From Grand Slams to Flatlines: Inside the Operator Playbook for Surviving Stalled Growth

You have me and Matt today, the two greatest operators. We're here to talk

greatest operators. We're here to talk about what it feels like to fail.

>> Probably the hardest thing to do as a operating team is the diagnostic work that tells you why growth has stalled.

>> Everyone would rather take a little bit of pain all the time than to take a massive a massive amount of pain all at once.

>> Sometimes super fast growth is just going to mask a whole bunch of things.

>> Yeah. Look, and if you only like your business when it's growing and you don't like your business when it's shrinking, it's like, yeah, maybe you don't like your business, right? It's really hard to be awesome forever.

Welcome to the Operators podcast. But

before we get started with today's episode, want to thank the six sponsors that make this podcast possible.

Fulfill, Northbeam, Sarah's Postcript, Revo, and Rich Panel. Could not do the show without you. Here we go.

>> [music] >> Jones Road Beauty Cody, this ad read is just for you. I use fulfill. Grun's use

fulfill. Cuts uses fulfill. Hexcloud

uses fulfill. Why did we all choose fulfill? Fulfill will help you move off

fulfill? Fulfill will help you move off in a matter of weeks. There's no

expensive middleware. There's no

thirdparty developers. There's no

consultants off Upwork you got to hire.

Fulfill will do everything. You can be live in a couple of weeks for order management, inventory management, accounting, EDI, purchasing and manufacturing.

All of those that's the the full soup to nuts uh modules that they offer. Pick

one, choose one, do all of them, whatever. Fulfill is here to make stuff

whatever. Fulfill is here to make stuff work for you. There's a reason why Cuts left Nutsweet. There's a reason why

left Nutsweet. There's a reason why Grunes, the greatest ecom brand of the past 5 years, was looking at all of them and they chose Fulfill. Have you seen my eight sleep scores? I'm getting 80s 90s every single night. Right? And that's

cuz Fulfill. I'm sleeping soundly because I know Fulfill is working seamlessly behind the scenes to deal with all of my order volume. If I do a thousand orders or 10,000 orders, Fulfill does not care. It pipes his

orders directly to my 3PL and takes care of everybody. They are the number one

of everybody. They are the number one ERP for this podcast for a reason.

They're our number one sponsor. I use

them. Cuts uses them. Hexcloud uses

them. Grunes uses them. Everybody uses

them. Mention the operators podcast. And

you can use them, too. Thank you so much for being the number one sponsor. Thank

you listener for listening and I'll talk to you later. Goodbye.

Welcome to the Operators podcast. You

have me and Matt today, the two greatest operators. We're here to talk about what

operators. We're here to talk about what it feels like to fail. Uh so this is a different type of conversation. This

podcast is typically just us dunking, us winning, us hitting grand slams, but even the greatest brands only hit 50/50, right? It's really hard to be awesome

right? It's really hard to be awesome forever. So, we are here to explain why

forever. So, we are here to explain why brands might not be winning all the time. And if you aren't winning right

time. And if you aren't winning right now, help coach you back to a winning position.

Isn't that right, man? What else are we doing today?

>> Yeah, dude. It's what do you do when things when you stop growing, right? And and that could mean a lot of

right? And and that could mean a lot of things. That could mean like uh bottom

things. That could mean like uh bottom line starts to shrink. So, I've got a guy I was talking to part part of the reason I want to talk to you about this, Sean, is I was talking to a a younger founder last week and it's he's got like

so much margin compression this year.

He's like like nothing is my bottom line is shrinking now for the first time in his business's history. Revenue is kind of flattish, maybe up a little bit, but bottom line is actually like receding.

That sucks. Um, and it got me thinking that, you know, this year there's a lot of ver variables. Like there's a lot of volatility in every year, but there's

always people who are not growing and like we should actually talk about that.

Like what happens when you start to feel like you're just not winning anymore?

And winning in our business usually means growth. Um, so yeah, it's like how

means growth. Um, so yeah, it's like how do you deal with this? What what are the what are the various reasons? How do you think about it, Sean? Like that's why I

wanted to talk to you guys. is like what would you what would you do first right like oh the wallet category is dead like it's just not growing anymore what do I do um

>> yeah you know and then additionally I think we should define what winning is so I think that's helpful for everybody and we should talk about you know being in this messy middle of like you have

something that worked at one point it's starting to look like it isn't working that is the toughest place to be because if you fail >> like if if it's a outright failure.

That's very fast and that's actually very easy to deal with, right? Like if

something explodes, there's nothing left. But this is like where you have a

left. But this is like where you have a broken leg and you're kind of limping along and you don't know what to do to get better. So um

get better. So um >> yeah, totally. Um so why don't we start with this? What let's just define

with this? What let's just define winning.

>> What is your what's your definition?

>> Yeah, this is a personal thing for everybody, right? So you said in

everybody, right? So you said in consumer typically winning is growth and I would say that is like the de facto response. It's like topline's growing.

response. It's like topline's growing.

That's what people care about. Like it

is it is horsepower in a car number.

Like you you buy the car with the biggest horsepower, right? Because

that's that's the better one. It's

obviously more nuanced than that. It

doesn't take into account, you know, uh weight. It's [laughter] like doesn't

weight. It's [laughter] like doesn't take into account like the nimleness, right? A Miata is actually a great car.

right? A Miata is actually a great car.

It has 200 horsepower. Um so I do think most people just consider topline growth to be that winning thing. And this

podcast is to challenge you to think about different ways uh to to win, right? Um it's harder to accept, but

right? Um it's harder to accept, but like I think having a good lifestyle is is the ultimate win, right? You know, we I told this to my CMO, Connor,

yesterday. Ridge is a very difficult

yesterday. Ridge is a very difficult brand to get to $500 million. We're

still on that journey. We were trying to get it to $500 million in revenue. It'd

be the easiest brand at $50 million. I

could have like a 20x ME. I could have probably 50% net operating margins. I

could just be balling out at a $50 million a year business, right? And you

should just look at those facts in your business. Like should my business be

business. Like should my business be bigger than it is? We're trying to make Ridge as big as possible and it's like we're stuck in a balloon and like I'm trying to like push out against against

the elastic, right? Um where a lot of businesses should naturally be smaller.

So that's like my my my first discussion point is that defining winning and it it doesn't just have to be topline number go up. You know it I don't hear too many

go up. You know it I don't hear too many people say this often but [clears throat] I have definitely written about this that every business I think has an ideal

size right and that when you when you decide to go beyond that size so like for Ridge it might be like at 50 million bucks we would be crazy profitable you're making a conscious decision to

try to do something harder more difficult you're going to give up like actual margin percent like you're going to give up profitability as a percentage to go chase something else that you guys have all agreed to say like we're going

to set a new definition of winning and we have a different vision for the future. I really think a lot of

future. I really think a lot of entrepreneurs should look at their comp like the company that they're starting or that they're in and really be critical about

where is this thing going to be the most fun to run like most enjoyable. And then

if you haven't selfishly, like this is a very selfish thing, but if you have not gotten to like a financial security position from your company yet, like that should be priority one. Like you

got to get there. Like get some money out of the damn company in some way so that you can actually like step back and then define what winning is to you personally because I think like at the

beginning, Sean, you'd probably agree like winning is probably survival.

So, like base level winning is just like I'm in the game and I'm still in the game. I haven't got my ass knocked out

game. I haven't got my ass knocked out yet.

>> Yeah. A lot of great nuggets in there.

Um, let's talk about the natural size of businesses. Ridge Wallet, the natural

businesses. Ridge Wallet, the natural size of that business is $50 million. To

get to 200 million, I've had to change the business. Like

the business. Like >> so it's like if you're not willing to change your business to hit your revenue targets, it's like then you you you have to you'll always be suffering, right? So

to change the business, I had to build all these new product lines and take risk and challenges and take failures and like confront that. And if you're not doing that, then you're probably stuck in the natural size of your

business. We we have a friend they do

business. We we have a friend they do they they were doing t-shirts. Okay,

t-shirts is a very very very hard business and they were doing you know5 million a year doing t-shirts. That

business probably shrunk to $3 million a year doing t-shirts. Then they took all that creative energy to make t-shirts and they started making board games. Now

that business will do $15 million off of board games, right? So they've changed their business because the natural size of that business should be bigger now, right? So I think I think you're super

right? So I think I think you're super you're super smart about that. Do I

guess do you think though like just to hit on that in that case that's clearly not a TAM issue t-shirt on t the TAM on t-shirts is huge. It was just that particular

huge. It was just that particular business the way they approached it whatever the variables were that was why it was stuck.

>> Yeah. And it it wasn't it wasn't generic cotton t-shirts. It was a niche of

cotton t-shirts. It was a niche of t-shirts that, you know, like funny, irreverent t-shirts, like, you know, printed on demand, no wholesale exposure, just like a lot of things

about that business like, yeah, it's they could get it to be bigger, but it was harder, then they found something that could actually it naturally wants to grow, right? Um

the second thing, yeah, you you should understand that your goals or happiness will change over time because you're

like, you know, you said survival. Yeah.

When I was 20, my business, I just wanted to make sure I didn't have to work for somebody. I just didn't want a job right?

>> Sure. Yeah.

>> And and as you get older, that those wants are going to change and success is going to look different, right? And

that's why a lot of people I think get these visions of $20 million fly flying private whatever just oh my god I tell people all the time oh my god

as soon as possible get to a million dollars in the bank you know people say money can't buy happiness it doesn't buy happiness it relieves the stress of being poor as someone who was poor

>> it sucks dude so [laughter] whatever whatever it takes even if you think your business could be bigger and worth more in the future it's I always push people to get that first million dollars in the bank as soon as possible.

>> Yes.

>> Yes. Yeah. Like define a security number.

I think we we forget that like first is financial security. Second is freedom.

financial security. Second is freedom.

>> Yeah, dude. A million%. Um and if you're listening to this podcast, you're there's two people two groups of people right now. One are people saying,

right now. One are people saying, "Godamn Sean, of course I want a million dollars. You're so out of touch." Okay,

dollars. You're so out of touch." Okay,

I agree with you. There's a segment of people being like, I my business is worth more than that. I don't care. I'm

gonna wait. Those are the people I'm trying to speak to right now. They are

at risk. It's like just sell some equity to somebody at some point. Just get a couple million dollars. And nine out of 10en times you will thank me later for doing it.

>> Mhm. Yep. Okay. So, definition of winning, right? That's going to change

winning, right? That's going to change based on stage of company and your own ambitions and your own vision. So, like

I think that's great advice. Um, it's

it's easy to get a little obsessive about the category you're in or categories and TAM and like the mechanics of things and forget that like the business is actually here to serve

you. It's not the other way around. Um,

you. It's not the other way around. Um,

so I think that's a great advice, Sean.

So, let's say like somebody's super clear on their definition of winning.

Uh, and in consumer I'm going to say like you probably want that to be bottom line health as a minimum and then growth

of some kind as like your upside, right?

That's how you feel, you know, like you're you're you've got momentum. Maybe

momentum is the right word. Maybe it's

not growth. Like you feel like you have momentum in the business. Okay.

What how do you think then? Like Ridge

is not ridge is like any other company.

all people know you for is like Sean just seems to crush all the time.

There's clearly been moments where like you've hit plateaus, you've hit like these things where it's like this is actually really hard right now. I don't

know if you want to talk about specific ones, but I'd love to know like if you had a brand and that brand was on track to be flat this year, how are you thinking about solving that problem? And

you know, like no, no, this should be a lot bigger. Like the TAM is there, we

lot bigger. Like the TAM is there, we can do it. We have a great product. Our

customers like us. We're just not growing.

>> Yeah.

I mean, this is this like this is this podcast is the most difficult advice to ever give someone, right? Um and it's so dependent on the business and the

scenario and everything else. But um you know we were just talking to Danny who is the founder of IM8 with David Beckham and IM8 started as a COVID testing

company that was public in Hong Kong, right? They were responsible for every

right? They were responsible for every COVID test in Hong Kong. At one point they had 2,000 employees. He cut it down to less than a 100red employees when COVID went away, right? So he did a very

drastic thing to save that business.

like and the most difficult you have to read the fog of war where it's it's like okay we're not growing is this going to get a lot worse is this a macro effect

is this us effect or like or or do we just need to hunker down and and and and get through this period and everyone's response is to hunker down because the everyone would rather take a little bit

of pain all the time than to take a massive a massive amount of pain all at once. Um, and that is that is where

once. Um, and that is that is where companies die, the slow bleed out, right? Like not doing the drastic thing,

right? Like not doing the drastic thing, thinking things will naturally get better. Um, you have to like understand

better. Um, you have to like understand that the natural state of the universe is [ __ ] going horrible. [laughter]

It's like it's like it's it's it's it's entropy, right? It's it's all these

entropy, right? It's it's all these things fall apart. I think momentum is a good way to talk about it. It's like

once your momentum starts to slow down, what are you going to do to pick it back up? So, let's actually start using

up? So, let's actually start using practical examples. Uh because really

practical examples. Uh because really like the scenario we're trying to describe here is not a massive success and it's not a massive failure because both those are easy ends of the curve, right? Something's a massive failure,

right? Something's a massive failure, you go bankrupt, you do it again, right?

A massive success, you know, why you listen to this podcast? This is that this is that in between um where things used to work or were working like they're just working a little bit worse

now. I have two practical examples. So I

now. I have two practical examples. So I

had an agency business that was most my agency clients, right?

Most of them were stuck in this area where there's and it's a graveyard of brands you've never heard of. Thousands

of brands that like had something got to five 10 1520 million and for some reason they wouldn't ex keep accelerating the the momentum died. And usually what I

think that is it's a division of the company. So it's like the leadership and

company. So it's like the leadership and product and marketing aren't actually all in alignment. And the proof is they're using an agency, right? Like as

good as an agency as I am, like you need to have all those things in alignment to actually hit that momentum, right?

>> Yeah. What are your thoughts on that, Matt?

>> No, I do I actually have never heard that as like a first take. Like when I think of uh momentum slowing down, I'm like, well, is that a the things that we've been doing are no longer working

or is it like is it a macro thing? Is it

is it something in my control? Whereas I

think what you're hitting on uh is actually really interesting is like do you actually have misalignment in the team um ownership level or execution level right like we just don't agree on

or or like people are going in different directions so we're not actually all working on the on the right things >> that way >> I think it is the sand changing beneath your feet so it's like something

something has changed but you you don't catch it because the leadership's focused on one thing the product team's doing another thing and the marketing team's doing something else. And like a lot of a lot of times I think about like

the clients at the agency, they just brought a product that wasn't ready for the market or didn't actually meet the market.

>> It's like that's like that's what it comes down to. It's like we we had a Whoop competitor, really awesome team, really awesome people, but like they were trying to sell a a product the market just did not want. But outsource

marketing team, it's very hard to give that feedback to the team. [laughter]

>> Well, it's actually just as hard internally, dude. like it's really

internally, dude. like it's really difficult to look at the product or or so like what you're selling or how you're selling it and then self diagnose that you're doing the wrong thing like

that this is just it's not going to work right um you know I don't know if it's a Buffett or a Mer or like one of I'm sure it's like one of those like really old smart guys in business where they've got this analogy of like sometimes you're

just in the wrong damn boat like you just need to switch vehicles >> like you're you're a talented uh like we've got a mutual friend who sells underwear

And like this guy is like crazy smart, but he's selling underwear. So like

there's always going to be an upper bound to what he is capable of achieving because the car he's in is underwear, [laughter] right? Like that's a

[laughter] right? Like that's a difficult category to make work.

>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, he's he's an F1 driver uh at the go-kart racetrack.

You got to get you got to get in a faster car.

>> So I I get I guess I get that. I think

then like the then you got to go drill like you drill down. So I think there's like growth can stall for tactical reasons and growth can stall for

strategic reasons. I think we talk a lot

strategic reasons. I think we talk a lot about the strategic ones on the show and we can do that today too. But that's

like oh you're like you just hit the upper bound of selling metal wallets on the internet, right? So like you need more channels or more markets or more products now. Like those are strategic

products now. Like those are strategic things. So like growth can stall for

things. So like growth can stall for like, oh, I've just done a really good job tapping out the TAM of the thing I'm selling with the messages that I'm using.

Hey, you know what's important to your business? Understanding it. That's where

business? Understanding it. That's where

Sarasolitus comes in. Jason, what if I told you that our margins yesterday were about 30%. But like, you know, there's a

about 30%. But like, you know, there's a big difference between saying you're about 30% and saying you're 27.4%.

Right? like that that level of precision can only happen if your data is rock solid and in one place where you can actually pull it from. That's where Sar Sal comes in for rich. So every single day I'm going in there. I'm looking at

my contribution margin. I'm looking at my sales breakdown, my sales by product type, and it really just starts shining a light into like the the black holes of your business. Jason, what have you

your business. Jason, what have you gotten out of Sierra Analytics?

>> Honestly, everything is at my fingertips. Our dashboards pull in from

fingertips. Our dashboards pull in from everywhere from Shopify, from Amazon, from our ERP, um, from Costco, every single channel. And we go to Saras Pulse

single channel. And we go to Saras Pulse and we get our daily contribution margin reporting. We get all of our marketing

reporting. We get all of our marketing metrics by channel, by category, even down to the skew. Everything is pulled in automatically. I get an email report

in automatically. I get an email report in the morning. I go check things during the day. My entire team lives in this

the day. My entire team lives in this thing.

>> Yeah. And everyone knows the revenue yesterday. If you ask any brand, they'll

yesterday. If you ask any brand, they'll tell you what the revenue was. Maybe 20%

of brands can tell you their contribution margin and about 0% of brands can tell you their profit for yesterday. And if you're not watching

yesterday. And if you're not watching your profit on a daily or at least weekly basis, it can just get get out from under you. You know, to the Saras's team's credit, we have a daily growth

dashboard sheet from probably 2018 and they were able to import all of that data. And the reason to do that is

data. And the reason to do that is eventually sheets just breaks. like we

ended up having three or four full-time people like maintaining this giant sheet and Sar Analytics by putting it into an actual database with actual data connectors and pipelines. It just makes

it more futurep proof. I'm going to give you guys a realworld use case. So, I

just had to set 2026 financial budgets.

Sir Analytics made that data available in four clicks compared to 40 hours. It

used to take me probably literally a week or two to like figure out what my projections for the next year could be.

With Serious Analytics, I got it done in an afternoon. So it's like AI for your

an afternoon. So it's like AI for your business knowledge. And if you want to

business knowledge. And if you want to check out Sarah Analytics that is S A R A S and see how daily precise data can transform your profitability.

Then there is like tactical things which is the things that got me to where I am.

Like I'm a brand I've built to like 10 million, 15 million, 20 million purely on like influencer or Facebook ads or something and I'm just those tactics are just no longer working like they used

to. They're getting inefficient. I can't

to. They're getting inefficient. I can't

spend a dollar, get a get x return. So I

think I'm saying all this because probably the hardest thing to do as a operating team is the diagnostic work that tells you why growth has stalled.

>> [snorts] >> Yeah. Well, I I want to keep talking

>> Yeah. Well, I I want to keep talking about the the Growth Starling bit because of tactics. Um yeah, we Jordan from Instant Hydration is a great friend of the brand uh of the Operators

podcast. We got an episode with him. Um

podcast. We got an episode with him. Um

and he talks about this concept of like natural CAC. So, Instant Hydration is

natural CAC. So, Instant Hydration is the fastest growing hydration brand I've ever seen. In 11 months, let's call it

ever seen. In 11 months, let's call it nine figures in revenue. Just incredible

incredible growth that I've verified.

I've seen I've seen everything. He's a

real brand and the raps are killing it.

>> Um, >> and he he was the growth team at Rise Superfoods, which is mushroom coffee, and he was the growth team at Everyday

Dose through.

>> So, he explains like how he got through like figuring that out. And he's like, he talks about this natural CAC on the platform >> that Facebook wants $50 for a subscriber. And

subscriber. And >> he's like, everyone focuses on trying to drive the cost of CAC down. And he's

like, "You're fighting against the algorithm." Like, "No, Facebook wants 50

algorithm." Like, "No, Facebook wants 50 bucks for that customer." And like, "You're trying angles and everything to get a lower CAC." And he's like, "You actually need to switch the script and be like, how do I give them a higher

CAC? How do I change my business to

CAC? How do I change my business to tolerate a higher CAC, right? Because

he's like, look, at a higher CAC, I can just scale more. My business can be three times as big. So, there's more nominal dollars coming in." All this to say is he's thinking about it like he is a block of jelly. And a lot of brands

think about it like they're a block of concrete. They're immovable. They're

concrete. They're immovable. They're

unwilling to change who they are. But

Jordan Jordan's like, I just want to win.

>> So, and that's the thing. It's like when you're stuck at 15 million, you're you're the concrete. You're not changing your business to what what the responsive forces are going to be, which is really hard and scary to say. So when

I say change your business, I'm talking about firing people, changing your product, changing your offer, changing your prices, like doing the things >> go to market in general. Like you like I've had to flip that on its head in

companies I've invested in or owned.

Like we're just in the wrong place. We

we we're selling the right thing in the wrong damn set of channels. Like throw

them away, start over.

>> Um that was the Danny lesson, right? Is

like the pivoting and moving and being super malleable is like really important.

>> Yeah, bro. You you you gota you got to be jelly. You just got to roll with the

be jelly. You just got to roll with the punches. You got to know that all a

punches. You got to know that all a bunch of stuff about your business probably has to change. Um, and you you're not big enough to deserve to be immalleable. You know what

I mean? You're not uh you're not

I mean? You're not uh you're not Walmart. It's like you got to just Yeah.

Walmart. It's like you got to just Yeah.

>> You got to be nimble.

>> Do you know the the thing I'm I've been I use often in my company is like this rules of the game analogy. So like right now I'll give you a good example. So for

Pilase, I look at the TAM of mobile accessories and I'm like our business could be a half a billion dollar a year business

because the TAM is there just in case.

Now we're not there because and and this is my assessment. It's a brutal assessment of my own company. We're not

there because we don't like the rules of the games being played. So we've just opted not to play them, right? And a

good example of that would have been like phone case in uh mobile carriers.

You're you uh Sean Bridge is like new to the case industry, but you're going to figure this out if you talk to the carriers in the US. The history of the carriers is like for a long time they

were the best place in the world to sell mobile accessories.

Then the industry got bloated and this thing called return rights came in. So,

and which is just the rules of the game.

Like, if you wanted to sell your product in a Verizon or an AT&T or T-Mobile, the way that they would do those deals is they would look at you and say like, "Yeah, I'll buy your stuff and I'll sell it, but anything I don't sell, I'm going

to return to you." And they would just overby so that they would never not have product. Well, five, six years ago, I

product. Well, five, six years ago, I looked at that and I'm like, I hate the rules of this game. I'm just not going to sell on those channels. But I'm

giving up like 70% of the TAM by not being in those channels. Now, the rules change over time and now we're entering those channels. I'm doing the same thing

those channels. I'm doing the same thing right now with Amazon, Sean. I'm looking

at my team, but I'm like, we should have a huge Amazon business. We don't do it because we don't like the rules. We

don't like that to be on Amazon, I probably can't do it with my brand. I

got to do it with another one because the price point needs to be dramatically lower. We don't like that it's a lower

lower. We don't like that it's a lower margin business with higher volume. But

the rules are the rules. Like just like CAC on Facebook that you're talking about. Like that's just the rule. So if

about. Like that's just the rule. So if

you want to win, accept it and play by them or just shut the up and or change your game entirely.

>> Yeah, dude. And you can try breaking the rules. You can try forcing your way

rules. You can try forcing your way around it, but like eventually you have to give into market forces, which is like the rules are going to win.

Mike and I uh we did a Titans episode's gonna come out with um the Utopia deals guy Jibron and he's just like a master of this, right? It's a huge business dude. Like

right? It's a huge business dude. Like

he's they're going to get to a billion dollars in revenue. Like he's the largest privatelyowned Amazon seller in the world. Like the only people bigger

the world. Like the only people bigger than him are public companies. Uh the

lesson I took away from him, I didn't actually say this in the show, so I'm gonna say it now, is like this guy is just masterfully looking at the board and he's like, "Okay, well, like here's how the game is played. I'm just going

to play it to the absolute extreme. Like

these are the variables I can control and I'm just going to do that at the at a at a massive level because I'm okay with those rules and most people aren't."

aren't." >> Yeah. Okay. So, it's like it's it's it's

>> Yeah. Okay. So, it's like it's it's it's game IQ. It's it's being a perceiver,

game IQ. It's it's being a perceiver, right? So being able to step outside of

right? So being able to step outside of your business and and really look down at your life and the tools and everything going on and being like, "What am I doing that's not optimal?"

It's why R Wayne Wayne Gretzky, despite being 5'7 and 12 pounds, was the world's greatest hockey player. He knew exactly how the game was played >> to to a perfect tea, right?

>> Well, it sounds like Jordan's doing the same with Instant Hydration. It's like

he just understands the rules of the game and he's like, "I'm okay with that.

I'll adjust my business to fit them."

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I I I would want everyone here to to really try to perceive those things. I'm going to give you my second practical example of this happening.

>> We've changed Rich a bunch. Like 2021,

we had an existential crisis because I didn't think the wallet business could grow anymore. I think we probably did 75

grow anymore. I think we probably did 75 million just in wallet sales in 2021.

And I'm like, guys, I'm looking around, there's nobody else. Like [laughter]

I'm like >> humans.

>> Yeah. I'm like, yeah. I think that that year we sold like close to a million wallets in America and I'm like guys I'm like I'm we're crossing off whole cities of people at this point. Like we're

getting every person on earth. I'm like

we can't grow anymore. We have to we have to try different things. And the

wallet business has not been the growth engine for Ridge for a very long time, right? Like we're crushing it because

right? Like we're crushing it because I've totally changed what my business is, right? I have five different

is, right? I have five different business units inside of Ridge right now and I run them like how Yum Brands runs Taco Bell and Pizza Hut and all these other things. you have one thing that's

other things. you have one thing that's always killing it. You have a couple things doing okay and you have one thing bombing and like you just kind of rotate that out. It's a it's a hedge effect

that out. It's a it's a hedge effect inside your own business. So that is the practical effect. I'm I took my own

practical effect. I'm I took my own advice. That's the reason I get a

advice. That's the reason I get a podcast. Dude, that's a great one. It's

podcast. Dude, that's a great one. It's

uh yeah, sometimes the you're just up against a category in a market issue. Um

I actually I I I'm of the opinion I think most growth issues like most growth problems are product market or category problems they're very rarely

are they tactical like uh platform problems. So like you use the example of instant hydration with meta and CAC.

I find that actually to be more rare where like you're not growing because you're just unwilling to pay the price anymore, right? right? Like there's lots of other

right? right? Like there's lots of other moves for you to make and you can like leave. So like basically, you know,

leave. So like basically, you know, tactics within a thing that you're doing is sometimes it's more often than not not the case that you're not growing if that makes sense. Like it's not like you

just you only get so much out of metads before you have to start moving to other channels. Like I think that's just true.

channels. Like I think that's just true.

All right, folks. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Northbeam, the marketing attribution platform that every smart performance team should be using. Northbeam just

dropped something gamechanging. It's

called clicks plus deterministic views.

The world's first deterministic view through attribution model. Well, why

does that matter? Well, because

traditional one-day click attribution is completely skewed towards bottom offunnel campaigns. It's like giving all

offunnel campaigns. It's like giving all the credit to the player who makes the last shot and ignoring everyone who passed the ball to get there. You know

the story. Your Tik Tok and CTV ads are building awareness, driving engagement, lifting overall revenue across every channel, but your dashboard says they're doing nothing. Meanwhile, Google Ads

doing nothing. Meanwhile, Google Ads looks like a hero because that's where people click last. That's the clickon trap and it's one of the biggest myths in performance marketing. It creates a

vicious cycle where you cut top of funnel spend, your awareness dries up, and performance tanks. North Beam's new model fixes that. Clicks plus

deterministic views actually shows you which ad impressions drove conversions, not guesses, not modeled correlations, verified data. They pull direct

verified data. They pull direct impression level data from meta, Tik Tok, Snap, Pinterest, and CTV and match it deterministically using real

identifiers, order IDs, hashed emails, login, not cookies, or fuzzy logic. It's

precise, transparent, and built to close the gap between awareness and conversion. You'll finally see those

conversion. You'll finally see those mystery revenue spikes tied back to upper level funnel campaigns that actually deserve the credit. That's the

Northbeam edge. Clarity, accuracy, and confidence in your budget decisions.

You'll know which channels are really moving the needle and which ones are just taking the credit. And yeah, the biggest brands are already using it.

Manscaped, Dollar Shave Club, Hexclad, Gruns, and many more. So, if you want to see what real deterministic view attribution looks like, go to northbeam.io/demo

northbeam.io/demo to book a demo and tell them that we sent you. Because if you're still flying

sent you. Because if you're still flying blind on clicks only, you're missing the full picture.

>> Let me ask you this then, Sean. Or or I guess like number one, where do you want to go with this next? Because I got ideas.

>> No, take it, bro. I'm looking I'm looking at the agenda, but let's let's go off the cuff.

>> No, no. So, let's just like let's follow this. So, like you I think one of the

this. So, like you I think one of the things that I'd love to understand more from you is like this idea. I saw that you wrote down in in our agenda. It's like the

hardest thing is that when something was working and then for some reason it just stops, right? So like let's just say for forget

right? So like let's just say for forget the okay, I'm I'm advertising on Meta, I'm getting a certain amount of results.

I'm not just not I'm not just stalled now. It's just not working anymore.

now. It's just not working anymore.

Like the the rules that I the things that I've been doing, they're just not working anymore. What do you do then?

working anymore. What do you do then?

Like how do you look at that?

>> Yeah. And that's the toughest situation, right? Especially if you can't diagnose

right? Especially if you can't diagnose it quickly and you're like just things stopped working, right? Um this happened a lot with SEO brands. Like if you're if you're a heavily dependent SEO brand, a new update happens and you're like, I

don't know why, but all my organic traffic has stopped showing up, right?

Um and a lot of it is we really are all just riding different waves. And it's like sometimes the waves

waves. And it's like sometimes the waves crash out. Um,

crash out. Um, >> and that is why it this is okay if that happens to you, we'll try to figure out some advice to you later on the episode, but like this is why you need to be diversified. This is like the whole

diversified. This is like the whole argument to be omni channel. It's the

whole argument to have multiple product lines is that at some point something always stalls out, right? Um, if you were I mean I think the one of the most memorable examples of this is there was

a bunch of media companies who were built on Facebook traffic to their media platform, >> right? Great example. Y

>> right? Great example. Y

>> you remember this, right? And then one day Facebook decides to turn that off.

They just they just turned it off one day and >> and they were big companies. These were

not small ones. Like that was like Buzzfeed right at its heyday was was one of those companies.

>> Buzzfeed, Huffpuffs. I mean the whole millennial wave of like content engines on websites. And then Meta's like,

on websites. And then Meta's like, "Okay, let's just do it on our own platform." And they turned off

platform." And they turned off [laughter] one switch and [snorts] it killed hundreds of businesses, right?

Um, now Meta is not evil for doing that, right? It's you you built your business

right? It's you you built your business on someone else's land, but all of us do that. It's it's it's all it's a

that. It's it's it's all it's a feudalist system, dude. We're all

building on each other's stuff. Uh, so

yeah, it's going to happen. The best thing you can do is be diversified to to hedge against it. Do you So on that then what

against it. Do you So on that then what I'm hearing you say is you should assume that you're going to stall out and that

you should be making moves now on the assumption that what you're doing will not work for much longer.

>> Dude, only >> so like basically operate paranoid.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Only the paranoid survive.

Um and I was some of I've done this by my whole life and I've left a lot of money on the table by doing this. So the

counter is I diversified away from Facebook ads very early. I was doing influencer ads and podcast ads and YouTube and all this type of stuff in 2016. In retrospect, I would have made

2016. In retrospect, I would have made way more money just scaling Facebook until 2021, right? But I didn't do it and I diversified really fast. And maybe

my business is half the size that it should be if I just went all out on Facebook. But every year there was a 5%

Facebook. But every year there was a 5% chance I went out of business by not diversifying. And it's like you never

diversifying. And it's like you never take into account the counter risk, right? So that's that's that's why we

right? So that's that's that's why we did it. We just diversified. At some

did it. We just diversified. At some

point, Facebook could have just been like, "We actually want $5 a click." And

if it was my only thing I had going on, it could have totally me.

>> Yeah. It's the what you're what you're hitting on is the most common I think one of the most if not the most common piece of advice in business is focus.

Like don't get distracted. Just like

you've got something that's working. Go

deeper, deeper, deeper. It's the inch wide and a mile deep thing versus a you know uh what is a mile wide and an inch deep. But the counter to that is in

deep. But the counter to that is in consumer you are exposed um like most brands don't own their own distribution like we do not reach our own customers. We are renting

own customers. We are renting distribution whether it's from Facebook, Google, uh Target, Walmart, like Costco.

Like we're always renting distribution.

So, what I'm hearing you say is it's the trade is worth it.

Like the a little bit of diversification, like layering it in over time is worth the sacrifice of focus because you get diversification.

>> Totally, dude. Um,

and you know, I was just trying to think I I don't think any brand at any scale owns a distribution unless you're Walmart [laughter] or whatever. It's

like all all of us really are just we're along for the ride and >> the the more down to try new things, experiment, like just I think the higher

chance of success and that is that is what the the diversity ends up being.

>> Is it a good thing? Is it ever a good thing that a business stops growing?

>> Okay.

>> Like do should you be okay just taking a beat?

>> Yeah. Look, if your business is evil, like if you sell >> [laughter] >> fentanyl or whatever, I would love for your business to stop growing. Um, you

know, this is one of the things I have in here. Um,

here. Um, if I ran a service business and my service business stopped growing, so let's say I I'm a roofer. I sell I sell roofs to people, okay? And for some

reason my business isn't growing anymore. What would you do? This this is

anymore. What would you do? This this is almost like a child test. It's like

>> I would try to get new customers. Okay.

I And then if that didn't work, I would find new things to sell. Maybe I don't do roofing anymore. Maybe I also do gutters and I do whatever, right? I

would expand the services and I would expand uh like trying to the customer base. The third thing is I would try to

base. The third thing is I would try to go do roofs in a different town. I be

like, "Okay, I did all the roofs in my town. I'm going to try to do the roofs

town. I'm going to try to do the roofs in the next town over." Think about that. Everyone knows that innately. If

that. Everyone knows that innately. If

you had a service business, those are things you would try to expand. I never

see brands do this. I never see product companies do the same thing. It's the

exact same type of problem. Oh, I'm not growing. I should try to sell to new

growing. I should try to sell to new people. Okay? If that doesn't work, I

people. Okay? If that doesn't work, I should try to sell the people who already buy from me something else.

Right? And if that doesn't work, maybe I should try to sell somewhere else.

Right? Those the three levers, people, product, place. It's like that's what

product, place. It's like that's what you need to focus on. Now,

>> if you're not grow your question was, hey, you're not growing. Is that

necessarily a bad thing? And that's what it goes back to the first thing. Define

winning. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. Like not growing could be good if

thing. Like not growing could be good if you're at the state of your business in life where you don't want to grow anymore. But by choosing to not grow,

anymore. But by choosing to not grow, you probably have to change the economics of your business. Meaning you

probably got to fire a bunch of people and cut a bunch of costs. Um

>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Because you were likely while you were growing, you were probably investing ahead of the curve, >> right? So you've probably got people on

>> right? So you've probably got people on the team that are for future revenue, not for today. Um, you know, I I sometimes wonder if the if the stall out

is the forcing function that a lot of companies need to be more reflective because I think one of the downsides to fast growth and I've been a victim of this is like you

you're just trying to hang on for dear life when you're growing really fast.

you're not paying attention to a lot of like the really nitty-gritty fundamentals that you would if you were going a little slower and you were like having a chance to refine the machine on the way up. You know, we we experienced

this with Lomi like we went way too damn fast, right? Like it was like zero to

fast, right? Like it was like zero to 100 million in 18 months. It was just stupid. Uh and we made so many mistakes

stupid. Uh and we made so many mistakes because of the speed and then we stalled out and then we had to shrink the business. But all that was like net net a good thing. like now we

have a better product and our subscription like our net revenue retention after a year is better like all the other metrics are healthy. we

just had to like sacrifice the ego of oh I have to shrink this company to actually get like to a much healthier place right so like that part was hard so I think there is an argument that

like sometimes uh super fast growth is just going to mask a whole bunch of things that are going to come back at some point and that the stall out is actually your chance to reflect and figure out what

what needs to be built better like what needs to be fixed.

>> Yeah. Look. And if you only like your business when it's growing and you don't like your business when it's shrinking, it's like maybe Yeah. Maybe you don't like your business.

>> That's good.

>> Yeah, that's really good.

>> I'm about to name the greatest Shopify brands of all time. Ridge, Hexclad, True Classic, Dr. Squatch, Port Leather Goods, Princess Poly, Kitch, Pit Fipers,

and hundreds more. What do these brands have in common? They're all using Revo, the number one retention, accounts, loyalty memberships referrals

cashback, everything app on Shopify.

What makes Revo so special? It's because

they're bootstrapped. It's the next generation of SAS, and Stuart is hands-on. He will be in Slack with you

hands-on. He will be in Slack with you helping you achieve all of your goals.

They are the number one accounts platform, loyalty platform, membership platform, referral platform, cashback platform, and more. They're bringing all of those tools to Shopify for one easy

low price. I've been using them for over

low price. I've been using them for over 24 months. And there's a bonus free

24 months. And there's a bonus free offer for everybody forever. They've

just launched wallet passes and it's a brand new product that's free for everybody forever on Shopify Plus. What

is wallet passes? You know when you go to like a sports game and like you can double click and there's like tickets, right? They brought that as a feature

right? They brought that as a feature for everybody. I am a Revo stand. I've

for everybody. I am a Revo stand. I've

been a Revo stand. They helped us run the best sweepstakes ever back in 2023.

Revo is modern. They are quick. They are

fast. And they're trying to cram value into this this Shopify app. I endorse

them. I love them. Check it out. Revo, I

love you. You're a great sponsor. You're

a great tool. You're my best friend.

Talk to you guys later. Goodbye.

>> Why do you think product companies treat this differently? Like if you're an

this differently? Like if you're an agency, that's a great thing. like when

my I owned my agency and we started to notice like oh sh like this is it's difficult to grow the thing that we're doing right now uh how do we actually like build it bigger we went wider in

the services we offered and I don't know if that like there was a trade-off there for sure um we probably could have just gone deeper and figured out more markets and like there's other ways to expand

why do product companies feel like they're a little less I guess comfortable with this, >> dude? I don't know. It's It's the

>> dude? I don't know. It's It's the biggest push back I get from brands all the time. I'm like, "You should sell

the time. I'm like, "You should sell different stuff." And they're like like

different stuff." And they're like like they treat it like they're like, "No, I've invented the the holy grail." It's

like, "This is what this is what people want." Maybe it's because it's harder.

want." Maybe it's because it's harder.

It's more risky. Because it's like, "Look, in service businesses, I'm like, "Yeah, we do Facebook ads. Hey, we're

doing Google ads now. Why hire one guy?

I'm like, yeah, he does Google ads, so I'm gonna go sell Google ads, right? And

if it doesn't work, okay, that guy's fired and I I sell actually Tabula ads now or whatever, right?" Um

>> yeah in product business your product development costs can sometimes be quite expensive um >> sometimes not but often it is right

often it's like really risky to to try a new product >> and go to market's hard you have to spend money the whole thing so I think I think maybe that's it they're like they're worried about um the the cost

associated they also feel like they're they're worried about diluting the brand or whatever and I always point to them like name a company they started Ed selling one thing. Now they sell a lot of stuff. It's like

of stuff. It's like >> I'm like, >> yeah, the the original Macintosh computers to iPhones and Apple TV Plus subscriptions where they they make shows now. I'm like those

now. I'm like those >> dude. Look at like every luxury brand.

>> dude. Look at like every luxury brand.

Every freaking one. Like you listen look at the history of them. It's like Hermes started off selling like horse accessories, >> bro. It's so funny you said that. That

>> bro. It's so funny you said that. That

was the exact example I had in my head.

I always think I'm like, "Yeah, they they they sold riding gear and now they're selling luxury scarves. They

have nothing in common.

>> Yeah. And and I think that that's actually like uh I like those I like those companies because they've actually had to shift with like society, you

know, like they saw like the change from nobody rides a horse anymore. Guess we

need to make somebody for people with a car. Um whereas like most of us now

car. Um whereas like most of us now we're shifting. I think our businesses

we're shifting. I think our businesses have to pivot around channels and go to market and a little less like societal, you know. Um, I might have to pivot at

you know. Um, I might have to pivot at some point here with Pil Casease where like people might just not buy phones anymore.

>> Like that's a that's a real threat at some point in the future is like, oh, the smartphone is just a stupid form factor for technology, you know, 10 or 15 years from now. I guess we're doing

something else. So, and that probably

something else. So, and that probably speaks to the paranoid thing. I'm

already thinking of that. It's like what what is other crap that I need to like start developing to to build this brand over a long time? Um, yeah, you're right though. Like when I talk to founder

though. Like when I talk to founder Sean, it's often a big push back the like I can't develop like why my brand can't have other products is is the argument I

get so often.

>> Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up luxury brands because you know Tiffany's went bankrupt twice. [laughter]

bankrupt twice. [laughter] It's like I mean you know they they got bought for $20 billion. They're like

they're you know the most prestigious uh jewelry brand of all time. Dude, in the 70s they were trying to give away. It's

like nobody wanted it. It's like you you go through these these es and flows as a brand. Uh Goyard, which is like arguably

brand. Uh Goyard, which is like arguably the most desirable leather goods brand of the past 20 years. They were they were bankrupt in

years. They were they were bankrupt in the 90s, dude. Like a guy bought >> insane.

>> Like [laughter] Yeah. [gasps] It's like it's just it's what happens. It's really

hard to be it's really hard to grow forever. Okay.

It's really hard to be cool forever.

It's really hard to be on top forever.

Like all of these things, um it's like nearly an impossible game. So like if you're going to be doing it, uh change change is the constant factor they should count on every single year. The g

the rules will change every single year.

>> You know, it's uh what you're speaking to is the dynam it's like why consumer companies are also not as valuable as other categories. Um I saw you and Matab

other categories. Um I saw you and Matab going at this on X this week. Uh, dude,

do you notice I've actually I'm starting to say X on a completely different topic.

>> I'm no longer saying Twitter.

>> I'm like, holy, it's working. The

rebrand is it's actually like >> it's burrowing into my brain that I'm now saying X. But I saw you guys post this about like the quality of revenue

in a consumer company is much lower than a even an agency that services consumer companies because the agency's revenue number one it's going to be contracted

in some way but number two there's less question marks about like what drives their business. there's always going to

their business. there's always going to be another brand, another product company that's hitting its upswing.

Whereas, if you're the brand, there's going to be questions about like how trendy is this? Is the consumer going to buy this forever? You know, like is this one of those sticky product categories

that like are you selling Coca-Cola or are you selling like the Segway the the little rolling machine that nobody used after four months? you know, so consumer

is so fickle that I think your comment on it's always changing and is is actually like the most important one for people to take away. Like if you've

stopped growing, one of the things that may have happened is you're no longer solving a problem that the broader consumer wants or needs solved, you know, or like they just don't care. It's

like you're just not cool if you were a lifestyle product. [snorts]

lifestyle product. [snorts] >> Yeah, totally. And let's talk let's really break down the the advantages of a service business. And and here's another example. Stanley Stanley was

another example. Stanley Stanley was doing $70 million a year. In I think three years they got to $750 million in revenue.

>> Yeah.

>> Everyone wanted to be Stanley those three years. Everyone talk about how

three years. Everyone talk about how cool they were. They were on billboards.

The whole thing.

>> Now this is two years after. Now nobody

wants to be Stanley. Stanley [snorts]

had to go through a 50% revenue decline.

They had to fire people. It's painful.

It hurts the whole thing. But

>> the the thing is people did Stanley's ad campaigns that agency, they still get a ton of business.

>> Yeah.

>> Like they had business before, they had business during, they got more business because they worked with Stanley and now they're working on other accounts, right? Like if they get fired from

right? Like if they get fired from Stanley, whatever, there's there's more B2B. That's what you're saying is that

B2B. That's what you're saying is that the predictability of revenue. So

Stanley right now is is it's an IBA trading business of probably 5x because they just they're like you just had a 50% revenue decline. We don't know what this business is going to look like.

Maybe they get 6x, maybe they get 7x, right? But the service business is

right? But the service business is probably always a steady 6x in there.

It's like it doesn't have these es and flows in the same way because of the predictability of revenue.

>> Yeah. It's uh one of the things that I think people would be surprised about with Apple is how big their B2B business is.

So like even the you know like who's buying iPhones? It's like a lot of

buying iPhones? It's like a lot of companies buy iPhones. It's not just like consumer preference. It's quite

literally like a like a bank is going to buy 50,000 iPhones over the next whatever 12 months. So I think there's a

if you're a product company I think you really got to think about let me say let me back up. If you're

going to be in consumer, you have to realize you are a product company.

You're not just you're a product company, a brand. You need to actually build a good product development muscle in the business. You can't just be a

killer Facebook ads funnel guy and expect that to last a long time. That's

like the riskiest position to be in is is when I see a brand, it's like crushing it 0 to $50 million. I'm like,

there's no new products and you're just running on one channel. I'm like, you are the most fragile thing in the ecosystem because too many things can change out of your control that kills you. Like

just nukes your your company. So like

you have to build product development muscle is probably number one. Uh and

then that's going to allow you to enter more markets and more channels and talk to different types of people which is then going to get you the diversification >> food. I mean, it's all fantastic advice.

>> food. I mean, it's all fantastic advice.

So, this is this is what this is what people need to be doing. And you and I both have service background. So, I think it's easy for us to understand. You you

have an amazing product development team in cycle. And you're always flexing

in cycle. And you're always flexing that. And it's like you got to sell to

that. And it's like you got to sell to more people. You have to sell more

more people. You have to sell more places or you got to sell more products.

It's like that's that's how you grow as a business. And it doesn't matter if

a business. And it doesn't matter if you're Apple getting into iPods. It

doesn't matter if you're Hermes getting out of saddles. Like that's that's the solution. You know what what you are

solution. You know what what you are hitting though on is dude like even culturally in my company I have people who have allergic reactions to like adding more product sometimes they're

like does that fit the brand they like everybody has an opinion on like does a product fit the brand which is valid like you should come up with some kind of like set of rules for like Ridge

isn't going to turn around and start selling lettuce like that doesn't work Right.

So, you there should be like there's obvious things that you shouldn't make, but I I don't know if you've had this experience, man. I we are finding

experience, man. I we are finding product categories that are like real debates here. It's like does this and

debates here. It's like does this and people get really passionate about like we can't we can't possibly release that.

>> And I'm like, well, why not, you know, like goes with the other we sell.

>> Yeah.

>> But they get they get crazy about it.

>> Yeah. We fought a million times internally overage. It's we we we call

internally overage. It's we we we call it the the the product brand aperture.

It's like how big is your aperture, right? Like how much how much light are

right? Like how much how much light are you willing to let in? Uh and mine is bigger than everybody's. That's what it comes down to. I'm like, "Yeah, I'm like, we're doing deodorant. We're doing

t-shirts. We're doing bar soap." I'm

like, "Yeah, name a thing. I'm going to try to sell it because you said lettuce." And I'm like, "Well, let me

lettuce." And I'm like, "Well, let me think about that. What do I sell lettuce?" I'm like, "That's [laughter]

lettuce?" I'm like, "That's [laughter] good."

good." >> Okay, I got to take a break and tell you a quick story from a few weeks ago. We

were at E-commerce Fuel Live. This is

Andrew's live event that he does once a year. It's like 200 brands. They do a

year. It's like 200 brands. They do a great job. And this story is just too

great job. And this story is just too good not to share, so like bear with me while I tell it. And I'm at the opening night party. I'm talking with Amit, CEO

night party. I'm talking with Amit, CEO of Rich Panel, one of the great sponsors of this podcast. And Ahmed and I are having a good chat. And beside me walks in, Katie, to say hi to Amit. And Amit

looks up and I swear to God this is true. He goes, "Hey, Matt, is this your

true. He goes, "Hey, Matt, is this your EA?" And before I could react, Katie

EA?" And before I could react, Katie absolutely dares him a new one and says, "I am not Matt's EI. Matt is my EA." So,

if you ever wanted a lesson in how to stick your foot firmly in your own mouth, this is it. Ahmed could not catch a break the rest of this event.

Deservedly so. Right. And by the end of it, I think she actually said, "I will never switch to Rich Panel unless you give me a 100% discount." Now, I know this is a strange sponsor read, but I just needed to tell the story because I

think it's kind of funny. So, I don't think Katie is going to get 100% discount, but honestly, I don't think you need it. Switching the rich panel is going to pay for itself anyway. They are

genuinely one of the best teams to work with. I mean that. We work with them at

with. I mean that. We work with them at our brands. They have more than paid for

our brands. They have more than paid for themselves in their software. So, if you want to reduce tickets by like 30% or more, save on your SAS bill, go into Black Friday without any chaos, give

Rich Panel a shot. Just go to richpanel.com/demo.

richpanel.com/demo.

And Omit, if you're listening, dude, that's just a terrible, terrible example of what you say to somebody when you meet them the first time. Oh, and Omit promised me there's actually a super

special promo code. If you use Sorry Katie, sorry K A T Y, you'll get 20% off your subscription. Give it a shot.

your subscription. Give it a shot.

Look, you also you had the foresight years ago. you what people don't might

years ago. you what people don't might not remember because memory on the internet's short is your company started off as Ridge Wallet and then you actually at some point it just became

Ridge right and I still have people that I know that think of you as Ridge Wallet like they're just that's their customers of Ridge Wallet they're still not on the whole ex

Twitter thing like they still haven't caught up to where the brand is as a consumer >> dude that's that's most customers this week we we called customers for ads. So

I I I dial them on the phone. I'm like,

"Hey, I'm Sean the CEO of Ridge." And

they're like, "What?" I'm like, "Ridge wallet? You bought a wallet from us?"

wallet? You bought a wallet from us?"

It's like [laughter] everybody, dude. It just it take it'll

everybody, dude. It just it take it'll take it'll take two decades to get there. But anyway,

there. But anyway, >> yeah, it's uh you know what it is, too?

Like I what I've experienced when revenue has stopped.

One of the things that we've like we've have absolutely experienced in our brands is our positioning. It just got boring. Like we just sort of we tapped

boring. Like we just sort of we tapped out the customers who cared about a particular position and that we needed to move to a we needed to try new messages or new positioning. You know

who did this? I think um he called it trend trend surfing was Will from I was it IQ bar that we had on >> trend surfing.

>> That's a concept that still sticks with me is like >> you constantly have to be looking at trends and then how do you line up with those trends? So like for him he did it

those trends? So like for him he did it with products and like actual ingredients and function in his product.

We've done the same thing. Like one of the things that we tapped into in the last 12 months with with Pilicase was we were always our positioning was always environmentally friendly, sustainable,

all that stuff. Well, the last 12 months what we figured out is people started to really care about microplastics and their health and like I sell like the only thing that doesn't have any. So

that became a a new piece of positioning, a new trend. same product,

didn't change the product at all, but like the consumer shifted or like a whole new type of, you know, consumer problem showed up and that we were in the right position to actually take

advantage of it and we weren't precious about it. We're like, no, no, no, we can

about it. We're like, no, no, no, we can ride this trend or the local manufacturing thing this year, right?

Like that became topical. We're in a position to take advantage of the trend.

So I think if you're not in the spot as a brand to build new products like right now like you you don't have a product on the ready to go it's like wallet stalled

out rings are nowhere near ready right what do you do it's like well you have to work with what you have and then that's just going to be like we got to figure out how to sell the same thing to a different type of person now and like

what else what's going on in the world is probably the best place to start is like do we fit anywhere else Like maybe grandmas like Ridge wallets cuz they're indestructible

or something. I don't know.

or something. I don't know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It goes on to to the people piece. But let's buck it up this advice

piece. But let's buck it up this advice to these customers, right? Uh all of our listeners, all of our great great operators, fans. This show is about this

operators, fans. This show is about this episode's about it's okay to not grow all the time. You should define what winning looks like for you, right? It

does not have to be topline. That is the laziest like horsepower type number.

It's like what? Give me the give me the bigger number. I want the company to be

bigger number. I want the company to be bigger. It can winning can look like a

bigger. It can winning can look like a lot of different ways, right? Two, your

business probably has a natural size.

Um, and if you want to exceed the natural size, you have to start doing extraordinary things, right? Uh, three,

look at your business like it was a service business. You should expand

service business. You should expand places you sell, people you sell to, the types of things you sell. Um, number

four, you you do number four, Matt. We

we'll go back and forth on these. What

are some other things people should learn?

>> Okay. So, like number four, there's an uncomfortable truth in in consumer that like sometimes the answer is your brand was a good idea for the moment or the product was a good idea for the moment, but the market shifted

and that you need to shift with it.

>> Totally. I think that's a good one. I

would say number five is if you're going to reassess the future of your business, it's better to be more drastic than less. I think you should be like Annie

less. I think you should be like Annie from IM8. You should you should do the

from IM8. You should you should do the deepest cuts. You should you should get

deepest cuts. You should you should get down to war mode >> and then start building it back up, right? Um you don't want to be one of

right? Um you don't want to be one of these slow death companies, all birds in the public market. You that is >> if you're going to fail, fail fast. if

if you're going to move, you know, move with purpose. Um, don't just kind of

with purpose. Um, don't just kind of >> Yeah.

>> stutter.

>> Yeah, I think that's really good advice.

I think uh I think the operate paranoid thing goes hand inhand with that. Like

if you're you should have some some vision for the brand. Um, I know that's really hard to do if you're listening and you're like in the 0 to10 million, 0

to$20 million range, cuz I remember those days. uh it's very difficult to think beyond like how do I just make the thing I have work at

bigger scale but I'm I can like guarantee you that if you take the time now to think about the next product and the next product and like how is this brand going to evolve

over time and you can start investing in product instead of just plowing all your money back into marketing that is going to pay off over time like you're going to have a company that is more resilient

is more sustainable >> dude for Sure. And

this is a bonus one. If you ever have the chance to take money that changes your life, you should try to change your life. You deserve to change your life.

life. You deserve to change your life.

>> Yeah.

>> Don't Don't be holding a million dollar bill and be like, "Yeah, but I really want $10 million.

>> If you have no money, take the million dollar bill."

dollar bill." >> Oh my god. And especially if you're young, dude. Like, how many people I

young, dude. Like, how many people I mean, I know so many people who are like under 30 years old. They get offered a like a price for their business and they just emotionally feel like it's worth so

much more. And I'm like, but you're 27

much more. And I'm like, but you're 27 years old and somebody's going to give you like two or three million and you don't have that. I don't I cannot stress how much that changes everything about

how you move through the world as a human.

>> It gets so much better. If someone

offers you life-changing money and it could actually change your life, you deserve to change your life. That's the

thing. If you have if you have $30 million, someone offers you 15, >> it already Yeah. Yeah. It It doesn't help.

>> Like um but really when you have nothing, I I was 25 living in cockroachinfested apartments and dude now I now I don't have to do that.

Life's awesome. So anyway,

>> dude, Sean Sean, I never I was never in that position. Like I've never been in a

that position. Like I've never been in a position in my life where like money was a real question and lucky like I just grew up in a good family and like just

everything kind of worked. But I can still tell you that like the first few million bucks, the first million, two, three is like actually life-changing. It

just all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, my risk tolerance now is much higher."

Like I don't have to worry about my house. Like that's just a a whole

house. Like that's just a a whole different shift.

>> Yeah. I can eat any sandwich I want. It

doesn't m any store that sells a sandwich. I could buy it. Don't even

sandwich. I could buy it. Don't even

think about it, dude.

>> Yes. And that like that's a little thing, but it's actually like cuz ultimately now too, I can tell you this like I have a uh I don't know if you get

this way with Ridge, but I sometimes still get stressed out about the business. like I'll actually get like

business. like I'll actually get like I'll feel stress and it what I've noticed is over time that I don't feel it for as long of a period anymore. So

like now it'll be like I get stressed in the day and then by evening I roll around I'm like oh but this doesn't really matter. Like I'll get to that

really matter. Like I'll get to that place much faster. I wouldn't get there if I didn't have financial freedom and financial security. Like if I didn't

financial security. Like if I didn't have those boxes checked I would be operating scared more frequently. And I

find I don't make great decisions when I operate scared.

>> No, I'm still I'm still an emotional wreck when it come. [laughter]

So, uh, but Matt, we'll end the pod there. Hopefully, we gave some good

there. Hopefully, we gave some good advice to some people. That's our goal.

There's 20,000 brands listen to the operators podcast.

We want all of you to get 1% better every week from listening to us. And if

that doesn't happen, >> I'm sorry. I don't know. You stop.

[laughter] >> Uh, like, subscribe. We have a newsletter. We have an ecom fuel

newsletter. We have an ecom fuel partnership. Matt goes there every year

partnership. Matt goes there every year and he's high-fiving people and hugging them. It's a great forum to share what's

them. It's a great forum to share what's going on. We want to thank our all of

going on. We want to thank our all of our sponsors. So, we have 10 sponsors

our sponsors. So, we have 10 sponsors across three shows. They're all

fantastic. So, on this one, we have Fulfill, the number one sponsor, the greatest sponsor of all time. We have

Northbeam. We have Saras Analytics. We

have Rich Panel. We have Revo coming in, new sponsor. We have Postcript, old

new sponsor. We have Postcript, old sponsor. We have a bunch of great people

sponsor. We have a bunch of great people on this podcast. We have other sponsors on other podcasts. listen to those shows. Matt, send everybody off.

shows. Matt, send everybody off.

>> Dude, it's always it's always a pleasure just like jamming on this stuff. I leave

>> I don't know how people can leave these things and not get something cuz I leave and I got something. Uh and I'm the one talking sometimes. So, this is great,

talking sometimes. So, this is great, man.

>> I listen to the podcast every week. I

think it's a it's a good podcast.

[laughter] >> We like listen to yourself. It's it's

like what do I need to hear today? Like

what is like weak week old me gonna yell at me for is uh is how it works. All

right, dude. That's the pod.

>> All right.