From Burnout to Thriving: My conversation with Dr Dani Mascaro on The Solo Journey Podcast, Ep. 6

Hello. Hi, Dis. Hello, D.

How are you? Hi. I'm great. Welcome.

Wow. I am so happy to have you here on the podcast. I've been wanting you as a

the podcast. I've been wanting you as a guest, I think, from the beginning of this podcast. Very kind. Yeah. You to

this podcast. Very kind. Yeah. You to

me, you are the perfect guest for what I'm doing here. This podcast is all about sharing stories of people, entrepreneurs, founders who are looking

for a way to thrive without sacrificing health, happiness. And I kind of feel

health, happiness. And I kind of feel that we already recorded like five or four or six episode of this podcast in our previous

calls, right? Yeah. I think we've

calls, right? Yeah. I think we've covered a lot of ground. We've had a lot of interesting deep conversations around how to build and create something new

without letting it consume all the other things that you've worked so hard to try and balance in your life. And absolutely, you know,

your life. And absolutely, you know, trying to trying to go with the flow of things the way they're guiding you a little bit more so you can enjoy the ride rather than trying to fight your way through it. I think a lot of people

tend to do that. So, I think yeah, we've had a lot of good conversations. So I'm

excited to hear what we have to talk about today. Yes. So for everybody is

about today. Yes. So for everybody is for everyone who's listening uh Zahir and I we met on LinkedIn. We just

connected and then me, my husband and Zer, we started having I want to say weekly weekly video calls where we

shared a lot of life experiences and business experiences and struggles and just things that we learned and it was

such a spontaneous organic I want to say connection. I think that a little seed

connection. I think that a little seed of this podcast was born during our conversations. Honestly, we shared so

conversations. Honestly, we shared so many things and so I don't want to spoil everything. I already know a little bit

everything. I already know a little bit of your story, but I would love for you to share a bit of your background, your story, and what you're doing at the

moment. Sure. And yeah, I think you

moment. Sure. And yeah, I think you know, we we met on something that most people don't think you can build a strong relationship over. And I think our relationship is one of those things

where you can meet people, share a certain say consciousness, a level of understanding, a level of wanting to be with the world. And you start to meet people and if you're open to it, you

start to build relationships no matter how, whether they're remote, in person, whatever, because you're open to connecting with people. that kind of operate at the same frequency as you.

And it's it's kind of interesting you know we we tend to put a lot of science behind these terms and we don't want anything to feel too um you know too arty too out there but I think you know

I come from an engineering background so a little bit of context I grew up in in Kenya was born and raised there. Um I

left when I was 19 to come to university but when I grew up there I grew up surrounded by books. So my parents owned a bookstore. I worked in the bookstore.

a bookstore. I worked in the bookstore.

Uh, a lot of small business kind of stuff that I'm kind of getting back into now. So, I'll kind of get to that. But I

now. So, I'll kind of get to that. But I

think, you know, those early years were spent reading, trying to learn things, and I was just surrounded by all this knowledge around me.

And it taught me because I was reading so many different genres, it kind of taught me how to relate to different people at different circumstances in their lives, different stations,

different points, and not sort of look to too much hierarchy around stuff. And

I think that makes you more open to connecting with people no matter who they are or where they're from because you're no longer bound by that kind of stuff. I think a lot of the experiences

stuff. I think a lot of the experiences that came from growing up like that, the range of people I met there, moving to Canada, going to engineering school at

uh at Queens, you know, like high-end program, but people from all walks of life, people who came from private school, people came public, people came from different uh geographies, demographics. So, you kind of meet all

demographics. So, you kind of meet all kinds of people through that. And then I went into I went into consulting. I

loved engineering. I really wanted to design Formula 1 cars, you know, story for another day. Like that was my hobby and uh I had to deal with that being being dashed very early on in my engineering career. Like there was no

engineering career. Like there was no way I was going to be designing Formula 1 cars. I had to kind of reset the set

1 cars. I had to kind of reset the set of dreams and expectations. But you know it like I think at some point there something had gotten seeded around hey look you've got to you got to learn to

adapt to stuff around you and you know you know I went left that I went into consulting and I you know sort of a different kind of thing. Business mixed

with a bit of engineering lots of late nights lots of hard work. It taught me how much I could really work. Like I

learned how much I could get through, what kind of stress, what kind of burnout and you know that the hours were mounting up. And at the same time, like

mounting up. And at the same time, like I was just kind of checking off these boxes, right? Like you know, get a job

boxes, right? Like you know, get a job highend kind of thing, start to make lots of money, you know, make up for the investment your parents have made in you. Like all these stories we got

you. Like all these stories we got stories, right? So I I kind of did all

stories, right? So I I kind of did all that and consulting was great. Went into

banking afterwards. Um and stuff.

started to unravel after that you know like I was it's like being operating at such a intense level on whatever machine or thing you use something that you know

quite well if you if you wanted to run for a long time you need to learn how to balance using it intensely giving it some rest nurturing it looking after it all that kind of stuff and I think we do that

intuitively with machines and things that we use we don't tend to understand that about ourselves our mind our bodies everything else and we sort of just go full tilt trying to achieve something

because we've got this goal in our minds that that we have to get to. And so I kind of went through that just because everyone else is doing it. Everyone else

is doing it. So it's really hard. You've

been told for so long this is what you need to do. It's very hard to try and balance it. People continue to balance

balance it. People continue to balance it, but you're like, "No, no, I'm different. I can do it differently. I

different. I can do it differently. I

don't need the balance that everyone else needs." And you know, it affects

else needs." And you know, it affects certain personalities more than others.

And that's kind of part of the whole let's say conditioning and programming that happens is you are sort of guided into being a certain personality type through a lot of your formative

education, your parents, your society upbringing. There's all these factors

upbringing. There's all these factors that kind of mold you into a certain type of personality. Doesn't mean you're fixed at that, but you tend to gravitate towards this personality a little bit

more than others. You know, for me, like I I really I was burning the candle not just at both ends, at 300 ends. Like I

was trying to do everything, right? Like

so business and social life and family and trying to raise a young family and renovate a house and everything. Trying

to be the youngest executive ever, like you know, all kinds of crazy things I had built into my head as I needed to do to be happy, to be successful, to be all these things. And then it all kind of

these things. And then it all kind of unraveled, right? like I I went through

unraveled, right? like I I went through a period like I was separated. My kids

were now living 5 hours away. I'd lost

my job. I'd made a whole bunch of mistakes. I'd broken a bunch of rules.

mistakes. I'd broken a bunch of rules.

You know, just wasn't a good time. And I

was still thinking I was trying to be happy and I was doing all these things and sort of my life just crumbled around me over a period of time and it really forced me to look hard at what I'd been

trying to build. And in there was like some help from a therapist and other people. But in there was something that

people. But in there was something that switched on, like a little light that switched on that said I had to look a little deeper, look inside a little deeper, look at me a little deeper,

understand what was going on better. I

had to go back to what I was like when I was a kid, you know, consuming all those books, doing all that kind of stuff. I

had to be like that kid again and go explore and figure out how this whole journey had happened where I'd gotten so high and gotten so low and chasing something that everybody else around me

seemed to be chasing too. So I was like there's something not quite right here.

And so the last 10 years I'd say have been a bit of a a journey around that.

And today, you know, going from consulting to banking to then trying to restart my life again and working with small startups, kind of trying to get

back in tune with what was fun for me, what was joyful for me, what I really enjoyed doing. And it's meant like whole

enjoyed doing. And it's meant like whole changes in life and income and and all that kind of stuff. like it's been it's been quite challenging to look at life

from the other end of where I was because I I reached a level of kind of financial and and material kind of stuff that most of us aspire to um and then it was all kind of gone really quickly and

you start to look at life through the other lens from another end you start to go I can't do all the things I used to do I've got to change some of these things and you start to live life differently and so today like you know I

think it's given me a chance to go into startups to to build my own company to continue the consulting and coaching work that I enjoy because sometimes it doesn't pay a lot of times it doesn't

pay because the work I'm doing is to share something that is so universal so important that I can't always charge for it but I do it because I know it's kind

of done through me I it just happens and I and I've got to do it this way and I try to build businesses around it so that I can support myself and do all those sorts of things but it takes a bunch of learning so it's been a really

interesting journey of kind of very structured life growing up. Exploration

in the beginning as a kid, the books, everything else around me, sports and games and stuff like that, but a very structured kind of educational life, very structured kind of life, engineering consulting banking and then sort of a big unraveling and a bit

of trying to find my way through all this stuff over the last few years and finding new friends and new relationships and new networks that sort of give you that opportunity to build a whole new view on life. And so it's a

whole new kind of a sector now.

Absolutely. You know, I find very fascinating and interesting the way you just told the story which was I was a kid and I was doing my thing, right?

When you're a kid, you tend to do what spontaneous then it comes the conditioning, right? And so you said I

conditioning, right? And so you said I was a kid. I was exploring doing my thing. Then then there was this

thing. Then then there was this conditioning which I thought it was leading me to find what I wanted but it

led me to burnout and now you found your way by listening to yourself again. So

by getting back in alignment with with who you are I strongly believe that there is no one size fits all right but

everyone needs to find their way. I find

very interesting the fact that instead of looking inside our tendency is to look outside and see okay they know how it is made how to do it and so I'm going

to try to follow them I'm going to try to do what they do and then it doesn't work for us and it's so beautiful that you your switch for you it was not to

change not to transform but kind of to get back in alignment with who you really

are. A person who finds his way by

are. A person who finds his way by exploring, not by listening to what's happening around. So this is it's very

happening around. So this is it's very beautiful. I like this a lot about your

beautiful. I like this a lot about your story. Thank you. That's very nice. It's

story. Thank you. That's very nice. It's

um you know, you mentioned something about the external kind of validation kind of piece. One of this, you know, one of the strange things about this kind of journey as you go through it is

it's it's full of paradoxes because in discovering the kind of source for your happiness or for who you are within, you'll have to have

a journey without externally facing in order to see that that's not where the truth lies and the truth lies somewhere else. But you have to do that part of

else. But you have to do that part of it. One of the things that we learn

it. One of the things that we learn early on is um you mentioned the kind of conditioning and stuff that we go through. One of the other things that we

through. One of the other things that we learn early on is to to compare, to compete, to try and win very early on.

And it's part of the early conditioning, early programming that goes in around survival of our species, survival of the fittest, how life has evolved. Um, not

that any there's anything wrong with describing it that way, but we can sometimes take the language from that and make that part of our cultural identity, cultural expectations, which

then filter down to a family, society or society, family, individual. who are

then now trying to compete on you know the strange thing now is like how people trying to compete on spirituality people trying to compete on oneness like how can you compete on something that has by

its core the lack of any kind of division right so it's like we have to pay attention to the fact that you're going to face these things and that you've

been taught to look at life as a competition as something to get somewhere And instead of that, to look at life as a series of explorations or

lessons or clues, I like to look at those clues. It's always fun for me. I

those clues. It's always fun for me. I

like the the clue idea as there's little things in your life that are just pointing you to the truth of your experience. For example, a dream. A

experience. For example, a dream. A

dream is a is a is, you know, we can look at so many different ways, right?

There's all kinds of books written about how to interpret dreams. There's all kinds of stuff about nightmares and bad dreams and the, you know, good and bad dreams and and lucid dreaming. And now

there's going to be all kinds of stuff around how to inject thoughts into your dreams and, you know, it's it's all that kind of stuff. But it's our tendency to get lost in the details of that kind of

stuff versus sit back and look at what the picture is showing you. The picture

is showing you that no matter what the kind of dream is, just look at the structure of a dream, how it can seem so completely real for the entire duration

of the dream that you're going through.

There are mountains and valleys. There

are spaceships and aliens. There are

monsters. Whatever your dream is about, when you're in it, it is inescapably real for you. And if you just look at that lesson or that clue on its own, it

just points you to something about your own reality daytoday, how much you take as so real for you because you're so in it. But if you could just step aside and

it. But if you could just step aside and look at it from a different perspective, as if you were awake from a dream, you'd realize it wasn't such a big deal. It

was just one way of looking at it. It

wasn't absolutely true. It was

relatively true. Yes. And to look at life and everything that's happening in your life, not one thing, every single moment as a

clue pointing you to something true about what's going on. Like everything

is a clue just pointed to something behind it. And I think this journey is

behind it. And I think this journey is part of that experience for everybody. I

think it's the beauty of something that is everybody's destiny, but the journey and the path is unique for everyone. And

it's a journey back to something. It's a

journey uh you know returning to a state where you understand what you are from a state of ignorance of what you are. And

you are what you are still. You haven't

changed. You are what you are. But

you've just gone from a state of not knowing or being ignorant of what you are and chasing everything outside. And

then you're you figure out what you are and you return back to that state of now kind of knowing not knowing what you are. You know enough now to not put a

are. You know enough now to not put a label on what you are. You know there can't be a label on any of this stuff but you kind of come back to feeling that hey look you now know and it's

okay. Do you think that when a person's

okay. Do you think that when a person's when a person burns out it has to do with the fact that we forget who we are? It is possible to

burn out while running your business, do your things, but from a place of being aligned with your real self.

That's a that's a really great question because in it I think it contains so many clues about how we think about that. So my answer is I

don't think it's possible to burn out if you are truly in accordance with your true nature. No matter what you're doing,

nature. No matter what you're doing, it's impossible to burn out. And then I want to try and answer the question about what I've used as definitions for those things. So that we can just make

those things. So that we can just make sure that we because people's perspectives on how aligned they are because now you're asking someone, you know, they feel very aligned with what

they're doing. Yes. But it's leading

they're doing. Yes. But it's leading them down a path of discovery of that that their path is not right for them, but they don't know it yet. And so you almost have to go through the burnout to

see it. And that's

see it. And that's living understanding your true self at that moment the best that you can. But

it's leading you down this path to discover that this is not good for you.

And it was all just meant to happen that way. I think as you go through this what

way. I think as you go through this what I've started to learn and this has been my experience based on the reading the learning the experiences I've gone through

is there's a softening and an understanding of what's unfolding and how it's unfolding in each moment needs to happen the way it's happening. You

start to forgive yourself and everyone around you for everything that's going on because you understand that that's what needs to happen right now. And when

you start to understand that the way you live is a is in a very soft way psychologically and I think this is where you want to start to tease out what we're talking about in terms of

alignment and doing nothing is is really taming the psychological beast that gets created through the conditioning and and everything else and bringing that into a

quiet mode so that it can support the work that has to be done physically around do everything else without trying to pull you off. It's

almost like having a rogue person charioteer on the on the chariot like trying to pull the horses a different way. And life needs to be unfolding the

way. And life needs to be unfolding the way it's unfolding. There's so many pieces to it. You know, the old adage of the butterfly can create a a tornado, a cycling, whatever it is, a hurricane somewhere else. It's like everything is

somewhere else. It's like everything is so interconnected. So when you're living

so interconnected. So when you're living in alignment with your true nature and purpose, you won't burn out psychologically.

doing that. But it may happen that as part of your journey, you have to go through something that feels like burnout. Yeah. Because it's there to

burnout. Yeah. Because it's there to show you that this door is not the door to go through and you need to find something else because you're fighting something that's part of it. So I think it can be a teaching as part of it. But

once you start on this path of living with that true purpose and the burnout stuff drops away. It's amazing how quickly you bounce back from burnout. I

remember going through it a couple times because I think it's been one of these features of my life. If I look back now in school at age 16, my first job at age

27, like I had these moments of like kind of just hit a wall because I was pushing so hard to try and make something fit. That that as soon as that

something fit. That that as soon as that thing got removed, I bounced back really fast. So it really is this burnout thing

fast. So it really is this burnout thing is almost like a psychological fuse, right? Think about it as that.

fuse, right? Think about it as that.

It's like a little trip thing that trips before you go way too far into stuff.

And if you pay attention, you start to go, okay, that's tripped. And what I didn't realize was I was like, okay, this tripped. I'm just going to do it

this tripped. I'm just going to do it here, but I'm going to try and do it the same in a different industry, but the same kind of effort. And it was like, nope, tripped again, right? And so it's like I didn't realize that that was what

was going on until a little later more recently to start to look at it and go, "Oh, it's cuz I'm trying to fight this stuff and I'm working really hard, but I don't need to do it that way. I've got

to go to where I'm being pulled into and there's lots of opportunities that I'm being pulled into. It's just that in the past I would have been very yes, no, yes, no, trying to judge all of them,

trying to now they sort of just seem to flow one after another in a very connected way. Sometimes, sometimes not.

connected way. Sometimes, sometimes not.

So, I work hard, but I don't feel burnt out. I don't feel the same mental and

out. I don't feel the same mental and physical kind of tiredness that used to come with it. Yes. There's a lot still feels like you're pretty physical working. Yes. Yes. That's what I was

working. Yes. Yes. That's what I was saying. And there's a lot to be said

saying. And there's a lot to be said about acceptance, right? There's a lot to be said. Well, acceptance is seen as surrendering to things. So, like, oh

yeah, I'm the pit.

Um, my personal experience is that every time I went pretty close to burnout and the one time that I actually burned out was because I was using so much

resisting. I was fighting everything so

resisting. I was fighting everything so so hardly that you know at a certain point burnout is not even it's not an enemy, right? It's not even an enemy.

enemy, right? It's not even an enemy.

It's a big signal. It like like you said it's in the world you just can't go on.

You don't if we didn't have burn out we would just die I imagine like we die. So

acceptance for me personally speaking it was it was a big lesson that I learned through burnout this to kind of support what you were saying about you have to

go through it sometimes it's a big teacher yeah it's part of the journey for that particular person that personality it's part of the lessons you

know I don't look back and regret now on those things because they're just things that happen and as they come up now they're just things that happen and It's the label we give them, you know, like

the the label that you give acceptance in your mind mentally when you hear acceptance and you go weakness, you know, like, you know, there's an automatic, you know, hit the wall, bad,

burnout, bad, you know, like we have good and bad labels for everything that we hear and we say to ourselves. It's

very subtle. Your attention has to become so refined, so acute to start to see how your thoughts stack up. and

create emotions and feelings in you that then create the next random things. You

start to see how you operate largely as a robot responding to signals in your environment and kicking off preconfigured routines that you've

learned over your childhood and everything else. watching your parents,

everything else. watching your parents, watching people around you, developing your own personality, becoming so caught up in developing your own personality.

You're this type of person, good, bad, whatever, but you've got this personality. Yes. And you carry a lot of

personality. Yes. And you carry a lot of that weight on you all the time as you go through your life because you're constantly filtering through that thing.

It's like a set of lenses. Like imagine

you're the optometrist and you put like 15 lenses on like any every every word you hear these lenses come in and they become the way in which you see that word and that person. So we carry a lot

of that stuff with us and it's a lot of extra weight that leads to this burnout.

The burnout is really in some ways your true self going whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. You're you've gone way too far.

whoa. You're you've gone way too far.

Love it. It's like your GPS when you've gone past the turn and it's trying to reroute you and they're going nuts trying to tell you, "No, no, no, you got to turn around. Don't take the next left." And it's just like just trying to

left." And it's just like just trying to get you back on track and go, "Look, just slow down and come back." And

burnout in a way is a bit of that to go, "Hey, look, we're just going to pull the the switch, hold the fuse, get you back on track, and then lead you this way now." And when you can look at it that

now." And when you can look at it that way, life starts to soften. all the

experiences often your need for things sort of drops away. Acceptance is a great word for it. It just as long as we didn't attach it with a label. Like if

you if you if you could attach the same label for achieving, acceptance, failing. That's

just words. Okay? Just words. They're

words that describe a certain thing that happened but with no label to it. You'll

suddenly realize that half 90% of the time you're spending is in a sort of quasi fake dialogue

about all the stuff you're hearing around you. It's like it's such an

around you. It's like it's such an intense amount of subconscious processing and stuff that's going on or almost conscious processing sometimes.

But that yeah, there's there's like tons of room here to drop the labels and start to look at your life and this opportunity that you have as an entrepreneur. Like you've got this itch

entrepreneur. Like you've got this itch to start a business that other people don't. You've got an itch to share an

don't. You've got an itch to share an idea that other people don't. You've got

this passion to do something. Maybe you

don't have all the skills, but you've got something here. And your kind of mission in a way is to allow that

spark to it's like a seed. Nurture it.

Let it turn into the big mighty tree, oak, whatever it's supposed to be. But

allow it to do that by not fighting it.

Let it lead you to the people, the kind of work, the skills. Do the stuff that's fun, like truly fun to do because you'll do more of it. The stuff that you do more of, you get better at. the stuff

you get better at, you win at. So, you

know, um, and you'll be able to help other people with it. So, do the stuff that you find fun. It's the easiest route to building a great skill. And

it's almost taught out of us the other way, right? The whole way through school

way, right? The whole way through school and everything else, we're taught to look at our weaknesses and then spend our time fixing our weaknesses. So, take

the thing I dislike doing and then spend more time and effort doing it. How far

do you think I'm going to get in terms of my mental state if I'm doing something I dislike for more time because I think I'm crappy I didn't need to get better at it. Like why? Yeah.

Yeah. And no one ever questions that early on. I didn't at least. I don't

early on. I didn't at least. I don't

know if anybody else did, but no one told me, "Hey, you should really question that." Yeah, you're right. I

question that." Yeah, you're right. I

love this. Uh I was I think it was one of the first or the second episode of the podcast. I was talking with this

the podcast. I was talking with this great guy. He's called Ryan Atkinson and

great guy. He's called Ryan Atkinson and he said something pretty similar. He

said the the solution to burnout is to stay as much as possible in your zone of genius. Right? I I am um a new new

genius. Right? I I am um a new new solopreneur. I'm scaling my business. I

solopreneur. I'm scaling my business. I

doing my stuff. Learn to do all the little different things that are needed.

And so you are accumulating skills over skills over skills over skills but they are not your first love, right? They're

not your passion. So for me example for me producing content writing content it's not my jam at all. I I can burn out

easily while doing it. But talking to people the way we're doing that I can do all day long. You can put me in front of someone at 9 in the morning. I would

stop talking at 11 at night if it's something that I'm really passionate about. So again, this is why Renzo keeps

about. So again, this is why Renzo keeps us apart because if you did that and I did that, we would talk for 24 hours nonstop. Can you imagine?

nonstop. Can you imagine?

I think so. Like, no, no, no, no. Just

an hour at a time, please. No more. But

I got to say that Renzo, my husband, he can do the same, too. We always say that if we had a camera in our house and people could see the way we spend our

days, uh, they would be pretty surprised because we live together. We've been

living together for almost 13 years now. And we talk a lot. We spend the

now. And we talk a lot. We spend the majority of our time sharing stuff. And

besides when we're working, I love that.

That's so cool. The time that we are not working, we're sharing stuff. Even while

watching TV shows, we're always commenting on those TV shows. So, yeah,

I think I love that. You're right. You

absolutely love that. And I think that's true. I gave him a little knock there,

true. I gave him a little knock there, but you're right. He does he does like to chat as well. But yeah, but you're right. It's a difference in skill sets.

right. It's a difference in skill sets.

You're absolutely right. You're building

different ones. Yes, you're right. Do

this message. I would love for this to go out in the world to everybody who's you know not just starting a business but just following their their passion

in life. Do more of what uh ignites your

in life. Do more of what uh ignites your soul. This is something I find

soul. This is something I find myself telling to 98% of the clients I work with for completely different reasons. Whether

I'm helping someone with depression, anxiety, trauma or productivity, whatever, there is always an imbalance between the things that you feel you

have to do and what you really love. And most

people tend to give priority to the things you have to do thinking that once I will be once I will finish this then I

will be happy. then I will do this.

Right? And so I'm always out there saying go on that trip, do more of the things that make you happy because there is a reason

if a strong a very strong part of you is telling you to do that stuff, right? We know a lot about the

stuff, right? We know a lot about the way we are made and about how we function, but we don't really, right? So

we don't really know why we have sometimes this desire to do something.

Maybe a desire to do some art or go outside on or adopt a dog or have a baby. We don't know. We only know that

baby. We don't know. We only know that we feel that and we get back to that kind of alignment. It's if you're listening to yourself to the part of

yourself that leaves right and if you censor that saying no first I have to do this then I will do that I think that

that's the moment where you go pretty pretty close to burnout a lot of things that you don't want to do and so little things of the things that you love the

things that make you happy.

Yeah. I I I think it's really like you said you said a number of profound things there Daniela around our understanding that clue has been there

for a while but we just don't want to chase it. We just get attracted by the

chase it. We just get attracted by the stuff here and the stuff here is because we have language and cultural history and conditioning that we've all learned

and this is kind of how it's unfolding.

It's a very like back to the paradox thing as you start to see through some of these things where burnout comes from etc. where we seem to be going off

trying to get to understand things or fix things in the environment with too heavy a hand instead of relaxing and allowing things to when you start to see that you start to realize that it

couldn't be any other way. But it's so frustrating to see it happening that way because for people it would be such a simple easy thing for them to just relax

and de-stress. And I remember hearing

and de-stress. And I remember hearing these words before and thinking that there can't be a way. But now, yeah, you can kind of see that way that we've been taught to focus on the weaknesses. We've

been taught to focus on the chores that anything just unquestioned, anything good worth having should have some pain associated, right?

Like like we believe this. Yes. Where on

earth did that quote come from that we all believe in solid faith and truth that it's the only way to be like it's absolute crap. But no one's willing to

absolute crap. But no one's willing to hold it up and say, "Do you do you actually exist?" or is this just some

actually exist?" or is this just some saying that sounds because it's got the contrast in it because everybody's repeated it a million times. Every

sports personality, everybody pinned up as a leader, everything they just regurgitate the same quote they've taken in unblinded. We just believe it. No pain.

unblinded. We just believe it. No pain.

It's absolutely not true. Yeah. It's

100% not true. It's not the only way.

It's just your perspective around it.

And if more people understood it, more people would be happy just doing what's they're doing, coming by the stuff that's coming their way. Because the

stuff that comes your way is there to help you and to support you. There's

nothing that's going on that isn't designed to wake you up or support you in what you're trying to do. Yes. It's

just these quotes and things we've learned in school and we've learned passed down from generation to generation. I'm not blaming a single

generation. I'm not blaming a single person. This is not anybody's fault.

person. This is not anybody's fault.

This is just the way the world works.

This is just the way consciousness unfolds and that's just a function of how it's going on. So that the people that hear

going on. So that the people that hear this are meant to hear this. And if this message finds its way inside them and switches something on or validates

something they've been feeling or encourages them to go explore, great. It

was meant for them. And for the people that listen to this and go, I can't believe I'm listening to this thing again or someone's saying the same stuff and I don't get it or this thing or that thing. Great. Go do the thing that's the

thing. Great. Go do the thing that's the diametric opposite of this that you want to do that brings you so much joy. And

when you start to call it like it's real joy, like when you start to realize that everything you do is service of trying to find a little bit of peace of mind, a

bit like your sleep. We're all hunting for this exquisite, blissful experience that's called deep sleep because we have it every

night. Another clue, like a dream, we

night. Another clue, like a dream, we have it every night. It's right there.

Yes. Blissful. We give ourselves completely to it. I don't know anybody who does a halfass job at deep sleep because there's nobody there to come back and say, "I did." Like, it's just gone. You're gone. And we're all chasing

gone. You're gone. And we're all chasing that happy moment. And that happy moment exists when you can get your mind out of the way judging what's going on in this moment. And that's all there is to it.

moment. And that's all there is to it.

And all these kind of encouragements to pursue what brings you joy and to do all these things. Push yourself. You know, like

things. Push yourself. You know, like some people take the path of really exerting themselves physically some huge challenge. And in all these

things is the same clue which is there's something observing and judging this experience going on. What is that? And

when that's quiet, it's happy.

And what is that? Just explore that part of it because it's the key to kind of your entire experience. something that looks at

experience. something that looks at what's going on in every moment and is filtering and judging and talking about it and commenting on it and everything else. Like what's that? Just look at

else. Like what's that? Just look at that. Because if that can be

that. Because if that can be quiet, then it's like deep sleep. You're

blissful and happy, but everything is going on around you. And it's it's accessible in those zones of genius.

It's accessible in those flow states.

It's accessible when we're doing things that we don't comment on or judge or that kind of stuff. And a bit like the burnout, the burnout comes from the incessant chatter that says, "I got to do this. I got to do that. That didn't

do this. I got to do that. That didn't

work. This has to happen." Like all that stuff that goes on that mounts. If that

could be quiet, you'd solve your burnout problem. You'd solve all these other

problem. You'd solve all these other things that happened there. Um, so I think there's a there's a connected thread through all the stuff that you mentioned, the stuff that we've talked about, the the podcast guests that

you've had, which is to look for this little thread that runs through all the experiences that you go through. There's

something observing and then commenting.

Yes. Um, and you can you can really dial in your attention and look at that. I

love the the thing you said about peace of mind. And another way to look at this

of mind. And another way to look at this is if we are looking for it so

much it means that somehow somewhere we knew it we had to have an experience of that because if you you

didn't you weren't looking for it. Um a

patient of mine she was telling me like I I I I don't have love. I need love. I

I feel that I don't have love. I never

had it. I I don't know how love feels.

And I just told her the fact that that you are looking for it. It means that somehow somewhere you experience it, you

felt it and if you got in touch with it once, you can get in touch with it again. Right? So with peace of mind,

again. Right? So with peace of mind, it's the same. There is a part of us that knows how peace of mind feels. And

you're right, we look for deep because it's when our mind quiets and we experience peace of

mind. But it sleep is just the closest

mind. But it sleep is just the closest thing to peace of mind. And for so many of us, our mind is so noisy. We get used

to it. We get used to the fact that

to it. We get used to the fact that there is always someone talking here in here. A mind that is noisy and thinks by

here. A mind that is noisy and thinks by itself chewing thoughts that is not that is not a natural experience. If I pay

attention the moment my mind goes by itself it's just repurposing old content with different words. things that my

parents said to me, things that I said to myself I think for you know whether it's peace of mind or love you know happiness success like take any one of these words

at some level I mean there's a dictionary definition around them but then there's the the kind of definition that we all have I think we all

share a common universal sense of what all of these words freedom peace of kind love unity happiness success whatever that mean. I think we all share

an inside feeling, something that we all know is the same feeling as everybody else. It's universal, but I know if we

else. It's universal, but I know if we tried to describe it, we'd end up with all kinds of definitions for it. Right.

So, that's our problem. Yeah. In that

you're talking about the experience of feeling that and the search and the switch that's gone on inside of you is to go and find that again because you felt it before. You know it exists. And

this journey outward and then back inward is this part of this whole journey to go and find it again. But

there's this small wrinkle. And the

wrinkle that happens is you learn a language and you learn words, you learn definitions. And something that's a

definitions. And something that's a feeling now gets filtered through a set of words and meanings. And your search becomes

manipulated, warped, distorted. I could

use those words, but also I could use shaped, guided, you know, adjusted and and look like you can just kind of see how just the labels that were going off in your

head as I said those words made one look like it was a bad thing that was twisted and shouldn't have happened and another makes it feel like this is the way it's meant to be. But it's just the words we're using. But if you're just going to

we're using. But if you're just going to look at it like those words and their meanings for you, how you've taken in your guidance, your understanding, who you look up to, the figures of influence

in your life before and now, those kind of shape your pursuit.

And this is the key, the secret to all of this stuff is that when you start to look at it, again, don't get lost in the details of the

pursuit. Realize that the pursuit is the

pursuit. Realize that the pursuit is the key. The pursuit is showing you that

key. The pursuit is showing you that you're going to chase something. You're

on a search. You're searching for something. You don't know what it is.

something. You don't know what it is.

You might ask a few people or come across something that says you're searching for something you already are.

And if you can be quiet enough with just that, you'll realize that you have to drop the pursuit. Not drop the work, not drop the physical effort. You're not

going to turn into a vegetable and sit at home. None of that's going to happen.

at home. None of that's going to happen.

But what you're going to do is drop this notion in your belief system, in your mind, in how you get up every day and how you show up every day in every moment. You're going to drop from it

moment. You're going to drop from it that you need to pursue something that you need to acquire a state. You are

already that. You are already the light that lights up your soul. You're already

a soul on fire. You've just got a whole bunch of things stacked on it that are blocking that fire, that light, that happiness, whatever it is that's there right now. And it's just not there for

right now. And it's just not there for you right now because other things are stacked on top of it, which are all the thoughts and beliefs that you need to do to get to that state. And if you just let go of those things and remove them,

you'll be there. And it happens all the time for you because in sleep, you don't have that stack. Not dream sleep and stuff like because dream is like a small stack. It's a

stack. It's a like a mishmash of things that are stacked together because the dream comes out sometimes a bit real looking or waking state looking sometimes not so

much right so the stack changes when you're in your zone of genius and doing your thing and in a flow state the stack disappears it's gone so it's there all

the time you have to remove the things that get in the way and the key to removing the things that get in the way is to

drop the pursuit of things that you want, like things you're trying to acquire and achieve, and just relax into the stuff that's already coming your

way. Whether it's coming slow or fast or

way. Whether it's coming slow or fast or whatever, you'll get it at the speed you're supposed to get it, but just slow into it. It's going like the things that

into it. It's going like the things that are going to happen are going to happen.

But this understanding kind of kind of pulls you into like start to really explore what you are and who you are on this in this life experience that you have. People can tell you different

have. People can tell you different things. You know, there's religions out

things. You know, there's religions out there and the the god we have now, which is money and and wealth and status and like we have all these kinds of gods.

We've made them all and we've decided to go down certain paths and as a society, as a world, we sort of buy a story and then go along with it. And it's just kind of the way the world works. But

there's nothing saying that you have to do that. You can look and see that every

do that. You can look and see that every time as I've gone through it like every time we get stuck on the detail there's a clue waiting in it that goes look back

at the thing and look step take a step back it's like a a language needs both the words and needs the grammar to work you need set of rules you need start

looking at the grammar stop worrying about all the details of the story and start looking at the grammar look at the way the rules work the rules that say when you go to sleep at night and you go into a dream and it looks completely

real like your waking state. How much of my waking state do I truly understand and know for true and how much of it is relative? How many other perspectives

relative? How many other perspectives could there be looking at the same thing that's happening? There's a really cool

that's happening? There's a really cool name someone um a friend of mine told me about it's called the Rashimon effect. R

A S O N effect. It's like this film technique that was developed in Japan where they took the same story and played it through different perspectives. Um, and it kind of shows

perspectives. Um, and it kind of shows you how one incident could be looked at from multiple different perspectives.

And there was no objective truth. There

was a relative truth. I think if you look at kind of life that way, burnout, entrepreneurship, anything you're doing, doesn't matter what walk of life. I

think this is why it's so important because it's universal. It's not that if you're this type of person, this will work. But if you're not, no, no, this is

work. But if you're not, no, no, this is for everybody. Every single thing you're

for everybody. Every single thing you're doing is kind of pointing you at a reality that's different than what you've been taught, what's been communicated, what

you've been led to believe, all that kind of stuff. I'm not even prescribing anything

stuff. I'm not even prescribing anything in that sense. It would just be have a look. I I took a look, you know, it it

look. I I took a look, you know, it it seemed daunting like why even bother?

Like if everybody's 99 people headed this way, why go that way? You know, I think for me the burnouts and the unhappiness that led from that resulted from them even though I was trying to

pursue happiness, right? It was like, why am I

happiness, right? It was like, why am I unhappy after pursuing the things that I thought would make me happy? I've been

doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing. Like, how? And to hit that wall

doing. Like, how? And to hit that wall again and again and disappoint people and upset people and and do it to myself and go like, I'm not having fun at life.

Like, you you realize when you hit a point where you call a suicide line, right? and you need to talk to someone

right? and you need to talk to someone because you're like, I should just end this. This is just painful for everybody

this. This is just painful for everybody around me and for me. Like, why don't I just call it quits? Like, who wants to do another 40, 50 years Yeah. of this

kind of stuff? And I think that moment for me sort of got me rethinking that I'd be looking at this wrong. Like

something inside. I don't think now or sorry I don't think then I could look and say that that was what was going through in my head or what was happening inside or whatever was going

on. But you know

on. But you know like as much as I've been coming across all this information and knowledge and whatever for a long time since I was a

kid, nothing really clicked and switched until probably that moment. And you

know, looking back now, like that probably did start to have me look at things a little bit differently. Like if

I was getting to that point to do that, but I wasn't terrified, wasn't scared. Something inside of me was

scared. Something inside of me was watching me make that call or go through those emotions and whatever and go, I'm still watching this though. I'm not like panicked about doing this. is certainly

me looking at stuff a little bit differently and realizing that no matter what I'd gone through in my life in 40 plus whatever years there was

something constant calm peaceful connected awake free all the time it had been

there all the time and I can feel it now I know it now I know it well enough now because it's a quiet mind and I can sense this and I feel as I sit in and I spend my time in this state. But it was

glimpses of that that had happened before. Small glimpses in playing sport,

before. Small glimpses in playing sport, small glimpses in meditation, small glimpses doing something you really love. Being with somebody, the people

love. Being with somebody, the people that you love to spend time with are the people that help quiet that space in your mind. The people that you hate to

your mind. The people that you hate to spend time with are the people that cause all kinds of stuff in your mind, right? Like it's true. You know it. You

right? Like it's true. You know it. You

know it intuitively. And that's all it is. They put you in a state because

is. They put you in a state because their conscious state is less busy, less frantic, less searching, less striving, less pursuit, less competing,

less acquiring. And these are all the

less acquiring. And these are all the things like we're taught to do all this stuff. Stake your position in the world,

stuff. Stake your position in the world, build your personal brand. Like I see it all over LinkedIn. Like there's it's this huge juggernaut of stuff. And

there's not that there's not truth to that. In the relative sense, there's

that. In the relative sense, there's truth. If you want to build a personal

truth. If you want to build a personal brand, this is how to do it.

They're speaking the gospel as far as building a personal brand is concerned. But building a personal brand

concerned. But building a personal brand doesn't mean happiness. At the end of day, it's just

happiness. At the end of day, it's just building a personal brand. And so when you believe your happiness is tied to building a personal brand, then you will pursue that path. And when you realize that it's not, you'll start to look for

something else. Something else will come

something else. Something else will come up. And it might be fine for a while. It

up. And it might be fine for a while. It

might be fine for a long time. But I

think you'll know to yourself that you can't lie to yourself and tell yourself that my mind is quiet all the time. That

I can be happy no matter what the circumstances. That I don't feel a sense

circumstances. That I don't feel a sense of lack or a sense of unhappiness or a sense of needing to strive. But work

still gets done. I still building a business and writing stuff and helping people do their things. And and I think it's the experience of life that

changes. It becomes more fun and it

changes. It becomes more fun and it becomes easy. It becomes easier to help

becomes easy. It becomes easier to help people. It becomes more fun to do that.

people. It becomes more fun to do that.

You spend time cultivating strengths, but you start to work on things that peique your curiosity. So, you're no longer in that mode of what are my

weaknesses that I need to fix. You're

into what's going to expand this thing of fun that I do into a broader thing of fun. Like, how many more hours of fun

fun. Like, how many more hours of fun can I get in the day if I just accept what comes my way? Because if I accept what comes my way, then I'm not fighting against it. Like I think your acceptance

against it. Like I think your acceptance surrender comment earlier on was spot on for that, right? Because what you're saying then is I'm not fighting and struggling at what comes, right? Chores

are no longer chores. Chores are ways of expressing myself in that moment. So, I

might put on house music real loud and dance and clean the bathroom while I'm doing that because, hey, look, I've got an hour to do this and it needs to be

done. It was never high on my list of,

done. It was never high on my list of, hey, I love doing this stuff, but I've grown to enjoy it because it's my time with the music on to do something

that doesn't take a lot of mental power, but serves a function. And the result of it is kind of fun at the end of the day.

And I know it's so bizarre like there's a part of me inside of me that I think or not not a part there's um a thought that occurs right that's like you have 5 years ago 10 years ago

would have you know thrown up at this and shut it off or whatever but like I think there's a little element of it you sort of start to realize that all that

resistance was you putting up a wall against something that was trying to was trying to shine through and it was just part of the journey. you had to kind of get to that you had to reach that point

to make it so attractive to pursue this path and it has been it's been a really rewarding path in the sense not in not not financially rewarding and all the

metrics that we would normally think of it's the peace of mind I I you know like this is the thing when you look at people that have wealth and power and

status and all these things or not like whatever the the thing is if you can safely say that there's something that You can't live without. I can't live without my phone.

without. I can't live without my phone.

I can't live without my friends. I can't

live without my family. I can't live without fries and maltesers and wine or whatever your thing is without working.

That's kind of the cost of your peace of mind. Think about it that way. Think

mind. Think about it that way. Think

about everything that you must have, that you need, that you want as the cost of your peace of mind. Because your

peace of mind is free, available to you now. If you accept what's happening now,

now. If you accept what's happening now, everything else is a cost. So you decide what's your what's the cost of your peace of mind and those are the things

that you go out and do outside of that stuff. Otherwise, let what happened

stuff. Otherwise, let what happened happen and your peace of mind is guaranteed 24/7. And it may not look like the

24/7. And it may not look like the things that we've seen on the outside.

And it may not end you on an award list and uh you know 40 under 40 and a like whatever the numbers are like those metrics it won't guarantee you to be the

talk of cocktail parties and dinner parties like none of those things. But

if peace of mind if you understood what peace of mind was if peace of mind was your goal then you just accept everything that was happening because you'd know you'd know that that was peace of

mind at its core.

most thank you for sharing such a personal moment of your journey. Thank

you. And

u while I was listening to you something came to my mind and you know it sounds like peace of mind on the complete

opposite of fear, right? The thing that puts you so close to burnout. The reason why many

of us do so many things that we don't like versus doing what we love is fear of what will happen if I don't do this

thing. So it is true that many people

thing. So it is true that many people that live the hustling life they succeed they have wealth and they say yeah but and I did because of the hustling

because every day I wake up and I do my thing and I'm disciplined. Yes.

That's your cortisol, right? You're

running on cortisol. The cortisol is pushing you to do all this stuff because fear is a great motivator is one is one

of the strongest motivator out there for for human beings, right? The fear of something happening.

was fear and thinking about what we thought today about the way we are conditioned from outside everything that

is thought to us it is fearbased right do this study if you don't study you get this and then you do this because if you don't you don't get money and then you

will get poor and yada yada yada all this stuff right um unfortunately us we live all our old lives life, right?

Pushed by fear until you get to a very old age. If you look at very old

old age. If you look at very old people, many of them, they have this peace of mind, right? They they they don't care anymore about what people

think about them or money or whatever.

They're just like, "Yeah, this is the way I am." Right? Not everybody, but most of them. At least in Italy, they are like that. So I thought yeah you can

get there by old age but sometimes you wake up because something happens to you or when you get to a point in your life

when you decide you know what I don't want to do this anymore then you don't have anything to lose anymore therefore fear disappears because if you don't

have anything to lose not even your life which is in the end the biggest fear of Right? The fear of dying. Then you get

Right? The fear of dying. Then you get to that point and you lots of people I heard many people saying that they start

thinking about no I give up. I I don't want to live anymore and instantly they feel better. There was this interview I

feel better. There was this interview I heard once which gave me goosebumps. He

still does of this person who tried to kill himself but he survived and he jumped from a bridge and he told what

was happening in his mind the way he was feeling while he was falling and he was like I I don't want to do this why am I doing this I'm okay I'm happy right and

fortunately he survived and he was able to bring this realization with him throughout his life then he was happy and everything went well. So this thing

that we that we're talking about this pursuit of happiness, this escaping from something that is bad because we need to survive. It sounds to me

survive. It sounds to me like it can happen that you wake up, you realize what's happening and that's when

you can access this peace of mind.

That's when you can remind remember okay it's it's okay things are okay. Yeah.

Some of us have little glimpse of of that in um in therapy they call it glimmers which are the opposite of

triggers right so these things that you look at them and you have that moment of oh wow life is good I'm safe right what

if we can we can extend that to the majority of our life or existence and see how life is and it sounds to me that

this is your journey at the moment. This

is close to what you are doing at the moment which is beautiful and again if we can share this with everybody who's listening or the word I think it's a

powerful a powerful message to leave out there. Thank you. I think yeah I think

there. Thank you. I think yeah I think you summarized it really well. I think

the fear the fear is is a big it's for everybody. It's an underlying but again

everybody. It's an underlying but again it's a filter right the underlying energy people talk about a oneness a love or a thing like that like there's underlying energy that is filtered

through a belief and that belief is a belief in being separate a belief in being a person that belief in being a personality and that belief turns an

energy that is creative creation itself loving you know a mother and child that kind of love it takes that energy

through that filter of feeling separate and turns it into fear and that fear becomes the driving kind of thing and it gets fragmented again multiple times

through all the other kinds of lenses around greed and anger and happiness and like all these kind of things that happen underlying it all is the same feeling whether you call it happiness contentment peace of mind love whatever

it's that same energy and yes you know when you can look at you know no When you mention about the the glimmers, if you looked at sleep as a

clue for eight hours in the day, maybe you dream for minutes of it, maybe hours of it, who knows? To you, it seems like the dream seems like a big part of your night, but the dream could have happened

in 5 seconds in the morning. Yeah. And

it felt like 500 years in your dream and you slept for 7 hours and 55 minutes of it or whatever, right? Um that deep sleep is a clue every

day that your natural state is this pure, peace of mind, content d. There are so many clues

content d. There are so many clues through the day as a kid and as you grow up and do things and pursue things that you love that it's there all the time.

And so it's not the lack of evidence in your day that this is what's going on.

It's the lack of insight and teaching and understanding and and more and more it's the repetition the the the heavy rotation and repetition of the contrary

messages out there in media in mass consumption in movies and shows and they're not doing it out of malice. It's

all out of entertainment. We've got time on this planet and we're just finding ways to spend our time. And if we find ways to spend our time where we consume messages that are untrue and we take its

truth and we keep reinforcing that message over and over again, we acquire an habit of looking at the world through a different set of filters, perspectives, lenses, and we lose this

thing that was there when we were young.

This feeling of being connected when we were young and we find it again in these moments. It's always there. It's never

moments. It's always there. It's never

gone. It's just matched by this other thing. It's an acquired habit. And you

thing. It's an acquired habit. And you

can Atomic habits for me like when I read that from James Clear like that was like a lightning like an explosion going off because it was not I mean it was great for people who have habits and want to change habits and everything

else but it kind of coincided at this time when I read something else about like who we take with ourselves to be as a person is a habit something in an Indian Sanskrit text thing that had been

translated. So I kind of like that

translated. So I kind of like that happened. And I read that I read

happened. And I read that I read something else something from when I was a kid like Celestine prophecy or something like that and then this thing atomic habits and something exploded in there which was like oh my

god the way we act and behave at every level is a habit and it's a habit born from a belief that we took on really early on of who we are. Our parents told

us you're this. This is your name and you are this. And then everybody around us said mhm that's right you're this and what's your name again? Okay, this is your name and you are this. But there's

no question you are this and so we just and you will get this and then you will become this and if you want to be really successful you will do this. Like you

just you can kind of see it like it was just stacked for us. And then you sort of unravel the threads and you go like I'm none of these things. They were all wrong. They were all wrong. Not out of

wrong. They were all wrong. Not out of wrong malice, anything like that. They

were all wrong because that was the journey to getting to here. They were

all wrong.

In fact, they were all right. They were

all right in leading me to here to now look they look at their perspectives as being right for the time wrong for today.

That's all it is. Every perspective,

everything people are chasing is right for the time, but wrong in retrospect and stuff afterwards. And you're right and wrong start to look at just different perspectives. You just look at

different perspectives. You just look at it from a different lens. When you

understand this, you look at it from a lens of understanding what's going on and you go, it's totally okay and it's totally fine. And that was the way it

totally fine. And that was the way it had to happen. But at that time when your first realization of it, you're like, "Oh my god, I cannot believe I was misled this way." And you're like, "Share this with people and people who

take it. Take it. People who don't

take it. Take it. People who don't don't. We're not going anywhere. This

don't. We're not going anywhere. This

message will be here forever. Take it now. Take it later.

forever. Take it now. Take it later.

We'll see you on the other side of this." Like it's, you know, it doesn't

this." Like it's, you know, it doesn't matter. It's um but if you want to make

matter. It's um but if you want to make use of it, if you want to the quickest way be in a spot where you can take on the most creative, passionate things

that light you up inside in your life like that to be positioned to take that on and enjoy it and love it and make it all they can be. Take this as a starting

point to free yourself of all the conditions and limitations you put on yourself that would make that journey not fun that would make it stressful where you would burn out. If you're

hearing this message it's your time to hear it and make use of it. If you don't want to, that's fine, you know, but if you can and you hear it and you want to do it, go do it. Because it's it's in

some ways it's the hardest work. And the

paradox is the easiest work as well.

Because the hardest work is to get rid of all your previous beliefs. The

easiest work is to believe in this. Just

believe this. Believe that what you've been told and taught is not completely absolutely true. It is relatively true

absolutely true. It is relatively true and it works for a period of time and it leads you to a point where you can discover the absolute truth for yourself. But you have to discover it

yourself. But you have to discover it for yourself. But you have to look at

for yourself. But you have to look at things as clues and not negative things.

Don't try to avoid I mean it's weird, right? I would say don't try to avoid

right? I would say don't try to avoid burnout.

But the truth is have burnout but look at burnout as a clue but don't go chasing burnout. Don't pursue burnout.

chasing burnout. Don't pursue burnout.

If you've had burnout, pursue the insight that comes from burnout. If

you're going to pursue something, pursue insight, understanding. Sit with

insight, understanding. Sit with yourself, be silent, and understand what's going on. Pursue that if you're going to have to pursue it. If someone

listening is thinking this resonates with me so much, but maybe is a practical person like me, a logical person, and say, "Yeah, but I understand, but where do I start? What

can I do in the practice in my everyday life that helps me to find this alignment to find it's not the right word but to have

this is there a practice that you will suggest something that maybe helped you immensely and you would like to share yeah like I think I think all the practices have had their way I can see

that now meditation for a while breath work prayer at some level like I grew up in a family that had like pretty strong religious roots in the community and stuff like that. like and you know you

start to discover that all these states kind of feel the same but I would say the practice I would focus on is like pay attention to the chatter in your mind but for two

reasons right so one is pay attention to the content of the chatter okay because we're so accustomed to content let's let's let's let's use it to our benefit so pay attention to

the content listen to the desires listen to the times you say I mustn't or I must or I should and I shouldn't to listen to those words because those are conditioning at work because you're comparing to something. I should do this

and I shouldn't do that. There's a

comparison and a judgment, everything wrapped up into one. It's like a whole burrito sandwich combo deal. Like, so

just look at those things because they are obvious clues to all the conditioning. You start to hear your

conditioning. You start to hear your parents' voices, your teachers voices, TV, movies. You start to realize that a

TV, movies. You start to realize that a lot of your chatter dayto-day is from movies, from radio shows. You just

repeat certain things. But that's the the chatter. Pay attention to it. Your

the chatter. Pay attention to it. Your

desires, your must because it'll give you clues to all that. Limit your

consumption of media as much as you can. And it doesn't mean don't go on it. So go on it. I

spend time on Instagram and other like go on it. I filtered my my feed so much so that when I go on it for consumption,

I'm in a different spot. And if I but like work on limiting that piece of news and everything else because I'm not saying forever just look at it for a

week. You start to spot how much stuff

week. You start to spot how much stuff is around you. Maybe a couple weeks might do that. But those practices being observant and being attentive. And the

reason I point out that practice is this isn't for everybody. This podcast isn't going to be for everybody. So the people who are going to hear this and take this to heart are going to be people that have tried a lot of other things and now

they're here. So being attentive will

they're here. So being attentive will start to show you that your attention is not how we might perceive as sort of monolithic. When I say monolithic

of monolithic. When I say monolithic like a block your attention is not like a block. Your attention is like finely

a block. Your attention is like finely finely finely sliced filters. And you

can start to look at your attention. You

start to pick out the words and the thoughts that you use and you'll start to see how they shape your experience of reality in the current moment. You'll

start to see that as things are happening right now in the second you are commenting and narrating softly in the background about what's going on.

Whether you like the color of the room and the painting that you've had for 10 years, whether it's getting too old and needs a little dust, or how dirty your place looks because people are coming

over later, and how you know that, you know, like, and it's subtle and it's common, and so we ignore it, but it actually

completely limits and filters your experience, your perspective of someone who looks at the world that way. When

you start to pay attention to it, that starts to expand. Your

attention starts to flex. It becomes

more flexible. It becomes more open. It

becomes more expansive. It becomes more relaxed. Becomes more peaceful. But you

relaxed. Becomes more peaceful. But you

have to kind of bring that attention to it. I think that for me on top of

it. I think that for me on top of meditation, everything else, I think meditation and breath work in those things formed a wedge of quiet time that started to look

like all the other things. and paying

attention like this right to expand that. Yes. Where you know people I see

that. Yes. Where you know people I see comments like I can't meditate for two hours at a time. You shouldn't be don't don't meditate for two hours at a time.

It like anything it can be dangerous for your health. Don't do it. Just meditate

your health. Don't do it. Just meditate

enough to understand that your thought chatter is the noisy part of your existence. Meditate enough to be able to

existence. Meditate enough to be able to put yourself into that into that spot.

So you can pay attention to the thoughts and the traffic coming by. But then pay attention to the traffic so that you can see the traffic for what it is which is just made up words and garbage that's

just running through. And once you start to see that there's even more levels of attention below that that you start to observe. So there's the first part which

observe. So there's the first part which is the content. I'm asking people to pay attention to the content. The second

part is this is the more subtle part.

This is where you kind of then take this exercise to another level which is in observing it you realize there's someone talking and there's someone listening.

Who is talking and who is listening and which one are you?

We at some level get taught to believe we're one thing and the truth is the furthest from it. And when you start to pay attention

it. And when you start to pay attention the person talking is talking in a certain language. The person listening

certain language. The person listening can listen in any language. I'm just

going to pause and help you just think about that for a second. Right? The

person talking speaks in a language. Person listening is open for

language. Person listening is open for all languages. The person talking is the

all languages. The person talking is the person with the pursuit. The person

listening has nowhere to go, nowhere to run, nowhere to strive for, nothing to reach, nothing to achieve. They're

already there, always there. So once you like you can

always there. So once you like you can pay attention to the content. So that's

fine as an exercise to get you really accustomed to listening. But the the the real value, the real gem in all of this is to realize that there's a person

talking and a person listening or not a person in either case. There's something

talking, something listening, what's listening, what's talking, and any words I put are going to be incapable of describing it because a word is going to narrow it and limit it and all that kind

of stuff. But just just ponder on that.

of stuff. But just just ponder on that.

Take a moment to sit quietly and reflect on the fact that there's something here that listens to something that talks.

And the thing that listens doesn't have anywhere to go. And in a way, you have a choice. It's not really a choice, but

choice. It's not really a choice, but you have a choice to identify with the voice that talks or the voice that listens or the entity that listens, the thing that listens. What's listening?

And if you can connect with the what's listening, you'll find that that's your peace of mind. That's

your inner kind of thing that's happy and peaceful and creative and all that kind of stuff and and work and all those things that may have seemed to bother you before or may have felt like work to

do suddenly start to become expressions of what's listening and expressions of what's listening become compassionate and become kind and become joyful and become loving. They're not the

become loving. They're not the expressions of what's talking. What's

talking can be made to sound loving and kind and compassionate. But what's

listening is already that it's just expressing that.

Beautifully said. So for everyone who's listening who resonates with what we talked about for the last half hour and a half probably if you want to find that

alignment if you if something about what we said speaks to you first be mindful of that of the content of your mind

through meditation or prayer or breath work in order to create that space of awareness that right there is something

there is some noise here and be mindful of the content that you consume. So what

you're putting into this container into this mind and then be mind realize that okay there is a content there is some a

voice that is speaking and there is someone listening and notice that and try to stay as much as possible in the

listening let's say again for lack of better words in the listening part and observe what happens am I correct did It's a great great great summary.

Perfect. Yeah, I could have used that at the end of the chapter, but yeah. Yeah,

I think I think that's it. I think it's to to be mindful of that. I think, you know, prayer, breath work, meditation, they work for me. Um, people have different modality of things. They do

stuff like yoga, but I think we're all drawn to something points here. Yes,

everyone everyone is drawn to dance, music, something. Yes. In psychology, we

music, something. Yes. In psychology, we have this thing. This is basically a this is a skill and it's called cognitive diffusion. So it is based on

cognitive diffusion. So it is based on the fact that normally in our everyday life we are fused with our thoughts.

Right? So we are one with our thoughts and we believe we are our thoughts. So

if I think I'm an idiot, if I think I'm not capable of it, I'm not enough or I'm not going to make it. Right? This is me

because I believe I am that thought.

Cognitive diffusion teaches you how to look at a thought instead of buying into a thought. Kind of like when you if

a thought. Kind of like when you if you've ever took a um a photo with one of those old camera when you can adjust

the focus and you can have something that close to you very clear and the background is blurred. Right? So it

teaches you to detach from your thoughts and you can do that in different ways.

Some of them are pretty fun like let's say the thought is I'm not enough. You

can try and repeat it over and over up until it loses its meaning. If you

repeat a word of not enough, not enough not up until it loses its meaning.

Something happen in your mind in your brain really that stop gives meaning to that thought and this creates a

beautiful space for the awareness that you can talk about and say okay so that was a thought you wake up. Another one

is to to say it with a funny voice.

I'm enough. I'm not enough. And then you

enough. I'm not enough. And then you hear yourself and it's kind of you take that voice that in into your head and you put it outside and you that's a

thought that's not me. And I think that that's a good exercise for everyone who may be struggling with um you know those intrusive thoughts or those thoughts of

not being enough or really just negative thoughts to start approaching this right. It's kind of a a door to open up

right. It's kind of a a door to open up all the rest. I love those great examples.

That's a really good way of describing it. Yes, that's a good one. I took you a

it. Yes, that's a good one. I took you a lot of your time, but I wanted to to ask you to say a few words about what you're doing at the moment. So, your your venture, what are you working on? Where

are we going to see you and how are you helping people at the moment? How can

they find you? Yeah. Like I So, you know, I've kind of been going where this kind of energy pulls and takes me a little bit. So, I uh wrote a chapter in

little bit. So, I uh wrote a chapter in a book that some friends have put together. It's a second volume. It's um

together. It's a second volume. It's um

a series of authors all describing something that they wish they knew like a piece of advice or wisdom or an insight that they want to share with other people. And so that book is coming

other people. And so that book is coming out in September. The chapter I wrote is on the pursuit of happiness. And uh it's kind of my story and journey a bit like what we've talked about today. some of

the things that I discovered like I I went pretty deep into this search for the last decade and and whether it's reading and books or experiences and substances and practices and rituals and

and all these things from different cultures all around the world. I went

really deep because I really wanted to understand why this stuff kept happening. And what I discovered was a

happening. And what I discovered was a lot of what we talked about today. But

in it is is this realization, this insight that it is our learned habit of pursuit, our learned habit of who we are that kind of gets in the way of us

really enjoying what life in existence has to offer us. And to be in that uh that permanent state of contentment or peace of mind. Um you know, it's not

it's uh get rich quick. It's not a get uh beautiful, healthy, fit, smart, like it's got none of those and none of the 10 tips and stuff like that. But, you

know, I can honestly say I've never felt this kind of peace before in my life and putting this into practice over the last year has

brought amazing people into my world.

It's changed kind of how I live and how I relate to people. So, I'm I'm really excited about this coming out. I I wrote it for my kids, you know. I I wrote it as u what would I want to leave with

them like if I couldn't leave much with them you know we we kind of get trained to leave assets and houses and cottages and like I you know here in Canada that's the cottage thing is the big

thing you kind of get you know to leave inheritance and a nest egg and all that kind of stuff and and as I went through the stuff I was like you know be madness like there's nothing that I can leave

that'll stand the test of time like that we all lose these things at At the end, this all goes from us in that last moment, there's nothing else left other than your understanding of who you are

and what's about to happen. And even if you lose the fear of dying somehow along the way, which is possible, like it's possible to lose that fear of dying.

Either something happens, you realize something, you understand something. But

when you when you lose that fear, you can approach death and whenever it happens with a full understanding of what is what you're not you you know it's it's it's hard to

understand and accept and describe what you are because there are no words for what what that is. But you can experience it and feel it and that's

what we're in search of. and feel or know or sense or whatever that right now the work I'm doing and the things I'm

doing are part of this expression to share it to talk about it to live it to actually live it like I think that's the fundamental first thing

that's important to me like I you know I'm very happy to be on here very happy to share this story but it's a welcome kind of thing to feel so true about this

that I couldn't care less what happens to this work because it's out there.

Yeah. And it's done and it's what I feel and what I feel is true and what need and you know I I'm excited to see it out there. I'm excited to share with people.

there. I'm excited to share with people.

I'm I'm buil I've built a business a couple years ago around sharing you know real stories and human connection on on QR codes for gifting for businesses stuff like that. I'm

still building that because I think building that business allowed me to express this side of me fully. And so

I've lived the this wasn't sort of seeing an insight and then writing about it immediately after and then you know like this has been living this experience to go if I'm going to write about something it has to be something

I've lived through it. And in a way the writing happened on its own. It wasn't

sort of me pushing it. I got asked I said yes. It's a bit like those

said yes. It's a bit like those acceptances. I just accepted the

acceptances. I just accepted the opportunities and the invites that sat in front of me. You know, it's a chapter in a book. It's not a full book. It's

just this. And so now like I I my work really now is to share this insight to work with people who want to explore

this because I think this is a gateway to understanding who you really are. And

that's the work that I find most fun because the dawning of that insight is such a it's such a joyful experience.

Um joyful is hard to to to describe it.

There's something that happens when when consciousness in people reaches this point of almost full realization.

Think of the if you can think of the moment of pure bliss right before you sink into deep sleep. Think think of that moment when you know there's no return. You're going to go to sleep and

return. You're going to go to sleep and it's going to be a great sleep. You know

the the tossing and turning's gone, all the sheep have gone, like everything's out. And if you have a glimmer of that

out. And if you have a glimmer of that moment, it doesn't always happen. It

happens sometimes, but you know what that feels like. You can sense it. And

and that feeling is kind of the feeling that happens when you start to to live like this. And I want to help

like this. And I want to help people who are curious about it to discover it for themselves and to figure out how to do it for themselves.

There's no path. There's no prescription around it. It's a bit of discovering

around it. It's a bit of discovering things. But I think if you know someone

things. But I think if you know someone who's gone through it or someone who feels that way is exploring it, it's nice to have a friend along because you can share it and talk about it and stuff

like that. So yeah, I think for me it's

like that. So yeah, I think for me it's like the book sharing this with people and and working with them on it. Yeah,

growing Vimi. I think I love what we do with it. I love sharing these personal

with it. I love sharing these personal notes. I love seeing people's faces

notes. I love seeing people's faces light up when they see these video messages. And uh yeah, I'm excited about

messages. And uh yeah, I'm excited about growing something or doing something that's nonsocial, non email, kind of old school human connection. you know, when

you can't be there in person, something that lets you share that feeling and share that presence with somebody. Um,

and it's just a nice feeling. And I like the feeling. You know, we talked about

the feeling. You know, we talked about pursuing things that make you joyful or whatever. I think this is one of those

whatever. I think this is one of those examples of it's it's not wildly successful. I'm

not I've got stuff to work on. There's

debt, you know, you know, it's not that.

But it's it's the most fun I've had. I

love working with the clients I work with. I love seeing their expressions. I

with. I love seeing their expressions. I

love how it's being used and and I can't imagine doing anything different right now. I just can't. It's beautiful. And

now. I just can't. It's beautiful. And

the magical thing is that when you operate from a place like this, you attract that kind of people and reality

and events and stuff around you. That's

the reality. The kind of don't like the word vibrations energy, but the kind of energy that you are operating from, you start to attract that around you. And

it's so beautiful to see it unfolding.

It's almost unbelievable. It happens. It

happened to me to us L and I when we we met you. We were just starting to change

met you. We were just starting to change a few things around and then you appeared then we had this beautiful conversations which propelled us and

moved us. So that's beautiful and that

moved us. So that's beautiful and that brings other joy. I have to say that kind of stuff like hearing that and seeing that like just doing it was the joy in it. hearing now the impact

afterwards is like it's great. It's like

the icing in the cherry on top. But I

think like you're saying like having these conversations and doing these things are kind of what you're here for in a way. You're here to do the things that you can do and if what you're doing

is helpful to people, great. You know,

um do more of it. And you'll know that because intuitively you won't want to do things that don't. I know people sort of say when they get to this point that you can see all this stuff and

but you know you you'll do good things if you find immense freedom. Some people

might mistake it as power. It's not in that sense. It's immense freedom to

that sense. It's immense freedom to accept what's happening because you're standing in a point of such conviction in the truth of what's going on. Sorry,

some people just came back to listening.

It's okay. You're standing in such conviction and truth of what you are that nothing phases you. It doesn't

matter. It might for a blip for a moment, but it doesn't after that. And

then you're free to go and create and do things and engage with the world and and do things for fun and all that kind of stuff. And then you can't help but do it

stuff. And then you can't help but do it out of joy. And you can't help but be good quote quote unquote around. Even if

sometimes the stuff doesn't look that rosy, it's not all butterflies and unicorns. And that's okay. you start to

unicorns. And that's okay. you start to realize that everything can be butterflies and unicorns. Yes. And it's

beautiful to see how a thing that seems so far away from uh the meaning of life like creating a business like I want to

create a business and you say okay it doesn't have to do with life no it's so similar to whatever happens in life for

me before I started my venture I never thought about why do I do what I do right no I knew I wanted to be a psychologist a therapist but why do I do

what I do. And when someone started to ask me that, I realized that my why is if someone is suffering, I want him or her I want they to know that it doesn't

have to be this way. There's another

way. All right, that simple as that.

That's that's what I like feel the urge to share out there. That's another way.

It's not said that I know what it is, but we can find it together. Stop. As

simple as that. And before having a business, I didn't know that. I mean, I knew it, but it wasn't here. It was in front of me. It was somewhere. So, it's

very beautiful to see how something so apparently unrelated can unfold something so so powerful. It really

unlocked it. I think starting a business really opened up my eyes. Like, it's

been a gift. It's been a gift. Yeah.

Yeah. So, beautiful. beautiful and also connected through a business thing, right? Through LinkedIn. So life, right?

right? Through LinkedIn. So life, right?

Yeah, I met some great people like I think a couple of the businesses I invested in and people I'm closest to, my closest friends now are probably a couple people from LinkedIn. Same same.

Okay, I'll steal any time. Thank you.

Okay, thank you so much for being here.

I will tell you when this is going to be out and I hope to talk to you very soon again. Of course.

again. Of course.