From Idea To Impact: How Gamma Is Redefining Presentations | Grant Lee

If you don't have strong word of mouth

in your product, don't move on to the

next stage of scaling. If you don't have

that first piece and you've tricked

yourself into thinking of that first

piece, everything else is just a waste

of time. It's a waste of money. And once

you have that, then you can think about

all the things that matters. Like, okay,

what type of team do I need to build to

go after this opportunity? The best

players want a lot of playing time. They

love that ownership. They don't want to

delegate that to somebody else. They

want to be in it. We're building this

team where every single one of the A

players wants to play the game. Sam

Alman and others have talked about how

they think you can build a billion

trillion dollar company with one person.

>> I think it's a great headline. I don't

believe that that's going to happen

anytime soon. And I also don't believe

you want it to happen. I think part of

building something special in enduring

business is doing it with a team.

Welcome to Grit. I'm Jubin, partner at

Kleiner Perkins, a show where we go

beyond the highlight reel and explore

the personal and professional challenges

of building history-making companies.

Today on the show, we have Grant Lee,

co-founder and CEO of Gamma, the AI

presentation tool that's aiming to kill

PowerPoint. Grant thinks about

everything differently. And one of the

reasons I was so excited to have him on

the show is because he thinks about

company building in a very unique AI

native way. I'm fascinated to see how

it'll play out. Enjoy the episode. By

the way, I just roll, just so you know.

Like, I just roll. Okay, cool. The hard

work has gone crazy in Silicon Valley

right now.

>> 100%.

>> And I think the spirit of it is right,

which is like in 2021, 2022, we like

kind of lost our minds and tricked

ourselves into thinking that like

companies are not willed into existence,

>> right?

>> And we should be flexible about

everything. People should live

everywhere, you know? It's like

whatever, right? like this crazy amount

of flexibility.

>> Totally.

>> Now I feel like we've whipped the other

direction swung

>> and it's not even that I'm against the

like raw hours of whatever that is 72

hours of a 996 but the way that it's

framed is so rigid in nature

>> that I find it very annoying.

>> Does that make sense? Like it's just

rigid. Like I don't know. I don't wake

up at 9.

>> I wake up way earlier. I'm also in bed

by 9. Do you know what I mean? It's the

opposite of flexibility.

>> It's just the opposite of it's like I

don't know. I just

>> I think anybody that's doing creative

work is that that becomes extra

frustrating, right? Like if you're

trying to time box like a creative

project, that just seems like the wrong

approach.

>> Yeah.

>> And you need a little bit of the okay,

you know, this hour I'm going to let

myself go a little bit deeper on this

thing because it's the right thing to

do. It's not because I have to do it.

>> Yeah.

>> But I'm enjoying doing. I'm in the flow

state. I feel like more work should be

like that, but I get the spirit of it.

is like you got to work hard especially

in this era things are moving so fast so

if you're not going to do it someone

else is going to do it

>> and so as a startup how do you keep up

right that's the mentality I think

>> it it needs to be there in some form I

think we'll have to figure out the right

packaging of it

>> if you told your team

>> how many employees do you have now

>> we have 50

>> 50

>> and you're doing like 50 million of

revenue with 50 employees or something

>> yeah more than that yeah

>> more than that okay have you crossed 100

can you say

>> we can't say we can't say

>> but like you're on your way

>> you're doing great

>> we're doing great And like you've

actually uh recently sparked I don't

know if controversy is the right word

but like you've done the small team big

revenue thing

>> quite effectively. Yeah.

>> But if you went to your 50 employees

>> tonight

>> and you were like all right here's our

policy

>> 9 to9 six days a week wouldn't they be

like dude what are you talking about?

>> Yeah. Yeah. There's there's yeah there's

no way. Well, I mean, we have had the

conversation, but our conversation has

been we know there's been, you know, AI

startups are are kind of in a few

different camps today, right? You do

have the 996 and that's maybe one

extreme and even uh you know the 996

many of those companies are saying it's

actually not 996 is way more than that

and we're using the construct of 996

because it's a familiar label now. And

then you know then there's opposite end

of the spectrum which is hey we're a

40hour work week which is a standard you

know what's known

>> we've we've kind of said that we're

we're somewhere in between. We know we

need to work hard. We're also in a space

where creativity is incredibly

important. Like we're trying to

reimagine how people visually storytell

and that doesn't and for us that means

the level of creativity does require

much more flexibility in our mind. And

so we say hey there's a baseline

expectation around 50 hours a week.

That's like a baseline and we're not

there to monitor how many hours you're

working but if you're working and you

feel like any given week you have had

that amount of output you should feel

good about it. And um and as a team we

do try to overlap as much as possible.

So I think this is also the question of

like how much should we be inerson work

because to your point before it's like

everybody had gone to remote distributed

work hybrid work and we are trying to do

much more of overlap like in person so

that you have that little bit of that

magic that serendipity

>> but like when you were five people

>> do you think that the rains started to

loosen for you? I have no idea. But like

from the 50 hours in flexibility kind of

mindset

>> when you were five people in order to

get the incremental 15th employee did

you feel like all right we cannot be how

we were when we were this tiny little

startup? It's a hard thing to So, it's

like for us when we were, you know, 12

people. Uh, we were working in a

two-bedroom converted two-bedroom

apartment. You know, we were all sitting

shoulder-to-shoulder in this tiny little

room and everybody was working all the

time. And so, there was the unspoken. I

didn't have to measure how many hours

people were working. We're working a

ton. And then gradually we started like

we've never grown that fast. So, it's

always been for us like sort of this

incrementally adding the next person. So

I don't even know if there was ever a

point where it felt like we were a

different company. It just felt like a

natural progression. And so I think

we've just kind of kept that spirit. But

then at some point it got to the point

where like we are big enough where we're

not all crammed in a two-bedroom

apartment. And so some of the unspoken

things it was helpful just to talk

through. Okay, you hear all the

headlines of 996. Are we a 996? And so

we started having those conversations.

We're a very transparent culture. So for

us it's like every week we're meeting as

a team.

>> We still have that open dialogue. And so

that's where the conversation comes like

it really became a forcing function when

you start recruiting folks and they're

asking you are you a 996 and so what is

your answer? So if I have to give an

answer to a candidate I need to have an

answer for the internal team too and so

that's actually how things progress for

us.

>> Yeah

>> that makes sense.

>> And when you say you didn't grow that

fast.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So like you started the company

four or five years ago.

>> Five years ago.

>> Five years ago. Sorry. Do you want to

just say like maybe 30 seconds? What

what does the company do?

>> Yeah. So, Gamma's building the anti-

PowerPoint for anybody that spent, you

know, late night trying to design a

slide, find the right layout, you know,

trying to tell their story visually.

Like, we're we're trying to replace that

with an experience that doesn't require

all that manual tedious work so that you

can actually, you know, tell an

impactful story in a fraction of the

time.

>> Yeah. And so, you started prel

pre all the recent AI.

>> That's right. Yes. That's right. 5 years

ago.

>> Yes.

>> And then when you say you

>> grew slowly,

>> Yeah.

>> What do you mean by that?

>> Yeah. So there's three founders, so

three of us. Uh that's end of 2020,

raised a little bit of money. And then

over the course of the next year, we

added four more teammates. So we got to

about seven. And then the year after

that, we got to uh about 15 or so. And

then the year after that um we got to

uh around 20 and then we you know this

year we started the year just a little

bit over 20 and we're approaching around

50 now.

>> Mhm.

>> So that's been over the yeah past five

years.

>> And when LLMs happened did you have to

redo the product?

>> Um yes and no. So the first couple years

we were building the core building

blocks for gamma. So you can think of

you know in present t typical

presentations you have slides as like

the primitive right slides 16 by9 we all

know it

>> you you get this blank canvas

>> for us we came up with a new notion of

we're actually going to create this

notion of a card a card can be much more

malleable it can be any size it's mobile

responsive it can also be something you

can drop in interactive elements into so

it's not static and it can be multimedia

rich so you can embed you know entire

websit sites directly into your gamma.

And so those core primitives are what we

worked on for the first couple years.

And then you know come 2023 we

recognized that we had to rebuild entire

onboarding flow new user experience by

leveraging AI. So that instead of you

know if you're a new user you imagine

going to a product like ours you're

faced with all these building blocks.

You're like what the heck is this? Well

what if instead we preassemble those

building blocks for you? That was a

starting point. So now you can kind of

play with a pre-assembled set of you

know Legos and and that makes it much

easier. That's what we used AI for in

the beginning and then over time it's

become deeply integrated into the entire

product.

>> Yeah. And so when you say slow growth,

what you're saying is slow headcount

growth.

>> Slow headcount growth. Yes.

>> Not slow revenue growth.

>> Not slow revenue. So when we So we u did

our first AI launch in March of 2023.

End of March 2023. This was pre-revenue.

We we launched the product. It had AI

entire workflow is you know onboarding

flow is different

within a month. So our free version at

the at the time was like every new user

gets a free amount of AI credits once

they burn through it. Um that was it

right and so right right after we

launched basically our support started

blowing up with how do I buy more

credits and we didn't have yet a way to

monetize yet. So with we had to

basically scramble three or four weeks

figure out pricing and packaging. Then

we started monetizing. This is like end

of May 2023. Yeah, from there on out

revenue growth has been yeah fast.

>> And one of the things that I was excited

to talk to you about is there's a lot of

talk like Sam Alman and others have

talked about how they think you can

build a what a billion trillion dollar

company with one person. What is it

billion or trillion? Billion

>> billion. Okay.

>> Maybe trillion.

>> Soon it's going to be trillion. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have AGI with

three people or whatever. Okay, great.

But in your ca and in in practice like

from everything that I have observed

within every portfolio company I have

not actually seen that

>> right

>> like I have not actually seen that when

push comes to shove

>> and you have

more customer demand than you know what

to do with right

>> that you're not hiring more CSMs account

executives if you have a bigger roadmap

than you can handle that you're not

pulling ahead headcount for engineering

and product like it's just very natural.

>> Y

>> why has that not been the case for you?

>> Yeah, I mean I I don't believe in that.

I think it's a great headline, right?

Yeah. Billion dollar oneperson startup

or whatever. It's a great sound bite. I

don't believe that that's going to

happen anytime soon. And I also don't

believe you want it to happen. I think

part of building something special in

enduring business is doing it with a

team. Like it's it's fun, right? If

you're doing something you actually

enjoy, you don't want to do it alone.

you want to do with other people that

enjoy building with you. And I think

everybody will bring a unique set of

skills. And so I do think you can build

a much leaner team, but it still

requires a team. It's not a oneman show

by any means. And so to your point, like

yeah, you start building out the go to

market team, sales, marketing, those are

different skill sets. Maybe one day a

lot of that will be replaced by AI

automation, but I guarantee it'll still

be somebody running and orchestrating

kind of the AI play the the sales

playbook or the you know how do we

actually go and reach customers and um

and so that's where what you're seeing

is I think there is a chance to be much

leaner than than you could have in the

past but it's not going to be you know

single person massive startups anytime

soon at least for my

>> and from your lived experience like how

much leaner maybe I'll I'll be very

specific about the question

>> let's imagine I assume you want to take

this company public or I don't know

maybe you maybe secretly you want to

have it be acquired by Microsoft but you

can't say that so out loud you want to

say you want to you want to go public

>> this as big as possible. Yes.

>> Yeah. Okay. So like let's just assume

public.

>> Yeah.

>> Do you have like a headcount in mind

that you think you could go public with?

Let's just imagine that the number that

you need to go public with, let's just

make up a number, is 4 500 million of

error,

>> right? Right.

>> Let's just say.

>> Yeah. at that number, what do you think

your headcount could be?

>> Yeah, I I'll give you a couple of things

that you know we think about. So like

one is just like we do have a frame of

reference, right? We many of us came

from a company called Optimizely you

know uh many years ago where uh that was

at the time one of the f when I joined

fastest growing YC company and by the

time we were at the same level of

traction as we are today at gamma you

know we were 500 employees right so

we're 10 times bigger in terms of

headcount same level of traction and and

so in and some some you know some using

that point of reference we're onetenth

the size I think the other point of

reference is we've taken that mindset so

being scrappy from the very beginning,

this is pre our AI launch, we talked

about as a company, we're going to hire

painfully slowly. Like that was what we

said. And then even after we started

growing really quickly, still the same

mindset. We're not going to just add

headcount because u you know the easy

thing to do back in the day would be you

want to start hiring sales, you hire the

VP of sales. VP of sales comes in and

builds out they bring the rolodex. They

build that entire sales function and

that's how things are done. We've always

been actually we're going to go bottoms

up where any role we have, we're going

to start with somebody that can be a

player coach. They start off as a

player. They really know how to execute

well in that function before they start

hiring anybody. And that allows you to

kind of invert like just how that

process goes in general. You don't

assume you get headcount. You actually

assume something needs to be done and

we're going to figure out how to do it.

We're going to try our best to reimagine

what the entire org can look like. I

always tell other founders is like you

know most startups think about when they

think about innovation it's like okay we

can innovate on product or innovate on

technology well you also have an

opportunity to innovate on or design you

can go in and say hey we're not going to

build teams the exact same way we're not

going to have people managers the same

way we had 10 years ago what is it going

to mean for you and I think it's up to

every startup if they want to do that to

innovate in a way that feels authentic

that that they can execute on

>> and and we've tried to run that from the

very beginning

>> yeah but does it worry you that you're

wrong. Meaning like you have

competitors.

>> Yeah.

>> And let's imagine your competitors are

subscale relative to where you are. Y

>> let's just say they're half your size.

>> But let's just say now they just took on

way more funding than you.

>> Yep.

>> And they've hired twice the amount of

engineers that you have.

>> They've hired people on the go to market

side. Let's just imagine

>> they start winning.

>> They can pull roadmap ahead faster. They

can get to distribution faster than you

can. And maybe you got too cute with it,

right? Would be the thought.

>> Totally.

>> Like could you get too cute with it in

the spirit of this principled lean

mindset?

>> Yeah,

>> absolutely. And I think that's something

that we think about, but we don't

actually even have to imagine that we

are in a space that have had startups

that have raised way more money than us,

that have teams way bigger than us, that

started before us that have now shifted,

pivoted to different, you know,

different opportunities. no longer

could have feared the same things. We

were like, "Okay, they raised a ton ton

of money with big round. We should go

raise a big round." Uh they hired their

80 employees, 100 employees, we should

go to be that big. And so that fear has

been around for forever. Uh but the

question always is like, do I believe

fundamentally if I double the size of

the team, I double the speed. And the

answer's always been no. We are super

agile, super, we are lean, but we can

move and adapt really quickly. If we

want to change strategy tomorrow, I'd

call a team meeting, we would change

directions tomorrow. And that's always

been the the ability with a with a 50

person company, you can do that. I think

if I was 10 times bigger, much harder to

move the ship.

>> That's true. But what if you doubled the

team and you increased velocity by not

100%. But like 30%.

>> Would you do that?

>> Cuz isn't that where the truth is

usually somewhere in the middle?

>> Yeah. I think what you're you're you're

getting to is like velocity is the the

question, right? Like velocity is speed

and direction. If it's just speed, I

think that's that's not the right thing

because you want to make sure you're

headed in the right direction. In this

age when everything is moving so fast,

underlying AI technology, how customers

are adop you adopting your tooling, it's

moving fast. And so you might be if you

move too fast in the wrong direction,

>> well, guess what? Then you're going to

have to rewind all of that in a few

years. And so you're better off like

being really sure about the strategy and

the direction you're headed in before

you double down on the speed notion.

>> But are you not convinced right now that

you are definitely going in the right

direction?

>> We are. Um we we do feel that but like

when you think about like a startup

going after like a space, right? So it

it often times feels like there like if

you imagine this market to be that

you're trying to penetrate as as being

like this balloon to penetrate that

market, you need this really sharp laser

focus. you need to be that needle that

can pierce through that balloon. The

moment you start spreading that across a

wider surface area, you can no longer

penetrate that market. You're hitting

this balloon with a blunt object. That's

not the right way to do it. And so, we

do feel like we're we're heading in the

right direction, but again, like the

speed thing isn't going to help us do

that any faster. It's going to actually

uh allow it actually force us to kind of

allocate those resources across a

broader set of things that may be not

important yet today, but they may be

important in the future. So, we're going

to sequence it the right way. We're

going to focus on the things that matter

most today, worry about the other stuff

later.

>> Yeah. I think what I'm really scratching

at, which I'm really fascinated by,

>> is like we are reunderwriting

all of the startup axioms that have been

true forever,

>> right?

>> Forever.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, you're on the bleeding edge of

that. And there is a fundamental

question of you know like for example

a lot of founders will come to me and

want to redo how sales compensation

works.

>> Y

>> and in my mind I'm like do not do that

like that is tried and true and I think

you're getting too cute. Yes.

>> Like this is how these people are wired.

This is what works. Now almost always

founders will try and almost always all

roads inevitably lead back to the thing

that has been true since the dawn of

company building. Does that make sense?

100%. So like small example but like if

you take that to the company level

>> right like it's just an interesting

question that I also ask myself all the

time

>> which is is every business fundamental

down to headcount

completely actually being rewritten for

the first time?

>> Yeah.

>> Like is this technology so

transformative that it is actually going

to rewrite how companies are fully

built? And if so, you're one of the

first to actually be doing it. Now, you

haven't hit real scale yet,

>> so we'll see how that how as time goes

on,

>> but like you're doing it,

>> right?

>> So, I don't know. It's like a it's a

question.

>> I I I Yeah, I totally agree. I think,

you know, founders do um have this

desire to want to get creative on many

things and I agree. Yeah. Like sales

comp, I've seen this play out too. And

so I think you have to figure out in

which things um the existing playbook's

going to work and you should just not re

reinvent the wheel and in which things

do you at your core feel like there's an

opportunity to do something different

and I think you should be constantly

listening for signals right so like

you're reinventing the sales comp and

let's just say all your a keep quitting

you can't none of them hit quota

whatever it is like everybody like

another startup's hiring all your top

AES

Then yeah, you got to you got to go back

to the drawing board, right? For us, I

think there's, you know, when it comes

to at the company level, I look at,

okay, do we feel like we're losing the

competition? Do we feel like we're

losing employees? Do we have high

employee retrition because we're, you

know, we're we're so we're so thin that

everybody has to do so many things like

they're they're burnt out. Do I do I see

that?

>> None of the fundamental signals to me

have said that we need to change

something. We can keep doing what we're

doing. But if they ever do, then I got

to go back and be like, "Hey, you know,

this is not working. We got to try

something different."

>> Yeah. But you know, the question that I

ask myself is how do you measure the

signal of

what if we were double our revenue count

today? Yeah.

>> But we aren't reaching that velocity

because of You don't know.

>> You don't know that answer.

>> Yeah.

>> Does that make sense? Like

>> it makes sense. Yeah. What if we're not

going fast enough because we're

artificially constraining headcount and

we could actually be a bigger company.

>> Yeah.

>> Because the market is there.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know.

>> I I I don't know either. I think for us

the risk is not worth the reward because

we're already growing fast, right? Like

if if we were like stalled then I think

it's a viable question to be like, hey,

you know, we this we're stuck like we

got to do something different. But if

you're growing fast organically, vast

majority of our users are word of mouth.

people are using the product, love the

product. Like, is is moving faster the

right thing right now? Or actually,

should we just make sure that our

customers today are super happy with it?

Continue to use the product. We build

bottoms up love. We build a brand people

love and trust, not just like, hey,

flash in the pan sort of thing. That's

more important to me. That's existential

to me. Like, I want to make sure the

foundation's right. That's where like

again, because organic growth is strong,

we have I think the luxury to kind of

take our time on other stuff. Does your

team the 50 people that are managing

whatever going on 100 million of revenue

>> that is a huge responsibility for people

>> right

>> are they screaming at you to hire or do

they like it this way

>> I wouldn't say they're screaming there's

definitely going back to painfully hire

painfully slowly there is some pain in

certain parts of the function you know

certain functions and in those in that

case we are opening headcount it's not

that we're not hiring we're just hiring

much slower than I think maybe some of

our uh peers are and uh you know you

think about like sometimes I think about

like sports analogies right like you you

have like the best teams in the world if

you have the best teams and you have the

best players guess what the best players

want a lot of playing time right they

don't want to have a huge team where

like there's a million priorities and

they get a little scrap of like what's

going on they want to own a ton and if

you're hiring a players they want to be

on the playing field we feel like we

hire we've hired eight players and they

love it they love that ownership they

don't want to delegate that to somebody

else they want to be in it. And so I

think it's just a different mentality

like yeah certainly you can succeed by

not doing that and that's just a

different way of building a team. We're

bu building this team where every single

single one of the A players wants to

play the game.

>> And as a result of that are you making

money like actually profitable?

>> Yeah we've been hyper efficient. So we

raised our series A you know back in

2024. We were cash flow positive even

before then. We have more money in the

bank than we've ever raised. We are

lifetime negative net burn. Uh and so

when we think about efficiency, yeah, we

have a lean team. We're also not

spending a lot elsewhere and allows us

to have a ton of optionality kind of

really be focused on what we think is

going to be core to our strategy and

invest in that way. We believe in

growing by investing your profits, not

having to raise a ton of money. It

doesn't mean you never raise. It just

means when you do, you're being

selective about the right partners and

uh you do it in a way that you know how

to deploy that capital. We need to be

good stewards of capital if we're going

to build an enduring business.

>> Yeah. But like if you're not investing

the millions of dollars that you're

making into headcount, where does it go?

>> Yeah. Well, I it doesn't mean we won't

invest in headcount. I think at a

certain stage things like acquisitions,

aqua hires become interesting. I think

having cash on the balance sheet is

going to help with that and we are

starting to exploit that more than we

were in the past. So those are areas

where we can now have this pool of

capital to say hey maybe we can deploy

it in different ways. It can be more

asymmetric than just shoving it into

operating expenses and maybe different

things and so I think that's where just

having the optionality helps like we can

deploy it when we need to and we are

again we will grow the team. I think

once we really start building out the go

to market team especially on like the

sales side that those are instances

where the cost will come ahead of maybe

the the revenue because you have to lay

the foundation for AEES and oftent times

those customers will come later you're

paying later and so I think those will

change some of the economics and we're

going to do that at some point that will

change the dynamic a little Yeah, it's

interesting. During the COVID Zerp days,

there was uh many of companies that were

PLG.

>> Yep.

>> Which in in so many words meant they

didn't think they needed sales. And the

reason for that is because like you know

demand was pulled forward and the spigot

was just on right

>> and everybody convinced themselves that

it was never going to turn off

>> and then it turned off or it started to

taper off

>> and then they had no sales team

>> right and they couldn't control their

own destiny as a byproduct of that

>> right I mean we are building out the

sales team yeah so I totally these are

things that

>> I think that's that's where you can

maybe get too cute is like assuming that

there is no role for for that if you're

going after a big enough market and if

you're especially if you're doing B2B

sales is inevitable right you need to

have that team and we are starting to we

have been more proumer up until now like

up until this this year and so as we

think about the next chapter you know

for us proumer will be the core growth

engine we'll add sales we'll add the

ability to go after that B2B opportunity

and that requires headcount

>> how many engineers are there ish

>> yes it's you know more than half of the

company's engineers

>> okay so like call it 25ish. That's a

lot.

>> And when you look down the barrel of

your 2-year road map,

>> is there not a temptation to say we

could make a Okay, let's just say we

could make a three-year road map, a year

and a half road map if we added 10 more

headcount.

>> Yeah.

Yeah. There

>> this is like the constant tension that I

imagine like it's like always in your

head.

>> This is a constant tension. Yeah. And

it's it's it's it's when you think about

what keeps founders up at night. Like

for me that's this is one of the

questions right it's like how quickly do

we build that team and and we are going

to grow the team I think next year will

be a critical year to to build out you

know more of the R&D the the engineering

team and I think that's be a big

investment but the question yeah what is

the number and I think that's for us to

to sort of figure out

>> yeah when you were at optimizely what

were you doing

>> uh I was head of finance there so I was

interim CFO eventually was also chief of

staff I was playing a few different

operating roles

>> and did you come through the finance

ranks

>> yeah investment banking and then started

as the first finance hire and then Yeah.

>> Okay. Like not the typical It's It's

interesting like hearing the way that

you think.

>> Yeah.

>> Like it doesn't surprise me to hear like

how judicious you are about resource

allocation is a very like finance

orientation towards company building

>> and I actually think in some ways it's

really refreshing but it's not the

archetype of so many founders that I

work with.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I I mean I feel so the thing

is I think you know we have there's

three three of us co-founders very

complimentary in skill sets and for me

yeah I come from a very different

background right like I I I studied

engineering I was a mechanical

engineering in school I did mechanical

engineering school but you know I'm not

working with our our engineers today

right and and for me I think what I

bring is like a different way of

thinking about company building product

building um and you know you you you

might assume like oh hey you know

someone from finance like the first

thing you would do is like apply budgets

to everything. And that's the exact

opposite of what we do. I don't apply

budgets to a lot of things because I

don't think that that's the right way of

uh kind of framing things because guess

what? When when I was in finance,

anytime you had a budget, people spent

the budget, right? You give someone a

budget, they're going to spend up to

that budget and then next quarter

they're going to ask you for 10% more

than the budget they had last year. For

us, if you instead focus on, okay, what

are the problems that need to be solved?

who's the best to go after, which team

needs to be working on it, and like

don't come with a budget. Let's just go

do it. Let's actually just go spend the

money on the thing. And if you have a

strategy that sounds sound, we're going

to do it. And then we'll worry about the

cost later. Of course, over time, you're

making sure you're not just burning

everything, but like you're approaching

it with like, okay, we need to figure

these different problems out. There is

no amount of budget that I'm going to

give to you that's ever going to feel

right or perfect. So, let's just not try

to overindex on that, especially at the

earliest stages. like everything is like

you're doing for the first time. Yeah.

>> And especially for a team of 50, right?

Like we're not even we're not only doing

it for the first time, we're like trying

to do it differently than maybe any

other people have in the past. So

>> that's been our mentality. And I think

that's where, you know, I think having

the finance background actually allows

me to see the world in a unique with a

unique perspective, but doesn't always

mean that you're rigid in how you

approach to solving the problem.

>> Yeah, for sure. Let me ask you a

hypothetical.

>> Yeah. Today I come to your office with

10 of the most cracked engineers in

Silicon Valley that all want to work at

Gamma. Like certified cracked.

>> Yeah.

>> The best of the best. Do you hire them?

>> If they pass their interviews, yeah,

>> you do. You would hire all 10.

>> Yeah, hire all 10.

>> Okay. So there is no like true

constraint on headcount.

>> Not for where there's going to be, you

know, for room for them to, you know, to

actually impact what we're doing. Yeah.

Would I hire 10 accountants? No. But

yeah, if you were saying engineers, we

have an infinite roadmap for things

we're going to build. There will be if

if 10 landed on our in our, you know,

front door today and they pass their

interviews.

>> Yeah, for sure.

>> I mean, that's kind of what you're

trying to do with an aqua hire, isn't

it?

>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Get get it in bulk.

Like if we have 10 people that work

together, love working together, and

they're all great. Yeah. Awesome. Let's

do it.

>> This market for talent, let's just be

specific, engineering talent

>> is like nothing I've ever seen.

>> It's insane. And like I'm not even

talking like researchers like

>> take that. Yeah.

>> Take take that aside.

>> Yeah.

>> Like just great engineers

>> is insane.

>> It's insane. It really is. Yeah.

>> It's it's hard. And I and I get it. I

mean there's so many amazing teams

working on cool things, right? Like

you're you're competing against that.

Plus, you know, the the the fang the

mega companies also are hiring. And so

from all directions, right? So if you're

great and you're talented, you have you

can choose anything you want to do. This

becomes both challenging for the company

as well as the candidate because you as

a company as a startup you want to hire

people that are are missionaries, right?

But you're competing against people that

are missionaries getting massive

mercenary checks and like how do you how

do you compete when someone can actually

have the best of both worlds

potentially? You got to find people that

actually, you know, really

missionoriented like like what you're

doing, love what you're doing, love how

you're doing it. That's hard. It's

really hard to find.

>> Yeah. Do you feel like there are things

that you did in hindsight get too cute

with where you regretted it? Like, oh, I

tried to rewrite this playbook. I

shouldn't have done that.

>> Nothing we've massively regretted. I

mean, we're are the type of company

where we are constantly testing and

iterating, right? It's it's it very much

is this strong opinions loosely held.

I'm I'm totally fine being proved wrong

about things. So, I don't think there's

ever been like a big decision where

like, hey, we we like this was just

dumb, you know, because it's it's I

don't think that's that's, you know,

it's never gotten to that. And and maybe

I'll reflect back on this tiny team

thing in like five years and be like,

actually, this is dumb. We haven't yet.

I think so. So, you know, up until this

point, it's been these decisions that

are oftentimes micro decisions that

you're trying to, you know, see if it's

right, test it out a little bit. And you

know when we think about like even the

tiny team approach you know a lot of our

early teammates especially in the

leadership role come through like a work

trial like they're in the seat first for

several months before we hire them. So

yeah, I think there's a lot of the the

the I guess what you'll see is like not

surprisingly a company that came from

optimiz experimentation kind of allows

you to kind of move fast without feeling

like you know you're making these big un

you so like one-way door decisions where

all of a sudden you can never go back

like you you know you regret it for for

the rest of you know the life of the

company.

>> Yeah, that makes sense to me when you

think about the vibes of the people in

the company. Yeah. Does the like 10

engineer headcount cross your mind of

like if we did an aqua hire today and

they were all amazing engineers because

the company is so small y

>> relatively speaking if you increase

headcount by 20% of people that you've

never worked with I bet you people

inside the company are quite protective

of the culture of gamma

>> totally

>> I imagine

>> maybe there is an inverse world where

they also start pushing back on you

saying like no no no like what we have

is special.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't want to change that.

>> It's a tough one. I think to your point

yeah it it's like what percentage of the

company you know are you trying to

absorb or change at the same time? I

think this goes back to a point of like

why for us hiring slowly for us mattered

a lot. It is the culture piece because

if you're going from, you know, 10 to 50

to 100 in a year, the culture doesn't

even have time to really set, right?

Like you don't even know what your

identity as a as is as a company and

you're introducing all this, you know,

new DNA. What you want to do is like

once the once you have this core team,

that's your DNA. You're trying to

replicate that DNA. You're trying to

bring in people that have the exact same

values and principles. But if you don't

have that set yet, it's really hard to

do that. And I that's why I worry like

these companies that maybe even

pre-product market fit are like hypers

scaling or like they're all of a sudden

they're doubling tripling size of the

team. Well, you know, a few years from

now, are you going to have a team that

even feels cohesive? Uh and I don't

think that's possible when you're trying

to grow that aggressively. 20% like at

50 now if we're adding 10, that's

probably on the the verge of like, okay,

yeah, you're right. That that's a

decision we need to take very seriously.

We probably need to spend a ton of time

with that team. It's not just passing

the interviews. is like, "Okay, let's go

uh grab, you know, dinners together.

Let's make sure like you can work in

this office and this dayto-day feels

actually like a place we want to be."

That's a big decision. And I don't, you

know, 20% is big. If it's like 5%, maybe

less so. And so I I do think there is

some range where you can't hire 50

engineers and try to absorb it all at

once. And if you're doing that, it must

be for some really important strategic

decision that you're merging at that

level. Right.

>> Yeah. a lot of my questions. I'm

incubating a company here at KP and

we're going through

>> a lot of these core questions. And one

of the things that I think I got wrong

was I had multiple pages of values that

were core to me.

>> Okay. That I thought were very important

in whatever I did next. If I ever wanted

to operate again, whatever that would

look like,

>> what would that mean?

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. And very quickly what I realized

was like uh me, two co-founders, uh

founding engineer, you sit in a room

together for seven days a week.

>> Yep.

>> And I realized like oh like I don't

actually think any of those things

matter. And the reason the reason for

that is because it is just how you

behave

>> y

>> that defines what it is%. And to your

point of like defining what it is before

you move on to the next thing, defining

what it is is like how do you all behave

together?

>> Like what is that core behavioral

cohesiveness that then is like okay we

want people that are whatever high slope

and low ego for example cuz that's how

we feel like we are. And so it you it's

so hard to like predefine any of these

things 100%

>> because so much of the company that you

build is the people that you hire and so

much of the values

>> that you try and imbue are through those

people. Yeah.

>> Like through how you actually act every

day. Yeah.

>> And then you can decide what those

things are. And

>> this this is what we did. I mean so I I

we didn't come in with predefined

values. Uh what we did was you know the

first seven of us and eventually 12 you

know we we we're in Slack a lot people

there's like a shout outs channel and so

like anytime like someone does something

amazing you know you know they can give

someone else a shout out on the team um

and then what I would do is I I'd start

just writing down what people were

praising other people for like what are

the things of like oh this is you did an

awesome job this is exactly what you did

and I observe people's behaviors in

general like what is something that you

know Jess as an engineer like what does

she do that was special that I'd be

like, "Oh, if I could have another Jess,

this is this would be great, right?" I'd

write that down. And then I had this

sort of notebook of all the things that

people did, all the behaviors that

people did, and I started crafting our

culture deck. And I turned all those

behaviors in a set of values, and then I

shared that with a team, and I said,

"Which of these feel authentic?" And we

continue to iterate on that together.

And that formed the the first version of

the culture deck. The culture deck is a

living deck. Every time we have a new

batch of new hires, I go through it. We

ask questions about like what are things

that we appreciate about, you know, how

we operate and I edit it. And so like

once a year at least, if not more often,

we're going in and we're revising it.

We're edit adding to it. And that's the

way we try to like stay true to a living

thing that to your point is is actually

the people you hire. Hopefully the

foundation is solid so that you're not

like constantly rewriting the whole

thing, right? But that first set is

really observing the people around the

room and trying to articulate what are

the values they bring to the table.

>> I think it's really well said. And you

waited to do that deck until 12 people.

>> Yeah, probably about two years in.

>> Yeah.

>> Like one and a one and a half, two years

in. So we had already gone through some

craziness as a company as every early

stage company probably does like just

trying to build, trying to find product

market fit, being in the idea maze. So

you go through some stuff and you feel

like, okay, things are starting to

click. Then you start writing some

things down and you start sharing it,

start talking about as a company. I

don't think you ever want to do it too

prematurely because it nothing else

matters in the beginning until you hit

product market fit, right? Like as a

company, you're not a company until

you've reached that point. You're just a

group of people working on something,

maybe you have money in the bank, but

once you feel like you're a company,

then yeah, I think having a culture is

great. And then once you start

recruiting, you better have something

you can point to or even if it's in your

head where you're like, I can replicate

the DNA now. I know what I'm looking

for.

>> Yeah. How long were you in the idea maze

for?

>> H I mean two plus years, you know. Come

on.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so

>> with how many you and your two

co-founders?

>> No. No. So, so um when we raised our

preede round, you know, this is end of

2020, you know, over the next few

months, we added a few more people. So,

we were about seven people and we really

started kind of building the very

beginning of gamma. And what we actually

did was instead of just build I

mentioned gamma as kind of like a modern

alternative to PowerPoint. So we we felt

like okay one opportunity you this is

pandemic too like one opportunity is

like okay we're going to change how

people present and share their ideas.

The other opportunity was like we we

want to explore was actually what if we

created a virtual office uh because so

much of our work now is hybrid. There's

people distributed. We our vision all

along was like we wanted to change how

people communicate but we actually

thought saw both of these as interesting

opportunities. Presentations as a space

that needs to be reimagined virtual

office as a replacement for the physical

office. And so we actually worked on

both ideas in parallel for 6 months and

we dog fooded both simultaneously for 6

months. At the end of the six months

we're like okay which product are we

going to dedicate 100% of our time to?

It was kind of like an AB test, but it

wasn't driven by any sort of hard

numbers. It was okay. We saw on one hand

this virtual office that was ultimately

competing against in real life working

together which we would never be able to

surpass. Like there was an inherent like

wall like no matter how much we built a

better virtual office, it couldn't be

better than being next to your teammates

enjoying work together, collaborating in

real life. So like okay there's an

inherent cap there with the

presentations idea we had an infinite

number of things that were like we can

make this better. PowerPoint is stuck in

this rigid format. It is not the most

expressive tool. Vast majority of the

people know PowerPoint but suck at it.

There's so much more we could do there.

So we end up going all in. But this is

after six months of parallel pathing

both. It wasn't like we actually knew

for sure. We're like actually we have we

know our ambition but let's give both a

shot. So then we started working on this

and that's like okay that's great. So we

we did that for a bit but then you're

like you you start building this thing

and you get some early users many of

them are your friends telling hey this

is an interesting thing and then you go

look at the data they don't come back to

using the product you're like okay well

not good enough let's keep iterating we

keep iterating all the way until August

of 2022

uh so again this is you know a couple

years in now we were like okay we're

going to do our first launch we're going

to launch on product time we're going to

launch our public beta right so no

longer will it be like a wait list or

private we're going to launch our public

beta and we launched our own product on

and actually did really well. We got

product of the day, product of the week,

product of the month. See the surge in

usage and and signups and you feel kind

of good about yourself and then the new

signups start plateauing or they start

going down and it's like, okay, you're

still getting new signups, but you have

not earned word of mouth. People are not

telling other people. You're not you do

not have organic virality. So you can

keep on creating new startups or you're

never going to have sort of exponential

growth, right? And so we at that point

we knew, okay, there's some interesting

building blocks here that we've done,

but is this standalone? We we are not

going to succeed as a business if this

is just continues to be be the case.

There is no amount of like incremental

improvements we're going to do to turn

us into a company that has product

market fit. That's the moment where we

went, let's go back to the drawing

board. Three month sprint of engineering

AI into the entire creation flow,

relaunching our AI launch in March of

2023. And that's where things that was

the inflection point. All of a sudden,

it took us like 8 months to get to

60,000 signups, and then the day we

launched, we got like 5,000 signups,

then like 10,000 signups a day, then

like 20,000 signups a day, then like

50,000 signups a day. And none of that

was marketing. It was all word of mouth,

people using the product. And that's the

moment you know, okay, we have something

here that can just continue to grow

organically without us even touching

anything else.

>> That's insane. When people go through

the idea maze for a long time, there's a

natural sense of skepticism that emerges

because of course, like

>> you've been trying to find product

market fit for a while.

>> Yeah.

>> When you saw the first day of signups,

were you like, nah, too good to be true?

>> Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, the first

month you're just like, oh, come on.

Like, what what is this? This is like no

way. And you keep checking the

dashboards, of course, every like five

seconds. You're like, "Yeah, okay. Well,

maybe we're on to something. This is

like, okay, you know, this is" But yeah,

you're so paranoid. You're so paranoid.

>> Did the team stick with you? Did

everybody on the team stick with you all

the way through?

>> Yeah, all the way through.

>> That's amazing.

>> Yeah. I mean, it really feels like, you

know, within the first couple years, we

So, going back to that, even just that

specific moment of time, right? like two

weeks before our AI launch and this was

you know this was sort of a bet the

company moment like we this had to

succeed SVB collapse happened uh all of

our money most of our money was in

Silicon was with Silicon Valley banks

was like I had to call a team meeting

and and this is going back to like the

the the the you know fun part of being

at the stage was we're in the

two-bedroom converted two-bedroom

apartment so I had to call everybody

into one of the bedrooms and uh we're

like okay well you Well, everyone's

reading the news. SVB, you know, our

money is totally at risk and we had to

decide, you know, are we going to stay

heads down? We had the launch date

already set like 3 months in advance or

we're going to stick to this launch date

or we're going to be like, oh, let's try

to figure things out. We'll push this

out a little bit. And basically, we had

the moment, like, okay, we're we're

sticking to the launch date. You know, I

don't know how we're going to make

payroll, but I will find a way. Like, I

don't know if we're you know, we're

going to talk to our investors. We're

going to figure something out, and we're

not changing the launch date. I think

those are the moments where everyone can

see like we are all in this together.

The level of resilience and trust you

build and moments like that you know you

can't you can't really manufacture it

just happens and through that I was just

like I just I'd never seen a team work

harder. We got through the launch and it

was just like massive feeling of this is

super rewarding you know like we are uh

doing something that is special. We are

doing something together and it was

literally all hands on deck to make it

happen.

>> It's insane. I'm very happy for you.

Like it's just awesome.

>> Appreciate it.

>> There is a I guess now viral tweet that

you had about basically all the VC

advice that sucks.

>> Is that fair to is it fair to

characterize it like that?

>> I would say it's that uh a lot of people

take uh maybe interpret certain VC

advice the wrong way. And it's not that

>> By the way, I also think a lot of VC

advice sucks. So you don't have to you

don't have to play koi with me.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so there there

let's just say there is a lot of bad

advice and uh Yeah.

>> There's a list that you made. Yeah.

>> Can we go through it together? Do you

remember your like do you remember your

top hits?

>> Oh man. Uh there's there's so much I

mean a lot of it is predicated on

>> Well, so I even just go with like the

foundational stuff, right? Which is when

you think just going back to product

market fit. Um most people rush this

thing of if you don't have strong word

of mouth in your product like don't

don't move on to the next stage of

scaling. Like you you need to be so

patient in that part of it and be honest

with yourself. Is this a product that

has a chance of growing organically and

that is the tailwind you need to do

everything else. If you have that

everything else becomes easier. You know

you cannot fool yourself into thinking

like hey you know we we have like okay

you know uh distribution and like people

are using it and it's super churny but

we'll incrementally figure it out. Like

no don't do that. Don't worry about

anything else. until you have strong

word of mouth. And if I could just tell

people one thing, like that's that's the

thing like yeah, YC trope is is

absolutely accurate. Build something

people want because that's like the

foundation. Then once you have that as a

foundation, I always think about

strategy is like then you can actually

build a great business around that,

right? Like strategy is building the

business around a product people love.

If you don't have that first piece and

you've tricked yourself into thinking of

that first piece, everything else is

just a waste of time in my my opinion.

It's a waste of time. is a waste of

money. So do that first and once you

have that then you can think about all

the things that matters like okay what

type of team do I need to build

>> to go after this opportunity and that is

for you to answer like I think you can

be a much smaller team if you have

strong word of mouth growth and uh and

so that's where I do think we've

benefited from things that are already

organically working well we can be super

deliberate about which teams we hire for

and how we hire for them this is where

you set the super high bar for we only

have A+ players right or a players was

like you cannot lower the bar in hiring.

The mantra of hiring paying fully slowly

even when we felt like we hit product

market fit. I didn't open 50 headcount.

We didn't open any headcount. We stuck

with the roles that were already open

and we incrementally added from there

and we asked the team where are we

feeling the most pain and then we

started doing it. And like oftentimes

the pain was maybe stuff that wasn't

even on the engineering side. It was

stuff that I was trying to figure out on

the marketing side. And before I hire a

marketing team, I need to know how hard

this thing is. Right? Like I've never

done growth marketing at any level of

scale. So let me try doing the job. Let

me see what it takes like. Let me know

what great looks like before I try to

hire the first growth marketer. And so I

did that for like 6 to 12 months before

we even entertain opening that role. And

was it easy? No. Was it uh painful?

Absolutely. But did I learn a lot? Yes.

I went from zero to one in terms of

knowledge over that 6 to 12 months doing

everything myself. All the talking to

creators, all the working with agencies,

all the thinking about like what is the

right you know way to tell Gamma story

and I think that's what's you know it

was what was needed. I could have

delegated that to somebody for sure like

people told me like okay you should stop

doing this thing. I could have done that

but I don't think that would have been

the right way for us to have approached

it. I don't think anybody would have

cared as much about building a brand and

the way we interact with customers the

way that I could have cared about it.

>> Yeah. But if you're not doing if you're

let's just say if you choose to do

growth marketing, what are you not

doing?

>> I'm delegating the rest of the like

product and you know the the development

side to my two co-founders.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. So I'm leaning on them heavily.

Yeah.

>> I'm not going to be in the weeds on

every you know product roadmap

prioritization. Like that's that's my

co-founder John. I'm not going to be in

the weeds on looking at our AWS bill,

our AI bills. Like that's gonna be

co-founder James. I'm gonna be spending

a ton of time with our existing

customers. So, we have like a separate

Slack workspace for what we call the

Gambassadors, our power users. I live in

G or live on our Gambassador Slack. I'm

talking to them on a daily basis. I'm

spending a ton of time with creators

talking to them, jumping on Zoom calls,

meeting them in person, and I'm thinking

a ton about our brand and like how do we

want to tell our story?

>> What else? What else is on that list of

shitty advice?

>> Um, so I mean the rest of it all is all

around like you know scaling and hiring

and so like who do you hire? Uh, you

know,

>> what is the advice that you get and what

do you disagree with?

>> I think the advice you get is like as

soon as you hit product market fit, you

blitz scale this thing, right? It's hire

as fast as you can. Go after the market.

Don't squander it. And um, and I think

there's there's definitely yeah, you

don't want to squander it and you should

be super paranoid. You should take

hiring super seriously. And so I think

that's important but it doesn't mean you

have to double triple the size of your

team you know in a year. So I think

that's stuff that you just you as a

founder you need to care deeply about

and then it goes back to if if you

whatever your hiring strategy is

>> you know can you maintain that Alevel

bar I I think if you're trying to hire

100 people like like founders should be

honest with themselves like they they

say they want to hire a a players can

you do that if you're hiring 100 people

like is that possible? uh we still

interview every founders still interview

every single person coming through the

door. So like we keep that bar high,

there's been t plenty of like talented

people that we don't let through the

door because maybe they don't pass the

culture interview. And so like when we

think about rais keeping that bar high

for us, it's only been possible because

we haven't been trying to hire 100

people in a few months, you know. So

those are things that I think it can be

hard to quantify but can really

dramatically change the nature of the

company. Um when I think about the types

of you know managers or like leadership

we've hired we've hired this this what

we call like the player coach like going

back to like sports analogy is like you

know certain sports like football they

they move super fast and so you know the

co it's hard for the coach to always get

the players in the right position or

call the right play right so you have

roles like the linebacker that's

essentially a player coach where if the

coach can't actually see what's

happening linebacker can make some call

adjustments on the field and that

happens if the play happens so fast. You

know, the best linebackers can do that

really, really well. We have something

in Gamma where most of our management is

a player coach. They are able to do the

job themselves. Oftent times, if for

instance, if you're an engineering team,

you're still shipping code, but then you

can also coach and mentor those around

you. Uh, and especially within this AI

era, you can also help define like which

AI tools the team might be using or

should be using. Uh, so I think that

allows you to be much closer to the

work. But that's only really possible

when again you have this sort of flat

team, flat organization, and you don't

have inherently a ton of layers that

you're trying to, you know, fit into

that structure.

>> In our top uh, eight portfolio companies

>> across five key functions, what whatever

it is, sales, marketing, finance,

>> engineering, product, let's just say.

>> Yeah. um uh 38 out of 40 maybe 39 out of

40 of those executives that run that

function are reporting to the CEO for

the first time. This is in our top

companies.

>> Oh wow.

>> And that's a cool stat.

>> And if you listen to maybe the ramp the

ramp CEO Yeah. Or if you listen to what

Pedro did at Brex where he basically

removed three layers between him and the

director and they made the director his

CTO and they did that across the company

and or the ramp uh Eric says at RAMP

like basically he got so many executive

hires wrong that he's like I'm just not

going to hire executives anymore. I'm

just going to promote from within. My

point is there seems to be this really

hard opposite reaction to the like an

experienced leader. I don't know how

else to say that. Like like we went so

far in one direction of like the you

know John Door days where you know

Google hires a CEO and like the founder

should not be the leader to now so many

folks are actually doing the opposite

where they're like experience is

overrated.

>> I just care about their taste in the

work and the function. I will promote

them and hope that they become leaders.

It's an interesting like hard opposite

reaction to what it used to be.

>> Yeah. I mean I I think so just to unpack

some of that I do think I don't think

experience is overrated but I do think

maybe management experience might be

overrated like you don't need to be 10

years manager to be a great manager. You

don't need to have 10 years of

management experience to to be a great

manager. Um but you do need to know how

to do the job. I think like anybody

that's managing a team like they should

be able to go deep on any, you know,

variety of topics and be able to really

serve that, you know, coach or

mentorship ability to like really step

in and see that team. And so, but some

people are just, you know, I think if if

you have a flat or and again more of a

player coach style model where someone's

still doing the work, then it's

inherently much easier. They're still

close to it. They don't need to guess

what other teammates are doing. they're

seeing it and then they can actually

make sort of I guess that's where like

the the the management and the advice

you're giving maybe doesn't fall on deaf

ears because it's coming from somebody

that you respect and you're seeing in

the trenches. I think that model, at

least for us, fits well. And I I think

to your point, yeah, like maybe we had

swung the pendulum too far the other

way, which is like you bring in someone

that is just there to be the people

manager and they happen to have the

rolodex where they can hire all their,

you know, people they've worked with

before and that assuming that's just

going to work by, you know, copy and

pasting. I think that that era probably

is over.

>> Yeah. But isn't it tempting to hire like

some I'm just making up an example CTO

or VP of engineering

>> that has all of these engineers like

that knows the top 10 cracked engineers

that they can bring with them. Like

isn't that where the temptation really

lies?

>> It is. It is. And I I think that's still

something worthy of exploring like if

that person really still felt like they

they fit well then yeah maybe that is

the right you know the right hire. Yeah.

>> Um but yeah it's it's obvious of

oftentimes obviously there there it's

not black and white. there's going to be

a set of things you're looking at and

you're just trying to make the best

decision, you know, on the spot there.

>> On the work trial question or the thing

that you brought up about a like most

people do a work trial for a couple

months for a lot of people.

>> Yeah.

>> If you're a talented engineer working at

Meta or something or I don't know,

OpenAI, I don't know, pick your company,

making a lot of money.

>> Why? I understand why you want a work

trial.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> You want to see what does it feel like

to spend a couple months with them. They

also probably want to see what does it

feel like to spend a couple months with

you. But in order to do that, I'm pretty

sure they have to leave their other job.

>> Totally. Yeah. It it rarely works, I

think, for a lot of these sort of IC

roles. And frankly, even with us, we got

lucky with timing on certain things.

People were maybe in between roles and

so we could say, "Hey, why don't we we

don't know exactly what role you'll

play. Let's let's let's have you in this

role and and then over time we'll see

what fits best." And so I I would say

it's it's something you should explore.

By by no means can it be every single

hire. I think not enough people assume

that's even an option, right? Like most

people just assume it's higher or

nothing. And I think oftentimes, yeah,

that that may not be the case. And if

you can, especially for like management

level roles or people that could be

running a team, that's a pretty

important, you know, that's like a

important function. If you can, if you

have the luxury of doing a work trial,

do a work trial.

>> What percentage of your work trials do

you think have converted to full-time?

>> All.

>> All of them.

>> Yeah.

And I think part of it is like obviously

we set a high bar for the work trial.

The other is like if you're in the seat

and and like assuming you set the high

bar then it's like you're helping define

the role to a certain extent too, right?

If it is collaborative

>> uh then then it should feel like hey

this this is something we can work out

and I think most of the people we even

entertain the work trial with are people

that are very open-minded to like doing

things a different way. like I'm very

transparent with like you know the

player coach model like the way we

operate operate lean team tiny team and

so I think people are opting into that

knowing that there's a certain level of

of uncertainty I think by nature of that

there maybe it's almost like a

self-fulfilling prophecy is like okay

you know they're going to make it work

because they they've they know what

they're stepping into.

>> Mhm. Do you not get caught up in like so

you've raised what an A seed and an A

>> seed and an A. Yeah.

>> Seed and an A. If it's not already

happening, which I know it is, if it's

not already happening, after this, you

will have more series B investors

knocking down your door than you know

what to do with,

>> right?

>> And it's very weird in Silicon Valley

when you're a great company like Gamma

is.

>> What ends up happening is like it's very

seductive to go into the venture

ecosystem. You meet all the fancy

partners, they take you on the dinners,

on the boats, on the things, all the

things. all the things.

>> And it's nice. Like they're nice things.

And by the way, they're just gassing you

up the whole time.

>> Yeah.

>> And they're telling you like, and by the

way, not for nothing, but it feels good

because like you're you want every inch

of validation that you can get because

you've been to like tooth and nail

clawing to get to this point. Totally.

So like, of course, like it's human

nature to like enjoy hearing that other

people think that your baby is as

beautiful as you do.

>> Yeah. They may or may not believe it for

what it's worth, but at least they're

going to say it to you and they're going

to do all the nice things. Like you have

really resisted that game quite

effectively.

>> Yeah.

>> But do you agree that that seduction is

there?

>> Absolutely. I I think this is the

challenge I think for a lot of um maybe

first-time founders or earlier founders

and and you know just their career in

general is like those all feel great.

those they they they they build up your

ego and they feel really really good and

it's not like they're trying to

necessarily be, you know, doing anything

malicious. That's just the way things

work, right? And I think when you're

early in your career or just early in

like just figuring things out, you may

not even know what you want. You may not

even know what your definition of

success is. And for us, it's it's

different, right? like I'm doing this

because this is what I want to be my

life's work and this is what I want to

be building for as long as I possibly

can. And when I think about success and

what's rewarding to me, I have two

little ones at home. When I get to work

on something and my son is sitting on my

lap and he's playing with Gamma with me

and we're making like a comic book or

something, that in my mind is like

winning. That's success because I am

enjoying that moment. For me, when I

first learned PowerPoint, like my eyes

lit up because like, "Oh man, I'm

creating something out of nothing." And

I'm seeing that same light in his eyes

doing that with Gamma, that's amazing.

Like that is winning. And so, like, I

want to do that for as long as possible.

If I felt like raising a mega round or

like taking all this cash would help us

get us faster there or like help us

guarantee that destination, like yeah,

maybe I would do it, but I don't think

that's ever been the case. And I think,

you know, founders need to ask

themselves, is more money in the bank

going to really help you build an

enduring business?

>> Yeah. With the way that money is flying

around in the valley right now and how

crazy valuations are,

>> you could get a stupid valuation and

take a lot less dilution.

>> Yeah.

>> Like we're playing musical chairs and

the music is going to stop at some

point. I don't know when. Nobody knows.

Could be in a year. It could be in 5

years. It could be in a day. It doesn't

matter, right? Like we don't know. But

when it is this when there's this much

money and this much demand, is it not

tempting to be like, "All right, would I

sleep better at night knowing that if I

put 50 million in the bank?"

>> Yeah.

>> With relatively little dilution

relatively.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Is there not a temptation there?

>> There definitely is. And that's the

that's the calculation you're trying to

do, right? But is it 50 or is it like

500 million? Like Yeah. I think by

default a lot of founders will assume

let's just take the most money at the

max valuation and I'll worry about the

rest later. I think worrying about the

rest later is just a recipe for

disaster. So, like, yeah, taking the 50,

that probably is a smart move and that

could be the smart move and you should

ask yourself, is that the right number,

but if you're always maximizing, if

you're always going to this like, I'm

going to maximize everything. I think

that's the slippery slope because you

can, to your point, you can always go

for a higher valuation. If if it's

competitive, someone else is going to

bid it up. If you want to run it like an

auction, you can. And then you're going

to be left with, you know, hundreds of

millions in the bank. And like, what are

you going to do with it? I think that

the the consequences for first-time

founders are ones that are hard to

calculate. You have 500 million in the

bank. What do you do building your

business? What do your employees think

when you have that much money? What are

you using it for? Oftentimes they use it

to go hire the 500 people immediately.

Uh and so the temptation flips from

taking the money to spending the money.

And when you start spending the money,

you can spend it on so many different

things and you can instantly lose focus

and you can instantly lose the desire to

like build and uh and you have to be

honest with yourself like is that going

to be helpful or hurtful for for where

you are as a company and I I I I think

more founders should just be patient and

thinking about or like just trying to

answer that for themselves.

>> Were your kids born uh post Gamma being

born?

>> Uh daughter was born right before Gamma

was born and son is a little bit older.

Yeah. So he's three years at the uh

>> how um going back to like where the

conversation started about like how hard

you and your team are working.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you do you feel guilt ever? Like

do you like how do you balance the

responsibility that you feel as a CEO?

>> Yeah.

>> Which you know it's like a pie eating

contest. The reward for it is more pie.

Uh uh versus you know like being that.

>> Yeah. It's it's a tough one. I mean, I I

try to spend as much time as I can with

them, right? And I think with that just

means there's sacrifices. You're not

doing a whole lot of other things. You

don't have fun hobbies. You have uh hang

out with kids, which is great and is

rewarding, but you you give up a lot of

other things. And I think that's worth

it for me. Going back to what you think

success is, like if you feel like you're

you're on that path, then yeah, you shed

everything else that's not allowing you

to succeed in your own definition of

success, right? Do you have to do

anything intentionally with your partner

kids

>> so that the pi eating contest doesn't go

in perpetuity like that you can create

some space

>> to a certain extent I feel lucky I mean

my wife works from home so she you know

she has she has she is able to work

remotely and that means like way less

pressure for me to have to do like

pickups or like drop off. Like I think

you're we just trying our best to like

fit this, you know, infinitely complex

puzzle into the right places where we

live really close to my parents. So

like, you know, having grandparents

around, you know, they're retired, they

can help with the kids, that also helps.

Like you got to like figure out what can

you do, what's in your control to

optimize for the things you matter that

matter to you. And yeah, it changes like

when you know my daughter was just born

like it was actually pretty tough. She

when she was one years old, she when she

turned one, she caught this super rare

disease. And that throws you into a

whole different spiral, right? Like

obviously your priorities as a parent

change as a as a human change. And so

you're trying to navigate that. And so,

you know, what startups have taught me

is like you just got to be adaptable.

You know, like every year, every day is

going to be different. You shouldn't

assume it's going to be the same. And if

you have that mindset, then at least you

know you're going to be anticipating

change and just trying to go with it. Do

you ever feel guilty?

>> Guilty? Yeah. Do you ever feel guilty?

>> No.

>> Guilty that you're not being enough of a

husband, father or CEO?

>> I don't. I mean, I feel like I do give

it my all. And I think I think, you

know, for for me, it's been even before

starting the company, you know, you have

to have conversation like sitting down

with my wife is like, are we getting

into this? This is not my decision. It's

the decision we have together, right?

Like I cannot do this without your

support. And and when I mentioned it,

she's like 100% you should do it, right?

Like there's no there's no hesitation.

And if she's giving me that support,

then I can do everything I need to do to

make sure Gamma's successful. If there

was resistance there or hesitation, then

they then then there's a conversation,

right? Then you have to be like, okay,

am I giving up the right things here?

Maybe I should just go get, you know,

another job instead. Um, but you start

with open and honest conversations. And

if you have a partner or whoever else is

involved in those decisions, you got to

have that well ahead of ever even

thinking about fundraising. Like we had

those conversations uh basically as soon

as uh the last startup I was at was

acquired and that was you know eight or

nine months before we even tried to

raise money. Like you got to have those

conversations first and then raise money

later. Like if you're not having that

first and obviously it's the the wrong

sequencing.

>> Yeah. I did the same. That was the

starting block before anything.

>> Starting block.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Like are we going to do

this?

>> Yeah. Uh, and I think her reaction was,

"Yes, we are." But even if I said no,

would that change how you feel? Okay.

All right. You know, they kind of know

what

>> you don't have to worry about.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That all makes sense

to me. Let's just say when the kids have

a recital

and you have a deliverable, what do you

do?

>> It's a good question. Um, well,

oftentimes the deliverable is probably

something I've set as the deadline,

right? And so, uh, what will typically

happen is I'll go to the recital or

right now, you know, my kids, uh, my

son's in a lot of soccer, so I'll go

watch a soccer game and I'll just stay

up late to make sure I hit the

deliverable, right? If it's due the next

day, I stay up as late as possible or is

needed to get it done. And that's, you

know, that that is that is literally the

the dayto-day, week to week, that that

is uh what I'm what I'm going through.

>> Yeah. And when you go to the soccer game

>> Yeah.

Like honest honestly,

can you actually watch the soccer game

like or is your mind going crazy?

>> It's literally like anytime there's a

timeout or something, I'm checking my

phone. But when my son is playing 100%

all in also like super competitive, so

like when I'm watching them play, I like

it's like my brain just switches to

different gear. Like I have to for

better or worse, I'm just like locked in

and probably screaming too loud and all

those things. But uh but yeah, I think

it is you're you're it's like you know

switch on like okay work and then switch

off like you're you're kind of doing

you're bouncing back and forth

>> but when he's not on the field you're

like forget that.

>> I'm usually Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah.

His teammates probably aren't the

biggest fans of me. It's just like okay

well I got to check this Slack. I I got

to respond to this thing. So

>> I appreciate you doing this man. I like

I was just like I was really excited to

do this with you. I appreciate it.

>> I find you unique and distinct in the

valley and it's refreshing and I'm

excited to

>> I'm just excited to see like how these

decisions play out. Yeah.

>> I'm like fascinated.

>> Thanks, man. Yeah. I mean, I feel like

um if anything, you know, this is one of

the things where if I can give anything

back to the next sort of wave of

founders is like, you know, play your

own game. You're doing something that's

incredibly hard. Every step of the way,

you'll be getting good advice and bad

advice. you kind of got to learn to to

kind of figure it out yourself and uh

and then yeah if you know when it comes

back to I always think about you know

your luck surface areas is really just

two things it's it has two dimensions

right it has people and has time

surround yourself with amazing people

people give you energy share the same

values hopefully the same ambition and

then give yourself enough time to win

that's the basics if you can do that

well I feel like a lot of people can

succeed

>> oh it's really well said I close with

the same questions the first are Are you

hiring?

>> We are hiring. Check out our careers

page, gamma.app. We definitely are

hiring.

>> When you hear the word grit, what do you

think of?

>> Um, I think of my my my parents,

honestly. Uh, you know, determination

coming here with no money in the bank,

starting, you know, trying to build a a

life where, you know, their family could

could, you know, have a better life than

them. And I I honestly I just I just

picture my mom.

>> It's amazing. Thank you, man.

>> Thanks. Thank you for having me.

That's it for now. If you like the

episode, please leave us a review or go

back into the archives where we've done

more than 200 episodes with some

fantastic folks. This podcast is a

Kleiner Perkins production and I'm

Juven. Thanks for listening.

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