Fitness Expert: This Simple Workout Burns More Fat Than Running

What exercise can you do in 20 years?

This probably the one you should be doing now.

>> Michael Easter is a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, and [music] a worldrenowned writer.

>> Michael's distilled down one of the most impressive arguments for incorporating our ancient biological needs into our modern lifestyle. What is rucking?

modern lifestyle. What is rucking?

Rucking mixes endurance and strength [music] in one. The greatest human rucker is the greatest animal rucker in the entire world. And that's because humans are unique and that we evolved to

carry weight for distance. This is the thing that I can finally do that gets me outdoors, that makes me feel good, that has helped me lose weight, that has improved my fitness, [music] and that's

awesome. Rucking will burn more calories

awesome. Rucking will burn more calories per mile than running. We've kind of missed the boat on this thing that we're really good at, and it has a ton of benefits. Maybe try putting it back in

benefits. Maybe try putting it back in and see [music] what happens.

Good to have you here, Michael. Thanks

for coming back. Likewise, man.

>> Excited to be back.

>> Our last episode was very popular. I

have every expectation that this will uh be equally uh that the audience will be equally enthusiastic about this one.

Lots to cover today. We're going to talk about your new book, Walk with Weight.

We're going to be very rucking focused, but I want to start this conversation in a very particular place. I want to show you a clip from a podcast I did with

your fellow Las Vegas loanite.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh his name is Alex Hold. You might have heard of him.

>> I asked him a question and >> he gave a very interesting response.

>> Have you seen this this uh enthusiasm around rocking that sort of has suddenly appeared? You must think like, well, I'm

appeared? You must think like, well, I'm built for that. I could do I could go like all day with that.

>> Well, yeah, I can. But I'm also like that's so I just think it's stupid. Like

if you don't have to carry weight, don't carry weight. You know,

carry weight. You know, >> that's psycho.

>> Do you know this guy, Michael Easter?

>> So, >> he lives in Vegas. He's the big ruck guy.

>> I just got his contact info. Um, I met a mutual friend of his who was like, "You guys should connect cuz you're both in Vegas." Yeah. I think I'm totally into

Vegas." Yeah. I think I'm totally into most of what he writes, but I'm like, "Wing? I don't really get it."

"Wing? I don't really get it."

>> Awesome. What say you, my friend?

>> So, Alex Hunold is the greatest rock climber of all time in the human world.

But if you expand that out to all different animals, he's not good.

There's plenty of other primates that would just kick that guy's ass going up.

>> Spicy tank.

>> Yeah. Just kick his ass. But with

rocking, the greatest human rucker is the greatest animal rucker in the entire world. And that's because humans are

world. And that's because humans are unique in that we evolved to carry weight for distance. So there's no other mammal that can pick up a load and carry it a significantly far distance. So that

act, this act of carrying weight, it really does make us unique among all other species. So I would turn that back

other species. So I would turn that back to him and say, well, if you look at the grand scheme of time and space, humans have been carrying weight to survive and do it better than they ever have

climbing up rocks.

>> Before we close the chapter on Alex, uh, did you guys ever connect?

>> We did not connect. We texted um, we've texted a little bit, but we've never managed to connect. Well, both of us probably travel until now. I'll have to text him and say this came up.

[laughter] >> This has to happen. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to make sure that you guys that you guys connect.

>> I'll make him a deal.

>> Yeah. He's uh

>> I'll climb a rock if he carries a weight for the sake of carrying a weight.

[laughter] >> Yeah. Let's get you two guys together

>> Yeah. Let's get you two guys together and you can you can uh sort of cross-pollinate your passions.

>> I love it. Yeah. He seems awesome. He's

really >> He's about to scale the Taipei 101 Tower live. He's they're going to live stream

live. He's they're going to live stream it on Netflix at the end of the month. I

think January 29th.

>> That's wild. which is nuts. Uh so I think he's pretty focused on that right now. So might have to wait until

now. So might have to wait until >> Yeah.

>> after he completes that.

>> Till after that.

>> On the topic of rucking before we get really specific about that. Essentially

your thesis is that walking with weight is the most fundamental and underutilized human exercise providing a missing link to lasting physical and

mental wellness. And if there's a

mental wellness. And if there's a correlary to that, it's that this is one behavior or activity that can help the human animal attune their lives to the

ancient rhythms that uh you know over over time have kind of shaped humanity.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that a fair >> Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.

Like I said u moments ago, humans evolve to pick up weight and move it for distance. So once we we evolved from

distance. So once we we evolved from primates came [clears throat] out of the trees um there was actually what led to the fact that humans can walk on 2 feet in the first place is there was all this

climate change happening in the jungle like 6 million years ago and the primates that could go longer distances uh were able to find more food and survive cuz it was like pushing out fruit. So fruit became harder to find.

fruit. So fruit became harder to find.

And so slowly but surely, natural selection basically favored these primates that could walk on two feet because it was a lot more efficient. And

then once we got up onto two feet, all of a sudden we have these free hands and all of a sudden we can start carrying stuff. And humanity really exploded

stuff. And humanity really exploded after that cuz we could take tools into the unknown. We could use our hands to

the unknown. We could use our hands to manipulate things, create tools, all these different things. So, it's really kind of the foundation when you look at like again what are humans physically

good at and unique at? It's covering

long distances on two feet often while carrying weight. And I think one of the

carrying weight. And I think one of the big points of this book is that when you look at fitness today, plenty of people run. Plenty of people go to the gym and lift weights. We have

cycling. We have all these things. Um,

but not many people carry weight as a form of fitness and physical activity.

[clears throat] And so my case is all those other things are great. I'm not

saying trying to say that rocking is the only thing that a person should do, but I am saying, hey, we've kind of missed the boat on this thing that we're really good at and it has a ton of benefits which we can get into. And so I think maybe try putting it back in and see

what happens.

>> Mhm. The evolutionary aspect of this is super interesting. Um, for many years

super interesting. Um, for many years probably, uh, you know, with the publication of Born to Run, it entered the mainstream consciousness. this idea

that we were born to run. Um, and that tracks back to persistent hunting and you know, all of these things that you're referencing. You're not

you're referencing. You're not completely rewriting that. You're you're

but you are kind of revisiting it to supplement it with the this thing that got missed, which is yes, we're born to run, but we're even better at covering

great distances with loadbearing weight.

and and that is really essentially you know what advanced uh humanity from the caves into building civilizations and this gets missed in the whole conversation around kind of holistic

well-being.

>> Yeah.

>> As a practice that is fundamental to you know kind of our DNA.

>> So my aha moment for this is um I'm familiar with the bornto run paper which was in nature I think in 2004. It's by

this uh anthropologist Dan Lieberman.

Then the Born to Run book comes out and it sort of makes this argument that humans evolve for long-distance running.

And the reason um that we did is we would use long-distance running to hunt.

So in the heat in Africa, we would run down animals until they basically uh fell over from heat exhaustion and then we would spear them, right? And this

would happen over like 7, 15, 20 miles.

So, what makes humans uh unique is that we can cover those long distances, but really effectively in the heat >> because we have this sort of built-in air conditioning system with our sweat.

We can basically just tolerate heat more than other animals. So, we chase these things down until they gas out because of heat. Spear them. Great. That's how

of heat. Spear them. Great. That's how

we would hunt an animal. But then what happens once you actually hunt the animal? You got to carry it back to

animal? You got to carry it back to camp.

>> Yeah. It's sort of like the next day, you know, [clears throat] dot dot dot that that got missed in that in that synopsis.

>> Exactly. So, I was out hunting um in the Arctic. This was for my book, The

Arctic. This was for my book, The Comfort Crisis. Um we were up there for

Comfort Crisis. Um we were up there for like a month. So, we end up hunting this caribou and we have to pack it back to camp and

it's like, you know, these things are huge. So, my pack has

huge. So, my pack has probably 20 pounds of caribou >> in this thing >> and we have to hike it back to our camp across the tundra. It's about 5 miles.

The tundra is, by the way, like the worst thing you could ever walk on. It's

like beach sand basically. It's uphill.

One of the hardest things physically I've ever done. But as I'm doing that, I'm thinking about that idea in the Born to Run paper like, "Yeah, humans evolved to run so we could hunt." And then yeah,

but then we also have to do this carrying thing.

>> Bring it back to the village.

>> Yeah, you got to bring it back to the village. And so I start kind of

village. And so I start kind of thinking, oh, that's kind of interesting. I wonder what other animals

interesting. I wonder what other animals can carry. Well, there's ants, but they

can carry. Well, there's ants, but they don't go that far. They're also not mammals. Well, there's kangaroos, but

mammals. Well, there's kangaroos, but it's only when they're with their young and their pouches. Well, there's horses, mules, but wait a minute, they can't actually carry anything for distance unless we put the weight on them,

>> right? And I just kind of ran out of

>> right? And I just kind of ran out of runway effectively. I was like, "Wow,

runway effectively. I was like, "Wow, that's actually maybe we're unique because we can carry weight for distance." So then I got home and

distance." So then I got home and background is I'm a journalist. So I

start reading papers, talking to researchers and just sort of became this rabbit hole of walking with weight that I went down.

>> And you ended up going to visit Daniel Lieberman to discuss this very thing.

>> Yeah. Visited him at Harvard. Um and he is the guy who really found the whole born to run thesis.

And when I brought up the carrying thing, he was like, "Yeah, that's we're we're unique for that as well." And he, you know, he pointed out for all of

time, humans were carrying often. This

could be our kids because we had to carry them around, right? Humans take a long time to develop compared to other animals. Um, anytime you wanted water,

animals. Um, anytime you wanted water, like today, you just flick on the faucet and water comes out. It's like great.

But in the past you would have had to walk to the water source and then you have to carry that all the way back to your village. So we are constantly

your village. So we are constantly caring and that really shaped us. And

when you look at what it does to the human body, I think there's a lot of uh benefits that are unique to caring that you don't necessarily get from running

or lifting weights alone. Before we go further, let's define our terms a little bit. Like what is rucking? What does

bit. Like what is rucking? What does

that mean?

>> So rocking I would say is uh walking with weight in a backpack or a weight vest. Now I have started to use more the

vest. Now I have started to use more the term walking with weight and I'll tell you why that is is because the term rucking came out of the military. So

back about 400 years ago um German hunters were calling the packs that they would hunt with uh rucks sacks.

So that term sort of held for backpacks that would be used for let's say rougher pastimes, your hunting, uh, warfare, whatever it is. And the military adopted

the term to be the a rucks sack was what you kept your, you know, gear in if you're a military member. And marching

with your weighted rucks sack was the key form of training. It always has been for militaries throughout time is just marching with your gear on. Um, so they started to call it rucking. Um, the term

sort of took off for the act. But when I started to use the term around say my mom or my wife >> moms. Yeah.

>> They Google rucking and what do they get? They get these soldiers with these

get? They get these soldiers with these like >> 15 pound back special operator in these vests.

>> Yeah. And so I was like, okay, well that's a little bit of a turnoff because the term rocking has taken on a really military bent, I would say. And so I've started to shift into walking with

weight to make it a little more approachable and not as scary.

>> The added irony being that uh walking with weight is something that was pioneered by the mothers. It's the

mothers that are carrying the children and you know carrying the water on their heads back from the well and all of this. I think there you know a lot of

this. I think there you know a lot of walking with weight. there's a lot of uh gratitude and thanks that have to be given to you know the the women and the mothers for this practice or you know

the fact that it has become part of our humanity I think >> totally I mean backpacks or carrying packs they were invented by women for

carrying babies so before that invention moms are carrying babies around all the time in their arms and so you only have one free hand the whole time so once um

and this happened a very long time ago Once women created carrying slings and packs for babies, all of a sudden you have the baby close to you, so it's

safe, but now you have two free hands.

And so that really expanded the productivity of the tribe because now you have someone who can gather food as they're also tending to a child. And

humanity kind of exploded from there.

And then of course the next logical step is well, if we can carry a kid in these things, what else could we carry in these things? And then you start putting

these things? And then you start putting food in them. Then you then the hunters of the tribe go, "Well, we could carry some meat in these. We could carry other tools." And just sort of took off from

tools." And just sort of took off from there. From a health perspective, give

there. From a health perspective, give me the reasons why uh rucking is is something you're you're you're so

bullish on compared to hiking, jogging, or running. To answer Alex's question,

or running. To answer Alex's question, like why not just run?

So when it comes to why not just run, I'll make two key points. Uh the first would be injuries.

So the data on running injuries is all over the place. There's one famous study that found that uh 20 to I believe it's

79% of runners get injured in a year.

That's really high. And I think anyone who's listening to this that has ever run, I'm sure you've been injured by running, right? Plenty of people have

running, right? Plenty of people have bad news for running. But when you look at uh walking with a weighted pack or a weight vest, injury rate is way lower.

It's basically a little bit higher than walking. And walking's injury rate is

walking. And walking's injury rate is like 1%.

That said, of course, if you use way too much weight, then the injury rate goes up. So, in the book, I advocate for

up. So, in the book, I advocate for using weights that are never more than about 30% of your body weight. Like, I

use 20% of my body weight, not significant weights. And then the second

significant weights. And then the second point as it relates to running that I would make is that rucking mixes endurance and strength in one. So,

you're getting endurance because you're covering ground, but you're also getting a strength effect because you have weight on your body and you have to carry that weight. So, you get a more muscular effect as you're getting your

cardio. You're sort of combining those

cardio. You're sort of combining those two things into one. So, if you're pressed for time, to me, it's like, all right, this is a pretty good option.

>> And I'll also add, I'm not saying people shouldn't run, people shouldn't lift, people shouldn't do whatever. My greater

argument is that walking with weight is incredibly effective and useful for people. And so, how can we weave it into

people. And so, how can we weave it into all the other things you're doing? I

think I heard you say that when you're running, you're exerting uh 12 times your body weight in force with every with every time you you land,

right? And it's 3x when you're walking.

right? And it's 3x when you're walking.

When you're rucking, obviously it's going to depend upon how much weight you put in your rucks sack, your backpack, or what's on your vest. Like in the in between, you have running on one end of

the spectrum, you have walking on the other, you know, rucking is somewhere in the middle. From kind of a strength and

the middle. From kind of a strength and calorie burn perspective, uh what are the what are the differences there?

>> Yeah, so generally per if you think about it per mile, that's a good way to sort of measure this. Um,

rucking will burn more calories per mile than running.

So, the rate is anywhere from 20 to you can go all the way up to like 200% more just depending on what the load and terrain is. But generally, you will burn

terrain is. But generally, you will burn uh more calories per mile compared to running. And then lifting. People

running. And then lifting. People

generally overestimate how many calories lifting actually burns because you're going, you know, if you do three sets of 10 reps and you do eight different exercises, >> how much time are you actually

exercising? You're like 20 second set,

exercising? You're like 20 second set, I'm going to rest for 2 minutes, another 20 second. Like, you're not really

20 second. Like, you're not really burning that many calories, >> right? But you're assuming you're going

>> right? But you're assuming you're going to uh you know kind of like at least 85% of your capacity, you are you know kind of stimulating muscle growth as a result

of that. It's just a different sort of

of that. It's just a different sort of thing.

>> Yeah. I think the point of uh lifting is more for strength and muscle rather than calorie burn. But I just like to point

calorie burn. But I just like to point that out because some people will >> like, oh, I got a killer calorie burning weightlifting workout in today and it's like you maybe burn like 150 200

calories. Like don't eat that back.

calories. Like don't eat that back.

A big piece of this and and maybe the most underappreciated aspect of it is the fact that it it's it's putting you out in nature in a dynamic environment.

And there's not only health benefits to this, uh, you know, physical benefits to this, but also, uh, cognitive, like brain health benefits to being out on a

dynamic landscape where you're being stimulated in a way that you're just not when you're lifting weights in a gym or you're running on a treadmill.

>> Absolutely. I'll give props to a researcher. He's at USC now. His name's

researcher. He's at USC now. His name's

David Reichlin. Awesome dude.

He's basically looked at um how your mind I'm simplifying this but how your mind works when you're out in the an environment that you have to

navigate effectively. Right? So if

navigate effectively. Right? So if

you're outside and you're having to figure out where you're going, you're taxing your spatial navigation. You're

having to take in all these things happening around you. Um, and if you're on a trail, it just ups the ante even more because now you're going, "All right, how's my foot placement with

every step?" Right? Is there a rock here

every step?" Right? Is there a rock here or whatever it might be? And so that um sort of mental work that happens when you're out in an open environment having to run, especially if it's somewhere

new. I'll put a point in there saying

new. I'll put a point in there saying new environments are better. That

navigation is really important for uh brain health. So humans in addition to

brain health. So humans in addition to walking with weight, we also evolve to navigate. We're navigating all the time.

navigate. We're navigating all the time.

That doesn't happen as much today for a few reasons. Uh one, we kind of do the

few reasons. Uh one, we kind of do the same thing every day, so we're just familiar with everything. Two, when we do go to a new place, like I got to this uh lovely new studio, we just pop it in Google Maps. Don't have to figure it

Google Maps. Don't have to figure it out. You just follow the blue dot

out. You just follow the blue dot >> and we lose something because that's like a very specific uh part of our brain that needs to be worked. And

there's evidence from there was a study I think it was conducted in the UK. I'm

going to forget the specifics because I'm I write down all the specifics in the book and then they just go out. But

um it looked at about 400 different jobs and it looked at their risk of um Alzheimer's and dementia. And the jobs with the lowest rates of Alzheimer's and

dementia were cab drivers and ambulance drivers. And they think the reason for

drivers. And they think the reason for that is that these people are constantly having to navigate all these new environments. So they're working this

environments. So they're working this very specific part of their brain that evolved for navigation that most jobs are not working.

>> That's fascinating.

>> Yeah. So I think there is a case like to me the takeaway for me practically is if you're going to go exercise outside whether it be on your bike, whether

you're rocking, whether you're running.

Sometimes you should go into new environments where you have to figure things out.

>> Like I'm just going to run out on this trail. I've never been there before. I'm

trail. I've never been there before. I'm

going to try and find my way. I'm going

to do this loop. And guess what? I'm

probably going to get lost for a second.

But that's the entire point because I'm going to have to figure out, okay, well, how do I get back to where I started?

But you can also, if you want to be even lazier about it, even just driving, don't use Google Maps all the time.

Like, you go, "Okay, I need to go to this restaurant uh in Las Vegas. I live

in Las Vegas. I know it's in Chinatown.

Okay, I can kind of get I know how to get to Chinatown pretty much. And then

I'm going to have to pick up all these cues along the way rather than just offloading >> this part of my brain to Google Maps.

>> Mhm.

>> And I had to do this, I'll say. And we

>> Yeah, this is like a It's like, how dare you? [laughter] You know, these

you? [laughter] You know, these beautiful navigations in our cars now, you know.

>> I know. I know. And I had to I'll tell you, man, for another book I'm working on, I did this really long through hike um through southern Utah. And it's not a trail, it's a route. So, you have some general directions of where to go, but

you got to figure stuff out. You're just

out in the open desert going through canyons, across mountains, >> and the navigation element,

that mental component of that. And we're

hiking 25 miles average a day with weight on our backs. That was almost as hard as the physical stuff.

>> It just adds this extra layer of complexity, of challenge. I would end the days just physically fried, mentally fried. But it was very satisfying

fried. But it was very satisfying because it's just not a part of our brains we work anymore. And there's

something really there's something really satisfying about it because you have like a clear mission. I need to get here and I'm going to use my brain to figure that out.

>> There's a sport called orientering that's all about this, right? It's not a rucking sport, but you never hear about people who do this sport. Maybe it's

poised for a for a comeback now. Maybe

they all got lost.

>> Yeah, maybe they did. I mean, ultra running, you know, there's c there's certain ultra like the Barkclays marathon has, you know, an aspect of that in it where, you know, orienteering

becomes a big piece. But, um, I guess the ultra running world has sort of enveloped that that sport on some level.

But there was a pure sport called orientering where it's like you you have a little compass and a map and you got to figure out how to get from where you are to the other place.

>> Yeah, I think people still do it.

There's still like orientering >> competitions and organizations. I should

I should look into that.

>> Yeah, this could be your next thing.

>> You and me, we're going to go out in the woods with a map and a compass and figure it out.

>> The other stat that jumped out at me on this nature aspect um of of rucking or just the the process of navigating the

outdoors is that when you're when you're on trails as opposed to roads, you're burning 28% more calories.

>> That was from true. So that it depends, right? So that was like an average. I

right? So that was like an average. I

think that was from a University of Michigan study. It of course depends on

Michigan study. It of course depends on the trail. So if you're on like a really

the trail. So if you're on like a really flat, you know, perfect like that's just nice and sandy, not like that bad, might be lower than 28%.

>> But if you get on something that is has a lot of rocks, a lot of challenges, then it might be higher than that. And

that's simply because you're having to put in more effort per step, right? the

ground is a little shakier, more ups, more downs, more times where you have to sort of side step around things. All all

that >> I'd be curious to know uh how that breaks down between the the the physical exertion aspect of it and just the the

brain power required to do that navigation. I my instinct would be that

navigation. I my instinct would be that it's much more about the brain power piece than it is about the physical aspect of that navigation.

>> I don't think that study delineated between the two, but I will say that tracks with me that just having to think about what you're doing. It just makes it so much

>> yeah harder.

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I mean this overlaps and and dovtales into uh you know what you've written about in the past and the comfort crisis and um scarcity brain. We're so

acclimated in our in our modern world that we compartmentalize exercise as this other thing that we do, you know, either before or after, you know, we're living our life and we do it in these

contained environments with fluorescent lights, with machines, you know, and in front of televisions and the like. Not

only does that kind of rob us of of of the joy of those human experiences, but it's also um interfering with maybe some

of the most powerful benefits um that we get from these activities when we're doing them in, you know, unbridled nature.

>> I think so because the gym environments and the treadmill, you're controlling for all these variables, right, that get reinserted when you're outside. So, we talked about one, the

outside. So, we talked about one, the navigation, um, but two, you're exposing yourself to nature, and that comes with a lot of

psychological benefits. Um, there's a

psychological benefits. Um, there's a variety of reasons for that, but the research consistently shows that going out into nature improves uh, your

happiness, decreases stress levels, does some good things um to your immune system. Like, all these good things

system. Like, all these good things happen when you're out in nature. Two,

you're also having to deal with the elements. Like now we live at 72 degrees

elements. Like now we live at 72 degrees and I think there is a case for getting out and exposing yourself to different temperature swings, right? Sometimes you

want to be a little too hot, sometimes you want to be a little too cold cuz it's like a stimulus that your body has to to figure out. And for me, a lot of it is mindset, too, especially if you're

out um on a trail or something. The

wilderness in nature to me has always been the greatest teacher because it forces you into positions where things are never going to be perfect and you really have to do sort of figure things

out along the way and just make it work.

And that to me kind of becomes a lesson that I can take back into my normal life and go, "All right, well, I was on that cliff in southern Utah that I had to go

down the canyon and it was a huge pain in the ass and it was 100 degrees out and I did that I can probably handle this next Zoom meeting that I'm dreading. I'll be fine.

We'll survive.

>> Well, the goal is resilience, right?

Ultimately, you're building resilience with every one of these experiences that you have. And what's interesting about

you have. And what's interesting about that is is how the resilience that we're

really uh after is sort of uh orthogonal to all of these life hack optimization things that we see these days that

people are you know very into like how do you think about the distinction or the the contrast between like life optimization, health optimization, fitness optimization

and the true resilience that you know can't be rushed and has to be earned you know in the elements. Big picture. To

me, resilience is about can I accomplish this task or figure things out when I have fewer resources

and more is stacked against me. Where it

feels like when you look at fitness optimization, I can't go on a run unless I have my Garmin because then I won't know exactly what my pace and my heart rate and my XYZ is. I can't start my day

unless I do my 19step morning routine. I

can't. There's a We're inserting a lot of these practices >> that people sometimes go off the rails if they can't have things perfect. And it

gives you this illusion of control in a way that you're improving things. Um,

but I don't think it always measurably does. And I think if you can strip away

does. And I think if you can strip away all that and just be a person that can attempt to accomplish things when you have fewer resources, when the odds are stacked against you, you're going to go

into that abyss and you're going to trust yourself. I'm going to figure that

trust yourself. I'm going to figure that out where you're probably going to learn something down there. [clears throat]

>> And I think a lot of it, a lot of the optimization stuff, I mean, I think it can be good because, you know, there's different types of people. Sometimes

like you get someone who's new to exercise, they want to improve their health. like, yeah, give them an aura

health. like, yeah, give them an aura ring so they know how many steps they're taking. That's great because that

taking. That's great because that >> having that measurement shows you kind of where you're at, but I think some of these things can tip into like this illusion of progress and control that

maybe isn't really founded in reality.

Yeah, it it's not uh a strict binary.

You know, I think they have their place, but the the point of them is to develop a more intuitive uh you know, integrated

kind of connection with yourself. And if

you're outsourcing everything to these other things, you're missing that opportunity. Like I I just remember in

opportunity. Like I I just remember in my early swimming days before heart rate monitors and Garmins and you know before there was an internet and all of that like after a set you know take a heart rate or

whatever and you start to get to know like oh this is when I feel this way my heart rate's probably this you know you're making that kind of mental you

know that mind body connection until you've done it for a zillion hours and then you know on a repeat of hundreds I could tell you without looking at a pace clock like what my split was or what my

time was because you you just you know yourself that well. Um and I think these tools are, you know, they're just fancy versions of stopwatches and and putting your finger on your neck to figure out

your heart rate, but you should use them so that you are, you know, developing that connection with yourself. But if

you're missing that part, then you become reliant upon them. You're

outsourcing everything and that's not the point, right? like that's moving you away from the greater goal. But the

person who doesn't need them or maybe use them and kind of knows all that stuff and doesn't need you know then they can go out in the world and they they know like oh I feel this way so I know that this is where you know my

exertion level you know at this phase means this and I know that that will mean I'll need to eat this and have this much sleep etc. So you become a self-contained you know organism.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think you made a great point that there's kind of like this balance where they can be a good on-ramp to developing that awareness, but once you've developed it, it's like

>> you don't really necessarily need it and the the danger becomes um getting fixated on how the numbers rise and fall each day. Yeah.

>> You know, I think a lot of >> then they become self-predictive.

>> Yeah. And a lot of the I mean, a lot of the metrics in fitness, I mean, they're wrong. They're some degree of wrong.

wrong. They're some degree of wrong.

depends on what the number you're looking at on your fitness tracker is a lot >> I play around with a lot of them. Uh I

think that you know like they can create a baseline so if they're wrong they'll be consistently wrong and you'll just know the point is to look for variations but you know I have one device that I

use that tells me my biological age is like 32 and I have one that tells me I'm 60 you know so [laughter] >> you know what I mean so yeah don't don't you know don't overinvest too much in in

in those things but I I do think they're helpful but and they can be good accountability partners uh and you know you there There is value in understanding that you know you can't

improve something that you're not measuring but it's your relationship to the measurement I suppose which brings up a broader conversation around like goal setting and you know we're in the

new year new year's resolutions like these are analog versions of the same thing right like how do you think about setting goals and intentions and visioning like we're in the new year do

you have a practice around that or what does that look like for I think I saw a lot of stuff online about how people shouldn't set New Year's goals this year. That was like a

wave. And I'm like, "No, that's the

wave. And I'm like, "No, that's the American tradition. Everyone just set a

American tradition. Everyone just set a New Year's goal." Yeah, most people aren't going to meet it, but like, who cares? At least it gives you hope.

cares? At least it gives you hope.

>> There's a sense of hope and you start a practice and some subset of the population will continue that on and they will change. Um, so I think that New Year's resolutions, having these big goals at the beginning of the year, I

think it's great because you probably learn something even if you only do it for a week.

>> Do you do this yourself?

>> Well, I will say that uh my New Year's resolution is to finish this other book I'm working on right now, which is a >> You and me both, brother. I I got one I'm That's my focus as well.

>> Yeah. Now, the good thing is that we are contractually obligated to our [laughter] New Year's resolution. we

have to >> it's been made for us.

>> Yeah. And if we decide to bail, we got to write a check and hand it back to the uh publisher. So that that would be

uh publisher. So that that would be mine. I think for me like having some

mine. I think for me like having some in the sort of health wellness space having some big thing I do each year can be kind of guiding.

>> Yeah. Like a big outdoor task. So I've

got to kind of stay ready for that.

>> What is What is that for you this year or do you keep that quiet? I don't know what it'll be this year. It'll probably

be in the fall. I mean, last spring I did that hike I mentioned. That was that was a long one. It was like 45 days.

Granted, it was for a book. Um,

[clears throat] >> so we'll see what it is. But it also kind of focuses my training to be thinking more about what's going to what's going to actually work outdoors.

And so, for example, in the Walk with Weight book, I talk about like if you're just thinking purely in terms of health, longevity performance

like how should you be thinking about training? And to me, being prepared for

training? And to me, being prepared for outdoor stuff is like the ultimate path to that because most times in the outdoors, especially if you're out there for a long amount of time, you're having to carry weight, right? You probably got

a backpack full of gear or something.

So, you have to have enough muscle to be able to carry that. At the same time, you're also covering a lot of ground.

So, you can't be overly muscular because then you're just carrying dead weight.

So, you kind of find this like sweet spot in body size. You're training your endurance, you're training your strength. You're also having to think

strength. You're also having to think about, okay, how do I resist injuries so that I'm going to have to bake in what are exercises that are going to actually

translate to getting my body across a super long trail, down a canyon, back up it, and not roll my ankle and not blow out my knee and not hurt my and all

these other possible horrors that could happen along the trail. And so that really, I think, sort of guides my training and has been useful. And I

think when you look at the data around, you know, body size, strength, endurance, it kind of hits the sweet spot for all the things in the sense that it gives you enough for everything,

right? So a good example would be like

right? So a good example would be like strength and muscle. Right? Now, there's

kind of a message, you need to have as much muscle as possible because that'll help you live longer. It's like, no, not really. You need to be strong enough and

really. You need to be strong enough and have enough muscle because at a certain point just packing on muscle for the sake of it, your body's not having to carry around all this stuff it doesn't really need and it's still taxing your

system. So to me it's about like finding

system. So to me it's about like finding the sweet spot and the sweet spot I think can be found by mimicking what humans have always done which is move across outdoor landscapes and do hard things.

>> There's a lot packed into what you just shared. Essentially,

shared. Essentially, you want to be perpetually adventure ready.

>> And in order to do that, you need strength, cardiovascular fitness, and the the the aspirant body type is what you call

supermedium, right? And that is a way of

supermedium, right? And that is a way of distinguishing between kind of aesthetic fitness versus truly functional fitness.

So, explain in a little bit more depth this idea of super medium.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I call this super medium on my substack. We got a nice crew who all chases super medium fitness, but it's basically the idea of and like I

just said, you want enough endurance, but you also don't want to tip so far into endurance that you're shedding all this muscle. And when you have to

this muscle. And when you have to actually throw on a pack, >> you don't want to look like a 205 marathoner.

>> Right. Exactly. Because when you hand the 205 marathon or the 50 lb pack, >> well, now he's in trouble, right? At the

same time, you don't want to be adding on so much muscle that now all of a sudden you're a two days and five minute marath.

Yeah. It's trying to find that sweet spot between those two.

>> And the best way to achieve that balance in addition to rocking would be what? I

think I think rocking is a great on-ramp to that because again, you're having to work your muscle. So, your body's going to go, "Okay, well, I should probably keep this stuff around because I'm

having to carry heavy things." Running

is good. Any form of cardio. I mean, I'm kind of ambiguous with cardio. I'm just

like, you know, do what you like. I

count rucking as a form of cardio. Um,

and then weightlifting, I think, enough that you're maintaining strength and building it. Usually like

two three days a week is usually fine for most people I would say.

>> When you're rucking, what is your average heart rate?

>> I don't track.

>> Like are you you don't track any of this stuff? Do you have a sense of of like

stuff? Do you have a sense of of like whether you're in a like are you in your zone too?

>> For me, it would it obviously is landscape dependent, right? If you're

going up a hill, it's going to be higher. But I would say if I'm carrying

higher. But I would say if I'm carrying say 35 pounds around my neighborhood with my dogs, I'm probably low end of zone 2 because I take a lot of phone calls and I can have a phone

call fine. Now, if I hit a hill at the

call fine. Now, if I hit a hill at the same time, I'm going to be like I might get a little bit breathy.

>> Yeah. If you're if you're if the terrain is dynamic and you have enough weight, then you're going to have like a lot of fluctuation in there.

>> Yeah. Yeah. This sort of leads us into um a discussion around the the health span and and longevity aspects of of rucking that that you talk about in your

book. And just on the heels of what you

book. And just on the heels of what you just shared about being super medium, you don't want to you don't want too much muscle. You need a certain amount

much muscle. You need a certain amount of muscle. You you want to you want a

of muscle. You you want to you want a certain level of mass, right? Especially

as you age and it's harder to put muscle on your body. Are you saying something different or >> I would say you want So it's kind of like what are we measuring, right? I

mean, if we're just measuring the muscle in itself, it's like, okay, but what's the overall end goal here? To me, it's like it's what it's to be able to live how you want to live and go out and do interesting things.

So, I think a lot of the data would suggest like strength is actually what we care about, right? I mean like at a certain point you could argue all right well if you have more muscle that way if you start to waste away there's more of

you to start wasting so you're going to be in a better spot it gets down these rabbit holes but I think when you look at like the longest lived people they're not big people right they tend to be small

>> so I think if you're just using your body using your strength not having so much muscle that all of a sudden you're not going to go out for a run because well that really sucks because it pounds

my knees because I have all this extra bulk on me. um everything has a cost, right? So to me, I think the answer is

right? So to me, I think the answer is again, I'm going to repeat myself, but being at a size where you can do endurance work and not suffer, you're not going to be the best. You're not

going to be the 205 marathoner. Doing

enough strength work that you can do the tasks of everyday life and more. Um but

not having so much of either that now you're sacrificing one for the other.

>> Mhm. the ultimate hybrid athlete. Like a

true hybrid athlete.

>> Yeah. People get really interested in like all these different like V2 tests and what was this and that and that. And

to me it's like the ultimate longevity test is can you just go hike up that mountain? Like if I told you right now,

mountain? Like if I told you right now, can you go hike your ass up that mountain? If I gave you a pack, that's

mountain? If I gave you a pack, that's way better because one, okay, well that tells me your endurance is pretty good.

Well, you have this pack. Tells me

you're probably pretty strong. Your

lower body's strong. Also, you had to navigate and figure things out. That

tells me something's working up here and between your skull, >> and you've exposed yourself to all these great sites, great views, great sounds.

Like, a lot of good things are happening. And I think that sometimes we

happening. And I think that sometimes we can get so down the rabbit hole of like >> this marker, that marker, this test, this whatever. It's like, no, just go

this whatever. It's like, no, just go out anding do something real.

>> And if you can do it, well, that tells me you're probably in a pretty good spot. There's a lot of wackiness in the

spot. There's a lot of wackiness in the health span extension uh world at the moment. I'm sure you've seen plenty of

moment. I'm sure you've seen plenty of it.

>> There's so much people can measure.

There's just so much and I think it becomes overwhelming at a certain point and really it's all just like kind of a marker for like what okay what are we measuring for?

Usually it's like well it tells me your endurance is good. It's like okay well couldn't like a run up a hill do that too? Well that seems a little bit easier

too? Well that seems a little bit easier to me. you know, it's just it we we get

to me. you know, it's just it we we get a little bit it just gets really complicated to me. So, I think one of my big messages is like taking which I do in my Substack is like how do you take

all this stuff and make it translatable and more actionable and approachable.

>> Mhm. Because if you did everything that, you know, the sort of rabbit hole Instagram says, you'd be taking 50 tests and you'd have a, you know, $20,000 bill

for something that a hike up a mountain could have told you for free.

>> Sure. I mean, this is this is sort of a a test case for the scarcity loop, is it not? Like, we'd much rather like uh, you

not? Like, we'd much rather like uh, you know, kind of focus on the the latest supplement or some new study that came out about a margin case. like we love

these these 1% sort of things that are out there when in truth what's really moving the needle is like hey maybe like carry around something heavy for a while you know and it's like yeah maybe no I I

want like look at this over here the shiny new thing that's going to like make all my dreams come true >> yeah I think that having a I wrote about this in scarcity brain too is I think

that having a number gives people certainty and that's relaxing If I see that V2 number go from whatever

40 to 50, I've made it. I'm definitely

improving.

>> Mhm.

>> But the V2 is just a proxy for all these other things that there are many different ways you can me measure them, right? It's like, why do we care about

right? It's like, why do we care about V2 in the first place? It's like, well, I want to live uh long. Well, why do you want to live long? Well, cuz I want to do I want to have these different experiences and blah blah blah. It's

like, well, why don't you just go out and do the experiences? because it

sounds like to me you're saying you need a certain V2 to have these experiences.

So, if you just go do them now, well, tells me you've got your V2. You're good

to go.

>> From a uh Healthspan perspective, um it's this twoin one uh activity.

You're getting strength and you're getting cardio. I guess there's sort of

getting cardio. I guess there's sort of an optimization argument to be made for that, right? Like you're get you're

that, right? Like you're get you're you're you're getting double your bang for the buck. Um, but you're also working on your bone density without, you know, kind of the jarring aspects of

of running, you know, cycling that kind of overlooks the bone density thing because you you do need some kind of like impact to stimulate that.

>> What else uh do we know or not yet know about the kind of lifespan possibly lifespan extending aspects of

this activity? I think one thing I

this activity? I think one thing I didn't touch on is that it seems to be good for fat loss, maybe uniquely good.

And that [clears throat] probably goes back to the fact that as you're carrying weight, you're having to burn energy, right?

Like endurance exercises is going to burn a lot of calories. Um, but because you have that weight on your back, it's almost like your body has to hang on to the muscle in order to carry it. So

there are some small studies. I would

say these are small studies, but there was one um that took these Alaskan backcountry hunters and it tested their body fat and a bunch

of different health markers um before they went out for a hunt. They're out in the mountains, I think, for 10 days.

And when you're on a backcountry hunt, you're doing a lot of you're carrying weight, your gear in your backpack, you're doing up and down mountains all day across different terrain.

And they all lost weight. they lost I can't remember the exact number like 10 pounds let's say you would think that when people lose weight some of that's going to come from fat some of that's

going to come from muscle like in most cases when a person loses weight some will come from fat some will come from muscle but when these guys got back all the weight they lost was from fat they

were able to hang on to muscle muscle slightly increased not uh significantly but just enough >> so I think there is something almost um not to give you sort of magic but I do

think there's And that's that's pretty unique to this form of activity.

>> Yeah, very unique. Yeah. Um

and I'll say I've experienced that myself like when I've done long backcountry trips where I'm having to have a heavy pack the whole time. I'll

come back and I'll be anywhere from 10 to 15 pounds lighter. This is like, you know, over the course of a month. Um but

I don't think I've lost much muscle. and

I come back and I look like I could go, you know, weigh in for a UFC fight. So,

I'm just like ripped. And so, I do think that there's a strong case um that it could be uniquely good for fat loss and that's a good thing.

>> People love to hear that.

>> Yeah. Lose the fat. When I when back when I was in editor at Men's Health, it was like, can we get a fat loss headline on on that magazine? I don't love this.

Can let's just sprinkle sprinkle some fat loss.

>> Always get engagement no matter what.

sprinkle some fat loss on there, >> especially in January, but uh uh any time of the year, I suppose. The other

thing I didn't expect uh was the impact on infant development when an infant is being carried by an adult.

>> Explain that.

>> Yeah. So,

when you are carrying a infant, a lot of really good things happen. Um, one is brain development because the infants say on your shoulder or

whatever it is. So, they're looking out and seeing the world almost as you are.

So, if I'm carrying a baby and we're talking, baby is picking up what is he doing? How is his face working? So,

doing? How is his face working? So,

there's a big like social component where they're seeing how you're interacting with other people as you carry them. Um there's also physical

carry them. Um there's also physical components where these um different reflexes get trained like the sort of neck correct reflex gets trained. You

know babies when their heads tip they'll pop it back up. Uh that gets trained.

>> Grip also tends to get trained. There's

this um gripping reflex where they they're clinging on to you. That's

getting trained. Um yeah, just all these different um good things are happening.

And I think the the point I make in the book is that, you know, for most of human history, we started by carrying our kids all the time, but then we put them in these

slings or packs or whatever it was, and they were there with us getting all these good things that being carried trains. And today, we've shifted that

trains. And today, we've shifted that away in a lot of cases, right? If you're

moving across uh if you're walking through your neighborhood with kids, probably going to be in the stroller. If

you're at the grocery store, it's in the basket and you put the basket in the shopping cart or whatever. I don't have children, so I don't know how what people are doing, but I think there is a case for

asking yourself, how can I carry my infant more often? Cuz it does seem to lead to some good developmental things.

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all. Uh, and to do that, Tyler, can you bring I've got uh a little showand tell here.

>> Um, I want to give people some actionable advice on on how to get started here.

>> Walking with weight can mean many things. Uh, it can mean a rucks sack,

things. Uh, it can mean a rucks sack, which is essentially a backpack that you can fill with books or rocks or plates or what have you.

>> I don't have one of those here, but I do have this, which is one of those like weight vests. This thing is incredibly

weight vests. This thing is incredibly heavy.

>> I bought this like a couple years ago.

>> I don't know. It's got these plates in it, >> you know, that like, you know, makes it like a kind of like a bulletproof vest.

you know, these like >> we can get into the differences about of between uh backpacks and weight vests at some point.

>> Yeah. With like a bunch of these things in there, right? And uh and obviously it distributes the weight between your chest and your back.

>> Mhm.

>> So, there's that. And then we have these, which you're seeing more and more of. This This is a uh like a lighter

of. This This is a uh like a lighter weight vest made by a company called.

I'm sure there's a bunch of different kinds of these.

>> Like that first one is like first responder uh or you know special operator gear, right? And this is like I feel like you

right? And this is like I feel like you wear this one if you're training for the combine or something you know >> like an NFL player would would train in something like this and it's more like

form fitting but also a vest and the weight is evenly distributed even though it's much less >> a rucks sack or a backpack. All the

weight is on the back.

>> The back. Yeah.

>> And my intuition was always that it would be healthier or better or easier on your body if the weight was evenly distributed.

>> Mhm.

>> But what I learned in reading your book is that that's actually not the case.

>> Yeah. I think for most people most of the time, if you had to choose one, I would steer people into a backpack. And there's a handful of

backpack. And there's a handful of reasons for that. I'm not saying weight vests are bad at all. They're great.

Like big message is that you carry weight is far more important than how. But if you had to pick just one, I would suggest um

backpack. Now with a weight vest with it

backpack. Now with a weight vest with it loaded in your front and your back in the research, having it loaded that way um leads to a

more normal walking gate. So your

walking mimics how you would walk unloaded. So that might lead you to

unloaded. So that might lead you to think, oh well then then that's better because when you have the weight on your back, what happens is you tend to tip slightly forward your torso to sort of

like balance the weight, if you will. Um

but in the real world, what happens is once you've walked for a longer time with the weight vest, especially if it's one the size of that and is heavy, um [clears throat] people tend to get

tired. And when you get tired with that

tired. And when you get tired with that weight around you, you almost have nothing to resist against. M. So you got nowhere to go. So I'll give you an

example to understand this. If we were to take a like 400 lb weight vest and I were to put that on you, you would just collapse, right? You'd probably just

collapse, right? You'd probably just fall. Now, if we took that same 100 400

fall. Now, if we took that same 100 400 lb and put it in a backpack, you could probably still stand. And why

is that? It's because you've got something to actually resist against.

You could lean forward. You could

balance it. So you can still keep moving. So once you get tired with a

moving. So once you get tired with a weight vest, especially if it's heavy, your posture starts to just go to absolute [ __ ] You've still got this weight pulling down on you and you start

to see problem. So um you've had Kelly and Julia Stret on the podcast. Yeah.

>> So they see a lot of issues with the military uh members they work with because they're wearing these really heavy body armor things. They're wearing

them, they're moving, they get tired, and they start to slump in this thing and they've got this weight just dragging them down. Um whereas in the backpack you can still move and have

something to resist against and keep your posture in a solid position. Good

example of this would be um throughhikers, right? Throughhikers

throughhikers, right? Throughhikers could choose to carry their gear any way they want. A gear company could surely

they want. A gear company could surely come up with some vest thing that carries your sleeping bag in your back, your food in your front, whatever it might be. But all of them are putting

might be. But all of them are putting their stuff in a backpack. And why is that? because it's way more efficient

that? because it's way more efficient the farther you go and the tire you get.

>> Interesting. So, if you're going long distances and you have a heavy pack and it's all on your back, you're going to start to lean forward, right? To balance

that out. Isn't that when you talk about maintaining a a healthy good posture?

Isn't that does does that become problematic or or are we built to handle that? Uh I would say for most weights we're built to handle that. So, of course, if you had

handle that. So, of course, if you had hundreds of pounds in the pack or say a 100 or more than a third of your body weight, whatever it is, I think you might start to see some issues. But what

happens is when you put the weight on your back, and this is this is really interesting. This is something I learned

interesting. This is something I learned reporting this book, and I was like, "Wow, that's interesting." Um, when you put weight on your back, it actually removes tension from the muscles on your

back. you actually work your back

back. you actually work your back muscles less with a reasonably weighted pack on your back than you do just standing. So you're like, "How the hell

standing. So you're like, "How the hell does that work?" That's because your abs start to engage much harder. So they

pick up the slack of those uh back muscles that have essentially been sort of shut off in a way. And so that's one reason I like the backpack is because it works your core harder. When you start

to tip, your core has to really engage.

Those back muscles sort of shut off.

your core picks up all that slack and you engage your core um pretty well. And

I think a lot of back issues are tied to a weak core. Um having a weak core can set you up for other injuries down the road. So I think it's just a nice little

road. So I think it's just a nice little way to improve your core strength without having to do boring planks and bird dogs and all those exercises that we do.

>> That leads me into my next question.

which is has to do with the safety of this for people who do have a history with back issues. And I say this is somebody who's, you know, still recovering from I had spinal fusion

surgery this past May. So I'm eight I'm 8 months post surgery and everything is going well, but you know those bone

those bones take 12 to 18 months to to fully um to to fully fuse. And so I'm I'm still, you know, not able to do anything that's going to compress my

spine. So this is probably something I

spine. So this is probably something I still have to defer for a little bit.

>> Um, but assuming you haven't had spinal fusion surgery and you just maybe you have like a a a mild or or relatively mild kind of chronic back

>> situation, um, can this be helpful? Is

this going to exacerbate that problem?

>> Well, I would tell everyone if you're going to try it, definitely ease in. And

I would say that whether or not you have a back issue, I think one problem is that this is more for men, I will say.

But they see rucking, they see military, they go, "All right, I'm throwing 70 lbs in this pack and I'm going to go for a walk." It's like, "Maybe let's lighten

walk." It's like, "Maybe let's lighten that up a little bit." Um, I tell people to start with, say, 10% of their body weight at first. For some people that might actually be a little too heavy,

and you'll know, and you can just back off. Um, for some people they might find

off. Um, for some people they might find it way too light and they'll need to add another 10 lbs. So starting light, I think is really important when you start. Um, the

reason is you just kind of want to ease into fitness things, right? It's like

you don't want to do too much too soon cuz that's when problems can happen. Not

to mention if you're the first time you ever go out with a weighted backpack, it feels like a death march. You're

probably not going to do it again. You

won't enjoy it. So by starting light, you can be like, "Okay, I've kind of worked my way into this. I know how it feels. It's not entirely comfortable,

feels. It's not entirely comfortable, but I can do it. And then you can add more weight from there. To answer your question about back pain and injuries, I think it's case specific and I would of

course defer to the doctor working with an individual, but I will say um Stu McIll, who's a back health expert up in Canada, one tool that he uses to rehab

the spines of some of his um injuries cases that he uh sees is he does have them rock with a weight in a backpack.

And that seems to help um some of those patients because it kind of gives your spine this light >> sort of like decompresses things, gives it some like light motion and that seems to lead good things to happen. But

again, ask your doctor.

>> The other uh argument in favor of the backpack versus the the vest uh has to do with breath, right? Like this is

something that that that Kelly and Juliet Starret talk a lot about. Like if

you first of all these vests, especially if there's a lot of weight on them, not great for women, right? Like this is this is not really going to work for them. Um but beyond that, it's

them. Um but beyond that, it's constricting the chest cavity in a way that is impeding uh the body's ability to, you know, breathe freely.

>> Yeah. I'm a founding member of a brand called Walkfully that's uh makes weight vest. They're coming out in end of

vest. They're coming out in end of February. Weight

February. Weight >> I went to the website. I didn't see any gear. It was about It was like a

gear. It was about It was like a program.

>> Yeah. The gear will be out in uh end of February. So then we'll start populating

February. So then we'll start populating it then. Um but we have a weight vest

it then. Um but we have a weight vest that avoids that issue. We've cut it so it's not going to be the weight isn't going to be on your chest hanging off there. So it's um that makes it good for

there. So it's um that makes it good for women. That also makes it better for

women. That also makes it better for anyone because weight isn't on your chest constricting your breathing. Cuz

when you do put in some of the more military style ones >> that you see with weight vests where you have a plate on the front, plate on the back. Yeah. Having a bunch of weight

back. Yeah. Having a bunch of weight right over your rib cage can make it harder to breathe. Not to mention it makes it so sweat can't do its job if you start to get hot cuz sweat needs

works by evaporative cooling, right? So

if you're not getting if you're like putting a bunch of steel over your sweat, it's not going to evaporate.

You're going to overheat. So, um, to that point, I think that's where a backpack is helpful because it keeps the weight off your chest or a weight vest where the weight isn't compressing your

chest more or less.

>> It also removes all barriers to entry. I

mean, pretty much everyone has a backpack, right? Like you can go buy

backpack, right? Like you can go buy your fancy, you know, rucks sack or whatever, but uh, you can just, you know, put a little bit of weight in your backpack and you're good to go. Yeah,

that's one of the things that I love about this is you don't need a membership. You don't

need to go buy a bunch of stuff. If you

have shoes that you can walk in and a backpack around the house and something that weighs something, you can start.

It's like that Wordssworth quote to begin.

You could literally pause this episode right now and probably find everything you need um to do it. And I just love that about it. um makes it just really

universal for everyone. Kids can do it.

My mom who's in her 70s, >> I mean, kids are already doing it.

They're, you know, they're wearing backpacks all all day with lots of books in Well, I don't know. They used to have books in them. Now it's all digital, I think.

>> Yeah.

>> Which brings me to this question around >> um the diff like walking with weight can mean many things, right? Like is there uh something specific about like we

talked about, you know, the what happens when you have it on your back, but you could be, you know, carrying bags in each arm, right? Is there is there value in that? Is that different? Is

that similar? Like is there an argument to do that instead? Like I'm also thinking about like you know Cam Haynes, he like when he has people on his podcast, he makes them like go up this mountain and carry like big rocks and

stuff like that. you know, they're they're carrying them in front of them.

They're not putting them on their back, >> right? Each will impact uh you

>> right? Each will impact uh you differently.

I think you should. So, I think throwing weight in a backpack and going for a walk or throwing on a weight vest, if you have one, is like kind of the foundation, but I do think that there is

a case to be made that if you're working out at a gym or you're outside or whatever, to find different ways to carry items. like when you shift the weight all the way to the front, it's

going to change the musculature that's worked. Um, if you're carrying things at

worked. Um, if you're carrying things at your side, you're taxing your grip, you're taxing your core strength.

There's a lot of different carrying exercises you do. I did a Substack article about this that was like 11 different ways to carry weight or something like that, and I kind of break down the benefits of each of them. But

to me, like kind of practical takeaway for people listening is, you know, go out and do your long walks with your pack or your weight vest or whatever you're doing. But if you're strength

you're doing. But if you're strength training in the gym, something like farmers carries or suitcase carries or if there's a sandbag in the gym and you just walk with it in front of you for a

few sets, you can go a little bit heavier. Um, I think that's really

heavier. Um, I think that's really beneficial, too. Does a lot of really

beneficial, too. Does a lot of really good things for the core. Um, and it's also really practical.

like you actually have to pick up stuff and carry it in real life, you know, whereas like a bar like a dumbbell curl skill.

>> Yeah. It's like dumbbell curl is like how many how often do you actually do that, you know? You don't

[clears throat] I'm not saying don't do it, but I'm just saying like this is actually things that will train you to deal with the stuff that life >> and they're they're compound movements.

>> Yeah. for the beginner. I'm assuming

that that most people who listen or or watch this podcast are are are, you know, at least interested in fitness probably have some, you know, modest

level of fitness at a at a base level, but like any new thing, less is more in the beginning. So, start with 10% of

the beginning. So, start with 10% of your body weight. Do your walk right.

There's no set distance here.

>> No.

>> Right. Do what feels manageable for you.

Um, is there um anything that people should be uh conscious of regarding their posture and how to hold themselves? I know that some

of these uh rucks sacks uh will have they'll have like chest straps and also maybe around the waist as well like that are intended to kind of stabilize this weight. Is

that important? How do you think about that?

>> Well, I think about it two ways. I mean,

I think one, if you can just start with the backpack you have at home, that's probably the right answer in the beginning. And then

if you enjoy it and you feel like you're benefiting from it, and I think you probably will, then upgrading to gear that has the hip belt and the little chest sternum strap can be useful. The

point of those is that it just distributes the load uh around your body more than just entirely on your shoulder. So the hip the hip belt puts

shoulder. So the hip the hip belt puts the load on your hips which are going to be more powerful. So if people have done long backpacking trips uh they know that like the hip belt is priceless.

>> Mhm.

>> Now if you're using a weight that isn't that significant like yeah it'll help a little bit but like your shoulders are going to be fine. I think when it comes to posture it's just like just try and walk as you normally would. You don't

want to be leaning way too far forward.

That uh suggests you have too much weight. Um, but it's also okay to be

weight. Um, but it's also okay to be tipping forward slightly because that's what your body naturally does when you put a load on [clears throat] the back.

>> What about footwear? Uh, it seems to me, or at least in in my limited experience of of of of doing this, that the more

weight that you that you put on, the more important the footwear becomes.

Because if you're wearing like a a high stack like running shoe, uh you're setting yourself up, especially if you're on a a dynamic trail for like rolling your ankle or, you know,

falling, right? You want a more kind of

falling, right? You want a more kind of like stable sold type of shoe for this.

Like is there something specific that that that you prefer or how do you think about this? First, I'll say it's

about this? First, I'll say it's probably a good idea to avoid really minimalist shoes when you are uh walking

with weight. There was a study, it was a

with weight. There was a study, it was a military study. Uh, one things that's

military study. Uh, one things that's interesting about all this uh research I did for this book is a lot of the research comes from the military because

it rucking is like the fundamental form of training for um soldiers. And so

they've been studying it for years and just now the sort of more mainstream um research institutions are catching up.

But there's a study that basically took um group of cadets. Half of them had effectively normal running shoes that are you know just sort of stable with a little bit of with some drop um with

some arch and the other half got minimalist running shoes. And they had them rock for a while. I can't remember the exact um timeline. It was either like, you know, 4 8 12 weeks, something

like that that and then they track their injury rates and uh the cadets that had the minimalist shoes had a significantly higher risk of injury. That's because

when you're putting weight on your back, your feet are having to do a lot more work. There's just more that needs to

work. There's just more that needs to happen. So, if you have a shoe that has

happen. So, if you have a shoe that has some drop, some support, that takes some of that stress off of your feet and can lower your injury risk. So, I tell

people like with shoes, it's kind of what do you think is comfortable? You

know, find something with some stability. Find something that feels

stability. Find something that feels comfortable. Um, to your point, maybe

comfortable. Um, to your point, maybe not something that's on like a super high platform if you're on a trail. Um,

but a lot of it honestly does just come down to comfort. But I would I would say like don't try this [ __ ] barefoot at first. [laughter]

first. [laughter] >> Yeah. But like I want to go in all

>> Yeah. But like I want to go in all extreme from the get-go. It's my wiring.

That's [snorts] why I'm injured. That's

why I got spinal fusion surgery.

[laughter] >> Here's what we'll do. I'll I'll create a plan to set you back another two years after this. And we'll just go. So we'll

after this. And we'll just go. So we'll

go [laughter] >> we'll go barefoot on >> right when I'm about to be able to like you know return to normaly like just cut me off at the knees. things were going

so well and then I did a podcast. You

know [laughter] >> it's crazy how the rise in popularity in this like it it it's all down to you. I

mean, you're the you're the mouthpiece on this whole thing. Like you've set in motion like this domino effect and um I think participation in Rucking is up

something like 40% in recent years and there's been a 150% surge in social media engagement around this which is nuts, right? Mhm.

nuts, right? Mhm.

>> And you're patient zero for this whole thing.

>> I would say it's weird. Um

because I think where it started and I'm not Yeah, I'm kind of one of those people. I'm just like I don't want to I

people. I'm just like I don't want to I definitely don't want to take credit because there's a lot, you know. I think

what happened is that there was already people who had rocking companies and things like that. Um it's kind of niche.

I wrote the comfort crisis. I had a chapter that was at the back of the book that was about wrecking and had information about wrecking. For whatever reason, it

about wrecking. For whatever reason, it resonated with people. The right people read it who had platforms like you and they had me on and that spread the word and they started doing it and it just

sort of had this like amplification effect.

The craziest thing is when I will be in my neighborhood in Las Vegas and I see someone walking around with like a weighted pack or a weight vest and I see them all the time

now. The other day I saw more people

now. The other day I saw more people doing that than I did running >> and you're like that's awesome.

>> Yeah. [clears throat]

Like real real world impact.

>> That's awesome because those people are doing because I don't maybe they weren't doing anything. I think one of the things that I have loved is that

I've got a lot of people say I don't like to run or I got injured running so I was doing this sort of like gym cardio. I hated that too. I was on the

cardio. I hated that too. I was on the elliptical but this is the thing that I can finally do that gets me outdoors that makes me feel good that has helped me lose weight that has improved my

fitness that has XYZ and that's awesome.

That's like the coolest thing ever. You

know, I get messages from people from women who have walking groups who are, you know, in their 70s and they're like, "Yeah, we started putting on these packs when we read the Comfort Crisis and we love it. You know, we're called

the Mother Ruckers or whatever and you're just like, "Hell yeah, >> the mother ruckers."

>> Yeah, it's it's cool. Yeah, it's cool.

But like like I said though, it doesn't it doesn't happen unless there's people like you as well who are willing to talk to me and then that gets amplified and

it goes, you know, it's like a big network effect really.

>> Yeah, it's cool. I mean, the older I get, my fitness goals are really around, you know, kind of just longevity and being like adventure ready. Like I I don't

need to go do any kind of crazy thing anymore. I I did that and I learned what

anymore. I I did that and I learned what I needed to learn. and I don't need to continue to tap that well. And in the wake of this surgery, it's just like I want to be sound in mind, body, spirit

as best as I can. And you know, I'm going to turn 60 in the fall. And you

know, I need to think about these things differently than than I ever have. I

can't expect to recover the way that I used to. uh and and uh you know I just

used to. uh and and uh you know I just want to be able to you know enjoy my life for as long as possible and you know experience the breadth of

experiences that are available to me and things like swimming and rucking that are you know gentler on the body but also producing the same you know these these fitness effects are you know

becoming increasingly more important to me.

>> Yeah. I think it's like what exercise can you do in 20 years is probably the one you should be doing now. Sure,

>> your intensity >> sure >> might be different, but I'm kind of wired the same way where I've you know gone out and done things that definitely took a toll and um now I'm kind of I

don't know if I'm totally done with that unfortunately. Um, but I am starting to

unfortunately. Um, but I am starting to think of like I notice myself making different decisions about how much weight am I going to take when I do this rock. Do I

really want to do that lifting exercise?

Like what is is there a safer alternative that I could do? Do I need to end this weight workout with some finisher that brings me to the cusp of

death? Like, no, I I'll probably be

death? Like, no, I I'll probably be okay. I'm thinking a little more long

okay. I'm thinking a little more long term. I do think one of the things I

term. I do think one of the things I love about um walking with weight is there's uh I think it's has a lot of social components

in the sense that I could go for a walk with my mom who's 70 and I could take say 35 lb 40 lb she

could take 10. we would both get a workout that's going to be challenging for us but not soul crushing and along the way we can have a conversation.

You know, I couldn't run with my mom. I

couldn't cycle with my mom. I could go just walk alone with my mom. That'd be

fine, but by adding the pack now, we're both getting a little more out of it. Um

>> I'm friends with Have you ever had John Deloney on the podcast?

>> Mm- >> Okay. He's got a great podcast. Um he's

>> Okay. He's got a great podcast. Um he's

with the Ramsay Network, a relationship guy. Uh doctor, I should call him Dr.

guy. Uh doctor, I should call him Dr. John Deloney. I'll give him his credit

John Deloney. I'll give him his credit for all those years he spent spent in school.

>> He's talked about on his podcast how he always felt like, I need to work out. I

need to work out. You know, he's got kind of that wiring that you and I do.

But then he would feel like he was giving up family time because he needed to work out. And so when he would get that family time, he'd be sitting in his head going, "Man, I've skipped that workout."

workout." >> Yeah.

>> Damn me. And he realized, you know what?

I can just throw on a pack and my wife and I can go out and go for a 2-hour walk. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting

walk. Now all of a sudden, I'm getting this time to connect with my wife, but I'm also getting in a workout cuz I've got this pack on. We can still have a conversation.

And it's allowed him to get in those workouts while still accomplishing these other social aspects. And I think that's awesome.

>> I've been thinking a lot about my relationship to my own creature comforts and also to uh my relationship

with being outside of my comfort zone.

And one of the things that I've recognized and acknowledged about [clears throat] myself is that many of these things that are considered

outside of my comfort zone have become my comfort zone. Like I would much rather go out and like train all day or

do a crazy race than do what is truly uncomfortable for me like stare into my wife's eyes and tell her all my fears or

you know like like go to go to a very intense you know kind of therapy retreat or or something like that. You know what I mean? Like your comfort zone morphs.

I mean? Like your comfort zone morphs.

And I think the problem with someone like myself, like an endurance, like oh, an ultra endurance athlete, is that like you go and you do these things and there's a lot of external validation

that comes with that and everybody's like, oh, he's so far outside of his comfort zone and it's like, yeah, but am I? You know what I mean? And then you

I? You know what I mean? And then you you end up staying there and then it becomes a a very comfortable zone for you. And I don't know that there's

you. And I don't know that there's enough conversation around that. You

know, it's you can get stuck and then it becomes an impediment to your growth potential as a human, you know, and in in all aspects of like mind, body,

spirit well-being. Do you think about

spirit well-being. Do you think about this like what is your perspective on that as somebody who like me is is prone to these extremes and likes to explore

them? I will say I think I've had the

them? I will say I think I've had the same experience that you do. Can hear a little bit of myself in there where it's like,

you want to go on a 45day hike? Yeah.

You know, it's Yeah, it's going to be really hard, but like I assume I can probably manage it. And I kind of love that zone where it's like, hey, do you

want to go on a meditation retreat for a day? And I'm like, that's going to I

day? And I'm like, that's going to I don't know about that. You know, we're talking >> like go to the dark cave retreat place.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> Exactly, >> right?

>> Or do you want to go have dinner with the neighbors? And I'm like, what the

the neighbors? And I'm like, what the hell am I going to say? You know, it's like that's I think you're totally on to something.

I wrote about um I had someone, one of my substack people, cuz I write about masogi a lot on that and they were like, "Well, I ran a marathon

and that was my misoge. finished it and then I did a 50 mileer, then I did a 100 mileer. Like, do I just keep going 200?

mileer. Like, do I just keep going 200?

I'm like, well, it sounds like you're good on the running. Sounds like you've kind of accomplished that. I think the question is, you know, what what is that

thing that you fear that's really out of your comfort zone?

Because it sounds like that the running thing has become the comfort zone for that person even though it is going to be uncomfortable to your point. And so,

how can you start to sort of dabble in that? And I struggle with that for sure,

that? And I struggle with that for sure, but I'm I'm trying to be better. I've

always been kind of like a social hermit. And I realized

hermit. And I realized >> I need to get out a little more. And so,

I've started to connect with people in Vegas and do things like that. And I

will say at first I was like, why am I doing this?

>> What am I going to talk about? But but

then it's like you give that enough time and you sit there and then all of a sudden the the magic starts to happen, you know?

But marinating in that and and really trying to get honest with yourself uh is to realize uh how you know astute we can be at like lying to ourselves. You know

what I mean? Like oh I'm doing [clears throat] this. You know what I mean?

>> When you get down to brass tax and you're and and you really do like a a fearless inventory on your motivations like are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

And I think, you know, the litmus test question is really like what are you avoiding? You know, cuz every choice you

avoiding? You know, cuz every choice you make is is on some level in an attempt to avoid something else, right? And so

getting clear on the things that you're most prone to avoid is a pretty good um bellweather for, you know, where your comforts are and where your discomforts are.

>> Yeah. I had a friend who's worked with a lot of people getting sober and he told me, "All these people I've helped, all of

them, it all just comes down to people don't want to be alone and they want to be loved. That's what it all comes down to."

And I feel like if you start to look at what you're avoiding there, for me at least, there's a lot of times an underlying fear about rejection,

that I'm going to be alone, >> that I'm not going to be loved. Testing

that when I can, when I'm brave enough, uh has been I think has been useful for me. doesn't always go perfectly, but but

me. doesn't always go perfectly, but but I think it's um you know and and like look sometimes you have to >> that is like an act of getting out of your comfort zone and forcing your hand

and not um like sometimes you just got to get into position where things might be scary to learn

this sort of greater truth. You know,

getting out of my physical comfort zone is so much easier than getting out of my emotional comfort zone. and you know I will go do all of those things because

on some level the kind of approval that is baked into that serves that need to feel loved. You know what I mean?

feel loved. You know what I mean?

Whereas if you allow yourself to be emotionally vulnerable in a in a risky situation, you're risking that that love, right? Like you you you're not

love, right? Like you you you're not sure how that's going to play out.

>> Yeah. And that's for me at least and I think [clears throat] probably for a lot of people like more uncomfortable than like setting the alarm a half an hour earlier or like making sure you go to

the gym, you know, these these sorts of things that we tend to associate as, you know, being outside your comfort zone type of behaviors and activities.

>> Yeah, I think so. And I think sometimes like when people begin to for lack of a better term clean up their life when things like exercise or whatever it

might be get adopted um it definitely helps but at a certain point if it sort of keeps getting pushed it can be its own sort of escape.

>> Sure. Sure. I feel like we, you know, you and I are are are blessed with tools that allow us to recognize that in ourselves because of because of recovery

because I'll use anything compulsively as a as a means to not feel or check out. You know, it can be anything

out. You know, it can be anything literally. This this entire podcast I've

literally. This this entire podcast I've I've made this joke many times before.

[laughter] It's like it's a ruse to avoid writing or having to do other things. You know what I mean? Um,

things. You know what I mean? Um,

so I guess the point I'm making is that comfort zones and discomfort come in in a complexity of of colors and shades, right? And and developing an astuteness

right? And and developing an astuteness and awareness of that, I think, can be a powerful tool to think about the decisions and the behaviors that you're engaging with in your life.

>> Yeah, I think you're spot on with that.

>> How's the recovery going?

>> It's good. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Got a good group of guys in Vegas.

Wonderful group.

I'm definitely the least tattooed among the group, but I feel I still feel home.

[laughter] Um yeah, it's good, man. It's you know, it's a everyday just peeling the onion, if you will. You have

ups and downs. Um I like to kind of compare it since I got sober to life kind of being like the stock market.

Some days it spikes, some days it goes down. But if you pull back in the long

down. But if you pull back in the long arc of time since I got sober, that line has just gone crazy up over time.

>> You don't have the the the spikes that you had when you were when you were out there, though. You know, it's like like

there, though. You know, it's like like it's much it's a much, you know, the the spectrum of ups and downs is much more compressed.

>> Yeah. Lows aren't as low >> for sure. Um, for me, I've had to kind of like relearn how to have fun and how to just like let off. Cuz for me,

drinking was like that's what made me feel comfortable and like I could connect with another person totally, you know? It's like if you just

put me in a smoky bar that plays George Jones and there's a bartender who's going to keep that place open all night.

That was like heaven to me. all was

right with the world.

>> And so when that goes away, then it's like, well, where the hell do I find that? Turns out it's a lot harder to

that? Turns out it's a lot harder to find that by doing all the internal work, but I do think it gets deeper and it's more interesting. That's for me.

What's been your experience?

>> Um, yeah, over the long stretch of time, it's just been, you know, an upward trajectory. Um, but it's not a linear

trajectory. Um, but it's not a linear thing, you know, at all. And uh I've gone through phases of of of kind of being detached from it and phases of

being really plugged in. Uh and I've had, you know, I've had I've had every variety of experience in it. And I

wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for anything, you know. Um it is like the most, you know, I I consider, you know, my sobriety the most important thing because without that, I don't have

anything. and and and I'll vacasillate

anything. and and and I'll vacasillate in how plugged in I am to the program and to the people. Um but always in my

mind, I never doubt that I need it or that I'm like over it or healed or cured. Uh and as simple and as annoying

cured. Uh and as simple and as annoying as so many of those slogans and the steps and the tools can be, there's a vastness to it. They have the capacity

to kind of handle everything. And um

there's still, you know, like there's it it's still the primary blueprint for for how I live.

>> Yeah.

>> Every day. And uh

>> same here.

>> And yeah, you know, I can be misanthropic, you know, like not as social as I as I was back then, but I'm okay with that, too. And my priorities in life are different.

>> Yeah.

>> So, >> yeah, that's that's about where I am.

>> What are like your daily non-negotiables?

Pretty simple. I write every day.

>> No matter what.

>> Yeah. No matter what. I I mean I'm luckily I'm a I have a weird sleep schedule where I'll fall asleep at 8 and wake up at like 3:30. And so I have >> I do that too. I did that today.

>> Did you? Awesome. [laughter]

>> Your publisher will love hearing that.

And so I have 4 hours of writing before things start to happen. And I love that time. just like me, the dog sleeping,

time. just like me, the dog sleeping, coffee, and I can just kind of like zone in and figure things out.

Like I wrote on Christmas morning, you know, I was up 3:30 a.m. on Christmas

morning and wife and family woke up at, you know, 7:30. I'd gotten in 4 hours of writing. Like, there's no better way to

writing. Like, there's no better way to spend a Christmas to me. Like, people

sell it's like work. It's like, no, that's not like, yes, that's how I make a living, but it's also how I live, you know? That's kind of one of the things

know? That's kind of one of the things that really makes me feel alive is like getting despite the hell of it, it's like you get the right sentence, you get the right thing to flow, you connect the thing, and it's just like bam, this is

awesome. Um, so that's I would say my

awesome. Um, so that's I would say my non-negotiable. And then I rest of that,

non-negotiable. And then I rest of that, I mean, I try and exercise every day. It

doesn't always happen. I'm pretty soft on myself now. I used to be like hard on myself if I missed a workout or I would like >> insert it at a time that was selfish.

You know, there's [ __ ] going on and I'm like, I got to go work out. My wife has to deal with the dog or who's going crazy or whatever it might be or some other thing. And I think I'm better at

other thing. And I think I'm better at realizing, you know what, you're going to survive if you don't do this bike workout for 45 minutes. You'll be fine.

>> What about you?

>> I mean, it's similar. I think that the maybe the difference for me is um I mean recovering from this surgery has has reframed my kind of obsessive

relationship with fitness because I've been forced to not do anything other than walk uh walk without weight uh I should say. Now I'm slowly emerging from

should say. Now I'm slowly emerging from that and I have this opportunity to redefine my relationship to fitness which is sort of exciting. I'm actually

gonna have um Kelly Starret come down and teach me all sorts of stuff that I need to learn, you know, and and I have this unique opportunity to kind of rebuild my body from the ground up,

>> which is exciting. Uh cuz it's like wiping the slate clean. Like I'm

completely starting over.

>> Like forget about everything I've done.

Like how do I stand properly? How do I walk? You know, like beginner's mind

walk? You know, like beginner's mind with all of that, which is exciting. But

one of the things that that challenges me is that I am I'm a morning person also and that's when I am my most creative but it's also the time that uh

I really want to work out you know [laughter] like once you know once I start writing or the workday starts it's it's it's much more difficult to make sure that I you know get that physical

exercise in. Um, so these two things

exercise in. Um, so these two things often are at loggerheads with each other, like should I work out, should I write, you know, and so I'm I'm I have I get decision fatigue around that. And

now I'm just solving it by saying, okay, I'm going to work out first, but I'm going to I I'm restricting the amount of time >> cuz left in my own devices, I'll just I'll go too long or whatever. Uh, and

that way I'm not exhausting myself before I have to sit down and write. And

I'm also not using up a ton of time. And

if I wake up at 3:30 in the morning, it's totally fine.

>> Yeah, I'm I have a book due in mid-March and so I'm in that phase where it's like everything has to be writing. Um I'll

always write in the morning, but I am thinking about starting to do some workouts in the morning once I get the book done. We'll see how that goes.

book done. We'll see how that goes.

>> Can you say anything about the book or is that under wraps? I listened to a podcast um from a wise author the other day and he said he was working

on a book and he didn't want to talk about it too much because the creativity goes somewhere. The muse

goes somewhere. The muse >> I think it's best to lock it down. Talk

about it when [laughter] it was done.

Oh, did I say that?

>> It was you. [gasps]

>> I will say I've I've shared what I'm working on with a few people but not publicly. And when I'm just asked by,

publicly. And when I'm just asked by, you know, a random person, it's like, "No, I don't." Cuz you you then it feels like you've done something and you haven't done it. Like, I'll talk about it when it's done.

>> Well, I do feel like sometimes you don't know what the book is until the book is like done and you've gone through it and you go, "Here's oh, here's what this for me anyways, here's what this book is

really about and here's how we need to get it more aligned with that." So, if I start talking, I mean, it's it's definitely focused on mindset in a way.

And I did this long hike to sort of tell that story. So I got the narrative down

that story. So I got the narrative down and all those pieces, but like kind of landing the plane on the core insights of the book is still in the process.

We're still in the air.

>> Yeah. You're prolific on Substack.

You've built a a tremendous community there. Like I think you have 100,000

there. Like I think you have 100,000 people more than 100,000 people there.

Um and you're publishing three times a week there.

>> Three times a week. Monday, Wednesday,

Friday. and it's an incredible resource for for anyone who is not familiar. Um

the the the page or the account, I don't know what you call it on Substack, it's called 2%. Um and everything you publish

called 2%. Um and everything you publish there is just, you know, it's just valuedriven, you know, it's not it's not chaff at all. Like it's really well

thought out.

>> It's a ton of work. Uh but I love it. I

think the reason I started it is because in the book world you put out a book people like it or they don't whatever and then 3 years later you have another book and you don't get like this real

time ability to write about things that are happening in the moment or things that are coming into your mind or even when you're writing a book you have all these ideas that you're like oh this is

actually really useful but for whatever reason it just doesn't work in the book so what do you what do you do with it?

Um, so I started the Substack a few years ago right after I'd finished Scarcity Brain and um, I love it. It's

great. It just gives me an outlet to cover things that I think are interesting and useful to people in the realm of fitness, mindset, general

health. Um, and the community is

health. Um, and the community is awesome. That's what's really cool about

awesome. That's what's really cool about it. So, we've got like a robust comment

it. So, we've got like a robust comment section. where like I know the people in

section. where like I know the people in it now.

>> Yeah.

>> You're like, "Oh, that's that's so [laughter] Oh, yeah. And it's great. And

I do put I mean I put a lot of work into it because Substack for people who aren't familiar.

>> Um it does allow you to put a payw wall up. And so I send out every Monday. That

up. And so I send out every Monday. That

one's always free. It always will be. Uh

Wednesday and Friday, you'll eventually hit a payw wall. And so for me, the question is always, would I pay for this article?

And if the answer is no, and I'm cheap, so there's a high bar, >> the answer [clears throat] is no, I got to go back to the drawing board and make sure that this is valuable. So yeah, I do I mean I'm still doing in journalist

mode, reading tons of studies, talking to different sources across the board, but I love it. It's it's awesome. I

wasn't sure if it was going to work out, but it's worked out roll.

>> I think it's working out pretty well.

It's good. I mean, you you've I mean, there can't be very many Substackers that are uh you know, are like doing doing better than you. I mean, you've you've really like you're hitting a home

run over there and you're just delivering incredible value.

>> I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad you like it.

>> As we kind of like wrap this up, uh I want to make sure that people understand that um Walk with Weight, you also you have like a lot of practical advice in there in terms of like gear and also

like training programs. like it it's it's part kind of manifesto but also kind of practical guide. So if people are curious or interested it you're

literally giving them everything they need to understand the value proposition as well as like the how-to aspect of it.

>> Yeah. I mean the book really did come out of the fact that I wrote that comfort uh chapter in the comfort crisis on rucking. Rucking sort of took off. I

on rucking. Rucking sort of took off. I

became sort of a go-to resource and I started getting all sorts of questions from people all over the world about it and I've just sort of taken the

questions I get most frequently um and answered those all. What weight should I start with? What if the weight's too

start with? What if the weight's too heavy? What sort of shoe should I mean

heavy? What sort of shoe should I mean just all this tactical stuff. But then

to your point, I sort of open with I like how you use the word manifesto. I

hadn't heard that one on that book and that's good. um a case for walking with

that's good. um a case for walking with weight and why it why it is unique to humans, what its benefits are and so yeah hopefully people find [clears throat] it useful.

>> There are uh like I don't they're not races but like organized rucks now like longist you can go to these places and you know >> do it as a group. I I would imagine

that's going to continue to grow.

>> Yeah, I've never done one. Um,

but I imagine they'll probably increase in popularity. I mean, for me though,

in popularity. I mean, for me though, the magic is like seeing the, you know, the lady in my neighborhood in the weight vest >> walking around. It's like, that's awesome.

>> All right. Well, any any final uh final thoughts uh for people to take home with them uh as they as they start to think about uh incorporating this into their life?

>> I do not, but I will say if you need me or have a question, I am on Substack.

People can DM me. You can write questions in the comments and I will do my absolute best to answer them. If it's

a rocking specific question, it's probably going to be answered in the book. Um, if it's a question about

book. Um, if it's a question about anything else, happy to happy to film it.

>> Awesome, man. Well, uh, thank you for appreciate it, man. Super fun to see you. And you know, once I have a sign

you. And you know, once I have a sign off from the dock, uh I'm going to root you out and uh force you to go out on some kind of situation with me somewhere.

>> I like a good situation, [laughter] especially with you. That'll be good.

Anyway, uh thanks, Michael. Appreciate

it. Cheers. [music]

>> Yeah. Thank you. Peace.