears throat]

>> Make of that what you will.

>> Yeah. [laughter] I was uh I Chris Rock said uh follow your passion if they're hiring [laughter] right? Um which is I mean you know is a

right? Um which is I mean you know is a little bit tongue and cheek but also a little bit truth to that.

>> I think with with work though um >> you know >> take those work is utility, work is pleasure, work is as passion.

>> Um there's probably different phases in your life where you have to go through that. You know, like I grew up from

that. You know, like I grew up from humble means and there was just a point where I was like, I need to >> you need money >> achieve financial stability. That was my purpose.

>> Yes.

>> For a for several years. My purpose was just get this taken care of.

>> And so I I showed up to work. I had

purpose in my work whether I liked it or not. I had some [ __ ] jobs for a while,

not. I had some [ __ ] jobs for a while, you know, but my purpose was to achieve some some sort of financial stability.

Um so that then I could um from that place of of security then I could be a little bit choosier. Yeah. Okay. So I

think that's one thing people need to realize is that like oh should I should I completely like I have no savings I have no nothing. Whatever. Should I

follow my passion? Well

>> you know there's probably like some degree of you need to you need some sort of you need to be able to make this decision from a place of stability.

>> Yeah.

>> For a lot of people. Again that's

personality based though too.

>> Yeah. Well, and I think this is this is an excellent time to bring up Maslo's hierarchy of needs, right? Like it's

>> it's uh I mean everybody's very familiar with that pyramid. Funny story is that Maslo never actually published that pyramid. It was actually it was in one

pyramid. It was actually it was in one of his notebooks that he kind of just scribbled in like I don't know in a fever dream or something. Um and then you know a bunch of corporate consultants took it way too far. But

there's not actually a ton of empirical validity behind it. But it is a framework. I think it is just people

framework. I think it is just people find it intuitively true. There there's

a book by a good friend of mine which I highly recommend. Um it's called

highly recommend. Um it's called Transcend by Scott Barry Kaufman.

>> He's a professor at Colombia, really old friend of mine, brilliant guy. And he is the biggest Abraham Maslo fan on the planet. And so Scott reimagines Maslo's

planet. And so Scott reimagines Maslo's hierarchy into like a sailboat metaphor.

And on the bottom, the boat portion of the sailboat, you have the what he calls the security needs. And then the sail itself is the growth needs. And so the

the boat portion is it's like everything is necessary but not sufficient. It's

the whole goal of those needs is is just that prevents you from sinking. So

that's where you have your physiological needs, your your safety needs, and your like basic self-esteem and belongingness needs. And so if you don't have those,

needs. And so if you don't have those, you're going to start sinking and nothing else matters. So you have to get those three things set and secure before anything else. But then once you have

anything else. But then once you have those things, once you are financially secure, once you are safe, once you do feel like some degree of confidence and stability with yourself, then you can

focus on the growth needs, which is the sale. So those are exploration, love,

sale. So those are exploration, love, and then at the very top of the sale is purpose or what Maslo called self-actualization.

And I love the sailboat analogy because Scott's point is that the boat portion is what keeps you afloat and then the sail is what makes you move forward.

>> And so if you have it's it's it's a if you have a sense of love in your life and you have a sense of purpose in your life and you feel free to explore as you as you may um that's what makes life feel very meaningful and vibrant and and

full of joy and purpose.

>> There's emotion to it. Yeah.

>> Yeah. But it's that's not even possible if you don't have those >> basic foundational >> your ship. You're not going anywhere. It

doesn't matter how big your sail is.

>> It doesn't matter how much wind there is. If you if you're broke and uh uh

is. If you if you're broke and uh uh physically unsafe, it doesn't matter.

>> Yeah. Reminds me too of uh David Brooks's book uh Second Mountain. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, he talks a lot about a lot of us spend, you know, half of our lives usually about like climbing one mountain to realize, oh, there's another mountain that we need to climb and that mountain is the meaning and the purpose

and all of that. But without, for most of us, without those first that first kind of uh trek up that first mountain and securing that, securing the boat, mixing metaphors pretty badly here. Um,

without that, it's really hard to achieve that second mountain, too.

>> Yeah. Brook says you can't even see the second mountain. You have to be on the

second mountain. You have to be on the peak of the first mountain >> to even see that there's >> this. I go back to the the the people in

>> this. I go back to the the the people in my life. There's several people in my

my life. There's several people in my life around me right now who are going through this and I' I've pointed them to that and I'm like, "Oh, you're you're ready for the second mountain."

>> Dude, I've I've recommended that book [snorts] so many times. So many times.

And and the other beautiful thing about that analogy, too, and this this relates to Victor Frankle's existential vacuum is that Brook says that to get from the top of the first mountain to the second mountain, you have to descend

>> Oh, yeah.

>> into the valley. saddle there, right?

>> Yeah. Where you feel lost and and aimless and dark and you don't know where anything is and what you're doing anymore and and it's uh >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Two great books, two great metaphors, two friends of the show.

>> Yes. All right. Work. We put a lot of emphasis on it to to find meaning.

There's ways you can find meaning in your work without it being the purpose itself. We've already talked about that.

itself. We've already talked about that.

But what about like other sources of meaning outside of work?

>> Um we've we've danced around some of these already. I feel like I have

these already. I feel like I have several different purposes across my life and so I can talk a little bit about that but you know there's there's nonwork-related sources of purpose that

we can kind of dig into a little. Okay.

>> I I think the biggest one by far is children.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Family and children. Yeah.

>> Yes. Family and children is by far the biggest one. Um, what's interesting

biggest one. Um, what's interesting about that is that for the majority of people, vast majority of people, not everybody, but the vast majority of people, that is that is hardwired. That

kicks in. I I

>> It's what humans do.

>> Yeah. It's [laughter] I mean, it makes sense.

>> It's what we do.

>> It makes sense. It's a it's a it's the whole reason we're here, literally. Um,

but it's I can't tell you how many parents I've talked to that that they're like, "Yeah, this the second my kid is born. Everything else

born. Everything else >> gets downgraded substantially in terms of importance. Like all this other stuff

of importance. Like all this other stuff I thought I cared about, it's like >> don't care anymore. Don't have time for it."

it." >> I was a lot of my cousins were all around the same age. Um, and one of them has a few he's had kids pretty young and he just he told me he's like when you

have kids he's like you would not believe how quickly you become last in your life and you're so okay with it.

>> You're totally okay with it.

>> And that's a huge component of purpose is like there's just something that's way bigger than me, way more important than myself.

>> And the and the sacrifice and struggle is real. Um, it's, you know, I, A lot of

is real. Um, it's, you know, I, A lot of kids are great. A lot of kids are easy.

And a lot of kids are not.

>> Little [ __ ] Yeah. [laughter]

>> A lot of kids are really, >> let's Yeah. Let's not sugar coat it.

>> Yeah. Like, a lot of kids are not. No, I

I' I've got a I have a few people in my life who who have little [ __ ] kids.

[laughter] >> Sorry, >> if you want to put it that way, Drew, I was going to say they >> I like kids, but there are some [ __ ] kids.

>> There are some I mean, but there also like I mean, there are kids with developmental challenges. There are kids

developmental challenges. There are kids with Yeah. [laughter]

with Yeah. [laughter] with like mental health challenges of, you know, learning disabilities. Uh,

[laughter] >> you can just see the shame on your >> face.

[laughter] I [gasps] feel like an [ __ ] >> And yes, some of them are [ __ ] but some of them are just awful. But

>> they're still kids. [laughter]

>> But yeah, I mean, I I have a I have a few people in my life who who have very difficult children for various reasons.

And um uh it's it's tough man. Like it's

tough watching them like they are struggling a lot mentally, emotionally, physically in some cases like they parents give up so much. It's

it's again if you think about that that that equation you know it's like when you're a parent you are the only you are

uniquely situated and and positioned to to raise this child. You are their only father or their only mother. Uh when you are you are contributing something far greater than yourself. Something that's

going to outlive yourself. is by

definition an immortality project for you and you are suffering and struggling and giving up so so so much for that child. You can see why it is overloaded

child. You can see why it is overloaded on purpose um and then also in many cases simultaneously uh devoid of of of happiness or

pleasure. It is a deeply stressful and

pleasure. It is a deeply stressful and hard time for for many parents not not all parents. So, um, and I think too,

all parents. So, um, and I think too, again, we get into that diversification issue. A lot of parents burn out. A lot

issue. A lot of parents burn out. A lot

of parents lose themselves.

>> They stop getting a sense of purpose from their career or from their friends or from their hobbies and interests.

>> Um, and it's and they suffer the consequences of that. They they get burnt out from it. Um,

>> yeah. I think especially now where it's like >> to there's this whole idea in the Zeit guys right now that to be a good parent you have to be just like >> all in all the time all the time you got

to make pay for everything um all the activities for them and and show up to everything and all of that. Whereas, you

know, I think at one point, this is getting into this old man shaking my fist, but you know, [laughter] when we when we were growing up, when we were growing up, >> when we were growing up, and it was already changing by this point, actually, but you know, it was your

parent, you would go to places, your parents would go to their friends house and you were expected to just behave and, you know, shut the [ __ ] up. Shut

the hell up and [laughter] Yeah. But now

it's like, oh, if you're not doing every little thing for your kid, you're you're doing this. Yeah. And I think a lot of

doing this. Yeah. And I think a lot of people I know a lot of people in my life anyway um who you know they've gone through some of that their kids are starting to get a little bit older at least a little more independent and they don't know who they are because they've

put so much time and effort into that.

And I don't know I think it there's it goes a little bit back to what we were talking about like you talking about with the the the educator in the in the prison. Yeah.

prison. Yeah.

>> Um it's one of those things where you look back on it and you find all the purpose in it. We talked about this in the happiness episode too where you know parenting there you have the experiencing self and the remembering

self and often times parenting is uh the the purpose and the value and the the meaning you get out of it is very much after the fact it's in the remembering self not in the experiencing self >> but that can get hijacked a little bit

too like I was just saying you can get way too far into the experience during during parenting you overindex on it.

>> Yeah. Um and and yeah, that causes a whole bunch of problems. >> Yeah, I I do think there's there's this toxic culture of parenthood that's going on right now. It is kind of sick. Like,

you know, I I think one of the reasons that parents overdo it or feel like they need to overdo it is the fear of judgment from other parents, >> right?

>> And but those other parents are also overdoing it because they're afraid of being judged by other parents. And so

you you get this like this Mexican standoff where like everybody's miserable and everybody wishes they could have a little bit of their life back, but they don't want to do it cuz they don't want to look like the shitty parents in their neighborhood or at their school.

>> Uh and then secondly, like from what I've observed, like this this just it's just true. It hits women much harder

just true. It hits women much harder than men.

>> Uh yes. and and we could spend a lot of time on the reasons for that, but I think everybody would agree that just women there's way more expectations around women [clears throat] uh to spend more time with their kids and to

identify as a mother much more than than guys. Like generally men find a lot more

guys. Like generally men find a lot more meaning and purpose in their work um and and will like they can justify maintaining that uh because they somebody in the household needs to to

invest a lot in their career. I you know it's I just know that from working in this industry for a long long long time.

>> Uh middle-aged women are kind of the breadandbut consumers of personal development advice. And probably the

development advice. And probably the most common story that you hear from them is, "I've I've spent the last decade plus uh being a mom. I'm

stretched thin. I don't know who I am anymore. I just give give give. uh I

anymore. I just give give give. uh I

feel like nobody ever makes time for me.

I don't even know what I want anymore, you know, etc., etc. And it's it's to me that's like a classic case of this, you know, the dark side of purpose, like you

you overindex on one source of purpose.

You go all in all all in on it. You lose

that diversification.

You stop making time to take care of yourself. You stop um prioritizing other

yourself. You stop um prioritizing other things in your life. And uh you know, you get 5 10 years down that road, you don't even remember who you are anymore.

Yeah.

>> And you're burnt out. You're sick of everything.

>> Uh and you just want to go sit on a beach somewhere and >> drink drink margaritas into a stouper, >> right? Yeah. [laughter] Or leave your

>> right? Yeah. [laughter] Or leave your family and move to Tahiti. There you go.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, go read the second mountain. [laughter]

mountain. [laughter] >> I think that's that's that's my advice there.

>> Yeah.

>> Um Okay. So, so outside of family, um there's a few other things a few other sources that are common. Anyway,

service volunteering >> social contribution within your community. You and I talk about this all

community. You and I talk about this all the time. We're overindexed on the

the time. We're overindexed on the global, under indexed on the local.

>> And and people underestimate this. They

It feels like when you when even when we talk about this, it feels like we're talking about a chore. Yeah.

>> It's like it feels like I'm telling people like, you know, if you do your dishes more often, you'll be happier.

like it's just like nobody wants to hear this, but the research is >> uh overwhelming and and you you I experienced this myself like when I do

go out and do something um or or do something charitable or or give back in some way, I I'm always blown away at how good it feels and how meaningful it feels.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but the older I get, the more I think about this kind of thing because there there comes kind of >> I think the older you get, there comes a little bit of a responsibility mindset

that comes in to mind anyway. You're

like "Oh >> you know, you you've been growing up and everybody else has been taking care of these things." And you you start looking

these things." And you you start looking around and you're like, "Oh, we're the ones who have to take care of these things now. I'm the one who has to take

things now. I'm the one who has to take care of my community. I'm the one who has to take care of >> uh whatever problems or issues are going on around me." there's a there's a

responsibility that you have and if so if you can connect that to a greater purpose, you know, just I like there's a great food bank where I'm from uh and they have a fantastic food bank and just

giving a little bit of money to them helps a lot. But going down and like helping them pack food or organize things and stuff like that, you get a lot more. You know, it's great to give

lot more. You know, it's great to give them a check. That's fine. Donate to

them, that's awesome. But like when you actually get in there, again, it goes back to those who are the exact people you're helping and you see these people face to face. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Like it's it's insane.

>> Yeah. It's funny the so Kant's formula of humanity.

>> He didn't write it as a suggestion. He

didn't say like, "Hey, this is the right way to live. You should try to live this way." He actually wrote about it. He

way." He actually wrote about it. He

used the word duty. He said that we all have a duty like a moral obligation to make people the the end and of itself to and everything else becomes a mean. Like

he's like this is not this is not optional. like if you're not doing this,

optional. like if you're not doing this, you're [ __ ] up. [laughter]

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And and and like as you just you kind of alluded to it there that there's kind of this >> this sense of like, you know, hey, I'm I'm an adult now and things are going pretty well and a lot of people help me

and you you look around and and you feel like there is some sense of obligation of like I should be doing something. I

should be helping in some way. Um, Kant

would say, "Yes, you have a duty to to do things with humanity as an in and of itself."

itself." >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I just go back

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I just go back to like the nobody else is going to do it.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Somebody else will do it and there might not be the way you want to do it. Like

so the the contribution side too is like like I'm leaving my mark here as well, you know. So there's that.

you know. So there's that.

>> Your your immortality project.

>> It is an immortality project for sure.

>> Okay. The last kind of area I actually want to get your take on this because I'm not >> I want to know like hobbies like leisure activity people you can find purpose in

these I think to some extent but how much and how important and how enduring is that purpose do you think so like for example I talk about this all the time woodworking I love making things and

building things >> I don't I I see it more as just kind of like a a passion and even a little bit of a therapeutic outlet for me you know it gets me away from screens it gets me moving gets me creatively engaged in

physical ways.

>> Um, I'm not sure if I find a ton of purpose. Sometimes I'll like I use those

purpose. Sometimes I'll like I use those skills to help other people and that's purposeful to me. So maybe that's one avenue by which you can turn those >> types of activities into more purposeful things, but what do you think about like

leisure and hobbies? And

>> I think it can have a marginal amount of purpose to it. Like I don't think I'm kind of with you. I don't think it's a major contribution. And I think when it

major contribution. And I think when it is a major contribution of purpose to somebody's life, it's actually because the the hobby or the the pursuit is it's a vehicle for something else. It's it's

either like how you keep in touch with your your friends and family. I'll give

you an example like I so, as you know, I grew up in uh uh small town outside of Austin in Texas. My family is [ __ ] obsessed with football. Like I I joke to

people, I'm like, "Yeah, my family's love language is football." Like it's it's crazy. I think if you charted my

it's crazy. I think if you charted my text messages with both my parents and my brother, it would spike in September each year and then crater in February every year because it's just like

completely in parallel with football season.

>> It's just it's what everybody talks about. It's what everybody does. I just

about. It's what everybody does. I just

went to a family family reunion in Austin >> and what did we do? We spent the entire Saturday sitting around watching football together. Like that's all we

football together. Like that's all we did for the entire day. Uh, so I do love football, but it football feels when I think about it, uh, and I think about

like the teams I cheer for, I don't really give a [ __ ] about the teams. >> It's it's the the connection that I have with my family, right? It's, uh, it's my dad's favorite team or it's my mom's

favorite team or it's my brother's favorite team and like, oh, we went to a game together that that one time and we had so much fun and it's like that's what's meaningful about it. Um I so I

think I think the the social connection is um you know hobbies and interests can be one pathway to that and I I will say the other way you can derive some sense

of purpose and meaning from from hobbies is again that pursuit of excellence right it's like if you get really good at something >> and you put a lot you really >> really put in the effort to get good at

that thing >> I do think that can be that can feel meaningful to you >> it's definitely in another category or tier is some of this other stuff. Like

you you're never going to be more proud of your woodworking than you are of your kid probably. But

kid probably. But >> but like you can be very proud of your woodworking.

>> This is where again where people like they'll confuse the passion for a purpose.

>> And I think this is where they get bogged down is in like their hobbies and creative projects and all of that. And I

there's nothing wrong with those. I

think absolutely pursue those that for me like I said there's there's like a mental health aspect to it almost you know and >> um kind of it helps me practice mindfulness in a lot of ways and mastery and all of those things

>> but if you can't like kind of transmute it into a larger purpose around whether it is connection or helping others or whatever it is. Yeah, I think there's limited utility to it.

>> I will say this uh you know as you know I took a sabbatical in 2022 took about six months off >> I basically did nothing but leisure activities. I [clears throat] was so

activities. I [clears throat] was so miserable. I was bored out of my [ __ ]

miserable. I was bored out of my [ __ ] mind. [laughter]

mind. [laughter] >> I was like, >> I haven't talked to you a whole lot about that, but I remember that. I was

like, what is going on?

>> I So, first of all, I burnt myself out so hard. Yep.

so hard. Yep.

>> And then I started taking time off and uh yeah, by the second I mean, the first month was really nice. I was just like I just slept and played video games and traveled with the wife and >> but yeah, by the second month I was I

was bored out of my mind. I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing with my life? I I started doing [ __ ] around the

life? I I started doing [ __ ] around the house. I was like desperate to find

house. I was like desperate to find something useful to do with myself and uh it was definitely that lack of purpose. Like I just

purpose. Like I just >> I just felt aimless.

>> You probably needed that.

>> I did.

>> Yeah. You know, you needed some some wandering.

>> Yeah, I I think I did. A lot

a lot came out of that that was very useful. And maybe maybe that's another

useful. And maybe maybe that's another strategy that we would add to the previous section which is um which is just actually abstaining from something will tell you how much it matters to you.

>> Like there have been many points in my life where like I thought something was important and then when I stopped doing it I didn't miss it, >> right?

>> And then there are other times where it's like I stopped doing something and I missed it horribly and I was like oh okay that actually meant a lot to me. M

>> I would say things like creating things for me like that's one of those things if I stop doing that >> Yes.

>> I go nuts. So I know that that's something I need to be doing.

>> Same.

>> Yeah.

>> Same.

>> So we've covered strategies to achieve more purpose in your life. Let's go

through like some actual tools and frameworks. So like some actual things

frameworks. So like some actual things that you can do and try. I would say the first thing is this is going to sound really boring but assessments you know coming back to that equation of like

really understanding yourself and what you are predisposed to be good at or inclined to do I do think it's useful to do various personality assessments skill assessments talent assessments um and

also most importantly a values assessment uh we talked about this back in the values episode at the beginning of the podcast but >> just going through a values questionnaire and

being forced to sort through like what you actually care about the most. Um,

and the purpose app itself to create an account, we make you go through a series of assessments and answer a number of questions just so we can get a baseline reading of like, okay, this is this person's personality, this is what they

care about, this is what they find important. Um, so I would say if you're

important. Um, so I would say if you're completely lost, like have no idea where to start, start with some very basic assessments, questionnaires, try to get a little bit of understanding for

yourself. Um, and what you actually

yourself. Um, and what you actually like.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think the values one is huge. That I think it's where you really

huge. That I think it's where you really should start. I I don't know. I've

should start. I I don't know. I've

gotten limited utility out of like >> find your passion or your purpose tools or whatever.

>> The values one is what's helped me the most though. Yeah, for sure.

most though. Yeah, for sure.

The next thing I'll say, there are a couple frameworks that you can think about um that are potentially useful, you know. So, there's this great there's

you know. So, there's this great there's this great vin diagram uh that comes from Japan called eeky and it's it's basically if you imagine four circles that all overlap with each other. Uh one

is what you love to do, one is what you're good at, one is what the world needs, and then one is what you're good enough to get paid for. Ideally,

[clears throat] the eeky guy is finding the intersection of all four of those things. And I think most people can

things. And I think most people can probably find the intersection of two or three of those things in their life. So,

if you can find two or three of them, then you know how to like work towards the the fourth. There's another tool uh that's widely used in life coaching. In

fact, the official institute of life coaching certification recommends the use of this tool for all coaching clients. uh it's the called the wheel of

clients. uh it's the called the wheel of life and it's basically just an assessment of how satisfied you are in each domain of your life and uh where you feel like you need to do the most

work and then ideally you fill out the the wheel of life consistently over time and then you see the trade-offs that are happening based on the decisions that you're making.

>> Um again we use the wheel of life in the purpose app. it is part of the

purpose app. it is part of the onboarding experience and it is something that we follow up with the user with consistently um just because it it it shows so much like it's and

it's funny how much people lack awareness of where they're at in their lives but like you might be feeling anxious or depressed or lonely or whatever. But when you sit down and

whatever. But when you sit down and start actually giving a 1 to 10 rating on every single category of your life, you you you will naturally spot some patterns and some uh inconsistencies

that maybe you weren't quite aware of.

>> What what are some of these categories?

I guess they they take you through what are the big categories. I've never done this one before. So

>> it's very simple. So um it's I believe the standard one is it's nine or 10 categories. So, it's like career,

categories. So, it's like career, family, social, social life, um, uh, romantic relationship, learning, h, uh,

hobbies community health.

>> So, that's like a whole 360 like comes at it from every angle. I really like that.

>> Total 360.

>> I really like that. Yeah. Like we talked about, it's like it's not just work, right? Or it's not just your

right? Or it's not just your relationship. It's all of these things.

relationship. It's all of these things.

>> Yeah. It's as somebody who's done it a few times myself, like it is crazy because like cuz it's crazy like if you if you ask me on any given day like throughout my life like how are things

going? I'm like uh pretty good, you

going? I'm like uh pretty good, you know, could be better but also pretty good overall. Um

good overall. Um >> seven out of 10.

>> I'm a seven out of 10 or I'm an eight out of 10. And but what happens when you do the wheel of life? you start noticing like, "Okay, wait. I'm a 9 out of 10 here and a 10 out of 10 here and a five out of 10 here >> and then an 8 out of 10 and a 9 out of

10 and an 8 out of 10." And you're like, "Whoa." Okay. Yeah. I never actually

"Whoa." Okay. Yeah. I never actually stopped and thought about like, "I'm a five there. Why? Why is that?"

five there. Why? Why is that?"

>> And and again, when you track it over time, you you start to innately kind of see where you're making the trade-offs.

You're like, "Okay, I'm a 10 in these two categories and I'm a five in these two categories." and I actually see

two categories." and I actually see exactly where the time and energy is being removed from these categories and put into these categories.

>> So it it can be very useful.

>> How cool.

>> So another tool that people can use is uh like a purpose statement or purpose manifesto. Um it's basically a written

manifesto. Um it's basically a written exercise and and there there are some forms of guided versions of this that you can do, but uh it's it can be as simple as as simply stating like a life

mission for yourself. Um, it can be as explicit as just writing out the the top three most important values of yourself.

It can be as, you know, official as creating like a life constitution. Like

I've I've talked to people who've done all of these things and um and I it can be useful to varying degrees in business. One of the things that I think

business. One of the things that I think people who don't run a business don't think about a whole lot like this is actually a huge topic within a business.

like if you're the CEO or on the exact team like you spend a lot of time thinking about what are our values, what's our purpose, what's our mission, uh and like what are the things that

we're optimizing for and what are the things that we're willing to give up or sacrifice to optimize for those things.

And in the context of business, it's like very much just a practical like you can't do everything, you can't be everything.

What is your mission? like what is what is the thing that makes that like defines why your business should exist?

Okay, great. You've defined that. Uh how

is that helping your customers or helping the world? Okay, great. Now,

let's define all of the values and and sacrifices that you're willing to make.

CEOs spend a lot of time doing this and thinking about this. Uh and and Business consultants charge a fuckload of money to to help CEOs do this. Uh but it's funny because this like you don't really

see this happen in people's personal like people don't think about this from like their personal life.

>> Um they don't they don't do it with themselves and they don't think in those terms with themselves.

>> Uh and I think it it could potentially be useful.

>> Is there sometimes it gets to be almost this magical aura around writing things down.

>> Yes.

>> Right. What I you've I've heard you recommend it before. Yes.

>> Um and I when if there's something important I'll write things down too.

What is it about just like getting it out of your head and onto paper or whatever?

>> I don't think it's anything special about the paper. I think it's it's the language formation that happens. the

like >> the thinking process.

>> The thinking process like I I think it's when you write you are thinking differently than you are if you're just sitting silently contemplating something or even speaking something like it there's something about writing there's

something about the permanence of it >> the the formality of it that like it really makes your brain stop and think like okay what is the most concise and meaningful way for me to encapsulate

this feeling and this intention into words.

>> Yeah. And then the process of doing that like somehow creates clarity and direction and understanding in a way that >> other things don't.

>> Okay. Yeah. And I I on top of that too, I think what I found anyway is the things I go back to that I've written.

You talked about the permanence aspect of it. Yes. When you go back to it, it's

of it. Yes. When you go back to it, it's almost like you can transport yourself back to when you were thinking that way.

You remember especially around things like important things like purpose, right? Yeah, you go, if you write it

right? Yeah, you go, if you write it down, a couple months later, you come back to it, you're kind of reminded of, oh, this is how I felt. This is was my motivation at the time. You're reminded

of that past self. It can either act as a reminder, like a refresher. Um, or it can show you progress, right? You're

like, "Oh, I used to think that way.

That's funny. Things have changed so much.

>> How have they changed?" And then you kind of go through the exercise and write again. But it's funny. I mean

write again. But it's funny. I mean

coming back to the business point I mean it's a lot of business books and advisors and stuff like they they recommend going back to your mission and values repeatedly like repeating them ad

nauseium just cuz people forget people get distracted. They're like they get

get distracted. They're like they get caught up in hitting that quarter's bonus or uh getting that month's paycheck and and like people forget why they do things and and what the the

original intention was to to do those things. I also think something as

things. I also think something as abstract as purpose and philosophical as purpose like you really do like the writing aspect of it like really does

help you pin it down like put a nail in it. Um actually

it. Um actually not to promo too much of my own [ __ ] but uh there is a subtle art journal and we do one of the there's five sections in the the the subtle art journal and and

one of the five section sections is a series of written exercises on how to build more purpose in your life. Um and

actually a lot of this is another tool that I I will list here which is a time audit. So ah

audit. So ah >> we we used to offer years ago we used to offer a free PDF that was a time audit and it was basically a time audit is exactly what it sounds like. You sit

down, you write out how you're spending each of your days, how much time you're spending on each thing, and then you go back and you rate uh from 1 to 10 how important or fulfilling that activity

feels to you. And then you do the math and add everything up and and usually you're shocked or appalled at how much time you're spending on [ __ ] that doesn't really matter and how little time you're spending on the stuff that

really does matter. Um so time audits can be extremely useful and very valuable. Um, you can, again, there's

valuable. Um, you can, again, there's plenty of them out there, plenty of them online. I Ours ours is are probably

online. I Ours ours is are probably still on the website, >> probably somewhere. Yeah. I don't know.

I actually recently went a little while back I did it just because we like we were working on the podcast and we're trying to grow it and everything. I was

just like I felt like I was stretched so thin. I didn't I was like I am I not

thin. I didn't I was like I am I not being efficient? It was not what what is

being efficient? It was not what what is going on. And so I did this for like I

going on. And so I did this for like I think about a week a work week anyway.

And yeah, it was eye opening. It really

I mean it was just there was so many things I was getting distracted with.

You're like oh that is outside of the the purpose of why I'm doing this. So

it's 100% it can be very very clarifying.

>> Yeah. I used to uh I used to do do one every New Year's.

>> Yeah.

>> And um and then I would [clears throat] also do it with um you know I I'd kind of frame my goal setting around how I would be using my time. You know, the

funny thing about purpose is that when you really boil down to it, it is simply using your time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's how am I going to use my time?

>> Yeah. It's it's been using it, how should I use it?

>> Yeah. It's like it is that simple. It's

just that feeling like your time is being used well. That is what a sense of purpose is, is that it's it's your time is valuable and it's being it's being spent well.

>> So, another simple tool or exercise people can do is um something called purpose setting. Um, everybody knows

purpose setting. Um, everybody knows what goal setting is. It's been around for decades. Um, most people know about the

decades. Um, most people know about the best practices for goals, smart goals.

Uh, purpose setting is something that's a little bit more recent. Um,

researchers Mcnite and Castton uh came up with it in 2009 and they defined it as simply like again coming back to the means and ends chain. It's like okay, set your goals and then look at the

goals and then just ask what what is the why behind that, right? Like what is the the purpose that unites those goals? um

and creates like a kind of a coherence between those goals uh and what is the in and of itself that the goals are are working towards. Um so and I think this

working towards. Um so and I think this is just a valuable habit mental habit for people to get in regardless of what they're doing. Like anytime you have

they're doing. Like anytime you have you're motivated to pursue something or you have some goal or something you care about just ask yourself why. Like you

want to lose 20 pounds. Okay, why? Well,

I want to I'm going to see my ex and I want to impress them. Okay, why? Well,

I'm kind of insecure about my relationship and the fact that I'm still single and uh you know, I I want to make a good impression. Well, why?

Cuz I don't feel good enough and I [laughter] I [gasps] I'm insecure. Uh

[ __ ] you. I don't want to play this game anymore. [laughter]

anymore. [laughter] >> That sounds fun, Mark. Yeah, sign me up.

Yeah. No, I get it. Yeah. But yeah, it's it's uh I used to call this back in the day, I used to call this the why game, which is just like keep asking why until the answer becomes circular, right?

[clears throat] It's like, okay, why do you feel insecure and inadequate? It's

like, well, I don't know. I just feel insecure and inadequate. It's like,

okay, cool. Now you found now you found the root motivation.

>> Um, you know, now how do you tie that to a sense of purpose, right? It's like,

[clears throat] >> um, is losing 20 pounds really going to change that?

>> Probably not.

>> Yeah. Yeah. What will Okay, cool. Yeah.

Okay. So, when when me and the team when we were researching all these different, you know, tools and methods and all of this going through it. Like I said, I've kind of found limited utility in a lot of these and I wasn't really ever sure why, but I think we kind of found a

little bit of a reason at least. And if

you're going through this and this all sounds overwhelming, there's all these different tools. First, what you can do

different tools. First, what you can do is go to purpose.app/solved

and you can take the the purpose find your purpose test there for free. Um,

but also if you're just there's kind of some of these tools match your personalities differently. Like there's

personalities differently. Like there's all these tools out there that people are like, "Oh, this is going to help you find your purpose." And you go and take them and you're like, "That didn't really help me." And it's probably because it just doesn't really match your your personality or the way you

approach things. And we kind of found

approach things. And we kind of found these three different ways that people relate to this information and then you can match yourself with this tool. So,

for instance, one of them, if you're more of an autonomydriven person, so you're you're really looking for like exploration and autonomy and choosing uh in your life, then you're probably going

to do a lot better with like these open-ended reflections. So, we talked

open-ended reflections. So, we talked about journaling and just here's a few prompts, now write about them for a while. That's going to help you a lot

while. That's going to help you a lot more. On the other hand, if you're more

more. On the other hand, if you're more of like a competenceoriented person, maybe you're one of those people who it's like you're more you're career focused and achievement and you like growth, these frameworks like the eeky

guy um or the um the wheel the the wheel of life, those are better because you have this like framework in front of you and you're very structured in your optimizing for it.

>> Exactly.

>> Uh one we did kind of didn't talk about through this though is like relatedness focused people who those people who want to get more purpose out of their um relationships and their social circles.

um look at frameworks that um tie more of like the personal uh and social side to purpose uh and use those kinds of tools. So I think there is like a

tools. So I think there is like a there's a fit that you have to find with these.

>> Um which is why when people are like oh this is here's the frameworks going to help you find this out I'm skeptical and like I said I found limited utility in a lot of those. I mean this is what we're

trying to solve right like it's it's um you know with the with the purpose app like it is it is such an individual and personal thing >> exactly >> that that our hope is that with a

properly trained AI and with you know an ability to really personalize and challenge people on what they care about um we can create a one-sizefits-all solution for it. So um that's what we're

going for.

>> Yeah, super excited for it. That's Yeah,

check it out.

>> Check it out. purpose.app. Let's go.

All right, Drew, we are we are coming to the end here. Uh, as always, we do an 8020 section um for every solved episode, which is basically now that we

have bombarded you with hours and hours of information and tips and insights and exercises and things that you can do to improve purpose in your life, what is the 8020? What is the what are the few

the 8020? What is the what are the few things that move the needle the most? Um

I will kick it off and I will say I personally think uh really following your curiosity like learning to listen to yourself and this this comes all the way back to Aristotle where I think his

intention uh with his framework around Taos was this idea of like people living out their true nature. It really what he was referring to is this is that like you are naturally inclined towards

certain things. You have a natural

certain things. You have a natural aptitude towards certain things. And so

you are likely going to flourish the most in this world if you are leaning into those things that you are inclined to do and not trying to force yourself into something that you're not inclined to do.

>> Yeah. It's like the built-in passion there.

>> It sounds so simple. So simple. But so

many of us get derailed and and distracted by by the people around us, the world around us, you know, certain pressures, financial pressures, parental pressures. um it can actually be

pressures. um it can actually be extremely hard and if you are the person who has spent your entire life doing things to please others uh it can be a

very daunting task to suddenly wake up one day and be like oh [ __ ] I don't know who I am I don't even know what I like where do I start and this is where you start just

>> start following your curiosity >> right and probably go back to that Arthur Brooks uh advice get off your phone [laughter] like like can't hurt there's so often

times we have such a disconnection between like that little voice in our head, right? And not to get too cheesy

head, right? And not to get too cheesy here, but there's you're so disconnected from it and just modern digital tech is really good about letting you indulge that distraction. Yeah.

that distraction. Yeah.

>> So, it's like being able to sit with some of those uncomfortable feelings and get curious.

>> Yeah.

>> Um Okay. So, another one we could talk about the two which we just talked about was getting this down on paper, writing it down or using one of these systems at least, right? And that's just for some

least, right? And that's just for some clarity around this. So you you know what you're curious about. Now, how do I translate that into >> a practice? Yeah. Or or even just a direction that I want to take uh steps

to right?

>> And really, I think there's there's kind of two questions you could answer and maybe come back to repeatedly.

>> What contribution do you want to make?

>> And what kind of person do you want to be?

>> Y >> those two right there. If you can continuously ask and answer those, and that might change over time, that's fine. But I think getting getting clear

fine. But I think getting getting clear on that that incorporates a lot of your values um a lot of your passions if it will be in a direct gives you a

direction as well. So use these frameworks that we just talked about use write some write this down in some way get it out of your head in some way.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and and be able to use a framework or at least some sort of system that helps you out with this.

>> Yeah. And I think the most important thing too is that once you do have that realization >> of [clears throat] what you care about, what mission you're on, what you really want to do,

>> start taking action. Like it's it's purpose is not you don't >> it's active.

>> You don't achieve purpose sitting on the couch thinking about it. Like you need to get out in the world and actually do it. And this is something that we spend

it. And this is something that we spend a lot of time on in in the app as well is like the the sequence that the AI is trained to go through is, you know, figure out the person's value values,

what they care about, figure out what they're struggling with, and then determine where the misalignment is between what they care about and what their actual actions and experiences are, and then getting those into

alignment. And often that can be a

alignment. And often that can be a drastic change in your life. Often it

can be extremely simple. It can be something as simple as like, you know, just stop drinking on week nights and get up an hour earlier. You know, it's I I think people um as like what tends to

happen with people is that they assume when they want to change something in their lives, they assume that they need to make this drastic dramatic change >> and and completely alter everything about their life. And it's like nine

times out of 10, you'd be surprised how far a small change gets you.

>> Yeah. It's it's one change, but it has a dramatic effect. Yeah. Yeah. Along those

dramatic effect. Yeah. Yeah. Along those

lines, setting some boundaries. Okay.

guys, we got a boundaries episode coming up. Um, but when you have a purpose, uh,

up. Um, but when you have a purpose, uh, a clearer purpose in mind, >> I think it's one, it's easier to set some boundaries around your time and your energy. Um, and it's also much more

your energy. Um, and it's also much more apparent of where in your life you need to set those, right? So if if you do if you're going to set aside some time to work on whatever maybe your career is

your passion or is your purpose at this point set aside you're like okay I'm going to work on this or business whatever this amount of time I'm going to do it everything else is it's pushed out. Yeah.

out. Yeah.

>> So setting getting good about setting boundaries. Uh maybe there's some people

boundaries. Uh maybe there's some people in your life too. We talk we're going to talk about this in the boundaries episode I think.

>> Yeah. Next month we're doing boundaries.

I'd say the big the big piece of this is setting expectations. expectations.

setting expectations. expectations.

That's a good way to put it. Yeah. It's

um >> like in the in my case this year, you know, I I went to my wife and we had a long conversation about the second business and everything. And

>> and with her, it was just like, "Okay, here's the expectation." Like, "I'm going to be working weekends. I'm going

to be working some nights." Like,

>> you did it with us, too. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I set expectations with all y'all. And uh it's uh it's important

y'all. And uh it's uh it's important like it's >> it's let other people know where you're at and then also uh protect that once it it when it's challenged.

>> It was I mean and it was very clarifying for us I think too. Like it was good when you sat you're like these are the days I'm not going to be available. And

so even if I was like frustrated I couldn't do something. I'm like well that I that's what he said.

>> Yeah.

>> He already [laughter] told me he told me what to expect. And so it wasn't like I was upset about it. There might have been frustrating parts about it like ah I wish I had more Mark's time or whatever but >> I I understood it. Yeah. Right. I

understood what was going on and why you were doing it. So

>> yes, expectation setting I think is a way to look at that.

>> Totally. And then the last piece I think is just that >> this is an ongoing process. Like you

never really finish thinking about it.

>> You never really finish talking about it. Um life changes. We we went through

it. Um life changes. We we went through the four life stages. You know you're you're natural. you are naturally

you're natural. you are naturally predisposed towards certain purposes based on what stage of life you're in.

>> You're going to have certain biases towards certain missions and purposes depending on what your natural aptitude is, what your environment is, uh what's going on in your life, who the people

are around you, what they care about. Um

it is it is a moving target and because it's a moving target you also need to be willing and able to move and al also keeping track of of of the things in

your life that are that are moving and changing. So um it is an ongoing process

changing. So um it is an ongoing process and it is uh last promotion I swear to God. Um, it is the it is one of the

God. Um, it is the it is one of the reasons why I'm so bullish on the potential of of AI to be able to to solve very deeply personal issues like

this because unlike a therapist or unlike a coach or unlike a friend, um, AI doesn't forget, it doesn't judge, it

doesn't condescend to you, it doesn't pretend like, oh, it wasn't listening.

it it knows it it it it remembers and it has context all the time 24/7. Um and I think it's the sort of thing that if we can if we can get the LLM to a place

where it is as good or better than a human um it it's going to be a superior solution for for a lot of problems and for a lot of people. Um so the last time

I'll shout it out uh this episode at least go to purpose.appsolved appsolved.

We are giving away a free course on finding purpose in your life. That the

course corsifies this entire episode. It

takes you step by step through everything we've talked about and lays out all these exercises and and tools that we've and frameworks that we've discussed um in a way that can help you find greater purpose in your life. Um

you will get it for free if you sign up for the for for the app and sign up for an annual plan. It is an offer that only lasts for the first two weeks of December. Um, so please go check it out.

December. Um, so please go check it out.

purpose.appsolved.

It's my gift to you. It is been my purpose this year, pun intended. Um, and

it is it's been a a labor of love. This

is a business I didn't have to start.

Uh, my co-founder did not have to start.

Like we were financially in a good position. I certainly didn't like from a

position. I certainly didn't like from a time and mental health perspective, I certainly didn't have to [laughter] do this. Um, so I I've I've given a lot to

this. Um, so I I've I've given a lot to it and uh I believe very deeply in it and I think it's going to be uh >> I keep telling people I'm like it it's it's 20 30 years from now it will

potentially be the best thing I ever did if it works like that basically right like I'm hopeful that it that's how it's going to turn out. Um I'm very proud of it and but we also still have a lot of

work to do. So please check it out, use it, uh enjoy it, uh learn from it. Uh

20% of you will probably cry when you talk to it, but it'll be good tears.

[laughter] >> Excited. That's awesome. Congrats again,

>> Excited. That's awesome. Congrats again,

Mark. That's

>> Thank you. All right, we are at the end.

What did you learn, Drew? Did you What What's your big takeaway from this one?

>> So, yeah. Um kind of leads into what you finish with a little bit ago. Um

purpose is a moving target. It's a

changing thing. One of the things though too, I actually there was a little trepidation with me going into this one because I'm like, "Oh boy, I gotta be able to articulate a purpose." And then we got into a lot of this and I'm like, "Oh, look at all this. It's okay to have

multiple purposes and there's all these different sources of purpose >> and that to me was like a real big it was a relief honestly because I've talked with you about this a lot. It's

like I'm fascinated by everything. I'm I

things just catch my attention. I have

shiny object syndrome sometimes, you know. Mhm.

know. Mhm.

>> Um I want to be able to do everything like competence is kind of a core value of mine and I want to be able to do things well. Um but it was really good

things well. Um but it was really good to go back and be like okay no actually my values one of them is competence sure. Um another one is growth and

sure. Um another one is growth and learning. Um and then benevolence too.

learning. Um and then benevolence too.

Those are like kind of three core values of mine. And

of mine. And >> I can there's I already in my life I have areas of my life that fulfill those purposes or fulfill those values in a purposeful way I should say. And I'm a

lot more at peace with that. Like I'm

okay with being a little bit of a all over the place. Like I'm okay with that.

Um there's not just one way to do purpose and there's not just one big purpose that you have.

>> There's more than one way to do purpose and have purpose in your life. There's

not just one big purpose that you have to have. Some people are like that and

to have. Some people are like that and that's great.

>> And the outcomes are going to be different. Sure.

different. Sure.

>> But yeah, I'm a lot more at peace with like, yeah, I have several purposes in my life and I get to act them out all the time. How lucky am I? Like I I I I

the time. How lucky am I? Like I I I I really did come to >> uh terms with that to come to peace with it. Yeah.

it. Yeah.

>> That's cool.

>> Yeah.

>> So you don't feel like you have like an overarching >> mission or >> I mean I think if anything if the one thing that ties it all together, it's like the benevolence aspect. It's the

helping people. So if I can find a way like if I'm like for instance, this was one thing I thought of is like with my passions like woodworking or something like that. If I can use that because I

like that. If I can use that because I love woodworking. you know, like DIY

love woodworking. you know, like DIY stuff and like if I can help I and I end up helping a lot of my friends in that way and I do get a lot of like meaning and purpose out of that.

>> Um, and so if there's anything that just like a overarching theme, it's being helpful to others. I also I'm just in a I'm in a very very fortunate position

and have been in a lot of ways and even the the things that were stacked against me turned into benefits for me and I just feel like I have some sort of goes

back to that duty that sense of sense of duty that I have to use my all of my gifts and my talents and the and the the privileges that I have to help other

people out and that like I just I get an immense amount of purpose out of that.

I've also realized another thing I realized along with that is that I at some someday I'm gonna have that's not gonna work anymore.

>> Yeah.

>> Um I watched for instance my I think my grandfather um was uh like this. He was

a very helpful guy. He wanted to help and he was like he was a real handy. He

was a carpenter. He's a real handy guy.

He was always going around his neighbors and helping them out for free. And he

was he he got a lot of his identity and a lot of purpose in life from helping people. And I saw him as he got older

people. And I saw him as he got older and and his physical health, you know, he was in his 80s when he passed away.

his physical health was draining and it really really it ate at Yeah. It ate at him. So I realized I was like, "Oh, that

him. So I realized I was like, "Oh, that like I'm gonna have to deal with that someday."

someday." >> Yeah. And it comes back to that

>> Yeah. And it comes back to that diversification, right? It's um I think

diversification, right? It's um I think for me it's funny cuz I I think I kind of had the opposite experience as you.

>> No, that's great.

>> Prepping for this episode. Um

>> as I said at the top of the show, like this this topic has been my wheelhouse for most of my career. It's it's funny out of all like there are many things that I've written about throughout my

career that I felt like I needed to really research to understand and then there are certain topics that I just feel like I intuitively understood.

>> Like there are there are two or three topics that like >> even when I went and did the research and looked up the papers I was like yeah I kind of already knew that like just intuitively.

>> And purpose has been one of those topics for me. And I think for me the most

for me. And I think for me the most profound aspect of this this episode was digging into the dark side of purpose.

It's something that's always sat in the back of my mind, you know, that that that statement of like, well, Hitler had a pretty good strong life purpose, you know, like how did that work out?

>> I've never really let myself explore that and like why that's there and how easily people can fall into it. Um,

and it's interesting and also kind of exploring the the burnout aspect, the lack of diversification.

>> This is my biggest takeaway is that for whatever reason, I seem to go all in on single things. Like my

entire life, I've been like this. I

think there's something inherent about my personality >> that it's really hard for me to diversify. I'm like the opposite of you

diversify. I'm like the opposite of you in that sense. Like it's like even you put a gun to my head and tell me to diversify my purpose and it's like my brain just doesn't know how. I'm like

>> I'm like sorry dude I got a mission. Uh

it's >> and I look at you know I I've I've been very public but um you know I've struggled with depression on and off throughout my life I >> pretty much every five or six years like

clockwork I go through a pretty dark phase. And uh

phase. And uh >> and I look at it and I think it's what it is is it's like I'm not diversified in terms of purpose. And so at some point that sense of purpose fails like

every every source of purpose fails at some point >> or is lost rather and and then when it's lost like I haven't diversified so I'm lost. I just kind of fall into the abyss

lost. I just kind of fall into the abyss and and then I have to go through this process of like clawing my way back out thinking about what I care about pursuing my curiosity reaching out to

people like going through this whole kind of ugly confusing process. And I've

done that repeatedly. my entire life.

And I guess just this episode like it it tied a bunch of those those strands together. It's like, okay, this topic

together. It's like, okay, this topic has come very naturally to me throughout my career because I think I have such a a roller coaster experience with it.

>> Like I'm either all in on purpose and and it's like I and I'm really good at it. Like if when I do have a purpose

it. Like if when I do have a purpose >> when you're in it, Yeah.

>> I'm really good. Like I will shut everything. Like I'm the not give a [ __ ]

everything. Like I'm the not give a [ __ ] guy. Like, I don't care what you think.

guy. Like, I don't care what you think.

I'll embarrass myself. I don't [ __ ] care. Like, I'm on a mission. But then

care. Like, I'm on a mission. But then

when that mission's over or it fails, I I'm lost and I flounder. And um and so do prepping and and doing the dark side section, like I guess it it illuminated

a lot of my own tendencies and and helped me understand myself a little bit better. Um

better. Um >> you were so excited to do that section.

I was like, "What is [laughter] you get like the crazy eyes and everything when we were prepping for this?" I was like, "All right, that makes sense now.

[laughter] It makes sense."

>> Yeah, it was therapeutic. It was very like, "Okay, cuz I mean, I'll be honest, like everything else in this episode like is pretty old hat for me." Like,

I've been talking about pretty much everything in this for >> Yeah.

>> a decade. And And then I just built an a [ __ ] software product based on a lot of this. So, it's like it's all very

of this. So, it's like it's all very fresh in my head. But like the dark side stuff was like >> it was fun to get finally get to explore that and then also kind of understand some of the some of the aspects of

myself and the struggles that I've had throughout my life um in terms of that.

So >> very illuminating.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And I think it's one that's probably another big takeaway though too is that that existential vacuum that you talk you know you go through it every five six years whatever it is.

>> It's a signal.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Uh, I know when you're going through it, it feels really shitty.

>> It feels like everything's over >> and it's it's supposed to feel shitty.

>> Yeah.

>> It's supposed to motivate you to go do something. Yeah. And that I think treat

something. Yeah. And that I think treat it like that. Not as in, oh god, I failed. Oh god, I [ __ ] this all up.

failed. Oh god, I [ __ ] this all up.

>> It's it's weird cuz it's like when you're in it, it feels like everything's over, >> but it's um, you know, as Frankle said, it's it is it's actually a signal of a new beginning. It means it means that a

new beginning. It means it means that a new self needs to be built and constructed from the ashes. Don't waste

that opportunity.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> All right, everybody. Thank you for listening. As always, you made it to the

listening. As always, you made it to the end of the show, which is not a small feat with this podcast.

>> We appreciate [clears throat] you sticking with us. Please, please,

please, if you get a lot out of this show, leave us a review and follow us whatever platform you listen to us on.

It it is it helps us with the algorithm.

It helps us helps us get out to more people. Uh, if you have a question or

people. Uh, if you have a question or comment on the show, you can send it to marksolvepodcast.com.

marksolvepodcast.com.

As always, the free PDF guide is available at solvepodcast.com/purpose.

And this is a very special episode because we are launching the purpose app. You can go to purpose.app/solved.

app. You can go to purpose.app/solved.

You can and if you sign up for an annual subscription, you will get a free purpose course. And anything else? Am I

purpose course. And anything else? Am I

forgetting anything else? I feel like I'm I always feel like I'm forgetting something. Drew,

something. Drew, >> we probably No, I don't think you did.

>> Okay. Thank you for listening, everybody.